Listen, Learn & Love Hosted by Richard Ostler

My friend Hannah Larson (age 30, lives in New York, RM, founder of Humans of BYU, former seminary teacher, single) joins us to share her story. Hannah talks about: Powerful testimony of God’s love for all of us—and deep desire for everyone to feel that . Author of Diary of a Mormon Girl Teaching seminary—but being let go after one year. Super traumatizing experience. Put her whole soul into that assignment to help her students feel God’s love and being a safe place. Experienced pain of patriarchy, went into deep depression, how/why she didn’t leave the church Proactively met with prior Priesthood Leaders who harder her—mixed experiences—super brave—discussion of gaslighting How she is now on the margins as an unmarried 30-year-old How her value isn’t about “who she might be dating”—but her relationship with Jesus Christ Creating a safe community online & IRL for people in the church who want to discuss the complicated issues (see show notes) Why so many Gen Z women are leaving the church—and the need for honest conversations Her upcoming new book about finding God in her romantic relationships and dating experiences . Hannah is one of our bravely guests as she talks about the patriarchy/sexism/gaslighting that is part of our culture and how she is navigating those issues. Hannah talks about making it “all about Jesus” and how important that framework is to moving forward. Please check out Hannah’s social media (see show notes) to connect with her needed work in our community. Thank you, Hannah, for being on the podcast. You give me hope. You are awesome! Links: Hannah’s IG: @honest_han Substack: hannahklarson.substack.com

My friend Jon Larsen (married father of three, lives in Cedar City, 25+ years clinical experience) and Brooklyn Larsen (BYU student, early returned missionary from Argentina, service missionary) join us to talk about their new and needed podcast called “Returned Stronger”. The podcast (and Jon’s life coaching work) focuses on helping early return missionaries find their way forward on principles based on worth, value, and God’s love for them—and how “God never speaks to someone through shame”. In this episode Brooklyn bravely shares her journey with her mental health and why her mission needed to end to return home to get the necessary care she needed. Brooklyn talks honestly about this difficult road—and what gave her hope including deciding to serve a service mission and start their podcast. Jon talks about his role as her father to love and support her and his clinical expertise to support early return missionaries and their families. I encourage everyone to check out this episode and connect with the “Returning Stronger” podcast (see show notes). This will help you better love and support the missionaries in your life. And if you are planning on serving a mission, their podcast will help you better prepare for your mission. Links: Facebook, TikTok and Instagram: @ReturningStronger Podcast: https://youtube.com/@returningstronger Website: https://returningstronger.com

My friend Jerry Chong (active LDS, Temple worker, many leadership callings, lives in Calgary Canada, convert, powerful advocate for LGBTQ inclusion) joins us to share his story (was on Episode 41, 8 years ago): Advocacy work with Stake and Ward Leaders across the world (Canada, USA, UK, Brazil, etc) How to approach stake presidents and ward leaders to engage them in LGBTQ Inclusion and Sensitivity training for leaders and members . The email communications and patience that is required for these meetings to come together . What he teaches at these meetings Being a temple worker and explaining his singleness to fellow workers and temple presidencies Creating boundaries with homophobic church members Personal sacrifice and loneliness of being celibate—with no hope of companionship if he wants to remain a member is good standing Series of essays he’s written. E-mail Jerry if you want a copy (see show notes) Being an ally for transgender/non-binary Latter-day Saints . Arranging video conversations to learn about their lived experiences and the impact of church policies Hopes to start dating men. Going slow. Would like to be married and share the last chapters of his life with someone Thank you, Jerry, for being on the podcast. You are one of my heroes—sacrificing so much to be in a position where you can help advocate for better LGBTQ understanding and inclusion. You have blessed so many through your ministry. You are a true disciple of Christ. Honored to have you on the podcast. Please listen and share Jerry’s episode. It will help you be a better ally and will help you if for you are queer Latter-day Saint. Links: Jerry’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jerry.chong.52 Jerry’s IG: @mrjerrychong Jerry’s e-mail: [email protected] Episode 41: https://soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-41-jerry-chong-gay-mormon-convert-calgary-temple-worker Ministering Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143 Richard Ostler Substack on The Family Proclamation: https://substack.com/home/post/p-209436738

My friend Tucker Boyle (married father of five, PhD in Leadership Studies, went through a faith crisis/transition) joins us to share his story including: - How his doctoral research into church history led to a faith crisis - The pain of that road (emotional, physical, not belonging) - How the whole process changed him to be more kind, compassionate and supportive of others - Discussion of going from “melody” to “dissonance” to “harmony” - Why he won’t go back—so grateful for his faith transition—so much more equipped to help others - Why he started “Harmony Road Retreats”—a safe place for people in a faith crisis/faith transition/faith journey - Being a safe person as a YSA Bishop, Institute/Seminary teacher and doing much work to help others walking a difficult road - Helping people understand how they can calm their nervous system during times of transition If you are in a faith crisis/transition or want to have more insights to help others, please listen to/share Tucker’s podcast. Links: Instagram: @harmony_road_retreats Harmony Road Retreats website: https://www.harmonyroadretreats.com/ Email: [email protected]

My friend Dr. Seth Bott (PhD in Music Arts and Organ Performance, Director of Music, late 30s, Choir Master and Organist at St. James Episcopal Church, organ instructor, frequent performer in LDS spaces like education week) joins us to share his powerful story: Growing up in Castle Dale, Utah—dream of being a Tabernacle Organist Knowing he was gay—never going to tell anyone—believe just being gay was a sin until an Elder Holland talk Great mission, great experience at BYU (undergraduate and graduate degrees). Dream of being a Tabernacle Organist on track Friends getting married, not able to make it with a girl, desired companionship, finally started to come out Positive coming out experiences with family—including very tender experience with his Dad Dating men, being in an 11-year relationship which ended, his current partner Michael (super good relationship) Finding new dreams—not going to be a Tabernacle Organist Respect for LDS Church and respect for all paths that LGB Latter-day Saints walk Going back to his childhood ward in Castle Dale with his boyfriend for his parents’ homecoming and performing a musical number during the service. Love and acceptance for both of them—a little slice of Zion. Thank you, Seth, for being on the podcast. Respect for all your accomplished in your life with music, teaching and leading with love—like Jesus does. You are a good man and are doing so much to make this world a better place. Links: Seth’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/seth.bott.5 Seth’s IG: @sethgbott Church News Article about Seth: https://www.thechurchnews.com/living-faith/2024/09/18/organ-virtuoso-series-concert-2024-salt-lake-tabernacle-organ-seth-bott/ Seth's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@sethbottmusic780

My friend Chris Bissett (lives in Raymond, Alberta Canada, married father of 5, serving in Bishopric) joins us to share his story including: Realizing he is gay before his mission—learning how to balance his faith and his sexuality alone and dealing with the shame. Navigating things in the church that were helpful and some other things that were hurtful “Rage praying” and getting an answer “God was OK with me being gay” Coming out to his wife Becky in the first year of their marriage—wanted to be honest and have a relationship on trust While his wife is very supportive, he recognized he didn’t give her a choice, learning that a marriage of love needs to be built on truth (authenticity) and choice. Helpful meeting and getting great advice with Elder Holland early in their marriage Eventually couldn’t keep being gay on the “back burner”—needed to come out more openly Taking away the shame—living with confidence How he moved from seeing being gay as a “sacrifice” to moving toward “consecration” and using being himself as a gay member to build Zion His powerful Wayfare Article called “Light in a Watery Darkness, Finding a Way with Consecrated Identity” (see show notes). Chris shares a super insightful story with unique insights and perspectives—all coming from a place of no-shame, integrity, and confidence. I learned so much from Chris. If you are an LGBTQ Latter-day Saint, Chris’s story will help you. And Chris’s story will help you if you are looking to better understand and support our LGBTQ friends. You are a good man, Chris. Honored to have you on the podcast! Links: Wayfare article: https://www.wayfaremagazine.org/p/wilt-thou-suffer-that-we-shall-cross Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/chrisbissett

My friend Rich Cope (early 50s, father of four) join us to share his brave, vulnerable, and honest story in hopes of helping others: Growing up in Utah County and not fitting the mold/expectations for a man Great insights about broadening the definition of masculinity Processing his attractions to men in a vacuum—with no outside support/understanding Serving a mission and learning God loves him and will always be with him Trying to make it work with a woman—be told it will all work out Getting married—good marriage—why that marriage eventually ended Being closeted and being a dad to a gay son (who was out, authentic, and accepted himself) Decision to come out to his wife and then more broadly (lots of acceptance) Powerful testimony on how God loves all of His children—gay or straight Advice for younger LGBTQ folks This was another deeply moving podcast from my friend Rich Cope—who is so vulnerable, real, and honest—all attributes of masculinity. This podcast will help you in you are LGBTQ and help the rest of us better love/accept ourselves, know God’s love for us, and how to better love/support our LGBTQ friends. You are a good man, Rich. Honored to have you on the podcast. Links: Instagram: @richcoperealtor

** Note: This is not a book bashing the Church or a list of reasons to leave. This is a book to help those who have left the Church move forward in a thoughtful and intentional way—preserving relationships along the way—and honoring those who stay in the Church ** My friend Madison Daniels (early 30s, RM, no longer LDS, future therapist) joins us to share his new book, "Letters to a Young Ex-Mormon", to help those reconstruct a thoughtful, intentional life outside of the Church—and an invitation to bring the good of their faith tradition along the way. In doing this, Madison is not dismissing the pain and anger that many who leave the Church feel. Rather, he offers letters on familiar topics showing how to navigate a new world with healthy principles, perspective, healing, and good decision-making. Neither Madison nor I are inviting people to leave the Church—but leaving is a reality for some. If this is your reality or others who you love and want to support, I encourage you to read/share Madison’s book. You are a good man, Madison. Glad to have you on the podcast. I learned a lot from you. You work is needed in our community. Links: Madison’s book on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0GVGS28KP Instagram Acct: @mddanielsbooks