Exploring Unschooling

We’re back with the fourth episode in our series in which we’re working our way through Pam’s book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. Today, we’re continuing our exploration of the deschooling phase of the journey with stage eight: Accepting the Value of All Experiences. We’ve questioned our beliefs about learning and about parenting. Now we’re moving beyond judgement. As our understanding of this new world of unschooling grows, we are drawn to digging deeper. Using the lens of unschooling, we’re exploring what it means to be a human being living fully in the world, with all of the ups and downs. We had a great time diving in. We hope you find this episode helpful on your unschooling journey! Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE Learn more about Pam’s book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide. We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us. Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more! Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT PAM: Hello, everyone. I’m Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully. And I am joined today by my co-hosts Anna Brown and Erika Ellis. ANNA, ERIKA: Hello.  PAM: And we are back with another episode in our A Field Guide series. We are working our way through my book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide, which is framed around the hero’s journey and is a weave of myths, contemporary stories and tales from my own journey. We are now deep in the deschooling phase. In the last episode of this series, episode 413, we dug into some of the popular conventional paradigms about parenting, and we found more truths buried there. And as we continue our journey on the road of trials, we’re exploring the idea of accepting the value of all experiences. If you’re newer to unschooling, and this is your first time exploring these truths, you’re likely dancing with these ideas intellectually to understand what they mean and some of their further reaching implications. If you’ve been unschooling for a while and feel like you already intellectually embrace these ideas and have been bringing them into your family’s lives, now’s the time to peel back some more layers to build more connections and context around them, strengthening your web of understanding with your personal experiences, building your wisdom as you move towards believing them in your bones as your own truth. Now we are well into the deschooling phase. In the last two stages, we challenged those conventional pieces of wisdom around learning, like embracing curiosity rather than following curriculum, and parenting, replacing control with connection as our relationship dynamic with our kids. These stages often have lots of twists and turns as we bring these ideas into life, life into our family, and see how things unfold, right? Again, not about right or wrong. We’re gaining experience, we’re seeing how things happen. So this episode, which is stage eight of the journey, we’re exploring the idea of accepting the value of all experiences. In other words, we’re moving beyond judgment. Now here we go. As our understanding of this new world of unschooling grows, we are drawn to digging deeper. Using the lens of unschooling, we’re exploring what it means to be a human being living fully in the world. So Joseph Campbell calls this stage the meeting with the goddess. So in myths and stories, the hero must be spiritually prepared to meet this revered goddess, the universal mother, who represents the whole cycle of life. To meet her in her true form is to rise to her challenge and be able to contemplate the entire birth death cycle that she presents with equanimity with calmness and composure, the ups and the downs, the good and the bad, cosmic creation and destruction, to be able to hold both of these seemingly opposing ideas, opposites in your mind with comparable appreciation. So in the book, I shared that Kali from Hindu mythology is a great example of the kind of goddess you might meet in this stage. As a goddess of time, creation and destruction, she represents both the benevolence of a caring, comforting mother, and the fury of an aggressive punishing one, as well as the expanse of time that contains them both. So, when we look at Kali’s right side, we see good and on the left, we see bad. That’s what she represents. And when we are ready to grasp the truth that lies at the heart of this stage, we see her full nature, both. We see her in full. And we’ve been preparing to meet our Kali with all that we’ve learned so far on our unschooling journey. Like how on earth are we going to link those together? Here we go. We started to see the connections play out between our new perspective on things like we talked about in the last Field Guide episode, like why quitting things isn’t bad, right? Why saying yes more to our kids isn’t bad. Why are kids seemingly doing nothing is not bad. We’ve noticed times when we didn’t stop our child from making a choice that we feared might go badly. And they went on to happily engage with the activity. So by giving our days the time to unfold more naturally, we’ve seen new and interesting things take root in the wake of destruction and upset many times. From a fallen block tower springs a taller, sturdier one. From highly anticipated plans falling through emerges, say, a spontaneous trip to the park, or a cuddly movie day, which turns out to be just what was needed. Without knowing it, we have been thoroughly preparing ourselves for this meeting. And for me, I think the key shift has been your mantra, Anna, there’s plenty of time. The trick was giving moments more time and space to unfold. That allowed me to see how seemingly good and bad moments actually weave together that they’re not like just separate single incidents. They’re not like these distinct events where I can tell you that like, oh, we had five good moments today and seven bad moments. So that was a losing day, or if they were the opposite, that was a winning day, right? To see the fuller, bigger picture, see how this is our life and, and the good and bad were weaving together. But that block tower one is just something I remember, you know, one kid running up and knocking it over. And like just those pieces, think of your own stories in your own life. Think back to when you’ve seen those things go from, from bad something upsetting to working out well, and vice versa. It’s all so very interesting, I think. ANNA: Yeah, it is. And I think Kali is such an interesting representation for this phase, because many people are very afraid to get Kali in a reading because they associate her with destruction. But yes, both pieces are there, creation and destruction. And it fits here so well, because how I see that destruction part is really just a sweeping away of old paradigms, creating a clean slate, allowing us to build a stronger foundation when that tower of our ideas are knocked down, and a new framework to support where we are now with all of this new information that we’re taking in. And it really can’t be built on top of the old. We can take what we’ve learned with us. So it’s not that we’re leaving everything behind.  But letting go of the fear around letting go of the old and embracing a new paradigm allows us to fully open to all it can bring us. And a lot of discomfort comes, I think, in straddling the old and new, because we aren’t actually fully in either at that point. And releasing judgment was such a key part of my journey. You know, in my 20s, I loved a good debate and was quite adept at it. And as I started to value connection over winning, I realized how disconnecting the judgment was. I will never know what’s best for another person, even my child. So any judgment of them or their actions actually just keeps me from learning about them, who they are, how they want to move through the world, what their priorities are. And honestly, it keeps my own learning stagnant. If I’m so sure I know what’s best, how do I see a new way, a way that might serve me better in this moment where I am right now. And I love the tally piece that you mentioned because I think it’s a really slippery slope. If we are focused on categorizing the day or the event as good or bad, we’re missing the nuance that exists in every day, every event, because there’s always going to be both, they exist together. And while our brain can like this idea of categorizing as a shortcut, it really takes us out of being present in each moment. And it can end up dictating our emotions around it. So have we had a good week? Okay, then I can feel happy and feel good. I’m a great parent, we’ve done it this week. But then if this week has been bad, then there must be something wrong with me, and I should have done something differently. That type of judgment and kind of surface level ranking just doesn’t serve us personally or relationally. And it can really keep us stuck in this yucky cycle, instead of learning and growing together. And so that is something to watch for that like, oh, this was good and so now this means X, you know, whereas again, I think the idea of plenty of time really does help just let things unfold, and not getting attached to those pieces, we just learn so much more. ERIKA: Yes, I like this phase, because it really feels to me like having gained some perspective, and maybe some maturity, after making a whole lot of huge mental shifts and paradigm shifts we’ve been working through in the last few episodes. And so I just think life is so much more nuanced than there’s one right answer, or there’s one right way to do something. And I think we may absorb that message in school that there is a right answer or one right path. But it’s so much more real and true to living life in this world to be in this gray area, there are infinite possibilities, there are infinite paths, we’re not sure how it’s going to play out. And so I feel a lot more grounded and safe when I have that perspective, and I’m not clinging so strongly to this is good, this is bad. I also feel a lot more generous and nonjudgmental towards other people as well. Because I can recognize, we’re just all doing our best in each moment to meet our own needs and just figure out what’s going to work best for us. And we’re all different. And I don’t need to judge others. And I just feel like it’s a grounding place to be, when we get to this stage. PAM: Yeah. Oh, I love that. Okay, so the next aspect we want to explore around the idea of accepting the value of all experiences is moving beyond this is good and bad. So in the book, I share a quote that’s usually attributed to Alexander Graham Bell. When one door closes, another opens. But we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the one which has opened for us. I think that succinctly describes life before this encounter with the goddess, right? We don’t realize the connection between destruction and creation between good and bad on that continuum of time. So this is the wisdom that the stories of Kali and other cosmic mother goddesses are meant to convey, rather than being tossed around by the ups and downs of life, like that whole roller coaster image, we now see the value of and the connection between those moments. So as we’ve been paying attention on our journey, giving things time and space to unfold, which you hear us talking about all the time on the podcast, we’ve soon experienced the cycle and had time to learn that trying to rush through the down times doesn’t work. We can’t pry open a door that doesn’t want to give. We’ve learned that doesn’t mean passively sitting back and waiting. It means being attentive, just like from that quote, right? Maybe knocking on a door, wandering the hallway, noticing the door that’s slightly ajar, hearing the faint click of a doorknob being unlocked. Eventually, something happens and things move forward, maybe in unexpected ways. But in my experience, often in more interesting ways than we had first imagined. That was us looking at that door, that’s where we thought we were going. That’s where we thought things were going to be. But when we there’s just so many more ways that life can unfold.  I actually really learned this more through observing my kids’ lives in action. So often, when I was able to stretch my comfort zones and follow them where they were eager to go, the door they wanted to go through, I saw them learning so much, both when things went well and when they didn’t. There’s that good/bad.  I was humbled by how often my initial predictions were just flat out wrong. Thank goodness I kept them to myself because I wasn’t ready quite yet to admit how often I was wrong. But without me clouding their experience with my judgment, they could more clearly and directly learn what was most valuable to them in the moment, because that’s where their mind was. That’s where their whole body was. I want to be in this moment, and just see how it plays out. So as my wish to understand my children’s perspective, and choices grew, my need to judge them truly faded. And with that, so did so many of our conflicts, and our trust in each other grew. And again, remember that not judging isn’t about giving in or giving up or saying do whatever you want, right? It’s about engaging more deeply but with openness. The image that helps me is beginner’s mind. What can I learn here? That’s what this stage is encouraging us to discover. It’s about seeing the value of all aspects of life, moving through the bad moments with as much awareness as the good ones, not covering your eyes and trying to ignore them until they pass. Because, as you see, through all the ups and downs, all these moments are integral to our lives. They all mean something. They all help us learn something. ERIKA: Yeah, that’s a huge shift when we can stop labeling things as good and bad. It’s just more complicated than that. And I think our judging tends to influence what happens next. And so I don’t, I certainly don’t want to label my day as a bad day, especially at the beginning, which I do hear people do that sometimes. Because a day has all kinds of moments in it. And we don’t know what’s going to happen next. And by labeling it bad, I think we’re just setting ourselves up for well, now it is going to be bad because we said that. But we learned from it all. In some of the meditation courses I’ve participated in, I really came to understand and value that idea of equanimity. It’s a power that we can cultivate, to be able to just witness the turbulent nature of life and still see the bigger picture. It feels like not getting swept up by every little thing that’s happening. And it helps keep me going and moving towards the things that I want. Whereas if I am getting swept up, it makes it so I’m so overwhelmed that I can’t even face what’s happening or make decisions or move forward. And so I feel like if we can move away from judging ourselves, judging others, judging all the moments as good or bad, I think there’s just so much more potential and so many more possibilities in front of us. To me, it has a very spacious feeling. ANNA: Yeah, I really like that visual, witnessing the turbulent nature of life, but not getting swept away. I think that therein lies that practice of equanimity and just presence. I feel like the categorizing that I mentioned earlier keeps us from really appreciating the nuances of all the experiences. Each experience brings with it a wealth of knowledge and understanding about ourselves, about each other, about the world. And the idea of releasing good or bad always brings to mind for me the Taoist farmer story. I’ll post a better version in the show notes. But the idea is that there’s a farmer who has a series of events happen to his family at each event, the village wants to weigh in with, Oh, what bad luck you’re having? Or Oh, what good luck you’re having? And each time the farmer answers maybe. His horse runs away, bad luck. Maybe. His horse returns with six more wild horses. Good luck. Maybe. His son breaks his leg on a new horse. Bad luck. Maybe. His son doesn’t have to go to war when all the other young men do. Good luck. Maybe. As the story unfolds, you see how something first appears is never the whole of the story. And if we can step away from preconceived notions and judging everything as good or bad, it opens us to more nuances, to new paths, to new ideas. Even just bringing “maybe” into our mind when something happens can slow us down and help us widen our view. Because we get caught up with the quick snap judgment, and it creates this ripple that really narrows our focus, and keeps us from seeing the bigger picture. And that’s the thing with good or bad, it is just this narrowing of the focus. And so if instead, I acknowledge that what is happening just is, I’m more open to seeing the opportunities for growth and learning, I’m more open to actually experiencing it. And I guess that’s a big piece for me, because judging really takes us out of the moment and puts us back into our head. We’re categorizing, this is a problem, this is not good, this is bad, end of story. But there’s no end to the story. Each bit of life leads to another and weaves into this larger tapestry. And with openness and willingness, we can create this massive tapestry that keeps us learning and growing throughout our life. And once we understand that for ourselves, we can see that our kids are doing exactly the same. They are on their own unique journey, building their own unique, massive tapestry. PAM: I love that piece. And the word maybe could be so helpful if you’re navigating this stage right now. And just put a little card that says maybe somewhere where you see it. It’s just a little reminder that judging something in that moment, maybe you’re right but maybe not. Let’s let things unfold.  Okay, so the next aspect we want to explore around the idea of accepting the value of all experiences is the epiphany moment. We’ve talked before about how we often understand things intellectually before we feel them as truth in our bones. And in the book, I liken the intellectual understanding as puzzle pieces we have floating around in our minds, right? They each make sense to us on an intuitive level, but they haven’t really quite solidly clicked into place. So as you begin this stage of moving beyond judgment, you may not yet have enough puzzle pieces to grasp what this not judging thing might look like in the bigger picture. And then at some point, the piece appears that kind of changes everything. The moment that sparks this epiphany, as with so many other insights on our unschooling journey, truly might be quite ordinary. It doesn’t need to be a special puzzle piece. It’s just the puzzle piece for you. This is the one, for some reason, that gives you the flash of insight. All of a sudden, you can see the picture you’re building, and how the pieces are going to fit together. So, the naivete, it’s so easy to write, less so much to say. But this naive urge to judge something becomes clear, and our understanding of the value of all experiences, good, bad, otherwise, medium, whatever word you’re using, or words you’re using to judge things, rises out of the confusing free-for-all that we first envisioned at the thought of moving beyond. If we’re not judging things, everything is just, everything’s good then? What does that mean?  From this turning point, this epiphany, our perspective shifts. We stop desperately trying to avoid or escape bad moments. Understanding that they, while, absolutely not what we’ve hoped for, are just moments. And, as you often talk about, Anna, we grow to trust ourselves to handle whatever kind of moment comes our way. A deeper sense of confidence begins to take root, as we more mindfully engage in all the moments of our days. And, we more clearly see our children living this trust and confidence. I think it’s something humans are born knowing. But, we lose track of it growing up when we’re immersed in judgment, shame, and fear. And those being used to control us. Going back to that last episode of Control and Connection. And, it hits us now. We’ve got this puzzle piece. Life isn’t about trying to avoid the bad moments, so we can finally live our good lives. And, we’re just like, I want this good life. I want this good life. We have been living our full lives, our rich lives, all along.  ANNA: I think there’s just such a beautiful freedom in recognizing that life is going to contain it all. It’s not about optimizing. It isn’t something we can control. There is not one path that will lead to everything being perfect. I think, as the Buddhists would say, the suffering is in the attachment to that outcome. And so, to me, it really plays out. If I’m gripping so tightly to control, thinking I can somehow make the right choice, and then everything will always be great, it feels so dysregulating when it doesn’t happen that way, when I’ve tried so hard, and then the mark has been missed. Again, that goal that we talked about a little bit earlier. If instead, I’m just open and curious, and greeting things as they come, be them obstacles or gifts, with the same open energy, I can stay regulated, and I can find the growth available to me in all of those areas, in both, in obstacles and the beautiful gifts of life. And that’s where I got to the place that you mentioned. The epiphany for me was seeing how well we worked together, how we survived whatever came our way. We had tools to get through it, and that doesn’t take away the sting of disappointment or loss when it happens, because it still can sting. But our relationships were solid. Nothing felt shaky there. And from that foundation, the bumps felt more manageable. So, instead of the acrobatics of trying to miss the bumps, my focus was on strengthening our connection and our communication, so that we could roll over the bumps together. That was something that I could actually influence. Attempting to stop the bumps never worked, no matter how hard I tried. It’s outside of my control, and it ends up taking me out of the moment, and I’m actually not using the time or energy to strengthen my relationships. I’m over here juggling and trying to do something perfectly. And I think this can be really hard at first, though, because we really have been taught that there are answers, that things fit nicely into good and bad and right and wrong. And so, when something so widely accepted, like school, isn’t working for your family, it can feel very intense. We become invested in finding the next right answer, but it’s not about that. Life is about nuance, growth, exploration. It’s messier and more unpredictable than that. But again, I think once we embrace that and understand what we can control, which is basically just how we show up and who we are, there is a freedom, a release that happens. It opens you up to see the beauty in all of it, the beauty and the value in all experiences. So, back to the theme. ERIKA: I love that, and I know it feels hard sometimes, because it really does feel like maybe I can control everything, and then I’ll know how it’s going to turn out, and it’ll all turn out perfectly. But life shows me that it doesn’t work like that. But that’s not failing. That’s just life. And so, I can connect with other people, because we all are sharing this human experience of all of these parts. Life has it all. And if someone in my life seems unable to see that for themselves, I know that’s just where they are on their own journey. I don’t have to pull them to where I am. Life has it all, the ups and the downs, and we’re just going to roll with it. If someone’s not ready for that, I can’t get them there. It’s one of those things that I think just has to click for us in time, and I guess that’s why we’re calling it the epiphany here. So, yeah, I love that. PAM: It has to click for us. I love that. I love that.  And, okay, so this last aspect that we want to dive into is embracing the value of time.  And just imagine, time is what we’ve been talking about to see how good and bad are actually linked together, and they don’t need to be judged. They’re things that happen. They’re things that have happened, and this led to this and maybe to this. Anyway, I had mentioned earlier that I think the key shift for me in understanding this stage of the journey was really in your mantra, Anna, there’s plenty of time. This is the piece that I wanted to bring out because there’s two aspects of time for me that came to me. One was giving moments more time and space to unfold. That’s what we’ve been talking about. Most often, we don’t need to solve moments, right? I don’t need to ride the high of good as long as I can, and I don’t need to fix the bad as fast as I can. That is just something that fades alongside the urge to judge them, that this is what comes with the epiphany. But the other was more time to ponder things. There’s a deeper level of understanding that comes with continuing to poke and prod our thoughts, to look at our ideas from this way and that way, up close, far away, sideways. Giving myself that time and space allowed me to see how seemingly good and bad moments actually weave together.  It’s just the up and down and in and out of playing with things. It’s like, oh, it was so useful to me to recognize when I get stuck in something, right? I need to change how I’m looking at something. And truly, if you are persistent, you will reach deeper levels of understanding, moving from the comprehension, if this is kind of your first engagement with these kinds of ideas, that makes some sense to experience. Then you see these ideas in action. So often for us, it’s seeing them in action with our kids, right? And then to the truth, you’ve seen them play out multiple times in multiple circumstances, and you’re starting to see how they might actually apply to you as well. And this stage is just a great example of this. If discovering the truth around learning and parenting in the last two stages was akin to adding new landmarks to your map, this stage was about taking the time to explore them more fully, eventually revealing like the secluded trails that connect them. We also get our first taste of the fruits of this inner journey. Releasing that need to be constantly judging things is just so freeing. I mean, the curiosity that bubbles up from that, it was just life changing for me. Time is a priceless and integral part of both our journey to understand and embrace unschooling, but also the practice of unschooling itself forevermore. We’ve gone from intellectually understanding that life encompasses good and bad moments to experiencing the learning about the world and about ourselves that is found in both kinds of moments, to embracing the truth that all moments, good, bad, and all manner in between moments have value in our lives. We are learning through the ups and downs, through the good and bad. This is life or as Campbell describes it, which I thought was cool, the nature of being. Yeah, that lands for me. ERIKA: That’s beautiful. I love that. I can definitely find myself clinging to time when things are feeling good, and just wishing it would slow down. But really the only way to slow down time that I’ve found is to get really present, and take note of all the things that are happening in this moment. There are all kinds of feelings, experiences, things to see, people to be with. And so I don’t typically wish away time even when things are hard. I think it’s a human impulse to do that though, like I just wish this day was over. But I think my personality specifically tends to cling to time rather than hope it goes by faster. But I have found there’s plenty of time to be just such a soothing phrase. It’s a reminder for me to just relax, let go of my intensity about finding that solution or getting to a certain place. I mean, even physically getting to a place, we have to get to whatever, get to the party on time. And I love how we all hear Anna’s voice in our minds with that reminder. It really helps me move out of that kind of tunnel vision and to a more grounded place where I can see what’s actually in front of me and make decisions about what to do next. And even just taking a breath can be so helpful too, just to settle down my nervous system. There’s plenty of time. We’ve got this. And just let me be present in this moment. ANNA:  Yeah. Oh my goodness. How many times do we remind each other that we’ve got this during any given week and that there’s plenty of time?! It really does calm my nervous system and sometimes it feels cheesy to type or hear. But it also calms my nervous system every time because it’s true because we have a history of having gotten it. And so I know we will keep doing it, but I do think it’s fun to think about time. It’s just such an interesting concept and it can drive so many feelings and behaviors, or I guess maybe more accurately our reactions and interplay with time drives the feelings and behavior, but understanding that helps us see the choice, right? So time can seem to be crawling and then it can fly by in a blink and can often feel out of our control. But I like the pieces that have been pulled out, like the idea of giving space to a moment, not needing to rush in with solutions or move quickly through it. I think we do that sometimes because we don’t like to sit in discomfort. But that discomfort has messages for us. It’s not a scary place. It can be a place of growth and we miss that if we’re rushing through it, just like we miss the joy present in those small moments, as well, if we’re always rushing ahead to the next thing. And the unfolding became such an important concept to me. I was a planner. I still am, but with a lighter, more playful grip. Allowing moments and days to unfold, I started to see this organic flow that was always present, a flow I had really missed in my tightly controlled timelines. And I started to feel a real difference in my body. The tightness that I was literally carrying as I was trying to plan and control all the things versus the softness, the openness in my body when we just allowed a day to unfold. And that learning could happen in a moment when I stopped talking and observed.  These things were not easy for me. That is why ‘there’s plenty of time’ is such an important mantra for me, because I could feel myself relax with that reminder. And it is not my natural state of being. I am wanting to do, do, do, maximize, go, do. There’s not enough time. But boy, it really helps ground me. And then the part you mentioned, Pam, about time to ponder, that was also really critical. I had to slow down and trust in the time to find the deeper layers, to better understand myself and the people around me. And it doesn’t happen overnight. It happens with an intentional commitment to take the time to feel the feelings, to dig into the layers, to understand the connections, the reactions, the context, the ideas that we’re holding on to. I don’t think you can grow, have growth without time to be in that space. And so what I learned about myself was that my kind of go, go, tight control and planning was really me trying to outrun some past trauma pieces and things I didn’t want to look at about myself, and maybe even about the world and the things around me. And slowing down felt really scary. But I really allowed myself space to feel the feelings and understand how my patterns from childhood were showing up now. And that was really the only way I could make changes and show up in new ways to be the person I wanted to be for my kids. So that shift is kind of what you’re talking about Pam, the ideas, they feel great, this kind of intellectual understanding. But it took me doing this slowed down work to really get to feel it in my bones and be able to act on it from my bones versus just this intellectual understanding. PAM: Yeah. Oh, and just to wrap things up, as I was writing the book and really thinking about the phases. I could see how those three ideas came together. That’s why I love choosing Kali, here’s a goddess who is time, creation, and destruction, those three things good, bad and unfolding, are just so integral to growing as a human being to understand what’s going on at some level. There are always more layers, as we talked about, but it’s just fascinating for me to see how these things so beautifully weave together as part of this tapestry. I love that image, too.  Okay, so thanks so much to everyone for joining us. We hope you enjoyed this dive into the third stage of the de-schooling phase of our journey, as we explored the idea of accepting the value of all experiences.  And we invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network to continue this conversation because we love talking about this stuff. It’s a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents, a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional unschooling ideas, and just start to explore and talk about what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. Your first month is free, so you can get a sense of whether the community is a good fit for you. We are excited to welcome you. To learn more and join us, just follow the link in the show notes or go to livingjoyfully.ca and choose Network in the menu. Wishing everyone a lovely day. Thanks so much, you guys. Bye.

We invited a panel of three unschooling parents to join us to talk about what happens when unschooling kids choose school. Ari, Terri, and Kinsey are all members of the Living Joyfully Network and they all have children who have chosen to try school. They shared about what led to the decision, how the expectations of school affected them and their families, what they and their kids learned from their experiences, and how their foundation of unschooling helped them along the way. It was really interesting to hear about their unique paths and we hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey! Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us. Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more! Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ERIKA: Hello, everyone. I’m Erika Ellis from Living Joyfully, and I’m joined by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia, as well as our special guests today, Ari, Terri, and Kinsey. Hi, everyone. So, I am really excited for this conversation. We invited Ari, Terri, and Kinsey, who are all Living Joyfully Network members, to join us today to talk about what happens when unschooling kids choose to go to school. There are lots of reasons why kids might be interested in trying school. And if they do, it can be a different experience than we might expect, because they’re making that choice themselves. But since people are different, and so are schools, we’ve seen a really wide range of experiences. And so thank you all for joining us to share a bit about your family’s experience. To get us started, can you briefly introduce yourself and share just a bit about your family? And maybe we could start with Ari. ARI: Sure. Hi, I’m Ari. I have three daughters. They are 10, 5, and 7. And we live in Portland, Oregon. We’ve been unschooling for about four years now. And this past year, my 10-year-old decided to go to school. She attended our local public school for fourth grade. ERIKA: Okay. And Terri?  TERRI: We live in Swan River, Manitoba, quite a small town. There are four of us, me and my husband, and our two kids, a boy and a girl, Felix and Stella. And Stella decided to go into school this last year, into grade four as well. We live out in the country. It’s nice and quiet out here. And we have various interests that we have going on.  ERIKA: Thank you. And Kinsey? KINSEY:  Awesome. Hey, yes, I’m Kinsey. I live in Lubbock, Texas. And I have two children, Riley, who’s 15, and Emmy, who’s 12. Emmy chose to try school in 2024, and was there for a little while. So yeah, we had some experience there at our local public school.  PAM: Nice. That’s very awesome. Okay, so now let’s get into a little bit more of the details. We’re very excited to hear everyone’s stories. We would love to know how did your child’s choice to go to school come about? And then how did it play out for your family? Certainly like at the beginning, as you guys were adjusting and getting this kind of settled. And would you like to start, Terri?  TERRI: Sure, sure. I’m guessing like maybe two years ago, it was coming up to when we could have enrolled her for grade three. And Stella had started asking about school, saying she really wanted to go. And we were, I guess at that point, we homeschooled from when she was young, from the very beginning, and then slowly relaxed into unschooling. So we’d maybe be unschooling for about a year at that point. It felt like we had made this choice to not do school, me and my husband anyway, to not do school. So, it was very tough to wrap our heads around, could she go to school? My husband was very against it. He doesn’t mind me saying he’s like, I said no, he said outright no to her. Outright no to me. He said, we’ve chosen this lifestyle. And this just goes against everything we believe in about the school system. And so that was fair. That was his perspective. And I had that thought as well. But I was kind of keeping it to myself, because I could also see with my child that she’s very, when she knows something or wants something, she knows it through and through, no one will shake her, right? And she’s very strong that way. And I could see that if we held with that no, and held with what we believed was right over what she wanted, that it would be really, really bad for our relationship. And so, my husband and I talked about it. And I just kind of brought that to him that she’s just going to dig her heels in and want it more. And then if one day we let her, maybe she won’t feel comfortable to come to us if it’s not right. So, we’ve had those conversations. Like I said, it took like a year, because that was grade three. And then finally, when it came back around to springtime, we had all talked about it and said, you know, yes, let’s try this out. Let’s try for grade four, there’s really only two schools you can choose from here, either French immersion or English speaking. We could have done French immersion, that was an option. But she was very much against that. So, we enrolled her and also really did lots of work, reassuring her that there would be no, I told you so, you can come home anytime. You can tell us if it’s difficult, but that it was a lot of work. It was a year of work getting to that place. And yeah, it worked out in the end. So, that’s how we came to it. PAM: Very cool. Very cool. Kinsey, what was your experience? KINSEY: Let’s see, school is something that Emmy has mentioned over the years, at times, just something that she wanted to try. I think it’s part of just culture, it’s everywhere. People online talk about experiences at school, good and bad. I think it was kind of like a social experiment for her. Just to see what it was like. So, before we moved here back, we live with my parents in my childhood home, in my hometown. And so she went to the public school that I grew up going to. And still with a lot of staff and stuff that I remember from when I was there, or knew from there, or that knew my parents, that worked with my parents at the school. So, we had a lot of resources, which was great, really helpful. She went up there and was really excited. She was really excited to try it and did okay for the first couple weeks. And then it was like, okay, I’ve seen what this is like and I’m finished with this. But she did not stop going to school, then she would actually stay on and for the rest of the semester, which was pretty challenging for her. Are we going in depth of school experiences right now or how it played out? PAM: Right now, this is just the choice to go to school. Let’s just focus on that piece. KINSEY: Just trying it, I think just trying it. And at the time too, her dad was encouraging her to go. PAM: Makes sense, makes sense. And Ari?  ARI: My daughter would mention school a little bit in the few months before she made her decisive statement that she was going. But usually, it would come up like, hey, I think I want to try school. And we would say, okay, and then it would fall away for weeks or months.  And then there was one time she had been spending a lot of time during the summer with our neighbor and her good buddy, who goes to school. And the two girls were together one day and they both came up. And my daughter was like, I’m going to school this year, or I want to go to school this year. And something about it was like, this is for real. And so I thought maybe this is actually going to happen. We were three or four weeks from the start of school. So it all felt kind of sudden and there might be a lot to prepare for. But we embraced it. We were like, okay, this is your choice. And so I just enrolled her. And that was pretty straightforward. I think she had, she knew quite a few friends through her soccer team. And that was a big draw. She wanted to spend more time with them. I would say that, in that nine year old year, there were signs of kind of itching for more with life. A little bit less satisfied with our co-op, our little homeschool playgroup type things. And I could see she was just kind of reaching for more. And so I viewed this as an extension of that. So, she started school and really enjoyed it. So that’s where we were. ANNA: Okay, so I’m going to ask about expectations. I feel like school adds some expectations, because they have a way of doing things that’s very different from the way that we all would have been doing it in your families. So how did you handle that change of expectations? And how did your child, did they roll with it? Did they have questions about it? Was it hard to kind of balance those two? And I think, Kinsey, I’ll start with you for this one.  KINSEY: Okay, let’s see, expectations. Clearly the schedule part of it was super new and different. So those kinds of expectations, the absences, you know, being there, attendance, there was an expectation that took me a while to embrace. I know how it works. It still took a little bit to maybe get used to those expectations being a part of our life.  And the communication expected between me and the school about what was going on with my child. If she wanted to miss a day, is it going to be an excused absence or not, and stuff like that. And keeping track. Thankfully, our school here doesn’t assign homework. That would have been quite difficult, I think, even worse.  When Emmy was excited to go to school and motivated, I was excited for her to go to school and motivated to help her with that, because she wanted to be there and wanted to go. Even getting up and getting prepared and getting her stuff that she needed, and making connections even before and all that stuff. It was really fine. It was when she was finished with the experience and couldn’t stop. Just because of what was going on in our family at the time. We were going through a divorce at the time. So that really complicated things. And so she wasn’t able to just come right out. At the beginning of her trying it, that was the expectation. And that was the plan for her to just be able to try it. And then when/if the expectations were too much of a mismatch, or she got her curiosity filled, she got the information she needed to know, or whatever experience, she could come out. And just because of the divorce and the impending case, it wasn’t that easy. And so for the rest of the semester, it was quite challenging to be with the outside expectations that we no longer wanted to be a part of. So that’s just a little bit more complicated and our specific situation. But she pushed through. And I hated it. Honestly.  But yeah, there were expectations. It was really interesting. Oh yeah, I forget that I need to tell people what’s going on in our family, I don’t know why she’s not there, and she’s not going to be there. And if she’s going to be back tomorrow or not. And to report everything to that authority figure. It can be challenging, for me anyway.  ANNA: Yeah. KINSEY: And once when I was there as well. I had a great school experience. I really did great at school. I was there at that school my whole 12 years. It was fine. It’s going back again, on this side, was interesting. ANNA: I bet. Oh, my goodness. All right, Terri, how about you? TERRI: Stella was all ready to meet all the expectations at the start. Because in something I forgot to mention earlier, when she was talking about wanting to go to school, we’re trying to figure out what she was looking for. Is it the friends? Is it structure? No, she just wanted that school experience. So, she was making her lunch the night before and setting her clothes out and getting to bed on time, which is well on time. She’d say, Okay, I need to be in bed between nine and 10. So, she would set her time and she was there. And then you come up with, a month in or so, some uncomfortable situations. Which kind of leads into what’s expected of me. She had a stuffy nose one morning, and she didn’t want to go to school. And I knew the night before she’d been up to about like 11 or 12. And so my mind went straight to that. She’s not sick enough to stay home. She stayed up too late. She should still go to school. That’s what my parents would have told me. And so there was a lot of work in just a space of 20 minutes one morning, where I was battling back and forth in my head. Make her go to school. No, don’t. But she doesn’t need to be going to school, but she should go to school. No, she doesn’t feel well. And finally, I just called it in. I said, she won’t be in she’s not feeling well. That’s it. And that became my go to anytime that she was just not feeling like going. Sorry, she won’t be in and she’s not feeling well. And that’s it. And what happened? Nothing bad happened. I was kind of like, Oh, someone’s going to call me,  someone’s going to find out. I’m going to be caught. So, that was a big expectation that I had to work through. Both of us. She’s always been kind of skeptical about anything or everyone to make sure if people are telling the truth. Well, not necessarily in a whole, but I think with teachers and adults at school, she’s slowly began to see, they’re saying one thing, but doing another, or they’re saying it here, but it doesn’t apply here, or it applies to kids, but it doesn’t apply to them. So she saw this gap. And over those months, anytime she came up to an expectation that was uncomfortable, she’d  be a little anxious about it. But then we move through it. And she’d be like, Oh, yeah, right.  I think it really broke her trust in just any adults, right? In people who aren’t in our important relationships. And, yeah, I think that was a lot. That was a big part of the journey for all of us, I think. And then she did, she did come out of school in March. I would say, all the way up to Christmas, she was pretty happy. And then by January, she started not to go. She was staying home more often, taking long weekends. Saying it was boring, or coming home with more stories like, Oh, the teacher said this, and I don’t agree with that. And, and then by March, she just didn’t go back after a weekend. She’s like, I don’t want to go back. ANNA: All right, Ari, what about you? And was it? Yeah, what did those expectations bring to the family? And really, even to the other members of the family, too? ARI: Yeah, I think this is so interesting, because we’re all talking about our expectations. And that was the biggest challenge. In our families, my expectation was that my daughter wouldn’t like it, or that it would be this environment that I had built up as this coercive, limiting world for her. And the reality wasn’t. It was a widening world for her. It was opening things up. So, I gradually let go of what school meant to me, as an unschooling parent, and just let her have her experience with it. So, that was a journey for me. I would say the expectations from school on to my daughter were similar to what Terri and Kinsey were talking about. The schedule, the showing up, we did have homework, a light homework assignment once a week. And my daughter took all those in stride. Like Terri’s daughter, she would make a lunch, she would get herself up, she would walk herself to school. After a couple weeks, she started doing that and walked herself home. So it was pretty cool to see, I could really celebrate that, this initiated independence.  It’s not like, you must do this, because we’re parents trying to help you be independent. It was just, I’m at a phase of life where I kind of want to take on more responsibility for myself. So that was fun to watch. I had another thought, but I can’t think of it right now.  ANNA: That’s okay. It may come to you. ERIKA: So, our next question is how you found that your unschooling principals helped you as you were supporting your child in their school experience? And maybe we could start with Terri. TERRI: Yeah, sure. Definitely the idea of holding it lightly, right from the very beginning. Making that decision, just really reminding myself constantly that it’s not a big deal. They can go, they cannot go. We can try to meet some of the expectations school puts on us, and we can let some slide. There’s so much choice. So holding things lightly, all the way through. That was a big one for me. And then also, open and curious, whenever we did meet one of those uncomfortable moments, she would come home from school and tell me something that happened. And you want to jump in and you want to fix it. And you want to suggest all sorts of things, all sorts of great ideas. And I really worked at just being, just shutting up, just being quiet. I let her say all of the things, maybe ask some more questions to help her tell me more. And then either I might make a suggestion, or I might ask her if she wants advice. And sometimes she just needed to let it all out. And then I just kept picking up little nuggets of information, right? And it just was more information for the next thing we ran into. So I think those are really, really helpful. Those are the two best ones.  Erika: Yes. How about Ari? ARI: Yeah, I totally agree. Holding it lightly, letting it be their journey, following their lead, kind of matching their energy, showing interest when they’re interested and listening, so much listening. Which I felt was a gift because you hear stories about kids coming home from school and not wanting to share anything with their parents. But that wasn’t my experience. My daughter would share what she learned, share what she did at recess. It just took a couple little questions sometimes for me. And she likes talking about it. So that was really nice.  I thought of what I was going to say, which was I love what Kinsey mentioned about matching expectations or something about, there’s a mismatch between the expectations on you and kind of what you’re willing to bring. That’s what I was always looking for.  And I think that’s what they are good at. They know that if there’s an outside expectation on them, they have a choice whether they want to stay in the situation and meet those because it’s worth it to them or go a different path. And so I liked looking for that and watching to see if my kids are paying attention to that as well. I also wanted to mention my daughter’s teacher, who was pretty spectacular. I felt like she met my daughter and all the kids on a person level. It was like she saw them as people to interact with, not just pupils to be an authority for. And I think that made a big difference for my daughter’s experience. My daughter liked interacting with her teacher. They would have conversations, they would joke. And that’s the kind of relationship with adults that she’s used to. So that was powerful. But there are also times when the teacher has to be a teacher or there’s expectations on them. And I remember with the report card once, I shared in the network, how my daughter received a report that was, my goal for her is to do her best even on tasks that she’s not very interested in. And it was like, huh, okay. Why? Because that’s an expectation that people should just do things that authority tells them to do. Is that really what we’re trying to instill in our young people? So, that’s just an interesting moment. And we talked about that. We still support you just following your interests.  Now I’ve taken us out of the question. Where were we? ERIKA: Unschooling principles. ARI: Yeah, I guess they all fit. Open and curious. Everybody’s voice is important. And your own opinion, your own initiative is the most important. ERIKA: And how about Kinsey?  KINSEY: So I think the most important principle for me was open and curious for sure. But also always making sure I was seeing things through Emmy’s eyes. Because school can be such a loaded experience. I think there can be a lot of outside pressure. We had so many people who were really, really, really happy that Emmy was going to school. So, I wanted to be really attentive and make sure that I was really seeing things from her perspective and hearing her and believing about what her experience was. And she had a great experience. The teacher, she had no problems at all with teachers. The teachers really loved her. She didn’t have problems with the work or anything like that. It was, again, I think it was just really a social experience for her, an experiment. And so and then when she was in a situation that she couldn’t easily get out of, it really became my focus to see things from her eyes and be her advocate in the best ways that I could. And keeping all my other unschooling principles. I don’t even really think about things as principles, I guess, it’s just kind of a way of being, a way of life. Tracking with her experience, prioritizing what that is, and the information that we’re getting from that, and responding in the most supportive ways that we can. Within the situation, the scenario that you’re in. I think that’s what I would say, just the ways of unschooling, the ways of being were helpful. Yeah, holding it lightly. Plenty of time, there’s plenty of time. It’s just all so helpful. It’s all so helpful. In what could have been a really highly pressurized or complicated experiment. ANNA: Yeah, it sounds like you were able to keep your connection, even though it did get harder because of just the outside context pieces.  KINSEY: That was the most important thing. PAM: Yeah. And I think like the thread through all of your perspectives on it feels different. Like you’re saying it is, it’s just a way of being. And that I feel like at the beginning, those were the expectations you guys were wrestling with a bit. You didn’t want to take on that authority figure, and take on those expectations wholeheartedly from school and then put them on your child. But that you were processing through all the things with them and helping them explore the things, the challenges there and the expectations they wanted to choose to take. Like you were saying Ari, sometimes it’s hard, or it may be an unexpected thing. But in the bigger picture, I want to meet it or to be able to process those things without just being told, you got to do this thing. This is how it is like that.  That is huge. I think it’s a very different way for them to experience it, even Kinsey, when she did have to stay longer, your extra effort to see through her eyes and to be specifically advocating for her as much as possible. Those are very different experiences for kids, I think. So, I wanted to just dive into this last piece, this last question, because we could come up with all the questions that we wanted. But it would be very interesting for us to hear what else you or your kids would like to share about their school experience. I think it’ll be fun to see what stuck out for you and for them. So would you like to start Ari? ARI: Sure. I might come up with more ideas after I hear Terri and Kinsey’s. The one kind of big picture thought I keep having is that the school is very central to our neighborhood. A lot of events happen there. The PTA is very well resourced and very active. There are community events which are centered around the school. It’s probably part of my daughter’s draw to school because that’s where the center of social activity is. And it’s in some ways beautiful and in some ways kind of troubling for me because I can consider the alternative. What if our community built that energy just around ourselves, just around our kids and didn’t tie it to this brick and mortar building where we put kids for six hours a day. I see why my daughter loves to go to school. She loves gym, and music, and library, and recess. And doing projects with her friends. And that’s all possible without the coercion, without required attendance. It requires some structure and a lot of effort, but I think our community could do that without the school. So anyway, this is my own kind of mind wandering. I think there are some wonderful aspects to what a school can be. And it shows just what human potential is to me and what a community could be. That’s my initial thought. PAM: How about you, Terri? TERRI: Wow, yeah, I love that idea. I never thought of it that way, Ari. That’s really cool. So, my mind is spinning there. But yeah, well, first of all, I asked Stella this question. I said, Is there anything you want to share? At first, she wasn’t sure what my question really meant. And I said, well, if there was another family that the child wanted to go to school, and they’ve never been to school, if there was another child who wanted to go to school that has never been before, what would you tell them? And she said, that recess isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. People say recess is their favorite part. She’s like, it’s not that great. She did say that, the first few minutes, you’ll have lots of kids who might want to play with you, and then you might end up alone. And I think maybe what she didn’t outright say, I think sometimes being alone was not as fun. But then sometimes she was alone, and was okay being alone. And she’d have an adult, a teacher come up to her and say, Why are you sitting alone? Are you sad? And she’d be like, I’m just sitting alone, leave me. So, that was something she wanted me to share. The whole experience leading up to it was a lot more daunting than the actual experience. In the end, I think I had a lot of work to do, because I worked in this school. My boss was the principal who when my child was four, I said, I think I’m going to homeschool. And he says, that’s a bad idea. I had lots of stuff in my head, thinking about all the thoughts that other people might have with me, choosing to do this, maybe her leaving all that. But in the end, it was okay. Because generally, people are pretty nice. And her teacher was lovely. Very lovely. She was sad to see her go. But yeah, it was a good experience. And I think Stella, now she’s talked about going back sometime, she says maybe grade six. Here, elementary goes up to five, and then they go to junior high six to eight, she said, maybe I’ll go back in grade six. She also said by the time she left, she was bored, that things were easy, or they weren’t interesting. And she was bored. So maybe she’s thinking, by grade six, things will be more complicated and interesting. Who knows, I guess we’ll see.  PAM: And Kinsey? KINSEY: So, I’ll talk about Emmy’s experiences that she shared with me when we were talking about this podcast and reflecting about being at school. One thing that she mentioned was that she was really anxious, and what’s interesting, you would not think she was having this experience of school because of the feedback I was getting back from the teachers.  But she was really anxious at school all the time. And she was, I think she was guarded, looking, scanning, maybe. And afraid that she was going to get in trouble. And it’s not because she engages in behaviors that would bring on discipline or whatever. But I think it’s just the energy and the atmosphere there. The children are always getting in trouble. There’s a punishment reward system, of course, as most schools have lots of children being yelled at by adults. And there’s a kind of an adversarial, I mean, it’s interesting. There can be a sense of community in the school, maybe it’s around sports teams or the band, or just the school, whatever it is. But then within that, there is a line between adults and children. And it’s very felt. Which probably, now that I’m really thinking about it, was unsettling for her because she’s never lived with that. I mean, we’ve been unschooling since 2018. She was three years old when we came home from preschool. We’ve been in this very partnered relationship her whole life. And other adult child relationships that we’ve fostered and found in our life. So, to be in this place where that’s just not the energy at all, or the way that things are set up. I’m sure that was really unsettling for her, but she said she was really anxious, worried she was going to get in trouble all the time. She said she had felt lots of pressure about her grades, which I found was interesting, too. Because it wasn’t from me. It wasn’t from anybody outside. It was from within herself, which was so interesting to me again, because we haven’t had that. That hasn’t been a thing for us in our lives or for her before that.  But I think again, it’s the culture of the environment, of the school environment. The expectations, people are getting in trouble for not meeting expectations. It’s a lot of pressure all of the time, compounded pressure all the time. So, let’s say she was exhausted. She was really burnt out. She got sick a lot. So, we started racking up lots of absences. Terri, like you were saying, so then I’m spending these mornings, half awake, going, Oh, gosh, do I? Is it okay for her to stay home? Or should I go ahead and say you’re going, why am I? Why am I even having this conversation with myself right now? This is ridiculous. But it’s part of the system, right? It’s just it’s part of it. And then after you get so many absences, you get a letter. You have too many absences. We got a letter at the end of the semester. So, that was another stressful thing. I was like, Oh, my gosh, what does this mean? What does this mean for next semester?  But anyway, she was really exhausted. She was not sleeping well. Something she learned about school was, this was what she said, she just doesn’t have time for it. She’s busy. She doesn’t have time for school, it takes too much time. And she wasn’t able to spend time with her friends, her pre going to school friends. Her homeschool friends, her online friends, or she really cut into that time. And I think that was really hard for her. So, then what she would end up doing, well, at first, she was going to bed early, it wasn’t that big of a deal, it’s okay, or whatever, worth it, maybe to try. And then after it wasn’t worth it anymore. She really, really needed to be able to spend time with her friends. And she would do that. And she would stay up. So she would stay up at night to do that. She would not get the hours of sleep that she needed to go to school or to to feel good at school. I mean, so she was just exhausted. At this point, she does not have any plans of trying school again, that I know of, I mean, maybe online or college or something like that. We’ve talked about stuff like that, but not going to the local public school. And I just have to wonder, and really, I feel like actually, I don’t really have to wonder that much. I think because she entered into it with it being this open opportunity. And then that was taken. That agency was taken. And then she was having to continue to go for longer. I just don’t know if she would chance it again. And then not being able to come out at her choosing when she knew. So that was it. I mean, it was rough. There were some really fun things about it. But altogether, it was very rough. And she’s not interested anymore. TERRI: Yeah, and that sounds like Stella. ANNA: Yeah, for sure. So just because we didn’t really cover this specifically. Stella did decide to come out, Terri, your daughter, and then Ari, your daughter is still enjoying it. Ready to go back, I guess it’s summer break now, though, maybe, and she’ll be going in soon for the fall. ARI: Yes, she’ll be starting fifth grade in the fall. I definitely think about, how do I keep the options open? Of course, she can always stop. But because the social life is so important to her, I think it would be very hard for her to choose to go away from school, even if there were other aspects that she didn’t like. Like the forced learning, the forced homework stuff, if that got to be hard, would she, it might be a challenge for her to weigh those two things. And so sometimes I think about keeping up my capacity, the kind of friendships I have with the unschooling community, so that if she were to choose to come out, it would be an attractive option. Anyway, that’s another thing that I consider sometimes. But yeah, she’s going to school in fifth grade. And she’s also had some influence on her younger sisters. So, they would also like to try school soon. PAM: Yeah, that’s what I was going to say, if anybody would like to speak to that, because your kids who chose to go to school or try school have siblings as well. And just how that unfolded having one sibling going to school, like managing the schedules, too. And as you said, Ari, a little bit of it is just the excitement of it, or that she would like them to be there too? ARI: I think it’s a whole combination of those things. There’s this joy that she had that she wanted her sisters to experience too. She did talk about it, we could see each other in the hallways, we could be at recess together, you would have this teacher that there’s this  knowingness. And at first, I had more resistance to her sisters being influenced by that than I did with her initial decision to go to school, because I could tell her decision was from herself. And her sisters were being influenced by her. And at first I was resistant to that. I wanted to provide information to my other daughters about listening to what they wanted. There’s plenty of time. Don’t have to do it now. I wanted to share with them a little bit about what I think happens in school. So we talked about it. But ultimately, I had to let go of wanting zero influence from my oldest because that’s how our family is part of their life, right? So, they get to decide how much to listen to her and to try something that she’s suggesting, and learn from that experience. So, we’re embracing it again. ANNA: It’s going to be really fun to see how that plays out. But I think for all of them, it may be a lesson in people are different. To find that something that works so well for one may not for the other or it may be that it works in a different way and is still beautiful. But I think that’s going to be really interesting. I am curious about that. So Terri, how did their brother feel about it? Or did that ever bring up topics of conversation? TERRI: Oh, for sure. We ask every once in a while, like, Oh, are you ever interested? And the answer is always no. And always a hard no. So it could change and grow over time. But I know he said, and I asked if I could share this. And he said, Okay. So, his main reason is that he wouldn’t go to school, is that there might be some things he wants to do, but there might be things he doesn’t want to do. And he doesn’t want to be told he has to do the things that he doesn’t want to do. Right? It’s agency, he loses his agency. He’s eight. And it’s true. I mean, you don’t have a whole lot. Some of it’s really great, fun stuff. But you still have to do it in a certain order, you still have to do it for a certain amount of time. That’s his main reason. I asked him if there’s a difference from when she’s at school to when she’s home now, and he wasn’t really able to say. From our perspective, kind of observing, I think they’re playing a lot together, with their online friends, they’ll all be in a call together, and they’ll play online. Right now they’re out on the trampoline together, I feel like, when she went away, it did create a bit of a separation. And then when she came home, she kind of wanted to do her own thing. If she goes back again, that can always be different too, as they grow. But yeah, it’s something I noticed. ANNA: Did Riley have anything to say, Kinsey? Or did she just think, that’s Emmy, Emmy doing Emmy. KINSEY: Emmy’s doing Emmy things. Riley has absolutely no desire whatsoever in going to school. And she didn’t have any feelings about Emmy going to school either. It was hard with the schedule expectations. When it was okay for Riley to stay up late and be playing, or video games, laughing with my mom late at night, when I was trying to help Emmy wind down and try to get her enough sleep for school the next day. Just trying to be aware of all of that. But it was a little bit tricky sometimes. Just didn’t feel good. TERRI: Yeah, I agree. We got into that too. Their rooms are next to each other and going in at night and say, could you just play quietly? It’s after 9. I would say after nine, can you make sure headphones are on and speak in a low voice just just to help your sister out. So, sometimes it got uncomfortable. You’re just like, be quiet, be quiet, reminding to be quiet. But, no, I don’t want to, I don’t want to do this to you. But I also want your sister to sleep. KINSEY: You end up kind of having to be an enforcer. And that’s not where I want to be at all. It is not at all the position that I want to be in. And that actually can really bother people. And did bother people that I was not interested in forcing anyone to do anything. ANNA: Yeah, because they all have ideas, right? I’m just going to pull out a couple things. And then we’ll just talk about what came up.  I thought it was so interesting, because we’ve seen this a lot, Terri, that you mentioned, the lead up is so much more stressful than the actual event of going to school. Because I think we see that over and over again, with people who unschool their kids, there’s a lot of worry about what’s going to happen, what’s it going to be like, and really across the board, kids that have stayed or not stayed. So, while it’s not that it’s always the perfect match, the fears that we had ahead of time really don’t play out. So I thought that was really interesting. And then Kinsey, that piece you were talking about with adults and kids, I was thinking just of all the adults in Emmy’s life, she has so many beautiful adults in her life that just celebrate her and delight in her and how that delta must have felt really intense. And I think in other situations, it may not, but I think that is, I think, a hard part about it, that kids and adults, we kind of set up this adversarial relationship that doesn’t need to be. And we see in our lives how it doesn’t have to be that way. But it is a part of that environment.  And then just quickly, Ari, that idea of community, I’m working with someone who has this vision of creating a community village. That is to me kind of the dream, because it is bringing adults and kids together to just learn and explore and have resources together. And I think, oh my gosh, if this actually works, it would be amazing. Because we do like community. It is fun to share resources. It is fun to have those different opportunities. But why do we have to be at a place where we have to give away so much agency and where we have to really segregate kids is so hard. But I love your point that for your daughter, it’s worth it, right? She’s getting out of it what she needs to get out of it right now. And it may always be that way for her. I think it’s just, it’s a good testament to sometimes we do need to experiment. It’s their own life. They need to see what works for them, because there is no one right answer. A lot of things bubbled up when you were talking. PAM: That’s what I did. I did really appreciate the point of this. Okay, I’ll finish my sentence. The point of how the lead up can be so much more challenging than the actual experience. And we see that so often, when parents are almost feeling like they need to adopt the school authority before the child even starts, because now I have to make sure they’re up to grade level or whatever, whatever. And we encourage them so often, that there are kids in school right now at every level in any topic. So number one, is that you don’t have to use your authority and change your relationship completely with your child, so that they can become what you imagine to be a good student before they even go to school. You’ve been unschooling for years and then school comes in. And then now there’s just so much processing to do. And you guys all spoke about how that was yours, and your work to do. And I think you all expressed that beautifully, which leads into the other piece that I was just so happy for you all to come and talk about your experience, because it doesn’t need to change your relationship at all. As we talked about the unschooling principles that can weave right through your days, and that the focus is still on the child, and their choices, and how they’re helping them process how they’re experiencing things.  We talked so much about giving them space, without needing to jump into fix, you really need to give them the space to do their processing, right? And, and then sometimes asking, do you even want me to say anything? Would you like my experience? Would you like to hear what I’m thinking about it?  You don’t have to lose that relationship that you have with all your children, just because one or more choose to go to school. Fundamentally, it’s still an exploration. And yeah, you mentioned being open and curious multiple times, I think that really is so huge, because that reminds us to see things through their eyes, to see how the experience is feeling for them, to see them choose the hard things. So often, people say you can’t give kids a choice to go to school, they’d never go to school. They’d never do hard things, so much of the societal narrative around kids only doing things when they’re forced to do things is just bunk. Because when you give the kids a space to actually think about what they want to do and make choices, and see how they unfold and continue to make choices, you see them in action, their choices make so much sense, even if we would not make the same choices ourselves, the choices they’re making in that moment, make sense. And just see them doing so much competent processing and choice making, right? Think of all the experience that they get just with that, in figuring out what they want to do day to day. Anyway, thank you so much. ERIKA: I think it’s so interesting. And I love how we got to hear such different experiences. And it reminds me of people are different again, every child is so different. And all the teachers are different. And it’s kind of the luck of the draw with that sometimes and what is the school environment like? And so I just think it’s super unique. And so that’s really fun to hear about. And then also, I just wanted to mention how I know sometimes when a child wants to go to school, it really can trigger an unschooling parent big time thinking I must be doing something wrong. If they’re asking to go there, I’ve been doing all the deschooling, convincing myself about how damaging it was in various ways. And just really questioning the importance of that.  So, I know it’s such a journey for parents to go on in this case. We want to be able to support them in going, without us going back to our previous mindset, which I think is so hard. And so yeah, I feel like I’ve heard some parents say, we’re not unschoolers anymore, because our kids are in school, or, have that kind of feeling. And that’s why I feel like we always like to keep talking about unschooling as more of that focus on relationships, these kinds of things of giving our kids autonomy and all of that. And so you don’t lose that just because they’re back in school. And so I think that’s really cool. And if anyone has anything else that came up? TERRI: I will echo what Pam said of this fear that they’re not going to be ready. How many years did we not work on specific math things or specific writing things or printing or handwriting, and I’m thinking what will it be like? But she seemed to excel every time I talked to her teacher, she’s like, oh, she’s so wonderful. She asks questions, and she’s involved and is very good. I mean, that could be just her too. But our children are just built for learning, right? They’re built for learning, and they go to school, well, supposedly to learn. So, they’re coming in and the teachers are ready to teach. It doesn’t matter where the kid is. Because again, like Pam said, there are 10 different levels in a class of 15. Every child is different, even if they went to school from age five, or they’re just starting now. And yeah, if I can just underline that, don’t worry about it. I worried about it too. I just wasted energy worrying about that. ANNA: Yeah, I think it’s the choice thing. Because I think when someone’s choosing to be there, I think the teachers just love that because these teachers are beautiful people, right? They are there because they love kids, because they want to create a great environment. And so to have a child who wants to be there and is excited to be there and wants to hear what they have to say, that’s going to just set them so far ahead. Even if they don’t know every single thing that someone else next to them knows, I think that energy of that choice makes such a difference. KINSEY: Okay, that really brought something to mind. She did mention a lot at the time. And we’ve talked about it since then, too, but it was so frustrating to her being in a classroom setting when it was so clear that children didn’t want to be there. If it’s something interesting that they were doing that she really wanted to participate in, or wanted the teacher to be able to explain how to do it because she wanted to do it. And then there were classroom management things going on. It was really, really frustrating for her. And she would get really frustrated at the other students and couldn’t understand. But it’s a totally different story, you’re coming from a completely different place. And she’s even seen that in homeschool classes. She went to a zoology class for a semester, I don’t even think she went the whole semester, she was kind of bored with the classroom set lecture style setting.  There was, again, another thing she wanted to just try. And, but it was the same. You could tell that there were children there who really probably weren’t interested in being there. They were there because they were being put there. And it was frustrating. It was really frustrating for her. So she likes being a part of things and group stuff and class stuff when the others are there and choosing to be there. They want to be there. And they want to learn and because that synergy feels good, you know. PAM: And I will say we saw that too in rec classes, like with Michael’s karate. There were some kids who were there because their parents wanted them to be there, for whatever reason, so it wasn’t their choice. And I remember him having the same kinds of reactions and being so happy to be asked to move up to the adult class a year earlier than typical, because it’s a choice. So everybody there wants to be there and everybody’s into it. Fundamentally being able to choose where you go makes such a difference. Just look at kids at school and think these are kids. That’s why society in general thinks kids don’t want to learn. You have to make them do things. But that’s just because that’s the situation you’ve put them in and they are reacting to the situation. That isn’t them naturally as a human being, as a child, that is a young human being in that environment. Yeah, so interesting. ERIKA: It’s really sad to think, most kids don’t have that experience of getting to follow their own interests with other people who also want to follow that interest. It’s such a different environment. ARI: So, just on that choice piece. There’s also a choice of what to make of the metrics. There’s metrics everywhere. Like my daughter took, I think, three practice tests, three progress tests, and then the state assessment at the end of the year. And she got four report cards. They’re always telling her stuff about herself. But we talked about how you have a choice of how to interpret that, which was not my experience. For 22 years of my life, I thought this authority knows me better than I know myself. So, I like viewing the assessments very differently, too. It’s huge. ERIKA: I feel like that just creates a whole different experience, so much more empowering for your kids.  Thank you all so much for joining us. This was amazing. And we hope everyone at home enjoyed the conversation. And we invite you to join all of us in the Living Joyfully Network. It’s a warm and welcoming online community of hearted parents, a nonjudgmental space where you can explore what the ideas might look like day to day in your unique family, and be a part of conversations that are just like this. Your first month is free. So you can get a sense of whether it’s a good fit for you. And we would be really excited to welcome you to learn more. And to join us, you can follow the link in the show notes or just go to livingjoyfully.ca and choose network at the top of the page. Thank you so much and wishing everyone a wonderful day. ALL: Thank you. Bye!

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