Dr. John Vervaeke

What if the question is not simply whether life has meaning, but how our capacity for meaning develops? In this Lectern conversation, Ethan Hsieh speaks with Brendan Graham Dempsey about his upcoming course, Matters Over Time: How the Sacred and Significant Evolve in Self and Society. Brendan introduces the course through his own experience of a meaning crisis, which led him to ask how meaning-making frames are constructed, lost, reconstructed, and developed. The conversation begins at the personal level. Brendan explains why studying meaning-making can help us understand our own minds, other people's worlds, and the recurring patterns by which human beings organize significance. Ethan presses him from two sides: the person who feels life is already meaningful enough, and the person who has searched for meaning for years without finding it. Brendan's answer is careful: the course is not meant to force existential confrontation, but to invite a wider and deeper participation in reality. From there, the discussion turns toward relativism, nihilism, and pluralism. Brendan argues that once an inherited worldview breaks open, people often either double down on a single frame or collapse into the idea that all meaning is merely private. His work tries to find an order beyond that pluralistic chaos by looking at developmental patterns in meaning-making across individual lives, cultures, and history. The final movement of the conversation brings the course into its largest register: the sacred. Brendan frames meaning as a kind of knowledge that links us to reality in a viability-enhancing way, and he interprets the sacred as that which deepens flourishing, widens participation, and draws us into awe, wonder, and transformation. The course becomes not only a theory of meaning, but an invitation to see ourselves as participants in a much larger learning process. Key Insights Meaning-making can be studied as a developmental process rather than treated as a private feeling or arbitrary construction. Brendan's work is shaped by his own meaning crisis and by John Vervaeke's account of the cultural meaning crisis. Complexification does not mean abandoning what already matters; it means situating it within a wider and deeper horizon. Ethical growth requires widening meaning beyond the self and becoming more responsive to other people, cultures, and perspectives. Faith Development Theory and interview-based research offer ways to study how people answer questions about purpose and significance. Relativism can be an advance beyond rigid absolutism, but it can also become chaotic and disorienting. The course links individual development to cultural evolution and the history of human meaning-making. Brendan resists both triumphalist progress stories and simple decline stories. The sacred is presented as evolving through human history as our relationship to ultimate concern becomes more complex. The course is meant to be dialogical and exploratory, not a closed system. Timestamps 00:00 Welcome and introduction 01:30 Brendan's background and research focus 02:00 Personal meaning crisis and meaning-making 03:30 John Vervaeke's influence 04:00 Course frame: sacred and significant in self and society 06:00 Why study meaning if life already feels fine? 08:20 Patterns and structures in meaning-making 09:30 Learning as meta-meaningful 11:40 Does growth threaten existing meaning? 12:30 Expanding the meaning horizon 13:20 Ethical widening beyond the self 14:40 Widening and deepening 17:30 Searching for meaning and fearing interior work 18:40 Growth, effort, and challenge 21:10 Comfort, hollowness, and the "so what?" question 22:40 How do I know my life is meaningful? 23:00 Faith Development Theory and lived interview data 24:50 Different answers to meaning 28:40 Is meaning merely private? 29:20 Absolutism, worldviews, and the bursting of the bubble 32:30 Relativism and pluralistic chaos 34:10 Ordering different meaning-making frames 36:40 Recovering from nihilism 39:40 Understanding our 2026 epoch 40:50 Individual meaning and cultural evolution 41:40 Similar patterns across life and history 44:00 The cosmic scale of meaning-making 46:20 Already connected to something larger 48:10 From abstract framework to embodied worldview 50:20 The cosmic fluke story 52:40 Human meaning-making and cosmic complexification 54:00 Responsibility and the call toward wisdom 57:40 Meaning-making and the sacred 59:40 The sacred, viability, and flourishing 01:00:30 Awe, wonder, and reality beyond our current frame 01:02:10 Sacred symbols and tradition 01:03:10 Updating the sacred through prophets and sages 01:04:00 From tribe to common humanity 01:05:40 The sacred as evolving 01:06:10 God and cultural evolution 01:09:30 The course as contemplation 01:10:20 Seeing oneself as part of the process 01:12:30 Re-homing modern people in relation to the sacred 01:14:40 Participating in a new movement of the sacred 01:18:10 Epistemic humility and dialogos 01:20:20 Closing Resources Matters Over Time: How the Sacred and Significant Evolve in Self and Society Brendan Graham Dempsey Institute of Applied Metatheory Sky Meadow Institute John Vervaeke, Awakening from the Meaning Crisis John Vervaeke, Seeing God Again for the First Time James Fowler, Faith Development Theory Friedrich Nietzsche Joseph Campbell John Thatamanil Meister Eckhart Paul Tillich The Silver Road Follow John Vervaeke: Website: https://johnvervaeke.com/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@johnvervaeke/videos X: https://x.com/DrJohnVervaeke Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke

What does it mean to say the world is fundamentally open for play - and why does it take something to even have to say it at all? In this episode - the third and final in a live-recorded three-part series with Ethan Hsieh, Taylor Barratt, and John Vervaeke - the conversation centers on Ethan as he unpacks the distinction between teaching and facilitation, the purpose of TIAMAT, and the deep personal why that drives his work. John maps the teacher/facilitator divide onto Aristotle's sophia and phronesis, while the group works through how theory and practice function as mutual correctives - each able to expose the other's blind spots. They examine phenomenological adequacy (how a theory can be causally sound yet fail to account for what's actually showing up in lived practice), the necessity of an ecology of practices over any single panacea, and why no closed overarching theory can substitute for genuine interdisciplinary dialogue. Ethan unpacks TIAMAT's purpose as psycho-education toward a good life - affording self-knowledge and heightened religiosity (bindedness to self, other, and world) without becoming a religion - and walks through the SPIRE framework (Service, Pilgrimage, Inquiry, Ritual, Enlightenment). The conversation deepens into the primordial nature of relationality, the actor training roots of TIAMAT, and Ethan's core conviction: that serious play - wrestling fully with what matters, using every faculty of one's being - is the most human way to stay genuinely coupled to a reality that always exceeds our grasp. The episode closes on joy: not pleasure, not comfort, but contact. Ethan Hsieh is the Director of Community Development and Partnerships at the Vervaeke Foundation. He comes from an acting background focused on character development. LinkedIn Taylor Barratt is the Director of Practice and Education at the Vervaeke Foundation. He has over a decade of experience in relational leadership through Authentic Relating Toronto. LinkedIn X 00:00 Welcome to the Lectern 01:30 Introducing Ethan - the third and final session 03:00 Teaching vs. facilitation - the core distinction 04:20 The knowing-doing and being-becoming questions 06:30 What truly distinguishes a teacher from a facilitator? 08:00 Responsibility, longitudinal tracking, and development 09:00 Training containers vs. drop-in practice 11:10 Sophia and phronesis - Aristotle on wisdom 12:30 Self-correction and attachment to theory or practice 14:10 Adaptive fit vs. adaptive transfer 17:30 When to bring theory in as a leader 20:00 Theory as legitimation of practice 22:00 Does practice challenge theory? Practice as research 24:00 Phenomenological adequacy - what theory can miss 26:00 Being too precious about theory or practice 27:00 Voice work and the emotional dimension as data 28:30 Deficit, excess, and the normativity of practice 30:30 Ecology of practices as pedagogical design 32:20 Why there's no closed theoretical system 33:00 Why there's no panacea discipline 35:00 TIAMAT as a living, evolving system 35:50 Predictive processing, CBT, and Jungian thought 36:30 Propositional knowledge must afford participation 38:10 What's ours to do? Defining scope of practice 41:20 What is TIAMAT actually for? 43:00 Pathological vs. positive psychology 46:10 TIAMAT: psycho-education for a good life 47:00 Religiosity without religion 48:30 SPIRE - Service, Pilgrimage, Inquiry, Ritual, Enlightenment 49:30 Enriching religio and relationship 50:20 Relationality is primordial - all of it is real 52:00 Depersonalization and the world-as-instrument trap 54:00 Why Taylor does this work 56:40 "The world is open for play" 58:00 Joy as good 59:00 Serious play as anamnesis - recovering what was forgotten 01:00:00 Joy vs. pleasure - genuine coupling to reality 01:01:00 Daoism, Zen, and the blurry line with philosophy 01:02:00 Actor training as the origin of TIAMAT 01:03:30 Anger and sadness at unnecessary suffering 01:08:30 "Why do I have to tell you that you matter?" 01:10:00 Holding the suchness of where someone is 01:11:10 Joy as developing relationship - closing thoughts The Vervaeke Foundation is committed to advancing the scientific pursuit of wisdom and creating a significant impact on the world. Become a part of our mission. Join Awaken to Meaning to explore practices that enhance your virtues and foster deeper connections with reality and relationships. Follow John Vervaeke: Website | Twitter | YouTube | Patreon Thank you for listening!

What does it mean for practice to become "really real" - and how does theory help keep that experience honest? In this episode - the second in a live-recorded three-part series with Taylor Barratt, Ethan Hsieh, and John Vervaeke - the conversation centers on Taylor as he reflects on the movement between practice and theory. Taylor describes how different vocabularies can converge around a shared sense of rightness, how moments of deep practice can feel lucid, beautiful, and more real, and why theory became meaningful for him only after he had spent enough time inside practice for the novelty to settle. John and Taylor compare their opposite trajectories: Taylor moving from practice toward theory, and John from theory into practice. Together with Ethan, they examine collective intelligence, practice design, and the need for mutual correction between theory, practice, and other people. The conversation deepens into the ethical responsibility of facilitation: designing for people not yet in the room, balancing explanation with experience, and learning to bring the whole self without becoming self-involved. Taylor explores how facilitation transfers into parenting, family life, trust, and ordinary relationship, and why facilitator training is not simply about learning structures, but about supervision, mistakes, cleanup, self-leadership, and getting out of your own way. The episode closes on service: the difference between doing a practice and being practiced by it, such that the orientation carries into life when it matters most. Taylor Barratt is the Director of Practice and Education at the Vervaeke Foundation. He has over a decade of experience in relational leadership through Authentic Relating Toronto. LinkedIn X Ethan Hsieh is the Director of Community Development and Partnerships at the Vervaeke Foundation. He comes from an acting background focused on character development. LinkedIn 00:00 Welcome to the Lectern 01:30 Introducing Taylor - the second conversation in the series 02:10 John and Taylor's new collaboration 02:20 What stayed alive from the previous conversation 03:00 Different languages, shared truths 04:30 Rightness, right proportion, and right orientation 05:10 Practice, salience, and moments that feel "really real" 06:20 The VIA intensive and following the moment 08:10 Beauty, lucidity, and being carried into reality 09:40 Movement between theory and practice 10:20 Calling, voluntary necessity, and practice 10:40 Taylor's path from software development into authentic relating 11:30 Chaos, ownership, and being more fully oneself 12:00 Why theory became useful only after practice matured 13:00 States, structures, and shadow work 14:40 John's opposite trajectory: theory calling into practice 15:40 Theory as a guard against self-deception 16:20 Collective intelligence and checking our work 17:00 Returning to theory with new eyes 18:30 Practice design as the lab of theory and practice 19:20 Mutual correction between theory, practice, and people 20:30 Designing practices for people not yet in the room 22:00 How do we know we are not fooling ourselves? 24:00 Shared orientation and collective sense-making 27:00 Balancing experience, explanation, and ambiguity 30:00 Maintaining the developmental band of a practice container 33:00 The challenge of leadership in transformational practice 36:00 Practice as something that teaches the facilitator 39:00 When structure supports experience 42:00 What participants need in the moment 45:00 Holding theory lightly while serving the room 48:00 The difficulty of maintaining balance as a facilitator 53:40 Does facilitation transfer into daily life? 54:50 Service, participants, and ethical orientation 56:00 Parenting, co-parenting, and tracking multiple needs 57:00 Bringing authentic relating into family life 58:40 Whole self vs. self-involvement 01:01:20 Getting clear on your "why" 01:02:00 Why facilitator training takes time 01:02:30 Self as instrument in transformation 01:03:20 Self-leadership before influence 01:04:20 Wake up, grow up, clean up, show up 01:05:40 Rapid proposals and learning not to be precious 01:06:40 Orientation toward service 01:07:00 Practicing vs. being practiced 01:08:30 Closing and invitation to the live practice room 01:09:20 Newsletters, future recordings, and upcoming trainings 01:10:20 Practical notes for joining the practice session The Vervaeke Foundation is committed to advancing the scientific pursuit of wisdom and creating a significant impact on the world. Become a part of our mission. Join Awaken to Meaning to explore practices that enhance your virtues and foster deeper connections with reality and relationships. Follow John Vervaeke: Website | Twitter | YouTube | Patreon Thank you for listening!

How can ancient spiritual practices be reanimated for modern life? In this compelling episode, John sits down again with therapist Seth Allison to delve deep into the themes of suffering, trust, and growth within the frame of internal family systems therapy and Jungian analysis. Seth discusses his transformative experiences over the past few years, including the impact of previous conversations with John and his own journey through a profound period of liminality. They touch upon voluntary necessity, the role of suffering in cultivating faith, and the transformative power of relationships and community in overcoming personal crises. Seth also highlights the significance of humility in effective leadership and his aspirations for fostering supportive, growth-oriented environments in both personal and professional settings. Seth Allison is a psychotherapist and depth-oriented thinker whose work integrates attachment theory, Internal Family Systems, and Jungian psychology with spiritual and existential inquiry. Drawing from both clinical training and lived experience, he specializes in helping individuals navigate midlife transitions, relational struggles, addiction dynamics, and identity shifts. Seth's approach emphasizes authenticity, relational depth, and the courageous engagement of suffering as a doorway to growth and deeper participation in life. Seth Allison: LinkedIn The Cost of Discipleship Murray Stein The Serenity Prayer 00:00 — Welcome to the Lectern 05:00 — Voluntary necessity and spiritual depth 08:00 — Bonhoeffer's profound insights 11:00 — Personal reflections and resonance realization 25:30 — Exploring liminality and midlife transitions 29:54 — You can't serve money and God, and money doesn't just mean money, it means ego, success and accomplishment. 52:00 — Hermes and the concept of love addiction 52:30 — The arena of partnership and self-discovery 54:00 — Addiction and attachment strategies 56:30 — Faith and recovery: a new perspective 58:30 — The role of symbols and sensory experience 59:30 — Transcendence and metanoia 01:07:30 — The importance of community in recovery 01:18:30 — Navigating betrayal and suffering 01:35:00 — Leadership and humility 01:44:00 — The subversive power of trust --- Want to go deeper? Join the Lectern platform on Teachable for full-length courses, guided series, and structured pathways into the ideas explored here. John Vervaeke: Website: https://johnvervaeke.com/ Twitter: https://x.com/DrJohnVervaeke YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@johnvervaeke/videos Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke Thank you for Listening!

In this episode of The Lectern, host Ethan Hsieh sits down with philosopher and cognitive scientist Mark Miller to explore the science of predictive processing and its implications for happiness, meaning, and wellbeing. They unpack how the brain is not a passive receiver of reality, but an active prediction engine—constantly generating its best guesses about the world and updating them through experience. From belief formation and perception to resilience, virtue, play, and mindfulness, the conversation bridges cutting-edge cognitive science with ancient contemplative wisdom. Together, Ethan and Mark discuss how understanding the predictive nature of the mind can transform how we relate to uncertainty, cultivate agency, and develop a deeper, more participatory sense of happiness—both individually and collectively. This episode also introduces Mark Miller's upcoming course, Generations of Joy, which explores these ideas through neuroscience, philosophy, and contemplative practice. Sign up for the course: https://lectern.johnvervaeke.com/courses/generations-of-joy 00:00 Welcome back to The Lectern 02:30 Mark Miller's background and research focus 06:00 Predictive processing and cognitive science 09:00 Belief, perception, and meaning-making 10:18 "You're not seeing the world—you're seeing your best guess about the world." 13:00 Course overview and key themes 27:00 Honesty, virtue, and transformation 39:30 Practical applications and course dynamics 41:30 Real-world implications of science 43:00 Emptiness, neuroscience, and insight 43:30 The frame problem in cognitive science 45:30 Optimism vs. pessimism: locking onto the world 46:30 Training the mind to discern 47:30 The interpretive nature of reality 52:00 The role of play in cognitive development 56:00 Managing uncertainty through play 01:12:30 Mindfulness and emerging evidence 01:22:00 The Transformational Neuroscience course Mark Miller is a philosopher and cognitive scientist whose work bridges philosophy, neuroscience, and contemplative science. His research explores how the predictive brain shapes happiness, wellbeing, and meaning in a technologically saturated world. He is a Senior Research Fellow at Monash University's Centre for Consciousness and Contemplative Studies (Australia), cross-affiliated with the Psychology Department at the University of Toronto (Canada), and a visiting researcher at Hokkaido University's Centre for Human Nature, Artificial Intelligence, and Neuroscience (Japan). Website: https://www.markdmiller.live/ Ethan Hsieh is a facilitator, educator, and philosophical practitioner working at the intersection of performance, cognition, and transformative pedagogy. He is the creator of TIAMAT, a three-tier developmental framework integrating cognitive science, dialogical philosophy, and embodied practice. Through immersive learning environments and collaborative inquiry, Ethan helps individuals cultivate virtuosity as a way of life—emphasizing participatory sense-making, metacognitive mapping, and shared agency. His work with the 5toMidnight collective focuses on building deliberately developmental communities grounded in relational ontology and lived philosophical transformation.

In this episode, John welcomes Mark Vernon to discuss his two books, 'Dante's Divine Comedy: A Guide for the Spiritual Journey' and 'Awake: William Blake and the Imagination'. They explore the profound psychological, philosophical, and spiritual insights offered by Dante and Blake, touching upon topics like pilgrimage, the imaginal, and the role of the imagination in renewing perception. Mark shares his experiences and how these works resonate with contemporary cognitive science and spirituality. The conversation delves deep into understanding the connections between ancient wisdom and modern thought. Mark Vernon is a writer, psychotherapist, and philosopher whose work explores the meeting point of spirituality, psychology, and philosophy. Based in London, his background in physics, theology, and psychotherapy shapes a multidisciplinary approach that bridges ancient wisdom traditions with contemporary understandings of the mind and meaning. 🔗 Learn more about Mark Vernon's work: markvernon.com Instagram Linkedin Awake: William Blake and the Power of Imagination — by Mark Vernon The Divine Comedy — by Dante Alighieri A World in a Grain of Sand — William Blake's poem reference ("Auguries of Innocence") — 00:00 Welcome to the Lectern 01:00 Discussing Dante's Divine Comedy 02:30 Exploring William Blake's work 04:00 Mark Vernon's background and inspirations 07:00 The philosophy and impact of pilgrimage 10:00 Dante's pilgrimage and personal experiences 19:00 The nature of Dante's poem 24:30 Addressing controversial topics in Dante's work 31:00 The in-between and the imaginal 33:30 Triston's predictive processing 35:00 The brain's predictive nature 35:30 Deep learning and pattern recognition 36:00 Metacognition and future self 38:30 Blake's visionary experiences 39:00 The power of imagination 41:02 41:02 "We don't hear sound waves — we hear meaning. That's how strong the imaginal is." 56:00 Confident imagination and fierce critique — The Vervaeke Foundation is committed to advancing the scientific pursuit of wisdom and creating a significant impact on the world. Become a part of our mission. Join Awaken to Meaning to explore practices that enhance your virtues and foster deeper connections with reality and relationships. — Ideas, People, and Works Mentioned in this Episode Pilgrimage as a Path of Transformation The Divine Comedy as a Map of the Soul Knowledge Through Transformation, Not Proposition The In-Between and the Imaginal Realm Cleansing the Doors of Perception The Renewal of the Senses Theoria as Pilgrimage and Contemplation Innocence, Openness, and Inner Vision The Descent as a Hidden Ascent William Desmond – Philosopher of the Between Charles Taylor – A Secular Age Henri Corbin – The Imaginal vs. The Imaginary Ibn 'Arabi – Sufi Visionary of the Heart Plato – Theoria and the Methu Aixis C.G. Jung – Synchronicity and the Soul's Descent Seeing God Again for the First Time – John Vervaeke The Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 12 – The Faces of God The Philosophical Silk Road and Pilgrimage as Practice The Camino de Santiago and Shikoku Pilgrimage The Covenant of Return – Integration and Homecoming Threshold and Passage as Spiritual Acts The Face of the World and the Call to Change Your Life — Follow John Vervaeke: Website | Twitter | YouTube | Patreon — Thank you for watching!

To learn directly from Ethan Hsieh, John Vervaeke and Taylor Barratt, The Lectern is partnering with 5ToMidnight to offer a long form hybrid (online/in-person) practice program called TIAMAT-X. This program brings a full ecology of practices, endorsed by The Vervaeke Foundation to help you develop the capacity to… perceive what matters regulate in real time and act with clarity …through a cohesive method that weaves together mindful dialogue, embodiment, imaginal practice, and disciplined mindfulness. Learn more about the program here: https://www.5tomidnight.org/offerings/tiamat-x https://lectern.johnvervaeke.com/courses/tiamat-x In part three of the Lectern Dialogues series, John Vervaeke and Ethan Hsieh explore how virtue can be cultivated as a lived, embodied practice through an immersive ecology of education. The focus is on layered accounts of virtue — civic, purification, and illumination — and the role of ritual, altered states, and phenomenology in shaping meaning and sacredness. The conversation also addresses the risks of deification, authenticity loss, and cult dynamics, inviting a participatory, relational understanding of education oriented toward wisdom and agency. Ethan Hsieh Ethan Hsieh is a facilitator, educator, and philosophical practitioner whose work bridges performance, cognition, and transformative pedagogy. As the creator of TIAMAT—a three-tiered developmental framework—he integrates insights from performance practice, cognitive science, and dialogical philosophy to help individuals cultivate virtuosity as a way of life. Through immersive training containers and collaborative inquiry, he guides participants in mapping their inner experience, expanding their relational capacities, and enacting what he calls "postures of presence." Ethan's approach emphasizes participatory learning, metacognitive mapping, and the cultivation of agency through shared practice. His work with the collective 5toMidnight seeks to foster deliberately developmental communities grounded in relational ontology, where philosophical understanding becomes lived transformation. — 00:00 Welcome to the Lectern 02:00 Exploring virtue and sacredness 04:00 Layers of virtue and practice 06:00 Rituals and altered states of consciousness 10:30 Phenomenology and the sacred 18:00 Transformative insight and lived experience 30:30 Being-in-the-world and interconnectedness 38:00 Framework rejection and deification concerns 40:30 Ego, deification, and demonization 41:00 Virtue and the ego's filtration function 44:00 Addressing cult dynamics 46:00 Identifying healthy traditions and practices 51:30 Realness, resonance, and authenticity 55:00 Logos and the Good 01:06:00 The value of embodied experience — Follow John Vervaeke https://lectern.johnvervaeke.com https://x.com/DrJohnVervaeke https://www.youtube.com/@johnvervaeke https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke — Thank you for watching!

Learn more about the program here: https://lectern.johnvervaeke.com/courses/tiamat-x Led by Ethan Hsieh, John Vervaeke and Taylor Barratt, The Lectern is partnering with 5ToMidnight to offer a long form hybrid (online/in-person) practice program called TIAMAT-X. This program brings a full ecology of practices, endorsed by The Vervaeke Foundation to help you develop the capacity to... • perceive what matters • regulate in real time • and act with clarity …through a cohesive method that weaves together mindful dialogue, embodiment, imaginal practice, and disciplined mindfulness. Learn more about the program here: https://lectern.johnvervaeke.com/courses/tiamat-x