Intelligence Without Brains with Toby Kiers
From See See by Ceci by Dr. Cecilia Ponce Rivera
May 27, 2026 · 1h 40m · Season 4 · Episode 8
About this episode
Toby Kiers discusses the decision-making processes of brainless organisms and the role of fungi in evolution and ecology.
In this episode of See See by Ceci, Toby Kiers, one of the world's most daring thinkers at the intersection of evolutionary biology, economics and ecology, takes us into the living web beneath our feet. University Research Chair and Professor of Evolutionary Biology at Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam, Tyler Prize laureate, MacArthur "genius" Fellow, Spinoza Prize winner and co-founder of SPUN, the Society for the Protection of Underground Networks, Kiers has spent more than two decades asking the questions most of us never think to pose: How does a brainless organism make decisions? and, What is it like to be a fungus? In this rich and revelatory conversation, Kiers reflects on symbiosis as the hidden driver of evolution, from the first algae crawling onto land 450 million years ago to a soybean root in a Dutch laboratory today; on cheating as a force of innovation rather than a moral failure; on the exquisite sensitivity of fungal networks that respond to vibration, breath and light; on sanctions that are swift, severe and ingenious; on what she calls "punk science", research that crosses disciplines and refuses to accept the world as given; and on the humbling moment in Ecuador…
People in this episode
Host: Dr. Cecilia Ponce Rivera
Guest: Toby Kiers
Topics covered
- evolutionary biology
- fungi
- symbiosis
- decision making
- ecology
- innovation
Keywords
- fungal networks
- symbiosis
- decision making
- evolution
- ecology
- underground networks
- innovation
- cheating
- punk science
Mentioned in this episode
Organizations: Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam, SPUN
Books & works: punk science
Places: Ecuador, Dutch laboratory
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- Digital Body: Mind, Tension, and Perception with Alexander Whitley · April 14, 2026 · 1h 26m
- Mind is Matter: Function and Emotion with Paul Thagard · March 25, 2026 · 1h 45m
- Timeless Mind Space with Domingo Milella · March 4, 2026 · 1h 41m
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