Getting Work To Work

I want to prime you with a question asked by today’s guest during our conversation: “What does it mean for you to be fully expressed as a human being in whatever shape that takes?” So much of our life and work is spent in opposition to what we actually want, and yet the possibilities are truly endless. Sarah Bush is a mixed media artist who explores “the relationship between materials and ideas” with fiber, metal, handmade books, and the written word. In our conversation, we dive deep into imagination, the creative process, and the importance of struggle in our work. We also talk about healing through our work, making work that is true versus good, how risk changes as we get older, the role of mystery in her work, the threads that weave through it all, how to commit to your vision, and Sarah’s obsession with scale. Show Links Sarah Bush Artworks What’s Wrong with Hard? – The Pink Teacup Paul Simon David Byrne Robert Plant Devin Townsend A World Appears: A Journey into Consciousness by Michael Pollan Transcript Chris Martin: It’s always fun when you meet people for the first time and they just put you in a place of not ease, but just calm and peace and excitement for the conversation. And I think you just bring an energy to the Zoom room of just that. So welcome to the show. Sarah Bush: Thank you so much. I’m so happy to be here. CM: Awesome. Well, I love asking this question of everyone I talk with, and it’s, what are you endlessly curious about? SB: Well, one of the reasons that I make art is that it feeds my endless curiosity. And it’s one of the places in the world where I can’t be bored. And also partly because I set the terms. So that really interests me. The creative process and how it works, I find that really interesting, and I do find exploring how to use my imagination as almost like a spiritual practice, a lifelong endeavor. And so all the things I love to do most, make art, garden, spiritual work, it’s all, to me, those will keep me busy till I’m dead. CM: What a great way to describe it, ’cause I feel like we look at work as this thing that we do drudgingly until we die, as opposed to how you just phrased it as like, “This is gonna keep me busy until I’m dead.” And there’s almost a freedom to that, as opposed to the drudgery nature of how we often look at it. SB: That’s right, and I think that’s like owning your work. And understandably, a lot of people can’t own their work, when it’s externally imposed upon you it can feel a lot like drudgery. But then I think we can also treat anything really challenging as drudgery. And one of my other big mantras is—I wrote a blog post called What’s Wrong with Hard?—and it’s one of my more popularly read ones. I’m glad it’s popular because I think we live in a culture obsessed with natural talent and things that come easily, and when something doesn’t, people think, “Oh, that’s not my thing.” And I think, oh, how strange. That anything worth doing is usually hard, and that if you’re just okay with it being hard, then it kinda opens up a lot. CM: It’s so interesting that you said that too, because one of the areas that I have a lot of conversation around is friction, and that needed component of work that, yes, it is hard, it is challenging. That’s how you develop the abilities, the skills to continually do your work. And yet I think we do live in a society that wants things to make it easier for us, for whatever reason. I don’t know why. SB: I know. I think some of it is because we have this thing about natural talent and natural abilities that other cultures actually don’t have so strongly. And I also think what’s so interesting about that is that those aspects of our work, like the things that we do find hard, they’re almost like a spiritual practice too. I think basically what’s hard for me is that I’m facing the thing in myself, like my anxiety, I don’t know how to do this. What I’m bumping up against is often internal about the process that I find where all the friction is really, and that, like I always thought as an artist, I try to, when I’m talking to other artists about pricing, like I was a designer for a long time, and we all had to pr- I kind of enjoy it, but it took, you’re really bumping up against your feelings of self-worth. All those issues come up, and so it’s like an opportunity really to heal that stuff, through your work, through this thing you’re giving your time to, and treating it like this little lens onto what’s going on inside. CM: That’s interesting. What was that process to go from the world of design and wrestling against the self-worth and charging and pricing to then that point of expansion to where you enter the world of art and you’re like, “Okay, this is what I’m doing now,” and it sounds like there’s a lot of freedom that showed up for you. SB: Yes and no. I also think design, it tends to be more concrete. You have these concrete parameters and you’re working with them, and there is something soothing about that. And then you’re still facing things, like if I’m making a product, I’ve designed so much jewelry and so many personal accessories and you’re in a meeting and discussing the price, it’s much more nuts and bolts. When you have a painting that you made and the price feels much more about, like you’re pricing your soul or something. And then you have to kind of still address that and think about how to hold that lightly. Sometimes from my design background, I’ll think, “Well, with that price, I had to make things that were wholesale.” So now, if a gallery has my art, what’s the price? If someone comes into my studio, what’s the price? So it’s still varied. I just think that answering to yourself with your work, regardless of whether you sell it or not, that’s where that freedom lies that you’re talking about, where you make something that resonates for yourself. And you are trying to make something true more than you’re trying to make something good. And that is to me where you get more committed to your process. CM: Oh, that’s really interesting. True versus good. SB: I think about that all the time. Because when you go to art school, you really learn how to make something good or you try to make something good. And in a funny way, you have to unlearn a lot of that if you wanna make something true, and it will push you to make something that maybe won’t be good at the end, and it’s true. And then you maybe that expands your capacity. And then also it helps me more understand when people are new to making work, they’re very driven to make something good, and that is where all the angst is because when you’re new at something, it’s harder to make something good. And then everyone talks about how you should feel so great about making something bad. I think that’s not easy to like making something bad, but I also think kind of honoring it is important, honoring it as part of your process and as part of your journey. And I’ve made work, I’ve felt like, “Oh, that fell on its sword for me. And now I can make the thing correctly now.” CM: I feel like we don’t let time speak enough in our lives in terms of how long it takes to be able to make something good. I think about when I was younger just starting out and, yeah, you’re right, I felt that in order to be worthy of what I was doing, I had to make something good immediately. SB: Yes. I think there is a great pressure there, and I also think social media kind of creates that illusion. You see a lot of things that seem to happen in a one-minute video, and that part, you know, is hard. And also, don’t you find that as you get older, there’s less risk for me to make something bad because I’ve made a lot of things I consider good. And so, yeah, that one didn’t work out. It’s not such a verdict about my ability as it is when you’re starting and you don’t have things that you’re proud of yet. And I think that stuff’s really legitimate and bringing more awareness to what’s happening. So really, the stakes are lower for me to screw up at this point. And so I can tell you to screw up and enjoy it, but I think it’s a way of finding that mercy with yourself when you’re having the courage to make something and try to express yourself. CM: What comes to mind as you’re talking about this too is my wife and I watch a lot of competitive cooking shows, and inevitably someone always says, “You know, if I win this, it’ll prove to my parents, prove to my family members that all this time spent was worth it.” And it’s just like, “Uh, okay that’s kinda sad,” you know? SB: Yes, and darn it. That’s the other weird part on a social level that people maybe aren’t that comfortable with you committing to something that doesn’t show quick success, that doesn’t make you money. One of the things I used to always say is that it’s such a reflection on our culture. When you make something, one of the biggest compliments that someone will give is, “Wow that’s so good you could sell it.” That’s the framework that the culture has offered to determine something’s value. And so that’s why it’s also so important that you can sell it. And why so many of us artists have this angst about that, or these cooking show people who are trying to prove that they could get that great chef’s job or whatever it is. CM: Value is one of those conversations too that is very challenging, whether you’re a artist or a designer. And I think sometimes I feel like it’s not the right conversation to have. I feel it’s one of those conversations that we let us distract from answering the question, what do you want to do with your life? Because personally, I spent 20 years trying to satisfy other people and still struggled. And yet, as I move forward, I’m thinking, “How can I answer this call that I have in my spirit in a way that might actually yield better valued results down the line?” I don’t actually know, but I’m willing to go that way because history has proven that this other way that I was doing wasn’t actually valuable. SB: That’s right. I agree with that, and also in a funny way, social media exacerbates that. “Like me! Like me!” If you have a lot of likes, you’re validated, but from an artist point of view, it’s so clear there’s certain kind of art that’s gonna get a like online. Very graphic, very bold. So it’s very hard to see something on a phone, the image is the tiny image. All of it. You know, it’s not really that much of a direct experience, so it skews, you know? If you make work that doesn’t really take photograph well or all those things. CM: And there’s so much more to our senses than just vision. My mom makes handmade bags, and so she sews and makes bags. And when I see people walk up to them, sometimes they’re afraid to even touch them, as if they’re gonna break the bag. And usually it’s the people who walk up and start undoing the button and seeing what’s inside and having that tactile experience, they’re the ones that tend to probably purchase more than the people who just kind of view it as this art that would just sit there and not do anything. SB: So interesting, that willingness to engage and connect with it. And also, I think, um- I mean, what’s, one, one, one nice thing about that is they are at least being reverential kind of about the handmade object. And I think that we have so little of that. Like, people are so unaware of how most things are made that it makes it really hard to appreciate that. Like, for an American artist, like when I work with natural dyes or things like that, like people get those things from people in other cultures and countries that whose cost of living is completely different. And, it’d be really hard to compensate someone appropriately here. I have a friend who’s an unbelievable knitter. And people are always saying, “Oh, you should sell those.” And she’s thinking, “Would you pay $1,000 for them?” I don’t think you would. So some things are even hard to sell, you know? CM: One of the interesting things about you, Sarah, is you do multiple things. So you aren’t just, like, um, you know, you aren’t just like a painter. You are, you are many things, and I love that you describe your art as the exploration of the relationship between materials and ideas. Like, that, to me, was mind-blowing. Because oftentimes we think of art as the idea and the relationship between the idea and the audience. But I like even taking it back and saying, how do these ideas and materials work together? And so have you always had this clarity about this freedom from the weight of specialization and not feeling like you need to niche down and stay in your lane, and all those stupid phrases that we use to keep people, like, stuck in this homogenous world of categorization? SB: I used to kind of beat myself up. I used to say, “Oh, jack of all trades.” CM: Master of none. SB: Master of none. Because, I always worked in multiple things and that gets kind of penalized, I’d say. And then I finally was like, “Screw it,” you know? “This is who I am and what I’m gonna do, and I just have to honor that.” Otherwise, I just can’t make what I make. And I like fusing things. I feel like the important thing a little bit is to not just learn techniques to learn them. Like, I’m usually trying to figure out how it helps me express something. Like, when I want a particular technique or I wanna use a different material, I have a reason generally. And even if I’m learning, like I can explore a technique when I’m not sure of that, but always I’m thinking, you know, how is this serving my- muse or what I want, you know, what is this doing? ‘Cause I’ll s- sometimes I’ll start, I’ll try to solve a problem, like I’m in the middle of something. Mm, it’s not working. Maybe I need to try something else. I, I go down this rabbit hole, and then I might come out of that rabbit hole saying, “No, no.” Or I’m very drawn to materials, and then I’m seeking to see how that relates back to, like, my kind of priorities and, and generally how I express myself or the ideas that really interest me. CM: Do you have an example of something recently that you kinda dove into to kind of explore as you’re talking about this, this something new or this new idea? SB: I really like to try something new in the winter. Like, I’m hunkered inside. I decided to learn how to do rust printing on fabric. So I have a fiber degree, which I then kinda walked away from and, and became a real mixed-media artist. Like, do- in all my design jobs, blah, blah, and then on the side of what I was doing my mixed-media artwork. And then in the last few years I feel like I’ve done this return and doing new things about it. When I was getting my master’s degree it wasn’t, natural dyes for instance weren’t really big, but that’s something that’s really important to me now. So playing with those. So I was learning this rust because I was just intrigued- By the process. And then as I’m learning it, I am, you know, watching different videos and then thinking, I’m trying these different fabrics. I’m always asking myself, which one is resonating with me? Why is that resonating? What do I want out of that? Like, I put this on this Japanese cotton. I’m like, “Yeah, it’s all right. I probably won’t, I don’t need to do that anymore.” Then I do silk charmeuse and I’m like, “Oh, yes. Okay. This is right. I… Okay. This can help me explore my interest in symbols and images.” ‘Cause I’m laying these rusty pieces down and I’m getting these really sharp, clear images, which is blowing me away. And then the shimmer of the charmeuse is sort of luscious to me. Then I’ll play with the form. I start making them very long and narrow, and I’m thinking, “Oh, is that, like, a priest’s stole around the neck?” Or, oh, now I’m thinking, “Ah, I’m gonna riff on these very early…” I like book arts and I like these very early book forms. And I was reading about these very early Chinese books, and so they, they tore strips of bamboo off the bamboo, and they wrote down in it. And I even think, someone can correct me who’s listening if I’m wrong, that that’s why they write vertically is because their first sort of papers were long and narrow. And so I think, “Oh, my long and narrow charmeuse, like, now I’m gonna grow off this, my book.” ‘Cause I saw all these bamboo sheets lined up, and I thought, “Oh, I’m doing that, but with silk and with the rust.” And then I’ll blend it. I’ll experiment with blending it with the indigo or different tannins to get subtle gradations of tone that, you know, maybe help express this mystery I’m trying to communicate or something. CM: It’s that mystery that’s so captivating, isn’t it? SB: Yes. I have a series I’ve been working in for a while that I call Bowing to the Mystery, but I almost feel like that’s all my work. That’s what I’m trying to do with all my art is bow to the mystery. CM: I love the way you lit up when you started talking about that exploration, too, because I think there’s power in that. That power to be almost that childlike- part of your soul that, that is willing to just try something even if it’s not gonna work, and you have no proof or reason. SB: And there’s plenty of them that don’t work, and then you have this handful that does work. And then it feels like a conversation, you know? I really like all the subtlety there of the conversation with the materials. CM: How do you then bring that back to other parts of your practice then? So if you’re doing rust printing on silk charmeuse, how do you bring that back to a canvas or metal or different things that you might do? SB: Well, it’s more like, oh, am I starting a new body of work based on those? I already had bought these headboards from a thrift store, like of an old children’s bed. So then I thought, “Oh, I’m gonna cut those up, reshape them.” So I go to the saw and I’m reshaping them, and then I’m like, “Ooh, I love this shape.” And now my strips will hang from there. And then I’m thinking about Indian art and Persian art and all the looking, looking, looking that I do and things moving. Then it becomes more like how my priorities get expressed through different media. The same priorities getting expressed through different media. The shininess thing, it’s always with me. I’ve worked on metal, literally worked on metal, then I was working making these large black pieces with Queen Anne’s lace that I pressed, and I’m painting them and people are coming into my studio saying, “Are those metal?” I’m thinking, “Oh, that’s so interesting that that looks like…” But I’m using powdered graphite on them, and so they have the sheen. And then the silk charmeuse, it’s the shiny stuff I want. So there’s always these interconnecting threads of how each thing is relating to each other even though- On the surface or on the immediate moment, they might look quite different. CM: I love the use of the word thread, too, ’cause it’s both literal and metaphorical for you. SB: That’s right. That is often my metaphor, and that’s no accident. CM: I think that’s the important thing that people don’t think enough about, especially those who want to explore different mediums, is that in a sense they are the thread through their work. As opposed to needing to find some organizing principle that makes sense to the external world or something. Let yourself be the thread that weaves through your work. SB: That’s exactly right. That’s almost like a sacred thing; don’t cheapen that. And also, I think that there is a rush to niche yourself, and I see people doing that where I think, “No, no, no, no. Keep going. Keep going. You’re just getting started. Don’t, don’t rush there.” Because you might make a few things that are good in a certain way, and then you start to think, “Oh, that’s my voice.” And I think your voice is bigger than that. Let your voice bloom. Don’t get too narrow too quickly so that you can say you have a style, because you don’t wanna just mimic yourself. I don’t like it when I feel like someone, I’m thinking, “Are you just making the same painting over and over?” What are you doing? It’s a little over product-y for me, I guess. Even though I love products and I love objects. I like things. I’ve made so many things. I like them. I like packaging the little things. I like all that stuff. CM: I think about music a lot, and one of the things that always intrigues me are the artists who almost become the band who’s the legacy artist. You know, like The Rolling Stones or, you know, you get a little bored because they’re just playing the hits. And yet there’s the artists who reinvent themselves, sometimes to the detriment of success or to the fan base because, oh, there they go, they’re, you know, doing something different again. And yet as an artist, you look at that going, “I want that freedom to be willing to chase and follow where my creativity goes, and hopefully my audience will as well.” SB: I have so much respect for that. Like the Paul Simons of the world or the David Byrnes or Robert Plant. You’re a committed musician. It wasn’t like something, you were in your 20s, you happened to be in a band that got popular, and now you’re in your 70s thinking, “We could all make a bunch of money if we just play those old songs again,” and people get to go down memory lane. That’s what’s happening at those shows where it’s really in service of someone’s memory, where it’s just about that nostalgia. But when they’re just really committed to their craft, I think that’s great. I’m exactly there with you on that, and those are the people that I really admire. CM: There’s this one artist that I follow. He’s from Canada, and he’s done everything from extreme metal to ambient soundscapes. And his latest album took 10 years to make, and it’s actually a combination of all those sounds, and there’s just so much respect for that ’cause it’s just like on a commercial level I can’t imagine it being popular, and yet he has a fan base that gives him the freedom to explore that. And I think what that does for me is it expands the language of possibility that is constricted by what the world tells me I should be and do. SB: Yes. It’s liberating. He’s role modeling how to be committed to your own vision through all that sound collection. I know exactly why he’s collecting those sounds. That’s how I am. Like, I’m collecting, collecting to help me put them together. The way I want. CM: Sarah, you said something a little bit ago that really got me thinking, and it was the creative return to what you studied before. And you were talking about your art degree and all that. I think a lot about return, and that the creative process is as much about leaving as it is coming back, and that relationship between going and staying. There’s a rhythm there that I think is important. SB: Fascinating. And in that sense, I wonder if there’s parts of you that know it before your brain knows it. When my husband and I moved to New Mexico several years ago, we were looking at different houses, and each one I was like, “Well, where’s my studio gonna be?” Don’t tell me about that guest bedroom. That’s not adequate. We came into this building that we live in now, and it had almost like a whole other side. And I was like, “Oh, this whole place, this place could be my studio.” And it had this little rustic kitchen, and I was so charmed, and I said out loud, “That’ll be my dye studio.” I thought, “Why did I even say that? I’m not dyeing anything.” And that’s exactly what it is. It’s my dye studio. It’s my dye kitchen. So it’s like I almost felt some part of me knew it before my brain knew it. CM: That connection of our body to our space is so important, and I don’t think we think enough about that. SB: I agree. And also trying to honor who you are in your space by asking for a space that gives you what you need when you can do that. CM: I’ve seen a photo of your studio that you’re talking about, and it honestly looks like something out of a movie. SB: Oh my God. CM: And I’m curious how that space inspires your creativity. When you moved there and you started to let your creativity inhabit that space, how did you change as a result? SB: Well, I wonder if having that separate kitchen really opened that up. It opened up two things for me. It opened up having a nice space to make a giant mess of starting seeds inside in that kitchen, and then also I can dye things. No one really encourages a lot of dyeing of fabric in your regular eating kitchen. So having this little rustic kitchen to do that in, the space helped me then create. I didn’t have to assert myself so much, like go hunt a place down, and that part then allows that to blossom. And I think that it would be hard to think of making very large work in a very small space. And so you are inhabiting a space, and it is affecting your imagination, I would say. Not like making large work is superior or anything, but it does, I think, change what you make. What can you get out the door? And even when I was looking at that space, we had to renovate a little, ’cause it’s a live-work space. We live here. I got doors made that had a garage door, and I thought, “Well, I need these… I can’t have these doors open because they’re gonna use up too much wall space. I need them.” And the guy’s like, “What if they slide?” And then I was like, “Yeah, okay. Sliding works.” And they open up more, and that would let me get something outside… CM: Oh, cool. SB: …that was bigger. And then, for someone who’s thinking, “I can’t do any of that,” one thing that does strike me that a lot of people do who are creative is they give themselves no space in their home. Our house is a place we do things. It’s not a showplace. And yeah, that means I have to clean like a mad woman maybe when people come over. People who are very neat, you can’t really create if you put everything away. You’re really inhibiting that ability because you have to look at those things. Things have to be out. Or a guest room, and I think, “Well, how many times do you have guests? Why is this sitting here like a hotel room?” I get the importance of a guest room, but if it’s 10% of the time, you should be using that the other 90% for yourself and your creativity. And if you are super neat, it’s a room that you can be less neat in and then shut the door. CM: Right. And just start throwing paint in there. SB: Yeah. Let’s see what happens. I’ll tell people, you know, if your sewing machine’s in the closet, you’re not using it. Period. It has to be out or you’re not gonna use it. CM: Right. Doesn’t matter the tool if it’s not there, out of sight, out of mind. SB: That’s right. If you get the urge and then you take everything out, by that time something else has happened and you can’t keep going. CM: I laughed when you said, “Can you get your art out the door?” I built a workbench in my space here and I couldn’t get it out the door ’cause I made it too wide. You don’t really think about things like that until you actually make something. I think scale is important, especially in the digital world, because right now our scale is the size of our hand in a sense of our phones or our tablets or our TV screens, and that’s small comparatively speaking. SB: I can’t believe you brought that up. I’m obsessed with scale, and on the internet, to me, the most deceptive thing is scale. It’s very difficult to appreciate the size of anything. And we have no idea. Just because you know how to mail a letter doesn’t really mean you know anything about shipping a container. You’re still mailing something completely different experience. When you change scale, everything changes. CM: Yes. Just thinking about moving to another area and taking your entire house and putting it in a truck, that’s hard to do. It’s hard to conceive of that, and yet when that happens, it allows how you think and your imagination to change as follows. SB: That’s right. Just like when you learn a new technique or a new tool, it changes your imagination. It changes what you can think up, because now you have more skills to utilize with your imagination, and your imagination will accommodate you accordingly. CM: At what point in your journey did imagination really enter your picture as something that you wanted to think and write about? SB: I feel like my imagination is my best friend. I really rely on my imagination. I trust it. And then several years ago, I got involved in a small spiritual community where they were talking about the imagination more, and on a spiritual level. And because the imagination matters to me, I was very struck by that. And I was very struck by the idea of using my imagination as a tool of connection, a way to expand my understanding of the universe, deepen into my sense of myself in the web of life. All those things that felt like they mattered so much. We have kind of an Earth-based focus in this group, it’s almost like how the imagination can be a form of prayer. Just in its connective capacity, really, and even imagination as becoming and it’s so much more than creating, and even so, the universe is constantly creating itself. When we create, we are a part of that constant creation and there’s not a lot of conscious awareness to me about that. And then the same thing is true with the imagination. A lot of people will tell me they don’t have much of an imagination, and yet everyone on a low grade way is using their imagination every day. Everything around us in this, in our built environment started in someone’s imagination. All the problems that we’re in now started in someone’s imagination. The human imagination got us into this mess, and the human imagination is gonna get us out. We have to start realizing that our imaginations have that capacity, and that we could take responsibility for our imaginations by embracing them, and understanding how our imaginations work so that when someone tries to hijack your imagination, that you understand what’s happening, and then you can stop handing over your power and, and take it back and understanding the reason someone hijacks your imagination is your imagination is very powerful. So when they start insinuating a lot of terrible things that that might happen, and then each separate one of us picks the terrible thing that scares us the most, and tell, and fills in the blanks. Our fear and our imagination are very old friends. But our dreams, our hopes, our love, those can also be old friends with our imagination. We just have to be willing to consciously embrace that. CM: I love that reminder that imagination is a spectrum between fear and hope. And it just kind of reminds me of you can’t be necessarily in one place and hope for the other. You can’t be in hope and thinking about fear. You can’t be fearful and thinking about hope, in a sense. It’s hard. SB: That’s right. It’s also natural that part of our survival mechanism is our fear and our imagination’s relationship in our amygdala brain or whatever. But also, being willing to take responsibility for that. When I’m worrying, I’m using my imagination to come up with the worst-case scenario. And then I can stop doing that. And I can ask my imagination to do something else. CM: How have you learned to incorporate your imagination in your creative process? ‘Cause sometimes with the creative process, it’s just like input, process, output, input, process, output. But an important part of input comes into the process, and then the imagination starts to do something that the process could never contain, if you let it. SB: Our imaginations love a container, and your art can be that container. And it gives it, the imagination, a place to land and grow. An idea in your imagination, it can help it evolve. And as you get more familiar with that, you use it more. I just taught a little class, and kind of that process through the act of making something very concrete, like sort of finding out how you’re feeling, then trying to take the next step with making this object based on that, and then getting to the real thing that you’re caring about. And through that give and take between your idea or the concept of what you might make based on your feelings, for instance, and then wrap it, trying to wrap it in this container, a thing, a painting, uh, a toy, then using that vehicle, that container to listen and ask yourself. It’s like when you allow that first step, maybe that all comes out and then you’re like, “Is that really what I mean? Is that what I mean? Is this really what I mean?” And this, it becomes to me like a conversation between the materials and the ideas. Like that, oh, the materials, you’re trying to put it somewhere that makes sense to you, so that’s why you’re doing it that way. Things are allowed to emerge because you are in this play between the materials in the process and your… So even if your idea’s kind of nascent, you’re not really, it’s hard for you to have words for that idea. It’s like a listening. And so for me, it’s like a trusting of my imagination. So like even when you’re listening to your work, you’re really trusting your imagination, instead of dismissing something that’s coming into your head. That tight relationship between your intuition and your imagination, and if it pops into my head, I trust that. CM: It’s funny that you mention trust, ’cause that was the thing that was in my mind as you were talking. How did you learn to trust that voice, to trust your imagination? ‘Cause I think sometimes we look at this idea that comes into our mind, and we only trust it if it has economic value or there’s some clear ROI or whatever business term we wanna throw on that idea, and essentially drown it under some weight of responsibility. And yet, if we don’t trust our imagination, we could never get there. SB: That’s right. And we also could never get to a new place.Sometimes making art you can be thinking, “Oh, no one’ll buy that.” “If I do that, no one’s buying that piece. It’s too weird,” or something. And then you’re basically refusing to listen. And it’s in tandem with being on your own side. And I feel like when we’re really self-critical or when we’re being perfectionist…I really think perfectionism is a form of self-violence and people can be very attached to their perfectionism, like it’s a high standard. But I think holding yourself to a high standard is different. When you finally decide that you’re willing to be on your own side then you have to practice being on your own side. Instead of like, “Oh, look at this piece of shit I just made.” “This sucks.” And then the little story gets going. See, what was I thinking? And then your imagination’s like, “Oh, I’ll help you there.” If we wanna talk about how, what a piece of crap you are. Like you, you know, you’ve honed that. And so it’s sort of like being unwilling to continue that path. And then I think you have to… So that’s like sort of I guess finding your why really, like why do you wanna do it enough? One of my obsessions is being all in on my life. It’s my life. I’m here. I don’t wanna lie on my death bed and be like, “Oh, I was afraid to make a bad art.” You know? I would find that very disappointing. Oh, I didn’t wanna do that thing ’cause I thought someone would reject me. And I still struggle with those things, but my driver is strong to overcome that. When you do, if you do decide to do that, when you get rewarded, like where the maybe the piece works out because you took a risk or you listened, then it’s a little easier to try again. CM: I’m just taking that all in, ’cause you just dropped something incredibly important that I want to sit with and that I hope the audience sits with. Always looking for the out so that you don’t have to, in a sense, do the hard thing, do the thing that you know you really wanna do, sometimes you can expend all of your energy just looking for the out so that you don’t have to step up. That is what I’ve done for so long, was looking for the out. And so, as you’re sharing this connection back to yourself, back to your life, it’s an invitation. It’s an invitation to not be afraid of yourself anymore. SB: Yeah and to be your own ally. Don’t think I have it all figured out. I just have my mission, you know? That’s what I want for myself. I wanna not be afraid. Especially when a lot of those things we have to be afraid of. But there’s a lot of things that we make up to be afraid of. CM: I’m just very grateful because I think what you have allowed your imagination to do in this conversation is to show the way forward in a way that is life-affirming, art-giving, and expansive, as opposed to shutting someone down, putting them in a box, making it too constrictive. I’m very grateful of what you’re doing right now ’cause I think it’s so necessary. Your voice is so powerful and needed in this world. SB: Oh, thank you so much. Gosh. CM: That’s the thing that I love about these conversations, you’re able to connect with someone that you’ve never met before, to connect with their mission. And I hope it reveals to other people what their mission could be, and that they see that it’s worthy to go all in on that. SB: Yes. That’s a lot of my writing, I think. What does it mean for you to be fully expressed as a human being in whatever shape that takes. Why not commit to that? Not because you know what’ll happen, because there’s such dignity in taking the risk. There’s such dignity in throwing yourself into it, and when we see that in other people, generally we’re really rooting for them. CM: It’s really hard to root for someone if all your experience of them is just this talking video that’s muted on Instagram. But as you start actually conversing with them or interacting with their writing or their thinking they start to become this fully formed human being, as opposed to just some digital avatar talking at you. SB: Yeah, or if you only see everything that looks perfect. So when we moved here, we had this crazy yard. Like, it’s really hard to garden here in New Mexico, like the hardest I’ve ever had. And I was out in this yard, and it’s on a busy-ish corner, and I’d be out there throwing myself into like pickaxing, the wind is blowing, and ‘m just all immersed in my thing, struggling. My struggle was extremely overt and people would yell out the window like, “You go, girl.” I thought people just loved seeing you willing to throw yourself into it. I had somebody walk up behind me like, “It so inspires me what you’re trying to do here.” He got out of his car. Like I jumped out of my skin. He was going, “I’m so sorry. I have to go visit my mother, and I just wanted to come up and tell you.” And I just think it’s that, that’s as simple as being honest with your struggle. Because there’s just integrity to it. No one can take it from you. And I get it about being revealed. It’s hard for me to show my works in progress, but I do show my sketchbook pages now, which has been really good for me in my posts on The Pink Teacup. And so it’s like a spectrum there as well. But you know, I often think about someone like Oprah. She doesn’t understand that the fact that she struggled with her weight her whole life was what made her so accessible. The reason she had all these women who loved her is that angst about her weight. It wasn’t like she was heavy and was fine with it. She wasn’t fine with it. She was constantly struggling with it. But that’s what made her human, because if she didn’t have that struggle, it would seem like she had no problems. And so it was the way to connect. The vulnerability. CM: Yeah, that connection through struggle as well. Cause then it’s like, “Oh, you don’t have it all together. Oh, you’re not, you know, innately talented with what you’re doing, yet you’re really good at what you’re doing. So maybe I need to change a story about what I think about talent or, you know, success.” SB: That’s right. Yes, because a lot of people think, “Well, those people, it’s just easy for them, and it’s really hard for me.” I think like, “No, no, it’s hard for them.” Make no mistake, It’s hard for them. CM: Well, Sara, I could honestly talk with you all day long. You are a bundle of positive energy and creative energy, and I’m all for that. But, um, thank you for being here. And as we end our time together, is there a bit of wisdom other than the last hour that you’ve shared that you’d like to leave with the audience? SB: Know that you’re creative, know that you have an imagination, and that when you are trying to explain to me in your head right now that you’re not, that that’s just a story you’re telling yourself, and there’s a myriad ways of expressing all of that, and art is just one of them. CM: Well said. Well, final question for you. Is there a book, podcast, or resource that’s blowing your mind right now? SB: I’ve been following all the little trails about plants having consciousness. And Michael Pollan’s doing the route of all the famous podcasters talking about plant consciousness. But I also follow a lot of smaller people who are talking about plant consciousness, and I find that a very exciting topic. CM: Ooh. So what is plant consciousness? SB: Just the fact that they have consciousness. And that just because maybe they don’t have a face like we’re used to things that do, that we assign consciousness to ourselves, mammals that we comprehend, things like that, but that maybe consciousness is a much, much bigger, broader quality in the universe that is shared by perhaps a much wider range of life expressions than we might be used to thinking about. CM: Now, that is an expansive idea. SB: Expansive is my favorite word after possibility. CM: Well, Sarah, thank you so much for being a guest on Getting Work to Work. Hopefully we can connect again on this show just to see what’s new in your world, ’cause I think you’re gonna be one of those people who just, as you continue exploring and expanding your expansiveness, that there will always be something new to talk about. So thank you for being here. SB: Well, I would love that, and I really loved this conversation as well. Thank you so much.

Do you ever feel like you’re making the same mistakes over and over again? Yeah, me too. There are some parts of my life and work where curiosity and experimentation are endless, but when it comes to money, I’m stuck on a treadmill of feast and famine. I know enough of the lingo to talk a good game, but really, I’m still doing business like I did when I started 20 years ago. Underneath it all, I’m stuck in a shame spiral wondering if it will ever change. The truth is that something broke a long time ago and instead of fixing it, I kept repeating my mistakes making the break worse and worse. But as I watch my wife heal from a broken leg, it’s time for me to heal my own brokenness. Show Links Wisdom Takes Work: Learn. Apply. Repeat. by Ryan Holiday Shrinking (TV Series 2023–) Superagency: What Could Possibly Go Right with Our AI Future by Reid Hoffman and Greg Beato The Daring Creatives Episode photo from Envato Elements: broken glass, impact, overlay, realistic

What’s the first thing that comes to mind when you think about publicity? After I think about celebrities, perfume ads, TMZ, and shameless attention-seekers, I say, “I guess it’s not for me.” Thankfully, today’s guest is on the show to make me laugh and correct my thinking because PR is for everyone. KJ Blattenbauer is a publicist, author, and speaker who helps founders and experts move from overlooked to in-demand through credibility-driven visibility. In our conversation, she gives actionable steps on making sure your visibility is connected to your goals and your audience; it’s about service and storytelling. She also shares the importance of not giving up when someone says no, that all you need is a sprinkling of audacity to make a difference, why it doesn’t hurt to try something a million times, and why you can never have too much passion. Show Links Hearsay PR Pitchworthy: The No-Fluff Playbook to Publicity That Pays Off by KJ Blattenbauer Aaron Rodgers: Enigma (TV Series 2024) “Untold” – The Fall of Favre (TV Series 2025) I’m Chevy Chase and You’re Not (2025) Three Amigos! (1986) Tree Paine – Taylor Swift’s Publicist P.T. Barnum We Need Your Art: Stop Messing Around and Making Something by Amie McNee Threads