Deviate

"Time spent traveling on trains, just staring out the window: I don't think that's lost time. That's when we have our best ideas." –Kim Krizan In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kiki introduce their interview with Kim Krizan by talking about their own personal love of the movie Before Sunrise, and how they first experienced it (0:30); Kim talks about her early travel experiences in Czechoslovakia as a teenager, and in England in her twenties (14:30); how the low-information technological moment of travel in the 1990s doesn't exist anymore in the 2020s (23:30); how Kim became involved with helping Richard Linklater write Before Sunrise, and their creative process in working together (34:00); Kim's ongoing relationship to the movie, 30 years after it came out (44:00); and an "Easter egg" segment featuring Kiki reading Melissa Fite Johnson's poem "Before Sunrise on the VCR" (55:30). Kim Krizan (@kimkrizan) is the Oscar-nominated cowriter of the Before Sunrise movies, and the author of Spy in the House of Anaïs Nin. Kristen “Kiki” Bush is an actress, known for Paterno, Liberal Arts, Suits, Law & Order: SVU, and onstage performances at Manhattan Theatre Club, The Public, and Lincoln Center. Notable Links: 2025 Screenwriting in Paris class, with Kim Krizan (creative writing class) Paris Writing Workshops (summer learning-vacation classes) Before Sunrise (1995 movie) Before Sunset (2004 movie) Ethan Hawke (American actor and director) Julie Delpy (French actress and director) Richard Linklater (American filmmaker) Kristen "Kiki" Bush in People, Places & Things (2022 play at the Studio Theatre) Thoughts on watching the Before trilogy, 25 years on, by Rolf Potts (essay) BritRail (train pass in the UK) London A-Z (street atlas) Siouxsie and the Banshees (British rock band) Wembley Stadium (London venue) Continuous partial attention (behavior) Slacker (1990 film) Dazed and Confused (1993 film) Anaïs Nin (French-American diarist and novelist) Eurail Pass (train pass to 33 European countries) The Game Camera (trailer for 2025 short film made by Kiki and Rolf)

“Travel does not require leaving your city or state or country, but it does require leaving your comfort zone. And that can happen a block or two away from where you live.” –Chloe Cooper Jones In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Chloe talk about why a section about “slum tourism” was cut out of Rolf’s newest book The Vagabond’s Way (2:30); how so much of what we talk about when we talk about travel has industrialized middle-class presumptions (7:30); the motivations and ethical considerations that underpin seeking out disadvantaged neighborhoods as a traveler (15:00); how preconceived narratives and “cultural extraction” often motivates people’s experience in a city, in ways that do not always benefit the city (25:00); what “dark tourism” and “voluntourism” are, and what the ethical ramifications are for travelers (32:00); and the difference between articulating ideals, and the work of acting on those ideals (45:00). Chloe Cooper Jones (@CCooperJones) is the author of Easy Beauty: A Memoir. She has been a Pulitzer Prize finalist in Feature Writing, and was the recipient of a Whiting Creative Nonfiction Grant, as well as a Howard Foundation Grant from Brown University. Notable Links: Integrating love of travel & love of home (Deviate episode 210) The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) The Most Beautiful Walk in the World, by John Baxter (book) Slum tourism (tours to poor areas of a city) Poetics, by Aristotle (dramatic theory) Republic, by Plato (Socratic dialogue) Immanuel Kant (philosopher) Slumdog Millionaire (2008 movie) Apartheid (system of institutionalized racial segregation) Favela (slum in Brazil) Yelp (crowd-sourced business review app) Dark tourism (tourism to places associated with tragedy) 1990 Hesston tornado outbreak (Kansas weather event) Tuol Sleng Genocide Museum (tourism attraction in Cambodia) Saw (movie franchise) Voluntourism (volunteering-themed travel) Hurricane Katrina (2005 Gulf Coast weather event) Lower Ninth Ward (New Orleans neighborhood) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“We do a lot of writing alone, in our own space. But writing is not a solitary practice. The business of writing requires a community.” –Angelique Stevens In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Angelique talk about what her writing life is like in the decade since she first took Rolf’s Paris class, with the ambition of becoming a travel writer, and how her travel book transformed into something different (2:00); how Angelique gave herself permission to write about herself in an honest way, and what craft lessons have helped her writing (8:00); and Angelique’s reading habits as a writer, her writing process, and how she came to think of herself as a writer (23:00). Angelique Stevens‘ is creative writing professor whose nonfiction has been published in Best American Essays two years in a row (2022, edited by Alexander Chee and 2023 edited by Vivian Gornick), Granta, LitHub, The New England Review, and a number of anthologies. Notable Links: Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s annual writing classes) Zapatistas (political group in in Chiapas, Mexico) Bootstrapping myth (narrative about self-starting process) Haudenosaunee (Iroquois indigenous people from the Northeast U.S) Zora Neale Hurston (American writer) Toni Morrison (American novelist) Melissa Febos (American writer) Honor, by Thrity Umrigar (book) The Situation and the Story, by Vivian Gornick (book) A Little Devil in America, by Hanif Abdurraqib (book) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“My life has often forced me to watch the Super Bowl in unusual circumstances. The first Super Bowl found me in boarding school in England, huddled under my bedclothes with an illegal transistor radio.” –Pico Iyer In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Pico talk about the novelty of two travel writers talking about the Super Bowl, and Pico’s NFL fandom (4:00); how sports can be a therapeutic diversion from the more serious aspects of life, and which players are Rolf and Pico’s all-time favorites (13:00); Pico and Rolf’s old articles for Sports Illustrated, and how narratives attach themselves to sporting contests (21:00); and what Pico’s plan and predication is for the 2025 Super Bowl (32:30). Pico Iyer (@PicoIyer) is a novelist, essayist, and author. His newest book is Aflame: Learning from Silence. Notable Links: A personal history of being a lifelong pro-sports fan (Deviate Super Bowl special 2020) The Native Americans that beat the NFL Giants (Deviate Super Bowl special 2023) Sports, superstitions, and sacraments (Deviate Super Bowl special 2024) Pico Iyer on solitude, stillness, and silence (Deviate episode) Pascal’s wager (philosophical argument) Edgar Allan Poe (American poet) Wichita North (high school in Kansas) Sports Illustrated (magazine) Eton’s Brutal, Incomprehensible Wall Game, by Pico Iyer (1995 article) Murder of football player in Kansas shakes town, by Rolf Potts (2012 article) Ralph Henry Barbour (early 20th century sports fiction writer) Notes On the Narrative Conundrum of Baseball Fandom, by Rolf Potts (article) Vin Scully (sportscaster for the LA Dodgers) Chick Hearn (sportscaster for the LA Lakers) Bill Simmons (podcaster) Nick Wright (sportscaster) 2014 American League Wild Card Game (Royals-A’s baseball playoff game) Wesley Morris (media critic) NFL football links: Baltimore Ravens (NFL football team with literary mascot) Derrick Henry (NFL running back) Tony Romo (retired NFL quarterback and commentator) Chris Collinsworth (retired NFL wide...

“Syria is a mix of everything. There are multiple Christian cultures, multiple Muslim cultures, and multiple languages. It’s the crossroads of the world. It made for some of my best travel memories from that time of my life.” —Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate (which was remixed from an episode of Ari Shaffir’s You Be Trippin’ podcast), Rolf and Ari talk about when and why Rolf traveled to Syria back in the day, and what it was like when he got there (3:30); his experience in staying in a Christian monastery in the mountains outside of Damascus (18:30); Rolf’s journey to the Tigris River, his experience with the Kurds he met in a Syria-Turkey border town, and the types of food on offer in Syria (28:30); Rolf’s enjoyable experience of watching the movie Con Air on a long-distance bus in Syria, and his experience of going to a Sudanese refugee church in Damascus (37:00); Rolf’s experience of accepting hospitality from Syrian Kurds, the experience of eavesdropping on American music at an Aleppo hotel, and what it’s like to watch American movies in other countries (47:00); old travel clothing and gear that Rolf still uses 25 years on, and Rolf’s travel tips and next destinations (1:07:00). Ari Shaffir (@AriShaffir) is a comedian, writer, podcaster, and actor. He is the host of theYou Be Trippin’ podcast,. His latest comedy special, JEW, is available on YouTube. Notable Links: Ari Shaffir on Deviate (archive of podcast episodes) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s travel memoir classes) 2011 Syrian revolution (protests and uprisings in Syria) Five Pillars of Islam (fundamental religious practices) Alawites (Arab ethnoreligious group) Ba’athism (Arab nationalist ideology) Qamishli (city on the Syria-Turkey border) Greater Kurdistan (geo-cultural region) Deir Mar Musa (Syriac Catholic monastery) Traveler ideals and hospitality in Syria (Deviate episode) Suicide door (style of automobile door) KDP (Kurdistan Democratic Party) No-fly zone (area protected from specific aircraft) Fuul (Egyptian stew of cooked fava beans) Con Air (1997 movie) Hannibal Lecter (fictional character) Second Sudanese Civil War (1983-2005 conflict) Marco Polo Didn’t Go There, by Rolf Potts (book) Ibn Battuta (14th century Arab traveler) Benjamin of Tudela (12th century Jewish tr...

“When we got into this, we didn’t know how to make videos. That’s a skill we’ve had to learn, because the industry has changed so much, from photos to videos. We are still learning all the time.” —Ann Howard In this episode of Deviate, Rolf, Mike, Ann and Kiki talk about they got started traveling as a couple, how they made it affordable, and how they made the transition into the world of content creation (2:15); how to navigate recording and sharing travel experiences that go wrong, including relationship dynamics (9:30); how to make travel “sustainable” in the personal and creative sense of the word (17:00); the advantages of having a “niche” as an influencer, and how sponsored travel works (24:30); and what makes travel influencers stand out from others, and the importance of learning new skills (34:00). Mike & Anne Howard are on The World’s Longest Honeymoon, traveling for the last 13 years through 80 countries across all 7 continents. They have written and photographed a National Geographic book on couples adventure travel, Ultimate Journeys for Two, as well as the glamping guidebook, Comfortably Wild. Notable Links: The 10-Year Honeymoon (video) Glamping (upscale camping style) DMO (destination marketing organization) Brunei (country in SE Asia) Timor-Leste (country in SE Asia) How to Get Started Housesitting (article) Co-living (residential community living model) Michelin star (restaurant rating system) Favelas (impoverished neighborhoods in Brazil) World’s Most Romantic & Sustainable Destinations (article) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“We’re having less enjoyable travel experiences, even as our photos show us having this amazing time, because we’re performing a version of travel for people who aren’t even there.” In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and David talk about the time-honored Americans pretending to be Canadian on the road, and why Americans at times have had a bad reputation abroad (2:30); strategies for avoiding becoming an “Ugly American” on the road (11:00); how a fixation with comfort can get in the way of life-enriching experiences on the road (18:30); how rituals like tipping, interacting with children, or choosing what to wear in public from culture to culture (22:00); how “voluntourism” and charity on the part of travelers is often not as selfless or effective as it pretends to be (30:00); how social media has a way of turning us into superficial, image-obsessed travelers (34:00); and how technology has transformed (and constrained) the way we all travel (39:00). David Martinez is an Associate Professor of Spanish and the director of the Center for Study Abroad at George Fox University in Newberg, Oregon. Notable Links: How to study abroad, even if you aren’t a student (Deviate episode 221) The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Flag-jacking (the practice of travelers to be from someplace they’re not) Paris Writing Workshop (Rolf’s travel-memoir writing classes) The Comfort Crisis, by Michael Easter (book) Misogi (Japanese Shinto ritual) Voluntourism (short-term charity work for travelers) Picturesque (aesthetic ideal) The Shallows, by Nicholas G. Carr (book) The Scent of Time, by Byung-Chul Han (book) George Fox Talks (podcast) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.