About this episode
Mark Leonard discusses the implications of a broken rules-based order and how policymakers should respond.
If the rules-based order is broken, what comes next? And who will lead it? Mark Leonard argues in his new book, Surviving Chaos: Geopolitics When the Rules Fail, that the coming system will be “un-order,” governed not by China or the United States but by no one at all. Are states responding quickly enough? Leonard, who is the director of the European Council on Foreign Relations, joins FP Live’s Ravi Agrawal to explore how policymakers should adjust. Hal Brands: Three Scenarios for a Post-Trump World Stephen M. Walt: Chinese Hegemony Might Be Happening James Palmer: China Doesn’t Always Win When the U.S. Loses Michael Hirsch: After the Nation-State Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
People in this episode
Host: Ravi Agrawal
Guest: Mark Leonard
Topics covered
- geopolitics
- rules-based order
- international relations
- chaos
- policymaking
Keywords
- geopolitics
- rules-based order
- chaos
- international relations
- Mark Leonard
Mentioned in this episode
Organizations: European Council on Foreign Relations
Books & works: Surviving Chaos: Geopolitics When the Rules Fail
More episodes of Foreign Policy Live
- The Geopolitics of the World Cup · June 10, 2026 · 39 min
- How to End the Iran War · June 5, 2026 · 42 min
- Trump, Xi, and a New Balance of Power · May 19, 2026 · 48 min
- Is Russia the Unintended Winner of Trump’s Iran War? · May 12, 2026 · 38 min
- The surprisingly normal streets of Tehran · May 8, 2026 · 32 min
- ‘Ask Me Anything’—the Iran War Edition · May 5, 2026 · 41 min
Explore listener stats, chart rankings, contacts and more on the Foreign Policy Live podcast page.