Let's Think Digital

This is the final episode of the Let's Think Digital podcast in its current form. I've been thinking a lot about transitions recently. Last month, I had the honour of being asked to serve as Vice President of Learning and Leadership at the Institute of Governance. The IOG is a not-for-profit, non-partisan organization that I’ve worked with for a number of years that does important work to advance good public governance. Its mission is needed now more than ever as governments are under increased expectations to modernize and evolve to meet the moment. I'm excited to take on this challenge and bring my work from Think Digital under IOG's banner.With this change, it seemed like the right time to think about the future of this podcast as well. It has been a really amazing experience hosting the podcast these past three seasons and I'm very proud of what we've been able to produce and share with our broader community through it. The goal was always to help spark greater awareness and more conversations about what it means to have a modern, effective government in a digital world. I feel like we've been able to help move this discussion forward. I'm also heartened that increasingly others are raising these issues and adding their voices to the mix. However for me personally, this felt like the right time to bring this particular iteration of the podcast to a close for now.So on this final episode, I wanted to share my thoughts about transitions. Not just for me personally, but also about the transition that institutions and society are facing in this current moment of uncertainty and change we are all in. And of course, I wanted to take the time to thank all of you for joining us on this journey over the last few years. It's been an absolute joy and pleasure to bring you these conversations and I'm so grateful for our growing audience of thousands of people from across Canada and dozens of countries around the world. Please stay subscribed and engaged, as I do hope that we will continue to be able to bring you content and perspective from time to time from myself and our colleagues in the digital government ecosystem.Finally my sincere thanks to our team and everyone who has contributed to building and producing Let's Think Digital over the past few years. In particular I want to thank our producer (and my friend) Wayne Chu, as without his hard work and dedication none of this would have happened.My sincerest thanks again, and as always, let's keep thinking digital!-Ryan Androsoff, Host of Let's Think DigitalWatch on YouTubehttps://youtu.be/bSuHinHC4Ps?si=Apa0EuQcQudH-isbRelated LinksRyan on CBC Radio's The Current with Matt Galloway talking about Estonia's digital transformation and lessons for CanadaRyan on Derek Alton's Civic Punks talking about why Canada has declined in international rankings around digital governmentRyan on the GovMaker podcast with Nick Scott and Jason Pearman talking about his career journey and advice on how to innovate in governmentKathryn May's The Functionary newsletter

Data is the lifeblood of any organization, including government. And in today’s digital age, there are very real questions about whether governments are capable of managing the enormous amount of data that is now collected. We’re no longer in an era where data was created at human scale with pen and paper on a government form. Instead, governments are increasingly being flooded with an avalanche of digital data from a huge number of sources. And there are high expectations that governments are able to use these data points to make better decisions, that data is managed responsibility, and that the people in government have the ability to consume all of this data in an increasingly complex world.Not only that, but governments now need to be prepared for the rapid evolution of artificial intelligence and the increasing incorporation of machine learning models,  semantic analysis, and algorithmic decision-making applications in programs and service delivery. These are technologies built on big data, and governments need to be prepared to leverage them in the public interest.So this week, we’re talking to three people (and one Artificial Intelligence!) who have been thinking deeply about the policy and capacity challenges that governments need to get ahead of when it comes to their data posture.Our first conversation is with Maddy Dwyer, a Policy Analyst from the Center for Democracy and Technology. Maddy has been conducting research on the tension between leveraging data to improve the lives of citizens, including those from marginalized communities, and the dangers if we don’t do this responsibility. This conversation took place last November on the conference floor at FWD50 in Ottawa.The second conversation is with Anna Wong, a Director at the Government of Canada's Treasury Board Secretariat, and Trevor Banks, Manager of Digital Organisational Design in the same team. They have been working on efforts to support organizational change across the Federal government to establish clear accountabilities and responsibilities for Chief Data Officers and other senior digital and data leaders across the public service to help them manage the quickly rising expectations of government in the age of AI.And, as a fun little experiment, our third conversation is directly with what is perhaps the most famous AI model in the world these days: OpenAI's ChatGPT. Using ChatGPT's voice input/output feature we ask it what it thinks about all of these issues around data and AI in government we're hearing about. Ryan also asks it his favourite hard-hitting AI question: does it think it is smarter than his cats?Watch on YouTubehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgB7KcmXaZARelated LinksMaddy Dwyer's research at the Center for Democracy and Technology2023-2026 Data Strategy for the Federal Public ServiceThe Evolving Role of the Chief Data Officer, report by the Institute on GovernanceChapters00:00 Introduction03:02 Maddy Dwyer 20:54 Anna Wong and Trevor Banks46:36 Interview with ChatGPT1:01:37 Conclusion

As much as we talk on this podcast about transforming and modernizing governments and bureaucracies, we can’t ignore the role of the private sector which is often working in very embedded ways with government when it comes to all things digital. Whether it’s the role of private tech firms and consultants and their complex and sometimes contested relationship with governments, or the impact of the economic, technological, and even the growing diplomatic power of big tech firms like Google, Facebook, Microsoft or Amazon, there is an increasing level of skepticism about the role that tech companies are playing, their power and influence in society, and lingering questions about if we’ve struck the right balance.On this episode, we talk to Dr. Alexis Wichowski, who has written a book about these issues called "The Information Trade: How Big Tech Conquers Countries, Challenges Our Rights, and Transforms Our World." In the book, she talks about the metamorphosis of big tech from simply companies with market power to entities that can mimic or act like states in their own right.Dr. Wichowski is a Professor of Practice at Columbia University, where she teaches the next generation of leaders about the intersections of technology and public service. Before that, she served as the Deputy CTO for the City of New York, Associate Commissioner for NYC's Department of Veterans' Services, and various roles within the US Department of State and the US Mission to the United Nations. In our wide-ranging conversation, held at the FWD50 conference in Ottawa last November, we spoke about the capacity of bureaucracies to drive digital transformation, the competencies needed in government to thrive in the digital era, and how governments can adapt to the growing power of big tech in society.Watch on YouTubehttps://youtu.be/5dPbg4GogCQ?si=fKLIlVOAcTG8bEYBRelated LinksThe Information Trade: How Big Tech Conquers Countries, Challenges Our Rights, and Transforms Our WorldAlexis Wichowski's WebsiteDr. Alexis Wichowski's Research Page at Columbia UniversityChapters00:00 Introduction03:04 Alexis Wichowski10:25 Teaching the Next Generation of Leaders15:35 The Power of Big Tech on our Lives22:03 Big Tech and Diplomatic Power28:18 Technology Consultants

Follow the digital government space long enough and you will hear about Estonia. Despite being a small country of 1.4 million people with an overall economy that by total size is only 101st in the world, it is a powerhouse in digital government services. In the most recent United Nations e-government ranking, Estonia ranks 2nd in the world, and has been in the top 10 for many years. So what is it about Estonia that has allowed it to leapfrog into being a global digital government leader? On this episode we’re going to explore this question with those who have been on the front lines of Estonia’s digital government revolution.We’re speaking to Estonian Minister of Justice and Digital Affairs Liisa-Ly Pakosta who was recently appointed into that role in July of this year. She has an interesting mandate as both the digital government lead for Estonia as well as leading the Justice portfolio. We also spoke to Siim Sikkut, who was the CIO of the Estonian government between 2017 and 2022 and was one of those responsible for the development of Estonia’s e-residency program in his prior role as an advisor on digital government to the Estonian Prime Minister.And we also heard from Ville Sirviö, CEO of the Nordic Institute for Interoperability Solutions, the non-profit that leads development of one of the core pieces of digital infrastructure in Estonia, the X-Road.You can also find the full, uncut interviews with Minister Pakosta, Siim, and Ville on our Let's Think Digital YouTube channel. This is the first of two episodes on the Estonia digital experience. Watch out for our next episode where we delve deep into the topic of trust as a key ingredient for modernizing government. Watch on YouTubehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ9Tl4c-uUoRelated LinksMinister of Justice and Digital Affairs Liisa-Ly PakostaDigital NationNordic Institute for Interoperability Solutions“There is no blockchain technology in X-Road”, blog post from NIISE-Estonia“How it all began? From Tiger Leap to digital society”, Education EstoniaChapters00:00 Welcome and introductions03:17 Liisa-Ly Pakosta and the Estonian experience07:25 Siim Sikkut and e-residency20:31 Ville Serviö and X-Road26:13 Getting past bureaucratic and political blockers37:25 Improving the foundations50:14 Conclusion

Live on location from the FWD50 conference! In the most recent United Nations e-government rankings Canada has dropped from a high of #3 in 2010 down to #47. We are stalled out while other countries pass us by. There is a real question from many in public service about whether senior leaders have the necessary digital era competencies to get us back to the top of the rankings again. That's why the team at Think Digital ran a workshop at this year's FWD50 conference called "What I Wish My Boss Knew About Digital" to spark discussion and reflection on what it will take to build up the digital competencies of the public service.On today's episode, Ryan kicks-off the conversation with this year's FWD50 hosts, Alistair Croll and Hillary Hartley, about what they were hearing on the conference floor. They talk about how Canada's decline in global e-government rankings is a pervasive theme for participants, and also the importance of events like FWD50 to reenergize those working to spark change. Ryan then has a conversation with Meghan and Nick from the Think Digital team for a debrief on what they heard at the workshop, including the continued importance of getting senior leaders to understand foundational aspects of the technologies that impact so much of our lives in today's world. Watch on YouTubehttps://youtu.be/ioolbJQkAoERelated LinksFWD50 ConferenceWhat I Wish My Boss Knew About DigitalChapters00:00 Alistair Croll and Hillary Hartley from FWD5005:46 Themes at FWD5011:43 Workshop reflections from Meghan and Nick13:44 How knowledgeable are public service leaders?17:00 What did you wish your boss knew?24:32 Importance of curiosity32:37 The path forward41:51 Final workshop reflections

Let's Think Digital is back for Season Three! We've heard from experts and leaders in digital modernization about how new technologies have the potential to redefine the way government works in the modern era. From new technologies like artificial intelligence and virtual reality to policy issues like procurement and incentivizing innovation.And we talked about how it seems like we're stuck in the mud when it comes to digital government in Canada. There's a reason why we've fallen from third in the United Nations global e-government ranking to 47th. We heard about projects stalling, innovation labs shuttered, and low morale and burnout all across the public sector.So on this, our third season of Let's Think Digital, we're going to talk about how we get unstuck. How do we get past the seemingly intractable bureaucracy? And what does success really look like? Season Three of Let's Think Digital. Coming out later this Fall. Find us wherever you get your podcasts, on YouTube, or at: letsthinkdigital.ca

A few weeks ago, I got a late night message on our team’s Slack that made me do a double-take and was - to be frank - a real shock. It was a link to a Reddit thread that was titled “Ontario Digital Service is Officially Dead.”ODS had a simple but ambitious mission: transform Ontario’s government services and practices for the digital age. It was led by Hillary Hartley, a veteran of digital transformation efforts like 18F in the United States Federal Government, who took on the role of not just leading ODS but serving as the first Chief Digital and Data Officer for the Ontario Government.ODS did groundbreaking work for government: New digital service standards and legislation, building user research labs, and creating really great apps and digital tools. But ODS was about more than just digital products. It was just as much about people. Passionate public servants driven by the belief that interacting with government should be easy and, in Hillary’s words, delightful.So it came as a shock when I found out that the Ontario Digital Service was being shut down. Not with a bang, but quietly and without fanfare via an internal memo informing staff that ODS was being disbanded. There has been little public discussion on what ODS’ contribution to the Ontario government has been, nor what this decision might mean for other government digital teams or the digital government movement more broadly.On this episode of the podcast, we tell the story of the ODS over the past 7 years, and what it means now that it has ended, from those who were there at the beginning. We hear from Hillary Hartley about leading the ODS as Ontario's first Chief Digital Officer. We also hear from Karim Bardeesy who was Director of Policy and Deputy Principal Secretary for Premiere Kathleen Wynne when ODS was first being conceptualized. Tanya Coyle, was a long time public servant in Ontario who became one of the co-founders of this new digital startup team in the heart of the Ontario government. And Honey Dacanay was part of the founding team of ODS when it was still what we sometimes call in the tech world a “two-pizza team”.Related LinksOntario Digital Service is officially dead (Reddit)Ontario government disbands remnants of Ontario Digital Service by David Reevely, The LogicFirst blogpost by the team that set-up ODSByte-Sized Progress: Assessing Digital Transformation in the Government of Canada, The DaisOntario Digital ServiceWatch on YouTubehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-nZ3G14zyUChapters00:04 Introduction03:11 Hillary Hartley joins the ODS04:33 The role of political leadership11:50 Accomplishments of the ODS21:11 What does the disbanding mean?28:14 Hillary reflects on the end of ODS34:22 Conclusion

If you haven’t heard of FWD50, you should! It’s one of the premiere conferences on digital modernization in government and exists to help answer one vital question: How do we use technology to make society better for all? Many of this season’s podcast conversations were recorded on location at the conference in Ottawa last November.On this episode of Let’s Think Digital you are going to get an opportunity to hear directly from some of the participants in last year’s conference. We had set-up a Speakers’ Corner booth where we invited anyone at FWD50 who wanted to share their views on what their hope for the future of digital government is and what they think is stopping us from getting there.We kick-off this episode with a wonderful conversation with two of the key founders and organizers of FWD50, Alistair Croll and Rebecca Croll. They talk about what it's like to organize the conference, highlights from the 2023 event, and give us a sneak peek of what they have in store for the 2024 edition and why you should go.Make sure to fill out the 2024 FWD50 content survey and help shape the agenda!Learn more about FWD50 at: https://www.fwd50.com Finally a big thanks to Amy Kirtay, Andy Best, Amanda Bernardo, Liz Christie, Charles Finley, Dea De Jarisco, Roy Nader, Derek Alton, Urooj Qureshi, Pascale Elvas, James Duncan, Jeff Outram, and Lewis Eisen for appearing on the podcast as part of our Speakers' Corner segment!Watch on YouTubehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlB3ujyh6EChapters00:04 Introduction01:27 Alistair Croll and Rebecca Croll30:50 Who are you and why are you at FWD50?33:23 What is your vision for government in 2030?36:55 What are the barriers to get there?40:58 Conclusion

We want government to be innovative and not be left behind in the digital revolution. But this comes up against the reality of the structures, incentives, and culture of most public sector organizations that resist change. As a result, and as we’ve been talking about on this podcast, our efforts to push forward digital transformation and modernize the business of government seems to be stuck in the mud as of late. So for the dedicated community of those in and adjacent to the public service who believe in the potential of doing things in a different way, it can at times feel a bit lonely. As someone who has worked both in the political system and the public service, I know how important clear political leadership is to support these efforts. The good news is that there are those in positions of power and influence who also believe in this vision of modern government.Our guest this week is one of them.Senator Colin Deacon is an independent Senator for Nova Scotia, appointed in June 2018. He’s made Digital Government one of his focus areas in the Senate and is one of the founders and co-chairs of the Caucus Group on Emerging Technology, a multi-party initiative to help Parliamentarians better understand how technology is impacting policy issues. He is a strong advocate for working across party-lines, and with entrepreneurs, researchers and social innovators to build a more innovative digital economy in Canada.Watch on YouTubehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZGr0lZ0asYRelated LinksAbout the Diia App in Ukraine (Wikipedia)Parliamentary Budget Office Report: Overview of the Government’s Digital Service TransformationParliamentary Caucus on Emerging TechnologySenator Colin Deacon's WebsiteChapters00:05 Introduction03:06 Interview with Senator Colin Deacon05:23 The Challenges of Implementing Digital Changes in Government10:41 The Need for Modernizing Government Operations23:40 International Examples of Digital Transformation: Ukraine25:35 The Importance of Leadership in Digital Transformation25:52 Rethinking Procurement for Digital Solutions35:15 The Emerging Technology Caucus Group41:02 Closing Remarks

You've probably seen any number of stories about how some founder in Silicon Valley says their startup can tackle a big societal problem better and cheaper than the public sector because government just can't do anything right. Or maybe you've heard about a public sector executive immediately dismissing an idea that came from the private sector on how to do things differently because government's unique and this is how it's always been done.These scenarios speak to larger tensions and misconceptions between the private and public sector. But if there's one thing that the pandemic and the resulting sudden need for the deployment of impactful digital tools taught us is that we don't have to accept business as usual as the only way to solve problems and deliver services.This week we're talking about what you can accomplish when you harness tech, talent and modern approaches to digital service delivery in the public sector. Joining us to talk about this is Hillary Hartley, CEO of US Digital Response. USDR was founded in 2020 to pair volunteer tech talent with governments to create critical digital tools needed to respond to the COVID-19 crisis. Today, US Digital Response has grown into a community of over 8000 pro bono digital specialists who have partnered with almost 300 different government and nonprofit organizations across the United States on projects that directly impact communities. Prior to her role at USDR, she was head of the Ontario Digital Service, which she led in conjunction with her deputy minister level position of Chief Digital and Data Officer for the Ontario government. And before that, Hillary was the deputy executive director of 18F, a digital services agency in the US federal government that she helped to create back when she was a Presidential Innovation Fellow in 2013. Hillary is a great example of someone who thought she was headed to a long term career in Silicon Valley, found herself in a public sector role, and then fell in love with the impact that she could make in government.Related LinksUS Digital ResponseCode for CanadaWatch on YouTubehttps://youtube.com/watch?v=o9QD4bfPP64

Can government do the things that it says it is going to do? One of the hardest things that public servants have to do is implement and it gets to the heart of a state's capacity to deliver. In the digital era, that means being able to deliver digitally. And when we think about state capacity in this context, it often seems that we find our institutions coming up short.State capacity is something that this week's guest has thought a lot about. Jennifer Pahlka is a leading figure in the digital government movement in the United States, and recently authored a new book, "Recoding America: Why Government is Failing in the Digital Age and How We Can Do Better." (See below on how to enter a draw for a free copy!)Jennifer served as Deputy Chief Technology Officer for the US Government under President Obama’s Administration where she helped to create the United States Digital Service. She is also the founder and former executive director of Code for America which she led for 10 years. More recently she co-founded and is Chair of the Board of Directors for the United States Digital Response, which was a new organization that was set up to help governments respond to the COVID-19 crisis through mobilizing volunteer tech talent. She spoke to Ryan at the FWD50 Conference in November about why governments seem to find themselves in a crisis of implementation and delivery regardless of partisan stripe. They also talk about ways to get unstuck, and stay motivated, including a really heartwarming end to the interview where Jennifer talks about what to do when we are feeling demoralized and that change is never going to come.  Enter a draw to win a free copy of Recoding America!If you'd like to get a copy of Recoding America, sign up to the Think Digital newsletter by December 22, 2023 at 11:59pm ET and you'll be entered into a draw to receive a free copy! Anyone who is signed up to the newsletter by the deadline is eligible. Go to letsthinkdigital.ca to sign up!Watch the Episode on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuTzJ7LtiiYChapters 00:04 Introduction and Welcome03:15 Interview with Jennifer Pahlka05:20 The Importance of State Capacity in Government06:24 Policy vs. Implementation09:38 Key Takeaways from Recoding America15:36 The Role of Political Leadership24:20 Are Our Systems of Democratic Governance Still Fit for Purpose?28:23 Commonalities Across Jurisdictions32:19 The Role of Civic Tech in Government37:41 Don't Give Up38:55 Closing Remarks and Book Giveaway Announcement

On June 16, we had a special livestream to celebrate the conclusion of Season 1 of Let's Think Digital! Listen to the Think Digital team to talk about how social media has been changing our world, the future of work, and reflections on the previous episodes. We also took some audience Q&A.Thanks to Mike Kujawski, Rebecca Hollett, Mel Han, Aislinn Bornais, Meghan Hellstern, Jen Schellinck, Mike Gifford, Nilufer Erdebil, and Wayne Chu for appearing. Watch on YouTubehttps://youtube.com/live/lGNJ1zHXM78Related LinksOpen source and accessibility: How we can make government digital services available to everyoneCatch-up on Season One of Let’s Think Digital!