How Humans Work Podcast

Episode SummaryRenowned evolutionary psychologist Robin Dunbar returns for part two of his conversation with Jef Szi and the How Humans Work Podcast, diving deeper into the limits and leaps of human social patterns.In this episode, Professor Dunbar expands on the evolutionary foundations of human relationships, moving beyond social grooming and the endorphin system to explore kinship and the deeper nature of our social lives.He begins by examining the cost and time investment required to maintain our inner circle of intimate friends. From there, he maps out the concentric layers of more peripheral friendships and the behaviors and expectations that characterize them. Dunbar emphasizes the vital role our closest five friends play in our wellbeing and longevity.We then explore how humans scaled up from the group sizes typical of primates to the now-famous “Dunbar’s Number” of 150. This leap—central to the Social Brain Hypothesis—reveals how brain size in primates correlates with social group size, due to the cognitive demands of managing complex, stable relationships.Dunbar illustrates these ideas through compelling examples—courtship, language, and religion—showing how humans have creatively repurposed existing biological mechanisms to sustain cohesion in increasingly larger groups.He also sheds light on how cultural practices like laughter, feasting, ritual, and storytelling serve to bind people together into broad, loosely connected “supergroups.”Ultimately, Dunbar offers a concentric model of our social world, illuminating the patterns, breakthroughs, and constraints of human sociality. This conversation helps us better understand our evolutionary journey and how we might draw on both embodied emotion and cognitive insight to navigate a highly uncertain future.***** About: Robin Dunbar: Robin Dunbar is Emeritus Professor of Evolutionary Psychology at Oxford University. His work in the Experimental Psychology department at the Magdalen College is concerned with ‘trying to understand the behavioral, cognitive and neuroendocrinological mechanisms that underpin social bonding in primates (in general) and humans (in particular).’ Robin is the author of several books, including The Social Brain, Human Evolution, and Friends: Understanding the Power of Our Most Important Relationships. Professor Dunbar is known for advancing the Social Brain Hypothesis with Dunbar’s Number. *****Episode #48 TakeawaysDunbar's number suggests humans can maintain 150 relationships.Time investment is key to strong friendships.Friendships provide emotional support during crises.Social interactions can be as beneficial as medical interventions.Volunteering can substitute for friendships in terms of social exposure.Cohesion in larger groups requires superficial cues and shared knowledge. Friendship layers are assessed within the first four weeks.Common interests determine the depth of friendships.Intuition plays a key role in evaluating relationships.Institutions help manage social cohesion and relationships.Shared knowledge and folklore create larger communities.Religion serves as a stabilizing force in communities.Top-down structures provide discipline, while bottom-up structures foster local identity.Population density poses significant future challenges.Humans have historically found solutions to problems.Optimism is essential for navigating future uncertainties.

Episode SummaryThe highly informed and deeply compassionate Amy Emerson joins Jef Szi and the How Humans Work Podcast for a remarkable conversation about the evolving landscape of psychedelics. With her extensive involvement and leadership in the Multidisciplinary Association of Psychedelic Studies (MAPS)* and their multi-year effort to get MDMA approved by FDA as a therapeutic medicine for PTSD. There are few better than Amy who can speak to the state of psychedelics for medical use in society. Not only does Amy share her honest appraisal about FDA drug approval process and members of congress on the Hill, she gives us the little known and fascinating history of MDMA. Some highlights are Sasha and Ann Shulgin’s groundbreaking contributions, the reputational damage MDMA suffered in the 90’s, the long-game efforts of Rick Doblin and others, the powerful way MDMA works on the brain, and the remarkable promise MDMA has shown to help people suffering with PTSD. Put together as a whole, Emerson offers us a destigmatized and inspiring view of MDMA beyond the common street descriptions of Ecstasy and Molly. From MDMA and the Medical Model, Amy then helps us see the many other use-cases for psychedelics that have a long and varied history. Building on issues of trauma and the importance of spiritually reconnecting with ourselves, we walk through the psychological benefits that can come with right-use of psychedelics.Finally, this conversation opens the visions of what future of psychedelic use in society through thoughtful contexts that track safety concerns and how, much like meditation, these ‘medicines’ can have a place in our society like Buddhist and meditation practices have entered our culture. All in all, Breaking the Stigma is a podcast of significance, as it invites us to reconsider our biases around psychedelics at a time when our society is challenged by mental health matters like trauma and the pervasive disconnection from nature and spiritual renewal. ***** About: Amy Emerson is a highly respected leader in the field of psychedelic-assisted therapy. She was Lykos Therapeutics (formerly MAPS PBC) CEO for an important period in advancing MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) as a drug with the FDAShe earned a Bachelor of Science in Genetics and Cell Biology from Washington State University and spent the early career involved in roles at pharmaceutical companies, where she contributed to the development of therapies in immunology, oncology, and vaccines .​In 2003, she began volunteering with the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS), assisting with clinical research monitoring. Her expertise was instrumental in establishing MAPS' clinical department and managing the MDMA Clinical Development Program. When MAPS founded its Public Benefit Corporation (MAPS PBC) in 2014 to develop and commercialize MDMA-assisted therapy, Emerson was appointed CEO .​Under her leadership, the organization, later rebranded as Lykos Therapeutics, completed multiple Phase 2 and Phase 3 clinical trials and raised approximately $150 million in funding. The company grew to over 120 employees, all working toward the goal of obtaining FDA approval for MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD .​Amy resigned form her CEO role in September 2024. Currently she is a senior advisor to Lykos and an independent psychedelic research consultant, awaiting the next big adventure.*****Chapters00:00 Introduction and Setting the Stage02:40 The Evolution of Psychedelic Research06:10 Understanding Stigma and Its Origins10:54 MDMA: From Therapy to Recreation16:33 Therapeutic Applications of MDMA20:28 Navigating the FDA and Drug Development24:45 Challenges in the Approval Process30:31 The Future of Psychedelics in Mental Health37:11 Navigating FDA Interactions and Support for Mental Health42:24 The Broader Movement of Psychedelics in Society46:51 Reconnecting with Ourselves and Others52:31 Healing Systems: The Impact of Trauma on Relationships58:50 The Importance of Lineage in Psychedelic Work01:02:01 Safety and Ethics in Psychedelic Practices#psychedelics #MDMA #therapy #FDA #mentalhealth #drugdevelopment #MAPS #psychedelicresearch #healing #AmyEmerson #HHW #podcast #howhumanswork #JefSzi #HHWPod #SashaShulgin #RickDoblin #Spirituality

Episode SummaryDeb Dana L.C.S.W. joins the How Humans Work Podcast to illuminate how our nervous systems dance between the ancient survival responses and the instinct to be in states of connection and safety. As an author, renowned Polyvagal Theory lecturer, Deb expertly and compassionately guides us through the ins-and-outs of Polyvagal Theory (PVT), and how it can help us find a more regulated nervous system. At the core, we explore the powerful, bottom-up role of our vagal nerves play in our ability to find safety and connection. Consequently, this show is also a profound conversation about the role of our nervous systems in healing, relationships, stress, and trauma.Throughout a delightful episode, Deb offers heartfelt insight into our human experience as she emphasizes the need for co-regulation and the impact of trauma on our nervous system responses as well as the intersection of Internal Family Systems and Polyvagal Theory. Together. Finally, we explore how environments and collective aspects challenge the nervous systems across contemporary society. Here Deb highlights the importance of creating safe environments for healing and connection has in changing how society handles. In this episode you will learn: How Polyvagal Theory provides a framework for understanding our nervous system. What Neuroception is and how our nervous system perceives safety and danger through neuroception. What the vagus nerve is and how it plays a crucial role in regulating our emotional states. Why Regulation is essential for accessing curiosity, play, and connection. The difference between Stress and Trauma responses, and how we can work with them. How the vagal break helps manage heart rate and emotional responses. Why understanding the nervous system can lead to more effective therapy. Insight into the influences on the collective nervous systems, societal dynamics and healing. Why creating safe environments is key to facilitating healing personally and societally. Deb Dana L.C.S.W., is a renowned clinician, consultant, author, and international lecturer specializing in the application of Polyvagal Theory to trauma treatment and therapy. With a deep understanding of the autonomic nervous system and its role in shaping human behavior and relationships, she has become a a leader in brining PVT insights into practical tools for therapists, healthcare providers, and individuals seeking healing.Deb is also the developer of the Rhythm of Regulation clinical model, which integrates Polyvagal Theory into therapeutic practices, emphasizing safety, connection, and co-regulation as the foundation for emotional and psychological well-being. Additionally, Deb has authored several influential books, including The Polyvagal Theory in Therapy: Engaging the Rhythm of Regulation and Anchored: How to Befriend Your Nervous System Using Polyvagal Theory, as well as the co-edited work Polyvagal Exercises for Safety and Connection.YouTube Chapters:00:00 Introduction and Background 02:11 The Role of the Nervous System in Human Experience 08:25 The Vagus Nerve: Anatomy and Function 14:28 The Connection Between Body and Mind 20:19 Distinguishing Trauma from Stress 28:12 Understanding Nervous System Regulation 34:08 The Role of the Vagal Break 41:06 Exploring the Sympathetic and Dorsal States 46:04 Mindset and Nervous System Responses 50:44 Collective Nervous Systems and Societal Healing

In this snap, bonus episode, show host Jef Szi riffs on what he is calling, 'Alpha Masculinity,' as it emerges alongside Donald Trump election to a second presidential term. In his eclectic style, Jef begins the show sharing his experience on a beautiful November night in San Francisco and going to see Leif Vollebekk in concert with his wife. Contrasting that with the pre-show UFC experience, Jef leans into evolution, mating strategies, and ironies that are unfolding as the majority of American Voters embrace the "big man" attitude and style of Donald Trump. With curiosity, critique, and invitation, Jef invites us to dive into the instinctual draw toward a renewed Alpha Masculinity with nuance.Calling on the stories from his late friend, Brent MacKinnon during the turmoil of the Vietnam War as well as the gift of artistry Leif demonstrated in his show, Jef calls us forward into this conversation using all the sensibilities to illuminate the deep need to reconcile ourselves with this force and to find our way with the complexities it presents.

Episode SummaryIn this next adventure into our Systems of Knowledge theme, the highly relatable and beautifully honest Erin Gilmore joins the podcast. This conversation explores how various teachings are points of refuge and healing as we make our way on the path adulting. Erin opens up about her journey with ADHD and the knowledges that have helped her. Specifically, how how the practice of yoga and movement became a foundation for making sense and meaning in her life.Along the way, we also learn how Meditation with Jeff Warren, Non-Violent Communication practices with Judith Hanson Lasater, and Trauma-Informed Yoga have been anchors for growth and self understanding in the process of becoming. Without pretense our proclamation, Erin offers unvarnished truth about her story and the encounter with life’s uncertainties and changes. From the listening skills that come with NVC or the ritual wisdom found in esoteric teachers, Erin shows us how embracing the knowledges has supported her self-acceptance and strengthened her anchor. About Erin: Erin Gilmore is a San Francisco-based yoga teacher with a unique modern style. She is also a student and teacher of Non-Violent Communication. Her experiences with Trauma-Informed yoga transformed her life and yoga practice. She lives in San Francisco, California with her husband and two children.Try Her Living Room Yoga ClassFollow Erin on Social

Episode Summary:Dr. Scott Schmidt joins the podcast to share his knowledge about caring for those with serious illness and those who are in the dying process. As a medical doctor with an expansive background in Emergency Medicine, Hospice Care, and now as a leader in the Primary Palliative Care field, Scott invites us to consider how we go about the realities that surround end-of-life. Along the way, we get a solid sense of what kind of attitudes, questions, and conversations are needed from both sides of the medical encounter. But don’t be fooled, this episode has teachings for the healthy as much as for those with serious health challenges. In considering the inevitable fate of all bodies, Dr. Schmidt shows us how we can be more prepared and receptive to our individual impermanence at any point in our lives. Indeed, we come to see how forethought can help us be present and feel less overwhelmed in more trying times.Further on in the podcast, we learn how Scott’s encounters with live-saving measures and his natural inclination toward helping those facing illness and death pushed him forward to being a leader in the Primary Palliative Care approach. Towards the end of the show, we get a very real glimpse into the difficulty of modern medicine, with its messy and often morally distressing dilemmas.With depth and humility in the face of the unknowable, this conversation is a remarkable one for both the significances that occur in the latter stages of life, and also with the genuine soulfulness Dr. Schmidt brings to these moving encounters. As he says, navigating serious illness and the inevitability of death is no simple thing. About Dr. Scott Schmidt: Scott Schmidt is an Emergency Medicine doctor and cultural change leader who is charged with developing Primary Palliative Care competencies. About Primary Palliative Care: is a subspecialty of medicine, that seeks to plan and address serious illness situations with an orientation to minimize suffering while tending to the whole person. Considered an upstream evolution from Palliative Care, Primary Palliative Care seeks to support Palliative Care competencies in all providers and teams.

Episode #37 SummarySenior Zen Dharma teacher, Fu Schroeder, sits down with Jef Szi for a heart-felt and mind-opening exploration of Zen Buddhism. As a System of Knowledge, Zen is one of the great wisdom lineages—handed down across centuries and into the lap of Fu in the 1970’s.This delightful conversation offers our community a nourishing encounter with a Zen elder—a holder of wisdom who can provide gems for facing life’s mysteries and hardships. With much kindness and a great deal of playful insight, Fu shares key elements of the Zen way and her path with it. She offers us gems for how we can face our mind, our suffering, and the vastness of being. She shows us how the path of Zen—quietude, or “just sitting,” gives us access to calm and negotiate change and the jaw-dropping truth of impermanence. In this show, we come to learn how Zen offers mental clarity and abiding presence for the human soul. Born out of Buddha's path and transmitted for generations, Fu walks us through the accuracy and the medicine of the Four Noble Truths. We find we are not the first to struggle with the nature of the mind or the reality of death.Episode #37 invites us into the teachings of the Zen path. In Fu, we find a kind, frank, and mirthful sojourner, who is not only a fantastic conversationalist but a teacher who is equally poetic and practical. Listen in to this one because it is not often in today’s world someone can steadfastly point us toward the vastness of reality—be it the experience of the Moon, the sound of the rain, or the courage to Leap into the Yellow River. About Fu: Furyu Nancy Schroeder, a resident of San Francisco Zen Center since the 1970s, became Abiding Abbess at Green Gulch Farm Zen Center in March 2014 and stepped down from that role in March 2023. Fu has held most of the monastic positions at SF Zen Center and has been an active supporter of programs for children, people of color, the gay and lesbian community, and the interfaith community. In 2008 she was elected to the Marin Women's Hall of Fame, and in 2010 she was appointed to the Board of the Marin Community Foundation. In addition, she has previously co-led SF Zen Center's Contemplative Caregiver Course. She received Dharma Transmission from Tenshin Reb Anderson in 1999.

In Bonus Episode #07, Tobin Mayell joins the show for the first of a two-part conversation honoring the lives of his late parents—Norm Mayell and Christine Waddell. Here, Tobin recounts for us the core elements in his relationship with Norm—open-heartedly offering glimpses into the arc of the their father-son story. From early, unrequited longings to adult acceptances and eventually to the transmissions found in Norm’s passing away from cancer in August of 2022, we come see that the father-son relationship has many moments over the course of time and just how much can live inside one parent-child relationship.We learn that Norm was a drummer in such bands as Sopwith Camel, Blue Cheer, and Norman Greenbaum, frequently taking him on the road while Tobin lived with his mother. We also learn that Norm later became a devout golfer, finding a spiritual magic in the game. Across his life we come to see that among other things, Norm lived with a kind-of private wisdom and natural magnetism that drew people towards him.Through this conversation with the How Humans Work show host, Jef Szi, Tobin helps us realize how death and life work hand-in-hand to give us unexpected teachings. Much was born for Tobin in his father’s dying process. Tobin’s own musical calling found new energy as the journey to memorialize his father placed Tobin—literally and figuratively—behind Norm’s drumkit. As Tobin finds himself playing Norm’s drums, singing his songs, and playing with Norm’s former bandmates is a symmetry that is as satisfying as it is moving. Equally profound is hearing the unguarded connection that accompanies the moment—how childhood hungers were able to come full circle in ways that only Tobin can express. Looking Into the Beyond offers a profound validation the web of life. It shows us something of the essence of Norm’s life as a man, a father, and musician, but it also shows us how the act of death is generative to those that live—releasing unfinished hurts and inspiring the energy of life to continue. As always, you are invited to listen-in, because in these two episodes that dive into Tobin’s very personal journey of losing both his parents within months of one another, we get a real dose of how life and death collaborate in ways that are impossible to know beforehand.