F-World: The Fragility Podcast

Dina Saleh is the Regional Director of the Near East, North Africa, and Europe Division at the International Fund for Agricultural Development (IFAD) – the only specialized global development institution exclusively focused on rural transformation. With more than 20 years of international experience, Dina has spearheaded agriculture and rural development initiatives across Eastern Europe, the Middle East, North Africa, Sub-Saharan Africa, and Asia. She has also worked with both the private sector and international organizations like the UN, gaining a unique perspective on development across fragile and conflict-affected regions. We begin our conversation by exploring Dina’s journey, starting with her early life in Yemen and Kenya, where agriculture was intrinsic to her formative years through her family’s business in agricultural trade and her schooling. This sparked her passion for rural development and gave her firsthand insights into how food systems work, ultimately leading to her current role at IFAD. We then move on to the multifaceted challenges of working in fragile states like Somalia & Sudan, where conflict, climate change, and the lack of infrastructure severely hinder agricultural productivity. Dina discusses the delicate balance of working with both pastoralists and settled farmers, addressing conflicts over land and resources through innovative infrastructure solutions, as well as community-driven governance. Our discussion also delves into gender dynamics in rural development. Dina shares a striking example from Sudan, where women were initially barred from engaging in agricultural development initiatives. Working with local leaders, IFAD was able to empower women to participate in economic activities like food processing and home-based production. These success stories underscore the importance of patience and sustained effort in achieving long-term development goals. Tune in to hear more about the role of agriculture in poverty reduction and how organizations like IFAD are adapting their strategies to meet the complex and dynamic needs of fragile states! ***** Dina Saleh IFAD: https://www.ifad.org/en/w/people/dina-saleh ***** Mihaela Carstei, Paul M. Bisca, and Johan Bjurman Bergman co-host F-World: The Fragility Podcast. X: https://x.com/fworldpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fworldpodcast/ Website: https://f-world.org Music: "Tornado" by Wintergatan. This track can be downloaded for free at www.wintergatan.net. Video editing by: Alex Mitran - find Alex on Facebook (facebook.com/alexmmitran), X (x.com/alexmmitran), or LinkedIn (linkedin.com/in/alexmmitran) EPISODE RESOURCES: Updated approach to IFAD engagement in fragile situations https://www.ifad.org/en/w/publications/updated-approach-to-ifad-engagement-in-fragile-situations TIMESTAMPS: 00:00:00 Intro 00:01:08 Dina’s story 00:03:19 Subsistence farming & the shift to commercialization 00:06:11 The roots of fragility in Yemen 00:08:35 Agriculture as a path to poverty reduction 00:12:19 Defining food systems 00:13:49 IFAD’s approach to nutrition in rural communities 00:16:18 What makes food systems fragile or resilient 00:18:12 Key trends in agriculture 00:20:00 What is IFAD? 00:23:26 IFAD in Somalia 00:28:44 Investment tools 00:31:18 IFAD’s financial instruments 00:33:15 How IFAD’s financing helps vulnerable populations 00:35:30 Role of technology in helping farmers 00:39:20 IFAD’s engagement in fragile contexts 00:45:20 Balancing crisis response & prevention 00:49:29 Measuring impact & results in fragile states 00:52:58 Working in conflict zones 00:56:15 Real-life challenges in fragile communities 00:59:45 Gender-specific challenges in rural development 01:03:30 Development misconceptions 01:08:19 Food self-sufficiency vs. trade 01:12:02 Fair trade & value for farmers 01:14:36 Water - food - energy nexus 01:18:05 Obstacles to coordination 01:20:15 Role of fertilizer 01:22:28 Hope for the future 01:25:27 Wrap-up

Stefan Dercon is Professor of Economic Policy at Oxford University, where he also directs the Center for the Study of African Economics. The author of 5 books and many studies, Stefan has had a distinguished career as an academic and policy advisor on economic development. His accomplishments are many. To name just a few: between 2011 and 2017, he was Chief Economist of the Department of International Development (DFID), the government department in charge with the UK’s aid policy and spending; between 2020-2022, he was the Development Policy Advisor to successive Foreign Secretaries at the UK’s Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office. Stefan is a virtuoso of development! His approach to our conversation was equal parts exciting and instructive, a style that also comes across in his writing, making his book very hard to put down. We start by learning about Stefan: his experience growing up in Belgium, being taught by Catholic priests about African socialism, Ujamaa and Julius Nyerere, and Marx and discovering his interest in economics as a means of pursuing development. His early career in Tanzania and Ethiopia highlighted the relationship between risk and poverty and the need to consider uncertainty when engaging in policy advice or research. We then shift to talking about the four propositions that compete as diagnoses of core problems of poverty and development that Stefan outlines in his book: poor initial endowments, market failures that trap the poor in poverty, market failures that are costly for poor countries, weak institutions. He gives us an overview and tells us why the propositions fall short on explaining the successes and failures of development. We also talk about the most important trends in development in recent decades: the dramatic decrease in poverty globally, the Africanization of poverty, and the increasing concentration of poverty in fragile states. The conversation then turns to the elites, what values drive them, and why would they gamble on a development bargain. We talk about the role of natural resources, political systems, and how external actors can influence the emergence of development bargains. We also discuss the role of Western and Chinese elites in development bargains and what is good policy advice. ***** Stefan Dercon Website: https://www.bsg.ox.ac.uk/people/stefan-dercon X: https://twitter.com/gamblingondev LinkedIn: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/stefan-dercon-45927b104 ***** Mihaela Carstei, Paul M. Bisca, and Johan Bjurman Bergman co-host F-World: The Fragility Podcast. X: https://twitter.com/fworldpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fworldpodcast/ Website: https://f-world.org Music: "Tornado" by Wintergatan. This track can be downloaded for free at www.wintergatan.net. Video editing by: Alex Mitran - x.com/alexmmitran, linkedin.com/in/alexmmitran EPISODE RESOURCES Stefan Dercon, “Gambling on Development: Why some Countries Win and Others Lose,” Hurst, London, 2022. https://www.gamblingondevelopment.com TIMESTAMPS: 00:00:00 Intro 00:01:24 Stefan’s background 00:02:49 Economics of poverty 00:04:16 Connection between risk & poverty 00:08:16 Brief overview of development thinking 00:14:57 Recent trends in development 00:19:55 The Africanization of poverty & What is fragility 00:25:39 The problem of fixed mental models of fragility 00:28:47 Who are the elites 00:41:11 The gambling in development bargains 00:47:24 What values drive the elites 00:54:25 Natural resource & political systems in dev. bargains 00:58:51 The role of Western & Chinese elites in dev. bargains 01:09:14 Are the elite bargains in the West still dev. bargains 01:19:09 Citizens’ role in dev. bargains 01:29:22 External actors & the emergence of dev. bargains 01:41:28 “Peace is ugly” – can international institutions accept it 01:51:20 Development is 50% history & 50% agency 02:00:40 Private sector role in the dev. bargain 02:09:48 What is good policy advice 02:19:56 Wrap-up

Seth Kaplan is a Visiting Fellow with the Mercatus Center’s Program on Pluralism and Civil Exchange. He is also a Professorial Lecturer at the School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS) at Johns Hopkins University, Senior Adviser for the Institute for Integrated Transitions (IFIT), and consultant to the World Bank, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), USAID, and the U.S. Department of State. Seth is the author of three books: “Fixing Fragile States: A New Paradigm for Development” (2008); “Betrayed: Promoting Inclusive Development in Fragile States (2013); and “Human Rights in Thick and Thin Societies: Universality Without Uniformity” (2018). His new book, “Fragile Neighborhoods: Repairing American Society, One Zip Code at a Time,” was published on October 17, 2023. This was an incredibly interesting conversation and full of insights about the fragility present right now in one of the most prosperous countries in the world! We start by talking about how Seth’s experience with fragility around the world helped him spot the fragility present in America’s own neighborhoods and what motivated him to write the book. We then discuss what fragile neighborhoods look like, what makes a neighborhood fragile, and the role of norms and close relationships in the fragility of our communities. Seth makes the point that fragility is about relationships, whether those are found at the local community level, between communities, or at level of national institutions – and the nature of those relationships or their absence is what makes fragility emerge. We also talk about why we have fragile neighborhoods and what policies and factors have contributed the most to this problem. Our conversation touches upon the role of public service and on the “poverty-industrial-complex” & institutional obstacles to addressing fragility in neighborhoods. Seth also makes the case for the value of prevention in terms of saving social, human, and economic capital and highlights marriage as one of the institutions that can help prevent social decay. We wrap up our conversation by discussing the need for reviving the American Dream and bringing back into our neighborhoods the robust institutions and instincts for civil society that Alexis de Tocqueville observed two centuries ago. Listen to the episode and read Seth’s book for so many more ideas on how we can help neighborhoods exit fragility! ***** Dr. Seth D. Kaplan Website: https://sethkaplan.org LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sethkaplan28 Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS) at Johns Hopkins University: https://sais.jhu.edu/users/skapla13 Mercatus Center’s Program on Pluralism and Civil Exchange: https://www.mercatus.org/scholars/seth-d-kaplan Institute for Integrated Transitions: https://ifit-transitions.org/experts/seth-d-kaplan/ Seth D. Kaplan. 2023. Fragile Neighborhoods: Repairing American Society, One Zip Code at a Time. https://amzn.to/3la0FSG ***** Music: "Tornado" by Wintergatan. This track can be downloaded for free at www.wintergatan.net. Video editing by: Alex Mitran - Facebook (facebook.com/alexmmitran), X (twitter.com/alexmmitran), or LinkedIn (linkedin.com/in/alexmmitran) TIMESTAMPS: 00:00:00 Intro 00:01:32 Seth’s experience 00:04:00 What fragile neighborhoods look like? 00:10:21 Why Seth wrote this book? 00:16:48 The role of norms & closeness in relationships 00:24:30 Migration & social cohesion in neighborhoods 00:30:19 What's not working? 00:37:25 Problems in fragile neighborhoods 00:41:50 Homelessness 00:48:54 Why we have fragile neighborhoods? 00:57:34 The hero’s journey: rethinking meritocracy 01:06:07 Placemaking & the role of jobs 01:12:44 The role of public service & elected politicians 01:17:38 The poverty industrial complex: obstacles to well being 01:26:50 Fragility prevention in neighborhoods 01:34:13 Lessons for international development 01:41:07 The case for reviving the American Dream 01:55:43 Wrap-up

Dan Runde is Senior Vice President at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), where he directs the Project on Prosperity and Development. He previously worked for the U.S. Agency for International Development (or USAID), the World Bank’s International Finance Corporation, and in investment banking with experience in Latin America, Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East. Dan recently wrote a new book called "The American Imperative: Reclaiming Global Leadership Through Soft Power." This is the first book in decades to look at U.S. non-military power through the lens of great power competition. He is also the host of "Building the Future: Freedom, Prosperity, and Foreign Policy," a podcast series focused on updating the United States’ soft power playbook to meet the hopes and aspirations of developing countries. This was an incredibly fun conversation and chock-full of insights! We start by talking about Dan’s path, from growing up in a family that taught him the importance of public service, to his experience of working for USAID, the World Bank’s IFC, and currently for CSIS. Dan then talks about his views as a conservative internationalist, and why we need the trade, security, and multilateral system that was designed and built by the US, in partnership with others, after WWII. He goes on to highlight that while the system is necessary, it cannot function in the absence of leadership and asks us to imagine which set of values we would rather have shape the world we live in. We then shift to how global development is going to be increasingly refracted through the lens of great power competition, where the tools of soft power become even more critical. Dan’s framing of development as applied foreign policy helps make the concept more real and applicable. We also discuss the areas of cooperation between US and Europe, as well as some of the tensions still present between these long-standing partners. Afterwards, we touch upon the thorny topic of mining, minerals, and climate change and the much-needed realization that decarbonization doesn't mean dematerialization. Our conversation then turns to the Global Fragility Act (GFA) and what the US needs to do to succeed in this new initiative. Dan sums up the top priorities for U.S. development efforts over the next five years: help Ukraine, close the digital divide, mining and minerals, nearshoring, and address corruption. Listen to the episode and pick up Dan’s book for so many more insights! ***** Dan Runde Website: https://www.csis.org/people/daniel-f-runde Twitter: https://twitter.com/danrunde LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielfrunde/ ***** Mihaela Carstei, Paul M. Bisca, and Johan Bjurman Bergman co-host F-World: The Fragility Podcast. Twitter: https://twitter.com/fworldpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fworldpodcast/ Website: https://f-world.org Music: "Tornado" by Wintergatan. This track can be downloaded for free at www.wintergatan.net Video editing by: Alex Mitran - find Alex on Facebook (facebook.com/alexmmitran), Twitter (twitter.com/alexmmitran), or LinkedIn (linkedin.com/in/alexmmitran) EPISODE RESOURCES: Project on US Leadership in Development: https://www.csis.org/programs/project-us-leadership-development Building the Future: Freedom, Prosperity, and Foreign Policy with Dan Runde: https://www.csis.org/podcasts/building-future-freedom-prosperity-and-foreign-policy-dan-runde TIMESTAMPS: 00:00:00 Intro 00:01:32 Dan’s background 00:10:11 What is a conservative internationalist? 00:19:37 The world needs leadership not entropy 00:23:11 What is development & the role of political engagement in donor countries 00:33:19 What is fair vs. unfair global power competition? 00:45:15 What is soft power? Development is applied foreign policy 00:52:31 US – Europe cooperation vs competition in development 01:06:24 The Global Fragility Act – how to get it right 01:10:59 Priorities for U.S. development efforts in the next five years

Seth Kaplan is a Visiting Fellow with the Mercatus Center’s Program on Pluralism and Civil Exchange. He is also a Professorial Lecturer at the School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS) at Johns Hopkins University, Senior Adviser for the Institute for Integrated Transitions (IFIT), and consultant to the World Bank, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), USAID, and the U.S. Department of State. Seth is the author of three books: “Fixing Fragile States: A New Paradigm for Development” (2008); “Betrayed: Promoting Inclusive Development in Fragile States (2013); and “Human Rights in Thick and Thin Societies: Universality Without Uniformity” (2018). His new book, “Fragile Neighborhoods: Repairing American Society, One Zip Code at a Time,” will be published in 2023. This episode is a grand tour of Seth’s core ideas about fragile and conflict-affected countries. We start by talking about Seth’s professional journey, which began out of his passion for travel and insatiable curiosity about why some societies work better than others. We then shift to the concept of fragility. Seth argues that social dynamics shape the institutions, understood both as “the rules of the game,” as well as the state apparatus. The pathways in and out of fragility or conflict depend on the interplay between formal institutions and informal social rules which govern collective action. Fragility and conflict can be prevented if social groups can come together and chart a unifying course of action that leads them towards prosperity – in other words, if they can manage political and social transitions. We then explore how these factors interact with politics, economics, and security. Seth provides a sweeping overview of situations where countries and communities made “good enough” progress to avoid collapse and even prosper, from Nigeria and Somaliland to Guatemala, India, and Indonesia. In most cases, leaders and elites were able to rally around a common storyline that enabled them achieve unity of purpose and navigate through tough transitions. We also talk about the hard cases, from Libya to Syria, Afghanistan, and Ukraine. The conversation delves into many fascinating tangents. We discuss the work of the Institute for Integrated Transitions (IFIT), and how it deploys its framework in Libya and Colombia. Seth also argues that multilateral organizations like the World Bank must create the conditions for brave leaders who can move their societies forward rather than focus on purely technical policy advice or project financing. We conclude with the reasons for hope in fragile states, and with a reflection on the skills needed to be an effective operator in the most complex societies (hint – it’s about the human soul). ***** Dr. Seth D. Kaplan Website: https://sethkaplan.org LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sethkaplan28 Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS) at Johns Hopkins University: https://sais.jhu.edu/users/skapla13 Mercatus Center’s Program on Pluralism and Civil Exchange: https://www.mercatus.org/scholars/seth-d-kaplan Institute for Integrated Transitions: https://ifit-transitions.org/experts/seth-d-kaplan/ ***** Mihaela Carstei, Paul M. Bisca, and Johan Bjurman Bergman co-host F-World: The Fragility Podcast. Twitter: https://twitter.com/fworldpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fworldpodcast/ Website: https://f-world.org Music: "Tornado" by Wintergatan. Many thanks to Wintergartan for allowing us to use their wonderful music! This track can be downloaded for free at www.wintergatan.net. Video editing by: Alex Mitran - find Alex on Facebook (facebook.com/alexmmitran), Twitter (twitter.com/alexmmitran), or LinkedIn (linkedin.com/in/alexmmitran)

Sarah Cliffe is the director of New York University’s Center on International Cooperation (CIC). Prior to that, she held several leadership positions at the World Bank and United Nations. Sarah pioneered the work on fragile and conflict-affected states at the World Bank, serving also as the Special Representative for the 2011 World Development Report on Conflict, Security, and Development. At the UN, she spearheaded efforts to help countries build civilian capacities to strengthen peacebuilding and post-conflict transitions. Sarah’s vast experience ranges from countries as diverse as Afghanistan, Rwanda, South Africa, Indonesia, and Timor-Leste. She began her career in the United Kingdom and has degrees from Cambridge University and Columbia University. This episode is full of big questions from the very beginning. To start, we speak to Sarah about her formative years, and how her early impressions of fragility and conflict were actually shaped by her upbringing in a mining town in Wales at a time of social upheaval in the United Kingdom. She also shares her perspectives on what communities at risk in the UK, South Africa, and Rwanda had in common – and why some were more resilient. Our conversation then turns more conceptual, as we take a look at how the insights of her work at the World Bank on conflict, security, and development can help us understand today’s global fragility trends. We then explore in depth the big challenges on the world stage ahead of the UN’s General Assembly meetings in September. How are the growing tensions between the US, Russia, and China affecting global governance, especially the UN? How has Russia’s invasion of Ukraine divided the international community and what are the perspectives of developing countries? What factors have influenced responses to refugees from Ukraine and beyond? How is the future of multilateralism intertwined with domestic politics? And are there any silver linings to geopolitical fragmentation and the new Cold War between the US and China? We conclude on a high note, talking about reasons to be hopeful – listen to the episode to hear Sarah share many more insights into geopolitics, fragility, and the future of global governance. Mihaela Carstei, Paul M. Bisca, and Johan Bjurman Bergman co-host F-World: The Fragility Podcast. Twitter: https://twitter.com/fworldpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fworldpodcast/ Website: https://f-world.org Music: "Tornado" by Wintergatan. Many thanks to Wintergartan for allowing us to use their wonderful music! This track can be downloaded for free at www.wintergatan.net.

Alexandre Marc is a political scientist and economist with over 30 years of experience working in areas of conflict and fragility across four continents. Alexandre was the Chief Specialist for Fragility, Conflict and Violence at the World Bank, and is the lead author of the United Nations-World Bank flagship report Pathways for Peace: Inclusive Approaches to Preventing Violent Conflict (2018). He also co-led the preparation of the World Bank’s Strategy for Fragility, Conflict, and Violence 2020-2025. This is the first episode in a series with Alexandre covering the Pathways for Peace report, the stories that underpin its core ideas, and his recent work on the geopolitics of fragility. We start by talking about Alexandre’s upbringing and how traveling with his parents – an adventure worthy of an Indiana Jones movie - led him to discover the wonders of different cultures. Experiences such as staying in an archeological mission in Egypt, crossing Afghanistan and Iran by car, and a road trip from Paris to Jordan sparked Alexandre’s interest in how different cultures coexist and led him to try to understand conflict. We then talk about to the relationship between the price of bananas and witchcraft in Cameroon – and we sure had questions about it! Alexandre then shares with us how caring about people, culture, and history helps you better understand the origins and dynamics of conflict, the need to differentiate between conflict and violent conflict, and how the rise in what he calls “conflicts of fragility” led to the Pathways for Peace report. The conversation also explores how actors, institutions, and structural factors can push a country towards peace or conflict, why peace is desirable, the dangers of horizontal inequality, and the importance of dignity. And there’s so much more! Listen to the episode to hear Alexandre share many more insights into fragility, conflict, and peace.

Katherine Marshall is professor of the practice of development, conflict, and religion in the Walsh School of Foreign Service at Georgetown University and one of the world's foremost experts on the nexus between faith, ethics, and development. In her 35 years with the World Bank, Katherine was a pioneer for women in international development and led the Bank's work in some of the world's most fragile and poor nations. She was also one of the first international development experts to work on the critical importance of religion in global development. In the first part of our conversation, we talk about Katherine’s experience as a woman as she joined the World Bank in 1971, what was then seen as new ideas about women as actors in development, the slowly dawning awareness of the importance of girls’ education, and the need to defend both the roles of women within the institution and the roles of women in development. Katherine then shares with us how she became fascinated by the topic of religion at a time development professionals rarely spoke about or thought much about it. She calls it an adventure with a large number of large blind spots. It was fascinating because it took the work and the institution of the World Bank itself into a new area of ethics, reaching into more fundamental questions about what development is and how different economic models affect people's lives. We also talk about how development and religious organizations relate to different established orthodoxies. One of the ironies Katherine mentions is the religious sounding language used to describe many aspects of the work of development institutions - people go on missions and they follow a doctrine that relies on unseen forces and invisible hands. Listen to the episode to hear Katherine discuss many more fascinating connections between religion and development. The episode was recorded on April 9th, 2021. Mihaela Carstei, Paul M. Bisca, and Johan Bjurman Bergman co-host F-World: The Fragility Podcast. Twitter: https://twitter.com/fworldpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fworldpodcast/ Website: https://f-world.org Music: "Tornado" by Wintergatan . Many thanks to Wintergartan for allowing us to use their wonderful music! This track can be downloaded for free at www.wintergatan.net. Free License to use this track in your video can be downloaded at www.wintergatan.net.

Koen Davidse is the World Bank Group’s Executive Director from the Netherlands since 2018. He represents a group of countries that also includes Armenia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Georgia, Israel, North Macedonia, Moldova, Montenegro, Romania, and Ukraine. Previously, he served as the Deputy Special Representative of the UN Secretary-General in Mali and held senior positions in the Netherlands’ Ministry of Foreign Affairs. In the beginning of our conversation, Koen shares his reasons for choosing a career in diplomacy and development, with stints in India, Sudan, Mali, and also at the World Bank and UN. We then talk about why security sector reform (SSR) that builds effective but also affordable militaries, police, and justice institutions is essential to make progress on economic development in fragile states. Next, we delve deeper into his work in Sudan and Mali. We discuss the challenges of being an honest broker in the implementation of the peace agreement leading to South Sudan’s independence in 2011 and what it’s like to lead a peacekeeping mission aiming to bring stability in Mali. Throughout the episode, Koen shares his insights about why we need peace entrepreneurs to make lasting change, what it takes to achieve better coordination between peace, development, and humanitarian actors, and how to put vulnerable people at the center of global efforts to help fragile states. This episode was recorded on June 18, 2021. Mihaela Carstei, Paul M. Bisca, and Johan Bjurman Bergman co-host F-World: The Fragility Podcast. Twitter: https://twitter.com/fworldpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fworldpodcast/ Website: https://f-world.org Music: "Tornado" by Wintergatan . Many thanks to Wintergartan for allowing us to use their wonderful music! This track can be downloaded for free at www.wintergatan.net. Free License to use this track in your video can be downloaded at www.wintergatan.net.

Sara Noshadi is an expert on the reconstruction of cultural heritage and creative economies in war-torn countries. She has developed and led national programs promoting unity and reconciliation through culture in Iraq after the fall of the Islamic State (2017), as well as in Afghanistan. Originally from Iran, Sara was trained as an anthropologist at the University of Tehran and worked at the National Center for Scientific Research in Paris. In this episode, Sara tells the story of how a trip to post-civil war Tajikistan led her to focus on culture as a force for solidarity and peace. We discuss why it is so difficult to work on this agenda in fragile and conflict-affected states, where typical economic development programs fail to take into account the complex role of culture in shaping project outcomes. Sara also shares her views on how using culture as a lens can help make urban planning or mining projects more effective, and why conflict-affected states would benefit from 30 year-long national cultural programs disconnected from donor funding cycles. Lastly, we talk about how cultural programming can help children and youth imagine a different future for themselves and new shared fictions for their countries. The episode was recorded on May 19, 2021.