Listen, Learn & Love Hosted by Richard Ostler

My friend Jess Porter (oldest of six, Hong Kong RM, married husband in 2015) joins us to share his super unique and remarkable story including: New he was different as a child—but felt loved and supported by his family Didn’t fit in with the boys—had lots of girlfriends (but never romantic) Felt belonging with the high school swim team Went on a mission (still closeted) praying “God will finally cure this”—felt “tormented all the time” Great mission experience—felt brotherhood and belonging Crushing post-mission life at BYU realizing he is still gay and falling in love with a roommate Finally had the courage to talk to his BYU bishop about his attraction to men. Bishop rejected him and forced to withdraw from BYU Jess asks, “what do you do with the Bishop rejects you” and “not even worth trying to help” Come out to his parents Started to accept being gay and date men—that acceptance helped him to thrive in school and have hope Married Alex in 2015—great marriage “Fully embraced Babylon—eventually “life collapsed” Unconditional love from family and some spiritual experiences caused him to consider God and the Church again Starting to attend his San Diego Ward—deep feelings of belonging Incredible things his Ward did to help him and Alex feel welcome—including assignments for Jess like working tours for the San Diego Temple Open House Reading the Book of Mormon and knowing God loves Jess Non-agenda love from his LDS community to both him and Alex This is one of the best episodes we’ve recorded—Jess is one of my new heroes. Jess is honest about incredibility difficult church and extended family experiences, and how he has been able to get past those experiences to reconsider the Church again and is now feeling love, acceptance, and a needed member of the congregation. It is the best episode on what a ward family can do to support a couple in a same-sex marriage. Thank you, Jess, for being on the podcast. Your story will help so many. You are a good man with a great heart, testimony, and ability to give hope to others. Honored to have you on the podcast. Glad you and Alex have each other Thank you, listeners, for listening/sharing this episode. Links: YouTube: https://youtube.com/@sandiegodogdads Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dogtopians_of_san_diego Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jess.porter.77

My friends Dr. Lance Peterson and Dr. Angela Baerwolf join us to talk about their new research called “Acceptance Journeys of LDS Families of their LGB Child: An Interpretative Phenomenological Analysis”. Their article is published in the “Families in Society: The Journal of Contemporary Social Servies” (see show notes). Lance and Angela talk about how their team (which includes Sarah Chan Peterson and Katelyn Opperman) conducted qualitative research from ten of the brave stories shared on our podcast and using those stories to create four key themes of parents acceptance and love for their LGB child. In the podcast, they discuss the methodology (super fascinating), research, and their finding around these four themes: 1) Self-education and internal growth 2) Creating support and finding community 3) Encouraging and Supporting Spirituality 4) Sacred Advocacy and Spiritual Work I learn so much from their research. If are a parent, ally, or friend to an LGB person, I encourage you to listen to their podcast and check out their research. It will help you and empower you to better support the good LGB/Queer people in your life—and also give you ideas on how to be a “pioneer” to help others. Thank you, Lance, Angela, Sara, and Kate, for your much needed work. You give me hope. I encourage everyone to check out this episode and their research. Links: Research link (behind a paywall): https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/10443894261471608 Social Work Collaboration on Religion, Sexuality and Gender: https://sites.google.com/view/socialworkcollaborative/home Lance Peterson’s e-mail: [email protected] Lance’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lance-peterson-phd-licsw-b5a147b Angela’s email: [email protected] Angela’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/angelabaerwolf/ Angela’s article based on her dissertation: LGBTQ+ youth experiences of the COVID-19 pandemic as observed through gender-sexuality alliance advisors

This is a short podcast where I read excerpts from three Substack articles on this subject: Substack excerpt one: My thoughts on this subject as a former YSA Bishop Full Substack: https://papaostler.substack.com/p/thoughts-on-masturbation-after-serving Substack excerpt two: Anonymous male: “My lifelong struggle against masturbation and shame, and how individuals, families and the church as a whole can reduce the shame around masturbation.” Full Substack: https://papaostler.substack.com/p/overcoming-masturbation-and-shame Substack excerpt two: Anonymous female: “I wanted to expand this great dialogue about masturbation to address the underlying reasons many YSA’s turn to this in context of their alternative choices.” Full Substack: https://papaostler.substack.com/p/how-it-feels-to-be-an-older-24-ysa Note: My Substack is free and will always be free

My friend Pam Shepherd, a communications professional at George Mason University and a sixth-generation Latter-day Saint, joins us to share some of her journey growing up Mormon while not always feeling like she fit the traditional Mormon mold. Pam talks about navigating that experience at BYU and later as a young single adult in the Washington, DC area. She also discusses her desire to better understand the experiences of Gen Z Utah Latter-day Saint women (ages 18-29) on a variety of issues. That curiosity led to a research project for which she is currently seeking anonymous survey participants (see show notes for details). Thank you, Pam, for sharing both your personal story and the motivation behind this important research. Your experiences navigating life both within and outside traditional Mormon expectations give you a unique perspective as you seek to better understand the experiences of Gen Z Utah Latter-day Saint women. I appreciate your willingness to undertake this work and contribute meaningful data to an area where little research currently exists. It was a pleasure having you on the podcast. If you are a Gen Z LDS woman, I encourage you to fill out Pam’s survey. Survey: https://gmu.az1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_eE9q7qaZAsdbAHA Email: [email protected] Instagram: @pammyshep

Matt Mosman (friend from BYU MBA school, prior senior vice president of development at Oracle, currently general parter of venture capital firm in Salt Lake, well known expert on mergers and acquisitions), joins us to share the story of being called as the High Councilor over the Bay Ward in San Francisco and all they did to help the gay men and women feel welcome at Church. Those efforts including calling an “openly gay man” Mitch Maynes into the Bishopric as the executive secretary and sending a letter out to all ward members they are welcome and won’t be excommunicated for showing up at Church. Matt talks about speaking throughout the Stake on better supporting LGBTQ members and how he handed “the heat his took” for his advocacy. He talks about how God created His queer children as intended and we should look at them as beloved children of Heavenly Parents. Matt wrote a powerful essay called “How to Read Your Religion’s Foundational Texts” (see show notes) where he powerfully shares his feelings on: * Jesus’s strongest condemnation was for the Pharisees—and how that applies today * The parable of the Good Samaritan—best summary I’ve ever read Further, Matt is completely clear about why he stays in the Church and how he feels about where the Church is with its LGBTQ members: “What I mean by "cafeteria Christian" is this: a person who accepts large portions of their tradition's teaching while consciously declining others. I am one of these people. I am a committed member of my own denomination. I believe deeply in its foundational claims. I try to live according to its principles. Yet there are positions my church holds on certain matters — including, specifically, the treatment of LGBTQ members — where I have concluded, after long and prayerful consideration, that my tradition is simply wrong. I hold that view while remaining within the tradition, because I understand my faith to be larger than any single institutional position.” One of Matt’s gifts is being bold and clear—and he uses that gift to talk about how to better support our LGBT friends. Matt—who is politically left—also talks about speaking up to share how he feels even if it is a minority position. Matt shares his son coming out as gay several years after Matt’s High Council assignment and how that was a non-event—as a closest youth he already knew his Dad loved him as he saw-first hand his Dad’s advocacy—super powerful parenting experience for us all to consider. Thank you, Matt, for being on the podcast and all you do to help create Zion by helpful everyone feel welcome, loved and needed. You are a good man. I encourage everyone to listen to and share this powerful episode. Links: Matt’s essay: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/hd1utwih1h1qagx2eg0qn/How-to-Read-Your-Religion-s-Foundational-Texts-by-Matt-Mosman.pdf?rlkey=81quise3my3vii3brjri5jz74&dl=0

My friend Dan Hamby (married father of four) joins us to share his super powerful story of meeting with and ultimately forgiving the man who murdered his father Everett when Dan was 7 years old. Dan talks he wasn’t looking to connect with or forgive his father killer—but how that unlikely connection was established by his seminary teacher. Dad talks about how forgiving his father killer helped him in ways he didn’t know he needed. Dad talks about meeting with his father’s killer after his mission and how they helped him better understand God love for all of us and how our “value never changes” This is one of the most powerful and moving podcasts we’ve ever done. A must listen. If you are navigating the unfairness and wounding of life, please listen to Dan’s story along with his testimony of the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ to heal. It will give you more hope and vision of the possibilities in your future. Thank you, Dan, for being on the podcast. I was so moved and uplifted listen to your story—a story that gives all of us more vision on the power of forgiveness. Links: Facebook: www.facebook.com/dan.hamby IG: @dan_hamby72 e-mail: [email protected]

My friends Dave and Kirty Zimmerman (married parents of four, active LDS, live in Utah County) join us to share their story of loving/supporting their gay son Dallin who came out at age 13 and is currently serving a mission. Highlights include: * Age 13: “Mom, What if I’m Gay?” * Dave, Kirty, and Dallin walking that road alone for three years without telling anyone. Very difficult road for all three. Positive and negative ward experiences. * Watching the “light go out” of Dallin—and how coming out helped everyone * Dallin (working closely with his parents but letting Dallin take the lead) coming out to family, friends, and his Ward family * Working closely with the Bishop and Ward Council to counsel together and how to best support Dallin—super helpful * Helpful Bishop and Stake President * No pressure for Dallin to serve a mission—yet Dallin chose this so he “could share God’s love with others” * In the celestial room together with Dallin sharing he will never be able to make the next temple covenant—knowing he won’t be able to make it work with a woman * Importance of support for LDS parents walking this road—and how the Ward family can make all the difference for their journey with the Church * Kirty: “Some of the best parts of Dallin are the parts that are gay” * Importance of letting LGBTQ people use the labels they prefer—and how telling people not to take on a label creates shame—and how that is inconsistent with other LDS groups This is one of the finest podcasts we’ve done on how to support a queer child (out in early teenage years) navigating that with friends, family, and church community. So insightful—and helps all of us consider what we can do to support closeted families in our circle of influence. Also, one of the finest podcasts to help us better understand, support, and love a younger queer Latter-day Saint. Thank you, Dave and Kirty, for being on the podcast and sharing your family story. Thanks for your courage to do this. You are helping create Zion. Much love and respect to the Zimmerman family. Thank you Elder Dallin Zimmerman for allowing your parents to share your story. I feel you are concurrently serving two missions—your mission in South American and your mission with your powerful story being shared—both to help everyone know God loves them. ** Note: Dave and Kirty with be part of a parent breakout session at Gather (Nov 12-14 in Provo, Utah). See show notes for more information and how to register ** Links: Instagram @dave_zman: https://www.instagram.com/dave_zman Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Dizzi45Z Instagram @kirtyz: https://www.instagram.com/kirtyz Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kirtyz Gather Conference Nov 12-14: https://www.liftandlove.org/gather Faith Matters Episode: https://www.faithmatters.org/p/when-your-child-comes-out-as-gay

My friend Dr. Seth Bott (PhD in Music Arts and Organ Performance, Director of Music, late 30s, Choir Master and Organist at St. James Episcopal Church, organ instructor, frequent performer in LDS spaces like education week) joins us to share his powerful story: Growing up in Castle Dale, Utah—dream of being a Tabernacle Organist Knowing he was gay—never going to tell anyone—believe just being gay was a sin until an Elder Holland talk Great mission, great experience at BYU (undergraduate and graduate degrees). Dream of being a Tabernacle Organist on track Friends getting married, not able to make it with a girl, desired companionship, finally started to come out Positive coming out experiences with family—including very tender experience with his Dad Dating men, being in an 11-year relationship which ended, his current partner Michael (super good relationship) Finding new dreams—not going to be a Tabernacle Organist Respect for LDS Church and respect for all paths that LGB Latter-day Saints walk Going back to his childhood ward in Castle Dale with his boyfriend for his parents’ homecoming and performing a musical number during the service. Love and acceptance for both of them—a little slice of Zion. Thank you, Seth, for being on the podcast. Respect for all your accomplished in your life with music, teaching and leading with love—like Jesus does. You are a good man and are doing so much to make this world a better place. Links: Seth’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/seth.bott.5 Seth’s IG: @sethgbott Church News Article about Seth: https://www.thechurchnews.com/living-faith/2024/09/18/organ-virtuoso-series-concert-2024-salt-lake-tabernacle-organ-seth-bott/ Seth's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@sethbottmusic780