Agency Leadership Podcast

The entry-level talent pipeline is being entirely restructured. If agency owners don’t figure out what role a young professional actually plays in an AI-assisted agency, they won’t just struggle to hire today. They’ll have no one to promote in five years. In this episode, Chip and Gini dig into what’s happening with entry-level hiring right now, and why the answer can’t be to stop hiring junior staff altogether. The conversation covers why the old model of routine work is gone, what needs to replace it, and why agencies that don’t solve this problem soon are setting themselves up for failure. The episode opens with an observation from Gini: every presentation she gives to college classes lately surfaces the same anxiety from students. Nobody’s hiring at the entry level because AI can handle the work those roles used to cover — news releases, media lists, social drafts, basic research. How can they find jobs today, and get the on-the-job training they need to move forward in their careers? Chip frames the problem as a junction of circumstances: the rise of AI, economic uncertainty, and a higher education system that hasn’t evolved with the workforce reality. Colleges discouraging AI use while their graduates are about to enter workplaces built around it is, as he puts it, the same mistake as banning calculators in math class. The students coming in aren’t unprepared because they’re less capable, they’re underprepared because the institutions that trained them weren’t keeping up with the times. Chip and Gini agree that entry-level hires aren’t obsolete, but the role must change. Instead of being the lowest rung of the ladder, new professionals need to come in already functioning like managers — just managing AI tools and processes instead of people. That requires more on-the-job training, better-documented processes and SOPs, and a genuine commitment to learning and development that most agencies still don’t have. There’s more than one upside, though. Better documentation and SOPs don’t just help entry-level hires do their jobs — they make your agency more efficient, reduce owner dependency, and, for those who want to sell someday, significantly improve the value of the business. Their closing argument is not to avoid entry-level hiring because the old version of the role is antiquated. Rethink what the role is, invest in the systems that support it, and get comfortable assigning junior people with responsibilities that would have felt premature five years ago. The alternative is a mid-level talent shortage that will be very hard to fix. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “Effectively everybody is starting out as a manager now. It just may be that instead of managing people, you’re managing AI agents or assistants. That’s still a management role.” Gini Dietrich: “If we don’t solve this now as agency leaders and as an industry, there will be nobody at the mid-level to take the jobs in five years. No one.” Chip Griffin: “Don’t decide that you’re not going to hire them and just use the AI for it. Rethink what the role of an entry level hire is in your business because that will allow you to build both for today and for the future.” Gini Dietrich: “I think providing and teaching the young professionals how to use critical thinking skills to orchestrate an army of AI bots is exactly where we should be training them.” Related Managing Gen Z agency employees (and anyone else with less experience than you) ALP 34: How to help junior agency employees grow AI no threat to agency employees learning fundamental skills View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I, you know, I’m thinking about just getting started in the workforce now, and, you know, I’ve, I’ve never had a job in my life and Gini Dietrich: Oh, yeah. Chip Griffin: You know, being so young and green, I, I need to figure out what I’m going to do. Gini Dietrich: You know, it’s funny because I do a lot of zoom in… I zoom into a lot of classes to talk about PESO, and one of the questions I always get, and especially right now is, you know, how am I, what job am I gonna do when I graduate? How am I gonna get a good job? The job market sucks. Then nobody’s hiring for entry level because of AI. Like, what am I gonna do? And that question, I would say, that question has come up. In every single presentation that I’ve done for the last two years. And kids are really concerned about it. And, you know, in Counselor’s Academy through PRSA, we’ve been having the conversation too with other agency owners about, you know, who’s hiring entry level, and if you are, what are you doing? And it’s crickets. Like nobody’s hiring entry level professionals right now, because everything that we would have someone do as a brand new professional or as an intern, AI can do and do it much more effectively. So, you know, news releases and blog posts, drafts and social media drafts and media lists and all that, like, it’s way more efficient to have AI do it. So one of the conversations we’ve been having here is it’s really important to me as an individual to continue to give back to the industry. So how do we create an intern program that’s less about that kind of work and more about giving them the critical skills that they need to be able to orchestrate prompts, integrate AI into their roles. And I think that, I think that’s the path that we are gonna probably go down. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean, it, it’s an important topic. It is, I think there’s a confluence of events that are making it particularly challenging for entry-level workers today. So you’ve got the rise of AI along with economic and other uncertainty coming together. So, you know, there, there’s a number of forces that just make it really difficult. And I think it’s all layered on top of a higher education system that frankly is almost entirely broken. Yeah. And obviously that’s not really something we’re gonna solve here on, on this show, nor is it really the general domain of it. But I think it is, it’s a fundamental challenge that, that most higher education is not really oriented around helping students to find jobs afterwards. Right. That’s, that’s almost an afterthought. Yep. And I’m not saying that it needs to become vocational training. At the same time, you know, four years of pure academics, and discouraging the use of things like AI. A lot of, you know, colleges and universities say, oh no, no, you can’t use AI to complete your papers. Well, that’s not the reality that these students are about to embark upon. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: And so, you know, to me, that reminds me of, you know, years gone by where, oh, you can’t use Wikipedia, you can’t use the internet. You can’t use calculators. I mean, when I grew up, you can’t use a calculator in math class. I mean, these things just, it really is an antiquated system. So you’ve got that as their stepping stone into the workforce, and then they’ve got these headwinds of the economy and AI fighting against them. And so I do think it is, it’s a challenge for the industry, but ultimately it’s a challenge for individual agencies as well. Because even if you don’t want to give back, you have to think about how you’re going to staff your business, not just today, but for the longer term. And historically, agencies have promoted from within quite often, or hired somebody who was an entry level somewhere else. And so at some point, if we don’t figure out how to solve this entry level hire problem, we’re gonna be in a situation where there’s nobody out there for those mid-tier roles that we need to hire still. Gini Dietrich: Right. That’s exactly right. And that’s the, we continue to have that conversation in every single one of my leadership team meetings where there is a section where we’re talking about interns on the path for entry-level professionals. Because you’re exactly right, if we don’t solve this now as agency leaders and as an industry, there will be nobody at the mid-level to take the jobs in five years. No one. So we have to figure this out. Chip Griffin: And I think a lot of it is reimagining what that entry level role is. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: Which means as, as owners, as bosses, we need to think about how we structure those roles. But it also means that in preparation for this, you know, colleges, universities, intern programs also need to be thinking about what skills they’re sending people into the workforce with. And I think I’ve mentioned this previously on the show, I mean, effectively everybody is starting out as a manager now. It just may, may be that instead of managing people, you’re managing AI agents or assistants. That’s still a management role. Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Yep, yep. Chip Griffin: And so, you know, whereas we used to bring people in and, and they would be purely managed and just… They would be the, you know, the functionaries who did what we told them to do. They need to be in a position that they can actually direct resources right out of the gate. And so that, that requires a lot more training before the job, but really a lot more probably on the job training. And we’re awful at training managers at every level within our businesses, including most owners have just awful management skills. And so if we don’t have them at the higher levels, how do we get them to the entry level? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think you’re right. I think we, this has been a challenge forever. I mean, the way I got quote unquote management skills is my boss came to me and said, so and so has just been put on a PIP, and she has 60 days to figure it out, and we’d like to manage you through that. Like, we’d like you to manage her through that process. And I was like…what? Okay. Guess what? She didn’t make it and it was a terrible experience for me, but that’s how they quote, unquote, gave me management training. Right? That’s not management training. That’s not leadership training. That’s like trying to, to figure out what you’re good at or what your strengths are by trying to help somebody who’s failing but doesn’t want the help and doesn’t wanna try to succeed. Terrible idea. All to say, I think you’re exactly right. And I think one of the big things that everyone in general is missing around AI is critical thinking. And I think we, we say, okay, like, oh, this is gonna make me so much faster and I’m gonna prompt it and I’m gonna get it what it needs. And then I forget about actually thinking through, is this right? Is it what I’m trying to accomplish? Is it strategic? Is it going to deliver results for the client? We don’t, we’ve, we sort of are in this world of, oh my gosh, this has made me so much more, so much faster and more productive. We’re losing that critical thinking piece.  And I think providing that and teaching the young professionals how to use critical thinking skills to orchestrate an army of AI bots is exactly where we should be training them. Chip Griffin: I mean, I think ultimately learning and development needs to be a much stronger piece of even the smallest agencies. Yep. And there needs to be a much greater emphasis on the mentorship and coaching and training of everybody at, again, at every level within the business, including yourself as the owner. Yep. And, and if you’re not committed to that, it’s going to be very difficult to successfully integrate new entry level hires of any kind in the future because they do need greater support than ever before. It’s not just, Hey, you know, go through this, you know, list and figure out, you know, which emails are bad or, you know, go find email addresses for these reporters. Right? Or, you know, the, the basic tasks that a lot of people may have been asked to do in the last 10 or 20 years, they’re gone. And so everything requires that higher level of judgment. And the only way that we can expect good results is if we’re providing the assistance from above. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I completely agree.You know, we do, I think we do a fairly good job of internal training because we have the PESO model. So you know, everybody on our team has to go through it and everybody on our team has to be certified and everybody on our team has to keep up with it. Everybody on our team has to understand what I’m producing from a content perspective every week. And you know, one of the things I say constantly to them is, you guys have to be ahead no matter what. You can’t have a client who knows more about it than you do. You can’t have a client who says, well, I saw this in or, I heard this on Gini’s podcast, and you don’t know what they’re talking about. Like you have to be ahead of all of them. And so because of that, we have twice a month internal learning. And I think taking that down a level, and honestly truly, I would actually say that the younger professionals are better at the PESO Model certification outputs than I would say some of the more senior level professionals. Because they don’t have preconceived notions, they don’t have, oh, this is the way I’ve always done things. Right. So they’re much more, they absorb the information better and they output the expected outputs much more effectively, I think. But you know, if you don’t have that kind of training internally, like, how are you teaching them intellectual property and how are you teaching them your processes? And like everybody has a different way of doing work for clients. How are you teaching that so that when they go into AI to get the output they need, they understand this is the output I’m trying to get and this is what it looks like. I think those are the things we have to be thinking about is our intellectual property, our unique way of doing things, and our process. That’s the kinds of things you can be teaching to young professionals. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And look to your point, I think that to the extent that agencies are doing, you know, training and development type things, most of it is focused on the how you do your job bit, right? Gini Dietrich: Yep, yep. Chip Griffin: So you know, how, how do you implement the PESO model? How do you communicate effectively with the press? How do you, you know, write effectively? Those are the kinds of things that most agencies have spent at least some time on. Maybe not enough, but at least some. But it’s, but as you back into the, the things that you’ve also mentioned, processes, you know, tho those are things that don’t get the same level of attention in the training and in the professional development. And then when you get back from that and you’re looking at things like project management or just basic human management, those are not things that have any amount of investment in the vast majority of agencies. And it’s, you know, it’s always shocking to me how many times I go into an agency, you know, for one of my Agency Business Checkups, and I sit there and I talk with them and I understand they’re not doing the regular one-on-one communications with direct reports. Wow. And I, and I know, I mean, this is, everybody knows, this is my pet peeve. Yes. But it is the fundamentals of management. How do you manage somebody if you’re not having regular, ongoing meetings with them? Right. It just, it doesn’t make any sense. But there’s, there’s no culture around that. There’s no culture around communications . And particularly as we’re moving into this era of AI, we need to be much better at documenting processes and, you know, all that because the more we document processes, the better results we can get from the technology, which makes the lives of all of the human employees better. And so we need to be focused on a lot of these things that maybe we could get by without doing in the past, and maybe it just, you know, it was a, a 10 or 15% efficiency hit or something like that. Now it just, it fundamentally just doesn’t work if you’re not focused on how to do these things effectively. So we really need to, again, at all levels, but particularly with those entry level hires, we need to groom them into the roles by providing them with those skill sets, providing them with the documentation around processes, and that’s how we’ll start to get better results more quickly. But that doesn’t really solve the question of how do we continue to hire entry level people at all? Why? Because there’s this big urge for people to say, look, that because AI is so good, we don’t even need entry level hires anymore. Yeah. And I mean, I am of the viewpoint that that is not accurate. That you can still hire people fresh outta college or with just a year or two of experience, but you’ve got to rethink what you’re thinking of them to do. Right. If you think of them in the old terms of doing just that routine, brute force labor. No, there is no role for that. But if you elevate it and you say, look, you know, these kids are coming in and they’ve got something to add, they’ve got value to offer. We just need to perhaps move them along faster in our minds than we might have otherwise. But in their world, they’re not, because they don’t, they didn’t grow up 30 years ago like we did in the industry, so you didn’t know what all of the photocopying and faxing was back then. So you’ve got to be open to putting them into roles that just blow your mind that this is an entry-level responsibility now. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think that’s exactly right. And I think we have a responsibility as leaders to do that. Because to your point earlier, if we don’t, we’re not gonna have employees to hire at the mid-level and then at the senior level, and it’s going to be a disaster. So I think we have our responsibility as leaders to do that. Chip Griffin: Yeah, but we, I mean, yes, we have a responsibility, but ultimately we also need to do what’s right for the business today. Gini Dietrich: Sure, of course. Chip Griffin: And so, so what the, what I think people need to do is to figure out how to bridge that gap. So that you can do what’s right for the business today, while also helping you for the long term. Because as, as much as we all sit here and we want to say, well, we’re doing right for the industry, we’re doing right for our business in three to five years. That’s not a reality that works for most people, particularly on the tight numbers that most smaller agencies are operating with. So, you know, we do need to find a way to make sure that we are getting what we need today from these, and they’re not, I don’t wanna say charity hires, but they’re not, they’re not viewed solely as investments. They have to be something that has the more near term payoff as well. Gini Dietrich: Sure, of course. Yeah. I don’t disagree with that. Chip Griffin: I think that does require a mindset shift for a lot of us who would never dream of, of handing off some of the responsibility that we’re now in a position of needing to hand off to people who have very little experience. But the more that you’ve established proper SOPs and you’ve put together the right systems for checking, verification, approval, et cetera, all of those things, it, you’re in a much better position. And honestly, the use of AI makes it easier to entrust more junior employees. I think a lot of people sit here and say, oh, you know, it’s scary ’cause now we’ve got, you know, junior people with no experience running the AI. Yes. But if as long as you are overseeing the training of the AI, then the AI tends to remain within its lane. The problem you run into with AI is when you don’t give it any guidelines, when you don’t give it any context, when you don’t give it the structure, that’s where it does things like hallucinate and, you know, engage in crazy behavior. But otherwise it does a much better job than humans of remaining within its lane. And so it can actually help the juniors to do their jobs more effectively without the level of risk that some of us may be concerned about. Gini Dietrich: And I will add to that, with your SOPs and your process. Although we talk all the time about building a business that you love and that works for you, there are still going to be some of you who want to sell your business. And having those SOPs in the process really well-defined is going to help your sell price significantly. Yes. Because if you can just hand them the recipe and say, this is how we do things, and this is how we’ve done things for years and it works, and these are the kinds of results, that’s going to help your sell price. Chip Griffin: Yeah. One hundred percent because then you’ve got a buyer who’s looking at something and they’re not just, you know, buying a client roster or short term revenue or something like that. They’re actually, you know, buying something that has sustainable value to it. And particularly in the age of AI, where those SOPs can then become the guidelines and guardrails for the AI tools to utilize. It really is a big differentiator, not just for your sales price, but for today, right? Because if you’ve, if you built those things in there, then you can be a leaner operation. Because the reality is we are going to accomplish more with fewer human headcount. That’s just going to happen. Probably not as efficient as some people dream it might be, but still more efficient than we are today. And so it gives you a lot of flexibility if you are in a position to feed the information and SOPs into the AI tools to get you where you want to go. So it will take a lot of pressure off of you as the owner today, and that opens up possibilities for your future, whether you want to sell or not. Gini Dietrich: Yep, totally. I’m a big fan of SOPs. Chip Griffin: I always have been a big fan of SOPs and checklists and those sorts of things. I think they, they can save your bacon. But you know, today they’re just, you can’t live without them, right? No, totally agree. Totally. They were nice to have process improvements 20 years ago. Today, if you don’t have them, you are really holding yourself back because you can’t use most of these tools capably without them. Gini Dietrich: Yep. 100%. Chip Griffin: So you’ve got to, you can’t fly by the seat of your pants anymore. It really needs that structure. Entry level hires need that structure. AI needs that structure. And if you’re going to have a successful agency for the future, you need to solve for this today. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And truth be told, everyone in your agency needs that structured. Chip Griffin: Everybody. Absolutely. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, everyone does. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. So don’t be afraid of entry level hires. Don’t decide that you’re not gonna hire them and just use the AI for it. Rethink what the role of an entry level hire is in your business because that will allow you to build both for today and for the future. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Chip Griffin: So with that, we will wrap up this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

Eight years and 300 episodes later, Chip and Gini take stock of what the Agency Leadership Podcast has actually been about and where their thinking has shifted since they sat down for lunch outside Wrigley Field and decided to start a show. Chip shares an AI-generated analysis of the 10 most common themes across 300 episodes. Gini distills them into four she considers non-negotiable: communication fixes most problems, know your numbers, focus on particular wins, and the owner sets the temperature. Chip adds that communication doesn’t just solve problems, it prevents them. Ironic, given that probably everyone listening is in the communications business. On what’s changed, Gini has moved from annual retainer-focused planning to quarterly reviews that constantly show results and surface what’s working. She also notes that her advice for navigating a tough business environment now mirrors what worked during the pandemic: find the project work, start with an assessment, and build trust before building a retainer. The biggest evolution for Chip is his position on AI. While he was skeptical a few years ago about the timeline, now he thinks agencies are under-emphasizing it. He and Gini disagree on AI’s limits. Gini believes critical thinking, emotional intelligence, and crisis work still require human judgment. Chip is less certain those guardrails will hold. What they do agree on: AI is turning everyone into a manager, and that puts a premium on skills that were already in short supply. The episode closes with a lightning round covering worst advice agencies still believe, best scary decisions, and prospect red flags including unreasonable expectations and unwillingness to discuss budget. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “Communication doesn’t just solve problems. It prevents a lot of problems. And the irony is, we are all in communications in some fashion or another — and yet we often do a very poor job of it ourselves.” Gini Dietrich: “AI is not going to replace you, but people who know how to use AI effectively will. Those are the things that you have to be thinking about — how do you use it to enhance the work that you’re doing for clients and train your team to do the same.” Chip Griffin: “It’s turning everybody into managers. Even if you were not a manager before, you are now being forced to manage the AI effectively as an employee. And it puts a premium on management skills, which we know is a large area of weakness for most small agencies in general, even before the era of AI.” Gini Dietrich: “I’ve evolved on some things — like growth from more clients to better clients. From hiring the best to building systems and process. Eight years ago if you told me I had to build process, I would not have liked it, but now I understand the importance and value.” Related The six biggest PR business mistakes I’ve made Don’t repeat my biggest mistakes as an agency owner View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it turns out it’s not just another episode, Gini Dietrich: it’s not! Chip Griffin: Of this podcast. Gini Dietrich: It’s very exciting! Chip Griffin: Through the magic of counting, we believe as best, best we can tell Gini Dietrich: We believe, we think Chip Griffin: According to our producer, Jen, that this is episode 300. And so we’re going with it. We’re gonna stamp it and say, this is the 300th episode of this podcast. Gini Dietrich: A big accomplishment. Remember we sat across from at a restaurant across from Wrigley Field and talked about doing this, and here we are. Chip Griffin: I, yeah, that was what, seven, eight years ago now? Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Pre pandemic, for sure. Chip Griffin: Long, long time ago. Yeah. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: I had hair back. No, I didn’t have hair back then. Gini Dietrich: No, you did not. Chip Griffin: Still bald, but, but yeah. Who, who would’ve imagined it would still be going Yeah. This many years later. I mean, it’s crazy. You know, we’re no FIR, you know, we’re not up to episode 4,722 or whatever, whatever Shel and Neville are up to. But, nevertheless, it is an accomplishment. And so we thought we would recognize this milestone and maybe do a little bit of reflection on those 300 episodes. Gini Dietrich: So we were joking with one another that this is probably the most prepared we’ve ever come for one of these episodes. We actually put some, Chip Griffin: I’m fairly certain it is the most prepared. We’ve actually exchanged a few emails. We did a little research. Gini Dietrich: Yes, yes, yes. Chip Griffin: We’ve got Claude involved with it. I mean, we’ve, we’ve put some effort into this one. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. So I think what we both were looking at is a couple of things. One, sort of what has shifted over 300 episodes, which is several years. Right. And we have had many things happen during that time, including a complete shutdown. Where many agencies, if… Didn’t go out of business, got very, very close, myself included. It was a rough time. So a lot has changed. And so we wanna talk about that. We wanna talk about sort of where our own thinking has shifted over the years, especially around AI and some certain things. And then at the end, we’ll do a lightning round. Chip Griffin: Excellent. Well, maybe we can start with some of the things that we’ve talked about a lot over the course of those 300 episodes and, and being, you know, lazy, efficient, whatever you wanna call it, I decided to ask my Microchip assistant, which is backed in part by Claude to assess the episodes that we’ve already done and find the common themes that we talk about a lot. And so there were 10 common themes, and I’ll run through them quickly and then maybe we can react to a few of them, but, not surprisingly, the first one is the importance of good communications. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: I think we do talk about that one a lot. Um, Understanding your financials, obviously we beat that one to death. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: One-to-one meetings, obviously. That is, that is my, Gini Dietrich: yep. Chip Griffin: My pet project to try to get every manager to have one-on-ones with every single one of their direct reports every week. Pricing and positioning, obviously that’s a common topic, not just for us, but everybody in this space. So that one’s not particularly surprising. It always depends, right? That is how we sign off. That should have been top of the list though. It should have been number one. That’s, that’s my biggest issue with, with this Microchip analysis that, it depends, it doesn’t prioritize at top of the list. Build to own, obviously something that I talk about a lot in various forms. Well, haven’t done a good job of always, you know, branding it as such, but focused on that. Talking about the agency owner modeling behavior and that everybody takes their cues. When we talk about agency culture, it’s all about what the, the owner themselves does. Mm-hmm. So, that is important. We talk about the, the idea of having some kind of focus and saying no to things. Not just doing everything that you could, serving every client that you could, but really having a plan. We talk about learning from mistakes. We’ve made a lot of ’em over the course of our careers, but we try to learn from them. And that’s one of the, the big benefits of this show is that we’re able to share those experiences. So hopefully you don’t repeat the same things that we’ve done wrong over the years. And finally, focusing on collaboration instead of competition, not viewing all other agencies and agency owners as the competition or worse, the enemy. And instead trying to figure out what we can all learn. From each other. So those were the key themes that, that were identified, that’s a pretty fair representation of the things that have come up, quite often. But I didn’t know if there were things there in particular that you wanted to react to or perhaps things that you thought of that our friend Claude may have overlooked. Gini Dietrich: No, I don’t think he, I don’t think our friend Claude overlooked anything. I think there are four things, four areas that, of those 10 that I think are incredibly important and those are, you know, even, even as agency owners, we may hate these things. They still are true, so. Communication fixes most problems. So, that transparency, being able to have conversations with your team and with your clients. You know, not being conflict avoidant. Knowing your numbers, of course. So understanding what your revenue versus your gross margin versus your net profit, net margin. And all of those numbers mean. Focusing on particular wins. So again, saying no to some things. And then the owner sets the temperature. So that your team and your clients react to the way that you move things and that you do things and the way you set boundaries of all that. So I think those are the four sort of, to me, big themes that we’ve focused on in the last 300 episodes. Chip Griffin: I would agree with that. And I think that communication doesn’t just solve problems. It prevents a lot of problems. Mm-hmm. And I think that the irony is, we’ve said this before, we are all in communications in some fashion or another, probably if we’re listening to this show, whether you are in PR or marketing or whatever, it’s all about communication. And yet we often do a very poor job of it ourselves and our teams don’t necessarily do a good job of it. And so, you know, we need to really double down and focus on that as much as possible because it will help us to avoid problems or as you say, solve problems. So, I’m glad that that did come out on the top of the list in all seriousness. And not, it depends because I think that that is almost everything that we discuss here, there is at least some element of communications to it. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s exactly right. And, you know, we’ve talked over the years about certain things like being able to, because you are having constant communication with your clients, being able to, you know, for lack of a better term, upsell and extend retainers and get more out of things. And I think right now we’re in, I mean, everybody knows the world is on fire and it’s not good. And I’ve been having lots of conversations with lots of agency owners. Mostly who are friends, not necessarily clients about how their businesses are taking off a big hit. And so I’m sort of repeating the same things that I recommended, and I think you probably are doing the same in 2020 when we all took big hits, which is find the project work, do things that you can do. You know, for, not a retainer, but like small things. So do an assessment first for $5,000 and then build that into some, you know, specific projects sprinkled throughout the year. And then maybe next year you build that into a retainer. But really being open to the idea that you’re not necessarily gonna be able to build on retainer business right now, but you can do the, that project work. And you know, people still need to communicate. People still need to market their businesses. You just have to find creative ways to be able to help them. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, and I think that that’s great advice at all times. Yeah. And, if we think back to the start of this conversation that we had back in 2018, there’s a lot of things that have taken place over the last eight years that we would not have predicted while we were sitting there. No, over that, that, that lovely lunch there. Outside of Wrigley Field. we would never have anticipated a shutdown due to a virus. Most of us would not have imagined a war as widespread as what we’re dealing with now and all of the other things that came along the way too. Those are just two of the biggest things in the last eight years. Yep. And so I think that, you know, always being willing to adapt and be agile and, you know, just talk things through and understand, you know, what’s on the minds of your team? What’s on the minds of your clients and prospects, and trying to find how you can relate to them as, as best as possible and, find ways to solve their challenges, even if it means adapting to the approach that you would typically take. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. I think that’s yes. And, you know, I keep being, I keep thinking about the quarterly review that we like to do inside my business, which is every quarter you’re having conversations that are advancing the next quarter. Right. So we, where I think eight years ago we talked about annual planning and retainers and things like that. And now my own thinking has shifted from that to quarterly planning and ensuring that we continue and truth be told, that has, that shift has provided us so much more opportunity for growth and for building the relationship inside our clients’ organizations because we’re constantly showing results. We’re constantly showing what’s worked. We’re constantly showing what hasn’t worked. And we’re constantly making recommendations for shifting things so that we can continue to grow. That has provided a much bigger opportunity and for me that has been a big shift that I’ve made in the last eight years for sure. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And I think, you know, some things haven’t shifted in the last eight years, right? I mean, some of the things that, that we talk about, you know, do hold up. The format of the show itself has, has held up. We have not made any substantial changes despite all of the, the entreaties we’ve gotten to have guests and all, all of the ridiculous pitches that we get from people. Oh, so and so would be a great guest on your show. You know, I listen all the time. No, you don’t. Gini Dietrich: No, you don’t. No. Chip Griffin: 300 episodes in. Zero guests. Gini Dietrich: Never a guest. Chip Griffin: We have never brought a guest on this show to talk with us. So it hasn’t changed. It’s just the two of us and I think that works out well. So, Gini Dietrich: yep. It’s never changed. Chip Griffin: At least it does for us. And you know, if it happens to work for you as a listener, that’s great too. But as we’ve said before, we kind of do this show more for us than, than anything else. Gini Dietrich: I think that, you just a couple of weeks ago, you had an idea to use AI to respond to those pitches, and I think you should do that. Chip Griffin: Well, actually, I, I, I believe that, that, well, yes, that was one idea. The other idea I had was to respond in sort of bro like fashion to them. Well, actually no, the, you’re right, the AI was for the pitches. Then the other one I was gonna do though was for all these people who pitch on, you know, you can get 300 new leads, leads this month, you know, and I was gonna give the, the, you know, that’s awesome, bro. Or something like that. Forget what, what my, I, I had some line that seemed… Gini Dietrich: Yes, please do that. Chip Griffin: Wacky and cool at the time. Gini Dietrich: Yes, I like it. Chip Griffin: But I hate all of these and I just, my inbox is terrible full of these things. I know. So stop it. Gini Dietrich: Stop it is right. Yes. Chip Griffin: Since all of you people pitching this podcast listen all the time. Listen to me. Don’t do it. Gini Dietrich: Please do not pitch this podcast. Chip Griffin: So I don’t know, have I gotten crankier over 300 episodes? I’m not sure. Gini Dietrich: I don’t think you’ve gotten crankier, but you know, one of the things that has been fun for me to watch personally about you and what you’ve changed your mind on is artificial intelligence itself. Chip Griffin: Yeah. That is certainly an area where I have, I prefer to call it evolved. And, you know, I, as a technologist, I have always been enthusiastic about the concept of AI. I was, I was skeptical a couple of years ago about how fast it would really be able to take hold, and I thought that frankly, a lot of agencies were overemphasizing AI a couple of years ago and being too optimistic about where things would be near term. And now the pendulum has swung, in part because the technology has improved so much, right? I mean, yeah. If, if you look at the various models and you, you run the ones that were ever present two or three years ago. They are nothing like, Gini Dietrich: right. Chip Griffin: What we have with Claude and chat GPT and that today. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: And I was reminded of that recently because I installed a local LLM on one of my machines just to sort of play around with it. And it did the wacky hallucinations because one of the things I always like to do is, as most of us do, I ask for information about myself. And it completely invented an entire narrative about me that had no bearing on reality whatsoever. But it said it really confidently, and I mean, it, it had a lot of detail, but it was just totally made up. And I said, this doesn’t sound right. And it came back with, oh yeah, you’re right. I made that up. Okay. Okay. And this is one of the, I forget which, it was one of the Quinn models, I think. Wow. Oh no, it was, uh, no, it was the… one of the Google ones. But anyway, it doesn’t matter what it was. The point is that it experienced the same problems that we saw a few years ago. And if I was still seeing that today from Claude, I, I would not believe as I do now that agencies are actually under emphasizing the impact Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Of AI. And we’re seeing it evolve at such a rapid pace that I think you really do need to be coming along with it and not continuing to fight it. Which I still see way too much of, in the agency industry. And I think that’s, that is something that, that really hasn’t changed over 300 years. Uh, 300 years. Gini Dietrich: 300 years. Geez. We are older than dirt. Chip Griffin: 300 episodes. I mean, if we, if we look back to 2018, there was a lot of resistance to change in the agency community. Mm-hmm. Back then. It’s just what the change is is has changed. But that general mindset, that has always worried me about the agency community, continues to be there and people getting too excited about the wrong kind of change. We had an episode recently where we mocked the holding companies for, you know, inventing subscriptions. So, you know, the, there are, there are things that have changed, there are things that haven’t changed, but AI is certainly at the top of my list for where my thinking has evolved over the years. Gini Dietrich: And I think you’re right. Like the, I mean, you know, since 2022 I have been all in on AI because I think it’s pretty phenomenal. And I think part of the challenge that we’re seeing right now is that people are being told that their jobs are going to be replaced. And agency owners and agency employees are being told by clients that their AI can do what they can do. And, and truthfully, it can, it can do your news releases, you can do your blog posts, it can do all of those things, right? And it’s actually pretty good. What it can’t do though is critical thinking and emotional intelligence and, you know, ethics and crisis and reputation and those kinds of things. So I believe that AI is not going to replace you, but people who know how to use AI effectively will. So those are the things that you have to be thinking about is how do you use it to enhance the work that you’re doing for clients and train your team to do the same. So that you are continuing to stay abreast and advanced versus getting replaced by an agent, an AI agent, in a year or two. Chip Griffin: See, I guess the pendulum has swung so far for me that I actually disagree with you on most of the things that you had on your list that AI can’t do, um, including the things that people tend to put at the top of their list. Uh, emotional intelligence. If you look at, I mean, there are a lot of people who are effectively using these chatbots as their therapist because it is good. Gini Dietrich: It’s so dangerous. Chip Griffin: Perhaps, however, that’s the reality, right? And so people are perceiving it to be more emotionally intelligent because it’s responding in a way that a lot of our, you know, human friends and acquaintances might not, for whatever reason, right? Because a lot of people, you know, even if you have good emotional intelligence, it’s different than how you actually communicate with somebody about that. Right? So I think that there are, there are a lot of areas where the AI, if not today, in the very near future, is going to be able to do it just as well as most of us in our jobs. And so we need to think about how do we do more? How do we apply that extra human bit on top of it? And I’m not intending to turn this into a whole AI show again. We’ve done a couple of those. I’m sure we’ll do quite a few more. But, you know, I, I think that the fundamentals remain. And when we think about the importance of communication, that is still a piece that at least for now, we have the human touch that we can apply to it, that the AI can’t. And so, you know, we want to make sure that we’re finding ways to weave that in. But a lot of the strategy and details, I mean, that… AI is absolutely coming for your job on that. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I don’t know if I necessarily agree at a strategic level. I think that the… I think that you’re right if the inputs that you’re, you are giving it are correct and strategic and smart, like I’ll give you a really good example. We finished the PESO Model certification a month ago. And it took me a really, it took me about six hours for every lesson and there were, there are 10 to 12 lessons in every module. So it was a significant amount of content creation and thinking for me. And I used AI for some of it. I used it to help me organize it and to help me outline and those kinds of things. But I did the actual work, right? Fast forward to today. I’m working on the recertification, so I took all of the scripts and videos from 2020. I took all of the scripts and videos from 2024 when we did a refresh, and then I took all the scripts and the videos from this new one and I put them all into a folder, and then I use Claude Cowork and I said, here’s what I’m trying to do. I want to show, because the 2026 version has changed so much. I don’t necessarily want people who got certified between 2020 and 2025 to have to go through the whole certification again. But they do have to understand what all these changes have. So I, I prompted it and I, it probably took me about 90 minutes to prompt it the way I wanted it. But the output, because it has so much content, is so good that it’s taking me about an hour a lesson now instead of six. Mm-hmm. So I agree with you that I think it can do those things, but I think it still needs us to provide the correct inputs to understand what kind of output we’re looking for, and really to understand strategy. Because if you don’t understand those things, it’s still gonna give you slop. Regardless. Chip Griffin: Right, right. I mean, effectively, as we alluded to on a recent show, it’s turning everybody into managers, right? Yes. So, even if you were not a manager before, you, now you are being forced to manage the AI effectively as an employee. And, so you need to understand how to do that. Yes. And so it makes, it puts a premium on management skills, which we know is a large area of weakness for most small agencies in general, even before the era of AI. So, before we run out of time, I know that you also had an idea for a, a lightning round. And as I said in our pre-show conversation, I mean that, that basically is what all of our shows are. It’s just a, it’s just a lightning round because we come up with a topic 30 seconds before we hit record. Gini Dietrich: Right, right. Chip Griffin: And neither you nor I have. Any idea, I don’t even know what my opening is going to be. Right. As is painfully obvious on some of the shows. I certainly don’t rehearse the closing out, because a number of those are really crash landings at best. So, let’s, let’s see. I know you did share these, uh, questions with me in advance, but I didn’t really have a chance to look at them. Gini Dietrich: Okay, good. So let’s let that’ll make it better then. Chip Griffin: Let’s see where we go with this. Gini Dietrich: All right. You ready? Sure. Worst, worst advice agencies still believe. Chip Griffin: That you need to grow by adding more clients. Gini Dietrich: Oh, I, I think the not tracking time one, like, everybody’s like, oh, we don’t track time. We don’t bill by the hour. Okay, don’t bill by the hour. But you still have to track time because otherwise you have no idea if you’re profitable by client, by employee. You still have to bill time. Um, best decision you ever made that felt scary at the time? Chip Griffin: Hiring my first employee. Gini Dietrich: Oh, I would agree with that. Yep. Totally agree with that one. A red flag you now spot instantly in prospects? Chip Griffin: Unreasonable expectations. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I’d say like, yeah. If they, and especially if they can’t answer the budget question. Bye. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, to, to me it’s that with the expectations that just my experience has been you really, if, if someone comes in expecting something, it’s almost impossible to talk them back to a reasonable place. So if, if someone’s coming in with wild ideas, you’re gonna get me in the Wall Street Journal next week. Gini Dietrich: Okay. Chip Griffin: Unless they, they immediately capitulate as soon as you point it out. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Probably not gonna work out. Gini Dietrich: No, that’s a good point. All right. And then aside from, this is the last one, aside from what we’ve already talked about with AI an “I was wrong” prediction from early episodes. Chip Griffin: I mean, usually I’m so right. It’s really, it’s really hard to think about what I might be wrong about. I mean, to be honest, AI is really the thing that jumps out for me where I’ve had a clear change of position. I’m not… off the top of my head, I can’t think of anything substantial that I’ve significantly changed. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I don’t think I’ve necessarily changed my mind, but I’ve evolved on some certain things like, you know, growth from more clients to better clients. From hiring the best to building systems and process, which, you know, eight years ago if you told me I had to build process, I would’ve been like, but now I, now I understand the, the importance and value in process. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Gini Dietrich: I still don’t wanna buy it, build it, but. Chip Griffin: Maybe outside of a lightning round, I can go back and look and, and find some things and we can have a future episode where we talk about, you know, other areas where we’ve evolved. Because I think, I think it can be interesting to look at not just what we’ve evolved on, but why. Sure. And oftentimes the why can reveal things. So maybe we’ve, we’ve come up with an idea for, you know, another 300 episodes by doing that. Gini Dietrich: Perfect. Another eight years. Chip Griffin: Another eight years. Man, I’m gonna be old. You of course will stay young. Gini Dietrich: No, of course. Yes. Chip Griffin: Check. Alright. So with that we’ll wrap up this 300th episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. We really appreciate all of you who take time to listen to every single one of those episodes. And please, if you’ve listened to all 300, please drop us a note. We would love to hear from you. Gini Dietrich: We would, yes. Yes. Chip Griffin: I kind of doubt that anyone has listened to all 300, but if you have, we would certainly like to hear from you. If you have ideas for other future episodes, we’re always looking for those as well. Particularly now ’cause we’ve done 300 of them. And so a lot of times we’ll search and say, oh, we already talked about that. Gini Dietrich: We do. Chip Griffin: But the beauty is it’s been over eight years. So we can talk about the same thing that we talked about eight years ago because, you know, a bunch of, you weren’t even agency owners eight years ago. Yep. So that’s, you probably didn’t hear us talk about it. So with that, I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

Most agency owners have read Built to Sell. But many have internalized the wrong lesson from it—fixating on that final chapter where the protagonist drives off into the sunset with a pile of cash, rather than the actual business-building advice throughout the book. The result is owners spending years building businesses optimized for a sale that may never happen, or that won’t deliver the outcome they’re imagining. In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss Chip’s “Build to Own” philosophy as a counterpoint to the built-to-sell mindset. The core principle: focus on creating a business that serves you today, not some hypothetical buyer tomorrow. This doesn’t mean you can’t or won’t sell—it means you stop treating the sale as the primary objective and start treating ownership as the thing you’re optimizing for right now. Chip breaks down the TMRW framework for thinking about what you want from your business: Time (how much you spend and what flexibility you have), Meaning (what gives you satisfaction—clients, team, impact), Rewards (financial outcomes that fund your life today and tomorrow), and Work (the actual role you’re crafting for yourself). Gini shares her decision to retire from speaking despite conventional wisdom saying agency owners should be out there raising their profile—because the anxiety wasn’t worth the marginal business benefit. The conversation tackles the uncomfortable reality that most agency owners counting on a sale to fund their retirement are likely building businesses that won’t command the multiple they’re hoping for. Meanwhile, owners who build businesses that throw off enough cash to fund retirement directly—while also being enjoyable to run—end up with something far more attractive to buyers when and if they do decide to sell. Gini tells the story of a friend who prepared five years in advance for a sale: removing himself from day-to-day operations, hiring a president to build culture, ensuring the business wasn’t founder-dependent. The result? An 18x multiple. But the episode’s point isn’t “here’s how to get a great sale”—it’s that you should make every decision through the lens of “would I still be happy with this if I never sold?” Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “What’s the point of taking on all the risk and stress of owning the business if you’re not getting what you want from it? At that point you are working for the business you own rather than putting the business to work for you.” Gini Dietrich: “If you think about it from the perspective of let’s just pretend you’ll never sell the business, what do you want right now? Write those things down and be really honest with yourself, and then build the business around that. I promise you that if you do those things, you’re gonna be much more attractive to a buyer later.” Chip Griffin: “You should always ask yourself the question, would I still be happy with this decision if I didn’t sell? Because that is candidly the more likely scenario for most people listening to this show.” Gini Dietrich: “If you’re implementing somebody else’s plan, just go work for somebody else. There’s no reason to have all the risk and blood and sweat and tears, just go work for someone else.” Turn ideas into action Define your TMRW priorities this week. Block 30 minutes and write down what you actually want from your business right now across four areas: Time (how many hours, what flexibility), Meaning (what gives you satisfaction), Rewards (what financial outcomes you need), and Work (what role you want to play day-to-day). Be brutally honest—not what you think you “should” want, but what you actually want. This clarity becomes your filter for every business decision going forward. Audit your last five major decisions against your ownership goals. Look back at recent significant choices—a new service line, a hiring decision, a client you pursued, a speaking commitment you accepted. For each one, ask: “If I never sell this business, would this decision still make sense for what I want from ownership?” If more than half don’t pass that test, you’re optimizing for the wrong outcome. Calculate whether you’re funding your future or gambling on it. Open your financials and answer three questions: Are you paying yourself a competitive salary (what you’d make if you took a job elsewhere)? Are you contributing to retirement at the level you’d need to retire comfortably without a sale? Is the business profitable enough to sustain both? If the answer to any is “no,” you’re counting on a sale rather than building a business that works for you today—and that’s a bet most owners lose. Resources Chip’s Build to Own philosophy Related Build to Own: Getting More From Agency Ownership Build for TMRW to get more from your agency Adopting the Build to Own Mindset The Build to Own mindset Building the agency you want to own (featuring Chris Williams) View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And I think we’re gonna talk about construction today, Gini. Gini Dietrich: We are. Chip Griffin: We’re gonna talk about building. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Structure. I, Nope, I can’t do it. Sorry. Chip Griffin: It’s my job to torture things. You’re, yes, you’re, Gini Dietrich: yes. I, Chip Griffin: you are too grounded in reality. I’m the one who’s off in Never Never Land making up weird stuff. So, yes. No, we are not talking about about construction, I think. Gini Dietrich: No, but we are talking about building. Chip Griffin:  into all sorts of zoning violations and probably code compliance issues and all that. Don’t listen to us on that stuff. Gini Dietrich: We’re not touching construction. Chip Griffin: We are talking instead about my Build to Own concept because it’s something I’ve talked about a little bit over the years, but haven’t really focused on well enough. So I wrote an article about it recently to try to underscore a little bit about my overall philosophy about how you ought to go about running your agency. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think it’s a really good topic because you know, there’s the book called Built to Sell, which I think probably most of us have read, which the idea is that you’re building process and procedure to be able to sell your business someday. But what does that look like if you don’t sell or that’s not part of your goal, or you’ve built a lifestyle business, or you’re in the middle of it, and you’re like, Ugh, how much longer do I have to do this? Right? And so changing your mindset to be around built to own is, I think a really good one. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And look, I mean, I, I think that there is, like everybody else I have read Built to Sell, I think it is a great book. There’s a lot of good advice in there. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: I think, you know, my issue with it is that a lot of people don’t read all of the advice. And so instead they think about the title of the book. Right. And so it’s, it is very much, a build to sell is, or Build to Own rather, is a definite counterpoint to built to sell because it does two things. First of all, instead of looking in the rear view mirror as built to sell does with the word built instead of build. And also it helps you to understand that you need to think about what’s going on with your business today. Gini Dietrich: Right? Right. Chip Griffin: Yes. Maybe someday you’ll sell, but if you focus just on the maybe someday. You may have a miserable existence until then. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Yeah. Chip Griffin: And too many people read Built to Sell and they dwell on the last couple of pages of the book. Yep. Where it makes it seem like the owner has driven off into the sunset and is sitting on some beach in Tahiti sinking drinking mai tais for the rest of their lives. That is an unlikely scenario. Yes. For most agency owners. We’ve talked about that before. So fundamentally the same things that you want to do in order to be appealing to a buyer, typically, you’re gonna make it more appealing to own as well. But it’s changing your mindset to think about first and foremost, what you want from the business. And, and starting from there, instead of saying, what might somebody else want? Why should I, you know, I wanna get into this particular sector because that’s a hot sector that someone wants to buy, or I wanna focus on growing revenue because if I grow it by, you know, 50% a year, someone’s gonna be excited about it. But what does it mean for you today? Gini Dietrich: Right. Yeah, I think it’s a really good question to ask yourself and, and I think we’ve also talked about this too, that it changes, right? It may not, it may not be the same that it is right now. I mean, in 2012, I remember looking ahead to 2020 and thinking like 2020, the year 2020, like perfect vision, here’s the things that I want to have accomplished. And we all know what happened in 2020, right? Just the, right? So things change. Things… you know, the world happens, the economy happens. Sectors change. Your needs change, your desires change, all of those things. And I think it’s really important to say, what is it that I want to build right now? And be okay with the fact that it may evolve in three years. It may evolve in five years, and that’s okay. Yes. But what is it that we’re trying to build right now and, and how can I be satisfied with that? And I think you raised some really good points in your article, which I will not steal your thunder on, but there’s some really good points in there about how to think through that and figure out what it is that you want right now. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and I think as you say it, it can change regularly. So you ought to be reviewing this regularly. You shouldn’t assume that whatever you decided two years ago is still the right direction because your life changes, the world changes, you learn more. All of those kinds of things. And, so what I typically encourage people to do is, is to think about tomorrow. And I spell that of course, in the, the weird texter way of TMRW because you know, I am, I am that hip and, and that’s, you know, typically how I, I text people too. Sure. At least whenever I can figure out how to even type something into my, my phone because I, I’m terrible at that. But it’s it. So it’s focusing on four things. It’s focusing on time, meaning, rewards, and work. So in other words, you need to think about how much time do you want to spend in the business? What kind of flexibility do you want in that time? What kind of things do you want to carve out additional time for. You need to think about meaning what, you know, how are you gonna get satisfaction from the business? Is it the kind of clients you’re working with, the people that you’re working with? Is it building something that people are proud of and say, wow, this guy did a great thing. What is it that gives you meaning out of it? Rewards pretty self-explanatory, but you know, it’s the financial aspect of it. Are you getting what you want from it? Is it setting you up for your future that you’re trying to have? Whether that’s paying for your kids’ education or funding your retirement or what have you. And you should focus on the business today doing that, not some magical, mystical, possible sale somewhere down the road that may or may not happen. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And then finally, you need to think about the work that you’re doing because ultimately, if you wanted to do work that you were miserable about, you could go work for somebody else. At least for a while, you probably make some more money than what you would make off of your own business. So you need to make sure that you’re crafting a job, a role that you actually like. So if you think about those things in terms of how you want to build something that you’re happy to own, that’s a good way to start by thinking about the TMRW mindset. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think it’s really important to do that. You know, it’ll be two years in August that I decided I was retiring from speaking. And, not because of any reason other than it makes me super anxious. It, I get really, really, I get super, super nervous. I get really anxious leading up to it. It’s fine once I’m on stage and it’s fine after, but leading up to it is way too much for me. And I discovered through data that I actually make more money when I don’t leave my desk that often. Right. So while it does help with awareness and all those kinds of things. I’m significantly more productive when I sit at my desk. So I said to myself, from a rewards perspective, what is it that I want to do with the business and with my life? And one of those things was giving up speaking. And you know, to this day, people ask me to speak and I, it’s, it’s hard for me to say no, but I do, because I’ve said to myself, in myself inside my head. You’re retired from speaking. Now I’ll do it virtually and you know, all those things. But getting me up on stage, I’m just not gonna do it anymore. Yeah. And that was a reward for me that I wanted to have, and that, you know, it’s been almost two years. It still remains today. So that may change. I may change my mind, you know, later and want to get back out there again and do it again. Maybe. Maybe not, but, to your point, that’s one of the things that I think about is, you know, how is, how is my life structured right now and what do I want to change so that I’m happier doing it every day? Chip Griffin: Well, and that’s a perfect example of the Build to Own approach because it really allows you to craft something that makes sense for you, even though it violates almost every quote unquote rule that experts would tell you, right? Yes. I mean, most expert advisors, yes, will tell you, you know, as a business owner, as an agency owner, you need to be out there speaking and yes, raising the profile for the business and all of these things. And look, that works for some people. But if you don’t like it, if you don’t want to do it. You shouldn’t. You should think of other ways that you can grow the business. Yep. Same thing with, you know that you will read, including in Built to Sell and elsewhere, that you should get yourself outta day to day client work. Okay. I mean. If that’s what you want, great. If it’s not what you want, figure out how to structure the business so that, that you can do that client service work ’cause that’s what fulfills you. I mean, really, and I know I say this a lot, but what’s the point of taking on all the risk and stress of owning the business if you’re not getting what you want from it? Right. I mean that’s just, yes. It makes no sense. Yes. ’cause at that point you are working for the business you own. Yep. Rather than putting the business to work for you. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s such a good way to look at it, because if you think about it from the perspective of let’s just set aside that you will, let’s just say pretend you’ll never sell. You’ll never sell the business. You know, we don’t know what’s gonna happen to it in the future, but that’s off the table. What do you want right now? Is it the ability to do client work? Is it the ability to work on innovative projects? Is it the ability to sort of think about the future and what that might look like for your business? Is it to make a crap ton of money? What is it that you want? Write those things down and be really honest with yourself, and then build the business around that. And I promise you that if you do those things, you’re gonna be much more attractive to a buyer later than you are if you’re trying to build a business to sell it. Chip Griffin: Exactly. I mean if, if you’re able to build a business that throws off enough cash that you’re able to fund all of your current needs, to fund your retirement and all of those things, that’s the kind of business that a lot more people are going to want to buy. Yeah. If you’re counting on that maybe someday sale to be your payday that allows you to actually retire or those kinds of things. And I see a lot of owners who are in this position. You probably have built something that you’re not gonna get that much of a premium on. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And so you actually are helping your future sale by collecting more money from the business today. You’re not actually holding back your opportunities, you’re creating more of them. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think it’s really important to remember that. And you know, I have had several situations with friends who own agencies who have come to me and said, Hey, I’m thinking about putting the business up for sale. I need to be out in the next year. And you’re like, you can’t…. This… what? And have done no preparation for that other than that’s like, I want to retire and that’s the end goal is to sell the business. And there’s no profitability in the business. They haven’t paid themself a fair wage. Like there’s no preparation for it. You know, one of the biggest lessons I learned is I sit on several boards and in 2019, I sat on a board that sold right before the pandemic. And leading up to that five years before he put the business up for sell, he knew he was gonna put the business on the market in five years. He started to look for, first of all, he started to look for ways to take himself out of the business, so it was no longer founder led, and he put key personnel in place. Three years out of selling the business, he hired a president who was building the culture and that the team relied on so that that person would be sold with the business. And he did all of these things to create process and procedure so that when he put the business up for sale, it was not about him as the founder, it was about the business. And he got… I think he ended up with like 18 times multiple because of it. But he spent five years doing that, right? And he built a team and he built key personnel and he ensured that those people had the right contracts in place and the right salaries in place that they would then go with the business when he sold it. And he, of course, he had a little bit of an earnout, but it wasn’t as significant as if he were the, as if it were founder led. So there were all these things he did that he did to prepare for that for five years. So my team and I look at every 90 days, we do a 90 day sprint and we look at what process is broken right now and how can we fix that. But at the same time, I’m not doing anything that I don’t enjoy. I’m focused on the things I want to do and I’m building the business around it. Will we put the business up for sale someday? Maybe. I dunno, we’ll see. But right now we’re building a business that I enjoy owning. We’re having a blast. Chip Griffin: Right. Well look, I mean, you know, as I say over and over again, because I, the biggest objection I hear when I talk about Build to Own is, geez, you know, I, but, but I wanna sell someday. I, I, you know, I don’t wanna do this forever. Okay. Build to Own in no way precludes it. Gini Dietrich: Right? Right. Chip Griffin: And it, all I’m saying to you is that instead of making selling your focus, you should focus on the ownership piece because you know that you own the business. You know that you will own the business. You’re not sure if you’re going to sell. If you are, you certainly do want to take the steps to prepare that your friend did. And, and the more, time that you have to prepare and think about and structure the business, the more likely you are to have success. But it’s still not a sure thing, right? You may not get right the kind of offer that you’re looking for, you may not get the terms that you’re looking for. Yep. And so you should always, even if you’re thinking about selling one day and you want to generally position for that, you should always ask yourself the question, would I still be happy with this decision if I didn’t sell? Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: Because that is the, that is candidly the more likely scenario for most people listening to this show. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and I think it’s reality. Your, your advice to focus on things as a business owner, which are funding your retirement. Making a livable salary. Making a salary that, you know, if the business were bought, you would, they have to see that you’re making a salary that would compete with, like if you went to get a job, would you make $80,000 a year? Would you make $30,000 a year? No, you would probably make mid to high six figures. You have to be able to pay yourself at that level. You have to have profitability. Like those things are the things that you should be focused on. And if you do that and you never sell your business, you’re still okay. Correct. Because you’ve funded your retirement and you’ve paid for the things that are going to support your lifestyle. Chip Griffin: Correct. And you weren’t miserable in the process. I mean, you know, look, it’s often said that life is short. You don’t know what the future holds. And so, you know, are you happy to spend five or 10 years being miserable because you think right, that maybe someday, maybe someday you’ll be able to sell for some big number. Gini Dietrich: No. No. Chip Griffin: Why would you do that? No, and and I’m not, I’m not some woo woo, Oh, you know, you, you have to be happy and everything, and Gini Dietrich: You’re definitely not. Chip Griffin: It’s all sunshine and unicorns and all of that. I mean, no, no. I mean, even if you follow my, my Build to Own approach, you’re still gonna have some. Really miserable days as a business owner. Gini Dietrich: Yep, yep. Chip Griffin: It’s not all going to be fun. Mm-hmm. You have to do a lot of things you do not want to do. You do not enjoy. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: However, those should be in the minority and they certainly shouldn’t be because you’re doing something with the sole objective of maybe someday selling. Gini Dietrich: Right. Yeah, that’s absolutely true. It’s funny you say that because I had a miserable Friday last week and today is Monday when we’re recording this and I feel much better. But yeah, I mean, you’re not, I, I love my job. I love what we do. I love what we’re building, but it’s not all rainbows and unicorns. That’s life. Chip Griffin: That’s life. It’s entrepreneurship. It’s, it’s the risk and the stress that I talk about. It’s, it’s all of those things. But you can still structure it in a way. Yes. That gets you more of what you want. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: And is not following someone else’s formula for success. Right. Or what someone else might be interested in potentially buying. Yes. Is figuring out what works for you? What gives you what you need and want from the business? And I think if you’re, if you spend your time looking at those and evaluating all of the decisions you make in your business, whether that’s, you know, what kinds of clients you’re pursuing, what sectors you’re working in, the service mix that you provide, the people that you hire to be around you, how you compensate yourself, all of these decisions should be looked at through that frankly rather selfish lens. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: Of what you want as an owner. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Chip Griffin: Because it, it will not only make you happier, it will likely make you have a better business. Because if you’re just implementing someone else’s plan, you’re not gonna be as committed to it as something where you can understand, I’m doing this for me, I’m doing this for my family. I’m doing this to get what I want from my business. Gini Dietrich: And if you’re implementing somebody else’s plan, just go work for somebody else, Chip Griffin: right? Gini Dietrich: There’s no reason to have all the risk and flood and sweat and tears, like just go work for someone else. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, it’s, it is really, if you’re going to be an owner, you have to have an owner’s mindset. Yeah. You can’t have an employee’s mindset as an owner because that you, you’ll just, you’ll fail and you will feel miserable at the same time. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: That’s not a good combination. Gini Dietrich: I, I think, I mean, I’m sure Jen will include the link to your article in the show notes. It was, it’s really well done. I read it and I was like, we need to talk about this because it’s, it really helps you change that mindset from building a business to sell it and versus building a business to own it. And I think you still can absolutely, to your point, still sell it someday, but you’ll be much happier if you’re building a business to own it right now. Chip Griffin: Imagine if the, if the sale is the gravy, right? Imagine if you’ve already stockpiled your nest egg and you know, I don’t have to sell. I mean, first of all, that takes the pressure off you. You can negotiate a much better deal if you’re not forced into doing it. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And we all know this, right? I mean Yep. Anytime you can walk away from a deal, you’re likely to get better terms. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Chip Griffin: So, so if you can say, look, I’m confident. Now take it or leave it, buddy. This is, this is what you’re gonna have to pay me for this business. This is what you’re gonna have to give me in terms of an earnout and an employment agreement and all of those kinds of things. And if you don’t, that’s fine. Yeah, I’m still good. I can walk away. Good. Right. Imagine how much more powerful that is. And imagine now you’re thinking about your sale as something that allows you to do something maybe extra special with your retirement as opposed to just having a comfortable one. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: I mean, I’ll take that any day of the week. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Chip Griffin: With that, I hope, hope you had a good day of the week by listening to us. That was kind of a tortured wrap up, but you know, it is what it is. We constructed some good ideas for you today. I dunno, we just, we, Gini Dietrich: no terrible. No, no. Chip Griffin: We’re just gonna let this go here. So with that, we’ll wrap up this episode. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich Chip Griffin: and it depends.

The PESO Model has been guiding smart communications strategies for over a decade, but the tactical landscape underneath it keeps shifting. In the latest evolution, Gini and her team have completely revamped the PESO Model Certification to address how AI and large language models are fundamentally changing visibility in 2026. In this episode, Chip interviews Gini about the newly updated certification and what’s changed in how organizations should think about paid, earned, shared, and owned media. The conversation centers on “visibility engineering”—the intersection of owned and earned media where LLMs are scraping information and making decisions about who appears in AI-generated answers. Gini explains why owned media remains the foundation (without content on your own properties, there’s nothing to demonstrate to journalists, creators, or LLMs what you’re about), but the recommended path has shifted from owned-then-earned-or-shared to a more deliberate owned-then-earned-then-shared-then-paid sequence. This evolution reflects how AI systems verify information by comparing what’s on your website against what credible third parties say about you. They also tackle the persistent “X is dead” headlines that plague the industry—whether it’s websites, PR, or press releases. Chip and Gini push back hard on the notion that websites are becoming irrelevant, pointing out that your owned content hub becomes more valuable in an AI-driven world, not less. It’s your source of truth, the fuel for custom AI assistants, and the foundation that persists even as social platforms come and go. The conversation covers practical questions about implementing PESO in smaller agencies, whether you need to be full-service to deliver on all four pillars, and how the certification meets communicators at different experience levels—from college students to seasoned professionals. If you’ve been treating PESO as just four columns of tactics rather than an operating system for communications, this episode clarifies what you’re missing. Key takeaways Gini Dietrich: “Owned is still the foundation because without your own thought leadership, your subject matter experts, your content, all of that, there’s nothing to demonstrate to a journalist, a creator, a newsletter author, a podcast host, what you’re about and how you’re different.” Chip Griffin: “In a world where you’re able to start customizing your own versions of LLMs for your internal or external audiences, huge value exists there. So having that central repository, I think is actually of increasing value today, not decreasing.” Gini Dietrich: “We are in a zero click world. And so how does that affect the work that we’re doing? It’s really how are we helping to inform humans, search engines, and LLMs so that we’re showing up no matter if it’s a human looking, if it’s Google surfacing information or if it’s an AI surfacing information.” Chip Griffin: “Having your content in a world where you’re able to start customizing your own versions of LLMs for your internal or external audiences, huge value exists there. That would not be possible without a thousand plus articles and videos because that is the fuel for that tool.” Turn ideas into action Audit where your owned content actually lives. Open a spreadsheet and list every place you’ve published content over the past two years—your website, Medium, Substack, LinkedIn articles, guest posts, anywhere. Mark which platforms you own versus rent. This awareness exercise reveals how vulnerable your content strategy is to platform changes and algorithm shifts. Map one content piece through all four PESO pillars. Take your next webinar, speaking engagement, or major thought leadership piece and plan the full PESO path before you execute: owned content on your site summarizing key insights, pitching earned media opportunities based on those insights, creating social distribution that doesn’t just promote but educates, and identifying where paid amplification makes strategic sense. This forces you to think about PESO as an integrated operating system rather than disconnected tactics. Dive deeper into the PESO Model. Visit spinsucks.com/peso-model-certification to learn more about the newly updated certification program. Whether you’re looking to formalize your team’s approach to integrated communications or simply understand how the model has evolved for the AI era, the certification provides a structured path from foundational concepts through practical implementation. Resources For more on the PESO model, visit the Spin Sucks website Related Agencies need the PESO model now more than ever Has the PESO Model become a necessity for modern agencies? How PR agencies can use the PESO Model to improve client retention How to allocate your client’s PESO budget Wake up or get left behind: AI is forcing your hand View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I, I’ve heard that you might be involved with this thing, I think it’s called the PESO Model. Gini Dietrich: Oh, maybe. Chip Griffin: You may you use that, right? That’s, yeah. Just you found it and you said this should, this is something we should use. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Something I just found and thought we should use it. Yeah. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Yeah, no, in all fairness, you are in fact the inventor of the PESO model, which is widely used throughout the PR and communications world, and it has been evolving with the times as we all should be. And so I, I think we have some, some new news that you’ve been sharing around the PESO model. Gini Dietrich: Oh, well, according to a couple of people on the internet, it has not evolved at all because they are not able to use Google or AI to say, has the PESO model evolved since 2014? Perhaps. It has. And you know, all of last year I spent a good amount of time, especially on the blog and the Spin Sucks podcast, talking about visibility engineering, which is where owned and earned media meet because that’s where the LLMs are getting their information, right. We’re finding more and more that they’re scrubbing websites and then they’re comparing that to earned media, to the things that media not, and not just traditional media, newsletters, podcasts, things like that, that they’re saying about the brand and looking to see if they match. And if they do, then they’re appearing. You’re, you start to appear in AI answers. So I spent a good amount of time last year exploring that and understanding that and, you know, using the blog and the podcast as my sandbox to learn more about it and teach the industry about it and understand what was happening. As part of that, I said, okay, it’s time to do a big refresh of the certification. Because we did the certification in 2020 and then we did a small update to it in 2024. And this one is a completely revamped certification that shows you how exactly AI is… how exactly you’re showing up in AI answers and doing that via the PESO model. So we start with owned, we go to earned, then we use shared and paid. There’s integration and measurement and it brings it all together. So I’m actually, I said to my team, not to brag, but this is really good. It’s a really, really good course. And we hired, last March I hired a chief learning officer who has helped me build it into something that’s more effective for an adult learner. So it’s really specific to, you know, you can get the work done while you’re also a working professional. So she has done a really nice job of bringing that element into it. It has AI prompts so that you can use the PESO AI that we built to help you do the work. And it’s, it’s pretty good. I’m, I’m really proud of it. I’m really proud of the work we did. Chip Griffin: Well, I mean, it really is something that, that fuels most communication thinking in smart organizations today, whether that’s agency side, client side, that sort of thing. Now it’s not always as well understood it should be. Some people just throw the term around. A little bit willy-nilly. Yes. You know, without really thinking it through. Of course there are other people who claim that it’s also their invention, which is, you know, but we’re not gonna go down that path ’cause we’re staying positive today, Gini. Gini Dietrich: Yes, yes. We’re gonna stay positive. Positive, yes. Chip Griffin: But I think to, you know, to me, one of the things that, when I look at the PESO model, I think is, you know, it’s great because it is an overall set of principles and framework that is effectively timeless when it comes to communications. And then it’s the implementation side of it. The tactical side of it. That’s the piece that needs to evolve. The, I mean, the four letters are still the same. It’s not like you, right? Yes. The evolution has not been to change PESO to something else. Gini Dietrich: Nope. Chip Griffin: It, it’s really just saying. Okay. All of these different components, the paid, earned, shared, and owned have evolved over the last 10 or 15 years. Yeah. And so how we implement it needs to adapt to that. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. It’s very much, I mean, when we did it in 2020, it was very much like how, how you’re using content marketing really to inform your contributed content through earned and then sharing that link through, through social and then putting some money behind it to boost it. And that was, you know, that was six years ago, and it worked back then, right? It’s still, social still worked from the perspective that you could post a link and people would follow that path back to your website. Well, people don’t do that anymore. You know, we are in a zero click world. And so how do, how does that affect the work that we’re doing? So, you’re right, the paid, earned, shared, and owned doesn’t change. That model stays the same. It’s the pieces on top that, that have evolved. And so now it’s really how are we helping to inform humans, search engines, and LLMs so that we’re showing up. No matter if it’s a human looking, if it’s Google surfacing information or if it’s an AI surfacing information, we show up no matter what. And it’s really, that’s what it’s really about is how do you engineer that visibility? How do you make sure that you’re showing up in the right places at the right time to the right people? Chip Griffin: And so if you’re, if you’re thinking about leaning into the PESO model for your communications needs. You know, where should you be starting today? Is it owned? Is it social? Is it, you know, how, has it changed? If at all from that standpoint over the last decade? Gini Dietrich: Owned is still the foundation because without anything, without your own thought leadership, your subject matter experts, your content, all of that, there’s nothing to demonstrate to a journalist, a creator, a newsletter author, a podcast host, what you’re about and how you’re different. So that’s the foundation. There’s nothing do than to just create that distribution layer through shared, and there’s certainly nothing to amplify through paid. So that’s always been the foundation. There are of course exceptions if you’re selling widgets or your, you have an Amazon store or something like that, then I would probably start with paid, but that’s the exception to the rule. For the most part, most organizations need to start with owned. And we used to say that then you could go to earned or shared. Depending on your goals. Now we’re saying actually the best path for engineering that visibility is owned, then earned because you need that credibility, so the LLMs can cite that information. Then you build your distribution layer, and then you amplify your work. Chip Griffin: So I, think what I’m hearing you say is that websites are not dead despite all of these, you know, headlines that you like to see people’s, Gini Dietrich: No, they are not. Chip Griffin: The, the rise of LLM, websites are dead. You’re not even gonna need a website in five years. Gini Dietrich: No, we still need a website because otherwise the LLMs don’t have anywhere to get the information about you. Humans don’t have any, I mean, we still go to websites. We might not go, you know, a direct click like we used to, but we still go to websites to get information. So yeah, you still need a website. I hate the, such and such is dead. The PR, there’s one that PR is dead right now. Like PR is not dead. Come on. You can’t do, you’re not going to show up in AI answers if without PR. So PR is not dead. Chip Griffin: No, the X is dead has always been one of my pet peeves when it comes to, I mean, that, that really is something that, that took off during the start of the social media era. Yeah. Whether it was the press release is dead. This is dead, whatever. I mean, and, you know. Just, it’s not true. I mean, we, you know, I always used to say back 20 years ago, you know, people used to say that radio was dead. Radio is still very much around, and radio is still around in certain forms. I mean, when I’m driving around, I listen to radio. Yes. Is it terrestrial radio? No, it’s satellite radio. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: But guess what? It’s still radio. Gini Dietrich: It’s still radio. Yep. Chip Griffin: Right. Podcasts are effectively radio. Transmitted in a different fashion. Yep. And so, you know, I think that the people need to understand that the underlying technology may evolve, some of the tools will evolve, but Gini Dietrich: absolutely Chip Griffin: the, principles and concepts will largely remain the same. Doesn’t mean that everything stays. Yeah, certainly some things, you know, do go away, or become so small that they’re irrelevant, but you know, I think we need to be careful about those things. And, to me, with a website, to me, the other value is it still is a great place to be the central repository of all your information as all of these things change around you. I mean, if, for the last 10 or 15 years you’ve been using your website as your content hub and housing at least your most important, most valuable stuff there, it doesn’t matter whether medium or substack comes or goes. It doesn’t matter whether people move from X to LinkedIn to whatever. Yep. You still have a source of truth for your own information, which becomes even more valuable in the world of AI and LLMs. Gini Dietrich: That’s exactly right. I mean, we, have preached for years, we’ve all preached for years that you should not build an audience or content on rented land because to exactly your point, the rented land goes away. X has become something that nobody wants to hang out on. We’ve moved to LinkedIn. Lots of people have moved to Substack. So, those pieces will change. So don’t, I think that theory, philosophy stays the same. Because you have, you are building something that you own, that you control, and allows you to control that narrative and be, tell the story the way you want to, and then you rent that out to other places versus building on rented land where it will go away. Chip Griffin: Well, and I think that there are a lot of avenues that are opening up to organizations with, you know, particularly those that have more content already, but also by building it up. And I think in particular of the AI assistant I built on the SAGA website. Mm-hmm. Yep. That would not be possible without a thousand plus articles and videos and that kind of stuff because that is the fuel for that tool. Yep. And, and if I was trying to do it based off of, see what you can find that I’ve posted on LinkedIn or Twitter or things over the years, and it’s just not gonna work. And so having that in a world where you’re able to start customizing your own versions of LLMs for your internal or external audiences, huge value exists there. So having that central repository, I think is actually of increasing value today, not decreasing. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, that’s actually a really good point. I was talking to a client last week and she said that one of the goals for 2026 is they have 17 different brands. So each brand has its own chief executive. And what she has, what she wants, the comms team for each of those brands to do is build an AI agent that helps them with that CEO’s voice. And they can’t do that without content. They can’t do it without the executives’ speeches, webinars, podcasts, appearances, media relations, like they have to have all of that content, blog posts that they’ve written or articles that they’ve written for the website. They have to have that to be able to feed that and train the AI. So without it, they don’t have any, to your point, fuel that will allow them to do that. So 100% that is accurate. Chip Griffin: So as, we’re thinking about implementing PESO properly, so not just, I heard the term, it sounds cool. I made a list of four columns of each, and I just started just chucking stuff in there. Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: I mean, how do I go about learning it the right way? And I’m, you know, we’re not turning this into a QVC Gini Dietrich: Are you throwing me a softball? Chip Griffin: you know, show here. But at the same time, I, think it is valuable for people to understand what is out there in a more formal sense, to understand and, adopt the process for their own organization. Gini Dietrich: I mean, obviously the PESO model certification is the place to get the information because one of the, one of the things we see is exactly what you said, that people create their four columns and they say, okay, well we’ve got some content and we’re doing some media relations, and we’re throwing that on social. And all right, we’ll put some, budget behind some of our organic social, and we’ve got the PESO model. And that’s, not the PESO model, that’s a list of tactics. So what the certification does is it walks you through exactly. There’s this, a scientific layer to it. It walks you through that scientific layer that allows you to embed an operating system, that let that foundation of your work so that as things evolve and the industry changes and your business goals change, you’re able to change the tactics on top of it. We also hear, well, gosh, my, you know, my clients can’t afford to do a full PESO program, so what should I do? And in fact, they can afford it. You’re just thinking about it as this huge, overwhelming thing. And so the certification walks you through if you’re a solopreneur or a small agency, that walks you through if you’re a midsize, and it walks you through if you’re a large corporation or an enterprise organization. And I will say for small organizations, which are most of our listeners. It’s really about how do you take one piece of content and repurpose it. So let’s say that you do a webinar. How do you take that webinar and create some content around it that, from what the webinar was, not promoting it, not trying to get registrations, but saying, okay, here’s what we learned in the webinar. So we’re gonna create some how-to or thoughtful content for that. And then we’re gonna take pieces of the webinar and we’re gonna break it down for social posts. And then yeah, we’re gonna put some money behind some of it. And we’re also gonna go to some of our trade media and we’re gonna say, Hey, listen, our subject matter expert or our chief executive just did this webinar and here’s what they talked about. Are you interested in some contributed content? So it allows you to do that in a really interesting, effective way without you having to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars or have a large team. You can do it without a lot of resources. I mean I built the PESO model framework for my agency and we were not, at the time, a big agency. Mm-hmm. So that’s what it was built for, is to make it so that we could do more with less and do more with less resources and, less time and less people and less budget and all the things. So it is definitely, definitely feasible. So that’s what it teaches you how to do. Chip Griffin: So I, you know, I think one of the other concerns that, some particularly smaller agencies have when it comes to PESO is not just the, clients and their budget, but, their own capabilities and, you know, so is it realistic for a small agency to be able to, you know, deliver? We, we talk all the time about being careful about being a full service agency. Yep. But to, implement PESO, do you have to be a full service agency? Gini Dietrich: You do not. That’s the other thing that the certification walks you through is if you have the capability yourself in house. Or you yourself can do it. Then here’s how you do it. If you are building it for an external team or an external agency, here’s how you do it. If the client has a team that can do it, here’s what you’re going to do to build the strategy and the creative brief, and then you’ll hand it off. But here’s what is expected for. Here’s, what’s expected of you to deliver, and here’s what the expectation is for the output from the client team or the agency team, whatever happens to be. So it has those three paths depending on where you are. So yeah, that’s a really good point. It doesn’t the, certification expects you to, build the plan and the strategy, and then based on where you are, it meets you where you are. So if, you have a team that you can execute or that you can delegate it to, great. If your client has a team you can delegate it to great. But it meets you where you are so that you don’t have to be the expert, you don’t have to be the strategist, you don’t have to be the influencer, but you do have to build the plan and the strategic path to be able to help the team get there. Chip Griffin: Mm-hmm. Um, and I mean, let’s talk through some of the logistics around the certification. I mean, how long does it take to get certified? Is this, you know, I, do a weekend course and I’m done. Is it an ongoing process? Is it, you know, is it the equivalent of a master’s degree? I gonna spend two years with, you know, countless hours? What exactly does it look like? Gini Dietrich: It’s built to be done in eight weeks, but I will tell you that most working professionals do not do it that fast. I would say most working professionals do it between 10 and 12. Each module is, so you have the intro earned or owned, earned, shared, paid, integration, measurement, and then the operating system and how to embed that. So it’s eight modules and each module has between 6 and 12 lessons, and each lesson is like 8 to 10 minutes. So, you know, you’re looking at an hour to an hour and a half of learning of content and then you have the exercises for each lesson. So I would venture to guess it’s, you know, if you use the AI prompts effectively, that are in there, it’s between two to five hours a week probably. Chip Griffin: And, who is the certification best for? Is it someone who’s got, you know, prior experience, is this, Hey, I’m fresh outta college and I want to have this so I can use it to, you know, improve my, my job prospects. You know, what, kind of experience are they expected to have, or knowledge are they expected to have coming in? Gini Dietrich: It’s, we built it for any level of expertise. The interesting thing about it, of course, if you have more experience, it’s easier for you to grasp the concepts and implement it quickly. But we also use the certification in a hundred plus universities and the kids, the students go through it. So we find that they… It’s different for them because they have to use a fake business where you can use your own business or you can use your client’s business, right? They have to kind of create the business as they go. But it’s really fun to see what kinds of things come out of that. So it’s built for every level of expertise. It’s a different way of thinking about communications. So it’s not like you have to have 20 years of experience or only a year of experience. It’s because it’s teaching you something new. Chip Griffin: Gotcha. And is the, are the certifications only at the individual level? Are there agency certification programs? What exists in that frame? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, we’ve, that, that’s a great question that we evolved too. So it used to be, it was individual based and now we’ve built it so that you can put a team through it, you can put the whole agency through it. The certification itself goes with the individual because it comes through Syracuse University. So it is, so if you have a team member that you wanna put through it, if they leave the certification goes with them. So you cannot say that you do the PESO model anymore if they leave. So we always recommend, I mean, you know, I’m an agency owner, so I’d love to see the agency owner themselves go through it, but I also know that that’s not always doable. So, but if you want the certification to stay with your agency, that’s the way to do it. Chip Griffin: Mm-hmm. And it, you know, I guess as, we’re winding up here, you know, where do you see the, PESO model headed in, the years, you know, in front of us? I would assume it will continue to evolve. Does your crystal ball tell you anything about, you know, what that evolution will look like? Gini Dietrich: It will continue to evolve. I have not looked into my crystal ball yet because I’ve been so heads down deep into developing the content for this that I haven’t been able to forward think yet, but I’m very much looking forward to being able to go back to my regular job and, start to think about the future, but I’m not there yet. Chip Griffin: I, I, guess that’s fair. I guess asking you for the, next version before this version is even fully out in the wild may, Gini Dietrich: I’ve literally been like blinders on, heads down, creating all of this content. Chip Griffin: I had to try at least, you know, see if I could get the inside a scoop on where the industry is headed so that I can… Gini Dietrich: Ask me in a month. Chip Griffin:  I can get there before everybody else, or at least before everybody else accept you. Alright. If someone, wants to learn more about the PESO model or the certification or any of that kind of stuff, where’s, the best place for them to go for that? Gini Dietrich: I feel like we just did an interview. Chip Griffin: Well, that, that was not the intent going, but it made the most sense to me. And I, you know, me, I, follow the thread wherever it feels like it goes. That’s fair. Some of these were questions I actually didn’t know the answer to, so I thought I would ask them. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Alright. spinsucks.com. There’s a PESO model certification page. I think it’s actually PESO-model-certification. Chip Griffin: You love your hyphens on that website. Gini Dietrich: I don’t know why it’s that way. That’s just what they do. Chip Griffin: Oh, well. Gini Dietrich: Ask our web firm. Chip Griffin: I’m, sure people can end up finding it. Gini Dietrich: PESO model certification. Spin sucks.com. Chip Griffin: There you go. Excellent. Well, I, think this was good information and I think we, you know, we do talk a lot about the importance of, you know, agencies continuing to adapt. Particularly in, in this age of AI. And, if we are standing still, you know, we are gonna lose our jobs to AI and the other enhancements and improvements that are out there. I think this is one of many ways that you can, make sure that you are not getting left behind and, so, certainly something that most agencies should be at the very least learning more about, if not actually directly implementing within their businesses. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Yeah, and, like I said, it has AI baked in, so if you’re still on the fence about AI, it’s a good way to dip your toes in the water. Chip Griffin: And if you’re still on the fence on AI, why? Gini Dietrich: It’s so much fun! Chip Griffin: It really is. It can be a time suck at times, but it’s, yeah. It’s also fun and, frankly useful. I mean, I think that’s the… But anyway, that when this is not an AI show, this is a PESO show. Gini Dietrich: Right. So, right, right. Chip Griffin: We, will come back and bash you on AI again in the future. Not, you, but you the listener. You the listener. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Alright. With that we’ll wrap up this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

No more excuses. No more waiting to see how things play out. AI has moved past the experimental phase, and if you’re still treating it like a nice-to-have rather than a fundamental shift in how your agency operates, you’re already falling behind. In this episode, Chip comes out swinging with a wake-up call for the agency community: the ground is shifting faster than most are willing to admit, and the window for meaningful adaptation is closing. Gini backs him up with examples of how AI has progressed from an intern-level tool to something that can genuinely replace mid-level work—if agencies don’t evolve what they’re selling. They dig into the practical reality of training AI tools to work like team members, not just one-off prompt machines. Chip explains how he uses different platforms for different strengths—Claude for writing, Gemini for competitive intelligence, Perplexity for research, and ChatGPT as his strategic baseline. Gini shares how her 12-year-old daughter creates entire anime worlds through conversation with AI, demonstrating the power of treating these tools as collaborators rather than search engines. The conversation covers what clients actually want to pay for in 2026 (hint: it’s not social posts and press releases), how to build AI agents trained on your specific expertise, and why the process of training AI forces valuable clarity about your business. They emphasize that this isn’t about slapping the “AI-powered” label on your services—it’s about fundamentally rethinking what value you deliver and how you deliver it. If you’ve been sitting on the sidelines waiting for the AI dust to settle, this episode is your warning: there is no settling. There’s only evolution or extinction. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “If you do not change, it will replace you. It will take away your revenue. If you keep doing the same thing that you’re doing today, it absolutely will destroy you.” Gini Dietrich: “We are no longer relying on our agencies to do the work. We are relying on agencies to teach us what’s coming ’cause we don’t have the time.” Chip Griffin: “AI is not just changing how your business operates, it’s changing how other businesses operate. It’s changing how the media operates. And so it is truly a disruptive force that we need to be thinking about.” Gini Dietrich: “When somebody says to me, oh, I just can’t get it to output what I need, I’m like, user error. You haven’t taken the time to train it.” Turn ideas into action Train one AI tool this week like you’d train an employee. Pick the platform you use most (ChatGPT, Claude, or Gemini) and spend 30 minutes having an actual conversation with it about your preferences—tone, structure, what you hate (like emojis), and what outcomes you need. Feed it examples of your best work and tell it explicitly when outputs miss the mark and why. The tool won’t improve with one-shot prompts; it needs training just like a new hire. Map what clients will actually pay for in 2026. Block one hour to list every service you currently bill for, then honestly assess which ones AI can now handle at a competent level. Don’t lie to yourself—if ChatGPT can draft solid social posts or press releases after reviewing past examples, that’s table stakes now. Identify what remains valuable: strategy, teaching clients to use these tools, implementing new processes, or solving problems AI can’t touch. This clarity will drive every business decision you make this year. Test AI on something personal before rolling it to client work. If you or your team are intimidated by AI, start with meal planning, fitness routines, managing schedules, or drafting birthday card messages. Use it for something low-stakes where you can experiment with conversation-style prompting without pressure. Once you see how it responds to feedback and training in a personal context, you’ll understand how to apply the same approach to agency work. Resources LinkedIn post by Vineet Mehra that Gini references Related Agencies succeed through consistency and evolution AI myths agencies must avoid View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, you know, we started the new year off on a note where we weren’t gonna yell at our audience, but I feel like it, it’s time to yell at our audience again. I’ve taken too much time off from being Mr. Nice guy. Gini Dietrich: Okay, well this shall be interesting. I can’t wait. Chip Griffin: I, and this is, it’s partly for our audience, but it’s really for the overall agency community, particularly PR and marketing, PR and communications generally, even outside the agency world. I’m just, I’ve become kind of wound up lately because I think that the industry as a whole, and perhaps even some of our listeners are not acting swiftly enough to understand just how much the ground is shifting beneath them. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And how much serious evolution needs to take place. Really over the next year. I mean, I don’t think, I don’t think we’re on a long-term horizon here. I think that too many have waited to change too long in many ways, and AI is now becoming sort of the, the real trigger point for it, but it’s bigger than that. I think a lot of the, the PR space in general has lagged behind a lot of what’s going on in the business community, and AI is just the fist to the face that’s, that’s gonna separate out the people who are gonna survive. Gini Dietrich: The fist to the face. Wow. All right, then. Chip Griffin: I told you I was a little wound up on this one, so, Gini Dietrich: okay. So everybody’s gonna be punched in the face. Got it. Okay. Chip Griffin: If that’s what it takes to wake up and pay attention. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, no, I, yeah, I totally agree with you. And, you know, I have been gungho on AI for going on four years now. And it’s, it’s my second love for sure. But it is time to pay attention to how it is changing things and what it’s going to do to your business, to your teams, to how you deliver work, all those things. Chip Griffin: I mean, look, a lot of the PR world has been focused in recent years on figuring out how to keep their head above water and survive, and hang on to the old ways of doing things. And this predates the explosion of AI in recent years. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: But, what the explosion of AI has done is really, it has drawn the attention of particularly clients to the issue. It has drawn the attention of employees. It, and it is still being ignored. And I think we’ve hit that point where we can no longer ignore it. I think we’re at the point with a lot of these AI tools where they are now both accessible and reliable enough that there’s no reason not to accelerate your pace of change using AI as a tool to get there. And we’ve talked about this before, and I, and I’m not changing my point of view, AI is not the end in itself. The AI is just a way to get there. So don’t mistake what I’m saying here for saying that, you know, you just need to adopt AI for the sake of AI. You still need to find problems to solve first and AI will help you on a lot of them, but you need to be finding those problems. You need to be thinking ahead to what do clients really want from you? What is going to help them to get the results they’re looking for? It can’t be about how do I use AI to make myself a little bit more efficient in what I’m currently doing. Because everything is changing. And we need to be on top of that. Gini Dietrich: I read an article on LinkedIn probably in November, and I’ll see if I can find the link to include in show notes. But it, it was from a chief marketing officer at a Fortune 10 company, and what he said was this: if I were an agency wanting to work with clients in 2026, here are five things I would do. And I can’t remember all of them, but one of them was teach organizations, teach marketing and comms teams how to use AI to be more effective. Implement your process, whatever it happens to be. Because we are no longer relying on our agencies to do the work. We are relying on agencies to teach us what’s coming ’cause we don’t have the time. And that has stuck in my head because I think that’s right. I think that. Yeah, sure, agencies will always, or big companies, will always need arm extra arms and legs to do the work, but that’s not the work that most of us want to be doing. Right? We don’t wanna be writing the social posts and the news releases. We wanna be part of the strategic conversation. We wanna be part of the of helping to move an organization forward. And if we can do that by teaching our clients how to use AI to be more effective, to be more productive, to accelerate their work, and I know everybody’s worried it’s going to replace me, it’s going to, it’s going to reduce our number, our billable hours, whatever happens to be. I think there’s a huge opportunity here for you to reframe how you’re helping clients and using AI to be able to do that. Chip Griffin: Yeah, but I would be very direct with listeners. If you do not change, it will replace you. It will take away. Gini Dietrich: That’s fair. That’s totally fair. Chip Griffin: Your revenue. Gini Dietrich: Yes, it will. I totally agree with you. Yeah. Chip Griffin: So, you know when we say that you know that AI is not gonna destroy your agency, that’s only if you evolve. Gini Dietrich: That’s fair. Chip Griffin: If you keep doing the same thing that you’re doing today, it absolutely will destroy you. I don’t care whether you’re an employee or a business or whatever, if you are an employee and you think that AI isn’t gonna take your job in a year, it is If you don’t evolve, that’s and figure out how to use it for yourself. Gini Dietrich: Yep. That’s totally fair. Chip Griffin: And we need, everybody who’s listening needs to wake up to that fact. It requires a huge mindset shift. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Because AI can write your news releases, it can write your social posts. It can do all of that stuff that Chip Griffin: not only can, Gini Dietrich: we don’t wanna do anyway, Chip Griffin: It should. Yeah. Because it has evolved enough in the last year that the quality is there now. I used to describe AI as an intern. It is moved beyond the intern stage. Yep. It is at a minimum a junior employee, and if you train it well for your organization, it can be even a mid-level employee or perhaps even in some cases more than that. But this training piece is important too, because part of the problem that a lot of people run into in my experience is they, they hop onto the AI tool and they just say, Hey, write this press release on this subject. And I look at it, oh, this is rubbish. It still requires a lot of work. You know what? It absolutely does. The same thing would happen if you hired an employee off the street who knew nothing about you and your clients, and you said, write me a press release. The result would probably be pretty similar to what the AI came up with. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: But once that employee starts writing more press releases and you start telling ’em, this is the tone of voice we use, this is the style we use, these are the facts we use. You feed more information into it. You explain your preferences. When you’re using these AI tools, you need to just be direct with it. Don’t accept the first response. Explain as you would with an employee what you want done differently. If you do that, it will tailor the outcomes. Even simple stuff. Like I’ve told them, stop showing me damn emojis. I don’t wanna see an emoji in any response because I think it’s wildly unprofessional and I hate them. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: So guess what? I don’t see them anymore. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: I’ve asked it to tighten up the spacing on it so that I can see more on a screen. It does that. And that’s even before you start telling it, you know, this is the structure of a paragraph that I like. You start feeding in information. I’ve fed in a thousand articles and transcripts and that sort of stuff into the platforms. It now can speak like me reliably to the point where I don’t know if what it’s giving me is a quote from something I’ve written before or original text that it’s come up with that just speaks so clearly in my voice. Gini Dietrich: I love that it will say, it will give, usually gives me three options. One is like strategic leadership, like C-level blurbs. That with Gini-isms or like smart, funny, witty blurbs. And then I can decide, and usually what I do is I take a combination of the three, but it has gotten to the point where if it actually calls it Gini-isms, that like it knows how I talk, it knows how I write, it knows how I coach, it does it knows all of those things. And it has created an opportunity for me to say, yeah, this probably, we probably shouldn’t have some Gini-isms in this ’cause it’s really professional. Or, we can include more because it’s more me talking to a screen or whatever happens to be. So it’s gotten to that point. It’s, when you train it, it’s very, very good. Chip Griffin: Well, and you can even tailor those recommendations. So one of the things that, that I’ve told it is it’s fine to give me multiple options, but give me your recommendation. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And when you do that, don’t give me a whole lot of backup on the alternative. So spend your time explaining why you’re making the recommendation. That’s fine. But then, you know, if it’s, let’s say it’s a title or something like that, you know, give me three or four other options, but it, by default, it tends to explain those three or other four other options. And so now you’re dealing with like a 10 page response, Gini Dietrich: right? Chip Griffin: For what should be something pretty simple. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: So. I, part of my instructions to my tools are, don’t do that. Give me the alternatives, but just, you know, bullet point them. If I want more information, I’ll ask for it, but it allows it to work more the way that I want it to. And so we all need to do that. We also need to be looking at these tools and understanding that there’s no one size fits all solution. I have people say, well, should I, you know, should I use Claude or Chat GPT or Gemini? The answer is yes. Gini Dietrich: Yes to all of them. Chip Griffin: But they all serve different purposes. Yep. Just like you have different employees who serve different roles, these tools excel in different areas. I mean, Claude is fantastic at writing. I mean, to me, Claude is my head of writing because it can just absolutely nail it, but there’s a lot of things that it doesn’t do quite as well. Gini Dietrich: That’s right. Yep. Chip Griffin: And then I look at something like Gemini, and I love what Gemini does in terms of inferring things from research. So it’s more willing to go out on a limb, and kind of read between the lines of things that it finds to come back with, particularly for competitive intelligence or things like that. You know, deep research. Whereas Perplexity is very good for research where you really wanna make sure it’s accurate and you really wanna be able to cite all the sources, but it will not go out on a limb. So understanding what the strengths of each platform are is useful. And then there’s Chat GPT, which is sort of my, you know, my default choice for just basic stuff, strategy, et cetera. But I’ve also told it, tell me when I should go somewhere else. And so it’s good. It’ll say You should hand this off to Claude now. Gini Dietrich: I love that. Chip Griffin: Because we’ve, I’ve had an actual conversation with Chat GPT about my stack and, and what I think of it and I bounced things around and, you know, refined it. So now it knows how I want to handle certain things. And so it will stop at a certain point and say, now it’s time for you to go here. And that’s really helpful. Gini Dietrich: I love that. I do not do that. I usually move between, but I haven’t had it recommend when to move it. That’s… Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, but it could, because it won’t generally by default tell you to do that. But if you, if you explain what you have access to and what you want to use it for, it will tell you when is the right time, and sometimes I’ll pause and say, are you really the right one for this? Or should I be using one or the others? And they’ll say, no. Good point. You know, you should use this one instead for this particular task. Gini Dietrich: I love that. Chip Griffin: And it’s great. I mean, and I’ll, I’ll bring things back and forth like, so when I’m creating a piece of content, I’ll often, you know, ask more of the strategy piece from Chat GPT, because I’ve put more of the strategy stuff into there. Then I’ll go over to Claude to write it, but then I’ll bring it back for feedback. Now the next level is then to automate this with agents with n8n and those kinds of things. And, and so, you know, I’ll play with those things too. But for now, even doing it manually is a huge time saver, Gini Dietrich: huge time saver, Chip Griffin: and still ends up with really high quality content. It’s not, people talk about how AI is helping put out rubbish. And that’s because people are doing it without training. Gini Dietrich: Correct. Chip Griffin: You need to think through how you use these tools to get the results that your clients are looking for and the results that you need as a business. And this is where people are falling down, and this is where a lot more effort needs to go into it. If you want to not just survive but thrive. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I totally agree with you. And you know, it’s funny ’cause when somebody says to me, oh, I just can’t get it to output what I need, and I’m like, user error. I usually say that because that’s exactly what it is, is you haven’t taken the time to train it. I, and you have to, I, you said earlier, you talk to it like it’s an employee. I do the same thing. Talk to it through like, okay, this isn’t quite right and here’s why. Think about this, this, this, and this. We also need to consider these things. And then it goes. Oh, okay. Goes into thinking mode and then it, it outputs pretty close to, but you have to have a conversation with it. I use this example all the time, but my 12-year-old is obsessed. Obsessed with anime, and she like, no, nothing else exists in her world right now other than anime. And she has created an entirely new ecosystem of anime worlds from her favorite shows using chat GPT. I mean, it’s so good that I’ve actually considered. Finding a, a publisher to have it published as fanfiction because it’s that good. And she doesn’t type into it. She literally has a conversation with Chat. She calls it Gee. And she will say, Gee, I’m thinking about this. I want the guy to do this, and I want the girl to do this. And like she has a whole conversation and it creates this world with her that… it’s fascinating to sit and listen to how she’s using it. So it’s the same kind of thing. Have a conversation with it. You can do it via voice, you can do it, you know, by typing whatever is easiest for you. But have a conversation with it and teach it just like you would an employee. It’s gonna learn faster. It doesn’t sleep, it doesn’t need to eat. It doesn’t need to work out. It doesn’t need to take a break. It doesn’t, it’s not going to pause for meetings. You can have stuff running in the background while you’re doing something else. I mean, it’s the more time you spend training it, just like with a human being, the better it is. Chip Griffin: Yep. And I’m gonna be honest, it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be more work and stress in the short term for you. Gini Dietrich: Sure. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, this is not, Gini Dietrich: mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: You know, this is not a quick fix. It is not. It is not something where there’s some magic formula. You’re gonna have to try to figure out what works for you and for your team. What works for your clients. And the client piece is really where you need to start with this. You need to spend some time thinking about what are your clients really hiring you for? What are they going to need you for 12, 18, 24 months down the road? Then start figuring out how these tools can help you to get there. Because there’s just, there is too much of this “Well, you know, I need to, I need to protect my billing model, and so I need to do value pricing because of AI.” That is not the answer. Although if it were, what you would discover is that, that people are valuing less what you are doing today. So if you’re truly going to follow value pricing, that doesn’t mean that you get more. It means you probably get less for a lot of these things because they realize, you know, that drafting of a press release, I actually can get that out of Claude pretty well. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Yeah. Chip Griffin: Particularly if you feed it in your last three or four years worth of press releases. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: It’ll be pretty darn good at coming up with them on their own. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: Probably candidly, in less time that it takes to communicate to your team that they want it. Gini Dietrich: Yep. 100%. Yes. Chip Griffin: Now there will still be companies that are happy to outsource it generally. Gini Dietrich: Sure. Chip Griffin: Right. That’s, that is always going to exist. But the way that they value it from a price standpoint and the other things that they want alongside of it will absolutely change. And you need to be thinking about that. Because AI is not just changing how your business operates, it’s changing how other businesses operate. It’s changing how the media operates. And so it is truly a disruptive force that we need to be thinking about as communicators and as agency folks because it, it upends a lot of what we have done, tactically at least, in recent years and over the decades. It does not upset the outcomes that are being sought after. Gini Dietrich: That’s right. Chip Griffin: From the work that we’re doing. Gini Dietrich: That’s right. Chip Griffin: And, and we lose sight of that for the tactics too often. Gini Dietrich: One of the things that I did is I built an agent, and I call it my co CEO. And as I was building it, I was going through a really rough HR time and so I used it mostly, honestly, just to vent. But it got to know me, and what’s important to me, and my voice, and what things I wanted to be human forward on, and what things I needed to stay professional on. And so I, as I was building it, it was, I was going through that process. Now I can say to it, okay, we’re thinking about doing this. So for instance, a client came to me probably midyear last year and said, Hey, we really want your team to do an audit of all of our brands and where they sit on the PESO model maturity level. And I kind of laughed and said, well, I can tell you right now, they’re all at level zero. And he was like, great, that’s good to know. What’s what takes us from zero to one, one to two, and so on up. And I thought about that for a little bit and I was like, hmm. I don’t have an answer for that. And so I went into my CO CEO and I had a conversation with it. Like, if we were gonna build a maturity model for the PESO model for an enterprise customer, what does that look like? And it probably took two weeks for me to get something that I could go back to him with and feel comfortable and confident with it. But it would’ve taken me two months to do that on my own. So, you know, it helps you think, it helps poke through holes in things. You have an AI that you’re building and I hope it’s okay for me to mention this ’cause I don’t know if it’s available yet, but I got to beta test it and it’s, I put in there that I was looking for. I said, okay, this is where, this is where the business is at the end of 2025. These are our goals for 2026. Here’s what I’d like to do in the next three to five years. Here’s like, I put in all of that information, where are the holes? And it started poking holes into things that I had never even considered. And I was like. Chip, this is really good. It’s just, it’s really, really good. So when you, when you train it, when you teach it what you’re wanting, what your voice is, what you’re trying to achieve, it is going to help you in more ways than one. It’s gonna help you think through problems. It’s gonna help you come up with solutions you didn’t consider. And like I said, it doesn’t need to sleep. So it can work in the background while you’re doing other things. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And there are a lot of these ways that we can innovate for our businesses and that particular example, it is live on the SAGA website now. It’s an AI agent called Sage. Gini Dietrich: It’s awesome and everyone should check it out. Chip Griffin: It’s trained on a huge volume of my both public and private materials that I’ve created over the last eight or nine years, and it does a remarkably good job of mimicking the advice I would give. Is it a hundred percent? One-to-one? No. Yeah, but it’s, it’s pretty darn close to the point where I’ve had a couple of clients now who have tried it and then asked me the same question they asked of Sage, and they got almost exactly the same answer. And, and so that’s how, you know, it’s, it’s working pretty well because I think, as any listener knows, I have some views that are not necessarily exactly in line with every other advisor in the agency space. And so, and in some of those cases, they were pieces of advice that you wouldn’t get if you went somewhere else. So, you know, you can tell that it’s actually using the training materials. And not simply doing a general knowledge search. But these are all things, it does take time. You’ve gotta have the material to provide to it. You need to spend the time with it, as you did in conversing and going back and forth. But the more you go back and forth, the smarter it gets. Gini Dietrich: That’s right. Chip Griffin: And the better it can help you the next time something comes along. Gini Dietrich: That’s right. Chip Griffin: And I think the other thing is that the more you use these tools, the more it forces you to think about some of these things. Because in order to get the most from them, you really have to be very clear about who is your ideal client? What are the services you provide? What is the value you deliver? And so, it’s just like a business plan. I always say that the business plan itself doesn’t really matter, but the process you go through to create it does. The process you go through to train your AI itself is beneficial and helps to get clarity. Because the clearer you are with the AI, the clearer you are with yourself by necessity. And so you need to be thinking about these things. You need to be really thinking about making much more radical change to your business over the next year or two than you probably have previously thought. You really need to be thinking about how not just technology, but client needs will force this change, otherwise you are gonna get left behind. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I totally agree. And to your point earlier, if you evolve and if you use it, and you’re better, you’re doing a better job of understanding what it is that your clients are willing to pay for, and they’re still willing to do it. They just don’t wanna pay for social posts and news releases. Chip Griffin: That’s right. I mean, there’s a huge opportunity here. There’s a giant threat, Gini Dietrich: huge opportunity, Chip Griffin: and I don’t wanna minimize that, but there’s a huge opportunity. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: But the key is you actually have to evolve and change. You can’t just play buzzword bingo. Gini Dietrich: Yes, please. Chip Griffin: Just slapping AI on top of something that you deliver that’s not gonna help you. Gini Dietrich: And it’s fun. It’s fun to test it. It’s fun to try it out. So do it. Chip Griffin: Yeah, Gini Dietrich: Do it, do it, do it. Chip Griffin: I mean, but we can’t minimize. It is scary for a lot of people too. I mean, Gini Dietrich: sure, absolutely. Yeah. Chip Griffin: But you’ve gotta, you’ve gotta embrace that fear if you wanna succeed. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I always say when I have somebody new join the team that’s scared of it, I say, all right, let’s do it. Let’s use it for something personal. So I will say that to you as well. Meal planning, fitness, hobbies. Managing your kids’ meltdowns, whatever it happens to be, just try it for something. Write a poem in a birthday card. Try it for something personal, and I guarantee you, you’ll be hooked. Chip Griffin: I had no idea we’d be getting to poems and birthday cards here today. So I think that’s the note that we’re gonna wrap up this episode on. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

As agency owners settle into 2026, it’s easy to operate on autopilot—chasing the next tactic without reconnecting with what made the business work in the first place. In this episode, Chip and Gini make the case for looking backward before charging forward. Chip admits his first agency started because “consultant” sounded better than “unemployed.” But the real question isn’t just why you started—it’s why you decided to keep building. That motivation should be informing your strategy today. Gini shares how she once believed she wanted a large agency with hundreds of employees and global clients. When she hit 30+ people, she realized she’d built something she didn’t enjoy leading. She was buried in HR issues instead of doing the work that energized her. The Great Recession forced a reset, and she restructured the business around her strengths. Her advice: figure out what brings you joy in the business, and protect time to do more of it. Otherwise, you risk drifting into micromanagement or burnout. The episode also digs into practical growth tactics from the early days that still work. Gini recalls how she built her pipeline by developing relationships with business development leads at large agencies. When prospects came in below their fee threshold, they’d refer the work her way—a principle that remains just as relevant today. Both hosts encourage owners to revisit their “things I’d never do” list from when they started. It’s worth checking whether you’ve quietly drifted into those same patterns over time. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “Agency owners often ask me, what should I do next? And the answer is very different depending on what you’re trying to accomplish with the business.” Gini Dietrich: “We say this to clients all the time, go back to the basics. It works. And it works for your agency, too.” Chip Griffin: “You need to do what’s right for you. And so, I think that the key to that is really going back to your roots, understanding what motivated you to get started, what drove that success in the early days.” Gini Dietrich: “You want to focus on the things that you are great at, and the things that make you the happiest, and the things that are most motivating to you, because that’s how your business will grow.” Turn ideas into action Write down why you started your agency and what drove your early success. Block 30 minutes to identify patterns from those early days that you could leverage again for growth or business development today. Identify one thing that energizes you most about the work—then carve out time to do more of it. Even if it’s behind the scenes (like strategic brainstorming or quarterly client reviews), injecting that spark back into your role helps prevent burnout. Make a quick list of “things I swore I’d never do” when you started. Check whether you’ve drifted into any of those patterns on inertia—and decide if it’s a learned lesson or a habit worth breaking. Related Do you remember why you started your agency? Why one-size-fits-all advice doesn’t work for agencies View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I am Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I’m thinking way, way back, way back decades now to why I started my agency. Gini Dietrich: Oooh. Decades, huh? Chip Griffin: And I can’t remember ’cause I’m too old now, so. No, Gini Dietrich: you can too remember. Chip Griffin: Well, I mean, the honest answer is that I started my first agency was because I was unemployed. And it was better to describe myself as a consultant than unemployed. Yeah. Sure. And then than accidentally started accumulating business. Yeah. But I, but I do think it, it is a helpful exercise for us to go back and, and think about why we started the businesses or, or maybe not, in some cases, like mine, because I was unemployed, is not the greatest explanation. So you know more why did I decide to, to, to build it into an actual business. Gini Dietrich: Why? To keep going. Yeah. I think that’s good, especially as we’re, we’re thinking about starting out the new year and remind ourselves, you know, of the reasons that we started this. Some of us do it because we’re, we’re unemployed. Some of us did it because we found a better, we, we think we had a better way of doing things. Some of us did it because we have a problem with authority. Some of us did it ’cause we’d make terrible employees. I mean, there are lots of different reasons, but I think reaching back into our archives in our brains and thinking about why we did it or why we, I think that you’re right, why we continue to do it is a, is a really good exercise. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean, I, and, and I’ve said over and over again over the years that, that I think too many agencies operate on inertia, as opposed to any kind of a, a fundamental strategy. And so, you know, it’s very easy to say as, as I’m sure many people ask you as they do me, well, what’s the, what’s my next step? Here’s where my agency is now, what, what should I do next? And the answer is very different depending on what you’re trying to accomplish with the business. So trying to think back to those early days and what motivated you to start the business. Evaluate it because it, that may have changed, right? You, you may have started it because it served a particular need in the moment, and maybe it’s different today, but thinking about that and thinking about what you really want from the business is usually a better way to come up with strategic decisions than it is to say, well, what do other agencies like mine do when they get to this stage of growth or to this challenge? It’s, you really need to to match it up because otherwise, what’s the point of taking on all of that risk and stress of being a business owner? Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I mean, a really good example of that is I really thought I wanted to build a great big agency with hundreds of employees and, and clients around the globe and all of the, all of the things. And as I started to grow and we got to about 30 ish, 33, 32 people, I realized that’s not what I wanna do. Right. It was not enjoyable. I had built a company that I was not thriving in, that I didn’t enjoy leading. You know, I was dealing mostly with HR issues and not doing the work. And so the, the Great Recession did afford me the opportunity, unfortunately and fortunately to kind of take a step back and, and think about what kind of business do I want to have? And what kind of business do I want to lead? And while we’re back up to that same size, it’s a different structured business that allows me to focus in on the things that I do best and do the things that I enjoy versus HR ’cause that is not something I enjoy at all. Chip Griffin: I, I think I’ve yet to meet an owner who likes, enjoys doing HR or accounting or those sorts of things. Not fun. There are some who do it well. But don’t enjoy it. But I, I don’t think I’ve found any that actually enjoy doing it. So, but, but I think that, you know, as you think back to those early days and you think about what motivated you, it can often help you to figure out, you know, what is, what is that spark that you need in the business for you to either continue enjoying it for a longer period of time or bring back some of that, that joy that you had in those early days. Because I know a lot of agency owners these days are, are frustrated and, you know, trying to figure out how to change things for the better. And I think part of the way you inform yourself of that is by thinking back to those early motivations and figuring out how you can inject more of that into your business today. Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it’s, I think it’s really important to do that. And I think there, you know, for me personally, I get really passionate and enjoy my job when I’m learning and doing new things. So artificial intelligence, of course, has been a great big thing for me because I’ve really enjoyed learning it and understanding it and implementing it into my business and then taking it to clients. You know, last month we launched the PESO operating system, AI edition, where the AI prompts you instead of you prompting it. So it will say, what are your business objectives? What are you trying to achieve? What are your audiences? What are your messaging? And then it builds a PESO program for you that’s fully integrated versus you saying I need you to act like a marketing director who can, who understands PESO and can build this and this. It’s that. So I like, those are the kinds of things that really get me excited. And building those kinds of things gets me excited and motivated. So it’s, it’s easy because I understand that about myself. It drives my team crazy ’cause they’re like, oh, she’s got something new. Or my, their favorite thing is, I had an idea. And they’re like, oh no, no, not again. But that’s what keeps me, yeah, that’s what keeps me motivated. So finding a way to understand what brings you joy in the business, I think is incredibly important. So that without exhausting your team, of course, but doing it in a way that keeps you motivated and, and not burned out. Chip Griffin: Yeah. One of the things that always used to, to drive my teams nuts was I would say, you know, over the weekend I was playing with this new thing. And, and you could just see the looks on their faces and they’re like, oh, this is a lot more work for me now. Gini Dietrich: This is gonna be fun. Yep. Chip Griffin: This is, yep. Yep. They, they never seemed to appreciate it the way that I had hoped they would when I came to them. Correct. With these, these brilliant brainstorms of mine. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: I, and I think as, as you know, founders of agencies, most of us come in with some sort of that. Idea that, that we want to be creative or strategic or those kinds of things. And as we end up in more of a management role, we have less and less opportunities to do it. So I, I think that, that rather than giving up on that dream, we need to figure out how we can sprinkle enough of that in there to keep ourselves motivated. We can’t give up the, the management piece. We can’t give up the business development piece. Many of us would like to. But the, the reality is that, unless you’ve built a fairly large agency, you just don’t have the ability to pull yourself out of that, as a solo owner. But it doesn’t mean that you have to give up on those things entirely. You can carve out a piece of time to work on that, and if you are structuring your role in such a way that you’re enjoying what you’re doing, it also means that you’re frankly less likely to be doing the, the, the bad things that founders of businesses can do, which is micromanagement and tinkering with things that you don’t really belong in because you, because you’re not occupying yourself with the things that really motivate you. And instead, you’re continuing to try to do every aspect of the business. And that’s where you start to, to run into team morale problems quite often. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. You know, I think one of the biggest lessons I’ve learned over the years is that, yes, I can do the work, and yes, I can probably do it pretty well, but is it really something that I should be focused on? And if not, is it something that I can pay an expert to do because in the long run, it’ll cost me less money, less time, less resources, all of the things. And I know as small agency owners, it’s really hard to say, gosh, I’m gonna have to spend $2000 or $3,000 a month on an expert. When in fact it might save you, you know, 15 or 20 grand on the backend. So I think you have to think about these things as investments in your business and investments in your time so that you can focus on the things that, that you are great at and the things that make you the happiest and the things that are most motivating to you, because that’s how your business will grow. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. And if, if that happens to be being creative and strategic, then, then you can, you shouldn’t be doing it day to day in all likelihood for clients. Sure. But you should find ways to do it either as part of, you know, quarterly or annual client reviews. Or internal brainstorming sessions that you’re engaging in. There’s a lot of things you can do behind the scenes to be useful and, and to, to exercise those muscles in a way that that gives you satisfaction. But doesn’t put you on the front lines so that you’re, you know, now the, the one that the, the client decides they’re gonna call every time they’ve got an issue. Because that, that ends up eating up a lot of your time in a way that probably you’re not going to enjoy. So sometimes it’s doing things behind the scenes that gets you the, the most value, or doing annual in person with the client. But they understand it’s special that you’re here, this is not. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. This is not something they can or should expect every week. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. You know, I, I know I’ve talked about this before on the podcast, but we do quarterly planning with our clients. We do a quarterly look back, and then we, you know, say, okay, based on metrics and data and all that and your priorities, here’s what we’re suggesting for quarter two or in the next quarter. And that has afforded many opportunities. A, for me to, to work in my where I’m, where I’m strong, but it also almost always gets us more money. So when you’re, when agency owners are like, oh, should I do a cost of living raise every year? Should I increase by 10 or 15% every year? That kind of goes away because you are getting new projects every quarter based on the the plan and the strategic strategy and creativity that you’re providing to the clients every quarter, because they’re like, oh gosh, yeah, we should actually do that. And some, and sometimes they’ll say, we don’t have extra budget. Can we move some things around? Which is okay, but most of the time they’ll say, you know, we, we have a little extra budget. Let’s focus on doing that. We have to launch a new website. Here’s some extra budget for that. We have to do a series of webinars to maintain our CEUs. Let’s here’s a little extra budget for that. So there are things and opportunities for you to, for lack of a better term, term upsell when you’re doing these quarterly meetings versus waiting for the annual. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, and so, you know, finding a way to, to inject yourself in those things is a valuable exercise. Absolutely. From that, look back to the early days. But the other thing that that can be helpful in looking back to your early days of your agency is, you know, what helps drive your early success? Because a lot of times when we’re trying to find solutions to our current growth issues, we can find clues in some of those early days and mm-hmm. A lot of that, you know, in the early days of, of most agencies, it may be that low hanging fruit from personal networks and things like that. But there are usually other patterns that you might be able to see there that might help you to understand what are, what are the basics that you need to go back to? How do you, how do you employ some of those rather than, than focusing on, you know, all of the fancy new things that you see, you know, some, you know, genius podcast hosts talking about as far as how to grow an agency and instead say, Hey, this is what worked for me. Yep. Because you may find something that works again today. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we say this to clients all the time, but going back to the basics. It works. And it works for you too, so absolutely you should think about those kinds of things. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, you didn’t get here by accident. Well, maybe you got, maybe it’s a little bit of an accident sometimes that happens. Maybe, yeah. Some of it. But, if you’ve had any longevity at all, even a few years of longevity as an agency owner, there are patterns that you can find usually that started in those early days. That you can lean into for understanding and rather than trying to do something wild and different, focus on the things that you know, you’ve proved can work for your business. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. One of the things, if I were to dig back into the archives, one of the things that worked extremely well for us is I had developed relationships with people who did business development at the large agencies, and what I found is that if they had an RFP or a current client or a prospect come in and say, we only have a quarter of a million dollars to spend. They’re not even gonna look at that. And so they started just referring that business to us, which is how I grew the business. Mm-hmm. So if I think about that now, how could we replicate that kind of, you know, pipeline development? It was extremely effective. And I, I gift that to all the listeners too. Like there are larger agencies in all of your cities that they have a certain threshold, and if any something comes in below that, they are happy to refer business. So there is, there is one way for you to start thinking about how am I going to, you know, keep myself motivated? How am I gonna keep my pipeline full? How am I gonna keep cash coming in? That’s one of the things that you can think about. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and thinking those things through. I mean, sometimes it’s not a one for one where you did exactly the same way you did it originally, but you take that nugget of an idea. And you know, things like, finding other people who can refer you business that’s not quite a fit for, for them, but might be for you. It’s a good reminder to be out there and having conversations with your peers. With people even that you might perceive sometimes as competitors, because there are often opportunities. In the work that I do with agencies, it’s not uncommon for some of the other consultants in the space to refer clients to me that are a better fit for my background and the kinds of agencies that I work with and vice versa. Because you know, we all have our specialties. And as an agency you have your specialties, so it is very common for many agencies to have grown this way. So certainly something to be looking at today, particularly if you’re struggling to find that new business in 2026. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think I really love the advice of thinking back to how you got to where you are and some of the things that you did, and going back to basics a little bit, because those are the things that are going to continue to work. And to your point, maybe tweak a little bit to make a more, be more effective in ’26. Chip Griffin: I mean, it also puts you in the right mindset, I think, because if you’re thinking back to those early stages, that tends to be when many agencies have the most growth, when things are most exciting. And so if you can try to bring back even a sprinkling of that, that can be really helpful. Particularly when times are tougher, or you’re looking for the inspiration to take things to the next level or whatever challenge you may be facing today, those lessons can be extremely valuable and also motivating at the same time. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Yeah. I used to, I used to get mad at companies that would hire big PR firms for like brand awareness and, you know, sending news releases and they didn’t get any coverage. They didn’t get any results. And I would get, I would get angry and I would call the company and be like, you’re so stupid. I would never do that today. But I had such a, I was just so naive and passionate about what we were doing, that it didn’t bother me to call and be like, we can do this significantly better for you. And in some cases they laughed and hung up on me. And in some cases, like we became agency of record. Like we took AOR away from Fleischman Hillard one year from a big, big company with a big, big company. And it was because I made a phone call where I was like, I can’t believe that you’re spending this kind of money and getting these kinds, these lackluster results. They were like, all right, let’s listen. I don’t think I would do that today, but it worked. Chip Griffin: Right. But, thinking back to those things can help you do two things. One is to think some of the positive things that you can do or the affirmative steps, right. That you can take. But the, but sometimes looking back to, to how you got started can also be reminders not to do certain things. Gini Dietrich: Sure, sure. Chip Griffin: So, particularly if you’ve started an agency and maybe you worked at an agency previously when you started, you probably had this laundry list of things. I would never do these things as an agency. And I, I think back to my first agency and some of the agencies that I had worked with previously, you know, did a lot of what I felt was nickel and diming of you in terms of back in the day charging you for faxes and photocopies. Sure. Yes. And all sorts of little expenses. And so, you know, I was committed back then to making sure that my invoices were always clean and simple and fixed, and I just worked in the cost of all of these things. Into my total cost of doing business so that I never had to aggravate a client. Fast forward to today. If I found myself doing that, I, by looking back, I would say, wait a minute. Let me think about that. Am I, am I being true to what my vision was of the business? And if not, is that because I’ve actually learned something and it does make sense to do what I thought was wrong back then. Because I mean, you can learn and grow. There’s nothing wrong with that. Sure. Or have you just fallen into the trap because you walked around and you saw other people doing it. So you said, well, I’m gonna start charging for faxes too. And if you’re charging for faxes in 2026, by the way, Gini Dietrich: we have a problem, but Chip Griffin: we have a huge problem because, what the heck are you using that fax machine for? Let alone that you’re charging for it. And by the way, where did you find a fax machine? Because I haven’t seen a fax machine in person in a really long time, except maybe like at the back of a doctor’s office. The, you know, Gini Dietrich: the bank and the doctor’s office. Yeah, I think that’s it. Chip Griffin: Well, I haven’t, I don’t, I kind, I haven’t been inside a bank in a long time, but Gini Dietrich: yeah, Chip Griffin: everything’s, everything’s electronic now. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. There’s no need for that. Chip Griffin: But yeah, think, think back to those, those motivations that you may have had that rather than I want to do this, it was, I never want to be the kind of agency that does this. Because it, it is really so easy to fall down those rabbit holes over time without even realizing that you’re just, you’re doing the same things that, that you didn’t ever want to see when you started your business. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I think it’s so easy to sit on social media, and you’ll get served ads from experts who say this is the way that you should do things. And in some cases it might work. And in some cases you might be like, there’s no way. And I think it’s really easy to listen to somebody and say, yeah, but we went from $3 million in debt to making $3 million a day, like, you know, these wild claims. And then you kind of get sucked into that. I think if you’re really true to who you are and what kind of agency you want to build, that’s going to enable you to say, this just doesn’t feel right to me. I’m not, I’m just gonna… great if he’s really making $3 million a day, I need to just bypass this one. Chip Griffin: Because you need to do what’s right for you. And so, I think that the key to that is, is really going back to your roots, understanding what motivated you to get started, what drove that success in the early days. And by understanding the, the early months or years of your agency, the more that you can inform some of the decisions that you’re making going forward one way or the other. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Think about it. It’s a good way to start ’26. Chip Griffin: Nice positive way. We, we managed to get through an episode here without beating up on our listeners. We didn’t start the year on a negative note, did we? We started positive. We did. Think about, we think about what has worked for you previously. Yes. And do more of that. Do more. So we will do more of this on a future episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. But in the meantime, I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the complexities of hiring in growing agencies. They highlight the challenges of finding skilled, reliable employees who align with agency values. Sharing personal experiences, Gini explains the pitfalls of hasty hiring and the benefits of thorough vetting and cultural fit. They stress the importance of a structured hiring process, including clear job roles, career paths, and appropriate compensation. They also underscore the value of meaningful interviews, proper candidate evaluations, and treating the hiring process as the start of a long-term relationship. Lastly, Chip and Gini emphasize learning from past mistakes to improve hiring effectiveness and employee retention. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “When we talk about retaining employees, it goes back to how the interviews went.” Gini Dietrich: “You’re gonna be working with this person eight hours a day. You should have a real meaningful conversation with them. Don’t ask if you were a tree, what kind of tree would you be?” Chip Griffin: “If you’re going to have members of your team interviewing, you need to make sure that you’re educating them on how to do it well. And how to do it without causing problems.” Gini Dietrich: “They say, hire slowly and fire fast for a reason, because you have to be really meticulous about who you hire. So that they do last. So they are a culture fit, so they don’t miss deadlines, so that they are getting the work done that you need done.” Related How to onboard new agency employees Get over your fear of hiring employees Hiring the best employees for your agency How to hire agency employees Setting honest expectations for your agency employees from the start Focus on agency employee retention View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, a few weeks ago, I think I fired you. Today, you’re hired, Gini Dietrich: You keep playing with my emotions. I don’t know how to do this anymore. I’m fired. I don’t get paid. Now you’re rehiring me. I don’t know what to do. Chip Griffin: Yeah, it’s difficult. Anyway. It is what it is. But no, we are gonna talk about hiring today because we are, you know, we can’t just talk about all the bad things. So, we’ll, we’ll spend some time talking about something that is overall more positive. Because if we’re hiring, hopefully that means that we are growing, or at least we have the need for additional resources, even if it’s replacing someone who has left. But it is something that is very challenging, so it can create its own problems along the way if you don’t do it right. So this is, something that comes from one of our favorite topic inspiration sources. Reddit. I know it’s a place that you live and breathe. Gini Dietrich: And by favorite, we’re using quotes “favorite”, scares the crap outta me. But ok. Chip Griffin: You are on Reddit all day every day. Just kind of combing around to see what conversations you can jump into. But this is one that was on there, probably a while ago honestly, it’s in our topic document. We didn’t date it, so I, I can’t tell you how long ago it was, but, what it says is, hiring the right people is harder than it looks. Finding skilled, reliable people who align with your values is a challenge. Early on, I rushed hires and paid for it in missed deadlines and miscommunication. Now I take more time to vet people and focus on cultural fit as much as skills. So I thought it would be helpful for us to have a conversation around how we approach the hiring process. How do we find the right fits? How do we vet those fits? And how do we frankly think about going from hiring them to, to beginning to on onboard them. We’re not gonna talk about the full onboarding process, but just sort of, you know, that, that evolution of saying, Hey, I need this role. Where do we go from there? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, it’s, it’s funny you say that this is our topic today. ’cause just the other day I was thinking about some of the very early hires I made that didn’t work out. And all of the mistakes I made in, in hiring them. And I will say that one of the biggest mistakes that I make is I meet somebody online who has the right skillset from a paper perspective, resume perspective, and I just hire them. I’m like, oh yeah, you, you look like you can do the job. And we may have a conversation, but there’s no, like, thought about it. There’s no interviewing for skills. It’s more just like a, a conversation to see if we, we might be able to work together. And every time I have done that, it has not worked out. So earlier this year I hired a chief learning officer to help with like certification and, you know, all the professional development things we do on the PESO model front. And about three or four months in, we both realized that, that that while she can do that job and she’s great at that job, she would be more valuable as a chief operating officer. So we switched her over. And let me tell you, being professionalized on the hiring front is phenomenal. I mean, she has set up interview guides, so like if you are an assistant account executive, and this would be somebody that you report to maybe two or three levels up, and we’re having you interview, you have a set of questions. If you’re the direct report, you have a set of questions. So we, like, she’s created all this. She’s created salary bands and like, you know, a career path for everybody where from where they start and she’s done, she’s done it in such a way that it isn’t bloat, but it’s just kind of professionalized the way that we do things. And you don’t have to hire a chief operating officer to do this, like I know you, you like to talk. Patrick is your go-to person from an HR perspective, someone like Patrick can help create these things so that you can professionalize it because as they say, hire slowly and fire fast. That quote is there for a reason, because you have to be really meticulous about who you hire. So that they do last. So they are a culture fit, so they don’t miss deadlines so that they are getting the, the work done that you need done and you’re not being, like, I have been in, in the last 20 years of just hiring people I like. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, and I, I mean, I think that, you know, you’ve touched on some important things here and, and you do have to have some sort of a process in place. It doesn’t need to turn you do into a bureaucratic circus, Gini Dietrich: You do, right. Chip Griffin: But at the same time, you need to have a process. And, and it really, to me, starts with being clear about what it is that you need. And who it is that you’re trying to hire. And, and too often when we’re trying to hire, it’s either because someone has left or because we’ve got a new client. And so our, our mindset is we need to get someone in here quick because we’ve gotta relieve this pain and this pressure. But that often leads to some of those bad decisions because you’re not really evaluating. Not even just the individual, but the role. Mm-hmm. And you need to think through, you know, what do you actually need at any given point in time? And it’s one of the reasons why I am a very strong advocate of only hiring, particularly in small agencies, only hiring one person at a time, one role at a time. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Yes. Chip Griffin: Because every time you add someone new to the mix, it changes a little bit what you think you might need in the next one. And if you hire two people simultaneously, it increases the odds that you don’t actually have the right mix of talent on board. So you’ve gotta be crystal clear with yourself about what you’re looking for, but to your point, you also need to have a process in place that helps to understand what are our salary bands, what are our titles? How does this fit in? What is their growth path? Because those are questions you will get during the interview process. And if you’re not clear about those things going in, you will either overpay or underpay or assign the wrong title. Or frankly, get the wrong person because you’re not thinking about it in the big picture. So put the thought process in upfront, and that is the, to me, the first step in making sure that you make as good a decision as possible. Accepting that frankly, a lot of hiring decisions are gonna be wrong. Right? Even of course, even, even the, of course, even the best organizations, of course with the, with robust HR teams and, and talent evaluation, they still have a lot of misfires, so you can’t beat yourself up over those. But you’ve gotta increase your odds by having the right thought process and structural process in place. Gini Dietrich: One of the things that, you know, early on I would do when I didn’t have a team who could interview people, I would ask my business coach, or I would ask, you know, friends that were in the industry, other agency owners, if they would participate in some interviewing, just to kind of get me out of the Gosh, I really like this person. I think we’ll work well together. And, rather than, gosh, I really like this person and I think they can do the job right. So just having different outside perspective helped me when I didn’t have a team that could also do the interviewing. So I think, you know, doing that kind of stuff too helps. And I also think that, you know, I, one of the biggest mistakes, and you touched on this that I’ve made, is not having that career path or clear career path. Because people come to work and even though you’re an entrepreneur and you’re the agency owner, and you kind of know in your head how things work, they need to know that because this is their career that you’re talking about. So they need to know that if I wanna be promoted in 6 months, or 12 months or 18 months or whatever it happens to be, these are the things that I need to achieve so that they’re working towards something, not waiting for the annual review and saying, am I up for a promotion? What does that look like? Do I get a raise? Like, so having those kinds of things I think is incredibly important upfront so that you know, this is what we expect, this is how you’ll get to the next step, and you can be very clear about that. Chip Griffin: Yeah, because it, it is a question that you absolutely will get. I’ve done a lot of interviews over the years. I continue to, to do interviews for clients, and I can tell you that you get a lot of those kinds of questions where people want to understand what their career path is. The other one they ask a lot is, what does a typical day look like? Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: You’ve gotta have the answers for those questions as best you can, and, and you need to be honest with them where you don’t know. So don’t, don’t, you know, blow smoke and, and Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: You know, give them an answer if you don’t have one. If, if the honest answer is, I don’t know. Tell them that, but then also explain how you think about it or how you would go about it, or the kinds of things that, that might be included so that you can paint some kind of a picture there. Because it’s, it is important for people to evaluate it. And frankly, we look at these things as, as evaluating the talent for us. But they’re also evaluating us. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Chip Griffin: And, and so you also need to make sure that in the process you’re giving them plenty of time to ask questions. In fact, I usually start by letting them ask questions for two reasons. One is because it helps them to get the information that they need to evaluate it. But second, you learn as much from the questions they ask as anything else. And to me, a red flag is when they have no questions at all. Gini Dietrich: No questions. Yeah. Chip Griffin: Because if they have no questions at all, it probably means they did no research. They’re probably not all that interested. They’re just trying to get a job of some kind. It doesn’t, it doesn’t mean necessarily that they’re a bad fit. Some people just freeze up because they’re, you know, that’s, that’s not a traditional approach to interviews. To start by saying, what questions do you have of me? Right. By the way, introduce yourself first. Talk a little bit about the business and the role. I mean, don’t just, you know, say hello. What questions do you have? Gini Dietrich: Hello. What do you have? What questions can I answer? Chip Griffin: But, but honestly, I, I almost always will ask people what questions they have before I ask my first question. We just do the intros and then start with that, because you learn from that. And it, it also helps them get onto a more comfortable spot. And so you can steer the, the conversation, I think, more effectively that way. Gini Dietrich: One of my biggest pet peeves is, you know, now that we have a, a team who does the interviews, if the candidate gets to me, that means they’re one of the finalists, right? And I will say, what questions do you have of me? And they will say, and this happens more often than not. Well, I kind of already asked my all my other question, my questions from everybody else. So ask them again. Right? Make sure you get the same answer like. Right. Yeah, because that will, as I know we’re not talking, we’re not talking to candidates right now, but that will tell you as much if there’s, the answers are different than anything else. So that is also a red flag. Which brings me to, we actually created a list of red flags, and we’re going through the A process right now ’cause we’re hiring and our HR director is doing pre-screens, phone screens, and one of the red flags is Are you able to work with within bureaucracy and lots of change and indecisiveness and you know. And one, one of the people that’s interviewing said, I just don’t like bureaucracy. I don’t like lots of change. I don’t like indecisiveness, I’m not. And she was like, no, like, because we have our list of red flags. So it’s, it’s an easy way also to sort of get yourself out of the, gosh, I really like this person. I’d like to work with them. If you have that list of red flags that you will allow you to objectively say, probably not the right fit for this job. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, and the more that you do of this, the more easily you can come up with those things that just, that it, they’re the indication that this may not be the best fit. Yeah. And I always encourage probing just to make sure that, and I prefer to think of ’em as orange flags rather than red flags most of the time. Because most of the time it’s more the accumulation of those things than, than a single one that Gini Dietrich: fair, fair, Chip Griffin: that says, okay, no, this isn’t the right fit. But I also like to probe. And so, you know, in an example like that, I might say, well, well why does that bother you? Why is that a problem? And just kind of see, Gini Dietrich: yeah. Chip Griffin: You know, what their, what their root thinking is, because I mean, chances are it’s not gonna change anything, but it’s always interesting to find out why. I think the other thing, and, and you touched on this in, in, you know, having a, a, an interview guide and all of that, if you’re going to have members of your team interviewing, you need to make sure that you’re educating them on how to do it well. And how to do it without causing problems. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: And I think I’ve shared this on the podcast before. Yes. But I have seen so many egregious questions in interviews Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: Over the years that create substantial legal and regulatory issues. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: Please, please, please train your juniors. Frankly, some of you probably need some training yourselves. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: On how to do this, Gini Dietrich: I was just gonna say yes. Yes. Chip Griffin: In a way that’s not causing problems. Yes. Because the, I mean, the questions that I’ve seen asked in interviews are just off the charts and, and, and so blatantly inappropriate. Gini Dietrich: Do you have some examples? Chip Griffin: Focus on, and, and, and the other thing is focus on questions that, that actually might reveal something that’s useful to you. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: You are not, this is not Google. You’re not out there trying to ask, you know, weird mind game questions. Ask straightforward questions. I, I mean, ’cause the other thing Gini Dietrich: if you were a tree, what kind of tree would you be? Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean, in addition to the inappropriate questions, you just get these dumb ones, right? Where someone, someone read an article and they’re like, oh, you learn so much if you ask, what kind of tree would you be? Really, you just look crazy as an interviewer. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: You’ll look like you’ve lost your mind. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Just don’t do it. Have a real conversation. Treat them like a professional. Treat them with respect. Treat them like you would a prospect. Don’t sit there and, and try to play gotcha games. It’s not a quiz show. It’s not. If you want to go on a quiz show and, and you wanna run your own quiz show, fine. Do that. Your interview subjects, that’s not what it’s for. Don’t ask them in Google Analytics, where do you go to do this? Come on, seriously, just knock it off. Gini Dietrich: That’s funny. Chip Griffin: And if you’re gonna, if you’re gonna try to apply tests to people, you gotta pay them. Gini Dietrich: I totally 100% agree with that. Chip Griffin: But you can’t, Gini Dietrich: yes. Chip Griffin: You can’t say, I need you to write a plan for me. Gini Dietrich: No. Chip Griffin: Or write a press release or something like that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Particularly if it’s for an actual client you have Correct. And you might actually use it. That’s just wrong. That’s, and I see that way too often. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Where someone says, well, I need to evaluate you. I need you to, to do this. On the technical side, I’ve seen people ask to be written to write all sorts of code. Why? Gini Dietrich: Bad idea. I, you know what, actually Reddit is full of, of those like, so I’m interviewing for this job and they asked me to put together a 12 month plan complete with deck and strategy and blah, blah, blah. Is that normal? And I’m always like, no? Chip Griffin: No, Gini Dietrich: don’t do it. I understand the hiring market is tough right now, but no. Chip Griffin: It’s just bizarre. I mean, honestly, I, I would be suspicious of anybody who could put together that kind of a plan based on, you know, 10 minutes of conversation. Gini Dietrich: Right, right, right. Chip Griffin: I mean, and that’s the other thing. You have to be realistic about what kinds of answers you can get from people in these short windows of time. And so it really is… it’s not necessarily about whether you like them, but it’s, it’s trying to get to understand how they think, how they approach things. You can get those big picture senses off of these conversations, but the, the more granular you get with your question, the less likely it is to be a reliable indicator. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: And, and you need to, to again, treat it like a real conversation. So to the extent you have interview guides. Please use them. Just look through them and, and use it as, as a, a general format for the questions you might ask. Please do not do as, as. When I used to advise members of Congress and I prepared questions for them for hearings. Some of them would sit there and ask question one, question two, question three. They wouldn’t even listen to what the, the answer was from the witness at the hearing. They wouldn’t listen to what their colleagues had asked. So I, there were any number of situations where a member would read my question. The member previous to them had asked the exact same question, but they weren’t bothering to listen. Or they asked question one, and they move immediately to question number two, even though the person actually answered question number two as part of their response to question number one. Use your brain. Have a meaningful conversation. Do not walk through your, these are the 10 questions I always ask on interviews and just march through them Gini Dietrich: right Chip Griffin: in forced order. That doesn’t make any sense. You, you need to, to have a real meaningful conversation with someone if you wanna evaluate them properly. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. You’re gonna be working with this person eight hours a day. You should have a real meaningful conversation with them. This, that’s ludicrous. Chip Griffin: Alright, so you, so we’ve, we’ve figured out what we need. We’ve done the interviews. So now how do we pick, we, you know, we’ve got, I mean, let’s say we’ve got a couple of finalists. They’re both in our view, viable finalists. They’re, they’re, they both could do the job. What do you weigh most heavily when you’re evaluating one versus the other? How, how do you make that difficult decision? Gini Dietrich: I’m the wrong person to ask that question ’cause it is based on whether or not I like you and that’s probably not the right response. Chip Griffin: I mean the, there has to be an element of that, particularly in a small agency. Right. You know, you Yeah. If you just, if if you, if you don’t get the right vibe off of someone and you’re like, ah, this just doesn’t… listen to yourself. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Right. If, if you don’t enjoy having the conversations with that person during the interview process, Gini Dietrich: it’s not gonna get better. Chip Griffin: And maybe you say, well, but they’re, they have all the skills. They have all the connections. They know what they’re doing. Oh, it’d make my life so easy. Listen to yourself there. And that doesn’t mean that you have to have that, you know, you need to hire people that you want to go out and have a beer with after work or something like that. But, you know, you’ve gotta feel like, I could talk to this person Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: An hour or two a day and I, I wouldn’t lose my mind. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: Don’t ever say they’ve got so much talent. I’m gonna ignore that. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Never, because I, the way I think about it is, and the same thing with clients, I would say it will, it gets to the point that I’m gonna end up canceling meetings with this person or with this client. If the answer is yes, then it’s not the right fit. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, and, and the flip side is true too. Going to your point very early in this conversation, if you, if you are enjoying your conversation with that person, don’t overlook the fact that they don’t actually have the skills Yeah. That match up. Mm-hmm. Or, you know, they are under, it will bite you, underqualified or overqualified for the role. They still need to be a fit for the role. No matter how much you enjoy uhhuh your conversations with them or how smart you think they are, Uhhuh, that they may be a good fit for your organization at some point in some role, but it may not be the one you’re hiring for now. Mm-hmm. So make sure that you’re clear with yourself and don’t talk yourself into something. I, I see this a lot where people will get through the hiring process and they find someone that they really like and they’re like, well, they’re not really a fit for this role, but I could see them doing this or that. It’s okay to be flexible, but make sure that whatever this or that is, is really something you need. And you’re not talking yourself into an additional expenditure or putting yourself in a position where, yes, you’ve got that person, but now you still have to hire for this other role. You, you may make things more difficult for yourself in that. So make sure that you’re always going back to what did you say you needed? And if we’re deviating from that, why? And is it, is it a sound business case for making that decision? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. Learn from me. Don’t make those mistakes. It costs a lot of time, a lot of money, and a lot of angst. It burns, some bridges. Learn from me. Chip Griffin: And, and also throughout the interview process, and I think we’ve talked about this on the, the show in the past before start thinking about those interview conversations, the hiring conversation where you’re making the offer. Think about all of those as part of the onboarding process. Because it really is a seamless transition or should be a seamless transition into the onboarding and ultimately retention. I mean, when, when we talk about retaining employees, it goes back to how the interviews went. Absolutely. The questions you asked, the way you handled yourself, all of that impacts things that will happen 6, 12, 18 months down the road or even more. Yeah. And so you need to be mindful of that and thinking about how would this person perceive the questions we ask, the process we follow, are we frankly canceling a lot of times on them during the interview process. You need to treat them with respect, if you want to be treated with respect, if you want to build a lasting relationship. So think about all of that at every step of the hiring process, from that first interview, to the last interview, to the offer, et cetera. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely, yes. It’s very, very, very important for you to be organized and prepared. Hire slowly. Those will be the things that save you from a hiring perspective. And like I said, learn from me and don’t always hire just people you like. Chip Griffin: There you go. But don’t hire people you dislike either. Gini Dietrich: So well, sure. But they also have to have the skills to do a good job. Chip Griffin: All right, well I guess with that, we’ll let you keep your job for now, so Gini Dietrich: Well thanks. Thanks. I appreciate it. Chip Griffin: On that note, we will draw this episode to a close. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich, Chip Griffin: and it depends.

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the growing concerns surrounding AI in the agency world. They highlight the irrational fears and cyclical nature of technological disruptions, drawing comparisons to social media and content marketing trends of the past. The hosts argue against the notion that agencies should discount services due to AI efficiencies, emphasizing that AI should be seen as a tool to enhance productivity and strategic value rather than a cost-cutting measure. They stress that agencies should focus on delivering more value and maintaining regular client communication instead of simply protecting existing revenue. The discussion also touches on the importance of transparency in AI use without oversharing minute details. Finally, they underscore the benefit of quarterly planning to align agency efforts with client business goals, thus fostering stronger client relationships and ensuring mutual success. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “Take ourselves out of the mindset that the AI is coming in and so we need to protect what we have. Instead, we should be thinking about how can we elevate, how can we produce more and better results for our clients?” Gini Dietrich: “Just because you’re faster at some mundane, laborious task does not mean that you should reduce your fees.” Chip Griffin: “Getting into the nitty gritty of your AI usage is sort of like explaining to a client whether you’re using a landline or a mobile phone to reach out to reporters. It doesn’t matter.” Gini Dietrich: “The strategy stays the same. The best practices stay the same. The tools have changed and the tools continue to change.” Related AI should be your agency’s friend, not foe Agencies succeed through consistency and evolution Setting AI policies for your agency View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I am Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini I, I think that AI is making people crazy. They’re losing their minds and acting irrationally. Gini Dietrich: Yes, yes. I completely agree. Some of the stuff I see online, I’m like, you guys, Chip Griffin: take a deep breath. Gini Dietrich: Breath, everyone. Take a deep breath. Stop clutching your pearls. It’s okay. Chip Griffin: Well, maybe the AI really has become sentinent and – sentient – and the, the robot overlords are doing this intentionally to make us go crazy and eat each other alive. Gini Dietrich: Maybe, maybe. Although this happened with social media, it happened with content marketing. It happened with blogging. Here we are with AI. Everybody’s freaking out. Like, this is cyclical. Everyone’s gonna calm down. It will be okay. Chip Griffin: I don’t know if they’ll calm down, but eventually they’ll, they’ll come to the realization that perhaps it isn’t what they thought it, it was, and that it is, it is important. It is useful. It is valuable. It is not something that upends absolutely everything we do every moment of the day and we need to orbit around it. I mean, it just, it really does remind me of those early days of social media where, you know, you’d see these, these articles and posts about, oh my God, CEOs, they need to be blogging and they need to be blogging every day. And I don’t care how big your company is, the CEO needs to write those blog posts themselves. Ghost writing is an evil thing and we shall not do it. And if we do have it ghost written, we must disclose on that blog post or article that this was ghost written and not actually written by the CEO. Because we all believe that CEOs write their own darn stuff. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Yes. That’s why I say it’s all cyclical. Everyone calmed down. It’s going to be okay. That said, I happened upon the LinkedIn post by a second connection, who’s a chief marketing officer, and it essentially said, I’m trying to figure out how to manage my agencies who are using AI and how to ask what kind of discount and how to ask for a discount, because I know they’re using AI. and I was just like, there is no discount because you’re, they’re using AI. They’re able to focus on other things because of that, and they’re able to be more strategic in some areas because of it, but they, they should not be giving you a discount, just like the surgeon doesn’t give you a discount. Because the imaging is faster. You shouldn’t like the same. You’re not. Just because you’re faster at some mundane, laborious task does not mean that you should reduce your fees ever. Drives me freaking nuts. Chip Griffin: Yep. And I would absolutely agree with that, with the asterisk that if, for example, you are being hired to do writing and the AI does all the writing and you don’t edit and you don’t do anything else, and so you know you’re spending 10 minutes on it instead of 10 hours. You absolutely should be either figuring out how you can do more for the client, correct. Or you should be reducing your rates. Yes. Because it is, you know, I love all the talk about, you know, value-based pricing, which we talk about all the time, and certainly there are a lot of people who say, well, it doesn’t matter if I use AI to do it. They’re getting the same value out of it. Well, they are and they aren’t because they could do the work themselves if they wanted to in less time with less cost. And so. You’re not really creating that value anymore if the AI is doing it totally on its own and it doesn’t have anything to do with the prompts that you’re writing or, or the management of the whole process. And all of those things do take time, by the way. Mm-hmm. So we shouldn’t, we shouldn’t forget about that. Right. Particularly when we’re thinking about our own agencies and how we can be more efficient, the time it takes to manage the AI matters. We’ve talked about this recently. You cannot allow those things to, to be forgotten about. And so all of that does go into it. But the, I mean the comments on this post were just other worldly and there was another AI post recently as well that I saw and, and I mean, so we’ve got people out there who are like… CMOs want agencies to reduce their fees because they’re using AI. We’ve got a whole discussion around, well, we need to be transparent and tell every possible use of AI that we have and be really clear about it with our clients. This is how we’re using it exactly. And this is, and, and people say you can’t do hourly billing anymore because of AI, and so you must go to value-based pricing. And I mean, just all of this stuff. Take a breath, folks. Take Gini Dietrich: Yes. It’s a breath. Okay. Chip Griffin: Again, it is a tool, it is a valuable tool, but it is a tool. Gini Dietrich: That’s right. Chip Griffin: And it doesn’t mean that you just throw everything out and start over on either side of the agency client relationship. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Yeah, that’s absolutely right. I, I say this all the time, you know, like in other podcasts that I’m being interviewed on or webinars, whatever, the strategy stays the same. The best practices stay the same. The tools have changed and the tools continue to change. The tools have changed dramatically in the last 15 years. Use the tools to make you more effective and more productive. But like I said, the surgeon is still going to charge you what they charge you for brain surgery. Regardless of how fast the imaging is, regardless of how fast you get your MRI results back, like the, it doesn’t matter. Your expertise is over here in the surgeon bucket, not in the imaging bucket. So remember that. Like the, the stuff that you can do just because you’re faster at creating drafts or you’re faster at predicting outcomes or you’re faster at results reporting does not mean that the real value in what you provide in strategy, the creativity, the innovation, the ideas, all of that is what they’re paying for. They’re not paying for the output over here. Chip Griffin: And we need to take ourselves out of the mindset that, that the AI is coming in and so we need to protect what we have. Instead, we should be thinking about how can we elevate, how can we produce more and better results for our clients? How can we be more effective, not just how do we protect our piece of the pie? Keep doing things the way we always have. If you wanna keep doing things the way you always have, yes, you will suffer in this new environment. Absolutely. You absolutely have to grow and adapt and figure out how this helps you. But that’s no different than, as we’ve said before, you know back 30 years ago when we shifted from faxes to emails. Right, right. That made you more efficient in being able to communicate with other people. Yes. You didn’t have to be on the phone. You didn’t have to send a fax. Yes. Or a telegram or any of these kinds of things. And yes, I’m old enough to have received telegrams, so in fact, when I worked on Capitol Hill, we would get a delivery of telegrams on a regular basis. Gini Dietrich: For real? Chip Griffin: For real. For real. It was still a way. In the early 1990s, that was still a way that people communicated with Congress. They would send telegrams to express their opinions. Gini Dietrich: All right. Chip Griffin: You know, I don’t know why, but Gini Dietrich: I hate you. Stop. Please vote differently. Stop. Chip Griffin: I mean, the thing is, today if you, if you mention a telegram, people are like, what is that? They don’t. Gini Dietrich: Right. Right. Chip Griffin: They don’t, they, they, they’ve never even heard of it, you know? Yeah. Fax machine, they can at least maybe kind of halfway visualize. Yeah. I was watching a conversation on TV and there were some young people and, and someone mentioned a modem and, and that was completely beyond anybody. They didn’t have the concept of having to actually dial up to access the internet. Gini Dietrich: Right, right. Chip Griffin: Things like that. But, but I’ll ask before we continue to date ourselves by talking about all of this old technology, we need to think about how to use this new technology in order to improve what we are doing. And it is not simply about, you know, running around and, and telling people what brand of shampoo you use, because that’s how you wanna be transparent to your clients. They may ask you how you’re using AI and you might wanna have a general conversation about it. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely, yes. Chip Griffin: But for God’s sake, you do not need to be sending them an email and saying, by the way, I used AI to proofread this, or I used AI to create the first draft of this. Those are not things, unless there is some specific requirement in your contract, and please do not agree to those. But if there is a specific requirement in the contract or if there’s some special circumstance with the kind of work that’s being done. There’s always the exceptions to the rule, but 99% of you should not feel compelled to do it, and in general shouldn’t do so in detail if asked, because that’s just like telling them what kind of shampoo you use. It just doesn’t matter. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. You know, Sharon Toerek at Legal + Creative has a really good AI toolkit. I can’t remember how much it costs, but for it’s, it’s affordable for agency owners to download it and then understand like, what, and you can pick and choose like. What paragraphs or information you should include in your master standard agreement, what you might wanna include in your statements of work, but it’s, again, it’s not like we use it forever to draft this blog post. It’s really general, like we use AI. We, we use green and yellow information from our clients. We never use critical, confidential, red information ever. You know, it’s general kinds of things that you can insert into those, that documentation to help be transparent that you are using AI, and I think today people are, that’s not a surprise, like everybody’s using it. Right? But not having to, to be really specific about what kind of shampoo you’re using. Chip Griffin: Right. And, and you have to be really careful about this because you have to think about how does this stand up over time? Because you don’t wanna be going and, and having to revise your master services agreement, right? So, so, you know, my general advice as a non-lawyer is that you should put as little as possible to tick the boxes in there. So that you have the flexibility to adjust and adapt and do things differently over time. Because the reality is AI is baked into almost all of the software that we use now. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Yep. Chip Griffin: In one form or another. Yep. Sometimes it’s pretty much just lip service, but a lot of times it’s more substantive. And so, you know, are we now in the business that we’re gonna have to try to disclose every little, you know, we, we use Lightroom to go edit a photo that we’re putting on the website and, and we use it to remove a piece of garbage in the background. Well, that’s technically AI that did that. Do we feel like we need to now go and, and report to the client that we used AI to remove a trash can that was in the background of the environmental portrait that we took, that we’re gonna put on their website? I don’t think so. Gini Dietrich: Right? I don’t think they care. And neither should we. No. And like MuckRack or you know, one of the other media databases, if you use it, there’s AI baked into that. Do you have to say, well, I use a media database and the AI helps me do like that, that’s ridiculous. Should you be transparent about saying you use AI? Of course, but I think to your point, you don’t have to get into the nitty gritty. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, and, and I think that that saying you use AI is fine, but, you know, getting into the nitty gritty is sort of like explaining to a client, whether you’re using a landline or a mobile phone to reach out to reporters. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. They’re technically different technologies. They, they, the signals get there in very different ways. I could imagine there’s probably some weird client out there who’d rather you didn’t use a cell phone ’cause they don’t want to go on up into the atmosphere and they just want it on the, the hard line, the wires, whatever. It doesn’t matter. So you don’t need to get to that level of detail again. No. You not in, in, in special circumstances, which most of them don’t apply to most of you. Gini Dietrich: Right, right, right, right. Yeah. So I would visit Legal + Creative website and, and look at that AI toolkit. Of course, have a conversation with Sharon if you need something more. Because she’s, she, they work exclusively with, with agencies and are great on that, since you and I are not attorneys.  But I do wanna go back to the values based, hourly based, retainer kind of idea that, okay, so if, let’s say for shits and giggles. We, we have a client that’s $5,000 a month, and in the past we would use all of that budget on, you know, executing their webinar, taking the transcript, and creating social assets and blog assets. You know, putting some money behind page to amplify it to get more registrations there. Well, now AI can do most of that, right? Does that mean that we should reduce our retainer or does it mean that there’s probably other things that we could focus on to help that organization’s growth and use the extra retainer for that? Those kinds of things. I think that’s the conversation that you should be having internally and with your clients is, yeah, it’s made us more productive. You know, this list of stuff over here that we haven’t been able to get to because we haven’t had time. Let’s start. Check, check. Checking these off the list. Chip Griffin: I mean, the vast majority of agencies don’t have any shortage of ideas for things that they could Right. Implement with their clients. And, and most clients don’t have any shortage of things that they would like to see their agency do. Right. So, so rather than simply trying to protect what you have and, and doing the bare minimum to fulfill the existing checklist, find ways that you can continue to enhance and improve. And, and I think you mentioned webinars and, and webinars and podcasts are a great example because 10 or 15 years ago, you had to, it took a lot of work and you kind of did the bare minimum to get those things edited, produced, distributed. Nowadays because of AI and, and AI even before, you know, the current AI fad, things like automated transcription that came in mm-hmm. Within the last decade, which now gets classified as AI, didn’t get classified as AI when it was first done. But you know, that’s an argument for another day about how we define things. If you’re able to now produce transcripts, now it’s pretty standard for webinars and podcasts to have a transcript available. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: 15 years ago, you had to pay someone to do it. And so That’s right. It was not the kind of thing that was done routinely and, and now we can produce those kinds of things. We can edit things a lot more easily. The platform that we use for this podcast. It uses AI to do automatic camera switching. For those of you who watch the video, it cleans up the audio so that, you know, we can’t hear all the background noises in our various offices. And, and those are all great things and improve the quality of the product that we’re putting out for you, but also that you can put out for your clients. Focus on those things. Elevate the game. It’s not just about kind of doing the bare minimum. If you do that, absolutely, you’re gonna run into problems, Gini Dietrich: of course, Chip Griffin: but find those other opportunities and say to your clients, you know, here’s something else we can do for you. Here’s a way we can get better results from what we’re already doing. Whether that’s by adding a transcript to it or being faster to get something published, or having the time to go pursue a third webinar or some other brand new idea that you weren’t able to do. That’s how you continue to demonstrate value to your clients, and that’s how you continue to not just protect revenue, but actually grow it. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And you know, and I’m sure listeners know too, that I’m a big fan of quarterly planning. So instead of doing a big annual plan, you meet with your clients every quarter. You talk about what worked, what didn’t, and what, what things you should focus on for the next quarter. Not only does it help you stay aligned with the business goals more effectively, but it also, in most cases, get, gets you more revenue or more retainer because they’re like, oh, we gotta focus on this. And yeah, they were great results from that. And you’re not having those conversations once a year. You’re having them four times a year. Right. So a big, big fan from that perspective. But I think what that allows you to do from an AI perspective is say, Hey, listen, we’re able to save 25% of our time, and I know this, this, and this, have been on the priority list that have, that keep moving down because of, you know, all these other things. Of these three, what can we bring up to the forefront for the next quarter? And you start to have those conversations where you’re part of the business planning and the business continuity. And the business workflow so that you know, you don’t have the… it happens more effectively and you don’t have to have the, gosh, we’re out of scope, or we overbuilt, we over serviced last year. It’s a, a continuous conversation that happens all between all of you and there’s no conflicts in it, and it’s really strategic and, and clients begin to see you more as, you know, someone they can count on without asking you to reduce your fees because you’re using AI. Chip Griffin: And that ongoing conversation is, is so important. It’s so critical. And one of the things that really bothered me about one of these LinkedIn threads was, was really a very much an an us versus them kind of thing. Yeah. Whether you are on the client side or the agency side, the agencies are looking to protect revenue. The clients are looking to cut costs. Have actual mutual conversations with each other and figure out how you can work together. And I’m not gonna use the word partners because I don’t like that word. Gini Dietrich: I know, I, I avoided it too, because I know you don’t. Chip Griffin: As I have said repeatedly on this show, you are not partners with your clients. You do not share in the risks and rewards. You have similar things. You can be aligned, you can work together. In any case, figure out those ways to work together. If either side of this relationship is viewing it as us versus them. I need to maximize my revenue. I need to maximize my profit, or I need to keep my costs as low as possible. I need to get as much from the agency as possible. That’s not a healthy relationship. No. And that is not gonna lead to the same kind of success where one, where you have regular ongoing conversations and quarterly planning or semi-annual planning, or even annual planning, which a lot of agencies don’t do with their clients ’cause they just charge forward Gini Dietrich: fair Chip Griffin: on autopilot. Yep. And hope that they don’t get noticed and that the revenue keeps coming in the door. So true. I mean, that’s, that’s reality. Yes. I mean, a, a lot of agencies just sort of take that head down attitude because, you know, as, as soon as you poke your head up above the fence line. You know. Yes, there’s the possibility that you can increase the size of your relationship or build or, or strengthen the, the quality of the relationship with your client. But there are also risks involved with that because you’re drawing attention to yourself, and particularly in larger organizations, it can be kind of easy to skate. So sure, I do understand there’s a risk to it, but if you’re having those conversations, you’re more likely to build that strong relationship with more of your clients, which will lead to better results. Even if occasionally putting your head up above the fence line causes a problem. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And you know when you, when your client is going into meetings with the CFO and they’re saying, we’ve gotta cut X amount of dollars. This agency is a big piece of that. The client stands up for you and stands up for that because they can’t do their job without you. And they know that because of the ongoing relationship and, and that you’ve been building and the ongoing planning that you’ve been doing with them. If you’re just keeping your head down and hoping they don’t notice you year, year after year, it’s gonna be a lot harder for them to stick up for you. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. I mean, and, and I think this is sort of a, a common theme for how I view AI and everything that I do, which is that you’ve gotta have that intersection of the technology from the AI, but the, the human, yes. Not just expertise, but the, the ability to, to engage with other humans. Yes. If you put the best of both of those together, that’s where you will achieve the best results for both sides of the agency client relationship. And ultimately that should be what we’re looking for, right? Right. That if, if you are truly in it to be long-term successful, you want it to work for both sides. And it shouldn’t be one of these things where we’re having constant fights about transparency or pricing or these kinds of things because you know, we’re just looking out for our own self-interests. If you align yourselves well, you will get good things coming to you Gini Dietrich: every time, every single time. So do that Chip Griffin: 99% of the time. Let’s, let’s, let’s admit that, alright, fine. There are times most of the time where you do everything right, everything you know, you, and it just doesn’t work out. Gini Dietrich: Fair. Chip Griffin: That’s life. Gini Dietrich: That’s fair. That is life. Yeah. So I agree Chip Griffin: that’s life. And that’s this podcast Gini Dietrich: 99% of the time. And that’s this podcast. Chip Griffin: So we’ve completed 99% of this podcast with the final 1%. We will sign off. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss a Reddit post about an agency leader going MIA and the repercussions for the team. They elaborate on the importance of communication, perception, and flexibility for agency owners. The conversation includes personal anecdotes from both hosts, highlighting the need for frequent touchpoints, setting clear expectations, and maintaining a balance between taking personal time and being present for the team. They also stress the significance of transparency during challenging times and the benefits of empowering employees to reduce bottlenecks. Key takeaways Gini Dietrich: “As an owner, I think that you absolutely should be taking time to do things that you’re passionate about. But not at the expense of the business, or of your employees.” Chip Griffin: “If it’s industry events that are causing you to be absent, make sure that the team understands why and how that fits into the bigger picture.” Gini Dietrich: “If you’re consistently having weekly one-to-one meetings, if you’re consistently communicating with them, these things will be mitigated just by the mere fact that you’re talking to your team.” Chip Griffin: “And just as important as talking with your team, you’ve got to listen to them.” Related Weekly 1:1 meetings make a big difference for your agency Building trust and letting your team shine View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. What is happening? Chip Griffin: That effect really only works if you’re watching this. Gini Dietrich: I don’t know what just happened. Chip Griffin: I, I slid off screen. I went MIA. Gini Dietrich: Oh my gosh. So I don’t even, that was, that was, I think, the best, the best intro we’ve ever had. You just left the screen. And even though I knew what the topic was, I was like, what is happening right now? Chip Griffin: So it’s just, it’s my way of encouraging listeners to become viewers because. It just, it completely loses the impact of, if you only listened to that portion of it. I, I don’t know how much impact you have, but from watching it either, but, you know, at least it’s, at least you understand what’s going on. Gini Dietrich: He literally just left the screen. Chip Griffin: I left the screen. But no, we are, we are, we were inspired by a Reddit post and we haven’t gone to the Reddit well for quite some time. Gini Dietrich: We haven’t, no. Yeah. Chip Griffin: So we decided to go back to Reddit and see what people were talking about. And so there is a relatively recent thread there where an agency employee says the principle of their firm has gone completely MIA, leaving them to do all of the work and feeling abandoned by the owner. That seems like a worthy topic to be discussing. Gini Dietrich: I feel like the answer is don’t. Don’t do that. Don’t ghost your business or your employees. Chip Griffin: Don’t ghost your business. And here we go, we’re done. Thanks for listening. Gini Dietrich: The end. Don’t do that. Chip Griffin: No, but I, I think it’s, it is, as owners, we sometimes overlook how our actions can be perceived by those who work for us. So it’s, it’s not necessarily being completely MIA, which obviously we would discourage. But your general availability, for example, can play into your team’s perceptions or your client’s perceptions of what your business is like. Absolutely, and we all, we certainly encourage owners to take all of the, the freedom that comes with being a business owner, don’t just take on all of the risk and stress. And so you need to have flexibility. And you shouldn’t feel compelled to, to necessarily, you know, work 9 to 5 every day exactly. You should absolutely build some flexibility in to what you do because that is honestly one of the perks of being an owner. and absolutely, increasingly a perk of being an employee these days. But, you know, that’s a conversation for a separate day. You know, so, but we also have to be mindful of how this can be perceived, particularly by our team members, but also our clients. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think you, you’re absolutely right, like taking advantage of the flexibility that you can build in for yourself is one of those things. And I think there are lots of agency owners who do things like maybe they’re giving back to the industry by teaching, or perhaps they’re volunteering for PRSA or IABC or one of those, right? Or, you know, doing something like that that may be tangentially related to what we do, but not taking, taking you away from the business. And I think that those are things are good. I think that you absolutely, those are things that you’re passionate about, that you should absolutely be doing those things. But not at the expense of the business or, or of your employees. Because if, if your employees are feeling like they’re running the agency and they can’t get you to make decisions or to have one-to-ones or be present, that’s a problem. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And look, I mean, this is something that I have struggled with a lot over the years. Not because I just go off and sit in the mountains and, you know, hike and relax and all that kind of stuff. It’s, it’s because I’ve often been running more than one business. Mm-hmm. And so, inevitably one of them will typically get busier than another. And so those involved in the ones that are less busy at the moment may feel abandoned at times, by me. And so I, it’s something I’ve had to be particularly aware of and making sure that, that I’m safeguarding against being too absent from a particular business. Sometimes you’ve got a business in, in my case, I would’ve, businesses that were running really well and smoothly and the team was executing and so I didn’t feel like I needed to be there. But the perception can be very different from the team side, right? Where they feel like, well, why are you ignoring us? Right? And the answer might be, because you’re doing such a great job, I don’t really need, I don’t need, yeah. To be there and I’m not adding the value. But unless you’re communicating that to them, they don’t know that. So I think there’s, there’s two things you need to be mindful of here. One is the perception, and two is your communication strategy around what you’re doing. If it’s industry events and things like that that are causing you to be absent, make sure that the team understands why and how that fits into the, the bigger picture. Because that makes it easier for them to understand and less likely for them to think, oh, well, Chip’s just on another junket. Here he goes, you know, he, he’s off to San Diego or Miami and you know, it’s the middle of the winter. Of course he is. Why not? And, and, those are things that are, that are important to factor in because it can have a meaningful impact on your team’s performance. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when I was on book tour both times, I was absent from the business every week. I mean, one, I think 2014 I traveled 50 weeks out of the year. So it was extremely hard for me to be on book tour and speaking and business development while also running the business. And my employees. I am fairly confident, felt the, felt the brunt of that. And I don’t think I probably handled it the best way either. I probably shouldn’t have taken on that much travel. It helped the business grow significantly for sure, because I was also doing business development as part of it, but they definitely felt abandoned in that they were running the agency in my absence. And that I was just off traveling the world and having a great time and Right. That was their perception. Right. So I think you do, I think communicating that is right and there are certain things that you still have to do. Like I should have, continued with one-to-ones. And because I was traveling and I was speaking and all that, I just sort of let those slide. I should have continued with all team meetings at least biweekly, if not weekly. So I, I let those things slide because I was traveling and I was exhausted and you know, in many cases I was around the world and so time zones were, were crappy too. But I think that’s right. I think that’s the right approach is that you still have to do certain things. If, if you’re quote unquote, abandoning your agency because you’re doing something else that may or may not be helpful for the agency, or be because you want you, you’re taking advantage of flexibility, which is fine too. Communicate that, but also continue sort of the process things like one-to-one, right, so that people feel like you’re still involved. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I think that’s key is, is putting in that bit of additional effort to show some sense of normalcy to the rest of the team when you’re, you’re doing those kinds of things. And you know, I suspect that if, if we talked to the owner of, of this person’s agency, they probably wouldn’t describe themselves as MIA. They would probably describe themselves as busy with a variety of different things, some of which may be beneficial to the agency directly or indirectly or, or what have you. Or, or they may say, as I did, You’ve got this, I don’t need to be there. Mm-hmm. But making sure that you have those regular touch points with your team can certainly help. I think the other thing to keep in mind is that, and we’ve talked about this before, is that you do have to lead by example. And that means also understanding how the example you are setting is received by your team. So for example, if part of your perception of being MIA is that, that you disappear a couple afternoons a week for your kids’ sporting events. If you are not enabling your team to do that, maybe not with the same frequency, but at least periodically. That can lead to a real disconnect because why is it okay for you and not for me? And look, there, there are certainly things that are okay for the owner to do and not for employees to do. Yes, yes. But the more of those things that happen, the more frequently with which they happen, the larger the gap is between what you can do and what your team can do, the more it tends to underscore things. And, and so you do need to be mindful of that perception because your team will often magnify things beyond what you even realize. And that can then lead to morale issues and, and other things that, that can crop up. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think that’s right. You know, I, am most productive really early in the morning. My brain is really fresh and works really well creatively in the morning. So I get up and I work early in the morning just on the, like, the stuff that takes thinking and deep thought, deep work kinds of things. Then I, you know, do the kid thing and I get school off, get ’em off to school and all that, and then I come home and I work out. So. I am at my desk really early, but then not again until 9:30 or 10. And for a while there people didn’t think that was fair. And I was like, okay, well I’ll see you at 4:30 in the morning then. Right, right, right. But what I discovered that after I got over my smart assness. Is that really giving them the opportunity to do those things throughout the day. As long as their work gets done and they’re meeting deadlines and you know, all of the things that matter, and clients aren’t requesting their time, then that’s fine. So I have one person who leaves at 1:50 every day. He goes to the gym at 2, he’s back by 3:15. Okay. That’s totally fine, because he’s doing his job, he’s getting his work done. So giving them the same level of flexibility that you feel comfortable with, I think is an important thing to be able to do as well, because then they don’t feel like you’re getting all this, these advantages and they’re not. Chip Griffin: Right. And I, and I think that it’s important to, to factor these things even more during tough times for your agency. So, you know, if, if the, the business is struggling and so you’ve, you know, maybe you’ve cut back on resources in order to, to save expense. And so maybe you’re asking your team to do a little bit more. That’s the wrong time for you to be perceived to be doing a bit less. Gini Dietrich: Right, right. Chip Griffin: Or, or immediately after layoffs. You know, you show up with a brand new Ferrari or something like that, Gini Dietrich: perhaps Chip Griffin: a bit tone deaf. And, and again, it, it doesn’t necessarily mean that, you know, if you’ve gone through tough times, or are going through tough times as an agency that. That you, you know, you have to, you know, appear to be a pauper. That is not, that is not what I’m telling you. However, you do need to, to understand what the perception will be if you all of a sudden go on a two week vacation to the Alps while you’re taking away resources from your team and making them work, you know, 50, 60 hours a week just to make ends meet within the business. And, and those are not the kinds of things that you wanna do because it does make it appear as if you have abandoned, not necessarily the business, but at least the team members. And that is not how you get the best performance. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think the tone deafness and the, the perception piece of this is extraordinarily important. So I, we have a client who about two years ago had to lay off… It was about 35% of their team. And right before they did it, their CEO went on a three week European cruise, all around Europe was gone for three weeks and then he came home and did this. And I remember saying to him, this is a bad idea. Let’s either do it before you go. Or let’s wait a month or six weeks after you get back, like right after you get back is a bad idea. He did not listen, he did it as soon as he got back. He didn’t wanna do it before and he couldn’t wait, and so he did it as soon as he got back and there was one person who, let’s just say rightfully so threw that in his face when he let him go, and then they ended up suing. And I don’t know, it’s, you know, I don’t know if that that person will win that, that suit lawsuit, but you’re still having to go through the process of being sued and, you know, having to provide documentation and things like that. And, you know, he could still take the vacation, he could still take the three week cruise. Sure. Right. But the, the timing of it is what was a problem. And so I think we have to really think about that. I think we have to think about, you know, what kind of car we drive and, you know, if people know what kind of home we live in. And, you know, certainly we have those advantages because we own the company. But at the same time, there are things that people perceive, rightly or wrongly about how you’re running the business and how they’re being treated when, when they have that kind of information about you. Chip Griffin: Right. And it’s, it’s not about, you know, living your, your life differently necessarily, right? Because of these things. It’s, it’s, it’s the awareness of them, right? And trying to figure out, you know, how to, how to either communicate around it or make other decisions that, that don’t make it worse at least. And, and preferably even mitigate it to some degree. And, and this is obviously not the topic for today’s show, but you know, whenever you’ve got bad news for your team, don’t sit on it. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: I mean, you, you, you’ve gotta get it out there because people will find out, and, and the sooner that people have bad news, the easier it is for them to make a course correction because of it. And, and the more that you sit on it, if you know that you’re going to have to lay somebody off, just get it done right. Just get it done Gini Dietrich: right. Chip Griffin: Anytime you’ve got bad news, it, it, it stresses you out. It stresses them out. If they find out that you knew it a month ago, two months ago and didn’t tell them so. Just rip that bandaid off and, and move ahead with it. But again, not, not really the topic for today’s conversation, but I, I feel remiss if I don’t make that point. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think you’re right. I mean, it’s, it goes to your point earlier, right? Which is communicate, communicate, communicate, communicate. And if you’re having consistent touch bases, you know, you and I both, both believe in weekly one-to-ones. If you’re consistently doing that, if you’re consistently communicating with them, these things will be mitigated just by the fact, the mere fact that you’re talking to your team. So ensure that you’re doing those things even while you’re doing some of the other things that you might be passionate about or, you know. Have, are enjoying the flexibility with, because that’s the right thing. You know, some people to your point, want to be at their kids’ events and you know, school is not made for working parents. So sometimes that means 2:45 to 5 is they’re gone. Right. You also don’t see them working late into the night or early in the morning because you’re not at your desk at that time. So you have to understand there are things that, that those owners are going to do to, to quote unquote, make up the time where maybe our employees don’t see that. So communicate, just talk to them, tell them what’s going on. Chip Griffin: Yep. Yeah. And, and it’s, you know, just as important it’s to, to talk with ’em. You’ve got to listen to them. Right? Right. Because again, to my point that this owner probably would not describe themselves as MIA, you need to be, you know, tuned into your team so that you can pick up on perhaps that’s the perception. So if, if you finding that they’re saying, Hey, you know, I, I’m not getting the answers I need, or I’m not getting the information I need, or when do you think you might actually be around for this? Or, you know, kind of listen to some of those things and particularly the tone of some of those things and, and key into them so that you can spot some of these issues before they really become major problems for you to deal with. Because if, if you can sense from these conversations and through the listening that there are things that need to be addressed, you can take care of it a lot easier now than you can six months down the road when it reaches a boiling point. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that’s, that’s the exact correct thing to do. And you know, I think if your employees are feeling like they’ve been ghosted or abandoned, that’s, that is definitely a you issue. And that needs to be solved pretty fast. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And you, and you’ve gotta encourage the team to open up to you as much as possible. Sure. I mean, you do sign the paycheck, so you’ve gotta be realistic about how much candid feedback and such you’ll get. But one of the things that, that I have always encouraged my team members to do is to, to feel free to beat me about the head and shoulders if I’m not getting them what they need in a timely enough fashion. And do I believe that they will consistently do that? No. The vast majority of the employees I’ve had haven’t done that consistently, but they know it’s an option to them, so they do tap into that. As and when needed. I’ve had a handful of employees who are actually really good about it, and by really good, I mean, really kind of annoying about it because like the minute I was a minute late in getting them the feedback that I had promised, I, you know, get the, the knock on my, my office door. Hey, you know, I, I need this. But frankly, that was helpful, right? It, it, at least it was, it was direct. It got them what they needed and, and so you need to be listening for those cues so that you can spot them and, and hopefully try to improve your own behavior in that going forward. Whether that’s by setting different expectations of the timeliness with which you can get to it because you’re traveling, because you’ve got these other commitments or whatever. Or simply by, you know, being a little bit quicker to turn those things around. Gini Dietrich: Yes. That is one of the most, I think that’s one of the most challenging things is that piece of it is being the bottleneck on, on certain kinds of things. So. Figuring out ways to communicate that effectively. And sometimes you promise something, like, I could promise something to you by Wednesday, but I don’t know, based on what my schedule is right at this moment. Right, right. But there’s gonna be client things that come up. There are gonna be HR issues that come up that I am not at all expecting, and all of a sudden my whole week is thrown into chaos where there’s no physically possible way I can now get it to you by Wednesday because of all this other stuff and some of that I can’t communicate to the employee. Right? Right. So I just have to say like, some things came up. I’m really sorry. Can I get an extra 48 hours? Or whatever it happens to be. Right? So I think those are the kinds of conversations we have to be really understanding about, because the perception is that you’re just ignoring them and you’re sitting at your desk drinking wine and painting your toenails. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I stopped painting my toenails a few years ago. But anyway, so, you know, but I think that along those lines, I think it’s, it’s important for you, excuse me, to, to be clear about what you actually need to be a bottleneck on. And so sometimes this can be a useful exercise to say, do I really need to, to review and approve this? Do I really need to edit this? If not, maybe that’s something that you can pass off. And so maybe the way that you solve some of those things is by passing it along and saying, you’ve got the authority to handle this now. I completely trust you on this. I don’t need to see this. You take it, you run with it. And, and I’ve often used those situations where I’m becoming an increasing bottleneck to try to figure out how do we change the process. So that I’m not. Either by involving me at a different stage or just taking me out of it altogether. Yep. Because, and that’s particularly true when I would find things where I was consistently just saying, yep, this is good. Yep, this is good. And, and I, and I didn’t feel the need any longer to keep going through that. And so you need to find those things, but also communicate why you are taking yourself outta that process. Because if you just take yourself out of it. That’s where you look like you’re going MIA. Right? If you say, look, I completely trust your judgment you’re doing, I don’t need to see this and you should usually include the caveat unless you want me to look at something, right? Because sometimes someone just feels more confident about, maybe there’s something they’re putting out and they just, they want your set of eyes on it. They just, they want that perspective. Sure. Don’t discourage them from doing that, but let them know that on a routine basis, that’s not necessary. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I think that’s really important too. So I think there are a few good takeaways from this, that this is not necessarily the, the topic of the day, but you know, breaking up that bottleneck, ensuring that your team is, is you’re consistently running the business from like a process perspective. I think that’s really smart. Communicating effectively is really smart. There was one other that you said our top, the podcast wasn’t about that I thought was really good. Shoot. Chip Griffin: Well, the beauty is people have the recording you, you can just hit rewind, go backwards. They can look at the transcript that Jen puts up on the website. I do that sometimes as well just to see what I said. Right. Figure, figure out, you know, so I’m consistent ish in my advice that I give. So, but in any case. Hopefully you have some, some things that you can use as tools so that you’re not perceived as MIA or if you have to be MIA. How to communicate more effectively and work with your team on it. And lots of bonus tips in here as well, because we just can’t help ourselves and we’ll follow whatever path we might find we do over the course of the conversation, at least after I come back on camera and on work so that I can participate. So with that, I’m gonna go, I guess I’m not MIA because you know that we’re wrapping up and so it will make sense when I leave at the end of this. But I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the impact of AI on small agencies, focusing on the high expectations and possible disappointments it poses. They reference a recent article from The Atlantic, which highlights a study showing that AI can sometimes decrease efficiency. They caution against overhauling business models based solely on AI’s current capabilities, stressing that while AI can assist with tasks and improve efficiency, it cannot fully replace human judgment and creativity. The conversation extends to the challenges of integrating AI without sacrificing the development of new talent and ensuring that the evolving role of AI adds value rather than causing disruption. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “It’s not about AI being either the panacea or evil, it’s that we may be adjusting our models too much too quickly.” Gini Dietrich: “AI is great for some things but it cannot replace human beings yet.” Chip Griffin: “It is incredibly likely that all of the providers of AI are going to start ratcheting up the prices. And so what looks today like a huge cost savings likely may not be in just a few short years.” Gini Dietrich: “How do we bring new college graduates into the workforce, and what are we teaching them?” Resources Just How Bad Would an AI Bubble Be? (The Atlantic) Related Should AI upend your agency business model today? Using AI the right way for agency biz dev CWC 10: Neville Hobson on AI and machine learning in PR View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I am Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I think, you know, I think AI is gonna solve all of my problems. We’ve said this before, but I, I really, I’m gonna change my whole business model around it. Gini Dietrich: I think you should fire everybody. You could fire me as your co-host. AI can just do it for you. Chip Griffin: You know, I mean, I wonder if the AI would talk back less. Gini Dietrich: Probably, although if I program it, I’ll program it for you so that it, it talks back a sufficient amount. Chip Griffin: Excellent, excellent. Just, just what I need. Gini Dietrich: You’re welcome. Chip Griffin: Oh, at least, you know, maybe, maybe the AI wouldn’t yawn at me like you did just before we started recording, so Gini Dietrich: I shouldn’t even be tired either. I got nine hours of sleep last night. I don’t know what my problem is, Chip Griffin: I assume you were expressing your boredom with me. Gini Dietrich: No. Prior to the start of the show. No. Chip Griffin: I mean, usually it takes a couple minutes for most of our listeners to get that bored with me. So Gini Dietrich: no, I’m not bored with you. Chip Griffin: Okay. Gini Dietrich: Just sleepy. Chip Griffin: Just sleepy. Well, I’m with you on that. Alright. But we are gonna talk about AI and in particular, there was a good article in the Atlantic recently, that is consistent with some of the things that I’ve been saying and talking with clients and, and I think it’s, it’s helpful to think about. And that is whether or not there is an AI bubble and what it means. And it’s not, in my view, it’s not so much about a macro AI bubble, sort of like we think about, you know, the, the internet bubble in the early 2000s and, and I think there is certainly some of that, but that’s really more about investing in some of the businesses and infrastructure and that kind of thing. But I think for small agencies, there is the potential for an AI bubble that comes about because we all get too focused on either what kind of threat AI is or what kind of opportunity AI is. And we’ve said before on this, we’ve talked about AI a lot, so I, I was a little reluctant to come back to it, but I think that thinking about it in in these terms may be helpful. Because it’s not, it’s not about AI being either the panacea or evil, it’s that we may be adjusting our models too much too quickly because some of these things may not quite be there. And in particular, the Atlantic had a great example and it was from a study that was done with some software developers. And the software developers were given AI to help them do their jobs. And the purpose of the study was to try to figure out was it a 20% efficiency improvement, 40%, 60%, what was it? And ultimately what they discovered was it was actually, it decreased their efficiency. Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: Because part of the challenge with AI, and I, I’m sure many of us have seen this, is when it works well, God, it works great. It just, and, and we’re impressed and we’re, we sit there and say, that’s amazing. But we, we don’t factor in the times it doesn’t work and the times we have to argue with it and fight. Right? And so if, if we’re go, and I, I mean I do this a lot with, I mean, maybe it shows something about me that I argue with the computer. I was trying out Gamma recently, which is a, a service that lets you build PowerPoint decks effectively. And I threw something in, just kind of randomly grabbed an outline, threw it in, and it actually did a really nice job of creating the first thing that I sent to it. And I’m like, that’s great. I’m like, okay, well can you make these modifications to it? And it just wouldn’t do it. It just, it, it kept, you know, I, I said, can we put, you know, my logo at the bottom of the slide, you know, in the footer. And so it puts it in, it’s like a quarter of the screen. I’m like, no, no. I said, can you make it smaller, Gini Dietrich: same size, just move it. Chip Griffin: And it’s like, great, that’s a great idea. Let’s make it smaller. And it gives it to me the exact same size. Oh. And it makes it completely unusable because obviously you don’t really want your company logo to take up a quarter of the slide. That’s just dumb. So I, I think we need to, to think about all of the effort that we’re putting into AI and factor that in when we’re thinking about our own efficiencies, because I’m afraid that some people may be changing their models too much, changing their pricing too much. Because they’re looking at the successful implementation of AI and not factoring in all of the challenges along the way. At least as it exists in September of 2025. Gini Dietrich: Gartner has their hype cycle, right? And so it looks at things from that perspective. And, you know, we get really excited. We’re human beings. We get really excited. There’s something. Coming. There’s like all this like, oh, that’s scary. We’re not gonna do anything. Then we get really excited about it. Then it dips down and then it comes back up before it’s like scalable and, and something that we use. The internet was one, email was one, social media was another, those kinds of things. Right. Well, in the hype cycle, AI is now in the trough of disappointment. So it’s in that section of the cycle where it’s like, oh. Maybe this isn’t gonna work so well. And you have companies like Salesforce who just laid off 30,000 people. Because they think AI is going to replace those human beings. And what they’re going to find in the trough of disappointment is that that’s not the case. And I think that we have to think about that. As you know, we’re certainly, I’m not laying off 30,000 people. You’re not laying off 30,000 people. I would imagine most of our listeners are not laying off 30,000 people. But you have to think about it from that kind of perspective of AI is great for some things. It cannot replace human beings yet. So when you think about how you’re using it, those are the kinds of things you have to consider. One of the things I say to my team all the time, I, I’ll get something from a team member and I’ll be like, did you use AI for this? And my favorite is when they’re like, oh, just to outline. I’m like, really? ’cause on the third page, the sixth bullet point, it’s definitely AI. And I know that because you didn’t, it’s, it’s talking to you, right? And you didn’t edit it. So it can’t replace people yet. And I think though, that’s what I continue to tell my team is you can absolutely use it, but you have to use your brain and you have to edit the work that you’re getting because as a first draft, it’s crap. It’s not good. So we have to like take all of this with a grain of salt and make sure that we’re using it effectively. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, and I think that, you know, part of the challenge is if, if we say, okay, well because of this we can now, you know, churn out social or blog posts or graphics or whatever that much faster and all that and, we’re building our models, we’re building our staffing models around it. We’re building our pricing models around it. It becomes a problem. Yeah. Yep. When we realize that it’s not quite as efficient, it’s still good. It’s still helpful. We still ought to be using it and some of this stuff will continue to get better. Most of it will continue to get better, and so at some point it will get there. It’s sort of like during that, that first wave of the internet bubble in the early 2000s, there were plenty of businesses that came out, got a lot of attention, and then failed miserably only to see 10 or 15 years later an almost identical business come up and blossom because now it was time for it. The technology was there, the market was there, and so, so some of these things, it’s not that they’re not a good idea, it’s just that they’re not quite fully baked yet. And as, as particularly as small businesses, we need to be careful about how heavily we lean into some of these things without understanding what the risk of that is and, and understanding whether it is truly everything that we believe it is in our, in our happiest moment. And, and, you know, with the troughs of disappointment and the, the peak, I forget what the, what the peak is called, but you know, the ups and downs, we’re all gonna feel those. But, but when we’re building business models and strategies for our agencies, we need to think about that in a little bit more of a level line as opposed to to riding the waves or the dips too much because that’s where we start to make bad decisions. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and I think we, you see this on the, on the web all the time, right? You have people who jump onto the next wave, hoping that they’re gonna get that upswing of popularity, success, whatever it happens to be before it goes down. And then you have, you see ’em jump on the next one and the next one and the next one. First of all, that’s a crappy way to live. Like, ugh. The constant like yin and yang and ups and downs and no agency owner should live like that. But secondly, you have to really think about what are we strategically trying to do? And I will tell you, I, I mean, I’m sure it’s clear, but I love AI. I love it. I think it has made me more efficient, it’s made me more productive. You know what it’s done more than anything? It’s allowed me to stop procrastinating. Because when I have something really challenging, I tend, in the past, I tend to procrastinate it, put it off. It’s a big project. It’s, I know it’s gonna take me time to get started, and so I, I put it off. I put it off. I put it off. I’m also highly deadline driven, so if you tell me it’s due in 12 hours, it’ll get done. If you tell me it’s due in four weeks. I’ll do it the last 12 hours. Right. So that’s just how I, my personality. So what it has done is it has allowed me to say, okay, this is a huge project. I’m, I’m gonna take 15 minutes just to outline the steps so that I can get it done more effectively. I don’t procrastinate anymore because that allows me to at least get it into my workflow and get things accomplished. That’s where it’s made me most, most efficient. So I think we have to think about those kinds of things, like how are we bringing it into our workflow to make us more productive and make us more efficient, but not replace the thinking or the creativity. Chip Griffin: Right. And I think the other thing that we need to keep in mind is that in uses like that, where it’s acting as our assistant, I think has a lot more utility, a lot more staying power. Mm-hmm. And will just continue to improve as, as we learn how to use the technology more effectively. And as the technology continues to evolve, I think the bigger challenge comes for agencies when they see this as something that can help them do things at scale. Yes. Right. So it’s not, it’s not assisting an individual, making them more effective, efficient, et cetera. But instead it is using it, as some companies are, to replace large numbers of human beings. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And I think that’s, it’s a risk for multiple reasons. One is the, you know, whether or not it is truly as good as you think it is and, and can do things without that level of supervision, intervention, et cetera, that we’re doing when we’re using it as an assistant. But we also need to keep in mind that as we all get sucked into this, it is incredibly likely, if not certain, that all of the providers of AI are going to start ratcheting up the prices. Sure. And so what looks today like a huge cost savings likely may not be. In just a few short years. And we’ve seen this before, we saw this in the early days of internet ads, for example, search ads. It used to be that you could, you could buy ads on, on Google search super cheap. Now, not so much. And it didn’t take all that long before it got to a place where it was so costly that it was starting to, to become much more similar to other advertising media. Right. And so you, you need to keep in mind that it may not ever get fully to the price of, you know, the, the same productivity of a full-time equivalent, cost the same in the end, but it’s gonna be a lot more than it is today. So if, if you see it today as an 80% savings, it may only be a 40% savings when all is said and done. And is that still okay? Would you still have uprooted your whole business model for that or not? And I can’t answer that for you, right? But I think you need to think those things through, before you invest too heavily. What’s that? Gini Dietrich: It depends. Chip Griffin: It depends. Everything depends. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I think you’re absolutely right. Like it’s just, you know what, there’s been a conversation both in a private Facebook group I’m in and in the Spin Sucks community of late, of how people are not hiring new college graduates anymore because it kind of does replace them. Like it does replace the research, the media list development, the initial pitches, things like that that you would have, you know, an intern or a young prof, a brand spanking new young professional do. So how do we, how do we continue that? But then how do we hire young professionals? ’cause we can’t not hire a brand new college graduate. Right. How do we bring them into the workforce and what are we, how are we teaching them? Are we teaching them to become AI prompt engineers? Are we teaching them to become better editors? Like what are we teaching them to do? Because AI can do a lot of that really basic stuff that an intern would would normally do. Chip Griffin: Absolutely. And, and I think that that, that becomes then a, an even bigger challenge for small agencies because small agencies have always struggled with the idea, do we hire seasoned professionals who are more expensive? Or do we hire more junior people who we can use more cost effectively? And this does tend to skew it more in, in terms of let’s, you know, let’s hire those more seasoned, more expensive people and we’ll rely on the AI for all the lower level stuff. But that may be a challenging business model to truly make work, in part because now you’ve got senior people who then have to, to manage in a much more hands-on way with the AI. A lot of that more basic stuff. And I would argue that it might be more worth looking at can you use the AI to improve the, the quality and output of more junior people, right? If, if you’re, if they’ve, if the junior people have an assistant, could they accelerate their own growth more quickly? And I don’t have the answer to whether that’s true or not, but it’s something that I would be interested in looking at if I were trying to scale up a small business as opposed to saying, okay, all the grunt work will be done by AI and we’ll hire just senior people, because that’s a very difficult business model to price correctly. Gini Dietrich: I also think it’s dangerous. I think it’s dangerous to hire as, as a senior professional, I think it’s dangerous to hire only, you know, seasoned professionals because you now you’re losing out on, you know, creativity, youth, you know, like all of the, the sort of like rosy colored glasses kinds of things that help a business grow. I think that’s, I think that’s really dangerous as well. You need, you need a balance. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And you wanna develop future leaders for your own. Yep. Business. You know, obviously it, you know, I don’t necessarily buy into the notion that we need to do it for the good of the PR and marketing community and, you know, we gotta give them opportunities because otherwise we won’t have them in the future. It, it really does need to be more selfish for your own business. But you can develop them within your own business so that you know, over the next, you know, four to six years, they become that seasoned professional who learns your way of doing things as an agency and can contribute in a more meaningful way to your own business. Gini Dietrich: I think it’s, I, like I said, I think it’s dangerous to, to rely on that. And to come full circle, it’s dangerous to rely on AI to replace human beings because that’s just, while it’s tempting, it’s just not where we are yet. Chip Griffin: No, I mean, look, I think there are, there are certain things that can be replaced by AI. So I’m not, I’m not sticking my head in the sand and saying, don’t, you know, don’t reduce any headcount. I, I think for most small agencies, probably AI is not gonna enable you to reduce headcount. It’s, it’s difficult for me to, you know, all the agencies that I’ve advised and looked at over the years, it’s hard to think of very many who could actually save even one FTE on the backs of what AI can do for them today. Yep, yep. It certainly, it certainly can make them more efficient. It certainly can open additional doors, could free up some time. But I, I have a very difficult time seeing any where it’s a one for one replacement. But there are certainly other industries, other kinds of business where it absolutely can help to reduce the headcount, but maybe not completely replace all of the headcount in a particular function area. Gini Dietrich: Well, to come back to the Atlantic article that you mentioned at the start, you know, it showed that it wasn’t, and you would think, you would think that AI would be really good at a developer’s job. At creating, you know, being able to do that because it’s not, there’s no creativity to it, right? And so you would think it would be really great at that. And it found that it wasn’t. It found that they were actually spending more time directing the AI and getting the information, getting the right kinds of things out of the AI that they needed than to just do it themselves. So you, we have to be really careful here and, and like I said, I’m a huge, huge fan. I love it. But it’s also not replacing any humans from my perspective. Chip Griffin: And look, I mean it ultimately, even though the, the models are very good at doing the coding for programmers, it’s also, it’s a double-edged sword because for an op-ed or something, 80% is probably good enough. For code? 80% isn’t good enough. You gotta get to a hundred percent because any bugs in there are gonna be a problem. Gini Dietrich: Yes, you do. Chip Griffin: And, and as someone who has written computer code before, I can tell you that, you know, even 98% ain’t all that good because you still need that other 2% and you’ll be chasing that, you know forever if you can’t figure out exactly where it is. So. You know, there are, there is a difference in the kinds of work that it’s doing. So in some ways it was a good test of it because it’s an area where it’s strong. On the other hand, I would also argue it may not be the best because there is very little margin for error in coding because you still have to get to a, a fixed result at the end, from the logic that you’ve put into place. Whereas in a written piece or a graphics piece, that’s good enough. Yeah. You’re, that crosses the threshold. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. 80% is good enough. That’s exactly right. Chip Griffin: And look, I, I mean, I think if we get to 80% good enough on this show, that’s probably, that’s probably sufficient. I mean, Gini Dietrich: I need to buy one of those sound machines so I can do like clapping and things for you. Yeah, I need that. Chip Griffin: There you go. So, I mean, let’s face it, some weeks for us, 50% is probably good enough. So, yep. Before, before we drop down below that 50% mark, though, I think we’ll, we’ll draw this episode to a conclusion. This has been the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And it depends.

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss the common practice of providing free proposals and baseline ideas to clients. They argue that professional service providers should charge for these services as doing so adds value and ensures a thorough diagnosis before providing solutions. They share personal experiences and compare the situation to doctors who would never prescribe treatment without proper tests. They emphasize the importance of understanding a client’s business through a paid discovery phase and making adjustments along the way to deliver effective results. Additionally, they discuss the risks of providing overly detailed plans in early stages, the benefits of quarterly assessments, and the importance of maintaining clear communication and trust with clients. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “You should not be in a position of having one phone call with a client or prospect and saying, yep, know what that problem is. Here’s how we’ll fix that, and here’s what it costs.” Gini Dietrich: “Quarterly planning helps build trust because it allows the client to be involved in the planning decisions and discussions and measurement to understand what’s working and what’s not.” Chip Griffin: “If you ever feel that you are in a position where your expertise is either not valued or you don’t feel comfortable delivering it, then you are in the wrong relationship and need to look elsewhere.” Gini Dietrich: “We have to create a prescription exactly for you and your business so that we can have success. And we can’t do that without spending 30 or 60 days with you and getting to know and understand your business.” Related What if agencies abandoned proposals and posted transparent pricing? The pros and cons of RFP’s for agencies Understanding the cost of agency business development Common mistakes agencies make when pursuing new business View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: Gini, you got me all wound up for today’s topic. And so I’m sort of frothing at the mouth here. And, I’m gonna try to control myself, but I, I’m not trying to do a funny opening ’cause I just got too amped up in the leadup. Gini Dietrich: Oh, okay, well good. Chip Griffin: And I was afraid, I was afraid of what I might say. Gini Dietrich: I like amped up Chip. That’s good. That’s good. Yeah. Chip Griffin: I’m trying, I’m trying to dial it down to keep it at a level where we don’t get kicked off of any of the platforms we’re on and my hate mail is limited to a minimum and all of that kind of stuff. Gini Dietrich: That doesn’t happen. Chip Griffin: No, that’s true. I don’t, I don’t get that. No. But Gini Dietrich: yeah, Chip Griffin: I’m surprised. I mean, I, I would think with some of the things that you and I say on this show, we would get some people who are like, I cannot believe you said that. Gini Dietrich: Maybe we do, and they just don’t report it to us. To the podcast platform. Chip Griffin: That’s true. Or maybe they include it one of the inane podcast pitches that we get that I just hit delete without actually reading. Gini Dietrich: Jeez Louise. It’s so bad. My favorite is when they pitch the FIR network and Shel Holtz forwards emails to the two of us and he is like, oh, here’s another prize. Chip Griffin: Yep. I mean, I can tell, I can tell most of them when they’re, when they’re really poorly targeted, because those usually come into my iCloud email address. Gini Dietrich: Oh, interesting. Chip Griffin: Which is what I’ve registered the podcast with for Apple Podcasts. Gini Dietrich: Got it. Chip Griffin: And, but it’s literally the only email I ever get on that account, so. Huh. So I know as soon as it comes in that they have not done any research because that email address is not published anywhere. I don’t use it for anything. Gini Dietrich: So how would they get it? Through one of the systems or through one of the platforms? Chip Griffin: I think so. It’s probably in the metadata somewhere. Yeah. Who knows? But Gini Dietrich: fascinating. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Yeah. Not, not a lot of smart podcast pitchers out there, unfortunately. Gini Dietrich: Well, unfortunately there’s not a lot of smart pitchers generally just based on my inbox and based on some of the private communities I’m in. Chip Griffin: Well, I mean, yes, and, and I do get, because of my various blogs and because I used to to have a political newsletter, I get an an insane number of actual pitches for people who think that I am proper media. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: But, but they are wildly, poorly targeted. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Yeah. Chip Griffin: And I’m tempted to say, look, I, I haven’t done food and beverage reporting for 15 years now, so… I still get a lot of political pitches. Gini Dietrich: Do you? Chip Griffin: I have not had a political newsletter since 2015. Wow. So stop. Just stop. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I get a lot of Chicago area stuff, which is fine, because I’m like, oh, well that’s cool, but I’ve literally never covered Chicago. Chip Griffin: Correct. Oh yeah. I get, I get all the New Hampshire stuff and like, oh, so and so got a grant. I don’t care. I mean, that’s Okay. Gini Dietrich: Great. Awesome. Chip Griffin: Thank you. Congratulations to them. But I don’t know what I’m gonna do with this information, so, right. Maybe go get a different list. Anyway. Alright, well now that we’ve ranted about things that have nothing to do, that have nothing to do Gini Dietrich: with, right, Chip Griffin: with, with our actual topic, what are we going to rant about today? Gini? Gini Dietrich: There was an interesting conversation in one of the groups I belong to, and it was essentially this. Have you considered charging for your proposal and baseline ideas? Most professional service providers charge to assess the situation. After all these years, we still provide the outline of an actual plan and sometimes a campaign concept absolutely free of charge. Stop doing that. The discovery part of our process generally takes time. Yes. And then the proposal is written and fine tuned, and then there’s a presentation. We do close two out of three engagements we pursue. Still, I can’t imagine a CPA or a law firm doing this kind of work. Why do we? Well, we shouldn’t. Let’s not do that. Chip Griffin: Yeah. So it is incredibly common for agencies to try to provide fairly robust plans as part of proposals, or worse as part of RFP processes. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: There is way too much detail included in almost all of these. And I’ll be honest, my issue is not that you’re doing it for free, not that you’re not charging for it. It’s that you’re being stupid. Because you are submitting a prescription for how to solve a problem before you really have much information. We’ve said time and time again that as part of the sales process, you have maybe a couple of hours of conversation with a prospect. That is not nearly enough time to really understand what the right approach to solving that problem is. You may know in broad brush strokes what is likely to be the case, but you don’t know enough to put together a detailed plan. So whether you’re paid for it or not, stop doing that. Gini Dietrich: Yes, please. I 100% agree with this. We stopped doing it many years ago, but I love your analogy on this, so I’m gonna let you take it because it works perfectly here. Chip Griffin: So this is, putting together a detailed proposal that includes the outline of a plan would be pretty much the same as if you walked into your doctor’s office and said, Hey, doc, I’m not feeling well today. And the doctor looks at you once and says, you know what? I’ve got the prescription for you. And they immediately write you a prescription or schedule a surgery or something like that. They can’t do that because they don’t have enough information. Right. Even when, based on their experience, they have a pretty good idea what it is. They still order tests, they do blood work. They, they do other tests. They take x-rays, whatever it may be, to confirm that what they suspect is actually what they need to treat you for. That’s right. You need to view your clients and prospects the same way. You should not be in a position of having one phone call with a client or prospect and saying, yep, know what that is. Here’s how we’ll fix that, and here’s what it costs. Gini Dietrich: And I think saying to the prospect if they’re expecting a plan or you know, detail like that, I think it’s really important for us to say, Like, we just don’t know yet. We need to, we need to know your business. Like we can, we can do some discovery and learn about you. What’s online for sure, but that’s not enough. We have to actually dig into your business and understand how the business is run. Do we have experience in your industry? Of course we do. Do we know kind of the approach we might take? Of course we do, but we have to create a prescription to write exactly for you and your business so that we can have success. And we can’t do that without spending, you know, 30 or 60 days with you and, and getting to understand, getting to know and understand your business. Chip Griffin: Right. So if we don’t think that you should be putting together these detailed plans as part of your proposals, what should you do instead? Gini Dietrich: I mean, probably, gosh, 10 years ago we started doing sort of, we have sort of a three phased approach. And the first phase is for lack of a better term, discovery. So the client is paying us to learn their business, understand their business, talk to their stakeholders, talk to their employees, talk to people that are important to them. Talk to customers, talk to former customers, do all of that work to really understand what the pain points are. And through that, we also do some things, which I would call quick wins or low hanging fruit, right? Because the client doesn’t always wanna pay for quote unquote strategy. So there are some things you can do immediately. We’ll do an audit. We’ll look at, you know, because we always do the PESO model, we look to see what’s, if they’re doing a full, If they’re doing paid, earn, shared, and owned, what’s missing, what’s not if it’s fully integrated. So we can do that as, as we go along as well. And we can do some quick wins in terms of like, oh, you know, Halloween’s coming up. Let’s do some social, some themed social media for that. You know, so give them some tangible things while we’re doing the discovery and learning the business that are easy, right? And not dependent on a strategy. Make them feel like we’re, we’re making progress, but getting the information that we need. And then once we go from that, we craft the plan, which is the second phase. They’re paying for that, and then we start to execute. So it’s sort of that three phase. And what we have found is it’s a lot easier for a prospect to swallow a three phase plan because what they’re, in their minds, they’re thinking, okay, well if this first phase doesn’t work out, first of all, it’s not terribly expensive, and if it doesn’t work out, then we don’t have to do the second and third phases. We can just take it and, and do it ourselves. Right? So they, whether or not they’re in love with you, they, that’s just human nature, what they’re thinking. And what we have found is that because they don’t feel like they’ve been roped into an annual contract where there may or may not get results. They’re, they’ve been roped into discovery or strategy building, or however you wanna call it, whatever you wanna call it, and they’re, they always, always spend more money. On the execution than they would if we went right to execution in the beginning. Always. They always do. Mm-hmm. Because they see the value and they understand now how you’re, you’ve become a partner in their business versus just, this is what we do for everybody else, so we’re gonna do it for you. Chip Griffin: Well, and, and as we’ve said before, it also gives you an opportunity to make sure that you are pricing that work correctly. That’s because now you, it’s a good relationship. Now you have more information. Yep. Including how the client is to work with. Absolutely. And how responsive they are to your information requests or approvals or feedback or all of the things that make a big difference in your profit margins as an agency in your ability to deliver effective results for them. I think the, the bottom line is that one way or another, it’s not so much that you need to get paid for it, but that it needs to be part of your process. Mm-hmm. That you do an actual diagnosis while engaged with the client and not prior to. Right. Because it, you simply can’t do it in the amount of time and with the amount of resources that you have available from the client before you’re actually working with them. And whether you do that in a formally staged process or you simply sell audits or some form of paid discovery as a standalone. You know, door opener kind of activity. Or as some of my clients do, you simply say, look, for the first month of our retainer, we are going to be focused on building a plan. Sure. And that is, that is the focus for the first 30 or 60 days. Yep. And you’re setting that expectation and it will refine the specifics as we move along. And that may require us to adjust, to come back to you and say, we need to adjust this retainer up or down based on what we find and what the, the best approach is. And if you do this effectively, you’re not only coming up with a, a better solution for the client, but you’re building trust with them for the reasons that you outline. yes. Because they are now looking at you as the expert who is trying to spend their money more effectively. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: The challenge, however, of course, is that most clients say they want to plan, but they don’t like the planning process. Gini Dietrich: That is right. Yes. Chip Griffin: And because for a few reasons, the, the top of the reason is because they, they want to see results immediately. Yes. And so I think your suggestion that you find low hanging fruit that you can deliver prior to the formulation of the proper strategy. Because there are things, there are little things that we almost certainly no going into an engagement will need to be done regardless of what the diagnosis is. And so why not throw some of those into the mix for those first 30 or 60 days in order to, to start showing some progress. But that is wildly different from starting down the path of a three month project that only at the end shows a result. And maybe by the time you get halfway through, you realize, well, this doesn’t make any sense. This is not what they actually need. Right? We can’t actually get the results that we want from it. So you need to really be thinking about these things in, in the process of, of planning effectively. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Okay. So let’s assume everybody is on board with that. Then I, I would think the next argument is, well, the way I’ve always done this, I’ve, you know, I get 70 per, I close 70% or 75% of my prospects. I don’t wanna lose that. So what’s, what’s our argument there? Chip Griffin: So, I mean, my argument there is, is, first of all, I, I believe that it is unlikely that the reason why you are closing that percentage is because you are taking so many wild stabs in the dark, right? Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: It is entirely probable, in fact, that they would’ve gone with you whether you had that level of detail or not. Now. If you switch to our proposed approach and all of a sudden you see your close rate plummeting, okay, now you need to take a look at what you’ve changed and, and is there a different way to go about it. However, I think it is extremely unlikely. Yeah. That you would find switching to us would have that kind of a dramatic impact on your close rate. I think the other thing to to look at is for the business that you have won, do you feel like that, that you have properly diagnosed in all of these cases in that initial plan? Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: Because if you find that, as I think is likely, there would be adjustments that you would’ve made along the way had you had more information. Mm-hmm. That may have also helped you adapt your pricing so that you’re more profitable. Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: Well, those are all arguments that even if you won the business, it was not the right way to win it. Right. And so you would’ve been better off winning it in a different way, at a different price with a different scope or what have you. So you need to look at the big picture. And finally, you also need to look at what are the costs of the ones that you create. Right? And don’t go anywhere. Yeah. Because we all, I mean, particularly when I, when I talk to people about RFPs, people, they, they talk about the, the one big RFP that they want and they say, well, I can’t give up RFPs ’cause we got this one back in, you know, 2017. And it, you know, it, it’s really, it’s been the, the driver for our business for the last eight years and blah, blah, blah. Okay, cool. But how many RFPs did you lose along the way? Right? And once you factor in the cost of responding to all of those, did it still make sense? And so you need to be looking at that and not just the two out of three that you’ve won. Honestly, if you’re winning two out of three, I would probably, you know, look at whether you’re talking to enough people, because you could probably grow even faster if you had a slightly lower Gini Dietrich: right. Yes. Chip Griffin: Close rate. Oh, it, it does depend a little bit on when you’re creating these, because, you know, we, I would say the vast majority of agencies create proposals way too early. And so, you know, they’re, they’re not taking it as far along in the process, but if you’re at least holding back until it’s almost a done deal, well then two outta three is probably a reasonable close rate. But if it’s these are all of your serious conversations, you’re not having enough. Gini Dietrich: I totally agree with that. And I was gonna say, I would 100% agree with you and would venture to guess that if you have more conversations, you will get a higher close rate. Using our process. Because there’s no risk to the client. I mean, they might be out a little a, a few bucks, you know, but they were gonna spend the money anyway. And you both learn if it’s a great relationship for you. So I actually think your close rate would be higher if you use this process and talk to more prospects. Chip Griffin: It, it certainly ought to be. Yeah. You know, obviously there’s, there’s nuances to every agency’s target audience and, and their appetite for, you know, for doing things and whether they want to be more reckless or not. You know, if you’re dealing with startups, they’re probably less inclined to, you know, to pay for some kind of planning process. Right. Because startups are notorious for wanting to just roll the dice and see what happens, right? Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: It’s not necessarily the right approach, but it is the mentality that a lot of tech startups historically have had. And so you need to, you know, to be conscious of that. But I would say the vast majority of prospects that, that listeners are going after, will be open to this, particularly if you’re positioning it in a way that explains to ’em that you’re trying to make sure that you’re not wasting their time and money. Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Chip Griffin: Because at the end of the day, the reason why people tend to be leery of hiring agencies is because they’re worried about throwing money away. Because maybe they had bad experiences with past agencies that they feel like we paid them a lot of money and we didn’t see any results. And part of that may be because that agency gave them a proposal and a solution without information. And so, and then, then of course, you know, as, as we are, you know, we have a contract in place, we have a plan, we feel obligated to march forward on the path that we’ve given the client. Right? And so that’s the other thing I would say is even if you go through this and you do a 30 day plan or something like that, with the planning process rather with the client. Don’t feel like six months later you can’t go back and say, Hey, look, we have even more information now. We need to course correct. We need to pivot. Yes. It creates a risk because now you’re talking with the client and admitting that your diagnosis may have been either off base or not as full as it should have been or whatever, but you’re putting yourself in a position where you can actually get the results that the client is looking for. Right. And so to me, it’s worth the risk of pivoting even somewhere down the road in the relationship. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and I know we’ve talked about this before, but one of the things that we implemented during the pandemic was quarterly assessments. So that we’re looking at the plan every quarter to to understand, okay, what worked, what didn’t work? What do we need to tweak? You know, we’re constantly doing that. And yeah, of, of course it’s risky because you are admitting that some things didn’t work. But what it does is creates even more trust because the client looks at you and goes, oh, well, they’re not just feeding me full of baloney. They’re actually being honest about what worked and what didn’t, and they’re willing to pivot and make change so that the things that aren’t working, either we’re getting rid of and not doing, or we’re tweaking it to make it more effective. So I think you build even more trust when you create that kind of cadence that allows the client to be involved in the planning decisions and planning discussions and measurement too, to understand what’s working and what’s not. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and, and you know, this is, people know that I, I like weird analogies. I think if they’ve listened to this show at all. And, and you know, if you, if you think about it, you know, if you’re in an Uber and you’re, you know that you’re going on the shortest route to the location you’re trying to get to, and it’s the, the route that you, you have endorsed and say, yeah, that’s, that’s the way we should go. We should go the West Side Highway or whatever. If the road is flooded in front of you, Gini Dietrich: right. Chip Griffin: You don’t want your Uber driver just to keep driving straight into the flood? Nope. You want them to go off and go around it? Yeah. Even though that technically takes longer because you know what? You’re not gonna drown in the flood. You should be the same way with your clients and say, Hey, look, I, I see we’ve got bad weather ahead. Gini Dietrich: I love that. Let’s, or traffic, let’s go around it. We have bad traffic ahead. Chip Griffin: Traffic, anything, right? Yes. You’ve got to, you’ve got to use judgment here. Yes. Love that. You are being paid as an expert to use your judgment at all steps of the process. And if you ever feel that you are in a position where your expertise is either not valued or you don’t feel comfortable delivering it, then you are in the wrong relationship and need to look elsewhere. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Yes. And that is a different discussion for a different time, but Chip Griffin: it is, Gini Dietrich: we ha I have a client right now who’s, I’m like, red flags. Let’s, let’s address the red flags. Chip Griffin: Ah, red flags. Well, maybe we’ll talk about red flags again sometime soon because I think it’s been a while since we’ve ranted about red flags. But I think we’ll draw this rant to a close before we go too far off the rails, but I think I, I think I controlled myself pretty well I think.  Gini Dietrich: You did. You did. Chip Griffin: I think I got, I think I got most of the bad energy out before we hit record. Gini Dietrich: I didn’t even think it was bad energy. Chip Griffin: So that I could have a more modest rant. Gini Dietrich: You did. You did very well. Thank you. You did very well. You’re welcome. Chip Griffin: Thank you. I’ll pat myself on the head there for that. So on that note, we will draw this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast to a close. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich Chip Griffin: and it depends.

In this episode, Chip and Gini discuss how to manage situations where clients want to terminate contracts early. Gini emphasizes the importance of having a strong contract with clear termination clauses, which can serve as leverage in negotiations. They share experiences and strategies for recovering outstanding invoices, including offering concessions and being flexible with payment arrangements. The duo also cautions against aggressive tactics like public shaming for non-payment and stresses the importance of maintaining professionalism to avoid burning bridges. They conclude with practical advice on managing accounts receivable and resolving disputes amicably. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “If you look at a contract as a tool rather than a rigid roadmap, I think that’s the most helpful way to think of legal agreements in the agency client context.” Gini Dietrich: “Overall, you don’t want to burn the bridge with clients.” Chip Griffin: “What you really have to do is figure out how can you get the best possible outcome at this point?” Gini Dietrich: “Keep in mind that these are people who are going to refer business to you.” Related Getting agency-client contracts done right How to protect yourself from an unexpected client breakup How to do client collections right and get paid faster 6 reasons why your agency needs client contracts The basics of agency-client contracts from a business perspective View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, we have one of your favorite topics today, but it’s one that, that we haven’t visited in a while, so it’s, it’s probably worth revisiting. Okay. And, and, and that is, how do you handle it when you have a client who wants to end their contract early? Gini Dietrich: Well. As we all know, I am a stickler for the details when it comes to this, and we have very specific language in our contracts. Our attorney helped me create something beautiful that is a 90 day termination clause. Almost never does somebody sign 90 days. They use, it’s usually a negotiation point, right? It’s, we get it to 30 or 60, whatever. I use it for negotiation. Sometimes the client signs the full 90 day contract. I have had a situation where a client called me at the end of the month and said, we are terminating the contract as of today. And I said, great. There are two outstanding invoices, and by the way, you have a 90 day termination clause. And they came back and said, and I said, but if you’ll pay the the outstanding invoices by the 15th of the month, then I will happily waive the 90 day termination clause because I know you’re, it’s cashflow and I know you’re having a tough time right now. They came back and said, no, that I’m not being a good partner. Chip Griffin: So to clarify, they don’t want to pay for services already rendered? Gini Dietrich: Correct. Chip Griffin: That seems unreasonable under any circumstances. Gini Dietrich: I agree. Chip Griffin: So I think that from my observations of having had these conversations with you now for what, seven or eight years now on this show, you’re being particularly reasonable.  Especially for me. Yes. That’s what I’m saying. You, you personally are being particularly reasonable Uhhuh, because usually you are much more hardcore than I am Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: On these things. Yes. I think that’s fair to say it is. But what you’ve described is. Is something that I would typically offer to a client. Settle your debts and we can just part ways amicably. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: And you are also, I think, the only agency owner I know of who has ever sued a client. I’m sure there are others out there, but I don’t know them personally. Gini Dietrich: It’s the principal. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Yes. We, we know that you, that you thrive on making the point. Gini Dietrich: I do. Chip Griffin: So, so it’s Gini Dietrich: Fair is fair. Chip Griffin: So you’re clearly. Going soft. Gini Dietrich: I’m, I’ve, I’m getting older. I’m, I’m getting older, and I understand that this is not worth pursuing. I would like our past due invoices to be paid, and I will happily waive the 90 day clause. If, however, you don’t pay us by the middle of the month, then I’m not waiving the clause on the contract you signed. Chip Griffin: Right. So let’s, I mean, let’s extrapolate or not extrapolate, let’s, let’s step back and look at this at a higher level rather than your particular individual case. We can use that as an example. Sure. But I think that, that there are a few key points that come out of this that could help other owners. And, and I think the first one is the way that you are using the contract as a tool to get leverage to get a solution that you’re happy with, right? It’s not that you’re abiding by the contract. Right down to the last crossed T and the last dotted I, you are willing to make concessions, right? But by having a strong contract, it gives you the leverage in that negotiation to be able to trade something, the unpaid invoices for the lengthy notification period. Or not lengthy, but the the 90 day notification period. Gini Dietrich: Right, right. Yeah. I think that’s right. And I think having that leverage helps And you, you have, you have to find ways to be able to have that leverage. Like, you know, web forms won’t deliver a website until you’ve paid their last invoice. Same thing. Like what do some things, if a client’s not gonna give you any notice and they did not give us any notice, they called us on the last day of the month. If they’re not going to give you any notice, then what is your leverage to be able to get the invoices paid, in a timely manner? And you know, if they’re saying, well, we can’t pay for 60 or 90 days, or they’re saying We’re not gonna pay it all. There’s things that you need to have. So I think your point about having a contract that has that language in it that they have signed and agreed to, gives you some of that leverage. Withholding work product gives you some leverage. So there are some things that you can do, but you have to have that all set up. You know, you always talk about sort of the prenup. What happens if you get divorced from a client, right? What are the things that are gonna protect you in that, that situation? Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, and I think if you, if you look at a contract as a tool rather than a rigid roadmap, I, I think that’s, that’s the most helpful way to think of, of legal agreements, at least in the agency client context. There are obviously other places where it is that rigid roadmap and Sure. And you’re not gonna do anything about it. I mean, you try having a negotiation with, I don’t know, your car lender, you know, it’s probably not gonna happen. They’re probably just gonna sit there and say, you know, you signed the 27 page agreement. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: Pay up. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: So, so you know, but in, in an agency client relationship, the, the contract is that tool to help resolve the challenge in some sort of a reasonable way. And I, and I do think that it is particularly unreasonable when clients call at the end of, of a time period and say, we’re ending immediately. I mean, that’s just – Regardless of what your contract says, that’s just it. It’s bad behavior. Yep. And, and I don’t appreciate seeing it. And it tells me a lot about either the individual or the organization or sometimes both. Yep. And, and so certainly not something you ever wanna see. Having a contract can help you find a resolution to that. Although, I will say at the same time, when you have people who engage in that kind of behavior, it sometimes ends up being a lost cause candidly. Because if, if someone is willing to do that, then they may have no issue at all just leaving invoices unpaid, and then your only recourse is to sue, which you can do. Sure. You’ve proved that. Yes. And, and yet most of the time it will cost you more time and money than you actually recover. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, for sure. Yes, I have. I have learned, I have grown. I have, and sometimes there are situations where I’m okay spending the money to prove my point. Chip Griffin: Well, and, and sometimes, and there are other options. You can sometimes turn, turn these over to collections groups who will take a percentage of whatever they are able to recover, you know, that. And they, they just turn into the obnoxious collections agent and just Yep, keep calling. You know, that’s not something I’ve ever pursued, but I know some, some owners who have gone down that route, with mixed success. So. You know that there are things that you can do, but generally speaking, your best bet in my experience is to try to work something out in as Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: As friendly a way as possible. Yeah. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Chip Griffin: But it’s, it’s also a good reminder to, to stay on top of your accounts receivable. In your case, two months is, is not terrible. There are plenty of cases where I’ve worked with agencies who have much larger debts owed to them by clients. Yes. And, and what I always tell folks is, you know, whatever you have for outstanding invoices, you have to assume you’ll never get paid. Because there’s just, you know, particularly once they cancel, now you’ve got no leverage left, right? Because what are you gonna, the only thing you have at that point is a lawsuit. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: That’s not particularly helpful Gini Dietrich: right Chip Griffin: Now I have seen a lot of suggestions in places like candidly, the Spin Sucks community, where people have suggested. Some creative, Gini Dietrich: very creative, Chip Griffin: but I think very impudent Gini Dietrich: correct Chip Griffin: ideas. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: For how you deal with deadbeat clients. Gini Dietrich: Yes, yes. Chip Griffin: For example, I think one suggestion I saw, I forget whether this was Spin Sucks or somewhere else, was basically taking out a billboard in a community attacking a company for not paying. Others have suggested putting them on blast and just posting all over social media like you see people do when they’re upset about some treatment by the airline or something like that. Gini Dietrich: Yes, yes. Chip Griffin: These are bad ideas folks. Gini Dietrich: They’re bad ideas. Actually, I just saw somebody put a company on, on blast on social media because they weren’t paying their bills, and I was like, well, that’s one approach. Chip Griffin: I, I mean, the thing is you have to look at this through the lens of the recipient. I mean, you’re, you’re escalating dramatically with them once you go public, right? With something like that. And so now you know, you think you’re putting pressure on them, but the exact opposite may be true. You may be stiffening their spine to say, You know, I didn’t like working with these people anyway, and if they’re gonna behave like this, right? Because keep in mind we sit there and, and, and we look at a client who is canceling with little or no notice, not paying bills. We look at them as the bad guy. But oftentimes if you talk to them, that’s not how they see it. Sure. And, and so, and they may think in their mind, well, geez, this agency didn’t live up to their promises. They didn’t do what they could, or they don’t understand and appreciate our financial troubles that, you know, and, and we just, we don’t have it. We can’t pay it. It is what it is. And, and so, so they don’t think that, and so you going on the, the attack publicly right now just makes them think. Even better of themselves and worse of you and, and takes you further away from resolution rather than closer. I mean, certainly in some cases it might work, but I, but I would argue more often than not, it’s probably not going to. But the other thing you have to think of is how are other people perceiving this? Right. Prospective clients. Yeah. Who might be inclined to work with you. Yeah. If they’re looking at this, they’re saying, geez, you know, if it doesn’t go right with them, this is how they treat their clients? Yeah. I don’t, I don’t know that I wanna work with them. Yeah. So, so you gotta be really careful with these kinds of, of tactics because scorched earth usually burns both sides. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. And I, I mean, there’s something to be said for not burning a bridge, you know, and sure, certainly there, there may be instances here and there over the years that you, it’s okay to burn the bridge, but overall you don’t wanna burn the bridge. And, you know, I, I think that that’s the case. As I’ve grown and matured, that’s one of the things that I’ve learned is, yeah, could I prove, could I sue them and prove my point? Sure, absolutely. Is it worth it? Probably not. Chip Griffin: No. And, and so, so what you really have to do is figure out, you know, how, how can you get the best possible outcome at this point? And so, you know, in your case, trying to trade the outstanding invoices, you know, for waiving the notice period is, you know, probably the, the first and most obvious thing that you can do. But I would also say in these cases, try to collect as much as you can, however you can. Yeah. So, so sometimes what you might do is you might say, well if, if you can pay one of the invoices by this date and the other by a later date, you know, that will then, so ’cause that sometimes can encourage that first payment to come in or break it up. Mm-hmm. You know, break it up into four monthly installments even though it’s two months worth of there. There’s a lot of different creative things that you can do so that you are mitigating your exposure and, and collecting at least some of it. And I think one of the mistakes that, that I’ve seen people make in circumstances like these is it becomes all or nothing. Yeah. And so the, the focus is purely on getting the total amount owed. And, and I would strongly encourage you to try to, if, if you certainly start there, but if you can’t get that right away, then try to figure out how can you, you know, start carving out at least some of that past debt for two reasons. One is it does reduce how much you’re out at the end of the day. But the second is it starts to, to build the expectation in the client that they will continue to pay up, right? And so, so getting that first payment across often will help you get to the later ones. Maybe not to all of them, but at least to subsequent ones. And so, you know, you want to think creatively about this and, and not cut off your nose to spite your face because you just, you wanted it all. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I, I would say to that end too, that many of us have, interest clauses in our contracts. I never hold clients to that either. Like if I, if I can split it up into four payments or, you know, five payments, whatever it happens to be and get and not charge interest for them being late, like, but I get the money eventually. I that, I’m fine with that. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean the, to me, the interest clause is, is really just another lever for you to use. I certainly know agencies who do charge the interest. In some cases I know them, that they, they’ll start it like on day one of being late. I, you know that that’s not. My approach to it. I, I think that, that you, you can lead to clients feeling like they’re being nickled and dimed for things like that. Sure. Yeah. But the other thing frankly is that there is, a fair bit of, of research out there that suggests that things like interest in late fees and all of that actually encourages late payment. Sure. Yeah. Before the be, you know, there was a, I remember there was one particular study of a daycare. And the, the daycare was frustrated that parents kept, you know, showing up after five o’clock or whatever to pick up their kids. I remember the staff had to wait around and so they started instituting a late fee, and rather than fixing it, it actually made it worse. Yes. Because then people started saying, well, okay, I’ll pay the extra 50 bucks. Right. You know, so that I don’t have to show up until like seven. Yes. Yes. And, and so what they, because, so sometimes those kinds of, of penalties actually serve as permission to engage in bad behavior. So, so something to, to keep in mind when you’re using things like that is that, that you may not have the expected consequence of things like that. So you, you wanna think those things through, but I, I encourage you to have the interest fee provision in there because it is something that you can say, it does give you that leverage. You gets paid in 10 days, then we’ll waive it or something like that. Yep. And so you, you, you always want to try to appear, even with the most difficult client, it is in your best interest, no pun intended, to, to appear to be as accommodating and as helpful as possible. Because your goal, when you think about it, is to extract yourself from this relationship with as little damage to your business as possible. That’s right. And generally escalating, and, you know, you know, putting up your fists and sparring is not the way to get there. Gini Dietrich: No, absolutely not. And like I said, if you, if, if you can avoid burning a bridge because you’re right. These cl, these, these are people who are going to refer business to you. And I always say, I always say this about employees. You always remember an employee by the way they left, not with by all the great work that they did while they worked with you. Yep, sure. And if they behave, if they left badly, that’s how you remember them. And it’s the same thing with clients. If you leave the relationship poorly or you leave with a bad taste in their mouth, or you put them on blasts publicly. They’re not going to refer business to you, and they’re going to remember that you treated them badly from their perspective when you left. So I think those are the kinds of things that we have to think about as we, as we deal with clients who don’t follow their agreement that they made with you. Chip Griffin: Right. And, and I, and I do think that it is important to try to, to end relationships in such a way that you leave the door open to future possibilities. Sure. At the same time as you’re seeking to resolve these kinds of issues. I wouldn’t put too much stock in that because the vast majority of clients who have ever left any of my businesses over the years, will say things like, oh, well, we’ll be back when, you know, and, and that may be time certain, it may be when their business turns around, it may be, you know, whatever. The vast majority never come back, and I don’t believe that’s because, you know, my businesses are all lousy and they were just, you know, making stuff up to make me feel good. I, I think in the moment most people actually believe this, but… Things change for them. Life moves on. Sure. And, and yes. And so maybe it just doesn’t feel like a fit later on. Right. And there’s nothing wrong with that. Right. And I don’t blame them for that, but I do, I do encourage owners not to say, well, they said they’ll come back in three or six months, so you know, I’m gonna cut ’em a real sweetheart deal. You wanna be careful about that. Make a decision that assumes that you would still be okay with it if they never come back. I mean, I, I always think that most business decisions. If you, if you look at them through the, the worst case possibility, you’ll make better decisions. And that’s true of, you know, whether it’s resolving something with a client. Pitching new business to a client, selling your agency at some point down the road, always assume that you only get the bare minimum out of it. Yeah. And ask yourself if you are okay with the bare minimum. If you’re only happy with it because there’s some icing on the cake that you think is coming later, then you probably shouldn’t go down that path. Gini Dietrich: No, totally agree with you. It’s, you know, counting your chickens before their hatch. Don’t do that. Don’t ever, ever do that. Chip Griffin: Nope. Nope. Kill a chicken and eat it. Sorry, PETA. Gini Dietrich: On that note, Chip Griffin: I think, I think probably on that note before we go farther off the rails, we will draw this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast to a close. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: I’m Gini Dietrich, Chip Griffin: and it depends.