Listen, Learn & Love Hosted by Richard Ostler

My friend Gabby Rich (Brazil RM, BYU-Idaho graduate, day care teacher, from Anacortes, Washington) joins us to bravely share her story: * Grew up “goody 2 shoes” Mormon * “Shame cannot survive being spoken” * Kissed her last mission companion * Chose not to take the sacrament day of her mission homecoming * Believed she was straight—dated guys * Strong interest in a guy who “would be the answer to all my problems” * Broke off relationship—downward spiral of anxiety * Finally accepted being attracted to girls * Started to come out (some good and some not so good responses) * "Was still valuing others’ perceptions of me—versus living authentically" * UVU institute class for queer members—super helpful in her journey * Parents became great allies * Started dating girls—everything clicked * Wants to “find a girl who would share my same desire to maintain a relationship with Heavenly Father and works to becoming more Christlike” * Helpful advice received from others * Hopes for the future Thank you Gabby for your courage to share your story. I learned so much from you. Your brave/honest/vulnerable story will help others believe God loves them and find more hope. You are awesome. You have a great life ahead of you! Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/gabrielle.rich.73 Instagram: @richgabrielle

My friend Soren Neilsen (age 21, Sacramento California RM, from Michigan, University of Utah student) joins us to share his story: * Realizing he was different—not attracted to girls * Working through internalized homophobia and shame * Hurtful things said about gay people while growing up * Coming out to Bishop (good experience) * Gay LDS friend—friend throughout his mission—offered love, acceptance, and support * Decision to serve a mission * Coming out to both mission presidents (generally good) * Coming out to companions and generally the whole mission (generally good) * “God wants me to use my sexuality to help others come unto Christ” (I thought I could add that there is unity in our differences) * Deep testimony of our Heavenly Parents and our Savior—and His atonement (D&C6:36) * Personal revelation * Feeling his best path forward is to marry a man and build a life/family together with Christ as the foundation Thank you Soren for being on the podcast to share your story. You are brave. Thank you for helping so many people come unto Christ during your mission and for the many lives you blessed. Love your testimony/love of Christ and how He wants to help all of us. You are a good man with a wonderful future. Honored to have you on the podcast. Links: Instagram: @sojonie1 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/soren.nielsen.632826

My friend Laurie Reese (married mother of five, one grandchild, active LDS) joins us to share her story based on a recent talk she gave in her Ward: * Story of her son Landon and her daughter Hallee coming out as gay * Hallee’s marriage ended. Mother of one. Now engaged to her girlfriend * Laurie’s support for her gay children * Loneliness as some people pull away and don’t know what to say * Melissa Inouye’s book “Sacred Struggle” and sitting in the back seat on the road to Piha * Teaching of Jesus to love those on the margins “Easier to put others in a group and then label them in a certain way and set them aside and dismiss their pain and needs” * We don’t need to use Satan’s tactics (take away agency) to accomplish God’s plan * Questions I ask myself as I better try to follow Jesus * Landon’s difficult seminary experience—how we can do better * Church leader quotes about diversity and doing better * Story of selling a home and heart dropped as a gay couple came to look at the home—and now hoping her gay children will be loved as they move into their own homes This is a super powerful episode with Laurie being honest about the pain and challenges of raising gay children—not because they are gay—but because of the lack of support and understanding for these wonderful children. If you have queer children (or want to be better prepared to raise your future queer kiddos), please listen and share this episode. And if you want better tools to love our queer friends and their families, please listen/share this episode. Thank you Laurie for being on the podcast. I was so moved with your story and spiritual insights. Thanks for all you are doing to build Zion and help everyone feel loved and a sense of belonging. Links: https://www.facebook.com/laurie.v.reese Laurie.v.reese@gmail.com

My friend Douglas Williams (President of the Real OCD Club and the Un Alone Club at BYU; dual-major at BYU, RM, MTC Teacher) joins us to share his journey with OCD and scrupulosity: Understanding, managing, and accepting intrusive thoughts—not a sign of worthiness Thoughts don’t have anything to do with our character Undiagnosed scrupulosity entering mission field (repeated confessions to Stake President) Difficult start to mission, medication, things got better (still misdiagnosed) Coming home from mission, going off medication, and crashing Finally got a correct diagnosis—path to healing Importance of Exposure and Response Prevention Therapy Ego-syntonic thoughts (line up with values) and ego-dystonic thoughts (don’t line up with values)—super powerful distinction Invitation to join the Real OCD Club at BYU (focused on OCD) Invitation to join Un-Alone Club at BYU (focused on solving porn use) If you are working to understand and navigate OCD in yourself or help others, Douglas’ podcast will help you. Douglas—who has a gift of great communication—does an excellent job of helping us all better understand OCD/Scrupulosity and how to solve these mental health challenges. Links: Real OCD Club at BYU on Instagram: @readocdblub Un Alone Club at BYU on Instagram: @un.alone.byu

** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text chat 988 ** My friend Bruce Butcher (late 50s, married father of three, active LDS) joins us in a powerful episode to share the following: Loving and accepting people in his life who are no longer in the Church “We don’t punish a man for his beliefs” Losing his wonderful son Taylor to suicide in June 2024 Taylor’s prayer “bless the sick and sad, help us to be the best versions of ourselves” Painful doctrine the Church used to teach about suicide—led to no hope Love of a mother is the most powerful force on earth Love of our Heavenly Mother is the most powerful force in heaven—she isn’t going to cut off any of Her children Excluding people is not Christ’s doctrine David Archuleta—“I’m still a fan” Being a cafeteria Mormon My apology to my LGBTQ friends I deeply loved listening to and learning from Bruce. If you are looking for more hope in your life, be more like Jesus, and love/accept people walking different roads, please listen to and share Bruce’s podcast. Thank you, Bruce, for being on the podcast. You are a good man—helping so many. I’m so sorry your good son Taylor is gone. Love Taylor's heart as reflected in the words of his prayer.

My friend Mark White (professor, LMFT, aspiring ally, mid-60s, active LDS) joins us to talk about his new children’s book—which is focused on an 8-year-old’s decision about being baptized in the context of having two gay dads who attend church with her—and what we can do to be better allies/advocates to queer Latter-day Saints and their families. Mark shares the following: * Journey to be an aspiring ally/advocate * Clinical experience * His publishing company (Firefly Inkworks) and new book, Indigo’s Baptism * George Gerbner’s cultivation theory * The power of stories * Representation matters * To be seen * Future books * Need for all kinds of queer stories, including narratives for a book on LDS Trans and gender nonconforming persons Mark invites a discussion about how we can be a better ally/advocate (friend, parent, local leader, etc.), including asking our queer friends to let us know what they need and indicate whether we truly are an ally/advocate. The children of queer LDS parents are essentially invisible in LDS culture. Mark hopes Indigo's Baptism is a small step in increasing representation. He desires we use all the resources available to better support our queer friends. And if you are queer or have queer parent(s), Mark prays his work will give you hope as he talks about his love for and support of the queer community. Please contact him if you are interested in publishing a book or are willing to contribute a narrative to the book he and colleagues are working on that focuses on the needs and stories of current or former members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who are trans and gender nonconforming. Thank you, Mark, for being on the podcast. You are making a difference. You give me hope. Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61587754991132 Mark’s publishing company: www.fireflyinkworks.com Etsy store where you can buy Indigo’s Baptism: https://www.etsy.com/shop/FireflyInkworks?ref=shop-header-name&listing_id=4459276962&from_page=listing Instagram: fireflyinkworks Mark’s e-mail: fireflyinkworks@gmail.com Mark’s outline: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/awvy653dh8ubvi44uxcyb/LLL.Podcast-Outline.Indigo-s-Baptism.Feb-2026.pdf?rlkey=2b6fn8xxu4e37iiiqvexk6c20&dl=0

I was invited to be on my friend Tate Arnold’s show (Over___Soul) to share my story. I’ve posted that show as Episode 864 on our platform so you could listen here. Thank you, Tate, for letting me be on your show. You are a good man doing great work! Please check out and follow Tate on Instagram @Over___Soul