About this episode

This episode explores how Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists and his passion for French wine influenced the Court's interpretation of the Religion Clause.

Thomas Jefferson’s 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptists—better known for its reference to a “wall of separation” between church and state—was little remembered until Chief Justice Morrison Waite revived it in Reynolds v. United States (1879). With the help of historian George Bancroft, Waite transformed Jefferson’s passing metaphor into a constitutional principle, despite Jefferson’s limited role in drafting the First Amendment. In this episode of Legal Spirits , historians Don and Lisa Drakeman join Center Director Mark Movsesian to explore how Jefferson’s words, and even his passion for French wine, helped shape the Court’s Religion Clause jurisprudence—and to consider what lessons today’s Justices should draw about the risks of using history in constitutional interpretation. Listen in! The post Legal Spirits 071: Jefferson, Wine, and the Wall of Separation appeared first on LAW AND RELIGION FORUM .

People in this episode

Host: Mark Movsesian

Guests: Lisa Drakeman, Don Drakeman

Topics covered

• constitutional interpretation
• Religion Clause jurisprudence
• history
• Thomas Jefferson
• church and state

Keywords

• Danbury Baptists
• Morrison Waite
• Reynolds v. United States
• George Bancroft

Mentioned in this episode

Products: French wine

Books & works: Legal Spirits, Legal Spirits 071

Places: United States

More episodes of Legal Spirits

• Legal Spirits 077: Dignity in Judgment · April 22, 2026 · 31 min
• Legal Spirits 076: A Short Take on Chiles v. Salazar · April 2, 2026
• Legal Spirits 075: A Short Take on the Louisiana 10 Commandments Case · March 4, 2026 · 6 min
• Legal Spirits 074: Religion and the State in Japan · February 10, 2026 · 33 min
• Legal Spirits 073: A Short Take on the Minnesota Church Protest · January 27, 2026 · 6 min
• Legal Spirits 072: Religion at the “Constitutional Court of Europe” · January 20, 2026

Explore listener stats, chart rankings, contacts and more on the Legal Spirits podcast page.