Always Be Testing

For Mother's Day, Tye DeGrange hands the mic to his mom — Ginger DeGrange. Rodeo queen. Horse trainer. Summer camp founder. 36-year instructor who's taught 10,000+ students the art of horsemanship at Santa Rosa Junior College. This one's full of great stories: the OJ Simpson trail ride, a student who went on to dine with the Queen of England, competing at the Grand National, and the old reinsman who taught Ginger that quiet confidence beats loud energy every time. Plus real lessons on building confidence, earning trust, and leading with feel — on and off the horse.

The first episode of SaaS Class tackles one of the most pressing questions in B2B marketing: how do you win when your buyers are finding answers on ChatGPT and Perplexity instead of Google?Tye sits down with Nancy Harnett (Head of Affiliate & Offsite AEO at HubSpot) and Guy Yalif (Webflow, formerly CEO of Intellimize) to break down what's actually working in the race to become the most visible brand in AI search. Nancy reveals how HubSpot generated 200K+ AI citations in 6 months and became the #1 most visible CRM across AI search. Guy shares how Webflow appears in 67% of the AI answers they care about — more than any other CMS including WordPress.What you'll learn:Why AEO is a natural evolution of great SEO, not a replacementThe 4 pillars of AEO: Content, Technical, Authority & MeasurementWhy affiliate marketing is now the "new backlinks" — driving top and bottom-funnel AI impactHow HubSpot used Reddit to go from ~100 to 146K AI citations in 7 monthsContent depth and localization: what actually moves the needleHow to build a closed-loop measurement system to iterate fast

Kyle White is the CEO & Founder of Refinery, an AI-powered affiliate technology solution. He brings a rare blend of experience across affiliate management (Overstock, Uber), product development, and data-driven experimentation. He previously built tools at Impact, led global affiliate/ambassador programs at Uber, and now focuses on making affiliate programs smarter, more automated, and more profitable using AI.In this conversation, Kyle breaks down how AI is transforming affiliate marketing, how brands can adopt product‑led growth principles, and why relevancy—not payouts—is the strongest signal in partner matchmaking. He shares lessons from scaling Uber’s Ambassador Program from a 7% to an 80% activation rate, what most brands get wrong about affiliate recruitment, and how to design tests that actually produce meaningful insights.The episode also covers trends shaping the future: the threat of AI search bypassing the affiliate channel, the rise of pay‑per‑performance TV & audio partners, and why the next era will require filtering through more noise to find true value. Kyle also shares personal stories—building a company with a newborn, being featured in South Park, speaking Russian from missionary service in the Baltics, and his love of film photography.

This episode explores the future of search and digital discoverability with an experienced SEO executive and growth advisor who has worked with high-growth marketplaces and SaaS companies. The conversation unpacks how the mechanics of online discovery are being reshaped by AI, shifting user behavior, and the declining reliability of traditional traffic channels. Together, we examine why visibility is no longer just a marketing function but a product and experience challenge — where trust, intent, and usefulness determine whether users discover and choose a product. The discussion also covers how teams should rethink SEO from a tactical ranking exercise into a strategic growth capability, what durable acquisition looks like today, and how organizations can adapt their playbooks to stay relevant as search continues to evolve.

In this episode of Always Be Testing, host Tye DeGrange is joined by Cormac Jonas, CEO and Founder of The Jonas Agency, for a deep dive into what’s actually broken in modern performance marketing. With years of experience across affiliate, paid media, and creator-led growth, Cormac brings a sharp perspective on why so many brands are optimizing campaigns while ignoring the bigger problem: flawed measurement.The conversation unpacks how misattribution, last-click bias, and platform incentives distort ROI, using the recent Honey browser extension controversy as a real-world example of how value gets misassigned across channels. They explore why TikTok and YouTube reshaped high-intent demand, how AI, CTV, and programmatic traffic are inflating “performance” metrics, and why owning an audience now matters more than owning traffic. This episode is a candid look at where affiliate and performance marketing are heading — and what brands need to fix before scaling spend.

In this episode of Always Be Testing, Tye DeGrange sits down with Ziggy Kopetti, a veteran affiliate marketing operator and platform founder who has spent years working inside the mechanics of performance marketing—from attribution and partner incentives to how networks and platforms actually make money.The conversation explores how affiliate programs really scale, where brands commonly misjudge incentives, and why many performance issues are self-inflicted by poor structure rather than bad partners. Ziggy breaks down the economic realities behind affiliate platforms, how creators and publishers think about risk and reward, and why transparency and alignment matter more than tooling alone. The episode also touches on where affiliate marketing is headed, what brands misunderstand about creator partnerships, and how short-term optimization often creates long-term trust problems.

In this episode, I get the chance to sit down with Jen Goodwin, a powerhouse with 17 years of experience driving growth across e-commerce and affiliate marketing. Jen has helped scale some of the biggest brands in the space and played a major role in two successful exits — the acquisition of Coupons.com (Quotient) and Honey’s $4B sale to PayPal.She’s worked at every level of an organization, mentoring new talent, partnering with the C-suite, and leading teams through transformation and growth. Today, she co-leads Hi Energy Agency, where she helps publishers scale faster through smarter affiliate partnerships and more efficient monetization strategies across major networks.Our conversation digs into what real leadership looks like inside high-growth environments — the tough decisions, the clarity required, the importance of operational discipline, and the mindset shifts that separate good teams from great ones. Jen brings a level of honesty and practical insight that operators will immediately recognize and appreciate.

In this episode, we sit down with Scott Ginsberg — VP of Performance Marketing at Penske Media, the powerhouse behind brands like Rolling Stone, Billboard, Variety, and Robb Report. With two decades in affiliate and performance marketing (including leadership roles at BrandCycle, CJ, and Yahoo), Scott breaks down how the industry evolved from “coupons and last-click” into one of the most strategic levers in modern growth.We explore how top publishers balance editorial integrity with monetization, the rise of content-commerce, how AI is reshaping traffic and attribution, why brand-publisher relationships win long-term, and the underrated leadership principles that drive great teams.This episode is a masterclass for marketers, operators, and leaders navigating a shifting ecosystem.

In this episode of Always Be Testing, host Tye DeGrange sits down with Amro Naddy, VP of Product and General Manager at U.S. News & World Report, where he leads digital transformation, innovation, and audience growth initiatives across one of the most trusted names in media.With a background spanning product strategy, growth, and media leadership, Amro brings a thoughtful lens to how legacy brands can evolve without losing credibility. He shares how U.S. News balances data-driven optimization with editorial integrity — and why connecting product, marketing, and content strategy is crucial for long-term success.Together, they dive into the future of product-led growth, what it takes to lead cross-functional teams in a complex organization, and how to measure what really matters when building products for millions of users. Amro also reflects on leadership lessons — from building psychologically safe teams to navigating change in organizations that have been around for decades.This episode is a masterclass in modern leadership, where innovation meets trust and experimentation meets purpose.

In this episode of Always Be Testing, host Tye DeGrange sits down with Bob Feist — known as the Godfather of Team Roping — a legendary cowboy, entrepreneur, and rodeo announcer. A Cowboy Hall of Fame inductee and PRCA Pioneer Award winner, Bob is also the founder of Ropers Sports News, the first-ever newspaper dedicated to team roping, and the creator of The Bob Feist Invitational (BFI), the richest one-day open team roping event in the world.In this inspiring conversation, Bob and Tye explore the Cowboy Code — a timeless set of values centered on courage, integrity, and doing what’s right — and how these principles apply to today’s business and marketing world. Bob shares stories and lessons from decades of entrepreneurship, from building a publication out of nothing to growing one of the most prestigious events in rodeo history.They dive into how the Cowboy Code influences leadership, business ethics, and branding, as well as the importance of trust, humility, and staying true to your brand identity. Bob also discusses key entrepreneurial lessons on starting small, adapting to change, and rewarding loyalty, offering timeless wisdom on integrity, perseverance, and leading with purpose.

In this episode of Always Be Testing, host Tye DeGrange sits down with Nicole Leffer, an AI consultant, speaker, and founder of her own AI consultancy helping marketing teams and organizations understand, adopt, and integrate generative AI tools effectively. With a background as Head of Marketing for a B2B SaaS company, Nicole began experimenting with AI tools in 2021—long before the ChatGPT boom—and has since become a trusted voice in AI strategy, training, and implementation.Nicole shares her journey from early AI adoption in marketing to launching her consultancy, offering practical insights for brands navigating this fast-evolving landscape. The conversation explores how AI can transform marketing workflows and team productivity, why organizations should start with one tool before expanding, and the risks of “cognitive offloading” or trusting AI too much. Nicole emphasizes the importance of maintaining human oversight, communication, and critical thinking, while debunking common misconceptions about AI’s limitations and potential.They also discuss how to train teams to use AI responsibly and creatively, the role of experimentation and continuous learning in the AI era, and why smaller, agile teams often see greater success with implementation than larger, more rigid organizations. Beyond strategy, Nicole shares her creative side—her passion for travel, music, and using tools like Sunno to compose songs—illustrating how AI can enhance both professional workflows and personal expression.

In this episode of Always Be Testing, host Tye DeGrange sits down with Kayla Castro, Senior Manager of Affiliates & Partnerships at Zenni Optical, to talk about the evolving world of affiliate marketing. Kayla shares her experience leading affiliate programs and offers practical insights on how to audit and optimize affiliate strategies for long-term success.The conversation covers common mistakes brands make in affiliate marketing and why internal communication is critical for gaining leadership buy-in. Kayla also dives into the complexities of measurement, breaking down MTA, MMM, incrementality, and attribution models in a way that helps marketers understand how to use the right tool for the right decision.They explore how to balance efficiency, partner diversity, and sustainable growth while leveraging AI as a supportive tool without losing the human touch that drives authentic, trust-based relationships with partners. Beyond marketing, Kayla shares personal perspectives on travel, books, and professional growth, making the discussion both practical and relatable.