#AmWriting

Jennie Nash introduces a hot seat coaching episode where Author Accelerator coaches Stuart and Margaret work through Margaret’s new Blueprint for a historical novel set in Florence in the 1400s. Stuart helps Margaret pressure-test the story engine by differentiating two opposing forces—an Alchemist experimenting with mercury-based syphilis treatments and Savonarola (whom Stuart nicknames “Rolly”), who seeks to purge Florence to save souls—clarifying how each tempts protagonist Eliana. They explore why Eliana is susceptible to each system, the emotional costs of her shifting allegiances, and how themes of disillusionment, integrity, belonging, and found family drive the plot. Key craft work includes defending character choices, making Eliana’s decisions feel inevitable and proactive, and strengthening Lena’s role as Eliana’s unconditional friend while likely keeping Lena out of POV to avoid narrative sprawl. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

On the #amwriting podcast’s “Margin Notes,” Jennie Nash talks with Dr. Diana Hill (author of Wise Effort) about how the urge to prove yourself—through resumes, accolades, or “pre-order my book” pleas—undermines authenticity and connection, especially when pitching ideas, proposals, or personal brands. Hill describes confronting this while rebranding her website and shifting from listing credentials to articulating the real user experience and who the work is and isn’t for, using specific language that reflects her core value of awareness/attunement rather than generic, AI-like claims. They unpack the psychology behind proving (seeking safety, belonging, and autonomy) and suggest asking which need is driving the behavior, aiming instead to demonstrate value, embrace vulnerability, and rely on trusted “tough love” feedback.Books Mentioned* Wise Effort by Dr. Diana HillJoin the Blueprint Summer ChallengeStarting a book? Stuck in a draft? Planning a revision?The Blueprint Summer Challenge is designed to help you make meaningful progress on your manuscript this summer.Over six weeks, beginning July 10, you’ll use the Blueprint—a proven framework for developing stronger books with greater clarity, purpose, and reader impact—to move your project forward, wherever you are in the process.Whether you’re writing nonfiction, memoir, fiction, or another genre entirely, the goal is simple: spend six focused weeks making your book stronger.Start with the Blueprint CourseWe’re offering an all-new Blueprint course in Teachable, which includes:* The full text of The Blueprint* Fourteen video lessons covering every step of the framework* Real coaching examples that show writers applying the Blueprint to their own projects* Practical guidance you can use immediatelyThe course is designed to help you develop a stronger foundation for your book—whether you’re beginning from a blank page, working through a draft, or planning a revision.Course enrollment: $19👉 Enroll in the Fiction Blueprint Challenge👉 Enroll in the Memoir Blueprint Challenge👉 Enroll in the Nonfiction Blueprint ChallengeJoin the Live Coaching SessionsPaid podcast subscribers will also receive access to six weeks of live coaching sessions featuring me and a variety of Author Accelerator coaches.Each session will focus on a specific Blueprint step and the challenges writers commonly encounter while developing, drafting, or revising their books. You’ll have opportunities to ask questions, learn from expert coaches, and watch hot-seat coaching sessions where writers will receive direct feedback on their work.Some sessions will be led by me, while others will feature experienced Author Accelerator coaches with expertise across genres and stages of the writing process. We’ll hold these sessions at different times to accommodate different schedules, but we know for sure that Jennie will be doing coaching each Monday at 3:00 PST. The first one will be July 13. Other sessions will be slotted in soon.Whether you’re starting a new project, trying to get unstuck, or preparing for revision, these live sessions will help you apply the Blueprint to your own book and make meaningful progress throughout the summer.Become a paid subscriber for $12/monthWin a Blueprint RevisionEveryone who enrolls in the Blueprint Course will be entered to win a personal Blueprint coaching session with me and be featured on the podcast.We’ll award one winner for every 100 course enrollments, so the more writers who join the Challenge, the more opportunities there are to win this Grand PrizeReady for More Support?As you progress, you’ll also have the opportunity to connect with a trained Blueprint coach for personalized guidance, feedback, and accountability. We are rolling out a new coach matching system that will give you an easy and intuitive way to find the coaches who are a great fit for your and your project.There is no charge for this service and no obligation to work with the coaches we match you with – but what a great chance to connect with people who could help you write your best book!Whether you need help clarifying your vision, solving a structural problem, or creating a plan for finishing your manuscript, a coach can help you take the next step.Join us on July 10 and spend six weeks making your book stronger.Learn All About the Summer ChallengeOn July 6th at 9:00 am PST, Jennie will be hosting a live AMA to talk about the Blueprint and the summer challenge, and answer all your questions. We’ll send out an email reminder about this event.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.TranscriptJennie Nash: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most.Hey, everyone. This is Margin Notes, the part of the podcast where we’re talking about big decisions writers face in their work and their creative lives.And I’m here today again with Dr. Diana Hill, author of Wise Effort, and I am recording this while sitting on the floor of my grandchild’s nursery. I’ve got my microphone on a box of diapers, and I’m making it work ‘cause that’s what we do. We just make it work. And today, Diana and I wanna talk about this idea of feeling like you need to prove yourself and how that undermines everything, your power and your point.[00:01:00]And the reason that we wanted to talk about this is, well, it was triggered by something that Diana was going through, but I... resonated so much with me as well. I feel like this happens to me all the time, feeling like I need to prove myself, and I see it happening in my clients all the time, particularly when they’re trying to pin their idea down, or they’re trying to work on a book proposal.They’re trying to pitch themselves to something in some way. This idea of having to just prove ourselves, puff ourselves up, um, look at all our accomplishments, all, all of those things. So Diana, do you wanna talk about what happened to you that, that triggered this idea of this conversation?Dr. Diana Hill: Well, I’m working on the...A website rebrand, which I think we all do now. It’s sort of like we have to update our kitchens every 10 years and our websites every five, right? So- Five years? ... I’m updating... Three. Two? How many years do you update your website? How often?Jennie Nash: Like every couple months.Dr. Diana Hill: Yeah, but I’m doing [00:02:00] a full rebrand. Like I’m not just repainting.I’m actually like, you know, doing a little remodel as well. So I’m going through that, the remodel process, and who I was five years ago is very different than who I am now. I’ve evolved as an author. I’ve had a num- number of books come out, and I’ve done the, the adding on little bits, so my website has been updated to include the books that I’ve been, that I’ve...But I’ve changed, and the question became in this, in putting out the, the rebrand is who, who am I gonna put out into the world? And there was this conflict happening where I kept on wanting to prove my academic achievements, prove that I have, that I’m worthy in some way for you to listen to me, and you were helping me on it, and you’re like, “No, this is- that’s actually de- it detracts from actually what you’re gonna guide people to get.”Like, what is, what is the offer? What are people gonna experience in, in reading your books or [00:03:00] working with you? And those are two very different presentations. One is the prove yourself presentation, and then one is actually what am I here for presentation, and you have to dig deeper into the what am I here for oneJennie Nash: That’s a great way of putting it.Yeah, and what I was seeing you do, I just recognize so often it’s almost just like, “Here’s my resume. Let me give you my resume.” Yeah And the accolades, and the honors, and people I’ve worked with, and the stages I’ve been on. And we think that that shorthand is going to convey to people what it’s like to, to work with us, or to read our work, or to be immersed in our ideas or our thoughts, and it...Nobody cares really, right? Like, at the end of the day, in a weird way, it, nobody cares.Dr. Diana Hill: The funny thing about our resume is that we all have things on our resume that we are really proud of because for some reason it was super impressive to us in our little niche thing at that particular time. That [00:04:00] you, when you actually put it out there, like you said, nobody cares.It’s not that impressive a- outside of the context of your personal experience. So keep your resume to yourself.Jennie Nash: You know?Dr. Diana Hill: Re- it’s a great, great reminder of all the things that you’ve accomplished, and been through, and the struggles that you’ve had, but the questioning, but the question for me is, okay, what is the user experience in, in coming to this work?And is the user experience one that is a- actually the experience that they’re gonna have with me when they work with me, or when they read my book, or when they... And that’s, that needs to be true. My resume actually is an, is an, a match for that, um, for that user experience.Jennie Nash: It’s so funny ‘cause while you’re talking about keep your resume for yourself, I’m remembering some times quite recently actually where I’ve had a big thing happen, and I’ve said to my family, actually to the daughter whose house I’m in right now, well, my grandchild’s mother, um, I said to her, “Oh, this really cool thing happened.”And then I found myself having to explain [00:05:00] it because she doesn’t understand my world, or the people, or what it means, or this other thing. And the more I started explaining it, just the s- the kinda sillier it felt. And I just sort of felt so diminished by trying to explain it to her. Like, “This matters.Let me tell you why it matters. Let me explain what it means,” and all the things. And she was just sort of looking at me like, “Okay, Mom.” Yeah. You know? Yeah.Dr. Diana Hill: AndJennie Nash: that’s a little bit what it feels like to try to prove yourself when- It... Yes ... paper, right?Dr. Diana Hill: Yes. It’s like the difference between a optometrist and ophthalmologist.You really don’t know the difference between optometrist and ophthalmologist until you have eye issues and you realize, oh, my gosh, one of them went to medical school and has a million years more expe- experience versus the other one that can just, you know, get your glass- glasses prescription for you.The resume matters in some ways. Your resume does matter, what you’ve done, the experiences and training, and things that, um, certifications and all those things. They do, they do matter i- in some ways. But there’s also a way that [00:06:00] you can just demonstrate it rather than having to prove it. And, and the proving yourself ends up not looking so great, and the demonstrating it- Feels better because then people are act- that’s going back to people are experiencing it.So if you’re having a conversation with a ophthalmologist versus optometrist, the optometrist has the medical degree, the ophthalmologist doesn’t, or maybe it’s the other way around. You will actually feel a- you’ll feel that difference in having a conversation with them about eyes, right, in terms of their training and background.The same can be true for your writing or whatever it is that you’re trying to prove.Jennie Nash: It’s almost like we’re talking about show, don’t tell- Yeah ... except with our online identities or our professional identities, how we’re putting ourself forward, that you can’t just tell somebody, “This is how great I am.This is all the great stuff I’ve done,” or, “This is how great it would be to, to read my work or work with me.” You, you have [00:07:00] to show. You have to own it. You have to embody it. Uh, so when you, you actually completely scrapped a version of your website that was, um... And I feel like this was a little bit my fault, and I’m sorry.‘Cause I was like, “I hate this. Get rid of it.” Um, and you’re very coachable in that way because you understand that that’s holding a mirror up, and you were like, “Yeah, I don’t like it one bit.” And you, so you did that thing that’s very brave, which is you just said, “Okay, it’s... I’m putting it aside. I’m starting fresh.”And, um- What... And then you loved the result. So can you talk about the different feeling of the one versus the other? What, what did it feel like to sit with the one you didn’t like? And then what did it feel like to sit with the one that you loved?Dr. Diana Hill: Yeah. So just to give listeners behind the scenes, what I’m working on is, some people call it a wire frame, which is the background of what you’re gonna say, the copy that you’re, that’s eventually gonna go on the website [00:08:00] with all the photos and the, you know, uh, design aspects of things, which I’m also working on in parallel to make sure it’s a show, don’t tell situation.Uh, but I think what I, what I had before was i- i- it, it had those resume qualities of trying to tell you about every single school that I’d been to and, um, every thing that I’ve done that’s, that’s impressive, and also a bit about my method as opposed to what it is now is really speaking directly to the person that’s coming and what they, the struggle that they’re in, and the experience that they’re gonna have with me.But it’s very, very specific in the, in the wording. It’s not these sort of... And this is where AI can sometimes throw us, um, sideways, is that AI can have these sort of words that applies. You, you had some comments [00:09:00] in there where you’re like, “This could apply to anybody. Isn’t that what everyone would say?”Uh, so for example, in, in, in the wording now, there, I had done, I had done all these, like what are my core values, which people list on their website a lot. And a, a bunch of the core values that were on there, you were like, “Doesn’t everybody have... Isn’t that everyone’s core...” Like, if you have a core value of kindness, who doesn’t have cor- k- kindness as a core value, right?And so I, you know, I, I have other words that are more... You said, “The one thing that really actually is you, Diana, is this word awareness, attunement to what is happening inside, around, and between us.” That’s a very, that’s a very Diana word, awareness, attunement, and this type of attunement that’s inside and around, in between, and that’s nothing that AI would generate.So not that AI is all bad. We can use AI to help us kind of fine-tune things, but there is a element of going inside and asking yourself, like, actually wh- What is true for you? Not what are you trying to prove, but actually what is true for you and what will be the true experience [00:10:00] of the people that, that work with you, whether...or read your work that matches that.Jennie Nash: This connects to what I see a lot of writers do when their books come out and they start posting on social media, “Pre-order my book.” It’s usually at the pre-order stage, right? “Pre-order my book. Pre-order my book. Please pre-order my book.” And, and it’s this- Mm ... sort of, um, uh, grabby, uh, way of talking about them and what they’ve done.And sometimes they’ll say something like, “I’ve been working on this for 10 years.” You know, like, like we care. We don’t care, in a way.Dr. Diana Hill: Right.Jennie Nash: What, what we need to talk about in those circumstances is w- who is this book for? What is the experience of this book going to be? What is your experience of this writer or this, if it’s a nonfiction writer like you, of this idea or these experiences they’re creating?What is that gonna be for the reader? To, to talking, to owning it, rather than saying, “Well, I [00:11:00] worked on it for 10 years, so you have to buy my book.” You know? Like, it’s kinda crazy. So can we... Can you help us understand what’s going on psychologically when, when we’re doing that, trying to prove ourselves?Dr. Diana Hill: Well, yeah. The, the psychology of proving ourselves. So in general, there’s three, there’s three main things that we’re, uh, sort of always trying to protect or always trying to, uh, maintain. We’re trying to maintain our safety, and these are evolutionarily, like, old reasons. We’re trying to maintain our, like, our physical safety.Am I safe in this world, right? We’re trying to maintain our belonging and our connection, which is related to our safety, but our belong conne- connection. Am I part of the group? And then we’re trying to maintain our autonomy. Do I have control? Or somebody else taking control from me. And so what the psychology of proving ourself is that it’s sort of tackling or t- attempting to tackle those three things, but actually doesn’t get you [00:12:00] those three things.So when we’re trying to prove ourself, we’re creating this sense of belonging because if I, if I prove to you that I’m worthy, then you’ll accept me, right? But actually, when you’re trying to prove yourself, it doesn’t look good to people. They, they, they’re off- off-put. It, it doesn’t feel authentic, it feels provey, right?You’re just listing all your accomplishments. We also, when we’re trying to prove ourself, we’re trying to maintain that safety in the sense that, if I prove myself, you can’t hurt me. You can’t... You know, your critiques won’t, won’t damage me. But that, that’s also not true as well. We actually will, um, because we’re...Sort of a weird thing, but if you’re trying to prove yourself and people accept you just by trying to prove yourself, then, then you also can feel like they’re not really accepting all of you, they’re not accepting the messy parts of you. And we actually feel a little bit safer when we show people our vulnerable, messy parts and people still like us, they still find us beautiful with the mess and the flaws, right?[00:13:00]And then the third part around, so we have safety, we have, um, belonging, and then the third aspect of maintaining autonomy and control. This is also, um, a bit of a paradox because the more that you’re trying to prove yourself, actually the less autonomy you have because you are now in the confines of, I can only present this, this, and this as the trying to gain approval, and I have less, um, variability or less ability to be diverse in my, in my presentation.So the, it actually narrows us, but there’s evolutionary reasons why we do it, and it’s all about trying to, you know, our own survival in some ways.Jennie Nash: Oh, that is so interesting. That puts a whole different spin on... ‘Cause I always wonder, why is that people’s instinct to, um, yeah, they wanna be... I mean, it’s what all writers want in a way, right?We wanna be loved, we wanna be chosen, we [00:14:00] wanna be, um, embraced by our readers and by our fans. We wanna have fans. Um, what an interesting way to think about that.Dr. Diana Hill: Yeah. We also wanna be in control, ‘cause it’s scary to let, let go of a little bit of that control or to, like, like you were talking about- Actually, instead of talking about, you know, s- pre-order my book, and you actually start saying, “This is, this is the, this is why this book may be helpful for you,” you’re opening yourself up to more rejection because what if someone doesn’t find it helpful, right?Or doesn’t- Or says- Their, their experience ... you don’t knowJennie Nash: what you’re talking about.Dr. Diana Hill: Yeah, and that’s what I really liked. So when you were coaching me on my, on, um, the wire frame of my, the website or the, the branding, you coached me on these two lines. This work is right for you if... And entering in all the reasons, like who, who is it that you’re, th- is a good match?And this work may not be for you if... [00:15:00] Which is so dangerous to say, right? So it may not be for you if you’re looking for something quick, polished and comfortable. This isn’t that. And so you actually are gonna turn away a few people. That, and in some ways you kind of are proving yourself, but not in a direct way, by saying, “I can own this space and tell you this is who, who it’s gonna work for, this is who it’s not gonna work for, and I don’t need it to work for all of you.”So it ha- it has a little bit of actually more proof to it, but it’s also a little bit more vulnerable.Jennie Nash: That’s so cool. So for a fiction writer, they might think to themselves, “I wrote this particular kind of book.” Uh, well, let’s just take a happily ever after romance. I wrote a happily ever after romance for people who love this type of thing and this type of character and this type of situation.You know, maybe it’s friends to lovers or whatever, and, and it’s not for people who are looking for this other thing. Like to-Dr. Diana Hill: Yeah, if you’re looking for bullet points on how to be a better romantic partner and some self-help, this [00:16:00] book is not it. You know? Like, but it, it is this, you’re gonna get this experience or this journey or the, these, um, the gosh, when you’re, like, on the beach reading this book, you’re not gonna wanna put it down ‘cause you’re so engrossed in it versus the types of book, the s- books that I write, which are much more actionable, bullet-pointy, and, you know, you’ll be able to put it down.You’ll be able to put my books down for a little bit, take a break. So it’s- You haveJennie Nash: to. Let your brain, yeah. You have to. Let your brain process.Dr. Diana Hill: Yeah.Jennie Nash: So what can people do if they feel themselves in that I have to prove it energy? What’s a way to, to get out of it, um, short of having, um, your book coach tell youDr. Diana Hill: that- Yeahthey hate it? Okay, so here’s the bullet points. This is, this is the, the, the bullet point thing. First ask yourself, am I, am I trying to seek safety? Am I trying to experience a sense of autonomy? Am, um, or am I [00:17:00] trying to experience belonging? Is this about wanting to belong? Those three things. Like, am I trying to feel safe?Am I trying... And is that what’s really driving me? And just asking yourself that can help you remember, okay, what’s, what’s driving this desire to prove myself? And when you ask yourself what’s driving this desire to prove yourself, you actually can meet those inner yearnings that are underneath that in a more authentic wayJennie Nash: I love that.I love that Yeah And, and then maybe then own, own your work, um, in a way that’s, I don’t know what the word would be, well, more authentic, but, um, probably just feels better. ‘Cause isn’t that where you landed? Where you j- you s- there was such a sense of relief when you landed on the right way of presenting yourself.Just it was like, “Ah, yes. This is- Yeah ... where I wanna be.”Dr. Diana Hill: Well, yeah. It’s, it’s relief because it feels more congruent so that you know what you’re putting on the page was also, would also be what you’re telling [00:18:00] someone if you’re sitting next to them at dinner. It’s, it’s congruent, it matches, it, it flows, it’s more you than the proving yourself energy where it’s a lot more effort, it’s a lot more, um, contraction, it’s a lot more keeping track of things, ‘cause I have to prove X, Y, and Z, and it’s a lot less connection, ease, and flow.Jennie Nash: Yeah. Uh, which is what happens when you’re in wise effort. That’s what your book is about. So that, that was a neat way to bring it around to your, your, uh, your core thing. I think it’s worth pointing out that even someone like you, who is a world-class expert in these ideas and how to, how to be in wise effort, even you struggle with falling into these traps of proving yourself.And I certainly do every day. Um, so I think it’s just worth noting that nobody, nobody escapes this.Dr. Diana Hill: [00:19:00] Nobody escapes being a human. Of course not. So these are our human, these are our human ten- tendencies.Jennie Nash: Yeah.Dr. Diana Hill: They’re just human tendencies. And when we can see it as that, then we can use our wiser minds to help us with our more human selves that get c- gets caught and trapped.And, uh, and then the, the other part of it that I think is really huge for me is having people like you, Jennie, in my life that help doing this type of point, do the pointing out in the way that you do it, that is I know that you totally have my back, and so that’s why you can give me tough love. So you need some tough love people reading your work, uh, that you trust, that aren’t, aren’t gonna let it just slip through ‘cause it’s not, you know, let the prove y- but actually will point it out to you, but will point out to you in a way that feels like this, this is gonna be better because they see me and know me.Yeah.Jennie Nash: I love that. Well, thank you for coming on to talk about this idea. And for our listeners, until next time, [00:20:00] stop playing small and write like it matters.Outro: The hashtag amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

In this #amwriting Write Big session, Jennie Nash discusses managing mindset during the submission process, sharing that her new book project is out with an agent in staged publisher batches and that rejections often arrive faster than acceptances because “yes” decisions take more time and coordination. With four early nos, she feels encouraged because most responses cite familiarity with her and her work and affirm the project’s purpose, offering specific, non-boilerplate feedback. She frames these nos as validation and useful information, emphasizes not relying on external approval, and urges writers pitching or on submission to treat rejections as fuel while focusing on enjoying the journey. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Jennie Nash hosts a Write Big session of the #amwriting podcast introducing an “arena” metaphor for writers, inspired by Brené Brown’s Daring Greatly (and Teddy Roosevelt’s “man in the arena” quote), Priya Parker’s The Art of Gathering, and Taylor Swift’s Eras Tour. Jennie argues that writers, like performers, intentionally gather an audience and should be clear about who they want in the “seats,” what experience they want readers to have, and what energy and feedback they want in return. Using Swift’s deliberate creation of emotionally meaningful, immersive moments and audience delight, Nash urges writers to stop playing safe, claim full creative power, and step into the spotlight with purpose. She emphasizes that internal satisfaction comes from making what matters first, and that external rewards follow from writing big, not the other way around.Books* Daring Greatly by Brené Brown* The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.TranscriptHi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. This is a Write Big session, where I’m bringing you short episodes about the mindset shifts that help you stop playing small and write like it matters.Today I’m talking about a concept that I haven’t spoken much about before, and it’s a big one for me, and it might take a bit of explaining. The concept is a metaphor, and it has to do with an arena, with being a writer in an arena. And if the image that just came to your mind involves gladiators and bloody battles, that’s not what I’m talking about.What I’m talking about is Taylor Swift. So think of someone who gathers the people to them, who owns the spotlight and captivates the heart and soul of their fans with [00:01:00] intentional content that they make, and who’s so fearless about their work that they’re not gonna let anyone or anything stop them from doing it.Writing doesn’t happen on big stages or in big stadiums obviously, but we’re gonna borrow this image because it’s the vibe I want writers to cultivate, and it’s the heart of writing big. My arena metaphor has a lot of origins. The most obvious one is the quote at the beginning of Brené Brown’s book Daring Greatly, where she’s referencing the Teddy Roosevelt quote about the man in the arena.That Roosevelt quote had to do with politics and not standing on the side and criticizing others, but stepping into the fray and being part of the mix. And what Brené Brown said was this: “If you are not in the arena getting your ass kicked on occasion, I am not interested in or open to your feedback.There are a million cheap seats in the world today filled with people who will never be brave with their own lives, [00:02:00] but will spend every ounce of energy they have hurling advice and judgment at those of us trying to dare greatly. Their only contributions are criticism, cynicism, and fear-mongering. If you’re criticizing from a place where you’re not also putting yourself on the line, I’m not interested in your feedback.”These are obviously powerful words, especially coming from a woman, because I think it’s true that women who dare greatly get more criticism than men who do. So that’s one of the influences for this metaphor. But another is the book The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker. If you haven’t read this book, I highly recommend it.It’s about this whole idea of gathering people, and she’s talking about physically gathering them in meeting rooms and at weddings and at Thanksgiving and things like that. And her main point is that you have to be intentional about the purpose of your gathering. If you don’t know why you’re bringing people together and what experience you want them to have- They’re [00:03:00] not gonna have an experience that’s memorable or transformative.And when I read that book, I thought, “This is true for writers, too.” This is what my blueprint books are all about, being intentional about what you’re doing with your writing, no matter what you’re writing. You have to know why you want people to gather around your words and ideas. You have to know what you’re bringing them together for.And as I began to think about Brené Brown’s Daring Greatly and Priya Parker’s idea of gathering, I began to think about this idea that writers are gathering people, too, and I began to think about an arena. What if you could picture your readers in an arena? And these thoughts were all going down in my mind around the time of Taylor Swift’s Eras Tour.We were seeing these images of 50,000, 60,000 people in these stadiums just packed in with no seat empty, and the lights are low, and they’re holding up their phones. And it [00:04:00] was obviously so moving for all the people in that audience who showed up there and experienced that and took the time and effort and energy to be there in that room or in that space.So Taylor Swift became the other thread of this idea that writers, too, are gathering people, and so you have to think about who you want to be in those seats of your arena. Who do you want to play to? Who do you want to speak to? Who do you want to create this experience for, and what do you want for them?But also, what do you want from them? I didn’t go to one of the Eras Tour concerts, but I watched the six-part documentary about it and the last concert that she filmed as part of that whole endeavor, and there was such a through line about intention to what she was doing on that tour. She talks all the time about creating emotionally meaningful and immersive experiences for her audience, so she’s not just [00:05:00] entertaining them.She wants them to feel something, and she’s so deliberate about that. Her whole thing about secrets and surprises feeds into that, and I loved these parts of the documentary where, where she shows the behind-the-scenes work with the different guests that she would bring onto the show and how they tried to craft some sort of surprise for the audience and tried to keep it a secret, and there was just so much delight in the way that they were approaching this.Taylor Swift would always say things like, “People are gonna lose their minds.” That seems to be a catchphrase of hers, and it’s what she wants. She’s like, “They’re gonna lose their minds, and it’s gonna be so great.” And this joy in creating the experience for those people who have come and this dedication that...I think she did 149 shows on the Eras Tour, that every single one of them was going to be impactful to the people who came. Not just like, we’re [00:06:00] gonna get out there and do a good show and give it our all and put our energy out there, but I wanna blow their minds. I want to make these moments of delight, and that intention is clearly what feeds Taylor Swift.She talks about that very specifically, that she loves the energy and feedback that she gets from that audience. So in the arena, you’re performing or creating for the people you’ve gathered there, but you’re also getting something back from them. You’re getting this communication or this energy that reflects back to you or comes back to you, and that’s obviously why performers do what they do.You would not get up on a stage 149 times in front of 60,000 people and put yourself out in that way if you didn’t love that. And I think writers need to think about this, too. What are we putting out there for our fans or our readers? What do we want to get from them, and what do we want them to get from us, [00:07:00] and what is that energy exchange like?So I want you to think about the arena of your writing life. It’s a place where you’re gonna show up with your whole self with intention, and you’re gonna do the best work that you’re capable of. It’s where you’re gonna stop playing it safe and claim your full creative power. When someone writes with that kind of authority, they feel the satisfaction deep in their bones, the sweet reward in and of itself.It has actually nothing to do with the external rewards of the marketplace. It has to do with what you wanted to make and the fact that you went out there and made it and you called people, you gathered the people around to be part of it with you. And the paradox of this whole thing is that when you decide to step into the arena and play big, it comes across in the writing, and that leads to the exact external rewards that most writers crave.It doesn’t work the [00:08:00] other way around. You can’t go after those external things and feel the internal satisfaction. You have to do the work that’s gonna feed that internal desire that you have and that thing that you want to make and that you want to create for yourself in order to get the things that you want from your writing.So this metaphor of creating the arena for your writing life and stepping into it in your fullest power and learning how to be the person in the spotlight is something that I want you to really think about. All of the 14 questions in my blueprint for a book process are really about this. Why are you writing a book is really why do you want to gather people to you?Why do you want to be heard and seen? And who are you writing for is who do you want to invite into that arena and put in those seats and play for? Your arena is going to be different from every other writer’s arena on the planet because [00:09:00] no one is going to answer these questions the way that you are.Nobody’s going to write what you are. So take this idea of daring greatly and being brave with your own life and putting yourself out there and marry it with this idea of gathering people around you with intention and designing the experience that you want them to have. And no matter what you think of Taylor Swift as a musician or a performer or a human, take from her this incredible delight in showing up and delivering something meaningful to your fans.And those things together are going to transform your writing life. There’s going to be no way that you can’t write big. And if you do that, there’s going to be no way that you can’t derive deep satisfaction from doing this work. Until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.[00:10:00]The hashtag amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Andrew returns with his latest blueprint for a gothic mystery, and the coaching quickly zeroes in on what will make it work: a clear, compelling villain and twists that truly land. With help from thriller coach and Thrillerfest executive director Samantha Skal, the discussion unpacks the hidden layer of the story—what the villain is actually doing—and how that contrasts with the protagonist’s assumptions.As they dig in, it becomes clear that strengthening the mystery means making the murders more personal, introducing a convincing false suspect, and mapping both the visible story and the truth underneath it. By the end, Andrew has a sharper path forward: deepen the villain’s motive, raise the stakes earlier, and build each twist so it feels both surprising and inevitable.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.About Book Coach Sam SkalA fan of the scary, mysterious, and suspenseful, Samantha Skal is the Executive Director of ThrillerFest, the co-founder of Shadows & Secrets writing retreats, and an Author Accelerator-certified book coach who specializes in coaching mystery, thriller, horror, and suspense authors. Sam writes stories that keep her up at night, is a breast cancer survivor, and lives in the beautiful Pacific Northwest. Learn more at www.samanthaskal.com and www.shadowsandsecrets.com. Catch Up on Andrew’s Hot Seat Coaching JourneyTranscriptHi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most.This is a hot seat coaching episode where we work through a real challenge in real time.And today we’re back talking with Andrew Perella, the hashtag am writing podcast producer who has stepped out from behind the mic to work on a novel. And where we left Andrew last time was you’d worked through the whole blueprint and you were tasked with completing. Inside outline. So before we get into our guest and, um, what we’re gonna do today, how was that, what was it like for you?Um, I mean, it was, it was, uh, really hard. Uh, but it was, it was, uh, it was really gratifying and it was, it was a lot of fun to do as well. Um. Because I think, um, part of, part of the assignment, you, you, you left for me, [00:01:00] Jenny, was to also beef out certain elements of certain, certain, the presence of certain characters, um, and certain and certain elements of the book.And so I was trying to do that as well as. As, as crafting the outline. Um, and so yeah, it was, it was a long, it was a struggle. It was a struggle, especially to get it to three, to keep it to three, to get it down to three pages. I know, and I’m very strict about that for reasons you are. Um, and. Did you feel a sense of accomplishment when you did it though?Like, oh, this is a book and I’m writing it, or how did that land? Yeah, I mean, like at first I just started writing. I started writing the scene bullets and the, and the points, and just started like, okay, what are all the, what are all the elements that that. I have in my head that I need to get down onto paper and it was like 6, 7, 8 pages.And I was like, okay, now I gotta get this down to three pages. Um, and, and, and I was like, okay, I can combine these two scenes or maybe I don’t need this. So I just ended up cutting a lot and cutting a lot [00:02:00] and getting it down. So like, yes, there was a sense of like. Completion. Um, that was certainly gratifying, uh, to get that.And, uh, I had a couple of late nights, um, getting that, getting that squared away, but yeah, it also feels, feels more real now. Um, and it’s like, yeah, there’s, there’s, there’s a, there’s a there here, which I’m pretty excited about. I’m excited about too, and I’m also excited because we’re doing something really cool today.Um, and we have with us Samantha Skull, who I will introduce in a hot second. But hi Samantha. Hi. Thanks so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here. Well, I’m excited too because, um. Sam, as I call her, um, I’ve known for quite some time. She’s one of the OG author, accelerator certified coaches. And Sam, you actually don’t know this, but I use you.Probably every day.Oh my God, I’m so flattered as an example of [00:03:00] what a great book coach should do, which is to focus and choose who you’re gonna serve and how you’re gonna serve them, and to really go deep into what you love and what you wanna do all day. Right? The read books all day and get paid for it thing like do what you love and you.Do that. You’ve done that just so powerfully and it’s so visible on your website, which we’ll link to in the show notes so folks can go see, but. Sam loves all the dark and suspenseful and scary mystery, twisty things, which always just cracked me up because I don’t, and that’s what’s so beautiful about book coaching and writing for that matters.Everybody has their own thing and, and that’s part of the work of writing Big is. What is your thing? You know? So the reason that I wanted Sam to come is she’s built a whole business on this type of work and with, um, another author, [00:04:00] accelerator coach, she runs a really cool, uh, writing retreat that is, um, it’s always in Salem.Right. It is in a haunted hotel, which, um, Carrie Savage, who is my co-founder in shadows and secrets, uh, loves being haunted. I do not choose to be haunted, so I choose the non haunted floor. So they have that retreat and they, um, have just started taking it virtual and just all kinds of tools and resources and things for people writing this kind of work.And in addition to that, I. I just am always impressed by your trajectory of having gone from. A volunteer at the Thriller Fest. Well, for a participant at the Thriller Fest conference to being a volunteer, to running the Pitch Fest piece of the thing. And now you’re, well then you were co-director, now you’re running the whole thing.You’re, you’re, yes, I am. You’re running the entire [00:05:00] Thriller Fest conference, which is how many writers every year. Oh, we have around a thousand and I have a team behind me. Just to be clear. This would not happen without a village, but uh, yes, we have around a thousand thriller authors who come to New York and we, uh, we talk about the dark stuff all week.It’s absolutely the, the best time. And it’s in two weeks. I can’t, I mean, when this comes out, it may have already passed, but yeah, can’t wait. No, this is coming out right before, so if anybody wants a quick getaway to New York, they should go. But also just the programming, watch the programming coming out of it and we’re so excited.Yeah, it’s really good. So, um, I just, I love the career you’ve built for yourself. It’s always just really inspiring to me. And, um, also a recent breast cancer survivor, so we’re, uh, always wanna shout out to that. Yes. Get your scans. That’s my PSA. Always love it. Same. Love it. Love it. So I wanted Sam to come look at Andrew’s inside [00:06:00] outline because I knew that the thing he has to work on is this, what I call in my not totally expertise in this area.I call the twisties of it. That there’s a, you know, it’s a mystery. It’s a murder, it’s a gothic, it’s horror. It’s all the things. And it, those twists have to land. And this is so much Sam’s expertise that the whole time I was talking to Andrew about it and guiding him and coaching him, I just kept thinking, we need Sam in here.So, so we got Sam in here. And so, um, Andrew completed his inside outline and Sam very graciously, um, agreed to look through it and to look through his whole blueprint. So before we get into what you saw and what you found, Sam. I just love to hear, I mean, this is so self-serving. I just like nothing more than reading a blueprint.I think it’s so fun. Um, just to like, [00:07:00] kind of peel back the, the cover and see what’s in there. Did, did you have fun with that? Oh my gosh. So much fun. Andrew. This story is, is so cool. And I love the historical elements and the rethinking of, you know, vampires are running around London and everyone’s just like, that’s fine.You know, and then how does, how does this all go down? And we have this very agency filled, moxie filled main character who’s just a delight and yeah, I loved it. I have, I have so many fun questions to ask you. So Andrew, how does that feel? I mean, it feels great and I, I was reading through, uh, through both of your notes, um, in the, in the, in the outline and like you’re asking all of these questions.Um. Some of them that I have not thought of before and like, so I’m, so I’m really excited to kind of dig into these and talk through them. But I’m, I’m, it’s really gratifying to hear that this, that this idea is, is, is, is an interesting one. Yeah. I loved it. I a hundred [00:08:00] percent read this book. I’d, I’d see it and be like, yes, I want, I want to be in that world.Cool. Well that’s why you’re here. Because I would be like, no, too scary. Too scary for me. So, um, I’m gonna let. Sam sort of take it away and, uh, we could talk for days, I’m sure about this, but one of the, the things I love about book coaches who are well trained is they’ll hone in on the most important, the most important things.So. What do you think, Sam? What’s the most important thing Andrew should be thinking about in his next iteration of this outline? Yeah, so my favorite thing to talk about outta the gate with Mr. Thriller and suspense and gothic horror, depending on how dark you wanna make this, um, is who is the person who’s really behind all these murders and why are they committing them?Right? I like to think of MTS mystery full or suspense as the villain’s journey as experienced by the [00:09:00] protagonist. Mm-hmm. Right. So we, we must know what’s going on beneath the surface in order for those twists to land, because twists are just assumptions about what’s going on that the protagonist makes.And when the truth, you know, what’s really going on with the villain is revealed, it’s twisty because it’s unexpected. Mm-hmm. So if we don’t, therefore if we don’t know who’s. Who’s behind, who’s doing all these villainous things. Um, we struggle to make those twists land and we struggle to get a blueprint that we can actually follow.So tell me your thoughts on who this mastermind murderer is and why they’re doing what they’re doing. Um, so. So Jack Seward is the, is the, is the Mastermind behind this. And I’ve been, I’ve been thinking a lot about it this week since I, since I finished the, since I finished the outline. And a lot of other things have occurred to me about who this gentleman is and how he’s doing what he’s doing.But I think the why is, um, he is committed to the status quo. He is committed [00:10:00] to, uh, uh, uh, uh, a, you know, uh. He is committed to the manosphere. He is committed to the patriarchy. He has committed to, um, the previous way of doing things. Um. In, in, in society, in politics, in medicine. And so like he’s seeing this sea change, um, in all of those areas.Um, with the advent of this, of this, um, medical school for women, uh, with the, with this vote, um, vote, uh, that is happening. Um, and he disapproves and so his goal is to disrupt all of those, um. Disruptions di uh, by pitting them against each other. Got it. So if he can, if he can. Create this illusion that vampires are preying on Suffr jets.They will be too busy fighting each other to try and find any sort of, uh, agency for [00:11:00] themselves. Aha. Very, very well thought out. I love that. As a, as a mastermind villain goal. So here’s the other thing, is that mm-hmm. In the genre expectation for any sort of modern mystery, full or suspense, is that we have three twists.We have one at the mid and we can have more. Right. But we have one at the midpoint, which is just the midpoint turn. Like it’s, it’s a classic story thing, which you already have. You have a great midpoint currently. Mm-hmm. Um, and the climactic twist is the reveal of, uh, as, as Carrie, my co-founder and shadows and secrets likes to say, um, the climactic.Confrontation answers the story question, which is presented in the inciting incident and typically in mysteries, the inciting incident is who’s doing the killing? Right? Like, who’s behind this dead body that we have early on? And we’ll talk about that in just a second. Um, so the climactic answers that question, and then we have a final twist, which is typically the reveal of this gentleman who wants to keep things as is.And he [00:12:00] meanwhile. During the course of the story is going to be taking action to stop, uh, our plucky protagonist from stopping him, right? Mm-hmm. So he’s a full antagonist to our protagonist. And in that way we need a fake villain, right? We need someone that he can have set up so that she thinks this is the person behind everything in the climactic scene.And then she gets to the end and is like, oh my gosh, I’ve. You know, I’ve conquered, I’ve brought chaos to order, I’ve solved this thing, and now, oh my God, now there’s somebody else who’s actually behind everything. And actually we’re still in grave danger and we didn’t even know to be worried about this.And that’s how you get that like, you know, 85 to 98% just ripping through the pages readers, you know, being so hooked to figure out what happened. Right. Um, so. Tell me a little bit more about who Seward could have set up or manipulated or something [00:13:00] else to commit these murders so that he gets done what he wants to get done, but he also protects himself.And if you don’t know the answer, that’s okay. We can brainstorm. But if you do, then that’s great. So this is, this is kind of part of the, the, the thought, the idea that I’ve had since I, since I finished the, the, the, uh, the outline is. Because the, the syringe idea mm-hmm. The double-headed syringe idea always felt a little tenuous.Uh, like I, I wasn’t quite sure that that was gonna hold, but, so my new thought about this is, is. Because he is, uh, he is the, uh, director of a mental institution. Um, and so, and so, like, that’s a whole other politic where he has people who are, uh, who are in his thra essentially. And so is there a way that he can coerce, um, a vampire who needs him to commit these murders on his behalf, thereby kind of insulating himself from the actions.Perfect. And [00:14:00] so I think that could, so the climactic twist would then be. It’s a vampire I disco discovering that the, the, this is the vampires committing the murders. But then the, the, the final twist is, oh s**t, he’s been doing this at the behest of, of Seward, who’s her, you know, kind of Yes, yes. As it were in quotation.Okay. Yes. That sounds amazing. And it also, you know, when we step into this story, um, in your initial scene, we have. Vampires feeding on people and Abby’s just like, uh, okay, that’s, that’s normal. Right? And so is that, did I read that right? Is that the world that we’re in? Is that We have vampires existing and Van Helsing, you know, was the one who kept them in check.And we have all that like lore that we’re dealing with that the reader brings in. So tell me more about the world I’m walking into here. So, yeah, I think I’m still developing this world. So we’re 20 years. Around 20 years after the events of Dracula. Okay. The, the, the novel. And so, and I think, I think people are now aware that [00:15:00] vampires exist.And I think, you know, at this, at the same time, they’re being used as like this bogey man or, or, or straw man of like, everything that is wrong with, with British society. Um, but they’re also. Not the monsters, right? They’re, they’re just another, another, um, community that is trying to, uh, eke out, eke out some sort of existence.Um, I love that so much. It’s just such a fun, sort of new twist on. Know a story that’s so well known and has been in our collective conscience for a hundred years. You know, I don’t know when, when Dracula came out. Correct me if I’m wrong, but a long time, right? A little over a hundred years. Yeah. It’s been a minute.It’s been a minute. Um, and so I, so it’s still very much a period of transition as, as you know, London and the world are still trying to figure out what that means, that these things actually exist and live among us. Um, and, uh, and so. There were [00:16:00] some things that didn’t make it into the outline like I had.There was this one scene where they’re walking down the street and there’s someone on the soapbox at speaker’s Corner at Hyde Park who’s railing against, who’s railing against, uh, um, vampires as like a sturge on society and things of that nature. And, and there’ll be things in the newspaper. I think that kind of addressed this new, this new politic, um, that, that the characters interact with.And so I’m still feeling out what exactly it means. That vampires exist and are part of the public consciousness. Yeah. So one sort of logical question that comes up for me there is, you know, if we’re in society and there’s just like monsters living among us who occasionally pick people off on the street, that would create a level of, um, extreme tension.Okay. Right. One might say, right, like, yeah, if I’m wandering down the street and I see a vampire eating somebody that’s not just like a, you know, we would be taking steps to protect ourselves because humans are always going to protect themselves, and so yes. You [00:17:00] know what, if you change it where the vampires are only allowed to feed on like livestock or something.Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, something that’s like the, nobody’s happy, right? Yeah. Like, like most, uh, um, situations where we, we agree on something and we’re, we’re all giving something up. Yeah. But that allows them to exist in society and live among us. Right? Like the, the veil has been lifted. Vampires are here.But they’ve agreed to only eat livestock, and then the fact that they’re murdering people by eating them then becomes. A huge deal. Right? Because this Deante that we’ve had with them is now broken. Mm-hmm. Um, something like that, because I think if we, if we have it just being casual that they’re, they’re eating people in alleys or whatever, it reduces, I mean, that’s a fun story, don’t get me wrong.Yeah, yeah. But that reduces the impact of the murders that we are seeking to solve with this and Right. You know, you said this was, this was a mystery. And so currently [00:18:00] we don’t have a ton of mystery on the page like we have. The midpoint is where, um, she discovers that things might not be what they seem, which I love.But in order for that to have impact, we need something earlier. And that could be, you know, these murders have been happening for a few days. That could be the last year. It could be she sees the first murder. Um. Something along those lines, but we need something early. So we, we understand the tension and we understand the mystery story question because you have a ton of other story questions in here, but if this is mystery first, the mystery story question needs to be who committed, who is committing these murders and why?Yep. Yeah. Does that kind of, that makes sense? Land? Yes. No, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. Now as a, as as I was, I was rereading the outline, the other, the other, the, the other night. And I was like, I feel, I feel like there needs to be another murder scene. Yeah. Earlier we gotta up the body count in the, the book.Yeah. You know, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a conversation I have every day. [00:19:00] Yeah. Not, not enough dead bodies. Not enough dead. Not enough dead bodies. Yeah. So, you know, and so if she is, if she’s really worried about, you know, that’s their question is why, why is she so involved in solving these murders? How do we make it personal to her?Mm-hmm. And so could this be a friend? Could this be. You know, um, a sister, could this be an aunt, like some something that’s related to her so that this person is taken out. And then that becomes Seward has targeted her because she’s the, she’s, you know, van sing’s niece, right? Yep. Yeah. So she’s a public figure that if he takes out by having a vampire.Quote, you know, kill her. Then he will have achieved his goal of disrupting this whole thing and be like, look how dangerous it’s for women to be out in the world and you know. Mm-hmm. We should put a stop to this. Like that achieves his goal, but she won’t know. Right. Obviously that [00:20:00] that’s his goal. Right.But he also needs to create the unrest, so it’s not just, you know, she’s the one who’s murdered. That’s going to be the climactic plan and he will have killed other people in the meantime. Right. Okay. Something like that. Like we need to make, yeah. Whatever it is that needs to be personal to her. And if she paint, if she paints a target on her back later on by being a ksky, amateur sleuth, which is classic.Um. That works well as well. But I like, you know, one of the questions I love to ask is, what was your villain doing on the day that their prote, the pro protagonist, decided to ruin their life by deciding to go after and stop them from villain. And so maybe she had nothing to do with any of this and she’s researching and becomes a problem.That’s the other way you could play it. Mm-hmm. Um. But, you know, if he has this grand plan and he’s like, Ooh, Abby would make a great sort of like, figurehead to the end of all these murders, and that’s the one that I’m gonna point at it and be like, [00:21:00] look, we can’t, you know, I, we can’t have these women out here.Right? Something like that could work well. Um, what do you think? What, what’s, what’s your brain do when I say all those things? Um, it’s interesting. I hadn’t considered, I hadn’t considered that her uncle would be targeting her. One of the things I’ve been grappling with was like. One of the reasons he targets people around her is to scare her away from med school to scare her away from the cause, okay.Um, and kind of pin her in further to the existing, to the existing, um, um, status quo. Um, and so I hadn’t considered him using her. Sacrificing her for his, uh, for his ultimate goals. Yeah. Um, and that’s an in, that’s an interesting idea. And, and if she were to discover that would certainly up to stakes, um, that would certainly up to stakes for her.It would. And so if you want him to be a little more [00:22:00] empathetic Right. We don’t need to go like full dark if you don’t want to. Right. Um, he could be trying to protect her. By killing other people, which is misguided. Yeah. But, uh, fun. Right? And then that would make sense. So when she figures out it’s actually him, he could be like, I was doing all of this to protect you because I love you.You’re in my family. Right? Yeah. That also works. But we need to have whatever his, his plan is for causing, you know, using these murders to achieve his goal. If she’s, she needs to be the target of it so that it’s very personal to her as she moves through this story. Um, and upping the stakes is always great.It amps the tension, right? Yeah. And again, she’s not gonna know any of this until she gets to that final twist. And so one of like the most fine chilling, you know, tingly things that you can do with mysteries is that reveal at the very end. We as through the protagonist, understand how much danger we were in [00:23:00] this entire story, and we had no idea.Right? And that moment is the one that we’re seeking with readers and for ourselves, right? It’s like, how do we have that moment that reveal have the biggest impact possible? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Something like that. Yeah. I, I see Andrew just grinning, like, what are you, whatcha feeling? He’s just like, got his giant grin on his face.I mean, like, and like I said, I’ve been trying to figure out how, because it, because as I was reading, as I was reading through the outline, it did feel like, like abriana was just kind of like adjacent to mm-hmm. All of the murders. Um, and, and Jenny, you and I had talked about whether there was an active investigation and, and, and Sam, I think you kind of alluded to that in, in the notes, is there, is there an active investigation and like, is she, is, is Abriana being.Is, uh, uh, coroner does a suspect by the, by the investigators. Um, is that, why, is that why she is doing her own investigation? Um, [00:24:00] which is another, which is another way to to, to up the stakes. Mm-hmm. Also, um, I, yeah, I’m, I’m, that’s an interest, that’s an interesting way though to, that’s an interesting take on Seward, who’s, um, an avuncular figure.He’s not, like, he’s not a blood relation. To Abriana, but like he is, he is determined in his goal and like, you know, he would, he probably would stop at nothing to get that done, even if it meant, even if it meant, uh, the daughter of a friend of his got killed. Yeah, I mean, just thinking through, and this is your homework, really, is to think through how dark do you want to make him, right?Because you can have a villain who starts off with. A, uh, a goal and decides to achieve it through very ill-advised means, but still wants to protect the people around them, right? Like they can be both. We don’t have to have it be a hundred percent. [00:25:00] This person is so evil and willing to burn it all down, right?And so, but that can also be a series of bad decisions. It’s like bad decision one leads to, oh my God, like people are finding out that these aren’t really vampires. Now I have to really like double down to make it really seem like vampires, so I don’t get caught. Because guess what, if I get caught, my life is ruined.Right? And you know, as Abby gets closer, he realizes. I have to kill her. Right? Yeah. She’s, she’s gonna ruin everything. Yeah. And that sort of angst and that, you know, that would be very painful for him. That could be the thing that when she confronts him at the end, and there will be a de Ma, right? We’re gonna have something where he’s like, I did all these things for this reason.And it doesn’t have to be Yeah. Pages, but we do have a, that’s a classic mystery thing. Mm-hmm. She’ll understand if you like this, that you know, he was trying to protect her and then. He’ll be like, you did this to yourself. You know, like, right. Yeah. You’re the one who got in the way. Um, something like [00:26:00] that.And he’s like, mm-hmm. My only choice now is to kill you. And then of course she will not allow that because she’s our lucky protagonist and will survive because chaos will be brought to order. That’s the other big thing is we wanna wrap this up unless you’re going who, in which case. It gets worse at the very end.Um, is, is that, is that, is that allowed? Yeah, we, yeah. Well, to keep chaos on the chaos, absolutely. We just need it genre bending is. So hot right now, right? Um, and it’s really fun, right? So you can have both, you can have the main mystery wrapped up, like she can, Abby can figure out, okay, this wasn’t actually vampires and someone is posing as a vampire.And so that actually changes your midpoint, by the way. We’ll talk about that in a second. But if that’s the arc, right? She thinks it’s vampires. She is, when she does the climactic confrontation, she’s like, it’s vampires like someone, you know, what are they doing? Why are they doing this? And then realizes [00:27:00] in that, that it wasn’t vampires and it’s actually someone else.Um, the chaos will be brought to order in that way, right? Like we have, we have a right, we have figured out that someone was posing as a vampire. But what if you have a final, final twist where you know, there actually are vampires. Killing people as well. Like seaward only admits to three of these murders and then there’s someone else doing, you know, and it’s just like we end it with like, oh no.You know? Right. Yeah. Or by, maybe there’s something mystical with like by imitating a vampire or that, you know, the vampires have been gathering their energy for the last 20 years by feeding on goats and you know, they’re ready to, we need a new van Helsing to, to keep them under control or something. And Abby takes up that mantle and, you know.You can, you can totally play it where there’s an unanswered. Okay. Oh no, it’s worse at the end, but we do need some sort of wrap up of the story. Gotcha. But there does seem to be some cover resolution. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I see what you’re saying. That makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. So it strikes [00:28:00] me, I’m not sure that you picked this up, Sam, and you might not have, but that there’s a.Uh, um, Mina the Vampire. Mina, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is is her mother. Right. I did pick up on that, and that’s a question I have. Okay. Yeah. Great. Because it seems like what you’re all talking about that could play a really important role in any of these twists and arcs. Right. I. Yes. Yes. Plus one. Yeah. Everything you just said.Um, yeah. So Mina being her mother, fantastic. One of your final twists, right? And particularly if you have Seward being like the final confrontation, final twist person, and then, you know, you have this lovely final scene where she’s like, oh my God, it’s my mother. Um, yeah. But the logical question there is why would Mina Hyde, what’s she after?Why would she not have tried to help Abby? Right? Because you’re dealing with reader expectations that mothers will do anything to protect their children. Right? And so you can, we can twist that. Maybe she is trying to protect her from what’s coming, right? [00:29:00] Like what’s actually going on. Maybe she’s the one who’s been protecting her the whole time by warding off the vampires that have been attacking her, her friends at medical school.Um. And that’s why there’s so many mistaken identity things, right? Because you have two where, where Abby’s like, whoops. I think that was supposed to be for me. Yeah. Um, and so the reader’s gonna wonder why are they so bad at killing her, right? Like, if these were assassin attempts, like why wouldn’t what, what’s going on?And so that answers that question. If it’s Mina stepping in, but you know, we need to understand what Mina’s really after and why she didn’t step forward sooner. That’s a huge question that, you know, yeah. Everyone will have. Yeah, it is a huge question. Like, like where has she been for the last 18 years?Mm-hmm. Why has Aubrianna not seen her since, since, since her birth? Um, and I haven’t quite nailed that down yet. Like, is there some sort of like vampire code? I don’t like, I don’t know. Is it, is it that she’s, is that she, that Mina. Knows [00:30:00] Jonathan, her husband too well, and knows that, that he would not allow a vampire, uh, to interact with his children.Like. And so I think there, I think there are a couple of answers to that, but I haven’t like, landed on one yet. Um, but I, like, I, I like the idea of Mina working kind of behind the scenes to protect, to actively protect, um. Abriana, which is what that, that opening that, that, that scene in the alley earlier on is about, is like she comes to her aid at that point.Um, and, uh, and, and and physically puts herself between, between Abri and Abriana and the violence, which Abriana misunderstands, uh, and runs away terrified. But I think, I, I think there are ways to incorporate that, as you say. Elsewhere in the, elsewhere in the story. Yeah. Well, I mean she, to make to a fantastic twist would be, she assumes Mina is the one after her, right?Right. Yeah. Like she recalls in this opening scene that Mina was coming at her and is like, Ooh, that’s the vampire that wants to kill me. Yeah, yeah. And [00:31:00] you know, sees her around. And so that’s her assumption. And this is how you create twists, right? Her assumption is that Nina is the person behind all of this, and why, but.You run the risk of when she starts investigating Mina and figuring out who she is? It would be, we’d figure out we need some very good reason that she couldn’t figure out that was that Mina was her mother, right? Yeah. Yes. So in that case, I would suggest having some other vampire be the one that she thinks is behind everything.Um, which leads me to the midpoint. So currently this is where she discovers that these bite marks are not bite marks at all. They are. Other Marks syringes. Right, right. Like the, yeah. Yeah. Um, so if that’s the midpoint, which I like, again, that means that she’s going to assume that there is a human or a vampire who’s lost her teeth.I don’t know, um, behind all of this. And the climactic confrontation will be with that, [00:32:00] with that knowledge that this is not a vampire doing these villainous things. Um. So how does that feel? Like do if, do we, is there someone in the cast that we can sort of have her assume is that person that’s not Seward.Not, not someone that I’ve identified yet. Um, okay. But I, I, I, I agree with you. We need, we need someone that she, that she’s pursuing and, uh, in, at, in, in that sense. Um, and, and she believed, I, I, I see, I see. Now I see what you’re saying. That the, the importance of her making that, that, that incorrect assumption that this is the person who’s, who’s doing, who’s doing the, the killings.And I don’t know who that is yet. I don’t know if there’s someone actively in the, in the cha in the cast that we have, or if I need, if I need a new character. Okay. I mean, you can also play with, you know, so this is the thing about mysteries, it gets very quickly complicated, is on the surface we have all the assumptions which are incorrect.[00:33:00] Right? Right. And so we have to build up that, those plots and make it plausible. Yeah. Because we need, you know, the example I like to give is like, let’s say you, you come home and you’re expecting that no one else is there and there’s an open window and there is a earring back on the counter and a bloody footprint on your.You know, nice white carpet and you know, um, a knocked over plant and then you recall, oh yes, you know the nab I’ve been babysitting the neighbor’s cat, they knocked over the plant. So that’s solved. But this bloody footprint is really freaking me out because clearly somebody came in here and made a bloody footprint and that’s terrifying.You’re focusing on the bloody footprint because that’s the most obvious thing, but the earring back is the thing that is the villain clue. Right, and that, that’s the person that came in and misled you by putting the bloody footprint on the carpet for reasons, capital R, whatever it is in this story, right?But we have clocked on screen, on the page what the clue is and ignored it. And so yeah, [00:34:00] this is how you can go back in on a revision and you know, you maybe we don’t know who this other person is that’s actually doing this, but they will have a vested interest in not being caught. Right? Mm-hmm. And so these little clues that we put on the page later are ignored, and then we’re following the story that we’ve already created.Mm-hmm. Um, but keeping track of all these layers feels complicated, which is why Jenny’s outline with three pages is so, so useful. Um, right. Because what the, what’s on the page is the, is the story that you already, that we’re focusing on, right? Mm-hmm. And then what really happened? Mm-hmm. Is the thing beneath the surface that we don’t learn until the truth is revealed in one of these twists.Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. No, that absolutely makes sense. That Absolutely. That also feels like a lot to think about. It is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I don’t have, I don’t have enough red earrings. I don’t have enough mis, I don’t have enough misdirecting. Misdirecting clues, as it were. Right. Well, those are fun to brainstorm, right?Because we start thinking [00:35:00] about who really, it comes back to Seward. Like what would he be doing to misdirect Abby away from this? Right. To keep her safe, if you like that as a goal. Yeah. And also to make the, make society freak out about how vampires are killing again. Mm-hmm. Um, what would he plant, who would he manipulate?Who would he pay off? You know? Mm-hmm. Maybe there’s a vampire who knows about all of this, and. Is trying to kill the person that Seward is hired to do the syringes because Seward’s not going around and doing this. Abby would’ve seen him or you know mm-hmm. Recognized him or something. So he will have paid someone to, or it has someone in his organization who also believes in the cause.Yeah. And is doing this, and maybe that person’s a vampire. I don’t know. I do love the double syringe. I mean, I hope that stays. Yeah. Yeah. It’s good. It’s good. Is it? Yeah. I heard you say, I heard you kind of dismiss it, Andrew, but it, to me, that would be a perfect misdirection if [00:36:00] somebody finds that and now there’s this whole thread of assumptions about what that means and Yeah, but that it’s not really what it is or it’s not being used the way we think, or so.Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. Sam, you mentioned something because I was, I was getting close to like throwing that overboard. No, it’s good. No. Okay. Okay. I think it is good. So, so, so, so, but that could still be, that could still be used as a, that could still, I could still use it as a red herring potentially, uh, because it could still be a vampire at Seward’s behest committing the murders.But maybe they’re doing it with the syringe or maybe they’re, and or maybe they’re doing it a little bit with their own or Right. Or not. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to Jenny’s point, this could be a total, maybe. Maybe it’s not used for what we think. Maybe the double syringe is something completely unrelated and it’s like the best way to draw out the.I don’t know. I mean, depending on, maybe he is drugging the people in the [00:37:00] asylum, like giving them more drugs than they’re supposed to have. Right, right. And, and he devised, I mean, you know, devised a double syringe to deliver it and doesn’t want anybody to know that that’s what he is doing, you know? Yeah, yeah.Okay. Yeah, yeah. But if you wanna play with the idea that there’s also a vampire involved who believes in Seward’s? Cause then that, you know. That’s very interesting because it’s like, well, why? What do they want? You know? Yeah, yeah. Or even just someone who is, is being coerced by him, who does, doesn’t necessarily Yes.Believe in the cause, but is perhaps is, has perhaps been assigned to his asylum. Mm-hmm. And he’s taking advantage of, I love. Which I think, I think really makes sewer to a, a pretty despicable individual on a number of levels, which I, which I can like, well, I mean, he’s already killing people, so, right. You know, slippery slope.But that’s what, you know, it’s, that’s the, [00:38:00] that’s the thing is that his, his goals. We need to make logical sense when we get to the end and Right. You know, Abby figures out what’s going on, but he, he can also be empathetic. Right? Yeah. Like, why is he so scared of women? Yeah. Being in society, what is, what is that deep fear about?And that’s definitely something to explore as well. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, so we could, like I said, talk for days, for days about these things, but, um, it feels like this is a good place to leave Andrew with a whole bunch of work to do. And I’m just laughing because, um, this is such a perfect example of.Why we do a blueprint, right? There’s so much to work out. There’s so much to think about. There’s so many layers and levels to every story. And, uh, you know, we, we heard you today, Andrew, sort of going, well, I don’t know. I haven’t thought about it. I don’t know. I, I’ll have to see, you know, that’s, that’s the work and being in that.[00:39:00] Discomfort and that not knowing mm-hmm. And the, all the possibilities and making your choices. That’s, that’s a work, right Sam? Like that’s, it is, it’s so fun. But yeah, it’s mysteries are puzzles, right? Yeah. And we wanna guide the reader through the puzzle in a way that gives them maximum impact and maximum joy.For every reveal that we decide to put out there, right? We, we, we don’t want to casually have a reveal. Everything is on purpose. Um, and so I was gonna say on, on the inside outline that you have, um, a parallel one, or, you know, if you make it even tighter just to flow the flow of events, you can have a, what really happened?Um, line which tracks what the villain is actually doing. And I do find that that can be really helpful because it does get overwhelming with figuring out, okay, we have assumptions. Yeah. And those assumptions are, you know, lead to action and this is how we get a repulsive plot. But those assumptions are.Not going to be the [00:40:00] actual thing that is the truth. And so we need to track what the truth is and what our villain is doing to stop our protagonist from stopping them because Yeah, forces of opposition, you know, so just for our listeners to clarify that makes sense. What Sam’s talking about is a parallel inside outline is, is to literally do.An a three page outline for the, the villain? Yes, yes. Or to put a bullet point or a, a subpoint on the protagonists inside. Outline that. Tracks that, um, sometimes people color code that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, but the, that’s why we keep this so tight because if you start making it nine pages or 15 pages and then you layer these things, all of a sudden you have a 30 page outline, and now you’ve just got one of those giant story grid things that I find to be impossible to, to manipulate.Like we still want this to be manipulatable, right. So that you [00:41:00] can. Hold it in your hands and see it and, and then get to a place where you say, I can write that story. I love this story. I can write this story. That’s, so that’s what we’re going for. So, yeah. Um, Sam, could you maybe just summarize, um, Andrew will take some time to work on this next iteration to show me.Can you give him direction on key thing to think about and me direction on the key thing to look for? Yeah, of course. So the biggest thing is figure out what Seward’s really, why he’s really doing what he’s doing and how it relates directly to Abby. Right. What is, what action can he take that is about her, and that’s either protecting her or, you know.Um, killing someone close to her to scare her away, but then why, right? Mm-hmm. So figure out the, figure out what he’s really doing, and then look and see what actions, what other actions would he take about who this other person [00:42:00] is that he’s framing or manipulating, or blackmailing or whatever. And if that’s a vampire, then.You know, why does that work when we, when it’s revealed? Like, what else could be going on? That makes sense. Perhaps the vampires don’t want women and suffragettes to have this power because it threatens the power that they have in society currently, or something like that, or mm-hmm. Whatever it is. But figure out what, what’s really going on.That’s your homework, that’s your big homework. Mm-hmm. And then, you know, for the next iteration. More murder on the page, right? We need the attention to rise and we need to understand why Abby, as she takes her steps based on assumptions, what are those assumptions? Why is she so personally invested in this?Why doesn’t she just give up, right? Because that’s the big logical question that I always ask is for both the antagonist and your protagonist, why don’t they just walk away? Why do they keep doing this when it gets hard, right? Because when someone’s actively trying to [00:43:00] stop you as the protagonist is. For the antagonist, why would the antagonist not just be like, okay, this is too tough, right?Like, I’m, I’m out, uh, this is, my goal isn’t going to be achieved. So why do they both keep going? And the answer is usually we’re in too deep, right? We can’t, the only way out is through, um, which is what the midpoint establishes. Usually. It’s like, well, shoot, you know, I can’t leave this story. I have to keep going.Right? So the three twists, right? We want the assumptions to be present on the inside outline. So we have a midpoint twist. We have an inciting incident that presents the mystery story question, murder usually. Mm-hmm. And then climactic twist, who is this fake villain? And then final villain, Seward. And then final, final twist.Mina is actually involved, right? And has been protecting her the whole time or whatever, right? Yeah. Okay. So on the page, assumptions is second part of that homework, but you have to figure out what really happened in order to have the assumptions, which are Yeah, not [00:44:00] right. Yeah. So drawing, drawing out those two timelines of the, what, what actually happened, timeline, and then the assumptions, timeline and how they, well, the assumptions are gonna be on the page, right?Those will be on your protagonist inside outline, right? Because it, it informs her actions. And so everything you have about her fighting to go to med school and like all these things, all that works. All we’re doing is just tweaking it a little bit so that the mystery is more. Front and center, and she’s taking action based on, okay, I have this clue, what do I do?Now I have this clue. What do I do now? What stands in the way of each time I do this? Oops, I’m wrong about that. So what now? You know? Okay. And in the meantime it’s clear that her personal stakes are rising and she is becoming a target. There’s more attempts on her life and, and you know, then what? Right.Once you have a target on your back, you can’t run. Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah. Make it scarier. That’s your homework. Yeah, I do. I do. I have to put her in [00:45:00] peril. I have to put her in peril. Right? You do. Yeah. Yeah. And the final thing I’ll mention about this is when you actually get to writing the way that you, even if it’s, even if the actions are a little less intense, right?We don’t actually have an assassin coming at her every page because we’d get bored with that. So through interiority, through inner thought, she’s going to think about what she’s scared of throughout the entire book. Mm-hmm. It’s not just gonna be, oh, I assume this thing. It’s like I assume this thing. And also I’m terrified because you know what, if this is about that, and that’s how you create those red herrings too, is because she’s going to make assumptions about what’s happening, and those assumptions will be based in fear.Right. Love it. Right. That makes sense. Love it. That makes sense. Thank you. My God. You’re so welcome. Love this story. Can’t wait to read it. Are you still with us, Andrew? You’re not. You’re not walking away. Right. You’re not like, I’m in too deep now. No. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Just past the midpoint. Yeah, I was gonna say good.Good. No, that’s why, that’s why I’m, that’s why I’m grinning so [00:46:00] much. It’s like, it’s like, ‘cause we’re talking about this as if it’s an actual, real thing. It’s not just, it’s not just an idea that I’ve, I’ve, I’ve had and been, I’ve been telling my wife about this is an actual, this is an actual thing I’m talking with people about.Um, and so this is, this is real. This is. It is real. It’s exciting. Um, we will, uh, see how this unfolds for Andrew and Sam, I just wanna thank you so much for joining us and talking about all this. Um, and I’m gonna tell our listeners that if you want this kind of twisty help, um, that’s Samantha’s website, which is samantha skull.com and that’s SKAL.She has a really cool, um, very inexpensive twist. Course, which you can, um, take. It’s just awesome. And it’s, um, she got some blueprint stuff on there, all kinds of things. And you can learn also about the retreat that she runs with carrieSavage@shadowsandsecrets.com. And you can go to Thriller [00:47:00] Fest and see all of the big work she’s doing for this community of writers out in the world.So Sam, thank you for coming on. Oh, thank you so much for having me. And I just wanna say, Jenny, the reason that I focused, I mean, yes, I love this stuff and I have, I’ve loved it my whole life, but I listened to you. This was your. To focus in on what I love and I did. And it’s just the best I get to wake up every day and talk about murder, which sounds like a terrible hobby, but I love it.So here we are. I know. That’s why I talk about you all the time. Maybe that’s it. ‘cause you listen toI, I, uh, I push people a lot harder now, let’s put it that way. Um. Amazing. That’s, that is my craft. But thank you Andrew, again, for being so willing to be doing this in public. It’s not easy for those listening just to be on the hot seat like this for so long, so often really hard. So, um, you, [00:48:00] huge, huge shout out to Andrew and shout.Um, just for our listeners, thanks for tuning in and let’s get back to work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Anyone who ever listened to Jenna Blum do interviews on the A Mighty Blaze podcast will not be one bit surprised to hear that we had a great time talking all things writing but most specifically writing BIG—which Jenna has absolutely done with her current book, Murder Your Darlings. Murder Your Darlings is a contemporary thriller and a real departure from Jenna’s very popular historical fiction—a departure that’s totally in keeping with Jenna’s own enthusiastic, passionate personality. As her agent said, her earlier work was elegant and restrained (although still powerful) but in this one Jenna lets herself loose. We had a wonderful time talking about it, and I know you’ll have a great time listening. #AmReadingThe Plot and The Sequel, Jean Hanff Korelitz Last Seen, Christopher CastellaniYou, Caroline KepnesJoin Jenna on tour—she’s absolutely a joy to listen to on writing and probably any other topic! Dates HERE. And do grab Murder Your Darlings—who doesn’t love a tell-all thriller set in this ridiculous industry we all love so much?Hey—if you’re reading this in January 2026, it’s not too late to join our Blueprint Sprint and get in on a rapid-fire roadmap to writing the book you want to write this year (instead of writing 100K words in search of it… ask me how I know!) First Blueprint post below—upgrade your subscription to get started. Episode Transcript Below! SPONSORSHIP MESSAGEHey, this is Jennie. Happy New Year! If you’re a subscriber to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, you can join us in our Blueprint Challenge, which is starting on January 12. We’re going to be working on new book ideas, books where we’re stuck, and books that we’re revising, and using the Blueprint framework to help us get unstuck, get clarity, get confidence, and move forward. KJ is leading the charge this time with some write-alongs, some Ask Me Anything sessions, and all kinds of good stuff to help you on your way. I’ll be jumping in as well, and I’ll be cheering you as you get your books into shape and get ready to write forward in 2026. Details are in the show notes, and we’d love to have you join us.EPISODE TRANSCRIPTMultiple SpeakersIs it recording? Now it’s recording—yay. Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. I don’t remember what I’m supposed to be doing. All right, let’s start over. Awkward pause. I’m going to rustle some papers. Okay, now—one, two, three.KJ Dell’AntoniaHey, writers, KJ here. I just interviewed Jenna Blum, and any of you who have listened to her when she does the interviews on the A Mighty Blaze Podcast will not be one bit surprised to hear that we had a great time talking all things writing, but most specifically, writing big, which Jenna has absolutely done with her current book, Murder Your Darlings. Murder Your Darlings is a contemporary thriller and a real departure from Jenna’s very popular historical fiction, a departure that is totally in keeping with Jenna’s own enthusiastic, passionate personality. As her own agent said, Jenna’s earlier work was elegant and restrained, although absolutely still powerful, as you know if you’ve read it, but in this one, in Murder Your Darlings, Jenna lets herself loose. We had a wonderful time talking about it, and I think you’re going to have a really good time listening. Jenna, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us for the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast.Jenna BlumYou’re so welcome. I am the one who’s honored to be here. Thanks for having me.KJ Dell’AntoniaI am really excited. So, listeners, as you probably heard in the intro, which I haven’t recorded yet, I asked Jenna to join us because she’s doing a big thing. She’s making a jump into a new genre for her, and I can totally relate, and I suspect many of you can too. Her new book, which is out approximately now, as you hear this, is kill your dollar, Kill your darlings. [intended title: Murder Your Darlings] And it is one of those, like, if somebody wrote a book just for me, it would be this kind of book, or this possibly exact book, which is such a thrill. It’s, you know, that combination of the thing that makes me my buy now list, which is, isn’t a thing like that thing where you’re like, if you tell me the book is about such and such, I’m like, yes, yeah, just, just take my money. So it’s that, plus that really great, commercial, friendly, accessible, like the voice I want to read. It’s not—I mean, I don’t know if any of those adjectives thrilled you—but easy reading is hard writing, and nobody knows that more than me, and you do that very well.Jenna BlumThat is so kind of you, KJ. Thank you. So I’m going to rudely start out by issuing a small correction, but the...KJ Dell’AntoniaOh no.Jenna BlumActually, no, no, it’s fine. It’s Murder Your Darlings. And they’re...KJ Dell’AntoniaOh, okay, sorry.Jenna BlumPopular phrase. And one of the reasons I call the book Murder Your Darlings, as opposed to kill your darlings, which people tend to gravitate to, is that the book is really about writerly appropriation in the biggest way, about story thievery in the biggest possible go big or go home kind of way. And the phrase kill your darlings is itself an appropriation, which I didn’t know until I started writing this. But the original phrase is Murder Your Darlings. It was coined by a gentleman called Sir Arthur Quiller-Couch in 1914, and he was giving a lecture on good writing, and he said, whenever you think you’ve done something exceptionally clever in your manuscript, by all means, put it in, and then go in and take it out: murder your darlings. And then William Faulkner ran with it, and Stephen King ran with it, and it became really popularized. And I thought, how cool to go back to the original in a book about appropriation. So it’s Murder Your Darlings.KJ Dell’AntoniaIt’s also—that’s better. I can’t believe I got it wrong, because it has this great cover with the quill and the blood. And I—it that’s, that’s better. It’s just it, I don’t know, kill your darlings has also become a very glib phrase. So to switch it to Murder Your Darlings kind of makes—kind of gives you that record scratch moment of like, oh, oh wait. Oh! Right? So I like it.Jenna BlumI appreciate that. Thank you. I mean, I myself was thinking, kill your darling, so I love to, sort of like, care what of that phrase, that Murder Your Darlings had a sort of a weightier sound to it. And despite, like, the joy that I had in writing about writing, and I hope all your listeners just like me, I’m—my must order now books are all about writers, about writers about writing, especially fiction about writing. I had so much joy in that, but the book also has some pretty weighty subjects at its heart as well. So I feel like that weightier murder is somehow indicative of...KJ Dell’AntoniaWell, that brings us really well to the next question that I wanted to ask you, which is, what was your intention around this? This is definitely, you—now I think probably we step out with every book, but this is you stepping out and playing big, which is, you know, is a new theme that we’re talking about around here. So what was your intention for Murder Your Darlings? What did you want it to be?Jenna BlumI love that you’re doing the go big or go home theme. I always think that way. I’m not a quiet writer, not probably, not a quiet person.KJ Dell’AntoniaYou’re not really, no, not—that’s not what I would say. Oh, Jenna, she’s so shy and retiring...yeah. Yeah.Jenna BlumSo I had so much joy and so much fun writing Murder Your Darlings, because all I had to do was unpack my life. She’s such a wallflower. My sister saw a photo of me with a megaphone at a—as an activist at a rally, and she’s like, nobody here is surprised. This is what I’ve been living with for all the years. Anyway. So my intent with this was really just to have some fun, honestly. I have been working on historical fiction, and I’m known primarily for historical fiction, and I was working on historical fiction when the idea for Murder Your Darlings came to me, and I felt like I had two books trying to elbow their way through a doorway at the same time. And because I am more known for historical fiction, and my editor had already green lighted that idea, I was very dutifully working along on it—and it was a terrific idea, I have to say, like on paper. It was an idea on paper that should have been good, but it really wasn’t. There was no juice to it. So I kept writing, and then thinking, right, what was the motivation? What did the character actually want in that scene? And then I would realize I had no idea and didn’t care. And so I was thinking about Murder Your Darlings, which is about a female writer—mid career, female writer who falls in love with a stratospherically successful and very charming male writer and then finds out that he may or may not be killing female writers to take their stories, or is it one of the number of women who are stalking him, especially this very persistent stalker named the Rabbit. And so I had this idea kind of elbowing its way into my head, and I thought, I don’t, I don’t know if I’m qualified to write a thriller. I’ve written a thriller. Who am I to do this? And then I read Jean Hanff Korelitz’s The Plot, which is so good, so contemporary, so fresh, so funny, so smart, so everything. And I stalked her. I called her, got her phone number, called her, and said, how was it for you making this pivot, going from quote, literary fiction end quote, to writing a thriller? And she said, I just write what I want to write and let other people market it. You should write what you write. And I thought, Babu, because I had always loved reading about writers. I’ve always wanted to write about writers, and she kind of gave me—well, she literally gave me permission to do it.KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd like you said, it really has some bigger themes around that. Did they come with? Did they come with the idea? Did some of them come with the idea, and some of them had to get pulled in later? Like, how? How did that piece of it play out?Jenna BlumYeah, great question. I am a writer who always knows what her theme is going to be. I would have a mission statement on the board in my study saying, like, here’s what this book is about, and then I hope it reaches the reader through osmosis, as opposed to me being preached. So the plot has to express that idea. But then I am so plot focused when I’m writing and just wanting to get all the blocking down and get this play down so the reader doesn’t get bored that I have to go back through often and shade in the theme and the emotional resonances I hope are there. And one of the very big themes for me in Murder Your Darlings is of codependency, and what makes a smart, successful woman with a stable life, a good community, who’s a teacher, who’s a writer, who has really built her life for herself, fall for somebody who she knows very well may be sketchy AF. It’s like, okay, I’m just going to keep my hand on the hot stove. You know? Why is that? And I feel like, if you know a woman like this, if you were a woman like this, you are a woman like this. I certainly have been this way my whole life, like falling for the sketchy dudes and feeling great shame about it. I thought, I really want to write this book for all of us, or women or men—I should say this is not gender specific.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah.Jenna BlumOr that person who’s like, don’t open that door, and you open the door anyway.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah.Jenna BlumWhy?KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd people are like, so many flags, and you’re like, I kind of like flags.Jenna BlumBut he’s... but he’s so cute.KJ Dell’AntoniaHe looks so good in red.Jenna BlumRight? Exactly. And I have to say that the relationship at the center of the book between Sam, the female writer, and William, who’s the male writer, they do have some really rare commonalities too that are hard for Sam to overlook. And she comes from a trauma background, so she can’t trust her own instincts. And so I wanted to, as in all of my novels, work with people who have survived trauma: how they react in the atmosphere and the aftermath, and how their behavior gets kind of torqued or twisted, and sometimes makes it difficult for them to make the healthy decision, which makes...KJ Dell’AntoniaRight!Jenna BlumGood fiction. Good fiction is about people making bad, bad, bad decisions, so...KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd you make him real too. He’s not just bad for the hell of it. You know, it’s not—I— that’s one of the things that is a pet peeve of mine in books, is when you’re like, yeah, that person had really bad parents that really messed them up. But why? Like, yeah. I mean, you can’t have everyone and their parents mess them up. And I would totally do that instantly. That’s my beige flag. Would you like to know how their great, great grandparents screwed everyone up with epigenetics?Jenna BlumIt’s like the poem, right? Is it the Larkin poem? TheyKJ Dell’AntoniaOh, yeah, “They screwed him up,” yeah, yeah. But I always know, like, who screwed them up? And hey, who screwed them up? And who screwed them up?Jenna BlumThat’s a funny thing. Thank you for saying that. So William, and a third of the book is narrated from William’s point of view, and then Sam and the stalker the Rabbit get the other two thirds of the book, and Sam and the Rabbit go back and forth, and William has his own narration at the center of the book. I have to say, I loved writing William. I really did. He’s first person, like, in the guy’s skin. He is really arrogant, like, really narcissistic, and he was, and could never use a, you know, five cent word when a $30,000 word will do. But I really loved writing him, because, as you said, you’re right, like, he doesn’t, he doesn’t mean to be any of those things. And I mean, we all recognize a narcissist, which is such a hot word these days, and I mean, he is a legitimate narcissist, but he doesn’t need to be narcissistic. He just is that way, and he has his reasons that are very clear for being that way. And it wasn’t until—this is when you ask him, before, what did I put in afterwards?—it wasn’t until I was really done writing his first draft, and one of my writer friends said to me, but like, what were his parents like? And I thought, I don’t care. Like, I don’t care what his home life was like. I don’t care about any of that. But when I did go into that room, because I knew I had to, there were things in that room that were a chamber of horrors, that were like, truly grotesque. And I thought, this actually makes sense to help explain why he’s motivated the way he is.KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd why she would be drawn to him. Like, you know, he’s not just—there’s there is more in there. I, you know, not to excuse, not to excuse William. Is he the first character you’ve written that was, that was like that, deeply narcissistic, and in the first person?Jenna BlumThat is a great question. He’s not the first character I’ve written who is narcissistic. In my first novel, Those Who Save Us, there’s a Nazi officer who is deeply narcissistic and also totally unaware of his own qualities, which I guess actually defines a narcissist, like they have...KJ Dell’AntoniaOh yeah, yeah. I think if you know you’re a narcissist, you’re not a narcissist.Jenna BlumRight? Exactly, right, right. Nobody’s going to be like, I’m a narcissist. Who cares? I love being a narcissist. They’re more like the world serves to please me, and if it doesn’t, then the world is wrong. But this is the first I’ve written from the first person, and in fact, this is the first novel I’ve written anything in the first person. So the Rabbit in this book is first person—the stalker—and William is in the first person. Sam is third person. And I haven’t written in first person since graduate school, and when I did, I was kind of soundly spanked for it. And they’re like; there are graduate school scenes in this book as well. And in Murder Your Darlings, the workshop scenes that I love so much, because I pretty much just airlifted them from the [unintelligible].KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, which is the best. Absolutely.Jenna BlumAnd it’s so fun, so much fun to write, like grad school, boot camp, you know whatever... I’m here for all of that. Murders the people who it doesn’t make stronger, but, but yeah, I remember writing...KJ Dell’AntoniaSo what was that like to—what is it like to switch your normal writing perspective, so the POV to first person? And did you, did you do it from the right away? Or did you, you know, did you write it the wrong way and then switch it? How did—and did it bother you? Were you like, oh, no, I don’t know if I can do this?Jenna BlumNo. I loved it very much. I loved it so much. And William was actually not even supposed to be in the book, so I can talk about that in a minute, but the first, first person character to come in was the Rabbit, and she wasn’t originally supposed to be there either. It was supposed to be Sam narrating, and the third limited, which is my lane, and I’ve been in that for years and years. And I do love it. I love Sam’s voice as well. But the Rabbit came to me on Christmas Day. I want to say 2023, and I was thinking about Sam’s relationship with William, and how Sam, which is still in Murder Your Darlings, gets very jealous, because she knows that William is really opaque about his relationships with other women, and he cannot resist the charms of the opposite gender, shall we say. So Sam is stalking him. She still stalks him a little bit in this book. And I thought, what if one of the other women were also stalking him alongside Sam? And what would that look like? And I was supposed to be at a friend’s house on Christmas Day. Our whole family got the flu. I was lying in my apartment in Boston feeling wretchedly sorry for myself. It was raining. It wasn’t even snowing. It was a sort of Dickensian awfulness. And I was lying around feeling bad for myself and thinking about this, as one does. And then all of a sudden, I jumped up and ran into my study and put my hands on the keyboard and wrote what would become the prologue of the novel. It is unchanged, in that.KJ Dell’AntoniaWow!Jenna BlumAnd she just came out of freaking nowhere. And I will tell you, it was like plugging my hands into a socket. Like, every time I sat down to write the Rabbit, I just felt electrified. Her voice is not my voice. She’s very colloquial. She’s the person who tells it like it is, speaks truth to power, sits down at the kitchen table and says, like, look, here’s what you got to do. You all just follow suit, we’re going to do, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she just really is very plain spoken and very funny and very sarcastic. I think she’s also not me in terms of, like, what she looks like, in terms of her background. She comes from a poverty background. She comes from an abuse background. She’s a bookseller, which actually I was. But it was astonishing that, like, every day, when I looked at my schedule and I knew I had to write the Rabbit, I was like, oh, thank God, because every time I put my hands on the keyboard, she was there. And I just got such a kick out of her—stalking William, stalking Sam. I think she’s amazing. And there’s a big surprise tied up to the Rabbit. So not to spoil anything, but those of you who love, you know, your twists in your fiction will, I think, be—hopefully—be gratified by, by the twist with the Rabbit. William came in about halfway through. I want to say maybe the first draft. I was going Sam, Rabbit, Sam, Rabbit, Sam, Rabbit, and I was going into the second section of the book, act two, and I was going to continue doing that. And I had this whole outline. Sam, Rabbit, Sam, Rabbit, Sam, Rabbit—rising action. I knew all my plot points all sketched out. And then one day, I was like, what if, instead of sort of reheating these leftovers and trying to make the action continue to step ladder up, what if William gets a section in all of his William glory and all of his narcissistic glory? And that kind of gives the reader a little bit more reason to be hopeful for Sam and also scared for her, because we know from his perspective what his life was really like, and he’s not being truthful with her about it. And I called my editor and said, I’m going to do this thing, maybe, with your permission. Like, do you mind if I write, you know, some sample William chapters? And I was so nervous about it. I had this whole defense about it. Here’s why this is going to be good. She was like; I think that’s a brilliant idea. Do the whole section from his point of view, if you want to, if you want to. I think that’s great. And again, sitting down to write, I felt like I plug my hands into this socket. But William grounds the whole book with this sort of dark electricity, I think, because he is...KJ Dell’AntoniaSo you already had it from the other points of view? Did you have it planned, or did you have it written?Jenna BlumI had it planned. I had a plan. I had bits of scenes. I had snippets of scenes and chapters. But I have scenes they dearly love that are not in the book at all because William usurped...KJ Dell’AntoniaBecause he can’t—yeah, he doesn’t—well, and he is not there.Jenna BlumAccess, no. But, I mean, I kind of flipped them inside out in like a pocket, into, like, other parts of the book, so that, like, I know what Sam and the Rabbit are doing during William’s sections. And you see them, of course...KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, yeah.Jenna BlumFrom his point of view instead. It was not a darling I had to murder. Like, again, like sitting down to write his point of view was a relief, in some ways, to get out of my own skin. Getting into somebody else’s skin, in the first person, is the farthest you can go from yourself if that character is not, in fact, you. And that’s why I love writing fiction. I get out of my own skin into somebody else’s skin; walk around in that virtual reality. I just freaking love it. It’s the best part—kind of insanity there is.KJ Dell’AntoniaSo with this project, what did you love most about the process? Sounds like there’s going to be—sounds like there’s a competition, because it really sounds like you had—I mean, I’m sure there were some hard moments. We’ll get to that. That’s my next question, actually. But what did you love most? What do you love most about how it turned out, and what did you love most about doing it?Jenna BlumI love all the things. I literally have goosebumps when you say this. I mean, it is a competition, because I love this book so much. And I know you’re not supposed to say it about your own books, but I do. I just love this book, and it might be my favorite book that I’ve written. My favorite. I love it so, so much. I hope readers feel the same way. I think one of the reasons I love it so much is I think it’s really funny. Like, there was never a single day where I sat down to work on this book that I didn’t snort laugh, like, in the middle of the scene, because William is so charming and yet so horrible and fatuous and whatever. So he really made me laugh, whether I’m viewing him from the outside or from inside. And the worse he gets the more funny I thought he was. The Rabbit, likewise, in her speaking truth to power kind of way. And then Sam sections allowed me to spill the tea about the weirdness and the wonderfulness of the writer life, much of which is just so peculiar, whether you’re on tour or you’re trying to, you know, zhuzh an idea into being and you can’t quite get it, or, you know, being in a relationship with another writer. I mean, all of those things are just—they’re just nuts. And so every day I sat down and laughed and laughed and laughed and, like, cackled in my apartment, scaring the dog. And I thought it was so much fun. And now looking at the book and, like, holding it in my hands, I can open it to any page and be like, yeah, oh my God, I totally remember that line that was so great. So I hope people have fun with it. The early reviews that have come in have been, thank God, you know, Inshallah, they were great. And that’s what people have been saying. It’s a delicious book. It’s a fun book. It’s a delightful book. Nobody’s ever said this about my books before.KJ Dell’AntoniaIt’s totally very different. It’s totally, really different than your other work, right?Jenna BlumYes. Well, I mean, I think so. Like, when you’re not writing historical fiction, fiction requires—or at least it did for me—because I’m writing about big, serious things, you’re writing about World War Two, it’s probably not going to be all that funny. But I feel like the third person voice that I’ve been using most of my authorial career has been hopefully elegant and restrained, because I really, you know, working with my word choices—every author does—but I’m trying to maintain a very even narrative tone. This one is just so freaking off the chain, because I got to write in a contemporary way. I got to get into the first person, other people’s voices, other people’s experiences. It was interesting. My agent, who’s very, very smart, and she is French, and when I came to her and said, you know that historical fiction that you thought I was writing, it’s actually not that. It’s a thriller. That’s something different. She read it, and I was, again, sort of terrified of what she would say. And she called me, and she was like, [imitating her French accent] “Jenna, I think what you are doing is smart, but more than that, I think it is brave, because your whole life you have hide behind this voice you use for your historicals. And instead, this is like, really, you taking the gloves off. This is your voice. This is you.” And I just felt so validated and empowered by that observation.KJ Dell’AntoniaThat is exactly why we were—we are here. If this is—it’s so, so meet. We are meeting for the first time. Lots of times when I get somebody on the podcast, we’ve never encountered each other, and your vibe is so Murder Your Darlings. And really, you know, at this point in your life and in your career, this is really, you know, who you’re presenting as. And I, of course, don’t know how you presented, you know—maybe we should go back seven years to before a lot of things that have evolved in your life. I don’t know whether you were maybe a little more elegant and restrained yourself. I have no idea.Jenna BlumUh uhh, never.KJ Dell’AntoniaNo?Jenna BlumNope.KJ Dell’AntoniaI mean, it must feel so great to have released that part of yourself into this much, you know, loved part of your world.Jenna BlumIt just feels so much easier in a lot of ways. I remember—and I’m thinking about this while we’re talking—lying on the couch and watching the You series by Caroline Kepnes, like, based on a series of books that she’s written that are really tremendously good. And I remember I was looking for a binge at the time. I just finished something that was fantastic. And, like, you know, what am I going to watch? And I clicked into You, and I was so happy that I did because I thought, this woman writes the way people actually speak. Her dialogue is so smart. It’s so Cracker Jack. It’s so spot on. And I am now friends with Caroline. Caroline is amazing, and I remember saying that to her the first time I met her, just as a total fangirl. Like, how did you do that? She was like, this is just how I write, and I have not been giving myself permission for years and years to do that.But in fact, again, my agent would say to me, you know, [imitating her French accent] “You write these, these book, and you go to your readings and people think they’re going to meet, like, Margaret Thatcher or something, because books are very serious and very heavy and very, you know, weighty about this big topic, and then you are a goofball.” And I am!KJ Dell’AntoniaI love the French accent you are giving us here. As a student of French, I’m particularly enjoying it.Jenna BlumOh, I’m so sorry then, because my agent hates when I do this. She hates it. She’s like; please don’t use the French accent. I’m like, I have to use it. And she’s in the book, and her name is Mireille, and I wrote her exactly as she speaks. And she—my editor, whose name is Sara Nelson—is in the book as Patricia, and I pulled no punches or even tried to disguise them whatsoever. And they like to bicker over who is more important in the book, Mireille or Patricia. So that’s super fun. But I mean, I do think there is something really liberating about entering a scene, entering a chapter, and thinking, I don’t have to fancify this language. I don’t have to smooth over its edges. If I want to say somebody is sketchy AF, I say they’re sketchy AF.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, I don’t have to figure out how someone would have said that in 1942, which is—I mean, I do—I don’t want to—your past work, which I haven’t read all of, but what I have read is very much infused with a humanity and a female power. It may be elegant and restrained, but it’s in there. It’s like, you know, coiled, but it’s in there. So I don’t want to propose that those books aren’t really you. But this is, you know, this is definitely more who you come out of the box as.Jenna BlumYeah, there won’t be such a mismatch with this for readers who are coming to my work for the first time. If you do that and then you see me in person, you’ll be like, oh, this totally tracks, as opposed to... And I think one of the great things about writing fiction is you can be in that sort of disguise. And my previous fiction, the historical fiction—and I did have one contemporary novel in there as well—I think the topics were just not as funny to me. Like, writing life is very funny, and contemporary life is funny. But I think that writing historical fiction enables you to get in a time machine and go back and put on a different set of clothes, and that is reflected in the narration. And this, I think, shares some commonality with my other fiction, in that, like William, I am a friend of big vocabulary. Like, I love my vocabulary. I love to deploy. But it just feels more bouncy to me. Like, it just feels buoyant and super energized. And I love it. Like, I have three more thrillers lined up in my head on the runway that I would love to write.KJ Dell’AntoniaThat’s amazing.Jenna BlumSo I’m really excited about—I hope this book does well. So everybody should buy it, please, so I can write more thrillers. Please.KJ Dell’AntoniaEveryone do that. We’re going to put all the links for that in the show notes. So one more question before we turn to me asking you about other people’s books. What was the hardest thing about writing this? I have a guess for what you’re going to say, but I want to hear what you say first.Jenna BlumI don’t know if there was a hard thing about writing this book.KJ Dell’AntoniaI was going to say; maybe it was giving yourself permission to do it in the first place.Jenna BlumOh, interesting. No. I mean, that’s more about marketing, in some ways. I had to get permission. I didn’t want my agent to be like, no, this sucks. I mean, she would try to sell it no matter what, but I really...KJ Dell’AntoniaOh, you’re such a disappointment.Jenna BlumRight? If we must write it. Nash, my editor as well—I’ve been with my agent for 24 years, and I had been with my editor for, like, almost 10 years now, which is pretty amazing.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, that’s the dream.Jenna BlumSo glad to have one on one shoulder and one on the other shoulder. So I didn’t want them to both be like, oh gosh, she’s writing a thriller, everybody writing a thriller. What was the hard thing about writing this book? I think the fact that I’m no longer writing it, honestly. It’s one of those, like, tough act to follow books. You know, I think about other ideas and I’m like, but they’re not darlings, though. So, like, I really had so much fun with this book that when I was done, I was really bummed. I will say that there is a paragraph toward the end of the book that is, for me, the heart and the soul of the entire book. And I’m always curious about other writers, whether they have these paragraphs that are really the sort of nut graph of the whole piece, to use a journalistic term—like, the whole, the heart of it. And I cannot read that paragraph without crying. And I revised this book eleventy-two times, and I could never get through it without weeping. I read the whole thing aloud when I was in the copy edit stage, and I was like, you know. So, I mean, is that hard? I don’t know if that’s hard, but it was like a part that stabbed me, I think. And then the rest of it is just, like, a pure freaking joy. And I really hope people feel the same way, because, I mean, it’s just—why not bring joy?KJ Dell’AntoniaWhy not bring joy? That is the thing that has stuck with me most about stuff I’ve read most recently about writing. And unfortunately, I’ve already forgotten where I saw it, but someone was saying, if you’re read, why should people read your book? What are you—what are you giving them? They were like, if, if your whole point is, but I worked so hard, that is not how this works. But yeah, like, great. I mean yay. But also, I mean, what’s in it for me, man? I’m the reader, and what’s in it for me? And joy is the answer that I want. So I think it’s going to be the answer everyone else wants too.Jenna BlumAnd, like deliciousness and fun and hopefully—I mean, I write all of my books at the bottom line, at the common denominator, to help people feel less alone in their experiences. So if people read this book and they’re like, oh my God, I was totally—say I’m walking into this relationship—oh my God, oh my God, that’s me, oh my God. Like, I really hope that people see themselves in her.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, it’s the gift of getting yourself, getting out of your head and also seeing yourself more clearly.Jenna BlumYeah.KJ Dell’AntoniaThat, to me, is the hope with fiction.Jenna BlumYep, totally agree. You get to escape. You get to have an adventure. You get to feel the work through somebody else’s experience. And then you also get to feel like, whatever your weirdo experience—all weirdos—like, you’re not alone in that experience. We are here.KJ Dell’AntoniaI love it. All right. Well, switching gears completely, tell me what you’ve read recently where, again, we’ve talked really hard about this—this book was a leap. It was a great leap for you. You’re playing big. What have you read recently where you could tell that the writer was also playing big, going, going to the outside of their abilities?Jenna BlumYeah, I think—I mean, I know so many talented writers. I think they’re just trying out different keys the same way I am. And my answer really runs along my own track, because there are a lot of writers I know who are writing thriller or true crime disguised as fiction type of stuff, who have been primarily and previously known as quote literary fiction, end quote, and just, like, a term that that I don’t like. But when I say that, I really mean when the attention is paid so much to the language and the characters, and you can be a little more experimental in form, et cetera. But I think really, like Jean Hanff Korelitz, who I mentioned earlier.KJ Dell’AntoniaYep, I loved The Plot and The Sequel. They’re both great.Jenna BlumI love The Plot and The Sequel. I did not have the pleasure of interviewing Jean for The Plot, although somebody on [unintelligible] did. But I did have the pleasure of interviewing her for The Sequel. And I was fascinated by, like, that is a go big thing, because everybody’s like, oh, The Sequel is not as good as the original. So even to write a sequel in the first place is going really big in my work.KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd then to, to have it be what it was. I actually, in some ways, thought it was better. But, I mean, they were both great. I really enjoyed both of them, but The Sequel was just like, “ooohh, oooww,” in the way it just... Anyway. It was, it was very skillful.Jenna BlumI loved that it was really ingenious. And I loved talking to her about thrillers. I was like, how do you do this when you have a plot and you need to figure out, you know, at the end, how do you surprise the reader? And she said, it’s like going down a long hallway filled with doors, and you keep opening a door and closing the door. You know, that’s not the answer to the plot problem. That’s not the answer. That’s not the answer. That’s not the answer. And at the end, you have only one door left, and that is your thriller solution. Like, that’s the twist ending. And I was like, people plan that? I mean, I have to plan everything. I plan going to the market, you know. I’m like that person. And, you know, she didn’t. She doesn’t plan it. And I thought that was [unintelligible].KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, I too am a planner. And that boggles my mind. I don’t mind if the plan then changes, but without—I could not. I cannot operate without the plan.Jenna BlumI can’t write without the plan, even if I’m not writing a thriller. So to write a thriller that is still satisfying and not have that delicate calibration of, yes, this is the surprise that I’m going to plant in chapter 39—that’s astonishing. So she is one. And my friend Chris Castellani, who has the book coming out February 17—I want to say its called Last Seen. And Chris is a beautiful literary writer. He had a book called A Kiss from Maddalena that grew into a series of three books. His last book was called Leading Men, and he got a review in The New York Times that said his prose was—I memorized this, not because I’m jealous, don’t worry—was opaline, and likened him to F. Scott Fitzgerald. And I remember calling out that review, and I was like, sir, you should get that as a tramp stamp. I certainly would. And so he has this reputation as this fine, fine literary writer, and he decided to go into true crime slash thriller territory alongside me. And I’m so glad our books are out at almost the same time so we can kind of keep each other company in this venture. So Chris’s book, Last Seen, is about the victims of the smiley face killer, and they are all of these young men who are killed by the smiley face killer, narrating from within the frozen rivers in which they are trapped, dead. So they’re, like, sort of narrating from beyond.KJ Dell’AntoniaWell, that’s still experimental. He did not fully leave his form.Jenna BlumHe didn’t, and it’s...KJ Dell’AntoniaHe’s taking his form with him.Jenna BlumYeah, he is, in a way that I don’t know if I have or not. And I would leave that for greater minds to determine. I mean, I hope that what I’m writing is still smart. And again, there’s the big vocabulary, but, but there does seem to be more of a jump in some ways. But Chris—it is a little sort of Virgin Suicides, I guess, but from the point of view of all of these lost boys. But you also get what their family members are saying, or the people who love them, the last time they saw them. And it’s this beautiful, sort of kaleidoscopic endeavor that also provides satisfying answers as to who did this. So he’s taking his craft and applying it to almost a whodunit in a way. And I think it’s really ingenious and really fascinating to watch this track change from the outside, where I feel like it’s almost like T. S. Eliot is writing a thriller—like that’s kind of how it reads—except with more sex and death. And Chris and I are going to speak together at Politics and Prose on March 5, I want to say, and we...KJ Dell’AntoniaNow I can put that in the show notes, because this will be out. If anybody’s in the DC area, you could hit Politics and Prose.Jenna BlumYeah, come on down.KJ Dell’AntoniaThat would be amazing.Jenna BlumWe are calling our panel the sex and death panel, or the sex and death conversation, because both our books are so sexy and so deathly. And then my friend Alex George, who I love, said, well, you should invite an accountant to be on your panel, and then it could be sex, death, and tax.KJ Dell’AntoniaYes.Jenna BlumWhich we’re not going to do, but...KJ Dell’AntoniaOh well.Jenna BlumBut that’s funny.KJ Dell’AntoniaOh well, they’ll, they’ll charge sales tax or something. It’ll—they’re still taxes. Taxes will always be with us.Jenna BlumRight. Exactly. Sex, death, and taxes. So come on out for sex, death, and taxes. And the book Last Seen. And it’s just—it’s really haunting. It’s a very haunting book.KJ Dell’AntoniaI love this. Well, I know that what’s next for you is a pretty big tour for this, which I will put all the links to in the show notes, not to raise the bar. But are you? Are you already working at—this is sort of, this is actually more like a craft question. Are you already working on something new? Are you noodling something new? How do you manage this process part of your writing?Jenna BlumI’m noodling something new. For all of the ventures into new territory, I haven’t been able to change my spots yet in terms of process, which, for somebody writing thrillers, is not great, because you can, you know, hopefully turn them out faster than fiction. To me, the historical fiction requires so much research that took me much longer to write. But I do have those ideas lined up. I think what I like to do with ideas is I kind of roll them around in my head like marbles to see if they are going to stick around, or if they’re going to roll down a hole and disappear somewhere, like a little rabbit hole. And then you know that they don’t have stick-to-itiveness. All three of the ideas that I’m thinking about are still there. The thing for me is I’m a very single-task person, and when I’m promoting, I’m really promoting. Like, my tour—amazingly bananas. Like, I am going to be in a different place every single day connecting with readers, like Sam in Murder Your Darlings, the heroine. I write to connect with readers. I don’t write for the joy of the writing, although I love this book and enjoyed writing it so much. Like, I write because I want it to meet you guys and be out there, like talking about my book, talking about other books. So when I’m on tour, I don’t actually write. And I was saying this to my friend the other day, Dawn Tripp, who’s also an amazing writer, who wrote Jackie, and has been on tour. She did something like 162—I’m making it up—but she...KJ Dell’AntoniaI actually saw her at... outside Boston, the Newburyport Book Festival. Oh, I know, which is amazing, which I also will be at. Yeah. That’s a great festival.Jenna BlumYeah, it’s so good. And I’m going to be in conversation with my editor, so if you have any...KJ Dell’AntoniaOh, there? At the Newburyport festival? I’m sure—I usually go. So that sounds great.Jenna BlumPlease come, please come. Because that’ll be really fun, because she can spill the tea on, on, like, how disorganized I might actually be. But Dawn—I was saying—she’s like, oh, I’m home now. I’m so happy I can write. I was like; I can’t imagine how you would have written on that tour. And she said, oh, no, I write every day, because if I don’t, I don’t feel great, you know, I don’t feel great in my own skin. And I was like, that’s just nuts, man. Like, I’m going—I’m done with this book. I’m going to Nordstrom Rack. I’m going to go shopping. I’m not touching another book for five years. But I do, I’m kind of looking forward to being back this summer. I have a couple of months that I think are slower, and I want to develop those ideas. So let’s see if I can, you know...KJ Dell’AntoniaLet him audition a little more loudly.Jenna BlumYeah, I love that audition. That’s so great. I’m going to steal that, but I’ll credit you.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, yeah. It’s all yours. All right. This was so great. Thank you so much. This was a super fun conversation, and I’m going to enjoy creating the intro and writing up the show notes for it. And, gosh, I hope everybody goes out and buys this too. It is a wholly enjoyable experience, a great way to cleanse your palate from your January, your December, whatever, whatever that may have been. And now in January, you know, come Murder Your Darlings with Jenna. You’ll—you won’t be sorry.Jenna BlumThank you so much. Thank you for having me. This is a sheer, pure delight. Thank you.KJ Dell’AntoniaThank you. Okay, writers, until next week, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

It’s the December Booklab, and while our booklabs are normally only for subscribers, we’ve made this one free as a little present to you—something to listen to while all the other pods are having a well deserved break.How this works: we’ve chosen two among the brave souls who have submitted their first pages (i.e. first 350 words) to us. As always, we read the page aloud, with no other information other than genre and (sometimes) title. We talk about what we read, how it was received, what we think we do and don’t know about the book and what we should know. We offer constructive comments to these writers, and to all writers, on how to make that first page work as hard for you as it can.And then we answer the question: would we turn the page?Kids, those first pages have to WORK. People download a book, or grab an audio sample, often without the benefit of your flap copy or the beautiful cover, and you need to sell them on sticking around from that first minute. The two entries for this episode:* The Burning Truth is a commercial thriller centered on a woman whose sister’s death is reopened when a teenage true-crime podcaster starts investigating a case that hits dangerously close to home.* Camil and Bloom is contemporary literary fiction about a middle-aged woman at a bar grappling with being ghosted, using sharp observational detail to explore loneliness, aging, and stalled lives.Our takeaway is that a first page must work with extreme efficiency: it needs to establish character, stakes, and story direction all at once. Vivid details and strong writing aren’t enough on their own; those details have to be focused and clearly tied to the protagonist’s emotional core so readers understand whose story this is and why it matters. A compelling hook helps, but clarity of perspective and purpose is what ultimately makes a reader turn the page.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe