Human Restoration Project

We're recording this episode the week the Iowa DOGE Task Force released their final 136 page report – you heard that right, that's the state-level version of the Department of Government Efficiency convened by our governor back in February, tasked with maximizing return on investment of Iowa taxpayer dollars. As you can imagine, among their recommendations are ideas from the Return on Taxpayer Investment Working Group about improving education results "aimed at delivering greater value for taxpayers." Fortunately for Iowans, this working group assembled a crack team of experienced education experts for the job, including the CEO of an ethanol plant, the former Chair of the Iowa Racing and Gaming Commission, and the chair of a civil engineering firm. Among their recommendations are to: "Establish a merit-based compensation framework –including a bonus structure, teacher professional development and incentives for those in high-need schools in order to improve student outcomes and financially reward high-performing teachers." Merit-pay is of course a tried, tested, and failed idea. But teacher salaries are just one thread in the complex tapestry of how states pay for public education and the ideological tug of war in our public debates over school funding – how we pay for buildings, pensions, special education, Title 1, school food programs…every cost that goes into making schooling work…or not. If the Iowa DOGE report and the policy agenda that will inevitably follow could be titled As Privatized as Possible – doubling down on outcome-based school funding and accountability measures and even recommending AI-based bus route optimization to "cut costs and improve service"...what's the alternative? My guest today asks, "What would it mean to democratize school resources? What would it mean to have truly public schools, down to the very means of resource creation and distribution that fuels them…what will it take to make school as public as possible." It's also the title of his upcoming book, As Public as Possible: Radical Finance for America's Public Schools out this December. You can preorder it now from The New Press. David Backer is the author. He's an associate professor of education policy at Seton Hall University whose research, teaching, and organizing focus on ideology and school finance. A former high school teacher, his research has appeared in a half dozen scholarly journals like the Harvard Education Review as well as popular venues like The American Prospect and Jacobin. And you can find him on social media @schooldaves. As Public As Possible (The New Press) [https://thenewpress.org/books/as-public-as-possible/?v=eb65bcceaa5f] @SchoolDaves TikTok [https://www.tiktok.com/@schooldaves]

Today's episode is Dr. Sarah Fine's keynote, the Quest for Authenticity: Lessons in Powerful Learning from the Fringes, from our Conference to Restore Humanity back in July of this year. As Dr. Fine argues, the limits of our grammar of schooling and the metaphors we use to think about teaching and learning are constraining, but there is nothing inevitable or inherent about them. This is the throughline in her observation of co-constructed and collaborative humanized learning spaces, where inevitability gives way to possibility predominates. Not only is it possible to change the grammar of schooling, but that humanizing grammar already exists within even the most traditionally structured school, Sarah argues, in electives, clubs, and extracurriculars, in the periphery. These spaces, she points out, offer "the hallmarks of a learner-centered system: trust, safety, & authentic care, where learners and educators codesign coursework." As Sarah and her co-author Jal Mehta urge in their 2019 book, In Search of Deeper Learning, "We need to change student learning, so we need to change schools, so we need to change systems." Video version on the Human Restoration Project YouTube channel [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3YUbFh5y3k] Q&A w/ Dr. Sarah Fine [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSsfx0Xoje4]

Please note that Human Restoration Project is a 501(c)3 nonprofit organization and that this interview is not an endorsement of Morales as a candidate for office. Before Howie Morales became Lieutenant Governor of New Mexico, before he was ever a state senator, he was a teacher and a state-championship winning baseball coach in rural New Mexico. He also holds a Master's in bilingual education and a doctorate in curriculum and instruction. So it'd be difficult, it seems, to understand what he's accomplished in those elected positions except through the lens of his experience in the classroom. And he joins me to talk about that experience, how it informs his work and achievements in office, and the challenges New Mexico public school students, families, and teachers still face.

"Any assessment of the potential of AI to contribute to education must begin with an accurate understanding of the nature of the outputs of AI," my guests today write, "The most important reason to resist the use of AI in universities if that its outputs are fundamentally bullshit – indeed, strictly speaking, they are meaningless bullshit." That particular term of art may appear to be attention-seeking or dismissive of the issue of AI entirely, but it's actually the root of a much deeper philosophical critique, like the late anthropologist David Graeber's notion of "bullshit jobs", but leveled at Generative AI and the way it distorts the purpose and function of teaching, learning, and education itself. My guests today are Robert Sparrow and Gene Flenady, professor and lecturer, respectively, in philosophy at Monash University in Melbourne, Australia, where they join me from, and they are collaborators on two recent articles: Bullshit universities: the future of automated education and Cut the bullshit: why Generative AI systems are neither collaborators nor tutors. As a heads up, we're gonna be saying bullshit a LOT, sometimes in an academic context, sometimes not so much. Bullshit universities: the future of automated education [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00146-025-02340-8] Cut the bullshit: why GenAI systems are neither collaborators nor tutors [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13562517.2025.2497263]

"The problems we face are not the fault of any single individual or organisation. They are often the by-product of good intentions. And yet, alongside children and young people and their parents and carers, it's educators who are most exposed to these pressures – who confront them every day, and try to make it all work regardless," writes today's guest in a piece from May titled Confronting the educational polycrisis. Joining us from Brighton, UK Dr James Mannion is a keynote speaker, teacher trainer, researcher, consultant and author with a passion for educational and political reform. He is the co-founder and Director of Rethinking Education, a teacher training organisation specialising in implementation and improvement science, self-regulated learning and practitioner inquiry. A former teacher of 12 years, James has an MA in person-centred education from the University of Sussex and a PhD in self-regulated learning from the University of Cambridge. He is also the host of the popular Rethinking Education podcast, of which I have been a huge fan for a long time. In fact, HRP contributed the very first video essay we ever made to a virtual arm of James's Rethinking Education Conference back in 2022. This conversation crossover has certainly been a long time coming! "We have multiple crises on our hands," James writes, "They interact and have become entangled. This makes them difficult to resolve - but resolve them we must." And my hope today is that even if we can't untangle the polycrisis today, we can at least get a better grasp and perhaps loosen their hold on our education systems. https://drjamesmannion.substack.com/ https://makingchangestick.substack.com/ https://www.educationpa.org/ https://wssnow.org/ https://www.ucyottawa.com/invitation-to-the-rcen-book-club/

At the time of recording, New York Magazine had released an article titled "Everyone is Cheating Their Way Through College: How ChatGPT has Unraveled the Entire Academic Project" [https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/openai-chatgpt-ai-cheating-education-college-students-school.html] which launched a thousand takes. The piece outlines an arms race, characterized as "a siege on education" between college professors, sneaking white-text Trojan horse prompts like "mention Dua Lipa" to confound the chatbots, and students, one of which is quoted as saying, "the ceiling has been blown off" cheating. One ethics professor elaborates to add that, "Massive numbers of students are going to emerge from university with degrees, and into the workforce, who are essentially illiterate. Both in the literal sense and in the sense of being historically illiterate and having no knowledge of their own culture, much less anyone else's." Which captures, in my opinion, the overall tone of the piece: college is an expensive and fixed game that students endure on their way to credentials and that institutions are powerless in a losing battle to stop. Education and learning have…little to do with it. But it's also a chicken-egg issue where institutions of higher education are themselves contributing to the same attitudes they're complaining about: if students copy-paste a prompt from Blackboard into the chatbot, copy-paste the output, and submit it all to be read and graded…by an AI…whose problem is that? My favorite take on the topic of AI in education is a satire meant to be read in the bulldog diction of philosopher-provocateur Slavoj Zizek: "That AI will be the death of learning and so on; to this, I say NO! My student brings me their essay, which has been written by AI, & I plug it into my grading AI, and we are free! While the 'learning' happens, our superego satisfied, we are free now to learn whatever we want. This is all to say that the conversation with my guest today, Texas educator Chanea Bond, was prompted by all of this, as she shared the New York Magazine piece with the challenge, "Somebody invite me on your podcast to talk about this article!" and three weeks later…here we are. I'm hoping today to get Chanea's insight on the impact of AI in education and so much more facing teachers, students, and schools in 2025. EduTopia - Why I'm Banning Student AI Use This Year [https://www.edutopia.org/article/banning-student-ai-use-chanea-bond/] by Chanea Bond

Our conversation today is with educator, author, and Director of National Faculty at PBLWorks, Ryan Sprott, about one of the most contentious topics in education today, that is Teaching Contentious Topics in a Divided Nation: A Memoir and Primer for Pedagogical Transformation, which is also the title of his self-published book. In this conversation we be talk about his experience teaching an inquiry approach to teaching contentious topics. In part time project-based inquiry, his students in Texas, of all places, engaged with some of the most difficult open-ended, wicked questions around, as Ryan refers to them, "A question to open hearts and minds"– What is the purpose of a border and what has shaped your answer to this question? How can we improve energy policy and what has shaped your answer to this question? And what is the purpose of school and what has shaped your answer to this question? Students visited the Texas border with Mexico, worked with immigrant aid organizations and hosted dialogue with Border Patrol agents. They visited Texas oil fields to speak with oilmen on the ground, engaged in interviews, documented their experiences in field journals, created collaborative community art projects, and so much more. You'll hear student testimonials about how they came away transformed forever by the experience. Ryan Sprott @ PBLWorks [https://www.pblworks.org/author/ryan-sprott] Teaching Contentious Topics in a Divided Nation (Amazon) [https://www.amazon.com/Teaching-Contentious-Topics-Divided-Nation/dp/B0DGRPB45J]