Buy the Numbers

There's $35.8 million sitting in a federal fund built to pay manufacturers for hiring and training apprentices, and most shop owners have never heard of it. It pays $3,500 per apprentice. It's first come, first served. And when the money runs out, it's gone. That's the American Manufacturing Apprenticeship Incentive Fund, or AMAIF, and it's what we dug into on this episode. Phil Hanke is back in the co-host seat and he brought Abby Mataya, who leads CLA's state and local business incentives team, to walk through exactly how it works. Here's the part I want you to hear. This is not a tax credit you'll see on a form next April. It's a pay for performance incentive payment. You hire an apprentice into a registered apprenticeship program in a qualifying advanced manufacturing occupation, you keep them 90 days, you do some light compliance reporting, and the money gets wired to you. It covers more than 120 occupations, it works for new hires and for incumbent employees you're upskilling, and there's no company too small. One apprentice qualifies. Phil ran the numbers, and at $30 an hour you're recovering roughly 5% of a year's compensation for a 90 day commitment. Ten apprentices is $35,000 straight to your bottom line, and if you're trading at a four times multiple, that's $140,000 of enterprise value you just created out of money you were spending anyway. A lot of these programs go unclaimed because nobody applies. If your tax provider isn't bringing incentives like this to you, that's a signal. Phil was polite about it. I wasn't. Go find a provider who will. What's Covered in this Episode (0:00) $3,500 per eligible apprentice, and why it's an incentive payment rather than a tax credit (1:25) Get to know Abby Mataya from CLA's state and local business incentives team (4:35) AMAIF explained: the American Manufacturing Apprenticeship Incentive Fund, backed by $35.8 million in federal funds (5:45) Registered apprenticeship programs: Build one in house or partner with a sponsor? (6:55) Why we created Hire MFG Leaders (and why you should use it) (7:24) More than 120 advanced manufacturing occupations qualify for the AMAIF (8:06) What do you get through AMAIF? How does the program work? (10:17) What recapturing $3,500 per hire does to your enterprise value (14:05) How to apply for the AMAIF and what you have to report (16:58) State workforce training grants and state run apprenticeship incentives (18:22) Why you should head to Elevate powered by AMT and WIM at IMTS (19:17) Stacking incentives: a state internship credit, a local workforce grant, and this federal fund on top (22:57) The "I'm too small for that" myth, and why some of this money never gets claimed at all (26:09) If your tax provider isn't bringing these opportunities to you, go find one who will (27:53) You've hit your 90 days with your apprentice: now what? (29:54) Learn how Navu delivers reliable, accurate answers in real time (31:07) What turnover actually costs, from lost capacity to recruiting spend Resources Mentioned The American Manufacturing Apprenticeship Incentive Fund (AMAIF) State Apprenticeship System List Check out the Elevate conference powered by AMT and Women in Manufacturing Hire MFG Leaders Navu.co/MakingChips Explore CLA's incentives and tax credit resources at CLAConnect.com Connect with Abby Mataya and Phil Hanke Connect with Abby Mataya on LinkedIn Connect with Phil Hanke on LinkedIn Browse the CLA resources page for articles spanning incentives, tax, and manufacturing at CLAConnect.com

You spend money on a website, LinkedIn posts, maybe some email and a trade show booth, and then you ask the question every owner asks: is any of this actually working? For most of us the honest answer is a gut feel. The machines are cutting chips, so marketing must be doing its job. That is not data, and on this episode I wanted real, practical advice on how to know. So I brought in Brendon Forrest from Gorilla 76, cohost of The Manufacturing Marketer, to walk through it with me. Brendon's whole world is building and running marketing programs for manufacturers, and he came with a list of nine metrics that turn marketing from a guessing game into a set of numbers you can manage the same way you manage scrap rate or on-time delivery. Along the way we get into the difference between a marketing qualified lead and a sales qualified lead, why you should probably count deals instead of dollars, and how to back into a marketing goal from your growth number. I also come clean about something a lot of you will recognize. For years my CRM lived in my head, and that is exactly why good opportunities slipped through the cracks. Brendon makes the case for getting that out of your brain and into a system, and explains why speed to lead matters so much: the shop that follows up first almost always wins the deal. We close on the metrics that do not matter, the vanity numbers that make you feel good but never tie back to revenue, and a simple five-step framework you can start using today. Set a goal, capture the data, analyze it, then execute. Same as everything else we talk about on this show, because the math does not lie. What's Covered in this Episode (0:15) Welcome to Buy the Numbers, and why even a one-person shop is already a marketer (0:53) Brendon Forrest joins the show for the first time, from Gorilla 76 and The Manufacturing Marketer (3:42) The real question every owner asks: I'm marketing, but is it working? (5:01) IMTS Job Shops Workshop and Networking Reception, Tuesday September 15, a half-day built for shop pros. Register at IMTS.com (5:57) Marketing is just data gathering: It's another business function you should invest in (7:01) How marketing and sales work together as one funnel (8:48) Pipeline metrics: new contacts, marketing qualified leads, and sales qualified leads (12:34) MQL-to-SQL conversion rate (and what a low number tells you) (14:21) Revenue metrics: opportunities opened and what matters most long term (17:03) Count deals or dollars, and the lead-time problem that a CRM solves (23:14) Mike's growth math and backing into how many MQLs a month you actually need (26:38) Pinpoint whether you have a lead-gen problem or a closing problem (27:34) ProShop ERP: implement best practices shop-wide and see fast ROI (29:11) Efficiency metrics: cost per opportunity, web traffic, and how AI search is changing it (35:19) The qualitative story: green, yellow, red tracking of lead quality and why the trend matters (39:13) Verdant Capital: get pre-qualified for equipment financing before IMTS, application only, good for 90 days (40:08) CRMs: Why Brendon recommends HubSpot for small shops (45:31) The metrics that don't matter: attribution, open rates, and the 3,500 dollar IMTS badge scan (50:49) The 5 steps you need to take to hit your goals Resources Mentioned IMTS.com ProShopERP.com Verdant Capital The Manufacturing Marketer, Brendon's weekly show Industrial Marketing Summit HubSpot, the CRM Brendan recommends for small shops Connect with Brendon Forrest Connect with Brendon Forrest on LinkedIn Listen to The Manufacturing Marketer

Most shop owners never sell a business before the day they actually sell theirs. You build something for thirty years, then one phone call later you're trying to figure out what it's worth, what the buyer is really paying for, and why the number in your head doesn't match the offer on the table. The fix is simple to say and hard to do: start thinking like a buyer long before you ever plan to sell. In this episode I sat down with the deal team from CLA (Phil Hanke, Erin Mickels, and Brady Paschke), to walk through what actually moves the value of a manufacturing business. We're in the middle of a massive wave of baby boomer owners heading for the exit, and a lot of them show up ready to be done today, with no runway and no plan. That's rarely the best place to sell from. We get into the math and the art behind it. Your shop trades on a multiple of adjusted EBITDA, but where you land in the range, anywhere from two times to six in precision machining, comes down to the stuff that doesn't show up on a single line: how clean and consistent your books are, how concentrated your customers are, and how much the whole operation depends on you. If a buyer thinks they're buying a job instead of a business, you get discounted. Then there's the part that wrecks more deals than price ever does: structure. Net proceeds, not the headline number, are what actually land in your account. We talk through purchase price allocation, working capital, earn-outs, and seller financing, and why you want those conversations on the table at the letter of intent stage, not six months into diligence. And we don't skip the human side. This is usually the largest and most emotional transaction of an owner's life. We get into legacy, the arrival fallacy, and why knowing your why and your next chapter matters as much as the wire that hits your bank account. If you're anywhere from one to fifteen years out from a transition, there's something in here for you. What's Covered in this Episode (0:00) Meet the CLA crew: Phil Hanke, Erin, and Brady join Mike (3:34) Why now: a wave of boomer owners retiring with no succession plan (5:18) Readiness: a 3 to 5 year runway beats selling off a triggered event (6:40) What a buyer actually buys: your earnings, not your new machines (9:17) Cleaning up the financial house: add-backs, owner comp, related-party items (11:20) The owner-reliance question: can the business run without you? (13:40) Messy books get discounted; clean books are step one (14:52) "Am I buying a job or a business?" The buyer's real worry (18:03) The range in precision machining: 2x to 6x, and what moves it (20:02) Why size matters and enterprise value basics (23:14) The three-year rule: What you can still move late in the game (25:51) How Factur helps suppliers build a consistent sales pipeline (27:00) Step two: personal financial planning, know what you need to net (30:45) A client story: net proceeds, not headline price, got the deal done (32:34) Where deals break: purchase price allocation and working capital (35:43) Earn-outs and seller financing: bridging a valuation gap (40:50) How to get started: reflect on internal vs. external options (43:21) Build your advisor team, starting with your most trusted pro (46:53) Let Navu answer the hard questions for you (48:07) The emotional side: selling your life's work (53:36) Define your purpose before you sell Resources Mentioned Build a consistent sales pipeline with targeted outreach and a free custom report from Factur Add AI chat to your website so buyers get accurate answers in real time with Navu Explore practical manufacturing insights from CLA on profitability, automation, growth, and more at CLAConnect.com/makingchips Connect with the CLA Team Connect with Phil Hanke on LinkedIn Connect with Erin Mickels on LinkedIn Connect with Brady Paschke on LinkedIn Reach the full team and browse their resources at claconnect.com

In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sat down with Nush Ahmed and Brooke Laing for one of the more entertaining and eye-opening conversations I've had in a while. What started with jokes about generational slang and communication styles quickly turned into a serious discussion about leadership, workplace culture, and what younger generations are actually looking for in manufacturing careers. As someone who's spent decades building teams and leading manufacturing companies, I've seen firsthand how much the workforce has changed. Today, many companies have four or even five generations working side by side, each with different expectations around communication, feedback, work-life balance, and career growth. This episode dives into those differences head-on, from the "no news is good news" mentality many older generations grew up with to the constant feedback and transparency younger workers expect today. We also talked about something I think manufacturing leaders need to hear more often: younger employees want opportunity and involvement, not just a paycheck. Nush and Brooke shared stories about trade shows, networking, community-building, and why companies often miss the mark when they fail to support employees who are trying to grow professionally. Hearing how impactful events like IMTS and industry networking were to their careers reinforced something I strongly believe: if someone on your team wants to learn, connect, and represent your company, you should encourage it. This conversation challenged some of my own assumptions and reinforced others, but more than anything, it highlighted how important communication and intentional leadership are if we want to attract and retain the next generation in manufacturing. Whether you're a shop owner, manager, or someone entering the trades yourself, there's a lot in this episode that will probably sound familiar. And yes, there are still plenty of dad jokes and generational roasts mixed in along the way. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:00) Mike reflects on the chaotic and hilarious Toolpath Summit recording session (2:25) Nush and Brooke introduce their backgrounds in trades, manufacturing, and Sisterhood of Trades (4:08) Navigating multiple generations in today's manufacturing workforce (6:33) Breaking down Gen Z slang, communication styles, and workplace language gaps (12:02) How generational communication differences affect management and feedback (16:16) Get a free report of sales opportunities in your area from FacturMFG.com/chips (17:25) Mike shares how Hill Manufacturing intentionally built a younger leadership team (19:56) Why younger workers often feel disconnected from ownership and management (24:35) Red flags Gen Z notices immediately when evaluating employers (26:45) Why older generations often equate long hours with commitment and value (29:46) Gen Z perspectives on work-life balance, proving yourself, and career growth (32:23) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) (33:34) The debate around "family culture" in manufacturing companies (36:55) What younger workers actually value most from leadership and workplace culture (38:21) Trying to finance your equipment? Check out Verdantcc.com/numbers (38:54) The role of pay, flexibility, and opportunity in attracting younger talent (40:11) Why employers should support younger workers attending trade shows and industry events (43:10) Brooke shares her experience being laid off after taking time off for industry involvement (44:03) Stay tuned for part two: A conversation around women in manufacturing and social visibility Resources & People Mentioned Get a free report of sales opportunities in your area from FacturMFG.com/chips Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) Trying to finance your equipment? Check out Verdantcc.com/numbers Connect with the Sisterhood of Trades Sisterhood of Trades Nush Ahmed on LinkedIn Brooke Laing on LinkedIn Sisterhood of Trades on LinkedIn Sisterhood of Trades on Instagram Sisterhood of Trades on TikTok Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on LinkedIn Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on Apple + Spotify Audio Production and Show Notes by - PODCAST FAST TRACK

If you're like most shop owners, HR, payroll, and benefits are necessary evils—important, but far from the reason you got into manufacturing in the first place. Yet those "back-office" functions can quietly drain your time, introduce risk, and even limit your ability to attract and retain great people. In this episode of Buy the Numbers, Mike sits down with Jon from Thrive PEO to unpack one of the most misunderstood tools available to small and mid-sized manufacturers: the Professional Employer Organization (PEO). What starts as a conversation about payroll quickly expands into a broader discussion about risk management, employee benefits, compliance, and how to build a business that can punch above its weight class. They break down common myths—like "we're too small" or "it's just outsourced payroll"—and reveal how PEOs actually create leverage. From accessing Fortune 500-level benefits to removing administrative burdens and reducing liability, this episode reframes HR from a cost center into a strategic advantage. But beyond the numbers, this conversation is really about focus. What happens when you reclaim hours every week? What could you do if you stopped worrying about compliance, payroll taxes, and benefits administration—and started reinvesting that time into growth, people, and profitability? If you've ever felt stretched thin trying to manage everything yourself, this episode might just introduce the "easy button" your business didn't know it needed. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:00) How PEOs give small businesses access to large-company benefits and pricing (2:52) What a PEO is and how it consolidates HR, payroll, and benefits (6:00) Real-world example of fragmented HR functions vs. a unified PEO solution (8:07) Myth: "We're too small for a PEO" and why size doesn't matter (11:33) Leveraging pooled buying power to offer better, more affordable benefits (14:57) Breaking down the "too expensive" myth with real financial logic (17:14) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) (18:11) The three pillars of HR within a PEO: compliance, support, and technology (19:55) Using PEOs as a resource for handling sensitive employee situations (22:31) Enhancing employee experience through onboarding and HR tech (23:39) Real example: outdated employee policies and the risk of non-compliance (25:39) Constantly evolving employment laws and the challenge of staying compliant (27:11) Integrating HR systems with quality management and compliance requirements (29:38) Get a free report of sales opportunities in your area from FacturMFG.com/chips (30:46) Opportunity cost: what business owners could do with time saved (34:04) Hidden costs: liability, lawsuits, and compliance risks (36:20) Expanding into retirement benefits and 401(k) access through PEOs (39:16) Quality of life improvements for owners and leadership teams (41:02) Why you need to have a conversation with Verdant Commercial Capital (41:41) How to evaluate and choose the right PEO provider (44:34) Payroll tax risks and real-world horror stories for small businesses (46:56) Cash flow challenges and how PEOs stabilize payroll-related expenses (49:53) Key criteria: people, processes, and platform when selecting a PEO (53:21) How to connect with Jon to explore Thrive PEO for your business (55:16) Final takeaway: using a PEO to "punch above your weight" in talent and growth Resources & People Mentioned MakingChips Seasons: Small Shop Owners Can Thrive with a PEO, 349 Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) Get a free report of sales opportunities in your area from FacturMFG.com/chips Why you need to have a conversation with Verdant Commercial Capital NAPEO.org Connect with Jon Scoggins Thrive PEO Connect on LinkedIn Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on LinkedIn Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on Apple + Spotify

What actually makes leadership work in a manufacturing environment? Is it KPIs, lean systems, and dashboards? Or is it something far more human? In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sit down with Jason Woodard, COO of Geislinger Corporation and author of Manufacturing Leadership That Works, to unpack the leadership principles that drive real operational performance. While the conversation touches on KPIs, accountability, and operating cadence, the foundation is surprisingly simple: trust. Jason argues that before you can improve numbers, you have to earn credibility with your team through transparency, vulnerability, and consistency. The discussion explores the common traps leaders fall into, especially believing they're being kind by avoiding difficult conversations. In reality, that avoidance slowly erodes culture, drives away high performers, and lowers organizational standards. Jason shares practical examples of balancing empathy with accountability, and how clarity of expectations is the key to holding teams responsible without becoming the "jerk boss." From there, the conversation moves into operational discipline. Jason walks through the core KPIs every manufacturing business should track, why safety-quality-delivery-cost is the right order, and how leading indicators often reveal problems long before financials do. He also explains how daily, weekly, and monthly meeting cadence builds alignment and eliminates surprises. This episode blends leadership philosophy with actionable operational structure. Whether you're leading five people or five hundred, the takeaway is clear: strong culture drives strong numbers, and both require intentional leadership. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:00) The overarching theme leaders should take away from Jason's book (2:00) Learn more about Jason Woodard and Geislinger Corporation (5:19) An overview of Jason's book Manufacturing Leadership That Works (10:17) Why trust is the foundation of leadership and business performance (14:58) An investment in ProShop ERP is an investment in your business (16:38) What is the biggest lie leaders tell themselves about performance issues? (21:23) How to balance empathy, grace, and accountability with employees (26:06) Why we created Hire MFG Leaders (and why you should use it) (26:37) Why clear expectations must come before accountability (32:03) What KPIs should manufacturing leaders track across the organization? (36:30) How KPIs should cascade from leadership to the shop floor (40:21) What does an effective daily production meeting look like? (45:14) How weekly pulse meetings and monthly reviews prevent surprises (46:45) Why leaders should "just start" building an operating cadence (48:50) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) (49:30) What numbers quietly kill profitability if you don't track them (52:07) Where to find the book and how teams can use it for development Resources & People Mentioned An investment in ProShop ERP is an investment in your business Why we created Hire MFG Leaders (and why you should use it) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) Datanomix Connect with Jason Woodard Manufacturing Leadership That Works Geislinger Corporation Buy 10 or more copies for your team and get two 30 minute calls with Jason (reach out on LinkedIn) Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on LinkedIn Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on Apple + Spotify

Most of the time on Buy the Numbers, we focus on revenue growth, margin improvement, cash flow strategy, or capital investments. But in this episode, we turn our attention to something many manufacturers rarely question: utility expenses. Electricity. Gas. Water. Sewer. Waste. For most of us, these bills show up, we pay them, and we move on. They're viewed as fixed costs of doing business. But what if they're not as fixed as we think? In this episode, I'm joined by Lori Demeyer and Leticia Lawson from CliftonLarsonAllen to talk about utility assessments — what they are, how they work, and where manufacturers may be leaving real money on the table. We discuss exemption certificates, rate classifications, time-of-use billing, meter configurations, and why businesses in certain states may have more opportunity than they realize. Most importantly, we walk through the process and risk profile so owners can decide if it's worth exploring. If you've ever assumed your utility bills are simply "the cost of doing business," this conversation may change how you think about one of the most overlooked lines on your P&L. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:00) Nearly $1M in utility savings: what's possible over multiple years (1:10) Introducing Lori Demeyer and Leticia Lawson from CLA (3:55) What a utility assessment actually is and how it works (7:37) Manufacturing exemptions and how they apply to utilities (9:59) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) (10:40) Common billing errors, expired exemptions, and missed documentation (13:53) Rate classifications, multiple meters, and usage breakdowns (18:18) Incentives, business riders, and time-of-use rate opportunities (22:39) Get a free report of sales opportunities in your industry from facturmfg.com/chips (23:45) Who should consider a utility review and ideal spend profiles (26:36) State-by-state complexity and why California and the Northeast stand out (31:39) What the review process looks like (30–45 days, minimal client lift) (36:19) What happens if savings are identified and how implementation works (38:41) Real-world savings examples: six-figure and seven-figure impact (42:13) Why utility assessments are typically low-risk and contingency-based (45:00) How ProShop can help you achieve on-time delivery Resources & People Mentioned Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) Get a free report of sales opportunities in your industry from facturmfg.com/chips How ProShop can help you achieve on-time delivery Connect with Lori and Leticia CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) Connect with Lori Demeyer on LinkedIn Connect with Leticia Lawson on LinkedIn Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on LinkedIn Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on Apple + Spotify Audio Production and Show Notes by - PODCAST FAST TRACK

Quality is often treated like a cost center in manufacturing. Something we have to do to satisfy customers, auditors, or certifications. But in my experience, quality is much more than that. It's one of the biggest drivers of cash flow, reputation, and long-term profitability in a shop. In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sat down with Mehul from Ground Control to talk through the real, often hidden, cost of quality. Our conversation starts with a simple but critical idea: parts don't get paid for unless the paperwork is right. You can machine a perfect part, ship it on time, and still watch payment get delayed weeks or months because an inspection report or FAI is missing or incorrect. That reality reframes quality documentation from "extra work" into a core financial process. We walk through the full value chain of quality, from inspection planning and bubbled prints to in-process checks, scrap, rework, and external escapes. Along the way, we talk about where shops lose the most time and money, how better systems can prevent problems before they happen, and why catching issues internally is always cheaper than letting them reach the customer. This episode is a practical look at quality as prevention, protection, and leverage. If you've ever dealt with late payments, chargebacks, rejected paperwork, or rework that quietly eats margin, this conversation will change how you think about the true cost of quality. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:00) A real-world quality failure and why documentation mistakes are so costly (1:30) Meeting Mehul and the origin story behind Ground Control (5:01) Grow your top and bottom-line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) (6:12) Why quality documentation is directly tied to getting paid (12:00) Why bubbled prints are the essential first step of quality planning (14:16) Using automation and AI in quality without removing human judgment (15:15) How Factur can help you fill a qualified sales pipeline (16:21) The time and labor cost of manual quality processes (19:07) Prevention vs correction: how better planning reduces scrap and rework (20:31) The importance of in-process checks and smarter inspection strategies (23:26) Why quality education must extend beyond the quality department (24:07) Mark your calendars and come see us at IMTS 2026 (25:07) Reporting quality data with or without a fully integrated QMS (26:54) Internal vs external failures and why external escapes are far more expensive (28:55) Supplier scorecards, penalties, and long-term reputation risk (31:40) How paperwork errors can erase margins and delay cash flow (35:56) Reframing quality as a revenue generator, not just a cost center (39:56) When quality failures become safety, legal, and life-or-death issues (41:48) Quick hits: key KPIs, common myths, and no-cost improvements (44:10) How to connect with Mehul and learn more about Ground Control Resources & People Mentioned Grow your top and bottom-line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) Get a free report of opportunities in your industry from facturmfg.com/chips Mark your calendars and come see us at IMTS 2026 Connect with Mehul Shah Ground Control Connect on LinkedIn Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on LinkedIn Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on Apple + Spotify Audio Production and Show Notes by - PODCAST FAST TRACK

What changes when you're not building a business to sell, but building one to hand down? That's the question that kept coming up for me in this conversation. In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sat down with Jack Watson of HFW Industries, a fourth-generation manufacturer whose family has been operating the same business for nearly 80 years. Jack's story starts with his great-grandfather in 1947, fresh out of World War II, taking a bet on an emerging technology that would eventually become the foundation of HFW's identity. What struck me wasn't just the history, but how that long lineage still shows up in the way the business is run today, from capital investment decisions to how risk, debt, and growth are viewed through a generational lens. As someone who runs a business with a very different ownership mindset, I found this conversation especially valuable. We explored how thinking in decades instead of deal cycles changes what numbers matter most. Instead of obsessing over EBITDA multiples or exit value, Jack shared how balance sheet strength, liquidity, employee tenure, and operational durability guide their decisions. We also talked about leadership, tribal knowledge, and the responsibility that comes with stewarding a business that employs people who may spend their entire careers there. Whether you're in a multi-generation family business or not, there's a lot to learn from how Jack and his family think about building something that lasts. This episode offers a different perspective on success in manufacturing, one rooted less in transactions and more in continuity, resilience, and long-term stewardship. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:00) Jack introduces HFW Industries and its four-generation legacy (3:05) The origin story: thermal spray technology after World War II (5:53) Family involvement across generations and roles in the business (7:15) We detail how Factur can generate new opportunities for your business (8:22) Family ownership vs founder ownership: different lenses for decisions (9:50) Financial conservatism born from early hardship (12:33) How long-term thinking shapes capital investment decisions (14:23) Real estate ownership and building for generations, not exits (18:04) How to ride out downturns like 2008 and COVID with minimal debt (21:18) Why you need to meet us at the 2026 IMTS Exhibitor Workshop (23:25) The financial metrics that matter most in a family business (25:49) Tracking rework, training costs, and generational skill transfer (27:46) Bottlenecks, utilization, and strategic use of top talent (30:26) Capturing tribal knowledge before experienced employees retire (31:36) Documentation, standards, and low-volume high-mix challenges (32:47) Leadership structure across generations (38:23) Grow your top and bottom-line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) (39:00) Decoupling the business from individual family members (40:48) Building a pipeline of leaders who act like owners (42:32) Employee tenure as a point of pride and competitive advantage (44:58) What Jack hopes his great-grandfather would think today Resources & People Mentioned Get a free custom report of opportunities in your industry from facturmfg.com/chips Why you need to meet us at the 2026 IMTS Exhibitor Workshop Grow your top and bottom-line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) Connect with Jack Watson HFW Industries Connect with Jack on LinkedIn Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on LinkedIn Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on Apple + Spotify Audio Production and Show Notes by - PODCAST FAST TRACK

Innovation in manufacturing is often framed as a technology problem. Better machines, faster software, smarter automation. But in this episode of Buy the Numbers, the conversation takes a different turn, one that looks past tools and toward the human systems that actually make innovation stick. Mike Payne is joined once again by Al Whatmough, CEO of Toolpath, for a wide-ranging discussion on why innovation truly happens at the speed of communication and why trust, relationships, and shared experiences matter more than ever in an AI-driven world. From AI-powered productivity to the limitations of traditional trade shows, Al challenges conventional thinking about how the manufacturing industry learns, connects, and moves forward. The episode centers on Toolpath's upcoming Machining Summit on the Summit in Mammoth Mountain, an intentionally unconventional event designed to prioritize conversation over sales pitches and relationships over transactions. By removing the usual trade show noise, Al explains how smaller, effort-required gatherings create deeper connections, better idea exchange, and more meaningful outcomes for shop owners and industry leaders. Along the way, the conversation explores community building, trust in an age of AI, why shared meals and experiences still matter, and how manufacturers can rethink events, partnerships, and collaboration to drive real progress. This episode isn't about hype. It's about the numbers behind innovation, and why people remain the most important variable. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:39) Learn about the Machining Summit on the Summit (and why you should go) (7:28) Why you should consider attending the IMTS Exhibitor workshop (9:38) How Toolpath builds community and trust beyond the product (13:06) Why trust becomes more important as AI capabilities increase (14:10) Who the summit is built for and why decision-maker diversity matters (17:34) Selecting panelists who prioritize shared knowledge over gatekeeping (19:54) Why we love the SMW Autoblok catalog (20:35) Balancing shop owners, vendors, and leaders for broader perspective (24:18) Who should attend the Machining Summit on the Summit? (25:52) Creating access for newer and smaller shops through Fresh Tracks (28:04) Why shared experiences, meals, and even plus-ones deepen trust (31:17) Grow your top and bottom line with CLA Resources & People Mentioned Register for the Machining Summit on the Summit Why you should consider attending the IMTS Exhibitor workshop Why we love the SMW Autoblok catalog Grow your top and bottom line with CLA Connect with Al Whatmough Toolpath Connect on LinkedIn Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on LinkedIn Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on Apple + Spotify Audio Production and Show Notes by - PODCAST FAST TRACK

In this special crossover episode of Buy the Numbers, Mike Payne joins Josh McCain on The Throughput Show for a fully interactive, live conversation about one of the most misunderstood and mission-critical topics in manufacturing: cash flow. Unlike traditional episodes, this one unfolds in real time with audience questions, open dialogue, and the kind of raw, honest examples operators rarely get to hear outside of private masterminds. Josh kicks off the episode with his hallmark energy and levity—complete with an unexpected "musical" intro for guests Mike, Jon Hughes, and Phil Hanke of CLA—before guiding the conversation into the cash-flow trenches. What follows is an engaging deep dive into the issues manufacturers wrestle with every single day: slow-paying OEMs, inventory pile-ups, quoting mistakes, sneaky cash traps, and how to build the financial visibility that keeps shops alive. With decades of combined experience across shop ownership, accounting, and advisory, Mike, Jon, and Phil break down the real mechanics of cash flow: how it gets tied up, where it silently leaks, and how small changes in terms, quoting structure, deposits, and vendor relationships can immediately strengthen your financial position. Audience comments throughout the episode add even more depth, with owners openly sharing the challenges they face in today's extended-terms environment. From negotiating deposits to mastering the 13-week cash-flow model, this episode equips manufacturers with practical, battle-tested tools they can implement right away. Whether you're running a newly launched job shop or a mature precision manufacturer, this live format offers clarity, community, and real-world strategies you won't hear anywhere else. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (2:16) Why you should use Hire MFG Leaders for your next hire (2:44) Mike sets the agenda: focusing on cash flow challenges manufacturers overlook (3:26) Jon and Phil introduce CLA and their work supporting manufacturers (4:40) Overlooked cash-flow issues and common pitfalls (8:10) Real shop example: obsolete inventory discovered during due diligence (9:36) Using deposits and up-front payments to improve the cash cycle (10:02) Why negotiating terms with OEMs is difficult and what shops can control (11:42) Pricing NREs, tooling, and upfront costs correctly (12:29) The accounts-payable side: terms, discounts, and preventative maintenance (13:14) Audience discussion: asking customers to cover material or provide it (15:02) How payment terms redefine what an "ideal customer" looks like (16:13) Customer grading: A/B/C/D system for evaluating cash-flow impact (19:08) Invoice terms, timing, early-payment discounts and hidden costs (20:34) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) (21:09) Challenges with customers paying late or using credit cards (23:35) Audience question: when does factoring make sense? (25:29) Breaking down the 2%/10 Net 30 math and annualized cost (27:24) Story of a shop whose discount habits destroyed their cash cycle (30:30) Question on balancing discounts with cash availability (32:25) "Accounts Payable Olympics": gold, silver, and bronze strategies (38:10) Importance of accurate invoicing, paperwork, and timely receiving (39:51) The 13-week cash-flow tool: How to forecast receivables, payables, payroll, and fixed expenses (42:04) Achieve effective workholding with SMW Autoblok (44:05) Using the model for long-term CapEx and tax-payment planning (46:11) Real example: a $500k swing discovered through variance tracking (47:19) Why shop owners must personally review cash-flow forecasting weekly (49:00) Mike's closing message: cash flow is the lifeblood of every shop (50:37) Final thanks and episode wrap-up Resources & People Mentioned Connect with Josh McKain Connect with Phil Hanke Connect with Jon Hughes Why you should use Hire MFG Leaders for your next hire Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) Achieve effective workholding with SMW Autoblok Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on LinkedIn Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on Apple + Spotify Audio Production and Show Notes by - PODCAST FAST TRACK

When tariffs, trade policy, and cash flow collide, manufacturers are forced to think creatively—or risk being crushed by uncertainty. That's exactly where Mary Buchzeiger, CEO of Lucerne International and Lucerne Global Solutions, found herself. With skyrocketing tariffs on imported automotive components, Mary realized the solution wasn't to absorb the hit—it was to rewrite the playbook altogether. In this episode of Buy the Numbers, we dig into how Mary leveraged a little-known financial and logistical strategy: the Foreign Trade Zone (FTZ). By turning Lucerne's Michigan facility into an FTZ, she found a way to defer duties, optimize cash flow, and even open up an entirely new revenue stream helping other companies do the same. The result? Over $5 million in freed-up working capital on a single program—and more than $500,000 in annual interest savings. Mary walks us through the process of becoming an FTZ, the operational realities, and how manufacturers of all sizes can take advantage of it. From understanding customs audits to calculating real-world ROI, she breaks down the numbers in a way every manufacturing leader can understand. This episode is part strategy, part inspiration—and all about how smart, scrappy thinking can turn financial chaos into competitive advantage. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:00) Mary's philosophy: "Where there's chaos, there's opportunity" (0:54) Mary Buchzeiger's background that led to founding Lucerne International (3:04) Taking Lucerne global and learning through cycles of automotive highs and lows (4:24) How tariffs pushed her to explore creative cash-flow solutions (6:19) Why Verdant Commercial Capital is a true partner in your corner (6:50) Understanding what a Foreign Trade Zone (FTZ) is (and how Lucern got it) (6:10) How Lucerne became an FTZ and deferred millions in tariffs (9:42) The financial impact: $5 million in freed-up working capital and interest savings (11:52) Turning FTZ operations into a new business opportunity (12:31) How the certification process works — from audit to activation (15:45) Hidden savings: merchandise processing fees and weekly entry summaries (17:46) How Lucerne now helps other manufacturers with warehousing and FTZ setup (20:57) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) (21:35) Which companies benefit most: importers with long payment cycles (24:14) Lucerne's new FTZ savings calculator for manufacturers (26:08) The difference between FTZs, bonded warehouses, and free trade zones (29:14) Other ways FTZs can significantly positively impact your business (30:47) The importance of creative, adaptable thinking in manufacturing (36:35) Small financial adjustments that create massive long-term value (39:26) Check out the SMW Autoblok catalog Resources & People Mentioned Why Verdant Commercial Capital is a true partner in your corner Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) Check out the SMW Autoblok catalog Building the Entrepreneurial Mindset Connect with Mary Buchzeiger Lucerne International Connect on LinkedIn Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on LinkedIn Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on Apple + Spotify

In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sit down with Roger Atkins, President of the National Tooling and Machining Association (NTMA), to talk about the real state of U.S. manufacturing as we close out 2025. Representing more than 1,000 small and medium manufacturers nationwide, Roger brings a boots-on-the-ground perspective to the headwinds, opportunities, and trends shaping the industry right now. The conversation goes well beyond statistics to explore the forces behind them. Roger shares his preview of the MTForecast conference and NTMA's ENGAGE event, pulling back the curtain on survey data straight from job shops across America. From tariffs to labor shortages, election-year uncertainty to international trade shifts, he outlines what's truly affecting shops and where he sees signs of stability. We also dig into the "new math" of manufacturing leadership — the push to do more with the same workforce, invest in automation and workholding instead of just machines, and partner with builders and integrators to drive productivity. Roger explains why this collaboration between equipment makers and shops is more critical than ever. Finally, we focus on one of Roger's favorite topics: benchmarking. He shares a powerful story about how one shop used benchmarking against itself to command a premium sale price, underscoring why every shop owner should measure not just against the competition, but also against their own past performance. This episode is a blueprint for owners, operators, and leaders who want to thrive despite uncertainty—and who believe small manufacturers make the world go round. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (1:00) Introducing Roger Atkins and the NTMA's 1,000-member nationwide network (1:50) Previewing NTMA ENGAGE 2025 and MTForecast 2025 (3:57) Expectations vs. reality in 2025: Flat performance and sector-by-sector differences (5:32) Get 20% off your MTForecast registration with code MAK20 (6:47) Mike's oil and gas perspective—slow and steady (8:32) Why no shop can depend on one industry anymore (10:22) Tariffs, international pressures, and how uncertainty delays investment decisions (11:28) Why "just make a decision" is Roger's message to legislators (13:00) Why small manufacturers navigate uncertainty better than anyone (16:20) Forecasting equipment purchases: Bigger interest in workholding and automation (17:22) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) (18:00) Why MTForecast is where builders and users come together to collaborate (19:22) Doing more with the same workforce: automation, quick-change workholding, and better tooling (22:23) Benchmarking: why every shop should start by measuring against itself (24:40) Benchmarking surveys as a top NTMA member benefit (and a sign of top-shop discipline) (28:14) Roger's call to action: Business as usual no longer works (29:11) This is not your grandfather's industry—adapt, invest, and collaborate (31:00) Paul's Top Shops 2025 invitation and MAK20 discount code Resources & People Mentioned See us at NTMA ENGAGE 2025 in Detroit (7th-10th of October) AND MTForecast 2025 Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) Get 20% off your Top Shops registration with code MAK20 Connect with Roger Atkins Connect on LinkedIn NTMA MTForecast Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on LinkedIn Connect with Mike Payne on LinkedIn Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on Apple + Spotify Audio Production and Show Notes by - PODCAST FAST TRACK