Jewelry Journey Podcast

What you'll learn in this episode: How Sharon's own jewelry journey began and how her family is preserving her exceptional collection. Who Sharon considers her most memorable guests and which insights stuck with her over the years. What prompted Sharon to travel the world to study jewelry, and what she learned during her decades of studying the art form. Sharon's tips for new podcasters on how to create a show with longevity. How you can share your memories of Sharon and continue to connect with the Jewelry Journey community. About Sharon Berman Sharon Berman is managing principal of Berbay Marketing & Public Relations, specializing in working with professionals to create the visibility and credibility that fuel revenue growth. After 20 years of positioning lawyers and other trusted advisors as experts, Sharon launched Arts and Jewelry and expanded her scope to include professionals in the decorative arts and jewelry fields. A passionate jewelry collector, Sharon is studying for her GIA Graduate Gemology diploma. She is on the Board of Art Jewelry Forum, and is a member of the Association for the Study of Jewelry & Related Arts, American Society of Jewelry Historians, Society of Jewellery Historians and Society of North American Goldsmiths. Sharon writes and speaks frequently about business development and marketing for professionals. She has been a speaker at the Antique & Estate Jewelry Conference ("Jewelry Camp"). Sharon earned her undergraduate degree at UCLA and her MBA at USC. Additional Links to Articles About Sharon and Her Life: Berbay Art Jewelry Forum For donations in lieu of flowers, please follow the next link to Simms Mann program at UCLA, which was important to Sharon and Jonathan: Donations Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception. Sharon: Hello, everyone! Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Jonathan: In fact, it's not going to be Sharon today. I'm Jonathan Kramer, known to some as Mr. Sharon Berman, and I'll open this podcast with some news, not unexpected in some quarters. Sharon passed away in August 2024 from the long-term effects of cancer. Sharon lived a long and productive life. Even after her cancer diagnosis some nine years ago and her prognosis that she would only live for five years, she soldiered through, did an amazing job of prolonging her life, and in some important ways, did that through this Jewelry Journey Podcast. In the podcast you're about to hear, Sharon's jewelry journey is going to be the subject. My youngest daughter, Aleah Kramer, is interviewing Sharon. This interview took place a couple of months before Sharon's passing. It's going to be the same thing you've heard before about a person's jewelry journey, but it's going to be very personal to Sharon. Sharon's jewelry journey with me began 32 plus years ago when we were dating each other, and it was very clear that we were going to get married. Sharon made it very clear that I should not bother to buy her an engagement ring and that she would take care of that herself. That was very typical of the Sharon I would come to know and love and typical of her approach to jewelry. She didn't want to leave it to me to pick out her engagement ring and just said to me, "Don't worry about that." She ended up ordering some diamonds to evaluate from Empire State Jewelers in the Empire State Building. I remember that. She picked out the stone she liked, and she picked out the setting that she wanted it to be and had it constructed. That should have told me three decades ago that I was with a very special woman who knew her taste in jewelry and wasn't going to be sidetracked in that. That was actually the beginning of my jewelry journey with Sharon. Her jewelry journey has been one of passion and pleasure, and she's become quite the well-known person, even before she began this series of podcasts. I'm amazingly proud of what she's accomplished in terms of her own jewelry journey, and I have to say she's had an exquisite palate in the selecting and enjoyment of jewelry. She didn't just buy jewelry to collect it. She wore her jewelry all the time. It was a source of pleasure, and it made her feel comfortable. Her jewelry was a source of comfort for her. She would find these incredible makers and go out and interview them and purchase their goods. She really supported emerging artists. That was one of the gateways to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. She wanted to share that enthusiasm for the up-and-coming makers with people that she talked with all the time. The more she talked to people, the more people said, "You know what? You should do a podcast and share this." That's how the Jewelry Journey Podcast really started, some 225-ish episodes ago. We're going to leave the podcast up for people to listen to and hopefully enjoy and learn from. It will be a good and honorable tribute to Sharon's jewelry journey to do that. With that, I'm going to let Aleah do the magic of editing here. She's been the editor of these podcasts and has done an amazing job pulling all of this together. I am deeply grateful for her participation in the podcast and, more importantly, the fact that she and Sharon were really partners in this jewelry journey. I am indebted to Sharon for really opening Aleah's eyes to the jewelry journey. Aleah has become an exquisite collector and has gotten as much joy out of collecting as Sharon. With that, we'll go to the podcast that Sharon talks about her jewelry journey, and then I'll come back at the end to close this out. Sharon: Welcome to the Jewelry Journey. I'm your host, Sharon Berman, and today we have a bit of a different episode. I have a few announcements to make, and then I'm going to share some of my jewelry journey. To help me with that, I'm going to introduce Aleah Kramer. First, thank you all for listening. If this is your first time, a big welcome. If you are familiar with this podcast, welcome back. I'm sorry to report that we suddenly lost several gems in the jewelry world. One of them is Cookie Lewis, who I can't say had a defined role, but she was my best friend. I've known her for 30 years and have been very friendly for the past 20 years, and she really got me into jewelry. Cookie was a very nice person, but I think anybody who knew her for any length of time would say she's a tough cookie. She had definite opinions that were difficult to change. I wouldn't always listen, but I knew she knew her stuff. I saw salespeople who would look at her when she contradicted them. They would look at her like, "Lady, you don't know what you're talking about," but they'd go back and ask, and sure enough, she was right. Then they would take something out of one case and put it in another. She knew her stones and could always identify the flaws in stones much better than I could, despite all the study I've done. Cookie Lewis will be missed. The next gem that we lost is Robert Allen. Robert did our transcriptions. Robert did transcriptions for me for eight to 10 years, but for the Jewelry Journey since its inception. He had great analytical skills, as did Cookie, but they were both creative in their different ways. In my experience, I've found that people who are good at analysis aren't really the best people for creative endeavors. I thought they both could look outside of their analytical areas and look at the creative aspects of their profession. For instance, every year about Christmas time, Robert Allen would call me with a different idea. "Hey Sharon, I was thinking, what do you think of this?" Then he'd go into it. I can't tell you that I always accepted them or implemented them, but I thought it was really nice that he thought about it. I'll miss that. Our new co-host has been involved in the podcast for a long time but behind the scenes. Now she's coming out of the shadows. Her name is Aleah Kramer, and she's been a producer, an editor, a transcriber, and a pinch hitter. She's also my stepdaughter. She's also joined me on several voyages that I've gone on for the Jewelry Journey, and I would say that is really her métier. She knows it very well, art jewelry. Aleah: Thank you so much, Sharon. That was such a lovely introduction. Hi, everybody. My name is Aleah Kramer, and I am so excited that we're going to share some of your jewelry journey today. Sharon, you always ask your guests a few important questions, and I've always wondered what your answers to these questions are. I wanted to ask you, how did you first become interested in jewelry? Sharon: I think I first became interested in jewelry because I liked jewelry, but really it was Cookie Lewis who drew me into jewelry. She introduced me to estate jewelry, and from there I was off and running. Aleah: What are some of your favorite types of jewelry? Sharon: I like contemporary jewelry, some art jewelry. I used to like it a lot more. And estate jewelry of any kind. By estate jewelry, I mean used jewelry. That's how most people would define it. Aleah: I often hear you ask your guests about collecting and what defines a collector. What do you define as a collector? Sharon: That's a hard-to-answer question. I've been asked that before. I still don't have a good answer. What is a collector? A collector can be somebody who has three or more of the same kind of piece, three or more pieces by the same named jeweler or the same named maker. I really don't have a definition, and here I'm asking everybody who comes on what they define as a collector. Somebody told me they thought they were a really good shepherd of jewelry, and I thought that was interesting. I'm not sure that really fits the bill, but it was interesting to hear. What do you define as a collector, Aleah? Aleah: Oh, I'm too early in the biz to have any definitions. I'm interested in exploring all of the avenues and creating some definitions, but I am definitely not defining anything yet. Sharon: Okay, I think that's very smart. Aleah: Do you have a favorite piece of jewelry? I know you have a beautiful and extensive collection. Do you have a favorite piece of jewelry or a favorite artist? Sharon: Well, I have maybe one or two pieces by named artists, Cartier, that sort of thing. But I don't collect Cartier. The name people, I might have one piece, not because I was collecting or gathering them together. Not, "Oh, I have a piece by A, now I want a piece by B or C." They just came to me, or I liked them. I don't have a favorite piece, except I would say there is a person in France who does beautiful, large rings. I happen to like statement jewelry. It has to be large, and it has to make a statement. It has to be a statement piece. Her name is Sylvie Corbelin, and she's represented here by Lionel Geneste. We just did a podcast with him. I'm probably butchering his name, but he represents her. She is a very talented and creative person. Aleah: She makes some really exquisite jewelry with high-end materials, such beautiful gold and such beautiful gemstones. They end up looking like paintings and works of art that you can wear on your finger or on your neck or as earrings. Sharon: It's a good way to describe it. Some of it is just very pretty! Pretty and unusual. Aleah: How long have you been a part of Art Jewelry Forum? Sharon: For about 10 years or more, but I was involved for maybe a couple of years. I'm not currently involved. I just look at what they have and the people they have on. Aleah: How did you get involved? How did you find them? Sharon: I found them because I was looking for ways to travel and learn about jewelry. When I found them, I didn't even know what art jewelry was, and I wasn't that interested. But when I saw that they were traveling, I was really interested. That's how I got involved. Aleah: What specifically about traveling to see jewelry interested you? Sharon: Because I like to travel and because there are very few places you can learn about jewelry by traveling. You know yourself there are only a few places. I could name them on one hand. I don't even need one hand. Aleah: How do you feel about the jewelry market in L.A.? Sharon: The jewelry market in L.A. is one-sided, and that's why I like to travel. Art jewelry really started out in Sweden, in Scandinavian countries, in the Netherlands. Here you don't see art jewelry. Here, I think it's very blingy, shiny. It has to catch your attention, and that makes sense. But it's not the kind I like. Aleah: Let's talk about the trips. About how many trips have you been on? Sharon: About seven or eight. Aleah: Do you remember the first trip that you took? Sharon: Well, you just reminded me. Abroad or with them? Aleah: Let's start with abroad trips, and then even national trips that you've done in America with Art Jewelry Forum. Sharon: Well, I think some of the most memorable trips—we went to some places I never thought we would be, like Estonia. The Netherlands is de rigueur, but Estonia, I was really surprised I was ever there. Where else did we go? Aleah: Do you remember the trips to Germany for Schmuck? Sharon: That's right. We took several trips to Germany because Schmuck is there. That's the name of it. Schmuck means jewelry in German, and it's the largest market for jewelry. Art jewelry is displayed there. People go one year, they skip a year, then they go another year, so that's where we went. I came across a sweater. It was an art jeweler sweater, but it was a sweater I got there. I thought, "Gee, I forgot I had this." That was a lot of fun. That's what I found with Art Jewelry Forum. If you travel a lot, you've seen things they're showing. Aleah: What inspired you to start the Jewelry Journey Podcast in 2019? Sharon: I'd been thinking about it for a long time, and I thought, "What better time than the present?" I wasn't sure what I was going to do with it, but I thought, "Just start it and see where it takes you." Aleah: What were some of the key goals or motivations when you launched the podcast? Sharon: I'm thinking about that. Just to study jewelry in more depth. That was one of my key goals. I like talking and thinking about jewelry. That was another key goal. It gave me an excuse to talk to a lot of the jewelers I knew who wouldn't talk to me. They were friendly, but they wouldn't necessarily talk to me unless I was asking them questions. Aleah: That's a really interesting answer. I hadn't thought about that as well. Sometimes when you're just talking to them, they're not that open. But when you get them into a podcast setting, they really do open up. You have really asked some interesting questions of people. Thank you for that answer. I'm really interested in that. In the 220 plus episodes that you've done, what have been some of the most memorable or impactful stories that you've covered? Sharon: I don't know if I have any that are so impactful, except one came from a jeweler. He said that the most important thing you have to remember when you're selling jewelry online is what the return policy is. I thought, "Well, he's really right." I've never forgotten that. That's probably the only thing I haven't forgotten. Aleah: That's a very important thing not to forget! Sharon: Yeah, but I think he's right. It was a good point. Aleah: What are some of the most important trends or developments you've observed in the jewelry industry over the past four years? Sharon: I would say, and I think a lot of people would agree with me, is probably the use of lab-grown diamonds becoming more accepted. They are a lot more accepted. Today I would look at them a second time in my jewelry. If somebody showed me a lab-grown diamond several years ago, I wasn't interested, but they've become a lot more acceptable in the past few years. Aleah: Which episodes or topics have resonated the most with you and with your listeners? I think you've really been impacted by cataloging. Sharon: Aleah, I think that's a very good point in that I've spent the past—what I thought was going to be three weeks—six months working with somebody to catalog my jewelry. Aleah and I tried various means. We tried Excel, and we tried all these different ways that were supposed to help you catalog your jewelry. I think we settled on one called Collector Systems. I resisted because that has a subscription of about $1,000 a year, but it's the best one. The best one I could find, at least. I do have to give credit to Mara, who helped me do it. She also helped Aleah do it. When she asked how long I thought it would take, I really thought it was going to take three weeks, but it took forever. I had more than I thought, and we try and keep it up to date. Aleah: It's absolutely been a fun challenge. Sharon: When I'm going to sleep at night, I think, "Oh, I have to tell Mara that I sold that, or I gave it away or I acquired this, so we keep it up to date." I'm usually behind the ball when it comes to that. Aleah: What have been some of the biggest challenges that you've faced in producing a weekly podcast about jewelry? Sharon: I haven't been able to think that far ahead. We've talked about starting a newsletter. I've wanted to be a few weeks ahead so I could announce things in the newsletter, but I've never been able to get more than a couple weeks ahead of what's coming up to let the listener know and to let the person that I'm interviewing know. By the time I contact them and they get back to me, which sometimes could be several weeks and occasionally it's been several months, it takes a lot longer. The thing that takes the most time on any podcast is the amount of time it takes. It's always lovely to get answers right away, but it doesn't happen that often. Aleah: Which guests or interviews stand out as being particularly insightful and eye-opening for you? Sharon: I have to think about that. I partially answered that question. It was Jeff Russak at Lawrence Jeffrey Estate Jewelers who told me what I needed to know about selling jewelry online. Besides that, Robert Lee Morris was a very interesting episode. There are a lot of episodes where I was told the person didn't have a lot to say, so they said they would stay within the half hour or 20 minutes or whatever, and an hour in I'd have to stop them because they were still going, and I hadn't said anything. They were very interesting, nonetheless. Aleah: How do you go about finding and selecting the guests you feature on your show? Sharon: Sometimes they come directly to me, which in the beginning really surprised me. Now they regularly come to me. If I read a name in the jewelry trades or in the newspaper, I'll circle it and pursue them. It's as simple as that. I may not know anything about them except that they're in the jewelry business, and I'll work on finding out more about them. I would say those are the two main ways. I think it's two main ways, they come to me, or I go after them. Aleah: In your opinion, what are the most exciting or innovative areas of art and contemporary jewelry? Sharon: I've recently learned that the Art Deco period was followed on the heels of Retro jewelry, and I like both periods. I like some art jewelry, but not all. There was a time when I liked all art jewelry, but I found that I really don't. I'm very particular about art jewelry. Contemporary jewelry is contemporary jewelry. If it's not one of those categories, I think it's contemporary jewelry. Aleah: I think that answered part of my next question, because I was going to ask how has the podcast helped expand your knowledge and appreciation of jewelry? Obviously, there are so many things you learn by just talking to so many people. Sharon: There's a lot I've learned and a lot you do learn. There's so much to learn. Aleah: What advice would you give to someone looking to start their own specialty podcast? Sharon: This isn't the first specialty podcast I've been involved in, but on any specialty podcast, any podcast in general, you have to be prepared, and you have to know that it takes time. I would say the thing that takes the most time is finding people and following up with them, booking the interview or whatever it is. It takes a lot of time. People don't think about that, and they don't work that into their story. Aleah: What have been some of the most rewarding aspects of hosting a long-running jewelry podcast? Sharon: That it's been long running. Long running is very exciting and rewarding. When people come to me and say, "I would really like to be on the Jewelry Journey," or "I found the Jewelry Journey online," I'm excited and rewarded by that. Aleah: I always think it's fun when people recognize you, too. When we're out at shows, they're like, "Wait, you're Sharon. Don't you host that jewelry podcast?" And I'm always like, "Yes, she does." Sharon: Yes, once in a while they recognize me. I don't show my face on anything, but somehow people have recognized me. You play a big part because you've taped some. We've done some live, and I hope to do more in the future. Aleah: Yeah, I think you're out there more than you think you are. Sharon: It's probably true. Other things I'm proud of are the three times I've been in the press. The first time was in the Financial Times. Then two or three weeks later, people called me and said, "I saw you in the New York Times." I was very surprised because one thing led to another, as it usually does in public relations. It turned out I was in the Financial Times, and I was in the New York Times. In November of 2023, the New York Times had a section called "Jewelry Podcasts Pick Up Some Glitter," and it mentioned me and other podcasts. I am so honored to be included among them. They list six, usually. The third time, the equivalent of GIA in the UK is called Gems&Jewellery, and I was in the autumn 2023 issue. It comes out four times a year, I think, or no more than six times a year. I was very impressed. They were doing a special on jewelry podcasts, and I was honored and excited to be included with them. I questioned, "Why are they asking me?" But they wrote their little blurb, and it was very nice. It was very exciting to have that memory, to cut it out, and to put it on my Instagram, which is @artsandjewelry, by the way. I would say those are the things that are exciting to me. Aleah: How do you maintain creativity and come up with new angles to explore in each episode? Sharon: Well, how do you maintain creativity is probably one of the key questions I have in my mind that I ask the jewelers. How does somebody who's been doing it for 20 years keep fresh and creative? I don't know, and I haven't found the formula for that. As I'm talking to somebody, a question usually comes up that I wouldn't have thought of beforehand, but as they're talking it prods something. Aleah: The best way is really to put yourself out there and listen to their story. You just hear it, and you want to know more. It's very organic for you. Sharon: Exactly, exactly. Organic is a very good word for it. Aleah: What role has social media played in growing and engaging your podcast audience? Sharon: Social media plays a key role. I don't know how I would distribute it or how people would find me if it weren't for social media. I have to remember that most of the people I talk with are on the younger side and they know social media, but a lot of people I talk to are exactly like me. "Can you tell me how to find the email again?" I have to remember that I play to both audiences. Aleah: Have you encountered any unique challenges in covering the jewelry industry, which is a very visual industry, through an audio format? Sharon: I haven't encountered any issues because this is a visual medium. What I've encountered is when a jeweler doesn't want to talk about their process. I've encountered that several times. It feels like they're giving away their secret sauce. They're afraid of it. Aleah: They're almost afraid to say too much. They think someone's going to replicate it. Sometimes when I'm listening, I'm like, "No, you have your own perspective. It's okay, tell us!" Sharon: That's true. If there's a unique challenge, that would be it, visual versus audio. I think the audio holds it up. I've broached that subject when I've asked people, "Do you think I should make the podcast visual also?" Usually I get a nay, that people like to listen to the podcast. They're like me. You listen to a podcast when you run or when you're doing something else. Aleah: You've expanded by adding photos on your website and adding photos on social media. Even though it's an audio-only format for your podcast, if you want to find more, it's always beautiful that you bring the photos to the website so that listeners can see more. Sharon: Aleah, you have said it better than I could have. Aleah: Which guests have provided you the most surprising or unexpected insights? Sharon: I don't know why, but there's a name that sticks in my mind a lot, probably because he's unique. I was thinking about it this morning. His name is Isaac Levy. It was Yvel jewelry, and Yvel is Levy backwards. I was surprised that he even said he would be on a podcast, because he really is an important guy. I remember him was saying, "Sure, why not?" and the way he said it was like, gosh, I wish everybody was that easy to ask if they can be on my podcast. He was such a nice guy but such an important guy, and he didn't start that way. His wife started it, and then he entered and worked with her. Aleah: I remember that too. She was the one who knew how to string pearls, and she taught him. They grew the brand together, the both of them. Looking back, is there anything you would have done differently in the early days of launching the podcast? Sharon: Now I'm a lot more comfortable. I do more prep than I used to, but I'm a lot more comfortable doing the podcast. When I listen and remember how it was in the beginning, I was very measured in the way I delivered. I read from a script. I don't have to do that anymore. I would just tell people to start by being themselves. Aleah: That's great advice. Do you have anything you'd like to ask of the jewelry world and of your listeners? Sharon: Of the jewelry world, I'd like to ask if they have something they'd particularly like to listen to or a subject they're interested in. I'd like them to let me know so I can look at how I can do that. Aleah: Is there anything I haven't asked that you've been thinking about, or that you want me to ask? Sharon: No, I think you've covered everything in a lot more depth than I expected it to be covered. Aleah: Thank you so much, Sharon. Sharon: Thank you, Aleah. Aleah: Before my dad, Jonathan, comes back to say a few final words, I wanted to take a moment to acknowledge that this is not the way we wanted to end this podcast, but since this was the end of Sharon's jewelry journey, and because she left an exquisite mark on the jewelry industry, we feel like this is the right way to leave a tribute to her. Her life was as beautiful as any piece of art or jewelry, and I'm going to continue to bring you stories, memories, photos and more from her jewelry journey. I would love to hear stories from you as well. In a moment, my father is going to tell you how you can share those. Before I finish, I just want to take a moment to thank Olivia Consol. She has also been an editor on this podcast since the beginning and has done tremendous work. Olivia, thank you so much. It's always a joy to work with you. Finally, thank you, Jewelry Journey listeners, friends and family. And now back to my dad, Jonathan. Jonathan: That was Sharon's jewelry journey, and I'm really glad that you listened all the way to the end of it. I hope that you gained a better insight into my bride of 32 years, who was on her jewelry journey even before I met her, and how much pleasure she got sharing the stories of up-and-coming makers, the interesting people she met along the way, the wonderful trips she took with the organizations she belonged to, and just how much this jewelry journey fed her inner being. We'll be linking to various articles about Sharon and items of interest that will help to round out her experience, her jewelry journey, the organizations that she enjoyed, some articles about Sharon's collecting, and things we think would be interesting to you, including photographs that show you a portion of her jewelry journey collection. I hope you find them interesting. I certainly have. I'd be very grateful if you would take a couple of minutes to leave your reviews of this podcast and your thoughts about Sharon, including anything you think would be interesting to share with us, her family, and with the larger community. I'll thank you for that in advance. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode: Jennifer's unique process of layering acrylic and art images, and how she discovered her signature technique. Why the most important thing a young artist can do is find their voice. Why Jennifer rarely uses images her customers request in her jewelry. How Jennifer's work ties into the history of pop and op art. Why Jennifer sees other art jewelers as inspiration, not competition. About Jennifer Merchant: Jennifer Merchant is a studio t based in Minneapolis, MN. She graduated with a BFA in Metals and Jewelry from the Savannah College of Art and Design. She is a full-time artist showcasing her work in galleries, museums and exhibitions. Her work has been published in several national magazines such as American Craft, Ornament and Delta Sky Magazine. Merchant is best known for her innovative layered acrylic process in which images and prints are layered between solid acrylic. Her work is graphic with clean lines and modern aesthetic. Pieces confound viewers, appearing transparent from one angle of view while showcasing bold patterns and colors from another. Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com Additional resources: Website Facebook Instagram Twitter Transcript: Like the op and pop art that inspires it, Jennifer Merchant's jewelry challenges your eye. Clear from some angles and bold and colorful from others, the jewelry is created by layering acrylic with images from art books. Jennifer joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she developed her technique; how she chooses the images in her jewelry; and why art jewelers need to work together to push the discipline forward. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week. Today, my guest is Jennifer Merchant. Jennifer was also a guest several years ago. She thought she would be a metalsmith but segued to acrylic jewelry, which is what she has become known for: creative and innovative acrylic jewelry such as necklaces, bracelets, earrings and brooches. They have eye-catching graphics embedded in them. I was also surprised to learn that hand carving is sometimes involved. Jennifer exhibits all over the country. She's been an active member of SNAG, the Society of North American Goldsmiths. She is also a member of other major jewelry organizations. Jennifer is going to tell us all about why she has chosen this route and her process in general. Jennifer, welcome to the program. Jennifer: Thank you so much for having me, Sharon. Sharon: I'm glad to have you. Why did you start working with acrylics? Jennifer: I actually started working with acrylic while I was still in college at the Savannah College of Art and Design studying metalsmithing and jewelry. Our professor gave us little chunks of acrylic one day, probably with the thought of using it for die forms. But I decided, "Hey, you can cut and sculpt this very similarly to working with waxes for lost wax casting." I liked the immediacy of the acrylic, that once you carved it and sculpted it and polished it, it was a finished piece. It had a lot of really cool optical properties. So, I always kept it on the back burner as an interesting material. Then when I graduated from college and I moved back to my hometown of Minneapolis, I didn't have the tools and equipment to keep working with metal. So, I kind of fell into, "Hey, there was that acrylic I worked with a couple of times in school. It was very interesting. Let's see what we can do with that," because it was cheap, and I could cut it with simple tools. I started experimenting with it from there. Sharon: And you make all sorts of jewelry with it. Do you know when you start out that you'll be making a necklace or a bracelet with the pieces you have, or do they talk to you as you put them together? Jennifer: I make pieces both ways. Sometimes I'll design a piece very specifically and have an idea and a picture in my mind of what I'm making. But then there's other times, especially when I'm working with the scraps that are left over from pieces that I've made in the past. A lot of those scraps are still very interesting, and they'll be in weird shapes. Those will speak to me, and I'll create something new and different with some of those. I kind of work both ways. Sharon: I know you're in a lot of stores and galleries. Do stores tell you what to do, or do you just say, "Here it is, do you like it"? Jennifer: I'm more of a, "Here's what I've been making. Let me know which ones you like." I think sometimes it's important to follow your own inspirations. People tend to be drawn to the things that I'm most excited to make. That being said, some galleries have different clientele bases with different price points, so they'll tell me, "Hey, these pieces were working really well." I'll take some feedback. But ultimately, I focus on making the things that I'm drawn to. Sharon: Do you have a studio inside your home or do you have a place that you go? Jennifer: For years I did have a studio outside of my home that I really loved, but a few years ago my husband and I bought a home, and I decided to move my jewelry practice into my home. So, now I work from home. But who knows, maybe in the future I'll expand a little bit and have another space in addition outside the home. It can be kind of a challenge working at home sometimes, but I've done both. I like working both ways, so we'll see what the future has for me. Sharon: Do you have assistants who work with you? Jennifer: I've had assistants in the past. I don't anymore. I scaled my business way back during COVID and took a breather to reevaluate what I'm doing and where my motivations are. I'm only just beginning to build it back. At this point, I don't work with anyone, but hopefully in the future I can find someone to help out with some of the production. It's a little challenging to find an assistant because my process is very unique. It's not something that people know how to do, so there's a lot of training involved. When I do work with people, it takes quite a while to get somebody that can help finish pieces to the quality standards that my galleries and clients expect. Sharon: When you were reevaluating things, what did you decide? Did your method change during COVID? Jennifer: I think things just slowed way down during COVID. 2020, honestly, it was going to be my year. I had a couple of really big events planned, one of which I got to do because it was in February, but the rest all moved online. There was such a lull in events and things to participate in. I had started questioning what my motivations are, because you really have to love what you're doing in order to be an artist as a profession. We had bought a house and were settling in. I've just been taking the last few years to figure out life so I can bring my A-game to my business again. Sharon: Did you stop production because you were doing it yourself during COVID? Jennifer: I did slow way down on production. If I had a client that was interested in something, or if I had an online event or that kind of thing, that would motivate me to produce some new pieces. But there were just fewer things going on to spark that creation. I have a harder time making things just because. I like to have an outside influence, like a show that's coming up or events that are going to happen and people are going to see my pieces. When I don't know when those things are going on, I have a little bit of a harder time. I think that is why during COVID, everything slowed down for me especially. But it also gave me a lot of time to think about what I want out of my business and where I want to go. And in May, I'll be launching my first web shop where you can actually buy my pieces directly from me. Sharon: Wow. I know that's a Herculean task. Jennifer: For me personally, the web shop is an extra big step because all of my pieces, even my production work, is one of a kind because of the images I'm using within my jewelry. They're all found images from art books and other sources. So, even if it's the same shape, like the marquee hoop earring, no two are going to be the exact same. So, every time I list a piece online for sale, I have to photograph each and every single one of them. It's taken a long time to get some of those things down where I could do it quickly enough and efficiently enough to be able to post all of these pieces with the right listings. It's a lot more work than having a design where you can put a picture of it and sell 25 of them. It's been a daunting thing to tackle. Sharon: Did you have to wait until you were efficient at photographing and making them so you could just churn them out? Jennifer: My work is very difficult to photograph because it is clear and transparent from some angles, and then it's bright and colorful from others. It's also very reflective. So, trying to photograph it cleanly and communicate the piece in a single image is very difficult. My work tends to resonate more from multiple angles. It has taken years to figure out the best way to represent these pieces in an image or two. Sharon: The online shop, do you think it's your most valuable social media outlet? Is there one? What do you think that is? Jennifer: For me, I'm not huge on social media. Instagram, I think, is the most fun. It's very image forward, which is something I really enjoy. Definitely, as I launch my website, I will be on social media a lot more to market. I think up until now I've mostly worked with galleries and shops or done specific events, so I haven't cultivated my online audience as much. I'm excited to explore that new chapter and get more into it and see what I can do from my home. That way in the future, when something happens where in-person events may not be happening as much, I can still have a connection to my audience. I've been getting asked for years, "Where can I find your pieces?" Because everything is one of a kind, if it's at a gallery in California, someone in Georgia is going to have a hard time getting their hands on it. I think it'll be really nice having my own shop so that people can have one destination to go, as well as all of the others, to be able to have that access. Sharon: How did you start getting galleries and stores interested in you? Jennifer: I have been contacted by most of the places that I work with. Earlier in my career, I did a lot more events and shows and I was able to meet gallery owners. Also, early on in my career, I met some of the people that work for the American Craft Council, which is based in Minneapolis. When they saw a local Minneapolis artist at a show in Chicago and met me and thought my work was cool, they were like, "You're in our city. Let's invite her to some events." They really took me under their wing and wrote about my work and got me out there. I got a lot of contacts just from people seeing the articles that they had posted. For me, it's been a lot of just doing what I do, and because my work is so unique and different, people that it resonates with will remember and contact me, like, "Hey, we've never seen anything like this. Let's try it out at our gallery." I've been very fortunate in that way, where I haven't really had to go out on my own, cold calling and trying to get appointments and that sort of thing. I just try to make really interesting work, get it out there as much as I can, and then hope that it snowballs from there. So far, that's been working for me. Sharon: Wow. I think it's great that you didn't have to cold call and that people were interested in your stuff, which is very unusual. I don't know anybody who does anything like that. So, you're very lucky. Jennifer: I'm very lucky that it worked out for me because I can be a little socially awkward with the cold calling and things like that. That was never my favorite part of the business. I am fortunate that my work speaks for itself. It's kind of a love it or hate it thing, which can be its own challenge, but it's definitely unique enough where when people see it, if they're interested, they will hunt me down and ask me about it. That's been very nice. Sharon: If an outlet wants more than one, maybe they want five bracelets, do you tell them right away that you can make the five bracelets, but they'll all have different graphics? Jennifer: Yeah. I did a couple wholesale shows a while ago where it was that challenge of, "Well, here's a design, but they're all going to be different, and you're not really going to know until you get them." I think most people that are interested in my work like that one-of-a-kind nature of it. That's part of the interest, so they trust me. If they get pieces that maybe that imagery doesn't speak to them or their clientele, we'll talk about it and I can swap it out, get them some prints and patterns that they like better. It's kind of a back-and-forth process. And the longer I work with a gallery or a person, the more I get to know what works there. Then I can tailor my offerings to them for what works. Sharon: Where do you find your images and the pictures that you put in your jewelry? Jennifer: When I first started, I was using magazines because they were readily available, fairly inexpensive, and that's how I started this whole process of layered acrylic. But the paper in those is not very good quality and the pictures fade. It's also a challenge to find enough usable content. So, then I started purchasing art books. I would become interested in a specific artist and start collecting books about their work, and those books always had a lot of really amazing images. They're printed on really nice paper with good quality inks, and they're much more successful layering than magazines. Now I exclusively use books. I've become somewhat of a rare and vintage book collector. It's a really fun part of my job, hunting down these different books, figuring out artists that inspire me to start collecting things about their work and then finding really cool images. If there's a particular book that has a lot of really great images that I like, I will start looking for other copies of it. There are certain books about Roy Lichtenstein's work. There's one about posters that has a catalog in the back with all these smaller thumbnail images, and they're so great for making earrings, things like that. I must've bought that book like 10 times. So, that's where I get my images. It's all purchased materials like books that I then rip up and cut up and put in between the acrylic. Sharon: Well, you answered the question. I was going to ask you if you cut the books up or what you do. You also mentioned that magazines got you going with layered acrylic. Can you tell us about that? Jennifer: When I was younger, I subscribed to all kinds of fashion magazines and fun things, and I would keep them after reading them. I had shelves and shelves of magazines. When I first started working with acrylic, I had this idea that acrylic has pretty cool visual properties, optical properties, and when you put images underneath it, it looks so interesting. That's when I started going through my fashion magazines, lots of issues of Vogue. I would see cool prints on dresses and things like that, and I would rip those pages out and try to fit the prints and things that were in there within my jewelry designs. That's how I got started with the whole thing. It was just cheap materials I already had. Sharon: What are your sales policies? Do you accept returns? If I'm a client and you give me something and I say, "No, that's not what I want," do you accept returns? What do you do? Jennifer: Yeah, I do accept returns. I think it depends. If it's a piece that already existed and they buy it and it just didn't work out, or it doesn't fit quite right or it wasn't what they were expecting, absolutely. It becomes a little more of a gray area when it's a custom piece, when someone wants specific imagery and this and that. That tends to be a little more delicate. That being said, I want people to keep my jewelry because they love it, not because they're trapped. So, even a custom order, if it doesn't come out quite as they were expecting, I try to work with people to either make it right or try something new. Some of the events that I do, it's a museum show where they're handling the sales and they're getting a commission, I'm getting a commission from the sale. Even though I'm selling to the customer directly, because it goes through the museum, usually it's an all-sales-are-final type situation, just because of the nature of the commissions and if they've already paid me and then the person changes their mind. It depends on the venue through which I'm selling the work. I would say most times, yes, returns are acceptable within a certain time frame, but there are certain instances where they are final sale. But even in that situation—I had a client come a couple of years later to a show, and she had this ring. I decided, "You know what? It's a really cool ring. Let's swap it out." She wanted a pendant. I like to be a little flexible. Like I said, I want people to have my jewelry because they love it, not because they're forced to keep it. Sharon: I'm curious; in your studio, do you have pets that keep you company? Jennifer: I do. I've got a dog and a cat. My cat, Shackleton, likes to work with me. I have two workspaces in my home. Downstairs is the shop, the studio, and then upstairs I have an office where I do the bonding and the image gathering and looking through layouts. The cat, Shackleton, likes to hang out upstairs in the office and sit on all my papers and be in the way, but be very cute. Then my dog, her name's Sophia. She tends to stay out of the studio because it's loud and dusty. She'll come in the office and hang out, too, sometimes. But I don't know. She kind of does her own thing. She lets me work. Sharon: Well, it sounds like nice company. Do you make more than one piece at a time? All the pieces and extras, let's say, do you put them in a closet and then pull them out if somebody wants them? What do you do? Jennifer: I definitely always have some inventory on hand. I think as far as when I'm making pieces, as I was saying earlier, I tend to make when I have an event or I'm preparing for something coming up. Then I'll usually go above and beyond and make extra just to have. Also, because my pieces are one of a kind and the imagery is different on each earring, each ring, each bracelet, I will make more than I know I'm going to need or sell at a specific time, mostly to have options for my clients, because all the pieces are different and have different images. You never know what someone's going to be drawn to. It's especially difficult with things that have a size, like a ring or a bracelet. Then I make tons of them because you have to have lots of options. With those kinds of things, I'll take a lot more custom orders because someone will see something in person that they love, but it's not their size. I do my best to recreate things for people. I don't generally remake things with the exact same images because usually it's impossible, but I will do my best to get something with a similar aesthetic or feeling for people. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode: How Gabriela produces jewelry in Mexico, manages her business from Montreal, and sells her jewelry worldwide. Gabriela's favorite stone to work with, and how she chooses and sources gems for her colorful jewelry. How moving from Mexico to Canada (and experiencing seasons for the first time) influenced Gabriela's work. What it means for jewelry to be slow made. Why COVID prompted Gabriela to transition from packaging design to jewelry design, and how she overcame her hesitation to call herself a jewelry maker. About Gabriela Sierra Gaby, designer and creator of Gabriela Sierra jewelry, is anything but a minimalist. Unafraid of color, she plays with bold shapes, textures and asymmetry. Her meticulously crafted pieces are meant to be conversation starters. With a background in Industrial Design followed by a variety of courses at Alchimia Contemporary Jewellery School, Gabriela Sierra merges design and fashion to create unique sculptural jewelry. The brand seeks to reflect the spirit of the slowmade process (quality over quantity). Founded in 2021, Gabriela Sierra is committed to good design by focusing on quality materials and the revaluation of craftsmanship. Her work has been shown at different worldwide exhibitions: "Todo es Diseño" Queretaro, Mexico 2021 "The Fab" Milano Jewelry Week 2022 "Cluster Contemporary Jewelry", London 2022 "The Earring Show", Vancouver, Canada 2023 "Earrings Galore 2023 - 2024", United States Additional Resources: Website Instagram Facebook Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: Expertly combining bold colors and shapes in her jewelry, it's clear that Gabriela Sierra has an eye for design. Beginning her career in furniture and packaging design, Gabriela made her lifelong dream of becoming a jewelry maker come true in 2021, when she opened Gabriela Sierra Jewelry. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how her upbringing in Mexico and her current home in Montreal influence her work; why her business follows "slow made" principles; and how she became more confident about calling herself a jewelry designer. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week. Today, I'm talking with Gabriela Sierra of Gabriela Sierra Jewelry. Her Mexican heritage shines through because of the bold colors in her jewelry. You will immediately see that when you look at her jewelry. I'm talking to her today, and she's in Canada, where she travels. She specializes in earrings. She uses recycled silver, and the stones she uses come from small, independent mines or mines that are located in Mexico. She believes in slow made. Her jewelry is meticulously crafted, and she does not have any inventory on hand. Almost everything is made to order at somebody's request. Today, Gabriela will tell us about her business and how it works. Gabriela, welcome to the program. Gabriela: I'm so excited to be here, Sharon. Thank you so much for inviting me. Sharon: Can you tell us how you decided on jewelry as a profession? Gabriela: Yes, sure. Well, I have always been drawn to jewelry since I was a kid. I was influenced by my mom and my grandmother. I remember her presence was always announced by the clicking of her bangles and her bold earrings. I studied industrial design, and during university I took a jewelry class. That experience started everything, just initiated my passion. Basically, it started from that. I knew at that particular moment that I needed to find further training, so after I finished university, I took a four-month course at Alchimia Contemporary Jewelry School. I had an amazing time there, and also the teachers were absolutely wonderful. However, it took me some time to find the courage to start my own brand, which I did eventually, after eight years. Now I'm here. Sharon: So, you studied industrial design before? Gabriela: Yeah. Sharon: Your passion for jewelry must have been underlying, and the industrial design really brought it out. So, after eight years, you decided to start your own brand. During most of that time, were you making different kinds of jewelry? Gabriela: No, actually, when I came back to Mexico after taking the course at Alchimia, I was so afraid of failure. That's why I didn't start my own brand at that particular time. In my mind, it was better to find a normal job. So, during those eight years, I worked as a designer for furniture. I also specialized as a packaging engineer or packaging specialist. Basically, I wasn't working in jewelry those eight years. Sharon: But you were working in design, right? Gabriela: Yeah. Sharon: Did your background help you in all of this? Does industrial design help? Gabriela: Yes, of course. I think yeah, absolutely. Since the first job that I had, designing furniture, I actually like all the stripped elements. I take a lot of influence and ideas from what I see outside. You can actually see a few of my designs being an idea of a light bulb, for example. I think it helped a lot. Also talking about packaging, especially the job that I had, it helped me a lot to understand a little bit of marketing and, of course, packaging. It gave me a big picture to understand a little bit more, not just the design part, but everything else, all the different areas involving the launch of a product. Sharon: I'm sure you do a whole range of jewelry, but right now you seem to focus more on earrings. Is that true? And, if so, why? Gabriela: Right now, yes, my main focus is on earrings. A month ago I started creating rings, a series of rings. But yes, I love earrings and my main focus is earrings. Why? The earrings are easier—not to create, but rings need to be sized. For me and in my experience, it's easier to make earrings for everyone. Rings need to be sized, so it's not for everyone. Sharon: Do you think you'll stick with earrings? Do you think you'll branch out from earrings to other things or stick with earrings? Gabriela: No, I think I will start creating other things later on. Right now, I will create the series of rings. After that, I will probably start with some necklaces. But for sure, I will start doing things differently. I'm from Mexico, but right now, I've been living in Montreal since last August. I came from another country and I'm learning about the culture here. Also, because I'm an atelier, I'm opening a new studio here in Montreal. I'm getting to know new artists and learning about them and their techniques. I think that travel helps a lot to create new things, just absorbing everything. So, I'm sure I'm going to create different things in the future, not just the earrings. Sharon: Do you have ideas that you think about when you travel or see when you're in Montreal? Does it give you ideas for different kinds of jewelry? Gabriela: Yes, actually, my rings. I have made just three of them. I want to make 10. The concept behind the rings is winter. This is the first winter that I spent here in Montreal. What's beautiful is that it was the first time I saw snow. For me, it was beautiful. It was a big change. And it wasn't just beautiful, it was also very hard. I wanted to encapsulate this snow in these rings. They are quartz. They're carbon quartz, but the inside is similar to snow. What I wanted to create there was the idea of encapsulating snow, encapsulating that particular moment that I saw the snow on the street. They are big, they are bold. Yeah, they're big. Sharon: Do you like the snow? Can you find it in Mexico, like in the mountains or somewhere? Gabriela: Yes, you can find snow in Mexico, probably in the mountains or in the north of Mexico, like very close to the United States. But it's not like here. The winter in Montreal is very tough. I think once we were -16 Celsius, so it's very hard. Sharon: Why do you manufacture in Mexico? I assume it's less expensive to manufacture there. Gabriela: Well, my studio remains in Querétaro. My partner, Samantha, is in charge of making the pieces that can be replicated there. I'm the one in charge of overseas, making sure everything runs smoothly in Querétaro. Here, I work and make the one-of-a-kind pieces. Basically, most of the pieces are shipped from Querétaro. The silver is from Mexico. Most of the stones are from Mexico also. The pieces that I make here, most of the stones are from here or the United States. These particular pieces are shipped from here because I made them here. Sharon: How do you decide which stones in which colors? You seem to flip, using the same color but a different combination, and some are totally different. Gabriela: I think at the beginning when I didn't have a clear concept, I let the stones guide me through the combinations of the pieces. But after that, now that I have a clearer concept, I design first and then I pick the gemstones. Mexico is a country with a lot of gemstones, so I have a wide variety to choose from. I didn't have any problem finding beautiful gemstones there. But yeah, at the beginning, the stones basically guided me. I designed pieces based on the stone and the shape of the stone, then I created the pieces. Now, I've had more time designing and creating jewelry, so I first create the design and then decide which stone will be better with the design and the concept. Sharon: When you say the stones guided you, do the stones ever talk to you and tell you what they should be or what they should be combined with? Gabriela: Yes, absolutely. It's funny, but yes. It is something that I used to say. "The earnings are like this this because they told me they needed to be combined with this stone in this particular shape in this particular order." Yeah, the stones talk to me a lot. It was more at the beginning, but now they just say, "Okay, I like your design, so yes, we can go together." Sharon: Do they ever say, "No, that's not right," or "I don't like this"? Gabriela: Yes, they do. For example, I first design a piece. Then I send the drawing to my supplier or different suppliers. I receive a sample, and then I see it with the silver, and I try them and finish that prototype. I need to see if they are good together, and sometimes it's just not right. It feels not right. Maybe those stones don't want to be next to the silver or this particular stone. I don't know. But yeah, totally. Sharon: So you use different suppliers for stones? Gabriela: Yes. In Mexico, as I previously said, we have a lot of options, and I have great connections with local suppliers here. The first one, the main one was Don Guille he was the first lapidary that I worked with. Sharon: I'm sorry; is that a company name or a person's name? Gabriela: I'm sorry. I called him by his nickname. His name is Guillermo. Sharon: Okay. That's where you got your first stones from? Gabriela: Yeah. He passed away, and now his son and grandsons continue his craft. I also have other suppliers in San Miguel. I also have one from India, Naseem. I also get some gemstones from India. Those three are my main suppliers. Now I'm here in Montreal and I am finding new ones because I prefer to work with the stones that are close to me in Canada. I also have a lot of gemstones in the United States. Sharon: Do you have a favorite stone? Gabriela: Yes, I have one. I don't know if you know this gemstone. The name of this gemstone is cotton candy agate. This particular gemstone is from Mexico. I love the color of this gemstone because it reminds me of a cherry blossom. It's a very soft pastel pink. That is my favorite gemstone, but I love all types of jaspers. I love gemstones with a lot of personality and different patterns and different colors. Actually, the first one that I mentioned, the cotton candy agate, most of my first designs and pieces were with this gemstone. I created a collection with this one. Sharon: You use a lot of silver. Have you ever used a different metal? Gabriela: No. All my pieces are made with silver until last week, because I finished a ring and I incorporated copper. But that's the only piece that I incorporated copper. I'm just experimenting to see how it looks, how I work with this new material, because I hadn't worked with copper before. Mainly all the pieces that you see on my webpage are with silver, 10.50 silver. Sharon: Going back to the cotton candy stone, the pale pink stone, tell us about working with something like that. Is it easier to work with? Gabriela: That particular gemstone is easy to work with. The only difficult thing is that it's not easy to find. It's from Mexico, but it's not easy to find that particular gemstone. That's why I have a few gemstones and that particular agate, but I'm saving them for the future because I haven't found more of this gemstone. Sharon: Do you get other stones or other pink stones? Is Mexico the only place that you can find them? Can you find them in the United States or in Canada also? Gabriela: Yes, you can find it in the United States, but they are from Mexico. There are suppliers that bought this particular item from Mexico. But yes, you can find it in the United States on Etsy or Facebook, Instagram, different suppliers. But this particular gemstone is from Mexico and that's it. You're not going to find it anywhere else. Sharon: Wow. So, they sell it to people in the States here. You're in Canada right now. Do you have any idea where you'll settle with your jewelry? Will you continue to work in Canada or move again? Gabriela: Right now, I'm in Canada because my husband is studying a master's here. Our idea or the main objective is to stay here in Canada. We love this city, Montreal. We have been here every year since four years ago. We love the culture, we love the weather, we love all the activities that are here. The main thing that we love here is that we can see the difference between seasons. In Mexico, it's not that easy to see the difference between seasons. Mexico has very good weather. I'm not saying that. It's just that you can't differentiate between seasons, because mainly the entire year is the same temperature. It doesn't change a lot. But yeah, we want to stay here. We'll see. I hope we can stay here. Sharon: As the seasons change the way you mentioned it, do they influence the stones? Do you make different kinds of jewelry in winter than in summer? Gabriela: Yes, for sure. Right now, I haven't created new collections here because I just recently found a studio to work. I found it last October. I started to create collections a year ago when I was in Mexico, and I created three because of the change of seasons. Depending on the seasons, I try to look for particular colors of the gemstones. Maybe because it's summer, I'm looking for more vibrant colors. In autumn it's more earth colors. Also, when it's winter in Mexico, I try to make smaller earrings instead of bigger because during winter you are wearing scarves. In my mind it's easier to wear smaller ones than big ones during winter. Sharon: How do you introduce yourself? Do you introduce yourself as a jewelry designer? How do you describe yourself? Gabriela: I always introduce myself as a jewelry maker, even though I also think I'm a jewelry designer. I think they go hand in hand. I think recently, in the last year and a half, I felt comfortable introducing myself as a jewelry designer. Sharon: Jewelry designer, okay. What do you consider a collection? Is it the colors? Is it a number of pieces? What is a collection made of? Gabriela: The collection that I created last year was my first one. So, for me, collection was a seasonal collection. I try to focus on the seasonal relevance at that particular time. I was inspired by the things during that particular season. For example, the one I created during summer was the candy collection. I created a collection of earrings resembling candies because they had vibrant colors, big statement earrings. Sharon: When do you make those? It must be hard in winter to be thinking about summer jewelry, or in summer to be thinking about winter jewelry. That's when you're making the collection, right? Not in the season, but before the season. Gabriela: Yeah, a little bit before. Just a little bit. I will admit that I'm not super organized. Sometimes I start making the rings or the collections just a couple of weeks before, so I'm seeing them in the middle of the season. Sharon: So, it's right before. What are you designing now? What colors are you thinking about now as spring is going into summer? I don't know how it is in Montreal, but here it's really spring. If it started snowing, would you think of different colors? If you're already working on the spring collection and suddenly it starts snowing, for instance. Gabriela: I'm a little bit behind, actually. I haven't finished the series of rings that I mentioned before, and for those rings the concept is winter. Right now I'm working with those. But at the same time in Mexico, Samantha is working on a collection for the web page with pieces that can be replicated. She's working with bold colors because spring is coming. We're working on new designs. Actually, this week, she is making some prototypes that I just made. I need to see them and approve them in order to continue with the real production for these pieces. But they're going to be with bold colors. We are both working with glass and some jaspers, and also with carbon quartz. Sharon: This is for production, but what were you describing by saying that you don't have a lot of inventory? That it's one of a kind? Gabriela: Well, we don't have a lot of inventory. The pieces that you see on our website are the pieces that we have in stock, and that's it. But those pieces that are not part of the one of a kind section, we can replicate them. The ones you are seeing on our web page are the ones we have available at the moment. If a client buys this piece right now, I need to make a new one in order to sell this new piece. Sharon: Do you ever reject a prototype and say, "I decided I don't want green. I want red in it"? You reject the prototype, you're saying yes. Gabriela: Yeah. If I don't like it, yes, of course. I just reject it and try again. I iterate a lot until I find the right combination, the right size, the right color, everything. Sharon: What do you mean by slow made? I've heard the term, but how do you define it? Gabriela: For me, slow made is quality over quantity. It's attention to detail. Pieces are made to order, as I mentioned before. We don't carry excessive inventory. We take our time to create each piece and to see that every piece is made at the right quality. Everything needs to be on point. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode: How Terhi's work changed as she moved from Finland to Amsterdam to France How the weather influenced Terhi's recent exhibition at Ornamentum Gallery How jewelry can help us explore the relationship between man and nature Why Terhi creates her work on a mannequin, and how she lets materials tell her what they want to be Why love is the most important thing an artist can put in their work About Terhi Tolvanen Currently based in the French countryside, Terhi Tolvanen was born in Helsinki, Finland (1968). Following studies at the Lahti Design Institute, Finland, and the Gerrit Rietveld Academy, NL, Tolvanen earned a Master's Degree in Jewelry at the Sandberg Institute, Amsterdam, NL. Tolvanen's works can be found in numerous distinguished private and public collections worldwide, including the Swiss National Museum, the Victoria & Albert Museum (London, UK) the Dallas Museum of Art (TX- USA) among others. Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com: Additional Resources Website Instagram Transcript: Terhi Tolvanen's jewelry isn't made of gold or diamonds, but in its own way, it's just as precious. The Finnish jeweler uses natural materials like wood, raw minerals and shells to create jewelry that not only looks beautiful, but challenges viewers to reflect on the world around them. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how her daily walks shape her work; how living in Amsterdam and rural France have changed her jewelry over the years; and her advice for emerging artists. Read the episode transcript here. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week. We're so glad you're here today. I'd never heard of our guest, Terhi Tolvanen, before. I'll let her pronounce the name in Finnish. I don't know how I missed her jewelry because I like large, statement-type pieces, and that's what many of Terhi's pieces are. I was really taken with them. She uses a lot of materials found in nature, integrated with stones that we might see in other jewelry. Her work can be found in many prestigious museums around the world. She herself has studied in several countries, growing and perfecting her work. Today, we will learn a lot about Terhi and the inspiration and ideas you will find all around her. Welcome to the podcast, Terhi. Terhi: Thank you so much, Sharon, for inviting me. It's great to be talking with you. Sharon: I'm so glad that we have the chance to talk. Can you tell us why you moved from Finland to Amsterdam to France? Can you tell us how the materials varied in each area? Terhi: I moved away from Finland. Originally, I was supposed to be going away for only one year, but after technical school, I was missing quite a lot to learn more about the reasons why to make things. At the time in Finland, there was no possibility to continue. That's why I started looking elsewhere. I ended up then studying in Rietveld Academy in Amsterdam, in the Netherlands, and I totally fell in love with the school. The one year I was supposed to stay became six years. After four years, I also did a master course over there, and after school I stayed because it was great. I fell in love with jewelry. There were galleries, there were events, there were colleagues, there were things happening. During the school years, I made a lot of friends, and I found a place to stay and all that. Now for about 10 years, I've been in France. I moved to France because of love. I fell in love. Sharon: Love, okay. And did you find materials different in each area? Terhi: The materials, yeah, of course. Moving to France has changed the accessibility to my materials totally, because I moved to the countryside from the city. This meant that I was able to use more and more branches that I could collect and find a little bit everywhere. And I've continued what I started doing already in the Netherlands for finding all my minerals and stones. I would go to mineral fairs. Now that I'm in France, I go to Paris. Sharon: Are there are a lot of materials in Paris? Do you find things to work with? Terhi: There is a quite good mineral fair once a year, in the beginning of December. I almost always have to wait one year if I want to have something or find the same thing again or find new material. When I do that, I have to count that I have enough for working for one year. I buy a lot and I don't always use everything. Sometimes it can even take up to five years before I really know what I want to do with certain minerals, but this is always very exciting for me. I'm a very big fan of minerals and stones in any shape and color and format. I have used a lot of rough minerals that I would cut just a little bit so that the dimensions would fit on a piece. For about three or four years, I've also been buying some cut stones. When I still lived in Amsterdam, I used to work with a stone cutter who would cut stones especially for me, and that was a very good cooperation. Since then, he has stopped working a little bit in that way. But he would save me things the normal goldsmiths wouldn't want to buy. He learned very quickly that was interesting for me. Mainly it was things that were a little bit different, a little bit less perfect than a traditional goldsmith would want to use. Sharon: How long have you been a maker? Did you choose it later or did you choose it when you were young? Terhi: I have been a maker since my graduation from the Sandberg Instituut. The master course in Amsterdam is called Sandberg Instituut. I graduated from there in 1999, and I had my first solo show in 2000. Of course, it took a little time to get going. But now it's 24 years ago. It's long. Sharon: And you knew when you graduated that you wanted to be a maker or a jeweler. That's what you wanted to do professionally. Terhi: Yes. I was asking this question a lot while studying. When I started studying in Amsterdam, I was absolutely convinced that I don't want to be an artist and I don't want to make jewelry. But I thought, "Never mind. I will be able to learn a lot of important things anyway at school." This meant that during a lot of school years, I was trying all kinds of different things. I was drawing a lot, I was making objects, I was working a lot with textiles, sort of half- clothes, half-sculpture pieces. And then at one moment towards the end of the master course, when it really became a reality that soon I will have to get out of the school and go into the real world, I really decided, "Okay, I will make jewelry," because my conclusion, after all these school years, was that that's the thing I can do the best. So, I really chose it. Also, because of the situation at the time in the Netherlands, it was possible to ask for working grants for jewelry arts. I had some very good school friends that were very much encouraging me to take the jewelry direction. So, yes, it was a very conscious decision at the time, and I have not regretted it. Sharon: It was long periods when you were in a country. You said you were in Amsterdam for six years. Did you teach? I don't know, maybe I have that wrong. Terhi: No, not there. I was there for school for six years altogether. Also, I stayed for the reason that it was cheaper to work at school than rent a studio. When I graduated from the Instituut, I stayed in Amsterdam because it was, work wise, very exciting to stay there. I had a job on the site. Then later I got a working grant. I had a nice studio, so I stayed in Amsterdam until 2013 when I moved to France. Sharon: I have to ask if you knew the languages before you came to each country. Well, English in Amsterdam works. What languages do you speak? Terhi: I'm multilingual. in Amsterdam I decided that I would like to learn Dutch because I thought it is very important for the quality of life. I managed to learn Dutch, so I speak Dutch quite fluently. At school it was a lot in English, of course. I speak Finnish, Dutch, English, and now in France, people don't speak so much English, so I really had to learn French. I had already studied French during all my school time in Finland, so I had a base for that, but I couldn't speak it so well. Now, of course, with all the years, I have learned to speak French. I'm teaching now in France at ENSAD Limoges, the École Nationale Supérieure d'Art et de Design, which is one of the national art schools. I'm teaching in French. Sharon: As you learned each language, did your works change? Did it make it easier to work or harder? Did you see a change in your work? Terhi: Well, living abroad, it's often lost in translation, of course. To know a language very well, you need to also understand the mentality and the culture of each country. I don't know if it's so much the language that's influencing the work. It's more the physical fact being in a certain place with certain surroundings. Of course, for me nature is very important. It's a richness, the language is. Definitely, yes. Sharon: Your most recent exhibition, I don't know if you had another one since then, but last summer you were at Ornamentum Gallery. Your work was shown at Ornamentum Gallery, which is in Massachusetts, I think. Terhi: It's in Hudson, New York. Sharon: Okay. I couldn't remember. Hudson, New York. The exhibit was called Moderate to Southwest Winds. What does that mean in jewelry? What did you think it meant? Terhi: I chose the title. It's a weather forecast. It's taken out of a weather forecast. I chose that because while working for that show, I realized that what is really making the rhythm of my work and my thinking is the weather. I go out every morning for a walk, and this is a very important moment for me depending on the face in the work. Either I try to just empty my mind and observe things in nature. I look at colors and light and shapes and textures. Or, when I'm a little bit further in the work, then the moment of walking is very nice for finding solutions, so I'm working in my head. And, of course, what is then very important is the weather. If it's nice weather, if the sun is shining, if it's raining, if it's the spring or the winter. In wintertime, there is not so much light, so I have to wait for the light to be able to go out. This is totally deciding the rhythm of my day. As I also wrote at the time for the text of the exhibition, all my life I've been following the weather forecast. I check every morning what kind of weather it's going to be. I plan my day. If it's raining in the morning, I will go and do my walk in the afternoon and so on. This is something that I learned from my grandfather in Finland who had a little summer cottage on a little island. It's important to know what kind of weather it is, if it was safe to take the boat to the mainland or not. This is a kind of habit. It's sort of a daily ritual for me. I was also thinking that as the weather is the factor that is so important, I can also say that what was a little bit different for this exhibition was that the theme was a little bit more general. I let myself have the freedom of not deciding so tightly the theme that I'm working on. During COVID, I had put aside all kinds of different plans, all kinds of pieces that I wanted to make but I was not able to make at the time. I also had some materials that they had put on the site especially for the show at Ornamentum. I decided to make the show in that way, that I will make all these pieces that were waiting to be made. I found that, like the weather, the circumstances of the situation led to that conclusion somewhat and what I could say. Sharon: How did COVID affect you and your work? Terhi: I found it a very, very difficult time. I didn't stop working totally, but I was not able to really make my big pieces. It was quite military like, I would say. How to explain? The French system was very strict. To go out, you had to sign a paper and you had to tell what you were going to do, and you had one hour to do that. If you would not be back at home on time, then you would get fined. There was a very efficient fear campaign on television and so on. It felt very uncertain, and I'm sure this was the case for everybody. It took away a lot of the safe feeling which is necessary to be able to really dive into a big work. In a way, the time was cut in small moments when it was possible to create. Ever since I started working, I think the COVID year was really the first year that I didn't have so much production. Sharon: Were you allowed to go out to your studio? Is your studio in your home or is it separate? Terhi: At the time, I had a studio in a little town close to home. When they announced that the lockdown is going to come, I moved the most important things from my studio to my home so then I didn't have to go. This would have been possible. I could have signed the paper and said, "I'm going to my work," but I felt better working at home. Also, being in the countryside, it was more free to go out. It was an isolated house at the time. I have moved since, but it was much easier to be there than in a city situation. I'm glad I did it. I moved my goldsmithing bench and my main tools and my main materials. Sharon: You moved them home? Terhi: Yeah, I had a little room at home to be able to work. Sharon: What did you want them to learn from the exhibition? Let's say your show at Ornamentum was the first time they were seeing your work or contemporary jewelry. What did you want them to learn by looking at it? Terhi: I'm very concerned about wearability in my work. This gives the scale. For somebody who is not so acquainted with contemporary jewelry, a lot of times people find it very big. I like to say that my work is sculpture. Then one could say that it's wearable sculpture. I'm also, first of all, talking about nature since the beginning. I'm working on the same theme in a way for about 20 years. I never changed because there are always new things. What I want to really put in the front—this is a little bit of a French saying, sorry—is that nature is very precious, and there are a lot of very beautiful things to see. How to put it very simply? I just want to show that it's very special. There are a lot of little things you can see when one walks in the forest. It's worthwhile to really look. This sounds a little bit like no explanation because there are so many factors. But I'm talking about a dialog between man and nature. I'm talking about respect towards nature. I'm talking about this kind of eagerness to control nature, and the nature is fighting back so this dialog is never ending. Of course, today this is a topic that is more actual than ever. There are so many wonderful things. It's amazing, I think. I mean, just the mineral world. It's amazing what nature can make. Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode: How to use Antique Jewelry University to identify maker's marks and find out when your jewelry was made. Why access to more (and better) information has made interest in antique jewelry explode. What characteristics Suzanne looks for when evaluating antique jewelry. Why buyers should beware of lab-grown diamonds in vintage jewelry. Why modern diamonds and manufacturing techniques can't compare to the materials and skills used by jewelers in the past. About Suzanne Martinez Suzanne Martinez is the co-owner of Lang Antiques, a San Francisco-based shop that offers the largest collection of fine vintage engagement rings and antique jewels to be found under one roof. She is a highly credentialed senior gemologist, jewelry appraiser, jewelry historian and the curator for Lang's collection. She actively buys from sellers all over the world. Suzanne is also the founder of Lang's Antique Jewelry University. Suzanne started collecting rocks and minerals as a child, and by the time she was 13 knew that the jewelry world was her passion. For fun she makes enameled jewelry and studies natural history and Latin American cultural anthropology. Images courtesy of Lang Antique & Estate Jewelry available on TheJewelryJourney.com Additional resources: Website Suzanne's LinkedIn Instagram Facebook Antique Jewelry University Lang Antique and Estate Jewelry is the prime destination for vintage jewelry lovers, but you don't have to be in San Francisco to take advantage of the store's services. Lang ships jewelry globally and offers Antique Jewelry University, a completely free online guide to maker's marks and jewelry history. Jewelry historian and Lang co-owner Suzanne Martinez joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how Lang curates its huge collection of antique engagement rings; the history of Antique Jewelry University; and what she looks for when evaluating an antique piece. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week. Today, we're talking with Suzanne Martinez of Lang Antiques in San Francisco. I should say that's where the brick and mortar is, but they sell all over the world. Lang Antiques is the country's, if not the world's, largest purveyor of vintage engagement rings. They have an unparalleled collection. Suzanne herself is a jewelry historian, among other things. Lang Antiques has developed an online Antique Jewelry University. Researchers from all over the world use this as a resource to research the history of a piece of jewelry. If you're interested in jewelry, then this makes a very good read. I was looking at it last night again, and I didn't have any piece of jewelry in mind, but it was very interesting to read. I've heard Suzanne give a talk at ASJRA, another major jewelry organization, and I've heard Suzanne give talks identifying a piece of jewelry, and she goes into tremendous detail. There's no way that you could not look at a piece of jewelry and know what you should be looking for. She'll tell us more about Antique Jewelry University. She'll also tell us how over the years, the store has become world renowned. They have done this by developing an unparalleled collection of jewelry, a reputation for professional expertise, and the longevity of this jewelry store. Suzanne, welcome to the program. Suzanne: I'm happy to be here. Good morning. Sharon: Can you tell us where the Lang in Lang Antiques and Estate Jewelry comes from? Suzanne: We bought the store from Jarmilla Lang in 1991. She was the original owner of the store and a jewelry historian herself way before her time. She had worked in Europe in museums, so she had this breadth of knowledge of decorative arts and jewelry that she brought to San Francisco with her when she opened this store. Sharon: Wow. There aren't any certificates as a jewelry historian. It's just knowledge, right? Knowledge and other people saying, "Well, you're a jewelry historian." I presume you're a gemologist also. You look at so many rings. That's very interesting. What do you say to those who would never buy a piece of jewelry online because they have to feel it and see it and all of that? Suzanne: Like you said, I am a gemologist and I have been for 45 years. Part of the gemological training is learning how to be forensic with what you're looking at. Whether it's a gemstone or a piece of jewelry, if you are buying from someone who is knowledgeable enough to understand what they're looking at and share that information with you, that gives a huge degree of trust. I think that's one thing that stands out for Lang. We have a really good understanding of whether it's a real piece of antique jewelry. How is it made? Why is this design important? Who else made this design popular over time and why? We like to give tidbits of history with every piece we sell. I do call myself a jewelry historian, but by no means do I know everything. I have a library. I haven't read every single book in my library. However, if a piece comes in and I look at it, I know which book to look for to find a reference about it. And there are many jewelry historians that I look up to. It's a community. Sharon: If I see a piece of jewelry on your website and I want to know more about it, or I want to know if I can trust this outfit If I don't know it, do I call you or send you the piece? Can you explain the process? Suzanne: If you want to know more about your own piece of jewelry, that's why we have Antique Jewelry University. It's a place where you can do your own research. We have a huge database of hallmarks because one thing that we probably get the most inquiries about is, "Who made this piece of jewelry? Here's the mark I have." We refer them to this database we have because it's pretty impressive. Auction houses and appraisers and people all over use that database. Every piece of jewelry we have with a maker's mark, we do our best to research it. It's not always easy. It's not always possible. Then we photograph it, and we include it on our website. We try and add a little snippet about who the jeweler was, where they were located, and what years they did their manufacturing. You have to match when a piece was made because some there are false marks, too. If a piece of jewelry is marked 585, which is the percentage for 14-karat gold, it was not made in the 19th century. They didn't mark jewelry like that. There is that forensic bit, too. Hopefully we can help people down that path. We call it the jewelry journey. We do. It's finding out when their jewelry was made. If they want to find out more about a piece of jewelry we have on our website that they might be interested in buying, we invite inquiries. We talk to them over the phone or by email, whatever they're comfortable with, and try and satisfy all their questions about it and add information as well. Sharon: Did you develop the online Antique Jewelry University yourself? Suzanne: When we started our website, that was back in 1998. We were kind of early adapters. There were no e-commerce platforms at that time, so we developed our own e-commerce platform. By the early 2000s, we were actually selling online. When we launched our website, Antique Jewelry University was a 1000-word glossary. I had been collecting terms. Christie Romero was an incredible jewelry historian. She was here in Southern California, and she taught jewelry history. I don't remember which college it was down there, but she would put on symposiums and bring speakers in. Anyway, incredible woman. She started a glossary of terms and a timeline that, when she passed—unfortunately, she's no longer with us—she gifted to Antique Jewelry University. So, between her information and my glossary of terms, we started Antique Jewelry University and just built upon it. Sharon: Do you continue to build upon it if you see a new term or something you haven't included before? Suzanne: Absolutely. We are always researching. We have a woman who does a lot of our writing. Her name is Mary Borchert, and that is her job, just doing research. We have quite a library of reference books, so everything that we put on Antique Jewelry University is fully referenced. We notate that at the bottom of all our articles as well. We're not just copying it from somewhere else on the internet, which a lot of people do, and a lot of people copy Antique Jewelry University. That can be a compliment, but at the same time, we do all of our own work. Sharon: That's impressive, considering how in-depth it is. Just look at it online. Why do you think that the interest in antique jewelry has grown so much in the past few years? Suzanne: I think there's a lot of transparency. A lot of people are able to access information because of the advent of social media. Just think of all the people that are sharing their own personal information. We are on all the different social media channels as well, and I've seen them grow. If you have an interest in a particular type, like Art Nouveau jewelry, you can find Art Nouveau jewelers that have Instagram or Pinterest and look at beautiful jewelry and learn about it. In the past, when I started as a jeweler, if you didn't have a library, there was no place to go. You went to a museum, and that's where you found your information. Now I think it's a rich time for people to access information. I think we also visually see antique and vintage jewelry worn on the red carpet, at the Met Gala, and we see jewelry that is inspired by antique jewelry. You have famous houses. Everybody knows who Cartier is. You have the most beautiful antique Cartier jewelry, and then you have people that have copied it. That's a big tribute, but you don't always know if it's a Cartier or it isn't. That's why it's important who you buy it from. But at the same time, it's permeated everything, antique and vintage styles. Whether it's somebody creating something new with a nod to something vintage or it's truly vintage, I think it's just what people see today. It's massive. Sharon: Your selection of engagement rings is massive. Have you seen that grow in the past few years, the interest and the couples coming in and wanting to see your vintage only? Suzanne: Because that's what we specialize in—we specialize in antique diamonds, so our vintage and antique jewelry is why people come to buy from us. They understand that it's socially responsible, it's recycled. That's one of the reasons they buy it. They also want a little bit of history. They want something that no one else has, something very unique. They want something that has a beautiful design and is executed in a way that jewelry isn't executed today. You get a beautiful Edwardian jewel, no one can make a piece of jewelry like that in today's world. They just don't. The jewelry today is made on CAD. Very few jewelers are hand fabricators or can fabricate something that delicate. If you want the real deal, you're going to shop at a store like Lang. Sharon: What happens if you get a call from somebody outside of the U.S. or even on the other side of the U.S. that wants a piece? They want a vintage engagement ring, but they can't come to the store. What do you do? Suzanne: Actually, more of our customers are outside of our store and shop just online because we have jewelry that no one else has. Where are they going to find it if they don't find it from a store like Lang? We have a very large selection. It's not unusual for a customer to narrow their choice down to two or three. Sometimes we just send them all three and they can try them on in the comfort of their own home. They have a period of time which they can return them. We make it work. Sharon: I thought it was really interesting that you had that, the one, two, three. Maybe it's the person who writes about the antique jewelry. The one, two, three of what you look for to know more about a piece of jewelry. That was like first looking at the hallmarks. I looked at it last night but I don't remember what's next. Suzanne: For a private individual, when they're trying to identify their own jewelry, style is really important. But for an individual, if you have family history and you know that piece was your grandmother's, at least you have a date within which to start. If you're just out in the world and you identify a piece of jewelry that you love but you don't really know how old it is, that's a little more difficult. How do you know it doesn't match the type of manufacturing techniques that were done when, say, an Art Nouveau piece of jewelry was made, versus something that is made today in the Art Nouveau style? That is something that's a little harder. That's why you need to rely on an appraiser, someone to help you with that. But when I personally look at a piece of jewelry, how I select a piece of jewelry for our store, style is really important. Good design is always good design. Bad design is obvious, and it just doesn't make a great piece of jewelry. The techniques of manufacture have to be right. It has to be in excellent condition. There's a lot of things that I look at that go in the background, that not everybody sees when they look at a piece. They see a beautiful piece of jewelry when they're shopping, but the backstory is it has to be in excellent condition. It has to be correct. Lang is very careful about letting people know when, for example, cufflinks have been out of style for quite some time, and a lot of the cufflinks that were made circa 1900 to 1930 are small. They're very small. They're really too small for men to wear. Men don't wear them, and they're very delicate. What we do is convert them to earrings. We make the most beautiful earrings out of these cufflinks that otherwise would lose their livelihood, and we've been very successful with doing that. But we tell people these were converted from a pair of earrings, whether it's Art Nouveau or an Art Deco cuff link. Those are the kinds of things that if we make a change, we tell people about it. Sharon: If somebody wants to sell jewelry to you or to another place, let's say they take their family collection and show it to you, or they take it out of the safe deposit box and decide they want the jewelry to be out in the world, what do you say? Have you ever turned people away? Suzanne: Absolutely. What if something was made in the last 25 years and its value is gold? It's something that is mass produced and there's lots and lots of them made and it's not in style anymore. It deserves to be recycled into something more beautiful again. In all pieces, it's back to that design, quality, authenticity and condition. Those are the things that I look for. I wish I could say I could buy every single piece that comes through my door, but realistically we have a large collection. Let's say right now I have 30 hardstone cameos. If someone brought me a hardstone cameo today, I would have to make sure that it exceeded my current collection to add it to my collection, or it has to be something that I feel customers are buying right now. The market goes up and down. Retro is a little soft right now. I like it. It's beautiful. The designs are gorgeous, but I'm not adding to our retro collection because we have a pretty extensive retro collection right now. Those are the kinds of things where sometimes I will say no. But usually individual, one-of-a-kind pieces of jewelry, that's what we're looking for. Sharon: Can you recognize if something is one of a kind when it's presented to you? I know you think about things and what you have, but do you research the piece? Do you look at it under the microscope? Suzanne: Some pieces definitely need to be researched, but most pieces are jewelry where maybe more than one of them has been made. In our diamond ring collection, for example, during the 1920s and 1930s, a lot of those rings were die struck. They were made in a die and many of them were made, but very few survive. In all my years of buying and selling vintage engagement rings and antique engagement rings, maybe I've seen a handful that were the same as one I had already seen. That's because the piece may be struck on a die, but then its hand pierced, its hand finished. There may be a garland or small milgrain, or it may have small diamonds added to it and this one doesn't have diamonds added to it. Each one has a handprint of a person on it, the work master or the person that does the engraving or the setter. Each one has its own imprint, so they still tend to look one of a kind. But knowing the underlying structure of something is still one of the ways we determine when it was made. You know when you see a die struck ring, that's the period of time within which it was made. Sharon: Do people bring lab-grown diamonds in? I know they're not vintage, but do you ever see lab-grown diamonds? Suzanne: I think the secondary market for lab grown diamonds hasn't really hit yet because they've only been super popular in the marketplace for three years. That's about it. And their prices have already plummeted on the retail marketplace. It's not something we would ever buy because they're not old, but it is something that we have to be careful of, and I think people have to be careful of. I have heard of jewelers that are buying low quality synthetic diamonds. They're buying a round brilliant and they're recutting it to European standard because they have inclusions and might have some off color, then they're putting them in an old mounting. People that buy scrap end up with lots and lots of mountings, and sometimes they just resell them on the secondary market through dealers. So, here you have the possibility of someone setting a synthetic diamond recut as an antique diamond into an old mounting, so buyer beware. That's one of my dilemmas, too, that I have to be very careful about. I would never want to buy that. That's when the microscope comes in handy, and that's when we use outside laboratories like the Gemological Institute of America to check the stones before we buy them, just to make sure they are correct. In our laboratory, we don't have all the equipment necessary to confirm that it is 100% synthetic or not. We have separation techniques, but a larger laboratory is able to do a lot more than we can. Sharon: A lot of these lab-grown diamonds have inscriptions and numbers or something that identifies it. Do you look for anything like that? Suzanne: If the GIA has looked at that diamond, they always inscribe them. But a diamond cutter can polish that off in a matter of 10 minutes. If you do see it, great, but it's not something that we've even seen. We don't buy round brilliant-cut diamonds. We've never bought round brilliant-cut diamonds. That's not what we buy and sell. Because we specialize in the older ones, like I said, I'm very careful about what I buy and I'm on the lookout for these supposed recuts. We know they're out there for smaller diamonds because we see them in reproductions, the European cuts and single cuts. Primarily the European cuts are cut with what we call an open culet. Instead of coming to a point on the bottom, they have a facet there, and the facets in the contemporary cuts for small diamonds have a really big open facet. That's a generalization, but it's one of those things. If you see all the other characteristics that make you think it's not an old ring and you see those stones and they're perfectly calibrated, you can kind of say, "Yes, that's a reproduction, and this is why." Sharon: Do you or people who work at the store go out to trade shows or antique jewelry shows and look for merchandise to resell? Suzanne: That's one of the things I do. Most of the jewelry that we buy and sell comes right in our door. People send me a picture of it and we strike up a conversation, and they mail it to us or send it FedEx or however we decide they're going to ship it for our consideration so we can see it in person. I do not buy anything unless I see it in person. Another really good reason to go to trade shows is to do price research. I go to Tucson Gem and Mineral Show every year because the prices and availability of different gems change. It changes from year to year, and if you're buying a beautiful old sapphire, you want to make sure you're paying the right price for it, especially today as prices have gone up significantly, especially in emeralds, rubies and sapphires. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode: Why working with jewelry designers is part business, part therapy. Why the jewelry industry is picking up its pace to match the fashion industry, and why this trend might backfire. Why customer feedback on comfort and wearability is essential for jewelry brands. How Lionel defines success for his jewelry clients. What caused so many fashion houses to develop fine jewelry lines in the last few years, and what this trend means for the industry. About Lionel Geneste Lionel Geneste is a fashion and luxury industry veteran, having worked for John Hardy, Givenchy, Catherine Malandrino and Randolph Duke in various capacities, from global marketing to communications and merchandising. He is also the founder of the gift-giving service b.Sophisticated. Born in Tehran to French parents, Geneste grew up as a modern nomad: Cairo, Istanbul, Lagos, Beirut, Paris are just a few places he once called home. And so he acquired an eclectic eye, at an early age, for the refined and urbane—only further encouraged by his clotheshorse mother and her like-minded friends. Additional Resources Website Instagram Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: How does an independent jewelry brand get noticed? For some lucky jewelers, the secret is Lionel Geneste. Lionel is a jewelry strategist and advisor who has launched iconic brands, shown new collections at Paris couture week, and gotten small jewelry artists into top stores. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how the jewelry industry compares to the fashion industry; the trends, opportunities and challenges jewelers are facing today; and how he chooses his clients (and why he has to believe in their work). Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week. Today, I'm talking with Lionel Geneste. He's an independent strategist in the jewelry industry. He does this after 15 years in fashion, so he knows fashion and jewelry. He's multi-lingual, and he represents many people abroad in the U.S., which is very, very unusual. In fact, I met him through an independent jeweler, and I thought he had such an interesting background I wanted to talk to him more. Lionel, welcome to the program. Lionel: Sharon, good morning. Thank you for having me. Sharon: I'm really glad to have you. How did you come into this business? Lionel: Well, I was in the fashion industry, then a friend of mine was taking over John Hardy. We're talking about 2006 or 2007. They were launching a one-of-a-kind collection, and they brought me on board to launch that collection and to develop it and then basically to do all the PR for John Hardy in general. Sharon: I'm not familiar with John Hardy. Is it fashion? Go ahead. Lionel: John Hardy is this company that does mostly silver. They're based in Bali. All their ateliers are in Bali and they have a big office in New York. John Hardy himself wanted to do a collection for his wife, which would be only one of a kind. That's when we started that collection called Cinta, which means love in Balinese. People were noticing these rings, and the people from Neiman Marcus noticed them and asked if we could develop them into a full collection, which we did. I'd been more in fashion, in the couture world, and I thought I could do something. Basically, the ladies that were willing to wait for four months for a dress are also willing to have one-of-a-kind jewelry or even preorder them. Sharon: You know, when you tell me who it is, I remember who John Hardy is, but I haven't seen his jewelry for a while. It's around. So, those are your clients? Are they mostly women? Do you represent any men? Lionel: Yeah. These were the clients. The idea at the beginning, when I developed it, is I would do dinners in Paris during the couture shows, and we would present the jewelry. That was pretty much how it all started. If you look at it now, all the jewelry houses are doing presentations during the couture shows. A couple of weeks ago it was in Paris and everybody from Boucheron, Dior etc., presented their collection. It's on the same calendar. From then on, when I left John Hardy, I started a company with a business partner. The idea was that we were giving our clients not only the PR aspect and marketing, but also the business, because I was well versed in the business side as well. It was a kind of a one stop shop. Sharon: I'm not familiar with the couture shows. Does the jewelry have a separate presentation? Lionel: Yeah. The couture shows, it's like when the houses like Valentino, Dior, Chanel, it's all their shows that are only one of a kind. There are very strict rules that are enacted by the Chambre de Commerce in Paris. You have to have a number of atelier, you have to have a number of people working in the atelier, it's all handmade, etc. There was a parallel with the ladies buying those clothes that are much more expensive than ready to wear and the jewelry industry, and I think everybody made the same link between those. Now, these shows are every year in January and July. The houses like Boucheron, Chanel, Chaumet, all of them hold presentations and invite the press, but also invite clients at the same time. Sharon: So, they show their most expensive jewelry. Lionel: Yes. It's really the high jewelry collections that are shown there. Sharon: Is there somebody showing them, presenting them, or is it just come and look and see? Lionel: No, they are usually elaborate with more and more, actually. Everything is an experience. More and more they're doing elaborate dinners. For example, Boucheron at the Place Vendôme has dedicated the last floor to a big dining room, and there's also a suite. The best clients can come stay at Boucheron and stay in the building. The view on Place Vendôme is beautiful. So, now it's more a presentation with the designer himself or herself inviting their best customer, or hoping to get the best customer. Sharon: Do you invite these customers? Lionel: I used to do that a lot. I haven't done it in a year. Usually, I work with younger designers or independent and smaller designers, so I don't have the same budget. But usually what I do is I find a new, typical French bistro. I used to do it the night before the shows to make it something very informal, but still presenting the collection in a different format. Sharon: Is that how people found you? They come to these dinners? Lionel: When we talk about clients, there are two different kinds of clients. There are my clients who are the jewelers that I represent, and then I'm talking about clients who are the people who buy the jewelry. Basically, it's word of mouth. When I work with jewelers, some stores recommend me to other brands. Some clients know about someone who's launching a new brand and they refer me. That's really where I enter the competition. I make a proposal, and it's more about that and referrals. Sharon: Do you advise the high-end buyers of jewelry? Do you advise them? You say you have two kinds of clients. Lionel: Yeah, I have some clients that are collectors. Not everyone is always looking for newness or paying attention to that. So, yes, I do advise them on what I think is a young designer that's upcoming, and if they're serious about their collection, I think they should have a piece of that person in their collection. I launched Emmanuel Tarpin, for example, and at the time everybody wanted his earrings to be part of their collection. Sharon: Who did you say? Lionel: Emmanuel Tarpin. He's been having a lot of press lately. He's launched a collection of orchids. I don't work with them anymore, but I launched him at the beginning. Sharon: Do you have to like the people that you work with? Lionel: Absolutely. I do have to like the product. I couldn't sell something that I don't believe in. Sharon: Do you ever work with men? Do they come to you for advice? Lionel: They do. However, I find most men—no, I do, actually. I have some men that come, or they are strongly recommended by their wives. A lot of my clients are women who buy for themselves. Sharon: Okay, so they find out about you through word of mouth, or do you advertise? Lionel: But also, I do work with stores. Some of my jewelers are in stores such as Just One Eye in Los Angeles, Cayen in Carmel, Mayfair Rocks in East Hampton. I choose strategically the partnerships and in places where I know we're going to find the right client. Sharon: I bet your clients, they're abroad and you represent them in the states. Lionel: Yes. Some of them I represent worldwide. I represent them also in Europe, in London and Paris. At the moment for my clients, I work with Sylvie Corbelin. That's how we met, you and I. Sylvie is based in Paris. I work with a brand that's new-ish called Mike Joseph, and it was a big success at couture last year. He is based in Bangkok. Then I represent Vishal Anil Kothari, who is based in Mumbai. It's kind of a take on traditional Indian jewelry but with a much lighter frame. They use portrait-cut diamonds, emeralds. Sharon: Do people find out about you? It seems like everybody is not finding out about you through shows or their friends. Lionel: You know, friends, clients, stores, owners. They see how I work with them and recommend me to other people. I have younger friends in the industry that just started their business and ask me for advice. They recommend me or hire me. Sharon: You travel a lot because you have addresses in New York, L.A., Paris. Lionel: I was based in New York for 20 years. I moved to L.A. six years ago. I still go to New York quite often. Sharon: But you were born in Paris or in France? Lionel: I'm French. My parents traveled a lot, so I was born a bit by accident in Tehran, in Iran. But I'm French. I studied in France. Sharon: Do you feel stretched? When I try and get hold of you, I wonder where in the world you're going to be reading this or calling from. Lionel: No, I like traveling. I think it's interesting. I find it very interesting to meet the clients. You were asking me earlier about feedback and if I give the designer I work with advice. I don't give them advice. I think they all have a strong point of view and they are not influenced by trends. However, I do give them feedback from clients. I think it's always interesting to see. Do they find the jewelry comfortable? Are the earrings too heavy? It's always interesting to see. When you work for a designer, for a woman like Sylvie, Sylvie wears her own jewelry, so she knows if it's comfortable or not. That's always interesting. Mike Joseph tells me that he always has his sister try jewelry on and even live in it for a few days before he puts it in production. Sharon: Do they tell you if it's too heavy? Lionel: Sometimes they do. They do give feedback. Yesterday we were presenting some new sketches to a store, and some stones were kind of sticking out. The first question the store manager asked was, "Is it going to snag clothes?" The answer is they had to remake that and polish the edges so it would not catch on clothes. Sharon: You were presenting sketches of the jewelry? Lionel: Yes. I was showing jewelry to a store, showing the new collection. Kind of a preview of what we're going to do for couture. I wanted to get a sense. It's always interesting. You were asking me when I take on the client, do I have to like it? I do have to like it, but I also usually show it to one or two editors that I trust or a few store owners to see what their reaction is to it as well. It can't be only my personal things, so it's always interesting to hear what other people have said. Sharon: Do magazine fashion editors come to you to find jewelry? Lionel: Yes, they do. They'll ask me what I have, if I have anything new and interesting. I do like to work with more individuals. I always try to bring something interesting. You were asking how I choose the designers I work with. It's difficult today to find people who really bring something new, so I'm always looking for that. Someone who has already come up with a new invention or brings something to the world of jewelry. Sharon: Do you work with them to expand? They're independent and they grow. Do you help them when they launch a chain? Do they outgrow you, let's say? Lionel: No, and I actually, I do like that. I like to be at the beginning, helping them find everything from their voice, how to place themselves, where to place them within the market, price point. What exists already on the market? After I work with them for five or six years, and if they really grow, I like to push them out and hire a real agent. In general, the brands I work with, we try to keep it exclusive, to not have it in every store. It's very organic. We're not pushing. With strategy, I prefer to go within stores where you're going in what we call deep, like bringing 15 to 20 pieces to really show the depth of the work of the designer, rather than just five or six pieces just to have a presence, which to me doesn't really serve the purpose. Sharon: Do you advise the jewelry stores you're bringing jewelry to on how to display it or things like that? Lionel: Yeah. Some stores have a strong vision about how to do it, but yes, I will. I would ask them to take on some pieces that I find are really representative of the work, and if the pieces are not there I think it doesn't give the right image of the designer. I would try to push, even if they could be slightly reluctant in the beginning. I think some key pieces are important. Going back to Sylvie, snakes are an important part of her design. If I go into a store, I need to have some of these pieces because they're an important symbol of hers. Sharon: So, you would advise the store owner how to show it off, how to get it right. Lionel: Yes. Right. Sharon: What skills do you think you need to be successful? If somebody wants to do what you do, how would they be successful? Lionel: When you work with designers, it's part business, part therapy. I think you really have to listen to them. That's the important part, because you can't be totally at odds with what they're feeling and pushing for something they don't believe in. It's a dance, and it's about listening to each other. I think the relationship with the designer is really what makes it successful. Mike Joseph, Vishal, Sylvie, we've been working together for eight years, so we know each other really well now. I think that's important. Sharon: When you said therapist, what does the therapy involve? Lionel: Designers, or the good designers, are really artists. You have to listen to what they're saying, what they feel. You have to be careful about bringing the commercial part in. You also have to respect what they're designing. So, it's a dance. Sometimes a feeling of rejection can exist, so you have to work with that as well. Sharon: You were in fashion first. What kind of experience does someone in fashion have to have to go into jewelry? Lionel: It's little bit the same world, I think. You have to have a sense of aesthetics, and you have to like it as well. You don't go into jewelry if you don't like jewelry. But the transition from fashion to jewelry is pretty seamless. Sharon: Do you see a difference in the fashion world and the jewelry world? Lionel: I think there used to be a bigger difference in the sense that fashion was very fast-paced and jewelry was not. But I think jewelry is getting into that pace as well, where the designer wants to present two collections a year. So, we're getting a bit on the fashion calendar in that sense. Sharon: The jewelers, if they have a presentation, I have a visual picture of them lugging their cases and setting up. Lionel: Right. I think now people are presenting two collections a year. That used to be a fashion thing. I'm not sure it's the way to go. I don't think you sell jewelry in the same way you sell clothes. It takes more time. I've witnessed clients being disappointed because there was a collection they liked, and then the collection is gone. I think that doesn't leave enough time for people to act upon something they don't necessarily want to buy within a month or two. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode: What to expect at the second Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial and tips for attending. How Portugal's 48-year authoritarian regime and the Carnation Revolution continue to influence Portuguese artists and jewelers today. Why jewelry is so closely linked to power and politics. How artists can use masterclasses and workshops to refocus their work. How Marta is working to promote Portugal's art jewelry scene. About Marta Costa Reis Marta Costa Reis started studying jewelry in 2004, as a hobby, in parallel with other professional activities. She dedicated herself fully to this work in 2014. Costa Reis completed the jewelry course at Ar.Co – Centro de Arte e Comunicacção Visual, in Lisbon, and the Advanced Visual Arts Course at the same school, in addition to workshops with renowned teachers including Iris Eichenberg, Ruudt Peters, Lisa Walker, and Eija Mustonen, among others. In addition to being a jewelry artist, Costa Reis teaches jewelry history at Ar.Co, writes about jewelry, and curates exhibitions. She also serves as artistic director of the Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial and as a board member of Art Jewelry Forum. Additional Resources: Marta's Website Marta's Instagram Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: How does jewelry symbolize power, and where do jewelry and politics intersect? That's the central question that Marta Costa Reis and her fellow curators, artists and speakers will explore at this year's Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial. Marta joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why this year's theme is so timely; how Portugal's turbulent political history influences jewelry today; and how to plan your trip to make the most of the biennial. Read the episode transcript here. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week. Today, we're going to be talking about the Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial. I am talking with Marta Costa Reis, who is going to tell us all about it. I met Marta about eight to 5 years ago at the first biennial in Lisbon, Portugal. One of the goals was to gather together examples and information about the history of modern Portugal and the jewelry that's associated with it. When we think of Portuguese jewelry, we don't automatically think of art jewelry. But it has a history of more than several decades about the work that's been going on and art jewelry in general. The second Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial is coming up this summer in Lisbon. The last one was held in Lisbon, too. Marta Costa Rice is going to be telling us about this biennial and what to expect this summer in Lisbon. There will be a lot going on in many venues. There is the exhibition at MUDE, which is a very well-known Portuguese design museum. There's an international symposium with people coming from all over the world to discuss the theme of the exhibition, which I'll let Marta tell you about. A lot is taking place at many of the galleries. One of the key exhibits is taking place at the Royal Treasure Museum. But I don't want to steal Marta's spotlight. Today, she'll tell us all about the second Contemporary Jewelry Biennial in Portugal. Marta, welcome to the program. Marta: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me and for this very nice introduction. So, where should I start? I don't even know. There's so much to tell. I'm currently organizing the second Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial. I do it as a new chairwoman of PIN, which is a Portuguese contemporary jewelry association. Sharon: PIN, P-I-N? Marta: PIN, yes. PIN has existed now for 20 years. It will be 20 years this September. It was created to organize quite a big event. At the time, Cristina Filipe was one of the founders and was the chairwoman for a very long time. Of course, you know her by the Susan Beach Grant. She received the first Susan Beech Grant for Mid-Career Artists, and that allowed us to publish a book which came from Cristina's Ph.D. about Portuguese jewelry, contemporary jewelry in Portugal. That time, when the book was published, that's when she had traveled to Portugal and we met. We had this challenge for ourselves, saying that if we managed to do a good program to present interesting shows, good visits, we could be able to do a biennial. That's its inspiration, this trip, how all this came to happen. Of course, the timing for the first biennial—we called it the AJF trip. It was like year zero, the pilot episode. The first biennial happened in the middle of the pandemic, so we were never sure that we really would be able to make it happen because there was still a lot of restrictions. But luckily it happened in September 2021, when people were able to travel a little bit. Then we managed to have a huge number of artists and collectors and interesting people. The theme was about the pandemic. It was jewelry of protection and connecting contemporary objects, contemporary jewelry of protection in the 21st century with very old relics and sacred objects that were shown together in an exhibition in a museum here in Lisbon. Of course, we did call it the biennial to force ourselves to do the second one. Sharon: I wanted to ask, what does biennial mean, literally? Marta: It's supposed to be every two years. That that's what it means. It's supposed to happen every two years. Of course, it's a little bit more than two years now. It's two years and a half between the first one and the second one. But because we have this idea to always have as a theme for the biennial something that is happening in the world at the moment. The first one was the pandemic. Now in Portugal 2024, we will have this very important event, which is the 50th anniversary of our revolution when we became a democratic country. I don't know if people are aware that we had an authoritarian regime for 48 years, and it happened in 1974. It was a very smooth revolution. Let's just say that, because it happened without almost any gun being shot. Of course, it took a little while. The Democratic constitution was approved a bit later, but that is the fundamental moment when we became a democratic country or started to become a democratic country. It happened 50 years ago now, so it's really a whole new generation, a whole new world, and we want to celebrate that. Jewelry, of course, has a lot to do with power or representations of power. There is also in contemporary jewelry a lot of political work. Many artists do work that is political or can be read in a political way. We wanted to consider those issues, jewelry of power and political jewelry. That's basically the idea of how it came about. Sharon: Why is it called the Carnation Revolution? Marta: That's an amazing story, actually. It happened because literally a woman that had some red carnations in her hands started to put carnations, the flowers, in the guns of the soldiers. Some of the most famous images of the revolution are soldiers with the flowers in their guns. It represents a lot of things, namely that the guns were not being shot. They were holding flowers. It happened by accident. It's suggested that this lady, apparently one of the soldiers asked her for a cigarette. She said she didn't have cigarettes, but she had a flower, and she put the flower in his gun. And then people started to replicate the gesture. Until today, the red carnation--there were also white carnations, but basically the red carnation is still very much a symbol of that movement, that revolution, and it took the name. For us, thinking about that, the gesture she had is also very much a gesture of adornment, the gesture of adorning that gun with the flower. So, we wanted to pick up on that and what it could mean. Sharon: How is jewelry linked to power? Marta: You have that example, for instance, in the Royal Treasure Museum that you mentioned, which shows the jewelry of the national treasure, jewels that belonged to the state—well, to the crown, basically. Some of them were private jewelry worn by kings and queens. Some of them are more royal estate jewelry. Basically, it's that representation of the power that it can show and the time when diamonds and precious stones and even precious metals were not used by everyone. It showed how powerful a person was, how important or how close to the eye of power. It's the idea of a crown or a tiara, of a whole set of diamonds, but also all the objects that you can put on your body, like the jeweled swords and things like that. Jewelry indeed has a lot to say about power, how you show yourself as a person of power or representing a situation of power, being a king or queen or someone with a very high responsibility. That connection always existed. This museum is brand new. It will be two years ago in June. This jewelry was not accessible. It was not shown for a very long time. It was only in a temporary exhibition, so it's an excellent opportunity to see these pieces that are absolutely incredible. Although many were lost and sold, they're still a very nice collection. Sharon: So, a biennial can be anything, theoretically. Every 10 years, it could be trucks. It could be jewelry, but it could be a biennial about anything, right? Marta: We tried to connect it to things that are ongoing in the world at the moment. For 2024, our main motivation with this event was that we knew it would happen in Portugal. There will be a lot of other moments of celebration of democracy, basically. That that's what the celebration is all about. But if you look at the world at large, it's also very topical, this issue and the themes. It's something that people can relate to at the present moment, not just Portuguese. That's what we thought could be interesting, to see how our jewelers, our artists, are connecting to the world at the present and what they have to say about it through their work, through jewelry. Sharon: How did you get involved in it? Marta: I don't know. It's probably a personality trait. I like to get involved in things. I like this tendency to be of service to something larger than myself. I became involved first with PIN because in my previous professional life, I used to—I was not a lawyer, but I studied law, so I worked with law. I started to be involved with PIN about some situations that were happening with laws that were changing that affected jewelry. So, I started to cooperate with them on that issue. Then I was very much involved in AJF's first visit to Lisbon, and then in the organization of the first biennial. Sharon: AJF means—I want everybody to understand that AJF means Art Jewelry Forum. Marta: Art Jewelry Forum, yes. So, I was the person helping in Portugal. There were others, but I was one of them. I got very much involved in the first biennial and then Cristina wanted to leave and not do the second one. She was very tired and wanted to move on to something else. I said, "Okay, but we did this biennial. We need to try to do the second one." That's what happened. And I said, "Okay, I'll try to take over and do the second biennial." That's what happened. That's my mission at the moment at this organization, the Portuguese Association for Contemporary Jewelry, to do the second biennial, and from then on let's see how many more we can do. Sharon: I noticed that she wasn't on the list of speakers. Are you giving any kind of prize or a grant like Cristina received 10 years ago to do her book? Marta: No. The program is two exhibitions in the Royal Treasure Museum. One of the exhibitions will be contemporary jewelers doing work to honor a woman of their choice that had a role in the democratic transition, so a woman that was especially hurt by the dictatorship or was especially involved in the democracy. Many of them are artists because we also had censorship and artists could not be free in their work. Many of the women the jewelers chose to honor are artists. A few of them even had to leave Portugal and move to other countries to be able to do their work. But not only do we have anonymous women, we have some politicians. We had one of the first women prime ministers in Europe, so she will be honored as well. There are a few other women that people felt needed some recognition or wanted to give them their recognition. In 1974, when the revolution happened, many of the actors were men because it was done by military men, and all the politicians were men. A few women started showing up afterwards. But before the end of our dictatorship, women had no representation at all in the public space. They were mostly shown as accessories. Good woman, good wife, good cook, but that's all. Only after 1974 did women start to have their own representation as professionals in other things besides being wives. We couldn't even travel to other countries without the husband's permission or have bank accounts or things like that. When I was born, that was still the reality in my country. It's not 200 years ago. It's very, very close to us. That's also why it's important to show those who have not lived through that that an authoritarian regime is a terrible thing. So, we are honoring these women. We have another show of contemporary tiaras by a contemporary artist that will be shown next to the crown jewels. That will be an interesting contrast. These two shows will open in April. So, from April to the end of June, you can see contemporary jewelry in the Royal Treasure Museum, which will also be a first. It's a very endearing project, and there have been great, great partners. Then in May, a show by the contemporary artist Teresa Milheiro will open as well. It's sort of an anthological show, but not only. She always had political themes in her work, so that's one of the reasons why she was chosen to do this solo. Then in the last week of June, between 24th and 30th of June, there will be an immensity of shows. The big show at MUDE that is curated by myself, Mònica Gaspar and Patrícia Domingues is an international collective show with artists from many different parts of the world. Not all parts of the world, because in many countries you still don't have a lot of contemporary jewelry. But we're doing our best to have it as broad as possible. There will be what we call parallel events, which are shows organized by artists, collectives and students that are doing shows at the same time in Lisbon. There's the colloquium with international speakers from many parts of the world. The colloquium will be in English. It will also be accessible online for anyone who wants to stay at home and still be able to accompany that. It will also be about political jewelry and politics and politics of jewelry and power. This will still be the main themes. There will be a show with schools from different countries, a meeting of the students and then an exhibition. The educational part is very present. I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot of things or there are things I didn't say yet. There will be what you call a jewelry room with galleries from different countries. Galleries are still, and hopefully will be for a long time, a very important part of the jewelry world, so we want them to be present as well and show their artists and their choices. The last week of June will be absolutely filled with contemporary jewelry in Lisbon. Plus it's an amazing month. It's the best month in Lisbon. There are parties on the streets. It's the best. Sharon: Do the galleries choose what to show that's linked to this theme? What is the official theme? Marta: There is a title, which is Madrugada. That means daybreak. This title is inspired by a very beautiful poem by a Portuguese poet, Sophia de Mello Breyner. It's very short, but basically it says this is a new dawn after a very long, dark night. It's a poem about the revolution. She loosely calls it a new dawn. This is the theme. We asked the galleries to bring work that is connected to theme, to political jewelry, and we also asked them to present a Portuguese artist. Some of them already have Portuguese artists in their midst, in their group of selected artists, and some don't. What we want is for galleries to have a look at the national, Portuguese artists, and make their choice. That way, our Portuguese artists get more representation or more presence and maybe a little more representation in other countries. Sharon: You mentioned the educational piece of the shows and symposia. What do you have planned, and what are the topics? Are they in English? Marta: They are in English. The symposium is in English. I can give you some examples. We will have, for instance, and this could be interesting for you, the artist Cindi Strauss will speak about themes from the book she published recently on American jewelry in the 60s and 70s and the counterculture. She will be there. We will also have a Brazilian researcher called Dionea Rocha Watt, and she will speak about jewelry of power, like the jewelry that Imelda Marcos owns, or the jewelry from the recent scandal with the former Brazilian President Bolsonaro, who sold some jewelry he received, and other representations and connections between jewelry and power. But we will also have, for instance, Rosa Maria Mota, who will speak about traditional Portuguese jewelry. It was used by popular woman from the countryside that bought as much gold jewelry as possible as a way to preserve their finances and their power. It's the connection between traditional gold jewelry and women power. Things like that. It's always around politics and policy and power and jewelry. Hopefully it will be very interesting. Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode: What questions to ask appraisers and auction houses before selling your jewelry. What education and networking opportunities an aspiring appraiser should seek out. Why an appraisal includes multiple values, and why those values will change depending on the reason for the appraisal. What the process of selling jewelry with an auction house is like, and why you might choose an auction house over selling online or to a store. What a qualified appraiser will look for while inspecting a piece of jewelry. About Gina D'Onofrio With work in the retail, auction and manufacturing sectors of the jewelry industry since 1989, Gina D'Onofrio's experience encompasses jewelry design and production, appraisals, buying and selling of contemporary, antique and period jewelry, sales and management. Gina operates an independent gemological laboratory, appraisal service and consulting firm and has been catering to private individuals, banks, trusts, non-profit organizations, insurance companies, legal firms and the jewelry trade in the greater Los Angeles area. Gina received her Master Gemologist Appraiser® designation, upon completion of appraisal studies, written and practical examinations and peer appraisal report review with the American Society of Appraisers. In addition, she was awarded the Certified Master Appraiser designation with the National Association of Jewelry Appraisers. In 2013 Gina received Los Angeles Magazine's coveted "Best in LA" award for her Jewelry Appraisal Services. She conducts presentations and entertaining speeches about appraisal and jewelry related topics to private and corporate groups in Los Angeles and throughout the USA. Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Additional Resources: Website Instagram Facebook Email Transcript: Auctions, appraisals, and the professionals who perform them are some of the most misunderstood elements of the jewelry industry. That's exactly why Gina D'Onofrio, independent appraiser and Co-Director of Fine Jewelry at Heritage Auctions, joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast. She discussed what a consigner can expect when selling jewelry with an auction house; how appraisers come up with values (and why they might change); and how consumers can protect themselves by asking their appraiser the right questions. Read the episode transcript here. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week. Today, I am glad to welcome back Gina D'Onofrio, an appraiser who just returned from being an independent appraiser. She returned to the auction house Heritage as co-director of jewelry. She was also on the podcast in the very beginning, and it's good to have her on again. I got to know Gina when she was head of the western arm of the Association of Jewelry Historians, a volunteer position. I got to know her further when she was an independent appraiser. She recently returned to Heritage Auction House as co-director of the jewelry department. Why did she return to Heritage? That's one of the things she'll be sharing with us as she tells her story. Gina will also be describing why she chose to become an appraiser and what the job entails on a day-to-day basis. She'll tell us how she deals with the dual challenges of not only bringing in jewelry to appraise, but nurturing relationships that make clients keep coming back to her with jewelry. Gina, welcome to the podcast. Gina: Thank you so much. It's such a pleasure to be back, Sharon. Great to talk to you again. Sharon: I'm so glad that you are on the show again. Now, my first question is if I describe to you a piece of jewelry and you've never held it or seen it or anything, but I tell you it's this many years old and it's these stones, if it has stones, can you tell me how much you think it would be worth? Gina: Well, appraising a piece of jewelry that I can't actually see and evaluate and hold in my hand to determine the different value characteristics it might have, it would be flippant of me to give you a value. I think it would be unfair, because you may describe it to me based on your knowledge of the piece or based on what somebody has told you about the piece. If I hold it in my hand, I might see something totally different. I may have a different opinion. For example, you may say that someone told you it was an Art Deco brooch, that it was 1920s, and it was a sapphire and diamond piece. If I had a chance to look at it, I might determine that the sapphire was laboratory grown rather than natural, because they were producing sapphires in a lab in the 1920s. You may not have that piece of information. You may have part of it, that it's a sapphire, but you may not have the rest. So, for me to arrive at a value based on your description, it's just incomplete. It wouldn't be fair. Sharon: Could you tell if a sapphire was lab grown or if it was natural if you just looked at it without a loupe or without a microscope? Gina: No, not without a loupe. Definitely not. Sometimes I can determine with a loupe, depending on the sapphire and the nature of the inclusions it may or may not have. But I would have to say that nine times out of 10, I need that microscope to separate the lab grown from the natural. In fact, I was doing a lot of that today. I have a collection of pieces from a dealer, and they need me to tell them if it's laboratory grown or natural. Most of the pieces they have provided to me are circa 1920 through to 1940, and about 70% of them are lab grown. Sharon: That's interesting. One would think that they're mostly all the same. They're all lab grown or they're all natural, or most of them are one or the other. Gina: Yes, one would think. In fact, one of the pieces had both in the one piece. It had square calibre cut sapphires in the piece, and some of them were natural and some of them were lab grown. They were selected not for the value of the sapphires. They were selected so that they were all uniform in color. At the time, I have no doubt that those lab-grown sapphires were much more expensive than they are today, just like I imagine lab-grown diamonds will be 20 years from now. Right now, they are falling rapidly in price. I imagine in the future we'll be looking at those lab-grown diamonds just like we're looking at lab-grown sapphires that were produced in the early 20th century. Sharon: That's interesting. Like this dealer, if I have several pieces of jewelry that I want to sell or I want to auction off, should I make the rounds of auctioneers and see what the best deal is, or should I choose the one I like, the auctioneer that I jibe with the most? Gina: That's an interesting question. There's a lot of depends there. It depends on the piece that you have. Some auction houses will only take a certain price point and above in order for them to bring your piece to a successful sale. So, already, your piece may or may not be suitable for some auction houses. The second part of your question, I think, is very important because the market is going to do what it's going to do. If the auction house is one of the more reputable, top-tier auction houses—Heritage Auctions is definitely one of them. If they are going to be putting the proper marketing behind your piece, professional photography, if they have an international bidding audience, then after that, it's going to be important to know that you have a comfortable relationship with the representative of that auction house and that they are going to be your advocate, because it's not just the estimate. In fact, the estimate is probably the very least important thing about your piece if you were going to be selling it at auction. What's more important is what are they going to do for you? Are they going to represent your piece properly? Do they have the right audience for your piece? How many photographs of the piece are going to be taken? Is it going to be up for a public preview? Is it a traveling preview that your piece is going to be placed in? There are many aspects to this that need to be discussed with you as the consignor. Then also, what fees are you going to be charged? There's a lot of ifs. I wish I could give you a more direct answer, but if you were going to me, for example, at Heritage Auctions, I'm going to be exploring all those options with you so that you can make an informed decision. Sharon: On the Antiques Roadshow, they say very often, "In a well-marketed auction, this would be X-Y-Z price." To me, a well-marketed auction is one that has to advertise. I'd see ads. That's it. What would you consider a well-marketed auction piece or auction? Gina: Well, Sharon, coming from you, I think that's an excellent question since you are a marketing extraordinaire. These days, marketing is very different, isn't it? We're looking at more the digital aspect of marketing, because so many of us are online now, just like you and I are right now. Being online for marketing is what type of social media presence do you have? What type of email marketing do you have? Also, what is your bidding audience for marketing? How are you able to reach them? Through email, or are you just relying on more conventional forms of auction marketing, be it print advertising or be it public previews? I think in this present market, it's good to have a balance of both. But I am finding that digital marketing is becoming more and more critical. Sharon: I would believe that. I'm curious, what are the fees involved? Is it the buyer who pays the fees or the auction house that pays the fees to the buyer? I never understood that. Gina: Again, it depends. As far as the consignor goes, if you have the Hope Diamond, then I imagine that the buyer will have no fees to pay. It is such a highly coveted piece that everybody would be very competitive to have that on the cover of their auction catalog. But in the auction world, with most auction houses, both the buyer and the seller are paying fees. This is how the auction house survives. The fees are going to vary depending on the consignment. How many pieces are you consigning? What is the value of the pieces that you're consigning? That is going to vary. On the buyer end, the fees are very much locked in. I have to tell you, I don't join Heritage Auctions again for another two weeks, so I don't have the most current buyer's fees. But I believe that it is around 25%, give or take, up until a certain amount. Above that, the buyer's premium starts to go down in price. It's tiered depending on the value of the piece, the hammer price of the piece that you are purchasing. Sharon: Can you negotiate? Let's say you do have the Hope Diamond. What is negotiable? How many pieces you are putting in, but how much you're getting for each piece or reserved prices? Gina: As a consignor? Sharon: Yes. Gina: Fees can be negotiable if you have something important. If it's a lot of work to sell a piece, and by that I mean if you have 100 pieces that are probably going to auction for $1,000 or less, then you will probably pay the full rate because it's a lot of work to sell all those individual pieces for the amount of money that the auction house will receive. It really depends on what you have. But if you have something very important with important provenance like the Hope Diamond, then that's definitely negotiable. As far as reserves go, reserves are something that the specialist should really set for you. That is something they will suggest to you. You may or may not agree with them, but at the end of the day, once you arrive at an agreed reserve, then that goes into your contract. That is contractual. Sharon: Can you explain to everybody to make sure we're all on the same page, what is the reserve, what's a consigner, and what's the opposite? Gina: Yes, the language. The consignor is the person that owns the jewelry. They are the person that is loaning the jewelry to the auction house to give them the opportunity to sell it on behalf of the consignor. So, the consignor owns the piece. The reserve is the absolute minimum that the piece will hammer for, and hammer means the final bid, the highest bid that someone will pay for at auction. That is the absolute minimum that it will go for at auction. That is the reserve. It is also the opening bid for Heritage Auctions. For example, let's say a piece has an auction estimate of $1,500 to $2,500, and I may suggest to you that the reserve for that piece should be $1,000. The opening bid, the minimum is $1,000, so the bidding begins at that amount. If nobody else bids on that piece except for one person who has bid the reserve, $1,000, that is the price it will hammer for. That is the final sale. Does that make sense? Sharon: It makes sense. I was wondering how long somebody has to pull the piece back, as they say. If they have the feeling they won't like what the hammer price is, can they pull it back? Gina: The reserve, that $1,000 for that piece is in their written contract. And in the written contract, they have agreed to allow the auction house to take it through to completion. By the time it is photographed, cataloged, shipped, insured, marketed, the auction house has invested a certain amount of money in that piece. So, if there is a contract, if there is an agreement for the auction house to try and sell this on behalf of the consignor, they have to be allowed to take it through to completion. That is why it is in the contract, because the auction house is investing money in the piece. Sharon: That makes a lot of sense. Jumping subjects, in jewelry you can do a lot of different things. Why did you decide to become an appraiser? You could have done a lot of things with a GIA, a gemological degree. Why did you decide to become an appraiser? Gina: That's a great question. For me, I didn't initially plan on becoming an appraiser. I worked in different areas of the jewelry industry. I got my Gemological Diploma. I graduated in 1992. I got my FGA. I worked in retail and then I worked in design. At the time, I was also doing appraisals in Australia. We call them valuations. I was a valuer, but that was something that I did part time. I did what was required at the time. Then I worked for an antiques dealer and was involved in buying and selling of antique and estate jewelry. Then I worked for a manufacturer assisting in the production of jewelry. I worked in different areas of the jewelry industry. Many years later I decided to open my own business, and that business was going to be doing custom design work because I was able to draw, do renderings and was very good with production. The other half of my business was going to be appraisals. I was doing both, and the business pretty much decided for me what I was going to do full time. After I was established, I realized that there was such a demand for an independent appraiser that I had to stop jewelry designing and just focus on the appraisal aspect of it. Sharon: Why an independent appraiser? I would think that if you go to an auction house, I would like to think it's an independent appraisal. If the appraiser works for the auction house, whether or not they do, it would still be an independent appraisal. Is that true or not? Gina: Well, to answer that question, we probably need to back up a little bit and define what an appraisal is. An appraisal is a researched opinion of value. In order for me to arrive at a researched opinion of value, I need to know what you, the client, want to do with the information. Are you purchasing insurance for your piece? If that's the case, we need to appraise your piece for what it would cost for you to walk into a store that typically sells that piece of jewelry. We research that market. We research all the stores that typically sell your jewelry. The most common price is what I would appraise it for. If you are selling that exact same piece of jewelry, that ends up being a different value. So, I have to understand what you want to do with that information. If you, as a private individual, want to sell your piece of jewelry, your options are to sell it at auction, to sell it directly to a dealer or a store that sells pre-owned jewelry, or you could put it online on eBay or one of the online auction platforms yourself as a private individual. In all cases, there is a cost to selling that we have to factor in, and we also have to research what pieces like yours have recently sold at auction. We look at the most common price to arrive at an opinion of resale value. That value is going to be different to what you would pay for it in a retail store. Sharon: You reminded me that earlier today I happened to be looking at an estate jewelry site and they said, "You can consign your jewelry with us." I thought that was interesting. I wonder, do they pay more for it? Where would we get the most for it? Is there a rule of thumb? Gina: Well, again, it depends. What type of marketing, what type of audience do they have, what type of track record do they have? I really can't speak to the online vendor you're referring to because I don't know who it is. But basically, you want to sell your jewelry with the company or the platform that has the biggest audience and the best track record, and the ones that are going to do the most in the form of marketing for your piece. And then also you have to look at the cost of selling and take all that into consideration. Who is going to represent your piece in the best possible way? Sharon: What was the process that you had to go through to become an appraiser once you decided that's what you wanted to do, plus the rendering and the custom design? What did you have to do? Gina: For me, my skill set is a culmination of having worked in different areas of the industry. Everything that I had done up until the point where I started to appraise independently assisted me in being able to evaluate a piece. Aside from that, having a Gemological Diploma, having experience in different areas of the jewelry industry, having handled thousands and thousands of antique and period pieces of jewelry, having worked for a manufacturer and understanding the process of manufacturing jewelry, understanding the difference between a handmade piece versus a cast, mass produced piece. My past experience helped me with all of that. That's one side of appraisal education, hands-on experience. The other side is understanding how to write an appraisal report and appraisal theory, which is some of what I was trying to describe to you earlier with some of the questions you posed. For example, understanding the difference between resale value, liquidation value, fair market value, writing an appraisal for the IRS, writing an appraisal as an expert witness for settling a dispute in court. This is all education that you can gain by attending classes with an appraisal organization. Reputable appraisal organizations have what we call principles of value. They teach classes on writing appraisal reports for different reasons. You also need to have a solid foundation in jewelry history. Unfortunately, there's no one path to gaining education in jewelry history. It's something that you acquire through various appraisal conferences and appraisal organizations. It is ongoing. I myself found that there was a serious need for education in jewelry history, so I have developed my own courses and I have been teaching them. I've been teaching 20th century jewelry history to various organizations and also in shorter form for jewelry seminars. This is something that a jewelry appraiser really needs a solid foundation in. The other part of being an independent jewelry appraiser is not just knowing jewelry history, jewelry theory, jewelry appraisal report writing and jewelry manufacturing, but they also need to understand who all the major jewelry designers are. They need to self-educate by going to those jewelry houses. Cartier, Tiffany and Company, David Webb, Chopard, all the major jewelry designers. Learn who they all are. Learn what is typical of their design. Start handling more and more pieces from these major jewelry designers at auction previews. Attend as many auction previews as you can. Attend as many conferences as you can, as many jewelry shows as you can. The more exposure that an appraiser has, the better an appraiser they will become. Sharon: So, there's no license or something you can get that teaches you all this, like how to write the reports and the history and whatever else there is involved, which is a lot. Gina: Yes, it's a lot. It's ongoing. I've been doing this for 35 years now. I'm still learning. I teach it and I'm still learning, and that's why I love it. It's never ending. You can learn the theory of appraisal report writing with an appraisal organization such as the ASA, the American Society of Appraisers, or the NAJA, National Association of Jewelry Appraisers or the ISA. I'm mentioning them all because I'm not showing favoritism for one over another. They all have their strengths. I'm a member of all three, but they all have education they can provide for appraisers. Then there are organizations like the Accredited Gemologists Association, which I believe is a must because they provide education for the cutting edge of gemology, the latest treatments and techniques that you need to learn. They have conferences twice a year and also online education. Then you should join the American Society of Jewelry Historians so that you can network with other people who are trying to self-educate on jewelry history and become privy to some of the education that they provide. There are also two major antique jewelry shows that you can attend in the US. One of them is the Miami Antiques Show that is in January, and the other one is the Jewelry Antique Show in Las Vegas at the end of May, early June. I attend the one in Las Vegas every single year. I attend as many jewelry previews as I can and visit many estate jewelry retailers, too. The more that you handle, the more that you inspect, the better you are going to be as an appraiser. Sharon: What do you look for when you're inspecting and handling these pieces? What do you look for? Gina: You're training your eye. I'm training my eye. I'm becoming a connoisseur. You can see behind me there are a lot of books there. I do read a lot of books on jewelry design, jewelry designers and jewelry history. Then I go out and look at jewelry from those particular designers, and I look for consistency in how a piece is being made. I look at how that piece has been found. I look at consistency in the design. For example, if I am looking at pieces of jewelry by an American designer, David Webb, David Webb was very active in the 60s and 70s. He died, I believe, in the late 70s, but his jewelry designs are still being made today from his catalog of designs. He was a very active designer with an enormous collection of renderings. His pieces are still being made, and there's a consistency to how he liked to design his jewelry. His jewelry designs were always very big and bold. They were colorful, or they were very black and white chromatic. He had a way of signing his jewelry. He had certain influences that informed how he designed that jewelry. There was a consistency in all of that. David Webb always liked to work in yellow gold and platinum. You don't typically see jewelry by David Webb that is white gold and platinum or white gold and yellow gold. It's platinum and yellow gold. That was his choice of metals. So, if you see something that's white gold and yellow gold, already, that's a red flag. But you wouldn't know to look for that unless you're handling a lot of pieces by that particular designer. Cartier, for example, their jewelry was manufactured in Paris, but also some of the jewelry is manufactured in the US. They sign their jewelry in a particular way. They have certain collections that they designed over the decades. Until you start handling more and more pieces by that jewelry house, you would not know how to recognize it unless you're reading the books and cross-referencing. Sharon, I am giving you very long answers to these questions. I hope that it's helping. Sharon: No, it's interesting. It's making me think of other questions. For instance, you talked about the replicas from David Webb. They're still doing things from the catalog. Would that be worth as much as an original David Webb, as when he was alive, if you had a replica? Gina: Well, when you say replica, you mean a newer David Webb piece versus an older David Webb piece, right? Because a replica means somebody who is not David Webb has replicated it, has copied it, and that's a different thing. I'm just clarifying for the audience. Sharon: No, please. Gina: We're talking about a newer David Webb piece made from the back catalog. I guess it depends on the piece. There are collectors of David Webb jewelry who like to think that they're buying an earlier piece of David Webb jewelry when David Webb was active. But newer David Webb jewelry is still collectible and still very desirable. Sharon: That's interesting. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode: How Saudia is preserving her mom Cara Croninger's legacy Why Cara Croninger's resin and plastic jewelry was—and still is—groundbreaking How Cara Croninger refined her jewelry making process, and why she didn't want her pieces to be perfect What it was like to grow up in an artistic family in the heyday of New York's art jewelry scene How Saudia's mom and dad influenced her music career today About Saudia Young Saudia Young is a New York City-born actress/singer and storyteller in theater and film. Born on the Lower East Side and brought up between Tribeca and LA, Young explores the notion of home, love, justice, and identity through her art. The recently repatriated artist lived in Berlin, Germany, for a long chapter of performing, writing, and producing. The Ameripolitan Awards 2023 Female Rockabilly Singer nominee released her 7" single 'Noir Rockabilly Blues,' produced by Lars Vegas-DE and featuring 'The Wobble' on the A and Iggy Pop's 'Lust for Life' on the B side, in 2017, followed up by her 12" debut 'Unlovable' in 2018. The LP was recorded live at Berlin, Germany's legendary Lightning Recorders. Young founded a Dark Kabarett and a Rockabilly Noir Blues band in Berlin, co-created the Lost Cabaret and the Schwarze Liste Kabarett theater projects and wrote and produced the award-winning short film The Gallery. While in Berlin, she was cast in the lead voice-over role of Oskar in School for Vampires (the English version of the Hahn Film cartoon series). Young co-wrote and performed the solo show Sneaker Revolution and is currently writing a theater/film piece about her actor father, Otis Young, and sculptor/designer mom Cara Croninger. Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Additional Resources: Saudia's Website Saudia's Instagram Saudia's Youtube Transcript: To jewelry lovers, Cara Croninger was a groundbreaking artist whose work was shown at iconic galleries Artwear and Sculpture to Wear. To musician and actress Saudia Young, she was just mom. Today, Saudia is working to preserve her mother's legacy and secure her place in art jewelry history. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how Cara made her pioneering resin jewelry; how Cara's work evolved with the times; and why Saudia thinks of her mom every time she performs. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week. Today, we're speaking to my guest, Saudia Young, who is located in Philadelphia. She has an interesting background. Her mother was a very well-known jeweler, and her father was an actor. She was born in New York and grew up between New York and Los Angeles. She is New York material. You will be surprised to hear that she developed a career as an actress, a writer and a singer. She's described as having a whisky voice, and I think that's true, a caramel whisky voice. She was a nominee in 2023. Saudia: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really glad to come on to your show for the second time. It was the Ameripolitan Music Awards. I was simply nominated for female rockabilly singer. There are lots of different categories and full bands. Jane Rose won for the rockabilly female singer that year. They're moving on, but it was very exciting to come after 15 years in Germany to participate in that. I've met a lot of awesome people because of that. Sharon: I know you've lived in several places, but I didn't know for 15 years, you say, in Berlin? Saudia: Yes. Sharon: Wow! Now you're in Philadelphia this evening. Saudia: Yes. Sharon: Is that your home? Saudia: It is for now. It's where my sister lives. I have a sister from my mother and my father. He had other children, so that's why I clarify that. I'm spending some time with my sister. I've been back and forth in the States since my mom passed in 2019. I'm honestly trying to figure out where I'm going to live. It's not clear because of Covid and my mom passing, but it's been a lot. Sharon: 15 years being in one place. Saudia: Yeah, so I'm here for now. I feel like I can't commit to saying this is my home. It's like, "Let's see what it brings. Let's see what happens." It's great to hang out with my sister. I'm close to my mom's work, which is stored now in Hackensack, New Jersey. I moved it from New York. My mom's work has had more of a tour than I have. Sharon: Cara Croninger is your mom's name. Even though she passed—I'm very sorry to hear that—she's still very well-known. She has an exhibit in the Smithsonian? Saudia: No, it's simply her papers, photographs, articles, fashion editorials. As you know, she bridged fashion and art. She was in both worlds. She had a toe or a foot or whatever in both worlds, so she has been accepted into the Archives of American Art at the Smithsonian. That means they have letters, her correspondence to other artists and gallerists and whomever, any type of reviews, sketches, all her boxes of papers and some photographs. It's an honor. It was sad to let that go, but it's also awesome because that means it's helping to secure her legacy. It will eventually be uploaded digitally so people will be able to look at it. You can go into the archives and look up different artists and see their papers. For example, one of my favorite things were letters from Floriana Frassetto, who founded Mummenschanz and was one of her best friends. She always wrote these beautiful letters to her. She would call her Cara Mia. She was Swiss-Italian. So, it's just that, showing the ephemeral items in her life. Sharon: You've been on this program before. You were among our first guests— Saudia: Yeah. Sharon: If you want to listen to it, it's on TheJewelryJourney.com. We're so glad to have you back again. Saudia: Thank you. Sharon: Tell me why your mom's jewelry was different. What was the breakthrough? Why are they keeping her papers? Saudia: I think because of that bridge. She wasn't craft. She came as a sculptor. Her jewelry was made of acrylic and polyester resin, although she did work in other materials like metals. She started off painting, but the work was always very sculptural and almost avant garde. It went from very organic and indigenous and African influenced to futuristic. It was solidly in the art world, but also solidly in the fashion world when she was with Robert Lee Morris' gallery, Artwear, and before that, Sculpture to Wear. Artwear blew up and it was very, very popular in the press and in fashion magazines. All the top models were wearing it. People like Iman would come to the gallery openings. It was part of that whole exciting time in the 80s in New York, seeping a little bit into the 90s, but mostly in the 80s. It was in the late 70s and throughout the 80s that they had their heyday. There were other artists in this gallery that are now working and very well-known, like Ted Muehling, Robert Lee Morris himself. Carol Motty, may she rest in peace, was a very, very good friend of my mom. She worked in silicone. Sharon: I'm sorry. I don't know her. Saudia: Carol Motty. She did wild, neon-colored, awesome pieces in silicone rubber. She was unique in that it literally was a bridge of art and fashion. That's what she built. I think that was her significance. In terms of the materials, the pieces cost anywhere from $40 to $4,000 or more. She raised the level of this material, which is plastic resin and acrylic, polyester resin, to a very high level. It would get the same price that silver and gold and gemstone jewels would get because of the beauty, the workmanship, that she put into it. The work is known for having this sensual beauty. A lot of the pieces have a wonderful weight. They have a talisman magic to them. People often will collect the pieces. You even collected some pieces. Sharon: Yeah, I did. I love them. Saudia: It's kind of magic. She herself as a person was a beautiful, down-to-earth, but funny and effervescent person. People loved meeting her. They loved collecting the work. Sharon: What was the role you and your sister played? Saudia: We were her daughters. We did help make work. There were points where we learned how to do the finishing work. We never did the pouring, creating the pigments or the molds, but we could help with finishing. We'd be her child laborers and work on the sanding machine or polishing or drilling holes or what have you. We were able to do finishing work. Because we grew up with it, we understood the shapes and her style, but even growing up with it, there was always some kind of tension. She would say, "That's your style. That's not mine." It wasn't easy because it was so organic and very unique. That made it hard for her to have people work for her. Sharon: When you would attend these parties or an opening night at the galleries, did you know who the celebrities of the day were? Were you aware? Saudia: Yeah, I was in my early 20s or so. At one point, my sister and I both worked at Artwear. We were both looking forward to working with Robert. That was always really fun. Even the artists were celebrities to us because they were so talented and vivacious and positive. I knew a lot of the models, the supermodels, Pat Cleveland and whomever, but since my dad was an actor, I grew up already having certain people in my life. I was trained for that to be not that big of a deal because I just grew up in that. When my parents met, they were in the Village in the 60s. James Baldwin was a good friend of my dad, and he was allegedly my godfather. It was a smaller world in a way. Definitely, the 60s and even the 80s feel like a more innocent time than now for some reason. I met different celebrities just on my own, and you felt like they were New Yorkers. I knew Jean-Michel Basquiat and I was like, "He's just a kid." I had no clue. Sharon: Wow! So, this wasn't a new milieu to you. You knew the big names—I would call them big names—who would come over for dinner. They were around you. Saudia: Yeah, but it wasn't—now we're going back even before Artwear. It was normal to me. I didn't notice it. It was just part of being a kid in New York, a kid of artists. You know what I mean? Sharon: But your mother was making this jewelry that I would call groundbreaking. Today we look at it and go, "Oh, it's a piece of plastic," but it was groundbreaking then. Saudia: Yeah, it was definitely groundbreaking. I think it still is because there are few people who can work in it, like Patricia von Musulin, who's an amazing artist who works with acrylics. There are some people who can work with it. There's Alexis Bittar, who borrowed a lot of designs from my mom. There are people who can work with it and it's beautiful, but often you see stuff that's mass produced overseas. It doesn't have a good feeling; it just feels cheap. Her work still has this magic weight to it. But as I said, as kids, we didn't know. It was just, "My mom's an artist. She's working at her studio making her stuff." Sharon: Was her studio a separate place or was it where you lived? Saudia: She had many different studios. She had a shared space in Gowanus in Brooklyn, a huge foundry that had 80-foot ceilings that she shared with approximately five other artists. Now, I'm jumping back and forth with timelines. I'm not great with timelines. She had a studio in Dumbo, Brooklyn, at 68 Jay, which was a 2,000-square-foot, awesome studio that she lived in illegally. Our formative years when we were little were on the Lower East Side, but we lived in Tribeca when it was still very industrial. We first started off on Washington Street in an apartment. I think it was a three-bedroom apartment that I recently got to visit again, which was amazing. She cordoned off a little section of that Astor studio, and then what happened? O.K., when we were at Washington Street, she was able to be one of the resident artists in the Clocktower, which was a studio project where Alanna Heiss was organizing unusual spaces for artists to either create their work or show their work. My mom was one of several artists who were in the Clocktower. That's where she actually met the artist who showed her how to work with plastics. I don't know what his name was. Sharon: So, she wasn't working with plastic until she met these people? Saudia: Yeah. She started off painting and doing leatherwork, painting on leather, sewing leather bags, fringe work, Japanese-style obi belts. That's what she started doing first in terms of accessories and crafts. Sharon: Did your friends know she was a big name, let's say? Saudia: No, we were all pretty clueless. A lot of our friends were kids of painters. We related to them as workers, like this is what they did for their work. My mom was the lady who made great bread. She made homemade bread, and she made great chicken. People would come over and eat. She was a very social person. We had extended family members, but I don't think my friends thought of her as that famous, not really. Sharon: I was going to ask you why she wouldn't let you pour, but that made her work. That's her name. Saudia: I didn't have any desire to pour. As a teenagers, at 18? No desire. I was off doing my own thing. I had my own ways of expressing and my own life. That was her thing. Sharon: What colors did she like? I've seen some pieces, but I know she had a whole range. Saudia: She worked in an amazing array of colors. She loved vibrant primary colors. She also worked in colors that were more organic, that were reminiscent of ivory or amber. She would do pours. I think we spoke about this. She would do a pour about once a year. It was always a big deal for her to get the emotional wherewithal to do a pour. Also, I think she was aware of the toxicity. She only wanted to pour during the summer, when the windows could be open and the heat would help the plastic pour faster.

What you'll learn in this episode: Why artist jewelry is more than just miniature versions of larger work The history of artist jewelry, and how Esther is helping its story continue How Esther helps artists with their first forays into jewelry, and why making jewelry can be a fruitful challenge for fine artists Why an artist's first idea for a piece of jewelry is often not their best Why artist jewelry collectors must be brave About Esther de Beaucé Esther de Beaucé is the founder and owner of Galerie MiniMasterpiece in Paris, France. MiniMasterpiece is a gallery entirely dedicated to contemporary artists, designers and architects' jewelry. The gallery is an invitation given to those who usually never design jewelry because their work evolves on a more monumental scale (i.e. sculptures). Esther's passion is to convince those artists to change the scale of their work and accompany them in that new field of wearable art. She has collaborated with acclaimed contemporary artists such as Phillip King, Bernar Venet, Andres Serrano, Lee Ufan, Jean-Luc Moulène, and Pablo Reinoso. A graduate of Brown University, Esther previously co-owned the gallery Schirman & de Beaucé in Paris, dedicated to young artists of contemporary art. Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com Additional Resources: Website Instagram Transcript: For gallerist Esther de Beaucé, artist jewelry isn't completely art or completely contemporary jewelry. It's in a niche all its own—and that's what makes it fascinating. As founder and owner of Galerie MiniMasterpiece in Paris, she helps fine artists translate their art into jewelry, creating something entirely new rather than a smaller version of their typical work. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she challenges artists to think about their work differently; how interest in artist jewelry has evolved over the years; and why artist jewelry collectors are so open minded. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception. Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. I don't remember how I found out about Esther de Beaucé's gallery in Paris. It is tucked back in the corner with other galleries. Welcome back. Do you have collectors, people who like a certain artist or piece they've found in your gallery, and then they come back and look for others, or you send them a postcard telling them, "We're having a show of that artist," or something like that? Esther: Yes. I have shows at the gallery as well, maybe for a year. Most of the time they are solo shows. I like solo shows a lot because it's like for art, when when you have a solo show, you're surrounded by several pieces of work. You are emerging into their body of work. It's more interesting to me than having one piece by that artist and another piece by another artist. I like solo shows a lot, but solo shows are not easy to make because it means that obviously the artist had several ideas. It takes a lot of time to organize a solo show, but I try to make solo shows most of the time. I invite all my collectors to these shows. It's always difficult to know what's going to happen between a collector and a piece of jewelry, what connection is going to operate at that time. Sometimes collectors choose or fall for an object, and they don't know the artist who's behind it, but they really fall for an object. I really like that idea. Sometimes collectors are very close to an artist, and they have several pieces of that artist in their homes. When they realize that artist has also made a piece of jewelry, then of course they're going to be interested in it. Most of the jewels I have at the gallery, I hope they speak for themselves. You were asking me about collectors and jewelry. Sharon: You answered the question. But do have people who only collect, let's say, Pablo Picasso's jewelry or something that? Esther: Yeah, of course. Some women only wear silver or only wear gold or only wear rings or never wear any brooches. I try to remember all that so I can show them what they like. But I also enjoy presenting them with other things, too, because it's always interesting to make discoveries. And the collectors of artist jewelry are very open-minded people. It takes a lot of, I wouldn't say courage, but it takes a lot of personality to wear something that is different from common jewelry. You have to be strong because you're going to attract looks, and sometimes you have to speak about what you're wearing and answer people's reactions. Sometimes other people can be very narrow-minded, and you have to assume what you chose and what you wear on your body. So, this type of collector, they're very interesting to welcome. What I mean is that even though they have their taste, they are easy to counsel as well because they have that curiosity. They want to learn, and they want to see so much. So, they are very interesting people. Sharon: Do they go on to start liking the artist's other things, their paintings or drawings, after they started with the jewelry? Esther: Yes, of course. I have a lot of jewels at the gallery, but I also have a lot of books, and those books help me explain the artist's work at large. Often, when I can, I try to offer a book to accompany the jewel to give them more background on the artist. Yeah, definitely. Sharon: Do you make jewelry yourself? Did you ever make jewelry yourself? Esther: No. Never. Maybe as a kid playing with leaves and flowers, but that's it. Or pasta. Sharon: What did you study? When you were in the States, did you think about opening a gallery in France? Esther: No, I studied anthropology. I really wanted to work as an anthropologist, but it didn't happen. After that first art experience that ended in 2012, I wanted a new project working with artists. I had seen the year before, in 2011, a great artist jewelry show at the MAD in New York. That was actually my mother's collection of artist jewelry. I went to New York for her opening, and it was the first time that I saw her collection in the museum environment, and I was so impressed. I started thinking of a new project for myself, and this show in New York was really—how would you say— Sharon: Eye opening. Esther: That's it. Eye opening and a decision-making moment. And as I came back to Paris, I started really talking about it and organizing my professional life to make it possible. Sharon: That's interesting. When you said your mother was a collector, I thought, "Well, she must have started early, before anybody was wearing it or knew about it." Today, more and more people know about it, but then she probably didn't have a lot of friends who were collecting the same thing. Esther: Yeah, for sure. That show was 12 years ago, but she started collecting artist jewelry 40 years ago. There are few women in the world who have done the same thing. There are few. It's a large and important collection. She focused on that in a professional way. Sharon: When you said that you thought it was a more active field in the 60s and 70s and then it sort of died down, why do you think that was? Esther: It's a matter of different elements. I think it was in 1969, there was a great show at the MOMA in New York on artist jewelry that's never happened since. You also had great artists, jewelry editors at that time in Italy. You had GianCarlo Montebello, who was a goldsmith and an editor, and he worked with fantastic artists like Fontana and the Pomodoro brothers. Montebello made fantastic pieces. In the south of France, you had François Hugo, who was a very important goldsmith as well. He's the one who made all the jewelry by Max Ernst and Man Ray and Picasso and Dorothea Tanning. Sometimes it's just a matter of a few people. They really made the artist jewelry world very active at the time, but then they stopped and did something else, so it went quiet again. Hopefully, it's getting more intense now, but you need people behind it. Once these people do something else, then it dies a little bit. And then you have a new generation of editors and it starts again. Sharon: By editor you also mean curator, right? It's a curator. Esther: Also, yeah. By editor I mean what I do personally, but what also has been done by Luisa Guinness or Elisabetta Cipriani or Marina Filippini, those active editors, meaning you invite artists to make jewelry pieces. This is what I called editor. This is what I do. Sharon: Do you only wear art jewelry that you have in your gallery or that an artist has made, or do you wear "normal" jewelry? Esther: It might sound weird to you, but I'm a low-key person. I'm a discreet person. When I'm at the gallery every day, I choose a piece of work and I wear it all day in the gallery with an immense pleasure. But when I go out, when I go to a dinner party or visit a show, I don't wear jewelry. It might sound funny, but I wouldn't want people to think I am always promoting what I do and my work. Imagine a regular art dealer. He wouldn't go to an art fair or to a to a dinner party carrying with him a painting or a sculpture. When I go out wearing a jewel from the gallery, I feel like I'm still working, and I don't like that idea. I don't want people to imagine that I'm always trying to sell jewelry. So, in dinner parties, I'm very often the only woman not wearing any piece of jewelry, which is very stupid. But yeah, this is me. Sharon: That's interesting. Has anybody ever stopped you on the street and said, "That's a really interesting necklace you have on"? Esther: Yeah, but not very often because when you see me on the street, I don't have it on me. Of course, on special occasions I do, but I mostly wear artist jewelry in the gallery, and it's a great pleasure to do so. I change every day and wear several of them because it's very important for people to see those jewels on the body. A piece of jewelry on the body is very different from a photo of a jewel. You really need to see how it goes on the neck or on the finger. It really makes it alive. So, to see me with artist jewelry, you have to come to the gallery. If you see me on the street, you would not really see any artist jewelry on me. I was telling you about collectors and how they are strong-minded, and I'm probably more shy. Sharon: Well, based on the collection in your gallery, I wouldn't call you shy. I'm curious, when you get dressed in the morning, do you walk to the gallery without anything on and then you put something on when you come to the gallery? Esther: Well, I have my clothes on, obviously, but I choose clothing that will fit the best with jewelry. I have funny pants and funny shoes, but I always have black or white tops. When you have too much information on a sweater or shirt, sometimes it draws away the attention from the jewel. So, this is something I pay attention to in the morning. This is why I have funny shoes but not funny outfits too much. Sharon: How do you describe what you do if somebody says, "Well, what do you do?" when you're at a party? Esther: I have a neighbor who's a great contemporary art gallerist, and he was introducing me to a friend of his a few days ago at an art fair. He said, "This is Esther, and she's doing the most rare job in the art world." And I was like, "This is an interesting way of putting what I'm doing." It's true that I am part of the art scene, yet it's such a tiny niche. This is how he saw and how he described my job. But I would say that what I do is invite those who never make jewelry because they are sculptors, and I ask these people, who are not jewelry specialists, to make a jewelry piece for the gallery. This is how I like to speak of my job. Otherwise, I say that I'm an artist jewelry editor, but then sometimes you have to give more explanations than just those three words. It doesn't explain well enough. So, to make it more clear, I usually say that I invite those who never make jewelry. Sharon: Do you consider yourself part of the art scene or jewelry? Are you part of the art world or the jewelry world? Esther: It's a tricky question. I'm part of the two, but the artists I work with are not part of the jewelry world. Obviously, they are a part of the art world, and through our collaboration, I bring them to the jewelry world. But I would say I'm maybe 80% from the art world and 20% from the jewelry world. I think artist jewelry is very interesting because it offers a new perspective on jewelry and contemporary jewelry. Because the artists I work with have nothing to do with jewelry, most of the time they're going to bring something new to the jewelry world, new ideas, new possibility. This is what makes it very interesting for the jewelry world. At the same time, I think the invitation I make to those artists is also both a challenge and recreation time. It has to be fun and it has to be, for them, a means to work with new material like silver and gold. It's a new experience for them. The invitation also has to feed them, in the way that it has to bring them something new and challenging. Otherwise, it's not interesting for them. I really try to value that new experience for them. Sharon: That's interesting what you're saying. Do you have to say some of that? Do you have to convince some of the artists that it will be interesting for them? Esther: When I invite them, I say all those things. I don't even wait for them to need me to convince them. I say it all at once, that my invitation is full of all these aspects. Of course, it's going to be difficult for them to find a good idea, yet I'm here to accompany them, and the goldsmiths that I chose and that I work with are extraordinary people. It's a great gift that I give to artists, to be able to work with these people, because they are fantastic goldsmiths and very interesting people to work with. Sharon: Do any of the artists ever call you and say, "Esther, I just don't have an idea. I don't know what to do. I've drawn 14 things, and I just don't like them." What do you do then? Esther: Yeah, of course. It happens. Sometimes they need a little more time. I don't put any pressure on them. When they're ready, they're ready. Sometimes when they are very focused on an idea that I don't believe too much in, I make a prototype just so that I can show them the prototype and explain to them why I don't think it's strong enough. Sometimes they have to see it for real. This is sometimes something that I do. Okay, you really want to make this? I am going to show you what it looks like, and then we can continue our conversation. Sharon: Did you ever consider, before you started this or when you were thinking about what to do after the other gallery, did you think about selling a different kind of jewelry? Esther: No, I'm very busy with the jewels already. There are many contemporary jewelers that come to me, and sometimes I really fall for their work because there are many great contemporary jewelers. But I try to restrain myself. Sometimes I buy a piece for my own pleasure. But the gallery's story is something different, and I try to remain on that path because there is still a lot to do on it. I want to focus on that story for now. Sharon: So, you're saying if somebody comes in and shows you something that you don't think is on the path, let's say, you might buy it for yourself. You might like it. Esther: Of course, it has happened. Yeah, it has happened. But I have to tell you that I spend all my money on producing the artist jewels, because I produce myself. I pay the goldsmith who's going to work with the artist, so this is taking a lot of the gallery's budget. I don't have that much money left for buying other kinds of jewelry. But it has happened that I do. Sharon: Does the artist sign the piece? Do you both sign it, or do you sign it? Esther: No, no, no, I never sign. It's the artist's signature on it, of course. On certificates, I just add that it has been edited by Galerie MiniMasterpiece. Sharon: How did you come up with the name of the gallery, MiniMasterpiece? Esther: It was a conversation with my mother and my stepfather. We were looking for a name, and we wanted it to be linked to the art world more than the jewelry world. MiniMasterpiece is not a bad name. It is a reference to masterpieces, so to art. It has the mini, obviously, so it's a small work of art. But who knows? Maybe in the future I will find another name. But for now, it's this one. Sharon: It's a great name. I was just wondering how you came up with it. Mini seems very American, or very English and not very French. That's all. That's why I'm asking. Esther: Actually, masterpiece is obviously an English name, because we would say in French chef-d'œuvre. But mini is something that is used in French also. Sharon: Okay. So, the contemporary jewelry. I might do really interesting contemporary jewelry. I don't, but let's say I do, but I don't do pictures and drawings. Esther: Well, then you're not really what I'm interested in, because I like the idea that there is a movement from another body of work, and a movement from that body of work to jewelry. I like working with non-specialists. I think it makes projects very interesting. To me, this is the story I want to tell, those rare moments when a piece of jewelry is going to be possible for those artists. It's not their specialty. They're not doing this all the time. It remains rare. It's just from time to time. I like that idea. Sharon: Have they come to you and said, "I want to put gems in this piece," or has an artist who's making the jewelry said, "I want to put gems"? Esther: No, very, very rarely because to them, gems are very linked to classic jewelry, to contemporary jewelry, and they don't want to use the same vocabulary. They are more into material and shapes and volumes than in gems. Sharon: Have you ever had the artists come in and describe their work? Do the artists come to the solo shows that you have and describe the work they do? Esther: Yeah, during the opening, of course all artists are present. Or if we make a special appointments, of course. Sharon: So, the artist says, "Yes, I want to make the jewelry for you." What's the next step? Esther: The next step is them finding the good idea. Once they have ideas, we start the conversation and we discuss what's feasible, what's not feasible. We keep a few ideas, and then we go to the goldsmith and we discuss with them what's possible. Slowly it builds up. The first thing is the idea. Sharon: You come to the goldsmith or silversmith to say, "The artist is thinking about doing a loop. Can you do that?" Esther: No, we go to the goldsmith with a prototype or a maquette. The piece is there already. It's not in silver, it's not in gold, but it exists. Sharon: Do they ever look at you in surprise, the goldsmith? Esther: Yes, obviously, but after 12 years, less and less. They're like, "It's going to be very difficult, but it's going to work out." They are less and less surprised. They know me now, and they know the artist. Sharon: A few last stray questions. Did you open in the courtyard where you are? Did you open the gallery where you are? Have you moved locations? Esther: No, I have been here the whole time. Sharon: And what would you say keeps your attention about jewelry, or artist jewelry, after doing it for so long? Esther: I think my motivation and my love is still very strong, and maybe stronger and stronger because the artists themselves have new ideas very often. So, the story continues, and I also invite new artists. I have all these parallel collaborations, so it's very enriching for me. Also, the relationship I have with collectors is very nice and very interesting because I am also building with them their collection. We're all growing up together, and this is what makes it very special. And maybe after 12 years, I'm also doing my job in a better way, with a better understanding of the project and a better understanding of what collectors are expecting. It's still a challenge and it's still a risky business, but I wouldn't do anything else. I wouldn't know what to do. I'm my own boss. I do what I want. I have to carry it all, but it's a great job. I'm very happy with what I do, and being surrounded by all these great artists is fabulous. Also getting that story more well-known and broadening the public for artist jewelry is a fantastic challenge. I love challenges. Sharon: If you love challenges, you picked a good field for a challenge. Esther, thank you so much for being with us today. Esther: You for inviting me, Sharon. Thank you very much. I enjoyed very much talking to you. Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode: How studying and apprenticing abroad helped Ilona push the limits of her work How objects carry memories, and why that can influence someone's desire to buy a vintage piece Why the most important thing a gallerist can do is choose pieces that resonate with them How art jewelry galleries create a channel of communication from artist to wearer to observer Why jewelry artists have more freedom that other types of artists About Ilona Schwippel Ilona Schwippel has run the gallery Viceversa, in Lausanne, Switzerland, with her husband Christian Balmer for 20 years. She holds a bachelor in product design, jewelry and accessories from the High School of Arts and Design (HEAD) in Geneva and a diploma in luxury creations and artistic crafts from the University of Geneva. Since 2017, Ilona has lectured at the University of Applied Science, in Lucerne, in the XS Schmuck department. Additional Resources: Vice Versa Website Vice Versa Instagram Vice Versa Facebook Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript Gallerists have a unique position in the jewelry world as the connectors between artist and wearer—and Ilona Schwippel holds sacred this responsibility. As co-owner of jewelry gallery Viceversa in Lausanne, Switzerland, she is always looking for the pieces that resonate with her and her clients. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why jewelry carries the memories of its previous owners; why jewelry gives artists more freedom than any other medium; and how giving context to a piece can change a customer's perception of it—for better or worse. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. I went on Art Jewelry Forum's trip to Switzerland to find Swiss jewelers that I didn't know about. Art Jewelry Forum has an international trip every year, and they're usually very interesting and very good. There I met Ilona Schwippel and her partner, Christian, who are owners of the gallery Viceversa. Welcome back. If you see somebody who is interested and keeps looking at the piece, they keep coming back and looking at it, let's say, do you then explain what the artist was trying to do? Ilona: If I have the chance, which I think is great and I really appreciate, I tell him the first time, or I tell that person my idea and the context of the piece at the very beginning. It depends on the person sometimes, how open they are at the moment to see what kind of discussion, what kind of dialogue we can have, whether the person wants to hear it or not. This is always very unpredictable. Sharon: Do you think art jewelry tells a deeper story than other kinds of jewelry? Ilona: I think so. Yes, absolutely. I also think that a piece of contemporary jewelry tells a very different story to the observer once its worn. It's a different kind of communication. Sharon: It's interesting. It's probably true that once it's worn, it tells a different story. Do you concentrate on certain artists? Do they have to be known? Are they up-and-comers? Any particular kind of artist? Ilona: We have both. Next spring, for example, we will prepare an exhibition with Karl Fritsch. We've been working with him for many, many years. Maybe it's the third or fourth solo exhibition that we've done with him. It's always incredible how he continues to surprise us by only making rings. This is really incredible. Sharon: Karl Fritsch? Ilona: Karl Fritsch. For instance, sometimes he works with already existing jewelry, and he interferes; he changes the piece in my eyes. He doesn't only change the aspect of the piece by enhancing it or by improving the design in a humoristic way, the way they improve the design of very classical pieces with fantastic design. Some of them have just been turning the piece into something else, and they said it was like improving the piece. With Karl Fritsch, I think he is somewhere else. What I think is really interesting and very touching is that he changes it. For example, he takes an existing ring—each ring has a story. Each ring has its pedigree in terms of ownership. Sometimes you know; sometimes you don't. Some people want to know; some people absolutely don't want to know. What I think is interesting in his work is he takes this ancient piece, for example, and he changes the path of this ring. It doesn't continue its way of living from owner to owner in a straight way. He takes a very sharp, radical turn. All of a sudden, it's not only the piece that changes; it's many things. The definition of the owner changes. I think that's a very interesting part of his work. Sharon: I'm surprised to hear people don't want to hear what it was originally and what it means today. Why wouldn't people want to know? Do you have any idea? Ilona: Maybe they're just more comfortable with something unknown than to know the stories. They would like to wear the piece, but they don't want to carry the story of the piece or the story of the ancient owner with them. I think there is a very strong relationship between the owner and jewelry. Some pieces are really marked by the story of the ancient owner. It's something personal. There's this German-Vietnamese philosopher who is talking about objects. They are a souvenir of people, of situations. That's where he says it's a dramatic difference between data and tangible objects. I think objects really have the capacity to carry on memories, and I can understand that not everybody is comfortable with that. I think this is an incredible quality of jewelry. Sharon: If somebody comes to you and they want to exhibit or have their pieces in the gallery, does it matter to you if nobody has ever heard of them if you like the piece? Ilona: If you like the work, yes. The distinction between pieces of work—as a gallery, we like to build up a long-term relationship with the artists. We love following the work, seeing the evolution of the artist and seeing the new work in relation to the pieces that were there before. If you see only one piece, it's difficult to read, and it's difficult to talk about the universe. I think it's always exciting and important to see the universe, to have a body of work. Not just single pieces, but a body of work that tells a story. Then, if the person is known or unknown, it doesn't matter. It's about the quality and the content of this body of work. Sharon: So, if they want to exhibit in your gallery but they only bring one work or one piece, you tell them to come back and show four or five so you get the connection. Ilona: Yeah, and it's also to know about the artist's aim, about the content of the pieces, to feel the intention of the artist, why he or she did these pieces. Why do these pieces exist? Why was it important to create them? Why do they have to exist? Sharon: Has it changed your mind when they bring one piece and you think, "Oh, well, that's not so great," but then they bring four or five and it's the connection you see? Ilona: Yes, absolutely. You can really see a story and also see it more in depth. With one piece, it's more difficult to see the depth of the intention. If it's only one piece, it's less evident, maybe. Sharon: You operate the gallery with your husband. Do you have a division of labor? Do you look at the pieces and he writes the catalogue? Ilona: A lot of things we do together. This gallery is something really personal. It's also incredible that each gallery you visit is so different from the other. It reflects the passion of each gallerist. I think it's important that Christian and I work together. There are many questions we have to discuss, to talk about the artist, about the pieces and the exhibitions we would like to build up. Inside, we do some tasks separately for sure, but a lot of decisions we have to make together. It's very enriching to have discussions about artists' work that we don't agree on. This is very interesting. Sharon: Can you walk into different galleries and feel a different—I don't know what to call it—an air, a different feeling when you go into different galleries? Some of them are passionate and some are more utilitarian, let's say. Can you tell? Ilona: I think so, yes. I think it really reflects the gallerist who made this choice. I think it's important that you see that. It's not important that you see the difference, but it is important that the choice of the pieces and the works of the artists is something authentic with the gallerist. Sharon: I guess I skipped a question. I wanted to ask why you like art jewelry. Ilona: Good question. I think I'm fascinated with the power that pieces have, the power of this non-personal communication. I think there are two aspects. On the one hand, I am aware as a wearer, so I want to make these pieces on my body communicate to the person in front of me. It's like being a team with this piece of art. We have the same bond; we have the same message to give. On the other hand, as a gallerist, you have a different view of the piece. There, I see more of a connection to the artist, and I leave it open as to whom it will talk to, who is going to fall in love with it. Sometimes it's myself. I think it is the content, and it's something essential in communication. Sharon: Have you seen a piece that you might want to put in your gallery, but you don't wear it yourself? Ilona: Yes and no. Sharon: It just doesn't communicate what you want it to communicate. Ilona: Yes. There are pieces I really love, but I don't feel this connection when I wear it. I guess this just happens. I think this is healthy. Sharon: But some other people might still see a connection. Ilona: Absolutely. Sharon: Have you ever worked in another gallery? Ilona: I did work at one when I was in Lisbon. I worked in the gallery at Artefacto3. At the time, it was Tereza Seabra that ran the gallery. Sharon: Was there a difference in the air or in the feeling of the gallery compared to your gallery? Ilona: It's hard to say because at the time, I didn't have any other experience with galleries, with contemporary jewelry galleries especially. But it was different, and I think that's important. I think that's something very important, these differences. Sharon: When you say contemporary jewelry galleries, it makes me think that in Europe or Switzerland, there are more contemporary jewelry galleries. There are very few in the States. They exist, but there are very few. I wonder if there are more in Europe. I don't know. Would you say that in the time you studied art jewelry, the market has grown in Europe? Ilona: I think so. I think it's also due to the schools. They are very active in communicating. The students are studying the works at the museums that collect, that show the connections, that have exhibitions or design exhibitions where they mix objects and jewelry. I see this as a precious education to make contemporary jewelry become more known by a larger public. Sharon: Are they doing that on purpose? Ilona: I think they choose the pieces because they have to be in the exhibition with the content they want to communicate and the pertinence of the piece. Maybe the side effect is that it is an education, that there is educational value in it, but I don't think this is the first purpose. If we talk about education, it might be a principal purpose when they organize workshops, lectures, guided tours, meeting artists at roundtable discussions, something like that. This is actively finetuned. It keeps the discussion lively and brings people together to talk about these subjects and about this not-very-much-known field. Sharon: When you talk about it, it sounds very exciting. What is it that's kept your attention on art jewelry over the years? Ilona: I think it captures the questions that come from society. If it seems that society is worried about something, they can communicate with the pieces. It's a very lively art. I think it's also something exceptional and precious, the freedom that jewelry artists have. They can really do the piece. Most of them can make the piece from the very first moment to the very last moment. So many are capable of finishing the piece all by themselves, which means during the thinking and creation process, they continue to evaluate. I think this is an enormous freedom, and this freedom also gives them a place for really absurd and surrealist things that you would never dream about in the field of jewelry. Jewelry is performance. It is linked so much to the body; it's linked so much to the lively body, to the vivid communication that is part of the daily performance we do. Sharon: That is very interesting. Ilona, thank you very much for taking the time to talk with us and to let us know about art jewelry in Switzerland. Ilona: I'm very happy that we had the chance to talk and that you were curious about our gallery. We were really happy to talk to you in Switzerland. It was great to feel your enthusiasm and this energy you have. Thank you very much. Sharon: Thank you. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode: What triggered Gabi's obsession with spoons Why the most elementary shapes are the perfect canvas for exploration How Gabi uses wax to create her pieces Why Gabi never polishes the spoons she creates, and why there is beauty in imperfection Why there is no time limit to study and make jewelry About Gabi Veit Gabi Veit is an Italian artist and jewelry designer with a passion for spoons. She lives and works in Bozen/Südtirol/Italia and in Aesch/Zürich/Switzerland. Having grown up in South Tyrol, she creates jewelry that celebrates the rough and jagged shapes and outlines of her home country's rocks and mountains. Her unique spoons surprise the beholder with unusual shapes borrowed from plant life. Additional Resources: Gabi's Website Gabi's Instagram Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: A spoon is one of the most basic objects we have: a line and a circle, designed for everyday use. In this simplicity, jewelry artist Gabi Veit saw a world of possibilities. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she started making spoons; why no two of her spoons are alike, even in a set; and why she is living proof that it's never too late to study jewelry and design. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. Gabi Veit's work is definitely different than any other you will encounter. She makes jewelry, yes, but for the past few years, she has been very taken with spoons. It's for a variety of reasons that I will let her tell you about. Welcome back. Does the museum advertise your work? Do they promote it? Gabi: Yes, they do. It's not only my work in this case. There are 50 other artists who are showing their work. This exhibition is made to show the clients, the people, what's happening now, what artisans and artists are doing at this moment. There are museums for applied art which are doing this. It's a nice, ambient atmosphere there. Sharon: Do you ever feel a little envious of what other people are doing? Do you look at their work and think, "I should try that"? Gabi: It's very interesting. Maybe because I started so late. I started with jewelry when I was 40. When I entered into this exhibition, when I had the possibility to have this exhibition, it was more, "Oh look, what does she do?" I'm in a wonderland when I'm exhibiting with colleagues, and I'm happy to have the opportunity to be part of this community. I'm more happy than envious. No, I'm not envious. I'm not an envious woman, I think. Sharon: You don't seem like you are. You were in advertising and graphic design before this. What made you decide to go into jewelry? Gabi: I always wear jewelry. I always loved jewelry. When I was 26, I was always thinking about doing an apprenticeship in my region, but they said, "No, you are 26. You are too old to do that." I believed I was too old, and I did my work. I also founded a theater in my hometown. I was completely—how can say it—I was most happy with my life. There were so many nice things going on in my life that I somehow forgot this wish. Then this wish came again, and I started giving workshops. I was thinking, "Oh, I need to know more. I need to learn the techniques." So, I went to Florence. I was there for three years at Alchimia to study contemporary jewelry. Sharon: When you say you gave workshops, did you give workshops in design or jewelry? Gabi: I was a student of workshops. Sharon: Oh, O.K. Gabi: Now, I give workshops, but then I was the student. Sharon: I read that in 2016, you gave a workshop in Edinburgh with two other Italians. Gabi: No, this was a symposium. We were invited. Maria Garza, Gigi Mariani and I were invited to go to Edinburgh to meet other artists and to work together for one week. It was an interesting experience for all of us. Then we worked for a year at home, and then we made an exhibition about our experience. Sharon: What was interesting about the experience? What was interesting to you? Gabi: For me, it was very interesting that we went to the sea on the first day together. I noticed all the others were familiar with the waves and the sea. I had a lot of respect for the water, and I was also noticing that the water was bringing something. It was bringing shells and also garbage. You can stay there and the water brings you treasures, but if you grow up in the mountains, treasures are never floating directly on your feet. When you are in the mountains, you have to climb them. When you go down, you have to do it by yourself. I was like, "Oh, wow! There is another way to get inspiration." Sharon: Did you make some spoons from that idea? Gabi: I made spoons out of shells I found there. Sharon: What did they get out of it? What do you think they saw, Gigi Mariani and the other person? Gabi: It was not the first moment, but it was a very intense moment for us Italians that the sea was also bringing refugees and dead refugees. Gigi and Maria Garza were dealing with these arguments, with these dead bodies and with these people who have the hope to get a better life that sometimes die in the sea. That was their way to look at the sea in this moment. Sharon: You also make bowls. Two bowls of jewelry, I mean. Gabi: Yeah. Sharon: Do your bowls ever go with the spoons? Do you make a set? Gabi: I've never made a set until now. They are good to combine, but I never did it as a combination from the moment I started. Sharon: Has anybody that collects your things ever commissioned you and said, "I want five spoons and six bowls," like a dinner set? Gabi: No, that would be so nice. Please, if I received that, I would like to do that. Sharon: You would do it? Gabi: Yes, sure. That's very interesting. Maybe I can tell the person that the pieces I make are not always the same. If you say, "I want to have 12 spoons," they are not completely the same. Maybe they are a family, but like in a family, there are different characters. My work is all about unique pieces and not multiples. Sharon: Do you ever tell people when they say, "What should I do with this? Do you hang it around your neck or a belt or something?" Do they hang it on a wall? Gabi: Yes, there are a lot of people who say, "Oh, it's so nice, this spoon. It could be a brooch." Then I say, "No, sorry, that's not a brooch, it's a spoon. If you want to have this as a brooch, I would make it again, not in a spoony way, but in a brooch way. So, it becomes a real brooch, not only an object with—" Sharon: A pin or something. Gabi: Yeah. The spoon is born as a spoon. A spoon is a spoon is a spoon. There are people who put my spoons on the table only to look at them, but also on the wall. That happens. Sharon: Do you have to hold yourself back if you think, "Well, I should polish it more." A lot of your stuff is oxidized or it's rough. Do you think, "I should polish it to make it shine"? Gabi: I never polish. I really don't polish, never, never. I know that in tableware, traditional spoons are shiny. But when they are made out of silver or sterling silver, they never could stay this shiny because they will oxidize anyhow. It's impossible to get silver always in the same color and always shiny. I don't want to go against the material. I like this Japanese idea of beauty, wabi-sabi, where the beauty is not made out of a perfect thing, but it's made when an object is used, when an object maybe has an error, when an object oxidizes or has a part which is more shiny on one side. I really like this way to treat my work. Sharon: Did you study in Japan? Gabi: No. I would like to go to Japan. Sharon: I know you've studied at different places. Where else have you studied besides Switzerland and Italy? Gabi: I never studied in Switzerland. I studied graphic design in Austria. I studied graphic design also in Venice, in Italy, and then in Florence. I was not in other countries. In Germany, I did some workshops, but no other studies. Sharon: When people ask you to do workshops, do they want you to show how to do the spoons? Gabi: They are interested in working with wax, which I show them. There are so many different ways to treat wax. When the outcome is a spoon, I'm happy, but when the outcome is—I don't know—a necklace part, a ring or an object, that's also O.K. The participants of my workshop come with different ideas, and this is what I like. Maybe they are intrigued by my spoons or by my jewelry pieces, but it's about their language and not about my language. Sharon: Have you ever inspired somebody who has been told they were too old to do it, and then they went on and did it anyway because you went against the grain? Do you ever meet anybody who was told they're too old to change fields—or not to change fields, but to do this and you've inspired them? You've said, "No, that's not true." Gabi: I always say to everyone, "It's not true." I think you can do everything when you want. It doesn't need to be radical. It can be an hour a day or an hour a week. You can achieve change or achieve things in many different ways. Sharon: Why do you say that a spoon is a subject of experimentation and interaction? You've said that. Why is that? Gabi: For me, the spoon is a big field of experimentation. There are moments when I'm having a hike or a walk and I see a spoon everywhere. Somehow, a tree is a spoon formally. It's about my imagination and what I can see in whatever I watch. I also think the spoon theme is not finished. It never finishes because there are so many possibilities. Maybe that could be an explanation. Then, for me, spoons are needed for cooking and scooping and eating. Eating in itself is an interaction and communication. I think the best way to talk to each other is to sit around the table and eat together. I'm sure there is at least one spoon. Sharon: That's true. What's the largest? Have you ever made a spoon for a tureen, something large? Gabi: I've made very small pieces, like three centimeters, and also very big ones like, 30 centimeters. Sharon: What was your attraction initially to the spoon you were designing and advertising? What did you see in the spoon? Gabi: I think it's a very simple tool. Maybe it's one of our first tools that humankind uses. Somehow, our hand is the bowl and our arm is the handle. We have our own spoons with us, but when it's too hot or too cold, we need a tool. I think from the beginning, people did their own tools, their own spoons. This is so primary, so easy, so simple, which I love very much. Sharon: Is that what keeps you going? That the spoon, the art jewelry, is never finished? You use a different spoon for everything. Gabi: Yeah, I think so. I would never do a fork, and I would never do a knife. That's not interesting for me. The spoon somehow is more interesting. Sharon: That's interesting. I didn't even think of a different tool for you. Would a fork be too difficult? Gabi: I would find a way to do it, but I'm not interested. I think this simple form attracts me much more than the spikey tree or the five spikes of a fork. I don't know. It's not so inspiring for me. Sharon: Gabi, thank you for being here today and for explaining. It's a whole table of spoons, and they're really unusual. I really appreciate your being here today. Gabi: Thank you very much. Sharon: Thank you. Well will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode: How Esther's experiences in China and India continue to influence her work today Why different materials have different meanings, and how that impacts the wearer Why the relationship between a jewelry artist and a customer is particularly special and intimate How wearing jewelry influences the way we move through the world The most important qualities a jewelry teacher should have About Esther Brinkmann Esther Brinkmann is an independent jewelry maker living and working in Switzerland. Her work has been exhibited in galleries throughout the world and is held in the collections of the National Museum of Switzerland, Musée des Arts Décoratifs in Paris, Museo Internazionale delle Arti Applicate Oggi (MIAAO) in Torino, and the V&A in London. She established the Haute École d'Art et de Design (HEAD) in Geneva, the first jewelry education program of its kind in the country. Additional Resources: Esther's Website Esther's Instagram Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Transcript: Jewelry artist Esther Brinkmann makes her rings with intention, considering everything from the meaning of the material used to the way the shape of the ring will change how the wearer moves their hands. She has passed this perspective down to hundreds of students at the Haute École d'Art et de Design (HEAD), the jewelry program she founded in Geneva. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how living in China and India made her question her identity and influenced her work; why many of her rings are designed to fit different sized hands; and what makes the relationship between artist and wearer so special. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. I recently went to Switzerland with Art Jewelry Forum. One of the afternoons we had was at Esther Brinkmann's home. It was a very memorable lunch and afternoon. We got to see her studio, and on top of that, we had an unforgettable luncheon cooked by her husband, Warner. Welcome back. Do you think you were taken by the design, the motifs and everything, because you're a designer? For instance, would I be taken by it? Esther: You would be marveled by all these beautiful things, and you would love to buy these things, but maybe you would not have the desire to do your own designs, whereas I immediately got the desire to introduce these new inspirations. I was really stimulated to introduce these things in my own designs and to evolve to develop new ideas. Sharon: For those of us that were interested in the enamel rings, I think you said we had to be careful if we dropped them or banged them. They were like glass. Esther: Yeah, enamel is a glass-like material. It certainly it is not the best idea to make rings with enamel, but I could not resist. As I love rings, I just had to do a few of those rings. This was a period when I did realize maybe 20 of those rings, but they are difficult to sell because they are difficult to wear. You have deal with them very carefully. Sharon: What other jewelry did you make while you were there? Esther: In India, besides these enamel rings, besides this collaboration, I also started to do pieces with some stones. I discovered, for instance, the polki diamond in India. You can find it only in India. It's a diamond; let's say it is not the best quality. It's a piece of diamond with many, many cracks. They split it into very thin plates, very roughly faceted, not as we have the idea of a diamond with many, many facets. It is a very flat stone with a lot of cracks. It looks like broken ice or something like that. I love this kind of diamond. I started to make rings with that. I also started to purchase a number of not very precious stones, like peridots or topaz, etc. I started to introduce stones as a color element in rings especially. Sharon: They call them polki diamonds? How would you spell that? Esther: P-O-L-K-I. This might be the Hindi word for this specific diamond, but when you put it on Google, you can find it. Sharon: That's interesting. From what you're describing, it's what we consider Indian diamonds. Along with the monograph that was put out by Arnoldsche for some of your exhibits, you also have a book that just came out about your jewelry. Esther: Yes. Sharon: A lot of it describes jewelry provoking feelings or provoking people. Could you talk about that a little? How do you see it provoking people? Esther: I think this is the main reason why I am so interested in jewelry, because jewelry is something I create. I make a piece that has a relationship to a body, to a person. I don't know who the person wearing my piece will be. That depends on my practice. I work with galleries, but I create a piece with the idea that another person will choose it, and this person will wear it. This person will be like an ambassador of what I have created. This person will adopt what I have created for herself. She or he will wear it and show it, will translate it to others around her or him. That is a very special thing, a very special relationship between an artist and a customer or a collector. When you buy a sculpture, the sculpture will have a relationship to a space, to your garden or your living room, but a piece of jewelry is something very intimate. When a collector buys something I have created, it's not mine anymore. I am absolutely comfortable and very at ease with this idea, to give this away. What I know and what makes it so rich is that this person will adopt something and use it as an intimate mirror of her thoughts, of her emotions, of her mind, of her attitude. I think this is a very special thing. The piece of jewelry influences our gestures, especially the big rings. They influence our gestures. They influence our body language. We experience our body in a different way when we wear a piece of jewelry. Sharon: Any piece or are you talking about larger, significant pieces? Esther: No, any piece, any. I'm talking now about any piece. Sharon: Oh, wow! That's something to think about. You mentioned that you make the rings in gold and jade and silver. Do they have different meanings, the different materials? Esther: Absolutely. I think any material has its own meaning. Of course, gold, silver and jade are so-called precious materials. They are considered by everybody as precious. I like them not because they are considered precious worldwide, but I like to work with them because of other qualities. For instance, gold and silver are very plastic materials. You can hammer volumes out of a flat sheet of gold or silver. You cannot do this with a simple hammer and iron, for instance, but gold and silver have these plastic qualities. Then, of course, the color is a very important aspect. The weight of silver is very tender. Yellow gold is much stronger. I also know that silver is linked in many, many cultures to the moon and the feminine, and gold is linked to the sun and to the male aspect in us. Whether we know it or not, it is like an ancestral knowing that is within us and that we can feel. That's also why different people are attracted by different materials. Not everybody likes to wear gold. Not everybody is able to have a big ring made of gold because it's a statement you make. Sharon: Do you think you're influenced in these thoughts by your living abroad or living in different cultures? Esther: I think so, yes. Of course, I learned a lot. For instance, jade has a strong symbolic meaning in China and for the Chinese culture. It's a very strong material, which we may not understand immediately, only if we learn about it. I think living in other areas of the world, you become sensitive to how different materials are used. As a person who likes to transform material into something, into an object, or to transform very simple materials like a thread or a string into something precious, into something which has a specific character, it gives you another relationship to different materials. I choose my materials very consciously by what I want to transmit as a feeling. Sharon: Would you call yourself a jeweler? Esther: Yes, absolutely. I'm a jewelry maker, yes. Sharon: I guess a jewelry maker is different than a jeweler. I have my own understanding of what a jeweler is. You're a jewelry maker. Esther: I have to say English is not my language. I might not make the difference between jeweler and jewelry maker. I know the difference between a jewelry maker and a designer. I'm not a designer because I make things myself. I create and I make. I realize things myself. So, I'm not a designer. I don't consider myself a designer. Sharon: What possessed you to start a whole department in Geneva, a jewelry department at the university there? Esther: That was a very happy, glad circumstance. It was in the beginning of 1980. Switzerland joined the European Space for Higher Education. Art schools and schools for applied arts were things then, not universities. They had no universities for art. In the beginning of 1980, we joined the European Space for Higher Education. At the school where I studied between 1974 and 1978, and where I started to teach in 1982, we, the teachers, were asked to make a proposal for a new education program. At that time, I was already very active as an independent jewelry maker. I could participate in international exhibitions, and I absolutely wanted to open a department for experimental and art jewelry in Geneva because we didn't have that. We had this excellent program for luxury jewelry. That is what I learned. For four years, I had this education for luxury jewelry, and I thought it was the time in Switzerland, and especially in the French-speaking part of Switzerland. In this very luxurious environment, we needed something breaking this up. This is another idea of what luxury can be. It's not only luxury and precious metals and very expensive stones; it can be something very different. That is the environment where I could start this jewelry design department at the school in Geneva, which is now called the School for Applied Arts, which has the same status as a university. Sharon: As a university, did you first study basic university courses? Esther: I was never in a university. I just knew them from my colleagues I met when we exhibited. I knew the Rietveld Academy. I knew the RCA in London. I knew Otto Künzli in Munich. I had this dream of doing something like that in Geneva, and I was given the opportunity and the confidence to start and create this department. It was a very lucky situation. I am a very lucky person in general. Sharon: Well, you must be a good teacher because there are people all over that I met who said, "Oh, I studied with Esther Brinkmann." You must be a good teacher. They wouldn't have chosen this, would they? Esther: I'm very much able to transmit my passion. I'm also able to support young people to find their own way, to express ideas, to find their own materials and, maybe the most important, to find the energy to develop and to not give up, to stay with an idea and to follow your intuition, to give you the skills and the force to realize something until satisfaction. This is a very, very important thing. Everybody has ideas; everybody can have excellent ideas, but you have to have the energy and the endurance to follow your way and follow your idea until materializing something to achieve a piece. That is something you need support for. I think that is a very important thing the teacher has to give, to transmit to her students. Sharon: Was there a competition or was there stress in choosing you? Were they going to choose somebody for this position? Esther: No, there was nobody. There were different people to propose different programs. I had a colleague who also proposed a program for watch design. We had a very small department for watch design open at that time, but nothing in the field of creative jewelry. Sharon: Creative jewelry being contemporary too? Esther: Yes, being contemporary jewelry. Sharon: Tell us about the Magpies. We'll finish with that. What about the Magpies? Esther: I met the Magpies more or less at the same period. I met Theresa, who was the founder of this club called the Magpies. It was a small group of friends, of women. They were just fond of jewelry, although not of contemporary jewelry at that time. Two or three of them were involved in archaeology. They were fond of tribal jewelry, of jewelry from the Middle East. They were just interested in jewelry. When I met them, I could introduce them to contemporary jewelry. Since then, they were very supportive of my students as a group of women who were just enthusiastic and following what we were doing and also, of course, buying work, which is always very important. That's how we kept going in parallel together until now. What happened is that I would say in the last 15 years, this group has become less and less active because the women are getting elderly. They stopped organizing activities. Only recently a group of younger people are starting this group of collectors again and trying to organize activities around this topic. It depends always on people and privileged relationships that we can have with collectors, but also galleries. It's the same with students. People can stimulate each other to excellence, to create things and to do activities which they would not do when they are alone. Sharon: Do you see that happening with Magpies? Do these stimulate? Esther: The fact that we were friends and that I could include them in our activities at the department, I think that was a very stimulating period of time for them. Somehow with my successors, it did not happen in that same way. But it seems that now, with the new generation at the school in Geneva, they are trying again to create this link and this relationship with collectors. They might succeed. I think so. It's about transmitting your passion, and it's about exchanging ideas. It's about generosity from one part, and the other that makes things can make things happen. Sharon: You certainly have made things happen. Thank you for being with us today. I greatly, greatly appreciate it. Esther: Thank you for having me, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about all this. Thanks. Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.