Homeschool Unrefined

Join us as Angela and Teresa Wiedrick dive into their thoughts on education! Teresa Wiedrick is an author, podcaster, and coach. She helps homeschool moms shed what's not working so they can stop pushing through and enjoy their homeschool again. Connect with Teresa! Capturing the Charmed Life We're here to show you how to: Identify learning opportunities in everything you do, how to celebrate your child's differences, and how to give yourself and your kids credit for all the things you're already doing. If you have felt unwelcome in other spaces, we hope you feel welcome here. You can now order our book! You can order "Think Differently About Learning: A Homeschool Where Children And Parents Thrive" from the following vendors, or wherever books are sold. Bookshop.org Amazon Barnes & Noble Every positive review we receive helps us reach more people so please consider leaving a review. Thank you! Connect with us! Visit our website and follow us on Instagram: @homeschoolunrefined. Follow Maren for ADD, homeschooling, and parent coaching: @alwayslearningwithmaren. Sign up for our newsletter and get our Top 100 Inclusive Book List. We are listener-supported! Support us on Patreon and get access to our special Q&P (Question and Process) episodes! Email us any questions or feedback at homeschoolunrefined@gmail.com.

Join us for this special bonus episode with Rachel Rainbolt where we explore the importance of seeing children as humans! Rachel Rainbolt is a therapist, coach, writer, educator, and host of the Sage Family Podcast. Connect with Rachel! Sage Family We're here to show you how to: Identify learning opportunities in everything you do, how to celebrate your child's differences, and how to give yourself and your kids credit for all the things you're already doing. If you have felt unwelcome in other spaces, we hope you feel welcome here. You can now order our book! You can order "Think Differently About Learning: A Homeschool Where Children And Parents Thrive" from the following vendors, or wherever books are sold. Bookshop.org Amazon Barnes & Noble Connect with us! Visit our website and follow us on Instagram: @homeschoolunrefined. Follow Maren for ADD, homeschooling, and parent coaching: @alwayslearningwithmaren. Sign up for our newsletter and get our Top 100 Inclusive Book List. We are listener-supported! Support us on Patreon and get access to our special Q&P (Question and Process) episodes! Email us any questions or feedback at homeschoolunrefined@gmail.com.

Join us for this special bonus episode with Julie Soul all about creativity and homeschool! Julie Soul is the host of the Creative Homeschool Podcast. She is also the founder of Soul Sparklettes Art and The Glitter Bomb®. Her mission is to inspire and empower anyone who teaches art to kids! Connect with Julie! Soul Sparklettes Art We're here to show you how to: Identify learning opportunities in everything you do, how to celebrate your child's differences, and how to give yourself and your kids credit for all the things you're already doing. If you have felt unwelcome in other spaces, we hope you feel welcome here. You can now order our book! You can order "Think Differently About Learning: A Homeschool Where Children And Parents Thrive" from the following vendors, or wherever books are sold. Bookshop.org Amazon Barnes & Noble Connect with us! Visit our website and follow us on Instagram: @homeschoolunrefined. Follow Maren for ADD, homeschooling, and parent coaching: @alwayslearningwithmaren. Sign up for our newsletter and get our Top 100 Inclusive Book List. We are listener-supported! Support us on Patreon and get access to our special Q&P (Question and Process) episodes! Email us any questions or feedback at homeschoolunrefined@gmail.com.

Join us as we discuss a challenging topic: When struggles happen! Let's get right to it! When struggles happen, it's usually because our kids aren't doing what we want them to do. Parents often have an agenda and kids often don't have that same agenda. There's a big difference between reacting vs responding and we discuss this in detail. We also dive into how the disparity between our priorities vs the needs of our children is often what creates struggles. We share our simple (but oh-so-effective!) strategy for responding to struggles when they arise. 3-Step Response Strategy Stop and take a break Take responsibility and get curious Co-create a plan together Using this 3-step response strategy and working through a struggle is often the best form of learning that our children can experience. Don't forget to celebrate working through a struggle together! This last season of our podcast is for homeschooling parents, traditional school parents, and everyone in between. This is our last season and definitely our best season! We're here to show you how to: Identify learning opportunities in everything you do, how to celebrate your child's differences, and how to give yourself and your kids credit for all the things you're already doing. If you have felt unwelcome in other spaces, we hope you feel welcome here. LTWs Angela: Beyond That, The Sea by Laura Spence-Ash ChatGPT told me I would like this and they were spot on! I listened to it and loved it. Maren: Ergonomic Kneeling Chair This takes the pressure off my lower back and hips while working at my computer! Also great for ADHD because I can rock. That small movement helps me focus! You can now pre-order our book! Our book will be released on June 18th! You can pre-order "Think Differently About Learning: A Homeschool Where Children And Parents Thrive" from the following vendors, or wherever books are sold. Bookshop.org Amazon Barnes & Noble Connect with us! Visit our website and follow us on Instagram: @homeschoolunrefined. Follow Maren for ADD, homeschooling, and parent coaching: @alwayslearningwithmaren. Sign up for our newsletter and get our Top 100 Inclusive Book List. We are listener-supported! Support us on Patreon and get access to our special Q&P (Question and Process) episodes! Email us any questions or feedback at homeschoolunrefined@gmail.com.

Join us as we discuss getting honest about socialization! This is a biggie! When people ask about socialization, they're usually wondering about one of the following: How will the homeschooled child spend time with other children? How will the homeschooled child learn to act appropriately in situations where other people are around? Will homeschooling turn a child into a weird, eccentric kid? We're here to validate any concerns you might have about socialization and help put your mind at ease. This last season of our podcast is for homeschooling parents, traditional school parents, and everyone in between. This is our last season and definitely our best season! We're here to show you how to: Identify learning opportunities in everything you do, how to celebrate your child's differences, and how to give yourself and your kids credit for all the things you're already doing. If you have felt unwelcome in other spaces, we hope you feel welcome here. LTWs Angela: Favorite New Summer T-shirt I've already stocked up for summer! Maren: HIdrate Spark Water Bottle If you've been around Homeschool Unrefined for a while, you know I've used this smart water bottle in the past! After several year's hiatus, I'm back. The new, updated water bottle is smarter, way easier to clean, and comes with a long-lasting, rechargeable base. It solves all the problems I had with their old bottle, and then some. I love the new tumbler model, which sits by my side all day long. You can now pre-order our book! Our book will be released on June 18th! You can pre-order "Think Differently About Learning: A Homeschool Where Children And Parents Thrive" from the following vendors, or wherever books are sold. Bookshop.org Amazon Barnes & Noble Connect with us! Visit our website and follow us on Instagram: @homeschoolunrefined. Follow Maren for ADD, homeschooling, and parent coaching: @alwayslearningwithmaren. Sign up for our newsletter and get our Top 100 Inclusive Book List. We are listener-supported! Support us on Patreon and get access to our special Q&P (Question and Process) episodes! Email us any questions or feedback at homeschoolunrefined@gmail.com.

Join us as we talk about reframing mental health! Caring for ourselves and teaching our children how to care for themselves is critical! In this episode, we talk about: A simple and effective general assessment to help you and your kids self-regulate during challenging times. The importance of knowing when you need a break and when you need a challenge. How to be proactive in talking with our kids about mental health. Advocating for our kids and knowing how best to support them. What to do when our kids are struggling. Note: The 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline is available 24 hours/day via call or text. This last season of our podcast is for homeschooling parents, traditional school parents, and everyone in between. This is our last season and definitely our best season! We're here to show you how to: Identify learning opportunities in everything you do, how to celebrate your child's differences, and how to give yourself and your kids credit for all the things you're already doing. If you have felt unwelcome in other spaces, we hope you feel welcome here. LTWs Maren: Hard Feelings Podcast with Jeannette McCurdy Angela: Stronger By the Day App Before the Barbell on IG You can now pre-order our book! Our book will be released on June 18th! You can pre-order "Think Differently About Learning: A Homeschool Where Children And Parents Thrive" from the following vendors, or wherever books are sold. Bookshop.org Amazon Barnes & Noble Connect with us! Visit our website and follow us on Instagram: @homeschoolunrefined. Follow Maren for ADD, homeschooling, and parent coaching: @alwayslearningwithmaren. Sign up for our newsletter and get our Top 100 Inclusive Book List. We are listener-supported! Support us on Patreon and get access to our special Q&P (Question and Process) episodes! Email us any questions or feedback at homeschoolunrefined@gmail.com.

Join us as we discuss 4 Homeschool Tentpoles! These tentpoles help hold up our homeschooling structure. They're like filters, helping us make decisions about what to prioritize and what to intentionally leave out. These are top-tier life skills and serve as a guide for our homeschool: Expansive thinking and inclusive practice Noticing the learning Rocking our strengths Critical thinking This last season of our podcast is for homeschooling parents, traditional school parents, and everyone in between. This is our last season and definitely our best season! We're here to show you how to: Identify learning opportunities in everything you do, how to celebrate your child's differences, and how to give yourself and your kids credit for all the things you're already doing. If you have felt unwelcome in other spaces, we hope you feel welcome here. LTWs Maren: She's Birdie Personal Safety Alarm Angela: Nature's Way CalmAid Lavender Softgels You can now pre-order our book! Our book will be released on June 18th! You can pre-order "Think Differently About Learning: A Homeschool Where Children And Parents Thrive" from the following vendors, or wherever books are sold. Bookshop.org Amazon Barnes & Noble Connect with us! Visit our website and follow us on Instagram: @homeschoolunrefined. Follow Maren for ADD, homeschooling, and parent coaching: @alwayslearningwithmaren. Sign up for our newsletter and get our Top 100 Inclusive Book List. We are listener-supported! Support us on Patreon and get access to our special Q&P (Question and Process) episodes! Email us any questions or feedback at homeschoolunrefined@gmail.com.

Join us as we talk about all things you should give yourself permission to do in homeschool - change, quit, protect, trust, and say yes. Fall 2022 Season Sponsors We are so grateful to our Fall 2022 Season Sponsors. Use the links below for their special offerings: Blossom & Root and use code HSUnrefined15 for 15% off your purchase Outschool and use code Unrefined for $20 off your first class Night Zookeeper for a 7-day, risk-free trial, as well as 50% off an annual subscription LTWs Maren: Love Hard Angela: Glass Onion: A Knives Out Mystery Connect with us! Visit our website Sign up for our newsletter and get our Top 100 Inclusive Book List We are listener supported! Support us on Patreon Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and see video episodes now on Youtube Angela on Instagram: @unrefinedangela | Maren on Instagram: @unrefinedmaren and @alwayslearningwithmaren Email us any questions or feedback at homeschoolunrefined@gmail.com Complete Episode Transcript [00:00:09] Maren: hi, we're Mar and Angela of homeschool, unrefined. Over the past 25 years, we've been friends, teachers, homeschool parents and podcasters, together with our master's degrees and 20 years combined homeschooling. We're here to rethink homeschooling, learning, and education with an inclusive and authentic [00:00:28] Angela: lens. [00:00:30] At Homeschool, unrefined, we prioritize things like giving yourself credit, building strong connections, respectful parenting, interest led playing and learning, learning differences, mental health, self care, and listening to and elevating LGBTQ plus and BI voices. [00:00:48] Maren: We are here to encourage and support you. [00:00:51] Whether you're a new homeschooler, a veteran, you love curriculum, you're an unschooler. Whether all your kids are at home or all your kids are [00:01:00] at school or somewhere in between. Wherever you are on your journey, we are the voice in your head telling you, you're doing great, and so are your [00:01:07] Angela: kids. This is episode 2 0 2. [00:01:11] You don't need our permission, but we are gonna talk about five things we should always allow ourselves to do, and then we are gonna end like we always do with our lt. Ws Loving this week. And before we get started, we wanted to let you know if you are listening to this the day it comes out on Monday, then tomorrow, December. [00:01:33] Sixth, we are going to be having our class in Patreon that's gonna be all about how to take a winter break. Mm-hmm. . And that is gonna be at one o'clock central. We'd love to have you there. It's gonna be informal. There's gonna be 30 minutes of us talking live, and then there's gonna be 15 minutes of q and a. [00:01:52] So if you'd like to join us, you can go to pat our Patreon links in the show notes and get set up there. [00:01:57] Maren: Yes. [00:01:59] All [00:02:00] of my kids' favorite classes they've taken have been from out school, which is one of the reasons we're thrilled to have them as a sponsor. We know that kids who love to learn don't just prepare for the future. [00:02:11] They create it. That's why Out School has reimagined online learning to empower kids and teens to expand their creativity, wonder and knowledge. Empathetic, passionate teachers encourage learners ages three to 18 to explore their. Connect with diverse peers from around the world and take an active role in leading their learning out. [00:02:33] School has created a world filled with endless possibilities for every schooling journey. [00:02:38] Explore over 140,000 fun and flexible live online classes to find the right fit for your family and join us as we set learning free. Sign up today at Out schooler.me/homeschool unrefined, and get up to $20 off your first class when you enroll [00:02:56] Angela: with the code on. We [00:03:00] love when companies try to teach subjects in new and innovative ways, and that's why we're so excited to introduce you to Night Zookeeper. [00:03:08] Is your child a reluctant writer? Do they struggle with reading? If your answer to either of these questions is yes, then night zookeeper may just be what you're looking for. Night Zookeeper is an online learning program for children, ages six to 12 years old that uses a gamified and creative approach to help keep kids engaged and focused on developing awesome reading and writing skills all while having fun at the same time. [00:03:31] Some of the features we love include the educational games, the personalized feedback on writing from real tutors and the super safe community pages where children can work with each other and learn. If Night Zookeeper sounds like the perfect learning program for your child, you can try it for free by clicking on the link in the show notes. [00:03:50] When you register, they'll get a seven day risk free trial as well as a huge 50% off an annual subscription. That is a great deal if you ask me. [00:03:59] Maren: [00:04:00] My family has spent so many hours outside and learning about life. If this sounds like your family, you might like Blossom and Root. Blossom and Root is a nature focused secular homeschool curriculum focusing on creativity, science, nature, literature, and the arts. [00:04:18] Blossom and Root has been gently encouraging and supporting homeschooling families around the globe since 2016. Blossom and Root currently offers curricula for pre-K through fifth grade with new levels being added in the future. Additionally, a three volume inclusive US history curriculum told from a variety of viewpoints is currently in development as of August, 2022. [00:04:43] Volume one is available for purchase and volume two is available for presale all profits from this history curriculum. A River of voices will be used to support storytellers and artists from historically excluded communities. [00:04:57] You can find samples, scope, and [00:05:00] sequences and information about each of their levels online@blossomandroute.com. You can also find them on Instagram at Blossom and Route. Blossom and has created a special discount for our listeners. Use the code Hs. Unrefined 15 at checkout for 15% [00:05:18] Angela: off your purchase. All right, well, today we are talking about permission and how you don't actually need our permission to do some of the things we're gonna talk about, but we think we have a five different categories of things. [00:05:31] We think that you should allow yourself the permission to. Do when you're homeschooling. Exactly. [00:05:38] Maren: These are things we wanna actually normalize. I think that was like our alternative title, like let's normalize these things, make them so that we don't even have to [00:05:47] Angela: feel like we have to give ourselves permission. [00:05:51] Mm-hmm. , it's just something we do. It's normal. Well, I think like a lot of times the pressures of whatever, you know, the outside world. Yes. [00:06:00] Also, like the pressures you place on yourself mm-hmm. Can be can really like, weigh on you as you are thinking about some of these things. [00:06:08] Maren: Yes. I do think we as homeschoolers often already feel like we're kind of outside of the norm a little bit. Yeah, right. We've, we've, we say this a lot on our podcast, like we have done something kind of going against green homeschooling, . Yeah. It's different, right? [00:06:25] And so sometimes we do feel like, well, we can't go way out. Let's not go [00:06:30] Angela: way out there and do something even. There still has to be some standards. [00:06:33] Maren: We have to have standards. And so let's do the standards that, you know, some of the standards that everybody else does too, right? Like it just feels a little safer. [00:06:41] It feels like it's socially acceptable and so, which is great. I, and I actually think that's okay to do that sometimes too. But I also want [00:06:51] Angela: us [00:06:52] Maren: to. Utilize the freedom we have in, you know, homeschoolers. We get to make decisions. The [00:07:00] reason a lot of times the reason why we, you know, decide to homeschool is so that we can make different choices for our family and we can do things that are healthier and better for our kids [00:07:10] Angela: and for us, more [00:07:12] Maren: personalized. [00:07:13] More personalized mm-hmm. . And yet we sometimes then shrug those choices off because it feels too much at that moment. [00:07:19] Angela: Yes. Yes, definitely. So this, you know, this, we're doing this episode intentionally at the beginning of December because, you know, we're like three months into a school year here. Most of us are taking a holiday break coming up or a winter break. [00:07:34] And so you know, we're thinking about some of these things, but we wanna make sure, you know, if you listen to this in May or February or October, it still applies. Yes, because again, you don't need our permission, but we're telling you that you can do these things. You, you should allow yourself the permission to do these things anytime, [00:07:52] Maren: anytime, anytime. [00:07:54] And, and it's important to think about them anytime, not just during a holiday or a, [00:08:00] you know. You know, a time off or something. Right? Right. It's important to like continue to, this is a living thing, . [00:08:07] Angela: Right. Okay. So the first thing that we wanna give you or that you should give yourself permission to do is change. [00:08:13] And that can be a lot of different things. You can change how you school. You, you are allowed to do this. You are allowed to change the big picture things like going from homeschool to online school. You are allowed to put your kids in online school. Maybe homeschool just isn't working for you right now, or you need a little bit more support or a little bit more guidance. [00:08:33] It is okay to do that. It is also okay to switch from switch in the opposite direction. It is okay. If you are doing online school, it's not working, it's okay to switch to homeschool. It's okay to also put your kids in school. It's okay to also pull your kids from school. Yes, you can. You can do that anytime you feel like it's the right thing [00:08:55] Maren: to do. [00:08:56] And change what's right for each kid. Maybe. I know it's, for me, [00:09:00] I really value making my life easier and I, my goal has always been we're all doing the same thing because when we're all doing the same thing, then I don't have to drive four kids to four [00:09:13] Angela: different places or whatever. But realistically, [00:09:15] Maren: my kids all have different needs. [00:09:17] Mm-hmm. . And so I, we have made changes to Yes. Logistically it's a little bit trickier for us to get to different places. But it is so much [00:09:27] Angela: better for [00:09:28] Maren: everyone, for the whole family when we're all in the place and, and doing the learning [00:09:35] Angela: that works best for all. Right. So you made changes. Yes. And I think that's pretty common. [00:09:42] I would say like when your kids are younger, it's easier for you to do things altogether or all the same. Mm-hmm. . And then as they get older and their specific styles and needs emerge. Right. And, and desires. Like we want to accommodate [00:10:00] that. So that makes sense. [00:10:01] Maren: And even within homeschool, maybe you need to switch co-op. [00:10:05] Fine. It's okay to do that. It's great. I mean, you're, I don't ever think of change as, as negative. It's like you're getting closer and closer to the, you know, you're, you're moving in the right direction. Yeah. You [00:10:19] Angela: know more, now you know more, more about your child and what works or doesn't work in this season or forever, whatever. [00:10:26] And so it is good. It's a change is a. Right. Or maybe you're switching [00:10:31] Maren: from, [00:10:31] More of a, an unschool approach to more direct teaching approach or something like that. Maybe that is just what's right for you or vice versa. Mm-hmm. , you're going to more unschooling because that's how it's working for you right now. [00:10:45] I think that's great. And then also we need to just consider. What's the style that fits your child's needs the most? Mm-hmm. , and this can change over time too, as our kids mature, as their needs change as their interests change as their, as [00:11:00] they are a learning about themselves and, and, you know, in homeschool, you, they really do get to know themselves very well. [00:11:08] They're able to do that. And, and when they're able to verbalize that and. When you know more, you do the thing that works best then, right? And so, right. [00:11:19] Angela: So what is your kid really into, like what are they, what do they do in their free time? What it really excites them? You could just do more of that, right? [00:11:27] If that's, if that what, if that's what would make things like come alive for them. You should allow yourself to do [00:11:34] Maren: that. Right, right, right. And the style, you know, and when I say style, I don't always even mean you know, Active versus, you know, sitting at a table. It could also just be like your child listens to audiobooks or, you know, reads more audio audiobooks than ires. [00:11:53] Mm-hmm. great. Like pick up on that. And, and you can do more of the out your child does [00:12:00] math better on an app? Mm-hmm. than sitting at, you know, doing a book. Great. Mm-hmm. awesome. Pick up on that. My child loves to bake. We spent hours in the kitchen. Mm-hmm. still do . And so I think that that is, that's all learning and that can change. [00:12:19] Like you can make more time [00:12:20] Angela: for that. For sure. Yep. And maybe you have learned that you need to either get out of the house more mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. And go on more adventures. Or maybe you've learned definitely that you've been outta the house too much and you need more time at home. You are allowed to like make your schedule, make your routines right to fit what works for you. [00:12:40] And it's okay to do that mid-year or mm-hmm. a month into the school year or whatever it, you don't have to. Yes. Like stick with something that's not working. [00:12:49] Maren: Exactly. Exactly. Yep. All right. Let's move on to number two. Number two is you can give yourself permission to quit. Yes. Quit a variety of things and in a [00:13:00] variety of ways. [00:13:00] You can quit permanently. Something this is, this is just not for me. It's not happening, not for my kids. You can also quit. So, Indefinitely until we're ready, . Yeah. Yeah. Until we're ready to come back, we're quitting. Mm-hmm. . Yep. [00:13:17] Angela: So I feel like this right now, like we said at the beginning of December, so I'm sure you're thinking of a break probably. [00:13:23] Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And, you know, you might be thinking, yeah, we're taking two weeks off, we're taking three weeks off, we're taking a month off. You can, you should allow yourself to do that. You could also allow yourself to, you know, not come back till the end of January. Or whatever works for your family. [00:13:38] However much time you think everyone needs, you are not bound to this outside culture schedule. Yes. That everyone else is bound to . You know, maybe you want to do lots of out outdoor activities right now. That's fine. You can take the time to do that and then come back later for some more structure that you might, yes. [00:13:57] Yep. Yep. If you want that. [00:14:00] [00:14:00] Maren: And quitting I think has a bad. It does. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . It feels like a fail, like failing sometimes in some ways, or it's been deemed that way [00:14:12] Angela: by many people. Just never quitting. Never quitting is a thing. [00:14:15] Maren: Never quit. You need to get rid of that. Right, right. Well, my kids need to learn persistence and how to, you know, work through something hard, which is true. [00:14:22] We get, you know, totally understand that. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . And then also there is this, these skills in quitting. Mm-hmm. , like understanding yourself and listening to what you. Making a plan to quit. Like you don't, maybe you don't quit cold Turkey. Like right now, we're not, we're just [00:14:35] Angela: with this, you know, maybe we finish out the semester Yes. [00:14:40] Piano lessons because we've already committed and paid mm-hmm. , but we know at the end of December we're gonna take a break. [00:14:47] Maren: Yep. And Okay. I'm just gonna hear, I'm just gonna tell you a quick personal story. I won't get too detailed, but like, one of my, one of my kids just quit a sport and it was it was, it was really apparent led for a long time. [00:14:59] [00:15:00] Like we were, we were just like so excited for this child to like, join anything. And so we kind of coaxed them into it. They got, they got kinda [00:15:07] Angela: excited for a while. Yep. Yep. [00:15:10] Maren: And then you know, mid-semester, so it wasn't even at the end of anything. But it was just, we could tell it was just not worth the fight anymore. [00:15:20] Mm. It's just not worth the fight. And this child was communicating so well to us why this wasn't working for them. Mm. Yeah. And while we tried to stick it out to the end of the semester, it really didn't, like, the cus benefit wasn't, it just wasn't. Yeah, it wasn't worth it for us. And so we made the decision to stop mid-semester gasp. [00:15:42] I know, but it was the right thing. Yeah. For this child and [00:15:46] Angela: for our family really. I like when you talked about cost benefit. I mean, I don't love that necessarily terminology, but I like that you're saying like, what, what is the cost here for us? Yeah. You know, this child's unhappiness are having to drag them out of [00:16:00] the. [00:16:00] Yeah. Our fighting relationship, [00:16:02] Maren: right. It was causing anxiety to, and it wasn't the kind of anxiety that like, oh, if I overcome this, it's gonna feel so good. It was, if I overcome this, I'm just gonna be bitter at my parents a little bit. Yeah. And we were like, no, this is not worth it. That's actually counterproductive to what we're actually trying to, for sure. [00:16:22] So, [00:16:24] Angela: So good job. Thank you. Okay. Our next category or I don't know, next thing. Mm-hmm. is protect. Our next word is protect. Mm-hmm. , something that you are allowed to do is protect your child's free time. Mm. Mm-hmm. and or screen time . Yes. I think. Coming into winter. We're in winter in North America. [00:16:44] Right. So like coming into winter is a time I think when we instinctually just need a lot of downtime. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. At least I do. Okay. [00:16:54] Maren: Especially in northern in the Northern [00:16:57] Angela: states as I'm watching it. [00:17:00] Snow immensely outside right now. That's all I can think about. [00:17:03] Maren: like I just wanna hibernate. Yes. [00:17:05] Angela: I wanna hibernate. [00:17:06] Yes. And I feel like, so. We are not good at, and I say we like the collective we, and I'm talking about me as well. Mm-hmm. not good at is protecting my kids free time and downtime. Yeah. And I think that is so important and I wish I had done a better job of that when my kids were little. I did get better as they got older. [00:17:23] Oh yeah. But I think that downtime where their minds can wander, they can do the thing they're excited about, they can have a chance to explore new things that they maybe don't know if they're interested in. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. that only happens with. Huge blocks of free time. That's so true. You are allowed to protect that for your child and not cram in all the different subjects. [00:17:47] Exactly. Because are all those different subjects more important than free time? I don't know. I don't think so. Right. And are [00:17:53] Maren: they actually getting learned when you're cramming them in anyway? Yeah. Is the learning actually happening? Mm-hmm. , you're [00:18:00] getting things done. But that does not guarantee any sort of like internal long term learning. [00:18:10] Angela: You're not. That's how I remember a an episode we did like three years ago or four years ago, I don't remember, was about like how we don't choose what our kids. Yes. Make meaning out of or like Yes. Yes. Like we can put the information in front of them. Yep. But we don't get to decide like what stays in their head or what they choose to make meaning from. [00:18:29] Right. That's like something that they're doing or something that happens within them. So just because you're cramming in six subjects or whatever, I'm, I'm not saying you're doing that, that's extreme, but whatever. That doesn't mean that they're learning all of that, but exactly what they're, they are learning when they're at, when they're, when they have. [00:18:46] They are learning because they're choosing what they're doing. They're excited about it, they're into it. They're motivated by it. We know for sure that they're learning that. [00:18:57] Maren: Yep. They, it's the best kind of learning and yeah, it's [00:19:00] the most internal learning and long-term learning. And the only part of that that's tough for parents is that you probably aren't choosing the topic. [00:19:11] But let me tell you, so. Let me give you a peace of mind here. It's not always about the topic. , when it comes to learning the topic is almost irrelevant. It's the practice of learning. The habit of thinking. Mm-hmm. that is happening. Mm-hmm. during that free time. Mm-hmm. , it's the processing. Mm-hmm. , they are learning how to learn. [00:19:35] Mm-hmm. and they are loving it. So they're associating learning. Positive vibes. Positive feelings, for sure. For sure. And so they are going to continue that habit. Mm-hmm. of learning, of asking questions, of figuring out the answer. All these things, they are going to keep doing that the, their rest of their lives. [00:19:56] Mm-hmm. , if they have that time to do it now and they're having [00:20:00] positive experiences. Yes. So give yourself all the credit for all the learning you're you and your kids are doing in their [00:20:08] Angela: free time. Give your kids all the credit. . Yeah. Yeah. I also, I know we briefly touched on it, I wanna say protect screen time and mm-hmm. [00:20:16] I know this is controversial, but I'm just gonna say like, I think. A lot of screen time is really, really valuable and really important. My kids learn a lot through screen time. Mm-hmm. now my kids are older, but I have to say, like my son, for example watches a lot of YouTube videos that are about, I don't even know the category. [00:20:35] Geography. Yeah. Yeah. I think geography. Yes. And like politics happening within the different, like Oh totally. Countries or whatever. This is what he does for hours. He does this for hours. That's amazing because I love to see it. I'm like, yes, yes, yes, you should do that. I am doing it wanting to squander that at all. [00:20:55] Cuz he is deep diving into a subject that is interesting to him and he is learning a [00:21:00] lot by doing those deep dives. Right. I have to [00:21:02] Maren: say my son is doing the same thing really about you. Oh, okay. We should talk about that together. Yeah. Two of 'em, because they probably love to talk about that, so, yeah. [00:21:12] That's great. Yeah. And, and they can, you know, watch YouTube videos together. I think that's so, so great. [00:21:19] Angela: Yeah. I mean, and I do not wanna stop that. I do not wanna put a limit on that and say, oh, you need to turn that up. I know sometimes we need to, but I like, I know that his excitement and passion for this is so great right now. [00:21:32] Yes. And I am not stopping. Totally. [00:21:34] Maren: I also, I wanna piggyback on that. My oldest is learning all about the history of Iran right now. All on her, all on her own, and the, and all of the, the, just the you know, women's rights and all that stuff, just. Just doing all the research all the time on that and comes to us and tells us all these facts and things, and I'm like, that's amazing. [00:21:57] Had we [00:21:57] Angela: limited [00:21:59] Maren: mm-hmm. That [00:22:00] time, it just wouldn't happen. So, you know, it's just amazing. And then I have one child who's just doing art all the time. Mm-hmm. on their screen, on their iPad, just it's art. It's this art app. Pen, you [00:22:12] Angela: know, like [00:22:13] Maren: a mm-hmm. . Yeah. So it's, and it's amazing stuff. It's like amazing stuff. [00:22:19] Yeah. And I just think, well, why, [00:22:21] Angela: why would I like squander that, [00:22:22] Maren: that mm-hmm. excitement for that thing, so. All right. Number four is trust. Trust your gut. Trust your gut on things. Mm-hmm. Trust [00:22:31] Angela: yourself. Mm-hmm. and trust your. Say too. Yes. Yeah. You are allowed to do that because you know, like we always say, you know, you yourself and your family the best, right? [00:22:41] Mm-hmm. , and we know as parents, you have a gut feeling of if a thing is working or not. If we need to do more of something, if we need to do less of something, if we should change something up, like where's the. The excitement for our kids, and you know that, you know that better than any expert, right? Or, you know, grandparent or like friend [00:23:00] who's a teacher. [00:23:00] You, you know that for your kids and your family. You need to trust that. [00:23:05] Maren: Yes, and I think there is like a good. I think it's great to do a little research if you need to or whatever, do what you need to do, but also don't overdo that. Like I think about it when, you know when our kids are sick or something and then we Google something and then, you know, suddenly we think they, you know, have a terminal illness or something because of the Google results. [00:23:24] Yeah, yeah. It just brings us to this very scary place when really our gut instincts is like, you know, I should just, you know, sometimes we have to just listen to our gut and be like, I should just. My child to the doctor or not. Yeah. What it's usually the right thing. Whatever your gut is about that is probably the right thing. [00:23:43] Bring to the doctor or don't, or whatever, you know? Mm-hmm. . And I think, I think it, it's the same thing with homeschooling. Like, just trust your gut. What do you, what do you see and notice and experience with your kids? [00:23:56] Angela: Mm-hmm. , you have so much [00:23:58] Maren: information [00:24:00] that is intangible that nobody [00:24:02] Angela: else will be able [00:24:04] Maren: to. [00:24:05] Will never know those things. Mm-hmm. and only you do . [00:24:09] Angela: Yeah. Trust it for sure. I love that. Mm-hmm. . Okay. Our last one is say yes, you have permission to say yes. I think a lot of times us included talk about saying no and taking stuff off of our plate. And we also want to tell you that you are allowed to add more things or say yes more often when your kids are asking you to, if that is what you want to do. [00:24:35] And if that works for you, you are allowed to do that. You're allowed to. You know, have a fun adventure. One day you're allowed to have a mental health day. You know, you're allowed to play games together that day. You're allowed to do whatever it is that is going to bring joy to your homeschool. [00:24:56] You're allowed to do that. You're allowed to go off for ice cream. You're allowed to get coffee in the morning. [00:25:00] Whatever you need to inject a little passion is what you should. [00:25:05] Maren: Yes. Exactly. And a lot of times your kids will be the ones to let you know. There's something like, mom, can we do this today? [00:25:14] Mm-hmm. , I mean, I would listen to that. Mm-hmm. , maybe it's not a yes, but maybe there's something that you can, that you can say yes to around that. Mm-hmm. . But it might just be a little indicator that there's something that you could do. Yeah. For sure. [00:25:28] Angela: All right. All right. We hope that was, That was kind of, this is like our favorite thing to talk about. [00:25:35] Yeah. We, we could talk forever. We had to coach ourselves to not talk so much. So. Yep. Exactly. Hope that was helpful for you. All right, let's move on to our loving this week. Okay. Marron what? Loving this week. All right. [00:25:48] Maren: I'm loving a movie. It actually came out last. Holiday season, it's called Love Hard. [00:25:54] Okay. It's on Netflix. It is a pretty cheesy romcom, [00:26:00] actually but it is just, it's just such a great movie to sit down, curl up the blanket and enjoy brainless, basically. But it's so much fun, you know, it's like you don't have to think about it at all. You can just like eat it up like candy. [00:26:15] Angela: Mm-hmm. . So this is about, I'm trying to remember, cause I did watch this last year and I loved it. [00:26:20] So if you're looking for a good holiday flick, this could be Yes. The, you know, like comfort flick you wanted? Yes. It, it [00:26:28] Maren: just says it's an la Okay. I'll just read it quick. An LA girl, this is from imdb.com. An LA girl, unlucky in Love falls for an East coast guy on a dating app. Yeah. And decides to surprise him for the holidays. [00:26:40] Only to discover that she's [00:26:42] Angela: been catfished. Yeah, she catfishing. Ok. Yeah. [00:26:46] Maren: Yes. So it's very lighthearted and fun. And actually I just, I enjoyed it probably more this year than I did last year. I watched it again. Awesome. And I watched it with some of my kids. It does say TV A but [00:27:00] I would say it's probably more like PG 13, to be honest. [00:27:03] Yeah. [00:27:03] Angela: It's like a PG 13. That's what it feels like to me. Yeah. There's no like, [00:27:07] Maren: No rated R stuff. No, I wouldn't, I don't think so. There's probably some swearing I would [00:27:12] get. [00:27:12] Angela: I think that's what it's, yeah. Yes. Alright. Thanks for sharing that. All right, Angela, what do you loving this week? I also have a movie, . Okay, great. Love it. This is called Glass Onion, A Knives Out story. Yay. [00:27:26] Yay. So this is basically knives. If you saw knives Out. Wow. Like two years ago, [00:27:32] Maren: Martin, was that two? Oh, you know it's been three. It's been three. It was 2019. Wow. [00:27:37] Angela: Yeah. Okay. Well if you haven't seen the first Knives out, you should definitely see that this is the second Knives out. We sat in the theater with family. [00:27:44] This is perfect. If you have, I would say teens or even. Between and up. Because it's like, it's a murder mystery, right? That's what it is. Mm-hmm. . But it's done in this a really fun, in innovative new way. It's also, okay. So [00:28:00] there's the only continuing character from the first Knives out movie is the Detective Daniel Craig. [00:28:06] He's the same. Okay. Otherwise they have a whole new cast of characters. Wow. And they're all. People, you know. Oh, you know, all kind of coming together. Playing kinda [00:28:16] Maren: the last one [00:28:16] Angela: too. A new funny. Yeah. These funny characters. These like unique characters. This Kate Hudson and Oh, fun. Yeah. You know, . Okay, I should have looked this up. [00:28:26] You know, the guy from Hamilton, the good singer. Okay. You [00:28:30] Maren: know? Yes. Okay. I'm gonna look it up. Oh, Janelle, Moe. Yeah. Is in here. Leslie Oum Jr. [00:28:37] Angela: Leslie oum Jr. [00:28:38] Thank you. Like I knew it term with an L. Yep. Okay. Anyway, and what I liked about it, which I think like could have been done poorly, but they did it right, was they talked about the pandemic. It's like said in the pandemic. That's great. And so there's like funny references to it that we can laugh about a little bit, little bit. [00:28:59] Right. Like [00:28:59] Maren: [00:29:00] fun. Yes, exactly. And we can process through it. Yes. [00:29:02] Angela: Yes. . So I actually, I liked that it was like, it was good to see that . Okay, great. So I think I think it's just a good time. And I heard it's coming to Netflix in like a few weeks [00:29:13] Maren: very soon. Yeah. It was just out in theaters for a short time, so I'm glad you got to see it. [00:29:17] We really wanted to, but it didn't work out. So I'm really looking forward to this. [00:29:21] Angela: All right. Thank you everybody for being here. [00:29:23] Thank you to our three sponsors, blossom and Ru Out School and Night Zoo Zookeeper. Be sure to check out their links in our show notes. [00:29:31] Maren: This podcast is created and hosted by Angela Sizer and Marrin Goerss. . We are listeners supported to get extra content and the Back to School Summit free with your membership. Go to patreon.com/homeschool unrefined. Subscribe to our newsletter and get our free top 100 inclusive booklist@homeschoolunrefined.com slash new. [00:29:55] You can find Mar on Instagram at unrefined and at Always [00:30:00] Learning with Mar. Find Angela at Unrefined. Angela. [00:30:04]

Join us as we talk all about outsourcing in our homeschools with Amir Nathoo, CEO of Outschool. Fall 2022 Season Sponsors We are so grateful to our Fall 2022 Season Sponsors. Use the links below for their special offerings: Blossom & Root and use code HSUnrefined15 for 15% off your purchase Outschool and use code Unrefined for $20 off your first class Night Zookeeper for a 7-day, risk-free trial, as well as 50% off an annual subscription LTWs Maren: Hex Performance Laundry Detergent Angela: Love Is Blind, Season 3 Connect with us! Visit our website Sign up for our newsletter and get our Top 100 Inclusive Book List We are listener supported! Support us on Patreon Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and see video episodes now on Youtube Angela on Instagram: @unrefinedangela | Maren on Instagram: @unrefinedmaren and @alwayslearningwithmaren Email us any questions or feedback at homeschoolunrefined@gmail.com Complete Episode Transcript [00:00:10] Angela: Hi, we're Maren and Angela of homeschool, Unrefined. Over the past 25 years, we've been friends, teachers, homeschool parents and podcasters, together with our master's degrees and 20 years combined homeschooling. We're here to rethink homeschooling, learning, and education with an inclusive and authentic lens. [00:00:29] Maren: At Homeschool Unrefined, we prioritize things like giving yourself credit, building strong connections, respectful parenting, interest led playing and learning, learning differences, mental health, self care, and listening to and elevating LGBTQ plus and [00:00:44] Angela: bipo voices. We are here to encourage and support you. [00:00:48] Whether you're a new homeschooler, a veteran, you love curriculum, you're an unschooler. Whether all your kids are at home or all your kids are in school, or somewhere in between. Wherever you are in your [00:01:00] journey, we're the voice in your head telling you, you're doing great, and so are your kids. Please excuse our voices [00:01:06] Maren: today as we, both Angela and I both have colds that we are recovering from. [00:01:10] We're getting over it, but it's they're lingering . Yeah, for sure. We're gonna make it through. But this episode is bonus episode 200, Outsourcing with Amir Ou and we'll talk all about our favorite way to outsource and then we're gonna end like we always do with our lt. Ws loving this. [00:01:29] We know [00:01:30] Angela: teaching reading and writing can be a challenge. [00:01:32] That's why we are excited to introduce you to Night Zookeeper. Is your child a reluctant writer? Do they struggle with reading? If your answer to either of these questions is yes, the Night Zookeeper may just be what you've been looking for. Night Zookeeper is an online learning program for children, ages six to 12 years old that uses a gamified and creative approach to help keep kids engaged and focused on develop. [00:01:55] Awesome reading and writing skills all while having fun at the same [00:02:00] time. Some of the features we love include the educational games, the personalized feedback on writing from real tutors and the super safe community pages where children can work with each other and learn together. If Night Zookeeper sounds like the perfect learning program for your child, you can try it for free by clicking on the link in the show notes. [00:02:18] When you register, you'll get a seven day risk free trial as well as a huge 50% off an annual subscription. That's a great deal [00:02:25] Maren: if you ask me. Did you know my family spent a year traveling around the United States? Yep. I, and I wish I would've known about Blossom and Root back then. Blossom and Root is a nature focused secular homeschool curriculum focusing on creativity, science, nature, literature, and the arts. [00:02:46] Boston Root has been gently encouraging in supporting homeschool families around the globe since 2016. Blossom and Root currently offers curricula for pre-K through fifth grade with new levels being added [00:03:00] in the future. Additionally, a three volume inclusive history curriculum told from a variety of viewpoints is currently in development as of August, 2022. [00:03:11] Volume one is available for purchase, and volume two is available on pre. All profits from this history curriculum. A river of voices will be used to support storytellers and artists from historically excluded communities. You can find samples, scope, and sequence. And information about each of their levels online at www.blossomandroot.com. [00:03:35] You can also find them on Instagram at Blossom and Root. Blossom and Root has created a special discount for our listeners. Use the code Hs. Unrefined 15 at checkout for 15% [00:03:48] Angela: off your purchase. My kids have taken a variety of out school classes throughout the years, from math to grammar, to Star Wars, the Old Republic. [00:03:58] We know kids who love to learn [00:04:00] don't just prepare for the future. They create it. That's why Out School has reimagined online learning to empower kids and teens to expand their creativity, wonder and knowledge. Empathetic, passionate teachers encourage learners ages three to 18 to explore their interests. [00:04:15] Connect with diverse peers from around the world and take an active role in leading their learning out. School has created a world filled with endless possibilities for every schooling journey. Explore over 140,000 fun and flexible live online classes to find the right fit for your family and join us as we set learning free. [00:04:35] Sign up today at Out schooler.me/homeschool unrefined, and get up to $20 off your first class when you enroll with the code Unre. [00:04:44] Maren: And we are so excited to have Amir Nathoo the CEO of Out School on our podcast today. I did not have a cold when I did this interview, so it's gonna sound a lot better for you. [00:04:57] But it is just an inspiring [00:05:00] conversation about thinking differently, about about learning. And so I really hope you enjoy this conversation that [00:05:08] Angela: I had with Amir. [00:05:09] Maren: Thank you so much, Amir, for being here today. We're just so excited to have you. [00:05:13] Amir: It's a pleasure. I'm really excited to be talking to you. [00:05:16] Maren: That's just awesome. Okay, so why don't we just get started where you can give us a little bit of information about yourself, your background, and some of your experiences that [00:05:25] Amir: you've had. [00:05:26] Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, as you shared, my name is Amir Nathoo. I'm co-founder and head of out school. I am speaking to you today from San Francisco. Nice. Where I live and have lived for the last 12 years. You can probably tell from my accent that I grew up in England, so originally from the, the. [00:05:42] And you know, moved over here in, in 2009. Okay. And I've always worked in technology and in software from a very young age. That's what I wanted to do. Mm-hmm. and I, I wanted to be an entrepreneur for a long time, and so out school is my second company. Mm-hmm. and moved out to the. Bay area initially [00:06:00] for work and then, you know, fell in love with with the area and and, and the culture and the opportunities here and yeah, I've always been interested in education because both my parents were teachers and I benefited enormously. [00:06:12] Yeah. From that when I was growing up, and not just in terms of like my formal academic education, but even my career in. Software because, you know, they helped me pursue that as a learning experience outside of school. And so really kind of, you know, my own learning experiences and the influence of my parents has, has guided migration of out school. [00:06:34] Maren: That's amazing. So your parents were teachers or educators? What did they [00:06:38] Amir: teach? Yeah, my father was a high school physics teacher, and my mom taught part-time. They had met in London, you know, studying for physics PhD. So, you know, they taught these technical subjects. But actually my father came back to teaching. [00:06:52] He had worked in the family business for a period of time and then created his own business running a kinda a TV and HiFi shop. [00:07:00] So he, he always had this combination of, Entrepreneurship and, and learning. That was, yeah, really valuable to me growing up. [00:07:07] Maren: Okay. Yes. Cuz I was going to ask you, I know your father really did have influence in you in, in starting out school. [00:07:14] Was it those experiences or were there other things too that helped you decide to start out? [00:07:21] Amir: Yeah. You know, it's, it, it's really interesting when I look back, you know, I, I, I've always known he's had a very big influence on me. Mm-hmm. , when I look back, it's, it's now kind of amazing how much you know, the fact I think that he was, you know, an entrepreneur himself. [00:07:35] So we're always talking about business ideas around the kitchen table. And the fact that he was a teacher not only helped me with my. Learning. But then as I was reflecting later about what kind of business I wanted to start and what kind of area I wanted to work in you know, it was, it was, you know, very influential from that perspective. [00:07:52] But I think one specific thing that, that happens that was incredibly influential for me in the founding of out school was that when I was [00:08:00] about someone between five and seven years old, my father bought me a computer. Old BBC Micro to play games on and, you know, he ran this high-fi shop and TV shop and so, you know, computers were sold through shops like that. [00:08:12] So he, he could see these kind of technologies. Oh, that'd be cool. And, you know, I started playing with it. And back in those days you kind of had to program it in order to Yeah. And then the key moment was like, you know, him finding him and, and my mother. Spotting that I was interested in that and helping me get resources to pursue their interest. [00:08:30] And, you know, that that's kind of key to the inspiration behind Out school was we were reflecting on that, that learning experience that they helped me find was just so valuable right to my life and career. And it was completely outside. Like normal curriculum, like nowadays. Exactly. Computer science, these things that, that, you know, people know they're valuable. [00:08:47] Back then it was just a toy. They didn't do it because they didn't help me pursue their interest cause they thought it was gonna turn [00:08:52] Maren: into anything. Right. They didn't say, We would like you to learn coding. We, we know this is a the future and you need to learn this. [00:08:59] Amir: They [00:09:00] didn't like that. And you know, the lesson I take away from that isn't that everyone should learn coding then days. [00:09:04] I think that's, you could probably treat it as a core subject that, you know, maybe kids should learn, but instead it shows the power of the pursuit of. Both in terms of kinda motivating children and in terms of some of those interests are gonna turn out to be extremely important and valuable. Right. [00:09:19] It's very hard to [00:09:20] pick [00:09:20] Maren: which. Yep, exactly. And we don't know today what our kids are going to latch onto and and pursue as a career either. And we, you know, we can't know and we. Shouldn't, and that's okay. But we do, we do have this power to give them like the freedom to pursue their interests and learn how to learn. [00:09:41] How to learn is really what we talk about a lot or lo you know, learning how to love learning . We talk about that on our podcast a lot. Just enjoying the process of learning because when you have that, when you have the experience of enjoying learning you know, learning is limit [00:10:00] limitless. You can, you, the world is your oyster when you love learning. [00:10:04] Amir: Hundred percent could not agree more with that. Yeah. And you know, the other, the other part of that is also we don't know where the world is gonna be in 20 years time. Exactly. Exactly. So, you know, we have to prepare our kids with kind of not only with kind of knowledge that we think they, they need to know based on our own experience, but we have to. [00:10:20] Recognize that our own knowledge is limited. We can't predict the future, and we have to prepare them for an uncertain changing world, which for me involves like much greater breadth and focusing on the ability to learn and the confidence. Yes. The love of learning, as you say. Much more so than you know historically in education we've been talking [00:10:38] Maren: about. [00:10:38] Exactly. Okay. And so this, these were the experiences you had as a child, and then you went into the tech world and you decided to start out school. How did that come about? And how does it, how did it start? How did it, how did it start working too? I know that it's evolved throughout the years, so what, what was the beginning about? [00:10:59] Amir: Yeah, [00:11:00] totally. It, it's really fun to reflect on that for me. Mm-hmm. , you know, I founded out at school in 2015. Okay. Yep. You, I've spoken a little bit about some of the inspirations, but you know, a key motivation going in was I knew I wanted to have my own kids . Yep. Didn't have kids then now I have a a three and three quarter year old and a, and a 16 month old. [00:11:18] Oh, wow. And I, you know, I wanted to, you know, build something that they might use and to integrate in my future family life with my work. And that got me reflecting on education, my own education, what I would want for them. And some of the topics we talked about, about, yes. This realization that, oh, what's needed in the future doesn't seem to. [00:11:38] You know look like the traditional education that I went through, as well as recognizing this discrepancy between what has been most impactful for me versus my, my formal education. And then combined with that, you know, insights from the tech world, you know, at the time we were seeing marketplace models really change how various industries were. [00:11:59] Were structured and [00:12:00] you know, Lyft, an Uber, you could order like a ride share just to click on a button. Right? And, and it became, you know, this realization came like, why is it that when this technology clearly can make that work, I can't click a button and get a class my, instead, I have to think about enrolling them in an institution. [00:12:22] Where you months and months in advance, where there's a set curriculum that's centrally set, this makes no sense, right? Clearly we could do better, do better a technology perspective. But then I started thinking, well, why, You know, the technology's there and I started to realize the limiting factors were, you know, I guess. [00:12:38] People's kind of concern about how that would actually work. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. People care so much about kids' education and, and school and, and traditional schooling is so embedded in our society. Yep. And I started forming this thesis that, you know, that's why that it's been kind of slow at a change. And that, but at some point the pressures and the you know, on it, were gonna become too great. [00:12:59] It would [00:13:00] have to find a difference and better way that's more suited to the future. And so I started looking around saying, well, who's innovating? Not from a technology perspective, but from a social perspective. Right. And that's why I discovered homeschooling and, you know, I had certain preconceptions about homeschooling, which, you know, I'm sure you and your listeners are very familiar with and lots of. [00:13:19] Have those preconceptions. Yes. But when I learned about it more, I realized, oh, this isn't what I expected. Yeah. And not only that, but I thought that there were many parts of it, which looked like what the future of education should be, and that no one from a technology perspective was helping enable. [00:13:36] This kind of you know, this kind of activity. And that's really, you know, when yeah, the light bulb moment came off. There's a match between what technology can provide, what is needed for the future, and there's this existing community who was already kind of living in the future. [00:13:48] Maren: Can I ask you, what were the things that you saw in homeschool that you thought, Oh, this is different than what I thought This is actually, these are actually really great things that I'm seeing in homeschooling. [00:13:58] What were some of those? [00:14:00] [00:14:00] Amir: Well, first off, the realization that, you know, homeschooling was not people staying at home. Hello. Yeah, exactly. Parents, I mean it's, I mean, it's more obvious now that more people have experienced you know, learning at alternative forms of learning, you know, through the pandemic. [00:14:16] But you know, it wasn't obvious from an outsider then. And I know like, you know, now it just seems kind of, you know, silly that people think about Yeah. . But you know, that was first. Like, it was like, oh, like people aren't just at home. They are collaborating with fellow parents, they're bringing in teachers having a social experience. [00:14:34] And then, you know, the other pieces were you know, parents reporting that they could keep up with. The standard curriculum, standard requirements with much less effort. Yes. If you are more willing to go with the flow, like, don't try and get kids to learn at 8:00 AM if that's not what they wanna do exactly. [00:14:51] Instead wait until they're ready and then you get rid of a whole bunch of kind of resistance or issues. And then, you know, you don't have to deal with constraints [00:15:00] of an institution that has to have like this, you know, rigid schedule. And, you know, you know everything that comes, comes along with that. [00:15:06] Right, Right. And so it was just, it was just like really eye opening and really inspiring. And then one more thing, Sorry, I can wax lyric about this for ages. That reflection on the, So, well, one more thing was just like, I get it. The ability to pursue interests. Like the, you know, a parent told me, you know, Hey, my kid wanted to learn about volcanoes for a week and instead of just doing like one session on volcanoes, we just spent the entire week on volcanoes. [00:15:30] But yes, and we study science through volcanoes. We study geography from geology through volcanoes. We did art, We drew volcanoes. It's not like you're not doing the subjects by focusing on that interest, but allowed them to kind of create an arc with a family that really used the fact that the kid was so interested in it. [00:15:47] Exactly, and that just seemed like so different and so much better. Than what a traditional system could offer, at least back then. [00:15:55] Maren: Yes. And it's also internally motivated too when, when your child [00:16:00] is interested in volcanoes, they would, you cannot help but learn all about everything about volcanoes. I mean, just everything. [00:16:06] It's just they want it all and it's all just so natural and the most motivating way to learn, and it's efficient. It's like the most efficient way to learn. It all just happens. So effect. Yes. So that's awesome. Okay. So then you, when you started out school, you had a few classes or how did it start? [00:16:29] Amir: Well, you know, even before founding the company mm-hmm. [00:16:31] you know, best practice, it's like test the idea, you know, is this, it can work, Is this something that anyone would be willing to kind of pay for? Sure. And the theory was that, you know, if there could be a platform that could take some of the burden away from organizing these learning experiences from families, then that's something that that will be valuable and that will be yeah. [00:16:47] And you know, I found a friend who was at the time, a postgraduate researcher at U C S F who was doing just really interesting research in stem cell biology. And I said, Hey, could you te, could you. [00:17:00] Teach this, but to a group of gifted 12 year olds who I know are like interested in science. [00:17:05] They're interested in science that they couldn't necessarily get in the regular textbook. Great. And he said, Yeah, I can do that. I told him all about like what the theory was and yeah, what we're trying to do here. And then you, It's so amazing. I got connected with a group of you know, gifted homeschoolers in the Bay Area and I asked one of the parents this, Hey, hey, would you mind sounding out your community whether they'd like this? [00:17:25] Like, And then the resounding arts came. Yes, it was sold [00:17:28] Maren: out. I'm sure it was. I'm sure it was and [00:17:31] Amir: sounds amazing. And then the next one, and yeah, we started with these in person experiences. We were just like testing the waters Sure. In the local area. And then I think the second one was, Tour of a local business. [00:17:42] Mm-hmm. , another friend had this warehouse where they were making iPad cases. And I thought, Well, this is cool. Like he's an entrepreneur. Like I also, this is like a visible physical good. So you, you know, let's take a group of kids around, just show them the manufacturing processes, you know, all the teams interested in [00:18:00] entrepreneurship and interested in craft. [00:18:01] Again, just like sold out like , I believe that's you. Before there was even a website or a product, it was just like emails saying, you know, back and forth and these lists. And at that point I realized there was really something here that if we could create a marketplace of these kind of experiences, and not just those that I described, but like any kind of experience, whether it's like. [00:18:22] Academic or career based or social and emotional or you know, anything then that was gonna be very valuable and no one was doing anything like that at the time. The initial early steps [00:18:34] Maren: that reminds me of this is what I love about out school too, is that there. Everyone is an expert. All the teachers on there are just so amazing at what they do, and their little niche is it's priceless. [00:18:50] I mean, you are not gonna get that in even a school setting because teachers, I've, I've been one of them, . I was a public school teacher for eight years, and you just [00:19:00] can't. You can't be an expert in every topic that you teach. You just cannot. It's impossible, but I, one of our favorite classes, Two of my kids took, was this, it's an out school class called the Biology Coloring Club, and I actually posted about it on Instagram a couple or last week. [00:19:17] And Oh, especially my oldest daughter, absolutely loved it. It was super interactive. Without pressure though, because like there was no test, there was no final project that needed to be presented. It was just about this internal learning and. Kids got to color these very intricate, beautiful like systems of the body. [00:19:38] And the teacher who is a doctor to, you know, took, gave a, gave the kids like these super interesting facts about this, this system of the body. And my daughter learned so much that like, it's actually she's been inspired to pursue science. Career and Wow. Like, you know, she's just like thinking [00:20:00] about all these. [00:20:00] She's just, because she's actually was like such an artist before we knew that. But like this class really brought art into science and it was just kinda like this explosion of learning and growth and like awareness that she could be. She could use her creativity in science actually too. There's a, I mean, science innately is, you have to be pretty creative to, you know, like think of possibilities. [00:20:28] Yeah. And outside the box and things like that. But this class kinda like brought it all together anyway. I could just I can see the value of all the varieties of ways you can learn on out school cuz we've experienced them personally, ourselves. So you, can you tell us about like some of those options and how they've you know, what you can choose from and, and how kids might be able to learn on [00:20:51] Amir: old. [00:20:51] Yeah. And you've really captured so much of it, and I'm so grateful that your, you, your daughters enjoyed that, that class. But you know, you, you [00:21:00] captured it in that we have these teachers who create these really unique, compelling classes that really play to their strengths. Mm-hmm. and their skills. And in fact, we encourage teachers as part of their reward. [00:21:10] Hey, Like teach things that you personally are passionate about in ways that you are excited about, but that will come through in the class, and that's how you get, you know this you know, doctor teaching, biology, biology color. Right? And You know, we have now 140,000 class on the sites. There's tremendous variety. [00:21:28] It's amazing across all, all subjects. You know, anything that you can imagine, some stuff that you, you can't imagine. And you know, some of the classes that jump out to me are things like the science of bots. Parents love it, but it's actually really good sciences. Kids love it because FARs are hilarious. [00:21:47] and so everyone's happy. Exactly. You know, that's the thing. Often in education, it's the case. Oh, you know, parents feel like they have to make the kid do this. Kid's not really interested. Yeah. Yeah. Like we try to avoid that. It's possible to avoid that. You just need to have like a bit of [00:22:00] creativity as a, as a parent and a teacher, and you know, The approach where we take this marketplace based approach where we don't insist on any particular curriculum, lets that to happen. [00:22:09] So that's one example. I'm, I'm picking through a couple of others on the site right now. Great. There's one called Being a good Friend. I love that. And the power of confident communication and getting along. Yes. So socially and emotional learning. The weirdest things animals do and why [00:22:24] Let's bust some common animal myths. You know, you see how this is both interesting for kids and involves some cool learning. And then we have classes on trigonometry, you know? Exactly. Advanced trigonometry. And you know, if your kid is. Head on that this is an opportunity to kind of double down on an interest in, in math create a business to help humanity, an entrepreneurship course. [00:22:45] So we have just this tremendous sobriety and, you know, like you, you know, I've now seen it work for myself because you know, I founded out school. I didn't have kids yet. I wanted to have kids, you know, Now I have a three and three quarter year old. And on his third birthday, of course, what did I do? I took the airplane.[00:23:00] [00:23:00] Yeah, no, out school. So let me try this out. And thankfully he loved it. awesome. There was this potential kind of path where I'd created this and company and, and then he didn't like it. But thankfully he loves it and he's now in lots of classes. And it's incredible to see the development. You know, I did not, That's so, Sign him up to class. [00:23:19] You know, I'm with the intent of like making him more advanced. That's not really how I think about education. My aspirations for him, you know, I I'm, I'm not trying to get him into a fancy college or like be ahead anyway, but, and at the same time, taking these interest based classes is just upleveled him in terms. [00:23:38] Confidence, interaction and some of the, some of the content that he's learning in terms of reading and writing and, and numbers. And so, you know, I, I see that firsthand [00:23:48] Maren: too. Yes. That's awesome. I, I see that, I see the value in, like I said, like this process of learning. Our, our kids are practicing learning and loving to learn too. [00:23:58] Because like I was [00:24:00] thinking of some other classes, like my kids have taken city planning. But it's all based on Lego Legos. So Cool. That was awesome. Also, my kids have gone down phases of like, they're, they've been really into frogs and so we just, we signed up for like a life cycle of frogs class, and then also got to show our frogs to the class, you know, the, the frogs that we've been catching until it just, you know, It actually, I think, also gives value to what they're interested in. [00:24:29] It gives 'em value. It's like this is actually an official learning. This is learning. And so it, it, you know, it's just so empowering and so that's one another reason why I absolutely love out school. And then something like trigonometry where I, you know, would be so overwhelmed to even think about teaching a class like trigonometry. [00:24:47] To be able to hand that over to someone who really does know and love trigonometry down a tree is very relieving to me. . [00:24:56] Amir: Absolutely. Absolutely. And there's definitely room for that. You, you don't, [00:25:00] Don't have to and you shouldn't have to do it all [00:25:01] Maren: yourself, is that? No. And that's the great thing about homeschooling now in today, today versus, you know, 20 years from now you can sign up for a class that it's all encompassing. [00:25:12] It's just so, it's just right there and then, and the people who teach these classes are just really passionate about it. So it's just a win-win for sure. I know there are lots of kids, including my own, who have learning differences. Who really do well in out school classes. Can you tell us more about that? [00:25:30] How you keep kids in mind, who learn differently and how they can be successful with out school classes. [00:25:38] Amir: A hundred percent. And you know, there's multiple parts to that. And, and you know, we have many kids and families in, in out school classes with you know, identified learning differences. But I also like to say that every kid is different and unique. [00:25:51] Exactly. So true. And the power of recognizing the identified learning differences and catering. For them is that you actually benefit all kids. [00:26:00] Yes. And so, you know, a large part of it was just like how the community developed because, you know, the initial set of teachers were very familiar with those learning differences within various you know, homeschooling communities and sub communities. [00:26:11] Right. And families were sensitive to 'em as well. So the very start of our school, you know, always had that built in. And then you know, over time that attracted more and more families and teachers who were able. Handle those learning differences and, and we've now built in, you know, training into our, our teacher programs on, on, on how to do that for teachers that might have less experience coming in and and serving learners with unique needs. [00:26:32] Right. Some of it's also just innate in the model because with a marketplace based approach, people are self selecting in. Yes, you'll learn a, depending on how they want to interact and what the subject is, can pick the right class and teach you, and it's low stakes. So if you try it and it's really not, Gelling, then just take another class floor stake, one time classes or ongoing classes where you just go week by week rather than kind of committing up front to something that you don't know might work for your, your learner. [00:26:58] So all of that helps [00:27:00] support you know, kids with learning differences, whether, whether explicitly identified or or otherwise. And, and also I also one of the benefits of this live online, this online mode of learning over video chat is again, it's lower stakes, it's still social, but you know, you, you know, you could, the different ways to engage through chat or through speaking, you don't have to unmute. [00:27:21] Yes. And, you know, worst case, you know, it's on a computer, you can always just shut the laptop if you, if you give, become very, very, So . So I think all of that lends itself to being you know, positive a positive way for kids with learning differences to engage. And that's something that we really want to keep as we grow out school as community and as [00:27:41] Maren: business. [00:27:41] Yep. That's awesome. And I also, I also think it's just so focused on the experience rather than the outcome. I think that's a really big part for, for kids with learning differences. It's just about the learning. It's just about you know, either the connection or the content. You're learning the interest, and We're not worried about, [00:28:00] like, we're not gonna give you a grade or tell you Right. [00:28:02] What, you know, what your outcome really needs to be necessarily. I know there are some classes where you share things, which is really community oriented too, which I love. Yeah. We've done writing classes where we just. Everybody brings a piece of writing and we share it, and then they learn how to give like, positive feedback and it's just amazing. [00:28:22] So I love that too. Yeah. But it's never about like, there's no shame in your, in your, in your outcome. Which is I think, what a lot of kids learn in school. , unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, Yeah. Yeah. So, and then also I think like you, you just, you just mentioned you had you do have some like mental health classes as well. [00:28:43] Well, there was like a social, social emotional learning class that you talked about. Can you tell us more about that too? What those classes might, how they might support kids, especially today. You know, after, you know, we've gone through a pandemic and kids, [00:29:00] I think right now a lot of them are suffering, you know, with mental health issues. [00:29:05] And just wondering how out school can support. [00:29:09] Amir: Yeah. You know, it's a huge area and it's a huge problem right now. Mm-hmm. . And you know, I, I don't think it's just the pandemic. I think there's anything about our society and education, which are, which are causing this. And you know, as a result we see on our school tremendous demand and also, you know, supply of classes around supporting kids. [00:29:28] For example, I'm just looking at class right now. Worry university strategies to increase calm and reduce anxiety. So these kind of social and emotional learning classes groups where there is support and advice and identity based groups that kids can connect with. Others where they might not have that connection or support locally for various reasons. [00:29:49] We don't do medical kind of therapy. Sure. Or, you know, and if kind of individualized learning plan that falls into the, the realm of medical services, which will, which various reasons, Yeah, this [00:30:00] isn't quite the right format for those services. But in terms of social emotional learning, that's a very big part of what, what our school offers with these classes that, again, you would not typically get. [00:30:09] In normal school. [00:30:10] Maren: Right, Exactly. Yep. Yeah, that's what, that's what another thing I love about old school is that there, it's like there are classes for the whole, it's for the whole child. Not just academicy things that are required of them, but just it's really supporting the whole child, which I love. [00:30:25] So do you have any favorite classes? School that you really love. . [00:30:31] Amir: I, I talked about a few, like the science of thoughts. You know, one real surprise for us was there's one well there's, there's now several, in fact, many on Dungeons and Dragons. Oh, fun. The first one was learning critical thinking skills through Dungeons and Dragons. [00:30:46] We ever thought that a class like that could become successful, but when it was first posted it, it became one of the most successful classes on the platform within just a few months. It just goes to show that people really dig this combination of kind of, Yeah. [00:31:00] Important kind of hard skills. Yes. With fun. [00:31:03] That was a great example of that. And then another set of classes, and then several different kinds of them are, are like writing workshops, creative writing. Mm-hmm. talk through Minecraft. Minecraft on the side, as well as like, you know, the Zoom kind of video chats, talk to the teachers and. And [00:31:20] Maren: that, that is [00:31:21] Amir: so great. [00:31:22] Yeah. And it just, again, it's just matching kids interest with, with with kind of skills or Yes. That, that, that parents are excited for their kids to learn and keeps everyone happy and engaged and, and promotes the love of [00:31:35] Maren: learning. Exactly. Yeah. You're meeting your, the kids where they're at and going from there which creates. [00:31:42] Phenomenal environment. I just love that so much. What do you see as the future of out school from here on out? Where is it going and maybe even in general of education, Where is education going? [00:31:56] Amir: Yeah, and you know, I, I hope the two are quite linked cuz we [00:32:00] hope to have like a big positive impact on right. [00:32:01] You know, the future of our school that I wanna see is to create this global learning community where, you know, kids and parents are able to find like exactly the right learning group for their kid at the right time with the right teacher to really engage them and move them forward. And the larger our community gets, the more classes we can offer, the more teachers we can support, and as a result, the kind of better match we can find from four kids with all kinds of needs. [00:32:27] And, you know, we have been, you know, very fortunate to serve about a million learners to date which is a, you know, amazing. Large number. And you know, I'm so grateful for all those families. I also recognize that there's, you know, 58 million K-12 age learners in the US and, and so many more worldwide. [00:32:44] And we have an opportunity to create, you know, a a a different kind of learning experience for, for many, many kids. And one part of that that's really inspiring to me is that. I believe that if kids around the world had positive learning experiences with each other at a [00:33:00] young age, with others from different socioeconomic backgrounds or, you know, different countries or different parts of society, then that would create a lot more empathy and would help towards some of the issues that we see in the world today. [00:33:13] So that's what I hope for out school and, and the hope for the, the impacts that we, we have in education more generally. You know, I hope for. I hope for change in how we think about what's important in kids' education to focus on this love of learning and the ability to learn rather than being so fixated on performance against specific rubrics or subjects. [00:33:33] Yes, and you know, I hope we can you know, have education change to be you know, more dynamic in kids work focused and future looking. [00:33:41] Maren: Absolutely. Ugh. I hope so. I hope, I hope there are, I hope out, out school influences , the way we educate all of our kids because it is a model. I think it's a model. [00:33:54] And I hope, I hope Schools see that? I hope that schools see that. Because it would just, what a, what a [00:34:00] great combination that would be. I don't know, just to be able to utilize out schools so much more. Ugh. Yeah. I get excited about this kind of stuff. I [00:34:07] Amir: get so excited about it. I do too. And, and that's what I hope. [00:34:10] And, but I think we have a lot of work to do. We do use, education is so entrenched that it's gonna take time and it's gonna take examples to shift. And that's why I'm, you know so grateful to be. Part of it along with your community and grateful for the work that you are doing to kind of spread some of these messages about you know, what education could be. [00:34:30] Yeah. [00:34:30] Maren: Thank you. Thanks so much. Appreciate it. All right. Where can we find you? [00:34:36] Amir: So I always love hearing from our community. Feel free to email me@amiroutschool.com. Out school.com is you know, the, our website I hope many of you're familiar with it. If you're not, would love to, love to see that. [00:34:48] You also find me on, on Twitter, Amir, and so those are places where I, I [00:34:51] Maren: live on. Great. And then also just a reminder, if you sign up with our personal link it is out [00:35:00] schooler.me/hope School. Unrefined. You will get up to $20 off your first class if you enroll with a code unrefined. So keep that in mind. [00:35:09] I highly suggest it's . You probably won't stop at one class, just so you know. All right. Thank you so much, Amir. We appreciate you so much and everything you're. [00:35:20] Amir: Thank you, and likewise. It's been a pleasure to talk. You too. Bye [00:35:24] Maren: bye now. [00:35:25] Angela: All right, let's move on to our lt, Ws our loving this week. Yes, Myron, what are you loving this week? All [00:35:31] Maren: right. Okay. So I am loving a new laundry detergent, and I got this specifically for a certain, this, like certain need that I had. So it is called hex, h e x performance fragrance, Fragrance free laundry detergent. [00:35:46] And I picked it out because it's specifically for. You know, [00:35:50] Angela: sports gear and things like that. Oh, [00:35:52] Maren: yeah. And I got it because, you know, these, you know the shirts that you get for working out, It's like this material. You know what [00:36:00] I'm talking about, you know, performance. Yes. And especially like my husband and I both actually have, like, have these shirts and for some reason they like, they, the odor stays in them even after I wash them with any kind of laundry detergent that I've ever used. [00:36:17] Okay. I mean, I, I'm going for like the strongest stuff, like whatever, you know, And nothing has worked to get, like, it's even sometimes not even a bad spell. It's like deodorant, smell or something, you know? Oh, yeah, yeah. It's just not coming out and so's just the material. I guess. I don't know, maybe other people have had this issue too, and they must have, but I found. [00:36:40] Angela: Hex performance [00:36:42] Maren: laundry detergent, and it's so great. I use it just for Sean in my shirts like that because Oh, okay. It's like, it's like the, the only thing that gets out this, this odor and it's, and it's fragrance free, which I really like because I don't actually want lingering [00:37:00] other odor either. [00:37:01] Although I think you can get different fragrances if you. [00:37:05] Angela: Okay, so yeah, So you don't use it on all your laundry, just [00:37:08] Maren: your I don't, I really don't. I just use it for specifically for our, for our shirts, . [00:37:14] Angela: All right. Where do you get it? Amazon. I got it on Target. target.com. Okay. Oh yeah. Mm-hmm. , thanks for sharing. [00:37:21] I'm gonna have to check that out because actually I'm running out of my laundry deter, and I was just thinking I need to find something new, so. Mm-hmm. , you might like that out. [00:37:28] Maren: Yep. All right, Angela, [00:37:30] Angela: what are you loving This. I'm loving a show that's back and I'm not even embarrassed about it. It's Love is Blind. [00:37:36] Three. Okay. Season three . Mm-hmm. . And I'm wondering if anybody else is watching. If you are, hit me up because I'm gonna need to discuss As of right now, I'm like one or two episodes from the end, but I'm gonna finish it. Probably by the time this comes out, I'll have finished it. Okay. Yeah, because what I like about it is Jeremy and I binge together mm-hmm. [00:37:55] because he's just as into it as I am and I'm always looking for a show [00:38:00] that grabs our attention and makes us wanna keep going to the next episode. Yeah. Yeah. If you've been around, well, you know Jeremy, like he goes to bed early. Doesn't, He's very he has good boundaries around sleep. He has really good boundaries. [00:38:12] He doesn't let a binge get to him, . And even this, so, but like the show he'll watch with me, not super late, but he'll watch like an episode and a half, or he'll like, stretch it out a little longer than he normally would. And so I'm happy about that. So it's totally you know You know, just for [00:38:28] Maren: fun. [00:38:28] This is just for fun. It's, It is, yes. Yeah. Have you watched? Well, I've actually, I think I only watched season [00:38:34] Angela: one cause I know, I'm trying to think. There was a season [00:38:37] Maren: two. Yeah. How did I miss that? [00:38:42] Angela: Well, now I have more to watch. I also like it, this is gonna sound really weird, but, but like, we talk about relationships when we watch it and like you know, how. [00:38:53] We, we connect it to our relationship or that's gonna work or that's never gonna work. I dunno. It's just fun to like, [00:39:00] discuss relationship dynamics with your . That's so great. So it's on Netflix, You should watch it. I like it because it's, it's contained, it's 10 episodes. Mm-hmm. And you can binge. [00:39:09] That's easy. It's a binger. Okay. It's a bender. That's great. All right, [00:39:13] Maren: well, thank you Angela. Yep. And thank you to our three sponsors, Blossom and Root Out School and Night Zookeeper. Be sure to check out their links in our show notes. [00:39:23] Angela: This podcast is created and hosted by Angela Se and Mar Gorse. We are listeners supported to get extra content and the Back to School Summit free with your membership. [00:39:33] Go to patreon.com/homeschool unrefined. Subscribe to our newsletter and get our free top 100 inclusive booklist@homeschoolunrefined.com slash newsletter. You can find on Instagram at unrefined and at always learning with you can find Angela at unrefined. Angela. [00:39:52] [00:40:00]

This week, Julie Bogart is back to talk all about changing our minds in parenting and homeschooling. Fall 2022 Season Sponsors We are so grateful to our Fall 2022 Season Sponsors. Use the links below for their special offerings: Blossom & Root and use code HSUnrefined15 for 15% off your purchase Outschool and use code Unrefined for $20 off your first class Night Zookeeper for a 7-day, risk-free trial, as well as 50% off an annual subscription LTWs Maren: Good Inside by Dr Becky Kennedy Angela: Calm Aid Connect with us! Visit our website Sign up for our newsletter and get our Top 100 Inclusive Book List We are listener supported! Support us on Patreon Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and see video episodes now on Youtube Angela on Instagram: @unrefinedangela | Maren on Instagram: @unrefinedmaren and @alwayslearningwithmaren Email us any questions or feedback at homeschoolunrefined@gmail.com Complete Episode Transcript [00:00:00] Angela: hi, we are Maren and Angela of Homeschool, Unrefined. Over the past 25 years, we've been friends, teachers, homeschool parents and podcasters. Together with our master's degrees and 20 years combined homeschooling. We are here to rethink homeschooling, learning, and education with an inclusive and authentic lens. [00:00:29] Maren: At Homeschool, Unrefined, we prioritize things like giving yourself credit, building strong connections, respectful parenting, interest led playing and learning, learning differences, mental health, self care, and listening to an EL elevating LGBTQ plus and bipo voices. [00:00:48] Angela: We are here to encourage and support you. [00:00:50] Whether you are a new homeschooler, a veteran, you love curriculum, you're an unschooler. Whether all your kids are at home or all your kids are at school or somewhere in [00:01:00] between. Wherever you are in your journey, we're the voice in your head telling you, you're doing great, and so are your kids. [00:01:07] Maren: This is episode 1 98, Changing Our Minds with Julie Bogart. [00:01:14] We had such a good conversation and we're so excited to share this with you, and then we are going to end like we always do with our l t Ws Loving this week. [00:01:26] Angela: Before we get going, we did wanna let you know about our Patreon classes. We are starting a new series. on Thursday and it's our what We don't do series. Mm-hmm. , if you have been around a while, you probably have listened to one of our, What we don't do messages, we're turning them into a class and we're gonna talk about what we don't do as a, in a class format. [00:01:48] And that is gonna be Thur this Thursday at one o'clock central time. And if you are interested in that, you can join us on, on Patreon for our super squad. That's the $10 level. We [00:02:00] will have links in the show notes for you there, but we'd love to see you if you can't come live. You can get it recorded and video and audio. [00:02:07] We will be putting those out and then, The day or two after that. [00:02:11] Maren: Absolutely. And you know, we are passionate [00:02:13] Angela: about what we don't do. we are and spreading one of our favorite things. . It's important. It is. Mar and I both love new and innovative ways to make reading and writing fun. That's why we hope you've tried Night Zookeeper. [00:02:28] Is your child a reluctant writer? Do they struggle with. If the answer to either of these questions is yes, the Night Zookeeper may just be what you've been looking for. Night Zookeeper is an online learning program for children, ages six to 12 years old that uses a gamified and creative approach to help keep kids engaged and focused on developing awesome reading and writing skills, all while having fun at the same time. [00:02:51] Some of the features we love include the educational games, the personalized feedback on writing from Real tutors, the Super Safe Community pages where [00:03:00] children can work with each other and learn together. If night Zookeeper sounds like the perfect learning program for your child, you can try it for free by clicking on the link in the show notes. [00:03:09] When you register, you'll get a seven day risk free trial, as well as a huge 50% off annual subscription. That's a great deal if you ask. When it comes [00:03:20] Maren: time to decide on whether or not to use a curriculum, we think you should check out Blossom and Root. Blossom and Root is a nature focused secular homeschool curriculum focusing, focusing on creativity, science, nature. [00:03:35] Literature and the arts. Blossom and Root has been gently encouraging in supporting homeschool families around the globe since 2016. Blossom and Root currently offers curricula for pre-K through fifth grade with new levels being added in the future. Additionally, a three volume inclusive US history curriculum told from a variety of viewpoints is [00:04:00] currently in development as of August, 2022. [00:04:03] Volume one is available for purchase and volume two is available on presale. All profits from this history curriculum. A River of voices will be used to support storytellers and artists from historically excluded communities. You can find samples, scope, and sequences and information about each of their levels online at www.blossomandroute.com. [00:04:29] You can also find them on, I. [00:04:31] Angela: At Blossom and Root, [00:04:33] Maren: Blossom and Root has created a special discount for our listeners. Use the code Hs. Unrefined 15 at checkout for 15% off your [00:04:43] Angela: purchase. Over the years, our kids have taken many out school courses that they have loved. Have you given out school a try? We know that kids who love to learn don't just prepare for the future. [00:04:56] They create it. That's why Out School has [00:05:00] reimagined online learning to empower kids and teens to expand their creativity, wonder and knowledge. Empathetic, passionate teachers encourage learners ages three to 18 to explore their in. Connect with diverse peers from around the world and take an active role in leading their learning out. [00:05:16] School has created a world filled with endless possibilities for every schooling journey. Explore over 140,000 fun and flexible live online classes to find the right fit for your family. And join us as we set learning free. Sign up today at Out schooler.me/homeschool unrefined. And get up to $20 off your first class when you enroll with a code Unre. [00:05:42] Maren: All right. We are so excited to introduce you. [00:05:46] If you don't know Julie Bogart Bogart yet, here she is. Julie Bogart is the creator and owner of Brave Writer, the online writing and language arts program for kids and teens. She's written two books, The [00:06:00] Brave Learner and Most Recently Raising Critical Thinkers, Julie Holy Supports Homeschool Parents Through Her Social Media Channels. [00:06:08] Her podcast, her books and her community. We have always absolutely loved talking to Julie and we're just so glad that she is back. Enjoy this conversation. [00:06:20] Thank you so much, Julie, for joining us again on our podcast. We've had you on a few times and we love having you every single [00:06:27] Julie: time. Well, the feeling is mutual. Mar, I love being here. [00:06:31] Maren: Thank you so much. Okay. So I really wanna talk about your book that actually came out quite a while ago, but you and I have both been so busy that we haven. [00:06:41] Able to make time to talk about it, but I'm so excited to talk about your book Raising Critical Thinkers. And we talked a little bit about it maybe on your podcast last time. Yes, yes, Yep. But I just, this was before, I think we read your book though. You were still writing it and we've now since read it and love it. [00:06:59] And I'm just [00:07:00] wondering what made you wanna write this book right [00:07:03] Julie: now? Specif. Yeah, that's such a fun question for me to answer because you have to go all the way back to the 1990s to answer this question. Mm, okay. Yeah. It really started with the dawn of the internet . So in like 19 95, 96, when the worldwide web was crawling out into the space, homeschool parents in particular were. [00:07:25] We're like the first people to barge through those doors. We were so isolated. Yeah. , there were about 800, right? There were about 800 Absolutely. Thousand families who homeschooled back then in the United States today there's 3.2 million, so that's, That's amazing. A sizeable growth. And we did not have a means. [00:07:41] Of connecting except in local communities. Mm-hmm. . And so you can imagine the numbers were small. You know, you might, in your community have five or 10 people you know who homeschooled. Right. Some people had no one. So we all hopped online. Yep. In these couple of major sort of homeschool watering holes. [00:07:58] And to be fair to [00:08:00] the movement, the truth of the movement at that point is that it was. Yeah, we were white. Yep. Mostly conservative. Politically and religiously. Yep. And heterosexual and married. Right. So that was the demographic, like 98%, 99%. So I imagined we would get on these discussion boards and we would really like each other. [00:08:21] You know, I, I had been to park days. People are friendly, you know, occasionally they mention your child misbehaved, but nobody's getting into big fights about politics at a park day. Sure. And yet I get on these discussion boards and while there's plenty of friendliness, plenty of good advice. Mm-hmm. , there was also a shocking willingness. [00:08:43] Mm-hmm. to really go to battle. Mm-hmm. over things like oxy Clean, whether or not to breastfeed, Oh no. Whether or not you should potty train your child by age two. And that's the tip of the iceberg. When we got, When we got near [00:09:00] religious discussion, like doctrinal issues or theology, the gloves came off. [00:09:05] Wow. People [00:09:06] Maren: get really brave, don't they, on [00:09:07] Julie: those sites? Oh my gosh. And this is before we knew about trolls, so I jokingly say homeschoolers and bena trolling. We used to call it flaming, but it was really just a lot of fighting. And so here's the question that sort of grew inside me at that. . Why does everyone think they're right? [00:09:26] Mm. And why do they assume that all they have to do is state their belief and everyone will agree with it. So there was very little curiosity. It wasn't like, Wow, you're a five point Calvinist. I'm only a three point. I wonder why that is. . No, that is not what happened. It would be things like, you know, Julie, I just think you're wrong here. [00:09:46] The actual true theology is X. Mm-hmm. . And so for me, at the time when I was expecting sort of this homogeneous. Kumbaya experience. It was not that. And in fact, I was [00:10:00] so intrigued by this problem. I started my own discussion board. We called it at the time the Trap Door Society. And the reason it had that name Yeah. [00:10:10] Was that I felt like all these women were performing roles on a stage, you know, parent, wife, educator, spiritual or non-spiritual person, whatever you were. And we had no way of. To nurture the individual person that we were. So I wanted a trap door so we could go beneath the stage and like try on different costumes. [00:10:33] Imagine other points of view, read books that were for our pleasure, not for our children. That's amazing. Yeah. And it was, it was amazing. It was. So that was the. [00:10:44] Maren: You created that safety. That's that's what it sounds like to me when you're talking about that trap door. That's a place of safety where you can try things on without getting completely reprimanded. [00:10:57] Well, [00:10:57] Julie: that was the goal. Yeah. It did [00:11:00] not go that way. Oh, [00:11:01] Maren: okay. [00:11:01] Julie: So I started this community. Mm-hmm. . There was a lot of love. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And there were some, I mean, phenomenal discussions that were life changing for me. I will say that right out of the gate, my parenting, my home education, my outlook on the world was shaped profoundly by that community. [00:11:17] But there was also some battles that literally took me out, like days of crying obsessing over responding, trying to craft the perfect words so no one would be mad and still, Oh, I feel that lacking anger. Early days of the internet. Mm-hmm. the early two thousands. And so that persistent experience of why does everyone think they're right? [00:11:43] Right. Stayed with me. And it got me curious about how we form our thoughts. Why we think, how we do, what we believe about other people who think differently. And I, I just got on this serious mission. I've been studying, thinking for over 20 years. I've been so [00:12:00] fascinated by it. I even went to grad school to try. [00:12:02] Understand how we all think so differently. So yeah, that's really what led me to it. So ironically, it came out during the Covid period, , which is a, an important time to think critically. Oh my gosh. It's almost like, you know, we hit the Zer of trolling and flaming and everything else. [00:12:22] Maren: And it continues. And it continues. [00:12:24] Like for sure we need to, we need this skill. So what is your definition of critical thinking? Why do you think, Well, I mean, we already talked about why we think it's important, but if you have any other thoughts about that, but just what is it to you? What [00:12:37] Julie: does it look like? Yeah. Critical thinking for me starts in an unusual place. [00:12:41] Like if you go into the education world and they talk about critical thinking, it's always about analyzing something over. , like a piece of literature, a scientific discovery, a mathematical problem. Yes. But I think critical thinking starts closer to home. [00:13:00] It's self-awareness. It's the capacity to notice your own bias as it kicks into gear, right? [00:13:06] To pay attention to what triggers you to be curious, for instance, about why you think you're right. Yes. And it's doing all that before we extend a similar. Attitude, I guess I would say. Yep. To someone else. So if I know that I have these inherent triggers, biases and proclivities, right? That's also true of the person I'm chatting with. [00:13:30] Mm-hmm. , the cuter. And my job is to at least get to a place of understanding how the jigsaw puzzle of their experiences, education, thoughts, socioeconomics, and identity created safety right for them through this. Because that's what our beliefs are. They are a safety protective shield that keeps who I am free of anyone harming me. [00:13:58] Maren: It sounds to me like you're [00:14:00] talking about self-awareness as being one huge key. Totally of critical thinking it is. And then being aware that this other person is also has this other set of aware, you know, self awareness and maybe not, may not be as aware about those is of those things. And then, oh, it's just the, a higher level thinking here. [00:14:21] You know, I just think when you get in those situations and the. The ability to understand yourself, understand this other person and how you work together, and how it, how it's okay that they're thinking differently and it's okay that I'm thinking differently and we can work together in this way. I mean, it's just. [00:14:38] This is what's so needed in our world today. Can you imagine if E the most powerful people in the world, can't even do this, Julie? No. No. Can you train them ? [00:14:52] Julie: Well, the problem, the problem I really think comes down to the fact that. There are dangerous [00:15:00] thoughts. Mm-hmm. thought worlds that exist, but the criteria for danger varies community by community. [00:15:06] Mm-hmm. , person by person. So a lot of times when I've done these interviews, people have said, So you're really focused on critical thinking, leading to empathy. And my rejoinder is actually, no, this book isn't about empathy. You may gain some empathy. Sure. Come to a place where you look at your child, for instance, and have more insight into why they hold a view, and it creates a feeling of warmth or compassion towards your child. [00:15:31] Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . But mostly it's about understanding because for instance, we love true crime, right? We're all listening to podcasts. We all do movies, and we are doing it because we are fascinated to understand. Why a person imagines that the best solution to a problem in their life is murder. We're not and and we want to understand it. [00:15:56] That's why we watch. Right. We don't just judge it. We're like, [00:16:00] Well, what factors led that person to thinking, I will have a more beautiful life if I off this other person. What we end up feeling at the end is horror, not empathy. Right. Right. It actually engages our deep morality. We. Wow, these factors are problematic. [00:16:19] This person saw the world in a way that is so different than mine. And then it leads us to ask what I think is a very important question, What is it about that person's perspective that we haven't accounted for? Mm-hmm. in the public square. Yep. So if we think about someone like, you know, just to go for the extreme Hitler and go for it. [00:16:40] Yep. Right. What we have, were an entire population. Of German Christian, middle class churchgoing people. Mm-hmm. becoming persuaded that the solution to their economic crisis was genocide. Yeah. And the question we [00:17:00] have to ask ourself is how did that happen? How did that happen? Yep. Because they were persuaded. [00:17:08] There was a structure and a belief system that they were able to inc. That made them think they were on the moral high ground. And so for me, critical thinking is all of that. It's not just empathy, it's accounting for those factors that may possibly lead us into very immoral and scary thought worlds. [00:17:31] But we do it from a place of. Actual desire for a better world. Right. We're not doing it because we're inherently evil. We're doing it because we think life will be better for us and our people. [00:17:43] Maren: Right, Right, right. And that's why we need to think critically about our history. That's right. So that we can change it. [00:17:50] does not repeat itself. True. Yep. So true. One of our favorite chapters in your book is probably the last chapter, The Courage to Change Your [00:18:00] Mind. We love this idea. We talk about it a lot as parents. So just sitting with that for a minute, changing your mind. Why do you think that changing your mind is important? [00:18:10] Julie: Well, first of all, the capacity to change your mind shows a certain agility in your own ability to process information. So psychological research shows that psychological flexibility is a key component to a healthy ego. Mm-hmm. and healthy relationships. So if we are hardened or rigid, we actually start to eliminate the capacity to relate to a variety of people, right? [00:18:39] Then what we do is we start shrinking the group until we're in a very small corner of the world, well defended against all the attackers. We become victims, right? Of our own ideology. Mm-hmm. . So the courage to change your mind says, I'm actually related to all of humanity. There isn't [00:19:00] the in group, in the out group. [00:19:01] I'm here to hear experiences, data, research, information that is not like the kind I have and understand how it's shaped these people that I am connected to simply by being a human being. I don't think we think that way very often, but one thing I have not, Is that parents are the most likely to change their spiritual, political, social value beliefs when a child. [00:19:32] Tax them. So you have a child? Oh yes. That's me. Example. Right? Totally, totally. All that story, because I think it's so powerful. Well, there are, [00:19:40] Maren: there are actually, I mean, there's a lot of things I can't even share right now until my kids are grow, grown up. Yes. Until they've given me permission. But I mean, definitely politically, spiritually so many things. [00:19:51] I actually, I wrote down a few things, things that I've changed my mind on as a parent recently, probably hair color. Tattoos [00:20:00] piercings. Not that I'm letting my kids pierce their or get tattoos, but , like, I've changed my mind on it because just talking about it ha has created this big rift and I'm like, I, Why am I so against the, I mean, why am I so I against this? [00:20:18] I do not know. I honestly don't know anymore . So I had to rethink that. Food choices, TV and movie choices, clothing. What body parts can be shown and not shown. You know, these are things and ultimately school choice. Yes, school education choices. Because, you know, if it were up to me, we'd probably, you know, be doing something very different school-wise right now. [00:20:41] And I'm listening to my kids and they're telling me what they need and I'm like, Wait a second. I you. For a while I was like, No kids, we're doing school this way. This is what I see as the best way . And they're like, Mom, listen to us. We're telling you what we need right now. And I'm, and I had to really [00:21:00] go inside myself and evaluate like, why am I, why are my ideals the boss of. [00:21:08] Their education right now, it's their lives ultimately. And I can, That's right. Yeah. So I can make, Obviously I wanna make safe and good, you know, good choices for them. But there are lots of safe and good choices. I [00:21:22] Julie: think so. No, that is so beautifully expressed. Mm-hmm. . Because part of what happens is we've already lived through those ages. [00:21:31] We were teenagers and young adults. We have regrets, choices we made that we think, Wow, that was a bad decision. Or I wish my mother had stopped me from doing X. Right. And so we come in with this perspective that somehow we can protect our children from right. Regret, mistakes, getting in car accidents, whatever it is. [00:21:49] Mm-hmm. . And yet it is those very experiences that formed and shaped us into the adults we are today. Right. And when we don't give our children the [00:22:00] agency over their choices to some extent, obviously you have some, some room there, but to some extent, Then they feel the need to react that much harder. Yes. [00:22:11] Because they are testing, not you, but the world outside of your home to find out, am I qualified to be admitted as an adult? Yes. And if they don't have the opportunity to make some of those calls and fail. They will not discover what resources they need. I, I did a podcast interview recently with a mom who was raised in the obedience model as a child. [00:22:36] Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And she told me she got to young adulthood and thought, But how can I know if I'm making a good decision, where's the authority that's gonna tell me I'm doing the thing? Yep. And so our kids need the, the right. I remember Johanna, she had red. She decided to die purple and the culture, not me. [00:22:57] I was like, That's fine. Yeah. Yeah. , the culture told her, [00:23:00] if you're a redhead, you're not allowed to dye your hair because your hair is too beautiful. You're not allowed to get rid of red hair. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember supporting her and saying, You know, it's your hair. Pick a color. So she went in to get it dye, and even the hair stylist was like, Are you sure? [00:23:18] Yeah. And so the hair stylist refused to bleach the hair. She's like, We'll just put purple on top of it. And it came out black. Okay. No. So she didn't end up with her purple hair. She had red hair and black hair, and then she decided to go full goth to support the black hair, you know, early two thousands, [00:23:36] And I look back on that and I think what an interesting moment for her. Yeah. To assert a desire and have the whole culture oppose her and to keep fighting for it anyway. Like this is what we want. How will they build their self confide? If they never have a chance to encounter opposition, to stand up for what they want, [00:24:00] to find out if it matches what their hopes and dreams were. [00:24:03] They need some of those chances, don't they? [00:24:05] Maren: They absolutely do, and I think our traditional educational system is teaching our kids to obey, yes, meet the standards, do the thing, and perform and not really think critically about themselves. They, it might be thinking critically. One small topic here, one small topic here, but it's not this all-encompassing critical thinker that, that we're raising, you know, in our education system. [00:24:32] And it's, it's tough because then they go to co, they go to college and, and you know, they might not. Go find the resources they need to do well in college because they haven't been taught to be proactive about those things or to figure out what they need or even to find their passion to find the thing they love to do in the world because they've just learned to go through the hoops. [00:24:53] Go through the hoops, do it, get a job, make [00:24:56] Julie: money, , a hundred percent. In fact, when I taught at Xavier [00:25:00] University, one of the most glar. and obvious lacks in the incoming freshman was a sense of agency about their own thoughts. Mm, mm-hmm. . So they came in having been trained to write essays and how to even do research online or use the, you know, the library correctly. [00:25:18] Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . But they were always trying to find out, but what did I really wanna hear from them? Yeah. What was the angle I hope they would take? And so we. All kinds of writing activities and writing on the board and small group sharing because my goal, Was to hear something genuine from each student. [00:25:35] I needed to hear how did this idea land for you? And if the idea hasn't landed for you yet, I don't wanna hear from you. Like, don't just turn in an essay. Yes. And so part of the training in high school, especially if you've got homeschoolers in this audience, but even in regular high school mm-hmm. . To give agency to a child's voice, and one of the few ways they can feel [00:26:00] they have a voice is opposing your voice. [00:26:03] So even though you think to yourself, This is a dangerous idea, , I want you to step back and think how cool that they felt that they could take the risk to tell me this crazy idea that I would never want them to believe. Because what they're saying to you is, I'm entertaining. The thought world that counters the moral center of this family. [00:26:27] Maren: Yes. I love that. And actually, that's one of the things I was just gonna ask you about, Julie, because I just watched one of your. Instagram reels about encouraging parents to argue with their kids. [00:26:36] So this, I think this is a great example of [00:26:40] Julie: encouraging critical thinking. Oh, it totally is. And I wanna give credit to one of my staff members because this morning I was having this meeting with Ramona and Ramona said, Julie, one of my kids is in your brave writer movie class on dystopian movies, and she. [00:26:56] The dystopian genre . And I told her, [00:27:00] Take that class cuz it's gonna have your best writing. Yeah. And so she's in there just hating these movies. They're watching them as a family and having huge arguments about them. And I was like, That totally reminds me of when my kids' dad and my kids argued about Nacho Libre for two long, Oh my gosh. [00:27:18] In the middle of summer, on our back deck after a barbecue, just dissecting the characterizations, arguing over whether or not this was a good movie. And so I think we sometimes forget that kids, they love that idea of being an. They love the feeling of being able to take an adult model of something and then shred it. [00:27:38] My son, Jake, totally, as a great example, he today, just to give kind of context, he's a human rights lawyer who works for the in Central Africa Republic. [00:27:47] Maren: Wow. So you need to be a critical thinker for, for that job. [00:27:49] Julie: Oh heavens yes. Went to Columbia Law School. Right. So he, he knows how to think, but I remember in junior or in, when he was a junior in high school, he watched this one movie, Some of [00:28:00] your, your listeners could even look it up. [00:28:01] It's called Zeitgeist. It was a thing in the mid two thousands. Okay. It's basically a massive critique of capitalism and it really does promote sort of a communist worldview and you know, eradicating the monetary system, et cetera. And I remember he came to my ex-husband when we were married, my husband and I at the time, And he's like, Mom, this is how the world needs to be. [00:28:23] But we watched it and his dad was saying to me, Oh no, Jacob's gonna end up in this horrible ti world of weird conspiracy theorists with the Illuminati, you know? Oh, totally. And I said, You know what, Actually, John, this is amazing. Not only is he watching it, he's telling us he's watching it, and he is critiquing the system that feels. [00:28:47] Air, like water. Like he didn't know this was a system Yeah. To critique until he heard there was a critique. Like you can criticize money. What, what a thought. Right. He had never known Right. [00:29:00] To do that. Yeah. And so we just leaned in. We just asked more questions, watched the movie, agreed with what we could raise questions about what seemed inconsistent, but we didn't like attack it. [00:29:10] It was more like, Is that working anywhere in the world? You know, like ask kinds of questions. And he evolved through it. He didn't stay there. Of course, yes. It was like a starting place for critique. [00:29:22] Maren: I think we have to remember that our kids aren't, aren't going to stay in their thoughts for the rest of their lives. [00:29:28] They are, their, their brains continue to develop and it's really the practice of critical thinking. It's the practice of learning. It's the, the, the practice of curiosity and synthesizing and having conversations and growing. That's what they take. To the next level of their lives. A thousand percent. Yeah. [00:29:49] They don't take this one topic and just, you know, think this is life [00:29:55] Julie: for the rest of their lives. Well, it's easy to do that experiment with yourself. Yes. How [00:30:00] many of your really hard one positions that you took at age 15 or 18 are still identical with how you think about the world today? [00:30:09] Maren: I'm so glad they're. [00:30:10] No, [00:30:11] Julie: No no. And in fact, how many I, I ask this in conferences all the time. So if I have a room of a hundred people, I say, How many of you hold the same exact beliefs as your parents in the areas of sex, politics, education, parenting, and food and exercise? And out of a hundred people, only 10 raise their hand. [00:30:31] Wow. So what you need to know is that same ratio is gonna be true in your family. There might be one kid who. Agrees or aligns with you generally, but there are gonna be a whole bunch who don't, and that doesn't mean you can't have a relationship with them. And it doesn't mean they've abandoned their morals. [00:30:49] It means they're thinking deeply. [00:30:52] Maren: That is so, so, so true. And I I just think what a skill. What a skill to learn and to not have to be [00:31:00] perfect at when you're 15 or 18 or even probably 21 . I mean, this is gonna take a while. This is not a perfection. This is not something that's gonna get perfected. [00:31:09] Early on and it, it, it might not ever, I mean, this is, yeah, this is a process. I was just thinking today, you know, I , you know, made a few mistakes. I'm 46, so, [00:31:19] Julie: Yeah. I mean, yeah, I'm, I'm 60. I, I've changed my mind countless times and if, and you will continue to, will continue to, and also you can't anticipate what will become an. [00:31:32] So none of us knew what a pandemic was. None of us knew how to respond to a pandemic. We were all jumping into our communities to tell us, these people are trustworthy. These people are not. This information's reliable, this information is not. Yeah. And we were using our blind loyalty to community to guide us because none of us has the expertise to evaluate. [00:31:57] Pandemics epidemics, vaccines, [00:32:00] public health economics, that are the result of this, you know, guidelines for how you run a company. All of that was suddenly up for grabs. Yeah. And when that happens, we stop thinking critically. We actually jump in with both feet to our safest communities. And what I've had to train myself to do, and this is something I write about in the book, Is notice that, Yes. [00:32:25] So when I'm scrolling through Facebook and some high school person I haven't talked to in 35 years, post an article and I think, Oh my gosh, that is the dumbest article I've ever seen. When I feel that smugness come up, yes, I know. I'm not critically thinking, Yeah, I am self protecting in that moment, critical thinking at that moment is, Oh, this is from someone I don't typically trust. [00:32:48] This is a person I haven't thought about in 30 years. Right. I don't really know what she's like anymore. She thought this was worth posting on Facebook. That's interesting. Mm-hmm. . I wonder what that says about her. I wonder if I've ever read this [00:33:00] article with this writer through the lens of this other person. [00:33:03] What, what might there be to learn? In reading it. Now, to be honest, I can't do that a lot. I, it takes so much energy to do that. But to keep myself honest, I try to do it fairly regularly. I try to give myself access to viewpoints that make me cringe. Mm-hmm. and I don't do it to deconstruct them. Yes, I do it to understand them. [00:33:29] Maren: That is so good. And it's also alternatively, when we, I think read, read articles or listen to something that is from somebody we normally do agree with. Like we, I think we also also have to think critically like, Yep, do I agree with this? Or what part of it is, Do I do I think is, you know, real or you know, is there part, are there parts I. [00:33:49] Push back on a little bit or something. So I think it's so good to do both. Absolutely. [00:33:54] Julie: Great point, Miller. Yeah. [00:33:56] Maren: Yeah. Okay. So I wanna go back to some of your work, Julie, because I [00:34:00] know Ev, everything you've always put out there, you've always encouraged us to make it our own. And I think you've, from the beginning, have encouraged us all to think critically. [00:34:09] You've inspired. Us all to do poetry, tea, time, , and I'm not kidding you. I have my oldest reads poetry by herself now all the time, and I, I attribute it all to poetry, tea time. I really do. So that you so much, but I know that you also encourage everyone to make. Their own special thing. So what is, What do you think is the key to those magical learning moments like poetry, tea time, or something else that we [00:34:41] Julie: have come up with? [00:34:43] I think when we're talking about learning, what we're actually talking about is a meaningful connection or relationship. To what is being learned. And so just to deconstruct poetry tee time for a moment. Yeah. I knew that adults hated poetry , [00:35:00] and for some reason my whole life I've loved it. I think because I'm innately a writer, and so any manipulation of language has been interesting to me. [00:35:08] My mother also gave me a a rummy card game that was all. So when I was young, I knew all the names of poets, which then later made me wanna read their poems. My father, my grandfather, gave me a poetry book that was a, I'll read to you if you read to me book. So I would share it with my brother or a friend who came over, or my mother, and we'd read poems to each other cuz of the nature of this book. [00:35:30] Awesome. So my early childhood was really warm towards poetry and then song lyrics became my obsession. Bruce Springsteen, Jackson Brown, Tom Petty, they all write such great storytelling and such great lyrics. So as I was raising kids, I was disturbed to discover that adults didn't like poetry. Oh. And I was so afraid that would happen to my children. [00:35:53] And I was on this email list back in the day in the nineties, and somebody shared that she was teaching geography to [00:36:00] her kids, but they didn't like geography. So she started making tea and cookies for when they studied geography. Yes. And suddenly they all liked geography. And I was. Well, I can do that. [00:36:11] We, I drink tea every day. Exactly. And so I created this whole British tea time and added poetry to it. And so I think really what we're saying is when something seems opaque or difficult, we want to tie it to something that automatically creates a sense of warmth and pleasure and openness. So I wish someone had done that for me with. [00:36:34] That that did not happen with Math , but with my kids, because it never happened to me with math. Mm-hmm. , I put so much more energy into manipulatives and games and cards and dices. That's so great. Yes. And even though my kids would all say, and they will say this openly, that math was not my strong suit. [00:36:54] What is ironic is all five of them have been very [00:37:00] successful in math and they, they came out, two of them are programmers and three of them did calculus and I mean, that's amazing. You did that. Good job, Julia. I take credit, it doesn't matter what they think. No, but honestly, the early years to me are what were the foundation for that. [00:37:18] And then I hired tutors and they did take some math at school. But my point is, I think what you're asking. How do we create the meaningful sense of connection that makes me warm and open this something that feels intimidating. And for me, that would be a great criteria for creating magic in learning. [00:37:37] Maren: That sounds amazing. I mean, I, I could think about that in every scenario. Like, what is gonna cause this to be a warm. Cozy or warm and safe [00:37:48] Julie: environment. Yes, and and stimulating enough to be interested, right? So, right. You might make tea and cookies to go with math, but if your child's already resistant or sees no purpose in it, they'll eat the [00:38:00] cookies, drink the tea, and still hate math. [00:38:02] Part of what made poetry special is that poetry's easy. You just read it out loud and everybody finds pleasure. But for something that's more of a struggle, I think part of what we wanna do is admit that it's going to be challenging. Provide a lot of support, create as many real life connections as possible, and then do it in small doses so that we don't create a toxic relationship where we're dreading and it feels tiring and I don't wanna do it. [00:38:31] Maren: I love that. Yep. So, so, so true. Okay, so another thing that we, both Angela and I both love about your book. So many other things that you've created is just the activities, but this specific, this book specifically just has so many practical ideas. And a whole book can be intimidating, honestly. Yes. [00:38:50] Sometimes, you know, but if, if you sprinkled out in, you know, throughout the book so many activities that if we. Just pick a few of those activities. I [00:39:00] mean, it would, it could change our home school and I just love that you did that. Did you, did you know you wanted to share practical activities Yes. And ideas when you wrote the [00:39:10] Julie: book? [00:39:10] Because I just feel that way about everything. Right? Like, I just feel like. We spend so much time reading nonfiction books for information and ideas, but the practical implementation is where transformation occurs. Yeah, Yeah. And for me, a lot of these practices are things that sort of, I stumbled on with my own kids because I was obsessed with thinking. [00:39:32] Yes, I was obsessed with it. So, you know, in that very first chapter where I'm talking about viewpoint and says who, and you know, are we hearing the fairy tale from the Wolf's point of view or the narrator's point of view, or the protagonist point of view? Yes. The reason that I am obsessed with that is that that is the foundation of all critical thinking. [00:39:52] Whose viewpoint Yes. Am I listening to? And what is the criteria by which they create that viewpoint? Mm-hmm. . So we can start that [00:40:00] at age. Totally. Yeah, of course. We would watch these Disney movies and we would analyze the characters to death. Why do we love Ursula? Even though she's the bad character? What is it about her that's compelling? [00:40:13] Why is she more interesting than the good characters? And why would Disney do that? Right? And then you just get into this conversation. What is her sob story? Do we believe it? Does she have some justification for being this angry? Ooh, that's so great. These are great questions. And honestly, they sort of forecast what they'll be encountering in college when they're analyzing. [00:40:35] Absolutely. Lenin versus you know Decart. . [00:40:39] Maren: I was just gonna say, because it's really easy at five and. To any age, but especially at five or younger where there's this dichotomy, like you said, bad and good things aren't bad and good, and it's, it's really easy to push that thought through, you know, And it's, that can be very scary. [00:40:59] And to [00:41:00] understand that the bad. The bad guys or bad people in movies may have some underlying things going on. What a great discussion and deep thinking for a five year [00:41:13] Julie: old that Yeah, and you know, they're, they can do that. They're dealing with siblings. Right. How much bullying happens in a family? [00:41:19] Just an absolute ton. Mm-hmm. . Yep. And so if we are only ever treating people in binaries as bad and good, we can easily harden our own families into the good kids, the not good kids. We start scapegoating a child for being disruptive or picking at each other or being loud, and we start treating that child differently because we see them not through a. [00:41:42] Prism of factors, but only through this lens of obedient or cooperative or, you know, creating pleasure for the adult at ease. Right. Versus the child who's taxing and hard. Right? Totally. Yes. And so that's another reason we do this. We want siblings in particular to see a [00:42:00] 360 degree picture of this child. [00:42:02] They have to share a table with, watch a movie, with share a computer, with go on vacations with Right [00:42:09] Maren: or parents too. Their view of their. Good parent, bad parent, right? Yeah. And it's easy to just say that [00:42:14] Julie: you're the bad parent. [00:42:16] Maren: Yeah. You make me do these things. And there's a lot around that too, that they can, they can think criti critically about, which is awesome. [00:42:23] So if there's one thing parents could implement today right now in regards to raising a critical thinker. What do [00:42:30] Julie: you think that would be? Oh, I love this question. So I'm gonna give you a little story by way of example. This is a practice that you can try. So a lot of people think critical thinking is like opinions about social issues and politics, but that that is just one feature. [00:42:46] Critical thinking is literally every decision you make all day. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , Which, you know, which way is the fastest to get downtown without traffic is a critical thinking decision. Absolutely. What to eat for. Do I dessert? First, critical [00:43:00] thinking decisions. What we want to do is invite our children to make more of those judgment calls using their own research and data, rather than usurping that role for them. [00:43:13] So I'll give you a a very clear example. Imagine you have an eight year old, it's time for dinner. Mm-hmm. , you say to that child, Hey honey, it's time to wash your hands. It's time for. And this child who has cooperated with this, you know, command for a year sure. Suddenly says, Yeah, I'm not going to, I don't want to [00:43:30] Most parents have one of two ways they respond. There's the authoritarian model which says you have to cuz I said so, right? Mm-hmm. . So you don't really, you could even give a reason, but mostly you're just like, Dude, I'm the mom. You're not. Go wash your hands. The second way is what I call the manipulative obedience model. [00:43:49] What most periods today call cooperation. And what they do instead of requiring obedience is they manipulate it. So what they say is, Oh honey, you must wash your hands. [00:44:00] They're these things called germs and they live on your fingers. And when you touch the food and then eat it, it will go in your body and make you sick. [00:44:06] This is what science tell tells us. Therefore, you must wash your hands right now. In that second model are very proud of that model. Yes. , they're always like, Oh, I would never ask them to do something. I don't explain , but basically what they're doing is they're giving a bunch of information the child doesn't care about. [00:44:25] Nope. And then requiring the child to accept that as better information then the personal experience they're having right now, which is, I don't wanna wash my hands. Exactly. So what I recommend is this. You can't do this every day. Some days you gotta throw 'em in a car seat without an argument and strap 'em in and go. [00:44:41] Mm. But once in a while, go down the rabbit hole. So when your child says, I don't wanna wash my hands, you say, Oh, well that's interesting. Tell me more about that. Why? Why don't you wanna wash your hands? I don't know. I just don't wanna, Is it the temperature of the water? Let me get a thermometer. [00:45:00] Let's measure the temperature, see which temperature is most comfortable for you. [00:45:03] Ooh, I love that. So you start doing that and the child's like, I still hate it. Oh, okay. So it's not the temperature. Is it the wetness? Yeah. I hate how it feels on my hands. Should we try hand sanitizer or it dries faster? Oh no, that's sticky. Well, that's interesting. So here's where I am. I have this belief about germs, but you don't like washing your hands. [00:45:26] I wonder if there's any other information out there about germs and hands. Mm-hmm. . So you do a little research together online, show 'em, and maybe you discover that heat kills germs. And so you say to your child, How would you feel about not washing your hands? And we just blow dry them with a hot blow dryer, , and the child's like that sounds good. [00:45:43] And so you do that or the child still doesn't want to because here's what might be underlying it, your belief in germ. Is actually not a belief. It's propaganda. You've accepted and here's how I know. Didn't your child just eat Cheerios off the [00:46:00] floor without washing their hands? Right? Didn't you at Target watch the baby, spit out the pacifier? [00:46:05] It landed on the floor of Target, you picked it up, sucked the germs off , and then put that pacifier in your baby's mouth. Do you actually believe in germs or you just doing the parental propaganda program where you pass on information, right? Designed to coerce my child. So what I recommend at that point, Either one of these accommodations. [00:46:27] Okay? We're gonna measure the temperature you like it at, You know, 72. We're always gonna wait till it's that temperature or hand sanitizer, or the blow dryer. Or maybe you just roll the dice. You say, You know what? You're right. I don't even know if I believe my own rhetoric. Should we find out if you get sick? [00:46:44] Are you willing for that to be a possible outcome of this? Let's try it for a week. See what happens. Sure. And then see what happens. Right? Right. Give your child meaningful opportunities to collect data, to ask better questions, [00:47:00] to evaluate their experience. To roll the dice and see what the outcome of their hypothesis is. [00:47:07] Now at the start of covid, could you have done this? No. Right, Because we were terrified and we had information our kids didn't have. So at that point, going online, showing them the germs, explaining how people are in the hospital, giving them a meaningful understanding of why you have this level of fear is a great idea, right? [00:47:26] But on the day to day, That's really not what's animating you. Right? And so I think that's where we have to do a better job of interrogating our own positions and our kids give us a chance to do that. [00:47:38] Maren: Right. And we have to be also, I think careful about imposing our own expectations on their critical thinking. [00:47:46] That's right. Because a five year old may not, even after all that information and all the testing and all the, everything you've done, they might. Yeah. I still don't wanna wash my hands . Right? Because they're not ready for that critical thinking at in that [00:48:00] moment. That's right at for that thing. And that's just where they're at. [00:48:02] You can't force their brain to develop anymore than where they're at right [00:48:06] Julie: now. No. And that's where, like Dr. Becky Gooden side, Dr. Becky was, is so right on. I'm reading that book right now. Oh, oh, so good. So good. So when. , ask a child to cooperate with your better judgment. Mm-hmm. , you are spending capital in that relationship. [00:48:26] Maren: You are spending capital. Absolutely. [00:48:28] Julie: And so that's why we want to make some of these demands fewer, you know, we want minimal demands. Yes. And then we want to explore when we can. A child's opposition because maybe it's just that the child was really engaged in a movie and dinner happened and they don't wanna take the time to wash their hands. [00:48:47] Exactly. And dinner delayed. Can we pause the movie? There could be factors here that have nothing to do with critical thinking about hand washing and just convenience that you are tempted to [00:48:59] Maren: overlook. [00:49:00] Absolutely. And it it, like you said, it also requires us to do our own critical thinking. That's right. [00:49:05] On washing hands or. Eating at 6:00 PM Why does that have to happen, ? That's right. You know there's so many things we can think critically of, and we can be an example of critical thinking. And while our kids might not be like, Oh, mom, you're such a great critical thinker today, , I'm going to follow your example. [00:49:27] The, the consistent, critical thinking every day is going to pay. Them, You know, witnessing that every day and seeing how you are transforming and learning from your own critical thinking. You, our kids can't really help but do that because [00:49:46] Julie: that's their example. In fact, I have a great story about this. [00:49:51] My son, Jacob, that I mentioned before, when he was in high school, he got very interested in this one social issue that was on the ballot. I'm not gonna name which one it [00:50:00] was just to keep everyone neutral. Mm-hmm. . And so he came to me and he is like, Mom, I can't vote yet, but I did all this research and I wanted to tell you why I think you should vote pro. [00:50:09] So he went through almost a PowerPoint level presentation. He had data and research in his computer was open. Yeah, it was really ad. He was like 16 and it was really good. And at the end I was like, Jake, that makes a lot of sense. I totally get where you're coming from. Thank you for sharing all that with me. [00:50:26] He says, So are you gonna vote pro? I said, No, I'm still voting Con. Yeah. And his eyes squirted tears. And he said, Mom, I count on you to be logical . And I said, Wow. Well, I appreciate you saying that, and I don't wanna discount what you just shared with me, but you, what you shared with me didn't account for all of my concerns. [00:50:51] It accounted for a lot of concerns you have. It didn't account for mine. But don't worry about that because this is my. And I don't have to agree [00:51:00] with you to appreciate the strength of your argument. And I think over time your side's gonna win. But I haven't personally been persuaded yet. Yep. And it was a very difficult moment for him. [00:51:12] Fast forward, you know, he's 30 and I'm older, and interestingly enough, We have just the best conversations. He ended up being the research validator for this book. I let him look. Wow. I paid him to do it. He went through and made sure that my arguments were actually built from solid foundations of evidence and, you know, make sure I wasn't quoting some spurious researcher who mm-hmm. [00:51:38] who happened to find their way onto a webpage I didn't vet. And so just to show. He saw me as a logical person, first of all. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , which I think is a beautiful credit. Secondly, we had to learn to live with the tension of disagreement, even when we were both being logical. Yep. And then third, we've built a relationship over time that makes it possible for both of us to [00:52:00] respect our capacity to do research and find answers. [00:52:03] And I think if there's anything I would want for parents, that's what it is. It's not agreement, it's not a. It's this dialogical respect for each person's capacity to show up with their own viewpoint while respecting the other person. [00:52:20] Maren: It's beautifully said. Julie. Thank you so much, and I think that's a perfect place to stop for today, even though I could talk to you for another hour as usual. [00:52:29] But I just appreciate your insight and your encouragement that, you know, we've always, I've always relied on your encouragement through my whole parenting and homeschool journey, so I just thank you [00:52:41] Julie: so much. Well, you do a great job both on this podcast and with your family, and so I. That you are continuing to put out such good information to your people as you [00:52:52] Maren: as well. [00:52:52] All right. Take care. [00:52:54] Julie: Thank you. Bye. [00:52:56] Angela: All right. Let's move on to our lt [00:53:00] Ws. Yes. Marron. What are you loving this week? Okay. I am [00:53:03] Maren: loving a book that I actually happen to talk with Julie about Very Oh, very shortly. I mean, we just like, I think Julie just kind of mentioned it in our conversation. You may have. I picked up on it, but I'm actually reading it right now. [00:53:18] And so it was fun to hear Julie mention it. And it's called Good Inside A Guide to Becoming the Parent You want to Be. And it's by Becky Kennedy, Dr. Becky . And it is just a [00:53:32] Angela: great it is [00:53:34] Maren: confirming. All of the, all of the healthy things we want to do in our parenting. [00:53:42] And I wanna say homeschooling too. Yeah. I think this is a great book for homeschoolers. It's just a great book. So I just, I, I can't say enough good things about Dr. Becky. She's my new favorite. . Yeah. I feel like she says things first. I was gonna say Angela, she says things that we. [00:54:00] Yeah, I was first gonna say maybe better. [00:54:03] Mm-hmm. , But actually I'm giving ourselves credit, Angela, and I'm gonna just gonna say, she says it in it with a twist, you know, that's, Yeah. On with her specialty, you know, as a doctor for, And I think we have this twist as a specialty, you know, as parents and educators and you know, we [00:54:17] Angela: have, but we're, we're really share, We [00:54:20] Maren: really share so much of the same message. [00:54:22] Yes. [00:54:23] Angela: And so Good. I'm loving. Yeah. You know, people need to hear things in different ways and from different people and I, so I fully support like different people, books and podcast and whatever. Yeah. But she I have not read her book, but I do want to mm-hmm. because what I've really liked about her is you know, she doesn't profess to. [00:54:45] Always do it right, . Exactly. Yep. And she describes that in the book too for sure. Yes. Like she's just coming from a place of like, Look, I'm in the trenches with you too. Like, I get it. Yeah. Things are triggering, things are hard. And [00:55:00] so she's really Supportive in that way. It feels like it feels reachable. [00:55:04] It feels attainable. Yes. [00:55:06] Maren: And it is good to hear from, you know, a, a, a doctor, a psychologist, you know, who really understands the brain and how it just very intricately. [00:55:16] Angela: Yes. And so it is, it's, it's science [00:55:18] Maren: that this is really good parenting and, and it's effective and it's just healthy. Mm-hmm. , it's just healthy for. [00:55:26] Physically, mentally, emotionally, [00:55:27] Angela: it's all healthy. . Yeah. And her premises, it's called Good Inside because Good inside. Yeah. Because we are all good inside. Yep. Kids too. We're all like wanting to do our Yes. Do good and do our best, so. Yep. Yeah, so I love that. I love that. Yes. Thank you for [00:55:42] Maren: sharing that. [00:55:43] Yes, of course. I'm, I'm excited for you to read it. I know you will, [00:55:46] Angela: and it'll be fun. I'll probably listen, Are you listening? I'm listening. Yeah. Yeah. Does she read? Yes. Okay. Yeah, that'll be what I'll do. All right, Angela, what do you loving this week? I am loving something that I think I may have talked to you about in private, [00:56:00] but now I would like the whole world to know about it. [00:56:01] Yes. It's called Calm aid. Oh, yes. And this is a natural supplement for anxiety, overwhelming stress. And you can get it on Amazon and you can get it cheaply. So we have subscribed and saved to it. . That is [00:56:16] Maren: amazing. You know, it's a, you know, it's a winner. You know, we need it. Subscribe and saved . Yes. [00:56:21] Angela: And the reason why I like it is because I was. [00:56:25] You know I've been on medication for anxiety and depression. Some of my kids have been on things at different times. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. for different things. And so we have a psychiatrist that we talk to. Yeah. And the psychiatrist was telling me that this calm aid is over the counter, right? Mm-hmm. [00:56:42] it's an over the counter thing, but. In many countries, like European countries, she said it's their first line of defense. For something like anxiety or depression before you, they try other medications. Wow. And so this is just their first go [00:57:00] to. It's real. It's a real, It really works. Yeah. All it is is lavender. [00:57:04] It's lavender. It's a lavender pill. That's all that's in. It is lavender. It's concentrated. It's concentrated. Right. Small capsule that is easy to swallow. Okay. That's what I would need. Yep. Right. So it's in a small, easy to swallow capsule. It's just lavender so you can feel good knowing mm-hmm. , that that's all you're taking. [00:57:22] Yeah. But it really does help. Like I have been taking it every morning. And on the days that I take it, I can tell that I feel much calmer, much less stressed. On the package it says you should take it twice a day. So I think if you were you know, really wanting to be more serious, you could take it twice a day if you were unsure about trying medication. [00:57:42] This could be a good place to start. If you were unsure for one of your kids, this could, this could be a good place to start for one of them too. I just think we more people need to know about it because I had, I had never heard about it until the psychiatrist recommended it, and I just think like, and it gets all these great reviews, so I just think, why [00:58:00] don't, maybe more people already knew about it and I just didn't. [00:58:02] Yeah, right. But. It has really been helpful for me and some of my kids. I was gonna say maybe [00:58:08] Maren: it's everybody in Europe who's, who's given it all those high stars. I mean, that's, that's amazing. [00:58:13] Angela: Yeah. So, Well, I'm [00:58:16] Maren: so glad that you, have you found something for, you know, for Totally. There's so many of, I mean, there are so many of us I think that who could use. [00:58:23] Something like that without a prescription would be [00:58:25] Angela: great. Mm-hmm. so great. So thank you. And it's just, it's a first, It's, I know it's hard to try medication if you haven't. It is before, it's a hard first step. And so like this, this is something you could try before that if you Yeah, [00:58:37] Maren: yeah. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . [00:58:39] We wanna thank our three sponsors, Blossom and Root Out School and Night Zookeeper. Be sure to check out their links in our [00:58:49] Angela: show. This podcast is created and hosted by Angela Se and Marrin Gors. [00:58:55] We are listeners supported to get extra content and the Back to School Summit free with your [00:59:00] membership. Go to patreon.com/homeschool on refined. Subscribe to our newsletter and get our free top 100 inclusive booklist@homeschoolonfi.com slash newsletter. You can find Marron on Instagram at unrefined marron and at Always Learning with Marron, and you can find Angela. [00:59:18] Unrefined. Angela

Join us as we talk about what to do when kids push back. When our kids push back, it can look disrespectful, mean or lazy... and their communication can be sub-par. We're here to help you excavate what's underneath that non-preferred behavior and really support you and your kids in getting what you all need. We'll also talk about if it's ever ok to push our kids. Fall 2022 Season Sponsors We are so grateful to our Fall 2022 Season Sponsors. Use the links below for their special offerings: Blossom & Root and use code HSUnrefined15 for 15% off your purchase Outschool and use code Unrefined for $20 off your first class Night Zookeeper for a 7-day, risk-free trial, as well as 50% off an annual subscription LTWs Maren: Blue Diamond Sweet Thai Chili Almonds Angela: The Ordinary Peeling Solution Connect with us! Visit our website Sign up for our newsletter and get our Top 100 Inclusive Book List We are listener supported! Support us on Patreon Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and see video episodes now on Youtube Angela on Instagram: @unrefinedangela | Maren on Instagram: @unrefinedmaren and @alwayslearningwithmaren Email us any questions or feedback at homeschoolunrefined@gmail.com Complete Episode Transcript [00:00:09] Hi, we're Maren and Angela of Homeschool, Unrefined. Over the past 25 years, we've been friends, teachers, homeschool parents, and podcasters together. With our master's degrees and 20 years combined homeschooling experience, we're here to rethink homeschooling, learning, and education with an inclusive and authentic lens. [00:00:30] At Homeschool, Unrefined, we prioritize things like giving yourself credit, building strong connections, respectful parenting, interest led playing, and learning. Learning differences, mental health, self-care, listening to and elevating LGBTQ plus and BIPOC voices. We are here to encourage and support you. [00:00:52] Whether you're a new homeschooler, a veteran, you love curriculum, you're an unschooler. Whether all your kids are at home or all [00:01:00] your kids are in school or somewhere in between, wherever you are on your journey, we are the voice in your head telling you, You're doing great and so are your kids. This episode is 1 96 when kids push back. [00:01:13] We'll talk about what to do when kids push back and whether it's ever okay to push your kids, and then we'll end like we always do with our lt. Ws loving this. Something new that we wanted to tell you about this season is we are doing transcripts for every single episode. [00:01:33] Mm-hmm. . Those you can find on our website or in the podcast app that you're using in the show notes. We're also doing video episodes, so if you'd rather watch us on video, you can do that too. Yeah. Yeah, and links to those are in the show notes and it's just on our YouTube page. We are starting something new this season where we are bringing you three new sponsors for the entire fall season. [00:01:58] We were very intentional about [00:02:00] who we chose for sponsors, and we really appreciate you taking the time to learn about them because we think they're just really good companies and they're giving us discount codes, so you'll wanna listen for those. We are so happy to work hard on this podcast and we appreciate the financial support in making it happen. [00:02:17] We know from experience that finding a homeschool history curriculum tells that tells stories from multiple perspectives is an almost impossible task. That's why we're excited about the work Blossom and Root is doing. Blossom and Root is a nature focused secular homeschool curriculum focusing on creativity. [00:02:40] Science, nature, literature, and the arts. Blossom and root has been gently encouraging in supporting homeschooling families around the globe since 2016. Blossom and Root currently offers curricula for pre-K through fifth grade with new levels being added in the future. Additionally, a [00:03:00] three volume inclusive US history curriculum told from a variety of viewpoints is currently in development. [00:03:08] As of August, 2022, volume one is available for purchase and volume two is a available on presale all profits from this history curriculum. A River of Voices will be used to support storytellers and artists from historically excluded communities. You can find samples, scope, and sequences and information about each of their levels. [00:03:33] Blossom and root.com. You can also find them on Instagram at Blossom and Route. Blossom and Root has created a special discount for our listeners. Use the code Hs. Unrefined 15 at checkout for 15% off your purchase. Biology, Coloring Club, Math Frog, Life Cycle Grammar, Star Wars, the Old Republic. These are just a sampling of classes our kids have taken throughout school.[00:04:00] [00:04:00] We know that kids who love to learn don't just prepare for the future. They create it. That's why Out School has reimagined online learning to empower kids and teens to expand their creativity, wonder and knowledge. Empathetic, passionate teachers encourage learners ages three to 18 to explore their interests, connect with diverse peers from around the world, and take an active role in leading their learning out. [00:04:24] School has created a world filled with endless possibilities for every schooling journey. Explore over 140,000 fun and flexible live online classes to find the right fit for your family and join us as we set learning. Sign up today at Out schooler.me/homeschool unrefined, and get up to $20 off your first class when you enroll with the code. [00:04:49] Unrefined teaching creative writing and reading in a way that is fun and accessible is a necessity. That's where Night Zookeeper comes in. Is your child a reluctant [00:05:00] writer? Do they struggle with reading? If your answer to either of these questions is yes, the Night Zookeeper may be just what you're looking for. [00:05:08] Night Zookeeper is an online learning program for children aged six to 12 years. That uses a gamified and creative approach to help to keep kids engaged and focused on developing awesome reading and writing skills, all while having fun at the same time. Some of the features we love include the educational games, the personalized feedback on writing from real tutors. [00:05:34] And the super safe community pages where children can work with each other and learn together. If Night Zookeeper sounds like the perfect learning program for your child, you can try it for free by clicking on the link in the show notes. When you register, you'll get a seven day risk free trial, as well as a huge 50% off an annual subscription. [00:05:54] That's a great deal if you ask me. [00:05:56] All right, Marin. We are here [00:06:00] today for our main topic, which is about kids pushing back. Mm-hmm. . And this is, we chose this topic because we hear about it all the time. We hear, we hear about it all the time, and we hear it happening all the time. . Yeah. We experience it, we hear it happening. Yep. Yeah, , we experience it and hear that others are experiencing it often. [00:06:21] It may not be worded exactly like my child is pushing back, but it might be like, My kid doesn't wanna do this thing, or this subject is stressful, or something like that. Mm-hmm. . And so we wanted to talk about it, or it could be my kid. Being disrespectful or my kid is being really whiny, , you know, that's what it can, can sound like often. [00:06:44] Right, right. Or lazy. Or Right, right, right. Something, something like that. And we, we know that this is a common occurrence in for homeschool families. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. at different, lots of different ages and stages. [00:07:00] And we know that it's really tough, . Right. And I think it's probably, I mean, I think we know it's even more common probably in homeschool than if our kids were going to school. [00:07:12] They're with the person they trust and feel the most comfortable with. Our kids are gonna be their true selves in front of the, you know, their most, their most, the safest environment they have, which is for sure your home . For sure. For sure. And so really they're being vulnerable too when they're sharing, when they're, when they're pushing back, right? [00:07:33] I mean, you guys, we all know that kids Break down when they come home or when they're home because they feel it's a safe place to do that. And so it makes sense that this would also happen during homeschool time. And I do think it's one of the challenges that homeschool parents face because I think If you've heard about kids in school or if you've experienced your child in school, you know that sometimes they, there isn't that breakdown, there isn't that pushback. [00:07:59] Right.[00:08:00] With teachers or even you may have experienced it with like them doing a sports class or a co-op class or something. Yeah. But then when they're at home with you, they really do push back. And so I think that can be a special homeschool challenge. Oh yes. Yes, for sure. And it, it is true though, and I do think this happens too when my kids do go to do one of those classes or whatever and come back, they can sometimes talk about how much, you know, they can tell me how hard that thing was too. [00:08:30] Yeah, yeah. You know, But it's not until they come home sometimes, For sure. For sure. Yep. Yep. And so I think what can be really hard about this is you have had a vision of what your homeschool might look like or what you might be doing for a particular subject. Or you might have a vision of us all being like, happy together, or this be a really cozy setting. [00:08:52] And so you have this vision, you've spent time thinking about it, you've spent. Time planning, you spent [00:09:00] energy planning, you've probably spent money. Mm-hmm. on different curriculum or like different setup things and you know, your kid like may have been on board with whatever you're do you were doing at one time too. [00:09:13] Like they may have said like, Exactly, yeah, this is what I wanna do. Mm-hmm. and it may have worked for a while and then all of a sudden it doesn't. So I think that's what makes it especially hard is that you can feel like. Yes, it can felt very confusing. Cause we, you're like, I'm so in, we're so in tune with each other. [00:09:30] We did the whole thing that we, you know, like in our in our back to school summer, we talk a lot about having this meeting at the beginning of the year. You know? Yeah. Talk about your hopes and dreams and be really collaborative with each other. You may have done all of that . Yeah. Right. And you're like, I am a really tuning into my kid and I'm doing this thing. [00:09:47] Mm-hmm. , then they're still just like, No, I don't wanna do that. . Yeah. Oh, that's so hard. It's heartbreaking. Right, right. Or then it may also be just a thing that that is a real big priority to [00:10:00] you. It's a really big priority to you. It's so important. This is something that we need to do and, and you, and maybe you're thinking, but I've like I've, you know, like. [00:10:11] Changed so many of my plans and or, you know, like I've, we've worked so much on other things, like, I've allowed you to do these things. I've let you do this. I've let you do this. Just do this one thing for me. Please. Just do this one thing for me. Yeah. I mean, and so it feels like like, oh, they're just, you know, it could be just, they're. [00:10:29] It may seem like they are spoiled or, you know, like you're like, I've given you everything . Yeah. Everything you want, You, you get to do so much. You have so much freedom. And then I just want you to do this one thing. Mm-hmm. , come on. You know? Mm-hmm. . So I think that there is a pain point there for sure. Yeah. [00:10:44] Especially when you've put so much thought and planning into it and money. Right. [00:10:50] And so the way that our kids are pushing back is probably not like, Hey, mom, ideal. Mm-hmm. , can we have a meeting? Yeah. I'm not[00:11:00] , I'm enjoy Do math right now or something. Right? It's not gonna look like that. It's gonna look like something hard. It's gonna look, They might look like they're cry. They might be crying. [00:11:10] Mm-hmm. , they might be refusing, they might be manipulating you. They might be you know, they might look like manipulation off. They could look like, Yes. Look like manipulation. They could be being disrespectful. Mm-hmm. . There are lots of things it can look like, and that's, that's okay. That's them communicating. [00:11:30] That is them communicating to you. Right, Right, right. And it's our, not our job in that moment to fix the way they're communicating to us what's wrong. I think that that is a big mistake that we all, and that might be even hard to wrap your head around right now at this moment when I'm saying it, because I think what we as parents, Wanna do is correct. [00:11:52] Like we can't perpetuate this bad behavior. Yeah. By listening to them when they're acting this way. And I [00:12:00] think that's a mistake. Parents. I think that's a mistake. Mm-hmm. , I think what we do need to say is I hear you. I see that this is not working. Yeah. Okay. I'm gonna, we're gonna work on that first. [00:12:13] I'm gonna be take responsible, you know, responsibility for what's not going well be of, because of like what I've planned and what's, what's going on here. Mm-hmm. , I'm gonna work on that. I'm gonna take responsibility for that. And, you know, like, let's, let's work together here and. Then like at a very, in a distant time, when they're, when the emotions are back to regulated mm-hmm. [00:12:35] and you've moved, you know, you've moved on emotionally from this tough situation, then you can say that's when you can work on communication skills, the way they communicated it, the way they communicated it, and it doesn't even, you don't even necessarily have to go back to rehash that. Scenario, right? [00:12:52] Cause that could just bring it all back up. It could be like, I wanna talk everybody about like, if you're ever having a problem with something, this is what you could do. You know, just moving [00:13:00] forward, here's what we can do. Yeah, yeah. Right. Just talk about it in general. In general or, Yeah, exactly. Yeah. [00:13:07] Because I think a lot of times when kids are trying to say something and it's, it comes out as disrespectful. Parents, including myself, I've done this focus on the disrespectful nature of what they're saying, Right? They do. Yes. Which is not the point, which is, which is really they're just trying to get heard trying to get heard. [00:13:26] Yep. So, And it can be tempting to do that because you're like, Wait, you shouldn't talk to me like that. Like, I don't talk to you like that. And I, we, we don't talk to each other like that, right? It can be tempting to focus on that first, but I think we really need to take a step back and be like, You know what, we'll deal with that later. [00:13:42] Right now they're trying to communicate with me that something's not working. Right? Yep. So you can say something like, Hey I hear that I see you, that you're really upset and something's not working. Mm-hmm. , can we talk about that? Mm-hmm. , or do we need to take a break right now? Cause you might need to take a break because maybe emotions are high or whatever. [00:13:59] Take a break. Let's [00:14:00] come back later and talk about it. Cuz I see that you're trying to communicate with me that something's not working. Yes. And I think what happens in that situation is you are not perpetuating the bad behavior. What you're saying is you actually don't. To act like that, I will listen to you. [00:14:13] Mm mm-hmm. . And so next time they might be like, they might actually next time or maybe in five times, I don't know. Or maybe when they're more mature, eventually they're gonna be like, actually, I don't need to put up such a fuss. My mom just listens to me. My parent just listens to me. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . So actually you are untangling that for sure. [00:14:36] That's so true, Maren, because I think a lot of people can think like, Well, I, we need to address the disrespectful, but like, I, like I just said, you know, like, we need to address this. Mm-hmm. , and it's Yeah, because it hurts, but you're doing, you're doing it in a different way. Right, Right, right. In a different. [00:14:51] You're showing them, I love you, I care about you. I see that you are hurting and let's talk about it. Yep. I love and care about you and I value you [00:15:00] no matter how you're acting, when you're really stressed out. Mm-hmm. . Yes. You know, as a child. Yeah. I mean, as adults, when we're really stressed out, we don't always act. [00:15:10] Ideally, I don't want We're adults. Yep. For adults. Yep. So our kids have not developed their brain yet. They haven't For sure. They're not even really capable. Sure. Yet. Yet. Yet. Right. They will be So when kids are pushing back, they are telling you something's not working. Mm-hmm. , It can be a variety of different things that aren't working and they might not even be able to name it. [00:15:35] They might say like, I hate. Writing or whatever, like, I hate writing, but what they might really be saying is like, it might not be the subject, it might be the curriculum you're using. Yes. It might be the time of day that you're doing it. Right. They might be hungry, they might be tired. prob, They probably are. [00:15:57] Yeah. Hungry. Maybe they're [00:16:00] curriculum is too hard. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Right. Maybe it's too easy. Maybe it's too boring. You know what? It might be too boring because a lot of curriculum is boring, so you know, it, Chances are it might be too boring. Yeah. It might be that they didn't have a say in picking it out. [00:16:17] Yeah, and I would also just add, like I, I think there are ki there are just with learning differences, there might just be an adjustment that needs to happen. Like my, I have a kid who whenever it's like I reading or writing, Boring, quote unquote. Yeah. Boring. They use the word boring. They use the word boring, but honestly they are. [00:16:38] They listen to audio books like nonstop. Yeah. And tell stories and like, yeah. They're so creative about other things. It's just like, it's like the eye reading is just such a, a strain. It's hard. Slog. It's a slog. And then same with like physical hand, like writing things down is real. It's like [00:17:00] there's also some like fine motor skills that are really developing there too, so, Okay. [00:17:04] Mm-hmm. , it's boring. Let's, let's like, Really drilled down into what that what do you mean it's boring? Right. Cause like for that kid it might be like the actual work of it is, is boring. Yeah, it probably is. Yes. But not like the subject of writing or reading. , right? Yeah. Or if it's reading, maybe it's not necessarily just the subject of Ring. [00:17:26] I mean, I think a lot, I mean, any kid could probably enjoy reading if they had the right maybe topic of book. Mm-hmm. You know, and a very high interest thing. Right. There's a lot of things we can do within the subject too. Right? Yeah, that's true. Make it That's true. Make it more, Yeah. Yeah. Relevant. So when, what to do when your kids push back. [00:17:48] Mm-hmm. . I think the thing you don't wanna do is power through . Right. I think, I think that although I have tried that, I, I have tried that. We've all tried that. No judgment. No judgment. [00:18:00] Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . But powering through never seems to work for, for me. Right. But I think when kids push back, we wanna stop what we're doing and connect first. [00:18:10] Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . So maybe that's listening to them. Maybe that is. Telling them that you hear them and see them and care about them and that you're gonna figure this out together. Right. Maybe that's saying, Hey, you know what, like I can tell that this is really stressing us both out right now. Do you wanna just go like, watch something on TV right now together? [00:18:30] Yes. And pedal, you know, just completely changing things up. Totally. Yeah, and you can also just not. You can also just decide this is not for us. Right, Right now for sure. You know's like you're not even gonna try tomorrow, is what you're saying. Not gonna try tomorrow. This is not, Yeah. You can take a break for however long you need to. [00:18:49] Right, Right, right. For it. Exactly. Yep. You might try again tomorrow. You might try next week. You might try in a couple months. Right, Right. And, and you can also do it differently like we talked [00:19:00] about. There are some things that you can do differently. You can try a different angle, but it often does, there often does, has to have to be you know, a break in the emotion. [00:19:08] There has to be a a, a period where The memory of this tough thing may, may, like, make it tough to even try it in a different way. Mm-hmm. , So you wanna give it time for sure. Yes. Depending on what your child needs or you need for sure. It's different for everyone, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so When you decide to try it again after your break mm-hmm. [00:19:30] You might try a new curriculum. Yes. You might try something completely different like an app. Yep. You, you might, another thing you could do is outsource it. To like, maybe they take a class online, maybe they do it at a co-op or something. Maybe you change the time of date. Maybe you do it before bed. [00:19:48] Okay. I love that one because that's outside of the box thinking that I think a lot of kids need, Okay. They need us to be thinking outside of the box. We think we have to do school between eight and three or something, you know, [00:20:00] whatever's in our mind. Yeah. Yeah. Learning happens all the time. Yeah, it really does for. [00:20:04] That's so true. And it could be different for everybody. It could be before bed, it could be that your partner takes, takes it on. Yes. Maybe you're just like, You know what? I can't do this subject with this child because it's too hard for both of us right now. Can you take it on? Yep. Maybe you just don't do it at all. [00:20:19] Right? I dunno. There's a lot of, you have a lot of choices and. I was just gonna also say, I think it's really important for us, this is where I think, and we talk about this so much on the podcast, is to notice all the learning that's already happening around you. Mm-hmm. , there's so much learning that's happening around you. [00:20:34] If you, if you, you know, took notes on all the ways your kids are learning throughout the day, you may not feel like you really have to do all the things that you've planned cuz they are learning so much. Maybe even the. Subject and skill that you're trying to directly teach over here? Maybe they've, they're doing it naturally on their own. [00:20:53] Yeah. Throughout the day, or maybe not exactly, but like there's still. [00:21:00] Our, our job is, you know, to have our kids practice learning. We want them to get into the habit of learning. It doesn't always even matter the exact thing that they're learning. They're in the habit of learning. When they're the habit of learning, they're going to continue to learn for the rest of their lives. [00:21:18] And so to, to be like really a stickler about the exact thing they're gonna learn today is can kill. That habit of learning. Right? And so then, then, okay, they learn that one thing today, but they're not gonna learn as much for the rest of their lives. So what we really want is the continued learning. [00:21:37] Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . So given all that, is it ever okay to push your kids? Mm-hmm. ? I think. This is an interesting question because mm-hmm. , I think a lot of times I think people have different opinions on it, so I would love to hear, Oh, for sure. Mar, what do you think about, Is it ever okay to push your kids? [00:21:57] I do think it's good. I, I [00:22:00] like to use, we've said this on the podcast before, to stretch without breaking. You wanna stretch without breaking. And especially this works really well when it's something your kids. Are willing and excited about working on it's like the book Grit talks about this a lot. [00:22:17] I think it's Angela Duckworth is the author. Yeah. You know, she talks a lot about how grit is not working hard on something you hate doing. It's, you know, working hard on the things that you can get in the flow with and for sure excited about. And so they, those are the ideal places. Push your kids, honestly. [00:22:34] You know, and I don't mean like push out of their, you know too, Right. Stretch. Stretch. Yes, for sure. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I do think that's ideal. Mm-hmm. When kids are really into something, but I think a lot of times they're not, you know, like some, sometimes they're just not like, you know, and this, there might be something that you just think is really important. [00:22:54] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think sometimes it is okay. I, I think especially as kids get older mm-hmm. , so like, maybe [00:23:00] I'm talking like middle school age. Yes. I think it's okay to sometimes push them. I think sometimes they need to try it and see that they can overcome this or what Definitely. Yeah. Or they can flex these certain muscles. [00:23:11] They might need to know what that feels like. I do wanna, I do think in the middle school, and I actually just had a conversation with middle school teachers about this , about how middle schoolers are often, often asking, What's in it for me? What's in it for me? And I think that we all agreed that's a valid question because. [00:23:30] Doing work that they don't care about is not, there's nothing in it for them for sure. So I think that it's very important to listen to your middle schooler especially so that they understand there is like there's something, they do get something out of it. Yeah. And maybe it's something completely unrelated to the actual learning. [00:23:45] You get to do something that I don't usually let you do or whatever it is, you know you know, we're gonna go get a treat after this or something. Yeah. I think that that is valid. I don't think there's anything wrong with. Especially for a kid with a learning difference, especially adhd, there [00:24:00] is no dopamine hit you get from accomplishing something you didn't wanna do in the first place. [00:24:05] So there has to be some sort of, you have to provide that yourselves. Yeah. If you want them to continue to do these, push themselves in ways they never really wanted to in the first place. Yeah, I totally agree with that. There are lots of things I don't wanna do and Exactly right. Sometimes I give myself rewards. [00:24:24] Yeah. For doing them right. , I say like, when I'm done with this, I can do this. And so I do think having those conversations with your kids is important. Like, Yes. This does not have to be a day filled with a bunch of things you don't like to do. Right? Right. Yes. You're, you're not into this, but it's important. [00:24:39] Okay. What could we do after mm-hmm. to make it worth it for you. Mm-hmm. . And you do want, you want them, you know, when, when we do give those, you know, outside rewards or whatever, I, for me, the po the, the goal is, and you reference this, Angela, is my, the goal is for them to feel. [00:25:00] The accomplishment, but they aren't willing to try it to feel the accomplishment until they get a little, you know, outside motivation or whatever. [00:25:06] Yeah. Yeah. So eventually they'll feel the accomplishment, but they might not ever feel that if it's something they don't like to do. Yeah. If it's something they do like to do and they're still scared to try it or whatever, that's what we're dealing with at our house. Like, I know you're gonna love this. [00:25:20] I just, I need you to try it. And Then I feel like then eventually they don't, they don't need the outside rewards, you know, they get it internally. And that is the ultimate goal, is to be like, Oh, you felt so good doing that, and you saw this, you know, this growth and the accomplishments and you should be so proud of yourself. [00:25:41] And that's like, Yes. And I would say too, like, you know your child best, right? Yes. Yes. I think sometimes this is appropriate, sometimes it's not. Sometimes for sure the thing that you're trying to do isn't really necessary. So I would ask yourself those tough questions. Mm-hmm. And see [00:26:00] where you can give a little too. [00:26:02] And yeah, I would try not, I mean, like, I don't know, I just, I hear from a lot of people or a lot of situations that like, homeschool is a struggle and there's lots of crying and my kid doesn't wanna do this or whatever. And I just think that that sh that shouldn't be the majority of it. Right. Right. You, you have to be a good judge of when it's appropriate to do a little bit of nudging. [00:26:26] And I also think like you know, you can't do that the whole day, so no. You have to really pick what you have to pick. Yep. Mm-hmm. , you have to pick when it's, when to use that. When are you willing to use that? Cuz you don't have many of those ships in your pocket. You really don't. Right. And my kids too are sometimes even when I give the outside, you know, dayle, the carrot in front of them, they're like, No, no, thanks. [00:26:50] I've seen that before I got into it. No, thank you. Not worth it. And I, I get it. I understand that too. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And some, and sometimes [00:27:00] kids are so shut down that there's nothing, there's nothing, You don't even, you know, even doing, doing anything to push. Your agenda forward is just going to damage the relationship, and that's when you know it's time to just stop and connect and for sure move on. [00:27:18] Stopping and connecting is just. The most important. And then listening, just really listen to them, like, why are they not into this? Yeah. You know? And then if they're giving good reasons, like, is this really that important at this age? Right. And even if they might, they might not. That's the other thing is they might not be communicating good reasons at this point in their lives. [00:27:39] They might not be. So we have to kinda, as parents, I don't know, like it's really difficult, but. You know, we sometimes just have to read between the lines a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. , but hopefully they can, maybe you can even what you see, you can, you can talk to them about what you observe and what you [00:28:00] notice might be happening if they're not able to tell you. [00:28:03] Mm. Mm-hmm. You know, what's wrong? What I'm noticing is this, is that right? Do you think this is right or not? Yeah. Or whatever. But it'll, eventually it'll start to come out the more you practice mm-hmm. , that kind of communication. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. All right, . I hope that was helpful. Well, I hope so too. I always love talking about this kind of stuff. [00:28:25] We would love to hear your thoughts too. All right. Let's move on to lt. Ws Loving this week. Angela, what are you loving? [00:28:33] Okay. I am loving a skincare product. Now, , I hesitate in saying this cause I'm not like a skincare person and I don't necessarily know what I'm doing. So I'm not like an expert. So just this is my non-expert product opinion. Noted. Okay. . This is for a product from the ordinary. It's called a aha, 30% plus bha, 2% peeling solution. [00:28:59] Actually, I think the name is [00:29:00] just Peeling Solution. Oh, okay. Okay. So it comes in like a glass bottle with a dropper. Okay. And what you do, it's like a mask that you might wear at night to exfoliate, and you don't use it that often. You would maybe use it once, maybe twice a week at the most, right? Mm-hmm. [00:29:18] So, and it sits on your face, like it goes on kind of like a thick liquid. Oh, wow. And it sits on your face for like 10 minutes. Okay. And then you wash it off. And then the next day, your skin looks amazing. Oh my gosh, . Wow. That's what it is. So I bought this in like I just looked, 2019 was when I bought it the first time, and I just ran out and reordered. [00:29:43] So like I've had it for a long time now. I don't think I've been using it every week. Yeah. I think I've gone a few weeks in the middle without, But it, my point is it lasts a long time. It's $8. Wow. It's $8 on the ordinary.com. I like a lot of ordinary products. Oh yeah. So you could probably [00:30:00] get a few different things there. [00:30:02] But I really love this one because it's basically like it peels off. Dead skin. I think that's amazing. This is my unprofessional terminology. It peels off your dead skin. Cause I feel like there is some ex, a lot of exfoliating products out there that I don't feel. Does that necessarily? Yeah, this really does that. [00:30:23] Okay. So like whenever I'm like, my face starts to look, you know, where. Ugh. What's going on here? Like, it looks dull. Or like, I have some flakiness, I have some dry skin sometimes at the top, like in my forehead, and then I go, Oh yeah, I forgot I could do my, you could do my mask. Ooh. So I do it at night, like when I'm taking a bath and I just let it sit there. [00:30:45] It does tingle does it? Which can become, It can feel weird. Okay. Okay. Shingles, but like, cuz that means it's working. I don't know. Okay. Okay. You wipe it off and then you just put. Put some moisturizer on top of it. You can go to bed and [00:31:00] like I said, the next day you wake up and you're like, Wow, what happened? [00:31:02] Oh wow, this looks great. So I'm so excited about this. Yeah. So yeah, I wanted to let you all know that it's a really. Cheap and easy. Great way to, That's a good excuse to order a few things from the ordinary . Yeah. Right? Yes, yes. Mm-hmm. . All right. Martin, what are you loving this week? Okay. I'm loving a very simple snack and it's it's blue but blue diamond almonds, and they have newer flavor called Sweet Thai Chili. [00:31:30] I get these from, Costco. So a very large bag, , very large bag of these. And I'm telling you, I think I might be the only one who eats them in my family and they go fast. So that's telling me I'm, I'm the one who, they're eating a lot, very large bag of these almonds. They're so delicious. And I just, you know, obviously protein filled, which I need in the middle of the day. [00:31:58] Yeah. I need more [00:32:00] protein. Yeah. To keep going. These are great, great snacks. This is a great snack. I need new, I need new great snack ideas. Cause honestly, like snacks leave me lacking. I agree. Same. And I, I'm happy to eat something healthy if it's easy. Yeah. If it's easy, I will eat it. . Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And this is, you know, Yeah. [00:32:23] And it's so tasty. It's, you know, it's just like, it's a, it's sweet. It's a little sweet. It's a little spicy. Which I love. The only thing I don't like is that it gets my fingers. I was gonna say, do they? Yeah. Yeah. I don't like that. I do not like that. But I, It's obviously very worth it to me, , because I continue, continue to buy these every time. [00:32:45] That's awesome. Shop at Costco. . That's great. And they're just for you because your kids aren't into them, so they're just for me. I'm sure. I'm sure my husband eats them too. I don't know. He must, He must. I keep telling myself that. Because they You must. You must. [00:33:00] Yeah. Right, right. That's what I think. I hide. [00:33:03] I do have chocolate that I hide because I'm like, People, you cannot keep eating this. This is just for me. Yes. Which I know every parent probably hides. Definitely. So, Okay. Yep. Same. All right. Well thank you everybody for being here today. Special thank you to our three sponsors, Blossom and Ro Out School and Knight Zookeeper. [00:33:26] Be sure to check out their links in our show notes. This podcast is created and hosted by Angela C and Mar Gorse. We are listener support. To get extra content and the Back to School summit free with your membership, go to patreon.com/homeschool unrefined. Subscribe to our newsletter and get our free top 100 inclusive book list@homeschoolunrefined.com slash newsletter. [00:33:54] You can find Maren on Instagram at unrefined Maren, and at Always Learning With [00:34:00] Maren Find Angela at unrefined Angela.

Join us today as we have a conversation with Camille Kirksey, the Intuitive Homeschooler, about what her homeschool life looks like. Fall 2022 Season Sponsors We are so grateful to our Fall 2022 Season Sponsors. Use the links below for their special offerings: Blossom & Root and use code HSUnrefined15 for 15% off your purchase Outschool and use code Unrefined for $20 off your first class Night Zookeeper for a 7-day, risk-free trial, as well as 50% off an annual subscription LTWs Maren: Magnetic Card Wallet Holder Angela: Dry Erase White Board Sheets Connect with us! Visit our website Sign up for our newsletter and get our Top 100 Inclusive Book List We are listener supported! Support us on Patreon Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and see video episodes now on Youtube Angela on Instagram: @unrefinedangela | Maren on Instagram: @unrefinedmaren and @alwayslearningwithmaren Email us any questions or feedback at homeschoolunrefined@gmail.com Complete Episode Transcript [00:00:00] Angela: [00:00:09] Hi, we're Maren and Angela of homeschool unrefined. Over the past 25 years, we've been friends. Teachers, homeschool parents and podcasters. Together with our master's degrees and 20 years combined homeschooling, we're here to rethink homeschooling, learning, and education with an inclusive and authentic lens. [00:00:30] Maren: At Homeschool Unrefined, we prioritize things like giving yourself credit, building strong connections, respectful parenting, interest led playing and learning, learning differences, mental health, self care, listening to and elevating LGBTQ plus and BIPOC Voices. [00:00:51] Angela: We are here to encourage and support you. Whether you're a new homeschooler, a veteran, you love curriculum, you're an unschooler. Whether [00:01:00] all your kids are at home or all your kids are in school, or somewhere in between. Wherever you are in your journey, we are the voices in your heads telling you, You're doing great, and so are your kids. [00:01:10] Maren: This episode is 1 94, How We Homeschool with Camille Kirksey. We are going to first share our conversation with Camille, the intuitive homeschooler, and then we'll end like we always do with our lt. Ws loving this week. [00:01:27] Angela: All right. We wanted to let you guys know before we get started about our newsletter. [00:01:30] We would love to have you sign up for it if you don't already get it. It comes out every week on Fridays. It's packed with everything for the week and a little bit of inspiration for you. If you sign up for it, you get a free gift, which which is our book list. This is our top 100 inclusive book list. [00:01:49] We're so proud of this and so excited for it. So if you don't have it yet, you're gonna wanna. Yes, and [00:01:54] Maren: it's a PDF with links. Yeah, just click something. It's so great. We are starting something new [00:02:00] this season where we are bringing you three new sponsors for the entire fall season. We were very intentional about who we chose for sponsors. [00:02:10] We pre appreciate you taking the time to learn about them because we think they're really good companies. Also, they're giving discount codes, so you will definitely want to listen for. We're so happy to work hard on this podcast and we appreciate the financial support in making it happen. [00:02:29] You've heard us rave about out school in the past because they're one of our favorite ways to outsource your homeschool. We know that kids who love to learn don't just prepare for the future. They create it. That's why Out School has reimagined online learning to empower kids and teens to expand their creativity, wonder and knowledge. [00:02:49] Empathetic, passionate teachers encourage learners ages three to 18 to explore their interests, connect with diverse peers from around the world, and take an active role in leading [00:03:00] their. Out school has created a world filled with endless possibilities for every schooling journey. Explore over 140,000 fun and flexible live online classes to find the right fit for your family and join us as we set learning free. [00:03:18] Sign up today at Out schooler.me/homeschool unrefined. And get up to $20 off your first class when you enroll with Code [00:03:27] Angela: UNREFINED. We absolutely love teaching, reading, and writing in ways that are creative and fun, and that's why we are excited to introduce you to Knight Zookeeper. Is your child a reluctant writer? [00:03:41] Do they struggle with reading? If your answer to either of these questions is yes, the Night Zookeeper may just be what you're looking for. Night Zookeeper is an online learning program for children, ages six to 12 years old that uses a gamified and creative approach to help keep kids engaged and focused [00:04:00] on developing awesome reading and writing skills, all while having fun at the same. [00:04:05] Some of the features we love include the educational games, the personalized feedback on writing from real tutors and the super safe community pages where children can work with each other and learn together. If Night Zookeeper sounds like the perfect learning program for your child, you can try it for free by clicking on the link in our show notes. [00:04:24] When you register it, you'll get a seven day risk free trial, as well as a huge 50% off an annual subscription. That's a great deal if you ask. We [00:04:38] Maren: know how hard it is to find curricula that's a good fit for you and your kids. Blossom and Root is a nature focused secular homeschool curriculum focusing on creativity, science, nature, literature, and the arts. [00:04:52] Blossom and Root has been gently encouraging and supporting homeschooling families around the globe since 2016. [00:05:00] Blossom and Root currently offers curricula for pre-K through fifth grade with new levels being added in the future. Additionally, a three volume inclusive US history curriculum told from a variety of viewpoints is currently in development as of August, 2022. [00:05:18] Volume one is available for purchase, and volume two is available on pre-sale. All profits from this history curriculum, a River of Voices will be used to support story. And artists from historically excluded communities. You can find samples, scope, and sequences and information about each of their levels online@blossomandroot.com. [00:05:42] You can also find them at Instagram at Blossom and Root. Blossom and Root has created a special discount for our listeners. Use the code Hs. Unrefined 15 at checkout for 15% off your. [00:05:56] Angela: All right. Hi Mar. Hello. [00:06:00] So happy to be here. So happy. Yeah. Today we have Camille Kirksey with us, and if you are, don't already know her, you might know her from her Instagram reels. [00:06:09] Mm-hmm. That's where we found her first. Mm-hmm. . Camille Kirksey strives wholeheartedly to be honest and transparent about the transformative experience homeschooling offers, shifting the narrative of what home education can be. Since beginning to homeschool in 2013, she has helped thousands of homeschool parents by simplifying the how to homeschool learning process, making it easier, quicker, and less intimidating for newcomers through veterans A. [00:06:36] Camille is an author and homeschool mindset coach that recently launched her first masterclass for new homeschool parents Empowered Beginnings under her upcoming online coaching program for Parents Homeschool U Academy. Which launches in 2023. And here's our conversation with Camille. [00:06:57] Welcome Camille. Thanks for being [00:07:00] here. [00:07:00] Camille: Hi Angela. It's so nice to be here. Finally meeting. I know. Finally in person. kinda [00:07:05] Angela: in person. Person. Yeah. Yeah. This is fun. Yeah. So yeah, I first discovered you doing reels and if you're not following the intuitive homeschooler and doing on reels on Instagram, you're missing out. [00:07:19] So . So thank you for bringing that joy into my life. First, tell us a little bit about yourself, your job, your family, things [00:07:28] Camille: like. So I'm Camille. I have three kids, teen all the way to seven. Okay. We've been homeschooling since 2013, so this is year nine for us. Okay. As you said, I do reels. That is my happy place. [00:07:44] I take all the crazy things that go on in my head and and give it to the people, and people seem to like it. Yeah. And that's just about being relatable. One of the things I really like to do is highlight things that I think we're all thinking and do it in a funny [00:08:00] way. So that's something I really enjoy. [00:08:01] What else? So I'm a homeschool mom. I run a business, a digital media Okay. Business. Where we create content. I release a book in 2020 for new homeschoolers called Coming Home, and that has turned into a new master. And next year, 2023, a digital academy for our homeschool parents where we can go and learn some things. [00:08:24] The kids get to have a lot of fun online, but we, we need to do that too, so. [00:08:28] Angela: Okay. That's awesome. Yeah. That's awesome. I have to ask you about your reals because you have a talent for finding audio . [00:08:38] Camille: Oh. Like, you [00:08:40] Angela: find a piece of audio that you think wouldn't relate. And then you make it relatable. And I'm wondering like, has this just come to you? [00:08:48] Like, are you just like, Oh, I don't, I know what to do with that ? Yeah. [00:08:52] Camille: You know, they find me. Okay. It's just, especially on Instagram, I know it's different on TikTok, Instagram, you can't really find a audio [00:09:00] anyway, so you kind, you gotta come across it, but it just happens in my head. If it's funny and I can make it work, then I do. [00:09:08] Angela: That's awesome. That's awesome. And you know what, You're also like not afraid to say the thing that other people might be afraid to say. So I appreciate that. [00:09:15] Camille: Oh, of course. It's, that's been a gift and a curse my entire life, even as a kid. So, and my mother can attest to that. She's told me many stories of her, like looking like, Is my child about to get in trouble with some other people? [00:09:29] Let me make sure she's okay. Yeah. Cause she speaks her [00:09:32] Angela: mind. So yeah, it's definitely a gift. It's a gift. Okay, I accept that. Yeah. Yeah. So how did you get started homeschooling and like, what made you decide to do that? [00:09:43] Camille: So, It was a real kind of random thing. I found myself on Facebook at like two in the morning as, as one does back in the day. [00:09:54] And I saw a black woman from, I think she was from Seattle. [00:10:00] She was from No, Colorado. Denver. Okay. And she had like seven kids and they were homeschooling. And that was the first introduction I ever had. I didn't, I had never heard of it until then. Mm-hmm. , this was 2013. Wow. Okay. And my oldest was four and he was in school like a pre-K, and it was fine. [00:10:19] We didn't have any problems. I didn't, you know, homeschool as a reaction to him being at school. But when I saw her and I saw how she presented herself and I saw this freedom and just, I just was like, I like that, I want that. So I kind of started looking into it, you know, back in 2013, you really can't find like, A breath of information about homeschooling. [00:10:39] It was very basic. Yeah. Lot of YouTube wasn't happening yet. Yeah, definitely not podcast. No. And so yeah, that was kind of my first aha moment. And then a couple things happened at the school and I was like, you know, let's just try it and that, and it kind of just stuck. [00:10:53] Angela: So you're one of those people who just decided to try it and then it worked and you were. [00:10:59] That's awesome. [00:11:00] Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. And you've just stuck with it for nine years now? Yeah. This [00:11:04] Camille: is nine September. Yeah. It just, it, it really. Had I known about it growing up, I probably would've had it on my radar. Mm-hmm. . But we just were I guess a typical family. Everybody went to school. My parents went to work. [00:11:18] Yeah. So I didn't even know there was an alternative way of learning. Yeah. Right. Yeah. [00:11:23] Angela: Right. And so what is your, do you have like a homeschool philosophy or what kind of homeschooler are you? [00:11:29] Camille: I don't, I mean, I'm kind of just a go with the flow, kind of, I guess. Intuitive . Yeah. Because I just really trust myself and my kids to let. [00:11:39] To, so all of us can just kind of flow together. Mm-hmm. That's kind of how my life has been. I thought I was gonna be a lawyer from when I was little and then I had a law class in high school. I was like, Nah, that ain't, that ain't it. So I just learned like, life is gonna bring me what I need to know. [00:11:55] Yeah. I just gotta trust the process. So yeah. I'm just, that's so interest. [00:12:00] Technically, I guess I would be eclectic cause Yeah, it's just kind of rolling. But yeah, it's just flow. That's just. where I find myself always going to, and when I, when I trust it, it works. [00:12:11] Angela: Okay. Okay. Yeah. So do you do like curriculum? [00:12:15] Some curriculum? Yes. Curriculum. [00:12:17] Camille: I, I call it educational resources. Okay. Because curriculum feels too constraining to me. It feels like, you know, it's only one way to look at things and I look at life as the curriculum. Life is the journey. So yeah, I just pull in whatever works. It it. Okay. It doesn't have to look a certain way. [00:12:36] Angela: Okay, great. And do you guys do things like co-ops or, [00:12:41] Camille: Oh, yeah. Yeah. We actually started in a co-op. We found it, we were one of the founding families in a co-op local to us. Look at you. Okay. When we started, and I was still working at the time, so that was very interesting cause I had Oh wow. Okay. So I had a five year old and a two year old. [00:12:56] No. He was one. Okay. And I was working from [00:13:00] home so I could like work anywhere. So we were at the co-op and it was beautiful. We, we loved it. That really worked for a few years. Okay. But since then we've done homeschool groups. Like my kids are at a homeschool group now, like a drop off homeschool group. [00:13:14] Okay. Yeah. Yeah, we do, we do like homeschool nature class. We, we get out and, and do a lot of homeschool type stuff. Yeah. [00:13:21] Angela: Yeah. Okay. That's great. So what would you say makes your homeschool unique? And I asked this because in the last episode we did, we talked about making your homeschool unique and how you know, Every child is unique. [00:13:34] Every parent's unique. And so you gotta do what works for you. So what do you think makes you all unique in the way that you homeschool? [00:13:41] Camille: Well, I think I, I really trust my, myself and I trust my kids and I really try to give them a say in a lot of things, even though we're not unschoolers. Mm-hmm. I really. [00:13:54] I really try to involve them as much as possible. It's kind of difficult cause my kids are kind of really [00:14:00] go with the flow kids. Like they don't have a specific thing, like, I wanna study this. They're kinda like going with whatever I do. But I think you over Yeah. Yeah. They're able to, you know, kind of narrow it down a little bit more. [00:14:13] Yeah. But yeah, I think, I think what I see out there in the homeschool community is a lot of us don't always trust ourselves and our kids. Yeah. And I think that's one of the things. Probably appeals to people about me because I thousand percent trust us to figure this thing out together. [00:14:29] Angela: That is such, that is so important and such an advantage that you have because you're right. [00:14:33] Like a lot of people and in myself included at the beginning, were like unsure or not self-confident in what you were doing or you know, because you're already like doing something different. You know, you're already like, You know, people probably think you're weird or like, what's, what's that family doing? [00:14:52] Or whatever. So that can be hard to be really confident in yourself and trust you and your kids and that you, you know what you're doing. Yeah. And so [00:15:00] I really think that's an advantage. Is that something that's like kind of just the way you are, it's kind of like in you born in you? Or is that like, come with practice? [00:15:09] Camille: Oh, it's absolutely practice. As far as homeschooling goes me personally, I, I am just a very, I do what I and my mother can say. I, I do what I want. I've been like that for a long time. If it's something that I want to do, I'm gonna do. But when it came to homeschooling, I absolutely didn't start out confident. [00:15:25] I started out very excited and curious, but clueless. Mm-hmm. , completely clueless. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And so I, over, over the years, I've just, I have, you know, one thing about me, I'm not afraid to try things. I don't because I, I never think I fail at anything. I just learn, Okay, well that didn't work or part of it worked, or mm-hmm. [00:15:47] So yeah, it, it took me five years. I always tell people it takes between three and five years to really, really get it, like really live it and understand. Interesting. Mm-hmm. that three are Mark for sure, but for me it was. Because I burned out [00:16:00] and I wanted quit. We were looking for school. Oh, did you? [00:16:02] Okay. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But after that I was like, You know what, we're just gonna sell it in. And I didn't give myself an out. Mm-hmm. , you know, I said, We're gonna go, we're gonna go with this thing. We're not gonna go year by year. We're gonna go with this thing. And yeah. So after a while it just kind of stuck. [00:16:20] Yeah. Cause I'm like, well, I can't, I can't not do it. So [00:16:24] Angela: we're gonna do. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So what did you learn in that time? Like what kinds of things were you maybe thinking or doing at the beginning that you you know, decide, you realized like, this isn't working. I need to fix it and do it a different way? [00:16:40] What changed [00:16:40] Camille: for. Well, I jumped in like a lot of us do with, you know, buying curricula upfront. Yeah. Not, not understanding like my rhythm, not even knowing about rhythm, you know. Mm-hmm. , I did what schools do, what I went through, you know, most of us go through mm-hmm. And. A lot of that can [00:17:00] be helpful at first for transitioning mm-hmm. [00:17:02] Because it gives you some sense of normalcy, like you are familiar with that. Yeah. But over time, you know, and I know we talk about your, like finding your kids Like their learning styles. And you know, after a long time into that, I was like, That's, that's just not real. That's just, it's just not a thing. [00:17:22] Okay. It's something that feels good, but in real life we don't only have one learning style. We learn things multiplicity of ways. So, yeah. You know, I just jumped into the traditional way of homeschooling and I, I just found that. It didn't feel good. Maybe it checked off the boxes. Mm-hmm. , but it didn't feel right. [00:17:42] And yeah, I tried everything. I tried Waldorf, I tried unschooled, I tried, I went down. I did it all cuz I didn't know what else to do, you know? Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, so it's probably nothing I haven't done at this point. That just gave me the confidence. Okay, well those didn't work. It has to be something else. [00:17:58] Mm-hmm. . And once I started [00:18:00] listening to myself and learning my kids Cause it's also hard when your kids are little because they, Yeah. You know, they don't really, they can't really direct you in a way. Some kids can, but my kids were very open, so it's kind of left up to me. And that's hard too, cuz I don't know. [00:18:15] Yeah, [00:18:16] Angela: that is such a good point that. Hadn't thought of until now that when you're, you, some people start when their kids are younger. A lot of people do. Yeah. And then so you think you figured it out or you think you, you've got this or whatever, and then your kids get older and you're like, Oh Now my child is showing me who they are and what they need. [00:18:34] And things need to change a little bit. [00:18:36] Camille: Absolutely. It's, yeah, it's really difficult to know. I mean, and I think that's why a lot of kids end up going to school when they get older because things change. They need different things. Yeah. And. You know, you just have to try to meet them where they are. But it's hard to do when they're little because they're, you're the leader at that point. [00:18:55] Yeah. You know? Yeah. And it's hard to, you know, let them lead unless they're very [00:19:00] strong. Some kids are very, very particular and they know what they want. Yeah. But a lot of them don't. So you kind of left, I dunno. [00:19:07] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. So what are some of your favorite resources? Do you have like one or two that you love to use? [00:19:15] Camille: Ooh. [00:19:16] Angela: Doesn't have to be specific. You can be like YouTube [00:19:18] Camille: or, you know, I'm a workbook person. Like, personally, I really do like workbooks. And I, I've done all types of workbooks, but I, I feel like. My kids like to know what they have to do. Like Yeah. And it's easy to say this is it, you know? Yep. But yeah, probably more workbooks. [00:19:37] They don't really, they don't really gravitate towards anything else. I'm kinda like a workbook. Make sure you read, you know, for however many minutes mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. a person. So kind of just like a mix between like, let's see what's at the library with that and workbooks, but it's not one particular. You know, I don't have a particular resource that I like a go-to. [00:19:59] It's [00:20:00] just like, this works right now, kind of [00:20:02] Angela: thing. That's just it. That's how it has been for me too, a little bit. It's just like you find a thing, it works for a few months and then you gotta find another thing. . Mm-hmm. . There's very few things that work the whole way through. Because people change, kids change and needs change and you get bored or mm-hmm. [00:20:19] you know, you need a variety or whatever. So that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Yeah. So what does a typical day or week look like for you? [00:20:28] Camille: You know, honestly it's pretty boring because it's so monotonous. . I think my kids are bored a lot because we do the same thing. They just know, you know? Okay. But it's the standard, you know, we start school probably around 10, 11 ish, cuz my kids will be older. [00:20:44] They wanna sleep in. [00:20:45] Angela: Yeah. And so you let 'em sleep in? Oh, absolutely. My [00:20:48] Camille: oldest. Sometimes he's not up till like two in afternoon. I'm like, Oh, I forgot you were here because I haven't even seen you today, . That's many a days. Okay. But yeah, so we'll get up, get dressed, [00:21:00] you know, typical stuff, and then we'll do school. [00:21:03] School takes about a couple hours. Okay. Right now we're doing th three days a week cuz they have homeschool group and we have other stuff going on. Mm. Yeah. Okay. And yeah. And then in the afternoons, I'm normally doing my work stuff or just vegging out watching something reels. I watch a ton of reels, [00:21:20] I guess that's my research. . Well, yeah, for [00:21:23] Angela: sure. It's for [00:21:23] Camille: research. Yeah. Yeah. . And so our weeks are pretty, they're, they're pretty, like I said, they're monotonous. They're the same thing. We may meet up with friends, you know? Mm-hmm. , if we can do that. Or a field trip or you know, the, Definitely the library. [00:21:38] Yeah. But we're, we're just really go with the flow. Like whatever, I try to have, you know, pay attention to the schedule, but I, I'm not a slave to the schedule. I'm kind of like, we'll go with the flow kind of thing. [00:21:50] Angela: That's nice. That's nice. So what do you, what for you is the best part of homeschooling? Like, why have you stuck with. [00:21:58] Camille: You know, I [00:22:00] really, when I used to work outside the home, I always wanted to be with my kids. Like, I just love the idea of being like going to the zoo and, you know, Yeah. Going and just hanging out. So I really do enjoy being with my kids. Mm-hmm. . But I also love that it's a second chance for me to really learn. [00:22:17] So much, so, so much. And to see things through their eyes because, and this is one of the things that I think a lot of homeschoolers have a problem with. We, our kids are different. Than us. Mm-hmm. , a lot of us, most of us grew up in the 19 hundreds. Let's just be clear and as long, as long as we, you know, continue to look at things from like the 20th century, we're gonna miss a lot of opportunities for our kids. [00:22:46] They are growing up in a different time. They have access to so much we didn't. Mm-hmm. , they have autonomy the way we didn't, you know, we. You know, parenting techniques that really give them this [00:23:00] voice. Mm-hmm. that a lot of us didn't have. So I really appreciate being, being in this modern time where, you know, maybe society wise, children aren't always seen as whole people, but there's this. [00:23:12] Movement of parents. Yeah. Especially with homeschooling. They're like, No, my kids mental wellbeing is important. Mm-hmm. , you know, how they, what they think about and how they express themselves is important. So I love being part of this movement of homeschooling that is very recent. Yeah. More modern. It's really honor. [00:23:31] Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that's, that's probably my [00:23:34] Angela: favorite part. Yeah. That's awesome. I love that. That resonates with me so much. I agree with you. I think there is a movement to, you know, a lot of people look back with nostalgia, but especially among homeschoolers, that can be the case. But I agree that there's so much. [00:23:51] There's so many positive things about the time that we're living in. Mm-hmm. . I know there's a lot of scary things too, but, you know a lot of it is positive and if we embrace it [00:24:00] and realize, like you said, our kids are growing up in a totally different world. This is amazing for them. It really is. [00:24:05] It's amazing. And you're right, it's a second chance for us. Like yeah. We are now getting to experience a lot of these things that they are too. It's. It's invaluable, so I really appreciate that. Yeah. What is what's one of the hardest parts for you about homeschooling, if anything? [00:24:25] Camille: Hmm. What's hard about it? [00:24:27] I guess just personally, because I guess I'm like a public figure or whatever. Just seeing people struggle with the things that I don't, I just know they don't have to struggle with, but they don't know it yet. Yeah. And I think that's probably the most difficult, like seeing how the community is changing, but it's, it's not always. [00:24:49] Inclusive and, and is diverse and mm-hmm. and supportive as I want it to be. And so obviously that's what I try to do. Yeah. Is provide that. But I think that's the [00:25:00] hardest seeing people, you know, In, in spaces where they're, they feel defeated or they can't do it. And I'm just like, Come here. Like no [00:25:09] Angela: Yeah. It doesn't have to be that hard. It doesn't have to be that hard. Yeah. Yeah. And it is really hard to know that when you're first starting out, or you're right. If you're in a space or you know, I think a lot of times you're looking around and wanting to do things the way other people do it because you don't know. [00:25:25] Right. And so that can be hard to know. Like there is a different way and it can be easier, it can be more relaxed. [00:25:31] Camille: Right. Absolutely. Yeah. [00:25:32] Angela: Yeah. So it sounds like where you live, I don't know, you didn't say where you live, but it sounds like where you live, you have a good comu, a homeschool community that you feel You know, is, is good for your family and that's amazing. [00:25:46] Camille: Yeah. Yeah. We do, We have access to, I mean, it's way more homeschoolers than I thought. Like when we, we first were part of the co-op. We're not with them now, but it was, it was so many families from so many different spaces and that was, I [00:26:00] was very surprised. I just didn't realize how many. Like within five minutes of me. [00:26:04] It was ridiculous. Wow. But yeah, we're kind of like adjacent to the homeschool, homeschool community. I haven't really found like a group of people. I have hand, like a, maybe a couple people. Yeah. . But online is like amazing . Yeah. But yeah, in person, it's kind of like we haven't, we've never been able to find our, our people like a group. [00:26:28] It's here and there, but not consistent. Yeah. [00:26:30] Angela: Like you kind of have your fingers in different places, but it's, you don't feel like, And I think that's okay too. I just, I want people to know like, there isn't always gonna be a perfect community for your family. Right. There probably isn't. Right. You know, if you have that count yourself. [00:26:46] Lucky because Yeah. That's amazing. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. But more like, for me at least, it was cobbling together a lot of just different things and some, some non homeschool things too, like after school or evening [00:27:00] type activities too, was where we met like kids who went to traditional school. [00:27:04] Yeah. Yeah, too. [00:27:06] Camille: So it was more, I think it's more common than not though. I mean, that's the thing, Yeah. With mm-hmm. , there's so many reasons why it's kind of disjointed that way, but mm-hmm. , I think that's more common than having like this. Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. Especially like for me, you know, we're a secular family and we don't have like a set, like a church group or, you know. [00:27:27] Yeah. That's way. But I think that's less common that in the homeschool community to really have that set group that you could just come into and you feel comfortable, you feel belong, like you belong. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Um, Cause I can get along with a lot of folks, but I don't, I have yet to find somewhere I feel like I belong in person. [00:27:47] Mm-hmm. . And that's just, that's really, that's a struggle. But you know, like you said, it just, it is what it is and that's, [00:27:53] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's definitely a A way the homeschool community could grow, you know? Mm-hmm. is being [00:28:00] more inclusive and we talk about that a lot, but it is hard to be, to feel like you don't fit for whatever reason. [00:28:06] Yeah. And, or feel like you're excluded for whatever reason in a group, or just to see, at least for me, it was hard to see like a lot of other groups getting together and then feeling like you don't really belong with that group. Then you're like, I feel like you miss out. You know? Right. Especi for something with [00:28:23] Camille: kids, you know, that's, It's okay if. [00:28:27] I'm the one that doesn't feel like a fit. I'm okay with that. But for the kids it is, it is difficult to see that because Yeah, like if you don't have, like, we don't have kids in the neighborhood and we don't, you know, so it is like, it's very intentional that I have to get out there and do it. Yep. Yep. Yeah. [00:28:43] It, it can be challenging for sure. [00:28:45] Angela: Can be challenging. Yep. So just for fun, because I'm curious, and I always, we talk about this a lot too. What kinds of things are you into right now? Like maybe you're reading, maybe you're watching something, maybe it's music you're listening [00:29:00] to. I'm just curious if you wanna share anything fun that you're into. [00:29:04] Camille: I mean, reals, that's probably like the most fun I have in a day. Yeah. And just, you know, engaging with people online. Yep. I am doing a cohort right now with moms, new homeschool moms, and it's every week and. I love doing that. Like I, I just love getting to know people and helping them be their best sales. [00:29:25] Yeah. So that's kind of how I spend my days for the most part. And all of it's fun to me, like Yeah. All of [00:29:31] Angela: it. . Yeah. You know, I love how you're normalizing that because I think people can feel, especially your homeschool parents or just parents in general, can feel guilty. Hmm. About the time that they're spending online, or especially like watching reels or [00:29:46] Camille: whatever. [00:29:47] Oh, no. don't do that. , that's like, I, I just, I've always, I remember being a little kid, like, I'm not gonna be these like, stuffy adults that don't laugh and, you know, are silly. Like, that's my. [00:30:00] State of mind. I, I, I find funny things and just probably the craziest places and mm-hmm. . Yeah. Like, yeah, I don't want, I don't want, don't do that like do. [00:30:09] So, and, and I think a lot of people, a lot of women moms, Yeah. Feel like, you know, self care has to be this. Like bubble bath or spot. Yeah. No, my laughing at these reels are, is laughing. That does that for me. That's laughing. [00:30:23] Angela: Yes. Are you on TikTok too? [00:30:26] Camille: Are you having I am not. No. I couldn't do both. Really? [00:30:30] Angela: That's, Yeah. It'd be easy. You just like put it over there too. You just like, No, actually it's not that easy. It's cuz we're, we're doing both too. Okay. And I you. Yeah, it's not as easy to, to do both. Like you can't just copy paste. If you could, that would be, Yeah. [00:30:46] Camille: Yeah. I, I tried that a little bit cause my, one of my friends was like, You have to get on TikTok. [00:30:50] Even my cousin, you have to get on TikTok. And I was like, No, , okay. I tried it, but it's like, I feel better, I feel more at home on Instagram. [00:31:00] Yeah. [00:31:00] Angela: Right. Yeah. I get. Yeah. Okay. So I am curious too, something that we always talk about is, are things that we don't do. So like a lot of other people do things that we sometimes think we should do. [00:31:16] Hmm. But you know, like for example, like I don't when my kids were little, I didn't do their laundry. They did their laundry or you know, I don't garden , , you know, I love other people gardening or like, you know, I think that's amazing. If that's your hobby and you like doing that, I'm not gonna do that. [00:31:34] Yeah. So just embracing the things that you don't do mm-hmm. then you're making room for the things that you really enjoy doing. So what are. Something that you [00:31:42] Camille: don't do? I mean, it's a lot. I don't do . I, I, I've, I've always, I've never been afraid to say no. That was probably my default for a long time. [00:31:50] Yeah. Because I don't. I'm an introvert. Like it doesn't come out like that, but I really, I really am. I really? Yeah, I believe you. Yeah. . So [00:32:00] I say no to most things. Yeah. But like you said, it is because I, I wanna, you know, really. Pay attention to the things that really matter to me in my kids. Mm-hmm. [00:32:11] Mm-hmm. . So, I don't know, like, I can, I think I say no to so much. I, I don't do drama. Like I, you know, even though I post some things that can be controversial sometimes. Oh yeah. That's very intentional. I'm a conversation starter. I want to do that. But most of the time I'm, I'm just kind of to myself, so I guess. [00:32:30] I normally, I can't even think of any particular thing I don't do, cuz there's so much I don't do. Yeah. I'm a minimalist too. Like, I keep things so simple. Yeah. Like I will say for homeschooling, I don't have a bunch of stuff. I don't, I don't find joy in keeping curricula that doesn't work or you know, just because I pay for something, I'm going to try to, I would give stuff away before I sell it. [00:32:52] Yeah. So I guess it's something I absolutely don't do. I don't hoard things just in case even I know you mentioned like earlier where [00:33:00] you know the curriculum is boring and you kind of move on and Yeah. I'm like, I don't put it on the shelf. Most times I kind of give it away because I don't You get [00:33:08] Angela: rid of it [00:33:08] Camille: right away. [00:33:09] Yeah, because I'm like, I'm not gonna save it. And some, some stuff. Very little. Very little. Yeah. But yeah, I kind of keep stuff real streamlined and, and moving. [00:33:20] Angela: That's just, You're not attached [00:33:22] Camille: to I am not attached, no. Yeah. I'm not attached to a lot of things. I'm not, I'm not even attached to the outcome of this homeschool journey. [00:33:31] Oh, I'm not attached to that. Say more about that. Yeah. I, I don't, I don't, and that's one of the things I went through a period of time where I was just binging so many, like, I guess self-improvement type books and just this really, I, I just, that's where I think my intuition really, really solidified for me, where I was. [00:33:50] I cannot be attached to the outcome of what happens. All I can do is do my best today. Mm-hmm. and whatever happens going forward is outta my [00:34:00] control. Mm-hmm. . So when it comes to homeschooling, I'm like, I'm gonna show up as much as possible and support my kids as much as I can. But what would they do with that that's on them, You know, just as adults, they, I can only. [00:34:14] Give them the best of me and they have to take whatever they can and, and go forward. I mean, that's for me, that's, that's how I don't get attached to like where they should be, what they should be doing today. Here we are. Oh, that's, you, [00:34:30] Angela: like healthy. That's just so healthy advice and I think most people are not there. [00:34:36] I, and most people put a lot of pressure on themselves to do it right. Because their kids' future depends on it or whatever. But you know, if your kids were in school, it would be the same. It would be like, yeah, I mean, you know, this is what we're doing, but you know, I don't know what the outcomes will be. [00:34:55] It's what you make of it, or it's, it's just what's gonna happen. This [00:35:00] is the best thing we're doing right now. I'm, I'm giving you, I'm given. I'm given a good try. Yep. And . That's it. . That's all I can do. Yeah, [00:35:11] Camille: that's I can. I know what, I don't create a separation between myself and my kids. Like, Okay, adults do it this way and kids do it this way because I don't know what I'm doing on a daily basis. [00:35:21] This. Mm-hmm. like this podcast, we can only plan so much. Yeah. We're gonna, whatever's gonna happen is gonna happen. Yeah. So adults, as adults, we practice this all the time. This jumping into situations, new jobs, relationships, all types of stuff. Mm-hmm. . So I don't know why that would be any different for the kids. [00:35:37] We don't know what's gonna happen with us. As much as we planned. I went to college, I, I'm not doing any of the stuff that I thought I was gonna be doing, you know, like you have. But that's the fun of it. Like that's where the, we talk about lifelong learning and being curious for our kids, but at some point it kind of doesn't apply to us. [00:35:55] Mm-hmm. . Yeah, it applies to us. So that's kind of what I like to do. I like to [00:36:00] not know what's coming. I'm okay with that cuz I'm. I've been okay in the past. I'll be okay in the future. It's, it's all good. It's hard to, [00:36:08] Angela: It's such a great, it's such a great attitude. It's such a great attitude. It's like it's ideal for homeschooling too, you know, to, to just Now, put that pressure on yourself. [00:36:18] What what happens will happen. Yeah. We love learning. We're just gonna keep, keep trying, keep experiencing things and yeah, this is life. [00:36:27] Camille: Yep. Life is the curricula. You just keep moving and that's amazing. [00:36:31] Angela: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being with us today. Of course. I'm so glad that we got to talk finally, and I wanted our audience to hear from you, and so will you tell our listeners where they can find you and what kinds of things you really want them to know about that you're doing? [00:36:51] Camille: Okay. So as for mentioned Instagram, I'm on there, the intuitive homeschooler. Mm-hmm. . My blog website is the intuitive [00:37:00] homeschooler.com. Okay. So all my places are on there. Yeah. I also have the new academy that is, we're kind of soft starting. Yeah. And that is homeschool. Academy, and that's just homeschool u.academy. [00:37:16] And so like the letter you or wireless? Yes. The letter You, [00:37:18] Angela: I'm sorry. Thank homeschool u.academy Academy. [00:37:21] Camille: Okay. Yes. And so that's coming out early 2023. It's gonna be, it's really an online coaching type of, Thing, but it's, it's gonna be interesting. Yeah. So yeah, they can just follow me, their Instagram for sure. [00:37:35] All my [00:37:35] Angela: fun reels, . Yep. Gotta check those out. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, we loved having you. Thank you for being [00:37:42] Camille: here. Thank you so much for having me. Byebye. [00:37:47] [00:37:47] Maren: Let's move on to our loving this week. Love Lt. Ws. Angela, do you wanna get [00:37:54] Angela: started? [00:37:55] What are you Loving this week? Sure, sure. So I'm loving something that. I, [00:38:00] somebody in our Instagram comments mentioned and I got it and now I'm wondering if you have already mentioned it to me, . So you'll have to tell me. Okay. You'll have to tell me. Okay. But I did a real, where I talked about our whiteboard as being like one of our favorite things in our house. [00:38:17] Right. And the thing that I put all of our, like, it just basically organizes our family and it sits in our living room like a big piece of artwork. Right. Yeah, exactly. Takes a place of an artwork. Piece of artwork, , and that's okay. Right? And then somebody in the comments, maybe one of you listening, said do you have the, like stickers for your fridge, [00:38:39] And I didn't. And then I looked them up. Oh, yes. [00:38:43] Maren: You have those, The sticker whiteboards like, Yeah. [00:38:46] Angela: Yeah. Except it's a big piece. It's not like a post. I don't have a big one. You don't have a big one. Okay, so I got these from Amazon. It is called Mc Squares. . [00:38:59] Maren: Love [00:38:59] Angela: it. [00:39:00] 11 i. They're 11 by 11. Okay. And they are not stickers actually. [00:39:05] So they clinging to your stainless steel appliances. It just cl. That's so nice. Yeah, so you can like remove it. It's not, doesn't not have a sticky back. I don't know how it clings. It's magic. It's science. Yeah. Doesn't matter [00:39:18] Maren: if, if it works, just go with [00:39:20] Angela: it. Right? So I got two cuz we have a fridge that's like, you know side by side or whatever. [00:39:26] So there's two sides, right? Mm-hmm. . So I got two, one for one for each side. 11 by 11 is perfect size. It takes up almost the whole space. Yeah. And one says like for is for everybody to write, like whatever grocer. They want me to get great. And then the other for what we're having for dinner. Oh, I love that. [00:39:45] Yeah, it's a great idea. Mm-hmm. and everybody's using it. They're all using it to write their, their requested items. And I love it so much. I, [00:39:53] Maren: That is so nice because what happened before, What happened before you had the list , you know, somebody's like, Mom, can [00:40:00] you add this to the list? And you'd be like, you'd be like, I'm [00:40:02] Angela: getting groceries. [00:40:03] I'd text everybody. I'm getting groceries. Does anybody want anything? And maybe one person would text me. Back a long list. Right. . Right. And the other people would be like, Oh no, I missed it. Did you already order? And so this is like, this is just always there. That's so great. A dry erase marker, always there. [00:40:22] And they can just use it. So [00:40:24] Maren: Yeah. And that's when it's on their mind when they're at the fridge. Right. . [00:40:29] Angela: And it's like, well, I always kind of like, I wanted. Dry erase for our fridge, but because we have stainless steel, you can't get like a magnet. Right. You can't get a magnet one. Exactly. Yeah. So it was just like, oh, our fridge is plain. [00:40:43] Which is fine, you know, it looks nice and clean. But this was, Oh, cuz the fridge is just like, it's like in the main, it's the main attraction in the kitchen. Right? Right. Definitely. So it take, this is. Prime real estate is what I'm saying. Yeah, it is. It totally is. [00:40:58] Maren: Prime. That's awesome. Yeah, so I love it. [00:40:59] [00:41:00] Oh, I love this idea. What I had was I do have magnetic white, little square, white boards basically, and they go on the side of our fridge. Oh yes, we have this like three inch space on the side of a fridge. Remember? You know, Yeah. Our fridge goes into this, you know? Yeah. It's a built in, right? And so we have like three inches, and so I got these three inch squares, and at each square I put, you know, I have one for every day of the week, and so I just write down what we're gonna have each day [00:41:28] Angela: for, for dinners. [00:41:30] Maren: Okay. Yeah. Which I love too. I love [00:41:33] Angela: it. Now I remember you telling me about that. Yes. And I remember looking at it and I don't have three inches , like ours is also built in. Yes. There's nothing sticking out. There's nothing out. Yeah. , [00:41:44] Maren: so, So yeah. Nothing I know. So this is great for you. I love that. I'm really happy [00:41:48] Angela: to, I'll put a link in the show notes there from Amazon, of course. [00:41:50] So, mm-hmm. . Yeah. All right. What are you loving this week, Maren? Okay. I am loving a [00:41:54] Maren: new phone wallet. Oh, and yeah, I'm loving it because [00:42:00] it's magnetic it. And I know this is probably not earth shattering to anyone. You've probably had phones. It [00:42:05] Angela: actually is to me . [00:42:06] Maren: Yeah. Well I think many people have had phones that have the magnetic phone and phone case thing. [00:42:13] The MagSafe for a long time. I just got one of these, a phone case that is mag safe and it's so nice because then I. You know, Ally Hook my wallet right to the back and I love it. I love it. It looks stylish. It's called The Hive. It's fr, I think it's called Hive. Yes. Hive. Anyway, that's the brand name. Okay. [00:42:36] And I'll, I'll, I'll definitely. Give a link to this too. But I love it because number one, it fits, it says it fits six cards. Okay. There so many of these wallet cases fit [00:42:49] Angela: one or two or, [00:42:50] Maren: Okay. Yeah. Or I stretch it so much. Yeah. But it doesn't work anymore after, you know, So this one says six. I don't, I've never used six. [00:42:58] I usually, I like a good four. [00:43:00] Card, wallet. Mm-hmm. . And so this one fits my cards perfectly. It's just, it fits, feels really good. And then also I just, I mean, I am a person, I know, I've known this about myself for years. I need a wallet. On [00:43:13] Angela: my phone, . [00:43:14] Maren: Otherwise I forget my wallet. It is just the way it is. So I've been like hooked to these wallet cases for years. [00:43:22] Mm-hmm. , I need that. I know that, but I also just absolutely love the chance to take it off every once in a while and just have a phone that doesn't have a wallet on it, even just for a short amount of time. It's nice. I really like it. [00:43:35] Angela: I appreciate. Yes, I saw you using this and yeah, I might have to copy you again. [00:43:40] I copied you on the phone wallet thing, which I have been using for years. Right, Which has been so handy. It's so nice, but the only problem with it that I have is that I can't charge it on a, On a wireless charger. Wireless charger. [00:43:55] Maren: Yep. Yep. It's true. Yeah. And so that's another [00:43:58] Angela: benefit. That's fine. [00:44:00] It's fine that I don't, I'm not able to do that. [00:44:02] But when I saw your wallet, removable wallet, yeah, I kind of liked that. Now, can you like put your phone in your back pocket without snagging or It can, Yes. Okay. [00:44:12] Maren: Yep, it works great. Okay. Yes. The material is just perfect for fitting in. Yeah, so I just, I really love it. And also the, you know, the magnet is so strong, so I never worried that it's gonna fall off. [00:44:25] That was my concern always. Yeah. [00:44:27] Angela: That the, I would [00:44:28] Maren: just, my wallet would just fall, but this thing is [00:44:31] Angela: really strong. That's nice. Yeah, because I think technology just keeps getting better. Obviously because I think when I considered this option mm-hmm. A few years ago they were like sticker wallets. . [00:44:44] Maren: Yes, [00:44:44] Angela: yes. [00:44:45] There wasn't a magnet. And then I, so I'm just, I haven't really looked, but now that I know, I think, Cause I'm not a purse person either, I'm, I'm not gonna carry a purse. [00:44:55] Maren: You just have to be careful and get, You do need a phone case that is [00:45:00] makes safe. It says make safe phone case. Oh really? Yeah. That allows the magnet magnetism to work [00:45:09] So yes, you do need that. Okay. But a lot, There's a lot of them. Lots of choices. There's so [00:45:14] Angela: many. Okay. Okay. [00:45:16] Maren: I love it. Yeah. [00:45:17] Angela: A big thank you to our three sponsors out School Night, Zookeeper, and Blossom and Root. Be sure. Be sure to check out their links in our show notes. [00:45:27] Maren: This podcast is created and hosted by Angela C and Marron Gorse. We are listener supported. To get extra content and the Back to School summit for free with your membership, go to patreon.com/homeschool unrefined. [00:45:43] You can subscribe to our newsletter and get our free top 100 inclusive book list@homeschoolunrefined.com slash newsletter. You can find Maron on Instagram at unrefined maron and at Always [00:46:00] Learning With Mar, and you can find Angela at unrefined. Angela.