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On the show
From 19 epsHosts
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Recent episodes
Why Wonder Is More Than Curiosity with William Desmond
Jun 26, 2026
Unknown duration
Why We No Longer Know What We Should Do with Jordan Hall, Guy Sengstock, and Christopher Mastropietro
Jun 19, 2026
Unknown duration
Ish Peregrino: Pilgrimage Is More Than Travel. It Changes How You See Reality
Jun 5, 2026
1h 19m 21s
William Desmond and John Vervaeke: Strong Transcendence, Plato, and the Between
May 28, 2026
1h 37m 11s
Reconnect to the Real: John Vervaeke, Guy Sengstock, and Kyle Koch Announce the Whistler Retreat
May 21, 2026
1h 04m 48s
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| Date | Episode | Topics | Guests | Brands | Places | Keywords | Sponsor | Length | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 6/26/26 | ![]() Why Wonder Is More Than Curiosity with William Desmond | What happens when wonder is reduced to curiosity, and curiosity becomes a drive to master everything? In this second conversation with William Desmond, John Vervaeke returns to the question of astonishment: not as a passing emotional state, but as a deeper opening of the mind to reality. Desmond frames scientism as a philosophical interpretation of science that tries to make all essential questions answerable through determinate method, precision, and control. Science remains valuable, but scientism forgets the more original wonder from which inquiry arises. The conversation distinguishes astonishment, perplexity, and curiosity. Curiosity seeks determinate answers, while astonishment opens us to what exceeds our mastery. Vervaeke connects this with his own distinction between the having mode and the being mode, arguing that genuine wonder is bound up with transformation rather than mere information. From there, the dialogue turns to Plato, Aristotle, Hegel, logical positivism, AI, computation, relevance realization, and insight. Desmond and Vervaeke ask whether intelligibility can be reduced to determination, or whether the most important forms of understanding depend on a living act of insight that formal systems cannot generate on their own. The final movement turns toward spiritual practice, Socrates, Jesus, the Buddha, religion, trust, and forgiveness. If modern culture suffers from a dearth of astonishment, then the recovery of meaning may require more than better arguments. It may require practices, communities, and forms of dialogue that reawaken porosity, reverence, and an openness to the sacred. Timestamps 00:00 - Introduction and the Desmond conversation so far 03:00 - Science, scientism, and the desire to make everything univocal 06:30 - Astonishment, perplexity, and curiosity 14:00 - Plato, Aristotle, and the purpose of philosophical wonder 16:30 - Having, being, mystery, and transformation 22:20 - Whether knowledge dissolves wonder 26:10 - Logical positivism and the failure of total certainty 31:30 - The four kinds of knowing and propositional tyranny 34:00 - Insight, inference, and logical systems 41:40 - Relevance realization, computation, and AI 46:30 - What intelligibility means beyond determination 50:40 - Inexhaustibility and the hyper-intelligible 58:20 - Dialectic, dialogos, and the practice of astonishment 01:03:40 - Porosity, the buffered self, and vulnerability 01:07:00 - Meaninglessness, spiritual practice, and cultural homelessness 01:12:30 - Reawakening astonishment without commodifying experience 01:14:10 - Ancient dialogue as a response to skepticism 01:17:30 - Socrates, Jesus, the Buddha, and embodied wisdom 01:22:00 - Religion, the sacred, and suspicion of God 01:27:30 - Trust, forgiveness, and cultural metanoia 01:30:20 - Closing thoughts and the next conversation Key Insights Scientism totalizes science by treating scientific method as the answer to every essential question. Astonishment is more original than curiosity because it opens inquiry rather than merely directing it toward control. Perplexity matters because some mysteries are not failures of explanation but enduring features of the human condition. Insight depends on living participation in intelligibility, not only inference or computation. AI and formal systems can imitate aspects of thought, but they do not resolve the deeper question of living noetic activity. Modern meaninglessness is intensified when institutions, practices, and role models no longer help people recover reverence and connectedness. Religion must be discussed at the level of human vulnerability, longing, trust, failure, and mystery, not only at the level of institutional critique. Resources Astonishments and Science: Engagements with William Desmond - edited by Paul Tyson William Desmond, "The Dearth of Astonishment: On Curiosity, Scientism and Thinking as Negativity" William Desmond, God and the Between Gabriel Marcel, Being and Having Bernard Lonergan, Insight Charles Taylor, A Secular Age Augustine's Cassiciacum dialogues About William Desmond William Desmond is a philosopher whose work engages metaphysics, religion, art, science, and transcendence. In this conversation, he and John Vervaeke continue their exploration of astonishment, scientism, the between, and philosophical practice. Follow The Lectern for conversations on philosophy, meaning, wisdom, and the recovery of deeper forms of knowing. Thanks for listening! | — | ||||||
| 6/19/26 | ![]() Why We No Longer Know What We Should Do with Jordan Hall, Guy Sengstock, and Christopher Mastropietro | What happens when a society possesses extraordinary technological power but lacks a shared sense of what that power is for? John Vervaeke, Jordan Hall, Guy Sengstock, and Christopher Mastropietro reunite for a sustained inquiry into normativity: the structures by which human beings perceive direction, value, responsibility, and the difference between better and worse action. The question becomes urgent in the context of artificial intelligence, where increasingly consequential decisions are being made inside a culture that struggles to articulate a coherent basis for judgment. The conversation begins with Guy's encounters with the AI community and the fear that humanity may soon make decisions it cannot reverse. From there, the group investigates modernity's technological understanding of being, the reduction of creation to artifacts, and the modern self's attachment to sole authorship. John and Jordan propose that meaning is participatory: intelligibility is not manufactured by isolated selves but emerges through shared authorship with other people, traditions, practices, and reality itself. The dialogue then turns toward virtue. If the problem is not simply ignorance but malformed attention and desire, knowing what should be done is insufficient. The deeper difficulty is how people become capable of wanting, perceiving, and participating in what is good. Socratic aporia, vulnerability, kenosis, embodied practice, pilgrimage, and dialogue are explored as ways of undergoing reorientation rather than merely acquiring information. In the final movement, the speakers discuss bad-faith dialogue, leisure, lingering, tourism, linguistic lostness, and doomscrolling. These apparently different subjects converge on one insight: when people remain sealed inside environments engineered around their existing capacities and preferences, they lose access to the forms of friction, surprise, and participation that can transform them. Key Insights Normativity is the directional structure through which actions appear better, worse, appropriate, or necessary. The AI crisis exposes a deeper cultural inability to answer what technology should serve. Modernity often confuses participation in creation with ownership of the resulting artifact. Meaning and intelligibility require shared authorship rather than sovereign individual control. Virtue cannot be transmitted as information alone; it requires transformed attention and participation. Embodied practices can reorganize abstractions because higher cognition remains rooted in sensorimotor life. Pilgrimage, leisure, and dialogos help people cross boundaries between worlds rather than consuming only familiar inputs. Doomscrolling is an efficient example of technology feeding hypertrophied capacities while narrowing participation in reality. Timestamps 00:00 - The group reunites 01:10 - Normativity as the central concern 02:40 - Guy's San Francisco radio work 05:20 - Inside an AI thought-leader conference 08:30 - The danger of irreversible technological decisions 13:50 - Intrinsic normativity and attention 16:00 - Liminal navigation and the limits of simulation 20:30 - Art, creation, and artifacts 23:00 - Heidegger's technological understanding of being 25:40 - Participation and shared authorship 28:30 - Modernity's reinforcing attractor 31:00 - Socratic aporia 33:20 - Finding the right orientation 37:50 - Exposure, vulnerability, and displacement 40:10 - Sole authorship and identity 42:20 - Kenosis and the emptying of privilege 44:20 - Reconstitution and commitment to truth 49:10 - Virtue and its opposites 51:40 - AI and humanity's final decision 54:10 - Knowing what to do versus becoming able to do it 56:10 - Can virtue be taught? 58:20 - Remediating participation in ordinary life 01:00:20 - Pilgrimage and unfamiliar worlds 01:02:30 - Embodied cognition and reorientation 01:04:30 - Rilke and self-emptying 01:09:20 - Sacred directionality 01:11:20 - Crossing the threshold into action 01:13:50 - Bad faith and dialogical boundaries 01:18:40 - Leisure and time 01:21:20 - Lingering beneath atomized time 01:23:30 - Tourist and pilgrim 01:25:50 - Modernization and tourism 01:30:10 - Being linguistically lost 01:33:00 - Situation and participation 01:35:10 - Doomscrolling as narrowed reality 01:37:30 - Returning from pilgrimage Resources Plato and Socratic aporia Charles Taylor Martin Heidegger Rainer Maria Rilke Christian concepts of kenosis, theosis, and synergy Embodied cognitive science Pilgrimage Dialogos Follow Lectern for more conversations about wisdom, meaning, philosophy, technology, spirituality, and cultural renewal. | — | ||||||
| 6/5/26 | ![]() Ish Peregrino: Pilgrimage Is More Than Travel. It Changes How You See Reality✨ | pilgrimagespirituality+3 | Ish Peregrino | Upfire Digital LLC | — | pilgrimagespiritual practice+3 | — | 1h 19m 21s | |
| 5/28/26 | ![]() William Desmond and John Vervaeke: Strong Transcendence, Plato, and the Between✨ | transcendencePlatonism+5 | William Desmond | Plato | — | transcendencePlatonism+5 | — | 1h 37m 11s | |
| 5/21/26 | ![]() Reconnect to the Real: John Vervaeke, Guy Sengstock, and Kyle Koch Announce the Whistler Retreat✨ | modern worldancient practices+5 | Guy SengstockKyle Koch | Brû Creek Lodge | Whistler, British Columbia | taste for the realAI+5 | — | 1h 04m 48s | |
| 5/18/26 | ![]() Brendan Graham Dempsey: Matters Over Time✨ | meaning-makingexistential inquiry+4 | Brendan Graham Dempsey | Matters Over Time: How the Sacred and Significant Evolve in Self and Society | — | meaningmeaning crisis+5 | — | 1h 21m 02s | |
| 5/15/26 | ![]() From Flow to Mystical Experience✨ | flowmystical experience+4 | HüseyinDaniel | — | — | flowmystical experience+5 | — | 1h 26m 47s | |
| 5/8/26 | ![]() Who is Ethan Hsieh? | Teaching, Play & What TIAMAT is For✨ | teachingfacilitation+5 | Ethan Hsieh | TIAMATAristotle's sophia and phronesis | — | playteaching+5 | — | 1h 12m 57s | |
| 5/8/26 | ![]() Silk Road Seminar: John Vervaeke with Edward Slingerland✨ | wisdomcognition+4 | Edward Slingerland | University of British ColumbiaTrying Not to Try | — | wisdomcognition+6 | — | 1h 28m 46s | |
| 5/1/26 | ![]() Who is Taylor Barratt? | Practice, Theory & the Ethics of Facilitation✨ | facilitationtheory and practice+3 | Taylor Barratt | — | — | facilitationtheory+5 | — | 1h 11m 28s | |
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| 4/28/26 | ![]() Silk Road Seminar: John Vervaeke with James Matthew Wilson and D.C. Schindler✨ | philosophytheology+5 | James Matthew WilsonD.C. Schindler | University of St. ThomasJohn Paul II Institute | — | Silk Road Seminarphilosophy+5 | — | 1h 57m 18s | |
| 4/23/26 | ![]() Bridging the Gap: Theory, Practice, and Trust✨ | theory and practicecommunal meaning-making+3 | Taylor BarrattEthan Hsieh | Vervaeke FoundationPlato's cave cycle+2 | — | certaintymeaning+5 | — | 1h 09m 14s | |
| 4/17/26 | ![]() Poetry Wakes You to Reality | John Vervaeke & Adam Walker✨ | poetryhuman flourishing+4 | Adam Walker | HarvardVersed+1 | — | poetryhuman flourishing+4 | — | 1h 19m 54s | |
| 4/2/26 | ![]() Poetry as Spiritual Practice: Bridging the Chasm Between Academia and the Public | John Vervaeke & Adam Walker✨ | poetryspiritual practice+5 | Adam Walker | HarvardEliot's Four Quartets+1 | — | poetryspirituality+5 | — | 1h 14m 24s | |
| 3/29/26 | ![]() Lectern Live Q&A with Mark Miller (03.29.26)✨ | cognitive sciencephilosophy+3 | Mark Miller | LecternGenerations of Joy | — | cognitive sciencephilosophy+4 | — | 1h 22m 20s | |
| 3/27/26 | ![]() Can Zen and Neoplatonism Solve the Meaning Crisis? Vervaeke and Hsieh✨ | meaning crisisZen+4 | Ethan Hsieh | Upfire Digital LLCThe Lectern+1 | — | meaning crisisZen+5 | — | 1h 31m 52s | |
| 3/20/26 | ![]() Is Reality Incomplete? Desmond and Vervaeke on Meaning and Being✨ | philosophymeaning+4 | William DesmondGuy Sengstock | Circling Institute | — | meaningbeing+5 | — | 1h 31m 22s | |
| 3/13/26 | ![]() The Cognitive Science of Happiness with Mark Miller✨ | cognitive sciencehappiness+5 | Mark Miller | University of TorontoCenter for Consciousness and Contemplative Studies+3 | — | cognitive sciencehappiness+6 | — | 55m 01s | |
| 3/6/26 | ![]() Lectern Live Q&A with Mark Miller (02.28.26)✨ | cognitive sciencephilosophy+3 | Mark Miller | LecternGenerations of Joy | — | cognitive sciencephilosophy+5 | — | 1h 31m 33s | |
| 2/27/26 | ![]() Deep Calls to Deep | Poetry, Prophecy, Philosophy in Ibn Gabirol with Zevi Slavin✨ | metaphysicsJewish thought+4 | Zevi Slavin | Seekers of UnityUpfire Digital LLC+1 | — | Ibn Gabirolmetaphysical claims+4 | — | 1h 23m 15s | |
| 2/20/26 | ![]() Is Matter Alive? The Metaphysics of Divine Desire✨ | metaphysicsdivine desire+5 | Zevi Slavin | Ibn GabirolAvicebron+8 | — | Ibn Gabiroldivine desire+6 | — | 1h 17m 31s | |
| 2/13/26 | ![]() Finding Faith: A Conversation on Therapy, Trust, and Transformation | How can ancient spiritual practices be reanimated for modern life? In this compelling episode, John sits down again with therapist Seth Allison to delve deep into the themes of suffering, trust, and growth within the frame of internal family systems therapy and Jungian analysis. Seth discusses his transformative experiences over the past few years, including the impact of previous conversations with John and his own journey through a profound period of liminality. They touch upon voluntary necessity, the role of suffering in cultivating faith, and the transformative power of relationships and community in overcoming personal crises. Seth also highlights the significance of humility in effective leadership and his aspirations for fostering supportive, growth-oriented environments in both personal and professional settings. Seth Allison is a psychotherapist and depth-oriented thinker whose work integrates attachment theory, Internal Family Systems, and Jungian psychology with spiritual and existential inquiry. Drawing from both clinical training and lived experience, he specializes in helping individuals navigate midlife transitions, relational struggles, addiction dynamics, and identity shifts. Seth's approach emphasizes authenticity, relational depth, and the courageous engagement of suffering as a doorway to growth and deeper participation in life. Seth Allison: LinkedIn The Cost of Discipleship Murray Stein The Serenity Prayer 00:00 — Welcome to the Lectern 05:00 — Voluntary necessity and spiritual depth 08:00 — Bonhoeffer's profound insights 11:00 — Personal reflections and resonance realization 25:30 — Exploring liminality and midlife transitions 29:54 — You can't serve money and God, and money doesn't just mean money, it means ego, success and accomplishment. 52:00 — Hermes and the concept of love addiction 52:30 — The arena of partnership and self-discovery 54:00 — Addiction and attachment strategies 56:30 — Faith and recovery: a new perspective 58:30 — The role of symbols and sensory experience 59:30 — Transcendence and metanoia 01:07:30 — The importance of community in recovery 01:18:30 — Navigating betrayal and suffering 01:35:00 — Leadership and humility 01:44:00 — The subversive power of trust --- Want to go deeper? Join the Lectern platform on Teachable for full-length courses, guided series, and structured pathways into the ideas explored here. John Vervaeke: Website: https://johnvervaeke.com/ Twitter: https://x.com/DrJohnVervaeke YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@johnvervaeke/videos Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke Thank you for Listening! | — | ||||||
| 2/4/26 | ![]() Lectern Live Q&A (2.4.26) — The "Underground Man" Problem, Dissociation, and Prayer as Re-centering | In this episode of The Lectern, John Vervaeke and host Ethan Hsieh explore what Ethan calls the "Underground Man" problem. How we can get trapped in endless abstraction, lose contact with lived meaning, and oscillate between inflation and collapse. They unpack the reflectiveness gap (hyper-reflection that disconnects us from motivation), how the imaginal bridges the abstract and the embodied, and why the cultural severing of transcendence and finitude fuels cycles of nihilism, indecision, and irresponsible action. The conversation also dives into the cognitive science of dissociation including volitional vs. pathological forms. Showing how disruptive strategies can support transformation when followed by reintegration. The Q&A then turns toward prayer and ritual: how they can go wrong as "vicious abstraction," and how they can go right as re-centering a dialogical practice that reconnects us to reality, responsibility, and compassion. This episode also includes an important announcement: this will be John's last Lectern Q&A for a while. Over the next few months, Mark Miller will host Lectern Q&As while his course runs on the platform. Sign up for Lectern (Teachable) and explore current courses: https://lectern.teachable.com/p/lectern-lounge Timecodes: 00:00 Welcome + Lectern Live Q&A begins 01:00 Format: pre-submitted questions + YouTube chat + call-in option 02:20 Announcement: John stepping back; Mark Miller hosting upcoming Q&As 03:05 Who Mark Miller is + why his course matters 06:00 The "Underground Man" problem + the reflectiveness gap 09:40 Phenomenology: inflation, collapse, depression, nihilism, atrophy of agency 17:35 Culture-level pattern: severing transcendence and finitude 19:50 Why "more abstraction" doesn't fix it 20:40 Non-duality, recentering, and the return to the lived 25:35 Dissociation + predictive processing + relevance realization 27:20 Dialogical self ("I-positions") + narrative binding across agency/selfhood/personhood 31:00 Self-organizing criticality + pivotal mental states 33:25 Volitional vs. pathological dissociation; reintegration vs. fragmentation 36:45 Being/non-being interwoven; mortality and transformation 38:45 Prayer/ritual: vicious vs. virtuous abstraction 44:45 A concrete example of re-centering prayer 51:55 Primordial vs. ultimate; intuition/insight/inspiration and the sacred 01:06:10 YouTube chat: sports/flow as an ecology of practices + sportsmanship 01:08:05 YouTube chat: how John re-centers (Søren / orientation-level flow) 01:13:05 YouTube chat: "Underground woman" problem + caregiving inflation/collapse 01:20:05 Closing + next Q&A with Mark Miller (date mentioned in episode) John Vervaeke is a professor, philosopher, and cognitive scientist whose work focuses on the meaning crisis, relevance realization, and the cognitive science of wisdom. His research bridges cognitive science, philosophy, and contemplative traditions to explore how humans cultivate insight, agency, and deep transformation. Ethan Hsieh is a facilitator, educator, and philosophical practitioner working at the intersection of performance, cognition, and transformative pedagogy. He is the creator of TIAMAT, a three-tier developmental framework integrating cognitive science, dialogical philosophy, and embodied practice. Through immersive learning environments and collaborative inquiry, Ethan helps individuals cultivate virtuosity as a way of life—emphasizing participatory sense-making, metacognitive mapping, and shared agency. John Vervaeke: Website: https://johnvervaeke.com/ Twitter: https://x.com/DrJohnVervaeke YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@johnvervaeke/videos Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke If you would like to donate purely out of goodwill to support John's work, please consider joining our Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke | — | ||||||
| 1/31/26 | ![]() Exploring Predictive Processing and the Science of Happiness with Mark Miller | In this episode of The Lectern, host Ethan Hsieh sits down with philosopher and cognitive scientist Mark Miller to explore the science of predictive processing and its implications for happiness, meaning, and wellbeing. They unpack how the brain is not a passive receiver of reality, but an active prediction engine—constantly generating its best guesses about the world and updating them through experience. From belief formation and perception to resilience, virtue, play, and mindfulness, the conversation bridges cutting-edge cognitive science with ancient contemplative wisdom. Together, Ethan and Mark discuss how understanding the predictive nature of the mind can transform how we relate to uncertainty, cultivate agency, and develop a deeper, more participatory sense of happiness—both individually and collectively. This episode also introduces Mark Miller's upcoming course, Generations of Joy, which explores these ideas through neuroscience, philosophy, and contemplative practice. Sign up for the course: https://lectern.johnvervaeke.com/courses/generations-of-joy 00:00 Welcome back to The Lectern 02:30 Mark Miller's background and research focus 06:00 Predictive processing and cognitive science 09:00 Belief, perception, and meaning-making 10:18 "You're not seeing the world—you're seeing your best guess about the world." 13:00 Course overview and key themes 27:00 Honesty, virtue, and transformation 39:30 Practical applications and course dynamics 41:30 Real-world implications of science 43:00 Emptiness, neuroscience, and insight 43:30 The frame problem in cognitive science 45:30 Optimism vs. pessimism: locking onto the world 46:30 Training the mind to discern 47:30 The interpretive nature of reality 52:00 The role of play in cognitive development 56:00 Managing uncertainty through play 01:12:30 Mindfulness and emerging evidence 01:22:00 The Transformational Neuroscience course Mark Miller is a philosopher and cognitive scientist whose work bridges philosophy, neuroscience, and contemplative science. His research explores how the predictive brain shapes happiness, wellbeing, and meaning in a technologically saturated world. He is a Senior Research Fellow at Monash University's Centre for Consciousness and Contemplative Studies (Australia), cross-affiliated with the Psychology Department at the University of Toronto (Canada), and a visiting researcher at Hokkaido University's Centre for Human Nature, Artificial Intelligence, and Neuroscience (Japan). Website: https://www.markdmiller.live/ Ethan Hsieh is a facilitator, educator, and philosophical practitioner working at the intersection of performance, cognition, and transformative pedagogy. He is the creator of TIAMAT, a three-tier developmental framework integrating cognitive science, dialogical philosophy, and embodied practice. Through immersive learning environments and collaborative inquiry, Ethan helps individuals cultivate virtuosity as a way of life—emphasizing participatory sense-making, metacognitive mapping, and shared agency. His work with the 5toMidnight collective focuses on building deliberately developmental communities grounded in relational ontology and lived philosophical transformation. | — | ||||||
| 1/20/26 | ![]() Silk Road Seminar: Jung, Meaning, and Cognitive Transformation | Thank you for joining us live for this month's Silk Road Seminar, featuring Kevin Lu and Anderson Todd. Kevin Lu is a Jungian psychoanalyst, lecturer, and scholar whose work bridges analytical psychology, philosophy, and religious studies. As a senior lecturer at the University of Essex, his research explores symbolic thought, depth psychology, myth, and individuation, with a focus on reintegrating Jungian wisdom into contemporary conversations around meaning and transformation. Anderson Todd is an award-winning lecturer at the University of Toronto, teaching in Cognitive Science and Buddhism as well as Psychology and Mental Health. With a background spanning philosophy, complexity science, and transformative practice, Anderson brings clarity and rigor to questions of wisdom cultivation, existential resilience, and mental health. Together, Kevin and Anderson bring a rare synergy of psychological depth and cognitive precision to the Silk Road Seminar, offering insight into meaning-making and transformation in the modern world. Silk Road Seminars are live, hour-long conversations hosted by John Vervaeke, weaving together ideas from cognitive science, philosophy, psychology, and wisdom traditions. Each seminar is streamed live on YouTube and followed by an exclusive Q&A where participants can engage directly with John and the guests. To be entered onto the guest list for the live Q&A, sign up at the Gamma Tier (or above) on The Lectern: https://lectern.teachable.com/p/lectern-lounge University students (undergraduate through doctoral level) receive free access to the Q&A. Email proof of student status to: ethan@vervaekefoundation.org Students added to the guest list also receive access to previous Silk Road Seminars. If you'd like to support John's work through a goodwill donation, consider joining the Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke John Vervaeke online: https://johnvervaeke.com/ https://twitter.com/drjohnvervaeke https://www.youtube.com/@johnvervaeke https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke | — | ||||||
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