Exploring Unschooling

We’re back with another On the Journey episode! Pam, Anna, and Erika had a powerful conversation with Living Joyfully Network member and unschooling dad Sam. Sam shared deeply about his journey with his daughter through autistic burnout. We talked about Sam’s experiences in both PDA and unschooling parent communities, the depth of the inner work that this journey involves, and some of the major paradigm shifts that Sam has made along the way. It was a really meaningful conversation and we hope it resonates with you! Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us. Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more! Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ANNA: Hello, everyone. I’m Anna Brown from Living Joyfully and today I’m joined by my co-hosts Erika Ellis and Pam Laricchia, as well as our special guest today, Sam. Hello to you all.  I really appreciate Sam joining us today. He’s a member of the Living Joyfully Network and it’s been really nice getting to know his story and watch how things have unfolded. He brings that thoughtful, intentional energy that I love about the Network. That energy helps fuel my own personal growth and create a beautiful, supportive environment where we can dig deeper and question the prevailing narratives. So, Sam, to get us started, can you tell us a little bit about you and your family and what everybody’s interested in right now?  SAM: Sure, yeah. Well, I live in Minneapolis with my wife Kate and my daughter. I recently retired from work early. I did the early retirement thing. I had been working part time for the year previous to that. And so, I guess I can start a little bit with what my daughter’s into. I mentioned to her that this was going to be one of the questions and she said interior design and interior decorating and games. And then I would add a few things to that, too. Right now, she’s super into making slime, large amounts of slime in many different permutations. There’s lots of experimentation happening with different ingredients and add-ins and colors and that kind of thing. So, that’s kind of fun and messy. She has a wide doll collection and she’s been really into making her own rooms. She calls them mini rooms and they’re essentially like dollhouse rooms, like a kitchen or a bedroom.  She makes one room at a time and adds them on to each other and buys these little, tiny little Mini Brand versions of real life products that she stocks in the doll refrigerator really intricately. And I guess that ties into her interior design interest, as well. She’s super creative. She really likes to do drawing. She makes videos and she actually, I’m kind of amazed at some of the videos that she makes because she’s, I don’t even think I said she’s nine. And so she uses her iPad to make videos and she has her own YouTube channel. She has two YouTube channels, which are not updated too frequently. It’s something she’ll get really into and then completely abandon and then six months later be really into it again. And so, that’s fun. And then she likes building forts. She likes playing with our dog Lucy, and various other things. And she watches videos. She loves YouTube and learning. She’s really into watching videos about Minecraft and Toca Boca World, which is the other game that she’s really into at the moment.  She watches videos about all kinds of things like science and history. It’s interesting. She’ll frequently tell me very random facts that she’s learned by watching videos and I, being skeptical, when I look at the videos she’s watching then I’ll Google it and be like is that really true? And it’s interesting because it almost always is accurate and so that’s been an interesting learning for me because I’m the kind of somebody who’s avoided YouTube and never wanted to have anything to do with it for many years. And now I watch quite a bit of it just to keep up with what she’s doing. So that’s kind of fun. And my wife Kate, she works in public policy. She’s an environmental climate scientist, and she works on making and contributing to the creation of policy to help us in the state of Minnesota adapt to climate change. And she is super engaged and super smart. And she also likes to compete in triathlons a couple of times a year. She and I are very different in the sense that she needs to have some kind of external motivator to do things and so she really thrives on deadlines and procrastination and that sort of thing and I’m completely the opposite of that. And then we just hang out a lot. We do a lot of hanging out at home, reading, and that kind of thing. And then, for me, I always have a hard time talking about myself, but I read a lot. I’m currently really interested in reading 19th century British novels, and I’m not sure why, I’ve just been really obsessed with it over the past year or so. So, I’m always reading a couple of books. I’ve really been into reading poetry from different periods, and I’ve been writing for most of my life. My first career was as a professional writer, which kind of drained the fun of writing out of me for a good long time. But I’ve been writing, some creative writing and some poetry which I haven’t done in a very, very long time so that’s been really fun.  And then, my daughter and I, we just hang out pretty much every day. And we just kind of roll with it and see what happens. We don’t really have a lot of plans. We never really know what’s going to happen. But that’s how we approach it, one day at a time. PAM: I think that’s so fun. I loved the little YouTube story that was tied in there as well. I love the interest piece for you wanting to see what she’s enjoying about this because it’s a way to connect with her, no matter the interest. And I loved that you could share the various things that she’s watching rather than saying, she loves YouTube and cutting it off there. It makes such a difference like you were saying, even just in that little synopsis, the variety of things that she’s engaging with, right? SAM: Yeah, well that was a big change for me because at the beginning of our unschooling journey when we started allowing unlimited screen time, which was a huge, huge hurdle for us to get over, for me to get over. I was definitely in the mindset of, oh my god, she’s just watching YouTube all day and not caring what it was. It was just YouTube bad, whatever, internet stuff. And now, she doesn’t like me to watch with her but she’s happy to have me, like not review but just kind of check out what she has watched and then we talk about some of the videos and I tell her what I liked and she tells me what she was into and we talk about which things were silly or which things were interesting. So, that has been a huge growth for me to just spend more time to really understand what these things are that she’s interested in, in a level of detail that I can actually see it and get it and relate to it in some way, rather than dismissing it, which is what I would have done previously. ERIKA: I loved all of your shares about all of your interests. I always think when people share about family member interests, it’s like, that’s only three people in the whole world and you’re already covering so many different areas and there are so many ways and things are kind of interacting and you’re learning from each other and you’re all so different. And I just love that and I loved the slime phase. We had that big time with my youngest too and it’s pretty messy, but it’s a lot of fun. ANNA: I know the slime thing was actually after our time. Did you have slime, Pam? We didn’t have slime. It wasn’t a thing. I have friends from the Network that have younger kids that I get to visit and it’s a whole thing, right? It’s just unbelievably amazing and messy, but it’s incredible. I love that. And just that again, the diversity of interest with the three of you is just, wow, this is how rich life is when we’re just exploring these things that are interesting to us. PAM: I love that. And so, Sam, you kind of alluded to this, so I’d like to dive in a bit more, but I would love to hear a bit more about how you actually discovered unschooling and what your family’s transition to unschooling looked like. SAM: This will be good to talk about because this was definitely a big journey for us and not something we ever would have imagined, conceived of, anticipated in any way. And so I guess we were just, I mean, for me, I hadn’t really put that much thought into it. Maybe this sounds terrible, but I didn’t really think that much about what it would be like to be a parent. And I had no plans, I had no ideas of how it should be, or the right way to do it or anything like that. I just kind of, I don’t want to speak for Kate, but I just made assumptions that like, okay, you have a kid, kid goes to daycare, until they’re old enough to go to kindergarten, and then they go to kindergarten. And so, we were following that path. And I think we’re lucky that we found out about this daycare pretty close to our house that was, I think, a generally positive thing for our daughter at the time.  It’s a Montessori daycare. And it ended up having just some really wonderful teachers, but also some really wonderful friends, and several of whom live just within a couple blocks of us, and have become, in her short life, lifelong friends of our daughters. So, her closest friends in the neighborhood she’s been with since they were three months old, which thinking back on it, I’m like, oh my god, I can’t believe we dropped her off when she was three months old, and just went to the office. But you know, at the time, Kate and I were both in very busy parts of our careers. And I was very, very career focused. And, generally, our daughter did great with other kids, did great in daycare. And then there were a few times like towards the end when she was around five, and we were getting close to the kindergarten transition, she started having days where she just really didn’t want to go. And she would be literally kicking and screaming. I would literally carry her kicking and screaming, which is something that looking back on and I’m kind of mortified that I did. But my mindset at the time was, this is not optional. I’ve got to go to work. And you’ve got to go to school, this is the deal. Welcome to the world. And I really felt like I was leaving her in a safe place. And then we live about two blocks from a public school, and we are here in Minneapolis, and we really wanted to send her to that school, and we just kind of made that choice. We didn’t talk to her about it. We didn’t tour schools. And then it turned out most of the neighborhood kids including all her friends were going to the school that’s just a mile down the road but it’s in the suburban district.  So, when she was at this school in kindergarten she didn’t know anybody there. And socio-economically and demographically the school that she went to for kindergarten is very different from her. And it was pretty rough. She encountered a lot of bullying. She encountered a lot of what was probably traumatic talk about what they call live shooter drills, and the discussion around that was extremely explicit and extremely scary. And so it was overall not a positive experience for her and within the first month, she was refusing to go and really upset about it. And we realized pretty quickly, though we did this whole, “No, you’ve got to go, there’s not a choice.” We did that for a little while and then finally she was literally just begging us to send her to the other school. And so we said okay, we’ll do that. It still didn’t occur to us that not going to school was an option. That was definitely not on the radar, but we were able to transfer her to the other school. They put her in the class with her friends, and she had this great group of friends. It seemed like everything was fine. It seemed like it was a total 180. We really didn’t have any more school refusal. The rest of the kindergarten year seemed good.  And then we went through first grade and that seemed good. Summers were challenging because there’s this whole world of summer camps that’s super competitive and you have to sign your kid up for camps in January for the summer and my work schedule was so intense, and I was traveling a lot for work. So, Kate was alone with our daughter for a lot of the time. And so we signed her up for every week that we could. In retrospect, that was pretty intense. So, at the end of first grade. And while we went through first grade there were various signs, but nothing that was really telling us definitively that this is not working for her. And she really had a wonderful teacher in first grade, who really got her. And what we realized is that the teacher was really providing our daughter with a lot of accommodations, without her or us having to ask for them, and sort of would bend the rules of the school, just to make her more comfortable. And so that was super helpful and, and I think also pretty unusual. But after first grade ended that summer. We signed her up for a camp, a couple camps, and something happened in the course of that, where she really didn’t have a break at all between school and the camps, and she hit a wall, and we just started to see a dramatic, dramatic change in her. That was really frightening, because it was so intense. And so, at first it was not wanting to leave the house, I’m not going to go to camp, that sort of thing. Which was okay, by that point we were already into the pandemic so my travel had stopped and that was actually a big relief. I was still working a lot but I was at home, so it wasn’t like the end of the world if we couldn’t drop her off somewhere. But we started seeing a lot of physical aggression, and just anger and rage really. And it was something that was just very scary and challenging. And then that summer between first and second grade, she stopped wanting to get out of bed, and would not get out of bed the entire day. Wouldn’t comb her hair, bathe, brush teeth, none of those things were happening. It really felt like we’re in a crisis. And so, we sought medical help. But she wouldn’t go, she would not go to see a doctor. So we did virtual sessions with psychiatrists and that was extremely unhelpful. We were really approaching it through this medical model of, this is a crisis, our daughter is having some kind of like so far unexplained psychiatric episode. And like the psychiatrist basically said, you should commit her to some kind of inpatient thing. Everything about that just felt wrong to me. That was the point at which it was like, okay, we’re not going to talk to the psychiatrist anymore. This whole time I’d been Googling kind of ferociously trying to figure out what’s happening here. What I came across was all this content about PDA. It felt like, wow, this really sounded like it was describing what we were experiencing. So, I signed up for a class for parents who have PDA kids. And that was an interesting experience. On the one hand, it was like this huge relief because the class was from a parent who had gone through this experience and had taken a very scientific approach to trying to understand what was happening and how to readjust their lives to deal with this. In that class, which I generally had very mixed feelings about, but that’s the class where I heard the term unschooling for the first time. So to get to the question, I guess, that was definitely a phrase that I had never heard. In this class, there were 400 parents in this virtual class. I was just astonished at how many parents there were. And we would have these calls and the stories that people shared were all very similar, definitely very relatable. The thing I noticed is that everybody similar to us was approaching it as a crisis, like as a problem that has to be solved. One of the big lessons from the class was this is not something you can change. This is something you have to adapt to. So that definitely got me thinking and it was a real shift of mindset for me. It’s like, okay, this is it, life is not going to be the way we thought it was. And we have to make changes. And it was the facilitator of that class who first mentioned the term unschooling. There was lots of talk about homeschooling because so many of the kids whose parents were in this program were refusing or unable to go to school. In the school world, they label it school refusal. And I think the way I would talk about it now is just, unable to go to school really. So, then I started Googling unschooling and wondering, what the heck is this? Because I was not interested in being a teacher.  I actually tried being a teacher in an early career. I had several, false starts, I guess I would say. And one of them was in education and I kind of left that thinking, okay, that is not something I can do. I am never going to do that again.  My conception of homeschooling, and I think Anna, you were just talking about this in one of the recent discussions was like, homeschooling means you’re sitting at the kitchen table with workbooks and curriculum and you’re going through the whole thing. And I was like, I don’t want to do that. And I’m 99% sure that my daughter is not interested in that. And so that’s where the unschooling thing came in, I’d like to learn more about this. And so through Googling, I found this podcast (Exploring Unschooling) and it was a totally life-changing experience. I think just listening to the podcast, because I think the thing that really struck me is that I was immersed in this PDA community, which was very much using the medical model for looking at things and the deficit lens of looking at things. And then in the podcast, you all were taking this totally different lens.  You’re not doing this because it’s a last resort and you have no other choice. It’s this intentional way of approaching life differently. And then just kind of turning all these things that I never questioned, like school is required and just asking, well, why? Let’s actually think about that. Is that actually true? What’s the goal of education and what are other ways of achieving that goal? And so just listening to stories of parents who were making this choice was really a really transformational experience. And then I went back into this class that I was taking, this class spanned a period of three months. And so in those three months was a huge learning for me, I would go back into these calls with these other parents and their voices are all just filled with panic and fear. And I was just like, I’m not feeling that anymore. When I went into it, I was all panic and fear. That was the deal. And then after listening, and I probably listened to like 150 episodes of the podcast, I’m just walking around the house, the headphones all day, just episode after episode, after episode, everything I’m doing, I’m listening to it. I was just like, I’m not afraid of this anymore.  Then I joined the Network, really not knowing what to expect, but one thing that really struck me when I joined the Network is nobody in the network was using any of the same language that I had learned in my PDA curriculum that I had found. But a lot of people were describing similar things that sounded like similar experiences. And I was just like, wow, this is like a parallel universe over here where we’re dealing with the same human things, but this group of people is taking a completely different mindset and a completely different approach to it. It’s not a crisis. It’s not a problem. We’re just rolling with the phases of life and making adjustments that we have to make.  I got really excited about unschooling and I was like, this is great. And then I wanted to be talking about it all the time, but I quickly found that people who are not unschooling are not interested in hearing about unschooling. That is a lesson I learned very quickly. So, it’s not something that we talked about at the park or at the neighborhood gatherings very much. So, that’s kind of the long winded story of how we arrived at this point. ERIKA: That gives me goosebumps.  PAM: I know. I do appreciate you sharing the details of it because I mean, it is a very familiar journey for me. I remember the years, the two years where we had a great teacher. I was in the same place, working with my kids. I had no clue that this was a choice. This was something we had to figure out and having those teachers who were not as rigid and who saw my child and celebrated them and thought it was really cool and just accommodated. It was only night and day when then the next year you’ve got another teacher who was very, very fixated. But yeah, I super appreciate that whole journey and the comparison, the language and the approach, right. With these kids, I don’t even like saying these kids, but with these kinds of situations, this way of moving through the world.  We don’t see the deficit side because I hadn’t thought of it that way, but it is completely a choice. It’s like we’re introduced to it maybe because something has gone sideways. Because we grew up with the narrative of, this is the way we do things. We have kids, they go to daycare, they go to school, et cetera. And then something knocks us to ask that first question. But yeah, once you open that up and then you recognize all the different questions that you can ask and that shift to just being in the world with the people who are part of our families and, and it’s hard to explain fully respecting them and just living together and coming and going and, and understanding each other, and shifting to that perspective versus, oh my gosh, here’s all the accommodations I need to make to try to fix it. And then eventually, hopefully, they’ll work enough that we can go back to the life that we had. It’s still holding that because it’s revisiting the questions, revisiting the assumptions that we have been basing our life on that this is the good stuff to do. And what are all the things, even the super hard things, that we have to do to get ourselves back to that. ANNA: I think one of the things I really appreciate was you sharing the whole journey, because I think it will actually resonate with a lot of people. Just hearing how many people were in that PDA group is kind of amazing to me. But one of the things I love, when you first came to the Network and other people that have had a similar journey, because like you said, you’ll hear similar stories to yours very often in the Network, but it’s that first moment of relief, because I think so often you’re really focused on all the things that are happening that feel terrible. This is so serious, this is so terrible, but then really opening up to really seeing the gifts in your child. I mean, oh my gosh, from the beginning, your daughter just delighted me, she just had so many interesting things about her and the way she moved through the world. And I think when we can bring that perspective and I think parents are craving that, right? It’s why those teachers that were so kind felt so great because they saw the thing that you see in your child. And I think that is something that I love about the Network where we just celebrate all these amazing kids for the things that they bring to the table because it’s amazing. We don’t need to make everybody look the same and do the same thing. So, I loved that piece and just that little spark that happens when it’s like, yeah, she is amazing. And I love that we can be in a place where we can all see that. ERIKA: Yeah. When you’re too in the tunnel vision of a certain paradigm, the school paradigm where it has to look like this, and it’s not looking like this, and this is an emergency, it can be really hard to even imagine anything outside of that. But right, I feel like I remember when you first came to the Network, just the idea of what if there’s nothing wrong, actually, and we just are who we are and that’s okay. I think that feels so good, especially when we’re hearing all these messages about something being wrong. And then, for me, with my neurodivergent kids, I just have found being in the Network so validating and reinforcing and positive for me, because I just keep seeing all these similar experiences, they get it, they’ve been there with these same things. And everyone is just really appreciating the uniqueness of each of each child. And that just feels so much better. And I mean, we could try to fix things for our whole lives and just be in constant conflict, and nothing would necessarily even get better or change. And so, I think it’s just so much nicer to be in a nice relationship, in a positive relationship with their kids. And I know you’ve talked about a lot of shifts already. But the question I wanted to ask is, what has been like the biggest mindset shift for you in this journey so far? SAM: I think it’s got to be around the school. There are so many things around this. And I was thinking about this on the most basic level, just the idea that school was optional, or that there were different ways to approach it was a big learning. I think one thing that I left out of the story is that as we were approaching second grade, our daughter was enrolled. And as we were getting closer and closer, I just couldn’t picture how this was going to happen.  I think at the end of the summer, on the day after Labor Day, which is when school starts, it was like, I don’t think things are going to be magically different. And we can’t just pick up and go back to where we were. But our daughter was, I think she also had the message already ingrained that school was not optional. And so she did rally.  We went and got her haircut, and we got clothes. And she went that first day. First, we went to the open house. And that went okay, and we met her new teacher. And then she went to the first day. And everyone in the school said that they were amazing. And that second day, she woke up, and she said, “I am not going back to that school.” And it was firm, this is the deal. And so then I went through a lot between that early September, and probably mid October, which is right around the time, this would have been 2024, which was right on the time that I joined the network. I was calling our daughter in sick every day. And keeping in touch with the school, having weekly calls with the school, trying to explain to them what’s going on. And then I switched her from the school district that we had enrolled her in, and had a virtual only. It is a really innovative virtual-only option that they developed during COVID, and then really invested a lot in. And it seemed really cool, actually. So we switched her to that program. And that did not help at all. She was not going to get on those classes. And she was not going to log in. But I had calls with the teacher every week. And the teacher told me, “I went through the same thing where my daughter refused to go to school. I am totally with you. I totally get it. I totally get where you are.”  And I mean, these people at the school could not have been more supportive. But then as soon as we hit the 30 day mark, they were like, well, it’s been 30 days. And now we got to call the county, we got to get the county in there. Suddenly, it was like, okay, we’ve been accommodating, but time’s up, it’s been 30 days, and it can’t go on for this long. At that point, we had had our daughter assessed for neuropsychological evaluation and had all of these assessments done and found a really knowledgeable doctor who specialized in autism in girls. And I felt more confident that what our daughter really needed was rest, and was in a state of burnout that she was not going to recover from quickly. And the psychologist said you should think about it as a year, at least, that she’s going to be in this reduced-capacity state. But it wasn’t until the school said, we got to call the county, that I was like, okay, we’ve got to make a decision.  And at that moment, the decision is we are not going to try to work through this medical deficit lens to try and get our daughter back on track to return to the environment which put her into this state. And so, I think it really took that for me to have that internal shift or transformational kind of moment of, we have to make a different decision.  And so, from that point, instead of being like, okay, this unschooling thing sounds great and we’re gonna do this until we no longer have to, I think that’s where my mindset had been, and then I moved into more of what I would call acceptance of no, no, no, we’re going to really choose this path. And it wasn’t until that point that I really started to embrace unschooling and get excited about it and actually think about it as a deliberate choice.  And I think the other shift that I think is important was more about me and my worries and my career, because I have always had this sense of financial insecurity and just kind of fear around that. When I was insisting that she go to school, forcing her to go to school, it’s true that I had to go to work and it’s true that my work was very busy and that I had to travel a lot for work, but I didn’t have to work that job. And that was really the way I had approached work. I worked really hard. Work was a top priority in my life before meeting Kate and thinking about having kids and all that. And I was achieving a lot of recognition and success at work and there was no part of me, any new opportunity that I was given at work I said yes to any new challenge I was given.  I said yes to anything. If I was given negative feedback at work, I was going to overcome that and do whatever I had to do. And I just was in this mode of thriving on the validation systems of the corporate world and just moving up that ladder.  And I had ended up in a leadership position and there was really no part of me that was like, this is optional or I don’t have to. It was like, no, I have to do this. And so, I think that when I started to go through the shift about school, it really made me think about, why am I spending so much time at work? When I was working from home, I had like 12-14 meetings back-to-back on Zoom every day. And I was anxious and frustrated all the time and I was super stressed out and it’s like, no matter how hard you work, there’s always more work. It’s just never finished.  And so, I started to think that I don’t have to have this career path. It just doesn’t have to be this way. And so, then I started making decisions at work to pull back from work and first I changed into a lower stress job. I stepped down from the leadership role and I took a different kind of role and then I reduced my hours and then eventually it was like, I’m just going to stop working. And there’s definitely a privilege involved with that and there was also, it really was in in the case of our family, I think it was a huge mindset mindset shift for me about how important work really is and how important money is and what you need to do versus what you want to do and all these different things. So that was like a pretty huge thing. And I think that’s the other piece. I often think this related to unschooling now, is that I feel like and I really like that the name of the network is Living Joyfully, because I feel like the term unschooling just doesn’t quite do it, because school is just one part of it or how we approach learning. It’s just one part of it. But really it’s been a total change of how I approach life on a daily basis, right? In big ways and in small ways and so that’s really just a huge transformation that this journey has involved for me.  PAM: I love it and yes, the name of the Network was very intentional because absolutely unschooling was my window to this world. It was that the school was the first question when I eventually discovered that it wasn’t the law that there were other options than just dropping your kids off at school or else you go to jail. And it is just so brilliant how you asked that question. You start diving into that and how it opens up It’s like oh, well if I can question school, maybe I can question work. As I am questioning school I am starting to have different perspectives and thoughts about relationships and the value of relationships and the value of my child, a different way of seeing my child as a human being versus somebody I need to train and who needs to learn that you go to school and then that becomes work. I remember there was a season where I noticed when I was writing blog posts many years ago that every blog post I wrote that started about unschooling, obviously, by the end of a thousand words, fifteen hundred words was and that’s life because really the perspective can be applied across every aspect of life. It’s not just school, yes or no, when you want to dive deeper. When you discover it’s not so much that I need to fix all these things so that the kid can enjoy school so that I can enjoy work. Thinking there’s something wrong with me if I’m not making these conventional systems work for me versus questioning the systems in the first place And just I love the journey of how you tweaked it, right? It’s like oh, I’m gonna change my job to release some of the stress. Now I’m gonna lower my hours. That was the same approach with school, right? Those 30 days you’re just calling in sick because it’s keeping your doors open, keeping the possibilities open until there was a moment where that door is closing and now we really want to make an actual choice. Are we going to force through this or are we going to decide to step out of that system? ANNA: I think, for me, I mentioned at the top, questioning the prevailing narratives and I think that’s the big piece for me. We have a lot of narratives, school is a have to and school is hard, you just have to do hard things and work is hard and you have to do hard things and we need to be productive and all of these kinds of beliefs that end up not necessarily serving us individually or as a family but end up serving the system that we’re in. That is one of my favorite parts of this, really just questioning all of it and you may still choose to work in some way or to go to school in some way but boy does it feel different as a choice and an intentional path than it does as a have to and the drudgery.  That is why it’s called Living Joyfully, why we so intentionally chose that and why Pam really really resonated for me. It’s questioning, why do we have to have these hard things? Why does life have to be hard? Why does work have to be hard? Why does school have to be hard? Maybe it doesn’t.  And so once we can start asking that question and really examine the answers, I think everything changes so dramatically. ERIKA: Yeah, I love that your answer to the question is basically everything. I just completely changed into a new person. I totally remember that part of my journey as well. When it’s just this ripple effect of one little thing that doesn’t have to be like that and then it just all kind of ripples out from there and I just love it.  PAM: One thing I just wanted to say, I think at first like when I remember way back when we started, when I first heard the term unschooling and you hear of people describing living joyfully, making choices from that perspective rather than, life is hard. We have to do these hard things. At first, I remember thinking- well, if I step back and start choosing not to do hard things, won’t my life or my kids be so boring because we won’t be doing all those things.  But like Anna said, you’ve discovered and shared Sam, it’s that shift to the motivation behind the choices.  The fact that they are now choices, we see our kids choosing to do hard things all the time. Challenging things that get them right up at the edge. Tipping over into frustration, but the fact that they’re choosing them intentionally makes all the difference in the world.  That was just something out there because at first you can think oh well then we’re going to be doing nothing but that’s one of the feedback we get to our questions. We used to get so often well, they’re never gonna do anything if you don’t make it do these hard things, right? They do all kinds of things! ANNA: We’re about to wrap up, but I feel like because you’ve shared this journey I just want to and hopefully this isn’t too much of a surprise.  I know you’re about a year and a half into your unschooling journey, maybe just give a brief glimpse into, things really do feel better, right? Your daughter really feels better, you see her kind of coming back into the person you felt like before and even more so I just maybe that would help give the arc for people that are feeling like it’s hard and it’s scary right now. SAM: Yes, and I thank you for that opportunity because if I think back to where we were. If  I think back to a year and a half ago, I was scared. I guess on the one hand I would hear stories of parents who’ve been through something similar and were in a different, better place now was helpful, but on the other hand the voice in my head was like, but that’s not going to be your situation. This is the rest of your life.   And it was slow and I think you, Anna, said something really helpful to me at one point. We were probably six months in and I was saying something and I can’t remember what we were talking about but it was in one of our weekly calls. I was commenting on being in burnout and what it was going to be like after and you said, Sam, I think you have some thinking to do about what it means to be done with burnout or what is life going to be like after burnout? What does that even mean?  That was super helpful and I’ve thought about that a lot because going into burnout felt very sudden. It just felt like one day we woke up and we were in a different universe. That’s how it felt. But when I think back, there were lots of signs. And if I go back and read, I’m a journaler, and if I go back and read my journal entries from three years ago, the signs are there in my journal or even from longer ago than that. So, it really wasn’t sudden and the sort of transition out and now our daughter does talk about how she was in burnout and she talks about that sometimes. She talks about it as in the past tense and sometimes.  She’s still a little bit in there, but she knows she’s in a better place. It really is just very incremental one day at a time, but things have changed dramatically. And we’re just in it as a family. I think we’re just in a way, way, way better place and it doesn’t look anything like it looked before. I think it’s better than it was before but I could never have imagined or thought that this is what we would want. But now I just think things are great. I just feel more confident that we can deal with whatever challenges come up as they come up and we just have a new approach and a new lens for life.  ANNA: I think one of the cool things about her and some of the other kids that we’ve seen transition in that way is just how they teach us how to regulate. I want to do this thing and then I want some time off and wait, I don’t want to do this thing. I’ve loved watching her journey of really understanding herself because I think she was pushing herself beyond her limits, sometimes with a little help from you all. But sometimes I think she was just reading the signs and saying okay, I need to do this. But now with this freedom you see her just being so intentional and expending a lot of energy on some things and then saying hey, I need to dial it back. I just feel like that’s great for all of us to learn and remember and normalize that that’s actually how humans like to move through the world.  That fast, linear pace is really hard for most humans and our nervous system. So, I love what these kids have to teach us as well. I appreciate you just sharing a little bit more of that arc. Thank you so so much for being here. It’s been really interesting and powerful and I hope everyone enjoyed the conversation and maybe had their own kind of aha moment or just resonated with the feelings that we’ve been talking about. If you enjoy these kinds of conversations and want to come hang out with us. We’d love to have you join us on the Living Joyfully Network. We invite you to check it out and see if it fits with our free month trial and you’ll find the link in the show notes. And also at livingjoyfully.ca. The link will be on the home page. Thank you so much for being here and for everyone for joining us. PAM:  Thanks so much, Sam.ERIKA: Thanks, Sam. SAM: Thank you.

For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Polarizing Paradigms. While it’s common to see things through the lens of right and wrong or good and bad and to look for someone or something to blame, these polarizing paradigms are damaging to relationships. Real relationships and real life are more nuanced. They exist in the gray area. We hope today’s episode sparks some fun insights for you! Listen to our conversation on YouTube. THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us. Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more! Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships. EPISODE QUESTIONS How does it feel when someone puts their ideas of right or wrong on you? Do you notice an area where polarizing paradigms are impacting an important relationship? How would it feel to let it go and lean in to understand? How do you feel when someone blames you for something and you don’t see it the same way? Have you seen judgment impact a relationship with someone you love? How would it feel to let go of black and white thinking and dig into the gray with the people in your life? TRANSCRIPT ANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Thanks for tuning in to explore relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world. So, in today’s episode, we’re going to talk about moving beyond polarizing paradigms. Right/wrong, good/bad, blame/fault. These are all paradigms and it’s pretty interesting when you start exploring if they are serving us or hindering us in our relationships with others. So, I love teasing apart the ideas of right and wrong, because on the surface, it seems like a simple and very useful concept. And I think it can be when it’s applied to our own personal journey. What feels right to me? What doesn’t feel right? How do I want to act in the world? Who is the person I want to be in the world? It’s when we start to try to impose our ideas of right or wrong or act as if there’s one definition, one definitive definition, that it really just stops learning. Standing staunchly in what could feel like a very justifiable position stops learning. Instead, we can ask, why does someone have a certain belief or act in a certain way? Why do some people agree with it and others don’t? How can we move beyond that thought to start looking at the people involved? And even more importantly, looking at the needs behind the behavior. What’s driving the behavior? What’s driving the action? And as we lean into that, we learn more about the person and perhaps gain new insights into the whole situation, insights we wouldn’t have seen had we stayed stuck in our position of there’s one right way. And so, when we just look at behavior and judge it as right and wrong, we’re losing this chance to connect with the person in front of us, be that person, our child, a friend, our partner. We’re losing our chance to understand their motivation and the need behind it. And it’s in that place of refraining from judgment that we can choose connection and understanding. If the behavior is impacting us, I guarantee you the fastest way to stop it while still remaining connected is to address that underlying need. Because once the need is addressed, the offending behavior no longer serves a purpose and it just falls away. PAM: Yes. Judging another person’s behavior is so often disconnecting, and that’s precisely because it’s a surface level perspective. Digging in to find the underlying need they are trying to address with that behavior hits so many more connecting notes between us. We learn more about them. They feel more seen and heard. The challenging behavior fades. And there’s much less need for any relationship repair at the end of it all. And another situation where the idea of right and wrong can cause upset in relationships is in how someone else chooses to do something. So, beyond behavior, is there really a right way to pack the dishwasher? ANNA: Maybe! PAM: Or to fold clothes or to play with a toy? Surely there are ways that are right for us. We absolutely have our preferences, but we can take that too far when we expect others to do things the same way that we do. It’s like when we expand “right for us” to mean “right period.” Of course, sometimes those other ways just kind of grate on us, like utensils the wrong way up in the dishwasher. I have found it helpful in those moments to remind myself that the way they are doing it probably feels just as right to them as my way feels to me. That is always such a good reminder. I still use it all the time, just as a way to process. And I also sometimes ask myself, well, if I believe that my way really is the best way, am I willing then to be the one who does the task? Or might I instead choose to be just grateful that someone else has done it? Either of those choices is more connecting in a relationship than trying to control another person’s actions. The relationship is my lens. It’s my priority. I’m also going to bring those considerations into my self-talk, into what I’m thinking about the situation or the rub that’s happening. ANNA: And then it boils down to choices, too. Am I going to choose this dishwasher being loaded this way versus this relationship? Am I going to put that above? And so, I think it’s just really interesting to play with those ideas and really walk yourself through it, versus when we get stuck in that, “No, this is the way,” we have this shrapnel that has injured lots of people around us from that. But it’s kind of the same, too, with the ideas of good and bad. So, again, that boils down to a judgment, often a snap judgment, of how something or someone fits into our ideas of how things should be. But we’re talking about humans here. As we’ve discussed before, humans are complex. They are different. And they absolutely resist fitting neatly into boxes. So, if we go back to behavior and we label it as good or bad, we again lose sight of the need that they’re trying to meet. And we do it a lot with children. “You’re a good boy if you’re doing this thing I want you to do, and a bad boy if not.” So, you’re a good boy if you’re sitting still and being quiet and a bad boy if you’re fidgeting and making noise. But what if your whole body is telling you to move? What if you’ve been sitting for hours and you just can’t do it anymore? If instead we look at the need, we don’t have to judge the person. We can help them figure out how to meet the need or to see if the environment is not the best place for them right now. And what that does is develop a person who doesn’t see themselves as good or bad based on outside opinions, but a person who can listen to their body, state their needs, and find solutions that work in the environments that they’re in. PAM: Yeah. And for me, this, this whole area, it was a realization that people really are different, as we talked about in episode three, and I love that it keeps coming up in most episodes. That realization helped me ease up on judging other people through my personal lens of good and bad. I could see the choices that felt good to me didn’t necessarily feel good to others. And if I wanted to understand their perspective, I needed to learn more about what was going on. And when I have relationships as my priority, I really do want to understand them better. These are my loved ones. These are the people I choose to have in my life. I really do want to understand them better. And I want to help them process through whatever is feeling off for them, finding solutions that feel good to them. Again, in the context of those deeper connected relationships, the framework of good and bad is surface level and limiting. The real world is so much richer and messier all at the same time. ANNA: So, much richer, so much messier. And like you said, that’s where the learning is, though. Sticking to cut-and-dry, one-right-way answers just shuts down learning and connection. Another thing we do is we tend to judge situations as good or bad. And so, I’m just going to pop in a quick paraphrase of the Taoist farmer story who says that maybe might be a more useful idea? And so, to paraphrase, the farmer’s son lets out their one horse. The village says, “What bad luck!” “Maybe,” says the farmer. The horse returns with the herd of other horses. “What good luck!” they say. “Maybe,” says the farmer. The son breaks his leg working with one of the new horses. “What bad luck,” they say again. “Maybe,” says the farmer. The army comes to the neighborhood to conscript the young men. His son isn’t taken because of the broken leg. So, life is filled with events. If we spend our time judging each one as it comes along, we take ourselves out of the moment. We don’t know how things will unfold, so let’s just face what’s in front of us without judgment. That keeps fear out of the equation. It keeps us squarely in the moment, and that is the only thing that we have control over anyway. PAM: I love that point. When we’re judging all the things that are happening around us, that thinking takes us into our heads and it takes us out of the moment. And the other piece is, we lose our sense of flow, not literally flow moment to moment per se. But as the story tells us, flow over time. Things in the world are connected. That is another thing that culturally, we stumble around. We’re very much, “Here’s the thing in front of me today, going to do it efficiently, productively, it’s done, good, bad, however,” and then just move on to the next thing. But there is a thread that connects so many moments over time and it’s so interesting just to keep that lens. It helps us realize we don’t need to judge all the things, because maybe it might be helpful along the way. ANNA: And for me, that thread is really a trust in the unfolding, that I may not see it all now, but there’s a thread and it’s unfolding and I don’t want to be judging each thing as good or bad, because I feel like it derails. And I just want to trust in that unfolding. I think it’s important to realize that when we’re judging other people or their actions, we’re missing this opportunity for deeper understanding. And what usually ends up being a pretty thinly-veiled ploy for control, often, when we’re judging. I think it’s important to look at that for a minute, because when we’re judging someone’s action, what is our goal? What do we want to happen? Do we think it will help our relationship? Do we think it’ll change what they’re doing? Maybe. But how will that feel? And so, then to flip it around, how does it feel when someone’s judging us? Does it make us feel closer to that person? Does it make us want to change our behavior? Most likely, it makes us want to pull away or double down, even if it might not serve us. Judgment really has no place in our relationships. In its place, though, we can use inquiry. We can have this genuine openness and desire to understand, because like you said, these are our most important relationships. I want to understand them. I want to know what makes them tick. I want them to feel good about how we’re moving forward. That keeps us connected as we learn more about each other. And it also allows a place where our concerns or ideas can be met with curiosity and not defensiveness on both sides, because that’s the environment that we’re cultivating. PAM: Yes. Because judgment really is all about us, right?  ANNA: Oh yeah. PAM: It is about how we’re seeing, what we want to happen. But a connected and loving relationship is about both people. I also love and often use the thought experiment of flipping things around to see how I would feel if I was on the receiving end of things, because it doesn’t feel good to be judged. And I notice that my defensiveness rises, leaving me with little space to consider changing things up and learning something new. “No, I’m going to defend this. I’m going to hold on maybe even longer than I would normally if I wasn’t feeling judged.” I am much more apt to be open and curious when someone approaches me with information without that side dish of judgment. As you mentioned, that just feels so much less controlling. It feels like we’re on the same team. We’re going to try and figure this out. You just brought me some new information. And you gave me this space to like hear it, bring it in, and see if it makes sense to me. It’s not controlling anymore. ANNA: Right. Exactly. Now you’re open, you’re curious, you’re learning, you’re both learning, and how different is that? You can learn from each other. I think when we’re feeling judged, it really puts up a wall to what they’re saying. What they’re saying might be helpful, but not when it’s delivered with that side dish of judgment. We’re not even going to hear it. And so, again, these are our most important people. We want to stay connected. So, yeah, just so important to keep in mind. Okay. So, the blame/fault matrix is another paradigm that is so common in our culture. It’s really easy and at times comforting to lay that blame on someone else. If you didn’t do this, think like that, act like this, X wouldn’t have happened. The problem is, when we focus on blame, we never look at our role and we never dig deeper into the whole situation. We’re never getting to that underlying need on either of our parts. And blaming is just a surefire way to create a rupture in a relationship. No one wants the finger pointed at them. It makes us feel that this love that we have is conditional. If you don’t way behave the way I think is good or right, I’m going to blame you for things that have happened. I’m going to withdraw my love potentially. And again, it’s just that judgment and blame. It just creates craters in relationships. I believe ruptures can be healed and that a repair is super important, but we don’t need to just keep creating them. Let’s just try not to keep creating them! PAM: Absolutely. That is an important part of a relationship, the repair, because things aren’t always going to go smoothly, but we don’t need to keep setting ourselves up for these challenges. It’s just so fascinating to think about how urgently people look around to find someone to blame when something goes awry. We all want to. “It’s not my fault. It’s not my fault. No, no, no.” And how often once we find someone to blame, that’s the end of it. We want to move on. It’s not really surprising then when it keeps happening over and over, because we’re not really learning anything that we can bring forward with us for the next time. Instead, when we approach the situation with the energy that we’re all on the same team, we can empathize with our partner or our child or friend about the upset. Because chances are, they aren’t particularly happy about it either. We can listen to them, support them as they process things, and brainstorm with them about different things they might try next time. So, just think about how you’d like others to help and support you when something you do goes sideways. And just try that. How would it feel for me if someone did this? Well, let me try doing that for someone else when things go sideways with something they’ve done or said. ANNA: Oh my gosh. We all just want to be held in those times when things go sideways. We just want to be understood at least, or have somebody not pointing the finger at us, because we know what we’ve done half the time. You know what I mean? We don’t need that outside judgment. We really just need somebody that’s like, “Hey, where do you want to go from here? What can we do next? How can we fix this? What can we do?” And so, it’s just such a different energy to bring and I think especially because we’re talking about our most important relationships, it’s just worth that work to find that kindness and compassion. So, yeah, so important. So, for me, all the things that we’ve talked about today and lots more out there, fall into the idea of black and white thinking and life and for sure relationships are lived in the gray and I really feel like so much suffering and so many relationship issues boil down to this black and white, right and wrong thinking. There’s not one right way to do or be. There just isn’t. We make the choices we make in each moment based upon all kinds of factors, including very changeable things like how much sleep have I had, or food. Understanding the context of the moments, the needs of the individuals involved, and cultivating that open and curious mindset allows us to learn and to grow. We can develop deeper relationships, because they’re based on the understanding that we’re doing the best we can in each moment, and that our behaviors are trying to meet a need. So, when judgment is set aside, we can look at all the factors that make up the context and keep connection at the forefront. We can talk about our needs and the impact something is having on us with an eye to understanding one another and to work together to find solutions that feel good to us both. So, I decided to look up antonyms of “polarizing” when we were naming this episode and their unification, connection, and attachment. And I thought, oh yeah, that really sums it up, why I choose to let go of paradigms that don’t serve me in my relationships, why I choose to remain open and curious. Because being connected in meaningful ways to the important people in my life is my highest priority. PAM: Yes. I think when we see polarizing ideas, things that divide people into two opposing groups, like right and wrong or good and bad, that is a great clue to dig deeper. Things are rarely that simple, especially when it comes to relationships with the people we love. As you said, Anna, life is lived between those two poles, in the gray. And while sometimes that can definitely feel more nebulous, it is also, as we’ve mentioned, so much richer and it’s more connected with the real human beings that we’re choosing to be in relationship with. Celebrate the gray. ANNA: Absolutely. Okay, so let’s talk about a few questions for pondering this week. So, how does it feel when someone puts their ideas of right or wrong on you? I think it’s just always good to flip this around. So, just how does it feel? Because we’ve all had it happen. So, how does that feel? Do you notice an area where polarizing paradigms are impacting an important relationship? How would it feel to let it go and lean in to understand? And I think there’s lots of times now where we have these polarizing beliefs that happen. What would it feel like to let go of the rightness of your position and just lean in to try to understand where that person’s coming from? PAM: I want to bring back, how you mentioned open and curious, and I love how that helps us here. Letting go of feeling right isn’t about replacing it with, “I’m wrong.” ANNA: Right. Or changing your mind at all. PAM: Exactly. It’s more expansive. It’s bigger. It’s about being open and curious to see how else other people are seeing things or feeling about things. ANNA: We just learn more. Again, it may not change our opinion, but maybe it gives us more information about the situation. Or maybe it’s the “through their eyes” that we’ve talked about, too. We see why they got there, because their life is different than ours. Their experiences are different. So, letting go of that strong-held “right” just opens up. Again, it doesn’t mean it’s going to change your opinion necessarily, but I think it will give you a lot more information about the people around you. So, number three. How do you feel when someone blames you for something and you don’t see it the same way. So, that can just give you some good clues about how blaming at any time never feels good, no matter what. If the person thinks that they’re very right, that blaming just doesn’t feel good. And number four, have you seen judgment impact a relationship with someone you love? And so, I think that’s really good to dig in. And I would say if you have children, really look at that, too, because I think we do tend to lean into judging children about how they’re spending their time or what they’re doing and how that is impacting the relationship. But you’ll also see it with your partners and friends and extended family. So, where’s judgment coming into play? See where it’s coming at you, see where you’re putting it out there, and think about what it would feel like if you could let that go. PAM: I think that will be a huge one, too. Because even if we’re not sharing our judgements. Maybe we take that first step, okay. I didn’t say it. At that point, we could start to notice that we may still have an energy about it. We may still be bringing that piece. And most people can sense that, children can sense that. ANNA: For sure. PAM: People can sense when we are bringing a judging energy. And our questions, they feel less open and curious and more pointed when we’re asking questions. ANNA: Right. And we’re less willing to even talk about it. I think we’re less willing to even share our perspectives with people when we feel that judgment coming at us. So, think about that in reverse with people. Why are they telling me this? Because, well, if they’re sensing judgment, that may be stopping that conversation right there. PAM: Because you don’t want to be giving them evidence is what it feels like. ANNA: Exactly. Right. Because you know they’re sitting there waiting for like, what can I judge you about the situation? So, yeah, that’s not the energy we want with these people that we love. That’s not at all. And it’s absolutely something we can change, even if it’s something we’ve done historically, we can absolutely change it. And part of it would be this. So, number five, how would it feel to let go of black and white thinking and really dig into the gray with the people in your life, to trust that they’re doing things for reasons that make sense to them and learning more about them, letting go of these really strong polarizing paradigms? So, I think it will be interesting to steep in that for a little bit and see where it’s impacting your relationships and how that could possibly be different.  PAM: I think that can be just such a fundamental mindset shift and it’s internal. It’s something that we can completely just play with ourselves for the first while. ANNA: We don’t have to make any declarations. We could just play around with it. How does it feel and, “Okay, yeah. I do like the way it feels to just be more open and to not be judging everyone around me.” And I remember someone in my life before telling me that she found her judgements of everyone else was because she was so harshly judging herself. And so, once she could get to that place of not harshly judging herself, she had no need or desire to judge the people around her. And so, that’s another piece to kind of turn around and look at as well. So, we hope that everyone is enjoying their holiday season and hopefully some of the ideas we’ve been discussing will even make those big family gatherings a bit more enjoyable. Thank you so much for listening, and we will be back in two weeks. Take care. Bye! PAM: Bye!

In this episode, we’re sharing a conversation that Pam had with Lucy AitkenRead in 2017. At the time, Lucy unschools her two children and blogs at Lulastic and the Hippyshake. Pam and Lucy talked about her family’s move to unschooling, the hardest parts of her journey, the most surprising bits, as well her husband’s journey to unschooling. We hope you enjoy the conversation! QUESTIONS FOR LUCY Can you share with us a bit about you and your family? How did you discover unschooling? What has your family’s move to unschooling looked like? Can you share a bit about your husband’s journey? Was unschooling new to him? If so, how did you help him learn more about it? What’s been the hardest part of your unschooling journey so far? What has surprised you most about your journey so far? You recently started a group and website called Parent Allies. I’d love to know the inspiration behind it and a bit about your plans! Listen to our conversation on YouTube. THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us. Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more! Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships. TRANSCRIPT PAM: Hi everyone, I’m Pam Laricchia from livingjoyfully.ca, and today I’m here with Lucy AitkenRead. Hi Lucy! LUCY: Hi Pam! How you going? PAM: I’m going very well. Just to let everyone know, Lucy is an unschooling mom of two kids, and I have been following her adventures online for quite a while now, including her family’s experiences living in a yurt in New Zealand, and now their travels back to the UK. So, I’m really looking forward to diving into her unschooling and deschooling experiences at this point on her journey. To get us started Lucy, can you share with us a bit about you and your family? LUCY: Yes, of course. So, I’m Lucy and I’m married to Tim. And he is a Kiwi, but we spent most of our early marriage in London, where I’m from. And that’s where we had both of our daughters: Ramona who is now six, and Juno who is four. We lived really happily, living quite a normal life I suppose, in London, until a couple years ago when we decided to sort of up sticks and move to a forest in New Zealand, where we now live in a yurt. PAM: That is so awesome Lucy. And I’m sure you’re going to share some amusing stories from that time as we go through this. Can share with us how you actually discovered unschooling? How’d you come across it? LUCY: Well yeah, it’s quite interesting for me, because I guess, deep in my heart, I’m a bit of a socialist, and I always really held onto the idea of school as being a really important common good, and that my children would definitely go to school. We would support that school. Because education is something that every child deserves, and people who are able to input into their local schools, it’s a really great thing that we should support. Basically, I had a really strong belief around that. And then I had my children, and my first child Ramona really took me on a huge learning curve, I guess. She’s a child who is just incredibly spirited, and I believe that her spirited nature caused me to ask a lot of questions about how I wanted to raise my children. When our second child Juno was born, we sold everything in our London home and we sold our London home, and we packed our bags into a VW camper van and we went traveling around Europe. And someone had given me John Holt’s How Children Learn, you know, which is always a slippery slope when you pick up a John Holt book, I think. So, I was kind of reading this probably a little skeptically, but also knowing that I was already raising Ramona in quite a radically different way to how I thought I would. I guess my mind was already beginning to open about some of these ideas about raising children respectfully, for sure. But then we went to a forest kindergarten in the Black Forest, in Germany, as part of our big trip around Europe, which we were doing. We’d set aside six months to do that. And then we got to this forest kindergarten, and I was reading How Children Learn, and I think it just was like a potent combination for my mind. I was reading John Holt, and seeing all of these children around me, basically just unschooling in the great outdoors. There are teachers there, and they’re well trained teachers, but they see themselves much more as facilitators for a child’s own learning. And yeah, it was just so incredible to see it in real life in action, exactly what John Holt is talking about. I guess that was the moment when I knew that we would be unschoolers, and that all these ideas I held about school weren’t actually necessarily going to be the reality for my family. And so, then we ended up back in New Zealand with our kids, and even though Ramona was only three at that stage, and Juno was a tiny baby, we rocked up in New Zealand and immediately attended an unschooling camp. And there were 150 people there, and we just kind of arrived and we felt like we’d found our people. This is a community that we wanted to stay within and raise our children within. So, I guess that’s the story. PAM: How did you hear about the camp? Was it just random? LUCY: I googled it, yeah. I actually googled “unschooling NZ,” and instead of any websites coming up or any groups or resources, there was just an event detailing where to turn up and how much to pay. And we were like, “Okay, let’s do it.” Google had spoken. (laughter) PAM: And that is such a nice introduction—actually in person. I know when I first came across unschooling, it was all online. There wasn’t like local gatherings that I knew of. All those connections came so fast and made so much sense, at the point that I was there. But definitely seeing it in action would be a nice introduction, right? LUCY: Yeah, it was really, really cool. And there were definitely a few moments where we were like, “Oh! That’s interesting!” It wasn’t at all like, “Oh we do everything exactly this way.” It wasn’t at all like that. But it was the community that really inspired us, I guess. We really just felt at home within the way that adults were interacting with the children, because that was something we really felt certain about at that stage. We really knew that we wanted to be parents that interacted with our children in a really respectful kind of democratic way, I suppose. And that is what we saw there. And that was probably the magic for us, that made us go, “Ah! Yeah, this is something we’re going to really dive into.” And now we actually go to between four and five unschooling camps a year. They’re a really important part of our family’s unschooling framework, I guess. And all of that. Just a whole massive group of people just being in their element for a few days and every season. We make it happen come hell or high water. PAM: That’s awesome. And you mentioned there too that already before you even came across John Holt etc., that your parenting was less mainstream, right? So, you were kind of already primed for that. You noticed the difference in the relationships even just at camp, even if some of the details still weren’t … ready for you. Because it really is a journey, isn’t it? I remember at first I would read about unschooling and I’d think, “Well, you know, it’s super cool. So much of it makes sense. You know, this little bit … I don’t think we’ll do that. I don’t think we’ll be doing that.” But as the months went by and I learned more and more and I understood why they were doing that, it really was a journey. Because it’s like, “Oh, of course I’m going to do that!” Right? (laughs) LUCY: Yeah, that’s exactly right. And I see it a lot. Like with my writing, I’ll be writing about some sort of specific and then people will really kind of grab hold of that specific and be like, “I can’t see how that can possibly work, da da da da da.” And it’s like, well I guess it really does only work when you look at the whole picture. It’s sort of like people really want the detail, but, I mean, the devil is in it. The devil in the detail. It’s not really so much about the very specific practical details as much as the big picture of the life you’re trying to lead, which is one where you’re not making decisions based on fear, but you’re making decisions based on connection. And having that overall philosophy is what makes then the details make sense. PAM: So true. LUCY: I don’t know if I made sense. (laughs) PAM: It did! Absolutely. Because, if you look for the details too quickly, I think there’s a tendency to kind of interpret them like the rules of unschooling, right? LUCY: Yeah. PAM: “Tell me exactly what you do each day and I will do that.” But it might not work in your family. Because it’s all about how the individuals relate to each other, and how the individuals like to pursue their interests and everything. So, what my day looks like isn’t going to look like anyone else’s, right? LUCY: Yeah, that’s exactly right. So, let’s talk a little more about your family’s move to unschooling. You went to the camp, and it made sense, it connected, you guys loved that. Did your days just kind of keep on going, or how did that work? LUCY: Yeah, yes, basically nothing changed, I guess. We just kept on just living our life. And that’s the thing that, you know, because we’ve never been to school, we just keep living our life, and nothing has really changed much at all. So, the life that we were living with our children age one and three is now pretty similar to age six and four, really. I guess they’re way more vocal in what they want to do. But we still just go about living our lives, all of us ticking away, following our little hopes and dreams each day. Yeah, there’s not been any momentous shift I don’t think, since that camp. It’s just been living each day as it comes to us. PAM: So you just kind of kept on keeping on. That’s awesome. LUCY: Kept on keeping on. Yeah. PAM: Yeah. Have your kids mentioned school at all? LUCY: Ramona does sort of every now and then mention school. And it’s nearly always when there’s been a bit of time in our life where we’ve been quite farm-bound, for whatever reason. She’s an incredibly social kid, and I think sometimes when we drive past a playground she’ll see the hundreds of kids kind of just running around there, and she’ll think, “Oh, I’d do really well in that situation.” So, we tend to work really hard at getting her enough of that social interaction. And when that’s going really well, she doesn’t mention school, or she knows that she’s getting all her social needs met. And every now and then when she does pop out with this sort of question about school, I can almost always look around us and see that we maybe dropped going to something, or we’ve been a little bit caught up with all our farm chores and haven’t quite managed to meet up with as many people as we usually do, or that sort of thing. And one of her best friends started going to school for a couple of weeks, and she was quite intrigued by school at that point, which was really interesting for us. It was somebody that we live on the farm with, and they’re an unschooling family, but their boy wanted to give it a go. And so, they did, and that was really interesting, because I guess we had to ask ourselves the question, would Ramona go to school if she wanted it? And we sort of did a bit of soul searching about that, around that time. And then he decided it wasn’t actually all that. You know, he liked having a lunch box and he liked having play dates after school, and his mum realized that both of those things could be done outside of a school context. And he didn’t like being told what to do, when, and where. And he really quickly just went back to being at home on the farm. And then that moment just kind of disappeared. But it still was an interesting one, to figure out whether, in your unschooling family, you would be willing to support a child going to school. PAM: Yeah, when it first gets mentioned, it can knock you off a bit, just because you feel like, “Well, what am I not doing? What’s wrong? Am I failing? Am I not doing it right?” So, it takes that soul searching—that work to get past that reaction—and realize, this isn’t personal. But, like you said, it’s a great clue to start looking around, you know, and you see that that question—it might be just the solution that they see to a need that’s missing. Right? Like you said. Maybe it’s a need for some more social interaction, and they’re not going to come to you: “Mom, I need more social interaction.” But she may see in her mind that playground full of kids at school and think, “School is a good solution.” And then come at it that way. So, I think the first thing is to look around, like you do, and see if there’s any clues to what need they’re trying to fill with that. Because then from there, you can say, “Well maybe the need is, literally, to check out school.” Maybe. But it might not be. There might be a million other ways to meet whatever it is that they want. It’s a hard time, but it’s so interesting, and when you can get past that initial fear, it’s a big release to do that soul-searching, figure that out, because you’re in a stronger place, aren’t you? LUCY: Yeah, definitely. And I think it might—who is it—it might be Peter Gray. Let me have a little bit of a think about that. But someone speaks about this idea that if a child really wants to go to school and they don’t get to go to school, they might forever feel like school was a club that they weren’t allowed in. And that is probably something to worry about more than your child actually going to school and you being merely kind of phlegmatic about it. I kind of came to two conclusions, I suppose, with this whole soul-searching period. And that was: I really felt like six is too young to make a decision to put yourself into a situation that so drastically impacts your family’s circumstances, and your own well-being. And I do think that school really does impact a child’s well-being. And I guess I decided that I wanted to try and protect Ramona from that, for as long as I could, until she made it really clear that it is school that she’s after. I would try to meet her needs as much as I could, and then, if it still is school, I would support her to do that, but I would do it in a way that supported her as a person, without making all of the school’s toxicness something that impacts her. So, I’d be very nonchalant, shall we say, about testing and exams and homework. You know, all of that stuff I’d just hold really lightly, but support her in going to school, if it really was the need that she had to do that. PAM: Yeah, and I think that’s such an important point, because you’re so right about the atmosphere, the environment, and the effect that it can have on a child. And to realize that it can be such a different experience for a child if we choose not to bring all that home, right? If we don’t buy into, “I need to be on top of them at home to study,” and to use the grades as a judgement of them, and everything. Rather than, just, it’s a place they go for a few hours, and did they have fun? And supporting them if they’re like, “Mom, I have a test this week. I’d like to study. Can you help me study?” or something. Of course, you’re going to help them— LUCY: Totally. PAM: Yeah! Because I can see, if we’re still feeling resentful about their choice—like it was a choice against us—how we could so easily, “Well, you chose school, you have to finish your homework.” You know, to make it as bad as it can be, in hopes that they’ll leave. But that’s just going to hurt! LUCY: Yeah, and I guess that’s why I really like to take the school out of unschooling, you know. And I suppose it’s why I talk more about this other concept, which we might address later on—because for me, it’s not about education or even learning actually, but it’s more about the relationship that you have with your child. So, if there’s any one thing that you’re totally hung up on, it’s a good sign that it’s moved away from being about the important partnership you have with your child and it’s become an unhealthy fixation or something, do you know what I mean? PAM: Yeah, yeah. We talk on our Q&A episodes so much about whenever there’s an issue, go back to the relationship. Does this feel connecting, or disconnecting? And choose the actions that feel connecting. Because no matter the environment, you’re right, it really does all boil down to relationships. And you know what, during my deschooling—though that keeps going—but that realization. Because, at first, my kids left school, and it’s like, “Okay, so I’m replacing the learning that they’re not getting at school.” But, the realization after a few months that it’s not really about the learning. Because the learning’s going to naturally happen if I keep the relationships strong and connected; everything’s going to flow from there. So, I love that point. I was wondering if you might share a little bit about your husband’s journey. Was unschooling a new kind of idea for him, and how did you guys work together along the way? LUCY: Okay so, unsurprisingly my husband is a teacher by trade, and I say unsurprisingly because I know a huge number of teachers in the unschooling world. PAM: So many. (laughs) LUCY: Yeah, it’s like as if their experience in the classroom, you know, actually is the thing that opens their eyes and says there has to be a better way to treat our children and for our children to learn in a really joyful way. So, Tim is a teacher by trade, and he did that for quite a few years, but these days he focuses more on a bit of youth work. Which, for him, is what it was all about. It was being able to help young people find their way in the world by having really healthy connections and relationships with them. So, yeah, teacher by trade, and he really gets the learning stuff, for sure. Like we check in, not formally, but just by nature of the whole thing, once or twice a month about little interesting learning points that have happened with Ramona and Juno. And I guess that his teacher training makes him do that perhaps more than me. So, he’ll point out something that Ramona’s done, which is such a classic learning point, but that she’s come to it completely by herself using an everyday situation. Yeah, so he’s completely on board with the learning side of it, and I guess both of us are still on this learning journey about living democratically and consensually with our children. We’re both trying really hard to read as much as we can and talk together as much as we can. And I guess the challenge is constantly how in a family of four you can all feel as though your needs can be met, and that it can be win-win for everyone. PAM: Yeah, I think the parenting side of the journey, that we’re always learning because they’re always getting older. LUCY: Yeah, yeah, that’s exactly right. PAM: There’s always something new. LUCY: Yeah, I do like to think though that every bit of learning you’ve done paves the way for the next bit of learning. And, right now, with the kind of really incredibly amazing and opinionated and determined six-year-old, I’m thinking about how much this is paving the way for those incredibly opinionated and determined teenage years. (laughs) We’re going to be just like so radically on board with everything they want to do by the time they’re teenagers, because we’ll have developed this sort of trust and acceptance. So, I’m quite excited about the future really, or maybe that’s just incredibly hopeful. PAM: Well, I’ll just share my experience a little bit. The groundwork that you’re laying now and those first couple of years of really doing all this work to figure out the ways we all communicate our needs—it’s even about figuring out our needs, because we’re not used to that. Even as adults, to be able to just reasonably say, “I’m tired.” Or, to really bring ourselves to the moment without being manipulative about it. LUCY: Yeah. PAM: Yeah, to just bring all our stuff lightly, like you were talking about before, and finding ways to work through them and find those kind of win-win-win opportunities for us to move forward. And I must say, by the time my kids got to their early teens and through their teen years, it was never argumentative. It was never issues that way at all. Mostly it was me stretching my comfort zones. (laughs) Because they knew themselves so well, and the trust that we had together. Like, I knew they weren’t making choices or wanting to do things that they didn’t think they were capable of doing. There’s the way to put it. They were choosing things for reasons of their own, that made sense, and that they felt ready to do. So, when I was ready to stretch my comfort zones and help them accomplish those things, we were never at odds. It was all finding ways for myself to support them in ways that I was also comfortable enough with. When my daughter was 13 and wanted to go into clubs for shows, for me to be comfortable I just said, “Sure, I’ll go with you.” You know? So, we did that. But yeah, it never felt like butting heads, let’s put it that way. So, I think you’re right. That was a long way to say you’re right, you’re building an amazing foundation. (laughs) LUCY: (laughs) No, I always absolutely love hearing from people who have older children and who have been through those teenage years, because we talk about those teenage years as if it’s some kind of impending horror show I suppose. And, I mean, I suppose mine was a little bit of a horror show for my parents, but I had an incredibly different upbringing. But I really believe it doesn’t have to be that way. I really believe that this partnership that we’re developing with our kids now is something that lasts your whole life long, and one of the things as well I think that unschooling has done for me—it’s made me trust everyone a lot more. My children have asked that of me, but it’s something that I can extend now to everyone. I’ve become much, much, much less controlling about all these different situations. Like I can remember in the early years of our marriage, I would be texting everyone trying to get them in the right place at the right time, and kind of guessing what people’s needs were, and trying to kind of preempt how we could get them met. And I would just never do that now. I just sort of sit back and see how I could support someone to get their needs met, or, perhaps I can’t, and just need to trust that they’re making good decisions for themselves. And that’s something that you know extends from my children to my in-laws to my neighbor. It kind of is a really cool stance for all relationships, I think. PAM: I just love that Lucy. And what’s really funny is I’m writing a book about the unschooling journey, and this is what I’ve been writing about this week! LUCY: Oh, cool. PAM: Yeah, that point where you realize it’s about being human, and it applies to everyone. And you lose that need to try and control other people “for their own good because you know the best way things will work out so smoothly.” Because, after you do it a few times, isn’t it just amazing all the places that the ways things end up working out, like even better than we could have imagined at first, right? And tried to control it to A, but B was so much more awesome! LUCY: I know! Like seriously, I talk about this a huge amount. Like the ridiculousness of taking a step back and just being like, “Look, I’m not going to get involved in this, I’m just going to see what happens.” And then the thing that happens is so much more better than anything you could have planned for. Yeah, it’s actually, it feels serendipitous. But maybe it’s because it’s the way the world is meant to work. You’re not meant to be hung up on everybody else’s choices. (laughter) It sounds so obvious when we’re talking about it, but it’s really not obvious. And I think I had quite a few anguished years because I felt that I had an important role to play in lots of other people’s lives. PAM: Oh no, I totally can remember just the uptightness back then, of trying to make sure everything worked out. That there needed to be Plan XYZ, and we need to follow it, and if we didn’t I was getting myself so frustrated and worked up. But anyway, anyway. (laughs) I guess we don’t need to talk about that forever. But it’s such a huge part … LUCY: We probably can. PAM: Yeah, exactly. I mean we could share a million stories I’m sure. But … I was wondering what you have found to be the most challenging or the hardest part of your unschooling journey so far? LUCY: (pauses) PAM: Or was that it? (laughs) LUCY: Oh, well, that’s been like a definite shift. The hardest challenge? Probably it’s not the hardest thing but the challenging thing has been: I guess unschooling has taken me on a journey to sort of ask questions about all sorts of different things and to really try and dismantle institutionalized thinking. And it’s a journey that I’m really appreciative of, but it’s been a journey that has definitely shaken the ground beneath my feet a little bit. I was raised in a church, and I was raised in the Salvation Army, which is a really beautiful social justice loving movement of people, but it’s also quite regimented, or ordered, at least. And it’s been interesting for me to sort of look at institutions that I’ve been raised in, that have always provided a sort of structure to my life, and just try and hold on to the really good and beautiful parts of those things while really asking questions about the healthiness of other parts of it. And I guess what it comes down to is this sort of imperialist history of the human race, which is quite a big deal. Maybe we shouldn’t really go there. (laughter) But when you look historically, the last hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years, we’ve been living in an incredibly controlled hierarchical society, that is really, really unhealthy. And I guess that was an unexpected challenge for me, was to become a bit of an anarchist. I mean, not quite an anarchist, but to just want to dismantle some of those structures in society that I don’t think are very healthy. And move away from those that have had a really important role in my life. So yeah, that’s probably been the biggest challenge, I think. PAM: I think that’s a great one, because when we start, we don’t realize how far reaching it’s going to be, do we? LUCY: No. PAM: No, it’s amazing once you start realizing that choice is important. Not only for learning, but then for living. And when you start to see, you start to knock up against all these places where, like you said, the systems where we don’t have choice. And you start questioning every single one, don’t you, by the end of it? LUCY: Yeah and I think I just say to myself, “Lucy, you don’t have to throw the baby out with the bath water.” (laughs) PAM: Yup. LUCY: So, you know, with the church, I guess where I’m at now is holding on to really healthy spirituality, which is really beautiful and really important, I think, whatever your spirituality is, for your well-being. And community and all that sort of thing. So, holding on to that. And then kind of letting the rest of it blow away. So yes, I say that a lot. “Don’t throw away the baby out with the bath water, Luce.” PAM: That is such a great point, that was something that helped me. Because feeling uncomfortable with something didn’t automatically mean to reject it. Which I think lines up with your “Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water” phrasing. And to be able to hold my discomfort alongside my positive feelings about choice and whatever, so that I could dig deeper. Like, when you can hold them both together, that’s when you can start to tease out the pieces that are helpful, like you were saying, alongside the pieces that aren’t working for me anymore. Because automatic resistance or knee-jerk “noes” aren’t much more useful than blindly following things either, right? Because you don’t understand yourself better through that process. We talk about that with our kids, right? Try not to automatically say no. Maybe you can say yes, but also, “Say yes more with your kids,” doesn’t mean always say yes. Because there’s no thought or consideration in that either, right? LUCY: Yeah, but we so want black and white answers, don’t we? PAM: I know, we do! LUCY: (laughs) PAM: Those rules are so easy, right? (laughs) LUCY: Yeah, we just want it there in black and white. We just want to be able to go, like, “This is how it goes, this is the rule, this is what I need to do in this situation.” Yeah, but it’s just not really how we are, and it’s not really how the world should be. We need to kind of learn to operate in those gray areas, and to be flexible and fluid and resilient, and not need that sort of sturdy ground under our feet, but to feel really comfortable just floating in the chaotic unknown gray substance. (laughs) PAM: Yeah, and like you said before, going back to the relationship, right? When you don’t know—yes, no, I have no rule to follow. Okay, let’s look and see foundationally how that is going to impact that relationship. Because, when it comes down to it, school years, childhood, those are just a flash of a lifetime right? And these are relationships that we’re going to have for our whole lifetime. They will always be our child. We’ll always be their parents, no matter the age, right? So that relationship is a lifetime thing. So, it’s so useful to keep that as your guide. LUCY: Yeah. So, I am curious—what has surprised you most about your journey so far? LUCY: Okay. The most surprising thing has probably been how unsurprising it has been, in the sense that it’s just been a life lived, I guess. And I think like maybe a few years ago when we were at the start of this unschooling journey, I think I imagined that with a six-year-old and four-year-old we would be rammed with projects and activities and it would be like a non-stop kind of educational life that we were all living together. And actually, I think that’s been the surprise, that it’s not. It’s just—we just wake up, and we do our thing. And we have really fun days. We have those epic days of non-stop projects and making and learning, but we also have a huge number of just little bits and bobs in the day, da da da. And I think that’s the thing that is surprising for others when they sort of see our lives in action. (laughs) We just have a really slow, really simple life that we’re just trying to live with as much time and space and patience and freedom every day. And I just think that the key to that is to not really be doing loads and loads and loads and loads of stuff. So that’s probably been the most surprising thing about it, is how unsurprising it’s been. PAM: I love the way you describe that, because that was a huge revelation for me too. The concept of time. Time and space. When I write about unschooling, I use that phrase so bloody often. (laughs) Time and space. Because we are so used to go, go, go, go. I had no clue how much actual time and space we need; that we would take if given the opportunity. LUCY: Yeah. PAM: Right? To process, that down time, which we used to think of as “lazy,” or not doing anything productive, et cetera. How valuable and important that time is. I had no clue. (laughs) LUCY: Yeah, and, you know, it might feel like it takes an hour for everybody to put their shoes on, so you can go out to the woods—I’m speaking from experience from this morning. And that hour is really important because if you feel like you’ve got an hour for everybody to find their shoes and put them on, you’ve got space then for the trauma that happens when you can’t find socks with the right seams in the right place. You’ve got time to validate that person’s feelings and hug them until they’re ready to move on from that moment. You don’t have to snap at people to get them to hurry up, and you don’t have to forget things because you’ve all rushed out the door too quickly. You can definitely have all the snacks you need, you can definitely have the right socks with the right seams, and you can definitely all have the space you need to be patient with each other. And increasingly I see—perhaps it’s in contrast because we’re here in England at the moment, and I’m quite busy with lots of different work things, and we’ve got hundreds of people it feels like to catch up with while we’re here, like friends and family. And so, at the moment, we are kind of a little bit like go, go, go, and it’s in such stark contrast to our life in the yurt, which is just basically no, no, no. (laughs) Just like slow, slow, slow I should say, actually. It’s just really, really slow. And here I find myself having a quickening of the breath and a kind of, “(gasp) We don’t have time for me to validate all of these emotions!” And I realized how much of my parenting comes down to basically not really doing very much, but just being really present with your children and having the time to let them feel everything they need to feel, and connect with them in all those down times. PAM: Yeah, that patience to be with them, right? Like you were saying, validate. Because that patience keeps your connection with them, and they see, through your patience, that you see them. LUCY: Yeah. PAM: Right? Because if we’re trying to rush them through things, they really don’t feel seen. Like I’m just putting myself in those spots. When I feel rushed through things, you have to kind of close off part of yourself, don’t you? Because you don’t have the time to feel whatever it is that’s coming up. Yeah, that’s brilliant. You recently started a group and a website called Parent Allies, and I have joined. I am really looking forward to that. And I would love to know the inspiration behind it, and a bit about your plans for it? LUCY: Cool. So yeah, ParentAllies.org is the website, but there’s also a Facebook page and a Facebook group. And the group is probably the bit that I’m most excited about, because there’s a real community rising up around this idea. And the idea is taken from social justice movements, where in every rights movement so far there’s been a group of people who are in the sort of dominant group but have chosen to stand next to the marginalized group and advocate for them and support them and be people who will just show solidarity and do whatever they can to allow this group to have their rights met. You’ve seen it in the Civil Rights movement, and in all sorts of movements over history. I’ve come to believe that children are one of the last marginalized groups in society; groups where it’s really socially accepted to basically marginalize them. You have conversations on Facebook where people are just like, “Yeah I don’t like kids.” And they’re almost proud or cool to sort of say it. And I really believe that there’s quite a systemic marginalization of children too, just in things like not having steps in public toilets so they can reach the taps or reach the toilet without having to climb over this grim thing. So those are a couple of little examples. And the idea is that parents are invited to be allies to their children, to advocate for their needs and to show solidarity with them, and see their role as one where they’re partnering with their child to make sure their rights are fully honored and upheld. On the website we are putting out lots of resources for people who are in different situations to share how they are allies to their children. And this is where it’s really exciting for me, because it’s moving right out of the education sphere. And I guess the root of the concept of parent allies, for me, came because I’ve been writing about unschooling for five years or so, and every time I write about unschooling in terms of respecting children, I have a lot of teachers and mums and dads of children who are at school say, “Well, how can I do this at home?” or “I feel like I do this, but my children do go to school.” And so, by talking about parents as allies, we’re moving out of learning. We’re moving into the whole of life, whether you’re at school or not at school. Whoever you are in the world, you can be an ally to your child. So, the website is meant to be a resource for people who are choosing to be that. And the Facebook group is a really, really supportive group where people can come in and they can ask for advice. You have to ask for advice—we don’t just give it willy-nilly, because I guess I’ve identified that that is a bit of a problem in our world. We’re so quick to give advice, rather than simply hearing someone’s story, or hearing someone’s problem. So, there’s a tag where you can just say #solidarityplease, and that’s where you can come and you can talk about something that’s been bothering you or something you’re finding really hard, without getting any advice. You just get people saying, “Love to you” or “You’re doing really well” or, just showing solidarity. And then you can also ask for advice. And you can also get a high-five. You can go into the group and you can be like, “High five! I did really well with my kid today because this has been a bit of a struggle and I realized that in my role as an ally I need to help her and get this need met.” And then, you know, they’ll give details, and then everybody will say, “High five! High five!” (laughs) And it’s sort of like, I guess it meets needs. It meets those needs of the parents to be heard, and in a way that is also respectful to their children. And it is a way to receive advice if you’re struggling with how to be an ally. I think so often we have—I don’t really know what it is—maybe it’s a thing to do with human nature, but so often parents will think that they’ve got a problem that can only be solved with a punitive or disrespectful measure. They think, “Oh my kid doesn’t like brushing their teeth,” for example, “So the only thing I can do is hold them down and clean their teeth.” They sort of put up their own barriers and they say, “There’s no other answer. I’m mostly a respectful parent but, in this situation, I have to coerce my child.” And the idea of the group is that we kind of crowd-source solutions. So very often people go in there and they’re like, “My child doesn’t want to clean their teeth.” And then we can say, “Oh I’ve been there and this worked for me, and this worked for me.” Because something I’ve found with parenting and problems is that answers one, two, and three don’t work, but four and five and six and seven and eight and nine might work. And I really think that in our role as an ally to our child, we can find the patience to look for four, five, six, seven, eight, and nine. Because it’s so important to us to remain connected and remain in partnership, and to respect their rights, that we’re willing to dig deep for those creative solutions. (sigh) That’s a little bit. PAM: Yeah, that’s beautiful. And I love the idea of expanding it to all parents, and even the “come get a high-five” deal. Because it’s still an unconventional way to parent, right? If they tried to share that with like a more conventional friend or whatever, they would get the side-eye, like “What the heck did you—just tell them to brush their darn teeth!” (laughs) LUCY: Yeah, “My child’s got a really creative urge to paint on the walls, so today I dedicated a whole part of the wall so my child could literally just paint the wall. Can I get a high-five?” You can imagine having that conversation with a conventional parent, and them just being like, “You let your child paint on the wall?!?” Whereas in the group, everybody is like, “Rock on! You’re amazing that you could come up with a solution for that urge!” PAM: Yeah, that works for everyone. Because, as we were talking before, when we were talking about school, there are ways. If that’s a necessary part of your life, there are ways to still respect and nurture and care for your relationship with your child. Just because school is part of the picture doesn’t mean all your relationship has to be about control. LUCY: Exactly. And I used to find myself writing to unschoolers, and unschoolers at heart, and what I mean by that is people who loved all of this rights, respecting, freedom-loving stuff, but did, for whatever reason, have to send their children to school. and I guess that is really why I tried really hard to come up with a term to describe all of the people that are wanting to live this way with their children, whether their kids are at school or not. Because certainly we need parents and teachers within the education system—which I believe is incredibly coercive and oppressive—we need people in there standing up for children and saying, “You know what, it is a child’s right to go to the toilet when they need to go to the toilet.” You know, we need allies within the education system. My kids are having fun, by the way. (laughs) I’m sure you can probably hear them, and it sounds horrible and terrifying, but they’re all gleeful sounds. (laughs) PAM: (laughs) No, that’s lovely. Oh, and, I was going to mention, Emma and I, we do a book chat every couple of months, and we’re reading the Childism book. LUCY: Oh, cool. PAM: I forget her name—I’ll put it in the show notes [Elisabeth Young-Bruehl]. And I’ll have links to your Facebook group and your website, and all that stuff as well. I think that’s awesome. People are going to have a lot of fun checking that out. LUCY: Oh, cool. PAM: And I want to thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. It was a lot of fun to finally get to chat with you Lucy. LUCY: Yeah, totally. I feel kind of like, you know, we’re basically friends now, rather than people who know a little bit about each other from the internet. (laughs) PAM: Yeah, exactly! Yeah, I was very much looking forward to chatting with you. LUCY: Yeah, it’s been really lovely to be on here. Thank you so much for having me. PAM: Yay! And before we go, where is the best place for people to connect with you online? LUCY: I would probably say YouTube. People find me really personable on YouTube for some reason. It’s kind of a new channel, and I’ve been writing for seven years but only doing YouTube for a couple of years. But I think people find videos really helpful in a way that perhaps writing isn’t so. So, I’m on YouTube with my channel Lulastic and the Hippyshake. And I update that really regularly, like every single week, whereas other parts of the internet I’m slightly more like I pop in and pop out. PAM: Awesome. I will definitely have the link to your channel there as well. LUCY: Cool. PAM: Thank you very much and have a great day. Have fun with the kids!

In this episode of Exploring Unschooling, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about navigating all the needs in our unschooling families. Navigating all the needs can be one of the biggest puzzles of parenthood. In many cases, we’re going from only being responsible for ourselves, to then being in partnership with someone else, to then adding children one by one. And as the children are growing, they each have their own ideas and their own personalities and their own needs. And so, the number of needs that exist in our family at any given time is just increasing as we have more children. In our conversation, we talk about some common challenges that come up, how to approach problem solving with curiosity, and ways to have conversations with our family that move us from trying to control and direct to collaboration. We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships! Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us. Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more! Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ANNA: Hello! I’m Anna Brown from Living Joyfully and I’m joined by my co-hosts Pam Laricchia and Erika Ellis. PAM AND ERIKA: Hello! Hi! ANNA: Happy to have you both here. Before we get started, I wanted to encourage you to check out our Substack, When School Isn’t Working, at whenschoolisntworking.substack.com. It’s a great resource to share with friends who are feeling stuck and when you’re hearing those stories about kids being upset or crying or things not working and people just feeling at their wit’s end. It’s just a good place for that and we would love to have you join us there. Today on the podcast, we’re talking about navigating all the needs. This is a big topic and I’m excited to have the chance to dig into it today. Erika, would you like to get us started? ERIKA: I would! I love this topic, too, and it’s been a monthly theme on the Living Joyfully Network which was really fun. So basically, I see navigating all the needs as one of the biggest puzzles of parenthood. In many cases, we’re going from only being responsible for ourselves, to then being in partnership with someone else, to then adding children one by one. And as the children are growing, they each have their own ideas and their own personalities and their own needs. And so, the number of needs that exist in our family at any given time is just increasing as we have more children. I only have two children, but it can still present so many interesting challenges, because as we’re always saying, people are different, and that includes our kids who we may have even assumed would be like us, but then they turn out to have quite different needs than we do. So I wanted to give a couple of common examples of just where the idea of navigating all the needs might come up and then I’m excited to see what nuances we dive into in our conversation.  One that seems to come up a lot is when some of us may like to go out of the house to do activities and others don’t as much or as often and so what can we do then? And another is with sleep. People have different needs for how long they sleep, what time they sleep, the conditions for sleep, and this can be a real puzzle in families.  And finally another example that comes to mind was during that time of early childhood when we have babies and toddlers and how to fit in the care needs of the adults when the children just have so many seemingly constant care needs. Just the basics like eating, showering, rest, and movement. Sometimes it can just feel overwhelming to try to figure out these kind of challenging moments.  And what I like about the kind of deep processing and thinking that we do here on the podcast and in the Network and really just on my unschooling journey overall is that kind of processing invites me to slow down, get curious, and really assume that there are ways to figure it all out. Everything can’t always happen at the same time, but there will be solutions that we can find that will address all the needs the best that we can. And so, I think coming in with that kind of mindset really helps when it starts to feel like there’s just too many competing needs. So, those are my initial thoughts. PAM: Good ones. I love your examples. Those are pretty common ones that we hear about and see in the Network all the time. And, for me, and when I’m thinking back to the transition to unschooling, the idea of meeting all the needs, at first it could just feel overwhelming. It’s like, how on earth? Someone needs to kind of judge which needs we’re going to meet and which ones we can’t meet and here’s the most effective slash efficient way to meet those needs.  And we really feel like we’re doing our best for the people that we love. And it can feel very disappointing, disconcerting when people don’t appreciate all the work we did to think all that through and figure this out. That was a lot of work right there. That’s really when my mantra for myself of being open and curious came in. And it was encouraging to hear from other unschoolers who were further on the journey than I. It is possible it can be done. And so, I’ll try it and see. It was making that shift to being open and curious. Open to it doesn’t mean me not thinking it through at all. I can have ideas that consider everyone who’s involved and also the bigger picture context that I see that others might not see, etc. But as we were talking about in the last episode people can’t read our minds. If I just show up with a plan that’s the most effective and efficient, then how are you going to get buy in? When people don’t know what’s going on. And when the kids are younger, then maybe that’s your partner. Anybody else who’s involved.  The communication holds the clues, even if they’re not verbal from our kids. The resistance, the crying, all those pieces are communication to tell us when something that we’re trying to do is or isn’t working and helping. So being open and curious was so helpful just to be open to seeing and hearing other people’s perspectives and what their needs are.  And sometimes it’s helping them sort out what the actual need is. “I want to do this.” Why? What’s going to be really fun about that? And we can join them in that excitement rather than trying to shut things down right away. If we want to navigate all the needs we need to be open to hearing about them and to actually find or try to find the root of it. Because maybe I want to go here, I want to go to the park. And if you can get more into the details of it, then it can be a lot easier to find that common ground where we can meet that need.  Like you were saying, Erika, maybe it’s not right now, maybe it’s okay if we do it in the evening when someone else is home to stay with someone who doesn’t want to go. Just being so curious about, what does that really mean to you? What would feel good about doing that thing? So that we can meet that need.  Getting to the need rather than the action that someone’s proposing that would meet the need. There’s a distinction, a level, a depth to it. So once we can start getting to the needs themselves and then get curious. Oh, what if we did this? What if we did that? And just being totally open to the yes, no, maybe, like what if we did that? That was one of the things I managed to keep going forward with because, oh my gosh, kids really are capable. They really are capable of understanding that piece, what they would love the most about this. And being able to share that kind of information and to be able to hear from us even if it is disappointing. We can’t make that work right now. We don’t have the car or whatever, whatever. We’ll need to save up a bit of money. Whatever the thing is but it can really be a conversation. And that’s why we love using the word navigate. Right? Because it’s not, let’s figure out the answer. It’s not the answer. You may eventually come to a path and you’ll take the next step on the path and it might tweak what you know along the way before you ever get to the end of whatever the moment is. But yeah, for me, it was so much about the shift to being open and curious with our kids and having those conversations. ANNA: Okay, so many things have bubbled up. I think a big piece was what you said, Erika, was the slowing it down. Because I can be about efficiency. But efficiency is usually me jumping to an outcome. So, that was another big piece, bringing open and curious. Letting go of whatever outcome.  Because you know my brain when I hear a problem. So somebody’s telling me they want to do this, they want to do that. I am trying to solve the puzzle because I like to do that. But I’m often locking in on a particular solution and it’s not flexible at that point. And so that was a big piece of me just letting go. I don’t know how this is going to play out. We have a lot of competing needs but I’m going to slow down. We’re going to dig in a little bit like you were saying Pam. Get to what’s underneath of it.  Okay what’s at the playground? Oh you’re actually just wanting to fly this kite or do this particular thing. We can do that right out here in the street in front of us or in the backyard. Okay, you’re not wanting to go because you want to still play your game on your device. Okay, we can bring that with us or we can set up something.  Once we have those conversations, things open up. Two other things that bubbled up, one was creativity. I think when we slow down and have that open and curious mindset, that’s where the creativity comes in and kids are so creative. Because I would sometimes get stuck on maybe what seems fair or something that would be in my mind about it and their solutions I’m thinking hmm, does that really work? But they were both happy with it. So it was okay. Why am I inserting anything into this? But when we’re all creatively listening to what the roadblocks are for each person, we get a chance for everybody to be creative. Yeah, I’m okay to wait till tomorrow. Can we then add this thing to it if we do it tomorrow? Yes, we can do that and then this time we can get this. So, that creative problem solving, collaborative energy I really loved.  And I think another big big piece was the mindset shift to trust. For me, I had to have this deep abiding trust that we could solve it, that we could figure out a way that we could all feel comfortable. And again, it might take a little bit of time. It might not be right in that moment, but that trust is so important.  What I found in our family was me having that trust suddenly fostered that trust in everybody. Even when we bumped up against something that felt like there’s no solution, if I was feeling a little low and wondering if we were going to get there, they would say, we’re going to figure it out! And so I loved that it was just the energy of we’ll just keep at it. We’ll figure it out. We may have to step away for a minute and come back depending on what it is but there is room to trust that we can find solutions that feel good to everyone. And so, that’s the problem-solving piece of when you have those competing needs but I think you touched on too, Erika, that just sometimes it’s young kids and how do we take care of ourselves and all of those pieces and that’s a little bit different but I think the slowing it down, creative energy, trusting that there’s plenty of time and that we can find it, calms me enough to then see the moments where I can take care of myself or the moments where we can create a little bit more space around something. Anytime I’m getting worked up and tight or too far ahead of myself it actually just compounds whatever is happening in the moment that’s feeling stressful. ERIKA: Yeah, if we get too caught up in seeing the finish line, we can picture how it would work, we have the vision of that. And if we get stuck there, then we can’t see all the other possibilities that really could get us to the same place. With the little kids situation, I think a lot of parents really try to just do it all themselves and not ask for help, because that’s the vision. And they should be able to do it. And so, just little things like, there are lots of ways that we can solve this problem. There are ways that we haven’t thought of yet.  Getting creative, getting unconventional, what works for someone maybe it doesn’t even work so well for someone else. What we see working for someone else may not be the solution for our family. It just depends on the different individuals in our family.  And I think when we really value every family member’s contributions to these conversations, it’s just so amazing. It’s such a great experience for kids. It’s a great experience for parents to be able to all be working together as a team. It’s something that we might not have experienced ourselves as kids and so I think that’s why it has a learning curve and takes some time to understand, how do we even do this? I’m so used to the parents just saying what’s going to happen and then that’s what happens and that’s the answer. But we all know that sort of parenting has some downsides to it.  If we’re trying to do something different, getting everyone involved in the conversation, making sure that everyone knows, I hear your needs, too, and those are also important. It’s as important to me as getting my needs met and we can figure out a way that all of these things can happen. That’s a really valuable problem-solving skill and important conversational skills to have that they can take with them in their adult lives. PAM: Yes. Two things that bubbled up for me. One both of you were speaking about is I remember when the kids were younger and I was trying to navigate my own needs in this very hands-on care season. What I found was when I was trying to make those plans for the shower or whatever, I would try to plan it. It would be like, okay at 3:00 they have their nap and I’m gonna take my shower. But then they don’t fall asleep at 3:00 and my shower plans are shot for another day. That shift from trying to plan ahead and making life fit those plans versus, I’m just gonna pay attention to when I can have ten minutes to jump in the shower. It may not look like we’re expecting. Maybe somebody drops in and they can hold the baby for ten minutes while I go jump in the shower. I don’t have to entertain them. They would love to have some quiet time with the baby. Then it’s the creativity you were talking about.  These are the things that I would like to do and I’m going to watch out for moments, so adding those into the flow weaving them into what’s actually happening, versus trying to create what happens to match some future plan I have in my head. So, that was the first thing that bubbled up. The other piece is something I bring up when these conversations come up, when we’re chatting with our kids. It doesn’t have to be everybody involved talking together to come up with the plan. Maybe it’s me going and talking with one child and trying to speak with them about what their needs are and why this doesn’t feel good because having an audience maybe just doesn’t feel good to them or getting comments from others trying to work it out. Giving people the space to think about their needs to talk about their needs to feel validated to be validated about their needs and then with a deeper understanding that you can go talk to the next child and bring up why that doesn’t feel good because of this or that. “Maybe we could try this.” There’s a depth of understanding as they’re learning a little bit about each other as well through me alongside trying to figure it out. So there were times when I was doing that circle for a while until we figured out, oh yeah that’ll work, that’ll work, that’ll work. Okay off we go! So, that was one piece.  And then the other piece was for ones who aren’t as much into the conversation, they’re still communicating even as young kids. “I don’t want to talk about it,” that’s still communication, right? That’s letting you know something, maybe just getting some sort of short word, maybe a shrug, maybe a nah and just circling back. And also knowing okay that is not the child in this season that I go and give long five-minute paragraphs explaining all the context and everything that’s going on.  Maybe it’s like three seconds. Does thinking about doing this sound good and we’re done. I get feedback and then I can go off and think if it did or did not sound good. It’s just understanding the people who we are talking with and engaging with and communicating with that it might not always be all about the words. ANNA: That’s so important. Not everybody is that deep conversationalist who is able to even articulate their needs, but I love what you did with that separate space because I think that helps them have the space to think about it. Because especially if they’re siblings, I don’t want to do that while they’re trying to think about what their need is. It’s hard, but giving them that quiet space where they can say, okay, this part I don’t mind, this part I do. I love that piece.  And then there was something that you said, Erika, that I wanted to highlight again. I think you stated it is like sometimes looking for the unconventional solution and what that brought to mind for me was sometimes in these situations we’re taking that outside lens of how other people see this or how are other people doing it and I think that can really derail us. Even if we take it within an unschooling environment and take something like sleep. Some families have this around-the-clock thing going and it’s working very well because it’s working for their child and that makes sense and that could be a solution.  Or maybe in your particular family you are thinking, that wouldn’t work because of your partner’s schedule or because of this thing or because of my own whatever. You don’t have to do it that way. I think what I wanted to pull out from when you said that was just really circle the wagons and look at the people that are involved in your family, because whatever solution you come up with that you all feel good about, it doesn’t matter what it looks like to the outside world. It really doesn’t. No one cares. They don’t. They’re wrapped up in their own thing so just really finding the creative solutions that feel good to you.  You might get a side eye from an in-law or something else if you decide to do around-the-clock or something different, but if you know it’s working for you and your kids, that’s all that matters. So, sometimes watch that outside noise, because I think that’s one thing that gets in the way of us finding the creative solutions. ERIKA: Yeah I had made a little note that says “make sure you’re not just responding to what they will think about our solutions.”  I know we talk about this a lot, but it’s not like you find the one answer and then that’s going to work forever either. As needs come up, as we see what’s rubbing, as problems come up, conflicts, whatever it feels like in your family, then we do it again. So we get practice figuring it out. I’ll catch my husband saying something like, “But you like doing the XYZ.” It’s frustrating when they change their minds about how things used to work and now they want something different. But I think that happens to all of us.  We all are growing and changing and so what works to meet our needs during one season, it’s not gonna work for another season. That was another thing I wanted to bring up, seasons. Just to keep grounding back into even when this feels like too many needs at once eventually it’s going to change. ANNA: Yeah yeah and just really quickly, I think what you just said could actually be helpful for the outside voices too. To just say, “for now”. This is what’s working for us for now so maybe that calms them if they’re thinking wow that’s looking really unconventional or strange but instead, it’s like oh they found something that’s feeling good for now. Sorry, go ahead! PAM: That’s fine, that’s great and because what I was taking away from that, I love the seasons thought and I think it can help in both ways. When things are going well, it’s not getting attached, like your husband saying, “But this is the way it’s been.” “You like this thing,” or, “You don’t like this thing.” And not taking it in as a failure if we’ve solved this. This is the way that works for us now and if something breaks in that like stops working, starts rubbing, if we take that on us as a failure, then our energy can feel judgmental to the person who has changed. “Why did you change?  Why don’t you like this anymore?” I like all those pieces.  So, thinking of it as seasons can help with that and then also when things aren’t going well. When you’re in a season when things are rubbing, when you’re still trying to figure out how this might work where everyone’s needs are getting met. Whether it’s trying to figure out sleeping arrangements or whatever, whatever, it can feel like you’ll be stuck there forever and like you’ll never find a solution, etc.  So, again reminding ourselves that this is a season and like you were saying earlier, I know we’ll figure this out at some point. Not putting agendas and timetables and targets on it can just be so helpful to keep that open and curious energy as you’re navigating. ANNA: Well, thank you everyone for joining us. I hope you enjoyed this conversation. I know we’re not solving how to navigate all the needs but hopefully some ideas about slowing down, being creative can help. Because for me, that shift of energy can make such a big difference. I appreciate all the things that came up during this call and hopefully it will spark some ideas for meeting the needs of your families.  We would love, love, love for you to join us at the Living Joyfully Network. It is such a beautiful supportive community and we love diving into these topics. It feels great to move through some of these situations with other people because we’re all so different.  We’re coming from different countries, different phases of life, different ages of children but the ideas and that intention is there and it really makes such a difference for the conversations. I find them just so rich and really, really enjoy it.  If you would like to learn more and join us you can follow the link in the show notes. Thanks for listening and joining us today.

For this week’s episode, we’re sharing the next Foundations episode of the Living Joyfully Podcast with Pam and Anna, Every Moment is a Choice. It’s common in our culture to look at our lives in terms of “have-tos,” but staying in that space takes away our agency and our joy. By getting curious about our have-tos, we can figure out what is really important to us and play with ways to make the things we do more enjoyable. And in difficult moments, when it really feels like terrible things are happening to us, we still have the choice of how to respond, what story we tell about our situation, and what energy we bring to it. Realizing how much choice we have can be so empowering! We hope today’s episode sparks some fun insights for you! Listen to our conversation on YouTube. THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us. Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more! Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships. EPISODE QUESTIONS Do you find yourself saying “I have to” a lot? Can you find any patterns around when you see it happening more frequently? How does it feel to think about having choices in each moment? What helps you find your center when moving through a challenge? What choices do you see around the stories you are currently telling about your life? TRANSCRIPT ANNA: Hi, and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast! We’re happy you’re here and interested in exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world. In today’s episode, we’re going to talk about choice. I love talking about and grounding ourselves in choice, because life is filled with choices from the mundane to the epic. And for the most part, it’s an invisible process. We’re making decisions on the fly throughout the day. Other decisions are made with a lot of deliberation and forethought and take a lot of time, but the ability to choose is something that empowers us. The knowledge that, no matter what, we have a choice. PAM: Right, and that is so surprisingly easy to forget in the moment. I can find myself moving through parts of my day almost by rote, and sometimes that means I’m in the flow of things, feeling good and accomplishing things I want and choose to do. And other times things start to rub. When I start hearing myself say, “Oh, I have to do this,” that feeling that I don’t have a choice is a good clue that I’m probably feeling a bit overstretched or under-resourced, and it’s a great clue to step back, take a breath, and just take a moment to look around a bit. It’s so easy to fall into the “I have to” trap, because it is used so much in our culture. The phrase “I have to,” or, “You have to,” has become so commonplace that we’ve mostly stopped questioning it altogether. It just seeps into our everyday language. We say we have to go to the store, we have to brush our teeth, we have to go to bed, and so many more things. And soon, we start to believe that we have to do all the things, that we don’t have a choice, that we are, in fact, prisoners to a long list of have to’s. And not only that, when we come to feel that we don’t have choices and buy into this whole “have to” ethos, it’s usually not long before we start to feel pulled to impose them on others. “This has to be done and you have to help,” which then can lead to judging others around the things we think they have to do. Like, “Why aren’t they doing this thing I don’t want to do, but have to do?” It is so disempowering and disconnecting. So, taking a moment to look at a situation, any situation, even small everyday ones, and noticing that choices actually exist helps us let go of that overwhelming feeling of being trapped in our days. It reminds us that we have agency. We can use phrases like, “I have to,” or, “You have to,” as red flags, signs that it’s a good time to step back and see where we’re feeling pinched, where we’re feeling controlled, because definitely those things can sneak up on us bit by bit. And then, we can dig deeper to identify our underlying needs, find the choices in the soil of the have to’s and shift things up to meet our needs in ways that don’t include controlling others or even using control tactics on ourselves. Realizing that I always have choices has been such a freeing and empowering mindset shift for me. It’s just been amazing. ANNA: Oh my gosh. For me, too. It’s been such a critical part. The shift from feeling like life is happening to me, to understanding my agency and navigating this thing called life. It’s funny, I have a good friend whose husband does not buy into this idea at all. So, he believes, “There aren’t always choices, Anna,” but I find it so interesting. And one of the examples he used was, “Well, we have to do the animal chores in the morning.” So, they have a small farm, donkeys, goats, chickens. And here’s the thing. They don’t have to do that. They could choose to re-home the animals. They could skip the morning chores or do them later. I know the lap of luxury these animals live in and they would be just fine. They could also hire someone to do the chores for them. There’s always a choice and with each choice, we hone in on our priorities. They don’t want to re-home the animals. They love them. They love bringing the special treats in the morning and moving the donkeys to the track to watch them play and run. They don’t have to do those things. They want to. And maybe they decide it’s not worth the money to pay someone else, or in that choice, they realize that they actually enjoy it and might miss it and don’t want someone else doing it for them. And so, then it’s like, okay, so if we’re feeling pinched about time, in that exploration, they might find they’d rather free up time in another way, adjusting something they don’t enjoy as much. What a different feeling than to feel we’re held hostage by an obligation. And maybe it’s just semantics and energy, but I really think it’s worth examining our language about any of these have to’s and deciding if that language is serving us. Is it helping us find joy? Is it helping us enjoy the things around us? Could examining it as a choice help us understand what we actually want to do and how we want to spend our time and resources? PAM: Yes. I think what can happen over time is that we make a choice and then it’s new and exciting. We relish it. It’s fun. And then, over time, we shortcut our language down to, “I have to.” For me, it feels like as the activity becomes more commonplace in my days, “Every morning I’ve got to go take care of the animals,” my internal language becomes more efficient. “I have to take out the animals, I have to take the dogs out,” all the all the things. “I have to go grocery shopping, I have to clean the bathrooms.” And I think the word obligation is a great way to describe that feeling and the growing weight of it. And I think we can naturally start to resist that obligation and maybe even start to resent it. So, if our internal “have to” language doesn’t catch our attention, eventually that growing weight of obligation or resentment definitely might. So, time to dig in and see what’s in there. What’s the rub? And what’s so interesting is so often digging in helped me remember my why. So, you had that wonderful example about the animals. I’m going to take a quick moment to look at cleaning bathrooms, because it is a very basic example. But to give you an idea of ways to dig into those festering feelings. So, I can remind myself that I enjoy the feeling of walking into a clean bathroom. If I realize that’s even feeling a bit stale for me, I can start there. So, maybe I choose to spruce up the bathroom a bit, bringing in a plant or two, or some art for the walls. Maybe I print out an inspirational quote or two that makes me smile, or a couple of pictures that make me laugh and I tape them to the mirror. How can I more enjoy walking into this mostly utilitarian room? I find that is such a fun way to look at things. It’s like, cleaning the bathroom, what do you mean decorating it or whatever? But that is a wonderful aspect to look at, too. I can also contemplate the cleaning schedule that I’m holding myself to. There are no bathroom police that are going to come and arrest me if I don’t stick to it. So, what if I change that up, extending the period between deep cleans? How does that feel? I can try it out and see. That’s something you can always play with and is likely to change over time, depending as the number of people rise and fall. So, just because we’ve done it weekly for years doesn’t mean it has to be weekly forever more. That frequency may well change over the seasons of our lives. And we can look at the how. How can I make it easier for me to slip into cleaning? Can I keep the cleaning supplies in the bathroom ready to grab quickly? That may mean having more supplies up front, but they each last longer, because they’re only being used in one bathroom. So, it works itself out. Can I make the process itself more enjoyable? I often put on my headphones and listen to podcasts or sometimes upbeat music to help my body get moving. Or we could also choose to pay for cleaning service if that’s an option. There are just so many possibilities. So, after taking some time to dig in and discover what’s really rubbing for me, so often, I still do the thing. I clean the bathrooms. But my internal language is much different now, because I remembered how much choice and agency I have. It may not be the most fun I’ll have all day, but I remember why I want to do it and I’ve made the process more pleasurable, particularly the bits of the process that were rubbing me the wrong way. My internal language is lighter. Maybe even, “I want to clean the bathrooms today,” rather than that obligatory weight of, “I have to.” It’s so fascinating to see that we can find choice even in the most mundane bits and pieces of life. ANNA: And just how different it feels when we do. I mean, those choices all along the way. And I think the money piece that I talked about is a really interesting way to check in. So, do I want to pay somebody to do this? Does it have that value or is it not that big of a deal? Is my time more valuable there? It’s playing with it, asking questions that we talk so much about. It just opens up instead of getting stuck in the weight of the have to’s. So, yeah, I love that, because again, I just really think it helps us hone in on our priorities and get back to that why, like you said, and then we know, okay, I got these animals for a reason and I like having a clean bathroom and that’s why I’m doing it for me. Whatever those things are, getting back to that why. PAM: Yeah. And I love that priority piece. That was episode number one, because that is so foundational, playing around with our priorities and the time that we’ve got, the things that we want to do. We can always bring it back there to realize that we have choices with all the things that we think are on our plate. ANNA: Yes. And it just really changes things. But I do want to talk about times when it feels like there really is no choice, that life has happened to us. There’s a tragedy, a death, a loss of something that’s out of our control, because that’s going to happen to all of us. It’s certainly happened to me and realizing I still had the choice of how I react made all the difference in moving through those difficult events. No, I couldn’t change the fact that the job was lost or the injury happened, but I could decide how I was going to let that impact my mood, how I was feeling, and how I wanted to move through the world. So, for me, that helped me to put things into perspective and to feel again, that life wasn’t just happening to me. I’ve had some pretty difficult things happen to me over the years. We all have, but the times I’m able to ground back into who I want to be, how I want to learn from what’s happening around me, and how I want to find joy, even in the darkest moments, those were the times that I moved through the events with the most ease. It’s not easy necessarily, but with more ease than when I was fighting and bucking against the reality of what was happening. And, for me, gratitude was a big part of that. Finding those little spots of gratitude is a choice, and I found that I could find them even in the darkest of days. And with that choice, that first move towards looking for the tiny points of light, the shifts would start and new ways forward would present themselves. PAM: Yes, definitely. Things happen in our lives that are out of our control. Times where we find ourselves just reacting to things. It can feel like our life has come to a standstill with this big thing. And for a time, that can definitely be helpful, because it needs immediate attention, right? Yet moving through these challenging events often takes time and staying stuck in that emergency mode can have its consequences. So, for me, once the initial shock and overwhelm began to ease a bit, I found it helpful to gently remind myself to come back to the present whenever I noticed myself getting stuck in my head with my swirling thoughts. Because in the present, I slowly began to notice those bits and pieces of life that are happening around me. Those spots of gratitude, as you mentioned, Anna, even small ones, like how the light comes through the window, a moment of connection with my child that makes me smile. Continuing to bring myself to the present, soon I was open enough to start to see more possibilities, new ways forward that I couldn’t see when I was like stuck in tunnel vision. I began to see choices. ANNA: Yes. And that’s what it’s all about, finding our way to just seeing the choice in the moments. And so, this leads to another area where our choices influence our perspective. And it’s an area where we often give away our powers. And it’s, we tell our own stories. We’re the creators, we’re the writers, we’re the orators of these stories of our lives. And digging into stories is so important to us that we’re going to do an entire episode on it in a couple weeks, but I think it’s worth talking about it right now in this context of choice and seeing how it’s playing out in our days, because our stories have a way of defining us for ourselves and for others. For ourselves, they become this sort of self-talk. If that talk is negative and full of worry and distress, then we can become that. If that talk is positive and full of joy and gratitude, then we become that. We start to embody it. For others, it colors the way they see us. They trust that our story is our truth. And if that truth is steeped in frustration and anger, then we can attract the frustrated and angry, because it’s that whole misery loved company thing. And if that truth is infused with joy and gratitude, we tend to attract the people that are looking for joy and gratitude. And I’ve found that, for me, where I put my energy is the areas that I’m growing. And so, I just want to be really aware of that. And so, again, it just boils down to this choice. How do we want to spend our energy and what do we want to attract with it? PAM: Yeah. The stories we tell ourselves and those around us have such a big impact on us. So, I am really looking forward to diving into that idea more deeply in a couple of weeks. But it is also a great lens to consider when we’re thinking about choice, because if the story we’re telling ourselves and the people around us is that we don’t have a choice, that we have to do X, Y, Z, that’s most likely going to be the one we all run with. So often, we treat our stories as facts. “This is the situation. Now where do we go from here?” And that’s where people join us. So, if our story is grounded in frustration and full of have to’s, that’s where they join us, often sharing their frustrations and just generally tossing around in the muck with us. Back to that misery loves company. But if our story is steeped in choice and possibilities, that’s where they’ll jump in with us. Oh, that is a big change. Best of luck with that. Have you considered this? They’re just generally more supportive and helpful. And both stories can absolutely be true to the facts. But we get to choose which one we tell ourselves and others, which one feels better to us in the moment. And that is not a trick question. Sometimes what feels better is to vent, right? But it is absolutely helpful to remember that it’s a choice and we don’t need to stick to that version of our story forever. ANNA: Oh my gosh, yes. We can change a story when it stops serving us. That’s another big revelation. Like, “Oh, this story I’ve been hanging onto, I can change it up.” So, lots to consider there. So, we’re going to leave you with a few questions to ponder. First, do you find yourself saying, “I have to,” a lot? Really listen, because actually we don’t even always notice it. PAM: That’s so true. ANNA: Tune in. Can you find any patterns around when you see it happening more frequently? And kind of like you talked about, Pam, it tends to be those under-resourced moments, where we kind of start clicking off the have to’s and the giant list and all the things. How does it feel to think about having choices in each moment? PAM: So, I think that’ll be a big one. You don’t even have to like move forward with it, but just take a moment to think, “Oh, what if I had a choice?” If you can’t see a choice yet. But it could even just be how does it feel to think about, “Oh, what if there were choices?” And that I think can be the first little baby step. ANNA: I’m so curious how my friend’s husband’s going to think about some of this stuff, because he listens to the podcast. And so, what does it feel like to just think, but what if you did have a choice? What if you let go of that story that you don’t? So, another thing is, what helps you find your center when you’re moving through a challenge? I think that can just be really helpful, because we’re going to keep getting challenge. So, helping people understand what helps us move through that, what helps it feel a bit more with ease, what helps us find that gratitude, whatever it is that feels good. And lastly, what choices do you see around the stories you are currently telling about your life? Yeah, that’s going to be good. Because we’re always telling stories. If you’re sitting there listening, going, “I don’t know if I have stories,” no, you do. You have stories. And let’s look at them like, because these can be things we are carrying with us for a long time. And again, check back in a couple weeks when we really dig into stories as well. So, just thinking about this idea of choice, I think is just interesting. Play with it. How does it feel? What feels better? How does it work? So, yeah, I think it’s going to be fun. PAM: Yes, I think so, too. And that stories one, too. As you said, if you don’t think you’re telling stories, I think just take a pull back and instead of choices around the stories you’re telling yourself, think about, what stories am I telling myself? Just start to look through the lens of story and see how that feels. See what you see. I think it’ll be so interesting to dive into. ANNA: Thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time. Bye-bye. PAM: Bye.

In this episode, we’re sharing a conversation that Pam had with Iris Chen in 2018. At the time, Iris was new to unschooling her two sons in China and was writing blog posts about her experience at her website, Untigering. Pam and Iris talked about why she and her husband decided to move to China, her family’s move to unschooling, what unschooling in China looks like, deschooling expectations around achievement, feeling like an outsider in both Chinese and American societies, and lots more! We hope you enjoy the conversation! QUESTIONS FOR IRIS Can you share with us a bit about you and your family? I love how you describe your blog, untigering.com, on your about page: “Untigering is a blog about my adventures of trying to be parent in the tension of my Chineseness and Americanness. It’s about me moving away from being a typical tiger mom, but still wanting to hold on to my cultural heritage. It’s about figuring out what I believe about identity, family, and success as an outsider to both societies.” Let’s start with your shifting definition of success. You and your husband were well on your way to fulfilling the “American Dream” when you guys did a complete 180. How did that come about? And then you had children. How did you discover unschooling and what did your family’s move to unschooling look like? I’m really curious about unschooling in China. Can you share a bit about your experience and the pros and cons you see? You have a great blog post about the value of letting go of expectations, especially ones around achievement. When a child dives into an interest it’s so easy for us to start envisioning that as their lifelong passion and career, like we need to rationalize to ourselves that it’s okay to let them have at it. Maybe we try to convince ourselves we’re just being supportive, but it can quickly backfire, can’t it? I’d love to talk some more about your experience with the tension of feeling like an outsider in both Chinese and American societies. Can you share your thoughts around the process of weaving together your cultural heritage with what you’re discovering makes sense to you about children, learning, parenting, and family? What does that look like for you? You recently published a blog post titled, ‘Unschooling as an Asian American is an Act of Resistance.’ I thought it was a great piece and was hoping you’d share your thoughts about it here. What is your favourite thing about unschooling right now? Listen to our conversation on YouTube. THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us. Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more! Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships. TRANSCRIPT PAM: Welcome! I’m Pam Laricchia from livingjoyfully.ca, and today I’m here with Iris Chen. Hi Iris! IRIS: Hello Pam. PAM: Hello! Iris is an unschooling mom and I came across her work a few months ago. I really enjoyed reading around her website, untigering.com, and I was super excited when she agreed to come on the podcast! So, to get us started Iris … Can you share with us a little bit about you and your family? IRIS: Sure! So, I am a Chinese American, and I was born in the States and grew up in the States and Canada actually. After I got married, we moved out to China to teach English, and then we had two boys out there in China. And I’ve only been unschooling for about a year but have really just fallen in love with it. PAM: Oh, that’s awesome, yeah, and it’s doesn’t take too long once you start diving in, does it? If it’s for you, if it’s a good match, it just sucks you right in, right? IRIS: Yes, yes. PAM: So, I love how you describe your blog, untigering.com, in your about page and I just wanted to read a little quote from it. “Untigering is about my adventures of me trying to be an parent in the tension of my Chineseness and Americanness. It’s about me wanting to move away from being a tiger mom, but still wanting to hold on to my cultural heritage. It’s about figuring out what I believe about identity, family and success, as an outsider to both societies.” And look! I got goosebumps again just as I was reading it. Let’s start with your shifting definition of success. That’s a big one we talk about quite a bit here on the podcast, and as you mentioned, you and your husband were well on your way to fulfilling the “American Dream” when you did that complete 180 and moved to China. I’m really interested in hearing how that came about. IRIS: Yeah! So, we lived in the Silicon Valley. It’s a very driven, very ambitious culture here, and, at that time, my husband had been working for five years as an electrical engineer, and was doing well, and we were living a very comfortable, good life. But I think we just wanted something different; we wanted something meaningful. We wanted to be of service somewhere. And we wanted a sense of adventure too, something different. And so, we went to China just planning on teaching English for just a year—we didn’t expect on staying out for very long. We were going to give it a year and have a good time with it. But once we got out there, we just fell in love with it—fell in love with the people and the culture. I mean we are both Chinese, but yeah, just really falling in love with the people and the culture there. And ended up staying for the next 15 years and have been there ever since! PAM: Was the biggest piece when you were talking about wanting to feel like you were doing service kinds of work, helping people—that was something you felt was missing? Was that a big chunk of it? IRIS: Yeah. I think sometimes when you stay in your own culture, you are stuck in these scripts or these tracks that ‘everybody around you is doing this,’ ‘everybody else is buying their house and having children,’ or whatever. And I think we just wanted to be intentional about the choices we made—we didn’t want to just do what everybody else was doing. But we also wanted to make intentional choices about what we wanted to do with our lives. PAM: That’s cool! So, it was noticing that you on this track, I guess, the definition of success for people, right? And you guys were rocking that. IRIS: Yeah, yeah, we were doing well… PAM: And it became time to question it. Is that how? IRIS: Yeah, Definitely. And not to say that that is wrong, but are we being intentional and mindful about that choice. For us, we just felt like that wasn’t our path, that wasn’t our calling. We wanted something different for our lives. PAM: I love that point too, because, just because it’s conventional doesn’t mean that it’s wrong, right? Like, you said, just knowing which path is feeling good for you and is working for you, right? IRIS: Right, exactly! I feel that follows really closely with unschooling too. It’s not that you can’t have a conventional education, or you can’t go to college. It’s not about that. It’s about doing it intentionally and because it’s meaningful and purposeful for you. Don’t because it’s just with you do. PAM: I love that word, purposeful, because that shows the intention behind it, right? Because unschooling lives can run the gamut for young adults. And some, when you’re looking from the outside, can look very conventional, and some can look very unconventional, but they are all, either way, lived with intention and purpose. I love that. IRIS: Yes yes yes. PAM: I love that. So, you guys went, and you spent your year there, in China, and you had children. I’m curious to see how that phase went, and then how you discovered unschooling and what your move to unschooling looked like. You said that was about a year ago? IRIS: Yeah. I had this blog called untigering, because I think I was a typical tiger mom. Like, I had very high standards for what I wanted my kids to do and to study. It was my full intention to send them—well, at first we were considering conventional homeschooling, and then we were thinking about sending them to local, Chinese school, because we were living in China. We thought that if we send them to local school, they will be fluent; they will be bilingual in both Chinese and English, and that was sort of like a high priority for me, so we were really trying to get them into a local school. But that didn’t really work out because they didn’t have enough space for foreigners, so we went another option where we went to like a local, private Chinese school. And I think we had a good experience there, but after a few years there, I felt that there was a lot about the schooling mindset that I didn’t agree with—that didn’t resonate with me. Because I had sort of part-time homeschooled them when they were younger, I felt that there was just a lot of wasted time, a lot of busy work. A lot of it was meaningless, that you just felt like you had to do as part of school. And I was also teaching there at that school, and I was sucked into those types of patterns too, even though I didn’t believe in them, like giving homework just to give homework, or seeing what the results of grades like a mark did. They just cared about looking at the grade, they didn’t care about whether or not they understood the material. Or, even seeing my kids. They did really well in that environment, but then noticing that they were doing things more for the affirmation of the teacher; like, they were trying to get recognition and saying, “Look! Look at this!” And comparisons and stuff like that. So, I was noticing, even though they were doing well, attitudes that were inadvertently passed on to them because of this environment. I had not really been exposed to unschooling, but I listened to a parenting conference and one of the speakers was Scott Noelle who is part of the Alliance for Self-Directed Education, I think, and he wasn’t really talking about unschooling, but at the end of his talk, he referenced it. Then I went to the website and read what self-directed education was about. I just really resonated with it and felt like, “Oh, this is something that I really believe in; or I want to believe in.” It was a very radical way—at least for me—of looking at education and sort of letting go of the reins. But there was something very appealing for me, especially since, at the time, I had to think of other options, because the school that I was sending my kids to was shutting down. Pretty much my only option was to homeschool, and yet I was really stressed by that idea because I knew that if I took a schooling mindset and applied it to homeschooling, that would just create so much stress in my family life and for my kids because I’d just be this really controlling mom trying to get them to do their work. And I didn’t want to do that! And so, once I discovered unschooling, yeah, I think I just really resonated with it, and was excited about what that meant for my relationship with my kids and a way that we could homeschool that would just work for us. PAM: That’s cool! Yeah! You were mentioning that you were teaching at the school and you were doing all the things that were expected. You mentioned, giving homework, paying attention to grades, and using that as a measure etc. And it’s so interesting to see that, and you were doing it because you had to in that situation, and then imagining having to do that at home, because it wasn’t something that you really believed in. Is that kind of how it felt, like you would have to bring that home? IRIS: Yeah, definitely. And actually, in the school environment, I felt frustrated, because I was behaving in ways that I didn’t believe in either. Like, maybe I was just putting on that teacher hat and feeling like I had to be very authoritarian in some ways, like, “sit in your seat, pay attention, follow along,” you know… PAM: Yeah, you were playing that role rather than being yourself. IRIS: Yeah. Right. Like, interacting with them in the way that I would if they were just my kids or we were just home together. So, just the role of being a teacher and being in that role meant something to me, where I needed to be the one imparting information and they needed to absorb it or whatever, so… PAM: And I guess it might be a little bit easier trying to do that within the institution because all the teachers are doing it, whereas at home, ‘Oh now it will just be me trying to play that role.’ That could be a lot harder! IRIS: I don’t think my kids would like it, would respond well to it either, me always wearing the teacher hat. PAM: Yeah, that’s such a good point too. So, did the school close? Did you guys finish out they year there, and then the school closed, and then you kind of transitioned into it at home? IRIS: Yes. So, the school closed and we transitioned to what we were doing at home. A lot of the kids—it was a private, local school, and so all of the kids are pretty much local Chinese kids—they went back to their different situations, like, to a local school, or a private school, or to other options. But yeah, for us, we ended up homeschooling. PAM: Did you pretty much end up unschooling at home from the beginning? IRIS: At that point, yeah. It was sort of like we had our summer off and then we started. At the beginning, I was like, “There’s a few things that we are going to do,” so, I wasn’t in total “jump in the deep end.” We were still in the process of deschooling. So, I was like, “We still gotta do math.” You know, “We’re Asians, we do math!” At that point, I was not yet ready to let go of that and felt like that needed to be taught. And then we did other things like Chinese class and piano class, but other than that, I was really able to sort of let the rest of it go. I would read to them—sometimes I would pick a book or they would pick a book and I would read aloud to them. But the rest of the day was pretty open and they could do what they wanted to do. But I think after a few weeks into it, because of my changing views and my philosophy of unschooling, making them do math didn’t make sense to me anymore. Because, if I truly believe that kids can learn through life and learn naturally in ways that are meaningful for them, then why was I making them sit and fill out these worksheets that didn’t have meaning for them? And I also read, I think it was a Peter Gray article about learning math, and how kids in the future if they want to go into a field that requires math, that they can actually learn it really quickly, because they already have the skills to know how to learn. So, they don’t have to spend their entire childhood spending hours and hours doing workbooks and learning math, they can just go on and learn it really quickly if they want to. And so, I think hearing those things and wrestling with it a little more allowed me to let go of the math. So yeah, I no longer require them do math. That was part of my deschooling process. PAM: Oh absolutely. I think whatever “the thing” is for us—whether it’s math, or maybe it’s reading, or spelling. That was something that I held onto for a little while, just for the first couple of weeks. Because, whatever that one thing is, then we see them all the rest of the time, and see how much they are learning, and we see them in action. And we’re continuing to learn and read ourselves. So, I think that’s a pretty normal transition time, because there’s always that one last thing that it’s hard for us to let go of. But as we keep going just a few weeks, it starts to gel together and we can kind of release that last big thing, right? IRIS: Yeah. Absolutely. The other two things that I was holding onto was Chinese—Chinese language lessons—and piano. And we live in China, so it sort of made sense. And with piano, that is something that they had wanted to do when they were younger, but it’s been four years and we were still having them do it, and sometimes there was a lot of tension around piano practice and stuff like that. So, it wasn’t until more recently, maybe a couple of months ago, where we actually again had to question why we were continuing those activities and whether or not those activities were things that our kids wanted to do. So, we put them before them and asked, “Do you want to continue? These are the reasons that we think, from our perspective, but what do you guys think?” And it was interesting, because they didn’t really want to continue with the Chinese lessons, but they did want to continue with the piano. That was actually really affirming to us in a way, because we had thought that maybe if we didn’t force them to do it that they wouldn’t do either. But to know that once they had the option to consider for themselves and really tap into their own desires, that they realized that, “I do really want to continue with the piano.” So, now as we move forward, at least with the piano, they can continue with enjoyment, and not feeling like it’s not mom and dad making me do it, but that they are in control. PAM: That’s a really great point. It is so interesting to see them, executing their agency, I guess, in making choices. And it’s nice to know that you get to that point in the relationship—it might have been a few months till you guys felt like you could ask that question and get a real answer from them; because at first, it could be very reactionary. Like you said, we figured at first it could be like “No I don’t want to do anything because you were making me do that.” But to actually take the time to think about it and to make a choice for what really works for them, right? IRIS: Right, that’s a really good point. I think sometimes they might react because we have been so controlling and we’ve robbed them of that agency for so long, so, once they have agency they’re like, “Ok, well, I’m just going to rebel, or I’m just going to do my own thing and not do what I know you want me to do.” But yeah, I think that can be a process too, allowing them to do that until they get to the point where there is that trust and they are like, “Oh, mom and dad honor my choices, and maybe some of what I want to do is what mom and dad want me to do, and that’s okay.” PAM: Yeah, that’s such a huge process—I call it deschooling for us—but also for the kids too because it’s building that relationship and that trust back in, right? Because if they say no to everything that’s ok too. And when you ask, it’s about being ok with the no. And none of these noes are forever. They can always, like you said, later on, say, “Hey, you know what, I think maybe I do want to pick that back up.” But now they’ve gotten to a point in the relationship that they know they are making that choice for themselves, not to please you, and you know that too. IRIS: So, that was something that both my husband and I had to be ok with, it like, “Ok, if they say no to both of these things, we have to be ok with this, rather than trying to manipulate them to choose something.” Being ok with the no. I think with unschooling we are always hoping that they will say yes to something, that they will grab onto something that they really love, but I think that for kids who haven’t been given a lot of freedom, I think the first choice is to say no, and they have to have the freedom to do that. PAM: That finally helps them to feel powerful when they haven’t felt like they’ve had a lot of power. I’m really curious to learn more about unschooling in China. I was hoping you could share a bit about your experience and kind of like the pros and cons that you see about unschooling there. IRIS: Yeah, I actually wrote a blog post about this, and I would be interested to know if there are any other unschoolers in China. I have no idea. But I think one of the really challenging things is the easy access to information because we have a firewall. It’s really hard to get information online, and I feel like probably for a lot of unschoolers, a lot of the information they get is online. So, that is sometimes really challenging for us. We can’t get on YouTube or Twitter or Instagram or Facebook without a VPN—a virtual private network. Sometimes the Internet makes it hard to get all those things. I think that is a challenge. I think another thing is just the cultural values is just very high on academics. It’s definitely the whole society is very focused on children doing well in school—getting the good grades, doing well on the tests. We are in an environment that really pushes those types of values. So, we’re pretty weird to them. So that’s also, I guess, another challenge. And I think there’s also the lack of affordable resources. Whereas here I feel like there’s the library, the community center, there’s the free days at the museum, there’s nature, there’s a lot to work with, and there’s also a community—a pretty strong unschooling or homeschooling community. I think in China there aren’t a lot of free resources, because most families only have one child and they are willing to pay a lot of money for their child to do cool stuff. And so, a lot of things cost a lot of money, so in that way there aren’t a lot of affordable resources, in my opinion. We do have a homeschooling community, which I’m very, very thankful for, but not necessarily unschooling, so not very many people with the same perspective on schooling. So those are some of the cons, but those can also be pros too, in my mind. Just the fact that because they culture emphasizes so strongly on academics, people actually see the detrimental parts of that. They see how the system is really broken and they don’t want that for their kids, but their choices are limited and it’s pretty risky for them to try other things. So, in some ways they see a more extreme example of the negative things we see in schooling in the west. They know something needs to change, or something isn’t right here. They can understand the value of more choice, more freedom, more agency. Like, when I tell my friends about it, it’s something that sounds really amazing, but it’s too outside of the box for them at this point. And I think also the bicultural aspect of living oversees is something that’s built-in for us. This sense of learning from another culture, learning a different language, eating different types of foods. Sort of like the worldschooling thing, right? We are learning from life and our perspective isn’t just based on our own experience or our own culture—you’re exposed to different people and different cultures. So that’s a big one too. PAM: That’s really interesting. Especially the part that academics are such a big focus, and there’s so much pressure on the kids, they really see the negative effects. And yes, I can see that yeah, it’s totally too out of the box to step away from it, but I can imagine them wanting to figure out ways to support their kids, while still putting the pressure on? You know what I mean? It seems it’s quite a dichotomy, but I can see how, “This is what we have to do, this kind of pressure, but I’m going to help you to live with it, because this is just the way it has to be,” right? IRIS: Yeah, there’s definitely that attitude, it’s like, “Well, this is the way it is. How can I help and support you? And I know it’s really stressful and unfair, but this is the way it is.” So, I feel that I recognize that I have a lot of privilege in this in terms of the choices that I have as a foreigner living in America, and, even if I was in America, I’m very thankful for the privilege to not have to send my kids to school. So, I really try to not try to push unschooling upon my Chinese friends, because I know that that’s an unfair standard for them, I guess. All I know is that I believe in it, and I’m going for it, and I will support you in whatever choices that you make because I know that you are doing what’s best for your child too. PAM: Exactly, because everybody’s choices to make right? And they see you living it. You don’t have to convince them or change their minds or anything. Just by seeing you living it they know it’s an option. I can’t imagine trying to put pressure on that or trying to convince them. That won’t help at all, will it? IRISI: I have talked to some local moms who have chosen alternative ways of doing education and I’m so proud of them. I mean, it’s a really big risk and a really big jump for them. So, I do want to support them as much as I can and to help them to think about education in a different way so that it’s not so scary for them, because it is really scary for them to make choices like that. PAM: And I mean, that’s the thing about living out in the world as you do—people know you’re there when they have questions or are even just curious. Not even that they are planning a move in the near future, but just curious to learn a little bit more and ask questions. That’s awesome that you’re speaking with them and sharing your experience. That’s awesome. And so, how often do you guys visit in the States then? IRIS: We come back every summer. I’m not sure how my kids feel. I mean, we grew up in the States, so we are very comfortable in both cultures. I wonder how my kids feel about it? But they love visiting the States and seeing family and everything. We come back every summer for about two months. PAM: That’s awesome. I will definitely share a link to that blog post. You also have a great blog post about letting go of expectations especially around achievement—as we’ve been talking about already—but when a child dives into an interest, it’s so easy for us to envision this as “Oh, ok, piano! This is their life-long passion and they can make a career out of it!” And I feel like we almost rationalize to ourselves that it’s ok to let them have at it because, ‘This could be their big career, this could be what they do forever.’ And maybe we realize that that could be pushing a little bit too much, and we try to convince ourselves that we are just supporting him. But that can quickly backfire, can’t it? IRIS: Yes. I think sometimes that our version of support is actually in the guise of support, but we are actually coming in with our own exceptions, like “Oh, they are going to be amazing at this!” Or, “They are going to go to the Olympics!” Or, “They are going to win an amazing prize!” But we’re actually coming in with our own expectations, and in a lot of ways it’s still about achievement and outside affirmation rather than about the joy and the process of learning something new. So, maybe part of the appeal of unschooling for me in the beginning was like, ‘Oh, these kids are doing amazing things and they are following their passions, but I think I just read this headline by Idzie Desmarais who writes “I’m Unschooled…” What does she write? PAM: I’m Unschooled. Yes, I Can Write. IRIS: Yes, I can write. Yes! And it’s like, sometimes our kids are unexceptional, and why do we have this pressure that we put on our kids to be exceptional and to be a genius at a young age? I mean, some are, and that’s great, but how just to accept our kids where they’re at and just to be fellow sojourners with them in the process of their learning. I think something that I’m not actually good at right now is actually empowering them and giving them the resources. Sometimes I’m just like, “Oh, just use the free app and see how much you get out of it.” But I don’t know if that’s bad either, because if they really are into it, then they will let me know, and then I will hopefully get them the resources. Maybe in the meantime they can just dabble and that’s ok too. PAM: Yeah, I think that’s a great point, and I kinda think of it as a dance. I often call it the dance of parenting, because it’s like, you don’t want to overpower them with stuff, and step on their toes and kind of take over like you’re directing, like you’re leading—like in dance terms. But you also want to react to their lead, right? As long as you are reasonably comfortable that in the relationship, if they want more, they’ll say something. And for us, that’s part of making sure we’re connected, staying connected. Asking them, “How’s that free app going? Did you finish all the stuff that was available there? Did you want a little bit more?” Not always expecting them to come to you. So, again, it’s the dance, right? You don’t expect them to come, but you don’t want to push too hard, so that they feel like you’re controlling or like you’ve got some kind of expectation hiding in there. So yeah, it’s just the push and pull, back and forth. It’s living together. IRIS: So, I think that’s something that I really had to learn to step back and hold my tongue and really not try to strew too hard. Like, we go to the library and there’s all these books that I think they might be interested in, and I like ask them, “Do you want to read this?” And they slip through and they are like, “Nope.” And I have to be ok with that! Maybe in the past I would have been like, “Well, I’m going to borrow it anyways and read it to you.” And I’m just backing off and saying. “It’s ok, you’re reading a lot of other stuff.” My boys are really into coding and gaming and stuff, and so, we are back in the States and I know some people at gaming companies, people who are coders and stuff like that. And so, I asked them, do you want me to ask if you can visit this gaming company or whatever. And I thought this would be really fun for them and they are like, “Ehhhh.” So, there are ways that I’m trying to open doors for them and help them improve or whatever, but they are just not there yet, and so I have to be ok with that. PAM: I love that example because I had that so many times over the years. Because, they are at a place, and you can kind of see next steps, a few steps down, but I came to realize that that’s a few steps down the path that I envision, right? So, we are all surprised when I say, ‘I have this way to contact this person, that’s a few steps down. Would you like to go hang out with them, meet them,’ whatever, and they are like, ‘no thanks.’ Because we have no idea what path is their’s, and even if they’re ready to take a next step—maybe they are completely comfortable where they are. It’s a lot of our work, isn’t it? Thinking that through, figuring that out, realizing that not all of these plans, all these possibilities that we are envisioning for them around the spot that they are in, may be completely different from what they are, right? IRIS: And my kids are like eight and ten. So, I have to realize that they are still young and there’s no need to box them in yet. See, the tiger mom in me. See, I still need to do that, to untiger. PAM: Well yeah, because they have this time, if they have the interest, they could be rocking it a few years from now, right? But but but… IRIS: Exactly. I realize a lot of it is about my own aspirations, my own projections for them, so I need to let that go… PAM: Because it’s our envisioning their achievement at a young age. So again, it’s our thinking, our conventional definition of success. And it can sneak up on us in so many different ways, can’t it? IRIS: Yep yep. PAM: Um, let’s see. Yes! I have been looking forward to this question, about your experience with the tension of feeling like an outsider in both Chinese and American societies. I was wondering if you’d share your thoughts about weaving together your cultural heritage with what you’re discovering now makes sense with what you’re learning now about children and learning and parenting and family. I was just hoping to know what that kind of looks like for you now? How do you weave that together? IRIS: Sure. Yeah, It’s a really big question, and I’m still in process. I just went to watch this play last night called Soft Power, and it’s like a, they call it a Chinese musical about America, so it’s written by an Asian American, but it’s sort of like a Chinese view of what America is like. And there are some scenes in it where, it’s like, as an Asian American in America, I’m never American enough, I’m not western enough, I’m not white enough. And in China, I’m not Chinese enough—like, my Chinese isn’t good enough, my ways of communicating aren’t Chinese enough. And so, in both culture, we are outsiders, or there’s feelings of not being enough, not belonging or whatever. But I think there is also value in that, in that we can sort of step back and be observers of both cultures, so that we can sort of critique both cultures but also celebrate both cultures so that I don’t have to feel defensive about America. If there’s like something about America that’s gone terribly wrong, I don’t have to say, “Oh, I’m an American. I need to defend it.” or I don’t need to be patriotic or defend it. And same with Chinese culture. If something says something bad about Chinese culture, I can also accept it or deconstruct it or whatever because I’m a little bit of an outsider. And so, I’m finding that being in this position as an Asian American, I can be a lot more intentional about the things from different cultures that I am incorporating into my family life and into my parenting, so, it doesn’t have to be fully western, or and it doesn’t have to be fully Chinese. Like, nowadays we are more of a global society, and I think if we had the humility to learn from each other, that there are ways that we can learn from different cultures. I’m just reading all these articles about the Mayan culture in Mexico, and how their children are very different from American children, and how can we learn from that culture, and just how the blessing of being bicultural is that we can be a lot more intentional about the things that we take from each culture. For example, Chinese culture, the values that we have, the focus on family is very strong, and respect and responsibility and just working hard, and these are things that I associate with Chinese culture. And those are good values, I believe in those values, but I think the how—the way we get to that—is also important, and so maybe the how is a more western approach, because the Chinese way of getting to these values is often through patriarchy, through authoritarianism, through shame. Those are maybe the ways that sort of get embedded into the culture in a lot of ways, and now that I can see that that’s not how I want to get to those values, I can find other ways to get to those values that are more respectful and provide more agency and freedom. Those are still values that I want to honor and instill in my family, but it’s just a matter of how we get there. PAM: Yeah, I loved that. I loved the realization that you can still get to the same place, but a different way, with a different path. It’s not, ‘If you don’t use these authoritarian shame control tools, you’ll never get there.’ Like, that’s the message that they use to continue parenting and just structuring society these ways. But to realize that you can still get there but in different way, that’s eye opening, right? IRIS: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think—and I’m just speaking for myself as an Asian American—we don’t have a lot of models or examples that we have seen of a family dynamic that operates like that. I think that, at least for me, I’m feeling my way through. Like, we have the typical white, western family, but in my experience, Asian families, the way we interact, the dynamics are a little bit different. Just feeling our way through so that we can uphold our Asian values and the things that we love about our Asian culture, while doing it in a respectful and honoring way. That seems very un-Asian in some ways. PAM: I’m really curious. You were talking about being bicultural and the advantage in that you could choose what resonated with you from both cultures. So, it became more about, you’re already open to choices, it sounds like, right? Did that kind of help when you discovered unschooling, which is focused on choices? Did that help a bit that you were already picking and choosing things that were working for you, that this was just kind of another thing that you were going to pick? IRIS: I think so! I think that living overseas made our lifestyle, very intentional. Because we didn’t totally fit into that culture, and we weren’t going to just bring American culture over there either, right? So, it was definitely we made very intentional choices about how we were going to live, and the aspects of American culture that we wanted to bring over that were important to us, but ways that we wanted to incorporate the culture around us too. And so I think that did give us the freedom to be more intentional and purposeful—those words keep coming up!—about the choices we made with schooling. So, maybe if we had lived here in the States we wouldn’t have had to question it was much, because that’s just the way everyone does it, but because we had to be really intentional about that as we lived overseas. In some ways it opens the doors for us for a lot more options in some ways, because we aren’t stuck in a certain track. PAM: I can’t remember, I’m going to butcher the quote completely, but you know “once your mind opens to a new idea, right? Or grows from a new idea, it can never go back.” Like, once you see one choice and you make a little bit different choice, all of a sudden you see more of them everywhere. IRIS: Yeah. PAM: Well, that’s beautiful. You recently published a blog post titled, ‘Unschooling as an Asian American is an Act of Resistance.’ I thought it was a great piece, Iris, and I was hoping you’d share your thoughts about it here. IRIS: That blog post was about how, as a Chinese American specifically, it adds a different layer to my decision to unschool, and I think that’s true for a lot of people of color. It’s not solely about educational choice, that there is a component of resisting racism in it. So, part of it for me was about resisting. There are three thing I was resisting, and the first one was resisting cultural pressures, and I talked about this already a little bit, about Chinese culture in particular emphasizes a lot on academics, like, the test-based system pretty much originated in China. So, really rejecting that view of what education looks like, so from the Asian side, resisting those cultural pressures of having high academics or going to an Ivy League school or having a certain type of career. So, I’m resisting those pressures on that side, which as a culture and maybe my extended family, they are like “What are you doing? That’s very strange what you’re doing!” And I think also as a second generation immigrant, where a lot of our families have moved to the west to provide more opportunities, to provide these educational opportunities, and then if you don’t take them, they feel like, “Why? What did we sacrifice all that for?” So, there’s a lot of pressure on that side of it. I think there is also the resistance of Asian stereotypes. Where maybe there’s views of like the stereotypical Asian nerd, or you see Jeremy Lin, who’s a Chinese American basketball player. He has faced a lot of racism because people just don’t see him as athletic. People just don’t see Asians as athletic, or attractive, or as outspoken, or as a leader. So, there are these ways that society stereotypes Asians as not having these opportunities, especially in a schooling environment. So, there’s ways that we can achieve. Like, if we were on the academic route and we’re smart and that follows the stereotype so people can accept that, but if you don’t want to follow that stereotype, like if you aren’t super academic but you really enjoy dance, or you want to be a football player or whatever it is, there are stereotypes that prevent you from achieving those things in that environment. I feel that unschooling is a way outside of that. That we can provide different opportunities that hopefully can resist some of those stereotypes and not have kids boxed into being a certain type of Asian. So, there’s that. And then I think the last one was the curriculum, and the very white-centric, very patriotic, American, information that is given in most western schooling environments is very western-centric. And I think that we are realizing more and more that the story we are telling each other isn’t the whole truth, and that there are many different perspectives out there on the history. So, not only stories about our country or about the world that are very euro-centric, but pretty much all of curriculum is. Or even sports—most schools don’t necessarily have Asian sports like badminton, but they will have basketball or golf, things that are more associated with western things. Or the music that is played in band, or just a lot of different things that are just typical, white-centric instead of a more global, multicultural, view of the world. And so, unschooling can allow us to expose them to whatever resonates with them, and it doesn’t have to be just that one canon that we are used to. PAM: Yeah, that’s so narrow, isn’t it? The curriculum, just in general. And yeah, you don’t really realize it because, if you’re on that path, you just absorb it because that is what we are supposed to do. Somebody has said, “This is what we cover,” and somebody has said “This is the angle of the story that we are going to cover.” I loved the idea of it’s also being a resistance to all that—conventional isn’t even the right word, stereotypical probably is, for lack of a better word—white culture that’s there, and all of the other stories are ignored. And I love that idea of it also being a big act of resistance of that main cultural story. That the world is so much bigger, so much wider. And that we can bring that world to the kids. But also, just standing up and choosing that it’s important to us. It’s our choice too for our families. That this is an important way that we want to be in the world and that we want to share with our children. Does that makes sense? IRIS: Yeah, definitely. And where they can be sort of the protagonist of their own stories, whereas like, if we grow up in the typical American schooling system, we are never the protagonist of our own story system, we are never the protagonist in our own stories. The stories that we read, there are very few, there are more and more, but very few books that are required reading at that age, that tell stories about Asian Americans or Asians. PAM: I love that point too, and I’ll share a link to that too. I really wanted to know what your favorite thing about unschooling is right now? IRIS: There are so many things, but I really think it’s not so much just about schooling, but it’s really a whole lifestyle sometimes, so I just really love how it gives me so many opportunities to connect with my children, and just the relationship that we have with one another and the growing respect we have for one another. And just enjoying each other. Whereas, it’s not about herding my kids through the day, getting them to one class or that class, it’s really about just enjoying life together. It’s a really slow pace that allows us the opportunity to just connect and enjoy one another. So, I’m really thankful for that. PAM: Oh, I love that. And you don’t realize how fast that pace is until you step away, do you think? I found that I appreciated that slowness and that ability to be in relationship and be in the moment with them way more than I even expected. IRIS: Yeah, yeah, and I think that’s sort of my personality too, I’m more of a homebody I like things to be slower. I get overwhelmed with too many things. But, yeah, just really enjoying that opportunity to build relationship with them. PAM: That’s awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me Iris. I’m so glad you said yes. I had so much fun! IRIS: I had a lot of fun too. Thank you for asking me Pam. PAM: Before we go, where is the best place for people to connect with you online? IRIS: My blog is untigering.com and I also have a facebook page that’s Untigering. I also started a facebook group for parents who are or have been tiger parents, and that’s called Untigering Parents, and then on twitter I am @untigeringmom. PAM: Excellent. I will put all those links in the show notes for people too. And thanks so much. Have a great day. Say hi to everyone. You guys are in the States now, right? IRIS: Yes, we are. PAM: Yay. Thank you! Bye! IRIS: Ok, bye!

On this episode of Exploring Unschooling, Pam, Anna, and Erika talk about when school isn’t working. In the northern hemisphere, many children are going “back to school” and so, we wanted to share some thoughts about what can happen when school just isn’t working for your child. In our conversation, we talked about changes you might notice in your child, about the choices that we have when it comes to living and learning, and about the value of community during that big transition away from mainstream schooling. We hope you find our conversation helpful on your unschooling journey and in your relationships! Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube. THINGS WE MENTION IN THIS EPISODE We invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network, a warm and welcoming online community of like-hearted parents. It’s a non-judgmental space where you can steep in these unconventional ideas around parenting, relationships, and learning, and explore what they might look like day-to-day in your uniquely wonderful family. We offer a free month trial so you can see if it’s a good fit for you. Click here to join us. Sign up to our mailing list on Substack to receive our email newsletters as well as new articles about learning, parenting, and so much more! Check out our website, livingjoyfully.ca for more information about exploring unschooling and navigating relationships. EPISODE TRANSCRIPT PAM: Hello everyone! I’m Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully, and I’m joined by my co-hosts today, Anna Brown and Erika Ellis. In this episode, we’re going to be talking about what you might do when school isn’t working for your child. But before we dive in, I’d just like to take a moment to invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network. There is just so much value in walking alongside others on this journey, particularly any kind of unconventional journey like when school isn’t working for our child, because while everyone’s journey is unique, many of us face similar obstacles and challenges. And that is where the power of community shines in feeling seen and heard by others. In the Network, you can learn from the experiences of other parents on similar journeys, draw inspiration from their a-ha moments, and gain insights from the unique and creative ways they navigate both their own and their family’s needs. To learn more, just follow the link in the show notes. And Anna, would you like to get us started? ANNA: I would. Oh goodness. This topic has been coming up a lot over the last few months, really this year, and we just thought it was important to create a space to talk about it. I’m excited about today, because the truth is school doesn’t work for everyone. Instead of the message that people tend to hear, which is, “There’s something wrong with your child. Let’s do X, Y, or Z to fix your child,” we wanted to say, it’s okay. It’s okay if a particular environment doesn’t work for your child. Parents will tie themselves up in knots trying to make it work and make themselves sick thinking that there’s something wrong with their child or that they’ve done something wrong as a parent, when again, it really just is an environment that doesn’t work for everyone. And when we think about how people are different, which if you’ve been here any amount of time, you know we talk about a lot, it can help so much in this situation. Because we just are so different. Our brains process information differently. We prioritize things differently. We have different sensitivities and capacities and all of it is just fine. The journey is in learning more about ourselves and what we need to thrive. And often that just can’t happen in a one size fits all environment. And honestly, how could one size fit all? We’re so different. It’s amazing that it works as much as it does, and we know there are a lot of issues along the way, even for those where it “works”. I feel like when we think about people and how we work, some people need to move to think, pacing around helps them really solidify an idea. Others like music to help calm a busy mind and that focuses them on the task at hand. Some people like to deep dive into a subject and are not coming up for air for weeks to understand all of the nuances. Others like to flit around and find patterns. They’re pulling from different arenas, to get this bigger web of learning and picture for themselves. None of those types are served in a school environment where it’s, “Sit still. Be quiet. Do this now.” Bell rings, “Do something completely different now.” That’s the way they play the game there. And it doesn’t work for a lot of brains.  And as soon as we turn a discerning eye to it, we can see why they need to do it that way. It often boils down to crowd management. And this is not about teachers. Teachers are incredible.They’re devoting their lives to creating a wonderful environment, but it just can’t meet the needs of all children. I mean, it just can’t. So, we see then that it’s not about something being wrong with our child, but it’s more about what our particular child needs to thrive and learn. And it just might not be able to happen in a traditional school environment. The good news is there are options. Whether it’s an alternative school that maybe can address particular needs of a child or homeschooling or unschooling, there are so many different ways to find what works. Because we’re learning creatures. In a safe, affirming environment, we have almost an unlimited capacity to learn. Here, we talk a lot about unschooling, because it is what worked for our families. And I do believe it provides a great environment for us to learn more about ourselves and what we need to thrive. Then with that knowledge, we can take that into all sorts of environments and find our own unique path. I feel passionate about this particular thing because we’ve met so many parents along the way on the Network and in other realms and they are feeling so terrible. And I just want them to know that there’s nothing wrong with a child that doesn’t fit in traditional school. Seeing children shine for being exactly who they are is a beautiful gift that changes that child. And honestly, it changes us, too. And I’m going to even say it changes the world. So, I’m pretty passionate about this.  ERIKA: I think it does change the world. I don’t even think that’s an exaggeration. This is such a beautiful topic. I would love to pass along the message that there is nothing wrong with you. There’s nothing wrong with your family. There’s nothing wrong with your child if you’re finding that school is not a fit. It just makes sense. People are so different. It makes sense that the one-size-fits-all model is not going to work. At the beginning of my unschooling journey, and I think for a lot of people, there are these huge paradigm shifts. When you’re first starting to just even consider, “Should I, or can I, opt out of this system?” I remember reading John Holt and reading John Taylor Gatto and really, Gatto in particular is very vehement in his arguments against school. And as someone who went to a lot of school and did very well, I feel like reading those kinds of alternative voices did help me a lot in those beginning days. They helped me to wrap my head around this huge paradigm shift, realizing I didn’t really think about all of those negative pieces when I was just doing what I was told to do and achieving in that system. My children are what sparked me to do that investigation and dive into those topics. But it did help me to listen to this podcast, to read Pam’s books, and all of these other voices giving me alternatives to what I had always heard my entire life growing up. And so, I don’t know if scary is quite the right word, but it was a really big moment in my brain.  I felt like school worked for me. I thought it was going to work for my kids. Now that I’m looking at it, maybe it didn’t work as well for me as I thought it did. I can now see new possibilities for my children and especially when I’m looking at kids who are neurodiverse, who have very particular interests and strong interests. I was just picturing that kind of bustling, busy, loud school environment and just not seeing how that could work well for my sensitive first child. And the journey began there. But it is fun to know how many options there are. And to me, the way that I view unschooling is it’s like we have every option now. If they do want to go back to school, that’s okay too. Because it’s all about learning, learning more about ourselves, learning more about our kids, and then making choices that feel good and feel empowering to us and being able to shift when things aren’t working. So, yeah, I love it. PAM: Yes. Love it. Love it. And I think that is a place that we get to too in that, at first, I didn’t even know it was a choice. So, for me, that was one of the reasons when, way back when, when I started writing and sharing a little bit more online.  It was just so people knew it was a choice. That was an a-ha moment. Mind blown. Like, oh, they don’t have to go to school. This was, I was just doing the calculations, 23 years ago. 23 years ago. It is so interesting when you can recognize, oh, it is a choice. It doesn’t have to be that way. And then you can get to that place of learning, like you said, Erika, that these other choices are valid too, that it’s not a failure. I didn’t fail because this environment doesn’t fit for my kids. And a lot of the messaging still is around fixing the kids and getting the kids ready so that they are ready to fit into this environment, et cetera. But yes, there are more and more voices now and it’s much more well known that these are options and these don’t work for everyone, each one doesn’t work for everybody. And then, if the kids do come home or you just choose not to go, and like you said, Erika, it is totally cool too if they at some point decide they want to try it. At that point, it’s not about school or not school, it’s about what works for this child? What would this child like to do? What things do they want to try? I like to think of learning as a big buffet table and school is a plate on the table, that is a choice you can make. But before I learned about this, before my mind was blown, it was the only plate on the table. That’s all I knew, right? But now there are so many plates. There is truly a buffet there, and you’re less tied to a particular choice and it’s more about helping each person, us included, because we don’t stop learning just because we’re adults, right? Seeing what choice we want to make in this moment and trying it out and knowing we still have a choice. We can try something and we’re not getting out of it what we thought we were going to get out of it, or we did for a while and now it’s no longer working. That’s totally okay. We can change our mind or we can say that’s enough of that dish. It comes back to our choices.  And I came to that understanding and realization for my kids through learning that school was a choice, and coming to the point to see that when school’s not working, it’s not about blaming the child and needing to fix the child. This environment, like you said, Anna, is set up this way because it’s efficient. Teachers are doing their best with the environment as it is and stretching it. When my kids went to school, we had teachers that worked with us, but still there’s only so much they can do.  There’s the constrained environment of, these are the hours, these are how many kids are in a class. All those pieces. So, it really was, for me, just getting through that initial tendency to blame or to feel like it was a failure to move away from it and to recognize that buffet table that’s really there and that those choices all have value, more or less, just depending on the person who’s at the table trying to decide what they want to partake of in this moment. ANNA: I love that, because I feel like it’s an empowering place, to realize that it’s a choice and we get to choose. Because I think environments that are big systems like that, I think of medical systems, but also the school system, they drive off of a sense of urgency. And so it’s very much like, “You have to do it this way.” There’s one way and you’ve got to do it and you’ve got to do it now, or there are going to be dire consequences. So, there’s a lot of language that is directed at parents that feels very intense and scary. “If you don’t do this, it’ll never happen.”  And that’s what’s so valuable about the Network, but also these podcasts, but other environments as well. But in the Network, you see all of these children who have learned to read and who are pursuing their passions and who are doing all these different things that did not follow that one very narrow course that school lays out. And so, it can help you build confidence. And that’s looking more externally.  Because I would also say, just look at your child, because look at what kids learn without any help at all. Maybe not any help but facilitation, but learning to walk, learning to talk, all the things that happen before school even comes into the picture. Just ground into, okay, I have this unique child in front of me. Look at how much they love this thing.  And especially, and I love that you mentioned neurodiversity because, if you have a child that’s deep diving into this passion about dinosaurs or trains or something that they love, you see the learning that’s happening. It just doesn’t happen to be fitting into what they need at school. It’s not across these multiple things. But what we talk about in the network and what you know, being around other people that are living this lifestyle can help you see the web of learning that’s coming out from those individual interests. The web of learning that child is creating as they understand where the trains go and how the trains are built, and who’s running the trains and all the things. That is actually what learning is. So yes, in a school environment, they need to make it. What’s the word? Conform? They need to make a system that they can plug people into, but we have the ability in our individual families to create the environment where we each can thrive. And I think even if you just take a minute to think about just the people in your immediate family. Look at the differences there. I think that, again, will help you see it. Because I can think about my husband who is a very tactile, experiential learner, and he’s brilliant, but it’s different from me. I like to read, I like to take in information that way. I’m not really an auditory learner. And then I look at this daughter and she learns this way and this daughter, and I realize there are so many ways that we can learn and move through the world. I think as soon as you recognize that choice, like you said, Pam, it just opens up everything. ERIKA: I love that you mentioned that, individualized versus standardized. And I think even in school, they want it to be individualized. If it could be, that would be the dream, but it’s just not feasible. There are too many kids, not enough teachers. You just can’t make everything individualized for every kid. And so, by doing it on our own and just following our children’s interests, we’re able to make their lives a perfectly individualized instruction plan, if you wanted to call it that.  That looks nothing like school, but is allowing them to dive so deep into the things that are interesting to them. And I know on the podcast in the past we’ve talked about learning and school learning and natural learning. In school they’re really pulling the skills out away from, from the context. That’s something that is hard for many children. If growing up it felt like math is so hard and doesn’t make sense, it’s probably because in school it’s completely divorced from any reason to do it, any kind of context at all. And so what’s great about taking the learning out of school is that then context is everything. If, if there’s a reason to learn something, then they learn it. There’s a reason to read, which there is in every field. There’s a reason to want to read. And so, then they want to read and they learn how to read. I’ve seen that happen over and over again with other children that I know as well. And just the feeling that I have from watching my children get to these big learning moments in their own way. In a way that they have ownership of that. It’s just so amazing and beautiful that my kids feel like they have done it on their own.  I don’t think they would say they taught themselves to read because the word taught doesn’t really even make sense. But it’s they did that themselves. They know how to read because they figured out how to read. And of course I have played a big role in it, but that’s not what they remember. They remember that they figured it out. It made sense to them. And so, when you’re coming out of the school environment or starting to question school, it might be those things like, but what about math? And what about the reading? And I don’t know, my child isn’t meeting these benchmarks and how are they going to do it? It really is just a complete paradigm shift to realize there’s plenty of time and people don’t need to learn things on the same timetable. Following our interests is a path towards learning these underlying skills that will be necessary, for anything that you want to do in life. And learning them with that context makes it so much easier to learn. PAM: Yeah, I love that piece because I think when we can recognize that school isn’t working for our child and even look for alternative ways, choose homeschooling, choose unschooling, etc., but so much of that journey away is our work to do our paradigm shifts because. School can often be so ingrained for us. So even if we take our kid out, we can be looking for learning that looks like school learning. We can be looking for progress that looks like school progress because learning in school feels so linear. So step by step by step and learning in action really doesn’t look that way. It can look like soaking up like a whole bunch and then looking stagnant for a while as it percolates, processes in the background and builds our web of understanding, our connections, that context. Or something’s hard right now, it’s just not clicking right now. And then maybe just moving on to something else. And then we are finding the next step is this, and the next step is this and you’ll see them get there, but it will look so different. It can come from somewhere different and then just zoom up. It can be months and months and months, and then all of a sudden, a whole bunch happens, big leaps. So, it really doesn’t look like school learning. Marks go up and down and people have good, easy seasons and harder seasons at school. It’s not so much that it fits with everybody, but it is the way it needs to be presented because we have so many days and we have so many topics that we have to cover. So, it gets chunked out that way, very linearly. And we have a big group of kids, so math does look like a worksheet. It doesn’t look like how we use numbers out in the world because we don’t have a lot of time to create those situations. But we can create worksheets where you can practice those skills.  So it is that shift for us. Not only choosing not to send our kids to school. But also then it comes to understanding that the way we thought learning looked, the way it looks in school, the way it’s marked, graded in school, etc. It looks really different when we take out the school environment or take the child out of the school environment. We need to also take all the school think and school lenses that we’re using and, and find new ones.  Because when we look to our child and we engage with our child and we watch them in action, we see this learning in action. And it’s not that it’s not happening, it just looks very different. I remember like people fresh from bringing their kids home and they’re like, they’re not learning anything. Yes, I know it doesn’t look like they’re learning anything, but that’s because you’ve got your school glasses on and you’re only looking for learning that looks like learning does in school. But actually, if you try to take those off and look at what they are doing. You can see it.  It just doesn’t happen to look that way, the way school tells us it will look. It’s so fun. ANNA: I think looking at ourselves, I loved that you said that Erika, you even took the lens looking back at your own journey because you were super successful in school. Most people from the outside would say it worked for you, but you were able to look at it and go, oh, maybe not. But it’s interesting, because it reminds me of a story with my dad who was an engineer and he did well in school and did graduate work and all the things, but he was also just so engaged and loved learning. And so when my kids were young and I had all the unschooling books everywhere, all over the house, he would read them and we’d have conversations when they were little and he said, ‘School was fine for me. But I can see that it wouldn’t work for everyone and how different it would be if there were choices.’ Because he had friends that he thought of how different it would’ve been for them to not be carrying the weight of thinking there was something wrong with them because they didn’t fit in the environment. But he said, we just didn’t really have another way to look at it. And so I loved that he could recognize that because again, some people do fine but others don’t and there’s nothing wrong with them. Those are brilliant minds that just look at things in a different way and that linear path, I mean it’s more narrow regardless. I think people that even do well on the linear path, it’s fine, but if they were to stay there, their life would be a little bit boring. But I think they take it and then they move beyond it, especially after school. But there are some kids that just want to move beyond from the beginning. They look at things differently and take information in differently. And so allowing that context and for things to make sense and having conversations really understanding how our brain works is just so valuable. I would love for people that are thinking about this to get excited. To think, this thing that I’m looking at, maybe it has been judged as a failure or that something’s wrong. But I can get excited about learning about myself and about my child. We can find the ways that work for us. So because it really is so fun and amazing, and I think community can be helpful, that is why we talk about the network, especially in these situations where you’re making a big transition because really seeing the thoughtful, amazing, brilliant other people and what they’re learning and what’s happening for their families and what’s happening with their children can just really just bolster and give us this beautiful space to share our own journey with people who understand. ERIKA: Right, especially if the environment we’re currently in does not have much space for alternative thinking. Finding the people that you can have those deeper conversations with when you’re first doing all of that questioning, I think is really amazing. And of course the network is an awesome place for it. I was also thinking that it’s a fun little exercise to think back about what you remember from school. Because for me that was a big one where it was like, okay, wait, I could say that it’s so important that they learn all these things, but then do I remember those things and does it matter now? Just little thinking experiments like that to think about, what are my big takeaways from being in school? And what did I get out of it? I think we’ve talked a lot of times about the unschooling journey and how it just opens our brains up to questioning everything. And this moment of being curious and wondering, is school really the best option for my kid? It can be that moment of, let me question this and then let me question this. And then everything opens up. And what I’ve found is that in the meantime, the kids just keep on living their best life. And because they already know what they wanna do, you know? And so if we can support them in the things that they really love to do. And then we see that, okay, when they’re really having fun, they’re learning a whole lot. Um, like that really was a, that was a big turning point for me.  And I remember having the realization that I could follow their happiness and joy. We are having a really great life. They are learning so much. If I’m constantly there as the support in helping them live their best, most joyful life, I don’t know, that became my focus, especially when they were young, when I was turning away from the idea of putting them into school. That was a new thing for me to focus on. And when I saw them, just getting so excited and pumped up about a certain topic or whatever, and then they wanted to learn more and then I could bring something else. Those moments were so fun and really gave me confidence in our decision to not go to school. ANNA: And just to build on something you said real quickly before we wrap up, kids are learning before they go to school. You can see it. Again, acquiring language, walking, colors, animals, all the things. And we as adults are learning long after school as well. And so when you can just go, oh yeah, I don’t have to go to school to learn something and put yourself into that process of, what do I need when I’m interested in something, what do I do? I gather information, I find a mentor. Whatever the things are, then you start to realize they don’t have a lock on learning. That’s  what our culture wants us to think, that you can only learn in this one type of environment. But there are so many examples across the spectrum of how we all learn at different ages without that one environment. So, you can let go of that weight and really find what works for you and your family. PAM: Yeah, and I think what Erika was saying, leaning into our kids, that’s the great next step because that’s what helps us see, like you’re saying, there’s not one way to learn in this age range, right? Recognizing that we do it before and we do it after, and then leaning into seeing our kids doing it to help us realize and recognize how much learning happens even without school. So, like I was talking about earlier, looking for learning to look like school. We don’t need it. And when we lean in and watch our kids, we see they have their interests. They’re thrilled to have the time now to dive deeper into things if they’re leaving school. It’s just beautiful to watch and just helps us shift and really open up. We realize what learning looks like and it’s just so beautiful and fun. ERIKA: Can I share one more thought? I just was thinking maybe we could also put a few links in the show notes to Deschooling, a few deschooling episodes. Because that word deschooling is what we use to describe that process of getting rid of some of those school thoughts. That might be a good next step as well. PAM: Yes, we will put those in the show notes. That’s awesome. Thank you. And thank you so much to both of you. What a very fun conversation. And as we mentioned, we invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network to dive into these kinds of conversations anytime with other kind and thoughtful parents, and we are very excited to welcome you. To learn more and join us, just follow the link in those show notes. Wishing everyone a very lovely day!