Listen, Learn & Love Hosted by Richard Ostler

In one of our bravest, raw, and most vulnerable episodes, my friend Rod Gardner (married father of 5, lives in Northern Utah, dentist, age 60) shares his story/new book called “Second Change Again: A Dentist’s Journey from Professional Success to Prison, Addiction, and Ultimate Redemption”. Rod shares how drugs became a coping mechanism to deal/escape with the anxiety/scrupulosity he experiences as a teenager. He talks about putting this all behind him for his mission and the first part of his marriage—and then how the cycle came back to escape/deal with the stress of dental school. Rod talks about how that cycle repeated itself—getting worse and worse—until almost all hope was lost. Rod talks about kneeling in prayer in the 5-person jail cell—at the end of his rope—and how that was the beginning of hope/peace which led to sustained recovery (back with his wife Jill, family, regained his dental license and practice, rebaptized). I will never forget Rod talking about praying in the jail cell (and the inmates that ended up joining him). Rod concludes the podcast talking about his love and support for his queer son Kaden and his partner—the first time they came to the home—and his how his heart was full of love, a big hug, and support for both of them. Rod talks about his mighty change of heart from his earlier years to where is his now to love all of God’s children. Super powerful podcast. I encourage everyone to listen/share this episode and read Rod’s book. If you are in a tough spot—feeling alone and losing hope—please listen and share Rod’s podcast/book. Thank you Rod for your courage to share your story. You give all of us more hope and help us better understand God’s love for each of us. You are a good man. Links: Rod’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/rod.gardner.509 Rod’s IG: @ rodneyg21 Rod’s E-mail: rodneytgardner@yahoo.com

My friend Greg Prince (writer, scientist, businessman, philanthropist—see bio at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_Prince) joins us to talk about his book “Gay Rights and the Mormon Church: Intended Actions, Unintended Consequences” released in 2019. In this episode, Greg talks the legal efforts of the Church to stop same-sex marriage starting in Hawaii (1990), Proposition 22 (2000) and Proposition 8 (2008) in California, and other efforts—and the “Unintended Consequences” along the way. Greg takes us behind the screens to understand the Church role in and arguments against same-sex marriage—arguments that end up not being empirically defendable. Stung and surprised by the backlash against the Church for its role in Proposition 8, Greg shares the stories of reconciliation between both groups—and how that led to the Church’s support for LGBTQ+ non-discrimination protections in Utah regarding housing and employment (SB296 in 2015). Greg talks about the Church support in 2023 for the Respect for Marriage Act—sending a General Authority Seventy for the signing of the bill at the White House. I believe it is important to understand the church’s efforts against same sex marriage—and its ultimate support 32 years later for the Respect for Marriage Act. It helps me understand the needless pain for LGBTQ Latter-day Saints and their families largely driven by the culture and fearmongering of the day—and to also open our hearts and minds to future efforts to better support them. It also causes me to consider targeted groups today—like our LDS transgender friends—and not wanting to fall in the same pattern. Thank you Greg for being on the podcast and all your efforts to bring more understanding and support for LGBTQ Latter-day Saints and their families. Links: Greg’s Book on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08P7Q8QZB Church’s support for Respect for Marriage Act: https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders/2022/12/13/23508214/church-releases-statement-amended-u-s-respect-for-marriage-act-signing/

My friend Dilyn Eyerly (student at Utah Valley University, age 31, RM, active LDS) joins us to share her story. Dilyn talks about growing up and realizing she was not straight and navigating that with herself, her family and the Church. Dilyn talks about her decision to serve a mission and the suicidal ideation she dealt with and how she was able to finish her mission. Dilyn talks about “Godly Anger” and coming out “fine I’m Bi”—and how coming out (“letting people in”) helped her and her journey with the Church. Dilyn talks about not going to Church but attending the UVU LGBTQ Institute class—and how that class (and all the supportive Institute Teachers)—eventually created a desire to go back to Church and the Temple—including telling her Bishop and Stake President “I’m a Bisexual Queer Woman and I’m done hiding, especially at Church.” Thank you Dilyn for your courage to come on the podcast and share your story. You are super brave and courageous. I learned so much from you story on how to better love and support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints. You helpful me further realize that fulling owning one’s identity and having supportive people in one’s life can be the road back to the Church. You are awesome. And I wish the UVU LGBTQ Institute class could scale church-wide so more could have the love, understanding, help connecting to God/Jesus, support that are in the class. Thank you for all the UVU Institute teachers who are supporting queer Latter-day Saints. Links: Dilyn’s Instagram: @dilyndidwhat

My friend Gabby Rich (Brazil RM, BYU-Idaho graduate, day care teacher, from Anacortes, Washington) joins us to bravely share her story: * Grew up “goody 2 shoes” Mormon * “Shame cannot survive being spoken” * Kissed her last mission companion * Chose not to take the sacrament day of her mission homecoming * Believed she was straight—dated guys * Strong interest in a guy who “would be the answer to all my problems” * Broke off relationship—downward spiral of anxiety * Finally accepted being attracted to girls * Started to come out (some good and some not so good responses) * "Was still valuing others’ perceptions of me—versus living authentically" * UVU institute class for queer members—super helpful in her journey * Parents became great allies * Started dating girls—everything clicked * Wants to “find a girl who would share my same desire to maintain a relationship with Heavenly Father and works to becoming more Christlike” * Helpful advice received from others * Hopes for the future Thank you Gabby for your courage to share your story. I learned so much from you. Your brave/honest/vulnerable story will help others believe God loves them and find more hope. You are awesome. You have a great life ahead of you! Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/gabrielle.rich.73 Instagram: @richgabrielle

My friend Soren Neilsen (age 21, Sacramento California RM, from Michigan, University of Utah student) joins us to share his story: * Realizing he was different—not attracted to girls * Working through internalized homophobia and shame * Hurtful things said about gay people while growing up * Coming out to Bishop (good experience) * Gay LDS friend—friend throughout his mission—offered love, acceptance, and support * Decision to serve a mission * Coming out to both mission presidents (generally good) * Coming out to companions and generally the whole mission (generally good) * “God wants me to use my sexuality to help others come unto Christ” (I thought I could add that there is unity in our differences) * Deep testimony of our Heavenly Parents and our Savior—and His atonement (D&C6:36) * Personal revelation * Feeling his best path forward is to marry a man and build a life/family together with Christ as the foundation Thank you Soren for being on the podcast to share your story. You are brave. Thank you for helping so many people come unto Christ during your mission and for the many lives you blessed. Love your testimony/love of Christ and how He wants to help all of us. You are a good man with a wonderful future. Honored to have you on the podcast. Links: Instagram: @sojonie1 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/soren.nielsen.632826

My friend Laurie Reese (married mother of five, one grandchild, active LDS) joins us to share her story based on a recent talk she gave in her Ward: * Story of her son Landon and her daughter Hallee coming out as gay * Hallee’s marriage ended. Mother of one. Now engaged to her girlfriend * Laurie’s support for her gay children * Loneliness as some people pull away and don’t know what to say * Melissa Inouye’s book “Sacred Struggle” and sitting in the back seat on the road to Piha * Teaching of Jesus to love those on the margins “Easier to put others in a group and then label them in a certain way and set them aside and dismiss their pain and needs” * We don’t need to use Satan’s tactics (take away agency) to accomplish God’s plan * Questions I ask myself as I better try to follow Jesus * Landon’s difficult seminary experience—how we can do better * Church leader quotes about diversity and doing better * Story of selling a home and heart dropped as a gay couple came to look at the home—and now hoping her gay children will be loved as they move into their own homes This is a super powerful episode with Laurie being honest about the pain and challenges of raising gay children—not because they are gay—but because of the lack of support and understanding for these wonderful children. If you have queer children (or want to be better prepared to raise your future queer kiddos), please listen and share this episode. And if you want better tools to love our queer friends and their families, please listen/share this episode. Thank you Laurie for being on the podcast. I was so moved with your story and spiritual insights. Thanks for all you are doing to build Zion and help everyone feel loved and a sense of belonging. Links: https://www.facebook.com/laurie.v.reese Laurie.v.reese@gmail.com

My friend Douglas Williams (President of the Real OCD Club and the Un Alone Club at BYU; dual-major at BYU, RM, MTC Teacher) joins us to share his journey with OCD and scrupulosity: Understanding, managing, and accepting intrusive thoughts—not a sign of worthiness Thoughts don’t have anything to do with our character Undiagnosed scrupulosity entering mission field (repeated confessions to Stake President) Difficult start to mission, medication, things got better (still misdiagnosed) Coming home from mission, going off medication, and crashing Finally got a correct diagnosis—path to healing Importance of Exposure and Response Prevention Therapy Ego-syntonic thoughts (line up with values) and ego-dystonic thoughts (don’t line up with values)—super powerful distinction Invitation to join the Real OCD Club at BYU (focused on OCD) Invitation to join Un-Alone Club at BYU (focused on solving porn use) If you are working to understand and navigate OCD in yourself or help others, Douglas’ podcast will help you. Douglas—who has a gift of great communication—does an excellent job of helping us all better understand OCD/Scrupulosity and how to solve these mental health challenges. Links: Real OCD Club at BYU on Instagram: @readocdblub Un Alone Club at BYU on Instagram: @un.alone.byu