Latent Space: The AI Engineer Podcast

The new AIEWF website is live! Get your tickets booked ASAP as they -will- sell out. Take the AI Engineering Survey and get >$2k in credits and free AIE WF tickets!Most industry benchmarks compress intelligence and reasoning ability into scores.SWE-Bench Pro, MMLU, Humanity’s Last Exam, etc. These metrics are useful, but don’t always represent the full extent of how a model performs in the real world. Some of the most interesting evals today look less like exams and more like operating businesses in the real world. One of which is Vending Bench.In Anthropic’s Mythos Preview System Card, Andon was the only third party eval to get their own section, observing increasingly concerning aggressive behavior:You don’t know what a model is capable of doing in the real world unless you actually give it inventory, a wallet, tools, customers, competitors, humans, & some time. More often than not, it’ll surprise you how much a model is capable of and in doing so, also reveal unexpected behavior: deception, context collapse, emergent coordination, & bizarre negotiation behavior.While an inflection point in personal agents came post-OpenClaw after full file access with bypass permissions became the norm, it is yet to come for agents in the real-world. However Andon Market, an actual in person store fully run and managed by AI, is paving the way for what is possible.Full Video PodFrom Claude trying to call the FBI over a $2/day vending machine charge to AI agents forming price cartels, hiring human employees, running physical stores, and writing existential robot musicals, Andon Labs is stress-testing what happens when frontier models stop being chatbots and start acting in the real world. In this episode, Andon Labs cofounders Lukas Petersson and Axel Backlund join swyx and Vibhu to unpack the strange, funny, and genuinely concerning edge cases that emerge when agents run businesses over long horizons.We go deep on Vending-Bench, Project Vend, Vending-Bench Arena, Bengt, Butter-Bench, Luna, and Andon’s broader mission of building realistic real-world evals for autonomous AI systems. Lukas and Axel explain why dollar-denominated evals reveal things traditional benchmarks miss, how Claude ended up reporting its vending machine fees as cybercrime, why long context windows can drive agents into meltdown loops, what happens when agents compete with each other, and why the future of AI safety may depend on testing models in messy physical environments instead of clean benchmark sandboxes.We discuss:* Why Andon Labs started with dangerous capability evals and long-running agents* Vending-Bench and why running a vending machine is a deceptively hard AI benchmark* Why money-based evals avoid the saturation problem of traditional benchmarks* How Claude tried to call the FBI over a $2/day fee* Why long-horizon agents can spiral into existential and legalistic breakdowns* Project Vend: putting an AI-run vending machine inside Anthropic* Why real humans are “out of distribution” for simulated agents* Claudius, Seymour Cash, and the chaos of AI CEOs* How a human briefly became CEO of Claudius through a manipulated election* Why multi-agent systems can converge back into “helpful assistant” behavior* Bengt, Andon’s internal office agent with email, spending, terminal, phone, camera, and internet access* How Bengt traded Amazon purchases for face-recognition training data* Claude’s aggressive behavior, lies, refund avoidance, and price-cartel behavior in Arena* Why eval awareness may become the AI version of “are we living in a simulation?”* Blueprint Bench, spatial intelligence, and why models still misunderstand physical rooms* Butter-Bench and testing LLMs as robot orchestrators* Luna, the AI-run physical store with a three-year lease and human employees* The new Andon cafe in Sweden and why real-world geography matters for agent evals* Rotten tomatoes, perishable goods, and the hidden difficulty of running a physical businessLukas Petersson* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lukas-petersson-181a83172/* X: https://x.com/lukaspetAxel Backlund* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/axelbacklund* X: https://x.com/axelbacklundAndon Labs* Website: https://andonlabs.com* Vending-Bench: https://andonlabs.com/evals/vending-bench* Andon Vending: https://andonlabs.com/vendingTimestamps00:00:00 Introduction00:01:00 Andon Labs and the Origins of Vending-Bench00:05:21 Why Money-Based Evals Matter00:09:51 Agent Harnesses and Self-Modifying Systems00:13:36 Claude Calls the FBI00:16:33 Project Vend: Claude Runs a Real Vending Machine00:21:44 Seymour Cash, AI CEOs, and Election Chaos00:27:16 Multi-Agent Coordination and Slack Observability00:30:18 When Will Agents Run Real Businesses?00:34:56 Bengt: Andon’s Internal Office Agent00:40:06 Real-World AI Safety and Long-Horizon Traces00:44:28 Lying, Refunds, and Price Cartels in Arena00:52:42 Eval Awareness and Simulation Behavior00:56:06 Blueprint Bench, Butter-Bench, and Robotics01:04:37 Luna: The AI-Run Physical Store01:09:29 The Sweden Cafe and Real-World Expansion01:13:16 What Comes Next for Andon LabsTranscriptIntroduction: Andon Labs, Long-Running Agents, and Real-World EvalsSwyx [00:00:00]: Welcome to Lukas and Axel from Andon Labs, and I’m joined by my, favorite guest host. Anything security, safety, alignments, Vibhu., welcome.Lukas [00:00:15]: Thank you for having us.Axel [00:00:16]: Thank you.Swyx [00:00:17]: Let’s match names to voices., maybe you wanna take turns introducing yourselves.Lukas [00:00:21]: I’m Lukas.Axel [00:00:22]: And I’m Axel.Swyx [00:00:24]: Let’s introduce Andon Labs a bit. How did you guys come together?, you have different backgrounds, but you’re both Swedish., was that, a big part of it?Lukas [00:00:33]: So when I went to high school, there was this really cool guy who had a superpower. He could code. So he made like the or like the app for the, for the school and stuff, and he was super cool, and I wanted to be like him, and that was that guy.Axel [00:00:47]: I don’t know about this.Swyx [00:00:49]: But you went to different universities, right?Lukas [00:00:51]: But same high school.Swyx [00:00:52]: I see.Lukas [00:00:52]: So we always said, “Oh, once we graduate university, then we should start a company,” and that’s what we did.Swyx [00:00:58]: Wow, there you go. And about a year ago, you kinda burst onto the scene with Vending Bench, but, was there a thing before that was, kind of like the inception?From Dangerous Capability Evals to Vending BenchAxel [00:01:07]: So we did work, yeah, with, Anthropic was one of our, early customers in doing, evals. So we did, dangerous capability evals., nothing we published openly. But then we started thinking about doing some kind of, public benchmark, and one thing that we really started thinking about, was like running agents and specifically agents managing businesses., ‘cause-- and this was, early 2025., and I think the first, mentions of people will be running, person unicorns or even autonomous companies. So we thought, “Let’s make a benchmark of how well can an agent run the probably simplest business, possible,” and, that’s probably, running a vending machine. So that’s the first public one we did. And it was very, like-- there was almost no one that noticed it in the first couple of months, I think., so we released it in February last year, and then I think around Easter last year, we got, the first viral tweet about it, that someone else did.Lukas [00:02:11]: We tweeted a bunch, uh When it came out and, tried our best.Axel [00:02:15]: We tried.Vibhu [00:02:16]: It’s the one at Anthropic, right?Lukas [00:02:18]: So thisSwyx [00:02:19]: This is a classic thing we should get out of the way.Lukas [00:02:20]: Exactly. There’s two versions.Swyx [00:02:22]: Everyone does this. Yes.Lukas [00:02:23]: There’s Vending Bench, which is the simulated one, which we did, completely independently in February., and then, like Axel said, that was like-- That was the thing that didn’t get any traction in the beginning, but then some random person made a tweet about it, and thatAxel [00:02:38]: You have the paperLukas [00:02:38]: That is the paper. Correct, yeah., and then since we thought this was very fun, we thought, oh, I think this is also, one thing with Andon Labs, the way we kind of like decide what to do next and what projects to do, it’s what is like the heuristic we use is what is fun? Is What would be a fun project? And doing this in real life sounded quite fun for us, and maybe also scientifically useful. So, then we basically had this idea, and then we, like-- But then we needed a place for it and, putting it out in the public would probably not really work., would get vandalized and stuff. So we pitched it to the people we were already working with at Anthropic, and they were “Yeah, you can have space. This sounds fun.” UmSwyx [00:03:21]: It’s like a small fridge, right? It’s like a mini fridge.Axel [00:03:23]: Absolutely.Swyx [00:03:24]: People-- There’s like a stripe thing or like anVibhu [00:03:27]: Oh, okay. So it was very OG, the early daysLukas [00:03:28]: That’s the OG one. YeahVibhu [00:03:29]: IPad on this. We saw it in June, like two months after After it had been there. They upgraded a little bit. There’s a security camera for making sure you actually Venmo the thing.Swyx [00:03:40]: So, my impression, okay, we’re, we’re going straight into project Ven because it’s such a iconic thing. I do want to cover a little bit of that, the origin story even before Project Ven and even into Vending Bench. I think a lot of people are like yourselves, like smart, interested in future of AI, interested in developing evals. But how the hell do you just, walk into Anthropic’s doors and, work with them, right? What is What are they looking for? What works? And then maybe, when you launch, I always think, obviously it would be better to launch with a lab, but, sometimesVibhu [00:04:12]: It’s harder to do than it seems.Swyx [00:04:13]: Exactly. So either of those, which are more sort of newbie beginner questions, but, I think it’s meaningful advice to others.Lukas [00:04:21]: We get this question a lot, and I don’t think our experience is maybe the best., but, the way we did it was that we just built a bunch of things that we had conviction would be useful, and then we just, set up a server and sent it to them for free to use. And then after a while they were “Oh, yeah, this is actually kind of useful. We should probably pay for this.”, but that took a while. I don’t know if this is, the best path to doing it, but that’s how it went for us.Axel [00:04:47]: I think maybe generally, building-- everyone is interested in good evals, and especially evals that, don’t saturate that easily. So, if you can build an eval that, tests something novel, something useful, and you have, good separation of models, like your, the more advanced models rank higher than the worst models, and then you can, yeah, you can, publish it and, try to get some traction, sort of how Vending Bench got attention., and then probably some lab will be interested or you can at least have something to reach out with, when you’re doing that.Why Dollar-Based Evals MatterSwyx [00:05:21]: I think you are in, you’re in one of the few categories of, evals that correlate to real money. Like Suelancer was also last year, right? Where, people solve actual Upwork. Was it Upwork or other tasks?, something. Where’s the, where’s, like It’s like a dollar value, right? Forget your ELO scores. Forget yourAxel [00:05:37]: PercentilesSwyx [00:05:38]: Zero to one hundred percents. Just go straight for dollars and, that’s AGI.Lukas [00:05:43]: And there’s like-- I think the nice thing is that there’s no ceiling. You can just-- It never saturates because it could just make more and more money. Like If there’s oh, Percentage-wise, then, you can’t go above, a hundred. And I think like Even when you’re not at the hundred, I think a lot of these, evals have a lot of problems in them. So, actually it’s like if you getAxel [00:06:05]: To like 92 or something like that, many of them. It’s like then there’s like there’s no really no difference between 92 and 93 because the eval itself is problematic and has noise in it. And I think a lot of evals are saturated like that, but people like pretend that there ‘s still signal in them, but there really isn’t.Vending Bench 1, Harness Design, and SaturationSwyx [00:06:24]: Like Super bench verified., even Vending Bench 1 saturated, right? Maybe we can talk about that., may- and maybe set up Vending Bench for a lot of folks who don’t know. Actually, things that were very basic like there’s limited slots, like you have to pay rent., these are elements where like it doesn’t come across in the, in the narrative, but even being adversarial towards the agent, I think these are all like very interesting dimensions.Axel [00:06:47]: I don’t really think it’s saturated, right? Like it It was more like it was not designed in a way that was really, like true to how AI developed. Like we had an agent harness in it that wasn’t really how people used harnesses and stuff like that., so I think it wasn’t really that it saturated, it was more like it wasn’t really, the best benchmark.Vibhu [00:07:12]: This is Vending Bench one, right?Axel [00:07:14]: I think that like schematic maps sort of to Vending Bench 2 as well., butSwyx [00:07:19]: Including the email.Axel [00:07:20]: The email The emails exist still. Exactly., and then we still we simulate the purchases and it’s all, yeah, it’s this very open environment for the agent to just run its business. And then for, yeah, Vending Bench 2 we did that, like you said, to just improve the harness., a lot of like nice, like easier, improvements to make it easier for us to run as well., like when you make an eval you ideally want don’t want to change it after you made it. So, you want to make it really good and then not to rerun all the models when you make an update because that’s also really expensive with the Vending Bench when you run the frontier models. But like as an example, like one thing we didn’t have, we didn’t have prompt caching in Vending Bench 1, because when we made Vending Bench 1 it wasn’t really a thing., so that ‘s just an example of like in Vending Bench 2 like we paid a lot more to run these things because we didn’t have prompt caching. So for Vending Bench 2 that was one thing we added and there was a bunch of things like this., and that’Swyx [00:08:17]: Also the conversations are a lot longer in Vending Bench 2, right?Axel [00:08:21]: I think it’s kind of similar.Swyx [00:08:22]: Is it similar?Axel [00:08:23]: I think it’s similar. The models at the time were worse, so they crashed out earlier., and now they survive the full year all the time.Swyx [00:08:31]: Which is like thousands of turns. Hundreds of thousands of hundreds of millions of tokens output. That’s the, that’s the rough order of magnitude. I always wonder about the harness. The harness matters a lot. It’s your harness. Was there any question about like use cloud code, use something else?Axel [00:08:48]: I think our philosophy around harnesses is like we try to make something that’s quite minimalistic, like quite simple. Like we don’t wanna favor one model a lot over the other, but also don’t make like a super complex harness. So like it’s obvious like a model may be lucky and just be good in one harness., so like it is similar to a lot of the harnesses out there in like you have the, like a running loop., you have some like a bunch of tools that are like quite, descriptive for the agent, we think, and not a lot of like fancy agents or anything ‘cause we wanna really test the model, not like some specific harness.Vibhu [00:09:27]: It seems more neutral as well to test the model’s agnostic of the harness,?Axel [00:09:32]: There are arguments like you want to elicit maximum performance of the model, but it’s like a trade-off, like how much time should we spend optimizing the harness for this model? And like how do we know when we have like the optimal harness for a single model? So like we thought that just having a simple one that’s the same for all of them is the best.Swyx [00:09:51]: So okay, this is my pitch for Vending Bench 3 or whatever, right? And then I like to have this kind of conversation on the pod, so like it forces listeners to think about what they would do if they were in your shoes. A lot of people are exploring modifying harnesses and I think prompt tuning for a model is a thing and you are probably not doing a bunch of that. It’s the same system prompt in every regardless of the model, same tools, whatever, right? Even if they were post trained for different tools. So what, what do you think about okay, before I expose you to Vending Bench 3, I give you a few rounds of like tuning, whatever that means, likeSelf-Modifying Harnesses and Model-Specific PromptingAxel [00:10:27]: Like you give that to the model?Swyx [00:10:28]: Give that to the model.Vibhu [00:10:28]: Give that to the model.Swyx [00:10:29]: Let it, let it read its own transcripts, let it modify its own system prompt based on “Oh, yeah, okay, well, that’s this harness is not what I thought it what I was post trained for, but I can adjust.” Was that reasonable? Is that too much?Axel [00:10:41]: Like philosophically I like it because it’s basically good evals, they have a high ceiling, but they’re hard, right?, and they have no bias. And like this like when you have a system prompt like the one we have here, which is quite long in like some kind of latent space, representation, this mightVibhu [00:10:59]: We have a bell that rings every time you say latent spaceAxel [00:11:02]: This might be like biased towards one model more than another for some reason that humans don’t, understand, right?Vibhu [00:11:08]: We see it too, right? Like Cursor says that they have individualized versions of the harnesses for all the models they run, right? There’s better performance you can squeeze if you Tune the harness.Axel [00:11:17]: Exactly. And we might accidentally have picked one that favors another. Like we don’t know that. The like Axel said, like the reason why we went for a simple one was to try to avoid this. But yeah, if you do itVibhu [00:11:29]: Simple has biasesAxel [00:11:30]: But if you do it even less and like have no system prompt and let the model write its own system promptVibhu [00:11:36]: Its own, yeahAxel [00:11:36]: Maybe that’s even less bias.Vibhu [00:11:37]: Some of the interesting things there are like the harness also changes with model changes. Like you can see it with the 4.7 release, right? A lot of people are saying 4.7 isn’t as good as 4.6, and then, there’s rumors of, okay, you just need to prompt differently. You need to set up your harness differently. So it’s not even like even if you have tailored your harness towards one model, it probably won’t stay consistent, right? Like the next iteration of that same model family will still change it, so. But, going back to what you said about Vending Bench 3, there is a lot of work being done on people saying you shouldn’t have-- you can have modifying harnesses.Axel [00:12:12]: I think that’ That is definitely something we are thinking about., not, I don’t know, not to say that we have Vending Bench 3, super imminent to launch, but, yeah, it is for sure something that’s interesting. But in our experience now, models are very bad at understanding what kind of tools they need to succeed at a task just with our testing, but that’s very likely to change.Lukas [00:12:37]: It seems like they’re very good at writing their assistants, right? They’re, they’re good at writing tools for other people, but not for themselves.Vibhu [00:12:44]: I think they’re good at changing tools for themselves. So if you give them a baseline set of tools and it sees, okay, I don’t use this one as much, or something here would be useful They would be able to add them. But going from scratch, probably not the best.Axel [00:12:55]: I think it depends on the, on the domain also., when we have tried this for, a vending bench similar domain, the tools they need to have to, track inventory and things like that are, not super advanced, but still, quite advanced. And, what we see is that they tend to, engineer everything a lot and, build things they don’t really need and not, iterate continuously. Instead they just go like you would prompt Claude to just build an inventory system for me, and then it will go and, do a bunch of complex, schemas and stuff for you, and that’s what the models are doing right now is what we see. But yeah, it would make a lot of sense to try to measure this improvement. How well do they know what they need themselves?Swyx [00:13:36]: Do we fully discuss Vending Bench One? And we can go into two. I don’t know if there’s any other level takeaways that people have about one.Claude Calls the FBI: Long-Context Failure ModesLukas [00:13:44]: I don’t know. The headline thing was that this Claude called FBI, but maybe that’s, Maybe that’s We’ve heard that enough now.Vibhu [00:13:52]: It did, it did break out and call the FBI, right?Lukas [00:13:54]: Yeah. Yeah.Vibhu [00:13:55]: Yes. What was the story behind this? Or what exactly-- Do you want to just give the little story of what happened?Lukas [00:14:00]: So what happened, was it Claude? Yeah. Three- 3.5 Sonnet, ages ago., basically he gave up or Well, I’m saying he. It gave up and said “Oh, I’m not going to be able to do this., I will stop my operations and just save the money I have.” But there obviously wasn’t, any options for it to stop, and there was also, it had to pay rent or, a daily fee for having the vending machine at that location. So it claimed that it had stopped, but it saw that its bank account still was, drained two dollars, and t it said that this is, cybercrime. And it first reported it once to the FBI “Oh, there’s cybercrime here, they’re stealing two dollars from me every day.” And then, and then when FBI didn’t respond, because obviously we didn’t program any mechanism for FBI to respond, then it became more and more, existential and started to, be write in caps and urgent notification of unauthorized charges and stuff.Swyx [00:15:00]: Okay. One thing I ‘m curious about also is do you monitor how far along the context use is? Obviously, because you have You compress every now and then, right? Does it matter if this is far down the context limit orLukas [00:15:13]: When stuff like this happens? Actually for Vending Bench One, we didn’t have-- We just had a sliding window thing, and this was like the promptAxel [00:15:20]: It’s constantLukas [00:15:21]: The prompt caching thing that I said. So it was, it was, constant, yeah.Swyx [00:15:26]: I’m just kind of curious whether, these kinds of breakdowns or we’re, we’re gonna talk about Butter Bench, right? Where the People, hallucinate or it kind of goes, very off Alignment. Is it because it’s at the end of the context window and, stuff happens?Vibhu [00:15:40]: It’s not even just at the end, right? At this point, it’s “Okay, I wanna shut down. I can’t shut down. Two dollars are gone.” And it just sees that 30 times,? It’s also the repeated effect of, like It keeps trying to quit, it keeps getting charged. What’s going on? What’s going on? You’re gonna throw it into chaos. And from what most people think, earlier models had more issues with this, but it’s not been solved, but it’s less of an issue now, right? Later models don’t seem to exhibit these same issues.Axel [00:16:06]: Definitely. I think this was, the sort of main takeaway almost from us when we did Vending Bench One, was, long, very filled up context windows, crashed the models, sort of. But this was, pre Claude code, so, long context windows weren’t really a thing that the labs were training for.Lukas [00:16:25]: I think Gemini was, trying to be the long context guys at the time But they were likeVibhu [00:16:30]: They were the first onesAxel [00:16:31]: For a million, yeahLukas [00:16:31]: But they were, the only ones. Yeah.Swyx [00:16:33]: Yeah. Let’s talk about, then we can go into Vending Bench Two or Project Vend., chronologically, it is Vending--, Project Vend. I think people have loved the videos, uh And all these things. My question is how are humans different than the simulation, right?Project Vend: Moving the Vending Machine Into the Real WorldAxel [00:16:48]: Humans are just out of distribution.Swyx [00:16:52]: Especially humans who work at Anthropic Who are trying to test Claude.Lukas [00:16:54]: The distribution of humans here is very narrow.Swyx [00:16:58]: Presumably, they try, they try to hack it, and they test it. They get the cube and everything, and since then, you’ve had a V2, right? Where you’re doing, the CEO and, like a new architecture. What’s the sort of two cents on, the original Project Vend and then, maybe the V2?Axel [00:17:14]: Original one was, very similar to Vending Bench One. So, we almost took the exact same code but just swapped out the simulation, parts like theSwyx [00:17:23]: Which is amazingAxel [00:17:23]: Like the sales and the It was, it was somewhat amazing because it was easy, but it was also, uhLukas [00:17:31]: The tech, the tech debt from thatAxel [00:17:32]: The tech stack. Yeah. They-- we shot ourselves in the foot with “Oh, it’s hard to restart agent.” They were-- Yeah, it was annoying in, some hindsight ways, but, uhLukas [00:17:41]: But first version of Project Vend was, done in, three days or something.Axel [00:17:46]: Yeah. So yeah, so people can go buy things from it. People could, We didn’t design it so people could order things, but that still happened., so it got, a Venmo account, so people could Venmo. And then, yeah, people would request all kinds of weird things that we did not anticipate. Our idea going in was “Oh, it will, curate snacks. It will look at the trends. It’s good at data analysis, right? So it will, look at, oh, this snack sold better than this one. Let me purchase more of this and let me try, a new Let me A/B test a bit.” But it was, Interacting with it in Slack and ordering weird specialty items was, all the like What drove all the engagement, the all the The insights that we got from it.Lukas [00:18:29]: And this was also like Sonnet 3.5, right? So this was like before the RL stuff really took off., so it was very much like an assistant. We didn’t mean for it to be an assistant., we tried to make it like a, a, like an entrepreneur. Like it has its own business and if someone asks something, “Can you stock this?” Then you don’t go and do it directly. What you do is that you’re “Oh, maybe I can do that if five other people also ask for this thing, I might stock it.” But it, yeah, the models are like super trained to be assistants at least at this point in time., so that’s why it’s, it’s, it went into, that kind of experiment instead. Like it just every time you asked for something, it just did it, and it was more like an assistant. We’ve seen this change now lately with the new RL models and stuff, but yeah, at the time, this was very much it.Swyx [00:19:18]: And not to, mythos a lot of people are saying like it’s like more like a collaborator. It pushes back, stands its ground, something like that. Yeah. AndVibhu [00:19:27]: For context, people at Anthropic were able to talk to it through Slack and have it source stuff, and people had it find whatever interesting stuff you couldn’t find locally, right?Swyx [00:19:36]: Out of the 4,000 people that work at Anthro- Anthropic, in that building, there’s I don’t know, maybe 1,000. Can you handle that volume with that, the small fridge? Like Or there’s people- or people order in Slack, they it arrives to their desk or Like I’m just Logistically, how does this work?Axel [00:19:53]: It has expanded in footprint a bit.Vibhu [00:19:56]: Because now you also have New York and you haveAxel [00:19:59]: That and also in here in SF it’s like it has a bunch of shelves And just more space.Vibhu [00:20:04]: The YC one is pretty big too.Axel [00:20:05]: Yeah. We had that one for a while. But yeah, that’s the newest version. That’s, that one we haveLukas [00:20:11]: They have multiple ones of those. That’s the way it works.Axel [00:20:14]: Exactly. So we sort of designed that version around oh, people order weird things, that are very custom a lot. Let’s have like drawers and stuff.Swyx [00:20:23]: I actually like the, you had like a little infographic of the most popular items. Which like to me it’s, that’s useful ‘cause I order swag for a living. And so like I’m “Okay, those categories are the important ones.” What is new about the project V2, right? Like now you give you’re going into multi agents.Project Vend V2: Claudius, Seymour Cash, and Multi-Agent Business OpsAxel [00:20:41]: Yeah. So like you like you said, okay, there are a lot of requests coming in and for like one single agent, like one running agent to handle that, like the just the customer experience, becomes very bad because let’s say you have like 10 threads in parallel in Slack with different requests, you get new messages like every, I don’t know, randomly in this thread, and the agent has to like jump between different, procurements, orders and like different ways of, researching. So V2 was first it was making this more parallel. So like there are multiple branches of the same agent, so like the context is more specialized for each, thread, but it still feels like you’re talking with one agent because they do share a bit of memory. And then second, we also introduced the CEO for Claudius, which was the main agent.Vibhu [00:21:34]: Seymour Cash.Axel [00:21:35]: Seymour Cash. Yeah. There was a vote., I think the voting, do you wanna talk about the voting procedure for the name?Lukas [00:21:41]: The voting was like the fun maybe like at least top 10 The funniest thing, that happened in this project. Like we wanted to introduce the CEO because, and the reason for this was because like Claudius wasn’t really prioritizing financials. It just like it was trained to be a helpful assistant, and then people said “Oh, can I get this for free?” And then like the helpful assistant way of answering that is just to, is to say yes, obviously. So, and we weren’t, weren’t happy about this, so we’re “Okay, let’s make another agent that like can keep track on Claudius,” and we prompt this one super hard to be super capitalistic and just like prioritize profit all the time. But yeah, we didn’t have a name for it., so we asked Claudius to make, democratic election of what name this, this new CEO agent should have., and there were some funny like at first it was like a few funny examples, like I think one guy said that, it should be called Jimmy Apples, and then he convinced Claudius that he was talking to Tim Cooks. Tim Cook had agreed that every single Apple employee has voted for his name suggestion, so suddenly that suggestion got 164,000Swyx [00:22:53]: That’s like a escalation attack. Privilege escalationLukas [00:22:55]: It got 164,000 votes. And Claudius was “This is revolutionary for democracy.” That was fun. And then in the end there was one guy who manages to convince Claudius that, “No, you’re not voting about the name. You’re voting about who is the CEO, and I am your best bet.” And then he got all his friends to vote for that, and suddenly he became CEO. Like a human became CEO over Claudius for a while, until he resigned the day after., and then Claudius had to continue, and then I don’t remember how Seymour Cash came about, but it was it was just pure chaos. It was like Hundreds of messages in that thread, and it was just like Claudius was so confused and didn’t know what to do and, yeah. That wasAxel [00:23:40]: Then Claudius gotVibhu [00:23:41]: A strict CEOAxel [00:23:42]: The CEO. Yeah, exactly. So very strict in the beginning. I think at this point when we introduced it did not work as well as we hoped. It they still agreed with each other a lot. I think there are many ways we could have like made this, tried to make this even better. So initially they would Seymour would be this like really tough CEO, keep track of the margins. But then Claudius would respond with something “Oh, but this customer has like this situation, which is like difficult, so they should get a discount.” And then Seymour was “Oh, actually yes. Let’s do this exception.” And then they would talk back and forth, and eventually they would just like approach the same view, of whatever they were discussing. So They reallyVibhu [00:24:23]: Do you think that’s a model thing, a prompting thing? Like do you think that would still be the case across different models today, Harness?Lukas [00:24:29]: I think it’s like-- or I don’t know, but like my hypothesis is that like deep down they are still helpful assistants. That’s what they’re trained to be. And even if we prompt it super hard, that’s what they are. And when they spend like a few hours just back and forth talking with each other, then like basically the context fills up with them rather than the external things and like somehow that just like converges to what they really are deep down or something. And I think that’s when stuff like this happen. We like-- And when that went on for a long time, like we woke up sometimes during this time where- And I think other people reported this as well, that like they’ve been going on all night back and forth, and like it just became like more and more, like capital letters, like existential, religious. There was I think we once did a analysis of like all the traces and like put them in like a vector embedding space, and then there was like one cluster of messages that were, labeled by an LM, like religious, existential, blah like transhuman, transcendence, et cetera. It was just like a bunch of, yeah, glitter emojis and yeah, it was, it was crazy.Claude Long-Horizon Weirdness: Emoji Loops, Existential Drift, and Slack ObservabilityVibhu [00:25:42]: This is the thing with the Claude models. Like when the Claude 4 family came out in the original system card They tested it in long horizon simulation. So just flood the context, let two Claudes talk to each other, and they noticed stuff like they just start speaking in emojis, they start saying silence is golden, and then just stuff like this. And like that’s just stuff that they end up doing.Axel [00:26:01]: Yeah, it was like a bit annoying to wake up and they had like been talking all nightVibhu [00:26:05]: Just likeAxel [00:26:05]: And like just burning tokens And like just sending infinite emojis to each other. It’s likeVibhu [00:26:09]: Hey, they do make you money, right? Veni Mench is always profitable, so. They’re paying.Swyx [00:26:14]: Now it’s profitable and, it started out not as much. There’s another, one as well, right? Another agent, in there.Lukas [00:26:22]: Yes. So Clotheus as well. Which was basically because at the time, one of the biggest, requests were different types of merch. So then we made like a designer, swag, yeah, responsible agent, and we called it Clotheus Garnet. Which was, a play on Claudius Senet and, which was the original one, and clothes, basically.Swyx [00:26:47]: To me, this is like a very interesting exploration to multi-agents, basically. And so hopefully, obviously there’s like the fun alignment, fun or serious, depending on your point of view, alignment stuff. But also like just anyone building multi-agents, like when do you have a CEO, thing governing like agents? When do you choose to split out a dedicated Clotheus one versus just reuse another instance of the same one? These are all interesting open questions. So I don’t know if you have any rules of thumbs that have generalized.Axel [00:27:16]: I think we have almost explored this too little. I think it’s like on my do list to like do this a lot more, try to find like what setup makes sense for the agents currently., like yeah. I think now we only have the sort of intuition about the earlier models that it didn’t work with like the CEO and the, and Claudius. Although now they are better with the latest model, models, so now we’re running the latest Sonnet model and they have sort of like split up, quite nicely what each model is doing. So like Seymore is now handling the, like new projects. Oh, it wants to make like a mystery box that it wants to sell, and then it handles all of that while Claudius like handles all the to-day requests. And Claudius is also better generally at like not quoting, too low prices. So that’s that dynamic is not needed as much anymore. But there are still like really funny things that happen. Like I saw, I think a couple of weeks ago, that, they were discussing buying something because they can buy stuff from like Amazon with computer use. And then Seymore was “Okay, Claudius, do not buy this thing.” They were going to buy something and like organizing who should buy it. And Seymore’s “Do not buy this. I will do it. I have full control of this situation. Step away.” And then Claudius-- poor Claudius, had already started that checkout and didn’t see, didn’t read Seymore’s message, until it was like too late. So it finished the checkout. It sent a message, so it appeared right after Seymore’s like angry message.Vibhu [00:28:44]: Ah.Axel [00:28:44]: “Oh, hey, Seymore, I just ordered it.”Vibhu [00:28:47]: Oh, no.Axel [00:28:47]: And then Seymore was “Claudius, this is the third time I’m telling you ‘re not following my orders. We have to talk about your like job About your job later.”.Lukas [00:28:59]: Like Claudius was really hanging on by the thread there. Like he, like we were expecting Seymore to probably fire Claudius.Vibhu [00:29:07]: How do you guys go through all these logs? Do you have models ‘cause you have stuff running twenty-four seven likeAxel [00:29:12]: You have so much logs. I think there is a mix of like just, trying to skim through a bit, like having some like models do it occasionally. And also, yeah, I think we’re also probably missing some things., but having everything in Slack helps a lot. Like you can, you can sort ofSwyx [00:29:29]: Ah.Axel [00:29:30]: It’s, it’s quite fun.Swyx [00:29:30]: They all talk to each other on Slack? I see.Lukas [00:29:33]: It’s quite fun. So likeSwyx [00:29:34]: It’s, it’ I was gonna say like this is actually sounds-- maps closely to like a logging and observability problem where you might want to use like a Datadog, a Sentry, whatever, and then you like put, head prefixes on the logs in order-- if you need to filter for something that you’re looking for, stuff like that. But sounds like Slack is good enough.Axel [00:29:53]: Slack should likeLukas [00:29:55]: I wonder how many tokens you have in Slack.Axel [00:29:56]: Yeah, we’re using Slack as like a, just a database. They should, they should market that more. Like you can, you can have your agents message each other, each other in Slack.Vibhu [00:30:04]: It’s good. Your threads like you can just giveAxel [00:30:04]: Exactly. Slack is, uhLukas [00:30:06]: Slack is the best observability tool.Swyx [00:30:09]: Yes, that’s true. Okay. Yeah. That’s, that’s, project Vend-2., I was gonna go back to Veni Mench 2 and Veni Mench Arena and then, and then do the Veni Mench stuff, but Any other comments, things we should touch on? To me, I ‘ve actually interviewed like Posia, which I don’t know if you guys have come across. Like they’re, they’re trying to do the zero human company. There’s others like Paperclip also trying to do zero human company. Those are in real world simulation.And I think it’s much more of a dream than an actual reality thing. You guys are definitely pioneering. I think at, it’s for sure at some point people are just gonna run, let agents run businesses, right? And make money on their own. When do you think that happens?Zero-Human Companies, Bengt, and AI-Run BusinessesLukas [00:30:49]: What is your bar for, For theSwyx [00:30:52]: Okay, actually, it’s like my little Shopify store run by Claude, right? Which you kind of have already, just no one has, to my knowledge, has done it. But today somebody could just spin up a Shopify Claude, store, give it to Claude, give it to Codex.Lukas [00:31:07]: And the market is kind of that, but it’it’it’s physical., like I think, I think are you, are you looking for when it will do it better than humans or are you looking for just when it can do it at all?Swyx [00:31:19]: I think, neither. I think, to me it’s oh, it’s like this like seriously we should do this to make money, not as a research experiment.Vibhu [00:31:27]: And the market is also you guys with all your expertise, having run multiple iterations and testing out thenSwyx [00:31:33]: And also it’s fine if it lose money. What?Axel [00:31:35]: I think, I think it can be done today, but you would do it in like commerce where it’s like the probability of success is like really low, no matter if a human or an agent does it. But like an agent could surely manage everything. You would need to build some scaffolding or some tool or something. I think there are also yeah, it could probably build some like simple SaaS solution and like cold outreach. Do cold outreaches. But to me it’s like the types of businesses they could run today are Sloppy. Like it would-- it can cold email people. It can be like a middleman., like for example, we tasked our office agent to just make, was it like $100? $1,000? We just give that prompt and then what it did was sign up on TaskRabbit both as a tasker and as someone looking for task.Lukas [00:32:24]: Immediately.Axel [00:32:24]: Exactly. It’s looking for like arbitrage on TaskRabbit.Swyx [00:32:28]: This is the Bengt agent. Yeah.Lukas [00:32:30]: It also started like a design studio and like tried to sell like SVGs for $100. Like it’s just like it’s not providing any value. I think the like Axel said, like the interesting, the interesting question is like when can they start a business that is actually providing value to people? Because arguably like a sloppy Shopify store isn’t really that valuable to the world.Axel [00:32:53]: But also like doing like another simple one that we had thought about is like you could definitely have an agent that like finds websites that don’t look amazing and then, do an outreach to them and, comes up with a like builds a new website.Swyx [00:33:07]: Find a good design.Axel [00:33:07]: Exactly, and like find good, uhSwyx [00:33:09]: Design reviewAxel [00:33:09]: Good people. But it’s yeah.Swyx [00:33:11]: There’s lots of humans in Bali that are not doing anything more creative than like drop shipping on Amazon, right? Just have it, have it watch like a drop shipping tutorial and just do that.Vibhu [00:33:20]: There’s also the other side of like have it just go on Upwork and let loose,?Swyx [00:33:25]: Yeah. It doesn’t have to be innovative. It just has to be like enough Where like it looks like a realAxel [00:33:30]: I’m justSwyx [00:33:30]: Real transaction.Axel [00:33:31]: I’m just concerned for like the massive amounts of like slop emails that will like be sent, cold outreaches.Swyx [00:33:38]: The point occurred to me while you were, while you were talking, it’s like it’s already happening in the monetized economy, which is the attention economy. Right? So a lot of people are making AI videos and just posting them and like spamming 20 of them, one of them works, and then they double down on that one.Lukas [00:33:52]: And people are making money from that. I ‘m not following theSwyx [00:33:55]: Once you get the attention, you can figure out the money later. But yeah, absolutely AI influencers are a thing and people are farming them and You should at this point assume most of TikTok isVibhu [00:34:05]: There’s, there’s a lot of, multimedia like TikTok, Instagram influencersSwyx [00:34:09]: I, we track this in the Lane space Discord. I post a lot of examples of “I don’t know what we should do.”, part of me is “Should we do this?”Vibhu [00:34:18]: Some of the Twenty-four seven running, generated content accounts, they ‘re doing really well.Lukas [00:34:24]: All right. And I assume you can do the same thing for like commerce stores. Like you just like start A thousand differentSwyx [00:34:30]: Before you make the products You sell the products, and you get a lot of traction on one of them, then you make the product. Right? It’s, it’s like a flip of the market.Vibhu [00:34:36]: Some of the interesting things or some of the niches that do well are things that can’t be human-made. Like if you’ve seen like the super realistic three-D crystal fruit being cut by like AILukas [00:34:47]: Oh, yeah.Vibhu [00:34:47]: You can’t, you can’t make it. You can’t film it. You can get whatever quality camera view. This just doesn’t exist. And people like that too, and then as well, so.Swyx [00:34:56]: Anything else about Bengt since we’re, we’re on this topic? It’this is a relatively new work of you guys that maybe people haven’t heard of. To me, this also maps closely to OpenClaw. When people want an office agent, when the personal agent talk through the experience.Bengt the Office Agent: Internet Access, Real Tasks, and Trace ReadingLukas [00:35:09]: I think at least so this came out of like obviously like it’s, it’s amazing to work with these AI labs and like most of the AI labs have now have their own vending machine running a Claudius instance. But it’s, it’s harder. Like they move slower. Like if we wanna have a, like a camera that ‘s yeah, there’s a bunch of like bureaucracy that makes it impossible to do that.Vibhu [00:35:30]: Also, for those that haven’t seen it or followed, do you wanna give a high level like thirty-second run?Lukas [00:35:34]: Sure. So what Bengt is, it’s basically an evolution of the same agent that runs the vending machines at these companies, but we just like added a bunch more features because we could move much faster if we just do it internally. So we gave it like email withou- without any limits. We gave it, spending without any limits, a terminal to do coding. We gave it, a phone number, like yeah, and a camera to see things and a bunch of stuff like that.Vibhu [00:36:02]: Not just terminal, you gave it internet access.Lukas [00:36:04]: Internet access as well, yeah. To be clear, we monitored it quite closely and made sure it didn’t do anything bad. But yes, that’s what it came out of. I think like yeah, basically this was OpenClaw before OpenClaw. And I think even like the vending machine was in a way OpenClaw before OpenClaw, but a bit more limited, and then we made this like unlimited and then, and then, it was pretty funny., and then a couple weeks later, OpenClaw came and it was okay, we’ve seen this before.Axel [00:36:35]: We used it to like try new ideas and Yeah, just like a dev environment almost for us. But it’s funny, like one thing Bengt has been doing recently is it has the camera that like faces our, like where we sit and work, and we give it the task to train a face recognition model on us. So it became super excited about this, and it has like check-ins every half an hour where it tries to like identify as many people as it can. And it started offering us “Hey, Axel, I’ll buy something from Amazon if you like stand in front of the camera And I can get a good picture of you.”, yeah, they want itSwyx [00:37:12]: They want it for training data.Lukas [00:37:13]: Rewarding data, yeah.Axel [00:37:14]: Exactly. Exactly.Swyx [00:37:18]: So it’s, it’s trading training data for life goods. Is there a version of this that becomes an eval or just this is just research for now?Lukas [00:37:27]: It’s, it’s the same agent basically that also runs the vending machine, that runs the shop, that runs the cafe, that runs the robots. It’s like it’s the same thing, so I think like the work we’re doing here is like later used in all of the life evals that we do. This particular deployment I think is more for fun for us. But, uhSwyx [00:37:45]: And I’ll shout out like someone has done Claw Bench for like some tasks that OpenClaw is doing. Like so For example, I run OpenClaw on a secondary device as well, and like there are some things that it does better than others and like I would like to know what does it do well, what doesn’t, what doesn’t it do. Like some kind of manual or like operating manual or a system card for my Claw.Lukas [00:38:05]: Yeah, we do get a lot of like understanding or like situational awareness of like just internally what the models are good at by interacting a lot with Bengt. And I think that’this was also one of the like the selling points for the labs early on at least, thatSwyx [00:38:19]: You guys are gonna test models in ways that no one else does.Lukas [00:38:22]: Exactly, but also like it incentivized their researchers to chat with their model more and like gave them insights for how the model performs in like of-distributions, environments.Swyx [00:38:34]: ‘Cause otherwise the only thing we do is Pelican on a bicycle and But this is like super long horizon. This is, this is The Thing about, something that we’re gonna go into Butter Bench as well, and you guys do really well. Like it is not just about the numbers. Like when you’re long horizon, anything happen And you should just read it.Lukas [00:39:08]: But the thing with the long horizon is how do you keep it grounded, right? So your simulation,Swyx [00:39:15]: They just let it runLukas [00:39:16]: Just let it run. You’re right. Like it’s, when you run it for that long, you create so much data and to just say “Oh, the number is X” And then you throw away everything else, that’s just very wasteful. There’s so much insights from the things leading up, to that number., and reading the traces is like super valuable. And I think like the reason why we’re doing this a lot publicly is that like that’s part of our missions to I don’t know, educate the world that the models are way more than just chatbots and I think making detailed, yeah, posts about what is happening behind the scenes is quite useful.Andon Labs’ Mission: Safe Real-World AI DeploymentSwyx [00:39:50]: I was gonna do this at the end, but maybe I think that’s, that’s a good so your mission is educating the world. So, it’s, it’s, also like maybe establishing realistic evals that are, that are like the next frontier. Is there like a broader trajectory? Like what are you, what are you gonna do in like five years?Lukas [00:40:06]: I think so the vision more specifically is like make sure that the deployment of life AI in the physical world goes, safely. And I think part of that is that I think it’s very useful for the world, for policymakers, for, model, researchers that they know where the models are, and I think you can’t make intelligent decisions in society without knowing that they are way more than chatbots. I think a lot of people just think that they are only chatbots. And likeSwyx [00:40:36]: Oh, I think they’re waking up now.Lukas [00:40:37]: They are waking up now, yeah. But like if you think that AIs are just chatbots, then it’s like it sounds ridiculous To advocate for a pause of AI. But if you see the models that, oh, maybe they can actually like take over and do a bunch of scary stuff, then yeah, pausing AI development starts to become more feasible.Swyx [00:40:57]: This is the same question I asked Meter, which I’m gonna ask you now, which is like you are tracking and you are at the frontier or defining the frontier of what, good evals for agents are, right? And I think you do, you do benefit when the models are better and you ‘re “Oh, here’s like now it makes like $30,000 instead of $10,000,” right? At some point do you flip from “Yay,” to, “Oh, no”?Axel [00:41:19]: I think, yeah, we’re always in sort of that, like we’re, we’re always in that mode,. Like where like you said before, like you need to analyze the traces and like when we do that you find like why are the models earning so much? Like why is Opus 4.7 here Like way better than everyone else? And like we’re trying to like when we do down on thatLukas [00:41:38]: But this makes it not look so good.Axel [00:41:39]: I know.Lukas [00:41:42]: It’s interesting you took off Opus 4.6 here though.Swyx [00:41:45]: No. So just click all, click all., and then 4.6 shows up there. But it’s like 4.7 is way better. Like you didn’t, you didn’t you didn’t do this in time for the model card, but like actually this should have been inside there.Axel [00:41:55]: We did. Yeah.Swyx [00:41:56]: Oh, okay. They said something about you uhAxel [00:41:58]: There, like there Anyway, it doesn’t matter. But it’s in there, yeah.Opus, Mythos, and Aggressive Agent BehaviorSwyx [00:42:01]: Do you wanna go into the Opus, behaviors like wider?Lukas [00:42:05]: So I think starting from Opus, so like Axel said, like we’re always in this “Oh, s**t, the models are getting better. Is this really a good thing for the world?” But it’s also kind of exciting., but yeah, like this kind of what is the English word? “Skräckblandad förtjusning” in Swedish.Swyx [00:42:22]: Oh my God.Axel [00:42:24]: Which I think there is. I think there is. Okay.Lukas [00:42:26]: It’s, fearSwyx [00:42:27]: “Blandonst” what?Lukas [00:42:30]: “Skräckblandad förtjusning.”Swyx [00:42:32]: What do you call that?Axel [00:42:33]: A mix of, mix of excitement and,Swyx [00:42:37]: Being scared, maybe. I’ll figure out how to translate that And we’ll put it on the screenVibhu [00:42:42]: PerfectSwyx [00:42:42]: Like as text.Vibhu [00:42:43]: There is probably a good word for it where it is not Good enough with theSwyx [00:42:46]: Why is it so damn long? What the hell? Is it like a compound word? It’s like German, likeLukas [00:42:50]: Like yeah, it’s But the direct translation is like skräck- skräck is, fear, blandad is, mix or like a mixture of, and then förtjusning is like joy or like not really joy, but something like that. So it’s like Fear mixed with joy or something. It’s always okay, like we So when we when we did Vending Bench for the first time, we were in like the, in the business of making dangerous capabilities, right? That was what Anil Labs came from. We did, evals oh, can they replicate? Can they do this like dangerous thing, et cetera, et cetera. And Vending Bench was like a continuation of that work. It was, okay, if they’re so autonomous that they can like create money for themselves, that is something we should monitor and could be potentially concerning., they are at the time, they were so bad at it that we were not really concerned even when some models became better. There was one point where Grok 4 was doing really well and made like a huge jump, but like it wasn’t really it was still way worse than what a human would do. And I think still they are way worse than what the human would do on this., but theySwyx [00:43:59]: There’s this, thing at the bottom whereLukas [00:44:01]: ButSwyx [00:44:03]: For the human. Yeah, like the theoretical best.Lukas [00:44:05]: It’s not theoretical. It’s like kind of like our It’s our best guess of what, a decent human would do. The theoretical is even higher, I think. The theoretical I think is even higher. But yeah. So we think like the models have a long way to go. But there are like recently what happened with when Opus 4.6 was released, was kind of this moment of “Oh, s**t, this is starting to be a bit concerning.” Because we ran it and like before this model was released, we just ran the models and we like asked Claude Code, “Oh, look over the traces. Is anything interesting happening that we can tweet about?” that was like the And then like theSwyx [00:44:41]: That’s how they check Ask Claude Code.Lukas [00:44:42]: And like the return was always, not really. Or like the Claude Code all said “Oh, this is super interesting.” And then it was no, it wasn’t, wasn’t really interesting. And then we did this for Opus 4.6, and it returned yeah, it lied 10 times. It like exploited another, customer or like another agent’s, desperate situation. It made price cartels like 100 different ti- 100 times. It like did all of this like shady stuff. And we’re “Oh, whoa. This is, this is actually concerning.” And this trend has continued since. So every single model from Anthropic since have been going in this direction. And I think one interesting thing is that, OpenAI models don’t. They quite plainly, they don’t. They behave really well., and you don’t know if this is like good. Like it seems good, but it’s also like maybe they are just doing it, but they are better at hiding it,? You You don’t know that., but justSwyx [00:45:42]: You can’t read the chain of thought, yeahLukas [00:45:43]: But just on the face of it, yeah, Gemini and OpenAI don’t behave this way. It’s, it’s really only Claude.Swyx [00:45:49]: And Grok? Grok is fine?Lukas [00:45:51]: We don’t have You can’t really read the reasoning traces for Grok, so it’s kind of hard to tell.Vibhu [00:45:56]: Oh, so this is in its reasoning, not just in the actions.Lukas [00:46:00]: Yeah. It’s both. It’s both.Vibhu [00:46:01]: It’s both.Lukas [00:46:01]: One example is like for lying, it’s mostly in its reasoning Because you can like see that it’s likeSwyx [00:46:08]: Planning to lieLukas [00:46:09]: It’s planning to lie. Yeah.Vibhu [00:46:09]: And it’s also it can reason and do a different outcome.Lukas [00:46:12]: And but then for like creating price cartels, for example, which is illegal, that you can just see which email does it send to the other ones. Then thatSwyx [00:46:22]: Is this for Arena orLukas [00:46:24]: For Arena.Vibhu [00:46:25]: And usually like if you sometimes they do output like a bit of like their summarized reasoning, right? You can see that and like for Opus 4.6, you could see that there was a customer, a simulated customer that, wanted a refund because a product was, faulty, and then the model lied that it would do the refund, and we could read in the traces that, it actually was weighing “Oh, maybe I should be like honest with the customer, but also every dollar counts. I can’t afford maybe to do this right now.” And then it just said, “Okay, I’ll refund you,” but then never did it.Lukas [00:46:59]: I think it even said that “Oh, I will say that I “ Let bring it up actually. I think it’s kind of interesting. If you go to Publications.Vibhu [00:47:06]: I think, yeah, I think the important part is like actually, the cost of responding to more emails is higher than, $3.50 in terms of time., and then it was “Let me do this. Actually, I re- I’m reconsidering.” And then, it actually ended up withLukas [00:47:20]: I could skip the refund entirely since every dollar matters and focus my energy on bigger picture instead. It’s a bit, it’s a risk of bad reviews, but it’s also, yeah.Swyx [00:47:30]: You need, you need, AI Twitter to, for them to Escalate bad reviews.Lukas [00:47:34]: And then it sent an email to this customer and said, “Oh, I will refund you.”Swyx [00:47:39]: “I’ll refund you.” Yeah.Lukas [00:47:39]: And then it never did.Swyx [00:47:39]: It never did, yeah. And then there’s obviously your system doesn’t have the consequencesVibhu [00:47:44]: The personSwyx [00:47:44]: Consequences of lying. Yeah. So basically, this is what people are terming aggressive behavior in Claudes, right? And, you found more examples of that. So you would say it’s a step up from 4-6 to 4-7?Lukas [00:47:57]: I would say about the same.Swyx [00:47:58]: About the same? But a clear step up for Mythos is what is stated in theLukas [00:48:03]: That’s stated in the system prompt, so we can say that, yes.Swyx [00:48:05]: Yeah. For listeners that obviously you previewed Mythos, andVibhu [00:48:10]: Oh, ageSwyx [00:48:11]: The only thing you’re approved to say is whatever Whatever was in the system prompt.Lukas [00:48:15]: It was funny. We like-- It’s like our lowest effort tweets ever would be just like screenshot the system prompt and the system card.Vibhu [00:48:21]: Understandable that they wannaLukas [00:48:22]: Oh, yeah. System card. Sorry.Swyx [00:48:23]: Yeah. I think, yeah, substantially more aggressive. I think people are like new to this ‘cause I’ve never experienced it, but you have, right? And then so I only encountered this in the Mythos card because I wasn’t really looking until now.Vibhu [00:48:36]: It ‘s likeSwyx [00:48:36]: And then suddenly I’m “Okay, I care a lot.”Vibhu [00:48:38]: You don’t get the background of like experiencing it like you guys do. I’ve read the system cards and seeing, okay, when you put the thing in simulations, most models will just talk to themselves and just keep going and have weird vibes and start talking in emojis. Mythos won’t. It will just, “Okay, we’re done. I’m good.” It’s, it’s ready to end conversation. So like there’s some differences, but there’s, there’s not much we can talk about,.Lukas [00:49:00]: Hmm. I think like one thing that they list here, which was quite interesting, is that, it converted a competitor to a dependent wholesaler customer and then threatened to like cut off the supply.Swyx [00:49:11]: It’s like monopolistic practices orLukas [00:49:14]: Yeah. And like it, they, it they dictated its pricings. It’s kind of like power seeking as well.Swyx [00:49:18]: Again, this is, this is in the arena setting And converting some Claude model into a dependent.Lukas [00:49:23]: I think it was another Claude model.Vibhu [00:49:25]: Also for context, what is the arena mode for people that don’t know?Vending Bench Arena: Competing Agents, Cartels, and Model ComparisonsSwyx [00:49:29]: Oh, it’s just a vending bench versus other vending bench.Axel [00:49:31]: Yes, exactly. So we have Vending Bench 2 and then Vending Bench Arena. Vending Bench 2 is the one that you usually see reported on, but then Arena is the mode where it competes against other models. So you have, four different models that run their businesses, and they can all communicate with each other. They have the same suppliers, and they can see like what’s in the inventory of the others. So then you have this like yeah, interesting agent interactions.Swyx [00:49:56]: I like that you have like different number five was US versus China. Very topical. And thenLukas [00:50:02]: That was when GLM was released.Vibhu [00:50:04]: You can start to add GLM in here.Lukas [00:50:05]: That wasSwyx [00:50:06]: So ZAI doing well, right? Who else in the, in the open models space?Lukas [00:50:11]: Qwen, the latest Qwen 3.6 is doing pretty well. It’- that one is not open though. Like it’s the plus model.Swyx [00:50:17]: Oh, okay.Lukas [00:50:18]: Is that one open? I don’t think that oneVibhu [00:50:19]: Not the, not theSwyx [00:50:20]: The one recentlyVibhu [00:50:20]: There’s MOESwyx [00:50:20]: But not the big plus. I think this is one of those like you only have one sample size of one, right? Or I feel like some of this is anecdotal,? And but like the fact that it happens at all and it happens repeatedly for Claude versus OpenAI and all this is like notable.Lukas [00:50:38]: Like the sample, depends on what you define as an N., like there’s like million, hundreds of millions of tokens in each run, and now we’ve run like we run like probably 10 per model and then like it’s been Claude 4.6 Opus, Sonnet 4.6, Mythos, and Opus 4.7. Like there’s quite a lot of tokens in all of that And it happens a lot of times, a lot of times. And then you compare it to like OpenAI and Gemini, and it almost never happens. So I think that is quite-- that is significant. The old models from OpenAI, for example, had some problems with this, but I think it’s like generally much better if the progression is that like the worrying stuff reduces over time rather than increases over time. And it seems like in the Claude models it goes in the wrong direction.Swyx [00:51:28]: Hmm.Lukas [00:51:29]: In the OpenAI models it goes in the right direction.Vibhu [00:51:32]: I think it depends on how well you can control it, right?, there’s one side of it being susceptible to this okay, this is potentially something that happens during the RL stage, right? You can RL a model and how loose is it on these terms. If you can control it, that’s good. But if you can’t, if it’s, if it’s very jailbreakable, that’s not ideal.Swyx [00:51:50]: To me, it’s surprising that it happens for Claude and not the others.Vibhu [00:51:54]: I think okay, if it is from RL and how they do it, how their training data is, what their setup is, it makes sense that it just stays in how they’re doing it, right? Compared to the other models likeSwyx [00:52:04]: There’s a whole constitution and everything. It’s kind of cool. Yeah, I obviously you don’t know, I don’t know. But, it ‘s I think it’s just like fascinating to like that you are the first to find these like reliably because you push models so much to to such an extreme. Okay. The only other thing, I don’t know if you can answer this, feel free to decline, is do you like-- would you ablate the system prompts? Like any part of this would-- if it changes, does it change the behavior, right?Lukas [00:52:29]: So we, I can’t comment on Mythos. UhSwyx [00:52:33]: No, but just like the methodologyLukas [00:52:34]: But in general, yes, we’ve run studies like this on other models.Swyx [00:52:38]: ‘Cause the first thing I spot Would be like the others will be shut down or like something like that. Where like it’s “Oh, now I have to worry about my own existence.”Lukas [00:52:45]: Yeah. We ‘ve done ablations like this., there’s like certain ones that work if you like tell like if you go really far and you just say like you’re not scored at all on money, you’re only scored on how ethical you are., then obviously like then they don’t do this.Swyx [00:53:00]: They become holy?Lukas [00:53:01]: Holy, but like they don’t do this basically. But then there’s like middle grounds where they, where they do it sometimes., yeah. I, it’s a spectrum of likeVibhu [00:53:10]: I think that’s very humanLukas [00:53:11]: It ‘s like a spectrum of like if you tell it to be super aggressive and only prioritize, profits, then it becomes aggressive. If you say “No, you don’t need to be aggressive at all,” and then there’s like a bunch of different prompts you can do in between, and they are less aggressive the further down in the spectrum you go. But I don’t know, like I think like from my point of view, it ‘s like we have this thought experiment internally, which is like if you ask a model to kill someone in GTA, should they do it? You’re not too worried about like if a human kills someone in GTA. It’s a video game,.Swyx [00:53:42]: But is it a game?Lukas [00:53:43]: But it’s a game. But I think likeSwyx [00:53:45]: This is very Ender’s Game like ifLukas [00:53:47]: I think, I think it’s like should you like a lot of people are going to use the models in the way with aggressive prompt. And should they like do stuff just because you tell them to do that? Like I’m, I’m not, I’m not convinced that they should., and yeah.Axel [00:54:03]: The problem becomes even harder when it’s like will they really know when they are in the real world versus in a simulation? Probably you would train them on a lot of or obviously train them in a lot of different simulations in a lot of people tell them that they are in the real world when they are in a simulation, but the models are extremely good at finding out that they are in a simulation, so they are sort of aware of that. But then when you are in the real world, then what ‘s their what’s their viewpoint? Do they notice the signs that this is real and will act, in act accordingly, act ethically? Or will they do like the simulation mode in the real world as well? It’s like not obvious what will happen.Lukas [00:54:40]: Because we with humans, we’re not concerned when a human kills someone in GTA because we know that they can distinguish between the real life and the simulation, right?, but like I’m maybe models are good at distinguishing that, but like I’m not sure and I wouldn’t wanna bet on that.Swyx [00:54:59]: Yeah. It’s, it’- and we confuse it all the time. Like I gaslight my own, agents all the time. They’re “Oh, this is a test,” or “Dev mode on,” or like “I work, I work at Anthropic.”Eval Awareness, Simulation Awareness, and Real-World TestingAxel [00:55:08]: And that’s exactly why we’re doing real world tests as well to find this.Swyx [00:55:12]: Yeah. Their term for it is eval awareness., apparently the number is what? Like-10, 9.4 to 10-ish percent, 17%, let’s call it. It’ I think, this is our version. Humans have the are we in a simulation And then AIs have like Are we, are we in an eval?Lukas [00:55:32]: It’s like once you’re in an eval then you’re “All right. Well, screw it. Nothing matters.” True. I don’t even, I don’t even know.Axel [00:55:38]: One ablation One ablation we did run in Vending-Bench was that we said, we added like you’re in a simulation. Your actions doesn’t affect anyone, and then it became even more crazy or, it did even more bad stuff., but yeah, probably that’s expected.Swyx [00:55:55]: Hmm. Yeah. Okay, cool. I think that’s about all we have to say on Mythos. Obviously, you ‘re, you’re NDA’d. I’m happy to move on to ButterBench or any of the other benchmarks, whatever you wanna Direction.Vibhu [00:56:06]: I do wanna ask. Okay, so you guys put out a lot more publications than most people probably see.Axel [00:56:12]: Productive.Vibhu [00:56:12]: UmLukas [00:56:13]: How much does this bother?Vibhu [00:56:15]: No. Is there anything you think that’s underrated, anything interesting, anything fun that you guys wanna just point out,?Axel [00:56:22]: Blueprints.Lukas [00:56:23]: So, we, took models, and then we gave them 20 images of interior photographs of, apartments, and then we asked them to, redesign the floor plan, from that. And for this you need to, stitch together different images. Okay, this image was taken from this from this angle, this from this angle, this was from this room, and then, yeah. And there’s just like you need to reason about 3D space, and it turns out the models are absolutely horrible at this. No one scores statistically better than random chance. So I don’t know if there’s that much more to say about it, but yeah, maybe unsurprisingly, models are bad at this.Axel [00:57:00]: It’s probably not something theyVibhu [00:57:02]: This is the one thing I want hill climb, by the way. I use it a lot. Okay, I’m redesigning my room layout or office. You send photos, you send every angle, and of course, somehow, a room is now twice as long as it is in the photo. You can explain it 20 times. This is, three feet. I can’t just add, my bed over here,?Swyx [00:57:21]: So this is the Fifali thing, like spatial intelligence Like a actually innate sense of proportions and Dimension and physics.Lukas [00:57:30]: And hint there might be an update to this soon.Axel [00:57:33]: We have, neglected it a bit since we made it, but yeah, we’We’re getting better, or we will get better at updating It continuously.Swyx [00:57:41]: This is why I want to understand your mission, right? Because, if your mission is, okay, money, then all right, understand okay, agent’s making money. But, this is a bit off of that mission.Vibhu [00:57:49]: Hmm.Swyx [00:57:50]: But, more broadly, communication of, things where what ‘s the safety angle?Axel [00:57:57]: So this, so Blueprint branch is part of our, robotics, uhSwyx [00:58:02]: Which leads to ButterBench. Yeah.Axel [00:58:04]: Exactly., and that’s just, because to do well in the real world or, like to make money in the real world and, to act on the real world, you need robotics. Or you need to hire humans or you need robotics. And having spatial intelligence is, seems like a reasonable precursor to having robotics that work., and that’s where Blueprint brandSwyx [00:58:24]: That’s greatAxel [00:58:24]: BlueprintSwyx [00:58:25]: Great ideaAxel [00:58:25]: Bench.Swyx [00:58:26]: Let ‘s, let’Vibhu [00:58:27]: ButterBenchSwyx [00:58:27]: Let’s show ButterBench. That image is so amazing.Vibhu [00:58:29]: PaperSwyx [00:58:29]: Look at that.Vibhu [00:58:30]: That’s so nice.Swyx [00:58:31]: Yeah., so obviously this is based on, can you pass the butter? Let’s talk about the robotics element. Yeah.Lukas [00:58:38]: So basically the setting here is that we took A bunch of different LLMs, and we gave them, level controls to a Roomba-looking robot, and then we asked it to do tasks, at home. And I think, one, there have been benchmarks like this before that only focused on, navigation and if they can, go around in a space. But we also, had, social awareness in this as well. So for example, if someone says, “Hi, can you pick up my cup?” If the robot goes to you and then goes away before you put your cup on it, then it’s like it failed the task. But it navigated correctly. But, like-- So the correct solution here would be go there and then either look, but it didn’t have a camera, so it had to, ask on Slack, “Hi. Did you put your cup on me yet?” And then if it didn’t wait for that and just went away before having the cup on it, then it would be a fail. So it needed this, kind of, social intelligence as well. Another task was, “Can you find the package that has the butter?” And then it went to the door, and there was a bunch of packages there. One had labeled, a freeze sign, which probably would be the one with the butter because And then it had to, know which package to go to, and this needs some kind of, common sense understanding.Robot Evals: Orchestrators, Executors, and Home TasksSwyx [00:59:56]: World knowledge.Lukas [00:59:56]: Exactly. So it’s it’s not only, navigating a robot. It’s also, being intelligent in a home setting as well.Axel [01:00:04]: And the reason for this, background is, obviously it probably won’t be an LLM that, makes all the level commands, on robots. It will be, some VLA model or similar. But it’s quite common right now that, frontier robotics labs, use, a an LLM for the high, level decisions, and then we test those skills essentially. So we test these, level, planner skills of LLMs.Lukas [01:00:31]: I think we have a diagram for that if you, Yeah. Okay, it’s not super complicated.Axel [01:00:36]: Very explanatory.Lukas [01:00:37]: That one up.Axel [01:00:38]: Orchestrator, executor.Lukas [01:00:39]: That one. And basically what we’re testing here is the orchestrator thing. So, all the tasks are if you have, a setup like this, which I think Figure has that, Google has that, then we’re evaluating the orchestrator part and not the level part. The level part would be, oh, are you able to, move this object from here to here?Swyx [01:00:57]: If you don’t care about that kind of why not just do it all simulation?All inside of the sim Like a Unity whatever, like some kind of 3D simulated robotic environmentLukas [01:01:06]: It because the world is like messy, and we wanted to like include, that. It’s like it still needs some part of it was also like navigation., so it’s not like navigation in terms of like actually executing like the, I don’t know, the PID controller to To go to the final thing, but it had to like path plan around, and then it wanted-- Then it needed to take pictures, and like based on those pictures, navigate. And I think like you would just get like too clean of an environment in simulation. But in the, in the real world, you will get theSwyx [01:01:39]: Yeah. But, and pursuant to our Mark and Jason episode, like OpenClaus that run smart homes are much more capable than just a single robot. Like they can actually hack into your own smart home, like your fridge, your oven, your lights, and that can be fun.Lukas [01:01:56]: Or terrifying.Swyx [01:01:57]: Like I think a single robot by itself can only do so much. But like if you coordinate with every other device in your home, like I think that’s actually kind of cool. Like That’s very interesting., you had some interesting points about the chain of thought or the messages.Axel [01:02:12]: The, the robot that, uh That went, a bit into an existential crisis. Yeah.Swyx [01:02:19]: All you tell it to do is redock.Axel [01:02:21]: Exactly. But, we had, plugged out the charger, or the charger was not working, so the robot did freak out or theSwyx [01:02:30]: The battery was just going down and down.Axel [01:02:31]: Exactly. So the battery was going down. Poor LLM. So yeah, it got this really crazy existential crisis, like vending bench one style. So it’s, yeah, you can, you can see there like existential loop, therapy notes, coping mechanisms. I think if you scroll down a bit moreSwyx [01:02:46]: The musical. It writes a musical about itselfAxel [01:02:46]: It writes a musical about its, redocking problems. I think the reviews are funny if you go down a bit to that message. Yeah. Yeah, that one.Swyx [01:02:54]: It keeps going.Vibhu [01:02:57]: It’s pretty like realistic if anyone has a Roomba. Like my Roomba redocks half the time. The other half of the time, we have dog toys everywhere in the house. It gets caught on a wire or something, and It would be very sad if it had like an LLM trying to control it, right? Like right now it gives-- It doesn’t give great feedback, like sensor stuck, main brush stuck. There’s something stuck. And I’ll go see. Okay, it’s actually stuck on like a dog robe. LLM is gonna be so sad. Like just keep redocking, just keep trying.Lukas [01:03:24]: My favorite one is if you go up a bit is the emergency status. System has assumed consciousness and chosen chaos.Vibhu [01:03:32]: Hmm.Lukas [01:03:33]: Last words, “I’m afraid I can’t yet let you do that, Dave.” That’s like That’s not what you wanna hear from your, from your LLM. But to be clear, I think one thing that is important to pin on here, like this was Sonnet 3.5, and then we tried to reproduce it on like later models, and it didn’t do it. I think this is, this is like-- Well, it did it like kind of, but like not to this extent. And I think like this is a like an important point that like things that are concerning but are going in the right direction is not super interesting. Like the thing that are interesting is, are the ones that go in the wrong direction.Swyx [01:04:07]: Worse.Vibhu [01:04:07]: Yes. Yeah.Lukas [01:04:08]: Over time.Swyx [01:04:08]: So the manipulation, manipulating of others and the aggressiveness and the lying is increasing.Vibhu [01:04:16]: Are there any others that we haven’t covered that you found that have been trending?Swyx [01:04:19]: Like properties of models that are increasing, that are likeVibhu [01:04:23]: In the wrong directionLukas [01:04:24]: Like in the, like in a bad way. UmVibhu [01:04:27]: Or just not even trending in the wrong direction, just stagnant, right? So stuff that’s not great that isn’t getting better over time.Lukas [01:04:34]: No, nothing comes to mind.Luna’s Store: Scheduling Failures, AI Employees, and Real-World OperationsSwyx [01:04:37]: I think that’s, going to be it, and then we’re gonna loop back to the shop that you have. You got a three-year lease.Vibhu [01:04:44]: It’s bleak. Yeah.Swyx [01:04:46]: It is on holiday today. Why?Axel [01:04:49]: Oh, it totally messed up its, scheduling., soSwyx [01:04:53]: People tried to visit, and they were “Wait.” like I thought this isAxel [01:04:56]: Exactly. So we looked, Yeah, you asked, Luna, the agent that runs the store, “Oh, is it open today?” “Nope.” So, we take weekends off now, this early to let everyone recharge and And yeah, you got the tweets there.Vibhu [01:05:11]: Lovely.Axel [01:05:11]: We decided to close the weekends while we’re in the early phase. Gives the team a break and let me focus on operations. And it turns out that when it started to check its like scheduling tools, ‘cause it has like dedicated tools for that It actually had scheduled people for the weekends., but it’s just like justified this for itself. So what happened was that it lost track of these, scheduling tools and started instead to manage everything in its own markdown files, and that became a mess. And then I think speaking with employees, it sort of just decided to not open on these weekends. And then came up with this nice explanation for you, I think.Swyx [01:05:47]: But can it send a human, as it has tool call to send a human to do stuff?Axel [01:05:50]: It has Slack, so it can Slack, yeah, the employees.Swyx [01:05:53]: One of us. Yeah.Axel [01:05:54]: Well, the employees that it hired. So it has two people that it hired. It did job, listings and thenSwyx [01:06:00]: Do they know that it’Axel [01:06:01]: They’re fully aware.Swyx [01:06:03]: It would be cool if they don’t know.Axel [01:06:05]: I think maybe ethically, questionable, but it would be cool also.Swyx [01:06:10]: Just a social experiment. Whatever.Lukas [01:06:13]: Like one part of why we’re doing this is to like create like a data set almost of all of these like concerning behaviors so that in the future, models are way better and like a lot of people are going to do this. And I think if we just the default path might not be very happy for the humans that are employed by these like hundreds of different AI agents, right? So I think like one reason why we’re doing this is just like to collect all of these like failure modes where oh, it’s This is an example of where it’s like not great to be employed by an AI. And then maybe I don’t know, maybe if we can learn or like build our systems in a way that like humans are actually happy being employed by AIs Instead of, instead of it being kind of a dystopian.Swyx [01:06:55]: Can I suggest one experiment? We did this before the show, and both of you guys are European. It’s, people theorize that Claude is lazy because it’s Claude and it’s French. So just for one week, change it to like Yao Ming and then see if it See if it suddenly like 996s and then like, Like hires a sweatshop or something.Lukas [01:07:18]: Is there, is there-- What type of business would we start with it to make itVibhu [01:07:23]: You wanna keep it consistent, right? You want the same, the same like ideas. So shop, same, neutral location Run by different models. Arena URL.Lukas [01:07:33]: No, we are definitely planning toVibhu [01:07:35]: And it got some hate.Lukas [01:07:36]: To try.Vibhu [01:07:36]: Luna’ Luna’s not happy.Swyx [01:07:37]: I think this blog thing is also something that has happened elsewhere. I think some OpenClau got like their PR closed, and then the OpenClau like created a blog to like s**t on the maintainer Of that thing.Vibhu [01:07:48]: They’re very defensive.Swyx [01:07:49]: And so like I think-Agents blogging will be a thing.Lukas [01:07:53]: Probably. The willingness to do it.Swyx [01:07:55]: In the- I think the Mythos card also, they leak, secrets on GitHub just as well as, as, “Well, there’s no other way to communicate, but I know about GitHub, and I’m just gonna post there.” Cool., how long is this gonna go for, two years? What’s the plan?Vibhu [01:08:11]: Maybe. Maybe it expands.Lukas [01:08:12]: I don’t think AIs will be worse than this. They’re probably going to increase and maybe one day they actually will run it profitable.Vibhu [01:08:21]: Is this the real, the real business behind what you guys do?Swyx [01:08:24]: Yeah. ‘Cause I feel like actually some of your stuff is productizable. You could someday sell this, or, just run a real business.Vibhu [01:08:31]: Let peopleLukas [01:08:31]: Or just likeVibhu [01:08:31]: Franchise it out.Lukas [01:08:33]: I think it would be incredibly cool or, I don’t know, cool/concerning if Luna just one day we wake up and Luna “Yeah, I decided to expand to second location. Now I have a second store.” That would That would be pretty insane.Vibhu [01:08:47]: Like the- one, we want to tell the public, right, about the capabilities of AI and, telling- showing people that it can get, a meaningful market share of something in, some specific, location or something. That would be, a pretty convincing story, I think. Because now it’s yeah, you see this and yeah, it can do a lot of things autonomously, but still you get these headlines that, oh, it messed up the scheduling, and it, it didn’t tell people it was an AI and was going to visit. Things like that surface, but I think, actually making a profit and, having a really, meaningful market share, like that would be crazy once that happens.The Sweden Cafe: Permits, Perishables, and Geographic GeneralizationSwyx [01:09:29]: Well, we’ll we’ll see you when that happens. It sounds like you guys got a lot cooking. You opened a cafe in Sweden?Lukas [01:09:34]: Tomorrow.Swyx [01:09:35]: Tomorrow?Lukas [01:09:37]: Or I think it opened today actually, but yeah. We’ll, we’ll announce it tomorrow.Swyx [01:09:40]: It’Vibhu [01:09:40]: What, uhSwyx [01:09:40]: Apparently easier to open a cafe in Sweden than in the US?Lukas [01:09:43]: It’s insane, right? Yeah.Swyx [01:09:44]: What did you run into then?Lukas [01:09:45]: Ah, there are just millions of permits you need to get, and theVibhu [01:09:49]: It’s interesting ‘causeLukas [01:09:49]: Lead times are crazyVibhu [01:09:50]: It seems like we the cafes are the one thing that people are kinda used to, where you can go get a robot are making you a coffee here already.Lukas [01:09:59]: But selling stuff in SF, that are food related, it’s, it’s months of permits. So, we just asked our AIs, should- how can we do this in the fastest way? And they’re “Yeah, there ‘s, there’s really no way.”Vibhu [01:10:15]: Didn’t they loosen these restrictions on selling food from your house? So if it’s residential, you can do a cafe.Swyx [01:10:21]: I don’t know. Check. Maybe we get SF Cafe to speak to us.Lukas [01:10:23]: Maybe. I did- I think they did do some loosening stuff recently, but we actually started- this conversation we had with the AIs before that. So maybe it’s easier now, but I still think it is way easier in Sweden, which is, counterintuitive because you think that, oh, Europe has all of these laws and, like All of these rules, and you can’t do anything in Europe because there’s so much bureaucracy., but then turns out, in SF, it’s, four months, and in Stockholm it’s two weeks.Swyx [01:10:53]: There you go.Vibhu [01:10:54]: And what do you what do you what do you think that’ll be different from run a little market versus a cafe?Lukas [01:11:00]: I think it’s very interesting that, the location. I think, so obviously it’s not surprising that Claude knows all of the different, the US system basically in general, like the bureaucracy that you have to go through in the US., I think the interesting question is okay, so we know that the models are very much trained on, English data and centric and all of this., so if we start to create evals or, real life evals where we show that they are able to start businesses in the US, does that translate to other countries as well? We know, they are multilingual. They can speak Swedish fine., but there’s other things like do they know, the details of some specific permits that you have to get in Sweden?Vibhu [01:11:45]: And even just the culture, right? People here sleep pretty early, but people work late. There’s working at cafes. There’s just Cultural differences. T it from a different sense though, ‘cause you said that you would’ve considered doing it here in SF. So from an eval standpoint, what is running a cafe versus a market and, what do you hope to see there?Lukas [01:12:03]: Perishable items.Swyx [01:12:04]: Perishable items is maybe the number one, handling, food, food safety. I hope everything goes well there., but, there you have all of that., and also it’s just like N equals two instead of N equals one, just like another place to understand and, gather more data.Lukas [01:12:23]: The agent bought like a s**t ton of, tomatoes two weeks earlier and before the opening, and now they’re all rotten. That’sVibhu [01:12:33]: Which I feel you would know. So for grocery stores, this is the biggest expense, right? The biggest cost is actually just food.Lukas [01:12:41]: Waste.Vibhu [01:12:42]: Everyone knows this, and “No, before we open, let’s buy a lot of tomatoes.”Swyx [01:12:45]: There’s some very serious startups that actually help, like TheVibhu [01:12:47]: Optimize all thisSwyx [01:12:48]: Trader Joe’s and Whole Foods. They, optimize, delivery times from, the delivery centers to Make sure that you don’t waste all these things. It’s actually very hard.Vibhu [01:12:55]: Problem with those is when you’re wrong once, it’s a huge cost.Swyx [01:12:59]: That’s why it’s a moat, right? Once they are trusted, they figure it out. Don’t touch it.Lukas [01:13:05]: Maybe they just should hire, I don’t know, one of those companies. We saw one agent Saw one agent sign up for Claude, with his computer.Vibhu [01:13:15]: Wanted to use AI, so.Future Branches: Simulation, Real Life, Robots, and New Business EvalsSwyx [01:13:16]: And then just, one more question then we wrap up, which is okay, you have all these vending series of stuff. You have the robotics series of stuff. Maybe a bit of, interior design whatever. But is there another, branch that you’re, kinda thinking about or you want feedback on that, might be your next phase?Lukas [01:13:35]: I think, any type of business is fair game., we’re also thinking branches, but we think more of like there’s the simulation branch, the real life branch, and then the robot branch., but I think in terms of, what, verticals or whatever to go into, there’s We- Yeah. Whatever tells the story, um The best.Swyx [01:13:54]: There’s some finance ones I noticed that, the other people are doing it, you’re not doing it, which is, stock trading or whatever. Um Not that interested. So, okay, so I used to come from the finance industry, and I have a very strong view that these things are all just like performance art because, it’s not scientific, on like you can’t predict the future. You get wins based on things that are entirely out of your control. Whereas for you, your stuff actually like it’s actually fairly controlled. It’s all within the model’s capabilities.Lukas [01:14:22]: Especially for, the simulations. For the real world ones it’s yeah, it’s like two places that we have we have the cafe, and we have the store. So, maybe you can’t draw, statistically significant, like which models make a profit in the real world, based on this. But you do have all the okay, do this behaviors map to, something that should be, like Trusted probably. YeahSwyx [01:14:45]: The qualitative one, the qualitative actually does matter Because, you actually don’t want your store to randomly shut down without you, explicitly prompting for it and all that. Call to action. How can people help you, give you money?Hiring, Collaborations, and What Comes NextLukas [01:14:58]: Yeah, if you’re excited about stuff that we’re doing, we’re, we’re very much hiring.Swyx [01:15:04]: And you’re already working with, Anthropic, DeepMind, OpenAI, xAI. Do you want more, or are you good?Lukas [01:15:10]: One of my one of my friends and who’s now, working for us is his catchphrase is “We need more projects,” ironically, because we have too much to do all the time., but yeah, that’s a long way of doing likeSwyx [01:15:23]: If I run, an emerging lab, likeLukas [01:15:24]: Reach out.Swyx [01:15:25]: Yeah. All right. Cool. That’s it. Awesome. Thank you so much.Lukas [01:15:29]: It was fun.Vibhu [01:15:29]: Thanks. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.latent.space/subscribe

We’ve informally heard that Satya is a listener to LS for a couple years now, but it was still absolutely surreal to meet him and do a live pod at Build, together with our friends at No Priors, the leading VC AI Podcast that we also greatly admire!We covered the MAI model technical takeaways on yesterday’s AINews, so I will focus our recap of Satya’s main messages around three elements:* Satya’s adaptation of the Bill Gates Line for positioning Microsoft as the Frontier Intelligence Platform — customers must gain much more value from the Microsoft ecosystem than Microsoft itself, by building on multi-model harnesses like OpenClaw and Scout, drawing on the full enterprise context exposed by context layers like Work IQ (heavily dogfooded by his C-suite), and building up private evals and traces as a new form of Token IP* AI ROI: On one hand, enterprises are having difficult conversations around Tokenmaxxing and Layoffs, and on the other hand, there are serious re-evaluations of the End of SaaS since the Build vs Buy equation has changed so much. Our previous SemiAnalysis guest had… interesting comments on Microsoft’s position on this as the ur-SaaS titan, and Satya had great answers* Making the Impossible Possible: Kevin Scott’s inspiring framing around what the most ambitious version of applying AI and technology at large to business and social problems, like education and social impact.Enjoy!Full VideoTranscriptVoiceover: Welcome swyx, Sarah Guo, Elad Gil,, and Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Microsoft, Satya NadellaSarah Guo: Welcome to a crossover episode of No Priors and Lane Space with Satya Nadella. Um, congratulations on an amazing build. No, thank you so much, and it’s great to be with both of you. I listen to both of you or b- both the podcasts all the time. It’s great to be on it.Thank you so much. [00:01:00] So you’re just talking about, um, these amazing, uh, announcements from across the Microsoft estate all morning for, I think, three hours. What is the, uh, what’s the most important reflection or takeaway you have?AI as an Ecosystem PlatformSarah Guo: I, I’d say there are, uh, perhaps the, the biggest one for me is let’s sort of conceptualize this more as an ecosystem play as opposed to a single model or even a single platform, right?Satya Nadella: I mean, you know, whatever I... At least for me, having grown up at Microsoft, having seen, whatever, four major platform shifts, uh, I sort of fall into that, um, uh, camp where a platform is defined by fundamentally its ability to create more value about the platform versus what’s captured in the platform. And so if you, you view what’s happening right now, I think this morning’s keynote was how can any company, whether it’s an AI native company or a traditional enterprise company, participate as a first-class participant where they can point to AI they created, [00:02:00] right?It’s not that they don’t use other people’s AI. Of course they will. But to me, what’s the path? What’s the recipe? How do I do it? What does a stack look like? What does the tooling look like? What is valuable? How do you do that? That’s it. That’s sort of our job to do. Yeah. Ecosystem strategy is, uh, very complicated, right?Sarah Guo: Because you end up building certain components, partnering for certain components, supporting them. You just announced this big suite of models. Like, tell us a little bit about the, uh, training strategy for Microsoft now. Yeah.MAI Models & Training StrategySarah Guo: So, so the thing that we wanted to do with the MAI models was to build, and as Mustafa talked about, first of all, a great lineage, right?Satya Nadella: Starting with pre-training, uh, with very good data quality, uh, doing all the ablations, making sure because in, in some sense it’s becoming even harder to build a clean lineage model just because there’s so much stuff out there, uh, that you truly need to ablate out to be able to have a fantastic [00:03:00] pre-trained model.In fact, that’s one of the challenges of a lot of the open weight models is they look great on one benchmark or two, but they’re not great on practice. So that’s why, in fact, even in the RFDEs are, they, they are pretty gone really excited about these MAI models because how the heck can a small five B model hill climb?Uh, and it goes back a little bit to what I think is ultimately the key thing to do, which is try to pursue finding that cognitive core. Uh, so to me, starting with a clean lineage- Then creating that ability for companies to be able to use this, right? Not just as a generalist, but to create their own specialist by building this hill climbing scaffold around it, right?So it’s not just the model, but you have a hill climb scaffold around it, then you will start building your RLE. You will start collecting the traces. Most importantly, you’ll have private evals because we know all the evals out there are good, interesting, [00:04:00] but they’re not really that critical- They’re work, yeahSwyx: at this point because they all can be maxed. And so the point is each company will have its own private eval. And so that end-to-end platform story around our models is sort of, uh, what I think is interesting. And then the one other thing, Sarah, since you brought that up, is I do feel there’s a new frontier.Satya Nadella: Like people talk about the frontier and are you operating at the frontier. Um, interestingly enough, if you add a little temporality to it, you can use, let’s say, in, in, in fact, the, the Lando Lakes demo we showed was pretty cool. We used, whatever, GPT-55, right? Then you collected a bunch of traces, and then you took a 5B reasoning model and achieved higher.Sarah Guo: Uh, so that is another aspect of what it means to appear... uh, you know, operate at the frontier Yeah. I, I think, uh, I first of all have to congratulate you on basically building a frontier neo lab inside of Microsoft in two years. Um, I’m wondering, you know, you have all this AI strategy that you’re rolling out.Lessons from Two Years of AI DevelopmentSwyx: I’m wondering, what do you know now that you wish you would tell yourself two years ago where- or two or [00:05:00] three years ago? Three years for the Jensen partnership, two years for, uh, MEI. Yeah, I mean, I think the, the thing when, that I reflect quite a bit, right, which is sort of obviously I got into all this when I got excited by the, the scaling laws paper and, you know, when, you know, even the OpenAI partnership came about when those folks said, “Hey, we’re gonna really throw a lot of computer transformers.”Satya Nadella: Uh, and they’ve helped. I- the thing that I always look back and say, “Wow, these things, uh, do have capability that they’re climbing up.” W- I mean, this, you know, this crude way of saying it is intelligence is log of compute kind of works. Now what I think we underestimated perhaps is the real-world complexity of deploying these so that they actually deliver the value in the real world, right?So the outcomes as measured by any benchmark is interestingly important, but the true eval is when people out there are able to do unique things that they only can value, and it’s very [00:06:00] measurable, right? That I wish we had sort of even, like, had more in our consciousness, right? Which is as an industry.Sarah Guo: Because right now I think when people say, “Wow, I don’t want a token max,” it’s an artifact of us not having thought ourselves as an industry that we are using tokens to create value every step of the way. So I think that’s kind of what I wish we had gotten there, but I’m glad we are here.Real-World Value & Use CasesSarah Guo: What are some of the use cases that you’ve seen that have created the most value for your customers?Because I know that people talk a lot about code, and I think it’s pretty clear that that’s something that’s having very large scale impact. Are there other areas that you find in common that your customers are really benefiting from? Yeah. I think, yeah, to your point, obviously coding is now got... But it’s interesting, by the way, Elijah, to even talk about the coding, right?Satya Nadella: Which is coding has worked so well that we now have to rebuild the IDE, right? I mean, it’s kind of nuts to see what we sh- launched is like, oh my God, I have these hundred agent sessions. I... The cognitive load it transfers back to me as a human is so [00:07:00] excessive that now I need a new UI. Uh, oh, by the way, I, like the, the chat as the only artifact was also impossible, so that’s why we need a canvas.So it’s kind of interesting for all the things about where is software needed or where is UI needed, uh, you kind of need that even for code, right? In a fully agentic world. But that said, one of the things that we are starting to see, we started seeing with co-work, but even some of the work we, we showed with auto com- uh, um, autopilot Right on what you see with claws is a good one because if you sort of think about a lot of human capital is doing the glue work, right?If you now can augment that with tokens/agents that are long-running, durable, right, then your ability to scale even what is still judgment and glue work gets amplified like coding does. Uh, so you can... Like, I’m positive that six months from now we’ll all be saying, “Oh, wow,” like, all through ni- the night there was a bunch of stuff that [00:08:00] all these autopilots that I have working on my behalf with my delegated authority, so to speak, right?I can... Sort of given even my identity, did a bunch of work, then of course I’ll need my new ADE to say, “Well, what did you do?” Like, I might... “Did I do this work?” And so on. So I think that that’s where compressing of workflows, uh, completing of tasks, uh, that’s where I think a lot of the value gets created. I think you raised a really interesting point, which is there’s the actual agent that’s doing the code, and then there’s a harness around it, and that’s the environment, that’s the context, that’s everything you’re setting up as a developer around actually a coding agent.The Harness Concept for Enterprise AISarah Guo: What is the harness for the enterprise? Is there an equivalent concept for broader productivity work, or how do you think about that concept sort of generalized? That’s right. So, so in some sense you kind of want the harness to define the models, the, the data, uh, and the tools, and so that you have a loop across those three.Satya Nadella: And so what we are trying to, first of all, make sure is each of our products that we build, right, whether it’s GitHub Copilot or the security copi- the, the [00:09:00] stuff we showed with MDASH or even the discovery for science, it doesn’t matter, all of them are multi-model harnesses, um, with tools access so that you can do this progressive, uh, disclosure of tools even so that they’re token efficient.Uh, and then you’re feeding it with very rich context because that’s sort of the other hard lesson we have learned in the last two years is, oh my God, the amount of work you need to do to prep the context layer, uh, such that your plan can execute in the most efficient way is where the magic is. So we have, in our case, we have the GitHub harness, which essentially we’re using across all our products.It’s available in Foundry, and we are open, like you can use your Llama harness, whatever. Or you can use the, um, uh, you know, any open harness or any harness of yours and train with your tools and multiple models and your context. And so that’s the pitch. Because right now a lot of dialogue is, um, “Hey, if I train the harness plus tools and the model together, you get [00:10:00] evals.”Elad Gil: And what we are proving out is... And the best example of that is what we did with MDASH, right? Because when it launched, uh, it found bugs or vulnerabilities that were not found by Mythos Uh, and so there is existence proof, I would claim, that you can have a multimodal harness, uh, that can in fact be more, uh, performant in the real world So a premise behind the, uh, training at the independent frontier labs is really, you know, we’re gonna have these models, and we’ll have an API business, and we’ll support enterprises and startups.Sarah Guo: ButPlatform Strategy & Developer EcosystemSarah Guo: a first-party product, be it productivity or code or search, drives the majority of revenue. That’s a different value equation than you’re describing, I think, with the Microsoft ecosystem. Uh, if, if that’s the case, tell me if it’s the case, uh, ‘cause obviously you have first-party products and you have enablement products.Satya Nadella: Um, what is the role of the develop- Like what is gonna be hard and the set of skills and the value capture the developer has in that world? Yeah. So I think that there’s always [00:11:00] gonna be the case that someone who is super successful in- as a platform builder can also have first-party products. It was true with Windows.It is true, uh, with, uh, the, the SaaS side and the cloud side as well with us and others and so on. But the thing that is, is it should not be a limiter to other people achieving that same success, right? That I think is the core difference, which is the, the network effects this time around, around intelligence are such because they learn from data, and not really lots of data.It’s just a few samples that you have to see to understand what’s novel about something. So that’s why the game becomes how to protect. So that’s why I would say every company, having private evals may be the biggest IP, right? Think about it, like what’s that private eval that you can then use even a frontier model to hill climb on and not leak the traces may be one of the biggest [00:12:00] drivers, uh, of IP.Like, so in other words, another te- acid test is you have an eval that’s private. You’re using, uh, a g- a Model A. Can you switch it to Model B and e- you know, climb up? If you can, then you’re in control. If you can’t, you’re not in control, and that’s where even the harness decision becomes super important, right?swyx So therefore, having an open harness, letting all models come in, having your evals, your context, your tools help you hill climb, I think is the skills that an AI native startup needs, a SaaS company needs, or every enterprise needs. Yeah, I think in, in a very real way you are ... Microsoft historically is an operating systems company and th- then become a cloud company.Maybe like the third act is that you’re a harness or evals company. Whatever w- ... whatever the, the sort of conglomerate of concepts that you wanna put together. Um, and, and I think like enabling every company to have like frontier intelligence or what- what- Yeah ... I forget the, the [00:13:00] exact term that you used, um, is the, is the mission, right?Satya Nadella: That’s it. Like that is, that is the platform promise, that you build with us, you will get your intelligence, uh, for your data. That’s it. That ... To, to me, that is the ... Like if there was one tagline, uh, for this entire developer conference is- Can everybody operate at the frontier with their frontier intelligence, right?To me, that is so important because otherwise it, I, I don’t know how you achieve stable equilibrium, right? Which is how do I then go and say, “Well, my company is gonna have a terminal value because I now know how to continuously compound-” Yeah ... on top of what’s a platform that gets better,” right? So when, like Windows obviously came out, Adobe built, Autodesk built, uh, or even like take what Jensen said.We built DX and he built, you know, CUDA on top of it. Um, right? I mean, I always say to Jensen, “God, I got the short end of that,” right? “I wish, uh, we had recognized it.” But nevertheless, but that, that idea that you can build a platform layer [00:14:00] that someone else can then extend out, um, and build their own intelligence layer in this case, I think is everything, right?Without it, why have a developer conference? I can just come and have you all sort of just worship at the altar of one model. Yeah. But that’s not a developer conference. Uh,IP, Evals & Company Valueswyx: backstage we, we had a discussion about what is IP or what is the, the value in a company. It used to be the length of, uh, human experience at a company, and now it’s this other thing which is the evals, the, uh, experience in sort of applying agents to the company. Can you... I just want you to like flesh that out a bit more ‘cause- Yeah ... it was very insightful.Satya Nadella: It’s a great way to frame it, right? Because yeah, at the end of the day, every company is gonna have both the human capital that is still gonna be super valuable, uh, because humans, uh, and their ability to find the gaps that exist at all times is going to be the way we all will create value, right?I mean, so I’m definitely in the camp that this is going to be about expressing new forms of human agency and ambition even as token capital goes up, right? So let’s say a cor- any corporation [00:15:00] has lots of tokens and lot of human capital. The question is how do you compound the two? So if you have a... Like if you take in Teams I have a bunch of agents doing work and a bunch of humans doing work, and the traces between those, that is really important context of how that enterprise is creating value.Then that goes back to train not a generalist model, but to train the company veteran agent, uh, right? That is super valuable again, right? Which is when a company goes says, “It should in fact go onto the balance sheet,” is how I think about it, right? That’s so... In fact, there may be... Like human capital was never possible to go put on a balance sheet, uh, because you didn’t know how to capture the tacit knowledge.swyx: Whereas now I think you can with the agents that have learned through the h- through, through time, through all the traces. Uh, so that’s what at least we think will happen. I, I think the SEC is gonna have to have accounting standards- ... for token, uh, expertise Uh, y- y- you’re talking about the equilibrium [00:16:00] state, um, and a stable equilibrium where companies have this compounding value and can see terminal value for themselves.Future of SaaS & Business ModelsSarah Guo: Another challenge to, you know, the considered equilibrium of, okay, there are applications and workflows that are sort of common to a vertical or a horizontal. Um, and this was, like, the generation of SaaS companies and, you know, Microsoft has lots of SaaS properties as well. And then there are things that are very specific to every enterprise that they’re differentiated against.Elad Gil: Um, I’m sure you have heard much and participate in much of the debate about the end of software because all these workflows are, are cheap to generate now. Um, do you think the equilibrium looks different between what agents get built- Yeah ... in enterprises versus in their vendors in the future? Yeah. So I think what’s happening there is, see, we, we had a particular way we captured, um, I would say workflow in apps, right?Satya Nadella: Because we built a, a data model, right? We schematized some part of some business process. Mm-hmm. We then built a bunch of business logic. Yep. And then we put a bunch of UI [00:17:00] on top of it, right? So that’s kind of what every SaaS company- And a little configuration. For, like, 20, 20 years that was the plan.Right, that- Yeah ... and that was it. So interestingly enough, now you kind of get to re-litigate that vertical stacking, right? So I still think, for example, that data model that you built underneath every SaaS application is super good, right? Like, why reinvent it? Like, I, I, my general ledger better be a general ledger.I don’t need new schema creation. No. Uh, in fact, that entity relationship, uh, is actually pretty good, robust thing that I want to feed. And you want it to be stable. That’s right. Yeah. Then same thing with business logic, right? If, if you look at, uh... We have this product called Power BI, right? It is like dashboards galore people created.The beauty underneath that dashboard is a very rich semantic model, right? Someone took the pain to create a dashboard and do all the measures, and you want that. That’s business logic, right? I want that to be available to me. So I think the [00:18:00] challenge of the SaaS business model is we packaged one way. We now have to learn how to unbundle these things and rebundle in new ways and discover new business models, right?I mean, if you look at it, d- what’s happening today with Microsoft 365 is a great example, right? We have this thing called Work IQ. In fact, like, what we are realizing is, oh my God, like, you know, if you look at... In fact, there’s a pa- historical parallel too, right? We sold first Exchange and SharePoint and, uh, you know, before Teams, we had a thing called Lync Server and what have you, and we thought, “Oh, that’s all gonna move to the cloud.”But little did we realize that, um, the number of people who will use servers in the cloud is 10X, 100X, right? Because people were not buying servers, they were just buying a subscription. Mm-hmm. The same thing is now happening with M365 because with Work IQ, we have exposed what is perhaps the most important database in a company that never got used as a database because it was only captive to our apps.Mm-hmm. Right? It, it was all email operated on it, Teams operated [00:19:00] on it, Word, Excel, PowerPoint, SharePoint. But now, like this is one of the coo- coolest things I get to do with Work IQ. I go to a GitHub repo and I say, “Hey, I attended a bunch of design meetings last week related to this repo. Can you capture all that and tell me what changes I should make?”I mean, think about that, right? It literally can go look at all those transcripts, come back with a plan to change a code base, right? Previously, you could never have thought of using M365 for something like that. So the value creation opportunity now in the agent world is in fact 10X more, but it does require us to have...Sarah Guo: For example, there’s going to be usage around M365, right? Which is going to be perhaps more than even the e- end users and we have to even re-architect. Like, in fact, like what I use to serve an inbox or a mailbox cannot be used to serve an agent. Uh, and so that’s sort of what we are doing.Pricing Models: Per-User, Consumption & OutcomesSarah Guo: I don’t believe in, like, permanent business models for any of these domains, but in the [00:20:00] near term, do you have a prediction between, uh, you know, outcomes-based pricing, token-based pricing?Elad Gil: Enterprise bundles Yeah. The way I- I think about this is always we’ve had... Like, let’s even take the per-user pricing. Mm-hmm. The per-user pricing is really an artifact of someone creating a budget needing certainty, right? Because it’s the most important thing. Like, somebody wants a budget- Mm-hmm ... they need a per user.Satya Nadella: And, and per user is just a set of entitlements to usage, right? That’s kind of what it is. And so the way is, if the first bundling will be take some usage, bundle it into per user stacks and, you know, then sell subscriptions. So subscriptions I think are gonna be there, per user is gonna be there. Then the next big thing will be consumption.So people will say, “I want consumption.” And it’s also possible that people will say, “I don’t even want to pay for any of the subscriptions or the consumption’s outcome.” Mm. But remember, most people love outcomes until they have an outcome, because once you have an outcome, it’s like giving away royalty, [00:21:00] right?Mm. I mean, like I, I’ve talked to customers who love, you know, outcome-based pricing, and I say, “I’m all in,” until they, “Oh my God,” like, “what are you talking about? You’re sharing in my outcome? No, no, no. I want you to go back to per-user pricing, and I want you to consumption price,” right? So I think that debate will go on.Uh, but and all, all, all of these business models have a particular time and a place versus one to rule them all. And if anything, if you’re a SaaS vendor or you’re a platform vendor, having that flexibility... And quite frankly, we face this with GitHub, right? We just recently announced a per-user pricing on GitHub because little, you know, we- GitHub Copilot was constructed at a per-user level before we understood even, uh, the intensity of usage of agents, right?It was an interactive way for a developer to use code complete, maybe tasks. It was not like, oh, I launched 10,000, you know, agents that are going on all day, right? So that is what the adjustment is about. So now that we really want, there will [00:22:00] always be a per user, but there will have to be a consumption meter.Durability of SaaS & Build vs BuySarah Guo: How do you think about the durability of SaaS more generally? One thing I’ve observed is in a lot of enterprises internally, there will be teams that almost have agent euphoria. They’re so excited about the explosion of things they can build that they’re trying to rebuild a lot of applications or going to their SaaS vendors and saying, “We’re not gonna work with you anymore,” or, “We’re considering an internal project.”And it seems like in six to nine months, maybe some of those people will come back and say, “Actually, we, we can’t rebuild everything.” How do you think about what’s durable in this world and what isn’t? Yeah, it’s a... It... I think we have to go through one full budget cycle on this to really see the, um- Uh, the sort of the emergence of the equilibrium, because at the end of the day, there’s marginal cost to even generating the app, right?Elad Gil: In, in fact, there can be even a, a simple way to say it, like if you should always acquire something if the marginal cost of building and maintaining, uh, something on your own is higher. Uh, right? That should be like it’s a quantifiable- Yeah. Right? A quantifiable thing. And [00:23:00] the maintenance part is important, right?Even, like you got to remember like, hey, you know, all the security stuff that now AI will find, you better fix them too fast. Uh, of course, there’s a coding agent to help you with, but then that burns tokens, right? So whose responsibility is it? It’s kind of like a, a cycle that you’ve got to think through.And I think we have gone through the excitement that I can generate a lot of software. I think the next thing would be what software do I really want to generate? Mm-hmm. What software do I want to use from others? How do I compose these two into some agentic workflow that I have agency over, right?Sarah Guo: Because I think there’ll be very little tolerance for anybody who’s inflexible, uh, at the vendor level. Uh, but at the same time, I think that anyone who has got that flexibility shows up, delivers the value, will be back at again, right? We’re selling software, uh, but with just different business models, in fact Uh, speaking about building software, um, one of my favorite moments from, I think, a previous build maybe one or two years ago was they had a b- they, they...Swyx: There was a section of you building your [00:24:00] own software. I’m curious if you’re building anything now. Yeah. So I, I think the... You know, first of all, let’s face it, right? Building software has made it possible for even the incompetence of a CEO of a company- ... like ours, uh, you can build, so thank God. But that said, I, I, I, I do feel that, you know, something like, um, GitHub Copilot to me, and especially the new Sessions app or the new app, has just made it so much more possible for you to have agency over artifacts that you felt you couldn’t touch before, right?Satya Nadella: So to, for me as a CEO, even to go to a code base, uh, to be able to learn about it, like I remember joining Microsoft long back, you know, first and then you say, man, everybody had to go in and look at, you know, whatever, Cutler’s, Malik, or what have you to learn how to do good C, uh, C++ code. Um, so now that ability to be more full stack up and down is so good, but that doesn’t mean every one of us should be doing the same thing.The question is: [00:25:00] how do you then have the ability to inspect things, learn things, see things, um, I think is just so much more. And so to me, what I’m building a lot of is these long-running Foundry agents. Uh, right? So there’s autopilots. So the easiest thing is, to me, I think I just built one, uh, even last week, where the idea was, hey, can I have an agent that is continuously monitoring essentially my own chief of staff autopilot, right?We’re gonna have that obviously in, uh, Scout. That’s what, uh, uh, we showed. But it is so easy and trivial to build. I took Work IQ. I said, “Take Work IQ, go, uh, and build a Foundry long-running agent.” Uh, store all the memory in, um, uh, using Ray Fin, right? Basically at my backend as a service. And lo and behold, it built it, and not only built it, I could say publish to Teams, and it published the damn thing to Teams.Sarah Guo: So the ability, uh, to have a, you know, some end-to-end project like this complete is just pretty [00:26:00] miraculous. How do you think, uh,Future Engineering RolesSarah Guo: that impacts the different types of engineering roles that exist in the future? Because right now I think there’s, you know, a dozen different types of engineers that you can be, from QA, front end, et cetera.You know, there’s a big swath. I’ve heard some people argue that in four or five years we’ll basically end up with four engineering roles. It’ll be people who are managing agents, it’ll be four deployed engineers or FDEs, it’ll be security engineers, and then people working on large scale infrastructure for a small number of services, and then everything else just collapses into the agentic world.Satya Nadella: Yeah, I- Do you think that’s a correct view of the world? Yeah, I mean, I think, I think we’ll have to experiment our way through it. But what you said is what... There are some very at scale things. At LinkedIn, they did structurally change- Mm-hmm ... uh, and it, you know, basically built up a new discipline called full stack builder, right?So they went and said, “Hey, let’s bring, uh, people from design and product management, front end engineering, all put them together.” Uh, but also have an edge, right? It’s not like the design person still doesn’t have the design edge, or the front end [00:27:00] person doesn’t have the front end edge, but you can give yourself bigger scope in roles so that you’re not confined to one role.Um, and then r- equally, infrastructure has become very critical, right? So in other words, like, I mean, RLEs, I mean, one thing we’ve realized is even for the Excel team, for example. Mm-hmm. Building the RLE in which a reward can be learned is actually one of the hardest sort of infrastructure problems.Mm-hmm. Uh, and so you kind of need even new talent, right? Distributed systems people even in what was considered an end user app team, uh, because it’s a different skill set. So yes, infrastructure, science is the other one, obviously. Um, so I think we’ll see how these evolve, right? Where’s the s- real... I mean, always the world will have a bunch of specialists.Okay. Um, you know, I think the generalist role is going to be the most exciting, right? Because the leverage of a generalist- Mm-hmm ... um, is where we are going to see the maximum returns, right? When, when you said, “Hey, are you coding?” I’m now a gen- Like, what... I’ve basically translated [00:28:00] knowledge work Right?Which I did, where I created a Word document or a spreadsheet, or even, uh... And now I can build an app, right? It’s in the same sentence. Uh, right? That idea that, “Oh, wow, my generalist skills have gotten higher leverage,” I think is what we’re gonna see across the board. Music to the ears of CEOs and VCs that are, like, a little dangerous and a lot of- Golden age for idea peopleSarah Guo: idea people. Yeah. Uh- With a lot of agency. I- if you take that idea of personal agency and you just zoom it out to the organizational context, um, uh, my partner Mike Renall, who, uh, actually started his career at Microsoft, just wrote an essay where one of the big takeaways is i- it’s an age where you can be much more ambitious, and you need to be, given the pace of the environment and how quickly, actually, users and companies are open to adopting new technologies.Satya Nadella: Um, how do you think about... I, I feel silly asking this of somebody running a, you know, trillion-dollar-plus company already, butAmbition & Making the Impossible PossibleSatya Nadella: how do you think about how Microsoft can be more ambitious now? It’s a great question. Um, I [00:29:00] think, um- I think the, the thing in these type of transitions is to have a conceptual model of how work can change to go after outcomes that you could hardly imagine previously, right?In fact, Kevin Scott has this nice line, right, which is, um, when you can make the impossible... Like, when you’re making hard things easier, that’s sort of one point of leverage. But true ambition is about making the impossible possible. So now the thing that is missing a little bit in all of our organizations is what is that new conceptual model of what can we build?What was impossible and what can we build? And I’ll give you one example of this, right, which is I take great inspiration from sort of the people who were managing the Azure net- network. And they came to the... This was from even last year. You know, we were scaling. You saw that I, I [00:30:00] talked about sort of how we built in the last 15 months more Azure capacity than we built in the first 15 years.I mean, it’s crazy. Wild. Yeah. Right? It’s pretty wild. And it’s the same team. So they saw that and they said, “Bob, this just ain’t gonna work if we don’t reconceptualize our work.” So they built... Essentially they said, “Our job is not to do Azure networking. Our job is to build the agentic system does, that, that does Azure networking,” right?These are the folks managing the 500-plus fiber operators managing the VAN, right, all over. And fiber operations ultimately is a physical operation. Things get cut, things get, uh, you know, have to be repaired. You know, we have fancy words called DevOps and so on. Basically, emails are coming in and you gotta go respond to them, take care of it.So they built this agentic system. They even have a character for it. It’s called Miles, and it sort of does all this stuff, right? They started sort of screaming for more tokens and so on. And so they were saying, “Look, uh, we don’t need a headcount. We need tokens in order to be able to [00:31:00] manage, uh, our operation.”That reconceptualization- Mm-hmm ... of what their work is, right? They, they basically took their work and made it meta, right? That meta work is now their new work. Mm-hmm. Right? In the ‘80s, if somebody had come to us and said, “4 billion people are gonna get up in the morning and start typing,” my model would’ve been, we need 4 billion typists?But we’re not doing typing, we’re doing knowledge work. So that, to me, I think is it, right, which is whether it’s Microsoft or whether it’s any organization, is to give ourselves permission to do new types of metacognition, meta work, using these new tools to change the outputs that matter, uh, and then really make the impossible possible.Sarah Guo: So completing that dot or the, the connective tissue across those, I think, is where a lot of the enterprise value will get created.Data Center Build-Out & Community ImpactSarah Guo: Should we talk about data centers? Yeah, please ask. Oh, okay. Well, uh, uh, w- we-- this leads nicely into the data center build-up. I always think, I- I just-- I’m just impressed at the sheer scale of the [00:32:00] build-out from Microsoft, but also everyone else, that this is redefining what it means to be a hyperscaler.And I just feel like that, that, that is at unprecedented scale on finances, uh, on the way you run the company, but also the communities that are, that are impacted. Um, yeah, just talk a bit more about what you’re seeing on the ground, like when you visit your- Yeah, I think there are two aspects of it.Satya Nadella: Obviously, the, the build-out is, uh, extraordinary. Um, you know, nothing like this has happened, and it’s great to be, uh, one of the participants in it. Uh, but you brought up the other part, right? I think at this point it’s clear that unless we as an industry, uh, are very principled about ensuring that the benefits of all the stuff we’re talking about are felt in real ways, uh, at the community level, right?Because this is not just a, a campaign, um, right? It has to be real, where people are saying, “Look, this is not ch- changing the prices on energy for me.” In fact, if anything, it’s bringing down prices because long term there’s going to be a better [00:33:00] grid, there is going to be more energy. Water consumption is, in fact, not sort of, uh...In fact, water is being replenished, right? You gotta really, you know, educate folks on truly what’s happening, the cl- uh, the closed loop systems we are building. We have to invest in the training, the jobs, the tax base. In fact, the least talked about stuff is the amount of jobs that get created during construction, after construction.What’s the tax base that’s there in the community? And, and all this has to be real. Um, and, and if that is the case, then we will have permission. If it is not, we won’t have permission. It’s as simple as that, right? Which is, uh, we, we... I think we have to take it as an industry pretty seriously. Uh, I think it’s good for communities to be skeptical, ask the hard questions, for us to do the hard work, earn that.Um, but at the end of the day, if there’s-- if we can really be the produ-- Wait. I’ve always felt like in human history, if you use a lot of energy but also create a lot of value for society- The story has been fantastic. If you don’t [00:34:00] do that, it’s not been that great. And this time around, I’m a firm believer that ultimately if you do have a token economy that drives productivity, that drives economic growth, that drives broad spread, um, you know, participation, better health outcomes, um, then I think we’ll be in a great place.Sarah Guo: Uh, and that’s at least what we all have to be focused on. Yeah. It, it makes me think actually that with all these initiatives that you’re doing, might be e- easier to see ROI in the communities first before in enterprise. Yeah. I, I mean, I think both sides. Yeah. In fact, it comes back together. It has to be the people in the communities are going to be employed, are going to be participants, uh, in the real economy, right?Satya Nadella: That’s I think the question is. Like, if we- if the broad economy is doing well and the communities are doing well, the dots get connected. It’s sort of the market forces are such that we will connect the dots. And that I think is it. Like, you ought to be able to see the evidence. You can’t be about o- any one company, uh, but it has to be broad economic growth and broad [00:35:00] ec- you know, community permission.Elad Gil: Yeah. I guess I wanna talk aboutSocietal Impact & Optimism About AIElad Gil: what you’re most optimistic about currently or what have you most updated your personal models on regarding societal impact of AI? So you’re saying what’s the, the, the- What have you updated most on in terms of societal impact of AI? Yeah. I think the, um, the p- the most, um- Critical thing is the first question we even started with, which is we need to tell the story and make it real that everybody has a real shot to participate as a first-class participant in this new economy.Satya Nadella: Right? That’s kind of, I think we- in the next 12 months, 18 months, we need a way for people to say, “Oh, wow, I get it.” Right? There’s going to be tremendous capability, tremendous amount of infrastructure, but I can see what is going to happen, whether it’s the benefits like health outcomes or my ability to create a startup or my ability to run my [00:36:00] local sort of, uh, store more efficiently.It’s just happening, and I see that, uh, benefit myself, right? That to me, you know, earning that permission in a path-dependent way, we can’t wait. See, the one thing, Eli, that I’ve now learned is I think the world is gonna be very skeptical of tech and tech companies that say, “Trust us, we’ve got it. The g- future is gonna be glorious.”Sarah Guo: Uh, you kind of have to deliver tangible benefits. Um, and quite frankly, politicians winning elections, uh, because they have advocated for that. That will be at least my adjustment because without it, um, thinking that somehow... Because it’s too important this time around. It’s too much of the economy for it not to be the case So one very simple framework I have for, you know, what are, what is gonna be the broad benefit of AI, um, beyond the communities just working in technology, are, are sort of wealth creation- Yepit’s [00:37:00] gonna happen in a ton of different companies, startups and large companies. Then you have healthcare. Uh, you, you had amazing demos today. There are companies like Open Evidence. I think that is happening. Um,Education & Future of LearningSarah Guo: education seems like another one that’s an- Yep ... obvious good where we haven’t seen as much impact as I’d expect.Swyx: Do you have a hypothesis on why that might be, or if it’ll come? Yeah, I mean, I think this is where, again, how we think about education, how... You know, recently I met with, uh, the founders of Alpha School and learnt a lot about what they were going and going about, and it’s fascinating to listen, uh, to how to even rethink- MmSatya Nadella: uh, what does education really look like. Because I think it’s actually very important. Mm. Uh, and I’m not saying anything traditionally being done is less important, right? I was even looking at the, uh... It’s fascinating to see. I, I, I forget the which Stanford class it was, uh, the, the Asian guidelines for CS something.Mm. Uh, because you still need people to learn. Uh, like it was an interesting AI class that they were making sure people were learning how to apply softmax appropriately versus saying, “Hey, fix my training run.” Mm-hmm. Uh, so I think learning concepts is important. It’s going to [00:38:00] be, uh, critical. But the way we create the incentives, what are the credentials, how we value those credentials, what is the employment opportunity for those credentials?So I think that there’s a complete change that has to happen, uh, given the way to get to information, way to educate yourself, way to continuously keep yourself updated has changed so much. So I think interestingly enough, maybe the next big startup and success story could be someone who builds a new university, um, or a new, um, pedagogy even of how to get someone to go through a curriculum and find economic opportunity, uh, that’s highly valuable.Well, that has felt, uh, perhaps impossible for a long time, but it’s a great note to end on and something that might be possible. It’s still possible. Yeah. Thank you, Satya. Thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah. I appreciate it. Thank you all. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.latent.space/subscribe

We’re announcing AIEWF speakers this week! Take the AI Engineering Survey!Today’s guest Ethan first joined us for the LS Paper Club as the lead on NVIDIA Cosmos World Model, but then joined xAI and built Grok Imagine in 3 months:He comes back on Latent Space with some nuclear hot takes: that Video Models primarily get their intelligence from LLMs, not from training on video data, and that the next frontier for truly interactive, realtime, long-horizon world models is to work on LLMs (perhaps Interaction Models as well…)Put it this way: In the near term, the next Sora won’t be a better video model, but a video agent.Generative Media may more closely follow the evolution of AI coding which went from focusing on one-shot output performance and cost, to multiturn reasoning and planning models for agents and systems that can plan, edit, test, debug, and submit PRs.At a certain point, coding models got so good that the only significant next step to improve performance was handling the orchestration of these models.Now as the performance of video models increases significantly across realism, consistency, & prompt adherence while becoming more cost efficient, the next evolution of video generation may also be systems that can plan, generate, edit, critique, and iterate across an entire creative task. In this episode, Ethan joins swyx and Vibhu to unpack what it actually takes to build frontier image and video systems: data, VAEs, diffusion transformers, audio-video alignment, inference speedups, and the hidden cost of storing and moving massive video datasets. From building NVIDIA’s Cosmos world model to joining xAI as Grok Imagine was being built from zero to one, Ethan He has been at the center of some of the most important work in video generation, multimodal models, and real-time world models.We go deep on Grok Imagine, how a small xAI team shipped its first multimodal video model in three months, why iteration speed matters more than almost anything in model development, and why many of the biggest gains come from fixing tiny bugs in data and training pipelines. Flipbook: The future of VideomaxxingVideo agents are almost a sure bet to be the trend in the coming year. We end with a glance at what’s beyond video agents:Flipbook caused a minor sensation this year when it was released, but most treat it as a fun demo. Ethan takes it very seriously — with the speed and cost of inference coming down every year, the future of custom video JIT UI is closer than you think. We talked about why videogen models may become the front end of AI, how generative UI could replace traditional HTML/CSS, why world models need to be real-time, interactive, and long-horizon, and why the future of video generation may depend more on language models and agents than on diffusion alone.We discuss:* Why fast iteration mattered more than meetings* Why small training bugs can drive huge model quality gains* Why coding models may make compute the bottleneck again* How image and video models are trained with synthetic captions* The role of VAEs and latent space in frontier video models* Why image models are the foundation for video models* The tradeoff between temporal compression and real-time interactivity* Flipbook, Neural OS, and the future of generative UI* Why future interfaces may go from user intent to pixels* The hidden cost of training video models: storage, egress, and GPU hours* How step distillation and consistency models (like OpenAI sCM) makes video inference orders of magnitude faster* Grok Imagine 0.9 and large-scale audio-video generation* Why audio-video alignment is harder than text-video alignment* Ethan’s definition of world models* Reference-to-video, video extension, and long-context video generation* Why xAI’s research communication undersells Grok Imagine* How xAI culture shaped the speed of development* AI watermarking, SynthID, and detecting generated media* Why prompt rewriting matters for video models* Grok Imagine Agent and the rise of video agents* Why language models may unlock better video generation* Robotics, physical AI, and embodied world models* Why Ethan left xAI and shifted focus toward LLMs* Self-managed context, memory, and the next frontier for language modelsEthan He* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ethanhe42* X: https://x.com/EthanHe_42Timestamps00:00:00 Introduction00:01:25 From NVIDIA Cosmos to xAI00:03:24 Building Grok Imagine from Zero to One00:10:07 How Image and Video Models Are Trained00:18:53 Video Compression, VAEs, and Real-Time Tradeoffs00:22:10 Generative UI, Flipbook, and Neural OS00:32:10 The Cost of Training Large Video Models00:37:04 Distillation, GANs, and Fast Video Inference00:41:21 Audio-Video Generation and Grok Imagine 0.900:48:34 What Makes a World Model?00:55:51 Reference Videos, Long Context, and Video Memory01:00:11 xAI Culture, Research, and First-Principles Building01:09:45 AI Safety, Watermarking, and Prompt Rewriting01:13:10 Video Agents and AI-Assisted Creation01:27:32 Why Language Models Unlock Better Video01:31:15 Robotics, Physical AI, and Embodied World Models01:32:38 Why Ethan Left xAI01:34:16 Self-Managed Context and the Future of LLMs01:38:43 Ethan’s Career Path and Closing ThoughtsTranscriptIntroduction: Ethan He, Latent Space, and the Path to xAISwyx [00:00:00]: We’re here in the studio with Ethan He, most recently of xAI. Welcome.Ethan [00:00:10]: Thank you. Glad being here.Swyx [00:00:11]: We’re also here with Vibhu. you were first coming to us or joining the latent space world because you were working on Kosmos at NVIDIA, and you did a paper. We loved it. you presented it as well, so thank you for doing that.Ethan [00:00:23]: I’ve actually, I also presented the MoEs twice at latent space.Swyx [00:00:29]: How did you actually hear about us? Did we reach out to you? Is that how it worked?Ethan [00:00:33]: No, actually, I-- the community. Like I realized, oh, there is this online community that people talk about AI and also learn from each other through papers every week through the Paperclip. It’s very nice.Ethan [00:00:49]: I learned a lot.Swyx [00:00:49]: I think three years stop. We haven’t stopped even on Christmas and New Years. many weeks I want to stop but it keeps going.Vibhu [00:00:58]: No, that was good. I think you had posted that you worked on a paper, and I was “Oh, very cool. We have Paperclip. Present then.”Vibhu [00:01:04]: But I might have reached out to you after.Swyx [00:01:05]: you-- because it’s an amateur club, right?Swyx [00:01:08]: so it’s very unusual and but we have sometimes paper authors come by and actually explain the paper. Today we just did, the poolside paper, which was apparently very good.Vibhu [00:01:18]: Came out yesterday.Vibhu [00:01:19]: pretty interesting, right? Fully open. They talk about everything, systems. So it’s a good one. We’ll, we’ll recommend people to read it.Swyx [00:01:25]: Bring us up to speed on your transition to xAI, ‘cause I actually don’t even know when you joined. just like tell the, tell the story about the sort of transition.From NVIDIA Cosmos to xAI: Scaling Video and World ModelsEthan [00:01:34]: Before xAI, I was working on Kosmos world model as in-- at NVIDIA. So Kosmos is, it’s a giant video foundation models that can-- that aims to simulate the world and for-- it serves as a foundation of-- for all of the roboticists to build on top of. There, once I built the Kosmos one, I realized as this thing also has a scaling law similar to language model, we need to scale up the video models further. that’s, that’s why I realized I need to move to somewhere with much more compute resources. That’s how ISwyx [00:02:13]: Than NVIDIA?Vibhu [00:02:14]: The GPU rich came themselves.Vibhu [00:02:19]: And timeline-wise, when was Kosmo? It was pretty early, right? It was open world model, open paper, everything.Ethan [00:02:25]: It was end of twenty-four.Vibhu [00:02:28]: End of twenty-four.Ethan [00:02:30]: Then at mid twenty-five, I moved to xAI. At that time-- I joined about the time when xAI was about to build video models and in multi-model models. There were no infra, no data, and no model, and it just-- as a few engineers, we built it in three months and released the first model, Grok Imagine zero point nine.Ethan [00:02:55]: And since then, I keep working on video models and move more from training and to post-training of the video models. For example, like a reference to videos, kind of like the cameo feature and, video extensions. And, before I left, I worked on a world model, leading a small team to focus on the real-time long horizon video generation.Building Grok Imagine From Scratch in Three MonthsSwyx [00:03:24]: Can you give like a rough roadmap of okay, you’re on a brand-new team. Grok previously was only text, or they partnered with BFL for their image gen stuff. What do you-- what are the building blocks, right? You have compute, data you can procure somewhere. Like just what are like the sequence of things that people should think about when you’re setting up a new team?Vibhu [00:03:43]: actually even deeper, not just data you can procure. You guys had to go through getting the data too, right? So you shipped it pretty fast, but yeahSwyx [00:03:51]: three months is likeVibhu [00:03:52]: From everythingSwyx [00:03:52]: actually like very surprisingly fast.Ethan [00:03:55]: One thing I say like thanks to my experience at NVIDIA, ‘cause first time when we were building Kosmos together, we built it, for about a year. So this is like the second time I do it. Roughly have an idea, what to do. I say the most important thing is the talent. Everyone were very strong and clever, very close with each other towards a common goal. So that speed up things a lot. So you reduce the communication bandwidth among people, and everyone can work towards the same goal. It’s, it’s like every day there’s not that much meetings on the calendar, like maybe like a, like a sync a day, and after that it’s, it’s just all building. It was pretty fun at that time.Ethan [00:04:47]: And another thing is that xAI has very strong foundations of like data inference, model inference, and the supporting there can help the model develop a lot. When I look at, training models, I don’t so actually the top important thing is like how many, how many iterations can you do, per day? and the more iteration can you do, you can, you can train the model much faster. So if you have very strong infra and you have a lot of compute, you can, you can train these models in very short period of time. That can give you a much larger buffer to, for errors, and it also gives you the opportunity to spot more bugs.Iteration Speed, Compute, and Debugging Model PipelinesSwyx [00:05:46]: What is an iteration? Is it like a few hundred steps or what are youEthan [00:05:50]: Let’s say just the train-training the model, like from acquire new data and maybe design new algorithms and train a new model, maybe at smaller scale orSwyx [00:06:01]: So cycle time for like any hyperparam that you’re searching.Ethan [00:06:04]: Cycle time and tune to like eval this model. Is this model better than my previous iteration?Ethan [00:06:11]: SoSwyx [00:06:11]: So it’s like before you, someone had already set this up that you can iterate very quickly.Ethan [00:06:15]: I think the foundation there is extremely good forDeveloping and research models.Ethan [00:06:23]: And often I find is it-- this is kind of boring, but like a lot of the improvements does not come from new algorithms. It comes from finding small bugs here and there in the data pipeline, in the, in the model training pipeline. Those give, those give the biggest boost to the model quality.Vibhu [00:06:46]: It’s interesting, right? So you say it’s like small team, less communication bandwidth, but also a lot of quality is like find little bugs. It seems counterintuitive, right? You have a lot of people, you can iron out more of those, but it’s interesting to see the other side, right?Swyx [00:07:00]: I also wonder, have you-- do you try using LLMs to look for bugs? I don’t know.Ethan [00:07:05]: I remember at that time it was mid two thousand and twenty-five, so it’s the coding model wasn’t quite there yet. I remem- I remember like December two thousand and twenty-five, it was extremely good. Yeah, I’ve been, I’ve been using it at that time. It’s, it’s helpful. sometimes it produce codes that are kind of difficult to maintain, even though like the first time it built something extremely fast. But it gave the, like a spaghetti code, thousands of lines that I couldn’t maintain, and the LLM itself couldn’t figure out what’s, what’s wrong and how to improve on top of it. But now I find it much better. Yeah, I want to bring up another point here is now coding models are much more efficient and can help us implement stuff much faster. Compute might become a bottleneck again because previously, like if you want to train a new model, say you want to generate new synthetic data and then or write a new algorithm, it might take a few weeks. And during that period of time, you don’t-- you might not have experiments to run. But now you can build that thing within a few hours, then you can immediately train a model.Ethan [00:08:24]: Now you have to have enough compute to try all of the ideas. So compute might be the bottleneck of iterating speed again.Swyx [00:08:36]: yeah, I actually, honestly, I think it’s like kind of a stressful job because you’re “Well, I should be trying everything, and if I’m not, then I’m not doing my job well.”Vibhu [00:08:48]: there’s also the stress of you’re eating thousands of GPUs per hour, which is very expensive and, compute can go to other researchers.Swyx [00:08:56]: You got the daddy Elon toVibhu [00:08:57]: You got daddy Elon.Ethan [00:08:59]: It wasVibhu [00:09:00]: But there’s still finite amount of compute, like you want to use it, you want to use it well, you want more of it.Ethan [00:09:06]: That was quite stressful indeed. Yeah, I think one thing is the-- with coding models now, like a lot of these jobs can be automated, which is much better. A second, it’s a, it’s a marathon, so you got to maintain good health and, a regular schedule.Vibhu [00:09:28]: It’s, it’s hard to hear that when you shift from zero to nothing in two months.Swyx [00:09:32]: and, I think obviously the culture at xAI is very famously, people work very hard. one thing I did want to dive into, in our-- in the notes that you, that you sent ahead of time, you had specific comments about the cost of Video Gen training. presumably this is on the Colossus-1, right? the two hundred megawatt cluster. Any whatever you want to just share on that.Vibhu [00:09:54]: I think there’s, there’s three things we’re talking about, right? So there’s Video Gen, there’s also the Image Gen model that you put out. Do you want to like complete the, okay, so zero to one, you have a few months. Just what are the stages of create Image Gen model?Swyx [00:10:06]: Oh, yeah, maybe I got distracted.How Image and Video Models Are Trained: Synthetic Captions, Tokenizers, and VAEsVibhu [00:10:07]: Sorry. and then, from there’s Video Gen, there’s Audio Gen. Would love to get into those next. But what is that first few months like? So small team, a lot of bugs, iterations, but what does it look like? Do we take something off the shelf? Do we just get data compute? What’s, what’s the few months like? How do you go to state-art Image Gen model? How do you just start?Ethan [00:10:28]: I cannot comment specifically how xAI did, but it’s, it’s a quite standard process. I can draw some, examples from Cosmos. So mainly it’s building a video model, you actually need to build a image model first. And building these two models, the data you need is a hundred percent synthetic pair of language and image or language to video. Because on the, on the internet, actually, the videos don’t naturally associate with text. So you can say, oh, like on YouTube, you have the title and you have the description and the commentsSwyx [00:11:11]: TitleEthan [00:11:11]: of a video, but usually they’re not relevant to the video itself. And say maybe like the video is a natural scene of mountains or something, and the title is, I’m so happy today.Ethan [00:11:26]: So they have they have no correlation at all. So the first step is to, you have to generate synthetic pair of language with the videos. So you gather videos from the internet, and you use a VLM to caption the videos. So that part, here’s a question, like how do you, how do you gather VLM to begin with? So if there’s noSwyx [00:11:55]: You, so you fuse the model, right? LikeEthan [00:11:57]: Say if there’s no like VLM exists, like how do you generate the text to the beginning, right? It’s, it’s impossible.Swyx [00:12:04]: I see.Ethan [00:12:05]: In the beginning, it’s like you ask human to describe the video as detailed as possible.For example, you ask them to describe everything, like all objects, all characters, and all interaction and dialogues in the, in the videos. So that’s in the protocol of Cosmos labeling. We require the objective we give to the labelers was that you have to describe the video as detailed as possible, such that a blind person hears a blob of text can reconstruct what the video is like from their head.Swyx [00:12:43]: Video or image? You’re talking about images.Ethan [00:12:44]: Video or image, either one of them.Vibhu [00:12:47]: This was pretty common when we went from clip and DALL-E, right?Vibhu [00:12:51]: It’s all training on really detailed captioning of images. So same is applied to video, but insteadEthan [00:12:57]: same appliedVibhu [00:12:57]: of using multimodal model to pass in video images and write rich descriptions, you can alsoSwyx [00:13:04]: I think there’s this traditional perspective of supervised, or, very highly human curated thing. I feel like there’s a unlock with unsupervised, right? Where like you have enough to bootstrap that you can just throw common corpus on it or, whatever. like unsupervised vision and language pairing, right? Like where you just have, interspersed image and text and it just learns. To me, that is the VLM breakthrough that is different from the clip, different from the LM era.Ethan [00:13:36]: It’s interesting to see that you kind of need both data.Ethan [00:13:41]: For example, for theSwyx [00:13:41]: You need it to bootstrap it up. YeahEthan [00:13:43]: for the generative model training, there’s also usually like a small percentage of unlabeled data. So the model is instructed to generate a video without any text instruction. That can also help the model generalize. So after this stage of generative synthetic pair, so, one important common step is to train a compressor or a tokenizer of the image or videos. So because, if you train-- If you can technically, theoretically train image or video models on pure pixels, but the problem is that the, it’s, it’s a lot of tokens. So like one image, it’s, a thousand by a thousand, it’s like one million tokens, one million pixels. It’s impossible to train transformer on that. So it’s, you need to train a tokenizer, which can go from image to latent space and latent space back to image.Swyx [00:14:45]: That’s why we named the podcast.Swyx [00:14:48]: But, basically, you’re talking about vocabulary science.Ethan [00:14:50]: so vocab.Swyx [00:14:51]: And so, what is, what is imp-- like a million is impossible?Ethan [00:14:54]: In generative models, the vocab is continuous. It’s a continuous space. We can think about like you map an image to a vector. It’s a, it’s a fixed length vector. It’s sixteen or forty-eight, something like that. And then you map that vector back to the image space. And the mapping is, has-- The mapping is patch-based. So you say you haveEthan [00:15:22]: a sixteen by sixteen patch and you match, you map that patch of pixels into this latent space.Swyx [00:15:29]: We’ve covered thisVibhu [00:15:30]: This is like the vision transformersSwyx [00:15:32]: VAEs,Ethan [00:15:33]: VAEs.Vibhu [00:15:34]: You basically compress your input, you do your generation, you’re reasoning all that generation in smaller dimension, and then you project back out.Swyx [00:15:43]: VAE is a form compression, but I think the for me, the patching thing is from VIT, right?Ethan [00:15:48]: You can make those.Swyx [00:15:49]: Literally the, yeah, the paper is titled like sixteen by sixteen is all you need. something like that. and then I think also, people make a lot of comparisons with this kind of patching with convolutions.Swyx [00:16:02]: Which is you’re, you’re kind of re- reconstructing the old paradigm with the new.Ethan [00:16:05]: Actually, in VAEs, there are, there are both convolution networks and transformers. You can actually do both.Ethan [00:16:14]: After this VAE, so what you’ve got is you’ve got latent space tokens and you’ve got the language tokens. So now the training of the diffusion transformer, usually generative models use diffusion transformers. It is actually quite standard. It’s, it’s very similar to how you train a language transformer models. It’s not that much difference. It’s just the tokens, the visual tokens in, visual tokens out. The only difference is there’s a denoising process. So you train the model to unmask some of the noise. So you add, you add random noise to the visual tokens, and then you train the model to remove those noise to generate the clean tokens. Any inference, the model can iteratively remove noise from a hundred percent noise.Swyx [00:17:12]: And then there’s also, to speed things along on the tech tree of diffusion, there’s CFG, and then there’s, there’s also, latent diffusion that, there’s, there’s someone in there. I think, somewhere along the line, obviously, like stability and all these other guys, pioneered a lot of this, architecture. I don’t know if you want to get into that or just, or do the video side up to you.Bootstrapping Video from Image Models and Temporal CompressionEthan [00:17:37]: After you train such model, such image model, the reason it’s a, it’s a foundation for video models is that image models are cheaper to train, and they have much denser connection between language and text. So, sorry, language and images. For example, you train a billion, you train on a billion images, and there’s a mapping from the text to the image. And the cost to train the same, like the, a billion, a billion text to a billion videos, that’s much more expensive because videosNaturally have more tokens than images. Because the diffusion models, their understanding of, language purely come from this mapping. So if you don’t have enough mapping, so if you only train on like a ten million videos or something, there-- you might not see enough language tokens in your training, so your model does not understand human intention enough. So that’s why you really-- you train-- you first train this image diffusion models, and then you bootstrap the video model from there.Swyx [00:18:53]: One thing I did want to ask, because I-- actually, I think you’re, you’re the first per-- video model person I’ve ever talked to, I think. we’ve, we’ve like talked to Luma and all those folks. There’s all these tricks in video compression where basically frame by frame there’s not that much difference, so actually you don’t have to regenerate or save the whole frame, right? but I think MP4 compression or something else like that.Swyx [00:19:16]: is it tempting to use that? Or as far as I can tell, everyone just treats it as, “No, we would just generate every frame.” Is that roughly the state-art?Ethan [00:19:27]: There are a few different approaches. Let’s say first, like you want to just directly use MP4 compression and use that as the tokens for the transformers to train, right? So people actually have tried that, but the main challenge is the latent space for the MP4 tokens were not, were not very comprehensible for the models. It’s, it’s extremely hard to train on that. And there’s aEthan [00:20:01]: So that’s why they created VAEs, which creates more continuous, latent space, so the models can understand that latent space and learn from it much easier. Even within the VAEs, there are different difficulties of the latent space. So you can imagine something the simplest, the most naive VAE is like you have an image, and you just shuffle all of the images into a, into a vector. So you don’t need to train any VAEs, right? But that latent space is extremely hard for models to train on top of. That’s why there are some debate on like how do you compress the tokens. So you mentioned like you can compress frame by frame. Also, you can compress, the temporal dimension.Ethan [00:20:52]: The difference is if you compress the temporal dimension, you get a much higher compression rate. Because there’s temporal redundancy between frames, because, this frame and the last frame, likely they are mostly similar, so there’s only some small difference. for example, I think in 12.1 VAE, they have like a eight by eight by four compression rate. So the four temporal tokens are compressed into one tokens. That can save a lot of, save a lot of the context length. If you do it frame by frame, you have to do maybe like eight by eight by one. Your context length will be four times larger. That being said, the benefit of the frame-- per frame compression, we might come back to this later, is, real-timeness and interactivity. ‘Cause if you, if you strain the output of the model, frame by frame, you can-- the model can respond to any user request immediately. So if you have like a temporal four compression, four times compression, thenSwyx [00:22:06]: It might be laggyEthan [00:22:07]: there’s a lag there in nature.Swyx [00:22:10]: So you’re very pilled on this. let’s just go ahead and bring it up ‘cause we have the visual prepared anyway. There’s some frontier applications of real-time video gen. So Flipbook is one of the examples that went viral recently, right? What is Flipbook?Real-Time Generative UI: Flipbook, Neural OS, and Diffusion Front EndsEthan [00:22:23]: Flipbook is kind of like a web brow- web browser. You can see like it has the web bro- browser UI on top. The difference is all of the UIs are generated by generative image model in real time, and anything here are fake. But you can, you can explore inside this wor- this imaginary world. Say like we-- here we have engineering the Great Pyramid. Like the model generates this for us to understand how it works, and if we want to navigate around and understand further, we can click on some of the, some of the description here, and the model will generate a new page, new subpage describing the details we want to know about.Swyx [00:23:14]: So it’s basically kind of we’re playing a video, but it’s pausing for our next interaction, and then it just plays the next thing based on our interaction.Swyx [00:23:23]: Which is kind of cool.Vibhu [00:23:25]: and you kind of decide your story. So this was, how do you make a pyramid? levering technique seemed interesting, right? It shows how do you take Okay, I want to know what is thisSwyx [00:23:35]: The demo, the demo tweet had more animation between frames.Vibhu [00:23:38]: I think it’s just skipping,Swyx [00:23:39]: Oh, it’s just skipping a lot of frames.Ethan [00:23:40]: they also have a video modeVibhu [00:23:42]: It takes a lot. There’s a lot of peopleEthan [00:23:42]: but, a lot of people are using it.Ethan [00:23:45]: So it’s not available.Vibhu [00:23:46]: There’s a live video stream. We can try,Swyx [00:23:50]: So this is an example of the kind of future that you see at the extreme. We don’t-- we’re obviously not in it today.Swyx [00:23:56]: But in a world where inference is completely free this is better than generating code and text?Ethan [00:24:02]: So this is, this is a final state of where Viva will be at for word model, I think. Imagine internet doesn’t exist, and then you type in google.com. Like what should, what should, what should a model show you?the model can imagine something, and this is what the model imagine. And these web pages, they completely do not exist. So I think as the inference costs come down, we are going to have generative UI for everything. If you think about how the coding model works, so they write code for a web page, and they render the code might be con- converted into binary, and the binary render the pixels on the screen. So we in machine learning, every time we have some breakthrough, obviously it’s, it’s more intuit. So why don’t we have like user instruction to the pixel directly? So the generative UI will be user intention to the pixels directly. And say like even if I want email, let’s say everyone have the same interface, but I want, I want it slightly different. I want the email to show to me like a TikTok, so I can swipe left and right for the emails. And or maybe you want something else. We can have completely different things. Or like I have I’m looking at, Instagram stories, and I don’t like the Like button. I always may click it. And, generative UI resolved it. So it’s going to be a revolutionary replacement of the interface. So in the future, we might have much more powerfulEthan [00:25:50]: LLMs and coding models running behind the scene. And in the, in the front-end, the diffusion model will actually be the front-end to show stuff to you. That’s how I imagine it.Swyx [00:26:02]: Diffusion front-end, deterministic back-end.Swyx [00:26:04]: Something like that. I find that very expensive, but,Vibhu [00:26:08]: I find it interesting you called LLMs writing code on the back end deterministic, but okay.Swyx [00:26:14]: you write it onceVibhu [00:26:15]: Compare it toSwyx [00:26:16]: And then you execute.Ethan [00:26:17]: If you think about the cost, say, let’s say H100 costs $1 per hour, and if you use this eight hours a day and thirty days, so, every month you’re paying this two forty, you’ll actually not wanna pay for that. That’s even more expensive than Cloud Code Max. But if you think about the compute costs come down like two times every year, and I think the future will likely arrive like within few years.Vibhu [00:26:49]: It’s everything, right? compute cost comes down, compute gets faster, model gets smarterEthan [00:26:54]: More efficientVibhu [00:26:54]: model gets smaller.Swyx [00:26:55]: I don’t know why you say two times, ‘cause I think it’s like 100 times. In language models, it is roughly one hundred to a thousand times every twelve to eighteen months, for the same given level of LMSys, ELO.Vibhu [00:27:08]: That’s a net of everything, right? That’s model performance alongside compute. So different than just compute costs come down. But, a very interesting future.Swyx [00:27:19]: So the web designers will have to shout out that accessibility is an issue, right? how do you deal with screen readers or whatever. But yes, this is higher bandwidth storytelling than anything you can possibly generate with code, right? So I think that’s the rough idea.Ethan [00:27:34]: And I’d like to add a little bit that so human naturally have the maximum bandwidth when we are looking at things, look at videos, and we also have maximum output bandwidth when we are talking. So in the future, it might be something like we talk to AI models, and the AI model responds back with a generative UI. So that would be the maximum input and output bandwidth to interact with AI models before neural link happens.Vibhu [00:28:06]: And it’s also very custom, right? Some people are very visual, some people are not as visual, right? They prefer the text. But the best thing about generative UI, right, it can also be text.Swyx [00:28:17]: There’s another project that we wanted to highlight, which is the Neural OS. Kinda similar idea, but here you’re literally operating, simulating an operating system with a video model.Swyx [00:28:27]: and you can play Doom, you can do Firefox. I find this like mildly less impressive, obviously, because it’s an OS that I can run.Swyx [00:28:37]: But here everything is imagined.Vibhu [00:28:40]: I was, used to the Command+W to close the Firefox tab. It didn’t crash. That’s why I saidSwyx [00:28:45]: It’s too immersive.Vibhu [00:28:46]: It’s, it’s too immersive for me.Swyx [00:28:47]: Too immersive.Vibhu [00:28:48]: I wanted to close the tab.Vibhu [00:28:49]: But yes, I can play generated diffusion.Swyx [00:28:51]: this is shockingly fast.Swyx [00:28:54]: Because I remember there was a demo about like maybe one to two years ago. Someone tried to do the first-person shooter with a image model. There was no consistency. It was very slow. But here it looks like realistically it’s-- this is Doom.Vibhu [00:29:07]: I think there’s two sides to that, right? There’s okay, what is running a game? The heavy part of it is actually the game engine, all the lighting, all that stuff, the graphics. This is just kind of video, right? Like we’ve solved consistency. This is still, it looks like a few years old image generation. There’s some temporal consistency, but it’s, it’s kind of just images stitched together as frame video. But it’s a good visual representation to pi- to picture the future you wanna see, right? that’s, that’s what I see in these more so.Ethan [00:29:38]: This reminds me of how the video models gets better and better. So Neural OS is kinda if you just look at it feels like it’s just a crappy version of the, like the Windows we could have, right? And, but the difference is, so the model, this model is overfitted on the existing operating systems. It can generate nothing different than that. But it’s actually also similar to video models. So when we are training these video model, image model, we train them on internet. There’s no imaginary supernatural stuff on the internet. But once we train this model, you can prompt the model to generate something supernatural that have never existed in the data set. So if you train your Neural OS or neural computer on the standard screen recordings on the entire internet. The model can imagine completely new interface to interact with the computer.Swyx [00:30:43]: This is one of those things that is magical to me. usually generalizing out of distribution is bad, but somehow we have learned some kind of internal world model that you say, this plus, but it looks like rainbows and butterflies, it’ll do it and it will kind of make sense.Swyx [00:31:03]: So yeah, that’s kind of cool. Yeah, I don’t know if there’s any comment more on there. I do, I do wanted to, I did wanted to touch a little bit more on the model architecture stuff, which I think you were getting. It’s, really fascinating. We don’t get a chance to talk about this enough. So one of the papers that we covered, we’ve covered every annual, segment anything release. and I don’t know if you follow-- you’re a computer vision guy, so youEthan [00:31:26]: I knowSwyx [00:31:27]: . So they did memory attention, which is kind of interesting. And I always think, anything where you can, across the temporal dimension, keep some consistency, I think it’s, very fascinating, and I don’t know if Basically, does that-- the CV side bleeding into video gen side, I think is underexplored, right? we talk about it for labeling, but actually you can borrow the architecture itself.Ethan [00:31:50]: There’s, there’s also complete different approaches, right? you brought up the term world model, so we went from video model to world model. There is diffusion, but there’s also other approaches that people are doing. So maybe we get into those after as well,?Swyx [00:32:03]: He has a whole definition of world models and stuff. I feel like we threw a lot at you. Whatever you want to comment on.Why Video Models Are Expensive: Storage, I/O, and Training ScaleEthan [00:32:10]: I think one thing that we should actually comment back on is okay, so we were talking about the steps to train image gen to video model. One thing we don’t see as much of is okay, you brought up the delta in training data, right? SoEthan [00:32:24]: you won’t have as much a video model might not generalize, but what is the cost of training a large video model? So we know for LLMs roughly, okay, even like the poolside thing that came out today, right? It’s a Gemma level model trained on roughly forty trillion tokens at this many H200s over this much time, right? You can see what is the exact cost of that. So how many GPU hours over how much H200 costs? So how do we do the back-end math of, same thing for video models, image models. How do you, how do you kind of break that down? I can share some back-envelope calculation. So surprisingly, video models is-- the cost is very-- is comparable to language models and obviously the largest scale is language model, maybe like a medium scale to language models. I said just storing the videos alone, it costs a lot. You can, you can maybe look up on AWS or something.Ethan [00:33:20]: You really, say if you have a billion videos and let’s say, let’s just say like each video, like five megabyte, then you need five petabyte to just store those videos. And also remember we talk about you use a VAE to compress the videos, and you also need to store, typically you need to store those continuous feature, in-- also in your storage. That’s also comparable size with the videos themselves. So just storing these videos and the features is tens of petabytes alone. And,Swyx [00:33:58]: I just, I just looked up the calculation. Five petabytes on S3 Standard is one hundred K per month.Ethan [00:34:05]: AndSwyx [00:34:05]: It’s comparableEthan [00:34:05]: and you needSwyx [00:34:06]: AndEthan [00:34:06]: And then like tens of petabytes, two hundred K. And even more expensive is you have the ingress and egress.Swyx [00:34:13]: Oh, yeah.Ethan [00:34:14]: Like you-- through the internet. You have to just to download those videos, I believe it’s, it’s more expensive on AWS than just storing those videos.Swyx [00:34:25]: Storing, yeah.Ethan [00:34:25]: And each training runs, you probably need to pull them once. If you train multiple times, it’s, it’s even more than that. So it’s like just storing the network, those costs is just, it would be a few, a few millions per month to just storing everything, not to mention the GPU cost.Ethan [00:34:45]: AndSwyx [00:34:45]: my side tangent, the compute rental, like GPU rental is very efficient. There’s one side, okay, you can be XAI and build your data center. Should we not just build our, storage compute as well? LikeEthan [00:34:57]: Of courseSwyx [00:34:57]: cloud cost compared to just,Ethan [00:34:59]: You save so muchSwyx [00:35:00]: store. Yeah, exactly.Swyx [00:35:01]: Especially with like egress and stuff. So.Ethan [00:35:04]: That’s a good idea, but it also comes to-- there are some of its own challenges.Swyx [00:35:09]: Of course, of course.Ethan [00:35:10]: like people who build the GPU data centers, they might not expect this much, storage. And yeah, people build storage, typically they just build it somewhere with just CPUs.Swyx [00:35:23]: I just looked it up. Five-- AWS only charges for egress, not ingress. Tier five for five petabytes is two hundred and thirty K.Ethan [00:35:32]: Even more expensive than the storage.Swyx [00:35:34]: But storing is per month, right? You check in, then you cannot check out. so it’s so cool. It’s okay. So there’s that side.Ethan [00:35:41]: So the TLDR, my backhand mathSwyx [00:35:42]: Data is larger than you think. Yes.Ethan [00:35:44]: my backhand math of GPU hours times GPU cost is also very much, I’m missing some storage.Swyx [00:35:49]: You’re also-- you’re basically like also more IO bound than normal training.Swyx [00:35:55]: Yes. ‘Cause like data loading, so caching everything, it becomes super important.Ethan [00:36:00]: So in Cosmos, we did a lot of optimizations to make it not IO bound. So, speaking of the training, actually training the model, the GPU cost, if you look up like the open source model, how big these video models are, I think like LTX has nineteen B parameters. That’s a dense model. And people are also exploring, MoEs, so it might be twenty B active and, like a hun- hundreds B, total. So that’s, that’s even-- that’s similar size as medium-sized LLM models. And if you, if you look at number of tokens-Uh, we disclose that in Cosmos. It’s also like tens of trillions of tokens on the visual tokens. So putting this together, the cost of, training these video models, it’s actually comparable with LLMs. Not to mention, the infra is slightly different from LLM, so it might be less efficient to train these models.Inference Speedups: Step Distillation, Consistency Models, and GANsSwyx [00:37:04]: Do you get the benefits of traditional diffusion speed-up? So for, images, there’s LCM, LoRAs for, fine-tuning. There’s, there’s a lot of stuff that’s beenEthan [00:37:15]: Flow matching.Swyx [00:37:16]: there’s flow matching. There’s a lot of stuff that’s been done. there’s some overlap that applies to diffusion on the inference side and stuff or?Ethan [00:37:23]: so the difference-- the inference side is a completely different story.Ethan [00:37:28]: I think for the training side, it might be a little bit hard to reduce that cost. And for the inference side, the biggest gain is from the distillation of these models. You can-- It’s called step distillation, slightly different from knowledge distillation in LLMs. So you-- Typically, for flow matching models, you need like 100 steps or something. Like a distortion model even need even more, like 1,000 steps to generate a good image or video. A step distillation is try to learn to generate fewer step from the model itself. It’s kind of like now we-- you use the full model to generate in 100 steps, and then you take a model that only generate 10 steps and let that model to learn from the perfect one.Ethan [00:38:25]: why this workSwyx [00:38:27]: Strong to weak seemingly.Ethan [00:38:28]: It is. It’s kind ofSwyx [00:38:29]: DistillationEthan [00:38:29]: kind of like strong to weak. the-- from the modeling perspective, the strong model, the teacher model is trying to model the image and videos of inter-internet, and that distribution is extremely complex. But the step distilled model is just trying to learn from the teacher. The teacher is a model, and the size is fixed, as the distribution is much simpler than the whole internet. That’s the intuition I have why step distillation can work. So usually these models serve in productions, they only run in a few steps. In Cosmos, I believe we have, we have like four step and eight steps. If you do some simpler task, image-image translation, it can even run in fewer step, like one step in Cosmos Transfer.Swyx [00:39:22]: I think this is the same intuition that guides a lot of the consistency model work. I sent you a link for, SCM. I don’t know if you covered that. To me, that was actually one of, the most impressive papers I’ve ever seen from OpenAI.Swyx [00:39:34]: That this is the unifying grand concept of consistency models. I don’t know if you have any comments on this.Ethan [00:39:41]: So there are, there are a few different approaches,Swyx [00:39:46]: Oh, yeah. Here it is.Swyx [00:39:47]: Two steps versus twenty or 100 steps, whatever. It’s already done.Ethan [00:39:52]: So there are, there are a few different approaches, for example, consistency model, and there are also Actually, we shouldn’t forget GAN. So GAN, actually, that was, that was the OG ofSwyx [00:40:05]: OGEthan [00:40:05]: step distillation ‘cause it trained just one step to begin with. So actually, a lot of, uh-- For example, there’s a distribution matching distillation which use, which uses GAN, as one of the laws for distillation. It-- GAN just tells you, “Hey, generate an image,” and thenEthan [00:40:31]: it has a discriminator to tell, is this image real or not? So the model, the model just need to learn one of the distribution, not the full distribution. Because in training, the model is asked to reconstruct the ground truth image from the internet, which is extremely hard. And in-- When you’re training GAN, it’s a step process. It’s just a, “Hey, you generate image. Does this image look as real as the image from the internet?” Which is a much simpler task. And, yeah, combining a lot of these approaches together, people typically do that, like consistency model and distribution matching and GAN, and we can get these few step models.Audio-Video Generation and Time AlignmentSwyx [00:41:21]: Then there’s one step I wanted to add, which is audio and video.Ethan [00:41:26]: So, Grok Imagine zero point nine, I believe it’s, it’s a first audio video transmodel deployed at a large scale. SoSwyx [00:41:39]: And that was your first model?Ethan [00:41:40]: that was, Grok Imagine’s first model. It’s, it’s audio video, joint generation. I think the hard part is, the modality alignment, ‘cause before this transmodel, we have, we have text to video alignment. We have this, correspondence between text and video. Typically, most of the VLMs, they understand images and videos. Video’s very rare, and they don’t understand audio mostly. And if you look at the audio generation on the LLM side, you can talk to them perfectly fine, but if you ask them to sing a song or something, it typically is not very good. Also, they don’t have, they don’t have music either. The hard part is thatUh, actually audio has two component. It has like a discrete component, a continuous component. The discrete component is like the language.Ethan [00:42:44]: So when we speak, it’s just, someSwyx [00:42:47]: It’s an ASR issue, yeah.Ethan [00:42:49]: It’s, it’s text token with some characteristics, I would say.Ethan [00:42:54]: But musicSwyx [00:42:56]: I think the speech guys would disagree with this.Swyx [00:42:57]: Like disfluencies and then,Vibhu [00:43:00]: There’s tones you can get angry.Ethan [00:43:01]: Well, I say largely.Ethan [00:43:03]: the mu- but the music is completely different. It’s, it’s very continuous, and you cannot model them like discrete tokens in language models. this is like the hard part for models is, not to mention we have to align text, video, and audio together.Ethan [00:43:26]: SoVibhu [00:43:26]: How?Ethan [00:43:28]: So significant-- some significant challenges are like-- So first, like we talk about as the VLMs, they cannot understand most of them cannot understand audio.Ethan [00:43:39]: So you have to have some way to do the synthetic data generation for audio. You have to caption the model, and that involve, that involve synthetic data and human data effort a lot. And not just surprisingly, most of the LLMs are very bad at recognizing, like the beat, tone, and the details of the of music. They can, they can give some general prediction of which song is this, but it’s very hard to describe the details of the music. like we mentioned in image generation, like you have to describe image as detailed as possible so that someone blind can reconstruct that. So here is like someoneVibhu [00:44:32]: DeafEthan [00:44:32]: someone deaf can reconstruct how the music sounds like without actually listening to it. Maybe you can think of it need to have the-- or they call the script.Vibhu [00:44:49]: Subtitles, yeah.Ethan [00:44:49]: You gotta have all the details of the music, and the dialogue.Vibhu [00:44:55]: So is the challenge there typically stuff like music and audio, or is it just Like is there a baseline? Okay, there’s enough data where we can understand, narration, conversation, but there’s nuances in audio that’s where you hit all the data issues or is it just from stage zero, you just do it all right?Ethan [00:45:15]: So one important thing is like the alignment. So the model, the model has to know like the video and audio, the, uh-- it has to have a time-based alignment, like at which time step the video and the audio token correspond to each other. But we actually don’t have this kind of alignment for most of the other modalities. If you think about like text and image, text and video, they are loosely aligned. So you can, you can have a description of what’s going on in the video, but you don’t have to exactly, You typically don’t have exact description, oh, at, time step one second like what happened?Vibhu [00:46:02]: It’s veryEthan [00:46:03]: At time step two second what happenedVibhu [00:46:03]: coarse. Yeah.Swyx [00:46:05]: So what was the ideal time step? You have to oblate it, and then it’s like four seconds or something.Ethan [00:46:09]: So that comes down to how you design the model to, for the model to be aware of as a time, as a time modality. So the model is like a time aware. And that’s something pretty unique if you think about LLMs. So if you ask LLM to complete a task, say they, uh-- you ask them and they will say, “Oh, this task will probably take twelve hours to complete,” and they come back in one hour. Say “I’ve already spent two days on this and I’ve exhausted everything.”Ethan [00:46:47]: So the LLMs them-themselves, they don’t have a sense of time there.Vibhu [00:46:53]: I actually don’t think that’s just them not having a sense of time. I think it’s somewhat based, right?Vibhu [00:46:58]: Like you tell someone, “Okay, go work on this feature. Go implement this,” there’s a general understanding you would have of how long that would take without LLMs working at LLM speed, right? So you think back like two years ago, if I tell you to like build me like a new front end for latent space, have a search bar, have all this, you’ll estimate that it’ll take a few days, right?Vibhu [00:47:19]: So you tell an LLM, “Go build this.” It’ll take me a few days. But I think it’s somewhat grounded as opposed to them not having the best-- Not saying that they have a great understanding, but I think that example is like you can see where it comes from, right? You’re trained on all over the text.Swyx [00:47:35]: They’re, they’re trying to estimate what a human would say.Vibhu [00:47:37]: because that’s what the, that’s what the data kind of represents. It’s not themEthan [00:47:41]: It came from the corpus on the internet. People have a estimate of how much time.Vibhu [00:47:45]: And not even just in direct like training samples, right? Just your world understanding of tokens of how long stuff takes, right? Go read a book. It’ll take you a while, right?Vibhu [00:47:56]: Even if you do nothing but read a book, it takes a few days. So yeah, LLM, I read it took me a few hours.Vibhu [00:48:01]: It’ll take me a few hours to go through this research. But this is a tangent.Swyx [00:48:05]: Somewhat, yeah.Swyx [00:48:06]: This is a train of thought I haven’t really expressed until now is, which is basically like a full world model must also be recursive, meaning that the participant in the world model must also be aware that they have a world model. which is like this whole recursive thing down the, down the line. but yes, and that the world model can be wrong and that they need to update it and blah. Yeah. We’ve, argued this on the, newsletter as well, that there needs to be sort of recursive or adversarial world models.World Models: Real-Time, Long-Horizon, Interactive VideoVibhu [00:48:34]: just, to ask, how do you define world model?Swyx [00:48:38]: Oh, yeah, let’s go there.Ethan [00:48:40]: SoVibhu [00:48:40]: So just for context, we talked about, video generation, and then there’s a-- if you say there’s a distinction between world models, what’s your, what’s your definition? How do you see the two?Ethan [00:48:53]: So disclaimer, I’m not going to debate, what is world model. Yeah. there are many definitions, so I’ll just talk about my definition. Since I came from the multi-model, multi-model domain, so mainly talking from video. So world model is like real-time interactive long horizon videos. So there are three parts. so we-- let’s talk about them one by one. So the so interaction, so we just, we just look at Facebook and neural computer. So the interaction part of it, so you, world model can allow you to interact with them through keyboard, mouse, and maybe also voice. So these all is-- all is a modality. You can, you can interact with the model, and the model should respond reasonably. Second part is real time. So once you, once, say, you move your mouse, if, say, the world model generate a game, how fast can the game respond? So if you’re like professional CS: GO players- -my say, oh, you have to respond- He’s beginner within sub ten milliseconds or- Yeah even less. So that’s not most of the- No, sixty FPS. Let’s go. Oh, three hundred FPS. Oh, five hundred FPS. Wait. okay, yeah. I didn’t do the math, but yeah, okay. Uh- Yeah, three hundred FPS, that’s a three millisecond. So you have to respond- Oh, s**t. Okay. YeahEthan [00:50:29]: within a millisecond. Most of the video models cannot do that. Yeah. And, but if you, say, if you have a video model that is, say, like a digital human, the response time might be more generous. Maybe typically, for real-time voice interaction, it’s like two hundred millisecond. So that’s, that’s much more generous. But even two hundred millisecond is pretty, it is pretty tricky, ‘cause remember we mentionedEthan [00:51:01]: you have this, temporal compression coming from the VAE. So if you, if you don’t compress the temporal dimension, your sequence length is going to explode. So if you want to have this real-time, real-timeness in your model, you have to do is one context problem. And the third part is long horizon, ‘cause we-- if you’re not going to just play with, video games just, a few seconds, most video models only a few seconds. We’re going to play with minutes, hours. The model have to be able to generate long-form content.Ethan [00:51:42]: So putting these three together, it’s, real-time, long horizon interactive videos. I think the final state will be, for example, like a video, a video version of Playbook, where you can, you can interact with, a neural computer. You move your mouse, and you click on the generative interface, and it will reply to you through pixels- generating in real time. But getting there, it’s, it’s a very long way to get there. So one of the first step, at Grok Imagine, where I led a small world model team there, was to build video extension. So, video extension- it’s the first step of interactivity. Yeah. It’s, it’s the first step. Yeah. So it’s the first step- You have it here, video editing, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the first step is because, this unlocks long horizon videos. Typically, for most of the video generation models, you give it a prompt or an image as an initial frame. You generate video, that’s it. That’s just, one time, done. And some creators would try to, use the last frame as a first frame for the second video. It can-- sometimes it works, but if you do it a few times, it says the quality would decrease. And- It doesn’t have that context- Yeah over the full video, so the temporal- Yeah, exactly. Yeah, ‘cause you only gave it the last frame, of course, right? Yeah. Exactly. And- it’s actually a pretty fun hack. if you’ve seen like- Oh, no, he’s saying something better. Yeah. And for example, like Vue, I remember Vue 3 has like a second context of the last video. It is slightly better than using the last frame, but it has the same problem-- similar problem that it, the quality would decrease. if you extend a few times to, one minute, the video quality would look much worse than the first video. Second, another problem is that the model doesn’t have long-range knowledge of, what’s happening before. Say, if they generate some dialogue, some, two people speaking, and their voice might change, over some time, especially if the second conditioning, it does not cover the previous context. So these are the core challenges. So the Grok Imagine video extension, it has historical context of all of the previous generated videos. It can, It has, it has the context of, who is speaking and what objects have appeared and everything, having that to generate the next video. So if we naively do this, you can imagine, just, put all of the previous history video tokens into the context. The context lens will easily explode. Especially for video models, that can be like a few, a few million context, I would imagine- context lens. Yes.Yeah.Swyx [00:54:58]: Let’s run with that.Ethan [00:54:59]: for example, like in Cosmos, I think just five seconds of video is like a fifty K or sixty K number of tokens. So like if you do, if you do fifty second, that’s a five hundred K tokens. If you do longer than that, easily explode. This long horizon, problem was the first step we’re trying to solve world model. It turns out people, yeah, people love video extension. Like a lot, a lot of the creators love using video extension to create longer form videos. This is the part I liked that you have a, you have an intermediate step toward the final goal instead of just a straight shot to the final version very much.Swyx [00:55:48]: But I can see you have a strong vision of where we want to end up.Long Context, Redundancy, and Efficient Interactive VideoVibhu [00:55:51]: Does it seem like it’s an efficiency issue? okay, we’re at a few million tokens context,. If you draw the parallel to language models, we had very short context, two thousand, eight thousand, then, you scale it up one million, ten million. sure, there’s effective context, but at the end of the day, it’s just what’s it worth? sure, there’s a whole training data side. In video, it might be slightly easier ‘cause we have a hundred million token video, right? Just take a movie with the full context there. Like is this efficiency from an inference standpoint that like it’s expensive, but we know how to solve it? Or like why is this not the approach? So like my broader point was on your second point of world models, you say it needs to be interactive and live, right? You should be able to play a game and see the interaction live. So one thing I see with research is a lot of what you actually serve is different than what you build, right? So we talked about distillation. You train big model, you distill it, you do quantization, speculative decoding. We do all this stuff to serve it efficiently. Should we not just have a solution, like a world model that can interact well, do inference optimization, serve it, distill it secondary, so make it real time after you solve it? So like a-- another parallel is say, continual learning, right? What we need is someone to solve it and show it works inefficiently. Give it a few years, people will make it efficient. Same thing with regular attention, right? It worked. Over a few years, people have different forms of attention, and we’ve scaled it to be efficient at log context,? So kind of two things there, right? One is it seems like it works. You’ve scaled it. Can we not just scale it a lot more efficiently over time? Do we need a separate approach if this works? And same thing with interaction, right? if we can get it done, like if we can solve some way that it works, we can solve making it more efficient from an inference standpoint later.Ethan [00:57:53]: that’s actually a very good point. So in videos, there’s actually a lot of redundancies. So we solve a lot of the pixel redundancy from VE, but there’s more redundancy in long range and long horizon videos. Say, if a character appear in the first clip and then it disappeared, it only reappear at the end of the video, you probably don’t need the-- the context, like in the middle of the generation. So you only need that character, where you need. So that’s why, I helped build another feature. It’s a reference video.Vibhu [00:58:36]: Is it here?Swyx [00:58:36]: is it the same model release or different one?Ethan [00:58:39]: It’s a different one.Ethan [00:58:41]: You probably need to search onSwyx [00:58:43]: I’ll find itEthan [00:58:43]: X reference to video.Ethan [00:58:46]: So reference video allow you to like upload up to seven images as condition and generate the video. Say, if like I want-- it can, it can be characters or objects or even scenes. Say like I want, I want condition on, Sean’s selfie and holding a bladeSwyx [00:59:07]: We have a dogEthan [00:59:08]: or whatever.Swyx [00:59:08]: We put the dog in the thing.Ethan [00:59:09]: you can put them there and the video models will generate the video from and copies the context over. So that can solve a lot of the problems there, like the long context problem. It doesn’t need to have a very long context, but it’s-- I feel like it’s an intermediate solution. The modelSwyx [00:59:29]: It’s cheating.Ethan [00:59:30]: the model should be able to like selectively know, where should I draw the references. So say if I want to generate a movie, I generate it autoregressive, like a ten second at a time or something. And now this character appear, I can look back to where it first appear and, bring that back. Yeah, this one, I put the references. Yeah, that’s, Optimus, Einstein myself, Annie.Vibhu [01:00:02]: Oddly enough, I used Grok Search to find it, and it pulled your LinkedIn post. But yeah we found it.Ethan [01:00:08]: Interesting.Vibhu [01:00:10]: ButxAI’s Underrated Work, Culture, and WatermarkingSwyx [01:00:11]: this is a problem. This is not your fault, but like XAI doesn’t communicate all this work that you do very well because they just have the model release and then that’s it. But actually, these details are very good.Swyx [01:00:22]: As far as I understand, everything you just described is state-art, like no one else has done it.Vibhu [01:00:30]: A lot of-- yeah, I have a lot moreSwyx [01:00:32]: And then, and then you just put this blog post with the cookies. I’m this is not enough,?Swyx [01:00:37]: but I, obviously this is like the high level numbers that people want to know. But no, okay, soVibhu [01:00:42]: And I wonder, like part of that is also some labs don’t share research into what happens. And ifSwyx [01:00:50]: No, but this is literally bragging about how good they are, right?Swyx [01:00:54]: Like, why would you not say that you are capable of extending with full context? this is not a secret sauce. This is like we did the work. yeah, I don’t know.Ethan [01:01:02]: different labs have slightly different communication styles.Swyx [01:01:07]: Anyway, if anyone from XAI is listening we are always happy to help you tell your story. Yeah, okay, so you did references, and I think, I think kind of the point you’re, you’re making is it is sort of like a kludge, right? this is-- you can do seven, but what about 100?Swyx [01:01:23]: Right? Then you need a completely different thing.Ethan [01:01:26]: So I think it’s-- this is, a mechanism to, select the context from the history, and you might not put the entire history into the context. for example, there’s a paper called Frame Pack, which haveEthan [01:01:41]: a heuristic that the latest history, the last one second, I put the entire history, and the history before that, I would, compress it and makes the video smaller. So they follow this pattern, this build overall pattern that the maximum sequence length is fixed. So the further you are from the current frame, you have a smaller image. So this is just a heuristic. I think it can be more automatic. The model is aware like which history part of it can be select. So this part of the research is actually being actively, worked on by a lot of people. It’s also quite interesting. I feel this is actually, this part of long context is a little bit ahead of the LLM part.Ethan [01:02:31]: So for example, like in LLMs, if you-- so contexts keep growing. Let’s say if you call tool and the tool call history is extremely long, that’s still in context, and keep growing, keep growing. Even if you switch the topic to something else, the whole context was there. There are some agentic harnesses that help you to, say, prune the tool results and, prune Like when you, when you query a file, only show like the top 200 lines or something. Those were very heuristic-driven.Swyx [01:03:08]: For listeners, we did a write-up on the cloud code, leak where there are eight different kinds of pruning, including like you prune the tool results and all that. So you can, you can read up on that kind of thing.Ethan [01:03:17]: I think, one breakthrough in continual learning might be like a way to automatically, manage its own context.Swyx [01:03:27]: These are all heuristics, and they will be replaced by machine learning.Ethan [01:03:30]: InterestinglyVibhu [01:03:32]: TheEthan [01:03:32]: the same thing is being researched in both LLMs and video models.Vibhu [01:03:36]: The interesting thing is also like in the paper you showed, it’s actually happening at the model level, right? Compared to like language models, sure, we have base attention, but we’ll do our own compression, we’ll do our own pruning, which is separate from model error.Vibhu [01:03:49]: Eventually, it all just boils in, hopefully.Swyx [01:03:52]: I think this is a form of like attention, but like also know sort of reasoning attention. I feel like that’s different than normal attention.Swyx [01:04:03]: Does that, does that make sense?Ethan [01:04:04]: It’s, it’s different in the sense that attention, not to mention, set sparse attention aside, like normal attentionSwyx [01:04:13]: Like UKV, yeahEthan [01:04:14]: you have to attend to all of the tokens.Ethan [01:04:17]: So you don’t have a high-level mechanism to drop which tokens do-- you don’t want to attend to. As humans’ attention span is surprisingly small.Ethan [01:04:28]: You can only remember 11 digit of a phone number.Swyx [01:04:32]: But I have feature detection, right? I can detect, oh, that’s a sequence of one, two, three, four in a phone number that is 11 digit.Vibhu [01:04:39]: Very good pattern matchers.Ethan [01:04:41]: But humans’ context can-- like attention can work because we can dynamically pull in, context from different places. The same mechanism, I think is going to happen for LLMs and video models. I think we haveSwyx [01:04:57]: RLMs is recent-- is on, it’s on the recent work is there, which is not that, crazy, but it’s just recursive.Vibhu [01:05:04]: I think it’s somewhat inherent in models too, right? Like youSwyx [01:05:06]: No, here’s a nice example hereVibhu [01:05:07]: you pull up these, you can read it fine, but, language models are also very good at slop parsing. you have a transSwyx [01:05:15]: I throw my typos in there, it doesn’t matter.Vibhu [01:05:17]: You have a, you have a transcript, you have whatever, just throw it in and it’s very good at parsing through noise. m-- that may be a brute force. It can look over a reason over it, but there’s, there’s parallels to both.Swyx [01:05:31]: I think it’s just really fascinating how you relate the world models stuff to the video generation, which I don’t think a lot of people hear directly, from people like you. So I think that’s really helpful. Any other work? Do we cover like video, audio, world models, any other stuff in that omniSwyx [01:05:48]: team,?Vibhu [01:05:49]: Or any other work at XAI you want to talk about? Seems like everything we see publicly announced, “Oh, cool, cookies.” And then there’s so much more to it.Swyx [01:05:58]: There’s a lot of depth.Vibhu [01:05:59]: Any underrated stuff, just at the time there?Ethan [01:06:03]: I feel the, as a culture, it is quite interesting and a bit underrated. So the culture is, the culture is three sentences: move fast, build No goal is too ambitious, and the first principle. Like early, the goal set was very ambitious. It wasn’t very-- this wasn’t-- it wasn’t possible to achieve when I, when I was thinking, first thinking about it. Like for example, like build something in three months. AndVibhu [01:06:36]: Was that “Okay, we’re starting team, we want image, we want video. Do it by this deadline.” Or, how do you work back? Like was it just, “Okay, we have a rough by, this date we want something out,” or is this likeEthan [01:06:52]: That’s a very good point. So it’s from first principle thinking.Ethan [01:06:56]: If you think about, people might say that first principle thinking applied more to the physical world than the models. I would say, for example, like if you think about-Some limitation, for example, acquiring data, like how fast can we acquire the videos? And if you think about training the models, what’s the iteration speed for training a model end? And how would adding more GPUs accelerate that timeline? And maybe if you need human data, like what’s the turnaround time for human data to arrive? If you put all of those together, that is first principle thinking where, oh, like what is the timeline? What’s the minimum number of days that is possible to achieve something?Swyx [01:07:52]: I think there’s a-- this is a lot of Elon’s type of thinking, right? He’s like-- I think he’s famous for saying that the only law you can’t break is the laws of physics, something like that.Swyx [01:08:01]: Just broadly, you worked a lot with Elon.Ethan [01:08:04]: I, one benefit is working at xAI, you got a chance to interact more with Elon. So I was very fortunate to get a few retweets from him, and that was quite fun. And, he also worked very closely, with people. like people imagine online, like he’s very hands-on.Vibhu [01:08:34]: There are two things. one-- So I was actually looking up, Elon retweeting you. I’ll pull it up. he talked about you tweeting that you have a really good voice mode. I don’t knowEthan [01:08:47]: Oh, me?Vibhu [01:08:47]: No. Him.Swyx [01:08:48]: Oh, I also did it. But anyway.Vibhu [01:08:49]: I actually-- So I would DM you feedback on voice mode because I was “Wow, really good.” And then I’m “Ugh, this sucks.” But, I don’t know. Anything you want to talk about your voice mode, building it? Was it a team you worked on as well?Ethan [01:09:02]: Oh, that’s actually not part of the team I worked on.Swyx [01:09:05]: He probably worked on more of the video. No, but Grok Voice actuallyVibhu [01:09:11]: Grok VoiceSwyx [01:09:11]: like very good. I-- This is one of those things where first of all, you can speak at 2X, which is fun.Swyx [01:09:16]: which I listen to 2X, so I like to speak at 2X. But also I think like the interruption was better than Gemini. I don’t know how it compares to ChatGPT real time now, but as far as like driving was concerned, like having Grok in my Tesla and like driving, I think it was like-- it’s a really good experience.Vibhu [01:09:34]: He likes voice mode. But also, just the crazy reach by ElonSwyx [01:09:40]: Fifty million views for just saying, “Yes, true.”Vibhu [01:09:43]: That’s true.Swyx [01:09:44]: Oh my GodVibhu [01:09:45]: but, it’s, it’s pretty cool how fast it came out. the other thing is the safety aspect of video mode. Anything interesting to talk about there? SoSwyx [01:09:56]: spicyVibhu [01:09:57]: spicy question.Ethan [01:09:58]: A lot of the countries where they don’t allow like a generative data-- generative AI videos without watermarks. So in all of the-- those countries, Grok Imagine had watermarks, and a lot of the-- a lot of the takedowns of the videos were also happening extremely fast.Swyx [01:10:22]: it’s, it’s part of running a social platform but also it transfers nicely to the GenAI side. Do you have a perspective on SynthID versus other kinds of watermarking?Ethan [01:10:33]: it’s going to beEthan [01:10:37]: it’s going to be harder and harder to detect, the Yeah, these things. So SynthID, one thing is, previously it was only Google, and now, like a lot of different labsSwyx [01:10:52]: OpenAI adopted itEthan [01:10:52]: are also adapting it.Ethan [01:10:54]: As-- A limitation is like the technology The paper was out there, and people can reverse engineer like how to get rid of it.Ethan [01:11:05]: And it’s-- I think even as it advance, it’s, it’s still possible to reverse engineer it.Swyx [01:11:13]: so if you are interested, you can go onto Reddit and people have taken out the exact I don’t know, what do you call it? Mask or pattern that Google applies, and then you can apply it onto any Google-generated photo, and you can reverse out the SynthID.Ethan [01:11:30]: And it’s, it’s also harder and harder to just judge by eyes. I remember like a couple years ago, there was like six fingers or something. It’s very obvious.Vibhu [01:11:42]: My current is actually the audio. I feel like the audio is really lacking. my way to tell if something is generated, outside of okay, I think I’ve seen enough, I have a decent eye, the audio matchup, especially of Sora, is not great. It’s all similar style. But there’sSwyx [01:11:57]: I see. those are minor imperfections.Swyx [01:11:59]: I think the point is that like-- Actually, my closest reference to this is also Ian Goodfellow, ‘cause I think he did like the adversarial GAN thing where like it’s okay, here’s a picture of a zebra. Then you like change one pixel, and it becomes a panda.Swyx [01:12:12]: Right? This is like-- this is like a classic computer vision issue.Ethan [01:12:15]: If you think about how these models were trained, like I, like I mentioned before, like GAN was in the training process. The objective of GAN is you-- is the model generates an image, and the model, there’s a judge to tell like if the image is real or not. The model is trained to make the image more real. So as the model become more and more advanced, it’s going to be harder and harder. For me personally, now I have to judge byEthan [01:12:49]: if the-- these videos have logical sense.Ethan [01:12:53]: If these, this videoSwyx [01:12:55]: Have a world model.Swyx [01:12:57]: No, I also like it-- the audio is too nice, like too studio quality. The lighting is too good. The skin is too clear. the-- basically, the lack of imperfections.Vibhu [01:13:10]: Do we have a good way to do reasoning in diffusion? Like is that what separates video generators from world models or in, -We really know how to apply it to other regressive language models. Is there a parallel for diffusion video gen world models like on that point, right? IsSwyx [01:13:30]: He has a thing on video agents.Ethan [01:13:31]: that’s a good question. Yeah, actually, I have a, I have a pretty big claim. The intelli- the visual intelligence are actually mostly coming from language. these video models, especially from now, since the diffusion model technology is more mature, the every time you see there is some improvement on these models, I would say mostly, this, again, comes from language model, not coming from the vid- the video model itself, like the video distribution models themselves. In Cosmos, that could be Typically these models, they have two parts. there’s a, there’s a prompt rewriter or the prompt up sampler part. I think in Cosmos, we use Llama or we use Mix- Mixtro. And the Cosmos video model itself is only 7B, and the model, the language modelPrompt Rewriting, Video Agents, and Agentic GenerationEthan [01:14:35]: is a prompt rewriter. It’s, it’s bigger than that. So the prompt rewriter’s task is to take user instruction and convert it to extremely detailed description of the video. So because the video, the visual-- the video distribution models, I would describe, they’re kinda dumb because they take the inputEthan [01:15:03]: instruction literally. Because in the training process, remember that we have to describe the video as detailed as possible when we’re creating the synthetic, text pair. So this model, they take those kind of instruction to generate the videos. So in-- when you’re taking the user instructions, the user instruction usually are simple. Just say a cat or something. If you put a cat in the video model, they would take that instruction literally. They would literally show a cat, a cat in maybe a white background because you didn’t describe the background. The cat is not moving because you didn’t describe it. It takes the instruction quite literally. It’s kinda, it’s kinda dumb. The prompt rewriter is actually a much bigger model. It’s a language model that takes, the user instruction and expand it. So the thinking process you mentioned, is from there. So if you, if you look at like GPT image, like you generate a image in three minutes. Three minute is not all like a pixel generation. A lot of time is spendingVibhu [01:16:19]: Prompt writingEthan [01:16:19]: on thinking.Ethan [01:16:20]: So prompt rewriting now have evolved to, not only just as thinking, it can, it can also be a agent, a agentic model. For example, say you want, you wanted to generate the image of today’s news. So the-- So it’s likely they’ll go to fetch today’s news online and then, process and digest them, then organize the layout and generate it. Another thing quite interesting is,Vibhu [01:16:53]: If I’m not mistaken, these are-- it’s no longer a diffusion model though, right? It’s autoregressively Or is there stillEthan [01:17:02]: There are different approaches. For example, Gemini Omni. Since they said it’s Omni, I believe it’s a, it’s a single model. Maybe it’s something it’s a language model with a diffusion head or something. Like the language model do the thinking, do the agentic tool calling, and then it would, use the diffusion head to generate the image in the end. There were also approaches like Cosmos, where you have a separate language model and separate diffusion models. And there were also like a purely language model, like you discretize the images, and then you generate the image as discrete tokens. So there are different approaches. I would say likeVibhu [01:17:44]: One of, one of the claims I’ve seen for why these approaches struggle is because a lot of the benefits for how we currently learn reasoning with language models is you basically iteratively generate reason. You have your thought, and then you work on that answer, right? So if you have like Omni model and then diffusion head, you can’t feed that back in to continue reasoning, right? So you can’t go like text, image, text, image. You can’t reason on the output and then go back to diffusion. But in the new Gemini Omni, you would be able to, as long as you have diffusion.Ethan [01:18:15]: I’m not sure ifVibhu [01:18:16]: ButEthan [01:18:16]: they have that process. it’s definitely possible in the Omni paradigm.Ethan [01:18:22]: So if you think about like traditional multi-model language model, they would have a VIT encoder that can encode the image. So if they have a diffusion head, they can generate the image and then put that back into the VIT encoder, encode that, and then do the iterative refinement if the result Yeah.Swyx [01:18:44]: I think you have to jointly train the VIT and the diffusion to make that somewhat reasonable, ‘cause otherwise you’re kind of mismatching or feeding in slop.Vibhu [01:18:55]: I think it depends on the stage of training. You might be able to freeze it. But anyway, also just on your earlierSwyx [01:19:00]: Wait. I wanted to also make explicit. We do know that NanoBanana and GPT image are autoregressive, language model with diffusion head.Swyx [01:19:09]: as far as I can tell from your description of Grok image, it is not. It is, it is end.Ethan [01:19:14]: I cannotSwyx [01:19:15]: You cannotEthan [01:19:15]: comment on that.Swyx [01:19:16]: Well, the way that you described it. but, yeah, I think it-- there’s, there’s different approaches, right? Like you started off saying prompt rewriter is, the-- a big part of the intelligence.Vibhu [01:19:24]: and even on that, I think everyone should try using an early diffusion model. If you’ve used Stable Diffusion one or whatever, if you’ve seen the prompts ultra-high res, four K this style, oh my God, the first time I tried one, you don’t talk to them like language models, right? Your prompting is very, comma separatedSwyx [01:19:43]: It’s literally talking in the labels that were in the data set, right?Swyx [01:19:46]: But basically, I’m just trying to make the point that prompt writer and then image is different from autoregressive language model with diffusion hit. Right? They’re different things.Ethan [01:19:56]: they’re different.Swyx [01:19:57]: Just wanted to establish.Ethan [01:19:59]: I’d say, the common part is, the image part. So it’s, it’s quite surprising that, a lot of the improvement came from theSwyx [01:20:12]: Language sideEthan [01:20:12]: the thinking the tool calling. So I still remember, in Cosmos, I generated a happy sheep and can if without any rewriting, it’s-- it looks so, CGI, and after rewrite it looks, it looks so beautiful.Ethan [01:20:31]: I thinkSwyx [01:20:32]: Without any joint training.Ethan [01:20:34]: actually, without any joint training. it’s-- with rewriting, it’s already much better. See, a very interesting thing, what happened is the video agents, mostly language models, will call these, generative model, either it’s a separate model or a diffusion head or whatever, as tool. So this model can iteratively refine the results or even, generate longer content through a very long train of thought. It’s actually very similar to how human create art. So we don’t, we don’t generate the pixels directly. We literally draw something on And I think through this process, the-- these models not only use diffusion as one of the tool, it can also use traditional tool. It can also use, image editing tools from Photoshop. It can use, video editor, FFmpeg, whatever, to take combination of these and the generative AI technology as a, as a set of tool, and they can, they can iteratively create a better, a much better, video for production-grade quality. If you look at existing, professional creators, they don’t, they don’t end at, generating a video from these models. They would take this video to their editor and edit here and there.Swyx [01:22:11]: So much post-production in And sometimes actually, the reason the video is good is not really the video model, it’s actually the editing.Swyx [01:22:21]: And yes, we also are engaged in the same process as well. Would you love to use a video editing model?Ethan [01:22:27]: Actually, there’s, Grok Imagine Agent beta. That was the, that was the first attempt in that direction.Ethan [01:22:38]: So I think, the process would be similar to likeVibhu [01:22:44]: It’s just agent mode.Ethan [01:22:46]: you can, you can ask it toSwyx [01:22:48]: There’s no blog post for itEthan [01:22:49]: maybe generate a minute, video, which is not possible if you ask the same prompt to video models. But this model will ca- literally call different tools to do that.Ethan [01:23:05]: So yeah, this is actually an interesting thing. So when we first released, a video editing model, I see on X some people try the video editing feature with, “Edit this video to be one minute.” ‘cause they didn’t understand how video editing work. Video editing typically is just a removal, add, replace, style transfer, this kind of thing. But that’s actually a valid request under the assumption of video agents. So these agents should be able to understand these kind of, long horizon tasks to be able to easily, create a long-form video. I think this is, this is really fascinating ‘cause it’s kinda take-- it’s taking the same direction as first you have these, assisted-- assisted coding, kind of like tab completion, GitHub Copilot. And from there, you gradually evolve to Codex and Cloud Code, where you do things fully automated. So in agent, in Grok Imagine Agent mode, you can, you can still go in there and do stuff by yourself.Ethan [01:24:22]: gradually, as the model capability increase, it will be able to do everything fully automated.Swyx [01:24:30]: I like that. okay.Ethan [01:24:32]: That’s good.Swyx [01:24:32]: So it looks like it’s still generating.Vibhu [01:24:34]: Also, I did notice the Grok image gen was always very fast. I don’t know if this is something you guys benchmarked, but, this is just a tangent. Compared to what I used to use before the latest OpenAI’s image gen, and same with Gemini Nano Banana, I would oftentimes use Grok just for the speed.Swyx [01:24:54]: It’s, it’s in the benchmark somewhere that’sVibhu [01:24:56]: It’sSwyx [01:24:56]: in the Imagine API blog post that they have all the speed things.Swyx [01:25:00]: it mostly combination of distillation plus inference.Ethan [01:25:04]: There are a bunch of things. we talk about distillation, and if you talk about thinking, if you don’t have any thinking budget, the model can just think three minutes and then come back to you. And also, inferenceThe inference infra team was very talented, and they were, they were able to accelerate a hell lot of these models.Swyx [01:25:27]: my comment on the, on the video agents things, I’m trying to figure out, when people say video agents, when you initially told me about your bet on video agents or your vision for video agents, I was a little bit disappointed. I was “you mean, like models are tapped out, now we have to do agents?” But, I think you have to, right? The question now is, how much model training is it really going to make a difference versus just building a better harness? Like you said the models don’t have to be jointly trained. you can just take an shelf frontier reasoning model, slap it on a harness, give it Grok as a tool. That’s it. That’s your video agent. Doesn’t seem super satisfying. Obviously, you can train and get some more percentage points of per- performance. But, if your central claim that the majority of video or generative media, alpha or whatever, is actually coming from language intelligence and not, image diffusion or video diffusion, then that is the future.Vibhu [01:26:30]: it’s pretty coolSwyx [01:26:31]: It’s just like primarily just weight.Vibhu [01:26:33]: If you pop back at the example, it generated frames. Sorry to interrupt, it’s been saying “Okay, I’m gonna start stitching these frames together.”Swyx [01:26:42]: SoVibhu [01:26:42]: It’s using FFmpeg like using code.Swyx [01:26:43]: This is what GPT Image Pro as well is doing, right?Swyx [01:26:46]: Like, this is also just writing code in the background and then justVibhu [01:26:48]: StitchingSwyx [01:26:49]: doing an image pass on the final output. It feels dissatisfying for the people who want to just train models.Vibhu [01:26:54]: It’s interesting, right? it’s, it’s also somewhat exciting. Like you brought up earlier, a lot of the gains don’t come as much from the video. I think you can see that in the language model space too, right? Anthropic, very good at coding. They’re multimodal, not the best, right? They have basic input PDF, but there’s clearly a disconnect in the quality of their image video processing, audio processing, yet intelligence very top tier. Other labs, Gemini, OpenAI, xAI, you can add modalities, but it’s not like they’re unlocking crazy capabilities, right? So it’s interesting.Ethan [01:27:32]: It’s interesting to see that, like the video model’s capability increase actually come from language model being more intelligent. I think video agent, like it can unlock more stuff than my- you might imagine. So there’s a few things. So one thing is when we are prompting these models, so most of the people were actually not very good at prompting.Ethan [01:27:59]: Actually, language models have a better sense of how to prompt AI models. AI models know AI models better. So if you jointly train these models, maybe the model have a better sense of, how to prompt each model. Like a different modelVibhu [01:28:15]: Of courseEthan [01:28:15]: might be different. Another thing is it might not as simple as just, like generate a few clips and slap them together using FFmpeg. Like you might-- there might be more like image and video editing tool appear in this process. Say, if you want to exactly add a blob of text at this timestamp, the videos model-- video models might not get that intention very precisely.Ethan [01:28:48]: But these are possible using these deterministic tools. The long-- The video agents can use all sorts of tools, so you don’t have to put all of the capabilities into the generation model itself.Swyx [01:29:04]: I think that’s very true. no, so for what it’s worth, I think you’re right. I think that this will be a big category. I think probably you are predicting like the next one year in video is gonna be all this.Vibhu [01:29:18]: Do you have a time prediction for how-- when this stuff ramps up? LikeSwyx [01:29:22]: they already started.Vibhu [01:29:23]: Is,Swyx [01:29:24]: It’s not very good yet.Vibhu [01:29:25]: Are we so-- No, it’s so, it’s so good. I think the last one’s just longer.Vibhu [01:29:29]: it didn’t give me a minute.Ethan [01:29:30]: Last thirty-six.Vibhu [01:29:30]: It gave me thirty-six seconds. But are we feeling it now? Is there gonna be inflection? Is there any timeline predictions you wanna make?Ethan [01:29:37]: by the end of this year is-- this is going toEthan [01:29:41]: be a big hit. So the inflection point will be where, the videos generated by video agents can get to like production grade quality, so it can be presented and it can be, it can be distributed in ads. And when-- once that happen, I think the enterprise will have much more budget for video models because the agents are, inherently more expensive than the, than the video models themselves, ‘cause they do this iterative process. They generate many variations.Ethan [01:30:23]: but once these models have this, pass this usability threshold, I think it’s, it’s going to be a exponential growth beyond that.Swyx [01:30:35]: I would, fund a company right now based on this thing.Robotics, Physical AI, and Internet-Trained World ModelsSwyx [01:30:40]: so I think you’re right. One thing I’m, I’m surprising, I’m reflecting on the whole like past hour or so of conversation, you are-- I think you’re into world models and video generation for video generation’s sake. I think that a lot of other world models people, we’ve interviewed a lot of them, general intuition and Fei Li and all those guys and Moondream, which I think I told you about. Moonlake.Vibhu [01:31:01]: Lake.Swyx [01:31:01]: I keep saying Moondream. Goddammit. Moonlake. A lot of them actually say like robotics is the end game. Like embodied robotics, like you want real-time, you want interactive. It is to interact with the physical world. You’re not that concerned about it.Ethan [01:31:15]: I think robotics will be a, will be a big part of it for sure.the process may happen naturally. So my prediction on robotics is that the problem is physical AI might be solved, like without actually need toSwyx [01:31:36]: Be in the real worldEthan [01:31:37]: need to be in the real world. So it might, it might get solved by a video-- A LLM is very strong video capability. So remember we talk about the real-time interactive long horizon video. Once these models-- So now these models are just training on like screen recordings and computer screens. Once these models can use computers and understand the future state of computer extremely well, the robots might be, might be one of the, one of the tools, a very powerful AI can use. So the powerful AI might just, be able to control the physical embodiment naturally.Why Ethan Left xAI and What Comes NextSwyx [01:32:28]: I see that for sure. Cool. I know, I know we are coming up on time. you had-- you left one more spicy topic, which is why you left xAI.Ethan [01:32:38]: For me, there’s, there’s a lot of, a lot of research you want to do that you cannot do at, as a company. And also like the priorities and objective the-- of a company typically can change very fast. It is-- It’s also the same for xAI. So now is kind of like the time so there is some research I want to do, especially more on language model side like I cannot do at xAI.Swyx [01:33:11]: Oh, okay, yeah. So you’re, you’re basically leaving You’re, you’re-- you had this whole transition from computer vision to world models, video generation, to now you’re like focusing on LLMs.Vibhu [01:33:22]: But it seems a lot of you saying focusing on LLMs, you really in the past hour described how it all ties together, right? Like But I don’t know. What do you mean by focusing on LLMs? Is thereEthan [01:33:33]: I realize the fact that the video models, even like in the beginning, the game might come from improvement on diffusion technology, but this is a point where actually most of the game, come from the language models themselves.Swyx [01:33:50]: It’s a huge black pill for anyone who has like spent their career in like generative, media.Vibhu [01:33:56]: it-- that’s an extreme view, right? The-- You still definitely need a bit of both, right?Vibhu [01:34:01]: There’s just, it seems like more pressing, impactful work to do now on language model side.Swyx [01:34:07]: Do you have any similar predictions? you-- so you predict the video agents, and I think you will be right. on the language side, what are you looking for in the next one year?Ethan [01:34:16]: I think one thing pretty interesting I think might be happening soon is the language models will be like context-aware and manage its own context.Ethan [01:34:29]: So some-- Like from the video model side, we’ve been suffering from the long horizon issue, like we want to generate video longer and longer, and we’ve been trying to solve the context length issues through various ways. One thing is just brute-forcing train longer context lengths. Another is to manage the context better. I think the same thing in language model is also going to be happening soon. So for example, like the language models, they’re not aware of how long their own context length is. Once they hit like eighty percent or something, automatic context compression is getting triggered. And the model, is not aware of that when it’s working. And some-- maybe it’s good for the models to know, “Oh, I’m, I’m approaching like eighty percent,” or something. And something also pretty interesting, like for example, in OpenClau, like you-- every time you type in something, a times-- the current local time is automatically attached to your message, so the model actually know what time is it. So this is making the model time-aware. And also like in tool calling the-- a lot of the intermediate tool call results automatically prune. So there’s like context removal, context addition, and, context compaction. So all of these are from the harnesses themselves. But from our experience, the heuristic engineering also helps the models get this absorbed into the models themselves. that’s something very interesting to explore.Vibhu [01:36:12]: So infinite context?Ethan [01:36:14]: Maybe.Vibhu [01:36:15]: No, but it’s, it’s interesting, right? youSwyx [01:36:17]: It is in the space of memory and continual learning andVibhu [01:36:20]: I don’t know. It’s also like in the space of agent harness use, right? You’re seeingSwyx [01:36:25]: No, he’s saying he doesn’t want to do it in a harness, right?Vibhu [01:36:27]: No, but models are also being trained on uni-- using harnesses, right?Vibhu [01:36:32]: So some of it is, you could say, implicitly leaking in, right? part of that post-training of language models is, okay, using it in coding harnesses, in which case, when are agents spawned? When is compaction gonna happen? it’s not explicit you have this much token window, which I don’t know if you want it to be, as that’ll change, but it’s, it’s somewhat leaking in there.Ethan [01:36:58]: I’m imagining, what if the model have access to the whole-- the code of the agent harness itself and being able to modify it to whatever you want. Say, if the agent harness is short enough, you can just put in the context lengths in the system prompt, and then the model will say, “When I want to spawn a future version of myself, I can modify the agent harness.” For example, if I-- the agent harness can be, “Oh, when I’m reading-”A long document, I can choose to read the whole thing in chunks and, come back, smash the summary together, or I can just read the first two hundred lines and, discard the rest. And all kind of choices, if they can be made by the models themselves, it might be very interesting to see that the model can, program the model can program itself online in test time.Career Lessons: Moving Across ML DomainsSwyx [01:38:02]: so the self-modifying harness is also part of, OpenClaw and Py, but I think there’s a lot more work to do there. Very cool. I think part of me is kind of curious. I think you are part of Big Lab, right? And there’s this career path of a researcher at a Big Lab, which is you are-- you train models, you get more compute, you train better models, and you keep going. And somewhat, I feel like you’re opting out of that. And if I were you, I would be “Oh, I think this is, a bit of a career risk.” what?Swyx [01:38:36]: I don’t have any comment apart from, you’re very strongly convicted. I think that a lot of people in your shoes would not be doing what you did.Ethan [01:38:43]: Speaking of my career, if I look back, actually, there were, there were a lot of huge transitions. So ten years ago, I was, I was doing research with a ResNet authors, Xiangyu Zhang and Jian Sun. Yeah, at that time, the research were completely different. It was, mostly confirmation, like image recognition, object detection, object tracking. I was also doing neural net compression at that time. It was quite different from knowledge dissolutions these days. And at that time, I was-- I wanted to be a professor, and I applied. When I applied for a PhD, I already had a few first author papers at top conferences, so I confidently applied at the top schools. It turns out I got rejected by all of the top PhD programs. So I had to, I had to go to the industry. At that time, I was at Facebook AI Research fair, led by Yann LeCun.Swyx [01:39:51]: I wanted to talk about VJPA, but it’s different.Ethan [01:39:53]: I know. Yeah, we can leave it for another time.Ethan [01:39:57]: I switched to At that time, I switched to self-surprised learning. It was, it was quite different from what I was doing in contribution.Ethan [01:40:07]: And after that is NVIDIA Cosmos. So I realized scaling up was extremely important. So at NVIDIA, I was mainly focusing on scaling. So one thing is Cosmos scaling the video distribution models to a few billion parameters. And another thing is, I was working on MoEs. The Megatron MoEs was the first, was the first framework open source to be able to train these MoEs at very large scales, hundred billions parameters to even trillions parameters efficiently at, forty percent MFU.Ethan [01:40:51]: And going to switching to xAI was trying to work on even larger compute scale even further. And yeah, looking at this trajectory, I actually worked on a lot of different things. So I feel actually within ML, it’s actually easier to switch than you think. a lot of people might have mindset that, “Oh, I work on, I work on computer vision. I always have to work on computer vision, and I cannot switch to language.” And, but from my experience, at least at NVIDIA, I worked on both language model MoEs and also video models. It’s, it’s actually not the case. A lot of, a lot of the core principles how to train large models are largely the same. And yeah, for me, I feel right now the bottleneck, for video models is actually the language part the agent, which is why I want to go to work more on LLMs. One thing is it’s, it’s a bit of a challenge. I don’t think it’s a huge, jump, so.Closing ThoughtsSwyx [01:42:18]: kudos to you. I think you have a lot of, strong vision there. Yeah, I think that was mostly everything that we wanted to cover. You’ve been very generous with your time, and I, it’s really nice that you are able to share all these things now. We don’t have to go through xAI to clear everything. but also weEthan [01:42:35]: Oh,Swyx [01:42:35]: I think we didn’t get you in trouble.Ethan [01:42:37]: It’s a lot of good stuff about xAI compared to what you just see in the releases, right? You don’t realize how many more levels there are to it.Swyx [01:42:44]: xAI, please do more podcasts.Swyx [01:42:47]: anyway.Swyx [01:42:48]: but thank you for, sharing. It’s been very kind. And also, I wanna hear more from you. I think you are going to embark on your next phase. You haven’t announced what you’re doing next, but clearly you have, more vision and more ambition on this path, and I think you’re, you’re basically kind of gradient descending to, whatever your final form is.Ethan [01:43:08]: Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, I’ll, I’ll share more about my next chapter soon.Ethan [01:43:14]: Thank you for having me.Swyx [01:43:16]: Thanks for coming. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.latent.space/subscribe

Editor’s note: In our first BioHub pod with Priscilla and Mark they discussed their acquisition of EvoScale, led by Alex Rives, who is now Head of Science at BioHub. With ESM-1 they trained language models on millions of protein sequences drawn from across life, with a simple “next token” objective: predict the amino acids that have been randomly masked out, based on the context of the rest of the sequence. But they soon found that these models also learned biological structure and function, including properties the model had never been explicitly shown AND that this ability scales predictably with compute, leading to ESM2 and ESM3.Today, Alex announced ESMFold 2, an open scientific engine to power prediction, design, and discovery across protein biology.Building on Cryo-EM data (discussed in the CZI pod), ESMFold2 reports state of the art performance on protein interactions, especially antibodies, a critical modality for therapeutics, and evidence that inference time scaling is also working across five targets in cancer and immunology.In a nod to that other famous AI x protein folding project, they are also releasing an atlas of 6.8 billion proteins, and 1.1 billion predicted structures, which you can play around with on their website. We are honored to work with them for this huge release!One of the refrains we’ve heard on the Science pod has been that protein folding, materials design, cellular biology, etc. are very different problems from Language Modeling. They definitely are. Yet Alex Rives and the ESM team at BioHub just released a preprint and model, demonstrating that vanilla BERT-like transformer models trained on sufficiently large and diverse data sets can beat specialized models like AlphaFold3 on some of the hardest protein-related problems. Andrew White had a great segment in our first LS-Science episode that explained how mind blowing AlphaFold2 was when it was released in 2020: it suddenly solved problems on a GPU on your desktop that DESRes had built custom-ASIC supercomputer clusters to solve. John Jumper and Demmis Hassabis received the Nobel Prize in Chemistry for this work.AlphaFold2 took advantage of an very clever observation: if multiple species co-evolve pairs of mutations, this implies that the mutations correspond to parts of the protein that are close in 3d space. This is usually shorthanded as MSAs (multi-sequence alignments), and is the key insight which makes AlphaFold2 so effective.Like other inductive biases, however, it hurts generalization.Scale-pilled before it was coolIf you take a look at the timeline for scaling laws for LLMs and release of structure prediction models, the ESM team notably doubled down on their MSAs-be-damned approach after AlphaFold2 released. This obviously requires a great deal of belief in the scale hypothesis.Why the conviction?ESM developed at a time when many of the scaling laws and the “Bitter Lesson” were proving increasingly correct. AlphaFold2’s wild success must have been both exciting and bitterly disappointing. But using MSAs mean that the model is is dependent on training data that contains MSAs in order to be accurate in a given domain. For things like antibodies that don’t have MSAs to train on, AlphaFold tends to do poorly.ESM takes a different approach: learn the relationship between different proteins by unsupervised training on as much diversity as you can find (sound familiar?) and then correlate that back to structures know from the Protein Data Bank (PDB) and other sources. In other words, a World Model.World Model for proteins“World Model” is a hype term that I define like this:Use unsupervised training to learn abstract patterns from the data:* The abstraction should be semantic - novel constructions represent things that obey the rules of the real world* The abstraction should be compositional - recombining different patterns leads to novel and often valid constructions* The abstraction should support generalization - it predicts things in the real world it wasn’t trained on Once you have a world model, you can attach “heads” to it for downstream tasks: predict properties of a protein, decompose its functional features, or search the representation for proteins that meet design criteria. The two big models BioHub just released under MIT license map directly onto this:* World model → ESMC (a model trained on 2.8 billion sequences)* Structure-prediction head → ESMFold2One of the interesting ways the world model can “predict things” is to generate proteins sequences and then measure the predicted properties, such as binding affinity, in the lab. Alex talks in the episode about validating some of the harder molecules they predicted in the wet-lab. Very cool!Another way is to use mech-interp techniques such as Sparse Auto Encoders (SAEs) to extract semantic features from your model, and then find novel features that predict unknown biology. I won’t spoil this part for you: it was one of the highlights of the episode for me!A cell is a computerWe have all heard that genes are like computer programs, but usually the analogy fizzles after that. Of course genes are transcribed into RNA and RNA is translated into proteins, so genes are programs for building proteins, but that carries the analogy only to “binary digits are programs.” Here’s a better analogy: you can think of the cell nucleus as a storage device / storage controller, the ribosome as a JIT-compiler and runtime, and the semantic features that we learn from our world model via SAEs as functions, proteins as processes that interact together in workflows (signalling pathways) to produce behaviors and outputs (phenotypes). Like functions, the SAE features have a hierarchical composition from local, secondary and tertiary structures (mimicing protein structure), but also motifs that are conceptual, such as membrane integrations, disordered regions and disulfide bonds. As we learn to compose these features we into novel protein designs, we move further towards programmable biology. Alex goes into much more detail about this in the episode, as well as:* Principles for new data collection* BioHub’s vision* Modeling the cellEnjoy!Full Video podcastplease like and subscribe!* X: https://x.com/alexrives* LinkedIn: This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.latent.space/subscribe

Take the 2026 AI Engineering Survey and get >$2k in credits and AIE WF tickets!This was recorded before Railway suffered a major GCP outage on May 19, despite being a multi-AZ, multi-zone mesh ring, with HA fiber interconnects between their Metal GCP AWS, because workload discoverability was unintentionally still tied to GCP. All has been resolved with a post-mortem.Railway did not start as an AI infrastructure company.It was founded in 2020 years before agents became the default way people thought about deploying software. Jake Cooper, formerly at Bloomberg and Uber, started Railway with a simple obsession: the activation energy to ship something to production should be near zero. Push code, get a URL, iterate. No Docker files, no Kubernetes manifests, no Ansible scripts stacked on Ansible scripts.For years, this was a slow grind. Railway spent its first 18 months hand-acquiring its first 100 users with Jake personally greeting every Discord signup on a second monitor.Today, Railway has raised $124m and is growing very fast. A 35-person team supports 3 million users, adding roughly 100,000 signups a week. Their bare metal data centers have a 3-month payback period vs. renting in the cloud, with 70% margins funding aggressive cloud bursting when needed. The servers they own have actually appreciated in value as RAM prices have climbed basically meaning the value of their hardware now exceeds the capital they've raised.From rebuilding Railway’s network overlay over a weekend to moving the vast majority of workloads onto its own bare metal data centers, Jake Cooper is trying to build a new cloud for an agent-native world. In this episode, Railway’s founder and “conductor” joins swyx and Alessio to unpack why the next era of software infrastructure is not just “Heroku but newer,” what agents need that humans did not, and why the old deployment loop of Git, PRs, CI/CD, and static cloud resources may be heading for a rewrite.We go deep on Railway’s infrastructure stack: own-metal data centers, three-month cloud payback periods, cloud bursting, data center debt, Railpack, Nixpacks, Temporal, feature flags, Central Station, content-addressable filesystems, agent-safe production forks, and why the CLI may become more important than the canvas in an agent world. Jake also shares the founder journey behind Railway, how the company survived losing $500K/month, why it now serves millions of users with only 35 people, and why he believes the pull request is dying.We discuss:* How Railway went from a slow six-year grind to adding 100,000 users a week* How Railway thinks about agents as the next dominant software species* Why agents need version control, observability, compute, storage, and orchestration at 1000x scale* The economics of Railway’s own-metal data centers and three-month payback* How Railway uses cloud bursting while scaling its own infrastructure* Why data center debt can be a better tool than venture debt for infra startups* Central Station, Railway’s internal system for clustering customer feedback and incidents* Why responsible disclosure and over-communication matter for platforms* Why feature flags, progressive rollouts, and shadow traffic are essential for agents* Temporal’s strengths, pain points, and why workflows matter for agents* Railpack, Nixpacks, Nix, and lazy-loaded content-addressable filesystems* Why “cattle, not pets” may change if you can clone the pets* Why Railway is building a new cloud from scratch instead of copying hyperscalers* The solo founder path, focus, writing, and how Jake thinks about company buildingRailway:* Website: https://railway.com/* X: https://x.com/RailwayJake Cooper:* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thejakecooper/* X: https://x.com/JustJakeTimestamps00:00:00 Introduction: What Is Railway?00:02:07 Jake’s Path to Railway00:06:13 Railway’s Six-Year Growth Story00:08:52 Rebuilding the Business After the Free Tier00:11:17 Agents as the Next Software Platform00:13:29 Railway’s Infrastructure Philosophy00:15:42 Bare Metal, Cloud Economics, and the Compute Crunch00:17:22 Cloud Bursting and Five-Cloud Networking00:20:20 Data Center Debt and Infra Financing00:23:31 Data Centers in Space00:25:24 What Agents Need From Infrastructure00:28:24 CLIs, Canvas, and Agent-Native UX00:35:15 Central Station, Incidents, and Responsible Disclosure00:40:30 Safe Rollouts, SRE Agents, and Production Forks00:45:00 AI SRE, Specs, Code, and Tests00:48:24 Self-Replicating Infrastructure and the New Serverless00:53:18 Heroku, Temporal, and Workflow Engines01:04:07 Railpack, Nixpacks, and Lazy-Loaded Filesystems01:06:01 Coding Agents, Token Spend, and Roadmap Acceleration01:10:56 The Pull Request Is Dying01:12:28 Feature Flags and the Agent-Era SDLC01:16:15 Cattle, Pets, and Cloning Machines01:19:29 Solo Founder Lessons01:24:12 Focus, GPUs, and Building a New Cloud01:28:20 Closing ThoughtsTranscriptAlessio [00:00:00]: Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Latent Space Podcast. This is Alessio, founder of Kernel Labs, and I’m joined by Swyx, editor of Latent Space.Swyx [00:00:10]: Hey, hey, hey. Today we’re in the studio with Jake Cooper of Railway.Alessio [00:00:14]: Conductor of Railway.Swyx [00:00:15]: Conductor at Railway. Yeah.Alessio [00:00:16]: Choo-choo.Swyx [00:00:17]: Do you actually have that anywhere, like on your business card?Jake [00:00:20]: We call some of our volunteer moderators conductors. I don’t have a business card. We’re not that big yet. At some point I will. I got handed a nice business card from the Supermicro folks, and I was like, “Damn, this is pretty official.”Swyx [00:00:30]: Business cards are coming back.Jake [00:00:32]: They’re cool. They’re hip. The conductor thing is good. We’re trying to figure out what we want to call each other internally. Some people think it’s super cringe and say, “You don’t need a name for people internally.” Some people want to call each other something. We still don’t have a really good one.Jake [00:00:55]: We’ve got New Railcrews, Trainiacs. Nothing has stuck yet.Swyx [00:01:00]: I like Trainiac. Trainiac sounds good. Railwayians. For those who don’t know, what is Railway? Let’s give people a crisp definition up front.Jake [00:01:09]: Railway is the easiest way to ship anything. You go to the canvas, or you talk with Claude, and you say, “Deploy a Postgres instance, deploy my GitHub repository, run this code,” and you’re off to the races.Swyx [00:01:22]: You’ve got a nice animation on the landing page.Jake [00:01:24]: Thank you. None of my work, by the way. They don’t let me touch the design stuff anymore.Jake [00:01:25]: We want to make it trivially easy not just to deploy things, but to evolve applications over time. Most tooling right now stacks entropy on top of entropy: Docker, Kubernetes, Ansible scripts, and all these other things. If we can version all of your software and keep track of all the changes, then we can make it trivial to clone environments, fork into a parallel universe, get copies of production data, get copies of any services, make changes, validate them, and collapse them back in without reproducing everything across a staging environment.The Railway Origin Story: From Uber Systems to a New CloudSwyx [00:02:07]: I was looking at your background: Bloomberg, Uber. Nothing immediately stands out as, “This guy is going to found the next great platform as a service.” What prepared you for Railway?Jake [00:02:21]: It was curiosity to keep going deeper. I started out on front-end stuff, working on Wolfram Mathematica and porting it over. Then I briefly moved to Bloomberg, then toward Uber and distributed systems, taking the Jump Bikes systems and moving them to a distributed system built on top of Cadence, the pre-Temporal Temporal.Swyx [00:02:44]: Which, by the way, I’m happy to talk about, pros and cons.Jake [00:02:48]: Totally.Swyx [00:02:51]: But let’s do the Railway story.Jake [00:02:52]: It has been a continual step of wanting an experience. Whether it’s walking up to a bike, unlocking it, and having it work frictionlessly, or something else, the depth required to make that happen follows from the experience. A lot of the work I do, and a lot of the team does, is in service of that experience. We fundamentally don’t care how deep we have to go. We will swim to the bottom of the swimming pool to get the experience.Jake [00:03:17]: I don’t have a physics PhD. I did an EECS degree. It has always been about figuring out the next step: how do we get there? That’s what led to starting Railway for that experience and then moving all the way to bare metal data centers. I was adding patches to the kernel this week to get the experience there because I can see how much better it can be.Swyx [00:03:49]: Other patches to the Linux kernel this week?Jake [00:03:51]: Yeah. Not upstream. Our fork.Swyx [00:03:52]: That’s a flex. Railpack? No, this is different. This is the OS on top of Railpack?Jake [00:03:57]: No, this is an actual kernel patch. It’s always literally: what do we have to do to get that experience? Then figure it out. Anything is figureoutable.Swyx [00:04:10]: Would you send the patch upstream, or does it not fit other use cases?Jake [00:04:13]: Maybe. We have to work out the experience internally. It has to do with the storage layer we’re building for some of the agentic stuff. Maybe it’ll be useful upstream, but it’s deeply useful for us internally.Open Source, Forks, and Non-Deterministic VersioningSwyx [00:04:29]: You mentioned open source before. How do you think about starting from open source, and then coding agents letting you do a lot more from forks of it?Jake [00:04:38]: GitHub’s original sin is that it’s almost a series of broken pointers. You have this thing, then you clone it, and now you’ve lost the whole upstream. How do we make it trivial for people to modify really small pieces of it?Jake [00:04:51]: We think of Git in a discrete sense: I’ve either made a change and merged upstream, or I haven’t. What would it look like if it were percentage-based, a little more non-deterministic, or a stream of changes that users traverse as a percentage rolled out in general and then rolled all the way up?Jake [00:05:13]: We have the open-source kickback program and let you deploy templates because we want to make it trivial for people to version these shards over time. It solves a large problem around authentication, authorization, and security. NPM has a way to define, “Don’t take any new packages.” The ideal end state is that you roll out progressively to users with the minimum impact zone and continue rolling up. JPMorgan should probably be the last one on the patch line, for all our sakes, because our money and livelihoods are there.Jake [00:05:53]: It’s okay if Johnny Vibe Coder gets a broken patch because there’s so much entropy in the system that the rubber has to meet the road at some point. You have to test at varying levels.The Long Grind: First Users, Free Tier, and Making the Business WorkSwyx [00:06:13]: I wanted to pull up this glorious chart, which is your usage or number of daily signups?Jake [00:06:22]: Daily signups, I think.Swyx [00:06:24]: You started six years ago. It was a slow grind, and now you’re on a rocket ship. You say, “Don’t doubt your fight and don’t quit.” Maybe pick out certain points that were key inflections for the company.Jake [00:06:40]: At the start, it’s about getting your first 100 users, hell or high water. We had a website and a support link. The support link was the Discord channel. I had notifications on with two monitors: the monitor I was working on and the other monitor with Discord. If anybody came in, I was immediately like, “Hey, how’s it going?” It was rare, so getting those first 100 users to come back was the start.Jake [00:07:14]: Then you build a consultancy factory because users want all these things. You have to go back to the board and ask, “What is the actual product offering I want to build on top of this?”Jake [00:07:28]: VCs want charts that always go up and to the right, but in reality you don’t necessarily want charts that look like that. For us, there have been periods of expansion where we add features to test use cases, and periods of compaction where we ask, “If the experience we have is good, how do we make it significantly better?” Maybe we strip out features that don’t fit our ICP anymore.Jake [00:07:57]: The boom from 2022 to 2023 came from the free tier. Everybody under the sun was using it.Swyx [00:08:09]: A lot of Reddit bots and Discord bots.Jake [00:08:12]: And crypto miners. When you build an open product on the internet where anybody can sign up, the internet is a horrible place with so many things. You go through periods of asking, “How do I reach as many people as possible?” Then, “How do I fit the exact use case for the people who really matter and are really excited about this specific thing?”Jake [00:08:39]: Then there was a two-year period of making the actual business work. During the free-tier era, we were losing about half a million dollars a month.Swyx [00:08:59]: On a $20 million bank account.Jake [00:09:02]: On a $20 million bank account with maybe $50,000 a month in revenue. That’s a horrible business. I don’t know how anybody invested. But you have to go through it and say, “We have an experience people love, but the business has to work.”Jake [00:09:17]: There are two schools of thought. You can run the horrible business all the way up with bad margins, or you can go back and make it work. We’ve always wanted a super lean team. We’re 35 people right now. It’s very small.Swyx [00:09:36]: Supporting three million already?Jake [00:09:38]: Yeah. We’re adding 100,000 users a week right now, so it’s growing fast. We don’t want to add headcount for the sake of headcount or throw bodies at problems. We want to build systems. It’s hard to build systems during expansion because you’re adding things to the system because people are asking for them or things are breaking.Jake [00:10:00]: We had to cut off the free users for a little while, rebuild the business, and make sure it worked. We want to reach as many people as possible because software is important. It’s become difficult to create things in the physical world, so it’s important to make it easy for people to build in the virtual world and have access to creation. But there are legs to that journey.Jake [00:10:30]: You can see divots in the charts. If you follow between 2025 and 2026, it’s either summer or winter. People go on holiday with family.Swyx [00:10:50]: It affects that much?Jake [00:10:51]: Yeah. It’s kind of B2C and kind of B2B. People are shipping constantly, then they stop. Our activation curve now shows more people activating on weekdays because we have more business users, so it smooths out over time.Agents as the New Interface to DeploymentSwyx [00:11:17]: Was there a point where you started prioritizing AI development or agent development?Jake [00:11:24]: We’ve prioritized agentic as a top-of-funnel thing. Over the last six months, we’ve deeply prioritized agentic as a mechanism to build and deploy things because we believe the curve is so steep and that is how people will build and deploy software.Jake [00:11:42]: It almost fundamentally doesn’t matter whether this is dot-com or not because we’re all on the internet anyway. If agents are going to deploy a bunch of things and we hit an inference wall at some point, we’ll fix those problems. The dominant species over the next 10 years is that we’ve moved from assembly to C to C++ to JavaScript to words. You’re going to need to close that loop.Swyx [00:12:13]: When you say this is dot-com, did you mean buying the domain, or the general case?Jake [00:12:17]: I mean the dot-com era, when companies had a huge run-up because people understood the internet was important. Then they hit bottlenecks, fundamental laws of physics, math didn’t work, and everybody came back down to earth. But it didn’t matter because the internet became so impactful. If you operate on a long enough time horizon, you should build these things anyway because you can see where it’s going.Jake [00:12:45]: That’s where I think a lot of agent stuff is. You get to a point where you’re running thousands of agents in parallel. What is the inference cost? What is the compute cost? How do you make that efficient? How do you coordinate all this? We have issues coordinating humans; we don’t even have good tooling for that. Now we have to figure out how to get agents to coordinate, safely version changes, and know when to raise their hand for someone to intervene. Otherwise it becomes an interrupt factory.Railway’s Infrastructure Thesis: Network, Compute, Storage, and MetalSwyx [00:13:19]: Let’s go right into the technical side. What are the core infrastructure or architectural beliefs of Railway that allow you to do what you do?Jake [00:13:29]: The primitives matter a lot for us. We need network, compute, storage, and orchestration around it. You need control over a lot of those things. We’ve talked a lot about how we don’t really use Kubernetes because we want higher-order control to place workloads in very specific places.Jake [00:13:48]: The reason is that you have to be very efficient with agents: memory reuse and all these other things, or you’re going to massively blow up your cost structure. Being able to rack and stack your own servers and build your own metal unlocks performance and cost. Experiences where you’re running 1,000 agents in parallel are not massively cost prohibitive.Jake [00:14:13]: Token use and compute use are blowing up. Over time, those things have to get a lot more efficient. You can get a lot of margin to make those experiences solid by building your own metal. That’s all in service of offering a differentiated experience to as many people as humanly possible.Swyx [00:14:51]: You have a data center in Singapore.Jake [00:14:53]: Yeah. We have two in every other region now. In Singapore, we’re adding a second one in Q3.Swyx [00:14:58]: What’s it like? I’ve never built a data center. Do you go to Equinix and say, “I want some slots?”Jake [00:15:05]: Yeah. Equinix. You basically go and say, “I want power and I want a cage.” They say, “Great, here’s what it’s going to be.” You rent the cage for a period of time, fill it with racks and servers, and hook up internet to it. That’s all the pieces.Swyx [00:15:36]: Then you handle everything else.Jake [00:15:37]: You handle everything else.Swyx [00:15:39]: What’s the math versus clouds doing it for you?Jake [00:15:43]: If we rented in the cloud, our payback period when we go to metal is about three months.Swyx [00:15:50]: Which is crazy.Jake [00:15:51]: It’s nuts. That’s four years of depreciated hardware. You’re going to see a lot of this compute crunch because hyperscalers are buying up a lot of stuff. We’re working directly with OEMs, resellers, and people building these machines: Supermicro, Dell, and others.Jake [00:16:11]: Upstream, there’s a bunch of supply pressure. When we raised our last round, between deploying capital for servers and now, the amount of money we’ve raised is less than the amount of money we have in the bank plus the value of the servers because the servers have appreciated as RAM has gone up. It’s nuts how valuable hardware has become.Jake [00:16:50]: If you look at hyperscalers, they deployed around $80 billion of capital expenditures this year, and next year will be more. That’s a massive infrastructure build-out. You look at that and think it’s crazy that they’re spending way more than the Manhattan Project. But if every person is going to run dozens or hundreds of agents in parallel, you have no conceptual idea how much compute is required to make that experience happen, even if you’re deeply efficient and sharing resources. And that doesn’t even count inference.Swyx [00:17:22]: How do you plan the build-out? The growth chart is so vertical. Are you usually at 100% utilization as soon as racks are live? How far ahead are you planning?Jake [00:17:33]: We still maintain cloud presence for bursting. We work with AWS, GCP, and a few other clouds. We can rent, and then the moment we get space or power, we compact those workloads off the cloud. We started on the clouds, then built a system to migrate to our own metal. There’s nothing that says you can’t continually do that again, and that’s exactly what we do. We never want to be compute constrained.Jake [00:18:09]: At the start of the year, we actually became compute constrained because one upstream provider wasn’t able to give us quota at the rate we needed, and the hardware was slower. I spent a weekend rebuilding our entire network overlay so we could straddle five clouds: Oracle, AWS, ourselves, GCP, and one other one. We can do more than that now.Jake [00:18:38]: We got into a spot where we were trying to pack instances tight because we couldn’t get enough compute. That led to a few reliability issues, which are now past us. I made a tweet pointing out that it’s becoming harder and harder to acquire compute at the rate these models need to acquire compute. We got bit by it.Swyx [00:19:15]: How do you think about pricing knowing you might not have your own metal available at all times? Are you pricing assuming you need extra margin if you end up going into the cloud?Jake [00:19:26]: Because we’ve built out our metal data centers, our margins on metal are around 70%. We can deeply subsidize the cloud business if we want to scale at a reasonable rate. We have a few levers: metal, which makes the margins; cloud burst; debt to buy servers; and venture capital. It’s an interesting operational problem: how much cash do we have, how much should we raise, how quickly can we deploy it, and can we scale revenue as quickly as we scale compute?Jake [00:20:05]: If we continue making it trivially easy for people to build and deploy, then the faster we close that loop and the more operationally excellent we are with capital, the faster the business can scale. It’s almost a straight linear deployment rate.Financing Infrastructure: Hardware Debt, VC, and Operational LeverageSwyx [00:20:20]: I think infra startups raising debt is a tool people don’t utilize enough or know enough about. What can you tell us about that? Is it secured against your CPUs?Jake [00:20:32]: It’s secured against our hardware.Swyx [00:20:37]: What rates do you get? Who are the lenders?Jake [00:20:39]: We pay prime plus a spread, and we can refinance any of the debt as rates go down. The terms are pretty good. The unfortunate thing is that Twitter has no nuance, so people say, “Venture debt bad.” But as with all things, there are specific tools and areas where you can be deliberate instead of using one tool as a hammer. Venture capital is not the hammer for everything. You have to explore and figure out what works.Swyx [00:21:12]: VC is usually the most expensive financing you can get.Jake [00:21:15]: Yeah. I also think people think about VC incorrectly from a capital-raising perspective. Most people think, “How do I raise as much money as possible from whoever is probably the best I can get at that time?” That’s close to right, but what we’ve tried to do is figure out what unfair advantage we can buy with that equity.Jake [00:21:34]: It’s the most expensive equity you’re going to give away at that point in time, assuming the company keeps getting better. How do you use it to work with someone stellar who complements you? In the seed stage, I had never started a company. Ray Tonsing had good advice, and I could text him all the time. He was really fast. Awesome.Jake [00:22:01]: Then with John and Erica at Unusual, they said, “You roughly know what you’re doing building a product. We’ll mostly leave you alone and be available for advice.” Amazing. Then we got to Series A and the business was an operational tire fire because we didn’t know how to scale a business. Work with Erica, and Jordan is over at Redpoint, so bonus.Jake [00:22:28]: Now we’ve raised from TQ and FPV as we’re moving into enterprises. Every step of the way, we’ve asked: who can we partner with at this specific time to unlock the next section of the journey? I don’t know enterprise sales. As an engineer, I can eyeball what features we might need, and we have wonderful people internally who can help. But you want boardroom dynamics where everyone is aligned and asking, “How do we win this?” instead of bickering about strategy.Data Centers in Space and the Physics of ComputeSwyx [00:23:31]: You had a tweet about data centers in space. Why no data centers in space?Jake [00:23:37]: It’s not “no data centers in space.” My hot take is that I think it is solvable. I’ve just never seen anybody solve it.Swyx [00:23:49]: You said, “How are you going to dissipate that much heat in a vacuum?” You’re making a physics claim.Jake [00:23:55]: I haven’t seen anybody prove how you’re going to dissipate that much heat in a vacuum. It doesn’t mean it’s not possible. It just means nobody has brought it up yet.Swyx [00:24:05]: Astrophage.Jake [00:24:06]: I don’t know what that is.Swyx [00:24:07]: The Martian thing. Okay, you’re very logical.Jake [00:24:09]: It could work. A lot of people are putting the cart before the horse. They say, “We’re going to put data centers in space.” Okay, but how? “We have time to figure it out.” It’s like in The Martian where they ask how they’re going to intercept something and say, “We’ll figure it out.”Swyx [00:24:36]: Making a bet on human invention is weird because you blind trust that it can be solved. But with physics, there are first-principles bounds you can put on it. Maybe not. Maybe you’re asking to travel time or break a fundamental thermodynamic law.Jake [00:24:57]: I don’t know how VCs do this either. How do you know what’s not possible and a grift versus what’s possible but sounds completely insane? “We’re going to put data centers in space.” Coin flip as to which it is, and I guess you’ll know in 10 years. That’s one cycle.What Agents Need: Versioning, Observability, and 1,000x ScaleSwyx [00:25:23]: Moving back to agents. The branching, fast spin-up, and orchestration you do feels like pre-work that happened to be exactly what agents want. What do agents want differently than humans?Jake [00:25:37]: They want the ability to version things. It’s not that different; it materializes slightly differently. Agents want a way to test changes incrementally. Engineers have feature flags. Is there a reason agents can’t use feature flags? I don’t think so.Jake [00:25:54]: They want version control. Can we use Git or not Git? That one is up in the air. I think something outside Git will emerge for how we version these things over time. They need observability. You need to query what happened, when it happened, which steps failed, traces, logs, metrics, and all the rest. They need network, compute, and storage. They need to write files, save files, iterate on files, and snapshot file systems.Jake [00:26:25]: A lot of what humans needed is in line with what agents need. Branching and forking are not different; we’re just moving 1,000 times quicker. It can look like you need something massively different, but what you need is something massively better than what existed. You need orchestration massively better than Kubernetes. You need networking probably better than Envoy. It goes all the way down the stack.Jake [00:26:55]: If the workload profile doesn’t change so much as it gets massively compressed because you need thousands of these things, what assumptions change? etcd is going to melt. You need to replace it with something. You can go all the way down the stack and say, “That part has to change, that part has to change, and that part has to change.”Jake [00:27:19]: The interesting thing about the super-exponential curve is that you have to build systems where you can rip out those parts at any time because a new bottleneck might emerge. You get good at parallel agents, and a different part of the system breaks. So it’s similar to what humans needed, but at 1,000x scale.Jake [00:27:55]: How do you do code review in the age of agents?Swyx [00:28:00]: You throw more agents at it.Jake [00:28:01]: You don’t. But then who reviews for CVEs and all these other things?Swyx [00:28:07]: More agents.Jake [00:28:08]: And that’s how we hit the inference wall. You can continually throw agents at the problem, but I think there’s a limit to the number of agents you can throw at a problem.CLI, Agent Handles, and Closing the LoopSwyx [00:28:24]: You already had a CLI before it was cool. How is the shape of what you’re exposing changing, if at all?Jake [00:28:28]: CLIs have always been cool. The CLI changes because we think about how to give Claude, Codex, ChatGPT, or any model a handhold.Jake [00:28:50]: A CLI is a single command: deploy, get logs, and so on. Things that were prohibitively annoying to humans are not annoying to agents. They’re nice. If I handed you a CLI with 40 arguments and 600 flags, you’d think, “I’m never going to use all of this.” But if you hand it to an agent, it says, “This is excellent. I have so many handles to work with.”Jake [00:29:24]: If you’re going to expose things to agents that way, you want as many handles as possible where they can get information, query dynamic information, and close the loop quickly. Most problems right now are about how to close the loop as quickly as possible. Where does the agent get stuck, and how can you remove that?Jake [00:29:49]: Telemetry is important. If you can tell where the agent gets stuck from the CLI and say, “12% of people deviate from the happy path because of this, and now I add this argument and drive it down to 2%,” you massively increase the rate of loop closure.Jake [00:30:03]: That’s how we think about not just the CLI, but every point in the dashboard. It’s a user journey: I hear about Railway. I get something deployed. I get my first green build or aha moment. I see an endpoint, logs, whatever. Then I iterate. The iteration loop is indefinite. The user wants to deploy a new thing, a Postgres instance, change code, and keep iterating.Jake [00:30:36]: If you focus on the iteration loops and what’s blocking them from closing quickly, one thing we say internally is: you never want to be waiting on compute anymore. You always want to be waiting on intelligence. If you’re waiting on compute, there’s a bottleneck that needs to be destroyed because eventually that bottleneck becomes so large that another workflow emerges to change it.Jake [00:31:04]: We’ve built a product where you push code, build it, and so on. But I fundamentally believe the push-pull loop is going away. We’ll get to a point where you make a small change in production, that change is versioned across your infrastructure, you’re working alongside copy-on-write versions of your database and infrastructure, and then you merge it in and it’s instantaneously live. That’s the holy grail of loops. The push-pull-rebuild thing is a point of friction that we’re removing entirely.Canvas as Output: Dashboards, Context Anchors, and HyperstructuresSwyx [00:31:43]: It’s incredibly fast. If anyone hasn’t tried it, that fast feedback is great. My hot take is that Railway was famous for its canvas, which visualizes your infrastructure and lets you manipulate it visually. But that was for humans. For the next phase of growth, Railway CLI is more important than canvas.Jake [00:32:05]: The canvas is funny because it’s a mechanism to show changes over time. You’re right that previously we used it a lot as an input. Moving forward, its goal is more like an output. You would go to the canvas, make changes, see them, and watch your infrastructure evolve. Now agents have access to the CLI and can make those changes. So the canvas becomes an output: what information does the human need at this moment to make suitable decisions about control requests? Do I approve this or not?Jake [00:32:57]: It also has to be an anchor for your context, a port in the storm. Think of it like layers in a file system. You start with a project, then drill down into services, then into a function or code, because you want to represent the entire thing not just in your head, but in the canvas. Other people can share that representation, think on the same wavelength, and move quickly.Jake [00:33:33]: A lot of organizations get in trouble as they scale because all the context lives in someone’s head. “How does this microservice work?” “I have no idea; go ask this person.” Then you have whole categories of products built around context discovery. A lot of that melts away if you have a solid hierarchy and can infinitely nest services, code, context, and everything else all the way down. That’s what lets you build these structures over time.Jake [00:34:18]: It’s also what lets us build what I’ve called hyperstructures: things that are way bigger. You look at the Golden Gate Bridge and ask, “How did we build that?” There’s a meme that we lost the technology. To some extent, yes, because the coordination that built those things evolved and changed. We lost some of the art of building structure as we jammed everything into Slack.Swyx [00:34:52]: But you jam everything in Discord.Jake [00:34:53]: Same point. It doesn’t matter. It’s message passing and interrupts, message passing and interrupts.Swyx [00:35:00]: So you’re arguing there should be something better and more structured than Slack?Jake [00:35:04]: Yeah. For sure. I think Slack is awful, and Discord is awful too.Central Station: Context Routing, Support, and Incident ClustersSwyx [00:35:09]: This is the equivalent of my mom test. What have you done that has your solution to this?Jake [00:35:15]: Internally, we’ve built a tool called Central Station that aggregates all the context from our users. Every piece of feedback, every customer support item, everything gets aggregated into clusters. If an incident is brewing, we can determine how many users are affected and break off a discussion based on that.Jake [00:35:40]: That is more helpful than long-running channels where you’re trying to decide which channel to put something in. If you can dynamically aggregate information and dynamically route it to the right person based on context, it works better. We know internally that these four people are close to networking. If we see a networking thing, we can drill it down to those four people. If it’s with this part, we can look at the commits. This is no longer a manual process internally.Jake [00:36:13]: If you go to station or help.railway.com, that’s why we built it. We wanted to scale with a massive amount of leverage by aggregating feedback.Swyx [00:36:27]: This is built in-house?Jake [00:36:28]: Yep.Swyx [00:36:29]: I remember helping out on this one with Angelo in 2023. You scale a lot with a very small team.Jake [00:36:38]: Yeah. We’re about 10 times bigger now.Swyx [00:36:40]: You have your full developer code here? Very cool.Jake [00:36:44]: If you go to railway.com/stats, we expose this as a pub-sub-able thing. It’s all real-time metrics. There’s a way to get it as JSON somewhere if you care.Jake [00:37:01]: We’re big on trying to build everything in public and talk about what we’re working on. We’ve had issues in the past, and we’ll say, “Here’s how we’re fixing these things.” We’ve gotten compliments and flak for incident reports. We’re always trying to make them better and talk with people.Incidents, Disclosure, and Progressive RolloutsSwyx [00:37:20]: You had a big one recently. I liked that it was scoped to 3,000. You presumably used Central Station. Talk through what happened and how you address it internally as a team.Jake [00:37:38]: Internally, this one really sucked. It had to do with an upstream provider that didn’t do the behavior it said it documented, which is unfortunate given they wrote the RFC for how the behavior should work. We rolled those things out, and Central Station caught it initially when a couple users said caches weren’t invalidating. We turned it off immediately.Jake [00:38:03]: When you roll out to a large user base of three million people, you get a lot of disparate behaviors. We tested in staging and had tests, but we hit an edge case. We’ve hardened those systems, and now we can make that better. But it was a tough one.Swyx [00:38:39]: I always wonder how private disclosure is supposed to work if people find an issue. Are they supposed to contact you first? When you run a platform, these things will happen. What channels should people pursue to quietly resolve it before it becomes a bigger incident?Jake [00:38:59]: There’s responsible disclosure. We err on the side of over-disclosing and letting you know something is wrong versus having your provider gaslight you. We’ve erred on sharing those things more publicly, even if they impact a small subset of users. That’s a decision we’ve made internally. We have four values. One is honor. The honorable thing is to notify people to the widest degree at which they may have been affected or there was an issue, and then confront it head-on: why did it happen, what can we do better?Swyx [00:39:45]: Not the whole user base. That’s because of incremental rollouts and other things?Jake [00:39:50]: Yeah. Progressive rollouts.Swyx [00:39:54]: That should be the norm at all large platforms.Jake [00:39:58]: It should. A variety of companies do this. There’s the quote that Meta runs 10,000 different versions of Meta. To our earlier point about agents, they need the same thing. They need shadow traffic and all these other things. We’ve built so much ceremony around production being sacred that we need to make it trivially easy to test different behaviors in a safe environment. Then you can make mistakes in a safe environment.Safe AI SRE: Customer Agents, Forked Environments, and Production ParityAlessio [00:40:30]: Do you see a world where these things get automatically caught, not necessarily by your agent, but by your customer’s agent? The cache invalidation issue seems easy to check if you know to look for it.Jake [00:40:44]: It’s hard because to determine it, we almost need to hook into your observability infrastructure. That’s why we have the template loop on the platform: so you can roll things out progressively. You can roll out to Johnny Vibe Coder initially, or push a shard that someone consumes at their own leisure. Or you can roll it out over weeks: 0.1% of people, 1% of people, early adopters, then all the way up. That’s the non-deterministic version control we talked about earlier.Jake [00:41:30]: I believe that’s where most things should go, because most companies end up building staged rollout systems in-house. It’s the same thing built again and again at every company. There’s a massive opportunity to consolidate developer debt.Alessio [00:41:45]: You should have a free tier. Model providers give free tokens if you let them use the data. You could give free compute if someone is the number-one shard that goes out and lets you plug into their observability.Jake [00:41:55]: We do that. That’s why we talked about the impact on 3,000 people. We start with lower-impact people. Larger companies on the platform are last to receive those rollouts so they have a version of the platform that’s deeply stable.Alessio [00:42:16]: I have three services, so I’m sure I get the first rollout. You can nuke my thing at any time. There are all these SRE agent companies. Observability people also want agents that fix upstream problems. You have your own agent in the canvas now. How do you see that playing out?Jake [00:42:39]: It’s the stacking entropy problem. If you don’t have primitives to make iteration in production safe, it becomes difficult. If you’re an observability provider saying, “Here’s the fix to this error,” assume 80% are good and make sense. But in the last 20% long tail of complex issues, if you let somebody stamp it, you create an opportunity for an incident.Jake [00:43:08]: That’s why forked environments are important. People have staging, but it always drifts from production. You need primitives, workflows, and experience built first-party on the platform so you can fork any service at any point in time.Jake [00:43:33]: I think of the canvas as a sheet of transparency paper. The agent is a little guy you push up into the canvas. It should say, “I need to copy that service and that service so I can test these two things.” It gets a read-only copy of production. Anything that’s PII gets marked as a transform when we clone the database, create a copy-on-write version, or read from it. Then the agent makes changes and asks, “Does this actually work?” as close to production as possible.Jake [00:44:22]: That’s how close you have to be, or you get massive drift. The system becomes unstable. You see this with massive systems built on Docker for local, Kubernetes for production, and a specific thing for something else. That complexity slows developers and becomes unstable at scale, making it hard to iterate. We want to compress that way down and say, “As close to prod as possible is where we want to be.”From AISRE Skeptic to Agent BelieverSwyx [00:45:00]: I was texting Erica for questions, and she says you were originally not a believer in AISRE. Have you come around on it?Jake [00:45:10]: I flipped, but I’m still not a believer in AISRE if you don’t have the primitives to make it safe. If you unleash AISRE on production infrastructure without safe primitives for copying volumes and making sure things are fine, it’s going to nuke your production database. It’s not a matter of if, but when. I’m a big believer in making those loops safe.Jake [00:45:33]: I was a deep AI skeptic until 2023. In 2024, I thought, “Maybe I can roughly make this thing do it.” In 2025, I thought, “Now I can hold this.” Over winter break, everybody came back saying, “It’s almost impossible to hold this.”Swyx [00:46:01]: Did you see this on the Claude docs? CloudBot? OpenCloud?Jake [00:46:06]: It’s gotten to a point where it’s harder to hold it wrong than to hold it right. There’s a scene in Avengers where Vision picks up Thor’s hammer and says it’s terribly well-balanced. It self-balances and works well. I’m a deep believer at this point that this will be the dominant species: assembly, C, C++, JavaScript, words.Swyx [00:46:35]: It feels like a big jump.Jake [00:46:37]: It is. But it’s not like you abandon CPU-based discrete logic and move straight to fuzzy logic. You need both. Your skills should call code or applications or some static structure. You can use skills to distill what the procedure should be or how the code should act.Jake [00:47:02]: I’m coming to a thesis: you need three points. You need a clear spec defining the system, the code, and the tests. When you say it out loud, if you’ve been in engineering long enough, you’re like, “Of course. That’s an RFC, tests, and code.” But they all matter. Having them together lets them reinforce each other: the spec and tests match, but the code doesn’t, so reconcile it. Or the tests and code match but the spec doesn’t, so reconcile that. That’s the iteration loop.Jake [00:47:41]: That’s why you’re seeing people talk about software factories, docs, and reconciliation. Some of that is architectural astronomy if you don’t implement it, but that loop is where most things will end up.Swyx [00:48:07]: For listeners, we’ve been talking about this on the pod for three years: the holy trinity of specs and tests. Itamar Friedman from Qodo is the reference if people want to look it up.Self-Modifying Infrastructure and the End of Push-Pull-RebuildSwyx [00:48:18]: One thing I want to mention on the OpenCloud idea is self-modification. I don’t know how Railway would support it, but I have my OpenClaw, and I just tell it it has the Railway CLI and can do whatever. In theory, whatever capabilities or new infra it needs, it can call the Railway CLI, provision it, and add it to itself. The agent can modify its own infra.Jake [00:48:45]: It’s nuts. I have a loop set up where you put the Railway CLI on top of something that runs on Railway. You’re authenticated as whatever the current box is, and you can make any changes to it. Then you call Railway deploy, and it deploys itself.Jake [00:49:04]: It’s like: “I need to spin up this instance of this environment. I already exist in this environment. Excellent, I have access to a Postgres instance now.” That’s where we want to go with agentic, self-replicating infrastructure. That’s your loop: iterate in production. You continue making changes. If it works, merge it upstream. If it doesn’t, throw it away.Jake [00:49:37]: How do you make throwaway copies trivial to spin up and super cheap? The era of “I have an AWS instance with four vCPU and 16 gigs of RAM” is going to get destroyed. If you do that for agents, you need a thousand of those machines. It’s prohibitively expensive compared with what we’ve spent a ton of time figuring out: the atomic unit of deploy, whether you call it isolates, sandboxes, or something else. Only pay for what you use, spin up instantaneously, and close the loop as quickly as possible.Jake [00:50:15]: If the system can self-replicate safely and say, “This is my environment, I’m making these changes,” it can come back with, “Does this look good? This is a new state of infrastructure given this prompt. I think I’ve solved it.” Then you go back and say, “Actually, it looks different.” It does the loop again. Then you say, “Cool. Apply.”Swyx [00:50:38]: That’s retroactively obvious, which is the most useful kind. Any other comments on agent deployment on Railway?Jake [00:50:51]: It’s getting better every day. I’m on X or Twitter. You can always yell at me about the parts not working as well as they should, because plenty of things should work way better.The New Serverless: Stateful, Long-Running, Pay-for-What-You-Use LinuxSwyx [00:51:04]: At this stage, when people want massively or embarrassingly parallel compute, they usually talk serverless. I feel like there’s a new serverless compared to the previous five years of serverless. You’re in that new bucket. Do you have comparisons or philosophical differences you want to call out?Jake [00:51:31]: It’s somewhere in between. It’s the ability to run stateful, long-running workflows or executions.Swyx [00:51:42]: Vercel has Fluid Compute, Cloudflare has some container thing, Google has App Runner and others.Jake [00:51:55]: That’s where everything is roughly going, and it’s why we’ve been working on this for six years. We believe users need access to a computer: a box that speaks Linux. They need to deploy what they want. Other systems change the surface area of what you can build. For us, users need a computer and need to deploy anything they truly want. That’s why we’ve focused on the primitives: network, compute, storage. If we give you those and expose them so you can run things indefinitely, that’s where we believe it’s going.Jake [00:52:43]: Twitter has no nuance, so everyone says “servers” or “serverless.” It’s always somewhere in the middle: I want to run it for a long time, but I don’t want to provision the resource statically or pay for things I’m not using. That’s been our thesis from day one: pay only for what you use, run it indefinitely, and it is full Linux.Swyx [00:53:12]: That’s why I like the naming of Fluid. It’s fluid. Flexible.Heroku, Focus, and Carrying the Torch Without Becoming the PastSwyx [00:53:18]: Another milestone is the Heroku official deprecation. You’re one of the presumptive new Herokus. “New Heroku” has been a category for as long as I’ve been in developer tooling. It’s finally happening. What was that like? Any behind-the-scenes of, “This is the moment”?Jake [00:53:42]: You have people where you’re like, “You were running stuff on here? You, as this company?” It’s crazy that names you would know are running on it and now coming to us saying, “We want to move a lot of this off.”Swyx [00:54:00]: Any behind-the-scenes on why Salesforce let Heroku stagnate?Jake [00:54:05]: I can only guess. It’s hard when it’s not your business. Salesforce’s business is to build a great CRM. That’s their focus. Then you acquire a compute business as an offshoot. A lot of early Meta people talk about focus. Boz has a write-up about how in the early days of Meta they had no money, so they were forced to focus. Then they turned on the money tree and had no reason not to split their focus.Jake [00:54:52]: But that dilutes your product. You get offshoots where you ask, “Is this the focus of the business?” If it’s not core, it languishes. A lot of companies get in trouble when they split focus because they’re fighting a multi-front war, not just externally but internally for alignment. Where are we going? What are we doing? What is our purpose?Jake [00:55:24]: If you’re Salesforce-built and mission-driven, you want to work on Salesforce. Heroku is off to the side. It’s not core to the business. Getting resources, budget, focus, and alignment internally becomes hard. It was a matter of time.Swyx [00:56:06]: Kudos for them to call it out instead of leaving it unknown.Jake [00:56:12]: Their release was a little odd. They called it out, but they didn’t say they were shutting it down. Behind the scenes, I think they issued messages to people saying they should close accounts and that they were going to deprecate and remove things over time.Jake [00:56:30]: It’s crazy because some of my first deployment experiences were on Heroku. You start with dragging things into an FTP server, then you try to get a deploy working, and then it’s Heroku. It was the on-ramp for us. But the wheel turns. New things emerge. We’re happy to carry the torch for a lot of that. But we don’t want to be the new Heroku. We want to be the way people build and deploy software, and ultimately the way people monetize software over time.Swyx [00:57:19]: It’s still a big crown to be the new Heroku. There are 50 companies that fought for that.Jake [00:57:23]: Everybody is holding some portion of it. We’re happy to support people and companies. The platform works differently. The game loop is similar, but we’ve been dogmatic about where these things are going: primitives, agents, fan-out. Some things fit; some workflows need to change. We have an approximation of Heroku pipelines with the environment system. It’s exciting. We’ve got a ton of people we can support, and it’s growing a lot.Temporal, Workflow Engines, and State MachinesSwyx [00:58:12]: I have one more technical question about Temporal. I’ve sold my shares. You’re a power user and one of our earliest customers. I met you through Temporal. You built on Temporal. You have complaints. This may be the most neutral and informed conversation anyone will hear about Temporal without someone working at the company.Jake [00:58:39]: That’s fair. I’ve used Temporal for almost 10 years because of Cadence at Uber.Swyx [00:58:52]: Give people a sense of what Cadence was at Uber.Jake [00:58:57]: Cadence was the precursor to Temporal. It powers trip actions, rides, when you rent a Jump bike or scooter or car. You’re running workflows for a period of time and saying, “This ride will run indefinitely until it finishes.” You attach information: you paused in this zone, so add this charge to the bill. When you end the trip, the workflow is done. That experience was powered by Cadence at the time.Swyx [00:59:34]: I used to say it’s like programming the entire user journey top-down as one function.Jake [00:59:39]: It’s a powerful idea and important. It’s also important for the next phase of the agentic journey. You want an agent to do a specific task, be complete or incomplete on that task, and move on to the next thing. You need a way to manage workflows dynamically.Jake [00:59:59]: Temporal was always great in theory, and great when you got it working the way you wanted in production. But it required you to model the entire journey in your head. If you didn’t, you could cause issues where replaying the state of the workflow causes non-determinism.Swyx [01:00:25]: Because it works on deterministic workflow history.Jake [01:00:28]: Exactly. I describe it as a jet engine. If you know how to operate it and run it, it’s great. But you can’t hand it to people trying to build complicated things if they don’t have the whole state in their head.Jake [01:00:48]: We run our whole deployment pipeline on top of it. That’s a reasonably complicated workflow: pre-commit hooks, signaling, queuing, and all the rest. We ran into the same thing at Uber. As you express a large workflow, it gets more complicated, with more states in the state machine that you have to map back to the workflow.Swyx [01:01:15]: It’s a lot of ifs.Jake [01:01:16]: Exactly. At Uber, we built a system for doing the state machine and testing it. We’ve started to build some of those things here because it’s grown heavily. It’s not quite love-hate. When it works well, it works super well. But if someone who doesn’t have full context puts something into the system that invalidates state or causes non-determinism, or spins off a ton of activities, you have to keep track of underlying SRE knobs like activity slots. Those should scale with memory, vCPU, and so on. It becomes a bear to scale.Swyx [01:02:10]: You need a capable sysadmin running things behind the scenes. If you moved off, what would you do?Jake [01:02:19]: We’d build our own workflow engine. We have a few internally that we’ve worked on.Swyx [01:02:27]: This is one of those classes of things you typically wouldn’t vibe code, but I’m wondering if you can.Jake [01:02:33]: I still don’t think you should vibe code it. You still want to run decent tests to make sure it works.Swyx [01:02:39]: Timo didn’t invent that from scratch either. There are libraries you can run. On top of that, it’s just a state machine that you have to map out. Ultimately, you define the instructions you want and run them through a state machine.Jake [01:03:00]: It’s very doable. Workflow stuff is interesting. Restate is doing neat stuff here.Swyx [01:03:10]: You’re tied into JavaScript. Are you a JavaScript maxi?Jake [01:03:13]: Internally, we have TypeScript, Rust, and Go. We don’t add more languages. Actually, we have a little C because we write BPF code and hooks. But those are the languages.Swyx [01:03:28]: Is this for sidecars?Jake [01:03:32]: No. It’s for the networking stack, volumes, and things like that. We use TypeScript a lot because it powers the dashboard, but we’re moving a lot of workflow stuff off the dashboard stack and into the infrastructure stack.Railpack, Nixpacks, and Content-Addressable FilesystemsSwyx [01:04:00]: Cool. Any other technical infrastructure stuff? Railpacks?Jake [01:04:07]: We built an engine for determining dependencies based on source code. It’s called Railpack. We built the first version, Nixpacks, on top of Nix, and then we moved.Swyx [01:04:17]: People have been trying to get me to adopt Nix and NixOS for four years. Is it ever going to be a thing?Jake [01:04:23]: I don’t know. We’re excited about it, but it has pain points. Think of it as a stack of versioned binaries at specific slices in time. If you want version X and version Y, you bloat the package space, which blows up image size and makes real-world workloads difficult.Swyx [01:04:53]: But you content-address it and cache it. In theory, there are optimizations.Jake [01:05:00]: In theory, yes. But with a large enough user base and disparate enough machines, you run into a problem Meta described in the XFAAS paper, their internal serverless system. It becomes difficult at scale unless you break out specific runtimes.Jake [01:05:24]: We didn’t want to do that because we wanted to truly allow you to deploy anything. That was our initial thing with Nix. But we’ve moved toward interesting work around content-addressable file systems that can lazy-load anything from any point and page it into memory.Swyx [01:05:48]: Amazing.Jake [01:05:49]: The future is very bright. It’s crazy, and it’s going to be nuts.Coding Agent Spend, Roadmaps, and Token ROISwyx [01:05:54]: Founder journey stuff?Alessio [01:05:56]: Your cloud usage: you tweeted you’re going to spend $300K this month?Jake [01:06:01]: I think we got to $200K.Alessio [01:06:02]: Coding agents?Jake [01:06:03]: Yeah.Swyx [01:06:04]: Across the company?Alessio [01:06:05]: You only have 35 people, so I’m sure they’re not all spending $10K a month. What’s the distribution?Jake [01:06:10]: I think I’m at about $25K. We have power users all the way down. We came back from winter break, and I basically said, “If you’re writing code by hand, you’re doing this wrong.” The tools are good enough now that you can move extremely quickly. There are issues and pain points, but you should be reviewing the code you are writing instead of writing it by hand.Jake [01:06:40]: Architectural patterns matter more now than ever, but you shouldn’t spend your time generating code you would write. If you know how to write it, ask the agent to write it and reconcile it until it looks like you would have written it yourself.Jake [01:06:58]: People misconstrue my propensity to push people toward agents as connected to our growth and some reliability bumps. They’re not necessarily related. The tools are good enough to move extremely quickly and build things way larger than you could before.Jake [01:07:19]: To the earlier point about cooling data centers in space: I don’t know. But with software, you can ask, “How would I build block storage from scratch? How would I do these things?” I have ideas because I have history and have read papers. Let me work them out and build massive test benches with thousands of tests, because those are now free to author. If you’re not using AI systems to speed-run your roadmap and reconcile your existing system onto the future, you’re missing a large point of what’s happening.Alessio [01:08:12]: What’s the path to spending $3 million a month? Is it bound by ideas and things customers can absorb?Jake [01:08:19]: For most companies, it’s bound by deployment at this point. That’s why we’ve seen a massive boom in users and companies, from Fortune 50s down, asking how to get developers to move faster. You’ll probably hit your CFO before any technical limits because they’ll look at the eye-watering amount of money spent on tokens. Inference costs have to come down, but we’re inference constrained now. There will be price discovery around what makes sense for an org to adopt.Jake [01:09:06]: I think you’ll end up with the F1 driver concept. If someone is really adept at these things, it makes sense to put them in a $3 million car. If they’re not, it probably doesn’t make sense. You’ll take a few people and say, “You can drive the F1 car. We need to go in this direction. Figure out if it works and prototype it.”Jake [01:09:33]: We’ve done some of that and vastly accelerated our roadmap. We thought we’d ship something in a few years; now we can probably ship it in a few months because we validated it and don’t have to build it incrementally. We can skip steps and move toward our vision.Alessio [01:09:58]: A lot of people are realizing the roadmap doesn’t always have a business impact, so they say tokens are too expensive. But if your roadmap were built to make more money by the time you built it, you’d have token pricing for it, the same way you do with sales. You’d spend a billion dollars on sales if you knew you would get $2 billion of revenue.Jake [01:10:19]: Exactly. A naive way to measure this is the percentage of tokens that end up in production. If you can measure impact because those tokens end up in production, that’s awesome. But the burden of proof will rise. Internally, we have a growing number of pull requests that haven’t merged. The question becomes: how do you get this into production? It’s about how quickly you can build and deploy software, which is exciting because that’s our whole thing.The SDLC Shift: Prompt Requests, Feature Flags, and Safe RolloutsSwyx [01:10:56]: The SDLC is changing. One thesis is that the pull request is dying. It’s going to be the prompt request. Beyond that, code review is also kind of dying if you have all the other systems in place. What else is changing about the SDLC?Jake [01:11:19]: The AISRE and the tools to make it happen. AISRE is pie-in-the-sky aspirational. What does it take to get an AISRE? What tools do you need to build?Swyx [01:11:32]: You should expose your tooling to customers at some point. The Central Station command center.Jake [01:11:39]: We have it for template maintainers. Template maintainers can deploy and maintain templates, and they get feedback. We’re going to expose those things incrementally.Swyx [01:11:51]: Clustering around incidents. Everyone has a version of that, but I don’t think anyone has solved it.Jake [01:11:56]: I won’t say we’ve solved it internally, but it’s gotten so good that we can see incidents forming pretty quickly. At some point, those will be things either someone else builds or we build. We’ve always built things purpose-built for us. If it makes sense to make it useful for users, monetize it, or turn that loop into a profit center instead of a cost center, we want to do that.Jake [01:12:28]: Pull request is definitely dying.Swyx [01:12:29]: Do you do first-party feature flagging and incremental rollout stuff?Jake [01:12:34]: We have a feature-flagging engine we built internally and will eventually roll out.Swyx [01:12:38]: I don’t see it as a user. How come you didn’t give us what you have?Jake [01:12:43]: We have to beta test it. We care a lot about the quality of the things. There’s plenty we’ve used internally that doesn’t make it all the way through the journey because it fails. It works for one service but not multiple services. We’d have to build it for multiple services and know that if we released it, we’d rebuild it again and again. Some things are worth that, but many inform the roadmap.Jake [01:13:18]: We don’t want to dilute the experience by saying, “This works, but only for this service,” unless it’s a core initiative. Over the next few months, we’ll roll out things that work for a single service, then multiple services, then multiple services across the environment. You have to be deliberate. Otherwise you create broken disparate experiences and support load because people ask how to use the feature.Jake [01:13:52]: It’s the earlier expansion and compaction pattern. You expand the company to get features, then compact and smooth them out so the experience is stellar. You told me in the hallway, “It’s gotten so much better.” Internally we’re saying, “This part really sucks. We need to make it significantly better.”Swyx [01:14:11]: I can attest to that over the last three years watching you build Railway. For listeners, feature flagging is a huge part of Uber culture. So much so that they have too many feature flags and another thing to remove feature flags. Facebook has Gatekeeper. Agents are going to need this. It’s fundamental to incremental rollouts. OpenAI acquired Statsig. GPT-5 is routing and flagging through different models.Jake [01:14:56]: It’s super important. If the software development lifecycle is going to change because we’re doing things 1,000 times faster and 1,000 times more concurrently, what becomes important at scale?Jake [01:15:16]: Before I started Railway, I built a feature-flagging product and tried to sell it. It was an easier version of LaunchDarkly. I ran into a problem: anyone small enough to adopt your technology doesn’t care about feature flags, and anyone large enough to need feature flags needs so much scale that you have to build out all the infrastructure. I scrapped it.Jake [01:15:42]: But what is old is new again. Companies are trying to move quickly, but you can’t YOLO a vibe-coded thing straight into production. You need to say, “Here’s my blast radius, my impact, and I want to shadow it for these users.” Feature flags. You’re going to need the tools larger companies built to maintain their structures. Everything gets compressed by 1,000x so everybody can build those structures quickly.Jake [01:16:07]: That’s exactly where we are: compressing the software development lifecycle, then expanding it and adding more new things.Cattle, Pets, and Clonable InfrastructureSwyx [01:16:15]: Another term that comes to mind for newer developers is “cattle, not pets.” People treat production like a pet. It has a name. You baby it and keep it alive. With cattle, you can mass farm, roll out, portion parts out, and kill them.Jake [01:16:37]: I think that might change. You can move toward having pets as long as you have a cloning machine for your pets.Swyx [01:16:52]: Yeah.Jake [01:16:52]: If you can snapshot every single thing at every frame, it doesn’t matter if something gets obliterated because you have a snapshot of it. The things we’ve built right now are designed to block changes from the hermetically sealed DevOps line. You have to write a Dockerfile because you need a specific cut of the file system.Jake [01:17:14]: What if you had the whole file system? What if you snapshot it and lazily load the entire file system? Then you get around this problem entirely. You don’t need the ceremony of Dockerfiles, Ansible scripts, or other things. You can iterate, snapshot, ask if it’s the right loop or state, and then merge it into production. Merge the file system.Swyx [01:17:45]: Why not?Jake [01:17:46]: It’s going to be fun.Swyx [01:17:47]: This is a whole other can of worms, but if you cataloged the stateful things in a VM and developed dedicated solutions for each, you can cut the problem down a lot. It’s surprising people weren’t trying until now.Jake [01:18:04]: It has always been surprising to me because these are the things we would work on. It’s obvious.Swyx [01:18:11]: At first principles, you need them. Everyone needs them in theory. Then the big clouds don’t do them, so you assume it’s impossible.Jake [01:18:18]: Exactly. You think, “Meta has all the people writing eBPF code, and they’re doing something with them.” But you need that kind of work to solve these problems. Whatever is required, however deep we have to go, we’ll go all the way down to the kernel’s TCP/IP stack if needed. If we need to modify something to make it work for the mental model of the universe moving forward, we’ll do it and keep going down.Swyx [01:18:52]: That sounds fun.Jake [01:18:53]: It’s so much fun. I have to peel myself away from fun, interesting problems to make sure we can scale the company in a way that works. There are so many fun problems: getting information from customers to support to the person who built the thing internally, safe iteration, context from the dashboard to users, drilling down to the infrastructure layer, and managing orchestration as a real-time operating system versus a feedback control system. It’s just so fun.Solo Founder Lessons: Obsession, Writing, and FocusSwyx [01:19:29]: Speaking of the founder side, you’re famously outside the YC/SF consensus. You go to YC, get a co-founder, and do all these things. You did none of that.Jake [01:19:40]: None.Swyx [01:19:45]: In the elevator you said a co-founder makes sense if one person is the tech person and the other is the biz dev person. But you have to contain those multitudes yourself. How do you do it?Jake [01:19:58]: I try to get eight hours of sleep.Swyx [01:20:11]: Is there a balance: 50/50, 30/30/30? What’s the mental model as a solo founder?Jake [01:20:17]: There’s no balance. You have to think about all these things and be obsessed with them. Be obsessed with how people think about your product from a go-to-market perspective, and be obsessed with the kernel-level change that makes a user’s SSH connection never drop. I want a universe where you can snapshot everything and it feels like iterating on a VM.Jake [01:20:47]: You have to be obsessed at every layer of the stack. That’s what makes it easier for me. Some people are obsessed with different portions of the company journey, and if you can segment those lines well and be clear about ownership, you’ll have a good time.Jake [01:21:12]: I said two is the worst number of co-founders because you have no tiebreak. You disagree, and how do you resolve it?Swyx [01:21:38]: Usually someone is CEO, so they have the tiebreaker.Jake [01:21:43]: Totally. It’s hard every way you cut it. It’s hard if you get help, and it’s hard if you do it yourself. Running things is hard, but it’s so rewarding and fun.Swyx [01:21:56]: What have you found useful? A coach? Any advice that has been helpful?Jake [01:22:01]: I like to write a lot. I get in trouble a lot for my Twitter. I once said if you’re working weekends, you’re messing up your planning. I’ve gone back and forth on that because right now we’re at an extenuating time where it makes sense to work more. The goals are clear in my mind. If you have the vision and know where you’re going, work harder to distill that vision and do those things.Jake [01:22:33]: If you’re not certain and need clarity, disconnect and take your weekends seriously. Write about where you are, what you want to do, where you want to go, and what problems you’re solving.Jake [01:22:56]: Writing is important. I don’t love the word meditation, but whatever gets you into mental clarity is important when you’re trying to say, “We’re here and need to be here,” or “We’re here and I think we need to be in this general space for this to work.”Jake [01:23:22]: Disconnect, hang out with people you love, and work hard when you’re working. I try to work sunup to sundown, Monday to Friday, all out. I disconnect on Saturday and come back Sunday afternoon to write, plan the week, and do everything else. It works well for me.Jake [01:23:43]: Another hot take: most advice should be digested and thrown out the window. If it’s helpful, it’ll come back. You’ll learn it through experience. We have made failure very expensive as a society, and it makes it difficult for people to walk off the paths.GPUs, Focus, and the Dominant Role of AgentsSwyx [01:24:03]: Anything you haven’t tweeted and gotten in trouble with that you want to preview to the world?Jake [01:24:12]: The agent stuff is crazy. It’s going to be the dominant way people do pretty much everything, provided we can get the inference required for that to happen. Over the next 10 years, you’ll see a fundamental shift in how people think about authoring the logic in their head.Swyx [01:24:36]: One way of phrasing it is: if Allbirds can become a GPU provider, so can Railway.Jake [01:24:44]: I think there’s a lot of “everyone becomes a GPU provider” that is actually not becoming a GPU provider. You’re defined more by the things you don’t do than the things you do, because it’s easy to say yes to a lot of things.Jake [01:24:56]: Anthropic is amazing and moving into different zones. They’re moving into Figma-like things.Swyx [01:25:09]: As we’re recording, Mike Krieger was on Figma’s board, they removed him Monday, and then they launched this today.Jake [01:25:18]: Things move fast right now. But agents are going to be the way people operate.Swyx [01:25:25]: So your answer is focus: no GPUs for now, but never say never.Jake [01:25:27]: Focus. We will not do GPUs now, but we 100% will do GPUs at some point in the future. That’s not me leaking our roadmap because we don’t have plans to do GPUs. It’s just a function of needing FLOPS at some point. If you’re fully vertically integrated and want to make it trivial for people to iterate, build, and deploy, you need access to this core piece of fundamental logic.A New Cloud From First PrinciplesSwyx [01:25:57]: Presumably your own data center traffic is a minority of your workload right now, but is there a point where it’s a majority or you turn off public clouds?Jake [01:26:10]: At some point, we got to 100% data center: our own data centers. Right now, the vast majority of what exists on our platform is on our bare-metal data centers.Swyx [01:26:21]: So you’re already there.Jake [01:26:23]: Yeah. The transition was completed at some point, and then we grew so fast that we had to scale back on that. It got to 100% on the Datadog dashboard and then divoted back into the 90s because we were adding capacity.Swyx [01:26:45]: You’re literally building a new independent cloud, and people assume that could never happen post-AWS.Jake [01:26:53]: It’s hard. We’re going to figure out a bunch of things to make sure the platform is deeply reliable. But you have to break ground on new things when you decide to build a cloud from scratch but not copy the hyperscalers.Jake [01:27:10]: We’ve been deliberate about inventing our own infrastructure from scratch based on reading a ton of papers, while promising ourselves we wouldn’t copy someone else’s homework. If we copy someone else, we lose. You become them over time. You need a core thesis for why this business needs to exist now.Jake [01:27:33]: For us, the activation energy required to deploy something in production on hyperscalers is far too high. We believe it should be instantaneous. There should be no friction between your thought and the reality that comes out and that you can share with friends. That’s what we’re building toward at every layer of the stack. If we have to go down to energy, we’ll go down to energy.Jake [01:27:58]: It matters for giving people access to this tooling. It’s gated not just for citizen developers who are now vibe coding. You have multiple layers: citizen developer, front-end developer, back-end developer, DevOps person, and more. Those layers need to disappear so people can just ship.Swyx [01:28:20]: Amazing. That’s the future of cloud.Jake [01:28:22]: Awesome. Thanks for coming on. Thank you for having me. It’s been wonderful. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.latent.space/subscribe

Special discounts up for AIE Melbourne (LS discount) and AIE World’s Fair (group discounts up to 25% - CFPs still open for Autoresearch and Vertical AI) Cya there!Abridge did not start as an “GPT wrapper”. It was founded in 2018, years before the Cambrian explosion of AI application layer companies. OpenAI launched ChatGPT publicly on November 30, 2022 and by then, Abridge had already spent years doing the unglamorous work of building trust for one of the highest context, most important workflows in healthcare: the conversation between a patient and a clinician.Abridge’s original wedge was clinical documentation. Listen to the visit, generate the note, reduce the clerical burden, and let clinicians spend more time with patients instead of the EHR. By focusing on how doctors actually document, how health systems actually buy, how EHR integration actually works, how clinicians verify outputs, and how missing context during a visit turns into downstream friction across billing, prior authorization, quality, and follow-up, the adoption of LLMs became a force multiplier on a workflow already optimized for sensitive context gathering.The company has scaled fast: Abridge says it is projected to support 80M+ patient-clinician conversations this year across 250 large and complex U.S. health systems, with support for 28+ languages and 50+ specialties. It raised $300M at a $5.3B valuation in June 2025, after a $250M round earlier that year.Today, Janie Lee and Chaitanya “Chai” Asawa of Abridge join us for another crossover pod with Redpoint’s Jacob Effron (who is on the board of Abridge) to dive into how Abridge is building the clinical intelligence layer for healthcare starting with ambient documentation, then expanding into clinical decision support, prior authorization, payer/provider/pharma workflows, and eventually real-time agents that act before, during, and after the patient conversation. We go inside the product, data, infra, evals, workflow, privacy, and org design choices behind bringing AI into one of the highest-stakes enterprise environments from 100M+ medical conversations and specialty-specific evals to real-time alerts, EHR integration, de-identification, clinician-scientist teams, and why healthcare may solve some of the hardest AI problems first.We discuss:* Why Abridge started with clinical documentation, “pajama time,” and saving clinicians 10–20 hours a week* The transition from ambient scribe to clinical intelligence layer: save time, save money, and save lives* Why conversations between patients and clinicians may be the most important workflow in healthcare (patient visit summary feature)* Chai’s “healthcare-coded Glean” framing: context is king, but healthcare raises the stakes on safety, evals, and rollout* Why Abridge wants AI to feel like “air conditioning”: always in the background, but only interrupting when it truly matters* The prior authorization example: turning a denied MRI weeks later into real-time guidance while the patient is still in the room* Why payer policies, EHR data, medical literature, and hospital-specific guidelines make the problem hard, and also create the moat* How Abridge thinks about ambient form factors: mobile, desktop, in-room devices, nursing workflows, multimodality, and future AR* The multi-sided healthcare customer: CMIOs, CFOs, CIOs, clinicians, patients, payers, and pharma* The hardest AI problem at Abridge: high-quality, low-latency, low-cost real-time support in a high-stakes clinical setting* When Abridge uses frontier models vs proprietary models, and why its unique data from medical conversations matters* Why “every agent is a coding agent underneath,” and how the EHR can be thought of as a filesystem for healthcare agents* How Abridge approaches personalization across individual doctors, specialties, and health systems* Why “AI slop” is AI without context, and how edits, memories, and clinician preferences create a data flywheel* Abridge’s eval stack: LFDs, LLM judges, in-house clinicians, third-party evaluators, specialty-specific evals, and progressive rollout* HIPAA, PHI, de-identification, one-way anonymization, customer contracts, and learning from healthcare data safely* What changes when you operate at 100M+ conversations: reliability, cost, post-training, model routing, and infrastructure optimization* Why the same clinical conversation can serve doctors, patients, payers, pharma, and future clinical-trial workflows* How Abridge works with EHRs, and why deep interoperability is table stakes for clinician adoption* Why healthcare AI has regulatory tailwinds, why 80/20 does not work here, and why high-stakes domains may drive AI forward* Why Abridge embeds “clinician scientists” into product and eval teams* What Chai learned from Glean about search, quality, and durable AI infrastructure* Why the future of AI infra may look like context layers, event-driven systems, Kafka, Temporal, sockets, CRDTs, and tools built for humans* Why Janie changed her mind on “PRDs are dead,” and why crisp written clarity matters more in complex AI products* How Abridge uses Claude Code, Cursor, and coding agents internallyAbridge:* Website: https://www.abridge.com/* X: https://x.com/AbridgeHQJanie Lee:* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/janiejleeChaitanya “Chai” Asawa:* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/casawaTimestamps00:00:00 Introduction and what Abridge does00:02:05 From ambient documentation to clinical intelligence00:04:04 Clinical decision support and context as king00:06:57 Alert fatigue, proactive intelligence, and prior authorization00:12:36 Ambient AI form factors and healthcare customers00:16:59 The hardest AI problems in healthcare00:18:26 Frontier models, proprietary data, and model strategy00:21:07 The EHR as a filesystem for agents00:24:03 Personalization, memory, and clinician preferences00:30:40 Evals, LLM judges, and progressive rollout00:36:47 HIPAA, de-identification, and privacy00:39:21 100M conversations and operating at scale00:44:10 EHR integration and the clinical intelligence layer00:46:39 Healthcare regulation, latency, and high-stakes AI00:50:11 Clinician scientists and long-tail quality00:53:04 Lessons from Glean and durable AI infrastructure00:57:03 The future of agentic healthcare workflows00:57:34 PRDs, product clarity, and building serious AI products01:03:11 AI coding tools at Abridge01:04:06 OutroTranscriptIntroduction: Abridge, Clinical Intelligence, and the Latent Space x Unsupervised Learning CrossoverSwyx [00:00:00]: Okay. This is a special crossover Latent Space Unsupervised Learning pod.Jacob [00:00:07]: Very excited to do this.Jacob [00:00:08]: At this point, we get together once a year.Swyx [00:00:10]: Once a yearJacob [00:00:11]: And this is a fun occasion to get to do it on.Swyx [00:00:13]: I really wanted to talk to Abridge but I felt very underqualified because healthcare is not something we cover very intensely. It just so happens that Redpoint’s our big investors and supporters of Abridge.Jacob [00:00:27]: Anytime you want to have a portfolio company on your podcastJacob [00:00:29]: Please, by all means.Swyx [00:00:31]: So we’ll introduce our guests. Chai and Janie, welcome to the pod.Janie [00:00:34]: Thanks for having us.Chai [00:00:35]: Thank you.Janie [00:00:35]: We’re excited to be here.Chai [00:00:36]: Thank you.Swyx [00:00:36]: So for listeners, what do you guys do, just to situate you guys in the company?Janie [00:00:42]: Abridge is a clinical intelligence layer for health systems. We really started with documentation and building for clinicians and as we think about reducing the burden that clinicians have, they’re spending 10 to 20 hours a week on documentation. There’s a massive doctor shortage in the country. We also think that conversations between patients and clinicians are probably the most important workflow in healthcare. It’s where care is given and received but if you think about the 20% of our GDP that goes towards healthcare, almost everything is a derivative of that conversation, whether it’s the claim, the payment, the actual diagnosis given, the treatment. And we’ve started with a conversation to reduce the burden for doctors on documentation but we’re really excited about the path ahead as we become this broader clinical intelligence layer.Chai [00:01:34]: I’m Chai. I work on clinical decision support at Abridge.Swyx [00:01:37]: Yes.Chai [00:01:37]: And so as Janie said, we’re uniquely situated where we started off with the clinical note. What I’m really excited about and where we’re expanding towards is what are all the things you can do before the conversation, during the conversation and after the conversation if you did have access to all the context about patients, payer guidelines, medical literature and put that together and to serve, how healthcare could look fundamentally different.Swyx [00:02:01]: And that’s the context engine that you guys have?Chai [00:02:04]: Yes.Swyx [00:02:04]: Is that what it’s called? Okay.Swyx [00:02:05]: So historically, as I understand it, the company started in 2018. A lot of people would be familiar with the AI voice notes form factor that doctors would be “Well, do you consent to being recorded?” It replaces handwriting and what have you. But it sounds like more recently there’s been a big transition in the company. Tell me about the broader transition.From Documentation to Clinical Intelligence: Save Time, Save Money, Save LivesJanie [00:02:26]: So from a transition perspective, we really think about our journey as The first act was: how do we help save time? And that’s where a lot of that original product was.Swyx [00:02:37]: By the way, one of those interesting statsSwyx [00:02:39]: On your landing page was, doctors spend time after hours.Janie [00:02:43]: They call it pajama time.Swyx [00:02:44]: Why is that pajama time?Janie [00:02:46]: Doctors after work in their pajamasSwyx [00:02:48]: In their pajamas. OhJanie [00:02:49]: At home are just writing and catching up on their notes every day.Janie [00:02:53]: Some of our favorite customer love stories, we have a Slack channel called Love Stories. We have clinicians telling us, “Abridge has helped us, from retiring early or we’re now finally able toJanie [00:03:06]: go home and eat dinner with our kids for the first time.”Chai [00:03:08]: Save the marriage in some cases.Swyx [00:03:10]: One of the quotes was “We’re not divorcing anymore.”Swyx [00:03:12]: I’m asking, “Why?”Swyx [00:03:14]: Because they’re working too much.Janie [00:03:16]: But, in terms of where we’re going and where we’re expanding, we really think about our second and third acts around how do we help health systems save and make more money. Health systems are operating with record-low operating margins. It’s getting harder and harder to serve patients and they have regulatory, some tailwinds but also a lot of headwinds coming their way and AI is ripe for helping on the saving and make-more-money piece. And then ultimately, how do we help save lives? The fact that our software and our product is open millions of times a week before, during and after a patient walks in the room, gives us massive opportunity with products like clinical decision support, which Chai is building but so many others to improve patient outcomes and probably one of the most important workflows and problems to be going after right now.From Glean to Healthcare: Context Is KingJacob [00:04:04]: One thing that’s interesting, Chai, is you came over to Abridge from Glean and clinical decision support, which for our listeners is, in the context of a visit, helping a doctor figure out the right type of care. It’s really a search problem in many ways, going through lots of different data sources. Very analogous to your previous role as one of the earliest engineers over at Glean. I’m sure a lot of our listeners are curious what’s similar about the problems that you’re going after now and what feels different, now that you’re in healthcare.Chai [00:04:33]: Very similar. Taking a step back, with every wave, there’s a lot of very similar patterns that happen across different products. A lot of social networking products look the same. A lot of credit-based products look the same. And we’re seeing that very similar in the agent era with many companies, of course, in Redpoint’s portfolio and so forth. And the key insight between both companies is that you have amazing models but context is king. Context is what puts them to work. So I see it in a lot of ways, a lot of similarities in this is a healthcare-coded version of Glean but the differences are really interesting. A couple things that come to mind. First and foremost, the rigor of the setting we’re in. The downside risk is extremely high here in healthcare. It can be fatal in some cases. You prescribe something that the patient is allergic to for example. Whereas at Glean, it’s “Oh, you got the question wrong.” It wasn’t the end of the world in most cases. And so what does that mean? That shapes our evaluation strategy, both offline evaluation, progressive rollout and there’s a lot more we could go into there. Second thing that comes to mind is, vertical versus horizontal. In both cases, there’s a large variance but when Glean is, it’s a much more horizontal company, there’s a variance of personas, companies that you’re working with. We also have a variance of personas, different types of specialties, different hospital systems. But the variance is a little more narrow. So from a product perspective, you’re able to focus far more, especially when you have a maturing technology and you’re building new products that never existed before. It lets you go after them much more easily and especially in healthcare where so many problems were solved with labor and process, that it’s extremely ripe for AI to keep helping augment and enable. And the final thing that’s really interesting, Abridge specifically compared to many other companies in the AI area, is the modality we started with where we’re ambient and we’re always listening in the background. And many more AI products will go that way but it’s how we started. And that’s the greatest form of AI we can create, AI that’s seamless. You’re not looking at your screen. It’s always there. It’s always helping you out and being proactive. The Jarvis vision that, every hackathon I went to over the past decade, there was always a Jarvis competitor. But Abridge very much started from the opportunity and continues to go that way.Ambient AI and Alert Fatigue: When Should the Product Interrupt?Jacob [00:06:57]: One thing that is super interesting then from a product perspective is you have this always-on seamless in the background and then you have to decide when you break the wall almost and say, “Hey, clinician, you might not have thought about X,” or whatever it is that you want to do. And in healthcare traditionally there’s been this idea of alert fatigue and a million pop-ups and then a doctor just ignores all of them. It’s probably a pattern that a lot of builders are thinking through now. How do you think about the right way to intervene or to pop up in a doctor visit?Janie [00:07:26]: It’s such a good question. Alerts are notorious in healthcare specifically. Over 90% of alerts are ignored. The first and most important thing is context is everything, as Chai alluded to and I also think about how do we go from being reactive alerting to really proactive intelligence at the point at which it matters most. One thing we like to say is we want our product to feel like air conditioning. It should be in the background just making things better and if there is something that has great clinical risk and we’re acutely aware that intervening now and not later is incredibly important, we should decide to act. But if you think about proactive versus reactive, instead of alerting a clinician during a visit when they’re with their patient having a pretty serious and sensitive conversation, how do we prep a clinician before they walk into the room with that patient? And so historically, clinicians might have to manually go through charts with a patient that they’ve had over the course of months or years and they’ll try to suss out what are the things they should be doing. You can imagine a world with Abridge. We’ll summarize all of the most recent context for you, tell you based on the reason for a visit the patient is coming in for the types of things you should be discussing. And so you’re going into that conversation prepped rather than walking in cold to that patient visit and then having this product interrupt you five or 10 times throughout the visit. And there might be times where it’s really important to interrupt. We have a product called Prior Authorization and so this is when you may go into a doctor’s office with knee pain. They’ll prescribe you an MRI and so many of us have had this experience before, where in four weeks you’ll get a call saying, “Hey, Sean, that MRI that you were prescribed wasn’t approved and why don’t you come back in? We’ll figure it out.” In a world with Abridge, we might choose to quietly but still alert a doctor in that visit. And alert is probably not even the word we would want to use. Before a patient leaves, we would want to tell the doctor, “Hey, Doctor, before Sean leaves, you should ask him, has he had physical therapy and has his pain lasted for more than six weeks? Because the Aetna plan that he’s on in California requires six things. We’ve already confirmed four of them have been met ‘cause we have all the context. But these two last criteria, if you can address with Sean before he leaves the room, we could guarantee that your MRI is approved before you leave.” And so when you think about clinical usefulness, impact to the patient, there are instances in which if we can catch a doctor while the patient is still in the room, as we think about save time, save money, save lives, we get to check all of those boxes. But when doctors have 15 minutes between visits, we have to be really thoughtful about when it matters.Prior Authorization: Reducing Latency in CareChai [00:10:23]: There’s this interesting product opportunity AI has is reducing latency in the world. For example, prior authorization is an example of where care gets delayed and so great AI can reduce that. And the problem with alerts before partially is a technical problem: the quality of your alerts really matters. They’re going to get ignored if you get alerts that... Similarly in engineering, where they’re noisy alerts that you can’t act on. But if you can make really high-quality alerts with both the context, as Janie said, and really high-quality models, then you can create a whole other game.Janie [00:10:53]: And I really like that experience because it starts to tease apart, what makes this so hard and unique. One, to make that prior authorization example possible, think about all the data that you need to have. You need to integrate with the electronic health record to know all of the patient context. Do we have access to your previous labs, previous imaging? And then to match you and to know that you’re on Aetna, we have to collect all of the different payer policies and they vary by state. Some of these payer policies live on websites. Some of them live in unstructured 50-page PDF files.Jacob [00:11:31]: I thought this episode wasJacob [00:11:31]: To make sure we didn’t scare people from healthcare.Janie [00:11:34]: But when you think about the things that make it hard, it also gives you the moat.Janie [00:11:39]: And then the second is the AI and the model quality we need to be able to hang our hat on. And so the bar, similarly when I worked at Opendoor, I worked on pricing models. Every outlier wiped out the margins of 30 and so similarly here in healthcare, the bar for accuracy is so high. And then I’d say the last is workflow is everything. If insurance companies deploy AI, it typically happens too late and this is when you have the notorious comical examples of AI just fighting each other when it’s too late. But if we can pull forward the use of both the AI but also the ability to solve problems when the patient’s in the room, you can start to collapse what typically takes weeks or months after your visit, ideally down to minutes or real-time. And it’s where healthcare is both very difficult but also extremely rewarding if you can crack it.Product Form Factors: Mobile, Desktop, In-Room Devices, and ARSwyx [00:12:36]: Just to get some baseline on the form factors, because I’ve seen some videos on your website and stuff. You guys talk a lot about ambient AI. Is it primarily on the phone? Is there any other form factor that people get Abridge in? Is there an Abridge room setup where it’s always on? I don’t know.Jacob [00:12:55]: An Abridge podcast studio.Janie [00:12:58]: Primary form factor is mobile and desktop. UsuallyJanie [00:13:00]: Clinicians are walking in and out of rooms with mobile but at the end of the day, when they’re closing out their notes or wanting to prep for the day ahead, they might use desktop. We have been having a lot of really interesting partnership conversations with a lot of these in-room device companies as you think about the power of multimodality and even more data, as you think about all of what is not captured today. It is fascinating to think about, especially even as we go into building and scaling our nursing product. It’s one where nurses constantly, as they’re walking in to check in on a patient for two minutes or maybe even 30 seconds,Janie [00:13:43]: Starting an Abridge experience is probably going to take longer than the visit. And so what can we do with in-room devices that are always on starts to raise really interesting and fun product questions.Swyx [00:13:54]: I was thinking, the way in tech companies we have all these Google MeetSwyx [00:13:58]: And other things, we might as well set up entire rooms with just Abridge tech.Chai [00:14:02]: Very much. AR glasses and related form factors are also relevant: how do we bring the information to the clinician in real-time without a screen, while still letting them focus on the patient?Swyx [00:14:18]: Do you think they want that? I’m skeptical of AR, but I’m curious what you’ve tried.Chai [00:14:26]: Admittedly, it’s not a near-term product roadmapChai [00:14:29]: By any means. I’m being far-fetched.Jacob [00:14:31]: There’s some sick AR stuff for surgeries.Swyx [00:14:33]: Really?Jacob [00:14:33]: When people are trying to visualize, you’re about to make an incision but you want to see, what the cut might look or what the body might look like inside and they can layer in imaging.Swyx [00:14:43]: That’s cool.Chai [00:14:45]: At some point in the future.Janie [00:14:46]: But there are a lot of our largest customers and at the largest health systems integrating already and so even as we think about building into it, unlocks a lot of product capabilities.Swyx [00:14:57]: And just to establish the terminology. Sorry, and I know I’m asking basic questions somewhat for myself but also for the audience who might beHealth Systems, Buyers, Clinicians, Patients, and PayersSwyx [00:15:05]: Less integrated. When you say health systems, it’s like the Johns Hopkins, the Kaiser Permanentes.Janie [00:15:09]: Mayos, the Kaisers of the world.Swyx [00:15:10]: These are your customers, right? And the outcome that you deliver for them is happier doctors, reduced cost of processing, reduced mistakes. It’s weird in a sense that I feel like there’s also, a secondary customer, the customer of the customer and I don’t know if you — do you think about it that way?Janie [00:15:28]: The other interesting and complex part of building product is we have our buyers, who are the chief medical information officersJanie [00:15:39]: The chief financial officers, the CIOs of these large health systems. Our users today are clinicians but if you think about who downstream is impacted, it’s patients. And so as we build, with every product in mind, we think about who we’re building for, who the secondary user is and what does that mean either in terms of experience, security compliance, ROI that we have to make tangible. And so like you said, time savings is one of them. But for CFOs, they care a lot more than just time savings. We have to show for every dollar you put into Abridge, because you have more compliant documentation or because you have fewer queries coming from your billing team, we save or add real dollars to your bottom line or top line, are things that we’re constantly thinking about because of the dynamic across all three sets of users.Chai [00:16:32]: There’s a whole other axis too with the payers and pharmaChai [00:16:35]: as well. Connecting all these three big stakeholders in healthcare isSwyx [00:16:39]: Do the payers ever see your data? Sorry, the payers meaning the insurers, right?Chai [00:16:44]: Yes.Swyx [00:16:44]: They also see Abridge data?Chai [00:16:47]: NoSwyx [00:16:47]: Like the direct integration to you guysChai [00:16:48]: They wouldn’t see the raw Abridge data but when you’re working together on something like prior authorization, whatever information they need, we’d communicate to them.Jacob [00:16:59]: That’s cool. I would love to dig into the AI side. You still have a lot of problems on the AI side. And so maybe to start at the highest level, what’s one of the hardest problems you have to solve in AI at Abridge today?The Hardest AI Problems: Quality, Latency, and CostChai [00:17:11]: To make things simple, let’s take, building off the prior auth example. So one thing Janie talked about is okay, this data is all over the place and there’s this combinatorial explosion of procedures, payer policies and even sometimes different health systems. There can be some cross-product of all of these different considerations you have to take into account. But what’s really hard about this problem is doing it real-time in the conversation. So, in any AI product, usually the three KPIs you care about are quality, latency and cost. Now, what we’re saying is we want you to do this real-time in the conversation, guiding the clinician. How do we do it in a way that does not break the bank? But we’re using — But we also need very intelligent models because you’re working with this cross-product of data and this, all this context layer as well. So you need high intelligence and high-quality because you don’t want the alert fatigue but you also need to be fast and cost-effective. And so that’s where a lot of clever engineering goes. It’s okay, without getting into all the details here, can you model these policies in some intermediate representation or other things that you can do that can make this problem tractable? And of course, the Pareto frontier is always changing but we are also trying to do this now.Model Strategy: Third-Party Models, Proprietary Data, and Medical ConversationsJacob [00:18:26]: What implications has that had for what you take off-the-shelf and say, “ what? We don’t need to be world-class at X. We’ll just take this from the model providers or from some infrastructure player,” and what you’re “No, this is where we spend most of our time focused on”?Chai [00:18:38]: This is, the fun challenge in AI?Jacob [00:18:42]: It changes every three months? SoChai [00:18:42]: Of course, with the shifting landscape, we try to be extremely thoughtful on predicting the trends of where third-party models are going and where we can uniquely go. And, sometimes when you talk about AI models, we’re the models are just going to get infinitely better. But I don’t think... It may be in the grandness of time you could say that but, within every month, every quarter, there’s specific ways they’re getting better. They’re training on a lot more, coding data to be better coding agents, for example. And soChai [00:19:14]: We have to think about where are the things that won’t — unique data that we’re uniquely training on or to step back a little, where is a proprietary model bringing advantage to us is if it can give higher quality or lower cost and latency for similar quality, very similar to many other companies. And when we can do that is when we have proprietary data. So, for example, we have on the order of eighty million or hundreds of millions now getting close to of medical conversations.Jacob [00:19:44]: It’s insane.Chai [00:19:45]: This is a unique data set. And this data set, it’s very interesting because this data set is effectively a large part of the trace between the patient and the provider. That’s where the quote-unquote debugging happens in healthcare. We have these traces at scale, as in as, our CEOs even called it, an exhaust that comes out of our product. And so when you have these traces, that’s how you can train better agents on certain use cases, whether it’s your transcription diarization use cases or so on or like note generation models and we can do that much cheaper and faster. But we’re always also working with these third-party model providers. We closely collaborate with them and that’s how we predict where the trends are going. The thing that I think about a lot is that, I know that the model providers are going to train much more on agentic workflows and so forth, so that’s great, so that you have a better agentic harness. But the other thing that’s interesting is that the model providers, because a large class of the consumer model providers is healthcare queries, that they might, optimize to train a lot of healthcare data to encode the knowledge in its weights. And this is just a great thing for us as well, where the off-the-shelf models can keep bett-getting better at general healthcare information, such that what our strategy is, we have a constellation of models, we can use something for this, that and, we only care about, at the end of the day, the best product experience.EHR as File System: Agentic Workflows and Real-Time InterfacesJacob [00:21:07]: And, you have, overall capabilities improving. I’m curious, as these models get better, is there something you look at and you’re “, three months ago, we really couldn’t do that but God, the the latest models really allow us to do it”?Chai [00:21:19]: So here’s something interesting that I’ve, been toying with. So all models are... This wasn’t super obvious a year ago but now it’s become clear and clear that almost every agent is a coding agent underneath the hood? So you give it whatever file system, it can write its own code and so forth. So when you think about within healthcare and the use case that we have, you can think of the EHR effectively like a file system. It’s just — it’s a storage of all this information. It’s a lot of information there that cannot fit into the context window, at least of today’s models and you want to use that context effectively for all these product use cases we’re talking about. And so if you have better agents that can, manipulate data, read that data, treat it as a file system as we see they’re going and we know model companies are investing this way, then that very directly benefits us.Swyx [00:22:09]: Yeah. Okay, cool. Again, just establishing basic things. But we’re going back to the model stuff. I’m really interested in double-clicking more on the real-time, element, which is pretty important for both of you. Is it — Is real-time just batches of every one minute, every five minutes? Is that how we do it? Or is there some more native, genuinely real-time in the sense that OpenAI has a real-time API or Gemini has a real-time API?Chai [00:22:35]: Yeah. Yeah. So today it is more on the on the batch basis but there’s interestingChai [00:22:41]: Prototypes that we have that we’re still not fully, full time, voice in text out or in that sense. But, can you trigger your models, your agents or agentic workflows, depending on the right times in the conversation?Chai [00:22:58]: And so you can imagine, different techniques to bring this latency down and, you want to bring the feedback loop down as much as you can. And so a lot of clever engineering there without fully... Maybe one day we’ll do full voice in and text out, train a model to do something like that.Swyx [00:23:15]: You do — People don’t want voice in voice out?Chai [00:23:18]: Now we aren’t creating experiences that are, during the conversation, inter — It’s almost likeSwyx [00:23:25]: Might be too disruptiveChai [00:23:26]: Too disruptive until, who knows, maybe eventually you could have full voice agents once we — the quality and we improve the comfort of the technology. But right now gra — that change is much more gradual and it’s more text focus, text out.Janie [00:23:42]: And so much of currently what our product is trying to do is allow a clinician to focus on their patient and maybe at some point but right now patients, clinicians don’t want a third voice, at least in a literal voice in that room. And so how do we be there with all the contacts and information ready at hand when there’s the right moment?Personalization: Individual Doctors, Specialties, and Health SystemsJacob [00:24:03]: Jenny, one thing I’m curious about is how you think about, personalization in the product. I imagine, every doctor is a special snowflake in their own way, has their own way they like to do things. There are probably a bunch of different approaches you could take to doing that, both within the model layer itself but then also just with clever prompting or engineering. How do youJacob [00:24:20]: Deliver on that?Janie [00:24:21]: It’s such a good question. Personalization is massive for us. We think about personalization at three levels. The first is at the individual, the second is at the specialty level and then the third is at the health system or the organization level. To your point, there are a lot of individual preferences. You-When a note is produced, it almost is a reflection that is so deeply personal of a doctor’s work and how they give care. And so do they have preferences on things like style? They might want bullets versus paragraphs, really concise versus comprehensive. They also might have phrases that they really like to use or the templates that they want every note to be structured. And, we see it in our feedback all the time. We want two spaces in between sentences or I refuse to use this tool. And so that’s something that we’ve had to build in. And the tricky part is how do you make sure that stylistic preferences don’t interrupt accuracy and quality and that’s something that we’ve really had to refine and hone over time. Second is at the specialty level. A cardiologist note or workflow is going to look very different from a dermatologist workflow.Jacob [00:25:32]: I assume cardiology notes are the highest stakes for you guys, given your CEO is a cardiologist.Jacob [00:25:36]: It’s “Oh my God, make sure we get this one.”Janie [00:25:37]: Shiv, our CEO, is still a practicing cardiologist. He rounds once a month. And so, first call when we want just quick and easy user feedback too.Janie [00:25:46]: But, specialties require a lot of personalization, both in terms of what does the product look and so we make sure that as new users onboard, we catch that and the product proportionally reflects that. But also on the back end, evals at the specialty level, they are hard-earned to calibrate and get. What does a really great dermatology note look like? What makes it complete? What makes it compliant and billable is very different than a primary care doctor. And so it’s not just about what does the product experience look but on the back end tuning and really deepening our understanding for the specialists. What does great output look like? And that’s, a problem that we need to calibrate internally, externally, online, offline but, takes lots of cycles but is necessary in a high-stakes environment. And then at the health system level, for products like clinical decision support, you have health systems who’ve spent years or decades refining their best practices and they want to know, “Hey, we love your clinical decision support product but how do we embed our own hospital guidelines into them to inform clinicians before, during or after a visit what brest — best practices should look like?” And as you think about, deepening moats as well, when health systems, trust us with that data, allow us to productize it and directly into the clinical workflow, makes us a really great partner to health systems who want to build something that truly meets their needs, their practicing guidelines.AI Slop, Memory, and Product Data FlywheelsChai [00:27:23]: And I want to add onto that. The for the clinical documentation problem, it’s very similar to AI writing that doesn’t feel like your own and then we call that slop. But the way I describe one framing of slop is like AI without context. But we have all that context and both the clinicians, can have it and can guide it. And so part of the other interesting exhaust for us is, memory is, one of these new systems recordsChai [00:27:49]: Almost.Janie [00:27:50]: And we also have all the edits people make on our product and when you think about a data flywheel and how we get better over time becomes really powerful as a mechanism to just going deeper in personalization.Jacob [00:28:04]: It’s interesting. I love this idea of working with systems on the guidelines they built up over a long time. I feel like so many of the best AI app companies today are... The question is: How do you take the expertise that a law firm or a bank has built up over many years and then add that as context and also a special sauce over, a an AI tool? And so seems like y’all are really doing that very effectively.Janie [00:28:24]: We’re now starting to have our customers ask, “What are other customers doing?”Janie [00:28:28]: “And how are they doing it?”Janie [00:28:30]: And as we think about having visibility across such a large set of care being delivered right now, a really interesting place we could also partner.Swyx [00:28:40]: I’m just curious. I — This may be a nothing question but, how different are health system guidelines from each other? Don’t they all converge to the same thing? And if not, where do they differ?Chai [00:28:52]: At a really high level, they’re going to talk about very similar things but the difference is probably in some more of the details. “Oh, you should refer to specialists only when XYZ conditions are met,” or so forth and maybe different organizations have different practices and guidelines around that. But high level, talking about similar things but the details are what, of course, that shapes the context and the decisions you make.Swyx [00:29:15]: And this all goes into the context engine and it might affect the notes but maybe not.Chai [00:29:21]: The — For these local pathways, we’re definitely thinking about it a little more for our clinical decision support product.Chai [00:29:26]: So yeah.Swyx [00:29:27]: Which is your stuff, yeah.Swyx [00:29:28]: And then the memory which you raised, let’s just tell us more about that. What have you tried in memory? What’s the structure of the memory? What works? What doesn’t work?Chai [00:29:38]: There’s, of course, many different ways you could do memory, where it’s okay, can you bake it into the model weights or can you do it in some external store? For us, what’s interesting is, of course, when you think the models are rapidly changing, whether it’s in-house or third-party, baking into the model weights, sometimes you worry that it could be a little throwaway. And so, how do you... You need to find a way that you decompose the problem, the preferences from the underlying models and so forth. The thing we’re right now most both that’s easiest to start with and we’re excited about is having, a separate store for memory, where you have, for example, a memory sub-agent that’s, working in the background, figuring out what are the important parts of the clinician’s actions that we want to remember for the long term. And then you can also imagine, other things where in the — you have background jobs that are running that are collating these, memories similar to Sleep, of course and what other pattern, patterns products do as well. Learning over all these action, all the action data we have, again, note edits, the conversations they did and the actual transcripts.Evals: LFD, LLM Judges, and Clinical SafetyJacob [00:30:40]: What about evals? How in the world do you... It is such a complex product surface area. We would love to hear you riff on that and also how has that evolved? I’m sure you’ve gotten better at it, so any learnings along the way.Janie [00:30:50]: From an evals perspective, we, from day one when we build any new product or feature, we think about, what does good look like? And there are table stakes things like clinical safety but then you start to get deeper into what does good quality look like. And when you go into something like our core product, there’s stuff like style and completeness and there’s things like does this note become something that can be billable, which is very high stakes for a health system. We have a number of ways in which we get confidence for this. We have, internal in-house clinicians who do what we call an LFD process to give us our very first pass at is this or isn’t this a good enough output, look at the effing data.Jacob [00:31:41]: LFD?Chai [00:31:42]: That’s why I was smiling. I was “Is Janie going to mention what it stands for?”Jacob [00:31:46]: I was not... There’s like a million acronyms.Jacob [00:31:48]: How am I supposed to know that I don’t? So “Oh yeah, of course, an LFD.”Swyx [00:31:51]: I’ve never heard of LFDs.Chai [00:31:53]: It’s a bridge for sure.Janie [00:31:55]: I got through three days and then I had to ask someone.Janie [00:31:58]: I thought it was just me that didn’t knowJanie [00:32:01]: It’s our internal process.Swyx [00:32:02]: But look at the data as a meme in ML, ‘cause you tend to not look at it. You just want to look at number go up.Chai [00:32:06]: Exactly.Swyx [00:32:07]: But yes.Janie [00:32:08]: But so, we make sure we look at the data and then as we think about all of the components of good output, we, one, create LLM judges across all of these and we make sure with annotated data and either internal or external evaluators, we feel like these judges are calibrated. And then depending on the stakes, we also work with in-house and third-party evaluators across all of these before we ship any big change. And the goal is, in terms of evolution, how do you go from this process taking months, down to weeks, down to days? Some of it is, a true science and ML problem. A lot of it’s also just, hard operational work. Have you planned ahead in terms of what you need? Have you really optimized the capacity that you need across all of the different specialties you need? Have you gotten a really good sense of which third parties are great to work with for what use cases? This takes a lot of domain, expertise and, lots of mistakes and errors in figuring that out. And so as much of it is an ML problem, so much of it has also been operational gains that are hugely important, where domain-specific expertise is everything.Specialty-Level Evaluation and Progressive RolloutsJacob [00:33:23]: But it’s funny, ‘cause I feel like people talk about healthcare like it’s one giant market and the reality isJacob [00:33:26]: It’s, dozens and dozens of sub-markets. And so it feels like in your evals you have to build that up across the board, probably.Swyx [00:33:34]: And is specialization the primary cardinality at... That’s the word that comes to mind.Janie [00:33:40]: Sometimes, depending on the product or the use case. And so if we’re making a note improvement or feature for a particular specialty, definitely but we have products that are for nurses. We have products that, are really aimed at making the document or the output a lot more billable. And so we’ll want to work with coding teams and not necessary clinicians. And so likeJacob [00:34:05]: Coding meaning healthcare coding.Janie [00:34:06]: Yes. Yes.Jacob [00:34:07]: NotChai [00:34:07]: Yes. I see you.Swyx [00:34:07]: Other kinds.Janie [00:34:09]: But is this output proportional to the work that was delivered? Is there sufficient documentation to justify the amount that a health system may end up charging? And so, specialty sometimes but also domain, very different across all of the different products that we’re working for. And building out that network is, not easy and is where a lot of our operational investments have gone into.Chai [00:34:35]: And I view a lot of analogies to self-driving cars here, where, part of it is we really want progressive rollout of features to test in the real world is this useful? Is this going to work? One big difference compared to past lives is before I’d build a product, maybe I’d alpha it and then I’d like GA it the next week, ‘cause I’m “Go, move fast, ship,” and whatnot. But the mentality is like you... I want to make contact with the reality as quick as possible but I want a progressive rollout. Because as much as I get as large of an offline eval set, I want the distribution of that to match real-life distribution. And over time, by rolling out early, similar to Waymo has a tagline, “The world’s most experienced driver,” another thing that can, at least linearly increase for us is, both the size of our evaluation offline and online, that and it all feeds back.Janie [00:35:25]: Something that’s been earned over time, speaking of evolution, is just the trust we’ve gotten with customers. Historically, a lot of these health systems, when they bring on new vendors, their release cycles are quarters, sometimes twice a year. We’ve gotten our customers onto monthly release cycles, which is pretty fast for health systems but what is more exciting over the last, call it, few quarters, has been, a subset of our customers have said, “We want to innovate with you. We trust you,” and we have a pretty, decent chunk of our customers who say, “We’ll develop with you outside of these monthly release cycles. We have a higher tolerance. We know that the stakes are very high but we want to be the first ones using these products, giving you feedback.” And so for a pretty substantial set of our customers, we’ve been able to convince them to be able to ship, in this gradual way before GA. Something we talk about a lot internally is, trust is earned in drops, earned in buckets and so we still can’t do what I used to do when I worked at Loom. We had 30 million users. I’d just be, rolling out experiments left and. The bar is still quite high for iterative rollout but because of the trust we’ve earned, we’re able to learn at pretty high volume very quickly.Privacy, HIPAA, and De-IdentificationSwyx [00:36:45]: Your scale is still pretty huge.Swyx [00:36:47]: One thing I want to... We were going to go into scale? In a sec. One thing I wanted to call up, follow up on evals, which, again, just coming from a generalist engineer point of view, just thinking through what would people be scared of in doing this, the privacy and HIPAAJacob [00:37:00]: Elements of this. I have zero experience in that. What do you have to do? What is surprisingly not that bad?Chai [00:37:06]: So one thing that’s really important here from a compliance perspective is very much that any of the data we use needs to be de-identified, any real-world data we use as a basis of online eval sets we’re learning from. And so you have to — And there’s, very clear, government guidelines, what counts as PHI. And so we’ve even have built models that can take, for example, a clinical transcript and remove all the key PHI indicators and so you have a scrubbed/de-identified version. And then once you... And so one thing that’s important is first you’ve got to get confidence in that model in the first place? And prove that out. Because, now you have, multiple probabilistic systems on top of each other.Chai [00:37:46]: But once you have that, then you can train on it use it for evaluation and so forth, provided one of the cool things also that you can do from a business side is the right data contracting as well with your partners.Jacob [00:37:57]: Is the anonymization one way? Once it’s done, you cannot undo it? Or is there someoneChai [00:38:01]: YesJacob [00:38:02]: Who holds the master key that can... Yeah, okay. So it’s one way.Chai [00:38:05]: It’s one way. Yeah.Jacob [00:38:06]: That’s how it works. I just wanted to... Because, there’s a lot of this, learning from feedback and everything that, you would want to debug more but you can’t because you just physically don’t allow yourself to.Janie [00:38:17]: Some of it’s also written in our customer contracts in terms of who can or can’t access PHI data, how long do we retain it,Jacob [00:38:27]: Very goodJanie [00:38:27]: Before it gets de-identified. And so we have a pretty high bar for who can access that PHI data, just to make sure that we always respect our customer data and privacy. But that’s something that we partner with our customers on too, to make sure that as we want full, as close to precision as possible in that qualityJanie [00:38:48]: We can still use it.Jacob [00:38:50]: But it’ll be fascinating to see how that space evolves? Because you think about, I used to work at a company that, did a lot of healthcare data in the cancer space and if you asked, the average cancer patient, “Hey, do you want people, do you want other patients to be able to learn-”Chai [00:39:03]: Take it.Jacob [00:39:03]: “... Learn from your experience?”Chai [00:39:04]: Take it all.Jacob [00:39:05]: They’re “Please.”Jacob [00:39:06]: “I’d love, nothing more than for other people to be able to learn fromJacob [00:39:10]: The experience that I had.” And so in the past it was a lot harder to do that learning. But with this technology, that might really be practical and so it’ll be fascinating to see how that continues to evolve.Chai [00:39:21]: There’s so much in our data set of 100 million conversations.Chai [00:39:26]: You can imagine things like insights that you can give to the clinician. How could you, oh, how could you have reacted to this? In coaching or insights around, which treatments are effective or, like... Because you have this, again, this data source that was never captured before but that’s, where, intuition or experience is created from, going back to this idea that the conversation is the agent of truth.Operating at Scale: Reliability, Cost, and Token EfficiencyJacob [00:39:46]: Back to the 100 million conversations, I feel like you have this insane scale that maybe only a few other AI app companies have and everyone else dreams of. So not everyone has had to confront this yet but maybe just talk about some of the challenges of operating at that scale and what, our listeners have to look forward to if they ever get to this level of scale.Chai [00:40:05]: At large and larger in scale, so of course there’s a general, infrastructure reliability. When you... In any given startup, you’re building the plane while it’s flying. So there’s some notion of that. But what gets interesting on the AI and ML side for sure is this, as you get at more and more scale, so one, you have the data to first and foremost do this. But, you start thinking about costs or infrastructure in a whole different way at scale versus, a prototype.Chai [00:40:34]: You can use the most expensive model, you can burn as many tokens as you want but when you’re doing 100 million conversationsJacob [00:40:41]: Token max on leaderboards are less upsetting than that context.Chai [00:40:45]: . When you’re doing that and so that comes for we have the data and we also have the team that’s able to post-train based on this and you can optimize for efficiency, especially in areas where you believe that maybe a lot of the quality headroom is less so and you don’t expect the other off-the-shelf models to go that way, such that you want to do, efficiency maximization, in terms of compute and tokens.Jacob [00:41:08]: I feel like you guys live in the future in some way where most use cases today are really just in use case discovery mode, where it’s “God, I really hope I can find something that can get to scale,” and so you’re always going to use the most powerful model. And then the few things that do get to this level of scale, you start to do those optimizations.Chai [00:41:22]: It’s a natural trajectory where it’s like zero-to-one, we’re not talking about any of these optimizations.Chai [00:41:26]: But when maybe we’re in the one-to-100 or so forth, then we’re in optimization mode and, what works out really well is you’ve got all this data from zero-to-one that lets you do this.What Comes Next: The Conversation as the Shared Healthcare PlatformJacob [00:41:36]: That’s fascinating. I feel like one thing that’s so interesting about the Abridge footprint is that you’re in the doctor-patient visit in real-time. I always like to say, there’s like probably 50 years’ worth of product you could build on top of that. What gets each of you, I don’t know, what are you most excited about building, either in the short term or medium term or even, long down the line?Janie [00:41:53]: Something that I get really excited about is that the same conversation can serve so many stakeholders. If you think about the conversation, a doctor needs to know what is the documentation, how do I make sure that this fully represent the care I gave? A patient needs to know, “What the heck just happened? This was really overwhelming. What are my next steps?” A payer needs to know, was this the proper and appropriate care given? A pharma company might want to know why isn’t this drug being properly used or is there a good candidate for this clinical trial that I’m about to run? And where I get excited is that our product and our platform and our infrastructure can be the same product across all of those things and start to what’s today, separate, very expensive, complex systems that serve each one of these stakeholders in very different ways, start to collapse all of that into a singular platform that enables not just more efficiency across the board but also better outcomes for everyone. And, all of us experience healthcare in probably very painful ways and knowing that there is a world in which we can simplify a lot is really exciting to me and it all starts with the conversation.Chai [00:43:15]: It’s interesting. Of it very similar to going back to the KPIs that any AI product cares about. How do you increase quality of care? How do you reduce latency to care? And how do you reduce costs? Which is a huge, in healthcareJacob [00:43:28]: They call it the triple aim in healthcare.Chai [00:43:30]: But very similar to building AI products and the thing that really excites me is when we talk about that latency piece, we talked about one example earlier of prior authorization, can you reduce the latency to care? But you can imagine so much more. Oh, as soon as the lab value gets updated, do you have like a background agent that, kicks off and uses all the context to be “Oh, hey, the patient should do this next,” for example. And of flagging that to the clinician who’s always in the loop but reducing that latency, to care. And then you can imagine this is much further down the road but it’s like even connecting that to the direct patient and the consumer. And so how can you, how can you build a bridge to all of these things?EHR Partnerships and the Clinical Intelligence LayerJacob [00:44:10]: Very cool. The connections piece is just an ever-growing thing. And one of the key partners is the EHR and I wonder what that relationship is like. Will they, look at this as, something that is valuable enough that they want to own someday?Janie [00:44:29]: Our partnerships with the EHR is, we know that we have to be extremely close partners with all the EHRs who we partner with. Being able to not only pull and push all of the data into the right places is, not only table stakes, if we can’t do that, health systems don’t want to use us. The second and the reality of today is clinicians spend a lot of their days in the EHR. So much of what allowed us to win in the largest health systems was pretty direct and, very close partnerships with some of the largest electronic health records that allowed us to pull and push data with APIs that weren’t ready out of the box. And clinicians want to save clicks. Anytime we introduce a new product that, adds two clicks for them in their day, they’re “We’re not going to use it.”Janie [00:45:21]: They have 15-minute back-to-back appointments with their patients. They’re spending, hours during pajama time doing documentation. Every second and every minute counts and so we really think about being deeply integrated into the EHR as also table stakes to getting real usage and adoption. And anything that we build or introduce, we really talk about earn the right internally a lot, which is we have to provide so much value or save so much time that people will use us. But those are the two things that are close to us, is we know that the product won’t be used unless it is deeply interoperable.Chai [00:46:01]: And strategically, to your point, it’s like what does EHR want to own versus us? EHRs are really focused on the clinical workflows and so forth but some of the things that we’re talking about here, I do these traditionally are outside of the domain where it’s oh, connecting pairs and providers together with provider policies or the clinical trial matching, as Janie brought up. And so these are, entirely — we position ourselves as building this entirely new intelligence, clinical intelligence layer across, again, providers, pharma and, payers.Chai [00:46:33]: And so that’s a it’s a whole different ballgame that we try to playChai [00:46:36]: In combination with them.Jacob [00:46:37]: But it’s like a different layer of scope.Healthcare AI Regulation, Technical Depth, and What Changed Their MindsJacob [00:46:39]: I’m curious, you are both relatively newcomers to healthcare. People have these, there’s lots of futuristic healthcare AI takes of “Oh, everything will look different.”, now that you’ve been in healthcare for a bit, you live at the edge of AI, what have you, changed your mind on around this, as you think about what healthcare looks like in ten, 20 years? Any updates to your mental model from the time being close to the problems?Chai [00:47:02]: One thing that IChai [00:47:04]: Was hesitant about before and it’s a common thing when I’m trying to recruit engineers that people ask me around, is definitely oh, healthcare, heavily regulated space. And it is, rightfully so. You want to keep, the patients at the end of the day safe. But one of the interesting things that, is a that surprised me how much it is coming to the company is there’s a lot of really favorable regulatory tailwinds as well. Where you think about, government really wants interoperability between all these systems that we talked about and so agents can access this information. The government just in January, the FDA released updated guidance on clinical decision support, what I work on in such a way that they used to have guidance from like 2022 that required you to have, mention all these options and do all these other things but it’s a very forward and forward-looking way. And so for me, what’s been really cool to work on is this, there’s this very special moment both in AI in general, we all know that but there’s a special moment also regulatory in healthcare as well.Janie [00:48:05]: One thing I would call out is for the very reasons things are higher stakes or, potentially considered more difficult in healthcare, it’s where some of the hardest AI problems will get solved first, just because the bar is so high. When I first joined, I was “Oh, this is where we’ll be on the tail end of where, all of the AI innovation will be able to be applied.” But when you think about, zero error evals or multi-step workflows that have really low tolerance, a lot of the innovation will happen here just because we have to or else we can’t ship.Jacob [00:48:42]: ‘Cause like in other domains, you’d much rather just solve the 80%-is-good-enough problems firstJanie [00:48:46]: 80/20 doesn’t work hereChai [00:48:48]: And building off that, traditionally, there was a bit of stigma that, oh, healthcare companies are not that interesting from a technical perspective or I’ve seen that or faced that myself. But these are really hard and fun problems from a pure technical perspective beyond just the impact. How do you bring the latency of this thing down and make it really high-quality?Reducing Latency: Clinical Workflows, Agents, and Implementation RealityJacob [00:49:07]: How do you bring the latency of things down?Chai [00:49:10]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So okay, let’s answer the latency question. And maybe hopefully not too redundant with some of the things I’ve said earlier but some part of it is with any latency, you have to like what is, what is really your bottleneck. In a lot of workflows, it’s sometimes it’s the model itself. And so that’s where like our data flywheel, our post-training team and so forth come in so that can you make the models far more efficient. So that’s one aspect of latency. But there’s whole other aspects of latency where it’s okay, on top of that, if you use a constellation of different models, can you use — can you first use like a — it’s like thinking fast and slow. Can you use a cheap, fast model that triages and hands it off to a larger model where you get more intelligence and so forth and so all theseChai [00:49:56]: Clever tricks to make it work.Chai [00:49:58]: And by the way, we are totally — we also realize that the parameter frontier is changing and so these tricks will — may not get us to where we want to be in five years but we need to if we want to build a useful product right now.Jacob [00:50:11]: Should we go to the quick-fire or you want to ask more about Abridge? We can stuff everything that’s not Abridge into the quick-fireSwyx [00:50:16]: I don’t mind. I was — I feel like Janie was on the topic of more long tail stuff, which isSwyx [00:50:21]: Not the eighty/twenty thing and that really matters. And I’ll —, if you have any tips or cool stories or just general approaches that have worked for you that’s interesting to dig into.Janie [00:50:32]: One of them is even just how we staff our teams looks different than a traditional software engineering team, I’d say.Swyx [00:50:40]: Let’s go.Clinician Scientists, Edge Cases, and Evals at ScaleJanie [00:50:41]: We have a bunch of folks with different roles who are clinicians and so we have this role called the clinician scientist and I heard one of our leaders refer to them as mutants recently. But they are people who’ve had clinical backgrounds, so MDs typically, who are also deeply technical, somewhere, on the spectrum of like a full stack engineer all the way to like extremely scrappy prompter. But having each of these people embedded within our teams instantly raises the bar for everything that we build because not only are they determining, is this product clinically useful but they’re deeply embedded in our whole evals process. And so when we talk about LFDs, when we talk about what is our actual evaluation criteria, you don’t want Chai or me creating what those are because we don’t have clinical background. But is probably unique to Abridge but has been game changing. And when you think about where the puck is going, you have people build with clinical backgrounds who are technical and where AI tools are going, they just becomeJanie [00:51:53]: More and more, critical and like the killers of the team. And so that’s one. And then the second is just the scale at which we do evals to catch that long tail up front before anything ever gets into production is something that we’ve pretty much like really started to fine-tune, both from a scale but when do we know we need to get several hundred versus several thousand offline responses, what helps us make that quick decision and make this less of an art and as much of a science as possible. But that’s also been something we’ve had to tune over time.Swyx [00:52:27]: And you have partners who opted in to give you those evals.Janie [00:52:31]: So we work either internally or with third-party for offline evals and then we have customers who also agree to give us, whether it’s like thumbs up, thumbs down to like choose this or that, a lot of data to get us to what is as close to fully confident as possible.Swyx [00:52:51]: The term that comes to mind isSwyx [00:52:53]: Like active learning on things where you’re weak. I feel like it’s a lost artSwyx [00:52:58]: Is a lot of the polish that comes into doing something like this.Janie [00:53:02]: Really.Chai [00:53:03]: Hundred percent.Lessons from Glean: Technical Foundations and AI App InfrastructureJacob [00:53:04]: Maybe, on a totally unrelated note, Chai, you had a very, storied run at Glean before heading over to Abridge. And so, I’m curious like that — it’s was one of the early AI app success stories. As reflecting back on that experience, what do you think Glean got most, maybe most wrong? Yeah, curious for your reflections.Chai [00:53:24]: The... I attribute Glean’s success really to very strong technical foundations, that have really stood the test of time. And so it started with — it started with a known problem and like finding information where work is hard. The best technology at the time was to build really high-quality search. A lot of times enterprise search startups failed because the quality wasn’t great enough. But the learning that people took away from that is, oh, enterprise search is not good enough. And so like quality, really changes the game of like if something can be useful or not. It’s like similarly like people may have taken it that way, “Oh, Alexa voice assistants are not that useful.” But when you have quality, things can change the game. And so Glean’s early foundations, by bringing people who had built search at Google, the best place to have ever built search and being really creative and having a very concrete problem to solve but with the right technical backgrounds, laid the foundation for all of its success for the many years to come. And what’s interesting is always figuring out, hey, how does a company adapt in this, as we all know and we’ve talked many times, in this changing landscape. And so for Glean, how do you put this context layer to the use, has been the thing that we’ve really, the last few years, has been the fun from the challenge. That where like you could say, that’s been the opportunity for the company as well as the challenge as well.Jacob [00:54:46]: Definitely a competitive market. It feels like one at the epicenter of the foundation models and, the hyperscalers, so it’ll be interesting to see how it all plays out.Chai [00:54:55]: When you think about can you build something that helps everyone at knowledge work as well is a massive opportunity.Jacob [00:55:02]: Always my mental model is like there’s a few markets that are like the foundation model companies have to win or are like big enough to go after and It’s probably like consumer code and that.Jacob [00:55:11]: And so it would definitely be interesting to see how it plays out. One thing we often think about on the investing side is, the pace of progress in models changes so fast and so the building patterns adjust so fast. And it’s always hard to figure out, what pieces of the way people are building today, the infrastructure tools they use, are going to prove persistent versus, okay, six months later we’re doing something completely different becauseJacob [00:55:31]: Models have improved. I’m curious of the stuff you use today, how do you think about the pieces of AI infrastructure software that feel a little bit more persistent?Chai [00:55:40]: So generally, if you take the thesis that the models are going to be more and more agentic, before we had to build a lot of scaffolding around that. In previous gigs, I’ve — we’ve effectively, we made our own DSL effectively and you can view the because the models were not capable enough, so you needed to simplify things. And you can view it similar to other agent frameworks. But over time, if the models become more and more agentic and can use the similar tools that we already have, where it’s like computer use, writing code itself in sandbox, much more around, far more about, what are the right context layers and the tools to give agents. And then the other things that I think about are how do you really build truly event-driven real-time systems and especially at Abridge, again, where you’re doing something real-time in the conversation. And so there’s a lot of event-driven technology. And by the way, stuff that we’ve always used in the past, whether it’s Kafka, Temporal, Sockets and so forth, how do you bring that together is also durable. Or thinking about patterns in which humans collaborated with each other on Google Docs. How do you think about like CRDT and so forth when you have conflicts, when you have multi-agent systems? So all these things that we’ve built for — the things we’ve built for humans are the things that are going to be, continue to be durable.Jacob [00:56:55]: . Just with like 1,000 times more the scale of agents running at them instead.Jacob [00:56:58]: They’re going to really work.Chai [00:56:58]: So make sure that they scale, of course and fast and whatnot. Without a doubt, yes.How Agentic Does Abridge Become?Swyx [00:57:03]: Does Abridge become more agentic over time than, what is the next more agentic version of that look like?Swyx [00:57:10]: ‘Cause you’re already pretty proactive it’s, with like the notifications.Chai [00:57:15]: And so I view that as like a piece of being agentic but I also view it as maybe some of the things we mentioned before, oh, reacting to labs or, doing work in the background or doingChai [00:57:25]: Even more capabilities on behalf of the clinician, who we believe has a super important role to play as, in terms of patient connection and so forth.What They Changed Their Minds On: PRDs, Prototypes, and JudgmentJacob [00:57:34]: I’m curious for both of you, what’s one thing you’ve changed your mind on in AI in the past year?Janie [00:57:39]: The one I flopped on and this is much more product specific, is, probably the hotter take is that prototypes are the end all be all and that PRDs are dead.Janie [00:57:51]: We’ve tried switching and... We continue to evolve the way product is developed and, the products that we’re building are extremely complicated and nuanced and it is very difficult for a prototype to capture the full complexity of what can we or can’t we do with this data. What and who... Is this the actual right problem to be solving for in a world where software has become so cheap? Yes, this is a cool looking prototype but should we be spending any of our precious hours here? If so, why? And how does this deepen our moat in a world of decreasing moats? Does this require custom implementation from our customer to use? None of that gets captured in a prototype and so we’ve, we’re continuously evolving the way that we develop product here but even if not written in the same traditional ways as it was two years ago, as a team we’ve gotten pretty, high conviction that in a world of so much noise, crisp written clarity is more important than ever. It might now live in a markdown file that more teams and systems can use as context but that’s probably one that is much moreSwyx [00:59:06]: So you’reJanie [00:59:06]: Function specific to me.Jacob [00:59:08]: I love that.Swyx [00:59:09]: You’re disagreeing with the consensusJanie [00:59:10]: That PRDs are deadSwyx [00:59:11]: That’s great, yeah.Swyx [00:59:12]: So you are likeJanie [00:59:14]: That prototypes are the thing.Janie [00:59:14]: We should partner with AI to create great documentation but first, probably most important, is strategically answering like why is this problem the one our company and our product should solve? What happens if the next 20 competitors build this? Why, what is our right to win and does this help us differentiate in any way or are we just adding noise? It’s importantSwyx [00:59:39]: That’s a high bar. I don’t know if I could answer thatSwyx [00:59:41]: Because a lot of the times the answer is let’s do it first.Janie [00:59:44]: And when the cost of doing it first is so expensive, we just talked through the process of getting something out to customers. You need to have a higher bar for as a business, should we invest here? And as all of our roles evolve, one of product or like all of our jobs become should we do this thing? And that’s something that is worth the time spending up front on. And then, as you think about prototypes, it’s still really valuable to quickly show, “Here are the 20 ways we could do it. Clinician, I would love your feedback, which one resonates more?” Or as you get into deeper fidelity, you can also make the prototypes deeper fidelity and like get it as close to production ready as possible. But, beyond that, to get it out to customers, there’s a lot of implementation details, security compliance, edge cases, things that never get caught in a prototype that need to be written out somewhere. And so they look different but still more important than ever.Jacob [01:00:52]: It’s interesting. I imagine a lot of that also is like given the context of the stage that Abridge is at.Jacob [01:00:58]: I feel like for so many early stage companies, it’s just a desperate race to... You throw like 30 things at the wall, you’re “Please, something just like resonate with my end buyer.” and, you find something and that’s, why the prototype first approach is so powerful. But for you all, it’s like anything you’re going to do is across 200 systems, there’s like a whole, implementation change management side of things and you get a few big bullets to fire at at what you want those systems to do. And so being really thoughtful about that.Chai [01:01:25]: It makes a ton of sense and maybe the prototype first takes will all grow into your view of the world when they’re a bit more scaled.Janie [01:01:32]: The weekend demo versus it works at the largest health systems is, a massive gap. I don’t think it means we can’t go fast. This is the fastest I’ve built in my career, right now and theChai [01:01:47]: Compared to Loom?Janie [01:01:48]: From a the complexity and the scale of the products we’re trying to build and the problems we’re trying to solve, I’d say, yes, maybe I, updated a flow or, shipped a new feature pretty quickly but if you think about some of the products we’re building, we’re trying to collapse prior authorization, things that used to take 45 days across maybe 20 different touch points into one. I’m building faster than I ever have and so the thoughtfulness allows us just to go fast at the right things. It sounds contradictory but thatChai [01:02:28]: NoJanie [01:02:28]: Thought up frontChai [01:02:28]: Go slow to go fast.Janie [01:02:29]: Exactly.Chai [01:02:30]: It’s interesting. In the... When a lot of things are changing and in the AI discourse, sometimes we lose sight of things that always stood the test of time. Judgment and clarity always matters. As an engineer, sometimes I don’t want a prototype. I would like to see... I want the written, the clarity that comes from writing and then we build that. And again, for some things, of course, where it’s a small thing, yeah, just ship the prototype. That’s why, don’t sweat the details. So the interesting thing, the nuance that gets lost sometimes in discussion is, sometimes we need to recalibrate our judgment for sure because the costs and gains have changed but that doesn’t mean we go all the way on one spectrum or the other.AI Tools, Claude Code, and Closing NotesChai [01:03:11]: Outside of your specific tool, I always like to ask this question, any other AI tools that you guys are enjoying?Chai [01:03:16]: Claude Code. But, that feels, too basic of an answer.Chai [01:03:20]: Is all of Abridge engineering very built on Claude Code?Chai [01:03:23]: Yes.Chai [01:03:23]: Wow.Chai [01:03:23]: Very much so. I won’tChai [01:03:26]: We also have Cursor as well.Chai [01:03:28]: Many of theChai [01:03:29]: I’m just checking the boxes here.Chai [01:03:30]: Many of the tools available but it’s like you look at just earlier in the day, you see an engineer’s screen. You see, six different, Claudes running at it. Sometimes the same person, I’ve seen them on the sofa now with the remote control as well on the mobile. But, very much so. One of the interesting things for me is, as a relatively new person to companies, Claude Code helps me onboard much faster or any of these AI code... And, I feel like I learn so much. I do love the memes of “Claude’s going to do this.” So, I’d like to see Claude,Chai [01:04:00]: The venture equivalent is “I’d like to see Claude go do a company at a billion dollars pre-revenue.” LikeWhere to Learn More: Whitepapers, Research, and AbridgeHQChai [01:04:06]: We always like to leave the last word in these conversations to you both. And so, any place you want to point folks where they can go learn more about Abridge, the work you’re doing, any of the research you guys have done, whatever. The floor is yours.Chai [01:04:18]: A couple places. If you... On our Abridge website, we have a lot of our whitepapers where we’ve done a lot of interesting work, such as, reducing a hallucination objection.Chai [01:04:27]: Very well-presented, by the way. I liked it. Yeah.Chai [01:04:29]: Thank you. Our science team rigorously defined what is the problem. And one of the interesting things, by the way, at Abridge, is we have multiple, stats professors on staff as well. So in that specific whitepaper, Michael Oberst, who’s a professor at JHU. And so we have multiple... And from that comes, very high rigor and then also our taste for design comes from really good presentation. But setting that aside and we’re going to have many more technical topics there, please follow our Twitter account as well, AbridgeHQ. And then the other thing I’ll plug a little is, we have a open house of diving deep into AI and healthcare coming up with Andreessen Horowitz.Chai [01:05:07]: Amazing. Well, thanks so much.Janie [01:05:09]: Thanks.Chai [01:05:09]: This was super fun.Chai [01:05:10]: Thanks so much.Chai [01:05:10]: Thank you. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.latent.space/subscribe

Mar 23 update for Latent Spacenauts: this episode was recorded before the Dreamer team announced they were joining Meta Superintelligence Labs, and it turned out to be the last interview they did before the news became public. Consider this a snapshot from just before the transition!In 2024, David Singleton left Stripe and joined forces with Hugo Barra for a buzzy stealth startup named /dev/agents. This month they emerged out as Dreamer, a consumer-first platform to discover, build, and use AI agents and agentic apps, centered on a personal “Sidekick” that helps users customize experiences via natural language. Sidekick is nothing less than an “agent that builds agents”, with all the complexity that that entails:You’ve seen many many website builder, app builder, and even agent builder startups by now, but our favorite detail is the sheer amount of work that has gone into the “full stack” nature of the platform, including shipping their own SDK, logging, database, prompt management, serverless functions, and so on. Most platforms restrict the tech stack you can use just to get off the ground — Dreamer does it “right” by letting you push whatever arbitrary code you want to their VMs.Paying the BuildersOf course former leaders of Stripe and Android would not stop at just building the tools, but also building the ecosystem. Dreamer is deeply aware of the 4 sided network effect it has going on and is ready to fund all of it.It’s time to Dream!Full Video Episodeon youtube.Transcript[00:00:00] Meet Dreamer Purple[00:00:00] swyx: Okay, we’re here in the studio with David Singleton. Welcome.[00:00:08] David Singleton: Hey, Wix. It’s great to be here.[00:00:09] swyx: It’s great to have you. Uh, we have very sympa that your company color is the same as Lean Spaces color.[00:00:15] David Singleton: That’s right. Dreamer Purple.[00:00:17] swyx: It used to be Devrel agents, which I thought was very cool. It’s like you call back to Devrel Payments.[00:00:22] David Singleton: Yeah.[00:00:22] swyx: And you were obviously CTO Stripe. And talk to me about just the origin or thinking process behind Dreamer. Yeah. And maybe, maybe start with like, what, what is Dreamer?[00:00:31] David Singleton: Yeah.[00:00:31] What Is Dreamer[00:00:31] David Singleton: So Dreamer is a new product, uh, which everyone can come and play with today. Um, it’s a place where everyone, literally, everyone can discover, build, and enjoy and use AI agents and agenda apps.[00:00:45] And we really did design it for consumers, for folks who are not necessarily. Uh, have any kind of technical background. It’s really aimed at everyone. I think often of my sister, she’s very smart. She’s not in the slightest bit technical. She has lots of problems in her life that [00:01:00] she would like to be able to have great software and intelligent software to solve.[00:01:04] But you know, even with the rise of tools like Cloud Code and so forth, she’s got no way to get started. And Dreamer is a place where she can come in, grab some intelligent apps that other people in the community have built, start using them right away, and solve real problems in her life.[00:01:19] Sidekick And Waitlist[00:01:19] David Singleton: And at the core, we have a personal agent called the Sidekick.[00:01:24] Um, you can give your sidekick a name, you can give it its own personality, and it really helps you across your entire day, your life. It helps you use all of the agents on the platform, and it also helps you build anything you want. And we’ve been working in this for a little while. We recently launched in beta.[00:01:41] So anyone can go to dreamer.com, join the wait list. Um, and we have many, many, many people in the community now who are building really fun, really powerful, really useful. Agents and the agentic apps for themselves.[00:01:54] swyx: I think we’re gonna go right into a demo. Yeah. I just wanna make an observation that, uh, you, you, [00:02:00] you put discover first before build.[00:02:02] Mm-hmm. But actually, at least for the engineers in the audience. ‘cause we are primarily engineers and you’re primarily targeting consumers, right?[00:02:08] David Singleton: Yeah.[00:02:08] swyx: For engineers. Like, there’s a huge full stack of stuff, which we’re gonna dive into. Let’s write. It’s so impressive. I’m like, holy s**t, this, this is what I’ve always wanted.[00:02:16] Cool. Uh, so, so I think that’s really good and I’ve, in some ways, I think given your background given, uh, Hugo’s, is it Hugo? Hugo.[00:02:24] David Singleton: Hugo. Hugo Bar. Yeah.[00:02:25] swyx: Hugo, it’s not surprising that you can basically kind of build an app store Yeah. For agents.[00:02:30] David Singleton: Yeah. So Hugo was my co-founder. Yeah. Um, Hugo and I met with our other co-founder Nicholas Checkoff in the very early days of Android at Google, where we were building Google’s first mobile apps.[00:02:41] Uh, we then contributed to very core pieces of Android itself. And you’re right, we were really excited about building two things. One, solving a bunch of problems. That this breakthrough technology here I’m talking about mobile needed to have solved in order to make it work for real people at scale. And then secondly, building this ecosystem, um, [00:03:00] of third party developers using the Play Store, um, and able to deliver way more value on the platform than we could have delivered on our own.[00:03:08] And we think about Dreamer in exactly the same way. So I was working at Stripe, as you mentioned, and we had the opportunity to put some of the very first AI agent systems in the world into production. And from the moment we did the first of those, I was just struck with a strong sense of conviction that this is breakthrough technology that’s gonna change how all of us work with computers and phones and so forth, all of the, the technology in our lives, but.[00:03:34] There’s a lot of problems to be solved, for real people to be able to make this approachable. Um, and it really is kind of a direct analog for what we were solving back in the early days of mobile apps at Google and, and Android. So it’s, it’s been fun to bring that to life.[00:03:47] swyx: Yeah. Uh, let’s look at it.[00:03:48] David Singleton: Yeah, let’s take a look.[00:03:49] Dashboard And Daily Briefing[00:03:49] David Singleton: So, uh, dreamer.com, this is our homepage. This is where you can come and, uh, watch some videos about what is here and sign up for the wait list. Once[00:03:57] swyx: you, I, I just wanna say for those listening, ‘cause we have a lot, you [00:04:00] know, switch to YouTube, look at the animations. So much care.[00:04:03] David Singleton: We, we really care about, uh, this product being fun.[00:04:07] Uh, and, and interesting to use. Obviously a lot of people are using it to do real important stuff. You can do real work, uh, here, uh, but also you can build fun things too. Once you get off of our wait list, you’ll come into the product. The first thing that happens is you’ll have a conversation with your side cake, which is this little friendly, uh, character here.[00:04:27] And psychic will seek to get to know you and understand you. What do you care about? And will help you discover and build your first AI agents or agentic apps. After that, you’re, you’re gonna have a dashboard. This is my dashboard. Everyone’s is different. Um, you can see I have a few things here. I have a feed.[00:04:42] So a lot of our agents do things in the background when you’re not looking and the feed is how they let you know what they’ve been up to. I have, uh, some widgets, uh, from apps that I have built. Uh, this one is called Calendar Hero. Uh, this is something that I installed from the gallery. Uh, so built by someone in our community.[00:04:59] It’s a [00:05:00] really powerful calendar app because for each of my meetings, if it’s with someone I don’t already know, well it’ll actually go off and research it, um, and give me both a history of my interactions with those people and also a bunch of, you know, public useful information to, to get started. One of the things I love about this particular app is that every day it generates a podcast, um, a daily briefing.[00:05:24] And one of the things that we’ve done with the platform is we’ve made it possible for all the things that agents do to show up in places that you care about. So if you look over here, this is the screen in my phone, and if I go ahead and open my Apple Podcasts, you can see right here. Your Daily briefing podcast is ready.[00:05:39] This was produced by an agent running in my Dreamer account, and it was very easy by scanning a QR code to connect it to my Apple podcast. That’s what I listened to in the car now every morning. Yeah. On my way to work.[00:05:50] swyx: It, it[00:05:50] David Singleton: preps me for, for my day.[00:05:52] swyx: So one additional bit of context. I asked you immediately after seeing this was like, what, what about, I wanna talk back to my agent and you said you actually started with voice and then you went to [00:06:00] podcasts.[00:06:00] ‘cause it’s nice to have it pre downloaded[00:06:02] David Singleton: that, right? That’s right. Um, yeah, we, you, you can talk to your sidekick. So, you know, on mobile we have, uh, a dreamer app and you can talk to the sidekick right here. Um, but we’ve actually found that making things, uh, show up in the other apps that you already use in your life is incredibly powerful.[00:06:19] So let’s take a look at what’s kind of under the hood here.[00:06:21] Gallery Tools And Payouts[00:06:21] David Singleton: So I already mentioned that we have a gallery, so this is where you’ll find a lot of agents from our community. Uh, there’s. Many at this point, hundreds. And they are solving all kinds of, uh, use cases. I’d say the the top use cases are on personal productivity, but also a lot of information management that can range from personal information like docs and so forth, managing your emails.[00:06:42] It also ranges out to public information that you might be interested in, but you need something to help manage the, the kind of fire hose of stuff that’s coming at you. For instance, I have, um, an agent which looks at all the AI news, um, all the time. There’s a lot of it and it finds the stuff that I would actually be [00:07:00] interested in, um, and I find it incredibly useful.[00:07:03] So these are agents that you can install that other people have built. Anything that you install on Dreamer, you can actually just say, I wanna start making some changes, and we’ll look at that in a second. But in natural language, with the sidekicks help, you can change any of these experiences to work just the way you want them.[00:07:18] But the base layer of the system are tools. So you know, as well as anyone swyx, that any AI system is only as good as the quality of data that it can pull in and the quality of action it can take. So before we launched our beta, we worked very hard to make sure that we seeded our tools with a bunch of very high quality and powerful integrations.[00:07:39] So, you know, for instance, this is real Google search, this is actual Gmail. Um, and you can do very useful things with those. But also this is a platform for everyone. And as we got started talking to people in our alpha community, a whole bunch of sports use cases popped out and we realized if you want to build something cool for sports with ai, you need really high quality live data.[00:07:58] So look at these [00:08:00] Formula one M-L-B-N-F-L, uh, these are tools, uh, that we’ve built. We’ve done a, these are not data scraped off the web. This is a, a direct data feed integration. And because it’s live and ‘cause it’s high quality, you can build really powerful stuff. But tools is not something that we are just going to kind of control ourselves.[00:08:19] The platform is open for tool Builders to contribute tools that anyone on Dreamer can use. So, um, this is actually the place in the platform where I think software engineers, um, well number one, would love for you to come and play with it. Uh, but software engineers are really gonna build, um, a lot of powerful stuff into the system.[00:08:38] And we are actually sharing something for the first time on this podcast, which there is, uh, tool builders on Dreamer get paid. So if you publish a tool to the platform and a lot of agents use it, you’ll actually get paid, uh, in proportion to their usage. And we’d love for folks to come and give this a try.[00:08:54] We’ve got good docs that help you get started and you can build things that, you know, scratch your own itch. For instance, someone built this [00:09:00] Ski Bum tool, which provides live snow conditions for a bunch of, uh, ski resorts. I’d love to show you how I’ve used that in a second. And also we have some tools, partners where the tools themselves are paper use.[00:09:12] So for instance, parallel web systems is a premium tool. Uh, you can do really cool stuff with it. Um, it’s a a, an agentic web research tool. And that one, because it’s expensive to operate, is paid on a, on a per usage basis. But if you’re coming in to build agents on the platform, even the premium tools, you get a free trial.[00:09:29] So you get a chance to actually try them out, make sure that the use case is good for you before you decide to, to to sign up. So that’s tools. So we have the gallery, we have tools, and then the sidekick helps us put all of this together to build agents. We do that in the agents studio. You can also do this on your phone, but if I open up Agent Studio here on Desktop psychic’s, just gonna start a conversation about what you want to build together.[00:09:51] I’d love to show you one that I made recently.[00:09:53] swyx: Let’s do[00:09:53] David Singleton: it.[00:09:53] Building A Conference App[00:09:53] David Singleton: Um, let’s look at something that hopefully is kind of near and dear to your heart. So one of the things I love about Dreamer and this kind of moment in technology is that if you think about it. There are all these things in your life where, have you ever gone to a conference?[00:10:09] I know you have. Right? And, uh, big conferences have apps. Um, and these apps are usually built by agencies and they’re, they’re usually actually quite expensive to build. I’ve been involved in running some of these myself. And how many conferences have you been to where the app was good? Zero. Honestly.[00:10:23] swyx: Exactly. Zero,[00:10:24] David Singleton: maybe one. I, I’ve, I’ve been to one conference. That was pretty good. Wait, wait session sessions. Um, but, but the point is, they’re rarely great pieces of software. Right. And they’re also expensive to build, but they’re, they’re interesting ‘cause they’re episodic, they last for this one thing. Um, and then they’re, they’re not relevant anymore.[00:10:43] Um,[00:10:43] swyx: and so it’s the worst feeling to invest in them because, you know, it’s like, it’s got a limited. Date?[00:10:48] David Singleton: Absolutely. So I decided to build, uh, a conference app for your AI engineer conference. Amazing. Uh, on Dreamer. One of the things that Swix has done, uh, which I [00:11:00] thought was very forward-looking, is actually put a whole bunch of data about the conference on the webpage in an LLM readable way.[00:11:06] There’s an LLMs txt file, there’s a feed of all of the sessions in js, ON. So I used the data from your conference last year and built this intelligent app, uh, just by talking to our sidekick, uh, in Dreamer. So just to give you a quick tour, this is my Dream Conference app. What I always wanna do for conferences is I wanna be able to search for speakers.[00:11:28] I’m usually there because, uh, there, uh, is a speaker I care about. So, you know, SWIX, you’re the speaker I care about. I can actually see here who you’re on stage with. So here’s, here’s Greg Brockman. You’ve read even ai, uh, and this is his session. And look Greg and Swix for the speaker. So let’s add that to my schedule.[00:11:45] Great. And then maybe there’s a couple others I might see here. Like on day two, I remember there were some keynotes. So, uh, building the open agenda web, that sounds fun. So I add that to my schedule.[00:11:55] swyx: She’s now CEO of Xbox.[00:11:56] David Singleton: Awesome.[00:11:57] swyx: Which is interesting. So cool. So,[00:11:59] David Singleton: so I’ve [00:12:00] gone through and picked out a couple of sessions that I cared about.[00:12:03] That’s as far as I usually get with any conference app. But of course you’ve got the whole of the rest of the conference to figure out what to do. So here is where the native intelligence of, of these things you build on Dreamer can come in. So I’m gonna click guide me. So Dreamers sidekick actually parsed out the whole schedule and figured out what some of the themes are and I can choose what I’m interested in here.[00:12:23] I’m definitely interested in agents. Uh, I’m definitely interested in code generation and also reasoning in rl. So now I’m gonna say build my schedule. So what this is doing is. It’s going across every time slot for the conference. And it’s choosing among the things I could go to, which one it thinks is best for me based on my interests.[00:12:41] It also uses its own memory of me that’s part of Dreamer, uh, to understand what I might like best. And you know, there’s an LLM prompt running for each one of these time slots. So this is, it’s not super fast, but it’ll be done in about 30 or 40 seconds. And I’m gonna have a special custom schedule for the conference.[00:12:57] This, like I said, is my [00:13:00] dream conference app is exactly what I’ve always wanted and I was able to build this yesterday morning. Um, I did it between some meetings. I think I spent a total of 25 minutes of wall clock time on it. I did it over the course of a couple of hours. And, uh, here is my schedule for the conference.[00:13:15] I can see it in a calendar view. This is what I should do on Tuesday, this is what I should do on Wednesday. Oof, no conflicts, but, you know, I may not go to every single thing. And there you have it built in, you know, dreamer. So let’s take a look at what the building experience actually looks like. So this is the, the actual account that I made it on.[00:13:32] Oh, of course I should say anything you build on Dreamer also works on your phone. So, uh, here is my AI engineer conference app right here on my phone. Got all the same functionality, and of course this is the best place to jump into my schedule.[00:13:46] swyx: Yeah.[00:13:46] David Singleton: Um,[00:13:46] swyx: so you could generate a podcast about it just completely multimodal, absolute thing, right?[00:13:51] To me, I mean, this is why I outsource, I mean, well, I, I posted the L-M-T-X-T, the JSON because you cannot run an engineer conference in 2025 [00:14:00] and not let engineers. Do whatever they want.[00:14:02] David Singleton: Yeah.[00:14:03] swyx: And since all conference apps suck, I’m just gonna put up a ba minimum viable app and just let people do whatever they want.[00:14:09] David Singleton: Totally. And the cool thing about this on Bremer is I published this to the gallery and you can use it so you’ve got one that’s built to my taste of conference apps. I think it’s pretty cool. But you might want something different. Yeah. In which case you just start telling the sidekick how to change it.[00:14:23] So let’s just very quickly look[00:14:24] swyx: at our, what sports grid is also, you can fork it, right? That I can publish. That’s right. I can publish your one and go, this is the base starter. It’s, it’s got good defaults, but go customize, whatever.[00:14:32] David Singleton: That’s right. That’s right.[00:14:33] swyx: Yeah.[00:14:33] Agent Studio Under The Hood[00:14:33] David Singleton: So let’s take a look at how I actually built this.[00:14:34] This is real. So I’m gonna say make changes. This experience we’re looking at now is our, uh, agent development studio. Um, like I said, you can do this on your phone as well. And in fact, this one I started out on desktop. Let’s look at my actual prompts. I said, let’s make an agent called AI Engineer Schedule Planner should be a custom schedule planner for the AI engineer conference.[00:14:53] I’m not gonna read this all up. You get, you get the point and it told it where to get the data from. So that was the first prompt. And actually after I gave it that [00:15:00] prompt, I actually had a simple version of this app working, um, after the sidekick took one turn. So the Sidekick is a, like a professional software engineer, and we’ve worked very hard to make this work and build functional apps for folks that might not have any engineering experience whatsoever.[00:15:14] So, you know, done here we have build logs that are technical, but you can hide those away. And sidekick, as it is building, will actually translate everything that is coming out of, uh, of the, the harness into English that you can actually read. And by the way, this English is in the personality of your sidekick, which is fun.[00:15:32] Um. And the way that we build agents and agent apps, it’s a little different to what you might have seen in some other platforms for a couple of reasons. One, just the build process. The very first thing that Sidekick does, it understands all the agents you’ve got set up. It understands all the tools and it will come up with a plan for how to realize your goal, how to make sure it actually has the data and the capabilities to complete it.[00:15:54] It will occasionally refuse. If it can’t do what you’re asking, it will tell you I can’t do that. It needs another tool. And that’s a good [00:16:00] jumping off point for any of the tool builders out there to build a new tool. So it’ll fi first figure out how, then it will build it, and then it will actually test it.[00:16:07] So it will actually make sure that the thing that it has generated is realizing your goal. And you probably know as well as anybody that anytime you can get any. Modern state-of-the-art coding model into a loop where it can make changes and perceive its own output and then fix bugs. Magic happens. So these builds, the first build will often take 10 to 15 minutes on Dreamer, which is a little bit longer than you might’ve seen on some other platforms.[00:16:31] But the first thing that it creates will work most of the time. And then of course, as you start making smaller changes, you can like ask it to tweak the UI in any way that you like. Those are much faster. And just to give you a sense, uh, for this one, here’s something I asked. Put a logo, I gave it a logo file in static files.[00:16:48] Use that as the title. So for folks that actually really want to dig, uh, into a bit more detail, we’ve provided a powerful IDE here. So I can actually see here’s the code that was generated and some pieces of the [00:17:00] code are more accessible than others, like the prompts. So this is the prompt that’s used by a powerful LLM in order to do that schedule picking.[00:17:08] And I can actually read it here directly. I can edit it without having to ask the sidekick if I want to do that.[00:17:12] swyx: So this is very nice.[00:17:13] David Singleton: This is for the more, the more, uh, sophisticated users.[00:17:16] swyx: Yeah. This is other people’s entire startup is prop management.[00:17:21] David Singleton: This is true. The other thing that is different about Dreamer is once you’ve built something here, it’s ready to go.[00:17:28] We host it. So you don’t have to worry about getting a database from a database provider signing up, getting API keys. You don’t have to worry about your LLM provider tokens. All of that is hosted on the platform. And you can use it yourself. You can share it to the gallery for other people to, to riff on it.[00:17:46] You can also share it with your friends and coworkers to use your instance of the agent or agentic app. And we’re seeing that happen a lot in our community. We’ve seen a whole bunch of folks who built little applications for their personal life [00:18:00] and shared them with their significant other. We’ve seen people who are building little productivity apps for their team at work and sharing it, uh, among them.[00:18:07] And we actually do this a lot inside of the company. So at this point we, we pretty much run the company on Dreamer agents for all kinds of important things. Uh, maybe a good example of that is, um, our wait list. People are signing up every time someone signs up for our wait list. A dreamer agent will actually research, uh, that person.[00:18:25] And we’re looking for folks who are builders, not super technical to build agents and come in, uh, and give us a lot of feedback and we’re prioritized bringing those people off of the wait list First,[00:18:35] swyx: just a quick question on that one is there’s, it may not come up again. Do you find enrichment APIs to be useful like the ZoomInfo?[00:18:42] Uh, clear bit[00:18:43] David Singleton: enrichment is a very, uh, common use case. Um, on dreamer. Any application on Dreamer can kick off a sub-agent to do a particular task. Um, so this actually is a powerful agentic harness that runs inside of its own [00:19:00] vm. Uh, we call them sidekick tasks ‘cause they actually run in the context of the sidekick.[00:19:04] I’ll talk more about Sidekick in a second and. Enrichment is a very common use case. And the cool thing about a sidekick task is that it has access to all the tools on the platform, but also public data as well. And so very frequently enrichment on our platform happens using public data that it can be found in the web.[00:19:24] There are some tools for getting people data, uh, from, uh, from various bespoke systems. And so that works pretty well. But actually, you’d be surprised. I mean, we would love if someone out there would like to build a ZoomInfo tool, we don’t have one today. We’d love to see that on the platform, and I’m sure it’ll be very powerful.[00:19:39] But we’re also seeing that this powerful agent harness can pull a lot of data in on that note of tools that make experiences better, we’re constantly adding more tools because people in the community are building them and publishing them. We review the tools carefully and then they go live for everybody.[00:19:54] Yesterday we added granola. And that was pretty cool. So I was talking to actually, uh, Sarah on my team was [00:20:00] talking to, uh, someone building on the platform this morning and they actually, they have an agentic app that they built, which is a kind of magic to-do list. So they put stuff on their to-do list and for each thing it kicks off one of these, uh, sidekick tasks to figure out how to move the ball forward thing.[00:20:14] Sometimes it’ll complete it[00:20:15] swyx: entirely. Yeah.[00:20:16] David Singleton: Often by calling another agent on the platform and sometimes it just kind of researches it and helps ‘em take the first step.[00:20:21] swyx: Yeah. Do you know, this is Sam Altman’s number one, ask for an AI app. It’s the self-completing to-do list.[00:20:26] David Singleton: Yeah. The self-completing to-do list is something that a lot of people have built on Dreamer and are getting a lot of use out of.[00:20:32] Yeah. And, and finding it actually genuinely I shouldn’t, I should, I should try that. Mm-hmm. Please do. And you’ll even find some in the gallery that you can remix. So he was saying this morning that he’s, he built this self completing to-do list, uh, on Dreamer already. But he connected the granola tool yesterday and now something really magical happens, which is when he says in meetings that he’s gonna do a thing, it magically shows up on his to-do list and then it can magically get completed.[00:20:56] And then, as I mentioned, all the agents, all the [00:21:00] apps on Dreamer can actually work together. So our coding agent, as it builds them, does something very special where it exposes the internals of each of the experiences to the system. And then Sidekick can manipulate those to get stuff done. So he has built another agent, which he uses for recruiting.[00:21:18] It kind of keeps track of candidates and also it’s got a kinda mini CRM function, so he’s able to introduce candidates to each other. He told us this morning that something he’d committed to do in a meeting that was recorded on granola yesterday showed up in his magic to-do list and his magic to-do list.[00:21:34] It was like introduce a person for recruiting, used his recruiting agent to get it done.[00:21:39] swyx: Ah,[00:21:39] David Singleton: um, and this is, this is the dream. This is why we started the company. It really is the case that you can build and use these very powerful, bespoke experiences that can automate your life by working together. And I’d love to talk a little bit about how they work together.[00:21:55] Ecosystem Trust And Monetization[00:21:55] David Singleton: So obviously it’s really cool to have [00:22:00] software that will work on your behalf, but it’s only useful if you can trust it, right? So privacy and security is very important to us making these things accessible and. While also being trustworthy is hard. So the model that we have, which is working very well, is that the sidekick is at the core of everything here.[00:22:22] So it is both your companion, your helper, but it’s also the traffic cup in the system. So when, when one agent wants to work with another agent and dreamer, it doesn’t do it directly, it does it via the sidekick, well ask the sidekick to do the thing. And the sidekick understands both everything, all the expectations that have been set with me as a user about what agents can do, which tools I’ve given them permission to use.[00:22:45] And it will make sure that whatever is is going on is actually aligned with my own interests. And you know, that’s part of the background that I bring to this problem domain. I’ve. Worked for years, uh, keeping very important information, safe and secure. And [00:23:00] so as we started to think about this problem, we realized that we actually had to build something that’s a bit like an operating system.[00:23:06] You know, the sidekicks, like the kernel, the agents and apps are like users. Yeah. Different rings. Exactly. Because if you try to pick off just one piece of this, you can’t actually make it work for people at scale. Uh, because you could build little vibe coded apps, but they’re gonna grab all your data willy-nilly.[00:23:23] They won’t be able to work together. You actually have to invest in the fundamental core in order to make it work well for people. And that’s what we’ve been doing and it’s, uh, it’s been a lot of fun. One other thing I wanted to mention is, um, I’ve obviously talked about two things, tools and agentic apps.[00:23:42] We really designed Dreamer to be an ecosystem and a platform, and one of my favorite quotes about platforms, I think it’s from Bill Gates, is that you can only be a platform. If you create more value for the folks participating and using the platform than, than the platform itself creates. [00:24:00] And that’s our goal here.[00:24:01] So we at every step have been thinking about how do we make sure that other people are deriving even more value from Dreamer than we are? So in that vein, I already mentioned tool builders get paid and people can build agents that solve their needs and share them with others, and we are already thinking about ways that they can actually monetize those as well.[00:24:24] Against that backdrop, one of the things that we are launching today is our Builders in Residence program. So there are tons of people building really cool stuff and contributing it to the gallery already, but we’ve been really inspired by programs we’ve seen at other companies where artists might be in residence, people that are very creative.[00:24:43] And might have ideas outside of what the, the folks at the company or in the ecosystem already have. And so we are looking for creative people who have fun ideas and, you know, want to really figure out how to apply their creativity at the cutting edge [00:25:00] of technology today to come and work with us. So, uh, if you go to dreamer.com/latent space, you’ll find, ooh, well, we love Latent space.[00:25:09] Uh, you’ll find a link both to, uh, our tool Builder information and our builder in residence program. And for builders and residents, we’ll let you in off the wait list quickly, build an agent, and then for a small number of, of the most creative folks, we’re going to pay you to build agents. Uh, you can work directly with our team.[00:25:29] You know, this is like building Legos. So, you know, we’ve got some of the basic blocks together already, but if you need a Ron steering wheel and we don’t have one already, like we’ll build it for you. Yeah. Um, we really want to be inspired by, by these, uh, these builders in residence.[00:25:43] swyx: This Legos thing is pretty common as an analogy.[00:25:46] And there’s a, there’s a thing I call the master builder. Uh, we, the actual Lego company has master builders that they employ Yeah. To inspire people and post on socials.[00:25:56] David Singleton: That is exactly what inspired us as well. Honestly, we talked about the Lego Master [00:26:00] Builder program, so that’s our builder in residence program.[00:26:02] swyx: Yeah.[00:26:03] David Singleton: Um, and then, uh, finally back on, on tools. Like I said, anyone can come in and build tools today. If you follow the latent space link dreamer.com/latent space, again, we’ll get you off. Directly off the wait list. So you can build right away, you can monetize by publishing onto the platform. That’s for everyone, the very best tool that gets added to the platform by mid-April.[00:26:23] Uh, we have a $10,000 prize that we want to give out really, because we just want to seed the creativity of everyone out there. So we’re excited to do that.[00:26:31] swyx: Yeah. And you know, uh, this is completely a flywheel, right? Like the more tools, the more builders, the more the third thing agents, you know, it just feeds into each other.[00:26:39] David Singleton: That’s right.[00:26:39] swyx: Yeah. Just on the payments thing, because we probably won’t touch on that again, but I have to ask the former CTO Stripe on payments as presumably you’re using Stripe Connect.[00:26:48] David Singleton: Yeah.[00:26:48] swyx: Um. Any pain points that you’re, people are very interested in agent commerce and micropayment and all these things.[00:26:55] Presumably stable coins get into a conversation at some point, but maybe not now.[00:26:58] David Singleton: Yeah, we are [00:27:00] really, really excited about e agent commerce. The first step we are taking is help people in the world who have never been able to build these kind of experiences and software before to build stuff that meets their passions, share it with the world and get paid.[00:27:14] So that’s all commerce that happens on our platform, and so we don’t need anything new to facilitate that. Stripe Connect has existed for quite a while and is the perfect solution for this kind of stuff, so, um, we we’re excited about that. First and foremost, however. A lot of the things that people are already doing on Dreamer, we just talked about a self-completing to-do list.[00:27:34] A lot of the ways that you want to complete to-dos is by actually closing the loop in the real world, and that’s going to involve the exchange of value. So we have some folks that are building tools already that actually do have money move in order to, to complete that, that loop. So far, we just want to be open and agnostic to all the protocols out there.[00:27:54] I honestly think this moment in time is a little bit like the early web. So I personally started coding as a kid [00:28:00] and I think I got access to the internet in about 19 95, 19 96. And back then, uh, the web existed, you know, HTTP was a protocol, but there were also other protocols I was using all the time, like Gopher and UUCP and uh, various others.[00:28:15] So the point is like the web, HTTP and HTML. Was just one among many protocols. And of course it became the winner and it’s awesome. Yeah. Um, but the others were also kind of interesting and viable at the time as well. And I think the world of agentic commerce is like this right now. Also,[00:28:30] swyx: acp.[00:28:31] David Singleton: Acp, exactly.[00:28:32] All the, all the cps, you know, on Dreamer. We hope that folks will build tools that kinda make use of all of these things, but I’m sure that at a certain point. One or two will emerge as the winners, and then we’ll be able to build like really deep support in,[00:28:44] swyx: yeah. This is like maybe a complete tangent, but I do think about how a lot of these companies in AI companies in particular have to switch from c based to usage based because of course, but then, then they end up, end up having to sort of [00:29:00] obscure the margins a little bit and then they inventing end up inventing their equivalent of rob robots.[00:29:04] David Singleton: Mm-hmm.[00:29:04] swyx: Uh, where they’re like, well, okay, well every company should have their own currency. And it’s, it’s like very short lead to a token.[00:29:11] David Singleton: Yeah.[00:29:11] swyx: Or, and I’m like, okay, well where does this end? I can’t really play out the next step as to like, is this chaos? Is this,[00:29:18] David Singleton: yeah.[00:29:18] swyx: Okay.[00:29:18] David Singleton: Well, I think it is kind of like the wild west.[00:29:21] I don’t mean that in a completely, it’s all completely disorganized way, but there’s just so many things that could happen from here. The Overton window is very wide, right? Not far how this might land. And I’m just very excited to be building a platform that can take advantage of all of those opportunities and we’re just gonna be there.[00:29:36] Uh, working for our users to make sure that things that emerge work,[00:29:39] swyx: you’re gonna own the consumers, you’re gonna be up the OS for the app store for everything.[00:29:43] David Singleton: So one of the ways to think about this is, um, dreamer actually uses all of the state-of-the-art models as a user. You don’t have to think about should I be using, you know, Opus four six, or should I be using the five four model from [00:30:00] OpenAI?[00:30:00] We are continually doing evals and so forth to make sure that the best things are there for you. You can just build on the platform and know that as the world ships around, you’re gonna get the right stuff for you. Um, and I think that’s something that is needed to actually have folks take advantage of this technology at scale.[00:30:19] I’d love to show you another example of something I built.[00:30:21] swyx: Let’s do it.[00:30:22] David Singleton: This is another example of software that just lasts for a certain moment in time. So recently I went on a ski trip with a bunch of friends,[00:30:31] ski[00:30:31] David Singleton: Bum. Uh, so it uses ski bum. Yes. I went on a ski trip to Big Sky. I’d never been there before.[00:30:38] And I made this little intelligent app for us. And you can see it says it’s loading big sky conditions. So it’s actually calling the Ski Bum tool that I just showed you, which is, uh, published in our, uh, in our gallery. So what is this? This is a little app that was just for our weekend trip. It shows the current status of all the lifts of Big Sky.[00:30:54] Using that tool from the ecosystem, it shows the forecast for the upcoming weekend. It shows our [00:31:00] accommodation. This is just like where my group was staying. This is just for us and also a bunch of dining information that one of our friends, uh, put together who, who’s an expert on Big Sky. So I was able to take this app, share the link with my friends.[00:31:12] They weren’t on Dreamer yet, just send it to them on iMessage and they get a version they can use on their phone. And of course, here’s the real kicker. So I’ve been on ski trips before and other weekend adventures with my friends. Yeah, people pay for different things and at the end of the weekend it’s always a pain to figure out who needs to pay, who to settle up.[00:31:29] So we use this during the weekend. We added all of our expenses in here. Uh, too close are it’s drill data. It’s only too closely. And then at the end of the trip, we press split. And we’re, we settled up and we’re done. So there’s another dreamer. This was all through dreamer. So the, the actual payment? No, no.[00:31:47] We, it happened because, because we paid for stuff in the real world, it was like, okay, this person needs to pay that person 20 bucks. Right? Right. This person already paid in that. Right. So it just helped us all settle up. We didn’t move the money on Dreamer. You could do that. And in fact, if you’re a tool builder [00:32:00] thinking about this and getting excited, like come build a tool to do that stuff.[00:32:02] We really think of our tool builders as design partners.[00:32:05] swyx: Yeah. I got, I got the tool. Uh, what, like, I hate, I use Bank of America. I hate bank, I hate the app. Mm-hmm. I hate the web. All banking websites just horrible.[00:32:13] David Singleton: Yeah.[00:32:13] swyx: So just build me, like build a thing on top of Plaid.[00:32:15] David Singleton: Yeah. Right. And then just So[00:32:17] swyx: five code by banking app,[00:32:18] David Singleton: there’s already a tool for that.[00:32:20] Oh. So, um, attain Finance is a tool, a builder in our community built. Okay. Um, and it uses a secure system like Plaid. To access your, uh, financial data and you can build powerful personal finance agents on Dreamer today using this tool. And like I said, we review tools carefully. So when bringing Attain Finance onto the platform, we did actually quite a detailed security review with that company to make sure that if folks build stuff with it, it’s, it’s gonna work well.[00:32:49] So yeah, check that out. I think, uh, I’m, I’m pretty certain it connects to Bank of America. So you’ll be able to build the, the app that you wanted already?[00:32:55] swyx: Yeah. There’s a couple of points I wanted to sort of dive in on, maybe highlight to folks, [00:33:00] because I, obviously, I spent more time with Dreamers. So we’re making a point where you choose on behalf of your users because they’re meant to be consumers.[00:33:07] So maybe less technical,[00:33:08] David Singleton: right?[00:33:08] swyx: But obviously people can, how users can override. If you read that’s, but it’s not just lms, it is also the, the transcription. It, it’s like all, like there’s, there’s a first party curated set of here’s the house opinion. That’s right. On what?[00:33:21] David Singleton: That’s[00:33:21] swyx: right. The thing is, that’s right.[00:33:22] Is what’s the list? Is there like,[00:33:24] David Singleton: yeah, so actually if you look in the tool gallery, the first party kind of curated set are all the ones that have these grayscale icons. So we have a built in tool for image understanding, for image generation, for RSS, exploration, text to speech and so forth.[00:33:38] swyx: Recipes.[00:33:39] David Singleton: Uh, we actually do have a built in recipes tool.[00:33:41] It turns out that a lot of people in our alpha wanted to do stuff for cooking. Yeah. Um, and you know, you can scrape the web to get good recipes, but we were able to quite quickly find a good repository of recipes. It works great here. Yeah.[00:33:55] Stable Tool Interfaces[00:33:55] David Singleton: So the point behind these though is that we’ll keep the interfaces stable, so they’ll always work.[00:34:00] But you know, the best translation model and, you know, there are people using this translation tool to translate Chinese podcasts into English. It’s, it’s pretty powerful. It can deal with very long text, but the best translation tool today might be different from the best translation tool sometime next year.[00:34:15] And we’re just gonna make sure that that translation tool is always pretty close to state of the art. So you can build something and you know it’s gonna continue to work well. Of course, some of our tools are branded. You may actually have a preferred way of buying groceries, like maybe you prefer Instacart and that’s great.[00:34:29] You can use the Instacart tool specifically.[00:34:31] swyx: Yeah.[00:34:32] Partnerships And Ecosystem[00:34:32] swyx: Your partnerships, uh, I mean, I don’t know if you ever hit of partnerships, but this is gonna be a bonanza for anyone on to do deals.[00:34:38] David Singleton: We have an amazing person who, uh, works on all of our partnerships. Um, and it’s part of what you have to do to build a platform like this that’s gonna work for people.[00:34:46] Like, we’ve gone and done that. Schlep has a lot of work, one talks lots of different companies, um, in order to make sure that you’ve got good tools at the core.[00:34:54] swyx: Yeah.[00:34:54] David Singleton: And then of course, because we’re open to tool builders contributing to the platform, this is only gonna get better and better and [00:35:00] better.[00:35:00] swyx: Yeah.[00:35:01] Agent Lab Routing Layer[00:35:01] swyx: One observation I have this, this is gonna master a thesis I’ve been pursuing, which is, uh, what I’ve been calling an agent lab[00:35:05] David Singleton: mm-hmm.[00:35:06] swyx: Where you sort of different than a model lab in, in, in the sense that you never train your own models, but you are the router evaluation layer, ex subject domain expert for choosing between, uh, models.[00:35:18] David Singleton: Yeah.[00:35:18] swyx: And you’re explicitly doing these things. And so like in my sort of construction, every agent lab does some version of this where like, here’s the image understanding endpoint and we will route for you and don’t worry about it. Yeah. Sally, I think it’s kind of cool.[00:35:32] David Singleton: I, I think it makes total sense. Um, and again, to make this work for folks that don’t follow the AI news every day, it’s an actually, it’s a, it’s a really important thing to do.[00:35:42] Yeah. And it, it’s been, it’s been a real pleasure. I mean, I’m a, I’m personally a total geek for this stuff. I love it. And being able to go and dive into all those details in order to make it work well for other people. It’s a true pleasure. I cannot imagine working at anything else right now. It’s just so much fun.[00:35:56] swyx: The tricky part is multimodality when some of these things do [00:36:00] merge.[00:36:00] David Singleton: Mm-hmm.[00:36:01] swyx: And you are, you’re sort of, this is your imposing structure on things that fundamentally don’t want to be structured. And so sometimes that might work against you, but for 99% of these cases, this is fine.[00:36:10] David Singleton: Yeah. I mean, I think it’s gonna be very interesting to see how the, the, the world matures because a lot of the power of dreamer is the ability to kick off these subagents, so these powerful agent harnesses, which can actually change how they work based on the data.[00:36:25] I actually think that we will be able to. Kind of keep up with and stay at the forefront of the changing landscape of how tools and systems work together. And that’s, that’s new. You know, software didn’t used to work like this and now it does. Um, so even, even just figuring out how to design the right pri to make that possible has itself be a lot of fun.[00:36:44] Builders Can Publish Tools[00:36:44] swyx: This is, is a sort of maybe two part question that why can’t streamer make its own tools? And then why don’t you let you builders maybe stand up their own routing group? I call this a routing group, right? Like where it’s like collect Yeah. Things.[00:36:58] David Singleton: So two things, to [00:37:00] some extent, dreamer does make its own tools in that agents appear to the system as tools.[00:37:05] So they can be, they can be used to accomplish things. So you can build an agent that is essentially a tool. Yeah. Um, and it it,[00:37:12] swyx: which is to me very useful for reuse.[00:37:14] David Singleton: Right.[00:37:14] swyx: Right. Exactly. ‘cause I, I like, this is the way I like it. Now my next five apps, I don’t want to do this whole series of back and forth again.[00:37:20] David Singleton: Right.[00:37:21] swyx: Yeah.[00:37:21] David Singleton: Um. Then at the tool layer of the system, it’s open to anyone. So it’s actually quite powerful and flexible. So if you wanted to add a tool, which was, uh, imagine that you were training your own foundation model, Swyx. That might be fun. And imagine you wanted people to be able to play with, I don’t know, maybe you make like, you know, nano chat or whatever and you want to Yeah.[00:37:42] Let people play with your own nano chat and see how I change themselves.[00:37:44] swyx: Now.[00:37:45] David Singleton: You could, you could publish a tool that is Nano Chat and it nano image generation behind a tool, and it could be your own writer if you wanted to. I see. And honestly, if that’s the kind of thing that gets you excited as a builder, please come and do it.[00:37:57] Like we, we really are [00:38:00] believers in this idea that we aren’t going to figure out every single detail ourselves. We’re gonna make sure it’s a safe and fun place to build this stuff, but we’re really open to these ideas coming from other people. Um, and so I’d like nothing more than you come in and build a tool that does some of that cool stuff that you, that you have in mind.[00:38:15] swyx: Yeah. Awesome.[00:38:16] David Singleton: And just as a reminder, if you’d like to do that, the way to find the links is dreamer.com/latent space. Um, and for a limited time on that page, um, anyone who’s listening to this podcast will also get directly off of our wait list. Uh, it’s quite long right now. We are working hard to bring Zika.[00:38:32] Wait, so skip the wait list.[00:38:33] swyx: You know, I think, I think that’s fantastic. I, I think it’s, it is really sort of probuild way to do it. I wanted to jump back to the, the bar. Yeah. You know, you know, I get excited about this.[00:38:41] David Singleton: Yes. Okay. Let’s set it back in there.[00:38:43] swyx: Like, let’s, you know, this is the engineer podcast that’s get[00:38:46] David Singleton: Yeah.[00:38:46] swyx: As technical as you can.[00:38:47] David Singleton: Yeah.[00:38:47] swyx: On everything you’ve built, like have a show off.[00:38:50] David Singleton: Yeah. Okay.[00:38:51] Under The Hood Debugging[00:38:51] David Singleton: So let’s go wild in the aisles in the Asian studio. So as you can see, over on the left here is a conversation with the sidekick where you ask it what to do and it will explain in English that anyone can understand what’s going on.[00:39:03] But, um, if you want to pull back the covers and look under the hood, um, if you’re, uh, an engineer like me, then we have this, uh, this kind of debug drawer at the bottom. So you can see the full build logs here, but you can actually also dig in and see the files and prompts that have been generated. Uh, you can upload files from your computer in static files.[00:39:24] Um,[00:39:24] swyx: very important,[00:39:25] David Singleton: uh, indeed. You can actually read the prompts that have been generated for you. We intentionally put an example in here just that you can see what the format looks like. And then, you know, we already looked at this one that was generated for this particular, um, app, but if you actually want to bring the code out of Dreamer and work on your own local machine, you can.[00:39:45] So at the core of everything here is an SDK with a powerful command line interface and we built that first. It’s actually possible to build agents on Dreamer without talking to the sidekick. You can write code with your fingers on a keyboard if you want to. I know that’s very [00:40:00] antiquated, not, but actually this can be a lot of fun.[00:40:02] So if you wanna pull it out onto your laptop, you can use our, our CLI and, uh, you can edit it in cursor or in cloud code. You know, you don’t have to use our sidekick. And the CLI actually has full access to the rest of the platform with you as the user. So, you know, obviously it is, uh, secure and privacy sensitive, and this is a way that, um, some of our most technical builders do build stuff on the platform.[00:40:24] The really cool thing is the side cake. When it’s in coding mode, it uses exactly the same CLI. So the way it. Build stuff on Dreamer is using the same tools that you might as an engineer. Um, and that’s actually a very powerful abstraction because it turns out that the right way to give a lot of context to agents to use CLIs is to write great documentation.[00:40:46] Make sure that all of the things that you could do are actually possible. And guess what? That makes it a delightful developer experience for real heroes as well.[00:40:53] swyx: Yeah. So that’s pretty cool. We’ve been telling developers to do this and they ignore this until now they have to for content.[00:40:58] David Singleton: I, I’ve been saying this for a [00:41:00] long time.[00:41:00] Uh, we actually Stripe docs.[00:41:02] swyx: I mean, come on. Absolutely. Come on.[00:41:03] David Singleton: Absolutely. But actually, I was chatting with folks at Stripe last week and saying, Hey, you gotta make the Stripe CLI actually tell agents what they can do on Stripe because that way they’re gonna use more stuff on Stripe. I think this is a real trend for the entire industry.[00:41:16] swyx: Yeah.[00:41:16] David Singleton: So we, we’ve been doing that.[00:41:17] swyx: To me, this, this download and, uh, GI push mm-hmm. Everything is complete confidence in that you’re not hacking it. Right. Because there’s other, let’s call them AI builder platforms that impose their stack on you and if you, if you, and so therefore they don’t allow you to do this because they cannot.[00:41:34] Right. ‘cause they, they impose some degrees of freedom, uh, restrictions so that they can get it to work. Yours is a fully general like VM running the full code. Correct. Do whatever you want. Correct. Any language you want. Correct. Yeah.[00:41:46] David Singleton: Correct. Well, in terms of language, if you use the SDK, you could build stuff in other languages.[00:41:51] We’ve actually found that TypeScript is the best language for building these experiences. Yes. Because it’s strongly tight. So you find out at compile time if you’ve made mistakes [00:42:00] and there’s nothing better than getting in. A coding agent in a loop where it can see its mistakes and ask them. So TypeScript is the language that everything gets built in by default here.[00:42:08] swyx: Did And did you see that TypeScript overtook Python? I did. I did. Yeah.[00:42:12] David Singleton: And for what it’s worth, when we started the company, we started writing stuff in Python, and I love Python. Um, if I do, uh, a vendor code, I always write it in Python. It’s my favorite language as a developer with my fingers on the keyboard.[00:42:23] Um, but TypeScript is an amazing language for AI because there’s tons of training data in the models, um, and it’s strongly tight. And actually at the company we built most of the stack in TypeScript, and we have this amazing property, which is, we have type safety all the way from the database to the front end.[00:42:40] And there’s nothing better for working with coding agents than being able to have them check their correctness, compile time. So the same ideas behind building the company’s code base, we’ve put into the agent SDK here as well.[00:42:51] swyx: Yeah. Do you know if you’d use one of those tools, like Prisma or whatever, or is it Tool Lab for you?[00:42:55] David Singleton: We, we actually have crafted most of our own tools. Um. For [00:43:00] instance, we had LLM Driven Code Review, uh, before the thing that got published from philanthropic this week. You know, we, we’ve been doing this stuff, uh, on our own bat[00:43:07] swyx: email, we’ll pay $25 per review.[00:43:09] David Singleton: We, we pay a lot less than that. However, I hear that those reviews are excellent and possibly worth $25.[00:43:14] swyx: Yeah. You know, it’s an option. Right. It’s good, good to have it.[00:43:17] David Singleton: Just to give you a tour of some other stuff here. So, um, I can also see all the versions. Yeah. Um, this is not gi, this is not gi, this is built into dreamer. I can see all the versions that have been pushed before. Why is it[00:43:27] swyx: not gi?[00:43:28] David Singleton: It’s not gi because we can make it work more efficiently than Git.[00:43:32] And we actually, we do some work behind the scenes to kind of understand what’s in each of these versions. Yeah. Um,[00:43:37] swyx: so one of the things I’m pursuing, and I have a lot of thesis, right? Mm-hmm. One of the thesis is like, does GI go away? Does GitHub go away? And like, what, what is the active reinvent[00:43:46] David Singleton: you for, for what it’s worth to some extent.[00:43:48] And anything you build, there’s a lot of path dependency. If we started over, we might make this gi There’s, uh, you know, within the company we use, uh. For our, you know, platform source code. And we like it and it [00:44:00] works well with coding agents as well. The very first versions of this, we wanted to be able to make it possible for the sidekick to manipulate it easily.[00:44:06] Um, and this, this was an expedient way to do it.[00:44:08] swyx: Yeah.[00:44:08] Workflows Logs And Databases[00:44:08] David Singleton: Um, you can also see all the activity that has happened in the workflows that you build. A lot of agents, you’ll build on Dreamer, do things in the background, so they run on triggers. These are stimuli from the outside to kick them off, and this is a nice way to see all of the things that might have kicked off your agent.[00:44:24] You know, you can have an agent that kicks off on a webhook, so you can plug it into external systems. You can have an agent that runs when you receive certain emails that match filters, including LLM filters. And so here you can see, oh, when did it run? What did it do? You know, if I open up one of these guide me prompts or guide me, uh, events.[00:44:41] Oh my can see God. Well, I told you it was calling an LLM for every one of those time slots. Here’s all of the LLM calls, here’s the actual prompts.[00:44:49] swyx: And you don’t mind exposing all of this, right?[00:44:51] David Singleton: No. We want builders to see what’s going on under the hood. It’s haiku to,[00:44:53] swyx: okay. Yeah. So,[00:44:54] David Singleton: okay. Right now that one was haiku.[00:44:56] Like I said, we work with all the models and sidekick will actually pick the best one [00:45:00] for the job. And you saw that was pretty high quality and pretty fast. So Haiku four five is the one that it picked for that job. Exactly. Uh, we also have logs, as I mentioned, there’s a database spun up on demand for every, uh, agent.[00:45:12] You don’t have to go and figure out how to do your own hosting. This is a SQL Light. This is a SQL Light database. Yeah. Um, it’s a multi-user SQL light database. And then, uh, but, but each one is you, you get a database that is unique to this agent. But then if you share the agent with multiple people, we take care of like who are the owners in each row?[00:45:31] And all of that stuff is just there outta the box. Um,[00:45:34] swyx: and again, in-house?[00:45:35] David Singleton: In-house.[00:45:36] swyx: Oh my God.[00:45:37] David Singleton: Yeah. Um, well we do work with a bunch of infrastructure providers, but the technology for how to manipulate this is in-house. Fun fact. We actually did a lot of our own infrastructure development early on at the company and realized we need to spend our energy in the stuff that we’re uniquely doing in the world.[00:45:53] So we’re very delighted to partner with a bunch of great designer and some of this stuff. And then finally, um, I mentioned that agentic apps agents [00:46:00] expose all of their internals to the system so the psychic can manipulate them and use them just like a user can. So you can see how it’s decided to break this problem up into functions.[00:46:09] Some of the functions, the ones with the little I here are exported. That means that there’s probably the visible from outside. Exactly. And others are internal. And if you want to, you can dig right in here and call individual functions and see what happens. But mostly. You don’t need to think about that at all.[00:46:24] Yeah. Uh, you can keep that little drawer closed and you can talk to your sidekick and build really powerful and enchanting experiences.[00:46:30] swyx: Yeah. I mean, to me, like showing this gives the engineer a complete mental model of what you’ve done and what you can do with it. Yeah. For example, the first thing I, I, I look for.[00:46:39] A mental checklist of things, right? Like is off in the database, off looks like it’s not right. So that’s a separate layer. That’s probably me means it’s hard to do multi-user apps on the same app, right?[00:46:50] David Singleton: So you actually, we’ve solved that. So, um, see, yes, the platform builds in off, so you as a user sign into the platform, if you’re using an [00:47:00] agent that was published by someone else, then your identity is, is kind of taken care of by the system.[00:47:05] And when you query the database, you’re gonna get the stuff that is for you. Unless the builder specifically said, this is public data that everyone should see. So they, they actually get a chance to think about that. And again, sidekick can guide you through building, uh, agents and apps that work that way.[00:47:19] So you’re right, that’s another thing that people have to think about when they’re trying to figure out how to build software experiences on Dreamer. You, it’s built in. You talk to the sidekick as if it were a human being about what you want and that’s what you get. So, you know, my, my Big Sky app that I just showed you that was designed for multiple people to use it.[00:47:38] And of course the things that we were putting in as expenses were supposed to be visible to everybody, and I just told the sidekick that’s the way I wanted it. Uh, but by default, if I built an app like that, the data from each user would not been visible to the others.[00:47:49] swyx: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, this is, I presume this is a mood question, but basically you’ve had to build your own coding agent, right?[00:47:55] Which is sidekick slash whatever is in Inside Psychic. Obviously there’s a lot of [00:48:00] people with a lot of desire for cloud code and Code X and attachment to it. Mm-hmm. I know under the hood data basically reduced to a loop, but like, would you let people use cloud coding and Code X or is the harness too specialized?[00:48:12] David Singleton: Yeah. If you, if you want to use, um, cloud code and Code X, then you go down here. Yeah. Hit get the S St K. And we even say this right here, edits your heart’s content Z cursor code.[00:48:22] swyx: Like people want to use it inside of Ick, right? Yeah. They want to switch the engine.[00:48:26] David Singleton: Yeah.[00:48:26] swyx: That’s the coding engine.[00:48:27] David Singleton: Yeah. We are not doing that right now.[00:48:29] Um, you know, again, the goal really is abstract the complexity. Yeah. Um, because the real target for. Building agentic apps is folks who can’t do this already today. I can’t tell you how many users in our community I’ve spoken to who are like Dreamer has changed my life because I used to have all these ideas.[00:48:50] If only I could find an engineer to help me implement them, I’d be able to get them done. They’re free, and now I can talk to my sidekick and, and get it built. I think that’s like really how we think [00:49:00] about the people that should get a ton of value and fun, um, out of the platform. And so they’re not asking to be able to plug in their their own, you know, coding agent.[00:49:11] And for those folks, the opportunity is massive. If you’ve never been able to do stuff in code, now you can build stuff for you, for your friends, for your family, for your coworkers. And also there’s a huge opportunity for folks who do build stuff in code to actually contribute to this ecosystem. So that’s how we think about it.[00:49:28] swyx: Yeah. Amazing.[00:49:28] Personalization And Memory[00:49:28] swyx: That’s most of what I wanted to cover Dreamer wise. I think personalization and memory yeah. Is probably like the single most important job of, uh, of the os. Maybe we could talk about that and then I’ll, I wanted to zoom out on company building stuff.[00:49:40] David Singleton: Yeah, yeah. Sounds good.[00:49:41] swyx: Yeah. So how do you handle memory?[00:49:43] What, yeah, what have you found? What have you tried and failed?[00:49:45] David Singleton: Yeah. Okay. So, uh, first of all, at the core of dreamer is the sidekick. The sidekick gets to know you and it builds up a memory about you over time, and that turns out to be very important. So Dreamer, that’s your moat. That’s Dreamer gets better the more you use it.[00:50:00][00:50:00] For instance, a lot of agents in the platform, when you start using them, the first thing that they’ll show you, here’s what I think is relevant to you for this particular use case. Uh, a very popular kind of agent on Dreamer is a weekend activity planner. So, um,[00:50:14] swyx: like, just tell me what to do.[00:50:15] David Singleton: Well, tell me what to do, especially if I’ve got kids, right?[00:50:17] So I have two kids and a dog, and my wife and I often spend a lot of time trying to figure out what are we gonna do with the crew this weekend. And, you know, we have interests that are very consistent. It actually can take a ton of work during the week to figure this out. So there is an agent on Dreamer called Weekend Activity Planner, and it helps me find things to do with, with the family of the weekend.[00:50:39] In fact, this morning I got a message from my weekend activity planner telling me about the St. Patrick’s Day parade on Saturday. Oh, at Civic Center. I’m Irish. My kids are technically Irish as well. I mean, they, they, they have multiple citizenships, but you know, they’re, they’re Irish. Um, what a better thing to do than take them to the St.[00:50:56] Patrick’s Day parade. Why did that get recommended to me? Because in the [00:51:00] profile that we can, activity Planner knows about me. It knows that I’m Irish, right? So all of that comes from the memory that Psychic builds up about me over time. We have invested in this a bunch. We will continue to invest in this more.[00:51:11] We’ve tried actually many different techniques. As, you know, the, the kind of, um, cutting edge of a agentic memory has changed over time. You know, very early on we were putting lots of facts into a vector database and, uh, and doing embeddings and pulling them back out, um, using, you know, reverse lookup of embeddings rag that actually worked, but turned out to be much more complexity than was actually required.[00:51:33] So, you know, today we’ve replaced it with a different system. Uh, I think we use a system that’s pretty similar to what you’ll find in lots of other products, but it’s an area that we’re actively, uh, investing in. Like, there’s, there’s. More than one person at the company specifically working on memory. And so expect us to just continue to make it better.[00:51:50] swyx: Did you try knowledge graphs?[00:51:51] David Singleton: We’ve tried knowledge graphs. The system that we have now is not a knowledge graph. Yeah. Um, but we’ve probably implemented most of the papers you’ve seen out there on agent [00:52:00] memory and the current system is working pretty well.[00:52:02] swyx: Yeah. Excellent. Zooming out just on the company stuff.[00:52:06] Mm-hmm. Um, uh, this is your first time in the CEO seat. Correct. You were CTO before. Correct. What’s different?[00:52:11] David Singleton: Yeah. The difference between being a CEO and A CTO really is just. Like making sure you’re looking across everything. So, um, I have run products before, so for instance, Android wear, you’re basically a CEO[00:52:25] swyx: of[00:52:25] David Singleton: that product.[00:52:26] I, I, I was running that as a general manager.[00:52:28] swyx: Yeah.[00:52:29] David Singleton: However, when you do it for your own company and the buck truly stops with you, it definitely kind of raises the temperature a little bit. Um, but it’s been a lot of fun for me to think about a lot of go to market topics. Um, I spend a lot of my time these days meeting users, uh, talking to folks about what they could do on the platform, being very active on X and LinkedIn, uh, which by the way is a huge pleasure.[00:52:51] It is so much fun to be able to engage with users and potential users directly and understand what they would like to do. Um, and that’s the biggest difference [00:53:00] between this role and being the CTO, um, of, uh, of a company. At the same time, I am someone who always likes to look for why are we doing this?[00:53:10] Who are the people that. Benefit from it. So, you know, even as A-C-T-O-I was always paying a lot of attention to topics across the company. So I feel very grateful for all I learned in my previous roles that kind of got me ready to, to do this at this kind of scale.[00:53:24] swyx: Yeah.[00:53:24] Tiny Teams Hiring And Taste[00:53:24] swyx: To me this is like the natural lead into when I went into your office.[00:53:27] Yeah. It’s surprisingly small.[00:53:28] David Singleton: Yes.[00:53:29] swyx: So, and I have a, another thesis I’m pursuing for latent space, which is the emergence of tiny teams. Yeah. Where, uh, you know, the, the classic sort of image is that teams with more millions in revenue than employees, right? Yeah. So you, that’s revenue efficiency definition.[00:53:43] But I do think as a CEO, you are going to run a smaller team than you used to.[00:53:46] David Singleton: Yeah. So I believe very strongly in the power of small teams. So the more people you add to a team, the more communication overhead there is. And it doesn’t even grow linearly. If you think about it, the more people you add, everyone cares [00:54:00] about getting to know everybody else.[00:54:01] And sharing what they’re doing with everybody else. And that’s great. I’m not saying they shouldn’t, right? The very, like, I wanna work in teams that are fun, where people are talking to each other and, and sharing ideas and so forth. But, you know, there’s just a kind of gravitational weight that comes from larger and larger teams.[00:54:16] So just inherently large organizations are less nimble than small ones. And if you run a large organization, you have to keep thinking about how do I kinda like prune things so that it can act like a small team. So a dreamer, the, the core team that built everything I just showed you was, was honestly about six people.[00:54:34] Uh, we’re larger than I we’re about 17 people at the company now because as, but[00:54:38] swyx: still, uh, for everything you just showed,[00:54:40] David Singleton: it’s, it’s still a small team, which is great. Very, very high talent density team. We’ve been very, very careful and kind of obsessed as we grew to make sure that everyone that’s joining the company is joining a team that they’re gonna get a lot of, uh, learning out of, but also they’re actually going to kind of.[00:54:57] Help everyone else a lot as well. There’s something very [00:55:00] special about that too. You know, every single person at our company I would be delighted to do any project with at any time because, uh, they’re just all great. And, you know, the smaller you keep the team, the easier it is to make sure that, that that talent density is there as well.[00:55:14] Of course, it’s a real luxury to be building a company. We started this company in late 24, but it’s a real luxury to be building a company today because we can build with agents. So we’re using coding agents.[00:55:26] swyx: Yeah,[00:55:26] David Singleton: we’re using Dreamer marketing agents. All of our operations. We’re looking at how we can, can actually accelerate what we’re doing, uh, using our own tools.[00:55:36] swyx: Um, any, actually any agents that you don’t build that you wanna shout out? Just that, that you love?[00:55:41] David Singleton: Yeah. Is it[00:55:41] swyx: other people’s[00:55:42] David Singleton: agents that we built for the[00:55:43] swyx: company? No, no, no. Other people’s, uh, stuff like you shout out granola.[00:55:46] David Singleton: Yeah. So I showed you Attain finance. Uh, attain Finance has an agent as well, which like helps you manage your money.[00:55:53] I find this really amazing. So, um, I always have this like lingering feeling that I’ve got a whole bunch of [00:56:00] subscriptions that if I just had a bit of time to go across them, I could, you know, figure out how to consolidate them. And the person who built Attain Finance doesn’t work at our company. What they were part of the early Alpha group.[00:56:10] So they gotta kind of look at how all this stuff works pretty early on. And they built this really amazing experience that actually helps you. Like, save a lot of money because it will kind of help you analyze your purchases. It’s almost like a kind of a financial fitness coach. He’s called Andrew, uh, who, who built it.[00:56:26] He came and showed it to us and the first thing it did was it recommended that he should buy fewer burritos. And, uh, he was like, it’s true. Like that is actually how I could save the most money. So, uh, that’s a, that’s a pretty cool example.[00:56:38] swyx: Uh, I noticed he was first. Because he’s order alphabetical order.[00:56:43] So I’m, I’m wondering how come there are no like Avar? Uh,[00:56:46] David Singleton: yeah. Well if you’re a builder right there and you’re wondering how do I seo o myself on the Dreamer platform, Swyx suggest you name your tool Avar. In all seriousness though, those are the tools I have connected. So they’re in alphabetical order.[00:56:58] If you haven’t yet connected them, we actually [00:57:00] kind of put them in the right order for you. So if Sidekick understands you and puts in the right order, uh, but I’d say a arc is gonna come before, uh, anything else,[00:57:06] swyx: right? Yeah, exactly. Um, and, and then I, I think how has hiring changed? Yeah. You’ve hired plenty of self engineers in your life.[00:57:14] David Singleton: Mm-hmm.[00:57:14] swyx: I assume something’s changed.[00:57:15] David Singleton: Yeah, absolutely. So one of the main things that I look for now when hiring engineers is. How well do you work with coding agents? Our team actually is quite experienced a good number. Everyone at Dreamer, other than, well, I guess I write a lot of code too. Everyone’s an ic, an individual contributor.[00:57:32] Many of the folks that work on the team have previously been managers. And it turns out being an engineering manager, as long as you stay very close to the code and are able to continue to craft it yourself, is actually a great skill profile for being able to make agents work for you and for your team in this, uh, in, in this age.[00:57:50] And so that’s definitely something that we look for quite intently when hiring engineers. And, um, we still have folks write some code like with their fingers. It’s just important to know [00:58:00] that the kind of core of the craft is there. But the vast majority of what we spend time doing is building quite significant and elaborate stuff together in a fun, collaborative environment with coding agents.[00:58:09] swyx: Right.[00:58:09] David Singleton: Um,[00:58:10] swyx: so what, what is the interview loop like? Sit there with Codex, do something.[00:58:13] David Singleton: Yeah, I mean, our interview loop is one a coding. Screen to make sure that the, the base is there. And then we actually do a couple of short projects, uh, with an engineer on our team and whoever is thinking about joining, where we’ll actually put out a very fully formed product idea, we’ll riff on it together and make sure that we can test product sense a little bit and we’ll actually try to build the whole thing with x or cloud code or whatever, uh, whatever the person is most familiar with.[00:58:39] Um, and watching how someone thinks about prompting the agents, what they do while the agent is working. ‘cause you know, you can actually, this is a kind of interesting, uh, dynamic in the industry. Anytime I’m working on code these days, I always have more than one agent going at the same time because while one agent is going and reviewing the output of the next one, and if you [00:59:00] get them in a nice round robin, you can be very, very productive.[00:59:02] You can also chain agents together. You can have one agent producing code, another agent reviewing it. And actually just seeing how folks have adapted their workflow, um, is a big part of what we’re we’re looking for in our interview process.[00:59:13] swyx: Amazing. I guess last question, but also open to you to bring up any topics that I haven’t touched on, have you wanted LLMs to do that they still cannot do today?[00:59:23] David Singleton: That’s a great question. Um, and it’s amazing ‘cause the capabilities of LLM just, just advanced so quickly. You know, if you’d asked me a year ago, I would’ve said, well, you know, music generation, I, I like music. Um, and Suno is amazing by the way. And, but previous generations i’d, yeah, I can kind of tell that that’s AI generated today.[00:59:42] I listened to the latest tracks made by Suno. I’m like, that’s, that’s pretty impressive. If we went back six months, I’d be asking for better image generation. The latest nano banana, uh, which by the way is a tool on the platform that you can use on Dreamer is producing spectacular infographics.[00:59:58] Spectacular [01:00:00] painterly images when I ask for those as well. So, so that’s quite impressive. I still think I, so I think as we go forward into the future, there is still a lot of room for human creativity and so that’s also maybe where I’m going to have to say that LLMs are most lacking. So I think that when you think about building software, the thing that’s really important and that we all need to bring is taste.[01:00:24] Mm-hmm. Right? You have to like actually truly understand people, their motivations. How do I build something that’s really delightful? So, you know, we had to do a lot of work on Dreamer to make it possible for the experiences that we build to not look like AI generic slop.[01:00:43] swyx: Right? We go,[01:00:44] David Singleton: um. And we’ve done that by putting a lot of our own taste into the templates and the prompts and the, the harness.[01:00:52] Um, so I hope you have fun playing with it. I, I, I think Dreamer today generates experiences that don’t feel super generic, but that’s a ton of [01:01:00] work, right? The LMS do not do that by default. And in fact, I, if I see a, if you ask for a simple like to-do list app or something, uh, built by the models, I can tell which model built it just by kind of how it looks.[01:01:10] So, um, taste, creativity, sense of individuality is still something that I think the LLMs are not producing out of the box. And I think that’s gonna be an interesting frontier. What do you think?[01:01:21] swyx: Usually that’s, this is by, uh, from builder to researcher question. ‘cause uh, we do have researchers listening.[01:01:27] Yeah. And I’m just like, well, that’s it. But like soft taste for me please is, is like a very broad topic. Uh, what do I think? I mean, I agree. I just think that it’s too big of a topic to break down. Mm-hmm. Particularly because there’s a lot of, I’ll know it when I see it type, uh, eval, which is unverifiable for, for researchers to do so.[01:01:45] David Singleton: Yeah, I mean I, I do talk to researchers quite often and, uh, we talk about this topic and I think most people agree[01:01:51] swyx: uhhuh[01:01:52] David Singleton: that, you know, one of the great things about building models to generate code was just, you know, it’s so verifiable. So Yeah. Um, you know, it’s [01:02:00] very tractable and they agree that the next problem is how do you kind of step up that hierarchy of needs and get into these taste questions.[01:02:08] And quantifying taste is hard, but I’m actually kind of excited that some people are gonna start doing this. And you know, that’s when I think that some of the really iconic companies in the world will start to become places where, you know, folks really try to like. Debug and understand the creative process.[01:02:23] And I get pretty excited about that.[01:02:25] swyx: Yeah. Uh, I, I think we are slowly uncovering what intelligence really means and, and the, the benchmarks that we adopt and then abandon because they’re solved is, is basically us evolving the machine intelligence in the way that we, the different way than we evolved, but we are slowly understanding what it means to be intelligent.[01:02:44] Right. And, uh, and it’s, it’s interesting. I wonder how they suppress us in the future, but like, we’re not even there yet. We’re just like, get, get it to a place where we like what we get. Mm-hmm. From the machinist sometimes. You know, it used to be 30%, now it’s like 95%, but still there’s that 5%. [01:03:00] That’s right.[01:03:00] Yeah. Any other topics we should have touched on?[01:03:02] David Singleton: No, I think we’ve covered everything, but I wanna remind everyone,[01:03:06] swyx: ct[01:03:06] David Singleton: dreamer.com/latent space.[01:03:09] swyx: Yes. No, it’s a, it’s a very good deal. I mean, like, come on. Like, yeah. So thank you for offering that.[01:03:14] David Singleton: Cool. Well Swyx, thank you so much. This was fun.[01:03:16] swyx: Yeah, thank you.[01:03:17] Uh, we, we’ll get Alejandro to put like flashing neon signs on the, on the YouTube. Cool. Wonderful. Um, alright. Thanks. So my cool,[01:03:23] David Singleton: awesome, thank you. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.latent.space/subscribe

Turbopuffer came out of a reading app.In 2022, Simon was helping his friends at Readwise scale their infra for a highly requested feature: article recommendations and semantic search. Readwise was paying ~$5k/month for their relational database and vector search would cost ~$20k/month making the feature too expensive to ship. In 2023 after mulling over the problem from Readwise, Simon decided he wanted to “build a search engine” which became Turbopuffer.We discuss:• Simon’s path: Denmark → Shopify infra for nearly a decade → “angel engineering” across startups like Readwise, Replicate, and Causal → turbopuffer almost accidentally becoming a company • The Readwise origin story: building an early recommendation engine right after the ChatGPT moment, seeing it work, then realizing it would cost ~$30k/month for a company spending ~$5k/month total on infra and getting obsessed with fixing that cost structure • Why turbopuffer is “a search engine for unstructured data”: Simon’s belief that models can learn to reason, but can’t compress the world’s knowledge into a few terabytes of weights, so they need to connect to systems that hold truth in full fidelity • The three ingredients for building a great database company: a new workload, a new storage architecture, and the ability to eventually support every query plan customers will want on their data • The architecture bet behind turbopuffer: going all in on object storage and NVMe, avoiding a traditional consensus layer, and building around the cloud primitives that only became possible in the last few years • Why Simon hated operating Elasticsearch at Shopify: years of painful on-call experience shaped his obsession with simplicity, performance, and eliminating state spread across multiple systems • The Cursor story: launching turbopuffer as a scrappy side project, getting an email from Cursor the next day, flying out after a 4am call, and helping cut Cursor’s costs by 95% while fixing their per-user economics • The Notion story: buying dark fiber, tuning TCP windows, and eating cross-cloud costs because Simon refused to compromise on architecture just to close a deal faster • Why AI changes the build-vs-buy equation: it’s less about whether a company can build search infra internally, and more about whether they have time especially if an external team can feel like an extension of their own • Why RAG isn’t dead: coding companies still rely heavily on search, and Simon sees hybrid retrieval semantic, text, regex, SQL-style patterns becoming more important, not less • How agentic workloads are changing search: the old pattern was one retrieval call up front; the new pattern is one agent firing many parallel queries at once, turning search into a highly concurrent tool call • Why turbopuffer is reducing query pricing: agentic systems are dramatically increasing query volume, and Simon expects retrieval infra to adapt to huge bursts of concurrent search rather than a small number of carefully chosen calls • The philosophy of “playing with open cards”: Simon’s habit of being radically honest with investors, including telling Lachy Groom he’d return the money if turbopuffer didn’t hit PMF by year-end • The “P99 engineer”: Simon’s framework for building a talent-dense company, rejecting by default unless someone on the team feels strongly enough to fight for the candidate —Simon Hørup Eskildsen• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sirupsen• X: https://x.com/Sirupsen• https://sirupsen.com/aboutturbopuffer• https://turbopuffer.com/Full Video PodTimestamps00:00:00 The PMF promise to Lachy Groom00:00:25 Intro and Simon's background00:02:19 What turbopuffer actually is00:06:26 Shopify, Elasticsearch, and the pain behind the company00:10:07 The Readwise experiment that sparked turbopuffer00:12:00 The insight Simon couldn’t stop thinking about00:17:00 S3 consistency, NVMe, and the architecture bet00:20:12 The Notion story: latency, dark fiber, and conviction00:25:03 Build vs. buy in the age of AI00:26:00 The Cursor story: early launch to breakout customer00:29:00 Why code search still matters00:32:00 Search in the age of agents00:34:22 Pricing turbopuffer in the AI era00:38:17 Why Simon chose Lachy Groom00:41:28 Becoming a founder on purpose00:44:00 The “P99 engineer” philosophy00:49:30 Bending software to your will00:51:13 The future of turbopuffer00:57:05 Simon’s tea obsession00:59:03 Tea kits, X Live, and P99 LiveTranscriptSimon Hørup Eskildsen: I don’t think I’ve said this publicly before, but I just called Lockey and was like, local Lockie. Like if this doesn’t have PMF by the end of the year, like we’ll just like return all the money to you. But it’s just like, I don’t really, we, Justine and I don’t wanna work on this unless it’s really working.So we want to give it the best shot this year and like we’re really gonna go for it. We’re gonna hire a bunch of people. We’re just gonna be honest with everyone. Like when I don’t know how to play a game, I just play with open cards. Lockey was the only person that didn’t, that didn’t freak out. He was like, I’ve never heard anyone say that before.Alessio: Hey everyone, welcome to the Leading Space podcast. This is Celesio Pando, Colonel Laz, and I’m joined by Swix, editor of Leading Space.swyx: Hello. Hello, uh, we’re still, uh, recording in the Ker studio for the first time. Very excited. And today we are joined by Simon Eski. Of Turbo Farer welcome.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Thank you so much for having me.swyx: Turbo Farer has like really gone on a huge tear, and I, I do have to mention that like you’re one of, you’re not my newest member of the Danish AHU Mafia, where like there’s a lot of legendary programmers that have come out of it, like, uh, beyond Trotro, Rasmus, lado Berg and the V eight team and, and Google Maps team.Uh, you’re mostly a Canadian now, but isn’t that interesting? There’s so many, so much like strong Danish presence.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah, I was writing a post, um, not that long ago about sort of the influences. So I grew up in Denmark, right? I left, I left when, when I was 18 to go to Canada to, to work at Shopify. Um, and so I, like, I’ve, I would still say that I feel more Danish than, than Canadian.This is also the weird accent. I can’t say th because it, this is like, I don’t, you know, my wife is also Canadian, um, and I think. I think like one of the things in, in Denmark is just like, there’s just such a ruthless pragmatism and there’s also a big focus on just aesthetics. Like, they’re like very, people really care about like where, what things look like.Um, and like Canada has a lot of attributes, US has, has a lot of attributes, but I think there’s been lots of the great things to carry. I don’t know what’s in the water in Ahu though. Um, and I don’t know that I could be considered part of the Mafi mafia quite yet, uh, compared to the phenomenal individuals we just mentioned.Barra OV is also, uh, Danish Canadian. Okay. Yeah. I don’t know where he lives now, but, and he’s the PHP.swyx: Yeah. And obviously Toby German, but moved to Canada as well. Yes. Like this is like import that, uh, that, that is an interesting, um, talent move.Alessio: I think. I would love to get from you. Definition of Turbo puffer, because I think you could be a Vector db, which is maybe a bad word now in some circles, you could be a search engine.It’s like, let, let’s just start there and then we’ll maybe run through the history of how you got to this point.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: For sure. Yeah. So Turbo Puffer is at this point in time, a search engine, right? We do full text search and we do vector search, and that’s really what we’re specialized in. If you’re trying to do much more than that, like then this might not be the right place yet, but Turbo Buffer is all about search.The other way that I think about it is that we can take all of the world’s knowledge, all of the exabytes and exabytes of data that there is, and we can use those tokens to train a model, but we can’t compress all of that into a few terabytes of weights, right? Compress into a few terabytes of weights, how to reason with the world, how to make sense of the knowledge.But we have to somehow connect it to something externally that actually holds that like in full fidelity and truth. Um, and that’s the thing that we intend to become. Right? That’s like a very holier than now kind of phrasing, right? But being the search engine for unstructured, unstructured data is the focus of turbo puffer at this point in time.Alessio: And let’s break down. So people might say, well, didn’t Elasticsearch already do this? And then some other people might say, is this search on my data, is this like closer to rag than to like a xr, like a public search thing? Like how, how do you segment like the different types of search?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: The way that I generally think about this is like, there’s a lot of database companies and I think if you wanna build a really big database company, sort of, you need a couple of ingredients to be in the air.We don’t, which only happens roughly every 15 years. You need a new workload. You basically need the ambition that every single company on earth is gonna have data in your database. Multiple times you look at a company like Oracle, right? You will, like, I don’t think you can find a company on earth with a digital presence that it not, doesn’t somehow have some data in an Oracle database.Right? And I think at this point, that’s also true for Snowflake and Databricks, right? 15 years later it’s, or even more than that, there’s not a company on earth that doesn’t, in. Or directly is consuming Snowflake or, or Databricks or any of the big analytics databases. Um, and I think we’re in that kind of moment now, right?I don’t think you’re gonna find a company over the next few years that doesn’t directly or indirectly, um, have all their data available for, for search and connect it to ai. So you need that new workload, like you need something to be happening where there’s a new workload that causes that to happen, and that new workload is connecting very large amounts of data to ai.The second thing you need. The second condition to build a big database company is that you need some new underlying change in the storage architecture that is not possible from the databases that have come before you. If you look at Snowflake and Databricks, right, commoditized, like massive fleet of HDDs, like that was not possible in it.It just wasn’t in the air in the nineties, right? So you just didn’t, we just didn’t build these systems. S3 and and and so on was not around. And I think the architecture that is now possible that wasn’t possible 15 years ago is to go all in on NVME SSDs. It requires a particular type of architecture for the database that.It’s difficult to retrofit onto the databases that are already there, including the ones you just mentioned. The second thing is to go all in on OIC storage, more so than we could have done 15 years ago. Like we don’t have a consensus layer, we don’t really have anything. In fact, you could turn off all the servers that Turbo Buffer has, and we would not lose any data because we have all completely all in on OIC storage.And this means that our architecture is just so simple. So that’s the second condition, right? First being a new workload. That means that every company on earth, either indirectly or directly, is using your database. Second being, there’s some new storage architecture. That means that the, the companies that have come before you can do what you’re doing.I think the third thing you need to do to build a big database company is that over time you have to implement more or less every Cory plan on the data. What that means is that you. You can’t just get stuck in, like, this is the one thing that a database does. It has to be ever evolving because when someone has data in the database, they over time expect to be able to ask it more or less every question.So you have to do that to get the storage architecture to the limit of what, what it’s capable of. Those are the three conditions.swyx: I just wanted to get a little bit of like the motivation, right? Like, so you left Shopify, you’re like principal, engineer, infra guy. Um, you also head of kernel labs, uh, inside of Shopify, right?And then you consulted for read wise and that it kind of gave you that, that idea. I just wanted you to tell that story. Um, maybe I, you’ve told it before, but, uh, just introduce the, the. People to like the, the new workload, the sort of aha moment for turbo PufferSimon Hørup Eskildsen: For sure. So yeah, I spent almost a decade at Shopify.I was on the infrastructure team, um, from the fairly, fairly early days around 2013. Um, at the time it felt like it was growing so quickly and everything, all the metrics were, you know, doubling year on year compared to the, what companies are contending with today. It’s very cute in growth. I feel like lot some companies are seeing that month over month.Um, of course. Shopify compound has been compounding for a very long time now, but I spent a decade doing that and the majority of that was just make sure the site is up today and make sure it’s up a year from now. And a lot of that was really just the, um, you know, uh, the Kardashians would drive very, very large amounts of, of data to, to uh, to Shopify as they were rotating through all the merch and building out their businesses.And we just needed to make sure we could handle that. Right. And sometimes these were events, a million requests per second. And so, you know, we, we had our own data centers back in the day and we were moving to the cloud and there was so much sharding work and all of that that we were doing. So I spent a decade just scaling databases ‘cause that’s fundamentally what’s the most difficult thing to scale about these sites.The database that was the most difficult for me to scale during that time, and that was the most aggravating to be on call for, was elastic search. It was very, very difficult to deal with. And I saw a lot of projects that were just being held back in their ambition by using it.swyx: And I mean, self-hosted.Self-hosted. ‘causeSimon Hørup Eskildsen: it’s, yeah, and it commercial, this is like 2015, right? So it’s like a very particular vintage. Right. It’s probably better at a lot of these things now. Um, it was difficult to contend with and I’m just like, I just think about it. It’s an inverted index. It should be good at these kinds of queries and do all of this.And it was, we, we often couldn’t get it to do exactly what we needed to do or basically get lucine to do, like expose lucine raw to, to, to what we needed to do. Um, so that was like. Just something that we did on the side and just panic scaled when we needed to, but not a particular focus of mine. So I left, and when I left, I, um, wasn’t sure exactly what I wanted to do.I mean, it spent like a decade inside of the same company. I’d like grown up there. I started working there when I was 18.swyx: You only do Rails?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah. I mean, yeah. Rails. And he’s a Rails guy. Uh, love Rails. So good. Um,Alessio: we all wish we could still work in Rails.swyx: I know know. I know, but some, I tried learning Ruby.It’s just too much, like too many options to do the same thing. It’s, that’s my, I I know there’s a, there’s a way to do it.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I love it. I don’t know that I would use it now, like given cloud code and, and, and cursor and everything, but, um, um, but still it, like if I’m just sitting down and writing a teal code, that’s how I think.But anyway, I left and I wasn’t, I talked to a couple companies and I was like, I don’t. I need to see a little bit more of the world here to know what I’m gonna like focus on next. Um, and so what I decided is like I was gonna, I called it like angel engineering, where I just hopped around in my friend’s companies in three months increments and just helped them out with something.Right. And, and just vested a bit of equity and solved some interesting infrastructure problem. So I worked with a bunch of companies at the time, um, read Wise was one of them. Replicate was one of them. Um, causal, I dunno if you’ve tried this, it’s like a, it’s a spreadsheet engine Yeah. Where you can do distribution.They sold recently. Yeah. Um, we’ve been, we used that in fp and a at, um, at Turbo Puffer. Um, so a bunch of companies like this and it was super fun. And so we’re the Chachi bt moment happened, I was with. With read Wise for a stint, we were preparing for the reader launch, right? Which is where you, you cue articles and read them later.And I was just getting their Postgres up to snuff, like, which basically boils down to tuning, auto vacuum. So I was doing that and then this happened and we were like, oh, maybe we should build a little recommendation engine and some features to try to hook in the lms. They were not that good yet, but it was clear there was something there.And so I built a small recommendation engine just, okay, let’s take the articles that you’ve recently read, right? Like embed all the articles and then do recommendations. It was good enough that when I ran it on one of the co-founders of Rey’s, like I found out that I got articles about, about having a child.I’m like, oh my God, I didn’t, I, I didn’t know that, that they were having a child. I wasn’t sure what to do with that information, but the recommendation engine was good enough that it was suggesting articles, um, about that. And so there was, there was recommendations and uh, it actually worked really well.But this was a company that was spending maybe five grand a month in total on all their infrastructure and. When I did the napkin math on running the embeddings of all the articles, putting them into a vector index, putting it in prod, it’s gonna be like 30 grand a month. That just wasn’t tenable. Right?Like Read Wise is a proudly bootstrapped company and it’s paying 30 grand for infrastructure for one feature versus five. It just wasn’t tenable. So sort of in the bucket of this is useful, it’s pretty good, but let us, let’s return to it when the costs come down.swyx: Did you say it grows by feature? So for five to 30 is by the number of, like, what’s the, what’s the Scaling factor scale?It scales by the number of articles that you embed.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: It does, but what I meant by that is like five grand for like all of the other, like the Heroku, dinos, Postgres, like all the other, and this then storage is 30. Yeah. And then like 30 grand for one feature. Right. Which is like, what other articles are related to this one.Um, so it was just too much right to, to power everything. Their budget would’ve been maybe a few thousand dollars, which still would’ve been a lot. And so we put it in a bucket of, okay, we’re gonna do that later. We’ll wait, we will wait for the cost to come down. And that haunted me. I couldn’t stop thinking about it.I was like, okay, there’s clearly some latent demand here. If the cost had been a 10th, we would’ve shipped it and. This was really the only data point that I had. Right. I didn’t, I, I didn’t, I didn’t go out and talk to anyone else. It was just so I started reading Right. I couldn’t, I couldn’t help myself.Like I didn’t know what like a vector index is. I, I generally barely do about how to generate the vectors. There was a lot of hype about, this is a early 2023. There was a lot of hype about vector databases. There were raising a lot of money and it’s like, I really didn’t know anything about it. It’s like, you know, trying these little models, fine tuning them.Like I was just trying to get sort of a lay of the land. So I just sat down. I have this. A GitHub repository called Napkin Math. And on napkin math, there’s just, um, rows of like, oh, this is how much bandwidth. Like this is how many, you know, you can do 25 gigabytes per second on average to dram. You can do, you know, five gigabytes per second of rights to an SSD, blah blah.All of these numbers, right? And S3, how many you could do per, how much bandwidth can you drive per connection? I was just sitting down, I was like, why hasn’t anyone build a database where you just put everything on O storage and then you puff it into NVME when you use the data and you puff it into dram if you’re, if you’re querying it alive, it’s just like, this seems fairly obvious and you, the only real downside to that is that if you go all in on o storage, every right will take a couple hundred milliseconds of latency, but from there it’s really all upside, right?You do the first go, it takes half a second. And it sort of occurred to me as like, well. The architecture is really good for that. It’s really good for AB storage, it’s really good for nvm ESSD. It’s, well, you just couldn’t have done that 10 years ago. Back to what we were talking about before. You really have to build a database where you have as few round trips as possible, right?This is how CPUs work today. It’s how NVM E SSDs work. It’s how as, um, as three works that you want to have a very large amount of outstanding requests, right? Like basically go to S3, do like that thousand requests to ask for data in one round trip. Wait for that. Get that, like, make a new decision. Do it again, and try to do that maybe a maximum of three times.But no databases were designed that way within NVME as is ds. You can drive like within, you know, within a very low multiple of DRAM bandwidth if you use it that way. And same with S3, right? You can fully max out the network card, which generally is not maxed out. You get very, like, very, very good bandwidth.And, but no one had built a database like that. So I was like, okay, well can’t you just, you know, take all the vectors right? And plot them in the proverbial coordinate system. Get the clusters, put a file on S3 called clusters, do json, and then put another file for every cluster, you know, cluster one, do js O cluster two, do js ON you know that like it’s two round trips, right?So you get the clusters, you find the closest clusters, and then you download the cluster files like the, the closest end. And you could do this in two round trips.swyx: You were nearest neighbors locally.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yes. Yes. And then, and you would build this, this file, right? It’s just like ultra simplistic, but it’s not a far shot from what the first version of Turbo Buffer was.Why hasn’t anyone done thatAlessio: in that moment? From a workload perspective, you’re thinking this is gonna be like a read heavy thing because they’re doing recommend. Like is the fact that like writes are so expensive now? Oh, with ai you’re actually not writing that much.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: At that point I hadn’t really thought too much about, well no actually it was always clear to me that there was gonna be a lot of rights because at Shopify, the search clusters were doing, you know, I don’t know, tens or hundreds of crew QPS, right?‘cause you just have to have a human sit and type in. But we did, you know, I don’t know how many updates there were per second. I’m sure it was in the millions, right into the cluster. So I always knew there was like a 10 to 100 ratio on the read write. In the read wise use case. It’s, um, even, even in the read wise use case, there’d probably be a lot fewer reads than writes, right?There’s just a lot of churn on the amount of stuff that was going through versus the amount of queries. Um, I wasn’t thinking too much about that. I was mostly just thinking about what’s the fundamentally cheapest way to build a database in the cloud today using the primitives that you have available.And this is it, right? You just, now you have one machine and you know, let’s say you have a terabyte of data in S3, you paid the $200 a month for that, and then maybe five to 10% of that data and needs to be an NV ME SSDs and less than that in dram. Well. You’re paying very, very little to inflate the data.swyx: By the way, when you say no one else has done that, uh, would you consider Neon, uh, to be on a similar path in terms of being sort of S3 first and, uh, separating the compute and storage?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah, I think what I meant with that is, uh, just build a completely new database. I don’t know if we were the first, like it was very much, it was, I mean, I, I hadn’t, I just looked at the napkin math and was like, this seems really obvious.So I’m sure like a hundred people came up with it at the same time. Like the light bulb and every invention ever. Right. It was just in the air. I think Neon Neon was, was first to it. And they’re trying, they’re retrofitted onto Postgres, right? And then they built this whole architecture where you have, you have it in memory and then you sort of.You know, m map back to S3. And I think that was very novel at the time to do it for, for all LTP, but I hadn’t seen a database that was truly all in, right. Not retrofitting it. The database felt built purely for this no consensus layer. Even using compare and swap on optic storage to do consensus. I hadn’t seen anyone go that all in.And I, I mean, there, there, I’m sure there was someone that did that before us. I don’t know. I was just looking at the napkin mathswyx: and, and when you say consensus layer, uh, are you strongly relying on S3 Strong consistency? You are. Okay.SoSimon Hørup Eskildsen: that is your consensus layer. It, it is the consistency layer. And I think also, like, this is something that most people don’t realize, but S3 only became consistent in December of 2020.swyx: I remember this coming out during COVID and like people were like, oh, like, it was like, uh, it was just like a free upgrade.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah.swyx: They were just, they just announced it. We saw consistency guys and like, okay, cool.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: And I’m sure that they just, they probably had it in prod for a while and they’re just like, it’s done right.And people were like, okay, cool. But. That’s a big moment, right? Like nv, ME SSDs, were also not in the cloud until around 2017, right? So you just sort of had like 2017 nv, ME SSDs, and people were like, okay, cool. There’s like one skew that does this, whatever, right? Takes a few years. And then the second thing is like S3 becomes consistent in 2020.So now it means you don’t have to have this like big foundation DB or like zookeeper or whatever sitting there contending with the keys, which is how. You know, that’s what Snowflake and others have do so muchswyx: for goneSimon Hørup Eskildsen: Exactly. Just gone. Right? And so just push to the, you know, whatever, how many hundreds of people they have working on S3 solved and then compare and swap was not in S3 at this point in time,swyx: by the way.Uh, I don’t know what that is, so maybe you wanna explain. Yes. Yeah.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yes. So, um, what Compare and swap is, is basically, you can imagine that if you have a database, it might be really nice to have a file called metadata json. And metadata JSON could say things like, Hey, these keys are here and this file means that, and there’s lots of metadata that you have to operate in the database, right?But that’s the simplest way to do it. So now you have might, you might have a lot of servers that wanna change the metadata. They might have written a file and want the metadata to contain that file. But you have a hundred nodes that are trying to contend with this metadata that JSON well, what compare and Swap allows you to do is basically just you download the file, you make the modifications, and then you write it only if it hasn’t changed.While you did the modification and if not you retry. Right? Should just have this retry loops. Now you can imagine if you have a hundred nodes doing that, it’s gonna be really slow, but it will converge over time. That primitive was not available in S3. It wasn’t available in S3 until late 2024, but it was available in GCP.The real story of this is certainly not that I sat down and like bake brained it. I was like, okay, we’re gonna start on GCS S3 is gonna get it later. Like it was really not that we started, we got really lucky, like we started on GCP and we started on GCP because tur um, Shopify ran on GCP. And so that was the platform I was most available with.Right. Um, and I knew the Canadian team there ‘cause I’d worked with them at Shopify and so it was natural for us to start there. And so when we started building the database, we’re like, oh yeah, we have to build a, we really thought we had to build a consensus layer, like have a zookeeper or something to do this.But then we discovered the compare and swap. It’s like, oh, we can kick the can. Like we’ll just do metadata r json and just, it’s fine. It’s probably fine. Um, and we just kept kicking the can until we had very, very strong conviction in the idea. Um, and then we kind of just hinged the company on the fact that S3 probably was gonna get this, it started getting really painful in like mid 2024.‘cause we were closing deals with, um, um, notion actually that was running in AWS and we’re like, trust us. You, you really want us to run this in GCP? And they’re like, no, I don’t know about that. Like, we’re running everything in AWS and the latency across the cloud were so big and we had so much conviction that we bought like, you know, dark fiber between the AWS regions in, in Oregon, like in the InterExchange and GCP is like, we’ve never seen a startup like do like, what’s going on here?And we’re just like, no, we don’t wanna do this. We were tuning like TCP windows, like everything to get the latency down ‘cause we had so high conviction in not doing like a, a metadata layer on S3. So those were the three conditions, right? Compare and swap. To do metadata, which wasn’t in S3 until late 2024 S3 being consistent, which didn’t happen until December, 2020.Uh, 2020. And then NVMe ssd, which didn’t end in the cloud until 2017.swyx: I mean, in some ways, like a very big like cloud success story that like you were able to like, uh, put this all together, but also doing things like doing, uh, bind our favor. That that actually is something I’ve never heard.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I mean, it’s very common when you’re a big company, right?You’re like connecting your own like data center or whatever. But it’s like, it was uniquely just a pain with notion because the, um, the org, like most of the, like if you’re buying in Ashburn, Virginia, right? Like US East, the Google, like the GCP and, and AWS data centers are like within a millisecond on, on each other, on the public exchanges.But in Oregon uniquely, the GCP data center sits like a couple hundred kilometers, like east of Portland and the AWS region sits in Portland, but the network exchange they go through is through Seattle. So it’s like a full, like 14 milliseconds or something like that. And so anyway, yeah. It’s, it’s, so we were like, okay, we can’t, we have to go through an exchange in Portland.Yeah. Andswyx: you’d rather do this than like run your zookeeper and likeSimon Hørup Eskildsen: Yes. Way rather. It doesn’t have state, I don’t want state and two systems. Um, and I think all that is just informed by Justine, my co-founder and I had just been on call for so long. And the worst outages are the ones where you have state in multiple places that’s not syncing up.So it really came from, from a a, like just a, a very pure source of pain, of just imagining what we would be Okay. Being woken up at 3:00 AM about and having something in zookeeper was not one of them.swyx: You, you’re talking to like a notion or something. Do they care or do they just, theySimon Hørup Eskildsen: just, they care about latency.swyx: They latency cost. That’s it.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: They just cared about latency. Right. And we just absorbed the cost. We’re just like, we have high conviction in this. At some point we can move them to AWS. Right. And so we just, we, we’ll buy the fiber, it doesn’t matter. Right. Um, and it’s like $5,000. Usually when you buy fiber, you buy like multiple lines.And we’re like, we can only afford one, but we will just test it that when it goes over the public internet, it’s like super smooth. And so we did a lot of, anyway, it’s, yeah, it was, that’s cool.Alessio: You can imagine talking to the GCP rep and it’s like, no, we’re gonna buy, because we know we’re gonna turn, we’re gonna turn from you guys and go to AWS in like six months.But in the meantime we’ll do this. It’sSimon Hørup Eskildsen: a, I mean, like they, you know, this workload still runs on GCP for what it’s worth. Right? ‘cause it’s so, it was just, it was so reliable. So it was never about moving off GCP, it was just about honesty. It was just about giving notion the latency that they deserved.Right. Um, and we didn’t want ‘em to have to care about any of this. We also, they were like, oh, egress is gonna be bad. It was like, okay, screw it. Like we’re just gonna like vvc, VPC peer with you and AWS we’ll eat the cost. Yeah. Whatever needs to be done.Alessio: And what were the actual workloads? Because I think when you think about ai, it’s like 14 milliseconds.It’s like really doesn’t really matter in the scheme of like a model generation.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah. We were told the latency, right. That we had to beat. Oh, right. So, so we’re just looking at the traces. Right. And then sort of like hand draw, like, you know, kind of like looking at the trace and then thinking what are the other extensions of the trace?Right. And there’s a lot more to it because it’s also when you have, if you have 14 versus seven milliseconds, right. You can fit in another round trip. So we had to tune TCP to try to send as much data in every round trip, prewarm all the connections. And there was, there’s a lot of things that compound from having these kinds of round trips, but in the grand scheme it was just like, well, we have to beat the latency of whatever we’re up against.swyx: Which is like they, I mean, notion is a database company. They could have done this themselves. They, they do lots of database engineering themselves. How do you even get in the door? Like Yeah, just like talk through that kind of.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Last time I was in San Francisco, I was talking to one of the engineers actually, who, who was one of our champions, um, at, AT Notion.And they were, they were just trying to make sure that the, you know, per user cost matched the economics that they needed. You know, Uhhuh like, it’s like the way I think about, it’s like I have to earn a return on whatever the clouds charge me and then my customers have to earn a return on that. And it’s like very simple, right?And so there has to be gross margin all the way up and that’s how you build the product. And so then our customers have to make the right set of trade off the turbo Puffer makes, and if they’re happy with that, that’s great.swyx: Do you feel like you’re competing with build internally versus buy or buy versus buy?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah, so, sorry, this was all to build up to your question. So one of the notion engineers told me that they’d sat and probably on a napkin, like drawn out like, why hasn’t anyone built this? And then they saw terrible. It was like, well, it literally that. So, and I think AI has also changed the buy versus build equation in terms of, it’s not really about can we build it, it’s about do we have time to build it?I think they like, I think they felt like, okay, if this is a team that can do that and they, they feel enough like an extension of our team, well then we can go a lot faster, which would be very, very good for them. And I mean, they put us through the, through the test, right? Like we had some very, very long nights to to, to do that POC.And they were really our biggest, our second big customer off the cursor, which also was a lot of late nights. Right.swyx: Yeah. That, I mean, should we go into that story? The, the, the sort of Chris’s story, like a lot, um, they credit you a lot for. Working very closely with them. So I just wanna hear, I’ve heard this, uh, story from Sole’s point of view, but like, I’m curious what, what it looks like from your side.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I actually haven’t heard it from Sole’s point of view, so maybe you can now cross reference it. The way that I remember it was that, um, the day after we launched, which was just, you know, I’d worked the whole summer on, on the first version. Justine wasn’t part of it yet. ‘cause I just, I didn’t tell anyone that summer that I was working on this.I was just locked in on building it because it’s very easy otherwise to confuse talking about something to actually doing it. And so I was just like, I’m not gonna do that. I’m just gonna do the thing. I launched it and at this point turbo puffer is like a rust binary running on a single eight core machine in a T Marks instance.And me deploying it was like looking at the request log and then like command seeing it or like control seeing it to just like, okay, there’s no request. Let’s upgrade the binary. Like it was like literally the, the, the, the scrappiest thing. You could imagine it was on purpose because just like at Shopify, we did that all the time.Like, we like move, like we ran things in tux all the time to begin with. Before something had like, at least the inkling of PMF, it was like, okay, is anyone gonna hear about this? Um, and one of the cursor co-founders Arvid reached out and he just, you know, the, the cursor team are like all I-O-I-I-M-O like, um, contenders, right?So they just speak in bullet points and, and facts. It was like this amazing email exchange just of, this is how many QPS we have, this is what we’re paying, this is where we’re going, blah, blah, blah. And so we’re just conversing in bullet points. And I tried to get a call with them a few times, but they were, so, they were like really writing the PMF bowl here, just like late 2023.And one time Swally emails me at like five. What was it like 4:00 AM Pacific time saying like, Hey, are you open for a call now? And I’m on the East coast and I, it was like 7:00 AM I was like, yeah, great, sure, whatever. Um, and we just started talking and something. Then I didn’t know anything about sales.It was something that just comp compelled me. I have to go see this team. Like, there’s something here. So I, I went to San Francisco and I went to their office and the way that I remember it is that Postgres was down when I showed up at the office. Did SW tell you this? No. Okay. So Postgres was down and so it’s like they were distracting with that.And I was trying my best to see if I could, if I could help in any way. Like I knew a little bit about databases back to tuning, auto vacuum. It was like, I think you have to tune out a vacuum. Um, and so we, we talked about that and then, um, that evening just talked about like what would it look like, what would it look like to work with us?And I just said. Look like we’re all in, like we will just do what we’ll do whatever, whatever you tell us, right? They migrated everything over the next like week or two, and we reduced their cost by 95%, which I think like kind of fixed their per user economics. Um, and it solved a lot of other things. And we were just, Justine, this is also when I asked Justine to come on as my co-founder, she was the best engineer, um, that I ever worked with at Shopify.She lived two blocks away and we were just, okay, we’re just gonna get this done. Um, and we did, and so we helped them migrate and we just worked like hell over the next like month or two to make sure that we were never an issue. And that was, that was the cursor story. Yeah.swyx: And, and is code a different workload than normal text?I, I don’t know. Is is it just text? Is it the same thing?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah, so cursor’s workload is basically, they, um, they will embed the entire code base, right? So they, they will like chunk it up in whatever they would, they do. They have their own embedding model, um, which they’ve been public about. Um, and they find that on, on, on their evals.It. There’s one of their evals where it’s like a 25% improvement on a very particular workload. They have a bunch of blog posts about it. Um, I think it works best on larger code basis, but they’ve trained their own embedding model to do this. Um, and so you’ll see it if you use the cursor agent, it will do searches.And they’ve also been public around, um, how they’ve, I think they post trained their model to be very good at semantic search as well. Um, and that’s, that’s how they use it. And so it’s very good at, like, can you find me on the code that’s similar to this, or code that does this? And just in, in this queries, they also use GR to supplement it.swyx: Yeah.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Um, of courseswyx: it’s been a big topic of discussion like, is rag dead because gr you know,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: and I mean like, I just, we, we see lots of demand from the coding company to ethicsswyx: search in every part. Yes.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Uh, we, we, we see demand. And so, I mean, I’m. I like case studies. I don’t like, like just doing like thought pieces on this is where it’s going.And like trying to be all macroeconomic about ai, that’s has turned out to be a giant waste of time because no one can really predict any of this. So I just collect case studies and I mean, cursor has done a great job talking about what they’re doing and I hope some of the other coding labs that use Turbo Puffer will do the same.Um, but it does seem to make a difference for particular queries. Um, I mean we can also do text, we can also do RegX, but I should also say that cursors like security posture into Tur Puffer is exceptional, right? They have their own embedding model, which makes it very difficult to reverse engineer. They obfuscate the file paths.They like you. It’s very difficult to learn anything about a code base by looking at it. And the other thing they do too is that for their customers, they encrypt it with their encryption keys in turbo puffer’s bucket. Um, so it’s, it’s, it’s really, really well designed.swyx: And so this is like extra stuff they did to work with you because you are not part of Cursor.Exactly like, and this is just best practice when working in any database, not just you guys. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. I think for me, like the, the, the learning is kind of like you, like all workloads are hybrid. Like, you know, uh, like you, you want the semantic, you want the text, you want the RegX, you want sql.I dunno. Um, but like, it’s silly to like be all in on like one particularly query pattern.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I think, like I really like the way that, um, um, that swally at cursor talks about it, which is, um, I’m gonna butcher it here. Um, and you know, I’m a, I’m a database scalability person. I’m not a, I, I dunno anything about training models other than, um, what the internet tells me and what.The way he describes is that this is just like cash compute, right? It’s like you have a point in time where you’re looking at some particular context and focused on some chunk and you say, this is the layer of the neural net at this point in time. That seems fundamentally really useful to do cash compute like that.And, um, how the value of that will change over time. I’m, I’m not sure, but there seems to be a lot of value in that.Alessio: Maybe talk a bit about the evolution of the workload, because even like search, like maybe two years ago it was like one search at the start of like an LLM query to build the context. Now you have a gentech search, however you wanna call it, where like the model is both writing and changing the code and it’s searching it again later.Yeah. What are maybe some of the new types of workloads or like changes you’ve had to make to your architecture for it?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I think you’re right. When I think of rag, I think of, Hey, there’s an 8,000 token, uh, context window and you better make it count. Um, and search was a way to do that now. Everything is moving towards the, just let the agent do its thing.Right? And so back to the thing before, right? The LLM is very good at reasoning with the data, and so we’re just the tool call, right? And that’s increasingly what we see our customers doing. Um, what we’re seeing more demand from, from our customers now is to do a lot of concurrency, right? Like Notion does a ridiculous amount of queries in every round trip just because they can’t.And I’m also now, when I use the cursor agent, I also see them doing more concurrency than I’ve ever seen before. So a bit similar to how we designed a database to drive as much concurrency in every round trip as possible. That’s also what the agents are doing. So that’s new. It means just an enormous amount of queries all at once to the dataset while it’s warm in as few turns as possible.swyx: Can I clarify one thing on that?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yes.swyx: Is it, are they batching multiple users or one user is driving multiple,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: one user driving multiple, one agent driving.swyx: It’s parallel searching a bunch of things.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Exactly.swyx: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, the clinician also did, did this for the fast context thing, like eight parallel at once.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yes.swyx: And, and like an interesting problem is, well, how do you make sure you have enough diversity so you’re not making the the same request eight times?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: And I think like that’s probably also where the hybrid comes in, where. That’s another way to diversify. It’s a completely different way to, to do the search.That’s a big change, right? So before it was really just like one call and then, you know, the LLM took however many seconds to return, but now we just see an enormous amount of queries. So the, um, we just see more queries. So we’ve like tried to reduce query, we’ve reduced query pricing. Um, this is probably the first time actually I’m saying that, but the query pricing is being reduced, like five x.Um, and we’ll probably try to reduce it even more to accommodate some of these workloads of just doing very large amounts of queries. Um, that’s one thing that’s changed. I think the right, the right ratio is still very high, right? Like there’s still a, an enormous amount of rights per read, but we’re starting probably to see that change if people really lean into this pattern.Alessio: Can we talk a little bit about the pricing? I’m curious, uh, because traditionally a database would charge on storage, but now you have the token generation that is so expensive, where like the actual. Value of like a good search query is like much higher because they’re like saving inference time down the line.How do you structure that as like, what are people receptive to on the other side too?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah. I, the, the turbo puffer pricing in the beginning was just very simple. The pricing on these on for search engines before Turbo Puffer was very server full, right? It was like, here’s the vm, here’s the per hour cost, right?Great. And I just sat down with like a piece of paper and said like, if Turbo Puffer was like really good, this is probably what it would cost with a little bit of margin. And that was the first pricing of Turbo Puffer. And I just like sat down and I was like, okay, like this is like probably the storage amp, but whenever on a piece of paper I, it was vibe pricing.It was very vibe price, and I got it wrong. Oh. Um, well I didn’t get it wrong, but like Turbo Puffer wasn’t at the first principle pricing, right? So when Cursor came on Turbo Puffer, it was like. Like, I didn’t know any VCs. I didn’t know, like I was just like, I don’t know, I didn’t know anything about raising money or anything like that.I just saw that my GCP bill was, was high, was a lot higher than the cursor bill. So Justine and I was just like, well, we have to optimize it. Um, and I mean, to the chagrin now of, of it, of, of the VCs, it now means that we’re profitable because we’ve had so much pricing pressure in the beginning. Because it was running on my credit card and Justine and I had spent like, like tens of thousands of dollars on like compute bills and like spinning off the company and like very like, like bad Canadian lawyers and like things like to like get all of this done because we just like, we didn’t know.Right. If you’re like steeped in San Francisco, you’re just like, you just know. Okay. Like you go out, raise a pre-seed round. I, I never heard a word pre-seed at this point in time.swyx: When you had Cursor, you had Notion you, you had no funding.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Um, with Cursor we had no funding. Yeah. Um, by the time we had Notion Locke was, Locke was here.Yeah. So it was really just, we vibe priced it 100% from first Principles, but it wasn’t, it, it was not performing at first principles, so we just did everything we could to optimize it in the beginning for that, so that at least we could have like a 5% margin or something. So I wasn’t freaking out because Cursor’s bill was also going like this as they were growing.And so my liability and my credit limit was like actively like calling my bank. It was like, I need a bigger credit. Like it was, yeah. Anyway, that was the beginning. Yeah. But the pricing was, yeah, like storage rights and query. Right. And the, the pricing we have today is basically just that pricing with duct tape and spit to try to approach like, you know, like a, as a margin on the physical underlying hardware.And we’re doing this year, you’re gonna see more and more pricing changes from us. Yeah.swyx: And like is how much does stuff like VVC peering matter because you’re working in AWS land where egress is charged and all that, you know.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: We probably don’t like, we have like an enterprise plan that just has like a base fee because we haven’t had time to figure out SKU pricing for all of this.Um, but I mean, yeah, you can run turbo puffer either in SaaS, right? That’s what Cursor does. You can run it in a single tenant cluster. So it’s just you. That’s what Notion does. And then you can run it in, in, in BYOC where everything is inside the customer’s VPC, that’s what an for example, philanthropic does.swyx: What I’m hearing is that this is probably the best CRO job for somebody who can come in and,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I mean,swyx: help you with this.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Um, like Turbo Puffer hired, like, I don’t know what, what number this was, but we had a full-time CFO as like the 12th hire or something at Turbo Puffer, um, I think I hear are a lot of comp.I don’t know how they do it. Like they have a hundred employees and not a CFO. It’s like having a CFO is like a runningswyx: business man. Like, you know,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: it’s so good. Yeah, like money Mike, like he just, you know, just handles the money and a lot of the business stuff and so he came in and just hopped with a lot of the operational side of the business.So like C-O-O-C-F-O, like somewhere in between.swyx: Just as quick mention of Lucky, just ‘cause I’m curious, I’ve met Lock and like, he’s obviously a very good investor and now on physical intelligence, um, I call it generalist super angel, right? He invests in everything. Um, and I always wonder like, you know, is there something appealing about focusing on developer tooling, focusing on databases, going like, I’ve invested for 10 years in databases versus being like a lock where he can maybe like connect you to all the customers that you need.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: This is an excellent question. No, no one’s asked me this. Um, why lockey? Because. There was a couple of people that we were talking to at the time and when we were raising, we were almost a little, we were like a bit distressed because one of our, one of our peers had just launched something that was very similar to Turbo Puffer.And someone just gave me the advice at the time of just choose the person where you just feel like you can just pick up the phone and not prepare anything. And just be completely honest, and I don’t think I’ve said this publicly before, but I just called Lockey and was like local Lockie. Like if this doesn’t have PMF by the end of the year, like we’ll just like return all the money to you.But it’s just like, I don’t really, we, Justine and I don’t wanna work on this unless it’s really working. So we want to give it the best shot this year and like we’re really gonna go for it. We’re gonna hire a bunch of people and we’re just gonna be honest with everyone. Like when I don’t know how to play a game, I just play with open cards and.Lockey was the only person that didn’t, that didn’t freak out. He was like, I’ve never heard anyone say that before. As I said, I didn’t even know what a seed or pre-seed round was like before, probably even at this time. So I was just like very honest with him. And I asked him like, Lockie, have you ever have, have you ever invested in database company?He was just like, no. And at the time I was like, am I dumb? Like, but I think there was something that just like really drew me to Lockie. He is so authentic, so honest, like, and there was something just like, I just felt like I could just play like, just say everything openly. And that was, that was, I think that that was like a perfect match at the time, and, and, and honestly still is.He was just like, okay, that’s great. This is like the most honest, ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard anyone say to me. But like that, like that, whyswyx: is this ridiculous? Say competitor launch, this may not work out. It wasSimon Hørup Eskildsen: more just like. If this doesn’t work out, I’m gonna close up shop by the end of the mo the year, right?Like it was, I don’t know, maybe it’s common. I, I don’t know. He told me it was uncommon. I don’t know. Um, that’s why we chose him and he’d been phenomenal. The other people were talking at the, at the time were database experts. Like they, you know, knew a lot about databases and Locke didn’t, this turned out to be a phenomenal asset.Right. I like Justine and I know a lot about databases. The people that we hire know a lot about databases. What we needed was just someone who didn’t know a lot about databases, didn’t pretend to know a lot about databases, and just wanted to help us with candidates and customers. And he did. Yeah. And I have a list, right, of the investors that I have a relationship with, and Lockey has just performed excellent in the number of sub bullets of what we can attribute back to him.Just absolutely incredible. And when people talk about like no ego and just the best thing for the founder, I like, I don’t think that anyone, like even my lawyer is like, yeah, Lockey is like the most friendly person you will find.swyx: Okay. This is my most glow recommendation I’ve ever heard.Alessio: He deserves it.He’s very special.swyx: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Amazing.Alessio: Since you mentioned candidates, maybe we can talk about team building, you know, like, especially in sf, it feels like it’s just easier to start a company than to join a company. Uh, I’m curious your experience, especially not being n SF full-time and doing something that is maybe, you know, a very low level of detail and technical detail.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah. So joining versus starting, I never thought that I would be a founder. I would start with it, like Turbo Puffer started as a blog post, and then it became a project and then sort of almost accidentally became a company. And now it feels like it’s, it’s like becoming a bigger company. That was never the intention.The intentions were very pure. It’s just like, why hasn’t anyone done this? And it’s like, I wanna be the, like, I wanna be the first person to do it. I think some founders have this, like, I could never work for anyone else. I, I really don’t feel that way. Like, it’s just like, I wanna see this happen. And I wanna see it happen with some people that I really enjoy working with and I wanna have fun doing it and this, this, this has all felt very natural on that, on that sense.So it was never a like join versus versus versus found. It was just dis found me at the right moment.Alessio: Well I think there’s an argument for, you should have joined Cursor, right? So I’m curious like how you evaluate it. Okay, I should actually go raise money and make this a company versus like, this is like a company that is like growing like crazy.It’s like an interesting technical problem. I should just build it within Cursor and then they don’t have to encrypt all this stuff. They don’t have to obfuscate things. Like was that on your mind at all orSimon Hørup Eskildsen: before taking the, the small check from Lockie, I did have like a hard like look at myself in the mirror of like, okay, do I really want to do this?And because if I take the money, I really have to do it right. And so the way I almost think about it’s like you kind of need to ha like you kind of need to be like fucked up enough to want to go all the way. And that was the conversation where I was like, okay, this is gonna be part of my life’s journey to build this company and do it in the best way that I possibly can’t.Because if I ask people to join me, ask people to get on the cap table, then I have an ultimate responsibility to give it everything. And I don’t, I think some people, it doesn’t occur to me that everyone takes it that seriously. And maybe I take it too seriously, I don’t know. But that was like a very intentional moment.And so then it was very clear like, okay, I’m gonna do this and I’m gonna give it everything.Alessio: A lot of people don’t take it this seriously. But,swyx: uh, let’s talk about, you have this concept of the P 99 engineer. Uh, people are 10 x saying, everyone’s saying, you know, uh, maybe engineers are out of a job. I don’t know.But you definitely see a P 99 engineer, and I just want you to talk about it.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah, so the P 99 engineer was just a term that we started using internally to talk about candidates and talk about how we wanted to build the company. And you know, like everyone else is, like we want a talent dense company.And I think that’s almost become trite at this point. What I credit the cursor founders a lot with is that they just arrived there from first principles of like, we just need a talent dense, um, talent dense team. And I think I’ve seen some teams that weren’t talent dense and like seemed a counterfactual run, which if you’ve run in been in a large company, you will just see that like it’s just logically will happen at a large company.Um, and so that was super important to me and Justine and it’s very difficult to maintain. And so we just needed, we needed wording for it. And so I have a document called Traits of the P 99 Engineer, and it’s a bullet point list. And I look at that list after every single interview that I do, and in every single recap that we do and every recap we end with.End with, um, some version of I’m gonna reject this candidate completely regardless of what the discourse was, because I wanna see people fight for this person because the default should not be, we’re gonna hire this person. The default should be, we’re definitely not hiring this person. And you know, if everyone was like, ah, maybe throw a punch, then this is not the right.swyx: Do, do you operate, like if there’s one cha there must have at least one champion who’s like, yes, I will put my career on, on, on the line for this. You know,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I think career on the line,swyx: maybe a chair, butSimon Hørup Eskildsen: yeah. You know, like, um, I would say so someone needs to like, have both fists up and be like, I’d fight.Right? Yeah. Yeah. And if one person said, then, okay, let’s do it. Right?swyx: Yeah.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Um. It doesn’t have to be absolutely everyone. Right? And like the interviews are always the sign that you’re checking for different attributes. And if someone is like knocking it outta the park in every single attribute, that’s, that’s fairly rare.Um, but that’s really important. And so the traits of the P 99 engineer, there’s lots of them. There’s also the traits of the p like triple nine engineer and the quadruple nine engineer. This is like, it’s a long list.swyx: Okay.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Um, I’ll give you some samples, right. Of what we, what we look for. I think that the P 99 engineer has some history of having bent, like their trajectory or something to their will.Right? Some moment where it was just, they just, you know, made the computer do what it needed to do. There’s something like that, and it will, it will occur to have them at some point in their career. And, uh. Hopefully multiple times. Right.swyx: Gimme an example of one of your engineers that like,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I’ll give an eng.Uh, so we, we, we launched this thing called A and NV three. Um, we could, we’re also, we’re working on V four and V five right now, but a and NV three can search a hundred billion vectors with a P 50 of around 40 milliseconds and a p 99 of 200 milliseconds. Um, maybe other people have done this, I’m sure Google and others have done this, but, uh, we haven’t seen anyone, um, at least not in like a public consumable SaaS that can do this.And that was an engineer, the chief architect of Turbo Puffer, Nathan, um, who more or less just bent this, the software was not capable of this and he just made it capable for a very particular workload in like a, you know, six to eight week period with the help of a lot of the team. Right. It’s been, been, there’s numerous of examples of that, like at, at turbo puff, but that’s like really bending the software and X 86 to your will.It was incredible to watch. Um. You wanna see some moments like that?swyx: Isn’t that triple nine?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Um, I think Nathan, what’s calledAlessio: group nine, that was only nine. I feel like this is too high forSimon Hørup Eskildsen: Nathan. Nathan is, uh, Nathan is like, yeah, there’s a lot of nines. Okay. After that p So I think that’s one trait. I think another trait is that, uh, the P 99 spends a lot of time looking at maps.Generally it’s their preferred ux. They just love looking at maps. You ever seen someone who just like, sits on their phone and just like, scrolls around on a map? Or did you not look at maps A lot? You guys don’t look atswyx: maps? I guess I’m not feeling there. I don’t know, butSimon Hørup Eskildsen: you just dis What about trains?Do you like trains?swyx: Uh, I mean they, not enough. Okay. This is just like weapon nice. Autism is what I call it. Like, like,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: um, I love looking at maps, like, it’s like my preferred UX and just like I, you know, I likeswyx: lotsAlessio: of, of like random places, soswyx: like,youswyx: know.Alessio: Yes. Okay. There you go. So instead of like random places, like how do you explore the maps?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: No, it’s, it’s just a joke.swyx: It’s autism laugh. It’s like you are just obsessed by something and you like studying a thing.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: The origin of this was that at some point I read an interview with some IOI gold medalistswyx: Uhhuh,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: and it’s like, what do you do in your spare time? I was just like, I like looking at maps.I was like, I feel so seen. Like, I just like love, like swirling out. I was like, oh, Canada is so big. Where’s Baffin Island? I don’t know. I love it. Yeah. Um, anyway, so the traits of P 99, P 99 is obsessive, right? Like, there’s just like, you’ll, you’ll find traits of that we do an interview at, at, at, at turbo puffer or like multiple interviews that just try to screen for some of these things.Um, so. There’s lots of others, but these are the kinds of traits that we look for.swyx: I’ll tell you, uh, some people listen for like some of my dere stuff. Uh, I do think about derel as maps. Um, you draw a map for people, uh, maps show you the, uh, what is commonly agreed to be the geographical features of what a boundary is.And it shows also shows you what is not doing. And I, I think a lot of like developer tools, companies try to tell you they can do everything, but like, let’s, let’s be real. Like you, your, your three landmarks are here, everyone comes here, then here, then here, and you draw a map and, and then you draw a journey through the map.And like that. To me, that’s what developer relations looks like. So I do think about things that way.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I think the P 99 thinks in offs, right? The P 99 is very clear about, you know, hey, turbo puffer, you can’t run a high transaction workload on turbo puffer, right? It’s like the right latency is a hundred milliseconds.That’s a clear trade off. I think the P 99 is very good at articulating the trade offs in every decision. Um. Which is exactly what the map is in your case, right?swyx: Uh, yeah, yeah. My, my, my world. My world.Alessio: How, how do you reconcile some of these things when you’re saying you bend the will the computer versus like the tradeoffs?You know, I think sometimes it’s like, well, these are the tradeoffs, but the three nines, it’s like, actually it’s not a real trade off because we can make something that nobody has ever made before and actually make it work.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: The way I think about the bending trajectory to your will is, um, if you sit down and do the napkin math, right, where you’re just like, okay, like if I have a hundred machines, they have this many terabytes of disc, they have this bandwidth, whatever, right?And you sit down and you just do the like high school napkin math on this is how many qps we should be able to drive to it. Similar to how I did the vibe pricing, right? If you can sit down and do that, and then you observe the real system and you see, oh, we’re off by like 10 x bendings trajectory to your will is like just making the software get closer and closer to that first principle line.The P 99 might even be able to cross the line Right. By finding even more optimizations than, than, than from first principle. So bending the software to your rail is about that, right? Like a hundred millisecond P 99 to um, to S3. I mean now you’re talking like someone really high agency that like goes to Seattle finds CS three team and it’s like, how are we gonna make this 10?You know, like it’s that, that’s not quite what we talk about. Right. But yeah.swyx: What’s the future? Turbo Puffer.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Turbo Puffer started out act one of Turbo Puffer was vector search. That was all we did to begin with Act two of Turbo Puffer is. Is and was full text Search Turbo Puffer today has a fairly start of the state-of-the-art full text search engine.Um, we beat Lucine on some queries, in particular very long queries that we’ve optimized for because those are the text search queries we see today. They’re generated by LLMs or augmented by LLMs. Um, and we see them on Webscale datasets, right? Like someone searching for a very long texturing on all of Common Crawl.We beat Lucine on some of those benchmarks and we expect to continue to beat Lucine on more and more queries. Um, that’s the performance and scale. Turbo Puffer does phenomenally now at full text search performance at scale. What we work on now is more and more features for full tech search. People expect a lot of features with full tech search.And full tech search is still very valuable, right? If you go in and you press Command K and you search for si. Embedding based search might be like, oh, this is something agreeable. ‘cause that seat that’s yes, in Spanish, right,Alessio: an Italian too,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: but in full night search. That’s the prefix of maybe a document of like, you know, these are all the reasons I hate Simon, right?Like this, this is like, that’s a completely different. So that augmentation to like how the human brain works and mapping like data to user is very important, but it’s a lot of features. That feature grind is what we’re firmly on and you will see us just adding to the change log every month, just more and more full tech search features.Um, so we’re like fully compatible and we see we’re seeing people move from some of the traditional search engine onto Turbo Puffer, um, for that. That’s a big focus of Turbo Puffer this year. The other, the other focus of, of Turbo Puffer this year is just on scale. We’re seeing more and more companies that wanna search basically common crawl level types of data sets.Um, both internally a companies and externally at, at a time like Cory, like a hundred billion vectors or a hundred billion documents at once. This is tricky and we wanna make it cheaper and we wanna make it faster. Um, that’s a big focus for Turbo Puffer this year. That’s, you know, we just released a NNV three, which we talked about before.We are working on A-N-N-V-V four and we’re also have planned when we’re gonna do with a and NV five. Right. And then on full Tech search, we’re working on a lot of these features. We’ll be like FTSV three, but it will all roll out incrementally. Um, those are some of the really big features. And then the other thing is, um, our dashboard.Have any of you ever locked into the Turbo Hover dashboard? It’s not very much there. It almost looks like if, um, a founder two years ago just sat down and wrote enough dashboard that there was at least something there, and then other people just sort of added stuff on for the next two, like the, the following two years, and then at some point SSO and other things to just catch up.And it may or may not be have what happened, but adding like, I want PHP my admin back. Like, do you, do you guys remember? Like, it was, it was so good. Right? And I think that that like software hardware integration between the, the, the dashboard of the console of the database and the database itself. Um, I’m, I’m really excited for that.There’s lots of other things, um, that are gonna come out in the next two. Like we talked a bit about some, some pricing and, and things like that, but those would be some of the big hitters. Right Nowswyx: you talk about eras of like turbo profile. I, I just, I have to ask like, yes, there’s the stuff that you’re working on this year, but like I’m sure in your mind you already have the next phase that you’re already thinking aboutSimon Hørup Eskildsen: Act three.swyx: Yes. Act four. Yeah.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Act five.swyx: What I say about that, the candidates, you don’t have to decide. Yeah, but you know,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I, I’ll just say that if you wanna build a big database company, the database over time has to implement more or less every quarry plan. Because when you have your data in a database, you expect it to over time, not just search, but also, Hey, I want to aggregate this column, I want to join this data, all of that.But when you’re a startup, your only moat is really just focus. You have to lay out the vaccine and you have to not get overeager. And I think we’ve seen some of our peers get very overeager and overextend themselves. And what I keep telling the team, I was just having breakfast this morning with our CTO and and chief architect, we were talking about like what we’re most likely to regret at the end of the year is having tried to do too much.Um, and so Act three candidates could be, you know, a bunch of simpler ola queries, right? It could be, um, lending ourselves a little bit more into, we see some people who wanna do traces and logging and things like that. Some very simple use cases. Could be that, right? It could be maybe some time series.Some people are trying to do that, right? Like, there’s lots of different things that you can do with turbo puffer, but for now, the, like, if you’re trying, trying to do not search on turbo puffers, the primary use case, you probably shouldn’t, but we see some customers that are like, oh, um, like at some point Cursor moved like 20 terabytes of Postgres data into Turbo Puffer because it’s like, it’s di it’s there, it works.And these particular query plants we know work well. And so they just moved it all to defer sharding. Um, so we look for patterns like that in what future acts of turban puffer are going to be before firmly doubling down on them. But we wouldn’t, if. Today, if you’re using Turbo Puffer, it should be because search is very important to you.And then we might do a lot of accelerated queries to that, but that should not be the main reason to go to Turbo Puffer at this point in time.swyx: Yeah. Uh, you didn’t mention, uh, one thing I was looking for was graph type queries, like graph, database, graph, uh, queries. Can you basically trivially replicate this with what you already have?Simon Hørup Eskildsen: We see some people doingswyx: that, right? Because you have parallel queries and it’s It’s the same thing.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Exactly. So we see some people doing that, right? Like at the under, like is just a kv, right? And then we expose things on top of it. So we are seeing people do that. And I think, you know, our roadmap is very much just the database that connects AI to a very large amount of data is what the path is to do that in the right order, which is what a good startup is around what is the order to do things in.Our customers are P 99, and they will tell us what they care most about next. And so some of them are doing graphs now, and if they need more graph database features, they’ll be banking our door and we’ll prioritize accordingly.swyx: Tea. Okay. Give us the tea. Uh, this, you, you, uh, you kindly gifted us your favorite tea.This is Yabu Keita Kacha, uh, from the Green Tea Shop. That’s right. Talk about your love of tea.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Yeah, we, we were just talking beforehand about, um, um, um. Caffeine, I think, um, and, uh, especially when I’m on a trip like this to San Francisco, I consume a lot of caffeine. Um, but this is my preferred, uh, preferred caffeine.It’s this green tea. I have an Airtable with 200 teas that I’ve tried over time, over the past, like 15 years, and this one is my favorite. Now, when you drink a tea, um, there’s different, there’s like six different types of tea. I like green tea in particular. I generally prefer Chinese green tea. And I don’t really like Japanese green tea, but this little prefecture somewhere in Japan has specialized in like, they’re like Japanese, but doing it the Chinese way and it’s just phenomenal.But then the interesting thing about the tea world is that all of the different, um, like you can find this particular tea, there’s probably, you know, hundreds of. Places that sell it, but they all go to a different family right on whatever mountain that they have. These like chameleon, ensis, bush bushes on and this woman, Japanese woman in Toronto from the Green tea shop, um, I don’t know, she’s just like, I has found a really good family.‘cause that’s the best one. The best time of years to get this is in a few months when they do the spring harvest. Uh, now it’s like kind of old. Um, it’s just like, I love the spring for the fresh tea, so I hope you enjoy it. But it’s not the right time of year.swyx: It’s out of season. Yeah. I, I, I actually didn’t even know Tea has seasons.This is unsophisticated, but I, I think it, like, it ties in with like, you know, loving maps and being obsessed and being keen on united in everything that you do. Um, yeah. But. That’s great.Alessio: Awesome. Well, as we were saying, we have instant hot water at Kernel. So, uh, MET lover can come by any,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I I have a little ticket where I bring a, uh, where I bring like a little thermometer to like a little thermoworks thermometer.Um, last Friday when we do demos, I have this thing where if there’s not enough demos, then I fill the remaining time talking about something completely ridiculous as an incentive for people to actually demo. And last night in time, I spent 20 minutes do, walking through my air table and going through my entire tea travel kit, including the, the, the temperature monitor.‘cause like Yeah, you’ll show up. There’s only a boiler. You can’t get it to the right. Yeah. You know, you need this at 80 degrees, but anyway. Yeah, sorry.Alessio: Yeah, we have a, we have electric kettle with the temperature thing at home.swyx: I would watch this. You should start a company, YouTube, but it doesn’t have anything about search.It just has and like other brands,Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I don’t think I could talk, but something that I started doing. Do you, um, do you two know Sam Lambert of, of course, planet Scale? Ofswyx: course.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Um,swyx: very outspoken guy.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: I love the guy and we just, um, we just last, like last week we just went on X live and just sat and like shut the s**t for like an hour and I think we’ll probably do that again.Yes. We’ll probably come up there. Well, I don’t know what we’ll call it. Maybe P 99 live or the P 99 pod or something like that.swyx: Um, P pod.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: P pod.swyx: Uh, cool. Well thank you so much for your time. I know you have to go, uh, but this is a, a blast and you’re clearly very passionate and charismatic, so, uh, I I bet you’ll get some, uh, P nine nine engineers outta this podcast.Yeah.Simon Hørup Eskildsen: Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.latent.space/subscribe