It Shouldn't Be This Hard

What happens when the company you built to change the world starts drifting away from the very values it was founded on?In Part 1 of this conversation, co-hosts Phil White and Heidi Schoeneck are joined by Jeffrey Hollender — co-founder of Seventh Generation, professor at New York University Stern School of Business, social entrepreneur, and author of Built for a Better World — to unpack the uncomfortable realities behind building a purpose-driven business inside systems that are designed to reward the opposite.Jeffrey reflects candidly on the rise of Seventh Generation, the mistakes he made while scaling the business, and the painful realization that purpose alone isn’t enough to protect a mission.But this episode goes beyond one company’s story.It explores the deeper structural tension sitting at the heart of responsible business today:Why do so many businesses want to do the right thing… yet still struggle to do the right things?From investor misalignment and growth addiction to systems thinking, leadership consciousness, and the growing fear around speaking publicly about sustainability, this conversation unpacks why purpose-driven business can feel so difficult — even for the pioneers who helped define it.Key Takeaways:- What Jeffrey Hollender learned after being fired from Seventh Generation- Why mission-driven businesses often break when values collide with growth pressure- How investor misalignment can slowly erode a company’s purposeWhy “doing the right thing” doesn’t always translate into “doing the right things”- The role systems thinking plays in sustainability leadership-Why businesses need cultures built around consciousness, not just compliance- How political and cultural pressure is fueling sustainability silence and green-hushing- Why community is essential for sustaining purpose-driven leadershipTimestamps:00:00 – Introduction: building purpose-driven brands inside broken systems01:00 – Jeffrey Hollender’s journey as a lifelong social entrepreneur02:32 – The painful reality of getting fired from the company you built05:10 – Being “ahead” without bringing people along07:37– Why hiring and cultural alignment matter more than strategy10:05 – Why business systems often reward unethical behavior12:45 – Sustainability as an endless hurdle race14:28 – Why business isn't stepping up 16:40 – The gap between doing the right thing vs. the right things17:14 – Why not all sustainability actions are created equalAbout the Show:It Shouldn’t Be This Hard is the podcast for leaders, founders, and change-makers navigating the messy intersection of purpose and performance — exploring why doing the right thing in business can feel far harder than it should. Additional Resources:🤖 Meet Gaia, Grounded’s sustainability AI:https://grounded.world/gaia🌍 Get Grounded: https://grounded.world/#Sustainability #Business #ClimateLeadership #ESG #SocialEntrepreneurship #JeffreyHollender #SeventhGeneration #ItShouldntBeThisHard

Every April 22nd, a billion people across 193 countries do something for the planet. Companies make bold commitments. Partnerships get announced. And then April 23rd arrives.For businesses building sustainability into how they actually operate (not just how they communicate) that day after is the real test. Because the ROI of Earth Day isn't in the moment. It's in the partnerships that outlast the press release, the operational changes that compound year over year, and the culture that doesn't need a calendar reminder to care.In this special Earth Day episode of It Shouldn't Be This Hard, co-hosts Phil White and Heidi Schoeneck sit down with Kathleen Rogers, President of EarthDay.org — one of the most recognized environmental platforms on the planet — to ask the question she returns to every single year: What do we do the day after Earth Day?From the paradox of growing awareness alongside growing powerlessness, to the equity arguments hiding inside the word "environment," to what it actually takes to keep a billion-person movement going — this is a conversation about turning caring into action. Not just on April 22nd. Every day.Key Takeaways:Why awareness and powerlessness are growing at the same time and what that means for anyone trying to drive changeHow redefining "environment" as what surrounds you reframes sustainability as an equity issue, not just an ecological oneWhy the antidote to greenwashing fear isn't a better communications strategy How incremental progress beats absolutism when building movements that lastWhy the intention–action gap is as much a strategic problem as a communications oneWhat "the day after Earth Day" reveals about the difference between moments and movementsTimestamps:00:00 – Introduction: What do we do the day after Earth Day?01:08 – The paradox of awareness: more knowledge, more powerlessness03:50 – What does the ‘environment’ actually mean? And how a simple definition can change everything05:17 – Climate equity: who bears the real burden of environmental harm05:50 – Why companies are afraid to talk about climate change06:30 – Urban tree planting, community tools, and building the tent for the ‘do-gooders’ of the world 07:26 –The billion-person challenge: keeping momentum after April 22nd08:15 – Closing wisdom: nature as miracle, protector, and source of hopeAbout the Show It Shouldn't Be This Hard is the podcast for leaders, founders, and change-makers reimagining what good business looks like: real conversations, radical ideas, and the belief that purpose and profit can — and must — coexist.Hosted by Phil White and Heidi Schoeneck, the show explores how sustainability can drive business performance, especially under real commercial pressure. Season 2 continues those conversations at the intersection of purpose and performance — because the work matters every day, not just one day a year.Additional Resources: 🤖 Meet Gaia, our sustainability AI: https://grounded.world/gaia/ 🌍 Get Grounded: https://grounded.world/#EarthDay #Sustainability #ESG #ClimateAction #ItShouldntBeThisHard #EarthDayEveryDay

People don’t want to “be sustainable”... and Starbucks learned that the hard way. In this episode of It Shouldn’t Be This Hard, we learn from Amelia Landers, VP of Innovation at Starbucks, for a rare inside look at how one of the world’s most iconic brands is trying to close the intention–action gap for convenient -yet conscious- coffee. For Starbucks, convenience is everything. Millions of people move through stores every day with deeply ingrained habits, emotional attachments, and morning rituals that are hard to change. Yet these same rituals are where some of the biggest opportunities for sustainable behavior change actually live.Amelia Landers unpacks what she’s learned designing sustainability inside a global retail ecosystem where speed, consistency, and emotional comfort often outrank environmental intent. From reusable cup systems to packaging innovation, she shares how Starbucks is navigating circularity, consumer psychology, and systems change in real time.This conversation is honest, practical, human — and required listening for anyone trying to make corporate sustainability work at scale.Key Takeaways:Why “being sustainable” doesn’t motivate customers — but “making their world better” does: Sustainability is a polarizing identity; personal impact is a universal motivator.How Starbucks is tackling the convenience vs. sustainability paradox: Behavior change happens when sustainable choices are just as easy, seamless, and convenient as the familiar ones.Reusable cups as behavior design — not just waste reduction: A small but passionate group of customers proved that ritual, identity, and emotional connection drive adoption.Why circularity requires collaboration, not competition: Infrastructure, regulation, and recycling systems can’t be solved by one brand alone — “there is no IP in sustainability.”Progress over perfection in corporate sustainability: Sustainable innovation demands humility, experimentation, and the courage to move without all the answers.How Starbucks uses data, customer insights, and waste tracking to measure real impact: Metrics matter — especially when they reinforce behavior change and customer engagement.Timestamps:00:00 – Introduction 02:00 – Amelia’s path from brand building at P&G to sustainable innovation at Starbucks06:00 – Entering sustainability naively and discovering the complexity of systems change08:04 – The convenience paradox: why “easy” always wins (and what Starbucks is doing about it)10:30 – Designing reusable cup programs and customer-driven packaging innovation14:07 – The hard parts: regulation, infrastructure, and the limits of what one company can control16:01 – EPR legislation and the messy reality of circularity17:49 – Progress, not perfection: leadership lessons from Starbucks’ sustainability evolution19:46 – Influence without authority: navigating internal tensions25:37 – Why tracking matters: measuring waste, behavior change, and customer engagement28:38 – How different customer groups perceive Starbucks’ sustainability work29:51 – Amelia’s closing wisdom: “Action is the antidote to despair.”Additional Resources:🤖 Meet Gaia, our sustainability AI: https://shorturl.at/zHp81🌍 Get Grounded: https://shorturl.at/SXFdo _It Shouldn’t Be This Hard is the podcast for leaders, founders, and change-makers reimagining what good business looks like — real conversations, radical ideas, and the belief that purpose and profit can (and must) coexist.

Can a company built on cigarettes build a future without them?In this episode of It Shouldn’t Be This Hard, we sit down with Jennifer Motles, Chief Sustainability Officer at Philip Morris International, to explore what it takes to transform one of the world’s most controversial industries from the inside out.Jennifer shares her experience leading ESG strategy within a global company undergoing an unprecedented shift — from selling cigarettes to building a smoke-free future. She unpacks the human and moral challenges of aligning business, purpose, and science in real time, and why sustainable transformation requires more than targets — it requires trust.From corporate accountability to systems change, this conversation dives into how business can evolve beyond compliance and start designing for regeneration.Key Takeaways:How Philip Morris International is navigating its transition toward a smoke-free future and the structural challenges that come with it.Why ESG needs to move beyond reporting and into strategy, leadership, and cultural transformation.The importance of moral courage and transparency in driving change within legacy industries.Why the future of sustainability lies in systems thinking, empathy, and long-term value creation.Timestamps:00:00 – Introduction: What a “future without cigarettes” really means05:00 – Jennifer’s path from public policy to corporate sustainability08:39 – Rethinking ESG: moving from metrics to meaning09:30 – The business case for transformation in legacy industries11:02 – What does a smoke-free future look like?13:08 – The tension between transparency and progress13:30 – Systems thinking and redefining corporate responsibility20:15 – Leadership lessons for the next era of sustainability26:00 – Closing reflections: building trust in transformationAdditional Resources:🤖 Meet Gaia, our sustainability AI: https://shorturl.at/zHp81🌍 Get Grounded: https://shorturl.at/SXFdo _It Shouldn’t Be This Hard is the podcast for leaders, founders, and change-makers reimagining what good business looks like — real conversations, radical ideas, and the belief that purpose and profit can (and must) coexist.

Rethinking Leadership for Universal Flourishing: Karimah Hudda on Systems Change, Courage, and ImpactLeadership is hard. Leading with impact? Even harder.In this episode of It Shouldn’t Be This Hard, co-hosts Heidi Schoeneck and Phil White sit down with Karimah Hudda, Systems Change Catalyst and Founder of illumine.earth, to uncover how courageous, purpose-driven leadership can overcome the barriers built into today’s business systems.From Fairtrade farms to the boardrooms of Nike and Mondelēz, Karimah has spent 20+ years leading global transformation. She shares how to unlock human potential, navigate systemic resistance, and create lasting impact — all while redefining what leadership really means.In this episode, you’ll learn:Why courage and consciousness matter more than conformity in leadership.How to navigate corporate and systemic barriers that slow change.The difference between compliance-driven and purpose-driven leadership.Practical ways to drive impact across industries and continents.Why universal flourishing should be the ultimate goal of every leader.Key Takeaways & Timestamps: 00:00 – Introduction 03:00 – Karimah’s journey from India to global systems change 06:45 – Leading across agriculture, corporate, and nonprofit sectors 10:00 – Courage vs. conformity: the leadership mindset 13:30 – Unlocking universal flourishing in business 18:00 – Overcoming systemic resistance and barriers 22:15 – Actionable tips for impact-driven leaders 27:00 – Karimah’s one piece of advice for every changemakerAdditional Resources:✨ Get Grounded: https://bit.ly/3IYofhD🔥 Meet Gaia, our sustainability AI: https://shorturl.at/VVdPS__It Shouldn’t Be This Hard is the podcast for leaders, founders, and change-makers navigating the complexities of responsible business. Expert insights, practical strategies, and our resident AI Gaia make leading with impact feel a little less daunting — and a lot more inspiring.

Welcome back to It Shouldn’t Be This Hard — the podcast where we dig into sustainability, purpose, and the messy, human side of making change… because the world desperately needs more of it.This week, our co-hosts Heidi Schoeneck and Phil White are joined by David Katz, CEO & Founder of Plastic Bank, the social fintech behind a global bottle deposit program that helps end poverty and stop plastic pollution.David brings raw honesty and unfiltered wisdom to the conversation, challenging us to rethink not only how we view plastic, but also how we define progress and prosperity.In this episode, David opens up about:Why inspiration without action is meaningless.The uncomfortable truth: big companies choose not to act, even when the path forward is obvious.The difference between profitability and prosperity and why prosperity creates exponential impact.Why he refuses to label plastic simply as “waste” or “garbage,” and what happens when we start seeing materials for their potential, not their disposal.His personal shift away from seeking external validation or accomplishments, and toward the deeper work of healing humanity and the planet.With a model built on dignity, purpose, and circularity, Plastic Bank is turning one of the world’s biggest problems into a pathway for prosperity.Tune in to hear one of the most provocative and inspiring conversations we’ve had yet and discover why ending plastic pollution shouldn’t be this hard.Key Takeaways Introduction (00:00)From inspiration to action (3:05)Why companies “choose not to act” (5:16)The challenge we all need to address (7:31)Profit vs. prosperity (10:33)Plastic Bank’s prosperity mindset (12:05)The hardest part of the journey (12:23)Letting go of validation (13:00)The deeper work of healing (16:22)Additional Resources✨ Get Grounded: https://grounded.world/🔥 Meet Gaia, our sustainability AI: https://grounded.world/gaia/—It Shouldn’t Be This Hard is a podcast for businesses striving to grow sustainably while navigating the complexities of doing good. With expert insights, real-world strategies, and our resident AI, Gaia, to answer your burning questions, we make building a successful, responsible business feel a little less daunting (and a lot more fun).Don’t forget to follow/subscribe so you never miss a new episode!

Welcome to the VERY FIRST episode of It Shouldn’t Be This Hard, where we discuss all things sustainability… because the world ALWAYS needs more of it! We’re excited to kick things off with a real conversation about career pivots, personal growth, the importance of ethical journalism, and why sometimes the best thing that can happen to you is also the most unexpected. Meet Kathy Baird Westfall, our amazing guest for this inaugural episode, who's been through the ringer in her career and is now taking a step back to focus on what’s next. And by the way, she’s LOVING being unemployed for the first time since she was fourteen. Yep, you heard that right!Kathy takes us through her journey, from the whirlwind of agency life to transitioning into corporate at Nike, and how all of that shaped her views on leadership and the changing dynamics in the workplace. She also gives us her thoughts on why DEI is still such a hot, polarizing topic today. (Spoiler alert: She’s got some strong opinions, and we’re here for it). Along the way, Kathy talks about her love for lifelong learning and staying grounded in your values. Finally, Kathy also discusses the importance of local journalism, why it’s under more threat than ever right now, and why news deserts are one of the greatest threats to our democracy right now.We’re not saying she’s got the secret sauce to life… but we’re kind of saying she does.Tune in now to learn more about Kathy’s journey, where she’s going, and how she sees the future of journalism.Key Takeaways: Introduction (00:00)On being unemployed for the first time since age 14 (02:45)How getting recruited by Nike changed Kathy’s life (05:31)Kathy’s lifelong passion for learning and teaching (06:57)Transitioning from agency life to corporate culture (08:14)The challenges facing the press today (13:24)Helping people understand the information they need (18:19)What continues to frustrate Kathy (19:37) Why DEI remains a contentious and polarizing issue (20:48)What skills will leaders need in the age of AI? (27:33)Additional Resources:✨ Get Grounded: https://grounded.world/🔥 Meet Gaia, our sustainability AI: https://grounded.world/gaia/ —It Shouldn’t Be This Hard is a podcast for businesses striving to grow sustainably while navigating the complexities of doing good. With expert insights, real-world strategies, and Gaia AI to answer your burning questions, we make building a successful, ethical business feel a little less daunting (and a lot more fun).Don’t forget to follow/subscribe so you never miss a new episode!