Equiosity

This is Part 1 of a five part conversation with Dr Susan Friedman. Dr Friedman is one of our favorite guests on this podcast. She’s a professor emeritus in the psychology department at Utah State University. She’s been a long-time member of the Clicker Expo Faculty and she runs the very popular on-line course Behavior Works: Learning and Living with Animals. In part 1 Susan shares with us her most recent project - the Behavior Works Zoo School which you can read about at BWZS.org. This four part conversation grew out of a wonderful afternoon’s conversation that I had with Susan in the Fall of 2025. I had just finished editing the podcast interview that Dominique and I did with Rick Hester and Amy Schilz from the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo. I was telling Susan how much I had enjoyed the conversation and how impressed I was with both Rick and Amy. They are both part of Susan’s Behavior Works team. Susan’s mentoring was very much in evidence, and that prompted a great discussion about teams and team building. I knew our conversation had to be a podcast. The timing for recording this conversation could not have been more perfect. Susan and her Behavior Works Team has just launched their newest project - Zoo School. So in this episode in addition to talking about why teams matter, Susan introduces us to the Behavior Works Zoo School.

This is Part 4 of a conversation with Lucy Butler of River Haven Animal Sanctuary, and Dr Stephanie Jones and her grad student, Sofia Abuin In Part 1 we talked about the common links between teaching people and working with animals. We talked about coercion, control, and most importantly about empathy. In part 2 Stephanie described a pilot study she and her colleagues set up at the River Haven Animal Sanctuary. Shaping can be incredibly challenging to teach well. Often people refer to the science and the art of training. What Stephanie and her colleague Michael Yencha wanted to investigate is what makes up the “art” part of training? Is there a way to tease this apart so it becomes less mystery and more approachable through science? In Part 3 Stephanie reminded us that the goal of this research project was to help new trainers shape well. That was the reason for the latency criterion. They were using it to judge when to shift criteria. They weren’t looking at any other aspects of shaping. They weren’t looking at the details of the reinforcement strategy or the set up of the environment. They weren’t saying those elements aren’t important, but they wanted to focus on this one component and give it a good rule. The question was how do you get robust interventions that aren’t influenced by implementer errors? Even in art there is technique. If you give people this rule, does that mean learners will be better off because shapers are able to minimize exposure to extinction without even needing to know what it means to minimize exposure to extinction? Can new trainers shape well even when they are lacking experience and a broad theoretical background? We ended Part 3 at a point where Stephanie and Sofia had to leave, but we continued the conversation with Lucy Butler. In this episode we talk about the latency rule Stephanie and her colleagues used in the study with the goats and contrasted that with Loopy Training. Whether we’re talking about science or art, there are principles that guide us towards better results. Lucy suggested that instead of trying to design a study that teases apart the elements that lead to better shaping results, it might be more useful to watch a master teacher train to see what they do. Dominique shared a quote from Learning and Behavior by Paul Chance The rate at which training proceeds depends upon the skill of the trainer So yes, it does make sense to look at skilled trainers. We had some fun talking about the backstage pass presentation at the up-coming March Clicker Expo. For some unknown reason I agreed to participate. Instead of working with a horse, I’ll be training a dog. It should be interesting to say the least. It is certainly interesting to think about the different presenters at the clicker Expo. When we watch, for example, Ken Ramirez train or Michelle Pouliot, or Kay Laurence, we see very different training styles. But what are the commonalities?