Byron's Loom- Weaving relationships through Braver Conversations

In this episode of Byron’s Loom, Gregory Mengel is joined by Mary Lynn Hutchison for a wide-ranging conversation about polarization and how we might break out of our informational and ideological silos. Mary Lynn is a former physicist, a professional grandmother, and currently serves as Co-chair of the Central Eastern Washington Braver Angels Alliance. She leans right. Gregory is a culture worker and writer focusing on the social, political, and ecological crises of our time. He leans left. Their conversation touched on many things, from the unintended consequences of local tax schemes, to how Democrat and Republican policies do or do not help rural communities, to Covid era school closures, to the current leadership of our national public health institutions. They agreed that real progress in depolarizing our politics will require not only talking across difference but making space for viewpoint diversity within our silos. And the most important tool we have for both these tasks is listening to people, especially people directly impacted by whatever social problems are up for discussion. More to come … Get full access to Byron Odion at byronodion821766.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode Byron was joined by returning guest Kaeley Triller Harms in conversation with Abraham Lateiner. Kaeley identifies herself as a Christian feminist and accidental activist working to support women’s rights within her Conservative Christian circles and beyond. Abraham identifies as a politically progressive feminist. His recent work has primarily been focused on men, with the aim of transforming cultures of masculinity away from their traditional emphasis on coercion and dominance. He wants to cultivate a culture that sees support as a essential value for protecting all forms of life. Kaeley and Abraham tackle the following controversial question: Can (and should) the hard-won sex-based rights of women be reconciled with efforts to support people with transgender identities? Their shared aim was to explore ways to support the flourishing of all people. Get full access to Byron Odion at byronodion821766.substack.com/subscribe

SummaryIn this episode, Byron and his guests, Elizabeth Dahl and Kaeley Triller Harms, discuss the rising tide of Christian Nationalism in the Pacific Northwest, focusing on the influence of figures like Doug Wilson. They explore the way Wilson and other Christian leaders in this movement are using their positions of authority to manipulate followers into accepting a toxic teaching that demonizes empathy. They explore the potential for abuse within authoritarian, high-control religious institutions, as well as the impact of Christian Nationalist leadership on church communities throughout the region and the country.Cults and Christian Nationalism DiscussionByron introduces Elizabeth and Kaeley for a discussion on cults and Christian nationalism. Elizabeth, a staff member at Braver Angels, explains that the organization works to depolarize political culture by facilitating healthy conversations between people with differing views. Kaeley introduces herself as a writer, activist, and women's advocate living in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. Acknowledging the complexity of the topic, Kaeley and Elizabeth begin by defining what they mean by "Christian Nationalism," distinguishing this specific movement in Northeastern Washington and Idaho from the way the term is sometimes (erroneously in their view) used to disparage Christian Conservative thought. Kaeley highlights the threat of this Christian Nationalism movement, which, she says, is seeking to save America by turning it into a literal theocracy. Elizabeth points out that for these Christian Nationalists’ approach to faith is highly legalistic and restrictive, much like cult. Elizabeth then takes a moment to clarify how she defines a cult, since the word is often misapplied. She offers a definition of cult drawn from the University of Texas website to clarify that she and Kaeley are using the word cult in a grounded and precise way.Doug Wilson’s Influence in Elizabeth's UpbringingElizabeth also has personal direct experience with Doug Wilson’s brand of Christianity from growing up in an environment influenced by his teachings. She describes being homeschooled in an evangelical setting where Wilson's books and fundamentalist ideas became popular during her teenage years. Elizabeth explains that while her immediate family and church were not fundamentalist, she was exposed to these beliefs through social circles and her homeschool teachers. She provides examples of the strict dress codes and modesty standards practiced by some of her fundamentalist friends, illustrating the extent of their beliefs and practices.The Misuse of EmpathyHaving laid the above foundations, the conversation turns toward the so-called "the sin of empathy," which is currently gaining popularity on the political right. Kaeley shares about her experiences with the Doug Wilson tribe, and describes them as a cult-like high-control group. She highlights Wilson's influence in the broader Christian world, including his involvement in homeschooling curriculum and his connections with prominent Christian figures. Elizabeth and Kaeley discuss empathy and its real potential for misuse. They concede that empathy can be used as a tool to manipulate people. In the political sphere, for example, people’s natural empathy may be exploited to get them to agree with a particular set of policies. In domestic violence situations, abusers often use their victims’ empathy as a means to control them.Christian Nationalist Leadership vs. Jesus’ LeadershipElizabeth describes the leadership style within Christian Nationalism, in contrast to the teachings of Jesus. She argues that Christian Nationalism seeks power and control, rather than ways to be of service to others, and often prioritizes the reputation of the church over the well-being of its members. Kaeley shares her concerns about the language used by some Christian Nationalists, such as Doug Wilson, and how it contradicts the teachings of Jesus. Byron emphasizes that the influence of Christian Nationalist figures is growing rapidly and gaining traction with the emerging culture of hypermasculinity.Christian Nationalism and MasculinityThroughout the conversation, issues around the way Christinal Nationalism supports and draws on extreme, even “toxic” expressions of masculinity which emphasize control, especially of women, as a supposed Christian virtue. Byron offers a stedfast contrast to this ideology in his recognition and embodiment of the fact that true masculinity is able to be gentle and sensitive, and does not require a sense of control to be strong. Elizabeth and Kaeley share their experiences with gender roles and expectations. Both have lived experiences of transgressing traditional expectations of feminine women. The group agrees to have a future discussion about gender issues, with Kaeley noting she can speak to the harm caused by right-wing views on gender roles. They conclude by emphasizing the importance of empathy, with Elizabeth stating that denying empathy goes against traditional Christianity and Christ's teachingsLinks- Straight White American Jesus podcast- A 2 part deep dive into Joe Rigney’s book “the sin of Empathy”Scene on Radio with John Biewen covers the complexity of this subject nicely on his scene on radio podcast series season 3- MenUniversiy of Texas page on the psychology of cults Get full access to Byron Odion at byronodion821766.substack.com/subscribe

3-11-25 podcastSummary Participants- Byron Odion, Sue Lani Madsen, Kaeley Triller Harms, Paul KivelPaul and Kaeley's Introduction MeetingByron, Sue Lani, Kaeley, and Paul discussed their meeting, with Paul expressing his curiosity about the conversation's direction. while Byron expressed excitement about co-producing audio with Sulani and others. Paul and Kaeley introduced themselves, and Byron prepared to introduce Paul.Retired Activists Share Social Justice ExperiencesPaul, a retired activist and writer, shared his experiences and passion for social justice. Kaeley, a stay-at-home mom and accidental activist, discussed her commitment to defending women, particularly in the church. Sue Lani, a retired architect and journalist, talked about her transition from architecture to writing and her establishment of a nonprofit to raise rural voices in public policy discussions. Byron, a student and weaver of relationships, shared his background in radio and social justice, and his involvement in men's groups for collective liberation. The group expressed their interest in having further conversations on various topics.Christian Nationalism Podcast DiscussionIn the meeting, Sue and Byron discussed their journey from a disagreement over a substack article to the creation of a podcast on Christian nationalism. They planned to include self-introductions and a conversation on the topic. Kaeley and Paul, who have more knowledge on the subject, were invited to the discussion. Kaeley clarified that she is not an expert on the topic but is concerned about the growing popularity of Christian nationalism, which she sees as authoritarian and anti-freedom. Sue Lani shared her experience with a conservative Christian community in northeast Washington, describing them as ordinary people who wanted to be left alone.Christian Nationalism's Influence on US PoliciesIn the meeting, Sue Lani and Byron discussed the topic of Christian nationalism, with Paul providing insights on the subject. Paul explained that the United States is a country dominated by Christianity, which has significant power and wealth. He emphasized that Christian nationalism is not about an extreme group, but rather an institution of power and wealth that influences policies and rights. Paul also highlighted the Christian dominance's war against the rest of the society, aiming to control all major institutions. Sue Lani brought up the debate about whether the United States is a Christian nation, and Paul responded by emphasizing the need to focus on the present moment and the toxic variations of the underlying values causing problems now and in the future.Christian Nationalism's Growing InfluenceByron discussed his concerns about the growing influence of extreme churches in his area, particularly those promoting Christian Nationalism. Byron sited Dominick Bonney’s Substack as an excellent source for tracking Christian Nationalism locally. Kaeley provided more detailed information about Doug Wilson, a self-proclaimed cult leader in Moscow, Idaho, who has been linked to sexual abuse and has been promoting Christian Nationalism. Kaeleye expressed concern about the potential for this ideology to spread and infringe on civil liberties. Sue Lani and Paul agreed with Kaeley's assessment, with Sue questioning the extent of the influence of these fringe groups.Christian Nationalism's Influence on PolicyPaul discussed the influence of Christian Nationalism on various aspects of American life, including the Supreme Court, executive branch, and public education. Sue questioned the connection between Christian Nationalism and policy issues like education and reproductive rights, arguing that these issues have other reasons for support. Paul maintained that Christian institutions are driving policy initiatives, while Sue Lani emphasized the importance of considering broader moral foundations in policy debates.Christian Nationalism and Women's RightsThe discussion focused on the intersection of Christian nationalism and hyper-masculinity, particularly in relation to women's rights. Participants agreed that Christian nationalism is a growing concern within their community, with potential negative impacts on women. They highlighted the need to address policies that restrict women's rights and liberties, such as the proposed elimination of no-fault divorce. The group also acknowledged the significant voting power of fundamentalist and Pentecostal Christians, which can influence policy decisions. The conversation concluded with a call for caution in labeling Christian nationalism as a fringe movement, as it has already begun to shape policy in some states.Respectful Dialogue Across Ideological DividesThe group discusses the challenges of having productive conversations across ideological divides. They explore topics like affirmative action, Christian nationalism, and authoritarianism, acknowledging different perspectives while seeking common ground. The participants agree on the importance of maintaining freedom and equal opportunities for all, as well as the need to push back against authoritarianism from both the left and right. They express appreciation for the opportunity to engage in respectful dialogue despite disagreements and plan to continue the conversation in the future.https://braverangels.org/https://paulkivel.com/https://substack.com/@kaeleytrillerharms Get full access to Byron Odion at byronodion821766.substack.com/subscribe