Heterodox Out Loud

What's actually wrong with the modern university? Today on Heterodox Out Loud, renowned legal scholar and public intellectual Cass Sunstein joins John Tomasi to examine one of the most important, and contentious, questions in higher education today. Drawing on his decades of experience at institutions including the University of Chicago and Harvard, Sunstein reflects on what universities get right, where they fall short, and why debates over viewpoint diversity have become so central to the future of academic life.

Is higher education losing public trust, and what can universities do about it? Today on Heterodox Out Loud, Sian Beilock, President of Dartmouth College, joins John Tomasi to confront one of the most urgent challenges facing universities today: a growing crisis of confidence among the American public. Drawing on her background in cognitive science and leadership under pressure, Beilock explains why trust is declining and what universities must do to restore it. From free expression policies and institutional neutrality to student culture and viewpoint diversity, this conversation explores how universities can return to their core mission: truth-seeking and education. Offering a unique, insider's view, the discussion explores how a university president manages the conflicting pressures of a polarized age. It delves into real-world scenarios, including campus protests, speech disruptions, faculty relationships, and external pressure from the government. In This Episode: 💥 Why 7 in 10 Americans distrust higher education 💥 The role of affordability, ROI, and ideological concerns 💥 How Dartmouth is implementing institutional restraint 💥 Where free speech ends and disruption begins 💥 Why students are hungry for real dialogue, not echo chambers 💥 What “viewpoint diversity” actually means in practice 💥 How universities can reform without political capture Whether you’re a student, faculty member, policymaker, or simply interested in the future of higher education, this episode offers a clear-eyed and principled roadmap forward. New Yorker Article About Sian Beilock: Sian Leah Beilock is the 19th president of Dartmouth College, an Ivy League institution and one of the nation’s leading research universities. She is the first woman elected president of Dartmouth by the Board of Trustees and began her tenure on June 12, 2023. A distinguished cognitive scientist, Beilock is one of the world’s foremost experts on performance under pressure, a member of the American Academy of Arts & Sciences and the National Academy of Medicine, and the recipient of the 2017 Troland Award from the National Academy of Sciences. She has authored over 120 peer-reviewed papers and two books: Choke and How the Body Knows Its Mind. Before Dartmouth, she served as president of Barnard College at Columbia University and as executive vice provost at the University of Chicago. Follow Heterodox Academy on:Twitter: https://bit.ly/3Fax5DyFacebook: https://bit.ly/3PMYxfwLinkedIn: https://bit.ly/48IYeuJInstagram: https://bit.ly/46HKfUgSubstack: https://bit.ly/48IhjNF 🔗 Find out more about Heterodox Academy at: https://linktr.ee/heterodoxoutloud

At a moment when higher education faces accelerating technological disruption and intensifying public scrutiny, Cornell Provost Kavita Bala argues that universities must do two things at once: defend their truth-seeking mission with renewed clarity, and reimagine how they teach, research, and engage society in an era shaped by AI, polarization, and declining trust.

What does it take to build a university where open inquiry is not just protected, but actively practiced? In this wide-ranging episode, University of Denver Chancellor Jeremy Haefner offers a rare, candid look at the challenges and opportunities of transforming campus culture in a polarized era. From institutional neutrality to civil discourse, from pluralism to DEI reform, Haefner shares how the University of Denver is attempting to lead higher education into its next chapter. Today, John Tomasi, President of Heterodox Academy, speaks with Haefner about DU’s ambitious initiatives aimed at strengthening the university’s core commitments to open inquiry, viewpoint diversity, and constructive disagreement. Haefner discusses the Denver Dialogues, a flagship program that brings scholars with divergent perspectives into sustained engagement with students; Debate Across the Curriculum, a faculty-led innovation that measurably shifts students’ readiness to engage across differences; and Spark Day, DU’s annual celebration of free expression and civil discourse. The conversation also probes deeply into Haefner’s decision to adopt a policy of institutional neutrality, the university’s response to the Trump Administration’s directives on DEI, and the complexities of balancing inclusion with the truth-seeking mission of the academy. Tune in to explore how universities can renew their mission, and why pluralism matters now more than ever. In This Episode:💥 Building a culture of open inquiry across an entire university.💥 The Denver Dialogues and pluralism-driven campus programming.💥 Evidence-based impacts of Debate Across the Curriculum.💥 Institutional neutrality and the Calvin Report tradition.💥 DEI reform and the challenge of aligning inclusion with open inquiry.💥 The launch of the National Academy for Free Expression and Pluralism. About Jeremy:Jeremy Haefner is the 19th Chancellor of the University of Denver, appointed to the role in 2019 after serving as the university’s provost and executive vice chancellor. He holds a PhD in mathematics from the University of Wisconsin–Madison, and began his academic career as a professor before moving into administrative leadership.Prior to joining DU, he served as provost and senior vice president for academic affairs at the Rochester Institute of Technology, and spent two decades at the University of Colorado–Colorado Springs in a variety of academic and administrative roles. His leadership work has included areas such as faculty development, research support, international education, and interdisciplinary program design.At the University of Denver, Haefner has overseen strategic efforts focused on academic transformation, civic engagement, student belonging, and the development of a comprehensive undergraduate experience. His tenure has included the launch of initiatives aimed at strengthening open inquiry and free expression on campus, alongside adjustments to institutional policy in response to changes in the legal and political landscape surrounding higher education.Follow Jeremy on X: https://x.com/DU_chancellor Follow Heterodox Academy on:Twitter: https://bit.ly/3Fax5DyFacebook: https://bit.ly/3PMYxfwLinkedIn: https://bit.ly/48IYeuJInstagram: https://bit.ly/46HKfUgSubstack: https://bit.ly/48IhjNF 🔗 Find out more about Heterodox Academy at: https://linktr.ee/heterodoxoutloud

Why does a self-described “gay, atheistic Jewish guy” argue that America needs more Christianity right now? In this thought-provoking episode, Jonathan Rauch, author, Brookings Institution senior fellow, and newly appointed board member of Heterodox Academy, joins host John Tomasi for an insightful discussion recorded in Washington, D.C. Jonathan reflects on his new book, Cross Purposes, a contrarian apology for the Christian values that once helped sustain both American self-government and its universities. Drawing from personal narratives, constitutional history, and contemporary social fractures, Rauch argues that the decline of robust, virtue-based Christianity and the politicization of faith have contributed to polarization, anxiety, and a crisis of institutional trust. Jonathan and John discuss Tocqueville’s analysis of individualism, the “God-shaped hole” now filled by less constructive substitutes, and what both faith and scholarship can contribute to a pluralistic republic. Join us for the conversation and explore practical and philosophical pathways to revive the transformative power of both religious and academic institutions. In This Episode:💥 Three core Christian virtues as a civic foundation💥 The perils of “thin,” “sharp,” and “thick” Christianity💥 Tocqueville, individualism, and the promise of civil society💥 The hollowing of purpose and scholarly virtue in higher education💥 Faith, viewpoint diversity, and restoring vibrant campus culture💥 Challenges and opportunities for self-reform in academia Read Jonathan’s latest book, Cross Purposes: https://a.co/d/dRaWsfLCheck out more about the Brookings Institution: https://www.brookings.edu/ About Jonathan:Jonathan Rauch is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and a contributing writer for The Atlantic, renowned for his incisive commentary on public policy, culture, and governance. He has authored several influential books, including The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth (2021), which delves into the challenges of disinformation and the importance of truth in democratic societies. His latest book, Cross Purposes: Christianity's Broken Bargain with Democracy (2025), examines the evolving relationship between American Christianity and liberal democracy, arguing that the decline of religious institutions has significant implications for democratic health. Rauch's extensive body of work reflects his commitment to exploring complex societal issues, making him a prominent voice in contemporary discussions on democracy, religion, and public discourse. In January 2025, Rauch was appointed to the Board of Directors of Heterodox Academy (HxA), Follow Jonathan on X: https://x.com/jon_rauch============================ Follow Heterodox Academy on:Twitter: https://bit.ly/3Fax5DyFacebook: https://bit.ly/3PMYxfwLinkedIn: https://bit.ly/48IYeuJInstagram: https://bit.ly/46HKfUgSubstack: https://bit.ly/48IhjNF 🔗 Find out more about Heterodox Academy at: https://linktr.ee/heterodoxoutloud

Can artificial intelligence transform how we navigate the most challenging dialogues on campus? Join us for a thought-provoking episode featuring philosopher and educator Simon Cullen, as he unveils his pioneering work at the intersection of education, technology, and constructive disagreement.In conversation with John Tomasi, Simon explores how open inquiry is both advanced and imperiled by disagreement, and describes his academic journey from Australia to Princeton and Carnegie Mellon. Central to the discussion is ‘Sway’ an AI-powered platform developed by Simon and his team to foster rigorous, evidence-based dialogue among students on controversial topics. Sway intelligently pairs students with opposing views and acts as a “guide on the side,” scaffolding reasoning, encouraging intellectual humility, and ensuring that exchanges remain constructive and charitable. Simon shares the empirical findings from thousands of Sway-mediated dialogues, where measurable increases in students’ openness, comfort, and analytical reasoning have been observed—even on divisive subjects like gender, immigration, and the Israel-Palestine conflict. In This Episode:💥 The pedagogical importance of constructive disagreement and argument visualization💥 The design and implementation of Sway: an AI tool for dialogue across differences💥 Empirical research on autonomy, self-censorship, and openness to opposing viewpoints💥 Strategies for motivating student engagement in difficult conversations💥 Scalable, evidence-based methods for promoting viewpoint diversity in higher education Want to experience Sway for yourself? You can instantly start a conversation—no account, no signup, no hassle. Just generate a link, share it with a friend (or a friendly opponent), and jump straight into a thoughtful dialogue.Read more about research findings and reportsExplore Simon’s Argument Mapping Tool: Mindmup.com About Simon:Simon Cullen is a faculty member, Dean's Innovation Scholar, and Artificial Intelligence and Education Fellow at Carnegie Mellon University. He developed the award-winning "Dangerous Ideas in Science and Society" course and serves as founding co-chair of CMU's Heterodox Community. Simon's innovative research combines philosophy, cognitive science, and educational technology to improve reasoning and communication across moral and political divides. He is the co-developer of "Sway,” a chat platform that uses AI to facilitate constructive dialogue between students with differing viewpoints. His research has been published in Science Advances, Nature Science of Learning, Cognition, and the Review of Philosophy and Psychology. He holds a Ph.D. from Princeton University and specializes in the psychology and pedagogy of reasoning, and evidence-based approaches to promoting open inquiry in higher education. Next year, Simon will be a Faculty Research Fellow at the Segal Center for Academic Pluralism in New York City.Learn more about Simon Follow Heterodox Academy on:Twitter: https://bit.ly/3Fax5DyFacebook: https://bit.ly/3PMYxfwLinkedIn: https://bit.ly/48IYeuJInstagram: https://bit.ly/46HKfUgSubstack: https://bit.ly/48IhjNF 🔗 Find out more about Heterodox Academy at: https://linktr.ee/heterodoxoutloud

How did America’s universities lose the trust of the public, and what will it take to restore faith in higher education? In this episode, we are joined by Benjamin and Jenna Storey, renowned scholars, co-authors, and directors at the American Enterprise Institute’s Program on the Future of the American University. Together with host John Tomasi, they undertake a searching examination of the forces eroding confidence in universities and offer a roadmap for rebuilding their legitimacy and civic purpose.The conversation draws on the Storeys’ personal journeys through academia, they explore how universities have shifted away from their civic mission, the implications of declining viewpoint diversity, and the urgent need to re-envision liberal education in a polarized era. Their discussion critically engages with recent initiatives, including the founding of university-level Schools of Civic Thought, and emphasizes both the perils and promise of institutional reform amidst increasing political and public scrutiny.Read the report: “Civic: A Proposal for University Level Civic Education” (AEI, December 2023) In This Episode:💥 The crisis of public trust and universities’ civic responsibilities💥 The decline of viewpoint and ideological diversity in academia💥 Innovative models for enhancing open inquiry and faculty diversity💥 The case for new academic structures—Schools of Civic Thought💥 Navigating political pressures and governmental reform efforts💥 The enduring value of liberal education and practical wisdom About Benjamin & Jenna:Benjamin Storey, Ph.D, is a senior fellow in Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI). He is concurrently a research fellow at the Civitas Institute at the University of Texas at Austin. At AEI, he focuses on the culture of higher education, the nature of liberal and civic education, and efforts to enhance viewpoint diversity on college and university campuses. He co-organizes AEI’s conference series on the Future of the American University and its workshop on the Conservative Intellectual Tradition for University Faculty.Jenna Silber Storey, Ph.D, is a senior fellow in the Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies department at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), where she concentrates on political philosophy, civil society, classical schools, and higher education. She is also the co-organizer of a conference series on the future of the American university. Dr. Storey is concurrently a research fellow at the Civitas Institute at the University of Texas at Austin, and a Tocqueville scholar at Furman University, where she was previously research professor, assistant professor in politics and international affairs, and the executive director of the Tocqueville Program.Dr. Storey is the coauthor, with her husband, Benjamin Storey, of Why We Are Restless: On the Modern Quest for Contentment (Princeton University Press, 2021). Together, the Storeys are working on a book titled The Art of Choosing: How Liberal Education Should Prepare You for Life. Follow Heterodox Academy on:Twitter: https://bit.ly/3Fax5DyFacebook: https://bit.ly/3PMYxfwLinkedIn: https://bit.ly/48IYeuJInstagram: https://bit.ly/46HKfUgSubstack: https://bit.ly/48IhjNF 🔗 Find out more about Heterodox Academy at: https://linktr.ee/heterodoxoutloud

What does it mean for a university to become a battleground against deep-seated prejudices and historical tensions? In today’s episode, we dive into these challenging questions with our distinguished guest, Cary Nelson, a celebrated scholar and ardent advocate for academic freedom.Nelson shares his insights on the intersection of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism in academia, a topic explored in his new book, "Mindless: What Happened to Universities?" The conversation examines how the lines between critique of Israel and hostility towards Jewish students blur, becoming toxic and divisive forces across campuses, from historical shifts that turned post-1948 anti-Zionism into a rejection of Israel's existence to the phenomenon of hatred and the campus protests that undermine foundational academic values. Nelson calls for reclaiming the core purpose of academia as a community of imperfect learners where dialogue and understanding prevail. In This Episode:Historical context of anti-Zionism and its transformation into anti-SemitismThe unique pressures faced by Jewish students on campusesThe role of social media in spreading campus protestsDistinctions between psychological and intellectual safety in AcademiaThe undermining of the university's role as a space for diverse perspectives About Cary:Cary Nelson is Jubilee Professor of Liberal Arts & Sciences Emeritus at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and an affiliated faculty member at the University of Haifa. He holds an honorary doctorate from Ben Gurion University of the Negev. Over his distinguished career, Nelson has authored or edited 36 books and published over 400 essays, focusing on modern poetry, critical theory, the politics of higher education, and issues related to antisemitism and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. From 2006 to 2012, he served as president of the American Association of University Professors (AAUP), advocating for academic freedom and shared governance. Nelson’s latest work, “Mindless: What Happened to Universities?”, published on March 6, 2025, examines how universities have deviated from their commitment to shared intellectual principles, leading to environments where extremism and intolerance can flourish. Follow Heterodox Academy on:Twitter: https://bit.ly/3Fax5DyFacebook: https://bit.ly/3PMYxfwLinkedIn: https://bit.ly/48IYeuJInstagram: https://bit.ly/46HKfUgSubstack: https://bit.ly/48IhjNF 🔗 Find out more about Heterodox Academy at: https://linktr.ee/heterodoxoutloud

What happens when mental health care becomes intertwined with prevailing political ideologies and biases? Today on Heterodox Out Loud, we’re joined by Andrew Hartz, president and founder of the Open Therapy Institute and a long-term member of Heterodox Academy. Andrew joins John Tomasi to explore the increasing prevalence of sociopolitical bias within the realm of mental health therapy. Andrew shares his motivations for founding the Open Therapy Institute, highlighting the concerning shifts in therapy practices caused by activist-oriented approaches and sociopolitical biases. He discusses the need for a more balanced, patient-centered therapeutic approach that respects diverse perspectives without conflating therapy with broader ideological battles. Andrew sheds light on the startling trend of therapists dismissing patients due to their political views and the broader issue of bias pervading mental health training and practice. In This Episode:The rise of sociopolitical bias in mental health therapyThe four levels of bias impacting therapistsThe incompatibility of patient-centered therapy with politically driven judgmentThe influence of activist-oriented norms in therapeutic contextsThe role and objectives of the Open Therapy InstituteViewpoint diversity and the challenges faced by conservative therapists For more insights and updates from the Open Therapy Institute, visit their website: https://www.opentherapyinstitute.org/ About Andrew:Andrew Hartz, Ph.D, is a practicing clinical psychologist. He was formerly a professor in the clinical psychology doctoral program at Long Island University, where he also completed his Ph.D. He completed his clinical internship at Columbia University Medical Center, and he also completed training at Mount Sinai Hospital and the William Alanson White Institute. For several years, he’s written about political issues and mental health for outlets such as the Wall Street Journal, City Journal, Discourse, the Federalist, Real Clear Education, Heterodox Academy, and the New York Post. Follow Andrew on X: https://x.com/Hartz_PhD Follow Heterodox Academy on:Twitter: https://bit.ly/3Fax5DyFacebook: https://bit.ly/3PMYxfwLinkedIn: https://bit.ly/48IYeuJInstagram: https://bit.ly/46HKfUgSubstack: https://bit.ly/48IhjNF 🔗 Find out more about Heterodox Academy at: https://linktr.ee/heterodoxoutloud

What happens when the principles of law clash with evolving ideologies in academia? Join us today as we delve into the transformative journey of legal education with Rebecca Roiphe, a lawyer, visiting fellow at the Siegel Center for Academic Pluralism, and author of the upcoming book, "The Devil's Advocate: How Law Schools Abandoned the Law."

How do schools navigate the complexities of inclusion, polarization, and freedom of expression while fostering a vibrant learning environment? Today, John Austin, Head of School at Deerfield Academy, joins Heterodox Out Loud to explore these questions and share insights from the groundbreaking report, Thriving in a World of Pluralistic Contention: A Framework for Schools.

What new vision can pluralism bring to today’s universities? Today, founder of Interfaith America Eboo Patel, joins John to discuss how pluralism can be a guiding principle in transforming higher education away from rigid ideological confines towards a more inclusive and dynamic intellectual space.

What happens when the guardians of cultural narratives and societal norms become inseparable from the very hierarchies they critique? Today, we explore the concept of "symbolic capitalists" with Musa al-Gharbi, author of We Have Never Been Woke: The Cultural Contradictions of a New Elite and assistant professor at the School of Communication and Journalism at Stony Brook University.