#AmWriting

Jennie Nash hosts a Write Big session of the #amwriting podcast introducing an “arena” metaphor for writers, inspired by Brené Brown’s Daring Greatly (and Teddy Roosevelt’s “man in the arena” quote), Priya Parker’s The Art of Gathering, and Taylor Swift’s Eras Tour. Jennie argues that writers, like performers, intentionally gather an audience and should be clear about who they want in the “seats,” what experience they want readers to have, and what energy and feedback they want in return. Using Swift’s deliberate creation of emotionally meaningful, immersive moments and audience delight, Nash urges writers to stop playing safe, claim full creative power, and step into the spotlight with purpose. She emphasizes that internal satisfaction comes from making what matters first, and that external rewards follow from writing big, not the other way around.Books* Daring Greatly by Brené Brown* The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.TranscriptHi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. This is a Write Big session, where I’m bringing you short episodes about the mindset shifts that help you stop playing small and write like it matters.Today I’m talking about a concept that I haven’t spoken much about before, and it’s a big one for me, and it might take a bit of explaining. The concept is a metaphor, and it has to do with an arena, with being a writer in an arena. And if the image that just came to your mind involves gladiators and bloody battles, that’s not what I’m talking about.What I’m talking about is Taylor Swift. So think of someone who gathers the people to them, who owns the spotlight and captivates the heart and soul of their fans with [00:01:00] intentional content that they make, and who’s so fearless about their work that they’re not gonna let anyone or anything stop them from doing it.Writing doesn’t happen on big stages or in big stadiums obviously, but we’re gonna borrow this image because it’s the vibe I want writers to cultivate, and it’s the heart of writing big. My arena metaphor has a lot of origins. The most obvious one is the quote at the beginning of Brené Brown’s book Daring Greatly, where she’s referencing the Teddy Roosevelt quote about the man in the arena.That Roosevelt quote had to do with politics and not standing on the side and criticizing others, but stepping into the fray and being part of the mix. And what Brené Brown said was this: “If you are not in the arena getting your ass kicked on occasion, I am not interested in or open to your feedback.There are a million cheap seats in the world today filled with people who will never be brave with their own lives, [00:02:00] but will spend every ounce of energy they have hurling advice and judgment at those of us trying to dare greatly. Their only contributions are criticism, cynicism, and fear-mongering. If you’re criticizing from a place where you’re not also putting yourself on the line, I’m not interested in your feedback.”These are obviously powerful words, especially coming from a woman, because I think it’s true that women who dare greatly get more criticism than men who do. So that’s one of the influences for this metaphor. But another is the book The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker. If you haven’t read this book, I highly recommend it.It’s about this whole idea of gathering people, and she’s talking about physically gathering them in meeting rooms and at weddings and at Thanksgiving and things like that. And her main point is that you have to be intentional about the purpose of your gathering. If you don’t know why you’re bringing people together and what experience you want them to have- They’re [00:03:00] not gonna have an experience that’s memorable or transformative.And when I read that book, I thought, “This is true for writers, too.” This is what my blueprint books are all about, being intentional about what you’re doing with your writing, no matter what you’re writing. You have to know why you want people to gather around your words and ideas. You have to know what you’re bringing them together for.And as I began to think about Brené Brown’s Daring Greatly and Priya Parker’s idea of gathering, I began to think about this idea that writers are gathering people, too, and I began to think about an arena. What if you could picture your readers in an arena? And these thoughts were all going down in my mind around the time of Taylor Swift’s Eras Tour.We were seeing these images of 50,000, 60,000 people in these stadiums just packed in with no seat empty, and the lights are low, and they’re holding up their phones. And it [00:04:00] was obviously so moving for all the people in that audience who showed up there and experienced that and took the time and effort and energy to be there in that room or in that space.So Taylor Swift became the other thread of this idea that writers, too, are gathering people, and so you have to think about who you want to be in those seats of your arena. Who do you want to play to? Who do you want to speak to? Who do you want to create this experience for, and what do you want for them?But also, what do you want from them? I didn’t go to one of the Eras Tour concerts, but I watched the six-part documentary about it and the last concert that she filmed as part of that whole endeavor, and there was such a through line about intention to what she was doing on that tour. She talks all the time about creating emotionally meaningful and immersive experiences for her audience, so she’s not just [00:05:00] entertaining them.She wants them to feel something, and she’s so deliberate about that. Her whole thing about secrets and surprises feeds into that, and I loved these parts of the documentary where, where she shows the behind-the-scenes work with the different guests that she would bring onto the show and how they tried to craft some sort of surprise for the audience and tried to keep it a secret, and there was just so much delight in the way that they were approaching this.Taylor Swift would always say things like, “People are gonna lose their minds.” That seems to be a catchphrase of hers, and it’s what she wants. She’s like, “They’re gonna lose their minds, and it’s gonna be so great.” And this joy in creating the experience for those people who have come and this dedication that...I think she did 149 shows on the Eras Tour, that every single one of them was going to be impactful to the people who came. Not just like, we’re [00:06:00] gonna get out there and do a good show and give it our all and put our energy out there, but I wanna blow their minds. I want to make these moments of delight, and that intention is clearly what feeds Taylor Swift.She talks about that very specifically, that she loves the energy and feedback that she gets from that audience. So in the arena, you’re performing or creating for the people you’ve gathered there, but you’re also getting something back from them. You’re getting this communication or this energy that reflects back to you or comes back to you, and that’s obviously why performers do what they do.You would not get up on a stage 149 times in front of 60,000 people and put yourself out in that way if you didn’t love that. And I think writers need to think about this, too. What are we putting out there for our fans or our readers? What do we want to get from them, and what do we want them to get from us, [00:07:00] and what is that energy exchange like?So I want you to think about the arena of your writing life. It’s a place where you’re gonna show up with your whole self with intention, and you’re gonna do the best work that you’re capable of. It’s where you’re gonna stop playing it safe and claim your full creative power. When someone writes with that kind of authority, they feel the satisfaction deep in their bones, the sweet reward in and of itself.It has actually nothing to do with the external rewards of the marketplace. It has to do with what you wanted to make and the fact that you went out there and made it and you called people, you gathered the people around to be part of it with you. And the paradox of this whole thing is that when you decide to step into the arena and play big, it comes across in the writing, and that leads to the exact external rewards that most writers crave.It doesn’t work the [00:08:00] other way around. You can’t go after those external things and feel the internal satisfaction. You have to do the work that’s gonna feed that internal desire that you have and that thing that you want to make and that you want to create for yourself in order to get the things that you want from your writing.So this metaphor of creating the arena for your writing life and stepping into it in your fullest power and learning how to be the person in the spotlight is something that I want you to really think about. All of the 14 questions in my blueprint for a book process are really about this. Why are you writing a book is really why do you want to gather people to you?Why do you want to be heard and seen? And who are you writing for is who do you want to invite into that arena and put in those seats and play for? Your arena is going to be different from every other writer’s arena on the planet because [00:09:00] no one is going to answer these questions the way that you are.Nobody’s going to write what you are. So take this idea of daring greatly and being brave with your own life and putting yourself out there and marry it with this idea of gathering people around you with intention and designing the experience that you want them to have. And no matter what you think of Taylor Swift as a musician or a performer or a human, take from her this incredible delight in showing up and delivering something meaningful to your fans.And those things together are going to transform your writing life. There’s going to be no way that you can’t write big. And if you do that, there’s going to be no way that you can’t derive deep satisfaction from doing this work. Until next time, stop playing small and write like it matters.[00:10:00]The hashtag amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. 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Andrew returns with his latest blueprint for a gothic mystery, and the coaching quickly zeroes in on what will make it work: a clear, compelling villain and twists that truly land. With help from thriller coach and Thrillerfest executive director Samantha Skal, the discussion unpacks the hidden layer of the story—what the villain is actually doing—and how that contrasts with the protagonist’s assumptions.As they dig in, it becomes clear that strengthening the mystery means making the murders more personal, introducing a convincing false suspect, and mapping both the visible story and the truth underneath it. By the end, Andrew has a sharper path forward: deepen the villain’s motive, raise the stakes earlier, and build each twist so it feels both surprising and inevitable.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.About Book Coach Sam SkalA fan of the scary, mysterious, and suspenseful, Samantha Skal is the Executive Director of ThrillerFest, the co-founder of Shadows & Secrets writing retreats, and an Author Accelerator-certified book coach who specializes in coaching mystery, thriller, horror, and suspense authors. Sam writes stories that keep her up at night, is a breast cancer survivor, and lives in the beautiful Pacific Northwest. Learn more at www.samanthaskal.com and www.shadowsandsecrets.com. Catch Up on Andrew’s Hot Seat Coaching JourneyTranscriptHi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most.This is a hot seat coaching episode where we work through a real challenge in real time.And today we’re back talking with Andrew Perella, the hashtag am writing podcast producer who has stepped out from behind the mic to work on a novel. And where we left Andrew last time was you’d worked through the whole blueprint and you were tasked with completing. Inside outline. So before we get into our guest and, um, what we’re gonna do today, how was that, what was it like for you?Um, I mean, it was, it was, uh, really hard. Uh, but it was, it was, uh, it was really gratifying and it was, it was a lot of fun to do as well. Um. Because I think, um, part of, part of the assignment, you, you, you left for me, [00:01:00] Jenny, was to also beef out certain elements of certain, certain, the presence of certain characters, um, and certain and certain elements of the book.And so I was trying to do that as well as. As, as crafting the outline. Um, and so yeah, it was, it was a long, it was a struggle. It was a struggle, especially to get it to three, to keep it to three, to get it down to three pages. I know, and I’m very strict about that for reasons you are. Um, and. Did you feel a sense of accomplishment when you did it though?Like, oh, this is a book and I’m writing it, or how did that land? Yeah, I mean, like at first I just started writing. I started writing the scene bullets and the, and the points, and just started like, okay, what are all the, what are all the elements that that. I have in my head that I need to get down onto paper and it was like 6, 7, 8 pages.And I was like, okay, now I gotta get this down to three pages. Um, and, and, and I was like, okay, I can combine these two scenes or maybe I don’t need this. So I just ended up cutting a lot and cutting a lot [00:02:00] and getting it down. So like, yes, there was a sense of like. Completion. Um, that was certainly gratifying, uh, to get that.And, uh, I had a couple of late nights, um, getting that, getting that squared away, but yeah, it also feels, feels more real now. Um, and it’s like, yeah, there’s, there’s, there’s a, there’s a there here, which I’m pretty excited about. I’m excited about too, and I’m also excited because we’re doing something really cool today.Um, and we have with us Samantha Skull, who I will introduce in a hot second. But hi Samantha. Hi. Thanks so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here. Well, I’m excited too because, um. Sam, as I call her, um, I’ve known for quite some time. She’s one of the OG author, accelerator certified coaches. And Sam, you actually don’t know this, but I use you.Probably every day.Oh my God, I’m so flattered as an example of [00:03:00] what a great book coach should do, which is to focus and choose who you’re gonna serve and how you’re gonna serve them, and to really go deep into what you love and what you wanna do all day. Right? The read books all day and get paid for it thing like do what you love and you.Do that. You’ve done that just so powerfully and it’s so visible on your website, which we’ll link to in the show notes so folks can go see, but. Sam loves all the dark and suspenseful and scary mystery, twisty things, which always just cracked me up because I don’t, and that’s what’s so beautiful about book coaching and writing for that matters.Everybody has their own thing and, and that’s part of the work of writing Big is. What is your thing? You know? So the reason that I wanted Sam to come is she’s built a whole business on this type of work and with, um, another author, [00:04:00] accelerator coach, she runs a really cool, uh, writing retreat that is, um, it’s always in Salem.Right. It is in a haunted hotel, which, um, Carrie Savage, who is my co-founder in shadows and secrets, uh, loves being haunted. I do not choose to be haunted, so I choose the non haunted floor. So they have that retreat and they, um, have just started taking it virtual and just all kinds of tools and resources and things for people writing this kind of work.And in addition to that, I. I just am always impressed by your trajectory of having gone from. A volunteer at the Thriller Fest. Well, for a participant at the Thriller Fest conference to being a volunteer, to running the Pitch Fest piece of the thing. And now you’re, well then you were co-director, now you’re running the whole thing.You’re, you’re, yes, I am. You’re running the entire [00:05:00] Thriller Fest conference, which is how many writers every year. Oh, we have around a thousand and I have a team behind me. Just to be clear. This would not happen without a village, but uh, yes, we have around a thousand thriller authors who come to New York and we, uh, we talk about the dark stuff all week.It’s absolutely the, the best time. And it’s in two weeks. I can’t, I mean, when this comes out, it may have already passed, but yeah, can’t wait. No, this is coming out right before, so if anybody wants a quick getaway to New York, they should go. But also just the programming, watch the programming coming out of it and we’re so excited.Yeah, it’s really good. So, um, I just, I love the career you’ve built for yourself. It’s always just really inspiring to me. And, um, also a recent breast cancer survivor, so we’re, uh, always wanna shout out to that. Yes. Get your scans. That’s my PSA. Always love it. Same. Love it. Love it. So I wanted Sam to come look at Andrew’s inside [00:06:00] outline because I knew that the thing he has to work on is this, what I call in my not totally expertise in this area.I call the twisties of it. That there’s a, you know, it’s a mystery. It’s a murder, it’s a gothic, it’s horror. It’s all the things. And it, those twists have to land. And this is so much Sam’s expertise that the whole time I was talking to Andrew about it and guiding him and coaching him, I just kept thinking, we need Sam in here.So, so we got Sam in here. And so, um, Andrew completed his inside outline and Sam very graciously, um, agreed to look through it and to look through his whole blueprint. So before we get into what you saw and what you found, Sam. I just love to hear, I mean, this is so self-serving. I just like nothing more than reading a blueprint.I think it’s so fun. Um, just to like, [00:07:00] kind of peel back the, the cover and see what’s in there. Did, did you have fun with that? Oh my gosh. So much fun. Andrew. This story is, is so cool. And I love the historical elements and the rethinking of, you know, vampires are running around London and everyone’s just like, that’s fine.You know, and then how does, how does this all go down? And we have this very agency filled, moxie filled main character who’s just a delight and yeah, I loved it. I have, I have so many fun questions to ask you. So Andrew, how does that feel? I mean, it feels great and I, I was reading through, uh, through both of your notes, um, in the, in the, in the outline and like you’re asking all of these questions.Um. Some of them that I have not thought of before and like, so I’m, so I’m really excited to kind of dig into these and talk through them. But I’m, I’m, it’s really gratifying to hear that this, that this idea is, is, is, is an interesting one. Yeah. I loved it. I a hundred [00:08:00] percent read this book. I’d, I’d see it and be like, yes, I want, I want to be in that world.Cool. Well that’s why you’re here. Because I would be like, no, too scary. Too scary for me. So, um, I’m gonna let. Sam sort of take it away and, uh, we could talk for days, I’m sure about this, but one of the, the things I love about book coaches who are well trained is they’ll hone in on the most important, the most important things.So. What do you think, Sam? What’s the most important thing Andrew should be thinking about in his next iteration of this outline? Yeah, so my favorite thing to talk about outta the gate with Mr. Thriller and suspense and gothic horror, depending on how dark you wanna make this, um, is who is the person who’s really behind all these murders and why are they committing them?Right? I like to think of MTS mystery full or suspense as the villain’s journey as experienced by the [00:09:00] protagonist. Mm-hmm. Right. So we, we must know what’s going on beneath the surface in order for those twists to land, because twists are just assumptions about what’s going on that the protagonist makes.And when the truth, you know, what’s really going on with the villain is revealed, it’s twisty because it’s unexpected. Mm-hmm. So if we don’t, therefore if we don’t know who’s. Who’s behind, who’s doing all these villainous things. Um, we struggle to make those twists land and we struggle to get a blueprint that we can actually follow.So tell me your thoughts on who this mastermind murderer is and why they’re doing what they’re doing. Um, so. So Jack Seward is the, is the, is the Mastermind behind this. And I’ve been, I’ve been thinking a lot about it this week since I, since I finished the, since I finished the outline. And a lot of other things have occurred to me about who this gentleman is and how he’s doing what he’s doing.But I think the why is, um, he is committed to the status quo. He is committed [00:10:00] to, uh, uh, uh, uh, a, you know, uh. He is committed to the manosphere. He is committed to the patriarchy. He has committed to, um, the previous way of doing things. Um. In, in, in society, in politics, in medicine. And so like he’s seeing this sea change, um, in all of those areas.Um, with the advent of this, of this, um, medical school for women, uh, with the, with this vote, um, vote, uh, that is happening. Um, and he disapproves and so his goal is to disrupt all of those, um. Disruptions di uh, by pitting them against each other. Got it. So if he can, if he can. Create this illusion that vampires are preying on Suffr jets.They will be too busy fighting each other to try and find any sort of, uh, agency for [00:11:00] themselves. Aha. Very, very well thought out. I love that. As a, as a mastermind villain goal. So here’s the other thing, is that mm-hmm. In the genre expectation for any sort of modern mystery, full or suspense, is that we have three twists.We have one at the mid and we can have more. Right. But we have one at the midpoint, which is just the midpoint turn. Like it’s, it’s a classic story thing, which you already have. You have a great midpoint currently. Mm-hmm. Um, and the climactic twist is the reveal of, uh, as, as Carrie, my co-founder and shadows and secrets likes to say, um, the climactic.Confrontation answers the story question, which is presented in the inciting incident and typically in mysteries, the inciting incident is who’s doing the killing? Right? Like, who’s behind this dead body that we have early on? And we’ll talk about that in just a second. Um, so the climactic answers that question, and then we have a final twist, which is typically the reveal of this gentleman who wants to keep things as is.And he [00:12:00] meanwhile. During the course of the story is going to be taking action to stop, uh, our plucky protagonist from stopping him, right? Mm-hmm. So he’s a full antagonist to our protagonist. And in that way we need a fake villain, right? We need someone that he can have set up so that she thinks this is the person behind everything in the climactic scene.And then she gets to the end and is like, oh my gosh, I’ve. You know, I’ve conquered, I’ve brought chaos to order, I’ve solved this thing, and now, oh my God, now there’s somebody else who’s actually behind everything. And actually we’re still in grave danger and we didn’t even know to be worried about this.And that’s how you get that like, you know, 85 to 98% just ripping through the pages readers, you know, being so hooked to figure out what happened. Right. Um, so. Tell me a little bit more about who Seward could have set up or manipulated or something [00:13:00] else to commit these murders so that he gets done what he wants to get done, but he also protects himself.And if you don’t know the answer, that’s okay. We can brainstorm. But if you do, then that’s great. So this is, this is kind of part of the, the, the thought, the idea that I’ve had since I, since I finished the, the, the, uh, the outline is. Because the, the syringe idea mm-hmm. The double-headed syringe idea always felt a little tenuous.Uh, like I, I wasn’t quite sure that that was gonna hold, but, so my new thought about this is, is. Because he is, uh, he is the, uh, director of a mental institution. Um, and so, and so, like, that’s a whole other politic where he has people who are, uh, who are in his thra essentially. And so is there a way that he can coerce, um, a vampire who needs him to commit these murders on his behalf, thereby kind of insulating himself from the actions.Perfect. And [00:14:00] so I think that could, so the climactic twist would then be. It’s a vampire I disco discovering that the, the, this is the vampires committing the murders. But then the, the, the final twist is, oh s**t, he’s been doing this at the behest of, of Seward, who’s her, you know, kind of Yes, yes. As it were in quotation.Okay. Yes. That sounds amazing. And it also, you know, when we step into this story, um, in your initial scene, we have. Vampires feeding on people and Abby’s just like, uh, okay, that’s, that’s normal. Right? And so is that, did I read that right? Is that the world that we’re in? Is that We have vampires existing and Van Helsing, you know, was the one who kept them in check.And we have all that like lore that we’re dealing with that the reader brings in. So tell me more about the world I’m walking into here. So, yeah, I think I’m still developing this world. So we’re 20 years. Around 20 years after the events of Dracula. Okay. The, the, the novel. And so, and I think, I think people are now aware that [00:15:00] vampires exist.And I think, you know, at this, at the same time, they’re being used as like this bogey man or, or, or straw man of like, everything that is wrong with, with British society. Um, but they’re also. Not the monsters, right? They’re, they’re just another, another, um, community that is trying to, uh, eke out, eke out some sort of existence.Um, I love that so much. It’s just such a fun, sort of new twist on. Know a story that’s so well known and has been in our collective conscience for a hundred years. You know, I don’t know when, when Dracula came out. Correct me if I’m wrong, but a long time, right? A little over a hundred years. Yeah. It’s been a minute.It’s been a minute. Um, and so I, so it’s still very much a period of transition as, as you know, London and the world are still trying to figure out what that means, that these things actually exist and live among us. Um, and, uh, and so. There were [00:16:00] some things that didn’t make it into the outline like I had.There was this one scene where they’re walking down the street and there’s someone on the soapbox at speaker’s Corner at Hyde Park who’s railing against, who’s railing against, uh, um, vampires as like a sturge on society and things of that nature. And, and there’ll be things in the newspaper. I think that kind of addressed this new, this new politic, um, that, that the characters interact with.And so I’m still feeling out what exactly it means. That vampires exist and are part of the public consciousness. Yeah. So one sort of logical question that comes up for me there is, you know, if we’re in society and there’s just like monsters living among us who occasionally pick people off on the street, that would create a level of, um, extreme tension.Okay. Right. One might say, right, like, yeah, if I’m wandering down the street and I see a vampire eating somebody that’s not just like a, you know, we would be taking steps to protect ourselves because humans are always going to protect themselves, and so yes. You [00:17:00] know what, if you change it where the vampires are only allowed to feed on like livestock or something.Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, something that’s like the, nobody’s happy, right? Yeah. Like, like most, uh, um, situations where we, we agree on something and we’re, we’re all giving something up. Yeah. But that allows them to exist in society and live among us. Right? Like the, the veil has been lifted. Vampires are here.But they’ve agreed to only eat livestock, and then the fact that they’re murdering people by eating them then becomes. A huge deal. Right? Because this Deante that we’ve had with them is now broken. Mm-hmm. Um, something like that, because I think if we, if we have it just being casual that they’re, they’re eating people in alleys or whatever, it reduces, I mean, that’s a fun story, don’t get me wrong.Yeah, yeah. But that reduces the impact of the murders that we are seeking to solve with this and Right. You know, you said this was, this was a mystery. And so currently [00:18:00] we don’t have a ton of mystery on the page like we have. The midpoint is where, um, she discovers that things might not be what they seem, which I love.But in order for that to have impact, we need something earlier. And that could be, you know, these murders have been happening for a few days. That could be the last year. It could be she sees the first murder. Um. Something along those lines, but we need something early. So we, we understand the tension and we understand the mystery story question because you have a ton of other story questions in here, but if this is mystery first, the mystery story question needs to be who committed, who is committing these murders and why?Yep. Yeah. Does that kind of, that makes sense? Land? Yes. No, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. Now as a, as as I was, I was rereading the outline, the other, the other, the, the other night. And I was like, I feel, I feel like there needs to be another murder scene. Yeah. Earlier we gotta up the body count in the, the book.Yeah. You know, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a conversation I have every day. [00:19:00] Yeah. Not, not enough dead bodies. Not enough dead. Not enough dead bodies. Yeah. So, you know, and so if she is, if she’s really worried about, you know, that’s their question is why, why is she so involved in solving these murders? How do we make it personal to her?Mm-hmm. And so could this be a friend? Could this be. You know, um, a sister, could this be an aunt, like some something that’s related to her so that this person is taken out. And then that becomes Seward has targeted her because she’s the, she’s, you know, van sing’s niece, right? Yep. Yeah. So she’s a public figure that if he takes out by having a vampire.Quote, you know, kill her. Then he will have achieved his goal of disrupting this whole thing and be like, look how dangerous it’s for women to be out in the world and you know. Mm-hmm. We should put a stop to this. Like that achieves his goal, but she won’t know. Right. Obviously that [00:20:00] that’s his goal. Right.But he also needs to create the unrest, so it’s not just, you know, she’s the one who’s murdered. That’s going to be the climactic plan and he will have killed other people in the meantime. Right. Okay. Something like that. Like we need to make, yeah. Whatever it is that needs to be personal to her. And if she paint, if she paints a target on her back later on by being a ksky, amateur sleuth, which is classic.Um. That works well as well. But I like, you know, one of the questions I love to ask is, what was your villain doing on the day that their prote, the pro protagonist, decided to ruin their life by deciding to go after and stop them from villain. And so maybe she had nothing to do with any of this and she’s researching and becomes a problem.That’s the other way you could play it. Mm-hmm. Um. But, you know, if he has this grand plan and he’s like, Ooh, Abby would make a great sort of like, figurehead to the end of all these murders, and that’s the one that I’m gonna point at it and be like, [00:21:00] look, we can’t, you know, I, we can’t have these women out here.Right? Something like that could work well. Um, what do you think? What, what’s, what’s your brain do when I say all those things? Um, it’s interesting. I hadn’t considered, I hadn’t considered that her uncle would be targeting her. One of the things I’ve been grappling with was like. One of the reasons he targets people around her is to scare her away from med school to scare her away from the cause, okay.Um, and kind of pin her in further to the existing, to the existing, um, um, status quo. Um, and so I hadn’t considered him using her. Sacrificing her for his, uh, for his ultimate goals. Yeah. Um, and that’s an in, that’s an interesting idea. And, and if she were to discover that would certainly up to stakes, um, that would certainly up to stakes for her.It would. And so if you want him to be a little more [00:22:00] empathetic Right. We don’t need to go like full dark if you don’t want to. Right. Um, he could be trying to protect her. By killing other people, which is misguided. Yeah. But, uh, fun. Right? And then that would make sense. So when she figures out it’s actually him, he could be like, I was doing all of this to protect you because I love you.You’re in my family. Right? Yeah. That also works. But we need to have whatever his, his plan is for causing, you know, using these murders to achieve his goal. If she’s, she needs to be the target of it so that it’s very personal to her as she moves through this story. Um, and upping the stakes is always great.It amps the tension, right? Yeah. And again, she’s not gonna know any of this until she gets to that final twist. And so one of like the most fine chilling, you know, tingly things that you can do with mysteries is that reveal at the very end. We as through the protagonist, understand how much danger we were in [00:23:00] this entire story, and we had no idea.Right? And that moment is the one that we’re seeking with readers and for ourselves, right? It’s like, how do we have that moment that reveal have the biggest impact possible? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Something like that. Yeah. I, I see Andrew just grinning, like, what are you, whatcha feeling? He’s just like, got his giant grin on his face.I mean, like, and like I said, I’ve been trying to figure out how, because it, because as I was reading, as I was reading through the outline, it did feel like, like abriana was just kind of like adjacent to mm-hmm. All of the murders. Um, and, and Jenny, you and I had talked about whether there was an active investigation and, and, and Sam, I think you kind of alluded to that in, in the notes, is there, is there an active investigation and like, is she, is, is Abriana being.Is, uh, uh, coroner does a suspect by the, by the investigators. Um, is that, why, is that why she is doing her own investigation? Um, [00:24:00] which is another, which is another way to to, to up the stakes. Mm-hmm. Also, um, I, yeah, I’m, I’m, that’s an interest, that’s an interesting way though to, that’s an interesting take on Seward, who’s, um, an avuncular figure.He’s not, like, he’s not a blood relation. To Abriana, but like he is, he is determined in his goal and like, you know, he would, he probably would stop at nothing to get that done, even if it meant, even if it meant, uh, the daughter of a friend of his got killed. Yeah, I mean, just thinking through, and this is your homework, really, is to think through how dark do you want to make him, right?Because you can have a villain who starts off with. A, uh, a goal and decides to achieve it through very ill-advised means, but still wants to protect the people around them, right? Like they can be both. We don’t have to have it be a hundred percent. [00:25:00] This person is so evil and willing to burn it all down, right?And so, but that can also be a series of bad decisions. It’s like bad decision one leads to, oh my God, like people are finding out that these aren’t really vampires. Now I have to really like double down to make it really seem like vampires, so I don’t get caught. Because guess what, if I get caught, my life is ruined.Right? And you know, as Abby gets closer, he realizes. I have to kill her. Right? Yeah. She’s, she’s gonna ruin everything. Yeah. And that sort of angst and that, you know, that would be very painful for him. That could be the thing that when she confronts him at the end, and there will be a de Ma, right? We’re gonna have something where he’s like, I did all these things for this reason.And it doesn’t have to be Yeah. Pages, but we do have a, that’s a classic mystery thing. Mm-hmm. She’ll understand if you like this, that you know, he was trying to protect her and then. He’ll be like, you did this to yourself. You know, like, right. Yeah. You’re the one who got in the way. Um, something like [00:26:00] that.And he’s like, mm-hmm. My only choice now is to kill you. And then of course she will not allow that because she’s our lucky protagonist and will survive because chaos will be brought to order. That’s the other big thing is we wanna wrap this up unless you’re going who, in which case. It gets worse at the very end.Um, is, is that, is that, is that allowed? Yeah, we, yeah. Well, to keep chaos on the chaos, absolutely. We just need it genre bending is. So hot right now, right? Um, and it’s really fun, right? So you can have both, you can have the main mystery wrapped up, like she can, Abby can figure out, okay, this wasn’t actually vampires and someone is posing as a vampire.And so that actually changes your midpoint, by the way. We’ll talk about that in a second. But if that’s the arc, right? She thinks it’s vampires. She is, when she does the climactic confrontation, she’s like, it’s vampires like someone, you know, what are they doing? Why are they doing this? And then realizes [00:27:00] in that, that it wasn’t vampires and it’s actually someone else.Um, the chaos will be brought to order in that way, right? Like we have, we have a right, we have figured out that someone was posing as a vampire. But what if you have a final, final twist where you know, there actually are vampires. Killing people as well. Like seaward only admits to three of these murders and then there’s someone else doing, you know, and it’s just like we end it with like, oh no.You know? Right. Yeah. Or by, maybe there’s something mystical with like by imitating a vampire or that, you know, the vampires have been gathering their energy for the last 20 years by feeding on goats and you know, they’re ready to, we need a new van Helsing to, to keep them under control or something. And Abby takes up that mantle and, you know.You can, you can totally play it where there’s an unanswered. Okay. Oh no, it’s worse at the end, but we do need some sort of wrap up of the story. Gotcha. But there does seem to be some cover resolution. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I see what you’re saying. That makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. So it strikes [00:28:00] me, I’m not sure that you picked this up, Sam, and you might not have, but that there’s a.Uh, um, Mina the Vampire. Mina, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is is her mother. Right. I did pick up on that, and that’s a question I have. Okay. Yeah. Great. Because it seems like what you’re all talking about that could play a really important role in any of these twists and arcs. Right. I. Yes. Yes. Plus one. Yeah. Everything you just said.Um, yeah. So Mina being her mother, fantastic. One of your final twists, right? And particularly if you have Seward being like the final confrontation, final twist person, and then, you know, you have this lovely final scene where she’s like, oh my God, it’s my mother. Um, yeah. But the logical question there is why would Mina Hyde, what’s she after?Why would she not have tried to help Abby? Right? Because you’re dealing with reader expectations that mothers will do anything to protect their children. Right? And so you can, we can twist that. Maybe she is trying to protect her from what’s coming, right? [00:29:00] Like what’s actually going on. Maybe she’s the one who’s been protecting her the whole time by warding off the vampires that have been attacking her, her friends at medical school.Um. And that’s why there’s so many mistaken identity things, right? Because you have two where, where Abby’s like, whoops. I think that was supposed to be for me. Yeah. Um, and so the reader’s gonna wonder why are they so bad at killing her, right? Like, if these were assassin attempts, like why wouldn’t what, what’s going on?And so that answers that question. If it’s Mina stepping in, but you know, we need to understand what Mina’s really after and why she didn’t step forward sooner. That’s a huge question that, you know, yeah. Everyone will have. Yeah, it is a huge question. Like, like where has she been for the last 18 years?Mm-hmm. Why has Aubrianna not seen her since, since, since her birth? Um, and I haven’t quite nailed that down yet. Like, is there some sort of like vampire code? I don’t like, I don’t know. Is it, is it that she’s, is that she, that Mina. Knows [00:30:00] Jonathan, her husband too well, and knows that, that he would not allow a vampire, uh, to interact with his children.Like. And so I think there, I think there are a couple of answers to that, but I haven’t like, landed on one yet. Um, but I, like, I, I like the idea of Mina working kind of behind the scenes to protect, to actively protect, um. Abriana, which is what that, that opening that, that, that scene in the alley earlier on is about, is like she comes to her aid at that point.Um, and, uh, and, and and physically puts herself between, between Abri and Abriana and the violence, which Abriana misunderstands, uh, and runs away terrified. But I think, I, I think there are ways to incorporate that, as you say. Elsewhere in the, elsewhere in the story. Yeah. Well, I mean she, to make to a fantastic twist would be, she assumes Mina is the one after her, right?Right. Yeah. Like she recalls in this opening scene that Mina was coming at her and is like, Ooh, that’s the vampire that wants to kill me. Yeah, yeah. And [00:31:00] you know, sees her around. And so that’s her assumption. And this is how you create twists, right? Her assumption is that Nina is the person behind all of this, and why, but.You run the risk of when she starts investigating Mina and figuring out who she is? It would be, we’d figure out we need some very good reason that she couldn’t figure out that was that Mina was her mother, right? Yeah. Yes. So in that case, I would suggest having some other vampire be the one that she thinks is behind everything.Um, which leads me to the midpoint. So currently this is where she discovers that these bite marks are not bite marks at all. They are. Other Marks syringes. Right, right. Like the, yeah. Yeah. Um, so if that’s the midpoint, which I like, again, that means that she’s going to assume that there is a human or a vampire who’s lost her teeth.I don’t know, um, behind all of this. And the climactic confrontation will be with that, [00:32:00] with that knowledge that this is not a vampire doing these villainous things. Um. So how does that feel? Like do if, do we, is there someone in the cast that we can sort of have her assume is that person that’s not Seward.Not, not someone that I’ve identified yet. Um, okay. But I, I, I, I agree with you. We need, we need someone that she, that she’s pursuing and, uh, in, at, in, in that sense. Um, and, and she believed, I, I, I see, I see. Now I see what you’re saying. That the, the importance of her making that, that, that incorrect assumption that this is the person who’s, who’s doing, who’s doing the, the killings.And I don’t know who that is yet. I don’t know if there’s someone actively in the, in the cha in the cast that we have, or if I need, if I need a new character. Okay. I mean, you can also play with, you know, so this is the thing about mysteries, it gets very quickly complicated, is on the surface we have all the assumptions which are incorrect.[00:33:00] Right? Right. And so we have to build up that, those plots and make it plausible. Yeah. Because we need, you know, the example I like to give is like, let’s say you, you come home and you’re expecting that no one else is there and there’s an open window and there is a earring back on the counter and a bloody footprint on your.You know, nice white carpet and you know, um, a knocked over plant and then you recall, oh yes, you know the nab I’ve been babysitting the neighbor’s cat, they knocked over the plant. So that’s solved. But this bloody footprint is really freaking me out because clearly somebody came in here and made a bloody footprint and that’s terrifying.You’re focusing on the bloody footprint because that’s the most obvious thing, but the earring back is the thing that is the villain clue. Right, and that, that’s the person that came in and misled you by putting the bloody footprint on the carpet for reasons, capital R, whatever it is in this story, right?But we have clocked on screen, on the page what the clue is and ignored it. And so yeah, [00:34:00] this is how you can go back in on a revision and you know, you maybe we don’t know who this other person is that’s actually doing this, but they will have a vested interest in not being caught. Right? Mm-hmm. And so these little clues that we put on the page later are ignored, and then we’re following the story that we’ve already created.Mm-hmm. Um, but keeping track of all these layers feels complicated, which is why Jenny’s outline with three pages is so, so useful. Um, right. Because what the, what’s on the page is the, is the story that you already, that we’re focusing on, right? Mm-hmm. And then what really happened? Mm-hmm. Is the thing beneath the surface that we don’t learn until the truth is revealed in one of these twists.Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. No, that absolutely makes sense. That Absolutely. That also feels like a lot to think about. It is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I don’t have, I don’t have enough red earrings. I don’t have enough mis, I don’t have enough misdirecting. Misdirecting clues, as it were. Right. Well, those are fun to brainstorm, right?Because we start thinking [00:35:00] about who really, it comes back to Seward. Like what would he be doing to misdirect Abby away from this? Right. To keep her safe, if you like that as a goal. Yeah. And also to make the, make society freak out about how vampires are killing again. Mm-hmm. Um, what would he plant, who would he manipulate?Who would he pay off? You know? Mm-hmm. Maybe there’s a vampire who knows about all of this, and. Is trying to kill the person that Seward is hired to do the syringes because Seward’s not going around and doing this. Abby would’ve seen him or you know mm-hmm. Recognized him or something. So he will have paid someone to, or it has someone in his organization who also believes in the cause.Yeah. And is doing this, and maybe that person’s a vampire. I don’t know. I do love the double syringe. I mean, I hope that stays. Yeah. Yeah. It’s good. It’s good. Is it? Yeah. I heard you say, I heard you kind of dismiss it, Andrew, but it, to me, that would be a perfect misdirection if [00:36:00] somebody finds that and now there’s this whole thread of assumptions about what that means and Yeah, but that it’s not really what it is or it’s not being used the way we think, or so.Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. Sam, you mentioned something because I was, I was getting close to like throwing that overboard. No, it’s good. No. Okay. Okay. I think it is good. So, so, so, so, but that could still be, that could still be used as a, that could still, I could still use it as a red herring potentially, uh, because it could still be a vampire at Seward’s behest committing the murders.But maybe they’re doing it with the syringe or maybe they’re, and or maybe they’re doing it a little bit with their own or Right. Or not. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to Jenny’s point, this could be a total, maybe. Maybe it’s not used for what we think. Maybe the double syringe is something completely unrelated and it’s like the best way to draw out the.I don’t know. I mean, depending on, maybe he is drugging the people in the [00:37:00] asylum, like giving them more drugs than they’re supposed to have. Right, right. And, and he devised, I mean, you know, devised a double syringe to deliver it and doesn’t want anybody to know that that’s what he is doing, you know? Yeah, yeah.Okay. Yeah, yeah. But if you wanna play with the idea that there’s also a vampire involved who believes in Seward’s? Cause then that, you know. That’s very interesting because it’s like, well, why? What do they want? You know? Yeah, yeah. Or even just someone who is, is being coerced by him, who does, doesn’t necessarily Yes.Believe in the cause, but is perhaps is, has perhaps been assigned to his asylum. Mm-hmm. And he’s taking advantage of, I love. Which I think, I think really makes sewer to a, a pretty despicable individual on a number of levels, which I, which I can like, well, I mean, he’s already killing people, so, right. You know, slippery slope.But that’s what, you know, it’s, that’s the, [00:38:00] that’s the thing is that his, his goals. We need to make logical sense when we get to the end and Right. You know, Abby figures out what’s going on, but he, he can also be empathetic. Right? Yeah. Like, why is he so scared of women? Yeah. Being in society, what is, what is that deep fear about?And that’s definitely something to explore as well. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, so we could, like I said, talk for days, for days about these things, but, um, it feels like this is a good place to leave Andrew with a whole bunch of work to do. And I’m just laughing because, um, this is such a perfect example of.Why we do a blueprint, right? There’s so much to work out. There’s so much to think about. There’s so many layers and levels to every story. And, uh, you know, we, we heard you today, Andrew, sort of going, well, I don’t know. I haven’t thought about it. I don’t know. I, I’ll have to see, you know, that’s, that’s the work and being in that.[00:39:00] Discomfort and that not knowing mm-hmm. And the, all the possibilities and making your choices. That’s, that’s a work, right Sam? Like that’s, it is, it’s so fun. But yeah, it’s mysteries are puzzles, right? Yeah. And we wanna guide the reader through the puzzle in a way that gives them maximum impact and maximum joy.For every reveal that we decide to put out there, right? We, we, we don’t want to casually have a reveal. Everything is on purpose. Um, and so I was gonna say on, on the inside outline that you have, um, a parallel one, or, you know, if you make it even tighter just to flow the flow of events, you can have a, what really happened?Um, line which tracks what the villain is actually doing. And I do find that that can be really helpful because it does get overwhelming with figuring out, okay, we have assumptions. Yeah. And those assumptions are, you know, lead to action and this is how we get a repulsive plot. But those assumptions are.Not going to be the [00:40:00] actual thing that is the truth. And so we need to track what the truth is and what our villain is doing to stop our protagonist from stopping them because Yeah, forces of opposition, you know, so just for our listeners to clarify that makes sense. What Sam’s talking about is a parallel inside outline is, is to literally do.An a three page outline for the, the villain? Yes, yes. Or to put a bullet point or a, a subpoint on the protagonists inside. Outline that. Tracks that, um, sometimes people color code that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, but the, that’s why we keep this so tight because if you start making it nine pages or 15 pages and then you layer these things, all of a sudden you have a 30 page outline, and now you’ve just got one of those giant story grid things that I find to be impossible to, to manipulate.Like we still want this to be manipulatable, right. So that you [00:41:00] can. Hold it in your hands and see it and, and then get to a place where you say, I can write that story. I love this story. I can write this story. That’s, so that’s what we’re going for. So, yeah. Um, Sam, could you maybe just summarize, um, Andrew will take some time to work on this next iteration to show me.Can you give him direction on key thing to think about and me direction on the key thing to look for? Yeah, of course. So the biggest thing is figure out what Seward’s really, why he’s really doing what he’s doing and how it relates directly to Abby. Right. What is, what action can he take that is about her, and that’s either protecting her or, you know.Um, killing someone close to her to scare her away, but then why, right? Mm-hmm. So figure out the, figure out what he’s really doing, and then look and see what actions, what other actions would he take about who this other person [00:42:00] is that he’s framing or manipulating, or blackmailing or whatever. And if that’s a vampire, then.You know, why does that work when we, when it’s revealed? Like, what else could be going on? That makes sense. Perhaps the vampires don’t want women and suffragettes to have this power because it threatens the power that they have in society currently, or something like that, or mm-hmm. Whatever it is. But figure out what, what’s really going on.That’s your homework, that’s your big homework. Mm-hmm. And then, you know, for the next iteration. More murder on the page, right? We need the attention to rise and we need to understand why Abby, as she takes her steps based on assumptions, what are those assumptions? Why is she so personally invested in this?Why doesn’t she just give up, right? Because that’s the big logical question that I always ask is for both the antagonist and your protagonist, why don’t they just walk away? Why do they keep doing this when it gets hard, right? Because when someone’s actively trying to [00:43:00] stop you as the protagonist is. For the antagonist, why would the antagonist not just be like, okay, this is too tough, right?Like, I’m, I’m out, uh, this is, my goal isn’t going to be achieved. So why do they both keep going? And the answer is usually we’re in too deep, right? We can’t, the only way out is through, um, which is what the midpoint establishes. Usually. It’s like, well, shoot, you know, I can’t leave this story. I have to keep going.Right? So the three twists, right? We want the assumptions to be present on the inside outline. So we have a midpoint twist. We have an inciting incident that presents the mystery story question, murder usually. Mm-hmm. And then climactic twist, who is this fake villain? And then final villain, Seward. And then final, final twist.Mina is actually involved, right? And has been protecting her the whole time or whatever, right? Yeah. Okay. So on the page, assumptions is second part of that homework, but you have to figure out what really happened in order to have the assumptions, which are Yeah, not [00:44:00] right. Yeah. So drawing, drawing out those two timelines of the, what, what actually happened, timeline, and then the assumptions, timeline and how they, well, the assumptions are gonna be on the page, right?Those will be on your protagonist inside outline, right? Because it, it informs her actions. And so everything you have about her fighting to go to med school and like all these things, all that works. All we’re doing is just tweaking it a little bit so that the mystery is more. Front and center, and she’s taking action based on, okay, I have this clue, what do I do?Now I have this clue. What do I do now? What stands in the way of each time I do this? Oops, I’m wrong about that. So what now? You know? Okay. And in the meantime it’s clear that her personal stakes are rising and she is becoming a target. There’s more attempts on her life and, and you know, then what? Right.Once you have a target on your back, you can’t run. Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah. Make it scarier. That’s your homework. Yeah, I do. I do. I have to put her in [00:45:00] peril. I have to put her in peril. Right? You do. Yeah. Yeah. And the final thing I’ll mention about this is when you actually get to writing the way that you, even if it’s, even if the actions are a little less intense, right?We don’t actually have an assassin coming at her every page because we’d get bored with that. So through interiority, through inner thought, she’s going to think about what she’s scared of throughout the entire book. Mm-hmm. It’s not just gonna be, oh, I assume this thing. It’s like I assume this thing. And also I’m terrified because you know what, if this is about that, and that’s how you create those red herrings too, is because she’s going to make assumptions about what’s happening, and those assumptions will be based in fear.Right. Love it. Right. That makes sense. Love it. That makes sense. Thank you. My God. You’re so welcome. Love this story. Can’t wait to read it. Are you still with us, Andrew? You’re not. You’re not walking away. Right. You’re not like, I’m in too deep now. No. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Just past the midpoint. Yeah, I was gonna say good.Good. No, that’s why, that’s why I’m, that’s why I’m grinning so [00:46:00] much. It’s like, it’s like, ‘cause we’re talking about this as if it’s an actual, real thing. It’s not just, it’s not just an idea that I’ve, I’ve, I’ve had and been, I’ve been telling my wife about this is an actual, this is an actual thing I’m talking with people about.Um, and so this is, this is real. This is. It is real. It’s exciting. Um, we will, uh, see how this unfolds for Andrew and Sam, I just wanna thank you so much for joining us and talking about all this. Um, and I’m gonna tell our listeners that if you want this kind of twisty help, um, that’s Samantha’s website, which is samantha skull.com and that’s SKAL.She has a really cool, um, very inexpensive twist. Course, which you can, um, take. It’s just awesome. And it’s, um, she got some blueprint stuff on there, all kinds of things. And you can learn also about the retreat that she runs with carrieSavage@shadowsandsecrets.com. And you can go to Thriller [00:47:00] Fest and see all of the big work she’s doing for this community of writers out in the world.So Sam, thank you for coming on. Oh, thank you so much for having me. And I just wanna say, Jenny, the reason that I focused, I mean, yes, I love this stuff and I have, I’ve loved it my whole life, but I listened to you. This was your. To focus in on what I love and I did. And it’s just the best I get to wake up every day and talk about murder, which sounds like a terrible hobby, but I love it.So here we are. I know. That’s why I talk about you all the time. Maybe that’s it. ‘cause you listen toI, I, uh, I push people a lot harder now, let’s put it that way. Um. Amazing. That’s, that is my craft. But thank you Andrew, again, for being so willing to be doing this in public. It’s not easy for those listening just to be on the hot seat like this for so long, so often really hard. So, um, you, [00:48:00] huge, huge shout out to Andrew and shout.Um, just for our listeners, thanks for tuning in and let’s get back to work. This is a public episode. 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Anyone who ever listened to Jenna Blum do interviews on the A Mighty Blaze podcast will not be one bit surprised to hear that we had a great time talking all things writing but most specifically writing BIG—which Jenna has absolutely done with her current book, Murder Your Darlings. Murder Your Darlings is a contemporary thriller and a real departure from Jenna’s very popular historical fiction—a departure that’s totally in keeping with Jenna’s own enthusiastic, passionate personality. As her agent said, her earlier work was elegant and restrained (although still powerful) but in this one Jenna lets herself loose. We had a wonderful time talking about it, and I know you’ll have a great time listening. #AmReadingThe Plot and The Sequel, Jean Hanff Korelitz Last Seen, Christopher CastellaniYou, Caroline KepnesJoin Jenna on tour—she’s absolutely a joy to listen to on writing and probably any other topic! Dates HERE. And do grab Murder Your Darlings—who doesn’t love a tell-all thriller set in this ridiculous industry we all love so much?Hey—if you’re reading this in January 2026, it’s not too late to join our Blueprint Sprint and get in on a rapid-fire roadmap to writing the book you want to write this year (instead of writing 100K words in search of it… ask me how I know!) First Blueprint post below—upgrade your subscription to get started. Episode Transcript Below! SPONSORSHIP MESSAGEHey, this is Jennie. Happy New Year! If you’re a subscriber to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, you can join us in our Blueprint Challenge, which is starting on January 12. We’re going to be working on new book ideas, books where we’re stuck, and books that we’re revising, and using the Blueprint framework to help us get unstuck, get clarity, get confidence, and move forward. KJ is leading the charge this time with some write-alongs, some Ask Me Anything sessions, and all kinds of good stuff to help you on your way. I’ll be jumping in as well, and I’ll be cheering you as you get your books into shape and get ready to write forward in 2026. Details are in the show notes, and we’d love to have you join us.EPISODE TRANSCRIPTMultiple SpeakersIs it recording? Now it’s recording—yay. Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. I don’t remember what I’m supposed to be doing. All right, let’s start over. Awkward pause. I’m going to rustle some papers. Okay, now—one, two, three.KJ Dell’AntoniaHey, writers, KJ here. I just interviewed Jenna Blum, and any of you who have listened to her when she does the interviews on the A Mighty Blaze Podcast will not be one bit surprised to hear that we had a great time talking all things writing, but most specifically, writing big, which Jenna has absolutely done with her current book, Murder Your Darlings. Murder Your Darlings is a contemporary thriller and a real departure from Jenna’s very popular historical fiction, a departure that is totally in keeping with Jenna’s own enthusiastic, passionate personality. As her own agent said, Jenna’s earlier work was elegant and restrained, although absolutely still powerful, as you know if you’ve read it, but in this one, in Murder Your Darlings, Jenna lets herself loose. We had a wonderful time talking about it, and I think you’re going to have a really good time listening. Jenna, welcome. Thank you so much for joining us for the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast.Jenna BlumYou’re so welcome. I am the one who’s honored to be here. Thanks for having me.KJ Dell’AntoniaI am really excited. So, listeners, as you probably heard in the intro, which I haven’t recorded yet, I asked Jenna to join us because she’s doing a big thing. She’s making a jump into a new genre for her, and I can totally relate, and I suspect many of you can too. Her new book, which is out approximately now, as you hear this, is kill your dollar, Kill your darlings. [intended title: Murder Your Darlings] And it is one of those, like, if somebody wrote a book just for me, it would be this kind of book, or this possibly exact book, which is such a thrill. It’s, you know, that combination of the thing that makes me my buy now list, which is, isn’t a thing like that thing where you’re like, if you tell me the book is about such and such, I’m like, yes, yeah, just, just take my money. So it’s that, plus that really great, commercial, friendly, accessible, like the voice I want to read. It’s not—I mean, I don’t know if any of those adjectives thrilled you—but easy reading is hard writing, and nobody knows that more than me, and you do that very well.Jenna BlumThat is so kind of you, KJ. Thank you. So I’m going to rudely start out by issuing a small correction, but the...KJ Dell’AntoniaOh no.Jenna BlumActually, no, no, it’s fine. It’s Murder Your Darlings. And they’re...KJ Dell’AntoniaOh, okay, sorry.Jenna BlumPopular phrase. And one of the reasons I call the book Murder Your Darlings, as opposed to kill your darlings, which people tend to gravitate to, is that the book is really about writerly appropriation in the biggest way, about story thievery in the biggest possible go big or go home kind of way. And the phrase kill your darlings is itself an appropriation, which I didn’t know until I started writing this. But the original phrase is Murder Your Darlings. It was coined by a gentleman called Sir Arthur Quiller-Couch in 1914, and he was giving a lecture on good writing, and he said, whenever you think you’ve done something exceptionally clever in your manuscript, by all means, put it in, and then go in and take it out: murder your darlings. And then William Faulkner ran with it, and Stephen King ran with it, and it became really popularized. And I thought, how cool to go back to the original in a book about appropriation. So it’s Murder Your Darlings.KJ Dell’AntoniaIt’s also—that’s better. I can’t believe I got it wrong, because it has this great cover with the quill and the blood. And I—it that’s, that’s better. It’s just it, I don’t know, kill your darlings has also become a very glib phrase. So to switch it to Murder Your Darlings kind of makes—kind of gives you that record scratch moment of like, oh, oh wait. Oh! Right? So I like it.Jenna BlumI appreciate that. Thank you. I mean, I myself was thinking, kill your darling, so I love to, sort of like, care what of that phrase, that Murder Your Darlings had a sort of a weightier sound to it. And despite, like, the joy that I had in writing about writing, and I hope all your listeners just like me, I’m—my must order now books are all about writers, about writers about writing, especially fiction about writing. I had so much joy in that, but the book also has some pretty weighty subjects at its heart as well. So I feel like that weightier murder is somehow indicative of...KJ Dell’AntoniaWell, that brings us really well to the next question that I wanted to ask you, which is, what was your intention around this? This is definitely, you—now I think probably we step out with every book, but this is you stepping out and playing big, which is, you know, is a new theme that we’re talking about around here. So what was your intention for Murder Your Darlings? What did you want it to be?Jenna BlumI love that you’re doing the go big or go home theme. I always think that way. I’m not a quiet writer, not probably, not a quiet person.KJ Dell’AntoniaYou’re not really, no, not—that’s not what I would say. Oh, Jenna, she’s so shy and retiring...yeah. Yeah.Jenna BlumSo I had so much joy and so much fun writing Murder Your Darlings, because all I had to do was unpack my life. She’s such a wallflower. My sister saw a photo of me with a megaphone at a—as an activist at a rally, and she’s like, nobody here is surprised. This is what I’ve been living with for all the years. Anyway. So my intent with this was really just to have some fun, honestly. I have been working on historical fiction, and I’m known primarily for historical fiction, and I was working on historical fiction when the idea for Murder Your Darlings came to me, and I felt like I had two books trying to elbow their way through a doorway at the same time. And because I am more known for historical fiction, and my editor had already green lighted that idea, I was very dutifully working along on it—and it was a terrific idea, I have to say, like on paper. It was an idea on paper that should have been good, but it really wasn’t. There was no juice to it. So I kept writing, and then thinking, right, what was the motivation? What did the character actually want in that scene? And then I would realize I had no idea and didn’t care. And so I was thinking about Murder Your Darlings, which is about a female writer—mid career, female writer who falls in love with a stratospherically successful and very charming male writer and then finds out that he may or may not be killing female writers to take their stories, or is it one of the number of women who are stalking him, especially this very persistent stalker named the Rabbit. And so I had this idea kind of elbowing its way into my head, and I thought, I don’t, I don’t know if I’m qualified to write a thriller. I’ve written a thriller. Who am I to do this? And then I read Jean Hanff Korelitz’s The Plot, which is so good, so contemporary, so fresh, so funny, so smart, so everything. And I stalked her. I called her, got her phone number, called her, and said, how was it for you making this pivot, going from quote, literary fiction end quote, to writing a thriller? And she said, I just write what I want to write and let other people market it. You should write what you write. And I thought, Babu, because I had always loved reading about writers. I’ve always wanted to write about writers, and she kind of gave me—well, she literally gave me permission to do it.KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd like you said, it really has some bigger themes around that. Did they come with? Did they come with the idea? Did some of them come with the idea, and some of them had to get pulled in later? Like, how? How did that piece of it play out?Jenna BlumYeah, great question. I am a writer who always knows what her theme is going to be. I would have a mission statement on the board in my study saying, like, here’s what this book is about, and then I hope it reaches the reader through osmosis, as opposed to me being preached. So the plot has to express that idea. But then I am so plot focused when I’m writing and just wanting to get all the blocking down and get this play down so the reader doesn’t get bored that I have to go back through often and shade in the theme and the emotional resonances I hope are there. And one of the very big themes for me in Murder Your Darlings is of codependency, and what makes a smart, successful woman with a stable life, a good community, who’s a teacher, who’s a writer, who has really built her life for herself, fall for somebody who she knows very well may be sketchy AF. It’s like, okay, I’m just going to keep my hand on the hot stove. You know? Why is that? And I feel like, if you know a woman like this, if you were a woman like this, you are a woman like this. I certainly have been this way my whole life, like falling for the sketchy dudes and feeling great shame about it. I thought, I really want to write this book for all of us, or women or men—I should say this is not gender specific.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah.Jenna BlumOr that person who’s like, don’t open that door, and you open the door anyway.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah.Jenna BlumWhy?KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd people are like, so many flags, and you’re like, I kind of like flags.Jenna BlumBut he’s... but he’s so cute.KJ Dell’AntoniaHe looks so good in red.Jenna BlumRight? Exactly. And I have to say that the relationship at the center of the book between Sam, the female writer, and William, who’s the male writer, they do have some really rare commonalities too that are hard for Sam to overlook. And she comes from a trauma background, so she can’t trust her own instincts. And so I wanted to, as in all of my novels, work with people who have survived trauma: how they react in the atmosphere and the aftermath, and how their behavior gets kind of torqued or twisted, and sometimes makes it difficult for them to make the healthy decision, which makes...KJ Dell’AntoniaRight!Jenna BlumGood fiction. Good fiction is about people making bad, bad, bad decisions, so...KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd you make him real too. He’s not just bad for the hell of it. You know, it’s not—I— that’s one of the things that is a pet peeve of mine in books, is when you’re like, yeah, that person had really bad parents that really messed them up. But why? Like, yeah. I mean, you can’t have everyone and their parents mess them up. And I would totally do that instantly. That’s my beige flag. Would you like to know how their great, great grandparents screwed everyone up with epigenetics?Jenna BlumIt’s like the poem, right? Is it the Larkin poem? TheyKJ Dell’AntoniaOh, yeah, “They screwed him up,” yeah, yeah. But I always know, like, who screwed them up? And hey, who screwed them up? And who screwed them up?Jenna BlumThat’s a funny thing. Thank you for saying that. So William, and a third of the book is narrated from William’s point of view, and then Sam and the stalker the Rabbit get the other two thirds of the book, and Sam and the Rabbit go back and forth, and William has his own narration at the center of the book. I have to say, I loved writing William. I really did. He’s first person, like, in the guy’s skin. He is really arrogant, like, really narcissistic, and he was, and could never use a, you know, five cent word when a $30,000 word will do. But I really loved writing him, because, as you said, you’re right, like, he doesn’t, he doesn’t mean to be any of those things. And I mean, we all recognize a narcissist, which is such a hot word these days, and I mean, he is a legitimate narcissist, but he doesn’t need to be narcissistic. He just is that way, and he has his reasons that are very clear for being that way. And it wasn’t until—this is when you ask him, before, what did I put in afterwards?—it wasn’t until I was really done writing his first draft, and one of my writer friends said to me, but like, what were his parents like? And I thought, I don’t care. Like, I don’t care what his home life was like. I don’t care about any of that. But when I did go into that room, because I knew I had to, there were things in that room that were a chamber of horrors, that were like, truly grotesque. And I thought, this actually makes sense to help explain why he’s motivated the way he is.KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd why she would be drawn to him. Like, you know, he’s not just—there’s there is more in there. I, you know, not to excuse, not to excuse William. Is he the first character you’ve written that was, that was like that, deeply narcissistic, and in the first person?Jenna BlumThat is a great question. He’s not the first character I’ve written who is narcissistic. In my first novel, Those Who Save Us, there’s a Nazi officer who is deeply narcissistic and also totally unaware of his own qualities, which I guess actually defines a narcissist, like they have...KJ Dell’AntoniaOh yeah, yeah. I think if you know you’re a narcissist, you’re not a narcissist.Jenna BlumRight? Exactly, right, right. Nobody’s going to be like, I’m a narcissist. Who cares? I love being a narcissist. They’re more like the world serves to please me, and if it doesn’t, then the world is wrong. But this is the first I’ve written from the first person, and in fact, this is the first novel I’ve written anything in the first person. So the Rabbit in this book is first person—the stalker—and William is in the first person. Sam is third person. And I haven’t written in first person since graduate school, and when I did, I was kind of soundly spanked for it. And they’re like; there are graduate school scenes in this book as well. And in Murder Your Darlings, the workshop scenes that I love so much, because I pretty much just airlifted them from the [unintelligible].KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, which is the best. Absolutely.Jenna BlumAnd it’s so fun, so much fun to write, like grad school, boot camp, you know whatever... I’m here for all of that. Murders the people who it doesn’t make stronger, but, but yeah, I remember writing...KJ Dell’AntoniaSo what was that like to—what is it like to switch your normal writing perspective, so the POV to first person? And did you, did you do it from the right away? Or did you, you know, did you write it the wrong way and then switch it? How did—and did it bother you? Were you like, oh, no, I don’t know if I can do this?Jenna BlumNo. I loved it very much. I loved it so much. And William was actually not even supposed to be in the book, so I can talk about that in a minute, but the first, first person character to come in was the Rabbit, and she wasn’t originally supposed to be there either. It was supposed to be Sam narrating, and the third limited, which is my lane, and I’ve been in that for years and years. And I do love it. I love Sam’s voice as well. But the Rabbit came to me on Christmas Day. I want to say 2023, and I was thinking about Sam’s relationship with William, and how Sam, which is still in Murder Your Darlings, gets very jealous, because she knows that William is really opaque about his relationships with other women, and he cannot resist the charms of the opposite gender, shall we say. So Sam is stalking him. She still stalks him a little bit in this book. And I thought, what if one of the other women were also stalking him alongside Sam? And what would that look like? And I was supposed to be at a friend’s house on Christmas Day. Our whole family got the flu. I was lying in my apartment in Boston feeling wretchedly sorry for myself. It was raining. It wasn’t even snowing. It was a sort of Dickensian awfulness. And I was lying around feeling bad for myself and thinking about this, as one does. And then all of a sudden, I jumped up and ran into my study and put my hands on the keyboard and wrote what would become the prologue of the novel. It is unchanged, in that.KJ Dell’AntoniaWow!Jenna BlumAnd she just came out of freaking nowhere. And I will tell you, it was like plugging my hands into a socket. Like, every time I sat down to write the Rabbit, I just felt electrified. Her voice is not my voice. She’s very colloquial. She’s the person who tells it like it is, speaks truth to power, sits down at the kitchen table and says, like, look, here’s what you got to do. You all just follow suit, we’re going to do, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she just really is very plain spoken and very funny and very sarcastic. I think she’s also not me in terms of, like, what she looks like, in terms of her background. She comes from a poverty background. She comes from an abuse background. She’s a bookseller, which actually I was. But it was astonishing that, like, every day, when I looked at my schedule and I knew I had to write the Rabbit, I was like, oh, thank God, because every time I put my hands on the keyboard, she was there. And I just got such a kick out of her—stalking William, stalking Sam. I think she’s amazing. And there’s a big surprise tied up to the Rabbit. So not to spoil anything, but those of you who love, you know, your twists in your fiction will, I think, be—hopefully—be gratified by, by the twist with the Rabbit. William came in about halfway through. I want to say maybe the first draft. I was going Sam, Rabbit, Sam, Rabbit, Sam, Rabbit, and I was going into the second section of the book, act two, and I was going to continue doing that. And I had this whole outline. Sam, Rabbit, Sam, Rabbit, Sam, Rabbit—rising action. I knew all my plot points all sketched out. And then one day, I was like, what if, instead of sort of reheating these leftovers and trying to make the action continue to step ladder up, what if William gets a section in all of his William glory and all of his narcissistic glory? And that kind of gives the reader a little bit more reason to be hopeful for Sam and also scared for her, because we know from his perspective what his life was really like, and he’s not being truthful with her about it. And I called my editor and said, I’m going to do this thing, maybe, with your permission. Like, do you mind if I write, you know, some sample William chapters? And I was so nervous about it. I had this whole defense about it. Here’s why this is going to be good. She was like; I think that’s a brilliant idea. Do the whole section from his point of view, if you want to, if you want to. I think that’s great. And again, sitting down to write, I felt like I plug my hands into this socket. But William grounds the whole book with this sort of dark electricity, I think, because he is...KJ Dell’AntoniaSo you already had it from the other points of view? Did you have it planned, or did you have it written?Jenna BlumI had it planned. I had a plan. I had bits of scenes. I had snippets of scenes and chapters. But I have scenes they dearly love that are not in the book at all because William usurped...KJ Dell’AntoniaBecause he can’t—yeah, he doesn’t—well, and he is not there.Jenna BlumAccess, no. But, I mean, I kind of flipped them inside out in like a pocket, into, like, other parts of the book, so that, like, I know what Sam and the Rabbit are doing during William’s sections. And you see them, of course...KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, yeah.Jenna BlumFrom his point of view instead. It was not a darling I had to murder. Like, again, like sitting down to write his point of view was a relief, in some ways, to get out of my own skin. Getting into somebody else’s skin, in the first person, is the farthest you can go from yourself if that character is not, in fact, you. And that’s why I love writing fiction. I get out of my own skin into somebody else’s skin; walk around in that virtual reality. I just freaking love it. It’s the best part—kind of insanity there is.KJ Dell’AntoniaSo with this project, what did you love most about the process? Sounds like there’s going to be—sounds like there’s a competition, because it really sounds like you had—I mean, I’m sure there were some hard moments. We’ll get to that. That’s my next question, actually. But what did you love most? What do you love most about how it turned out, and what did you love most about doing it?Jenna BlumI love all the things. I literally have goosebumps when you say this. I mean, it is a competition, because I love this book so much. And I know you’re not supposed to say it about your own books, but I do. I just love this book, and it might be my favorite book that I’ve written. My favorite. I love it so, so much. I hope readers feel the same way. I think one of the reasons I love it so much is I think it’s really funny. Like, there was never a single day where I sat down to work on this book that I didn’t snort laugh, like, in the middle of the scene, because William is so charming and yet so horrible and fatuous and whatever. So he really made me laugh, whether I’m viewing him from the outside or from inside. And the worse he gets the more funny I thought he was. The Rabbit, likewise, in her speaking truth to power kind of way. And then Sam sections allowed me to spill the tea about the weirdness and the wonderfulness of the writer life, much of which is just so peculiar, whether you’re on tour or you’re trying to, you know, zhuzh an idea into being and you can’t quite get it, or, you know, being in a relationship with another writer. I mean, all of those things are just—they’re just nuts. And so every day I sat down and laughed and laughed and laughed and, like, cackled in my apartment, scaring the dog. And I thought it was so much fun. And now looking at the book and, like, holding it in my hands, I can open it to any page and be like, yeah, oh my God, I totally remember that line that was so great. So I hope people have fun with it. The early reviews that have come in have been, thank God, you know, Inshallah, they were great. And that’s what people have been saying. It’s a delicious book. It’s a fun book. It’s a delightful book. Nobody’s ever said this about my books before.KJ Dell’AntoniaIt’s totally very different. It’s totally, really different than your other work, right?Jenna BlumYes. Well, I mean, I think so. Like, when you’re not writing historical fiction, fiction requires—or at least it did for me—because I’m writing about big, serious things, you’re writing about World War Two, it’s probably not going to be all that funny. But I feel like the third person voice that I’ve been using most of my authorial career has been hopefully elegant and restrained, because I really, you know, working with my word choices—every author does—but I’m trying to maintain a very even narrative tone. This one is just so freaking off the chain, because I got to write in a contemporary way. I got to get into the first person, other people’s voices, other people’s experiences. It was interesting. My agent, who’s very, very smart, and she is French, and when I came to her and said, you know that historical fiction that you thought I was writing, it’s actually not that. It’s a thriller. That’s something different. She read it, and I was, again, sort of terrified of what she would say. And she called me, and she was like, [imitating her French accent] “Jenna, I think what you are doing is smart, but more than that, I think it is brave, because your whole life you have hide behind this voice you use for your historicals. And instead, this is like, really, you taking the gloves off. This is your voice. This is you.” And I just felt so validated and empowered by that observation.KJ Dell’AntoniaThat is exactly why we were—we are here. If this is—it’s so, so meet. We are meeting for the first time. Lots of times when I get somebody on the podcast, we’ve never encountered each other, and your vibe is so Murder Your Darlings. And really, you know, at this point in your life and in your career, this is really, you know, who you’re presenting as. And I, of course, don’t know how you presented, you know—maybe we should go back seven years to before a lot of things that have evolved in your life. I don’t know whether you were maybe a little more elegant and restrained yourself. I have no idea.Jenna BlumUh uhh, never.KJ Dell’AntoniaNo?Jenna BlumNope.KJ Dell’AntoniaI mean, it must feel so great to have released that part of yourself into this much, you know, loved part of your world.Jenna BlumIt just feels so much easier in a lot of ways. I remember—and I’m thinking about this while we’re talking—lying on the couch and watching the You series by Caroline Kepnes, like, based on a series of books that she’s written that are really tremendously good. And I remember I was looking for a binge at the time. I just finished something that was fantastic. And, like, you know, what am I going to watch? And I clicked into You, and I was so happy that I did because I thought, this woman writes the way people actually speak. Her dialogue is so smart. It’s so Cracker Jack. It’s so spot on. And I am now friends with Caroline. Caroline is amazing, and I remember saying that to her the first time I met her, just as a total fangirl. Like, how did you do that? She was like, this is just how I write, and I have not been giving myself permission for years and years to do that.But in fact, again, my agent would say to me, you know, [imitating her French accent] “You write these, these book, and you go to your readings and people think they’re going to meet, like, Margaret Thatcher or something, because books are very serious and very heavy and very, you know, weighty about this big topic, and then you are a goofball.” And I am!KJ Dell’AntoniaI love the French accent you are giving us here. As a student of French, I’m particularly enjoying it.Jenna BlumOh, I’m so sorry then, because my agent hates when I do this. She hates it. She’s like; please don’t use the French accent. I’m like, I have to use it. And she’s in the book, and her name is Mireille, and I wrote her exactly as she speaks. And she—my editor, whose name is Sara Nelson—is in the book as Patricia, and I pulled no punches or even tried to disguise them whatsoever. And they like to bicker over who is more important in the book, Mireille or Patricia. So that’s super fun. But I mean, I do think there is something really liberating about entering a scene, entering a chapter, and thinking, I don’t have to fancify this language. I don’t have to smooth over its edges. If I want to say somebody is sketchy AF, I say they’re sketchy AF.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, I don’t have to figure out how someone would have said that in 1942, which is—I mean, I do—I don’t want to—your past work, which I haven’t read all of, but what I have read is very much infused with a humanity and a female power. It may be elegant and restrained, but it’s in there. It’s like, you know, coiled, but it’s in there. So I don’t want to propose that those books aren’t really you. But this is, you know, this is definitely more who you come out of the box as.Jenna BlumYeah, there won’t be such a mismatch with this for readers who are coming to my work for the first time. If you do that and then you see me in person, you’ll be like, oh, this totally tracks, as opposed to... And I think one of the great things about writing fiction is you can be in that sort of disguise. And my previous fiction, the historical fiction—and I did have one contemporary novel in there as well—I think the topics were just not as funny to me. Like, writing life is very funny, and contemporary life is funny. But I think that writing historical fiction enables you to get in a time machine and go back and put on a different set of clothes, and that is reflected in the narration. And this, I think, shares some commonality with my other fiction, in that, like William, I am a friend of big vocabulary. Like, I love my vocabulary. I love to deploy. But it just feels more bouncy to me. Like, it just feels buoyant and super energized. And I love it. Like, I have three more thrillers lined up in my head on the runway that I would love to write.KJ Dell’AntoniaThat’s amazing.Jenna BlumSo I’m really excited about—I hope this book does well. So everybody should buy it, please, so I can write more thrillers. Please.KJ Dell’AntoniaEveryone do that. We’re going to put all the links for that in the show notes. So one more question before we turn to me asking you about other people’s books. What was the hardest thing about writing this? I have a guess for what you’re going to say, but I want to hear what you say first.Jenna BlumI don’t know if there was a hard thing about writing this book.KJ Dell’AntoniaI was going to say; maybe it was giving yourself permission to do it in the first place.Jenna BlumOh, interesting. No. I mean, that’s more about marketing, in some ways. I had to get permission. I didn’t want my agent to be like, no, this sucks. I mean, she would try to sell it no matter what, but I really...KJ Dell’AntoniaOh, you’re such a disappointment.Jenna BlumRight? If we must write it. Nash, my editor as well—I’ve been with my agent for 24 years, and I had been with my editor for, like, almost 10 years now, which is pretty amazing.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, that’s the dream.Jenna BlumSo glad to have one on one shoulder and one on the other shoulder. So I didn’t want them to both be like, oh gosh, she’s writing a thriller, everybody writing a thriller. What was the hard thing about writing this book? I think the fact that I’m no longer writing it, honestly. It’s one of those, like, tough act to follow books. You know, I think about other ideas and I’m like, but they’re not darlings, though. So, like, I really had so much fun with this book that when I was done, I was really bummed. I will say that there is a paragraph toward the end of the book that is, for me, the heart and the soul of the entire book. And I’m always curious about other writers, whether they have these paragraphs that are really the sort of nut graph of the whole piece, to use a journalistic term—like, the whole, the heart of it. And I cannot read that paragraph without crying. And I revised this book eleventy-two times, and I could never get through it without weeping. I read the whole thing aloud when I was in the copy edit stage, and I was like, you know. So, I mean, is that hard? I don’t know if that’s hard, but it was like a part that stabbed me, I think. And then the rest of it is just, like, a pure freaking joy. And I really hope people feel the same way, because, I mean, it’s just—why not bring joy?KJ Dell’AntoniaWhy not bring joy? That is the thing that has stuck with me most about stuff I’ve read most recently about writing. And unfortunately, I’ve already forgotten where I saw it, but someone was saying, if you’re read, why should people read your book? What are you—what are you giving them? They were like, if, if your whole point is, but I worked so hard, that is not how this works. But yeah, like, great. I mean yay. But also, I mean, what’s in it for me, man? I’m the reader, and what’s in it for me? And joy is the answer that I want. So I think it’s going to be the answer everyone else wants too.Jenna BlumAnd, like deliciousness and fun and hopefully—I mean, I write all of my books at the bottom line, at the common denominator, to help people feel less alone in their experiences. So if people read this book and they’re like, oh my God, I was totally—say I’m walking into this relationship—oh my God, oh my God, that’s me, oh my God. Like, I really hope that people see themselves in her.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, it’s the gift of getting yourself, getting out of your head and also seeing yourself more clearly.Jenna BlumYeah.KJ Dell’AntoniaThat, to me, is the hope with fiction.Jenna BlumYep, totally agree. You get to escape. You get to have an adventure. You get to feel the work through somebody else’s experience. And then you also get to feel like, whatever your weirdo experience—all weirdos—like, you’re not alone in that experience. We are here.KJ Dell’AntoniaI love it. All right. Well, switching gears completely, tell me what you’ve read recently where, again, we’ve talked really hard about this—this book was a leap. It was a great leap for you. You’re playing big. What have you read recently where you could tell that the writer was also playing big, going, going to the outside of their abilities?Jenna BlumYeah, I think—I mean, I know so many talented writers. I think they’re just trying out different keys the same way I am. And my answer really runs along my own track, because there are a lot of writers I know who are writing thriller or true crime disguised as fiction type of stuff, who have been primarily and previously known as quote literary fiction, end quote, and just, like, a term that that I don’t like. But when I say that, I really mean when the attention is paid so much to the language and the characters, and you can be a little more experimental in form, et cetera. But I think really, like Jean Hanff Korelitz, who I mentioned earlier.KJ Dell’AntoniaYep, I loved The Plot and The Sequel. They’re both great.Jenna BlumI love The Plot and The Sequel. I did not have the pleasure of interviewing Jean for The Plot, although somebody on [unintelligible] did. But I did have the pleasure of interviewing her for The Sequel. And I was fascinated by, like, that is a go big thing, because everybody’s like, oh, The Sequel is not as good as the original. So even to write a sequel in the first place is going really big in my work.KJ Dell’AntoniaAnd then to, to have it be what it was. I actually, in some ways, thought it was better. But, I mean, they were both great. I really enjoyed both of them, but The Sequel was just like, “ooohh, oooww,” in the way it just... Anyway. It was, it was very skillful.Jenna BlumI loved that it was really ingenious. And I loved talking to her about thrillers. I was like, how do you do this when you have a plot and you need to figure out, you know, at the end, how do you surprise the reader? And she said, it’s like going down a long hallway filled with doors, and you keep opening a door and closing the door. You know, that’s not the answer to the plot problem. That’s not the answer. That’s not the answer. That’s not the answer. And at the end, you have only one door left, and that is your thriller solution. Like, that’s the twist ending. And I was like, people plan that? I mean, I have to plan everything. I plan going to the market, you know. I’m like that person. And, you know, she didn’t. She doesn’t plan it. And I thought that was [unintelligible].KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, I too am a planner. And that boggles my mind. I don’t mind if the plan then changes, but without—I could not. I cannot operate without the plan.Jenna BlumI can’t write without the plan, even if I’m not writing a thriller. So to write a thriller that is still satisfying and not have that delicate calibration of, yes, this is the surprise that I’m going to plant in chapter 39—that’s astonishing. So she is one. And my friend Chris Castellani, who has the book coming out February 17—I want to say its called Last Seen. And Chris is a beautiful literary writer. He had a book called A Kiss from Maddalena that grew into a series of three books. His last book was called Leading Men, and he got a review in The New York Times that said his prose was—I memorized this, not because I’m jealous, don’t worry—was opaline, and likened him to F. Scott Fitzgerald. And I remember calling out that review, and I was like, sir, you should get that as a tramp stamp. I certainly would. And so he has this reputation as this fine, fine literary writer, and he decided to go into true crime slash thriller territory alongside me. And I’m so glad our books are out at almost the same time so we can kind of keep each other company in this venture. So Chris’s book, Last Seen, is about the victims of the smiley face killer, and they are all of these young men who are killed by the smiley face killer, narrating from within the frozen rivers in which they are trapped, dead. So they’re, like, sort of narrating from beyond.KJ Dell’AntoniaWell, that’s still experimental. He did not fully leave his form.Jenna BlumHe didn’t, and it’s...KJ Dell’AntoniaHe’s taking his form with him.Jenna BlumYeah, he is, in a way that I don’t know if I have or not. And I would leave that for greater minds to determine. I mean, I hope that what I’m writing is still smart. And again, there’s the big vocabulary, but, but there does seem to be more of a jump in some ways. But Chris—it is a little sort of Virgin Suicides, I guess, but from the point of view of all of these lost boys. But you also get what their family members are saying, or the people who love them, the last time they saw them. And it’s this beautiful, sort of kaleidoscopic endeavor that also provides satisfying answers as to who did this. So he’s taking his craft and applying it to almost a whodunit in a way. And I think it’s really ingenious and really fascinating to watch this track change from the outside, where I feel like it’s almost like T. S. Eliot is writing a thriller—like that’s kind of how it reads—except with more sex and death. And Chris and I are going to speak together at Politics and Prose on March 5, I want to say, and we...KJ Dell’AntoniaNow I can put that in the show notes, because this will be out. If anybody’s in the DC area, you could hit Politics and Prose.Jenna BlumYeah, come on down.KJ Dell’AntoniaThat would be amazing.Jenna BlumWe are calling our panel the sex and death panel, or the sex and death conversation, because both our books are so sexy and so deathly. And then my friend Alex George, who I love, said, well, you should invite an accountant to be on your panel, and then it could be sex, death, and tax.KJ Dell’AntoniaYes.Jenna BlumWhich we’re not going to do, but...KJ Dell’AntoniaOh well.Jenna BlumBut that’s funny.KJ Dell’AntoniaOh well, they’ll, they’ll charge sales tax or something. It’ll—they’re still taxes. Taxes will always be with us.Jenna BlumRight. Exactly. Sex, death, and taxes. So come on out for sex, death, and taxes. And the book Last Seen. And it’s just—it’s really haunting. It’s a very haunting book.KJ Dell’AntoniaI love this. Well, I know that what’s next for you is a pretty big tour for this, which I will put all the links to in the show notes, not to raise the bar. But are you? Are you already working at—this is sort of, this is actually more like a craft question. Are you already working on something new? Are you noodling something new? How do you manage this process part of your writing?Jenna BlumI’m noodling something new. For all of the ventures into new territory, I haven’t been able to change my spots yet in terms of process, which, for somebody writing thrillers, is not great, because you can, you know, hopefully turn them out faster than fiction. To me, the historical fiction requires so much research that took me much longer to write. But I do have those ideas lined up. I think what I like to do with ideas is I kind of roll them around in my head like marbles to see if they are going to stick around, or if they’re going to roll down a hole and disappear somewhere, like a little rabbit hole. And then you know that they don’t have stick-to-itiveness. All three of the ideas that I’m thinking about are still there. The thing for me is I’m a very single-task person, and when I’m promoting, I’m really promoting. Like, my tour—amazingly bananas. Like, I am going to be in a different place every single day connecting with readers, like Sam in Murder Your Darlings, the heroine. I write to connect with readers. I don’t write for the joy of the writing, although I love this book and enjoyed writing it so much. Like, I write because I want it to meet you guys and be out there, like talking about my book, talking about other books. So when I’m on tour, I don’t actually write. And I was saying this to my friend the other day, Dawn Tripp, who’s also an amazing writer, who wrote Jackie, and has been on tour. She did something like 162—I’m making it up—but she...KJ Dell’AntoniaI actually saw her at... outside Boston, the Newburyport Book Festival. Oh, I know, which is amazing, which I also will be at. Yeah. That’s a great festival.Jenna BlumYeah, it’s so good. And I’m going to be in conversation with my editor, so if you have any...KJ Dell’AntoniaOh, there? At the Newburyport festival? I’m sure—I usually go. So that sounds great.Jenna BlumPlease come, please come. Because that’ll be really fun, because she can spill the tea on, on, like, how disorganized I might actually be. But Dawn—I was saying—she’s like, oh, I’m home now. I’m so happy I can write. I was like; I can’t imagine how you would have written on that tour. And she said, oh, no, I write every day, because if I don’t, I don’t feel great, you know, I don’t feel great in my own skin. And I was like, that’s just nuts, man. Like, I’m going—I’m done with this book. I’m going to Nordstrom Rack. I’m going to go shopping. I’m not touching another book for five years. But I do, I’m kind of looking forward to being back this summer. I have a couple of months that I think are slower, and I want to develop those ideas. So let’s see if I can, you know...KJ Dell’AntoniaLet him audition a little more loudly.Jenna BlumYeah, I love that audition. That’s so great. I’m going to steal that, but I’ll credit you.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, yeah. It’s all yours. All right. This was so great. Thank you so much. This was a super fun conversation, and I’m going to enjoy creating the intro and writing up the show notes for it. And, gosh, I hope everybody goes out and buys this too. It is a wholly enjoyable experience, a great way to cleanse your palate from your January, your December, whatever, whatever that may have been. And now in January, you know, come Murder Your Darlings with Jenna. You’ll—you won’t be sorry.Jenna BlumThank you so much. Thank you for having me. This is a sheer, pure delight. Thank you.KJ Dell’AntoniaThank you. Okay, writers, until next week, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

It’s the December Booklab, and while our booklabs are normally only for subscribers, we’ve made this one free as a little present to you—something to listen to while all the other pods are having a well deserved break.How this works: we’ve chosen two among the brave souls who have submitted their first pages (i.e. first 350 words) to us. As always, we read the page aloud, with no other information other than genre and (sometimes) title. We talk about what we read, how it was received, what we think we do and don’t know about the book and what we should know. We offer constructive comments to these writers, and to all writers, on how to make that first page work as hard for you as it can.And then we answer the question: would we turn the page?Kids, those first pages have to WORK. People download a book, or grab an audio sample, often without the benefit of your flap copy or the beautiful cover, and you need to sell them on sticking around from that first minute. The two entries for this episode:* The Burning Truth is a commercial thriller centered on a woman whose sister’s death is reopened when a teenage true-crime podcaster starts investigating a case that hits dangerously close to home.* Camil and Bloom is contemporary literary fiction about a middle-aged woman at a bar grappling with being ghosted, using sharp observational detail to explore loneliness, aging, and stalled lives.Our takeaway is that a first page must work with extreme efficiency: it needs to establish character, stakes, and story direction all at once. Vivid details and strong writing aren’t enough on their own; those details have to be focused and clearly tied to the protagonist’s emotional core so readers understand whose story this is and why it matters. A compelling hook helps, but clarity of perspective and purpose is what ultimately makes a reader turn the page.#AmWriting is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

It’s on again!The Blueprint is one of our most popular offerings—Our 10 step plan to help you define the book you want to write before you write 100k words in search of it—but this time we’re going in fast and we’re knocking this puppy out in just 6 weeks. Starting January 12 and rolling though February 20, Jennie Nash and I (this is KJ) will lead you through the 14 foundational questions that every writer should ask of themselves and their book, whether you’re just getting started, are mid-draft or starting on on the whatever-number revision. We’ll have weekly assignments and live events (Mondays 6:30 PM EST/3:30 PM PST, recorded so no one missed anything). We’ll have updated access to all the Blueprint resources. There will be chat and solidarity and all the energy that comes from being a part of a community all working together to reach the same goal. Plus, every time we’ve done a Blueprint, somebody ends up with a book deal (listen here: An #AmWriting Success Story! ). That could be you. I LOVE Blueprint season. As Jennie says in the episode, the Blueprint comes from her realization that over and over again in her book coaching career (which is long and storied) she was seeing people come to her with the same mistakes—300-350 page manuscripts that lacked an inner structure, or an internal point, that meandered, were all plot and no heart or tried to offer instruction without ever conveying why it was so badly needed and what it would change for the reader.Her secret is that she developed the Blueprint for revision (more about that HERE) and then realized that using it from the get-go works, too.Look, I’m the first to tell you that the Blueprint doesn’t solve everything. But it helps… a lot. So get ready to Blueprint, whether you’re starting a new project or revising the current one (that’s where I’ll be)—and if you’re not already a supporter of the podcast (the only way to access the Blueprint) you should be. Oh I am so IN, counting the days.APPLICATIONS CLOSED What if you want even MORE? Then you could be one of a very few #AmWriting subscribers who join our first ever Blueprint Sprint cohort. 6 weeks of working together and write-alongs, 5 group-only live sessions, which will be recorded for anyone who can’t attend and a members-only community dedicated to helping you create a Blueprint that leads you to the book you want to write, ending with direct feedback from me and from Jennie on your flap copy and 3 page Inside-Outline. We’re keeping this small on purpose—we max out at 10 and we might drop that down—so applications to join this group open today and will be evaluated on a first-come, first serve basis. Once we have 10 people, we will close down the application, so get yours in early! Early-bird pricing is $1000 until December 22, after that the price goes up to $1200 (if there are spaces left by then).What are we looking for? 10 writers who are prepared to commit to the process and to the cohort, who do what they set out to do when they set out to do it, who welcome constructive feedback and are willing to do what it takes to build a blueprint for the book they want to create. Writers who know that sometimes you must look a hard truth in the face and cut your losses, that what goes in the scrap heap is rarely resurrected but that the scrap heap is a necessary part of the work. Writers who won’t take no for an answer, but can hear “not this” and feel both disappointment and a burning determination that the next effort will be the one that gets there.Also: no a******s.What will you need to apply? We want to hear about your professional and publishing backgrounds, but no publishing experience is necessary. We want to know where you are with this current project, but “still noodling” is a fine answer. The primary requirements are first, a readiness to do the work and second and more ephemerally, our sense of what makes a cohesive cohort.If that sounds like you, here you go—the time to apply is now. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Hi all! In honor of Thanksgiving, we decided to share what we’re doing to get MORE of what we’re grateful for in our writing lives—as in, try not just to give a nod to gratitude but actually increase the things we do to feel it. Enjoy! Are you staring down a holiday shopping list with a haunted look in your eyes? My great big guide to holiday under-the-radar book-giving perfection can help. Maybe you think not everyone in your life wants a book, but honestly, they are just wrong. I’ve got a book on my list for the therapy-speak-loving teen who’s glued to TikTok, a book for your mom whose book club just forced her to read Emily Henry and just wants a protagonist with a little seasoning. One for your dad, who thinks TV hasn’t been the same since The X-Files. And a few for your book-loving bestie, who’s read everything already, and all you have to do to get the list to drop right into your phone for your shopping pleasure is join my newsletter, Hashtag AmReading, at kjda.substack.com—link in the show notes and pretty much anywhere where you can find me, which is easy.EPISODE TRANSCRIPTMultiple SpeakersIs it recording? Now it’s recording, yay. Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. I don’t remember what I’m supposed to be doing. All right, let’s start over. Awkward pause. I’m going to rustle some papers. Okay, now—one, two, three.KJ Dell’AntoniaHey kids, it’s KJ, and this is the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast, the place where we help you play big in your writing life, love the process, and finish what matters.Jess LaheyI’m Jess Lahey. I am the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation, and you can find my work at The New York Times and The Washington Post and The Atlantic.Sarina BowenAnd I’m Sarina Bowen. My newest novel is called Thrown for a Loop, and you can find it at bookstores everywhere.Jennie NashAnd I’m Jennie Nash. I’m the founder and CEO of Author Accelerator, a company on a mission to lead the emerging book coaching industry. And I’m the author of the Blueprint books that help you get your book out of your head and onto your page. And today, the four of us have gathered to talk about gratitude. It’s the week of Thanksgiving, and we’ve been thinking about the things that we’re grateful for in our writing life, and how we want to celebrate that and amplify that. So we thought we’d share that all with you today. KJ, do you want to start by talking about what you’re grateful for?KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah, I actually managed to give this some thoughts. Since we did, we did talk about it. And I should say we kind of got the idea from Laura Vanderkam’s newsletter, which is really great, and you should subscribe. She was just talking about how, you know, it’s one thing to be grateful for things like, “Whoo, I’m grateful that I live in such a beautiful place,” but it’s another thing to say, “And because I’m grateful that I live in such a beautiful place, this week I will make a point of going for a walk, you know, tonight with my dog, in a place that I love,” or something along that. Her point was: come up with something and then actually do something to amplify that for yourself. So you’re not just sitting around, you know, writing a gratitude journal. You’re actually trying to do something about it. So having announced that I am totally prepared for this—I’m not really, but I kind of am. Okay. So one of the things that I am grateful for this year, a little weirdly, is AI, and it is not for the reasons anyone might think. I’m primarily grateful—I’m grateful that the spurt of AI in everything that I read, from Goodreads book reviews to things in my inbox to, I’m sorry, actual articles in actual newspapers… it’s become so recognizable. The stuff that is written, the pattern, the three examples, the particular words that are invariably used. Oh, somebody threw one out the other night—oh, in the real estate world, if it says something is “nestled between two things,” that’s AI. Anyway, that made me realize that the last thing I want is something else to do any of this for me. I just don’t. I just, you know, sometimes you sit around going, “Oh, somebody just write this book for me—” you know what? No. No. Because I don’t want my book to be nestled between a rock and a hard place or whatever. So, so no. So what I’m doing to sort of bring that home for myself is I’m actually trying to be more present, in particular within the AmWriting—the AmWriting universe. So I’ve been doing something that I’m calling Hashtag AmWriting ‘Almost’ Every Day. It’s really nowhere close to every day. Don’t worry about getting your inbox full. But I am—you know, that’s actually me. If I have time and something to say, or something to whine, or some write-alongs to share, or an idea, then I’m going to put that out there for y’all. And hopefully you’re going to comment back, and you probably won’t bother to use AI to do that, because that would be really silly. So that’s a thing I’m doing, and a thing that I’m grateful that I’ve suddenly come to the realization of.Jess LaheyWhat’s funny, KJ, is that I can absolutely tell when you’re really enjoying writing, because it—it just comes through, as it does with most people. But it’s been… your newsletters have been really fun, and you’re really in it. And I love reading them. I absolutely love reading them.Jennie NashIt gets a little sassy.KJ Dell’AntoniaThanks!Jess LaheyShe does. She does get a little sassy.Jennie NashI love it.Jess LaheyYep, the Shirley Jackson comes out in her, and it’s really fun. I like that a lot.Jennie NashJess, do you want to go next?Jess LaheyYeah. Sure. So newsletters have come to mean a lot to me. I have a lot of drafts sitting there, some of which I don’t think—I may never publish. But I’m really, really grateful that writing has, for my entire life, been the way that I process what I’m thinking about. I do it a lot by talking, but when I’m alone in the woods, like I am right now in Vermont, writing is how I figure things out, and I’m so grateful for that, because, you know, as I wrote about in my newsletter, I’m dealing with breast cancer, and I’m about to have surgery, and some of that stuff is really, really scary. And how I think about it, and how I manage it, is through writing about it. And I’m just—I’ve never been so grateful to have, even if it never goes out into the world, a place to write about that stuff. And, and, yeah, I’m so grateful for the words. Absolutely.Jennie NashThat’s so beautiful, that in the scariest, most difficult time, it’s the most natural thing that you turn to.Jess LaheyYeah, I think there are some people who pour themselves out in watercolors, or some people—whatever. The words, man, they’re the best.Jennie NashVery cool. Sarina, what about you?Sarina BowenYeah, well, as always, my gratitude runs toward the granular and the practical. I guess I can’t ever get away from that. So I am grateful to deadlines. Last month, I had a really difficult deadline. I had to scramble and set everything else aside and keep myself from panicking. And I did it. I actually—I turned it in, and then I immediately went on a book tour for a different book. So that was a difficult experience and a difficult month, and I’m not used to quite so much deadline pressure. But the wonderful thing is, is that I have these deadlines because of the work that I have placed with publishers, and I wouldn’t want to change a single thing about that. So even if I need to get a little better about my timing, I recognize that—even in the darkest day—that it’s a gift to have this problem. And then I’m also grateful for coffee shops, because that has been a place for me to work this year. And I never did this before. I was one of those people who had to be at home, in a room all by myself, in the quiet, writing. And suddenly that became really difficult for me. The quiet was too much quiet. There was too much doom scroll, there was too much self-reflection. And it really started the day after the election, actually. Like, I sort of ordered KJ to meet me out at a coffee shop because I needed to be where other people were. And it was really grounding—like, there we were, and the barista is a familiar face, and everything was fine inside that shop, you know, which was, in itself, a little bubble of privilege. But, but just being out in the world, seeing the rest of the world keep chugging, has really focused me. And I’ve spent a lot of time in a lot of different coffee shop and library settings in the intervening couple of months—and, well, almost a year now—and it’s felt fantastic. So I am excited that there are places where I’m allowed to go pay way too much for a cup of coffee and then sit there for two hours, and I will continue to do it.Jess LaheyCan I add a layer to the Sarina—to the Sarina stuff? Because I got to go to, as some of the other people talking today did, got to go to one of Sarina’s events. And, you know, we love Sarina, and we just rave about Sarina, and I think she’s a genius, and I think her writing is wonderful. But I was in a room of people who knew her work. Like, at one point, someone asked about whether or not she was going to be writing more in, like, The Company Series, which is one of the series she started to write. And there are a couple books—in that one. And then when she’s like, “Oh, I don’t—I think the time for that is over,” and people were like, “Awww,” and they were sad, and they knew characters really well. There was a die-hard fan of one of her books—I think it was Stay. And I just—I’m so grateful to be able to go to those events and see that other people love Sarina as much and respect Sarina’s work as much as I do. And my whole family was there. So my kid, who’s been hearing about, you know, my friend who wrote—writes “kiss me” books, he was like, “Man, people are into her books.” And I’m like, “Yeah, I told you. I’ve been trying to tell you.” And it was great. It was really fun to see people that into it.Sarina BowenWell, the thing is that romance readers really are special. I’m not saying there aren’t—there aren’t fandoms in other genres as well. But it’s something about a romance novel involves characters that aren’t afraid to say how they feel, and that is how romance readers are about the books. They are not afraid to say what they feel, and they are there for all the feelings in the first place. And it is really a great spot to be. So for every writer who ever looked down at the romance section of the bookstore, I got news for you. It’s really nice over there.Jess LaheyIt’s great. The people were so great.Jennie NashAnd we have gratitude for the romance—the romance readers too.Jess LaheyYeah.Jennie NashI love all of your—your gratitude’s. Mine is—I guess I would say that I am grateful for having the identity of a writer as a thing that I take with me wherever I go. And what I mean by that is I have been traveling to see family, and there were airplane troubles, lots of different airplane troubles, actually, on this particular trip, and lots of delays, overnight delays, sitting in airports for long periods of time, all of that, and I am never sad about those things. I’m almost never at a total loss. Like, you tell me that I have to spend six hours at the San Francisco airport, and I’m fine, because I can fill the time—not just, not just fill it like, “Oh, I can get through this,” but I can actually have really productive, useful, awesome time for six hours in the San Francisco airport. And if I have to spend a night at a terrible airport hotel, and, you know, just all the things—and I was so grateful when I thought about it in that way, that here’s a thing that I can take with me wherever I go, that all I need is something to write on. Could be my phone. It could be a piece of airport hotel notepad and paper. It could even be a torn-out page of a magazine that I bought at the airport. And I—I can be somebody. I can be somebody doing something that I find interesting and good and useful. And I just am so grateful for that. What an amazing thing to be. And obviously holiday travel is a special kind of thing, but just the thought that—that that comes with me, no matter where I go or what I do or what happens in my life—I have that, and I’m very grateful for that. So I don’t know, KJ, in terms of how am I going to bring that forward or exercise it or do it? I guess—I guess I’ve got to hope for smoother travels.KJ Dell’AntoniaYou should just get stuck in more airports, but you don’t want to get stuck in more airports? I feel like that should be your goal now.Jennie NashI guess if you take it to a very granular, practical level, like Sarina does—always have a notebook with you, man. That’s what I got to say, and a working writing implement. It saves the day.Jess LaheyAnd then you text the word “sticker” to the rest of us, and we know, “Oh, man, those travel stickers—those are worth double stickers.” We always say that travel stickers are double stickers.Jennie NashIt’s so true. It’s so true. Well, we just wanted to pop in here today to share this gratitude episode with you all and to give you some things to think about, about your writing life and your writing practice. And we hope that everyone is having a day filled with gratitude. KJ, do you want to say other things?KJ Dell’AntoniaI wanted to say that I think we’re all grateful for the way this community is slowly but steadily growing. I’ve been doing Write-Alongs with a bunch of people lately. We’ve been seeing people in the actual Substack chat, which, if you…Jess LaheyThe chat is fun.KJ Dell’AntoniaUse Substack chat, that’s great. And you know—you know what it is, and if you don’t, that’s fine. You can totally hit the same results by talking to us in the comments, which is the same as comments on anything. I just—I just really like sort of seeing the same people and faces pop up over and over again, and feeling the same kind of “less alone” about this that I used to feel back in the early days of blogging. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I have pretty much, you know—I’ll put a thing on Instagram, and then I’m out of there because, again, it’s—there’s, there’s so much slop now. I’m not really doing a lot of other things. But I am here, and there are other people here, and I think that’s so fun.Jennie NashIt’s really fun. And we will continue to be here with—with lots of offerings, from Nerd Corner episodes to Write Big episodes to KJ Writing Along episodes, and we’re in the chat to help and answer questions, and we have other things up our sleeves too. So keep tuning in.KJ Dell’AntoniaYeah. All right.Jess LaheyAll right, everyone until next time around, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Hey all, Jess here. Sarina and I both love these episodes where we, two certified nerds, get to hang out with likeminded individuals and dish. This week, we are going to talk about one of Jess’ most niggling worries: what does it mean to a publisher and an author to “earn out” a book advance and what does it mean to both if that never happens?Transcript available below, but making good ones isn’t free—help support the Podcast below!Your subscription = good podcast karma.KJ Dell’AntoniaHey listeners. Did you know that we review first pages sent in by supporters every month on the pod? It’s just one more reason you should be supporting Hashtag AmWriting, which is always free for listeners—and ad free, too. Please note that we will never pitch you the latest in writer supplements or comfy clothes for lap-topping. The good news is we’re open for First Page submissions right now! If you’ve got a work-in-progress and you’d like to submit the First Page for consideration for a Booklab: First Pages episode, just hit the support button in the show note, and you’ll get an email telling you all the details. Want to hear a Booklab episode? Current ones are for supporters only but roll your pod player back to September 2024 and there they’ll be!Multiple SpeakersIs it recording? Now it’s recording—yay. Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. I don’t remember what I’m supposed to be doing. All right, let’s start over. Awkward pause. I’m going to rustle some papers. Okay, now—one, two, three.Jess LaheyHey—welcome to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast! This is a podcast about writing all the things—this is the podcast about writing short things, long things, you know. And specifically, where we’re going to focus these days is on a little episode we’re calling The Publishing Nerd Corner with Jess and Sarina. I’m Jess Lahey. I’m the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation, and you can find my work at The Atlantic, at The New York Times, at The Washington Post, and at jesslahey.substack.com.Sarina BowenAnd I’m Sarina Bowen, the author of many contemporary novels. My new one is called Thrown for a Loop, and it drops on November 4th , and I am so excited. And today’s topic actually pertains to what happens when you have a book that’s publishing and everybody has all these big expectations. We’re going to cover one of them, which is earning out your advance—or not—and how to frame your thinking around this.Jess LaheyYeah, first. I mean, the way this Nerd Corner works is because Sarina tends to have more of the business acumen and the nerd acumen. I let her do a lot of teaching me. But one thing I would like to state at the very beginning of this—and apologies, I didn’t look up the stats; Sarina might know them—the number of books that actually earn out their advance if it’s nonfiction. For example, my book that we’re going to talk about today is nonfiction, and so I got a big advance based on a—and we’re going to talk about that. We’re going to talk numbers. It makes authors really nervous, but I think it’s important. The number of authors that actually earn out is really, really low—like, much lower than you expect. . So “earning out” can mean a couple of different things, and we’re going to talk about that today. But to set the scene, we’re going to use my book The Gift of Failure as the example for earning out. as the example for earning out. So I’ve sold a lot of books—like, this book was a success by any measure. It was on The New York Times bestseller list. I had Kristen Bell go on Instagram and say, “Buy this book, it’s so great,” and it sold out across the country. I am not complaining here; I am just saying that it makes me extremely nervous that technically I have not earned out my advance on The Gift of Failure. Again, to set the scene, The Gift of Failure was based originally—it came out of an article that went viral at The Atlantic on why parents need to let their children fail. There was a big auction for this book that lasted three whole days. It was very exciting, and the number kept going up and up and up. And I was freaking out, because now you’ve got huge expectations. I mean, I’m thrilled, but the expectations keep getting bigger and bigger. So where we ended up was Harper Books came back with the highest bid, and it was also for the editor that I was most excited to work with, Gail Winston, and it came in at $400,000, so that was wonderful. That was great. It was based on—I got five payments over five, essentially, five years, and I have not earned back that advance for my publisher. So, Sarina, what would you say to me—a writer who is stressed out because that means, you know, when they’re looking at purchasing other books like The Addiction Inoculation, I was able to sell to them, even though it’s a tough niche, that little—it’s a tough corner, that addiction corner—and they knew that this book was not going to sell as well. But on the strength of my sales of the addiction…excuse me, of The Gift of Failure, I was able to sell that book, but I hadn’t earned out. So why are they going to pay me to write another book if I hadn’t earned out?Sarina BowenIt’s such a great question. So the thing—the punch line of this episode—is we just want you to know that if you don’t earn out, you’re not a failure. And we don’t mean it in a nice way, like everybody gets a ribbon. We mean, like, you might not be a financial failure for the publisher, even though on your statement it says you still haven’t earned back your advance. And that’s because the advance that you’re paid is part of a profit-and-loss estimate that the publisher makes before they offer on a book. And just in case anybody is squishy about this—like, an advance means those royalty amounts in your contract, you’re getting paid an upfront amount, and then you have to, like, earn it back with those royalty amounts in your contract.Jess LaheyAnd for those who actually are not familiar with this at all, I don’t have to pay back the money if I don’t earn out. That’s not a thing.Sarina BowenRight. So the publisher said, “We like this book so much we are going to pay you $400,000, and we think that you will sell enough copies that we will be in the black on our P&L statement.” But they never show us the P&L statement. So let’s just say that they had a P&L statement that shows that they’re profitable on this book even if you only sell 70,000 copies—but you’ve sold over twice that amount. So when I worked on Wall Street, I was given a bonus every year, and the bonus made everybody feel like, “This is the amount of money that you’re worth.” But what it really was is “This is the amount of money we have to pay you so you won’t quit and go work for somebody else.” And an advance is exactly the same thing—it’s how much do we have to pay you to win, but also in a way that looks okay on our profit-and-loss estimate of what this book can do. And of course, you mentioned that we don’t have good data about how many books earn back their advances. And the truth is, even if you and I had done a deep dive prior to sitting down here today, we still wouldn’t know, because nobody publishes these numbers. And the only time that you get a glimpse of them is when some publishing executive is on the stand in a court case about, say, whether two Big Five publishers can merge.Jess LaheyGotcha.Sarina BowenAnd then, yeah. And then they tend to say various things—like, they’ll give a statistic, and then everybody in publishing will be, like, nailed to the transcript of this court case to see, like, how is everybody doing in there? Because, you know, nobody—nobody tells you. Nobody is obligated, even in a publicly traded company, to give these precise statistics about how often people earn out.So earning out has some pros and cons. Like, so you said that writing this book—because you sold it on proposal, and then you had to write it, and you had this big amount of money that you had to recoup—and that is so intimidating. And I’ve been in this same situation. I sold The Five Year Lie to HarperCollins two years before that book was published, and I still had to write the book, because that book was actually also sold on proposal.Jess LaheyWhich doesn’t happen very often, dear listener. Do—Sarina BowenThat’s rightJess Lahey—not think that you can sell your first fiction on proposal. That’s not how it works.Sarina BowenRight—that will never happen. But, um, this was my, like, 50th novel, and then you can sell on proposal. But anyway, I also had to write something in a new genre with my own expectations built in, and that’s scary. But the reason we need this fear—the value of this fear—is that both of our publishers were invested in our success. If I had been offered a low advance and I had taken this deal, then, um, sure, I would be less stressed out about the success of the book—but so would my publisher. The more skin they have in the game, the better they’re going to see your project through.Jess LaheyRight.Sarina BowenAnd that is valuable. So a little bit of our fear—or, okay, fine, a lot of it—is actually doing things for this calculation that we need, that we require.Jess LaheyAnd to decode that—what that can often mean is marketing budget. So The Gift of Failure had, you know, the amount that they’re willing to invest, including the number of hours my publicist at Harper is willing to invest in publicizing this book, comes down to how invested they are in the book. And given the number that I got, they’re pretty invested in this book. And, you know, I was pretty happy with some of the publicity stuff. And also, on top of that, you know, I requested bookmarks and postcards and all that sort of stuff, and I requested to have as many as they could afford in my marketing budget shipped to me. And honestly, for The Gift of Failure I’m just now finally running out of postcards, and I use a lot of those postcards still in my marketing. And they also have been in communication since then—been really appreciative of how much I invest in the publicity. But I will say, I knew—I knew when I was old news and that they were no longer really going to invest in my publicity—when the next big thing, the next big book that was coming out from Harper with this publicist, when I started accidentally getting that author’s emails about, you know—it was a total mistake, and it was very funny—but I’m like, oh, yeah, I see, I’m done now. This is—they’re on to the next book. Which was fine. But again—and we’ve said this a million times—no one can market you better than you can market you. So that was fine with me, and I also knew that that would be a big role for me with this book. But, yeah, the marketing budget is very much factored in when you look at how much they’re willing to spend on you.Sarina BowenYeah. So we should say a couple more things about [unintelligible]. One is, everybody’s first statement from the publisher—whether that comes quarterly, semi-annually, or annually—is always a little bit rattling, because they’re hard to read. They just are. Like, I don’t know any publisher who has, you know, beautiful, easy-to-read statements. And so the befuddlement one can have on there is, you know, not to be underweighted. But also, if you—so, we have this double-edged sword. Like, we want a big advance because it reduces our risk, and it increases the publisher’s risk, so they’re going to invest in it. But, as you said before, then if you don’t perform—like, if you dramatically underperform your advance—and this happens in publishing all the time—it will be maybe a little bit harder for you to sell the next book, and maybe you have to switch publishers, because maybe idea number two is really fantastic and more saleable. Then you have to find somebody with a clean slate—like, that they see the value of your new idea. They’re not intimidated by the fact that your first book didn’t sell a kajillion copies. And, you know, that editor doesn’t have, like, a wound from having, you know, failed the first time. So these things happen.Jess LaheyBecause—keeping in mind that that editor has to go, you know—any editor that wants to acquire your book has to go before, you know, their peers, their colleagues, and say, “I really want to buy this book, and here’s how much I think it’s worth, and there’s going to be an auction.” And then, you know, I could imagine that an editor might feel like a bit of a doofus if their book doesn’t perform the way they’ve predicted in front of that room of their colleagues.Sarina BowenBecause they would. You know, it’s just not fair for them to come back and say, “Yeah, we’ll give you the same schlubby advance on the second one.” So, so there’s emotions on either side of this. And one thing about earning out that can happen is that sometimes, if you have a two-book deal, you will have a clause in your contract that calls for joint accounting between those two books. And this is a clause that I always ask to be taken out, because that means if you didn’t earn out—if you earned out the first book but not the second one—then they’re going to hold on to your royalties until you’ve earned out enough money to cover both advances. And that’s obviously unfavorable to the author.Jess LaheyYeah, you also reminded me that there were some things that happened with The Gift of Failure, where, for example, I narrated my audiobook. And I think—I think that my flat fee for narrating that audiobook went against my advance.Sarina BowenAdvance. Mmhmm.Jess LaheyYeah, I didn’t get a check, like a flat-out check for that. It went against my advance. And I think the same for my Spanish edition. I think that because the Spanish edition was also part of Harper—it’s Harper Español—that that went against my advance as well, as opposed to, you know, “Here’s another chunk of money for the Spanish edition.”Sarina BowenWell, that was actually a really unusual scenario for you, because you sold North American rights generally on this book, right?Jess LaheyYeah. Mmhmm.Sarina BowenIn English. You sold English only? Or World English? That would mean that…Jess LaheyActually, I didn’t sell World English. It was just North American, because there’s the different North American short books, and there’s—Sarina BowenRight. Okay.Jess Lahey—the British version.Sarina BowenSo North American rights means that your advance really only covers those books that sell in the U.S. and Canada and territories of the U.S.—and sometimes the Philippines, for reasons that nobody has ever explained to me. But if you’d sold world rights instead, you would have the entire world to help you pay down that advance and then start earning royalties. And I did have a moment last year where I asked my agent, like, “Why didn’t we sell world rights on this book?” Because now we’re scrambling to place the book with a U.K. editor. And she said—and it made so much sense—she said, “Because if the U.K. branch of your publisher is not fired up about the book and is not motivated, then we won’t get the placement you want anyway.”Jess LaheyGot it!Sarina BowenLike, it won’t work. And of course, that made lots of sense—like, they’re busy acquiring titles that they feel they can sell in the U.K. to their audience, and they know best about that. So I needed to be reminded why that is. But, yeah—so lots of things can go against our advances. And the point of today’s discussion was to make sure that you understand that there’s an emotional load for the way that we do these things. And your publisher might be very happy with you even if you didn’t earn out your advance.Jess LaheyI can tell you, though, where The Gift of Failure is concerned—I have earned out in one spot, and that is China. In China, I have earned—not only did I earn out, they decided to renew my contract early because they were so pleased with sales there. So that’s good. I do get small royalty checks for my Chinese version, so yay!Sarina Bowen(Laughing)Jess LaheyGiddy up.Sarina BowenGiddy up.Jess LaheyAll right, have we covered everything we want to cover on this topic?Sarina BowenWe have, and we hope that our listeners are out there getting the best advances they can and then not worrying about them too much.Jess LaheyExcellent. I like that answer. And until next time, everyone, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe

Kate Rope’s new book, Strong as a Girl is not only well-written and thoroughly researched, it includes the voices of so many girls and young women. In this week’s episode, Jess talks with Kate about how she managed to secure interviews with these girls, get permission to use their voices, and manage the paperwork around all those releases. Find Kate via her website: Kate Rope, @kateropewriter on Instagram, and her Substack Strong as a HumanTranscript Below!Jess LaheyHey, it’s Jess Lahey. If you’ve been listening to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast for any length of time, you know that, yes, I am a writer, but my true love—my deepest love—is combining writing with speaking. I get to go into schools, into community organizations, into nonprofits, into businesses, and do everything from lunch and learns to community reads to just teaching about the topics that I’m an expert in, from the topics in The Gift of Failure, engagement, learning, learning in the brain, cognitive development, getting kids motivated, and yes, the topic of over-parenting and what that does to kids’ learning—two topics around The Addiction Inoculation, substance use prevention in kids, and what I’ve been doing lately that’s the most fun for me, frankly, is combining the two topics. It makes the topic of substance use prevention more approachable, less scary when we’re talking about it in the context of learning and motivation and self-efficacy and competence and, yes, cognitive development.So if you have any interest in bringing me into your school, to your nonprofit, to your business, I would love to come—you can go to jessicalahey.com, look under the menu option “Speaking,” and go down to “Speaking Inquiry.” There’s also a lot of information on my website about what I do. There are videos there about how I do it. Please feel free to get in touch, and I hope I get to come to your community. If you put in the speaking inquiry that you are a Hashtag AmWriting listener, we can talk about a discount, so that can be one of the bonuses for being a loyal and long-term listener to the Hashtag AmWriting Podcast. Hope to hear from you.Multiple SpeakersIs it recording? Now it’s recording. Yay! Go ahead. This is the part where I stare blankly at the microphone. Try to remember what I’m supposed to be doing. All right, let’s start over. Awkward pause. I’m going to rustle some papers. Okay. Now, one, two, three.Jess LaheyHey, welcome to Hashtag AmWriting. This is the podcast about reading all the things—short things, long things, poetry, nonfiction, fiction, articles, queries, book proposals. This is the podcast about writing all the things, but more than anything else, this is the podcast about getting the writing done, getting the work of being a writer done. I’m Jess Lahey. I’m the author of The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation, and you can find my work at The Washington Post and The New York Times and The Atlantic and lots of other places.And today I have a guest—a guest I’m very, very excited about. So today I’m going to be talking with Kate Rope about a topic that I have wanted to cover for a while and have not had exactly the right person to cover the topic with. Kate Rope is a writer. She is a journalist, and she’s had articles at a lot of the same places that I have, actually—like The New York Times, The Washington Post, and things like that. She wrote a wonderful book called Strong like a Mother [Strong as a Mother], and her new book, Strong like a Girl [Strong as a Girl], is coming out in October—October 14, to be precise. And thank you so much, Kate, for coming on the podcast.Kate RopeOh, I’m so excited. It’s a dream come true. It’s—it’s literally like leveling up in my world.Jess LaheyOkay, so help me remember where we actually first met? It could have been through Jess Foundation people, because those people in common.Kate RopeNo, no, it was before then. I think I just sought you out for—for being a source for a couple of articles.Jess LaheyOh, okay.Kate RopeJust because of having read your The Gift of Failure.Jess LaheyNormally what I do—what I need, what our computers need now—is a function called “How do I know blah, blah, blah?” Because there are all these people that, like, we know them from online, or I know them because I’ve used them as a source somewhere for some article. So I got on my computer, and I looked in my little, you know, search terms, and I put your name in, and I was looking for, like, our earliest contact, and I couldn’t find it. But I think our computers need, like...Kate RopeI think it was a phone call.Jess LaheyHow—oh, okay, well, there you go.Kate RopeI think that’s why there’s no record of it.Jess LaheyWell, either way, I’m so glad we’re talking now. I love, love, love your new book. I’ve been fortunate enough to read an early version of it. It’s really lovely. You ended up with a beautiful cover—I can’t wait for everybody to see it. I will be posting a picture of it in the show notes. But I wanted to talk to you—and you actually came up with this independently—but this is this topic I’ve wanted to talk about for a long time: about interviewing kids specifically. Like, logistically, there are a lot of hurdles to get through when you interview kids There can be, I know, depending on, like, the when, the where, the why, and the how. But I wanted to talk a little bit about interviewing—how we interview kids, how we interview people in general, how we get permission, how we approach people. So since you had sort of this idea to begin with, I would love for you to start and talk a little bit about your book—how on earth you got access to the people you talked to in your book, and how that process went for you.Kate RopeSure. So it goes back to my first book. I will admit to having a bias—I do not like books that have case studies that open chapters, and so it’s like, “Sarah and her family could never get homework done,” and so it, you know, went for, you know, this is what they went through. And if you don’t relate to that particular story, you check out. So for my last—my last book, Strong as a Mother—I wanted to have the voices of all different kinds of moms and pregnant people, you know, sharing what their experience was, so that a reader could find some other person that had gone through what they had gone through. And so for that...Jess LaheyCan I hit pause? Can I hit pause for just one second? So my—and this is, I’m going to be talking to my Authority to Author person that I’ve been interviewing for a series that I’m doing on going from being an authority to being an author—and we talk a lot about this: like, what’s your framing narrative for the chapter? How do you create narrative? So I want to make sure at some point we talk about—so if you’re not a fan of sort of the case study approach, how do you go about thinking about creating a narrative to use to couch your data, so that it’s not just about data?Kate RopeYeah, I do have stories in there. So I might have, you know, a couple of paragraphs with a particular story that illustrates, you know, whatever we’re talking about in the chapter, but it doesn’t ground the whole chapter in one experience. So…Jess LaheyI like that.Kate RopeYeah, it’s trying to bring in different, different viewpoints. I tend to write very much, like, voice-forward. So I bring people in, and I talk about, you know, the research, but I don’t tend to be really clinical or academic. So I tend to kind of create the narrative. I bring the people’s stories in within the body of the text. But then what I did in Strong as a Mother was, at the end of each chapter, I had quotes from pregnant people and moms about whatever the topic was. So, let’s say it was a chapter on breastfeeding, or choosing how you’re going to feed your kid. I wanted the mom who said, “I never wanted to breastfeed. I went to the hospital; I put a sign on my door that said, ‘Do not bring a lactation consultant in here. I know what I’m doing. I’m doing formula.’”I wanted the woman who was like, “Breastfeeding is all I ever wanted to do in my whole life, and it just didn’t work, and I had to stop. And it was heartbreaking, but I got through it.” I wanted the woman who was like, “This was the one thing that worked out for me, and I loved it, and I did it till my child was four.” Because then, at the end of the chapter, you’ve read this whole chapter on making choices about feeding your child that feel good to you and that work for you—and adjusting if life makes it not possible to live out that particular choice. And then I wanted them to see people who had done it, and who’d gotten through it. So that’s the way I did Strong as a Mother. And it was funny—I had so many in the end, and the only ding I got in Publishers Weekly was that they wanted more. But we had to cut so many, because otherwise the book would have been, like 600 pages long.Jess LaheyWhich is interesting, because then I have to—I, you know, if I’m going to go with, as I did both in The Gift of Failure and The Addiction Inoculation, I chose one framing narrative. So I have to be really careful about, how can I make this framing narrative as general, as appealing to as many people as possible? Because it is going to be a very thin slice, no matter what you do. But how you generalize that for people who may be experiencing something different is—it’s a hard thing to do. So that’s a really interesting choice to have to make—to say, okay, I’m not going to focus it on this one story versus, I’m going to give lots of different ways to people. I like thinking about that.Kate RopeIt’s sort of like if…Jess LaheyBecause I get stuck in…Kate RopeYou went to a moms’ group…Jess LaheyThe way I do things…Kate RopeYeah, it’s—you had went to—then why do you go to a moms’ group early on when you have your baby? So that you don’t feel like a weirdo and somebody else is going through the same thing. So I kind of wanted this to be, like, three pages of a moms’ group for, you know, perinatal depression and anxiety, breastfeeding, sex, co-parenting—whatever the topics were. I wanted them to feel like they had entered a room with peers who were open to all the different experiences, you know, one can have when going through, you know, trying to make or bring a child into your home. You know?Jess LaheyI like that. Thank you for opening my eyes to a different way. It’s just what you’re used to, I suppose, and how you want to go about entering into your storytelling.Kate RopeYeah, and so for Strong as a Girl, that didn’t feel quite the right way to go. So what I wanted to do was—and I’m a journalist, so I don’t even have, like you have—you’re a teacher, you’re trained. I am trained as a journalist. So all of the, you know, there’s some stories and advice that come from me living out my experience—me mostly doing things that I’ve learned from experts—but most of the actual advice and tips and everything is coming from experts. So I know I’m going to interview experts—experts for the book—and then I wanted to interview girls themselves, because I wanted to hear from them. What do they want? You know, basically, you know—this book is written for caregivers and parents of kids who identify as girls, elementary-age kids who identify as girls, so big, five to twelve. And you know, you can talk with ten and up, I would say. But, you know, five, six, seven, eight was not necessarily where I was going to get my, you know, sort of most self-reflective comments on what helps them and what doesn’t.Jess LaheyAlthough you do get great—you do get great quotes from kids those age.Kate RopeAgreed, agreed, agreed. So I went with, you know, kind of, you know, middle, upper elementary, middle school, all the way up through college. And I gathered focus groups together—and we can talk about why I did focus groups—but the whole point, the whole—what I wanted in the book was girls and young women reflecting on their childhoods: what helps them, what were the things that people in their lives did that were really helpful to them, and what were the things that they wish they had done differently or didn’t have access to? So that it was literally like—the way I would start off the focus groups is, I’d be like, “Pretend you’re talking to an auditorium of caregivers, and you get to tell them exactly the best way to do this job, like the way that’s going to help you the most to just— I want to know those things.” So for that...Jess LaheyOkay, so let’s talk about the focus groups. Yeah, the focus groups—because I think A) brilliant, B) how on earth do you get—do you pull a focus group together? Like, it’s something that when most people hear focus groups, they think of, like, oh, you know, this is how you beta test a movie, like.Kate RopeYeah... “Do you like this toilet paper?Jess LaheyYou do a test for a movie and see what the focus group thinks. Right? Exactly. How on earth do you, as a journalist, pull together a focus group? Because that’s such an incredible, valuable— and how do you select who’s going to be in your focus group?Kate RopeYeah, so I have to give—so I have several writing groups, and one of them is professors in the Education Department at Georgia State. So they all write papers and stuff, and we get together, and I write whatever I’m writing, and so—and they’re all in education, and they’re all in early education. And so they interview kids, and so they said to me right off the bat, “You have to do focus groups. You have to have groups.” Because adults, you know, typically one-on-one, you can get them to start talking. But with kids, they’re going to respond to each other, and they’re going to riff off each other and develop a rapport. But—but you can’t have too many. There were definitely some focus groups—I would say the sweet spot is maybe four to six. Six starts to get a little unwieldy, only because you can’t keep them for three hours, and they all have so much good stuff to say. And so I had focus groups that were anywhere from two people to—I think, I think I had a seven—and they were virtual, because the girls were from all over the country and young women, and I wanted them to represent different lived experiences of girls.So, you know, girls are not a monolith. You know, there are some things unique to being a female in our society—challenges, strengths, all those things—and then there are things, you know, that are unique to being a girl of color or living with a physical disability. So I wanted to talk with groups of girls who could speak to just the experience of being a girl and what helped them, and then also whatever, you know, their specific identity or lived experience was—what were the additional inputs that were helpful to them, or additional obstacles that they have ideas about how to help girls overcome. So in that case, I wrote—I reached out to organizations. So I reached out to a bunch of different organizations that work with girls of color, and I just said, “This is what I’m doing.” And literally in the acknowledgments, I say to those organizations, like, “You didn’t have to return my email, but you did,” because I just blind-emailed a bunch of organizations and said, “Here’s what I’m doing. Do you have—?” And a lot of these organizations have, like, an advisory council, or a summer camp or they just, you know, work with the same girls again and again. They have ambassador programs. So, you know, they could—they reached out to their network and said, “Who wants to do this?”And so that was one approach. Same thing with having a focus group of girls living with a physical disability—I reached out to the Disability EmpowHer Network, and they helped me connect with, in that case, I think they were mostly young women. I think they were all about college age, maybe some in high school.And then, let’s see—for neuro—I wanted a big group of girls with neurodivergence, and that I just did pretty much by word of mouth. I created Google Surveys, Google Forms saying, “I’m looking to talk with girls. This is how it’ll go,” and just sent it to everybody, all and sundry, and had caregivers respond and say, “Yes, you know, my child is interested.” Same with LGBTQIA+ kids. So I basically kind of—and—and that was interesting. It was hard for me to find organizations because they are so protective of their LGBTQ youth—which I completely respect—that they don’t really like to do that. So that group, I had to kind of grassroots it, like I did with the girls living with neurodivergence. And I was very clear—and this is an important—we don’t have to do this now if you have more questions—but I definitely want to talk about the ethics and the...Jess LaheyOh, I want to definitely go into this.Kate RopeYeah, yeah.Jess LaheyThis is all really interesting.Kate RopeAnd the parameters—so, so, so my motto is, you know, in the last book was “No mothers will be harmed in the creating of this book.” In this one: “No girls will be harmed in the creating of this book.” So there—I, the only thing I want to publish is some—I want to publish something a girl is happy to see on the page. Because I’m not supporting the mental health and well-being of girls if I am sacrificing one person’s experience and well-being to make a point or whatever. So I made it very clear from the start that they were completely in control of what ended up—I recorded everything, then I chose my quotes, and then I ran them by them. They could change their mind at any time—like, basically, they had total control of what ended up in the book, including an alias or just their first name. You know, if they wanted to say, instead of saying they were from, you know, Encinitas, they wanted to say they were from Southern California. I’m also very careful, having come up as a research director and editor in magazines that I never want to have identifying information about minors. So I didn’t—I would never do a full name and a location. For instance, I would really never do a full name. It’s always just a first name or an alias, and then location in a general enough way. And that kind of depends too on what we’re talking about and how sensitive it is. So...Jess LaheyOne of the fun things that I let the kids do often was pick their own alias if they wanted to. It was a fun way—it was sort of like, “Ooh, that’s exciting, oh my gosh.” And then it turned into, like, a whole project—like, “Oh my gosh, what’s my name going to be?” That was kind of fun too. But I love—I think for a lot of people, especially people who have never done this before, it sounds completely overwhelming to try to ethically get the voices of kids into a book. And it can be easier to, you know, just sort of avoid talking to them directly—which is the problem with a lot of books about kids. Or even when you go into education, and I’m like—every once in a while, I’m like, “Or we could just ask them.” And it seems like there’s a big block about actually talking to the kids themselves, because it is complicated. There are considerations that you have to hold dear to your heart if you really are working for the betterment of kids and not, as you said before—which I really like the way you articulated it—you know, you can’t harm one kid in order to get a story out to lots of others, no matter how helpful you think that story is going to beKate RopeYeah, yeah. And it sounds overwhelming, but first of all, those focus groups were the best part of doing this book. These girls had insight and humor and natural, reflexive inclusivity. And, I mean, they just made me feel better about the world every time I finished. And I mean what I mean—they, sometimes there was one that went for two hours, and that was cool. That was the group of girls who had different neurodivergences, and they got so into each other that, like, at a certain point, I just was sitting there while they were exchanging numbers and sharing what their interests were. And so, so yeah—I, it was so enjoyable, and it wasn’t that overwhelming. Because going through an organization, you’ve got someone helping you, you know, get this all together. You’ve got someone helping you distribute the waivers, because you have to have, you know, release forms signed. And, you know, I just kept a really good Google Sheet of, like, who has signed the waiver, what’s their approved name, what’s their approved quote.So, so that—I think, honestly, that’s not the hardest part. I mean, I think the other—I do try to be really efficient in other ways with my interviewing. With experts, I always do a recorded—nowadays, mostly Zoom—used to be phone interview. Because I don’t know what they’re going to tell me, right? I know what I’m interested in, but I don’t know what they’re going to tell me. With caregivers—and I also have caregiver quotes throughout Strong as a Girl—I usually want to talk to them about a particular topic. You know, “How did you first handle your daughter’s dyslexia diagnosis? How do you talk about sex with your daughter? When did you start? When she’s having really big emotions, how do you guys work through it?” So for that, I just did Google Forms, because they have—they know the answer to that question. I know what I’m looking for. I’m looking for information about specific things to get a sense of different ways families handle things, and they can just respond in a Google Form, and it’s easier than trying to get a busy, you know, parent or caregiver on the phone.Jess LaheyYeah.Kate RopeSo that was how that—so, like—Jess LaheyThat makes a lot of sense.Kate RopeThat made it less overwhelming. I sort of have three tiers of interviews.Jess LaheyHow do you go about organizing—once you have that information? I find then I have a transcript of the interview, or whatever form—I happen to like having the transcript of the interview—and I’ll underline things and flag things. How do you go about organizing? Do you organize by topic? Do you organize by age group? How—you know—what are the ways that you organize the interviews? It sounds like once you have enough of them, it can be really hard to know how you want to use what information and quotes.Kate RopeYeah, I think, I think the hardest thing is—I think I knew pretty much how I wanted to use everything. The hardest part is, like, the copy editor caught that I said one girl lived in Philadelphia in one area of the book, and then I had her in Denver in the other area. And that’s because she was in a focus group with someone from Denver. And so I can’t say I have the answer to that, because I don’t think I did it really well—but I will do better next time. I basically just—I would, I would screen the transcript shortly after the interview or the focus group, because then it was fresh in my mind, and I could sort of remember, “Oh yeah, I want to...” and then I would just highlight, like, whatever the things were that I really liked. And then I just created one master document with all the focus group quotes, you know, and then...Jess LaheyOh, nice!Kate RopeAs I’m thinking about—yeah—and then as I’m thinking about the topics—okay, now I’m in the, you know, the chapter on puberty—I’m going to go through and pull out what quotes speak to that. And I use Scrivener. I’m a huge Scrivener fan. I use one percent of what Scrivener offers. I just use the table of contents on the left so I can just plop—so then I would just plop them in there. So that..Jess LaheyYeah.Kate RopeThat was my approach, yeah.Jess LaheyI think the reason I ask that question is—I think every single writer has had that moment of, “Oh, I know someone said this really cool thing. Who was that? Where did I file it? Where am I going to find it again? It was in a study, it was on a piece of paper, I know I saw it, it had a red mark on the corner.” You know, all these problems we have with our organization—we’re never going to have, I don’t think I’m ever going to have, the perfect system—but I seem to get a little better at it with each mistake I make.Kate RopeYeah, yeah. I sent—I sent, I sent the wrong quote to one of the focus group participants—to her mom. She was the, you know, the conduit—and she said back, she was like, “Goldie—pretty sure she did not say that in the— they did not say that in the focus group.” And I was like, “Really?” And I went through, and sure enough, it was somebody else. And then I reached out to them—“Oh, yeah, I said that.” Because I’d already checked quotes with them. So that’s another reason for checking quotes.Jess LaheyYeah. I also love the idea of making sure that your subject knows that they will have the right to say, “No, I’d rather—even though I know I said that.” You know, it’s—with a kid, you can’t just say, “Okay, this is an on-the-record, off-the-record sort of situation.” So before, for example, in The Addiction Inoculation, and specifically with kids like Georgia and Brian—the two kids I really featured heavily in the book—they had approval over every single thing that was going to be in the final book. And I think at one or two points, just because I felt really protective of them, I was like, “Are you sure this is how you want to say it? You realize, like, people will read this book.” I think there’s this detachment between, like, the things that come out of your mouth and the fact that it will be out there in public, and I sort of saw it partially as my job to fully make sure they understood the implications and the possible outcomes. And I know you don’t have to go that far, but for me, I felt very protective of the kids and wanted to make sure that ethically, everything was on nice, solid footing.Kate RopeYeah, absolutely. And, I mean, the journalism you and I do is not—we are not reporting on politicians who are trying to spin stuff afterward, you know? We’re—we’re telling stories of real people to help real people. So, you know, on the record, off the record, it’s not so—you know, it’s—it’s you have control. And also, obviously, you and I both, like, parent and write from a consent point of view. And so if I’m saying in my book, you know, that a person in a physical interaction can—has—the ability and right to call it off at any time, right?Jess LaheyYep.Kate RopeThen the same goes for their participation in my book.Jess LaheyYeah, absolutely, absolutely. So first of all, one of the things I really loved about this book was the multitude of stories—the multiple angles on the girl experience—and the fact that there wasn’t this one experience that is this monolithic girl experience. I think, especially coming at it from a perspective of someone who is the mom of a kid who maybe doesn’t fit neatly into the box of a, you know, a stereotypical—whatever that is—girl. There’s a lot of ways you can come at this story, and in order to not alienate kids who are not having the experience of, like, whatever it is you want to refer to as a stereotypical girl experience, you have to encompass all of those stories. And I have a lot of respect for the way that you managed to really bring those stories in. So thank you so, so much. As a reader, I really, really appreciated that as well. It just made the book more interesting too, because I have a lot of moments where I’m like, “Oh, that hadn’t occurred to me,” and “That’s not my experience, but cool, now I know what someone else’s experience is.” So the book did double duty for me.Kate RopeWell, thank you. That’s awesome. And yeah—and I think, ultimately, as I think about it, like, it’s really about listening, right? Most of what I’m talking about in the book is about listening and letting the person in front of you tell you who they are. You know, that they come into this world with the raw material they need to survive, and this world throws a lot at them. And so how do you just keep them true to that experience—help them develop that sense of themselves? And that goes for, you know, any kind of experience. That goes for learning, you know, that you’re an introvert, and it’s okay if you don’t want to speak up in class. And I have a quote in the book from you, who said—and I loved it—like everyone says, “Here, let’s teach you how to speak up in class,” and you’re like, “That’s, like, one of the most high-pressure places to speak up.” Like, umm...Jess LaheyAnd listen—that was a place that, well, that was a place that I had to come to. It was—that was a painful evolution for me as a teacher, especially because I am an extrovert, and I’m used to teaching to extroverts. And so for me to learn from Susan Cain the way I did, and learn from her book Quiet, and learn from her pushing back on something I wrote once and saying, “Mm-mmm, that’s not how everyone learns. That’s not how everyone shows that they’re understanding what you’re teaching them.” So that was a painful evolution for me, and I do not take credit for just knowing that stuff—definitely...Kate RopeRight? Well…Jess LaheyThat was a hard one for me.Kate RopeThe world runs on extroverts, right? So, if you—so, if you have an introverted girl, you know it’s a balancing act of completely respecting who she is—celebrating who she is—and then also finding out where you can equip her to operate in the world in a way that helps her, given the world’s expectations. Or understanding the world. You know, in the neurodivergence section, we talked a lot about—and for all these sections—you know, if I was doing a section on, you know, girls of color, or girls with physical disabilities, it was all experts who work in those communities, caregivers whose kids are in those communities, or girls themselves from those communities, because I can’t speak to those experiences. But the people I talked to in the neurodivergence section would talk about how a lot of times parents try to protect them—like, by not telling them about their neurodivergence, or by sort of framing it as a superpower, or not talking about the difficult things. And I think it was Amanda Morin—who’s this awesome neurodivergence and inclusive-schools expert—who said, you know, “We need to teach them about the world’s expectations, not so that they can conform to them, but so that they can understand when they don’t, and advocate for themselves.” So, you know, that’s what this whole thing is about—knowing who you are, understanding a little bit about the world, so that you can be who you are—whether that is, you know, the sex you were assigned at birth, or whether that is living in, you know, a larger body, or all the things. Like, any area where the world is going to try to tack on one more reason a girl isn’t good enough—how do you equip her with, like, real faith and love for who she is? So that was important.Jess LaheySpeaking—well, speaking of neurodivergence, did you have to change anything about the way you ran your focus group or the way you did your interviews, based on the fact that you were then interviewing people with neurodivergence?Kate RopeNo, because they did that for me. They were amazing. I mean, I had one participant who was, I mean, just so eager to share everything. And early on said, “I interrupt. I interrupt all the time.” And then another participant said, “So do I. It’s really hard for me not to. I need to say the thing when I think the thing.” These girls were clearly in families where they had been supported with the right—Jess LaheyAnd empowered...Kate RopeSupported and empowered with, like, you know, the necessary school supports or whatever—but also just the understanding of themselves. And so they knew the language, and at one point, the girl who had started off the bat saying, “I interrupt,” and she wanted to show everything in her room, you know, and I just let her go. Like, I wasn’t about—I wanted to see her as who she was. I wasn’t trying to get anywhere specific with the focus group. I really let that go. But at a certain point, she said, “You know what, I can’t stop interrupting, so I’m just going to mute myself, and you’ll see me talking, because I’ll still be interrupting—but I won’t be interrupting.” And I mean, I was, like, blown away. I mean...Jess LaheyWow!Kate RopeJust the—in all the groups—the self-awareness...Jess LaheyYeah.Kate RopeThe skills they had developed, you know—and sometimes I would talk to girls who—kids who, you know, had been hurt by their experiences growing up. And I could feel that, but they had processed it. You know, maybe if, from their family of origin, they weren’t getting everything they needed, but I got to them through a mentoring organization where they were starting to get that. And so they were able to articulate what those challenges were and what they wish they had had. So it’s not that they—it was all, you know, rainbows and—and, you know, puppies, but...Jess LaheyWell, it sounds like going to…Kate RopeBut they all had incredible insight.Jess LaheyIt sounds like going to the kids also through organizations that had given them that opportunity to learn about their empowerment and to give them the language also helped you, because then again, as I said, you didn’t have to—you didn’t have to work quite so hard to help elicit some of the conversations that you needed.Kate RopeRight.Jess LaheyIt sounds like that was a really smart way to go.Kate RopeYeah, these—these kids were in those organizations, in those conversations already. You know?Jess LaheyI’ve learned some of the hardest lessons about interviewing when I’m trying to transcribe my own notes. And Tim laughs every single time I do this, because then I hear myself talking too much, and I’m like, “Oh my gosh, just shut up. Shut up. Let them talk. What the heck are you doing?” And that—I think that was one of the greatest lessons I had to learn through all of my journalism and through all of my writing these books—is sometimes you just got to shut up. And that’s why I think having these other kids available in the focus groups—brilliant—because they’ll egg each other along, they’ll get conversations going, and you can just shut up and step back a little bit. I love that.Kate RopeYeah, and they’ll—they’ll, you know, in that particular focus group, the one girl who was interrupting a lot, another one was starting to have difficulty with it, and she was so respectful in how she said it. She said, “I feel differently than you do, and it’s hard for me to think when you’re talking so much.” And maybe it was after that that she said, “Okay, I’ll mute myself.” But they were expressing these things to each other in the most kind and direct and empowered ways. But I’m a huge talker, as you can already tell on this podcast, and I do talk too much. And so, I mean, literally every focus group opens with me, like, blathering on about what I’m doing, and then me eventually saying, “You know, I’m going to shut up and you guys talk.”Jess LaheyIt was also big—it’s a big thing that happened in my teaching, as well, when I let them sort of lead class a little bit more, and I got to step back and just sort of watch them do their thing. I learned way more about them. They learned way more from each other. And it was—it worked all the way around. So, is there anything else you wanted to share with us about the interviewing process for this book? I mean, you have so much experience in interview space, and I love that you’re just talking and talking, because I’m actually learning a ton from you.Kate RopeOh, thanks. That means a lot, because I’ve learned so much from you. I have your book right here. I’ve got my, like—my “best of.” So…it was difficult to—I got men. I did, I did get some dads, but it was difficult. And if I were doing this book again, or if I do a similar book, I’ll really—you know—it’s harder. There aren’t organizations. There aren’t super-active Facebook groups of dads, you know, but it’s growing. There’s a lot more attention paid. And so I will definitely start out earlier thinking about what are the harder people to reach, and I’m going to prioritize reaching out to them. So it’s not like, “Oh God, I got to turn this book in, and okay, I heard from five fathers, and that’s just going to have to be good enough,” you know?Jess LaheyThat’s a really good point. I’ve actually done a lot of thinking about ways to access more fathers as well. And I was thinking, okay, maybe you could come at it from the influencer angle, or the—you know, that kind of thing. It is tougher, especially in the education space. And there are lots of conversations in education about how do we make it clearer to fathers that they are really and truly invited into education in a way that traditionally it’s just been the moms. And it has been—it’s been tougher, but I think it’s really valuable and really worth doing. So I’m so glad you brought that up.Kate RopeYeah, and as we’re talking about it, I’m thinking focus groups could be really good for that. I mean, it’s hard—it’s hard to get adults available at the same time. It was hard to get kids available at the same time. But it’s—you know, I don’t want to throw men under the bus, but like—like kids, they might do better sparking each other’s ideas...Jess LaheyYeah, absolutely.Kate Rope…than having to just make it up from whole cloth when you’re asking them. And, you know, I think people—they get nervous. They think this is like a permanent record, or, you know, it’s like those—you know, those old-timey photographs of people who are like, “This is the record of this moment of our lives.” And so, you know, I did the same thing with caregivers that I— I mean, mostly I did Google Forms with caregivers, but I did interview some on the phone or in person, and I said the same thing to them: “You’re in charge of what goes in this book.” You know?Jess LaheyLove it. I absolutely love it, and you’ve written a really powerful book. You’ve written a really wonderful and eloquent book. I’m really excited to be able to take it around and hold it up and say, if you want to read a book about, you know, girls and parenting girls and taking care of girls and raising girls, here’s a new book that I really, really recommend. So thank you so much for writing the book. It was a pleasure to read—it really was.Kate RopeThank you. That means—you have no idea. I mean, just even coming on this podcast is, like I said, leveling up. It’s like, you know, I remember reading and meeting you guys for the first time at Mom 2.0 when my book was coming out, and I had no idea what I was doing. I still think I wouldn’t know what I was doing if I went to a thing like that again. But, like, I’m just not a networker. Worship is a strong word, but definitely looking up to you guys, you know? And listening to the podcast, you know, every episode—and then I’m like, “I’m going to be on it.”Jess LaheyWell, if people want to learn more about you, where could they go to do that?Kate RopeYes, my website is katerope.com. I’m on Instagram.Jess LaheyA lovely website. I was there just earlier today. It’s a lovely website.Kate RopeI am very happy with Booyah Creative—Kayleen Mendenhall, who designed it—@kateropewriter on Instagram. And I have a Substack, Strong as a Human. You’ll find me any of those places.Jess LaheyOh, I love that.Kate RopeAnd Strong as a...Jess LaheyWe will put you—all of your stuff—yep, we’re going to put the cover in the show notes; we’ll put all the links in the show notes. And I’m just really grateful to you. Thank you so much for taking time to come on the show, and for everyone else, you know how it goes... Until next week, keep your butt in the chair and your head in the game.NarratorThe Hashtag AmWriting Podcast is produced by Andrew Perrella. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output, because everyone deserves to be paid for their work. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit amwriting.substack.com/subscribe