Marketing Panes

Guest Profile: Will Hanke Will Hanke has two passions: supporting our US veterans and helping window treatment and awning businesses tell their story online – providing them with increased exposure, more customers, and higher revenues. For over twenty-seven years he has helped mom & pops, startups, and multi-million dollar companies with their digital marketing strategies. Will hosts monthly online training events and has spoken at conferences across the US on a wide variety of topics from analytics to lead generation through his company, Window Treatment Marketing Pros. Special Invite to Sun Shading Expo 2025 Heading to the Sun Shading Expo in Indianapolis this November 5–7? We’ve got you covered! Use code SSENA25WTMP when registering to claim your FREE admission ticket. Don’t miss this chance to connect with top industry leaders, see the latest innovations, and experience hands-on demos — all at no cost with our exclusive listener code. Other Notes/Links: pssst…. want to be a guest on the show? Listen to other episodes Subscribe to Marketing Panes for more expert insights, strategies, and real stories from across the window treatment and awning industry. Spotify: https://bit.ly/4j20C49 ApplePodcast: https://bit.ly/4c2VN8s Sun Shading Expo: Visit Website Video https://youtu.be/1QKpW0qHuJQ?si=RNktQVGug-43YXaf Click here to display Transcript TRANSCRIPT William Hanke (00:00.046) Today, I’ve got a bowl full of questions. I’m going to pull them out one by one and we’ll talk through them. It’s time for another episode of marketing pains. The podcast about marketing for window treatment and awning companies. Hey everyone. Welcome to Marketing Panes. The podcast where we dive into real marketing conversations for window treatment and awning pros. I’m Will Hanke and today we’re doing something a little different. So instead of a guest, I’m pulling questions straight out of real conversations I’ve had this year. Some came up during discovery calls, others from pros who are following along and just trying to figure out their marketing. These are real things people want to know whether they’re about to hire or they’re still running things themselves. So today I’ve got a bowl full of questions. I’m going to pull them out one by one and we’ll talk through them. So, all right, I’ve got my fancy Home Depot bucket here, paint bucket. I were remodeling the bathroom downstairs. So I just thought I’d use this before I filled it with paint. So what I want to do is obviously just pull out some different questions and see what they are, answer them lives. By the way, I’ve got 27 different questions in here that we’ve identified over the course of this entire year that are the most common questions. So, all right, let me just pull one out. See what we got here. How should I deal with negative or low star reviews? All right. Throw that in the trash. So low star reviews. The first thing that I would do is not reply. So I would write a reply to a one or two star review, but don’t publish it. You need some time to kind of chill and relax and get over that initial anger. So we tend to tell our clients, take a day or two to relax, write the review. And then after those 48 hours or so, go back and rewrite it. And maybe even consider using chat GPT to help you make it a little bit less angry and a little bit more factual. I think people respond well to one star reviews if a very good reply comes along with it. So listen, people understand we’re running a business and sometimes customers just aren’t great. But if you have a great written review, a reply after that, then William Hanke (02:23.885) A lot of times that makes people think you’re more real, more legit. And I’ve even heard people comment that 0.8 stars is better than five only because it makes you look more like a real company. So we all have those customers. We all get those kinds of one-star reviews from time to time. Take some time before you reply. Make sure you craft a reply and make sure you do reply for sure, but just, you know, don’t do it fully in anger. Do it very factual. And hopefully that will actually help your business down the road. All right, let’s grab another one out of here. Put that down. Can I spend $10 a day on Google ads? Sure. I wouldn’t recommend it. That is $300 a month. For our clients, we recommend that they start at $1,500 a month, which is what? 50 bucks a day. Um, the reason is a couple of things. $300 a month is going to get you one or maybe two leads in a new Google ad campaign. You should expect to pay between 160 and $210 per lead. So by recommending 1500 as a starting point, you should expect to get seven or so leads out of that money out of that spend. If you’re decent at sales and you close four of those seven. If the average job is, let’s say four grand, that’s about the average for, for a room that’s a $16,000 in revenue for $1,500 spend. Pretty nice return. If you’re spending $300 a day, one of the problems is early on in a Google ad campaign, Google puts you into a learning phase and that learning phase is learning who is going to engage with your ads. Who’s going to convert into an actual customer. And at $300 a month, when you are getting, let’s just say $200 cost per lead, that one lead per month is not enough for Google. There’s not enough meat on the bone for Google to really do a good job of getting you in front of the right people. If you only want to spend $10 a day, I would probably recommend doing some good SEO on your site, the best you can. We’ve got a great SEO masterclass that you can go through for free. William Hanke (04:47.053) and then run Facebook retargeting ads. So basically people that have already been exposed to your brand in some way, you can follow them around on Facebook, probably have a hard time spending $10 a day on retargeting ads on Facebook. That’s probably where I would put my money. if you want to do Google ads, you’re going to need to be spending closer to that 40, $50 a month or a day, which sounds horrible, but. Listen, if you can put a dollar in and $10 comes out, how many dollars do you want to put in? Now the other piece to that is the cost per lead doesn’t stay at that 160 to 210. If we can drive that cost per lead down to 150, 140, even a hundred dollars or lower, that would be fantastic, right? We’re not asking you to spend more money, but you’re getting more leads for the same spend. So that’s a better approach. Than just trying to spend a couple hundred bucks a month on Google ads probably save that money and put it elsewhere Alright next question. Is it better to do SEO or ads first? So good aunt good question the Correct way to do this is you need to start on SEO right away And I saw one of the other questions in the bucket that was how long does SEO take SEO can take eight months nine months twelve months to really start to gain momentum And depending on how many other people in your town are also doing SEO, you know, that could really stretch out. So you have to run ads while you’re working on your SEO. Both of these have to work in tandem. Ads are going to get the phone to ring now. SEO is going to get the phone to ring later. The idea is as your SEO really starts to gain momentum, maybe you can pull some of that ad budget back. or divert some of that ad budget to next door or Facebook or Instagram, some of these other places and just really start to increase that momentum as things go on. But they really need to work together. All right. Let’s grab another question. Let’s see what we got here. How much time do I need to invest each month into a valuable marketing campaign? William Hanke (07:01.299) So this depends on if you’re able to hire a company to do it. If you’re able to hire a company like mine to do your ongoing marketing, you don’t have to spend a whole lot of time working with the marketing company monthly strategy calls or quarterly strategy calls. Make sure that everybody is working in the same direction is always a great thing. after initial onboarding and sign up, which can get a little time intensive, ongoing can be pretty small. Now, if you’re not able to hire a marketing company, then it really just comes down to how much time can you put in? You’re busy running a business, which takes a lot of your time. Do you also have time to do the marketing piece of that as well? We provide a lot of resources to help people with that so that you can get to the point where you can actually hire a marketing company like us. But early on, it’s a lot of guerrilla marketing. getting out there and pounding the pavement, optimizing your site, getting a well-built ad library going. There’s a lot of moving pieces to it, but it is very possible to do yourself. It’s just going to require a lot of time outside of actually running your business as well. It just depends on what that trade-off is. Is it better to spend that money and have somebody doing that? If you have that revenue, obviously, if you don’t have that revenue, then it’s a pretty much a no brainers. All right, let’s grab another one. this is a short one. What is geofencing? So geofencing is basically drawing a fence around a specific physical area on the globe and showing ads to that area. An example could be, let’s say you got a budget blinds in town and you want to run ads to people that are in their parking lot. Is it the best use of your spend? Probably not because if somebody has already gone to budget and decided that’s where they’re going to go or Home Depot or Costco or wherever, most likely that’s where they’re going to make their decision, right? If they suddenly see an ad for ABC blinds in town, they’re probably not going to engage with that business. So maybe not the best use of your money, but you know, if you can get it really cheap, there’s, can run geofencing. William Hanke (09:19.867) ads without, you know, without issue, but that’s what it is. Basically just drawing a, a, not really a square drawing some sort of shape around a location and showing ads specifically in that location. All right. Let’s see what we got next. Do next door ads work. So about maybe close to a year ago now next door revamped their ad platform. Prior to that, it was pretty sketchy. Wasn’t great, but the revamp that they did really up, up to their game on the ad side of things. So do they work? Yes, they work fantastically. You can really dial down on subdivisions, zip codes, very specific areas that you want your ads to show. And you can get pretty direct with those. We have a lot of clients that obviously start with Google ads. Maybe they’ll add Facebook ads as a secondary or. Yelp or Nextdoor as that secondary where they really just want to gain more momentum. I would not recommend Nextdoor as the first piece of your strategy. Google ads is pretty much always that piece, but Nextdoor ads do work. You can get very local. You can get very specific on affluent parts of your town, those sorts of things, and really reach out to the right. clientele. I think the bigger jobs are in those, you know, more affluent areas typically or new construction, those types of things. But yes, absolutely. They do work. So, all right, let’s pull another one out of here. Is it worth signing up for online directories? Yes. So online directories, business type directories are a fantastic citation related tool. And one of the things that Google looks at In order to rank people in the Google maps area is the amount of citations they have. Citations are mentions of your business around the web where it lists your name and your address and your phone. Typically those things, it might add a link to your business, but it might not. Google smart enough to know if name, address, and phone match that they’ll actually count that as a link for your business. So the more online directories that you can get listed on. William Hanke (11:41.96) the better off you are. Now the more relevant, meaning industry related or local related business directories that you can be on, those are even better because they send signals to Google about who you are, but also that you work in this specific area. So those are fantastic. Now we actually have an online directory called America’s best window treatments. That is a fantastic place to get your business listed. It has been. noted as a citation source in a lot of things, including chat GPT. So we have clients or we have customers now that are going to chat GPT, typing in who is the best window treatment company near me and chat GPT. Those language models are using citation sources to make those decisions and recommendations. for the best company near this person, this searcher. Absolutely. Business directories are a great place to start. A couple ideas there. So we use brightlocal.com as the source for building citations and monitoring those citations. There’s also Yext. Y-E-X-T is fairly popular. There’s one called Moz Local, M-O-Z Local. And one of the best well-known ones is out of Canada. It’s called Whitespark. Whitespark.ca. Cool thing about Whitespark is you can go and type in like what you do, window treatments, and then you can put your area and it will find you a lot of local business directories that you can add yourself to. Now, in addition, obviously joining the chamber, the BNI, if any of those list you on their sites, those are great ways of getting additional very local citations. And another way to do that is Little League Sponsorships. Sites like that where you’re typically donating money in exchange for some sort of sponsorship. Those tend to work really well, although a lot of times they expire after a season or a certain amount of time. All right. Next question. Are trade shows worth it or a waste of time? So trade shows, home shows, those sorts of things. Most of our clients do these in their local town, their local home show. William Hanke (13:55.513) And absolutely worth their time. In most cases, they’re not terribly expensive to get a booth at these shows. is a great brand exposure play. If you have something there that you can give away, let’s say a brochure or something, maybe a little nicer than just a flyer. But if there’s something you can give away where people will be able to reference that at a later point, I think those are all great options. And again, a great brand exposure play more than lead generation. It’s just another opportunity for you to stay top of mind. Now on the other side of that is trade shows where you’re going to the sun shading expo for, for instance, and looking at all the vendors that are offering services for your business. These are great to go to as well. If you’re looking for new vendors. If you’re looking to upgrade some of the things that you offer, maybe add some new lines in. course, these are great places to go. Everybody’s in one spot. You can have those conversations. You can learn more about their products. A lot of times you can see their products. You can play with their products. You can ask questions to their reps or to their salespeople about how the products work. And then of course, get pricing all of that as well. So absolutely worth going and checking out. A lot of our clients will go every two to three years, it seems like, and they’ll usually time it around when the trade show is a little closer. So travel is not as expensive. For instance, we’ll be at the Sun Shading Expo here in November. I think it’s November 5 through 7. And that is a fantastic show. If you’re wanting to look for new vendors related to window treatments, awnings. exterior shading. All of those are going to be in one place at this show in Indianapolis this year. Very excited to be at the show. And if it’s centrally located this year, which is really nice. So if you’re looking for an opportunity to go to a trade show, that’s probably the best one that you can go to right now. I’ll put a link to that in the description below at sunshadingexpo.com. All right. Let’s finish up with one more question here. I’m going to choose. William Hanke (16:11.784) this one. What sort of report should I expect from a marketing agency? Great question. So at the end of the day, the best report is again, as I mentioned earlier, you put a dollar in and $10 came out. That’s a great report, right? You know that things are working. Now that’s pretty generic because you need to get a little bit more specific about maybe you put a dollar in one program and $20 came out, you put it in another program and no money came out, right? So you still want to see some sort of lead source report that shows by lead source, how many leads are we getting? How many of those are turning into opportunities and how many of those are we actually closing? And having that information by lead source is really going to help you with strategy and show you, you know, we put money into Google ads. And we got this out, we put money into Facebook retargeting. We got this out. We put money into some door hangers and this is what we got out of that. So having all that tracking in place and then looking at it by source is really the ultimate goal for you to know what’s working, what to do more of and what maybe not to do more of as well. That is probably the best report that we provide for our customers. because it is the one that tells them if it’s working or not. The average customer needs around 12 touches before they engage with a business. 12 touches is a lot of touches. So maybe you’re running Facebook ads and maybe you’re boosting a post on Facebook and they see you as they’re scrolling through. They might not engage with that, but just the fact that you’re staying top of mind because they scrolled past you on that. That does count and it should get some attribution at the end of the day towards creating that final sale. However, typically we only are able to track the first attribution, the first touch point with a business and, or the last one, the last thing they did before they actually set the appointment. But in reality, there’s a lot of other pieces in between there that you don’t get. sometimes those lead source attribution reports are not a hundred percent accurate. William Hanke (18:28.444) but should still give you a decent idea. If you’re running things like call tracking on your Google business profile and on your Facebook ads and your Google ads, you’ll be able to directly tell that this phone call came because of this platform. So that’s nice. But again, there were probably touches before that that helped encourage that person to decide to reach out to you. Lots of different ways you can go about this. And you should be doing a lot of these things. It’s just hard to be able to do all of these things and know that they’re working or not working. So cost per lead is probably another report item that we always report on because at the end of the day, that’s what clients want to know. How much did I spend to acquire leads this month? And what was the conversion rate for those leads? So I could have got a hundred leads, but if they were really bad quality, I only closed three of them. That’s not as great as getting 25 leads and closing 50 % of them. Right. So it doesn’t just count on eyeballs or impressions on your brand, but more importantly cost per lead. How much did it cost you to actually get a lead? And then did they convert into actual business actual signed proposals? All right. If any of these questions sounded familiar, you’re not alone. These are the things that window treatment pros are really asking and talking through them helps them make smarter decisions about where to spend their time and money. If today’s episode gave you something useful, share it with another business owner in the trade. And don’t forget to follow Marketing Panes for more practical straight shooting marketing advice. Thanks for listening and I will catch you next. TRANSCRIPT William Hanke (00:00.046) Today, I’ve got a bowl full of questions. I’m going to pull them out one by one and we’ll talk through them. It’s time for another episode of marketing pains. The podcast about marketing for window treatment and awning companies. Hey everyone. Welcome to Marketing Panes. The podcast where we dive into real marketing conversations for window treatment and awning pros. I’m Will Hanke and today we’re doing something a little different. So instead of a guest, I’m pulling questions straight out of real conversations I’ve had this year. Some came up during discovery calls, others from pros who are following along and just trying to figure out their marketing. These are real things people want to know whether they’re about to hire or they’re still running things themselves. So today I’ve got a bowl full of questions. I’m going to pull them out one by one and we’ll talk through them. So, all right, I’ve got my fancy Home Depot bucket here, paint bucket. I were remodeling the bathroom downstairs. So I just thought I’d use this before I filled it with paint. So what I want to do is obviously just pull out some different questions and see what they are, answer them lives. By the way, I’ve got 27 different questions in here that we’ve identified over the course of this entire year that are the most common questions. So, all right, let me just pull one out. See what we got here. How should I deal with negative or low star reviews? All right. Throw that in the trash. So low star reviews. The first thing that I would do is not reply. So I would write a reply to a one or two star review, but don’t publish it. You need some time to kind of chill and relax and get over that initial anger. So we tend to tell our clients, take a day or two to relax, write the review. And then after those 48 hours or so, go back and rewrite it. And maybe even consider using chat GPT to help you make it a little bit less angry and a little bit more factual. I think people respond well to one star reviews if a very good reply comes along with it. So listen, people understand we’re running a business and sometimes customers just aren’t great. But if you have a great written review, a reply after that, then William Hanke (02:23.885) A lot of times that makes people think you’re more real, more legit. And I’ve even heard people comment that 0.8 stars is better than five only because it makes you look more like a real company. So we all have those customers. We all get those kinds of one-star reviews from time to time. Take some time before you reply. Make sure you craft a reply and make sure you do reply for sure, but just, you know, don’t do it fully in anger. Do it very factual. And hopefully that will actually help your business down the road. All right, let’s grab another one out of here. Put that down. Can I spend $10 a day on Google ads? Sure. I wouldn’t recommend it. That is $300 a month. For our clients, we recommend that they start at $1,500 a month, which is what? 50 bucks a day. Um, the reason is a couple of things. $300 a month is going to get you one or maybe two leads in a new Google ad campaign. You should expect to pay between 160 and $210 per lead. So by recommending 1500 as a starting point, you should expect to get seven or so leads out of that money out of that spend. If you’re decent at sales and you close four of those seven. If the average job is, let’s say four grand, that’s about the average for, for a room that’s a $16,000 in revenue for $1,500 spend. Pretty nice return. If you’re spending $300 a day, one of the problems is early on in a Google ad campaign, Google puts you into a learning phase and that learning phase is learning who is going to engage with your ads. Who’s going to convert into an actual customer. And at $300 a month, when you are getting, let’s just say $200 cost per lead, that one lead per month is not enough for Google. There’s not enough meat on the bone for Google to really do a good job of getting you in front of the right people. If you only want to spend $10 a day, I would probably recommend doing some good SEO on your site, the best you can. We’ve got a great SEO masterclass that you can go through for free. William Hanke (04:47.053) and then run Facebook retargeting ads. So basically people that have already been exposed to your brand in some way, you can follow them around on Facebook, probably have a hard time spending $10 a day on retargeting ads on Facebook. That’s probably where I would put my money. if you want to do Google ads, you’re going to need to be spending closer to that 40, $50 a month or a day, which sounds horrible, but. Listen, if you can put a dollar in and $10 comes out, how many dollars do you want to put in? Now the other piece to that is the cost per lead doesn’t stay at that 160 to 210. If we can drive that cost per lead down to 150, 140, even a hundred dollars or lower, that would be fantastic, right? We’re not asking you to spend more money, but you’re getting more leads for the same spend. So that’s a better approach. Than just trying to spend a couple hundred bucks a month on Google ads probably save that money and put it elsewhere Alright next question. Is it better to do SEO or ads first? So good aunt good question the Correct way to do this is you need to start on SEO right away And I saw one of the other questions in the bucket that was how long does SEO take SEO can take eight months nine months twelve months to really start to gain momentum And depending on how many other people in your town are also doing SEO, you know, that could really stretch out. So you have to run ads while you’re working on your SEO. Both of these have to work in tandem. Ads are going to get the phone to ring now. SEO is going to get the phone to ring later. The idea is as your SEO really starts to gain momentum, maybe you can pull some of that ad budget back. or divert some of that ad budget to next door or Facebook or Instagram, some of these other places and just really start to increase that momentum as things go on. But they really need to work together. All right. Let’s grab another question. Let’s see what we got here. How much time do I need to invest each month into a valuable marketing campaign? William Hanke (07:01.299) So this depends on if you’re able to hire a company to do it. If you’re able to hire a company like mine to do your ongoing marketing, you don’t have to spend a whole lot of time working with the marketing company monthly strategy calls or quarterly strategy calls. Make sure that everybody is working in the same direction is always a great thing. after initial onboarding and sign up, which can get a little time intensive, ongoing can be pretty small. Now, if you’re not able to hire a marketing company, then it really just comes down to how much time can you put in? You’re busy running a business, which takes a lot of your time. Do you also have time to do the marketing piece of that as well? We provide a lot of resources to help people with that so that you can get to the point where you can actually hire a marketing company like us. But early on, it’s a lot of guerrilla marketing. getting out there and pounding the pavement, optimizing your site, getting a well-built ad library going. There’s a lot of moving pieces to it, but it is very possible to do yourself. It’s just going to require a lot of time outside of actually running your business as well. It just depends on what that trade-off is. Is it better to spend that money and have somebody doing that? If you have that revenue, obviously, if you don’t have that revenue, then it’s a pretty much a no brainers. All right, let’s grab another one. this is a short one. What is geofencing? So geofencing is basically drawing a fence around a specific physical area on the globe and showing ads to that area. An example could be, let’s say you got a budget blinds in town and you want to run ads to people that are in their parking lot. Is it the best use of your spend? Probably not because if somebody has already gone to budget and decided that’s where they’re going to go or Home Depot or Costco or wherever, most likely that’s where they’re going to make their decision, right? If they suddenly see an ad for ABC blinds in town, they’re probably not going to engage with that business. So maybe not the best use of your money, but you know, if you can get it really cheap, there’s, can run geofencing. William Hanke (09:19.867) ads without, you know, without issue, but that’s what it is. Basically just drawing a, a, not really a square drawing some sort of shape around a location and showing ads specifically in that location. All right. Let’s see what we got next. Do next door ads work. So about maybe close to a year ago now next door revamped their ad platform. Prior to that, it was pretty sketchy. Wasn’t great, but the revamp that they did really up, up to their game on the ad side of things. So do they work? Yes, they work fantastically. You can really dial down on subdivisions, zip codes, very specific areas that you want your ads to show. And you can get pretty direct with those. We have a lot of clients that obviously start with Google ads. Maybe they’ll add Facebook ads as a secondary or. Yelp or Nextdoor as that secondary where they really just want to gain more momentum. I would not recommend Nextdoor as the first piece of your strategy. Google ads is pretty much always that piece, but Nextdoor ads do work. You can get very local. You can get very specific on affluent parts of your town, those sorts of things, and really reach out to the right. clientele. I think the bigger jobs are in those, you know, more affluent areas typically or new construction, those types of things. But yes, absolutely. They do work. So, all right, let’s pull another one out of here. Is it worth signing up for online directories? Yes. So online directories, business type directories are a fantastic citation related tool. And one of the things that Google looks at In order to rank people in the Google maps area is the amount of citations they have. Citations are mentions of your business around the web where it lists your name and your address and your phone. Typically those things, it might add a link to your business, but it might not. Google smart enough to know if name, address, and phone match that they’ll actually count that as a link for your business. So the more online directories that you can get listed on. William Hanke (11:41.96) the better off you are. Now the more relevant, meaning industry related or local related business directories that you can be on, those are even better because they send signals to Google about who you are, but also that you work in this specific area. So those are fantastic. Now we actually have an online directory called America’s best window treatments. That is a fantastic place to get your business listed. It has been. noted as a citation source in a lot of things, including chat GPT. So we have clients or we have customers now that are going to chat GPT, typing in who is the best window treatment company near me and chat GPT. Those language models are using citation sources to make those decisions and recommendations. for the best company near this person, this searcher. Absolutely. Business directories are a great place to start. A couple ideas there. So we use brightlocal.com as the source for building citations and monitoring those citations. There’s also Yext. Y-E-X-T is fairly popular. There’s one called Moz Local, M-O-Z Local. And one of the best well-known ones is out of Canada. It’s called Whitespark. Whitespark.ca. Cool thing about Whitespark is you can go and type in like what you do, window treatments, and then you can put your area and it will find you a lot of local business directories that you can add yourself to. Now, in addition, obviously joining the chamber, the BNI, if any of those list you on their sites, those are great ways of getting additional very local citations. And another way to do that is Little League Sponsorships. Sites like that where you’re typically donating money in exchange for some sort of sponsorship. Those tend to work really well, although a lot of times they expire after a season or a certain amount of time. All right. Next question. Are trade shows worth it or a waste of time? So trade shows, home shows, those sorts of things. Most of our clients do these in their local town, their local home show. William Hanke (13:55.513) And absolutely worth their time. In most cases, they’re not terribly expensive to get a booth at these shows. is a great brand exposure play. If you have something there that you can give away, let’s say a brochure or something, maybe a little nicer than just a flyer. But if there’s something you can give away where people will be able to reference that at a later point, I think those are all great options. And again, a great brand exposure play more than lead generation. It’s just another opportunity for you to stay top of mind. Now on the other side of that is trade shows where you’re going to the sun shading expo for, for instance, and looking at all the vendors that are offering services for your business. These are great to go to as well. If you’re looking for new vendors. If you’re looking to upgrade some of the things that you offer, maybe add some new lines in. course, these are great places to go. Everybody’s in one spot. You can have those conversations. You can learn more about their products. A lot of times you can see their products. You can play with their products. You can ask questions to their reps or to their salespeople about how the products work. And then of course, get pricing all of that as well. So absolutely worth going and checking out. A lot of our clients will go every two to three years, it seems like, and they’ll usually time it around when the trade show is a little closer. So travel is not as expensive. For instance, we’ll be at the Sun Shading Expo here in November. I think it’s November 5 through 7. And that is a fantastic show. If you’re wanting to look for new vendors related to window treatments, awnings. exterior shading. All of those are going to be in one place at this show in Indianapolis this year. Very excited to be at the show. And if it’s centrally located this year, which is really nice. So if you’re looking for an opportunity to go to a trade show, that’s probably the best one that you can go to right now. I’ll put a link to that in the description below at sunshadingexpo.com. All right. Let’s finish up with one more question here. I’m going to choose. William Hanke (16:11.784) this one. What sort of report should I expect from a marketing agency? Great question. So at the end of the day, the best report is again, as I mentioned earlier, you put a dollar in and $10 came out. That’s a great report, right? You know that things are working. Now that’s pretty generic because you need to get a little bit more specific about maybe you put a dollar in one program and $20 came out, you put it in another program and no money came out, right? So you still want to see some sort of lead source report that shows by lead source, how many leads are we getting? How many of those are turning into opportunities and how many of those are we actually closing? And having that information by lead source is really going to help you with strategy and show you, you know, we put money into Google ads. And we got this out, we put money into Facebook retargeting. We got this out. We put money into some door hangers and this is what we got out of that. So having all that tracking in place and then looking at it by source is really the ultimate goal for you to know what’s working, what to do more of and what maybe not to do more of as well. That is probably the best report that we provide for our customers. because it is the one that tells them if it’s working or not. The average customer needs around 12 touches before they engage with a business. 12 touches is a lot of touches. So maybe you’re running Facebook ads and maybe you’re boosting a post on Facebook and they see you as they’re scrolling through. They might not engage with that, but just the fact that you’re staying top of mind because they scrolled past you on that. That does count and it should get some attribution at the end of the day towards creating that final sale. However, typically we only are able to track the first attribution, the first touch point with a business and, or the last one, the last thing they did before they actually set the appointment. But in reality, there’s a lot of other pieces in between there that you don’t get. sometimes those lead source attribution reports are not a hundred percent accurate. William Hanke (18:28.444) but should still give you a decent idea. If you’re running things like call tracking on your Google business profile and on your Facebook ads and your Google ads, you’ll be able to directly tell that this phone call came because of this platform. So that’s nice. But again, there were probably touches before that that helped encourage that person to decide to reach out to you. Lots of different ways you can go about this. And you should be doing a lot of these things. It’s just hard to be able to do all of these things and know that they’re working or not working. So cost per lead is probably another report item that we always report on because at the end of the day, that’s what clients want to know. How much did I spend to acquire leads this month? And what was the conversion rate for those leads? So I could have got a hundred leads, but if they were really bad quality, I only closed three of them. That’s not as great as getting 25 leads and closing 50 % of them. Right. So it doesn’t just count on eyeballs or impressions on your brand, but more importantly cost per lead. How much did it cost you to actually get a lead? And then did they convert into actual business actual signed proposals? All right. If any of these questions sounded familiar, you’re not alone. These are the things that window treatment pros are really asking and talking through them helps them make smarter decisions about where to spend their time and money. If today’s episode gave you something useful, share it with another business owner in the trade. And don’t forget to follow Marketing Panes for more practical straight shooting marketing advice. Thanks for listening and I will catch you next.

Guest Profile: Bert Bolton Bert Bolton – Blind Cleaners Network Bert’s been in the business for over 20 years, and he’s built something that’s part training center, part network, and part powerhouse support system for people in or entering the blind cleaning space. He has blended his expertise in the fields of education and cleaning to support a growing network of professionally minded blind and drapery cleaners. His facility is one place major fabricators like Hunter Douglas and Springs Window Fashions send new products or fabrics for testing, cleaning, and evaluations. Students from as far away as Australia also come to learn this niche of the cleaning world, whether it be ultrasonics or OnSite Fabricare. When not working, Bert and his wife Miriam enjoy time on the water in their kayaks, fishing (water or dirt) or sneaking away to visit their Idaho grandsons who are not quite old enough to do any of the above things unsupervised yet. Description What if blind cleaning and small repairs could unlock thousands in repeat business — or even lead to six-figure design projects? In this episode of Marketing Panes, host Will Hanke sits down with Bert Bolton of the Blind Cleaners Network to uncover the hidden potential in cleaning and repair services for window treatment businesses. You’ll hear real-world stories, including: How a simple cord repair turned into a $2,000 cleaning job:white_check_mark: The decorator who turned six blinds into $100K of work in her first year with a client Why cleaning is one of the most overlooked yet powerful marketing tools in our industry How repeat commercial contracts (like schools) can bring in thousands every few years The role of the Blind Cleaners Network in training, credibility, and creating new business connections Whether you’re a window treatment pro, workroom, or designer, this conversation will help you see blind cleaning and repair in a whole new light, as a pathway to long-term, high-value clients. From Dust to Dollars: Is Blind Cleaning a Secret Sales Engine? Blind cleaning may not sound glamorous, but it can be one of the most powerful sales and marketing tools in the window treatment industry. What often begins as a simple cleaning or repair can open the door to long-term, high-value client relationships, repeat contracts, and even six-figure design projects.In a recent episode of Marketing Panes, Bert Bolton, founder of the Blind Cleaners Network, shared how blind cleaning has become a hidden sales engine for dealers, decorators, and cleaning professionals alike. Summary Blind cleaning and small repairs are often dismissed as “low-margin” work. But for forward-thinking window treatment businesses, these services create a gateway to stronger client trust, repeat business, and new revenue opportunities. By combining credibility, expertise, and the right partnerships, blind cleaning can transform into a growth strategy—not just a service add-on. The Overlooked Power of Blind Cleaning Why Dealers Often Skip It Many window treatment dealers hesitate to offer cleaning services because the immediate profit margins appear smaller compared to selling new products. However, this view can overlook the bigger picture. Cleaning provides more than income—it creates opportunities to enter homes, build relationships, and position yourself as the trusted go-to provider. Cleaning as a Door Opener A minor repair, like fixing a cord, might only take minutes but can lead to thousands in additional work. As Bert shared, one decorator secured a $100K project that started with cleaning just six blinds. Another example: a school district that first engaged through a small repair ended up providing recurring cleaning contracts every few years, creating steady revenue. Turning Service Calls into Sales Trust Leads to Bigger Projects Once inside a client’s home or business, a cleaning job often uncovers more opportunities. A customer who starts with a single blind cleaning may later request quotes for replacements or upgrades, all because they’ve already built trust with the provider. Marketing Value in High-End Homes Cleaning provides entry into homes and spaces that dealers might not otherwise reach. In luxury markets, this can be the perfect introduction to clients who value quality and are likely to invest in larger projects down the road. Building Credibility Through Training and Networking The Role of Blind Cleaners Network The Blind Cleaners Network equips professionals with the tools, training, and credibility to deliver quality service. From hands-on workshops to manufacturer partnerships with Hunter Douglas and Springs Window Fashions, the network helps raise professionalism across the industry. Why Certification Matters Being part of a professional network communicates reliability and expertise. This credibility not only reassures clients but also makes it easier to build partnerships with decorators, dry cleaners, and restoration companies who may pass along referrals. A Hidden Sales Engine Worth Exploring Blind cleaning isn’t just about maintenance—it’s about positioning your business for repeat contracts, high-value projects, and long-term relationships. By reframing cleaning and repairs as a marketing tool, window treatment professionals can unlock a steady stream of new opportunities. Ready to Explore New Growth Opportunities? If you’re looking for fresh ways to expand your window treatment business, consider blind cleaning as more than just a side service. At Window Treatment Marketing Pros, we help businesses uncover hidden revenue streams, build credibility, and attract long-term clients. Learn more or connect with Bert at: https://blindcleaners.biz/ Special Invite to Sun Shading Expo 2025 Heading to the Sun Shading Expo in Indianapolis this November 5–7? We’ve got you covered! Use code SSENA25WTMP when registering to claim your FREE admission ticket. Don’t miss this chance to connect with top industry leaders, see the latest innovations, and experience hands-on demos — all at no cost with our exclusive listener code. Other Notes/Links: pssst…. want to be a guest on the show? Listen to other episodes Subscribe to Marketing Panes for more expert insights, strategies, and real stories from across the window treatment and awning industry.Spotify: https://bit.ly/4j20C49Apple Podcast: https://bit.ly/4c2VN8s Video https://youtu.be/0WjqzBvBhqI Click here to display Transcript TRANSCRIPT Will Hanke (00:00)Hi, welcome to another episode of marketing panes the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers and business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. I’m your host, Will Hanke. Today we have another fantastic guest joining us for an interesting topic. Let me tell you if you’ve ever written off blind cleaning or repairs as low value work. this conversation might change your mind. From turning repairs into long-term clients to why cleaning is one of the most underused marketing tools in the industry, we will cover all of that today. My guest is Bert Bolton from the Blind Cleaners Network. Bert ‘s been in business for over 20 years and he’s built something that’s part training center, part network, and part. powerhouse support system for people in or entering the blind cleaning space. He has blended his expertise in the fields of education and cleaning to support a growing network of professionally minded blind and drapery cleaners. his facility is one place major fabricators like Hunter Douglas and Springs Window Fashions send new products or fabrics for test cleaning evaluations. Students from as far away as Australia also come to learn this niche of the cleaning world, whether it be ultrasonics or on-site fabric care. When not working, Bert and his wife Miriam enjoy their time on the water in kayaks, fishing, or sneaking away to visit their Idaho grandsons, who are not quite old enough to enjoy any of the things mentioned above unsupervised quite yet. Bert, thank you so much for being on the show today. I appreciate it. I love the outdoors thing. ⁓ I’m an outdoors guy myself ⁓ and waiting on the grandkids to get a little bit bigger as well. Bert Bolton (01:50)Thank you. Yeah, it’d fun to teach them to fish and do those things. Will Hanke (02:05)Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, thanks again for being on the show. I want to dig into the blind cleaners network a little bit later on, but for now, can you give us, tell me about your journey into the blind cleaning industry? How’d you get started 22 years ago and what drew you into this specialized niche? Bert Bolton (02:27)Well, at that time I was ⁓ leaving education. I was kind of at a crossroads looking for something to do in the area locally. So I was looking around for different opportunities and this little blind cleaning business was for sale. ⁓ Somebody just started it and they were going to retire in a few years. So they put it up for sale and I started investigating this little niche business and the more I kind of investigated it, the more intrigued I got by this specialty niche business versus just a bigger business like carpet cleaning or window cleaning or something that had a lot of competition. Will Hanke (03:07)Yeah, so when you started investigating it a little bit more, I guess you figured out it was a viable business model. ⁓ How did that evolve for you? Bert Bolton (03:17)Well, as I mentioned, it was just a small business they had started. At that point, you know, I saw the possibilities that, you know, you could build it into and grow it into a viable business. so, you know, I took a few years learning the tricks of the trade and taking the knocks in business. But, you know, that ramp to success isn’t straight line. It’s got ups and downs, but, you know, it’s been a good ride. Will Hanke (03:39)You Yeah. And then along the way, I guess you documented things, figured out what worked, what didn’t work. Bert Bolton (03:50)Yep, yep. I had no background in custom window treatments and so I had a lot to learn. Will Hanke (03:56)Yeah, yeah. And then you mentioned ⁓ earlier that you had 70 members in your network and you’re growing. What’s driving the ⁓ increased interest in professional blind cleaning right now? Bert Bolton (04:08)I kind of think kind of coming back off of COVID a few years ago and all, there’s a couple of different trends. People are kind of tired of big business or looking for opportunities outside of the corporate world. They’re out of just a pay per hour. So, you know, they’re looking for businesses that offer flexibility and good compensation. think also there’s owners of Some of these cleaning companies and restoration or even dry cleaners that as fewer people are wearing suits and ties to work, they’re looking for other revenue streams. So cross-selling customers with another service is good. And then finally, we’re seeing a lot of the decorators and retailers that realize that, you know, blind cleaning might not be as profitable as a transaction, but it is profitable as a business and it can boost sales and Keep employees busy in slow seasons and also helps with marketing. Will Hanke (05:10)Yeah, I like that. You mentioned cleaning and repair is kind like a door opener. Can you share what that means? Bert Bolton (05:16)Mm-hmm. Well, I think the big thing that people don’t realize is, you know, they look at fixing a cord on a lumenette may not be that big of a repair job, but I’ve known it to lead to $2,000 cleaning job. I know of many instances where doing a repair for a client gets us in the door for hundreds of dollars of blinds or thousands of blinds and commercial customers, all kinds of doors it opens. Will Hanke (05:46)Yeah, I’ve also heard people mention that getting in the door, like you said, with a repair type job can still turn into a five star review, ⁓ which obviously is a good thing to have as well. Bert Bolton (06:00)Oh yeah, yeah. We just had a job last week where a lady called us to clean her Luminette And I mean, I made another $500 cleaning the Luminette but in several hundred dollars doing some vignettes for her, but she was looking to get some new Nantucket shades. So we’re quoting her a bunch of new shades because we have a cleaning relationship and she’s done work with us. She wanted to, you know, check us out. Will Hanke (06:18)Okay. It makes sense. It’s an easy next step in a value ladder, right? You’re already in the home. You already have the trust. So that’s fantastic. I like that idea. You’ve also mentioned that it becomes a bit of ⁓ marketing tool to get into more high-end homes. Can you tell me a little bit more about that strategy? Bert Bolton (06:49)Well, the best example would be one of the decorators in DC area that came to us number of years ago for training. And she wanted to get in these high end homes and ⁓ somebody called her about cleaning half a dozen silhouettes. She went in there as one of the first jobs as they just finished training and ⁓ clean these six silhouettes. She got talking to the homeowner and they were remodeling one of the wings of this mansion. She, as a decorator, started giving the lady a few bits of advice and they hit it off. in the first year, she came back to tell us later, they did $100,000 worth of work with that lady. I mean, just because of six blinds that, you know, it wasn’t her customer, but it was her ideal client and she was in the home. Will Hanke (07:32)That’s awesome. Wow. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Now a lot of window treatment dealers kind of hesitate at offering the cleaning side of things typically because of the lower profit margins. How could they see the bigger picture like you just explained? Bert Bolton (07:54)Well, you know, some think of commercial jobs like mini blinds and stuff, but I know a school district that years ago we lost the bid to put new blinds in that building. But since I have a relationship with that district that came through doing a few repairs, ⁓ we’ve cleaned those same blinds in that school every three to four years now and made money off those blinds, know, thousands of dollars for a day or two’s work multiple times, you know. And then like you just mentioned, I mentioned this other story, that lady in DC area now has several crews cleaning. She’s bought more machines and she’s got crews cleaning and it’s because she recognized the marketing value. Will Hanke (08:39)Yeah, yeah. So ⁓ I’m assuming our listeners, or lot of our listeners are window treatment dealers. Are there instances where they just would like subcontract her out to do that piece of the work? Bert Bolton (08:51)Well, they could. Some of the cleaners operate as independent businesses. Some of the cleaners get a relationship with, like I said, their janitorial or their dry cleaners and they just provide a cleaning service. And if they get networked with a blind cleaner and they’re passing referrals back and forth, it leads to a lot of business. mean, I work with a whole bunch of decorators in our area and we pass a lot of business back to them. Will Hanke (08:58)Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I can definitely see the value there ⁓ for business owners that can look a little bit longer term overall. Definitely. Bert Bolton (09:27)Because it’s like you’re in the home, you’re working on it. A lot of the older blinds or drapery even, you inspect it and say, I can’t clean this, it needs to be replaced. And they say, well, who do you recommend, you know? And if I’m in there as a referral for that company, I’m going to refer that company. But if it’s an open referral, then obviously I’m going to refer the companies that work with me. Will Hanke (09:40)Yeah. Right, for sure. Yeah. So speaking of companies that work with you, tell us a little bit about Blind Cleaners Network. Who is it for? How does it work? Bert Bolton (10:02)It’s a network for the professionally minded blind cleaners. Our goal really is to be a support to the trade, helping those that want to learn how to do this professionally. We also network with the fabricators like Hunter Douglas and Springs window fashions ⁓ that are looking for how to best clean their window treatments. They like to sell them, but they know that at some point they’re gonna need cleaning or accidents happen. And then also we’re helping to connect the cleaners to the consumers because these companies refer our network. And so it channels their referrals right back to the members. Will Hanke (10:43)I love it. So it’s a membership based program. Tell me a little bit about that. Bert Bolton (10:47)Yes. Well, we have members that join the network and support us and they get ⁓ support through materials we’ve got. Some of the things we provide are free. You don’t have to be a member, but if you want to be in the referral program, it’s part of that’s just the training and certification that we offer so that these companies are assured that the technicians or the people doing the cleaning understand the best practices for. how to do things. Will Hanke (11:16)Yeah, you mentioned training. What kind of training do you guys typically provide that people would probably tend to overlook? Bert Bolton (11:25)Well, you know, there, people tend to think that some of this is just, you know, a spray and suck it off or wipe it down or things like that. And some of these different window treatments, but they don’t understand the, some of these are well-made products, but they’re delicate and there are proper ways to clean them and you can quickly ruin them if you don’t know what you’re doing. So we offer training at our facility or we offer resources online and. membership side of our website to help those doing this understand what’s the best practices. Will Hanke (11:56)Okay. Nice, so they can get a lot of training just online, but they could also potentially actually visit you at your facility. Okay, ⁓ what does a typical training session look like at the facility and ⁓ what are people maybe most surprised to learn there? Bert Bolton (12:08)Right, correct. Well, you everybody has different learning styles, but we use a mix of training when people come in. I’ve got a conference room that, you know, we’ll go through presentations on the screen and show pictures to tell stories and kind of help people understand things and make sure they understand the different products and the best practices. But we’re also home to my local shop, which is an operating full-time blind and drapery cleaning business. So when we’re out in the shop they’re actually hands-on with all the equipment and an operating shop so it’s not just a staged dog and pony show as it were it’s like an operating shop they can see real world ideas they can ask questions they get hands-on Will Hanke (13:06)like that. How often do you host these or the are they one-off events or do you just do it like a couple times a year? Bert Bolton (13:14)We have a schedule where we offer four to five times a year, different types of training, whether it’s ultrasonic or injection extraction, but then we also offer custom training like I just had one the other day for a company that send their employees in and we can customize the training to what they need to learn. Will Hanke (13:35)Oh, that’s great. So you can. Bert Bolton (13:36)I mean they may already have a background in window treatments or they may know something or they may be just somebody doesn’t know anything and then we got to start from scratch. Will Hanke (13:47)Yeah, that was my next question. What was, what is the percentage or do you know of, of like current dealers that just want to add this on versus somebody who’s maybe like you were 22 years ago where you’re just like, I should buy this. Bert Bolton (14:01)It’s probably about half and half. And we’ll have a lot of even experienced cleaners if they’re dabbling in cleaning or been doing cleaning, they’ll send their techs to get trained because I teach a comprehensive background of how to do it. And it’s kind of brand neutral and equipment neutral, if you will. I’m not trying to sell a certain chemistry, a certain product. I’m trying to teach them the best practices. And of course, as you know, A lot of these treatments have a bunch of different names, but it’s the same kind of products. Will Hanke (14:35)Yeah. And you mentioned you have people that come in, not just window treatment related dealers, but restoration companies. That’s a great value add for them as well. Bert Bolton (14:46)Yes, yes, a lot of them it’s a niche business so if they don’t understand how to clean window treatments or the value of the custom window treatments a lot of them aren’t doing it and they’re really just throwing away or bypassing money they could be earning. Will Hanke (14:59)Yeah. From a dealer standpoint, you could always partner up with a restoration business in town and say, by the way, we can, we can add this on and, ⁓ share the revenue or something. don’t know. Bert Bolton (15:05)Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, what happens is if you have a restoration job, it’s pre-loss condition. And if you can’t, it’s a total loss. Well, they don’t know window treatment. So if you’re a dealer, you right there can say, well, we can replace that, you know. So you’re selling them new to replace what you couldn’t clean. It’s a win-win. Will Hanke (15:26)Yeah. Yeah. It is. Yeah. And smart business owners should always be looking for those joint venture opportunities anyway, right? Yeah. So ⁓ for window treatment dealers listening who might be considering adding cleaning services, what is your advice for them to get started? Bert Bolton (15:37)Mm. I would say the best thing is just we have a free newsletter that out once a month, the email. And ⁓ there’s a few articles on our website, the blindcleaners.biz. So they could just email us ⁓ to sign up for the newsletter. If they’re really serious about it, then ⁓ become a member. You can do monthly. So just start learning about the industry. I would really… them to talk to us and learn a little more about it get their questions answered before they go buying any expensive equipment because I’ve seen a lot of people waste a lot of money and then figured out too late they didn’t need that. Will Hanke (16:30)Yeah, yeah. So research, filling your head with knowledge really is the first step. Bert Bolton (16:37)Yes, correct. Because there’s a lot of misunderstandings out there and there’s a lot of wrong perceptions that, like I said, people chase something and don’t realize that’s not really the best fit for their business maybe or what they want to do. Will Hanke (16:53)Yeah, okay. You mentioned equipment and investment. ⁓ Does it require a big investment to get started with a lot of equipment or how does that work? Bert Bolton (17:05)Well, there’s two types of equipment in this business. Injection extraction cleaning machines, they do fabric window treatments or to do drapery and the high-end treatments. Those little machines are about $5,000. So if you buy one that can do wet and dry cleaning, you’re looking at a, you know, not too big of an investment. The ultrasonic cleaning that does like mini blinds and faux woods and some of the fabric blinds, anything that can be immersed in water. Those machines, new costs 20, 30, $40,000, but there’s a lot of used ones out there for 5- $10,000. Will Hanke (17:49)Okay, all right, so there’s a little bit of an investment to get started, but I’m assuming ⁓ maybe not a direct payoff just from the cleaning, and maybe there is down the road, but like you said, you still get your foot in the door, right? Bert Bolton (17:53)Mm-hmm. Yeah, I would encourage people to just, you know, they can buy good used equipment or they could, if they’re going to just do one thing, get the machine that’ll let them do wet and dry cleaning fabrics, because that’s good money. And then they can grow into it and buy more if they find that it’s, you know, worth the investment. Will Hanke (18:17)Yeah. Okay. ⁓ what is the, ratio, for the people that come through, maybe some of your training that do residential versus commercial. Bert Bolton (18:35)Most people do residential work, but there’s some that do commercial work, dedicated commercial work. But most of the companies that learn the cleaning end up doing a lot of residential, but then commercial too. mean, it depends on what their business model is. In our case, we do it full time and we do. both and it just ebbs and flows during the year and the seasons. Will Hanke (19:03)Yeah, yeah, I’d say most of our our clients are doing residential window treatment installs. But at the same time, a lot of them also want to get into the commercial side of things because the maybe the the overall profit margins are smaller, but the jobs are a lot bigger. So I see getting, you know, doing the same thing for the cleaning side, like you mentioned the school earlier, right? ⁓ That’s true. Bert Bolton (19:10)Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, well what’s happened with us and then tomorrow I’m going up to a Catholic school to consult with them and it started with a cleaning relationship doing some shears but now they need to replace all the blinds or the shears. They’re going to replace them with roller shades but they don’t know where to start. So I can go consult with them. I can show them everything and I could even bid several different dealers if I want to, but basically it’s me, me or me that they’re going to look at. And the profit margin there is a lot better than I’m not competing against three other unknown bidders for the lowest price. Will Hanke (19:59)Yeah. All right, yeah. Yeah, I’ve also spoken to people in the past who did ⁓ restaurants, you know, because they needed, you know, there was a mandate or something that they had to have those cleaned every so often. So. Bert Bolton (20:19)Right. Yeah, there’s some restaurant chains that require every four times a year or something. We’ve got some commercial jobs that we do because of in the medical field that they’ve got to have certain things clean twice a year or four times a year. Will Hanke (20:36)Okay. And one last comment on this. know that there are government contract opportunities as well for some of this stuff. Bert Bolton (20:45)Yes, yes, there’s some niche. There’s even niches within this niche that we could chase that some of them right now are evolving opportunities. mean, aircraft control tower blinds is a whole special niche, but people don’t even think about it. But it’s just knowing where to bid, who to bid, what to do. Will Hanke (20:51)Right? No. Yeah, yeah, so I can see this as a great add on, especially for, like you said, the ebbs and flows, the seasonality of window treatments. It’s a fantastic additional revenue stream. Bert Bolton (21:22)Yeah, well, it’s like you mentioned a minute ago, there’s a senior community near us that, you know, we get introduced to them by doing a couple repairs or cleaning a few blinds, but then they’ve got valences and drapes throughout the facility that need to be cleaned. And once you get a relationship with them, and then when they come time to do remodeling or updates, if you happen to be a decorator or you happen to be selling that kind of stuff, I mean, you’re right there in the front row. Will Hanke (21:44)yeah. Yeah, fantastic. ⁓ So a couple of fun questions for you. ⁓ Is there a worst mistake you’ve seen someone make when cleaning blinds? Bert Bolton (22:01)The one that comes to mind right away is a cleaner in a major city. think it was like Cleveland or Cincinnati years ago that just got into the ultrasonic cleaning business and they got a job to clean all the blinds on all the floors of a big building downtown and apparently didn’t really know what they were doing and they they clean the blinds wrong and damage the paint on the blinds on a whole floor of one of the buildings and ⁓ Will Hanke (22:30)don’t know. Bert Bolton (22:32)Of course that was a disaster because they not only lost that job, but they just blew their reputation in that whole downtown market. Because word spreads fast if you don’t really know what you’re doing, you know, if you’re damaging things. Will Hanke (22:41)Yeah, yeah. Wow, that’s… Yeah. And, this is a great opportunity, you know, for, for people to take some of your knowledge and some of those studies, you know, so that they don’t make, those same types of mistakes. Bert Bolton (22:56)Mm-hmm. Yeah, we’ve been there, done that, or we know of those mistakes. And that’s where, you know, simple green takes the color out of certain blinds, you know, it’s like, or laundry soap is good for laundry, but it’s not designed for some of these other things. Will Hanke (23:15)That’s great. Yeah. Yeah. You wouldn’t want me to do it because I would just do water and bleach or something. I don’t even know what I would do. Yeah. Bert Bolton (23:21)Yeah, well bleach is a great example. There’s a lot of what you see on the internet, even on the decorator websites. It just makes me roll over. I have to hold my tongue. Will Hanke (23:32)Yeah, yeah. Is there a type of window treatment that you just hate to clean? Bert Bolton (23:38)It’s gotta be the, some of the specialty blinds that have come out. Hunter Douglas had some that were only in production for a few years. They’re just not designed for real world cleaning or real world life, like the Aluettes and trios and things. The veins are kind of like an airplane wing and they’re just not. And then a greasy micro mini blind over a kitchen sink is probably the worst. Will Hanke (23:56)Yeah. Bert Bolton (24:08)you Will Hanke (24:09)yeah, I can imagine so. Bert Bolton (24:11)not worth cleaning. You know, it’s the results and what’s going to happen and all, it’s just not worth it. Will Hanke (24:17)yeah, all the effort required just to get it done. Bert Bolton (24:19)Yeah, versus the real rewards in the some of the nicer high-end products. I mean, they’re easier to clean in a lot of ways, which they’re easy to clean and they’re better money. And some of the basic drapery valances, you know, they clean up really well and you get a happy customer. They’re not hard work and you get a really good paycheck. Will Hanke (24:39)Nice. ⁓ So speaking of paychecks, you share just some generic numbers on, let’s say, a residential job? Bert Bolton (24:51)It’s not unusual like when we’re talking about blind and drapery cleaning, rule of thumb, and this is just rule of thumb because across different markets the prices vary, usually 10 to 20 % of retail value would be an average number for cleaning. So if something’s $2,000, then getting $200 to $400 to clean it wouldn’t be unheard of in some markets even higher. Will Hanke (25:20)Okay. Bert Bolton (25:21)And then if you’re doing some blinds, you know, it’s a commodity. other words, a mini blind for a school might be $25, $30 a blind or a shade in a hospital might be $30 to $50 a shade to clean. And it’s just volume. You crank out so many per hour, but in drapery, stage drapes and other things, I mean, it could be very lucrative. Will Hanke (25:45)Yeah, yeah, interesting. If you set it up right, I could see some benefits. I just called a pest control company and I think it was 250 bucks for them to come out to the house the first time. But as soon as I set that appointment, they said, by the way, we can come out, you know, four times a year for, I don’t know, 99 bucks a visit or something like that, right? So before I know it, I’m signed up for $600 a year, you know, and they’re just gonna show up, do the thing and take off. Bert Bolton (26:07)huh. Mm-hmm. Will Hanke (26:14)having that recurring revenue for them, I mean, it was fantastic for them, right? Bert Bolton (26:18)Yeah, yeah, yeah, but that’s you bring up a good point there. These retailers that understand cleaning or use cleaning as a sales leader, they include the first cleaning. If you clean within the first two years or three years, the first cleaning is free. And then, you know, they’ll keep, you know, let’s get a maintenance program. We’ll come back every three years or every two years to clean. ⁓ And the idea being obviously, they’re in the home and they’re gonna make cross sales of other things. For us, you inspect the blind, the older blinds, I mean, you’ve gotta say, hey, this is too risky to clean or it’s gonna fall apart, you’re gonna need a new one. And so you’re in the house with a relationship to sell them the new one. Will Hanke (27:03)Yeah, yeah, so that’s interesting. The people that are that you’re hiring, if it’s not you as the business owner, you have somebody going out to do the cleaning. I’m assuming they need a little bit of sales training slash knowledge as well. Bert Bolton (27:18)Well, they need to be familiar with the different types of products and obviously which ones would be, you know, dangerous to clean because they might fall apart or the fabric obviously has got too much damage from age or UV or whatever. And so, you know, they need to recognize that, but they don’t, you know, if they’re working in conjunction with your sales team or somebody, then obviously they’re just handing it off for saying, you know, this person is the one to talk to. Will Hanke (27:50)Yeah, yeah, at least refer the lead over. So is there a window treatment that you really like is your favorite to clean or a certain type? Bert Bolton (28:02)I like seeing results. It’s just nice to see results and some of the blinds like the silhouettes, some of the sheer shades are really nice because you can see such a transformation. People don’t realize over the years how much dirt they do pick up because they’re on window air filters, but when you get them clean, then they’re just like, wow, you know. Will Hanke (28:14)yeah. Yeah, yeah, and they probably feel good because that’s an investment that they didn’t have to rebuy, right? Bert Bolton (28:30)Oh yeah, yeah, and you always show them the dirt, you know, take a picture, show them if you’re cleaning in the house, it’s easy because you’ve got that bucket with dirty dry cleaning or dirty wet cleaning solution. Will Hanke (28:43)Yep, yep, makes sense. So speaking of cleaning gadgets, what’s one cleaning tool or gadget that you swear by no matter how ridiculous it looks? Bert Bolton (28:52)Cut off a Hunter Douglas mini blind wand, a hollow wand, and then you jam in a cut off toothbrush. So you’ve got a toothbrush on the end of a long clear wand and then you can reach in and get the little fuzzy bugs or lint or things out of silhouettes or honeycomb shades or whatever. It gives you little tool to do a bunch of different tasks with. Will Hanke (29:20)I love that, yeah. It just a toothbrush head and a mini blind wand that’s a great one. That’s great. Well, cool. Thank you so much for sharing information about the, especially about the Blind Cleaners Network. I really enjoyed that. Can you tell me where people can go to learn more about this? Bert Bolton (29:21)but it’s just a toothbrush head on a mini blind wand. They just go to our website blindcleaners.biz We have a website with a few general articles for the public. And then obviously we’re still, it’s a fairly new website, so we’re still adding information, but we have schedules of training and other things. They just contact us directly. Will Hanke (29:57)good. Okay, yeah, they can go to the website if they have more questions, contact you to learn more about that. So we’ll put all that in the show notes so that you can access that later. ⁓ Any last thoughts for the professionals that are trying to grow in this industry? Bert Bolton (30:18)The big thing I think some of them miss is that if they’re part of a professional network, part of it is raising the professionalism as being part of a group adds credibility. You know, they’re recognized and the Hunter Douglas and Springs and the others say, hey, you know, these people have got more credibility because they’ve had a training or have the knowledge that we understand. And the other thing is it helps them if they’re going to some of these other referral sources to be able to say, I’m part of this professional network. It sets them at a higher standard, just like any certification or specialization. Will Hanke (30:54)Yeah. Makes sense, yeah. Well, again, Bert, thank you so much. It’s been an incredible conversation. If you have been thinking about adding cleaning as part of the services or you’re already in the industry, I hope that you were able to learn maybe a thing or two. ⁓ If you’ve even got one idea or useful strategy out of the conversation, do us a favor and send this to a friend in the trade. I would appreciate it. ⁓ Bert , thank you so much for being on today. I really do appreciate your time. Yeah, no problem. If you want to hear more episodes like this, don’t forget to follow and subscribe, share it with a colleague and check out the rest of our marketing panes episodes and we’ll catch you on the next one. Bert Bolton (31:28)thank you, Will. All right, thank you. TRANSCRIPT Will Hanke (00:00)Hi, welcome to another episode of marketing panes the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers and business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. I’m your host, Will Hanke. Today we have another fantastic guest joining us for an interesting topic. Let me tell you if you’ve ever written off blind cleaning or repairs as low value work. this conversation might change your mind. From turning repairs into long-term clients to why cleaning is one of the most underused marketing tools in the industry, we will cover all of that today. My guest is Bert Bolton from the Blind Cleaners Network. Bert ‘s been in business for over 20 years and he’s built something that’s part training center, part network, and part. powerhouse support system for people in or entering the blind cleaning space. He has blended his expertise in the fields of education and cleaning to support a growing network of professionally minded blind and drapery cleaners. his facility is one place major fabricators like Hunter Douglas and Springs Window Fashions send new products or fabrics for test cleaning evaluations. Students from as far away as Australia also come to learn this niche of the cleaning world, whether it be ultrasonics or on-site fabric care. When not working, Bert and his wife Miriam enjoy their time on the water in kayaks, fishing, or sneaking away to visit their Idaho grandsons, who are not quite old enough to enjoy any of the things mentioned above unsupervised quite yet. Bert, thank you so much for being on the show today. I appreciate it. I love the outdoors thing. ⁓ I’m an outdoors guy myself ⁓ and waiting on the grandkids to get a little bit bigger as well. Bert Bolton (01:50)Thank you. Yeah, it’d fun to teach them to fish and do those things. Will Hanke (02:05)Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, thanks again for being on the show. I want to dig into the blind cleaners network a little bit later on, but for now, can you give us, tell me about your journey into the blind cleaning industry? How’d you get started 22 years ago and what drew you into this specialized niche? Bert Bolton (02:27)Well, at that time I was ⁓ leaving education. I was kind of at a crossroads looking for something to do in the area locally. So I was looking around for different opportunities and this little blind cleaning business was for sale. ⁓ Somebody just started it and they were going to retire in a few years. So they put it up for sale and I started investigating this little niche business and the more I kind of investigated it, the more intrigued I got by this specialty niche business versus just a bigger business like carpet cleaning or window cleaning or something that had a lot of competition. Will Hanke (03:07)Yeah, so when you started investigating it a little bit more, I guess you figured out it was a viable business model. ⁓ How did that evolve for you? Bert Bolton (03:17)Well, as I mentioned, it was just a small business they had started. At that point, you know, I saw the possibilities that, you know, you could build it into and grow it into a viable business. so, you know, I took a few years learning the tricks of the trade and taking the knocks in business. But, you know, that ramp to success isn’t straight line. It’s got ups and downs, but, you know, it’s been a good ride. Will Hanke (03:39)You Yeah. And then along the way, I guess you documented things, figured out what worked, what didn’t work. Bert Bolton (03:50)Yep, yep. I had no background in custom window treatments and so I had a lot to learn. Will Hanke (03:56)Yeah, yeah. And then you mentioned ⁓ earlier that you had 70 members in your network and you’re growing. What’s driving the ⁓ increased interest in professional blind cleaning right now? Bert Bolton (04:08)I kind of think kind of coming back off of COVID a few years ago and all, there’s a couple of different trends. People are kind of tired of big business or looking for opportunities outside of the corporate world. They’re out of just a pay per hour. So, you know, they’re looking for businesses that offer flexibility and good compensation. think also there’s owners of Some of these cleaning companies and restoration or even dry cleaners that as fewer people are wearing suits and ties to work, they’re looking for other revenue streams. So cross-selling customers with another service is good. And then finally, we’re seeing a lot of the decorators and retailers that realize that, you know, blind cleaning might not be as profitable as a transaction, but it is profitable as a business and it can boost sales and Keep employees busy in slow seasons and also helps with marketing. Will Hanke (05:10)Yeah, I like that. You mentioned cleaning and repair is kind like a door opener. Can you share what that means? Bert Bolton (05:16)Mm-hmm. Well, I think the big thing that people don’t realize is, you know, they look at fixing a cord on a lumenette may not be that big of a repair job, but I’ve known it to lead to $2,000 cleaning job. I know of many instances where doing a repair for a client gets us in the door for hundreds of dollars of blinds or thousands of blinds and commercial customers, all kinds of doors it opens. Will Hanke (05:46)Yeah, I’ve also heard people mention that getting in the door, like you said, with a repair type job can still turn into a five star review, ⁓ which obviously is a good thing to have as well. Bert Bolton (06:00)Oh yeah, yeah. We just had a job last week where a lady called us to clean her Luminette And I mean, I made another $500 cleaning the Luminette but in several hundred dollars doing some vignettes for her, but she was looking to get some new Nantucket shades. So we’re quoting her a bunch of new shades because we have a cleaning relationship and she’s done work with us. She wanted to, you know, check us out. Will Hanke (06:18)Okay. It makes sense. It’s an easy next step in a value ladder, right? You’re already in the home. You already have the trust. So that’s fantastic. I like that idea. You’ve also mentioned that it becomes a bit of ⁓ marketing tool to get into more high-end homes. Can you tell me a little bit more about that strategy? Bert Bolton (06:49)Well, the best example would be one of the decorators in DC area that came to us number of years ago for training. And she wanted to get in these high end homes and ⁓ somebody called her about cleaning half a dozen silhouettes. She went in there as one of the first jobs as they just finished training and ⁓ clean these six silhouettes. She got talking to the homeowner and they were remodeling one of the wings of this mansion. She, as a decorator, started giving the lady a few bits of advice and they hit it off. in the first year, she came back to tell us later, they did $100,000 worth of work with that lady. I mean, just because of six blinds that, you know, it wasn’t her customer, but it was her ideal client and she was in the home. Will Hanke (07:32)That’s awesome. Wow. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Now a lot of window treatment dealers kind of hesitate at offering the cleaning side of things typically because of the lower profit margins. How could they see the bigger picture like you just explained? Bert Bolton (07:54)Well, you know, some think of commercial jobs like mini blinds and stuff, but I know a school district that years ago we lost the bid to put new blinds in that building. But since I have a relationship with that district that came through doing a few repairs, ⁓ we’ve cleaned those same blinds in that school every three to four years now and made money off those blinds, know, thousands of dollars for a day or two’s work multiple times, you know. And then like you just mentioned, I mentioned this other story, that lady in DC area now has several crews cleaning. She’s bought more machines and she’s got crews cleaning and it’s because she recognized the marketing value. Will Hanke (08:39)Yeah, yeah. So ⁓ I’m assuming our listeners, or lot of our listeners are window treatment dealers. Are there instances where they just would like subcontract her out to do that piece of the work? Bert Bolton (08:51)Well, they could. Some of the cleaners operate as independent businesses. Some of the cleaners get a relationship with, like I said, their janitorial or their dry cleaners and they just provide a cleaning service. And if they get networked with a blind cleaner and they’re passing referrals back and forth, it leads to a lot of business. mean, I work with a whole bunch of decorators in our area and we pass a lot of business back to them. Will Hanke (08:58)Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I can definitely see the value there ⁓ for business owners that can look a little bit longer term overall. Definitely. Bert Bolton (09:27)Because it’s like you’re in the home, you’re working on it. A lot of the older blinds or drapery even, you inspect it and say, I can’t clean this, it needs to be replaced. And they say, well, who do you recommend, you know? And if I’m in there as a referral for that company, I’m going to refer that company. But if it’s an open referral, then obviously I’m going to refer the companies that work with me. Will Hanke (09:40)Yeah. Right, for sure. Yeah. So speaking of companies that work with you, tell us a little bit about Blind Cleaners Network. Who is it for? How does it work? Bert Bolton (10:02)It’s a network for the professionally minded blind cleaners. Our goal really is to be a support to the trade, helping those that want to learn how to do this professionally. We also network with the fabricators like Hunter Douglas and Springs window fashions ⁓ that are looking for how to best clean their window treatments. They like to sell them, but they know that at some point they’re gonna need cleaning or accidents happen. And then also we’re helping to connect the cleaners to the consumers because these companies refer our network. And so it channels their referrals right back to the members. Will Hanke (10:43)I love it. So it’s a membership based program. Tell me a little bit about that. Bert Bolton (10:47)Yes. Well, we have members that join the network and support us and they get ⁓ support through materials we’ve got. Some of the things we provide are free. You don’t have to be a member, but if you want to be in the referral program, it’s part of that’s just the training and certification that we offer so that these companies are assured that the technicians or the people doing the cleaning understand the best practices for. how to do things. Will Hanke (11:16)Yeah, you mentioned training. What kind of training do you guys typically provide that people would probably tend to overlook? Bert Bolton (11:25)Well, you know, there, people tend to think that some of this is just, you know, a spray and suck it off or wipe it down or things like that. And some of these different window treatments, but they don’t understand the, some of these are well-made products, but they’re delicate and there are proper ways to clean them and you can quickly ruin them if you don’t know what you’re doing. So we offer training at our facility or we offer resources online and. membership side of our website to help those doing this understand what’s the best practices. Will Hanke (11:56)Okay. Nice, so they can get a lot of training just online, but they could also potentially actually visit you at your facility. Okay, ⁓ what does a typical training session look like at the facility and ⁓ what are people maybe most surprised to learn there? Bert Bolton (12:08)Right, correct. Well, you everybody has different learning styles, but we use a mix of training when people come in. I’ve got a conference room that, you know, we’ll go through presentations on the screen and show pictures to tell stories and kind of help people understand things and make sure they understand the different products and the best practices. But we’re also home to my local shop, which is an operating full-time blind and drapery cleaning business. So when we’re out in the shop they’re actually hands-on with all the equipment and an operating shop so it’s not just a staged dog and pony show as it were it’s like an operating shop they can see real world ideas they can ask questions they get hands-on Will Hanke (13:06)like that. How often do you host these or the are they one-off events or do you just do it like a couple times a year? Bert Bolton (13:14)We have a schedule where we offer four to five times a year, different types of training, whether it’s ultrasonic or injection extraction, but then we also offer custom training like I just had one the other day for a company that send their employees in and we can customize the training to what they need to learn. Will Hanke (13:35)Oh, that’s great. So you can. Bert Bolton (13:36)I mean they may already have a background in window treatments or they may know something or they may be just somebody doesn’t know anything and then we got to start from scratch. Will Hanke (13:47)Yeah, that was my next question. What was, what is the percentage or do you know of, of like current dealers that just want to add this on versus somebody who’s maybe like you were 22 years ago where you’re just like, I should buy this. Bert Bolton (14:01)It’s probably about half and half. And we’ll have a lot of even experienced cleaners if they’re dabbling in cleaning or been doing cleaning, they’ll send their techs to get trained because I teach a comprehensive background of how to do it. And it’s kind of brand neutral and equipment neutral, if you will. I’m not trying to sell a certain chemistry, a certain product. I’m trying to teach them the best practices. And of course, as you know, A lot of these treatments have a bunch of different names, but it’s the same kind of products. Will Hanke (14:35)Yeah. And you mentioned you have people that come in, not just window treatment related dealers, but restoration companies. That’s a great value add for them as well. Bert Bolton (14:46)Yes, yes, a lot of them it’s a niche business so if they don’t understand how to clean window treatments or the value of the custom window treatments a lot of them aren’t doing it and they’re really just throwing away or bypassing money they could be earning. Will Hanke (14:59)Yeah. From a dealer standpoint, you could always partner up with a restoration business in town and say, by the way, we can, we can add this on and, ⁓ share the revenue or something. don’t know. Bert Bolton (15:05)Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, what happens is if you have a restoration job, it’s pre-loss condition. And if you can’t, it’s a total loss. Well, they don’t know window treatment. So if you’re a dealer, you right there can say, well, we can replace that, you know. So you’re selling them new to replace what you couldn’t clean. It’s a win-win. Will Hanke (15:26)Yeah. Yeah. It is. Yeah. And smart business owners should always be looking for those joint venture opportunities anyway, right? Yeah. So ⁓ for window treatment dealers listening who might be considering adding cleaning services, what is your advice for them to get started? Bert Bolton (15:37)Mm. I would say the best thing is just we have a free newsletter that out once a month, the email. And ⁓ there’s a few articles on our website, the blindcleaners.biz. So they could just email us ⁓ to sign up for the newsletter. If they’re really serious about it, then ⁓ become a member. You can do monthly. So just start learning about the industry. I would really… them to talk to us and learn a little more about it get their questions answered before they go buying any expensive equipment because I’ve seen a lot of people waste a lot of money and then figured out too late they didn’t need that. Will Hanke (16:30)Yeah, yeah. So research, filling your head with knowledge really is the first step. Bert Bolton (16:37)Yes, correct. Because there’s a lot of misunderstandings out there and there’s a lot of wrong perceptions that, like I said, people chase something and don’t realize that’s not really the best fit for their business maybe or what they want to do. Will Hanke (16:53)Yeah, okay. You mentioned equipment and investment. ⁓ Does it require a big investment to get started with a lot of equipment or how does that work? Bert Bolton (17:05)Well, there’s two types of equipment in this business. Injection extraction cleaning machines, they do fabric window treatments or to do drapery and the high-end treatments. Those little machines are about $5,000. So if you buy one that can do wet and dry cleaning, you’re looking at a, you know, not too big of an investment. The ultrasonic cleaning that does like mini blinds and faux woods and some of the fabric blinds, anything that can be immersed in water. Those machines, new costs 20, 30, $40,000, but there’s a lot of used ones out there for 5- $10,000. Will Hanke (17:49)Okay, all right, so there’s a little bit of an investment to get started, but I’m assuming ⁓ maybe not a direct payoff just from the cleaning, and maybe there is down the road, but like you said, you still get your foot in the door, right? Bert Bolton (17:53)Mm-hmm. Yeah, I would encourage people to just, you know, they can buy good used equipment or they could, if they’re going to just do one thing, get the machine that’ll let them do wet and dry cleaning fabrics, because that’s good money. And then they can grow into it and buy more if they find that it’s, you know, worth the investment. Will Hanke (18:17)Yeah. Okay. ⁓ what is the, ratio, for the people that come through, maybe some of your training that do residential versus commercial. Bert Bolton (18:35)Most people do residential work, but there’s some that do commercial work, dedicated commercial work. But most of the companies that learn the cleaning end up doing a lot of residential, but then commercial too. mean, it depends on what their business model is. In our case, we do it full time and we do. both and it just ebbs and flows during the year and the seasons. Will Hanke (19:03)Yeah, yeah, I’d say most of our our clients are doing residential window treatment installs. But at the same time, a lot of them also want to get into the commercial side of things because the maybe the the overall profit margins are smaller, but the jobs are a lot bigger. So I see getting, you know, doing the same thing for the cleaning side, like you mentioned the school earlier, right? ⁓ That’s true. Bert Bolton (19:10)Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, well what’s happened with us and then tomorrow I’m going up to a Catholic school to consult with them and it started with a cleaning relationship doing some shears but now they need to replace all the blinds or the shears. They’re going to replace them with roller shades but they don’t know where to start. So I can go consult with them. I can show them everything and I could even bid several different dealers if I want to, but basically it’s me, me or me that they’re going to look at. And the profit margin there is a lot better than I’m not competing against three other unknown bidders for the lowest price. Will Hanke (19:59)Yeah. All right, yeah. Yeah, I’ve also spoken to people in the past who did ⁓ restaurants, you know, because they needed, you know, there was a mandate or something that they had to have those cleaned every so often. So. Bert Bolton (20:19)Right. Yeah, there’s some restaurant chains that require every four times a year or something. We’ve got some commercial jobs that we do because of in the medical field that they’ve got to have certain things clean twice a year or four times a year. Will Hanke (20:36)Okay. And one last comment on this. know that there are government contract opportunities as well for some of this stuff. Bert Bolton (20:45)Yes, yes, there’s some niche. There’s even niches within this niche that we could chase that some of them right now are evolving opportunities. mean, aircraft control tower blinds is a whole special niche, but people don’t even think about it. But it’s just knowing where to bid, who to bid, what to do. Will Hanke (20:51)Right? No. Yeah, yeah, so I can see this as a great add on, especially for, like you said, the ebbs and flows, the seasonality of window treatments. It’s a fantastic additional revenue stream. Bert Bolton (21:22)Yeah, well, it’s like you mentioned a minute ago, there’s a senior community near us that, you know, we get introduced to them by doing a couple repairs or cleaning a few blinds, but then they’ve got valences and drapes throughout the facility that need to be cleaned. And once you get a relationship with them, and then when they come time to do remodeling or updates, if you happen to be a decorator or you happen to be selling that kind of stuff, I mean, you’re right there in the front row. Will Hanke (21:44)yeah. Yeah, fantastic. ⁓ So a couple of fun questions for you. ⁓ Is there a worst mistake you’ve seen someone make when cleaning blinds? Bert Bolton (22:01)The one that comes to mind right away is a cleaner in a major city. think it was like Cleveland or Cincinnati years ago that just got into the ultrasonic cleaning business and they got a job to clean all the blinds on all the floors of a big building downtown and apparently didn’t really know what they were doing and they they clean the blinds wrong and damage the paint on the blinds on a whole floor of one of the buildings and ⁓ Will Hanke (22:30)don’t know. Bert Bolton (22:32)Of course that was a disaster because they not only lost that job, but they just blew their reputation in that whole downtown market. Because word spreads fast if you don’t really know what you’re doing, you know, if you’re damaging things. Will Hanke (22:41)Yeah, yeah. Wow, that’s… Yeah. And, this is a great opportunity, you know, for, for people to take some of your knowledge and some of those studies, you know, so that they don’t make, those same types of mistakes. Bert Bolton (22:56)Mm-hmm. Yeah, we’ve been there, done that, or we know of those mistakes. And that’s where, you know, simple green takes the color out of certain blinds, you know, it’s like, or laundry soap is good for laundry, but it’s not designed for some of these other things. Will Hanke (23:15)That’s great. Yeah. Yeah. You wouldn’t want me to do it because I would just do water and bleach or something. I don’t even know what I would do. Yeah. Bert Bolton (23:21)Yeah, well bleach is a great example. There’s a lot of what you see on the internet, even on the decorator websites. It just makes me roll over. I have to hold my tongue. Will Hanke (23:32)Yeah, yeah. Is there a type of window treatment that you just hate to clean? Bert Bolton (23:38)It’s gotta be the, some of the specialty blinds that have come out. Hunter Douglas had some that were only in production for a few years. They’re just not designed for real world cleaning or real world life, like the Aluettes and trios and things. The veins are kind of like an airplane wing and they’re just not. And then a greasy micro mini blind over a kitchen sink is probably the worst. Will Hanke (23:56)Yeah. Bert Bolton (24:08)you Will Hanke (24:09)yeah, I can imagine so. Bert Bolton (24:11)not worth cleaning. You know, it’s the results and what’s going to happen and all, it’s just not worth it. Will Hanke (24:17)yeah, all the effort required just to get it done. Bert Bolton (24:19)Yeah, versus the real rewards in the some of the nicer high-end products. I mean, they’re easier to clean in a lot of ways, which they’re easy to clean and they’re better money. And some of the basic drapery valances, you know, they clean up really well and you get a happy customer. They’re not hard work and you get a really good paycheck. Will Hanke (24:39)Nice. ⁓ So speaking of paychecks, you share just some generic numbers on, let’s say, a residential job? Bert Bolton (24:51)It’s not unusual like when we’re talking about blind and drapery cleaning, rule of thumb, and this is just rule of thumb because across different markets the prices vary, usually 10 to 20 % of retail value would be an average number for cleaning. So if something’s $2,000, then getting $200 to $400 to clean it wouldn’t be unheard of in some markets even higher. Will Hanke (25:20)Okay. Bert Bolton (25:21)And then if you’re doing some blinds, you know, it’s a commodity. other words, a mini blind for a school might be $25, $30 a blind or a shade in a hospital might be $30 to $50 a shade to clean. And it’s just volume. You crank out so many per hour, but in drapery, stage drapes and other things, I mean, it could be very lucrative. Will Hanke (25:45)Yeah, yeah, interesting. If you set it up right, I could see some benefits. I just called a pest control company and I think it was 250 bucks for them to come out to the house the first time. But as soon as I set that appointment, they said, by the way, we can come out, you know, four times a year for, I don’t know, 99 bucks a visit or something like that, right? So before I know it, I’m signed up for $600 a year, you know, and they’re just gonna show up, do the thing and take off. Bert Bolton (26:07)huh. Mm-hmm. Will Hanke (26:14)having that recurring revenue for them, I mean, it was fantastic for them, right? Bert Bolton (26:18)Yeah, yeah, yeah, but that’s you bring up a good point there. These retailers that understand cleaning or use cleaning as a sales leader, they include the first cleaning. If you clean within the first two years or three years, the first cleaning is free. And then, you know, they’ll keep, you know, let’s get a maintenance program. We’ll come back every three years or every two years to clean. ⁓ And the idea being obviously, they’re in the home and they’re gonna make cross sales of other things. For us, you inspect the blind, the older blinds, I mean, you’ve gotta say, hey, this is too risky to clean or it’s gonna fall apart, you’re gonna need a new one. And so you’re in the house with a relationship to sell them the new one. Will Hanke (27:03)Yeah, yeah, so that’s interesting. The people that are that you’re hiring, if it’s not you as the business owner, you have somebody going out to do the cleaning. I’m assuming they need a little bit of sales training slash knowledge as well. Bert Bolton (27:18)Well, they need to be familiar with the different types of products and obviously which ones would be, you know, dangerous to clean because they might fall apart or the fabric obviously has got too much damage from age or UV or whatever. And so, you know, they need to recognize that, but they don’t, you know, if they’re working in conjunction with your sales team or somebody, then obviously they’re just handing it off for saying, you know, this person is the one to talk to. Will Hanke (27:50)Yeah, yeah, at least refer the lead over. So is there a window treatment that you really like is your favorite to clean or a certain type? Bert Bolton (28:02)I like seeing results. It’s just nice to see results and some of the blinds like the silhouettes, some of the sheer shades are really nice because you can see such a transformation. People don’t realize over the years how much dirt they do pick up because they’re on window air filters, but when you get them clean, then they’re just like, wow, you know. Will Hanke (28:14)yeah. Yeah, yeah, and they probably feel good because that’s an investment that they didn’t have to rebuy, right? Bert Bolton (28:30)Oh yeah, yeah, and you always show them the dirt, you know, take a picture, show them if you’re cleaning in the house, it’s easy because you’ve got that bucket with dirty dry cleaning or dirty wet cleaning solution. Will Hanke (28:43)Yep, yep, makes sense. So speaking of cleaning gadgets, what’s one cleaning tool or gadget that you swear by no matter how ridiculous it looks? Bert Bolton (28:52)Cut off a Hunter Douglas mini blind wand, a hollow wand, and then you jam in a cut off toothbrush. So you’ve got a toothbrush on the end of a long clear wand and then you can reach in and get the little fuzzy bugs or lint or things out of silhouettes or honeycomb shades or whatever. It gives you little tool to do a bunch of different tasks with. Will Hanke (29:20)I love that, yeah. It just a toothbrush head and a mini blind wand that’s a great one. That’s great. Well, cool. Thank you so much for sharing information about the, especially about the Blind Cleaners Network. I really enjoyed that. Can you tell me where people can go to learn more about this? Bert Bolton (29:21)but it’s just a toothbrush head on a mini blind wand. They just go to our website blindcleaners.biz We have a website with a few general articles for the public. And then obviously we’re still, it’s a fairly new website, so we’re still adding information, but we have schedules of training and other things. They just contact us directly. Will Hanke (29:57)good. Okay, yeah, they can go to the website if they have more questions, contact you to learn more about that. So we’ll put all that in the show notes so that you can access that later. ⁓ Any last thoughts for the professionals that are trying to grow in this industry? Bert Bolton (30:18)The big thing I think some of them miss is that if they’re part of a professional network, part of it is raising the professionalism as being part of a group adds credibility. You know, they’re recognized and the Hunter Douglas and Springs and the others say, hey, you know, these people have got more credibility because they’ve had a training or have the knowledge that we understand. And the other thing is it helps them if they’re going to some of these other referral sources to be able to say, I’m part of this professional network. It sets them at a higher standard, just like any certification or specialization. Will Hanke (30:54)Yeah. Makes sense, yeah. Well, again, Bert, thank you so much. It’s been an incredible conversation. If you have been thinking about adding cleaning as part of the services or you’re already in the industry, I hope that you were able to learn maybe a thing or two. ⁓ If you’ve even got one idea or useful strategy out of the conversation, do us a favor and send this to a friend in the trade. I would appreciate it. ⁓ Bert , thank you so much for being on today. I really do appreciate your time. Yeah, no problem. If you want to hear more episodes like this, don’t forget to follow and subscribe, share it with a colleague and check out the rest of our marketing panes episodes and we’ll catch you on the next one. Bert Bolton (31:28)thank you, Will. All right, thank you.

Guest Profile: Randy and Andy Randy Meppelink runs a 4th-generation family business based in Michigan that doesn’t just sell machines, they also teach fabrication. Whether it’s building roller shades from scratch, improving your current workflow, or launching new products like outdoor shades, Randy and his team help window treatment pros go from retailer to full-on fabricator. He brings a rare perspective: real-life experience in fabrication and hands-on product knowledge. His facility doubles as a working fabrication space where businesses can test machines, learn the ropes, and get hands-on experience. Andrew Meyer is the Vice President of Sales & Marketing at Indiana Coated Fabrics, a U.S. manufacturer of high-performance textiles. With over 20 years in sales, marketing, and brand development, he now focuses on serving the window shading industry through ICF’s U.S.-made blackout and light-filtering fabrics. Known for pairing market insight with a hands-on approach, Andrew helps fabricators, distributors, and designers navigate supply chain challenges and design trends. Outside work, he’s a devoted husband, father of three, and active community volunteer. Other Notes/Links: Window Products: Visit Website Indiana Coated fabrics: Visit Website Sun Shading Expo: https://sunshadingexpo.com/ pssst…. want to be a guest on the show? Listen to other episodes Video https://youtu.be/pt4lc2Hsh2M Click here to display Transcript TRANSCRIPT Will Hanke (00:00) All right, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Marketing Panes the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers or business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. I’m your host, Will Hanke and today we’re joined by two industry leaders helping dealers cross over into the world of in-house fabrication. So first is Randy Meppelink. Randy runs a fourth generation family business based in Michigan that doesn’t just sell machines, they also teach fabrication, whether it’s building roller shades from scratch, improving your current workflow or launching new products like outdoor shades. Randy and his team help window treatment pros go from retailer to full on fabricator. He brings a rare perspective, real life experience in fabrication and hands-on product knowledge. His facility doubles as a working fabrication space where businesses can test machines, learn the ropes, and get hands-on experience. Andrew Meyer, meanwhile, represents Indiana Coated Fabrics, one of the last U.S.-based manufacturers of coated-shade fabrics. While they’re known for blackout materials, ICF goes far beyond that. They work with some of the biggest names in the industry, providing custom converting and finishing services for companies that want to apply ICF’s precision to their own textiles. For 60 years, ICF has supplied everyone from massive commercial brands to independent dealers. Andy’s mission is to help more US fabricators, big and small, access top tier materials and stand out with local made quality. Together, they’re showing us what it really takes to bring fabrication in-house, adapt to industry shifts, and build a more resilient, profitable window treatment business. Guys, thanks for being on today. And I’m a… Yeah, and I’m out of breath now, right? Randy Meppelink (02:03) Yeah. Thanks, Will. We appreciate the invite. You bet. Andrew Meyer (02:03) Thank you. Yes. Randy Meppelink (02:08) Hahaha! Andrew Meyer (02:08) That was quite the intro. ⁓ Will Hanke (02:12) Yeah, so, so let’s jump in. Randy and Andy, could you each introduce yourselves briefly and tell us a little bit about things that maybe we don’t know yet? Randy Meppelink (02:23) Well, thank you very much. And like you said, I am fourth generation. My family immigrated from the Netherlands. they went from Holland to Holland. So real original, right? We went from Holland, the country, to Holland, Michigan, the city. So place they felt comfortable. But a lot of people may not know a couple of things. I’ve been in the industry really a long time since I was a child, you know, picking up or helping my grandfather. You know, we were fabricating drapery rods and, you know, shades way back in the 70s and stuff. but fast forward a little bit. One of the things that some people know and maybe a lot of don’t know, but there was a mini blind that was sold by a company called Leveler. for years, and they had a paint system on there that was a dust guard paint that repelled dust. And I was the inventor behind that. And so that was ⁓ one of mine. so that’s something that you asked of people may not know about me. That’s one. It’s not really out there. You’d have to do the research to find it. yeah, that’s what it And I’ve been involved in a lot of product development with companies that are, whether it’s Will Hanke (03:19) nice. Have a cool. Randy Meppelink (03:39) Hunter Douglas, Levolor, Comfortex, used to be Comfortex. Over the years, where I’ve contracted and done individual engineering products for them. So there’s many products that are out in the industry today that I have touched in one way or another in that product design. So yeah. Will Hanke (03:58) That’s awesome, awesome. Very cool, how about you Andy? Andrew Meyer (04:01) ⁓ Yes, so my name is Andrew Meyer here with ICF. While Randy and I do share the same barber as well as facial barber, I didn’t realize we’re both sporting the go-to today. I’ve been with ICF for about five years now. Tim Foster, whom a lot of the industry folk know, brought me into kind of… ⁓ kind of reinvigorate how our approach was and how we’re going to market with what we do. A lot of people in the industry know ICF and we’ve been kind of doing this blackout material for a long time. However, we do a lot of other things. Outside of shading, we do an art and entertainment ⁓ materials. We do converting work for various shade fabrics as well as other industry materials. ⁓ And we work in the industrial sector as well in making fabrics that get used in various applications. know, everything from tarmacs at the airport to your fabric HVAC materials. So lots of different things that we touch. The bulk of what we do is in the shading world. So which is why we’ve got great relationships with people like Randy and many others out there. And as you kind of mentioned in the intro, we work with some of the biggest names in the shading industry, all the way down to the small mom and pops. And that’s what’s a lot of fun, is to be able to kind of work with both ends of the spectrum in what we do in providing fabrics to the industry. Will Hanke (05:27) that. love that. Randy, you mentioned that your company is four generations strong. What does it what does keeping it in the family, you know, kind of mean and for how you serve the industry today? Randy Meppelink (05:39) So family dynamics are extremely unique when you’re dealing with four generations in the business. Me being the third, but the fourth generation now working in the company and managing. One of the things that we did, and we ran out of kids, my wife and I, we created different divisions within the company so that they work together, but they don’t really cross over. Andrew Meyer (05:58) You Randy Meppelink (06:06) And that way it helps with the family dynamics piece of that because they’re directly responsible for their own division, whether it’s on the machinery side or whether it’s fabrication side or whether it’s supply, the different things like that involve. So that’s one of the important pieces with a family business, I think, is to have some separation for each of the members. Will Hanke (06:27) For sure. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. My daughter works with me and she’s, it’s tough to keep the two things separated sometimes between dad and boss. ⁓ But so I know about the family dynamics a little bit at least. So ⁓ Andy, you mentioned that your business is, or that the business is 60 years, been around for quite a while now. Randy Meppelink (06:41) Yes. Will Hanke (06:52) How has it evolved over the decades? Andrew Meyer (06:55) Yeah, so ICF actually started by Bill Haldowing. He worked at a very large, just not gonna name him, very large company that did some window shading, but they also did movie screen projection screen fabrication. they had started to slow down the shading side of their business, so he actually started ICF to kind of fill that void. And… ICF started as our name says in long format, Indiana Coated Fabrics, we coated fabrics and we made various coated textiles to service, like I said, shading industry and then morphed into projection screen industry. And then somewhere in the 90s, early to mid 90s is when we actually got our first laminator. And that opened up a whole new world of shading, shading material opportunity. So we went from just coating fabrics to then going into being able to provide a blackout material that was laminated and not go the coding route. Now, fast forward even further, we actually do various textiles that use both of those practices. So we’ve got materials that are both laminated and coated to provide different textures, different approaches to the shading industry, as well as the projection screen industry, and as well as some of the other other ⁓ sectors that we service. So we started with this one idea and we’ve kind of really morphed based on the needs as well as our capabilities. And so now we run ⁓ two laminators. We run a narrow width and a wide format width. And then we also have our coating oven, which has different ways in which we can apply coatings to fabrics. Will Hanke (08:32) Yeah. Very interesting. One thing that we’ve seen a lot lately, obviously, is motorization and exterior products really are kind of trending. How do your businesses support dealers and fabricators that are looking to expand into these areas? Let’s start with Andy. Andrew Meyer (08:51) So yeah, we’ve been approached, obviously internally as well as some of our customers of asking, can we provide some exterior materials? like you’ve mentioned, we’ve seen significant growth. Last year ago, February, when we were at Stuttgart, it seemed like exterior was all the rave at the show out there. So we knew that’s something we need to start focusing on. And so we’ve been… looking at bringing in some material, applying some waterproofing components to it to make it ⁓ worthy of outdoor shading or awning. So we’re exploring those. We’ve got a lot of R & D underway. So we don’t weave anything in-house, so we look for different opportunities to be able to convert fabrics to make it worthy of ⁓ outdoor, whatever the application might be. But yeah, exterior is a big focus right now for us. Will Hanke (09:43) Yeah, yeah, how about you, Randy? Randy Meppelink (09:45) I agree. It’s one of the fastest growing categories right now that we see. fabrication of exterior shades can be unique because you do need some special pieces of equipment. But us being also a fabricator and selling fabricated outdoor zip screens and channel guides, wire guide shades, we can kind of walk that dealer through to the right system that they need. On the motorization side, you know you mentioned motors. motors are absolutely, they’re really, and you need a good brand behind it. There’s a lot of motors that are out there that can be used that are not maybe the best ones right now. so we try to help that dealer understand what are the good brands of motors? Where should we be focused on for that? But I don’t see any slowdown in the outdoor market. ⁓ Will Hanke (10:32) You Randy Meppelink (10:32) It was interesting, our third person that’s going to be in the third company that’s going to be in the booth without jumping ahead was here this past week. And when we get to that part, I’ll introduce him. But anyway, we were talking about how many outdoor shades in the country of Australia are sold. And it’s phenomenal. And Australia, while it’s landmass the size of the United States, the people probably would not even fill California. Will Hanke (11:01) Right. Randy Meppelink (11:01) And yet they outsell the US in outdoor shades. And I said, my first comment to him was, well, that’s because it’s a tropical location. And he’s like, no, it’s not. says, Melbourne down in the South, he said, we’re five hours flight from Antarctica. He said, it’s cold in the wintertime, which is there now. They go north when they want to go to a warm climate. But people see that, and we’re seeing that growth move from Will Hanke (11:25) You Randy Meppelink (11:30) countries like where outdoor living is so big and it’s really gonna and when it takes off and it has but as it grows in the United States as with anything it’s going to boom. Will Hanke (11:42) Yeah, yeah, I don’t see any slowdown in it either. Randy, you mentioned helping people cross over into new products like the outdoor shades. Can you break down a little bit of what that looks like for a company that’s maybe just starting out? Randy Meppelink (11:56) Sure, sure, absolutely. And we tried to, in the beginning, and I guess probably why we enjoy helping others, obviously it’s part of our business model, but we’ve been down that road where we tried the things that if there was only somebody that could have told me way back when we started with it that, don’t do this, don’t sew the zipper on the side because that’s really not. you should weld that on. The thread’s going to give way after years of being exposed to the out, even if you use marine threading, that type of thing. that’s what we do then with that person. When they want to do that crossover, step into a new product line. One, we always invite them to our facility. They can see what it’s like and experience. Look, these are pieces of equipment we recommend, but not everybody has a budget for this. but maybe we can steer you towards this or we can help you get started. Maybe we’ve, you know, we’re very good at finding and moving used equipment throughout the country too, to dealers that, you know, where they have a fixed budget, how much they can spend to get started. That’s kind of what we try to do though, is just try to find those right places and right fits for everybody in that. Will Hanke (13:08) like that. That’s awesome that you have ⁓ the access to be able to do that. Andy, what does the domestic manufacturing mean for your customers, especially in today’s market where tariffs are top of mind? Andrew Meyer (13:21) This is like hot topic number one right now. ⁓ man, especially with a continually moving target on what’s going out there in the landscape. It’s actually, you know, we’ve definitely seen an uptick in a lot of smaller fabricators and smaller shops kind of turning to us. And I think, you know, as they’ve gone out to source, Will Hanke (13:23) Right. Andrew Meyer (13:43) fabrics, they’re running into some obstacles. Whether we talk about the tariff, we talk about delays in getting material overseas, there’s definitely been an uptick for us, which is great. And one of the things that we always vocalize is, hey, we are one of the last standing domestic manufacturers of what we do, which is good and bad. It definitely provides opportunities so that we can continue to provide US made goods. Now I will give the disclaimer that you know some of the material raw materials that we have to source there are components that come from various places. We try to source as much domestic raw material as we can. However we’ve got limitations too. So we do have to go overseas for some stuff. But it is a awe inspiring moment when you you’re having a conversation you’re meeting with them you’re on the phone whatever it is and they say well so you guys actually make this stuff in Indiana. So absolutely. So ⁓ It is, it’s a humbling experience to be able to still provide that for people. Will Hanke (14:38) Yeah, I’m having more of those conversations with potential customers for our business as well. That’s something that is definitely top of mind right now. So ⁓ as more dealers start to fabricate in-house, what do you think is really driving that shift? Andrew Meyer (14:49) Absolutely. Randy Meppelink (14:58) I, yeah, well, I mean, what’s driving it is control, right? I mean, now you’re able to control, when you can start building it yourself and allying yourself with the correct suppliers to get what you need, you get to control the narrative of what you’re supplying. And, you know, people say, sometimes I hear it’s like, we’re not near big enough, you know, we’re not large. No, yes, you are, okay? If you build, Andrew Meyer (14:59) I’ll Randy answer that. Randy Meppelink (15:22) If you were gonna do 25 shades a week, okay, on a very small scale, there are ways to jump into fabrication that you can do that and you can, and margin and profit is not a bad word, right? And it’s all what people want, you wanna put that onto your products. so if you can build it, you can definitely be successful. Will Hanke (15:46) Yeah. Randy, as you work with those types of businesses, are there any patterns that you see in the people that have success implementing that? Randy Meppelink (15:57) Yeah, know, some of the biggest ones are, and shade people or window covering people in general, if they’ve been in business for a while, they’re very ingenuitive, intuitive, they’re very, you know, I never, I should let me back up. I am always amazed and I’m always learning from other people and unique. procedures. Just the other day I was working with an audio visual company and they told me a way that they were installing a shade system behind columns in an office building and they were mounting it on a board first and then putting the board up behind and then mounting the board. It’s like I never heard of that idea before. It’s that’s fascinating. It’s great. It makes complete sense. You’re not trying to tuck yourself in behind and mount a bracket. So window covering people, by far in the majority, are set up to do that. Because they do have to figure out unique things in a lot of unique situations. Will Hanke (16:57) Yeah, yeah, so two part question. How hard is it to get started on the fabricating of shades? And then what are some common misconceptions or fears people might have about going down that Randy Meppelink (17:12) So the hardness to get started is what pieces of equipment do I need to make the shades? If I’m going to do roller shades or outdoor shades, do I need from a saw to a welder to inspection hoist to a cutting table? Those four pieces of equipment are your most important pieces of equipment. And then we would look at with a fabricator that’s looking at doing it or even one that’s starting it on a small scale. What type of space requirements do you have in your building? Make sure they understand that if they’re going to go into building outdoor shades, those extrusions come 19 to 20 foot long. So you may not be able to stand those up in your building. Now they’re going to be, how do you store them? And that being said, also understanding what freight costs can be. So if you’re ordering extrusion and it’s 19 foot long links, you’re at the high end of what your trucking companies are going to charge because there’s a thing that they call extreme length charge. And that’s going to be a big fee. And if they’re residentially, let’s say they’re a fabricator that’s working out of their shop or barn or garage or whatever, because we run into that, that’s also a piece that’s going to be, OK, now you’ve got that fee on top of it. So those are just some of the things that we try to. point out to them as they’re going along and they want to step into that fabrication world. Andy can pass the ball to Andy here. I like this on the screen. can move it over. But freight costs probably are one that you see a lot too as well. Andrew Meyer (18:43) Absolutely, it’s, you know, especially with kind of what you just mentioned about how the companies is the longer you go, the worse it gets. I mean, we do a lot of wide format material. So when we’re sending out 10 foot long rolls, it’s, know, these guys will run it through a quoting process. And it’s kind of like, okay, you you want five skids of this stuff. you’re up against ⁓ some logistic stuff as well. So definitely those things that you kind of as a fabricator, you got to keep that in mind how to build that in. Will Hanke (19:06) You Yeah, yeah, definitely an important piece of it. since we’re on this kind of thread a little bit, what is your guys take on how fabrication affects margin lead time and just overall business control? Randy Meppelink (19:32) So one of the things, and I’ll talk from a fabricator to a supplier a little bit here, So understanding what lead times can be and fabrics, everything that you want to order, we all want to order as a fabricator on a just in time, right? We all want to bring it. We want to order when we need it. And we’re assuming that our supplier stocks it. maybe, but they’re If you walk a mile in their shoes, they can’t stock everything either. So it’s a fine line of material availability. And that’s the first thing. Am I right, Andy, on that? I mean, that’s it. Andrew Meyer (20:11) Yeah, I believe we got an order from a company called Window Products the other day asking, I’m going to send somebody down to pick up a couple of rolls. I said, hold on, let me make sure I got these. Randy Meppelink (20:22) And it was even after close, will you set the rules outside the building? We’ll pick it up at 2 a.m. in the morning or whatever. Andrew Meyer (20:24) It was! No, there’s a lot of truth in that and I think a lot of it starts with managing expectations. Whether it’s all the way down at the end, end fabricator going straight to the consumer or all the way coming up through us and providing the material to the industry. As long as we set those expectations, everybody should be set up for success. So Randy just mentioned, a lot of the times we do our production, should say that, we do a significant amount of production as made to order. However, while we’re doing that, we’re trying to anticipate what the market is going to do based on forecasting from some of our larger customers. So we’ll go ahead and try to run stock on three, four, or five different colors in a certain category of material. It doesn’t always work out perfectly that way, or there are situations where large orders come in and completely evaporates your your inventory. we tell customers, hey, we’re about a three week turn on narrow width materials. We’re up to four weeks on wide width materials. And that’s just how our production scheduling runs. But we try to beat those expectations 99 % of the Will Hanke (21:39) Sure. Yeah. Under promise, over deliver, right? So I’d like to, yeah, I’d like to kind of dive into the whole, like the importance of quality materials, domestic sourcing, that kind of stuff. Andy, ICF is more than just a fabric supplier. Can you walk us through what else you guys actually do for your partners? Randy Meppelink (21:43) Exactly. Andrew Meyer (21:45) set it up back, let somebody pick it up. Absolutely, absolutely. So as I mentioned in the beginning, we are known for our four ply vinyl blackout lamination. That’s what we do. We make four ply vinyl blackout day in and day out. We do a lot of other things. We do an artist material for the art and entertainment industry. So if you picture people doing murals in kind of high end office settings or even high end homes. ⁓ We have a lot of artists that will paint these murals in studio and then reapply it in the final installation. And it’s a 100 % cotton weave that we do some acrylic coating to it to prime it and basically make it ready for the artist to do their work. That is actually one of my favorite things to work on because it is such a niche product, but yet it has such a wonderful traction and who we deal with. So one of the things I’ve been working a lot is how to grow that side of our business just because we actually work straight with the end artists. We don’t go through any dealers or any wholesalers or anything. So that’s kind of a fun thing we do. ⁓ Projection screen, which I mentioned, we do a lot of projection screen that gets used in kind of educational format, office settings, things like that. But we do a lot of converting work. And that’s been a huge growth sector for us. So we’ve got some pretty sizable ⁓ customers out there in the market that will send us material, whether they want to take a material that had some opacities to it and they want to make it a blackout. So we’ll go ahead and finish it with lamination to convert it into a blackout format. We might take a material and apply an FR package to it. apply, like I mentioned earlier, apply a waterproofing package to it. Still, it’s a finished product, but they want to offer it in a couple different ways. I will say from us being domestic and doing what we do, we have been on a mission to, we got rid of the bad anemone a handful of years ago. We’re now about 96, 7 % of the way there to get rid of anemone in its entirety. So for all of the fabric people out there, the anemone, there was a good anemone and a bad anemone. And like I said, we got rid of the bad one many years ago and now we’re getting rid of the good one so we can be completely free of the anemone additive to make ⁓ an FR package. So we’re really excited about that. And I think being domestic, we kind of have that… that ability or that foresight to know Massachusetts, California, these states that are being very proactive and trying to get rid of that stuff, we’ve got our ear to the ground so we can be able to kind of try to be ahead of the game. And so when those things do happen and when those changes happen, we’re ready to go, we’re ready to pivot, or we already have. So yeah, we dabble a little bit in, ⁓ like I mentioned earlier, the industrial market. And in that sense, we’re taking material and we’re putting a neoprene finishing to it. We’re making it a conductive material so that we’ve got a customer that uses this material and there’s a lot of static electricity in the application that they use. And we need to make sure that a current can pass through the fabric and so that there’s no charge being built up. So… We get to do a lot of fun stuff. It’s just not stuff that the end user is typically aware of, because we’re so early on in the process, but a lot of different things that we do. Will Hanke (25:31) very cool Will Hanke (25:31) So Andy, let’s talk about US-based sourcing. It’s a hot topic right now. How are you seeing the industry shift and what’s kind of driving that demand? Andrew Meyer (25:41) Absolutely. Us as a supplier here domestically, we’ve definitely seen an uptick. And we’ve even seen it where we’ve got customers asking us, where do your raw materials come from? And we exhaust every measure possible to provide domestic raw material sources. And as I mentioned earlier, we still have to get some things from overseas. It’s just the way the industry is. but it’s definitely something that is actively being sought after. And it’s something that is part of an active conversation when you’re introducing yourself as a textile manufacturer, people are digging to find out where does this stuff come from? So it is very much a hot topic. Will Hanke (26:22) Yeah, Randy, anything to add to that? Randy Meppelink (26:25) ⁓ it’s I agree with everything Andy is saying for sure. And, you know, we’re even adding on the machinery side of things. We’re building one particular cutting machine model now in the United States. We are soon working on some other projects as well. We’re manufacturing it here only because of the uncertainty of we don’t know where with the whole global thing of where it’s going and not to be political. We don’t know where you know we don’t know where tariffs are going to go. But you know I will say it seems like they’re here to stay for a while. So as good as any good businessman would do or woman you’re going to reinvent yourself in today’s economy and you’re going to say OK if it’s going to be US sourcing that’s what we’re going to work on. And that’s and we’re we’re definitely making a push on that whether it’s with working with Indiana Coated Fabrics on a couple of fabrics that they can do that and whether that or with other fabric suppliers that are manufacturing the fabric here in the United States, you know, we definitely want to be sourcing locally when possible now for sure. Will Hanke (27:33) Yes. So, let’s let’s jump in on the tariff thing just a little bit ⁓ without going too deep into the politics side of it. How are they impacting dealers and how does working with a domestic supplier help them? Andrew Meyer (27:37) boy. Ha ha ha. Randy Meppelink (27:40) Yeah. So the dealers are seeing pass-through tariffs. We’re passing through tariffs as we get tariffs added to ours, whether it’s on tariffs with our component suppliers, machinery, all of it. mean, there’s basically anything that’s coming into the United States now has a tariff on it of at least 10%. Now, that 10 % is not 10 % to the dealer. So what we do is we need to We need to figure out that number as it trickles down because what we saw, and there are suppliers out there that are charging 10 % tariff. And when you question them, like, well, that’s what the tariff is. But they’re buying it here and selling it here. They’re using it as a profit generator. And in my opinion, and Andy and I have had long talk, we kind of both agree. Andrew Meyer (28:33) Mm-hmm. Randy Meppelink (28:42) I don’t want to do it as a profit generator, but it’s not something we as manufacturers can absorb either. But we need to find that right number to pass along. I think that’s key as how you do that. A 10 % tariff trickles down to a 4 to 6 % tariff somewhere down that line. And not every product that’s even products that we source in the US use componentry or parts of that product that they have to get from overseas. So even a US-sourced manufactured product can still have a tariff applied to it of a small percentage. Andrew Meyer (29:17) Yes. Will Hanke (29:23) Yeah, but it’s not 10 % because it’s either not fully from overseas parts or they’re doing 10 % off of the final price instead of their actual costs. Randy Meppelink (29:34) Yep, exactly. Andrew Meyer (29:34) Exactly, ⁓ We, much like Randy, we are in a similar boat. We’ve implemented a surcharge on our invoicing. We went out to every single, not every single, almost every single customer, whether we sat down with them, got on the phone, got on Teams calls, and basically talked through it and said, hey, we have been forced. Here’s where we’re going. You know, we talk about our Will Hanke (29:36) Yeah. Andrew Meyer (29:58) our raw material supply chain. We talk about how our fiberglass weave, while that’s a domestic weaver, they’re getting the yarn from India or wherever it might be. So it trickles down as Randy said. The gratifying part is after I have these conversations with all these customers of, we do have to start implementing a surcharge for the tariff, we come out to about 3.5 % is what we’ve had to put down. What I’m hearing is some of these companies like Randy had mentioned are absolutely gouging customers on just dropping this full tariff amount. it doesn’t make sense, and you’re not doing anybody justice by doing it this way. I guess maybe in the long run it’ll help us, and people will steer away from trying to source those materials from people that are just not playing a good game. But it’s almost in everything that we’re doing and we have to do it. It’s the only way to continue to go forward. But I can say with confidence that we have kept it as absolutely low as possible. And we’re gonna be reflective of what happens with the US administration. As Randy said, yeah, it’s probably gonna be here for a while. If it changes, if it goes down, we’ll make it go down. We don’t want this thing on there any more than the customer wants it. will be reactive as the government reacts. Will Hanke (31:23) I think there’s something smart about being transparent with it. Like you said, just opening a conversation. I think that’s pretty smart. for the ones that are just blanket adding a percentage, when we see an economy kind of go down a lot, a lot of those companies start to feel the pressure and it shakes them out. And the cream rises to the top, I guess you could say. As my mom would say, they’ll get their comeuppance, right? Andrew Meyer (31:50) hahahaha Will Hanke (31:53) So Andy, going to toss you a little bit of a softball here. For businesses that want more control over product quality, turnaround time, what are the advantages of partnering with a US-based fabricator like ICF? Andrew Meyer (32:08) Absolutely. I will say first and foremost, turnaround time. Even though we’re gonna give you the expectation of roughly a three week turn, it’s gonna be typically a lot quicker than that. You’re not sitting here waiting on a ship to come overseas. You don’t have to buy an entire container. We will sell you two rolls if that’s all that you need. Would I like to sell you a container? Absolutely. But we have the flexibility of doing a a single roll all the way up to 20 skids. So whatever the application might be. And we have a lot of flexibility because we have so many different coloring options, we have so many different finishing options. All of this being right here in the Midwest, we can do it fast and we do it with the utmost quality and we source as much of a quality component as possible. Will Hanke (32:59) That’s awesome. Thank you for that. So both of you, as you mentioned earlier, Randy, you guys are going to be at the Sun Shading Expo in November. ⁓ What can people that attend that show expect to see there? Randy Meppelink (33:08) We are. Well, we, so we’re gonna wet the whistle on our booth, we’re not gonna, we’re just gonna say is we’re gonna have an experienced booth, okay? And we invite you to come by our booth and have, we’re gonna have a really good time, okay? And while having a good time, we’re really gonna be able to talk to you about what our theme is, taking it from fabric to finish, okay? And that’s kind of why, you know, we have Indiana Coated Window Products, Global Machine Innovation with us and UltraCut, okay, where we’re the, together with those companies and we invite you to see why we’ve partnered with them. And, Will, one of the things, and I think I said this before, but, you know, we speak fabricator. So when we talk machines at the show, OK? We’re walking the walk, right? I mean, we’re talking to machine. We’re not just a machine company that sells a particular line of machine. And it’s a cure-all for everything. And it does everything. We sell the machines we use every day. And that’s why when someone comes up here to see us, it’s really unique. anyway, back to the show. We got it. We’re in Indianapolis, and that’s the race capital of the world. And that’s going to be my intro as to a little bit about what to come to expect to see ⁓ at our ⁓ booth. Will Hanke (34:41) Alright, fair enough, fair enough. So they can come for the experience, but they can also bring questions, like real world questions that you guys will actually be able to answer. Andrew Meyer (34:42) Definitely. Absolutely, we are going to be there showcasing everything from fabric as if you just needed to get fabric and how that then translates into the process of fabricating a shade. So stepping you through from the beginning all the way to a finished product. And that way we can field questions. Hey, I’ve got technical questions on the material. I’ve got technical questions on the end use of the fabricated shade or anything in between. So we’re really excited to be able to kind of create this kind of three dimensional approach utilizing ultra cut window products in ourselves in a booth setting. So I will say you better race to get to our booth. What? Will Hanke (35:33) I like that. I have a booth as well. hope mine is facing towards yours so I can see some of the fun, right? Should be good. So what role does collaboration between companies like yours play in helping dealers succeed? Randy? Randy Meppelink (35:50) So really, where that comes in is when we start with a fabricator, we start talking to them about a cutting table and then fabric. We have that conversation typically then about, well, where do I get fabrics from? What’s my best sources? And that’s where our partnerships like with Ediana Coated is. We want to tell the story to that fabricator. We want to say, we’re going to put you in touch with Andy. You need to talk to him. And they’re going to take care of your needs in this particular line of fabric. And if you need this style of fabric, we’re going to guide you in those directions. And motorization, same thing. Some of the products we sell, we’re not taking any back end or commission or anything. We’re just wanting, we want them to be successful. Because. to borrow a term from a friend of mine who’s retired out of the industry, but John Fitzgerald, and I got to call his name out, he was the vice president of Comfort Tax, him and Tom Marczak, but he coined the term a long time ago, your success is our success. And when he said that, I’ve always remembered that. That was 25 years ago when he said that at a meeting. that really is, their success, a fabricator’s success is my success, it’s Andy’s success. And that’s how we. That’s how we grow together. Will Hanke (37:08) Yeah, yeah, there’s something really good about as a business owner or representative of being a coach for somebody. So they come into your booth, we need fabric. go talk to that guy. You know, you’re the resource, but you’ve also kind of brought them all together in one spot. That’s fantastic. Andrew Meyer (37:08) Absolutely. Absolutely. Will Hanke (37:28) Yeah, really cool. What are you guys most excited to showcase at the expo? And you’ve kind of already hinted to some sort of surprise, but I’m curious what you guys are excited to showcase. Andrew Meyer (37:40) I think it’ll be fun that we’re gonna be able to demonstrate the fabricating of a shade. We’re gonna be able to demonstrate kind of all that is involved with that. But obviously there’s gonna be some fun stuff for them to do when they step into the booth. But yeah, being able to showcase this 360 degree approach, whether it’s a wholesaler, whether it’s an end fabricator, we can touch all these different points of the market with one stop. Randy Meppelink (38:06) We’re going to have a new cutting table, brand new design. This cutting table is designed for the entry level person that wants to get into shade fabrication, whether indoors or outdoors. And we’re super excited about that. We’ll have a mini model of it for display and operation. then we have on the outdoor side with Ultra-Cut, we’ll have some of our new products our new welding equipment with that as well. we’ve got some brand new stuff coming to the market that we’re excited to share. Will Hanke (38:36) And as you mentioned, the ⁓ Sun Shading Expo is in November. This is 2025 that you’re listening to it right now. Excited to do that. Obviously it’s in Indiana. As a midwesterner, that’s fantastic for me. I can drive to it. That doesn’t happen very often, but I guess you guys probably can too, right? Randy Meppelink (38:53) Correct? Will Hanke (38:55) That’s awesome. So a couple quick bonus questions for somebody who’s listening and considering the in-house fabrication. What’s the first step they should realistically take? Randy Meppelink (39:08) Wanting to if, OK, the first step is preparing your budget. How much do you want to spend to get in? OK, now, that being said, nobody wants to spend more than they have to. ⁓ but realistically, come up with a realistic number of what is where you’re at. And you might be shocked at what it takes to get into making shades. Will Hanke (39:21) You Randy Meppelink (39:35) It may not be as high as what you think it is. A lot of people from the machine side of things here, and they see all the fancy XYZ type CNC cutting machines, they can be very expensive. They can be very, ⁓ what’s the word I’m trying to think of, awe-inspiring. It’s like, wow, do I really need all that? we did a test here. ⁓ on Thursday, we had an XY table and we had an operator working on a Y-axis only table. And we timed it in a good shade cutter, outcut the XY, the computer table. And we were all shocked. And because if we were all betting, we would have thought the XY was faster. But it wasn’t. And it is in some cases. it’s not. And so really, start out with your budget. Space requirements, how much, you know, come talk, when you talk to me, I’m going to ask you those questions. I’m going to say, how big a space do you have? Okay. We can do a layout for you. You know, Mitch in our office will actually do a factory layout on a CAD system as to how your factory should look like. You know, what, that needs to see. And, and then how much space do you have to store fabric? You know, we want you to store a lot of Indiana coated fabrics. So it’s ready and available to make shades. Will Hanke (40:51) Okay. That’s good. Thank you for kind of laying that out. Big picture. What trend do you guys will shake up the window covering world in the next three to five years? Andrew Meyer (41:10) I think the exterior side of that business is gonna continue to just be explosive, something we’re gonna be paying a lot attention to. And I think a lot of the work that we’ve been doing lately, we’re seeing a lot of, ⁓ man, how do I say this? We’re seeing a lot of textiles that… didn’t necessarily come to the market as a blackout format are now having that option added. So I think you’re going to see a lot more design centric be. in combination with those types of characteristics. I think you’re also going to see some more dual shade stuff come out too. I mean, I know there’s a good portion of it, but ⁓ we’re seeing a lot more requests of, we want this fabric of yours to be in conjunction with this other fabric that we’re sourcing for a dual shade purpose. yeah, that’s my crystal ball, but by no means is it crystal clear. Will Hanke (42:04) Yeah. All right. Anything to add, Randy? Randy Meppelink (42:06) I would agree on ⁓ looking in the same crystal ball on outdoor shades and dual shades. Those are the two fastest growing categories we see. And for a fabricator, since we’re talking to fabricators in this podcast, a dual shade is two shades on one window. That’s twice as much product that you can make. those are opportunities, not negatives. Those are opportunities for growth. Will Hanke (42:35) good, very good. If my wife knew that there was such a thing, I’m sure she would order it, right? Not necessarily because she needs it, just because she wants it, right? So thank you guys for being on today. ⁓ If somebody wants to learn a little bit more and connect with you guys, what is the best way for them to do so? We’ll start with Randy. Randy Meppelink (42:56) OK, so emailing our company is probably the best way. We will always talk to you on the phone. Don’t get me wrong. But with the amount of phone calls that come in, it’s very difficult to as much time and effort as you are not effort, but as much time into speaking to everybody. email is the best that we can get started and then kind of gives us some direction. Great way we’ll respond. I’ll get you to the right persons in the company here, whether it’s machinery, fabrication, new products, that type of thing. at that would be randy @ window products inc inc.com so randy@windowproductsinc.com and I’ll direct that email and I respond to everybody so I will definitely respond back. Will Hanke (43:24) Okay, what is that email? Okay, perfect. Awesome, we’ll put that in the show notes as well if anybody wants to, if you’re driving and can’t write that down at the moment, we’ll make sure that you get that. How about you, Andy? Andrew Meyer (43:48) ⁓ Yeah, very similar setup to what Randy mentioned. ⁓ By all means, check out ⁓ www.indianacoatedfabrics.com A good amount of resource on there to kind of illustrate what it is we do and the different sectors that we kind of play in. But also, shoot me an email. ⁓ Phone calls are great, but kind of like Randy said, it’s just constantly… bouncing off the hook here, but Andrew.Meyer M-E-Y-E-R @ indianacoatedfabrics.com. Will Hanke (44:19) Awesome. And again, we’ll put that in the show notes with a link to your website and everything. Thank you guys. Any last thoughts for professionals trying to grow in this industry? Randy Meppelink (44:30) My biggest one, as you’re going to hear this before the trade show, go to the Sun Shading Expo in Indianapolis. Please. It’s a great opportunity. you’re considering fabrication, or if you’re considering even looking for new suppliers, whether it’s fabrics, or components for your motors, or anything in our industry, go to the trade shows. Trade shows are so important. And this one. This sun shading expo is really geared towards rolling products, things that roll up, up and down. That’s the biggest part of our industry right now. And if you’re selling that, you need to be there. Andrew Meyer (45:10) Same sentiment is come check out the show. Indianapolis is an extremely easy city to get to, whether by car or by plane. And obviously being downtown focused, the show itself is going to be so well contained that it’s just very accessible and there’s going to be lots and lots of great stuff there for people to check out. Will Hanke (45:29) Yeah, it’s a great show. I’ve attended the last three or four years in a row now and it seems like it gets bigger every year. It’s fantastic. Yeah. Well, thank you guys again for being on the show today. You shared some fantastic things that ⁓ that really, really can help people that are maybe thinking or maybe they weren’t even thinking of going that route. So they’ll reach out to you, hopefully. Randy Meppelink (45:38) Absolutely, it has been. Will Hanke (45:55) to talk a little bit more about that. But thanks for giving us kind of a behind the scenes look at what’s really possible for dealers to take fabrication into their own hands. Randy Meppelink (46:05) Well, thank you. Thanks for having us. Andrew Meyer (46:06) Yes, yeah, thank you Will Hanke (46:06) Yeah, Andrew Meyer (46:07) for having, yes, thank you so much. It was a lot of fun. Will Hanke (46:07) yeah, appreciate it. Yeah, if this got you thinking about the next step for your business, whether it’s sourcing smarter, fabricating in-house, or simply finding more control in your process, I hope you found something actionable today. As always, if you enjoyed the episode, consider subscribing or sharing it with someone in the industry who might find it helpful. You can find more episodes and resources over at Window Treatment Marketing Pros on YouTube. Spotify, iTunes, and all the usual places. Until our next episode at Marketing Panes thanks for listening. TRANSCRIPT Will Hanke (00:00) All right, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Marketing Panes the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers or business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. I’m your host, Will Hanke and today we’re joined by two industry leaders helping dealers cross over into the world of in-house fabrication. So first is Randy Meppelink. Randy runs a fourth generation family business based in Michigan that doesn’t just sell machines, they also teach fabrication, whether it’s building roller shades from scratch, improving your current workflow or launching new products like outdoor shades. Randy and his team help window treatment pros go from retailer to full on fabricator. He brings a rare perspective, real life experience in fabrication and hands-on product knowledge. His facility doubles as a working fabrication space where businesses can test machines, learn the ropes, and get hands-on experience. Andrew Meyer, meanwhile, represents Indiana Coated Fabrics, one of the last U.S.-based manufacturers of coated-shade fabrics. While they’re known for blackout materials, ICF goes far beyond that. They work with some of the biggest names in the industry, providing custom converting and finishing services for companies that want to apply ICF’s precision to their own textiles. For 60 years, ICF has supplied everyone from massive commercial brands to independent dealers. Andy’s mission is to help more US fabricators, big and small, access top tier materials and stand out with local made quality. Together, they’re showing us what it really takes to bring fabrication in-house, adapt to industry shifts, and build a more resilient, profitable window treatment business. Guys, thanks for being on today. And I’m a… Yeah, and I’m out of breath now, right? Randy Meppelink (02:03) Yeah. Thanks, Will. We appreciate the invite. You bet. Andrew Meyer (02:03) Thank you. Yes. Randy Meppelink (02:08) Hahaha! Andrew Meyer (02:08) That was quite the intro. ⁓ Will Hanke (02:12) Yeah, so, so let’s jump in. Randy and Andy, could you each introduce yourselves briefly and tell us a little bit about things that maybe we don’t know yet? Randy Meppelink (02:23) Well, thank you very much. And like you said, I am fourth generation. My family immigrated from the Netherlands. they went from Holland to Holland. So real original, right? We went from Holland, the country, to Holland, Michigan, the city. So place they felt comfortable. But a lot of people may not know a couple of things. I’ve been in the industry really a long time since I was a child, you know, picking up or helping my grandfather. You know, we were fabricating drapery rods and, you know, shades way back in the 70s and stuff. but fast forward a little bit. One of the things that some people know and maybe a lot of don’t know, but there was a mini blind that was sold by a company called Leveler. for years, and they had a paint system on there that was a dust guard paint that repelled dust. And I was the inventor behind that. And so that was ⁓ one of mine. so that’s something that you asked of people may not know about me. That’s one. It’s not really out there. You’d have to do the research to find it. yeah, that’s what it And I’ve been involved in a lot of product development with companies that are, whether it’s Will Hanke (03:19) nice. Have a cool. Randy Meppelink (03:39) Hunter Douglas, Levolor, Comfortex, used to be Comfortex. Over the years, where I’ve contracted and done individual engineering products for them. So there’s many products that are out in the industry today that I have touched in one way or another in that product design. So yeah. Will Hanke (03:58) That’s awesome, awesome. Very cool, how about you Andy? Andrew Meyer (04:01) ⁓ Yes, so my name is Andrew Meyer here with ICF. While Randy and I do share the same barber as well as facial barber, I didn’t realize we’re both sporting the go-to today. I’ve been with ICF for about five years now. Tim Foster, whom a lot of the industry folk know, brought me into kind of… ⁓ kind of reinvigorate how our approach was and how we’re going to market with what we do. A lot of people in the industry know ICF and we’ve been kind of doing this blackout material for a long time. However, we do a lot of other things. Outside of shading, we do an art and entertainment ⁓ materials. We do converting work for various shade fabrics as well as other industry materials. ⁓ And we work in the industrial sector as well in making fabrics that get used in various applications. know, everything from tarmacs at the airport to your fabric HVAC materials. So lots of different things that we touch. The bulk of what we do is in the shading world. So which is why we’ve got great relationships with people like Randy and many others out there. And as you kind of mentioned in the intro, we work with some of the biggest names in the shading industry, all the way down to the small mom and pops. And that’s what’s a lot of fun, is to be able to kind of work with both ends of the spectrum in what we do in providing fabrics to the industry. Will Hanke (05:27) that. love that. Randy, you mentioned that your company is four generations strong. What does it what does keeping it in the family, you know, kind of mean and for how you serve the industry today? Randy Meppelink (05:39) So family dynamics are extremely unique when you’re dealing with four generations in the business. Me being the third, but the fourth generation now working in the company and managing. One of the things that we did, and we ran out of kids, my wife and I, we created different divisions within the company so that they work together, but they don’t really cross over. Andrew Meyer (05:58) You Randy Meppelink (06:06) And that way it helps with the family dynamics piece of that because they’re directly responsible for their own division, whether it’s on the machinery side or whether it’s fabrication side or whether it’s supply, the different things like that involve. So that’s one of the important pieces with a family business, I think, is to have some separation for each of the members. Will Hanke (06:27) For sure. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. My daughter works with me and she’s, it’s tough to keep the two things separated sometimes between dad and boss. ⁓ But so I know about the family dynamics a little bit at least. So ⁓ Andy, you mentioned that your business is, or that the business is 60 years, been around for quite a while now. Randy Meppelink (06:41) Yes. Will Hanke (06:52) How has it evolved over the decades? Andrew Meyer (06:55) Yeah, so ICF actually started by Bill Haldowing. He worked at a very large, just not gonna name him, very large company that did some window shading, but they also did movie screen projection screen fabrication. they had started to slow down the shading side of their business, so he actually started ICF to kind of fill that void. And… ICF started as our name says in long format, Indiana Coated Fabrics, we coated fabrics and we made various coated textiles to service, like I said, shading industry and then morphed into projection screen industry. And then somewhere in the 90s, early to mid 90s is when we actually got our first laminator. And that opened up a whole new world of shading, shading material opportunity. So we went from just coating fabrics to then going into being able to provide a blackout material that was laminated and not go the coding route. Now, fast forward even further, we actually do various textiles that use both of those practices. So we’ve got materials that are both laminated and coated to provide different textures, different approaches to the shading industry, as well as the projection screen industry, and as well as some of the other other ⁓ sectors that we service. So we started with this one idea and we’ve kind of really morphed based on the needs as well as our capabilities. And so now we run ⁓ two laminators. We run a narrow width and a wide format width. And then we also have our coating oven, which has different ways in which we can apply coatings to fabrics. Will Hanke (08:32) Yeah. Very interesting. One thing that we’ve seen a lot lately, obviously, is motorization and exterior products really are kind of trending. How do your businesses support dealers and fabricators that are looking to expand into these areas? Let’s start with Andy. Andrew Meyer (08:51) So yeah, we’ve been approached, obviously internally as well as some of our customers of asking, can we provide some exterior materials? like you’ve mentioned, we’ve seen significant growth. Last year ago, February, when we were at Stuttgart, it seemed like exterior was all the rave at the show out there. So we knew that’s something we need to start focusing on. And so we’ve been… looking at bringing in some material, applying some waterproofing components to it to make it ⁓ worthy of outdoor shading or awning. So we’re exploring those. We’ve got a lot of R & D underway. So we don’t weave anything in-house, so we look for different opportunities to be able to convert fabrics to make it worthy of ⁓ outdoor, whatever the application might be. But yeah, exterior is a big focus right now for us. Will Hanke (09:43) Yeah, yeah, how about you, Randy? Randy Meppelink (09:45) I agree. It’s one of the fastest growing categories right now that we see. fabrication of exterior shades can be unique because you do need some special pieces of equipment. But us being also a fabricator and selling fabricated outdoor zip screens and channel guides, wire guide shades, we can kind of walk that dealer through to the right system that they need. On the motorization side, you know you mentioned motors. motors are absolutely, they’re really, and you need a good brand behind it. There’s a lot of motors that are out there that can be used that are not maybe the best ones right now. so we try to help that dealer understand what are the good brands of motors? Where should we be focused on for that? But I don’t see any slowdown in the outdoor market. ⁓ Will Hanke (10:32) You Randy Meppelink (10:32) It was interesting, our third person that’s going to be in the third company that’s going to be in the booth without jumping ahead was here this past week. And when we get to that part, I’ll introduce him. But anyway, we were talking about how many outdoor shades in the country of Australia are sold. And it’s phenomenal. And Australia, while it’s landmass the size of the United States, the people probably would not even fill California. Will Hanke (11:01) Right. Randy Meppelink (11:01) And yet they outsell the US in outdoor shades. And I said, my first comment to him was, well, that’s because it’s a tropical location. And he’s like, no, it’s not. says, Melbourne down in the South, he said, we’re five hours flight from Antarctica. He said, it’s cold in the wintertime, which is there now. They go north when they want to go to a warm climate. But people see that, and we’re seeing that growth move from Will Hanke (11:25) You Randy Meppelink (11:30) countries like where outdoor living is so big and it’s really gonna and when it takes off and it has but as it grows in the United States as with anything it’s going to boom. Will Hanke (11:42) Yeah, yeah, I don’t see any slowdown in it either. Randy, you mentioned helping people cross over into new products like the outdoor shades. Can you break down a little bit of what that looks like for a company that’s maybe just starting out? Randy Meppelink (11:56) Sure, sure, absolutely. And we tried to, in the beginning, and I guess probably why we enjoy helping others, obviously it’s part of our business model, but we’ve been down that road where we tried the things that if there was only somebody that could have told me way back when we started with it that, don’t do this, don’t sew the zipper on the side because that’s really not. you should weld that on. The thread’s going to give way after years of being exposed to the out, even if you use marine threading, that type of thing. that’s what we do then with that person. When they want to do that crossover, step into a new product line. One, we always invite them to our facility. They can see what it’s like and experience. Look, these are pieces of equipment we recommend, but not everybody has a budget for this. but maybe we can steer you towards this or we can help you get started. Maybe we’ve, you know, we’re very good at finding and moving used equipment throughout the country too, to dealers that, you know, where they have a fixed budget, how much they can spend to get started. That’s kind of what we try to do though, is just try to find those right places and right fits for everybody in that. Will Hanke (13:08) like that. That’s awesome that you have ⁓ the access to be able to do that. Andy, what does the domestic manufacturing mean for your customers, especially in today’s market where tariffs are top of mind? Andrew Meyer (13:21) This is like hot topic number one right now. ⁓ man, especially with a continually moving target on what’s going out there in the landscape. It’s actually, you know, we’ve definitely seen an uptick in a lot of smaller fabricators and smaller shops kind of turning to us. And I think, you know, as they’ve gone out to source, Will Hanke (13:23) Right. Andrew Meyer (13:43) fabrics, they’re running into some obstacles. Whether we talk about the tariff, we talk about delays in getting material overseas, there’s definitely been an uptick for us, which is great. And one of the things that we always vocalize is, hey, we are one of the last standing domestic manufacturers of what we do, which is good and bad. It definitely provides opportunities so that we can continue to provide US made goods. Now I will give the disclaimer that you know some of the material raw materials that we have to source there are components that come from various places. We try to source as much domestic raw material as we can. However we’ve got limitations too. So we do have to go overseas for some stuff. But it is a awe inspiring moment when you you’re having a conversation you’re meeting with them you’re on the phone whatever it is and they say well so you guys actually make this stuff in Indiana. So absolutely. So ⁓ It is, it’s a humbling experience to be able to still provide that for people. Will Hanke (14:38) Yeah, I’m having more of those conversations with potential customers for our business as well. That’s something that is definitely top of mind right now. So ⁓ as more dealers start to fabricate in-house, what do you think is really driving that shift? Andrew Meyer (14:49) Absolutely. Randy Meppelink (14:58) I, yeah, well, I mean, what’s driving it is control, right? I mean, now you’re able to control, when you can start building it yourself and allying yourself with the correct suppliers to get what you need, you get to control the narrative of what you’re supplying. And, you know, people say, sometimes I hear it’s like, we’re not near big enough, you know, we’re not large. No, yes, you are, okay? If you build, Andrew Meyer (14:59) I’ll Randy answer that. Randy Meppelink (15:22) If you were gonna do 25 shades a week, okay, on a very small scale, there are ways to jump into fabrication that you can do that and you can, and margin and profit is not a bad word, right? And it’s all what people want, you wanna put that onto your products. so if you can build it, you can definitely be successful. Will Hanke (15:46) Yeah. Randy, as you work with those types of businesses, are there any patterns that you see in the people that have success implementing that? Randy Meppelink (15:57) Yeah, know, some of the biggest ones are, and shade people or window covering people in general, if they’ve been in business for a while, they’re very ingenuitive, intuitive, they’re very, you know, I never, I should let me back up. I am always amazed and I’m always learning from other people and unique. procedures. Just the other day I was working with an audio visual company and they told me a way that they were installing a shade system behind columns in an office building and they were mounting it on a board first and then putting the board up behind and then mounting the board. It’s like I never heard of that idea before. It’s that’s fascinating. It’s great. It makes complete sense. You’re not trying to tuck yourself in behind and mount a bracket. So window covering people, by far in the majority, are set up to do that. Because they do have to figure out unique things in a lot of unique situations. Will Hanke (16:57) Yeah, yeah, so two part question. How hard is it to get started on the fabricating of shades? And then what are some common misconceptions or fears people might have about going down that Randy Meppelink (17:12) So the hardness to get started is what pieces of equipment do I need to make the shades? If I’m going to do roller shades or outdoor shades, do I need from a saw to a welder to inspection hoist to a cutting table? Those four pieces of equipment are your most important pieces of equipment. And then we would look at with a fabricator that’s looking at doing it or even one that’s starting it on a small scale. What type of space requirements do you have in your building? Make sure they understand that if they’re going to go into building outdoor shades, those extrusions come 19 to 20 foot long. So you may not be able to stand those up in your building. Now they’re going to be, how do you store them? And that being said, also understanding what freight costs can be. So if you’re ordering extrusion and it’s 19 foot long links, you’re at the high end of what your trucking companies are going to charge because there’s a thing that they call extreme length charge. And that’s going to be a big fee. And if they’re residentially, let’s say they’re a fabricator that’s working out of their shop or barn or garage or whatever, because we run into that, that’s also a piece that’s going to be, OK, now you’ve got that fee on top of it. So those are just some of the things that we try to. point out to them as they’re going along and they want to step into that fabrication world. Andy can pass the ball to Andy here. I like this on the screen. can move it over. But freight costs probably are one that you see a lot too as well. Andrew Meyer (18:43) Absolutely, it’s, you know, especially with kind of what you just mentioned about how the companies is the longer you go, the worse it gets. I mean, we do a lot of wide format material. So when we’re sending out 10 foot long rolls, it’s, know, these guys will run it through a quoting process. And it’s kind of like, okay, you you want five skids of this stuff. you’re up against ⁓ some logistic stuff as well. So definitely those things that you kind of as a fabricator, you got to keep that in mind how to build that in. Will Hanke (19:06) You Yeah, yeah, definitely an important piece of it. since we’re on this kind of thread a little bit, what is your guys take on how fabrication affects margin lead time and just overall business control? Randy Meppelink (19:32) So one of the things, and I’ll talk from a fabricator to a supplier a little bit here, So understanding what lead times can be and fabrics, everything that you want to order, we all want to order as a fabricator on a just in time, right? We all want to bring it. We want to order when we need it. And we’re assuming that our supplier stocks it. maybe, but they’re If you walk a mile in their shoes, they can’t stock everything either. So it’s a fine line of material availability. And that’s the first thing. Am I right, Andy, on that? I mean, that’s it. Andrew Meyer (20:11) Yeah, I believe we got an order from a company called Window Products the other day asking, I’m going to send somebody down to pick up a couple of rolls. I said, hold on, let me make sure I got these. Randy Meppelink (20:22) And it was even after close, will you set the rules outside the building? We’ll pick it up at 2 a.m. in the morning or whatever. Andrew Meyer (20:24) It was! No, there’s a lot of truth in that and I think a lot of it starts with managing expectations. Whether it’s all the way down at the end, end fabricator going straight to the consumer or all the way coming up through us and providing the material to the industry. As long as we set those expectations, everybody should be set up for success. So Randy just mentioned, a lot of the times we do our production, should say that, we do a significant amount of production as made to order. However, while we’re doing that, we’re trying to anticipate what the market is going to do based on forecasting from some of our larger customers. So we’ll go ahead and try to run stock on three, four, or five different colors in a certain category of material. It doesn’t always work out perfectly that way, or there are situations where large orders come in and completely evaporates your your inventory. we tell customers, hey, we’re about a three week turn on narrow width materials. We’re up to four weeks on wide width materials. And that’s just how our production scheduling runs. But we try to beat those expectations 99 % of the Will Hanke (21:39) Sure. Yeah. Under promise, over deliver, right? So I’d like to, yeah, I’d like to kind of dive into the whole, like the importance of quality materials, domestic sourcing, that kind of stuff. Andy, ICF is more than just a fabric supplier. Can you walk us through what else you guys actually do for your partners? Randy Meppelink (21:43) Exactly. Andrew Meyer (21:45) set it up back, let somebody pick it up. Absolutely, absolutely. So as I mentioned in the beginning, we are known for our four ply vinyl blackout lamination. That’s what we do. We make four ply vinyl blackout day in and day out. We do a lot of other things. We do an artist material for the art and entertainment industry. So if you picture people doing murals in kind of high end office settings or even high end homes. ⁓ We have a lot of artists that will paint these murals in studio and then reapply it in the final installation. And it’s a 100 % cotton weave that we do some acrylic coating to it to prime it and basically make it ready for the artist to do their work. That is actually one of my favorite things to work on because it is such a niche product, but yet it has such a wonderful traction and who we deal with. So one of the things I’ve been working a lot is how to grow that side of our business just because we actually work straight with the end artists. We don’t go through any dealers or any wholesalers or anything. So that’s kind of a fun thing we do. ⁓ Projection screen, which I mentioned, we do a lot of projection screen that gets used in kind of educational format, office settings, things like that. But we do a lot of converting work. And that’s been a huge growth sector for us. So we’ve got some pretty sizable ⁓ customers out there in the market that will send us material, whether they want to take a material that had some opacities to it and they want to make it a blackout. So we’ll go ahead and finish it with lamination to convert it into a blackout format. We might take a material and apply an FR package to it. apply, like I mentioned earlier, apply a waterproofing package to it. Still, it’s a finished product, but they want to offer it in a couple different ways. I will say from us being domestic and doing what we do, we have been on a mission to, we got rid of the bad anemone a handful of years ago. We’re now about 96, 7 % of the way there to get rid of anemone in its entirety. So for all of the fabric people out there, the anemone, there was a good anemone and a bad anemone. And like I said, we got rid of the bad one many years ago and now we’re getting rid of the good one so we can be completely free of the anemone additive to make ⁓ an FR package. So we’re really excited about that. And I think being domestic, we kind of have that… that ability or that foresight to know Massachusetts, California, these states that are being very proactive and trying to get rid of that stuff, we’ve got our ear to the ground so we can be able to kind of try to be ahead of the game. And so when those things do happen and when those changes happen, we’re ready to go, we’re ready to pivot, or we already have. So yeah, we dabble a little bit in, ⁓ like I mentioned earlier, the industrial market. And in that sense, we’re taking material and we’re putting a neoprene finishing to it. We’re making it a conductive material so that we’ve got a customer that uses this material and there’s a lot of static electricity in the application that they use. And we need to make sure that a current can pass through the fabric and so that there’s no charge being built up. So… We get to do a lot of fun stuff. It’s just not stuff that the end user is typically aware of, because we’re so early on in the process, but a lot of different things that we do. Will Hanke (25:31) very cool Will Hanke (25:31) So Andy, let’s talk about US-based sourcing. It’s a hot topic right now. How are you seeing the industry shift and what’s kind of driving that demand? Andrew Meyer (25:41) Absolutely. Us as a supplier here domestically, we’ve definitely seen an uptick. And we’ve even seen it where we’ve got customers asking us, where do your raw materials come from? And we exhaust every measure possible to provide domestic raw material sources. And as I mentioned earlier, we still have to get some things from overseas. It’s just the way the industry is. but it’s definitely something that is actively being sought after. And it’s something that is part of an active conversation when you’re introducing yourself as a textile manufacturer, people are digging to find out where does this stuff come from? So it is very much a hot topic. Will Hanke (26:22) Yeah, Randy, anything to add to that? Randy Meppelink (26:25) ⁓ it’s I agree with everything Andy is saying for sure. And, you know, we’re even adding on the machinery side of things. We’re building one particular cutting machine model now in the United States. We are soon working on some other projects as well. We’re manufacturing it here only because of the uncertainty of we don’t know where with the whole global thing of where it’s going and not to be political. We don’t know where you know we don’t know where tariffs are going to go. But you know I will say it seems like they’re here to stay for a while. So as good as any good businessman would do or woman you’re going to reinvent yourself in today’s economy and you’re going to say OK if it’s going to be US sourcing that’s what we’re going to work on. And that’s and we’re we’re definitely making a push on that whether it’s with working with Indiana Coated Fabrics on a couple of fabrics that they can do that and whether that or with other fabric suppliers that are manufacturing the fabric here in the United States, you know, we definitely want to be sourcing locally when possible now for sure. Will Hanke (27:33) Yes. So, let’s let’s jump in on the tariff thing just a little bit ⁓ without going too deep into the politics side of it. How are they impacting dealers and how does working with a domestic supplier help them? Andrew Meyer (27:37) boy. Ha ha ha. Randy Meppelink (27:40) Yeah. So the dealers are seeing pass-through tariffs. We’re passing through tariffs as we get tariffs added to ours, whether it’s on tariffs with our component suppliers, machinery, all of it. mean, there’s basically anything that’s coming into the United States now has a tariff on it of at least 10%. Now, that 10 % is not 10 % to the dealer. So what we do is we need to We need to figure out that number as it trickles down because what we saw, and there are suppliers out there that are charging 10 % tariff. And when you question them, like, well, that’s what the tariff is. But they’re buying it here and selling it here. They’re using it as a profit generator. And in my opinion, and Andy and I have had long talk, we kind of both agree. Andrew Meyer (28:33) Mm-hmm. Randy Meppelink (28:42) I don’t want to do it as a profit generator, but it’s not something we as manufacturers can absorb either. But we need to find that right number to pass along. I think that’s key as how you do that. A 10 % tariff trickles down to a 4 to 6 % tariff somewhere down that line. And not every product that’s even products that we source in the US use componentry or parts of that product that they have to get from overseas. So even a US-sourced manufactured product can still have a tariff applied to it of a small percentage. Andrew Meyer (29:17) Yes. Will Hanke (29:23) Yeah, but it’s not 10 % because it’s either not fully from overseas parts or they’re doing 10 % off of the final price instead of their actual costs. Randy Meppelink (29:34) Yep, exactly. Andrew Meyer (29:34) Exactly, ⁓ We, much like Randy, we are in a similar boat. We’ve implemented a surcharge on our invoicing. We went out to every single, not every single, almost every single customer, whether we sat down with them, got on the phone, got on Teams calls, and basically talked through it and said, hey, we have been forced. Here’s where we’re going. You know, we talk about our Will Hanke (29:36) Yeah. Andrew Meyer (29:58) our raw material supply chain. We talk about how our fiberglass weave, while that’s a domestic weaver, they’re getting the yarn from India or wherever it might be. So it trickles down as Randy said. The gratifying part is after I have these conversations with all these customers of, we do have to start implementing a surcharge for the tariff, we come out to about 3.5 % is what we’ve had to put down. What I’m hearing is some of these companies like Randy had mentioned are absolutely gouging customers on just dropping this full tariff amount. it doesn’t make sense, and you’re not doing anybody justice by doing it this way. I guess maybe in the long run it’ll help us, and people will steer away from trying to source those materials from people that are just not playing a good game. But it’s almost in everything that we’re doing and we have to do it. It’s the only way to continue to go forward. But I can say with confidence that we have kept it as absolutely low as possible. And we’re gonna be reflective of what happens with the US administration. As Randy said, yeah, it’s probably gonna be here for a while. If it changes, if it goes down, we’ll make it go down. We don’t want this thing on there any more than the customer wants it. will be reactive as the government reacts. Will Hanke (31:23) I think there’s something smart about being transparent with it. Like you said, just opening a conversation. I think that’s pretty smart. for the ones that are just blanket adding a percentage, when we see an economy kind of go down a lot, a lot of those companies start to feel the pressure and it shakes them out. And the cream rises to the top, I guess you could say. As my mom would say, they’ll get their comeuppance, right? Andrew Meyer (31:50) hahahaha Will Hanke (31:53) So Andy, going to toss you a little bit of a softball here. For businesses that want more control over product quality, turnaround time, what are the advantages of partnering with a US-based fabricator like ICF? Andrew Meyer (32:08) Absolutely. I will say first and foremost, turnaround time. Even though we’re gonna give you the expectation of roughly a three week turn, it’s gonna be typically a lot quicker than that. You’re not sitting here waiting on a ship to come overseas. You don’t have to buy an entire container. We will sell you two rolls if that’s all that you need. Would I like to sell you a container? Absolutely. But we have the flexibility of doing a a single roll all the way up to 20 skids. So whatever the application might be. And we have a lot of flexibility because we have so many different coloring options, we have so many different finishing options. All of this being right here in the Midwest, we can do it fast and we do it with the utmost quality and we source as much of a quality component as possible. Will Hanke (32:59) That’s awesome. Thank you for that. So both of you, as you mentioned earlier, Randy, you guys are going to be at the Sun Shading Expo in November. ⁓ What can people that attend that show expect to see there? Randy Meppelink (33:08) We are. Well, we, so we’re gonna wet the whistle on our booth, we’re not gonna, we’re just gonna say is we’re gonna have an experienced booth, okay? And we invite you to come by our booth and have, we’re gonna have a really good time, okay? And while having a good time, we’re really gonna be able to talk to you about what our theme is, taking it from fabric to finish, okay? And that’s kind of why, you know, we have Indiana Coated Window Products, Global Machine Innovation with us and UltraCut, okay, where we’re the, together with those companies and we invite you to see why we’ve partnered with them. And, Will, one of the things, and I think I said this before, but, you know, we speak fabricator. So when we talk machines at the show, OK? We’re walking the walk, right? I mean, we’re talking to machine. We’re not just a machine company that sells a particular line of machine. And it’s a cure-all for everything. And it does everything. We sell the machines we use every day. And that’s why when someone comes up here to see us, it’s really unique. anyway, back to the show. We got it. We’re in Indianapolis, and that’s the race capital of the world. And that’s going to be my intro as to a little bit about what to come to expect to see ⁓ at our ⁓ booth. Will Hanke (34:41) Alright, fair enough, fair enough. So they can come for the experience, but they can also bring questions, like real world questions that you guys will actually be able to answer. Andrew Meyer (34:42) Definitely. Absolutely, we are going to be there showcasing everything from fabric as if you just needed to get fabric and how that then translates into the process of fabricating a shade. So stepping you through from the beginning all the way to a finished product. And that way we can field questions. Hey, I’ve got technical questions on the material. I’ve got technical questions on the end use of the fabricated shade or anything in between. So we’re really excited to be able to kind of create this kind of three dimensional approach utilizing ultra cut window products in ourselves in a booth setting. So I will say you better race to get to our booth. What? Will Hanke (35:33) I like that. I have a booth as well. hope mine is facing towards yours so I can see some of the fun, right? Should be good. So what role does collaboration between companies like yours play in helping dealers succeed? Randy? Randy Meppelink (35:50) So really, where that comes in is when we start with a fabricator, we start talking to them about a cutting table and then fabric. We have that conversation typically then about, well, where do I get fabrics from? What’s my best sources? And that’s where our partnerships like with Ediana Coated is. We want to tell the story to that fabricator. We want to say, we’re going to put you in touch with Andy. You need to talk to him. And they’re going to take care of your needs in this particular line of fabric. And if you need this style of fabric, we’re going to guide you in those directions. And motorization, same thing. Some of the products we sell, we’re not taking any back end or commission or anything. We’re just wanting, we want them to be successful. Because. to borrow a term from a friend of mine who’s retired out of the industry, but John Fitzgerald, and I got to call his name out, he was the vice president of Comfort Tax, him and Tom Marczak, but he coined the term a long time ago, your success is our success. And when he said that, I’ve always remembered that. That was 25 years ago when he said that at a meeting. that really is, their success, a fabricator’s success is my success, it’s Andy’s success. And that’s how we. That’s how we grow together. Will Hanke (37:08) Yeah, yeah, there’s something really good about as a business owner or representative of being a coach for somebody. So they come into your booth, we need fabric. go talk to that guy. You know, you’re the resource, but you’ve also kind of brought them all together in one spot. That’s fantastic. Andrew Meyer (37:08) Absolutely. Absolutely. Will Hanke (37:28) Yeah, really cool. What are you guys most excited to showcase at the expo? And you’ve kind of already hinted to some sort of surprise, but I’m curious what you guys are excited to showcase. Andrew Meyer (37:40) I think it’ll be fun that we’re gonna be able to demonstrate the fabricating of a shade. We’re gonna be able to demonstrate kind of all that is involved with that. But obviously there’s gonna be some fun stuff for them to do when they step into the booth. But yeah, being able to showcase this 360 degree approach, whether it’s a wholesaler, whether it’s an end fabricator, we can touch all these different points of the market with one stop. Randy Meppelink (38:06) We’re going to have a new cutting table, brand new design. This cutting table is designed for the entry level person that wants to get into shade fabrication, whether indoors or outdoors. And we’re super excited about that. We’ll have a mini model of it for display and operation. then we have on the outdoor side with Ultra-Cut, we’ll have some of our new products our new welding equipment with that as well. we’ve got some brand new stuff coming to the market that we’re excited to share. Will Hanke (38:36) And as you mentioned, the ⁓ Sun Shading Expo is in November. This is 2025 that you’re listening to it right now. Excited to do that. Obviously it’s in Indiana. As a midwesterner, that’s fantastic for me. I can drive to it. That doesn’t happen very often, but I guess you guys probably can too, right? Randy Meppelink (38:53) Correct? Will Hanke (38:55) That’s awesome. So a couple quick bonus questions for somebody who’s listening and considering the in-house fabrication. What’s the first step they should realistically take? Randy Meppelink (39:08) Wanting to if, OK, the first step is preparing your budget. How much do you want to spend to get in? OK, now, that being said, nobody wants to spend more than they have to. ⁓ but realistically, come up with a realistic number of what is where you’re at. And you might be shocked at what it takes to get into making shades. Will Hanke (39:21) You Randy Meppelink (39:35) It may not be as high as what you think it is. A lot of people from the machine side of things here, and they see all the fancy XYZ type CNC cutting machines, they can be very expensive. They can be very, ⁓ what’s the word I’m trying to think of, awe-inspiring. It’s like, wow, do I really need all that? we did a test here. ⁓ on Thursday, we had an XY table and we had an operator working on a Y-axis only table. And we timed it in a good shade cutter, outcut the XY, the computer table. And we were all shocked. And because if we were all betting, we would have thought the XY was faster. But it wasn’t. And it is in some cases. it’s not. And so really, start out with your budget. Space requirements, how much, you know, come talk, when you talk to me, I’m going to ask you those questions. I’m going to say, how big a space do you have? Okay. We can do a layout for you. You know, Mitch in our office will actually do a factory layout on a CAD system as to how your factory should look like. You know, what, that needs to see. And, and then how much space do you have to store fabric? You know, we want you to store a lot of Indiana coated fabrics. So it’s ready and available to make shades. Will Hanke (40:51) Okay. That’s good. Thank you for kind of laying that out. Big picture. What trend do you guys will shake up the window covering world in the next three to five years? Andrew Meyer (41:10) I think the exterior side of that business is gonna continue to just be explosive, something we’re gonna be paying a lot attention to. And I think a lot of the work that we’ve been doing lately, we’re seeing a lot of, ⁓ man, how do I say this? We’re seeing a lot of textiles that… didn’t necessarily come to the market as a blackout format are now having that option added. So I think you’re going to see a lot more design centric be. in combination with those types of characteristics. I think you’re also going to see some more dual shade stuff come out too. I mean, I know there’s a good portion of it, but ⁓ we’re seeing a lot more requests of, we want this fabric of yours to be in conjunction with this other fabric that we’re sourcing for a dual shade purpose. yeah, that’s my crystal ball, but by no means is it crystal clear. Will Hanke (42:04) Yeah. All right. Anything to add, Randy? Randy Meppelink (42:06) I would agree on ⁓ looking in the same crystal ball on outdoor shades and dual shades. Those are the two fastest growing categories we see. And for a fabricator, since we’re talking to fabricators in this podcast, a dual shade is two shades on one window. That’s twice as much product that you can make. those are opportunities, not negatives. Those are opportunities for growth. Will Hanke (42:35) good, very good. If my wife knew that there was such a thing, I’m sure she would order it, right? Not necessarily because she needs it, just because she wants it, right? So thank you guys for being on today. ⁓ If somebody wants to learn a little bit more and connect with you guys, what is the best way for them to do so? We’ll start with Randy. Randy Meppelink (42:56) OK, so emailing our company is probably the best way. We will always talk to you on the phone. Don’t get me wrong. But with the amount of phone calls that come in, it’s very difficult to as much time and effort as you are not effort, but as much time into speaking to everybody. email is the best that we can get started and then kind of gives us some direction. Great way we’ll respond. I’ll get you to the right persons in the company here, whether it’s machinery, fabrication, new products, that type of thing. at that would be randy @ window products inc inc.com so randy@windowproductsinc.com and I’ll direct that email and I respond to everybody so I will definitely respond back. Will Hanke (43:24) Okay, what is that email? Okay, perfect. Awesome, we’ll put that in the show notes as well if anybody wants to, if you’re driving and can’t write that down at the moment, we’ll make sure that you get that. How about you, Andy? Andrew Meyer (43:48) ⁓ Yeah, very similar setup to what Randy mentioned. ⁓ By all means, check out ⁓ www.indianacoatedfabrics.com A good amount of resource on there to kind of illustrate what it is we do and the different sectors that we kind of play in. But also, shoot me an email. ⁓ Phone calls are great, but kind of like Randy said, it’s just constantly… bouncing off the hook here, but Andrew.Meyer M-E-Y-E-R @ indianacoatedfabrics.com. Will Hanke (44:19) Awesome. And again, we’ll put that in the show notes with a link to your website and everything. Thank you guys. Any last thoughts for professionals trying to grow in this industry? Randy Meppelink (44:30) My biggest one, as you’re going to hear this before the trade show, go to the Sun Shading Expo in Indianapolis. Please. It’s a great opportunity. you’re considering fabrication, or if you’re considering even looking for new suppliers, whether it’s fabrics, or components for your motors, or anything in our industry, go to the trade shows. Trade shows are so important. And this one. This sun shading expo is really geared towards rolling products, things that roll up, up and down. That’s the biggest part of our industry right now. And if you’re selling that, you need to be there. Andrew Meyer (45:10) Same sentiment is come check out the show. Indianapolis is an extremely easy city to get to, whether by car or by plane. And obviously being downtown focused, the show itself is going to be so well contained that it’s just very accessible and there’s going to be lots and lots of great stuff there for people to check out. Will Hanke (45:29) Yeah, it’s a great show. I’ve attended the last three or four years in a row now and it seems like it gets bigger every year. It’s fantastic. Yeah. Well, thank you guys again for being on the show today. You shared some fantastic things that ⁓ that really, really can help people that are maybe thinking or maybe they weren’t even thinking of going that route. So they’ll reach out to you, hopefully. Randy Meppelink (45:38) Absolutely, it has been. Will Hanke (45:55) to talk a little bit more about that. But thanks for giving us kind of a behind the scenes look at what’s really possible for dealers to take fabrication into their own hands. Randy Meppelink (46:05) Well, thank you. Thanks for having us. Andrew Meyer (46:06) Yes, yeah, thank you Will Hanke (46:06) Yeah, Andrew Meyer (46:07) for having, yes, thank you so much. It was a lot of fun. Will Hanke (46:07) yeah, appreciate it. Yeah, if this got you thinking about the next step for your business, whether it’s sourcing smarter, fabricating in-house, or simply finding more control in your process, I hope you found something actionable today. As always, if you enjoyed the episode, consider subscribing or sharing it with someone in the industry who might find it helpful. You can find more episodes and resources over at Window Treatment Marketing Pros on YouTube. Spotify, iTunes, and all the usual places. Until our next episode at Marketing Panes thanks for listening.

In this episode of Marketing Panes, we sit down with Ryan Murray, the visionary CEO who acquired a 29-year-old shutter factory—and scaled it by 20% in just one year. Ryan shares the behind-the-scenes strategies that transformed a legacy window treatment manufacturer into a booming modern business. Discover how Ryan leveraged local manufacturing as a unique advantage. Hear how automation and tech upgrades reshaped his operations—from payroll to customer experience. Learn why follow-up is more than just a sales tip—it's a growth engine. Get the scoop on SBA loans and funding strategies that helped fuel their expansion.

Guests Profile: Joe Kendall President – Made in the Shade Eastern Shore Owns Kendall furniture , Made in the shade dealer went from 58th place, to 5th place, to second place and in 2024 #1 Volume dealer in North America Ryan Gilberts Owner of Shaded Window Coverings With over a decade in the window covering industry, Ryan launched Shaded Window Coverings in 2022 to bring his vision to life. Starting as an installer and moving into sales, he quickly mastered the business and took the leap to entrepreneurship. Now, nearly three years later, his company is thriving, recently securing a six-figure project for 1,900 shades in a new apartment complex. Other Notes/Links: To learn more about Joe Kendall visit: MITS Eastern Shore Ryan Gilberts visit: Shaded Window Coverings pssst…. want to be a guest on the show? Listen to other episodes Video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhI2cJpxIu8&ab_channel=WindowTreatmentMarketingPros Click here to display Transcript Transcript Will Hanke (00:00) All right, everyone. Welcome to another episode of marketing panes, the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers or business owners about their strengths, about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. Today is our Q2 preview. We’re going to talk about what happened in Q1. We’re going to talk about what we think is coming up in Q2. I’ve got two guests with some great insights that I’m excited to interview. First of all, we got Joe Kendall, president of Made in the Shades Eastern Shore. Joe owns Kendall Furniture, a Made in the Shade dealership. He went from 58th place to fifth place in the Made in the Shade franchise, then second place, and in 2002, 2024 became the number one volume dealer in North America. Joe, thanks for being on the show today. Ryan Gilberts (00:31) Okay. Joe Kendall (00:40) you You’re very welcome. We’re happy to be here. Will Hanke (00:57) Thank you. We’ve also got Ryan Gilbert’s Ryan owns Shaded Window Coverings in Montana. Shaded Shaded Window Covering started in May 2022 after Ryan was working for some other businesses in the window covering industry over the last 10 years. He wanted to. He first started in the industry as a part time installer, then moved to lead installer position and eventually a hybrid role of installer and salesperson. Ryan Gilberts (00:58) you Will Hanke (01:27) Now almost three years later, there’s really no turning back. He’s just started his largest sixth figure project, 1900 shades for an apartment building under construction. Ryan, thank you for joining as well. Ryan Gilberts (01:39) Thanks, Will. Will Hanke (01:40) 1900 so you’re going be a little bit busy I guess for at least the next couple days right? Ryan Gilberts (01:44) Fortunately, it’s being built out in stages. Will Hanke (01:46) Awesome. Yeah, that’s great. Congrats on that. So I want to start by talking about some different industry trends. What emerging trends are you guys seeing in the industry right now? And how can other window treatment dealers kind of align with these trends to stay competitive? Joe Kendall (02:02) Ryan, think what you’re doing is, Ryan and I spoke a little bit beforehand, Will, and we really love that the exterior market is exploding. you need to make sure you’re talking to your clients because they don’t know all the cool things you know as far as that goes. I was talking to Ryan and we were discussing how you might go into a customer wants to get some roller shades up on four windows that are consecutive. Ryan Gilberts (02:12) Yeah. Joe Kendall (02:28) And you leave the house with an exterior roller shade motorized. their beautiful in-tort, their trim on the inside is left alone. It’s gorgeous. And they can have that true builder look, but yet get the results they need when they need them. I think the exterior, and people, great too. I think they expect to pay more for exterior blinds. And it’s with the warranties that some of these manufacturers are offering, it’s really a great way to go. Ryan Gilberts (02:55) Yeah, I got to agree on that too, but. Will Hanke (02:57) Yeah, I like that. Ryan, are you seeing something similar? Ryan Gilberts (02:59) So yeah, I mean I like the exterior products They’re definitely a little bit more sleek, but they’re definitely a touch more expensive than some people anticipate But the cool thing is there’s a vast majority of dealers or I should say vendors that are starting to manufacture those and get into the market so I Don’t think price points all gonna be all that Will Hanke (03:21) I know when we talked with some of our guests on the Q1 podcast that we had talked about, they mentioned the luxury buyers are really popping up more. Are you guys seeing that as well? Ryan Gilberts (03:32) Absolutely. Joe Kendall (03:33) yeah. Yeah. Our average ticket for the last six months is up about 15%. Will Hanke (03:38) Okay. Joe Kendall (03:38) You know, we were in the $4,400 average ticket. We’re now in that a hair over 5,000, 5,200 area, which I think is just people are buying nicer stuff. Will Hanke (03:48) Yeah, I think that’s a great point. when I started in this industry as the marketing guy, about seven years ago, we niche down specifically just to the window treatment and awning industry. The average job was 2,500, 3,000. So obviously part of that is, I guess you could say inflation, but also I think it’s just people are buying better quality stuff. Ryan Gilberts (04:03) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Joe Kendall (04:11) And, you know, there was always… Go ahead, Ryan, I’m sorry. Ryan Gilberts (04:11) Absolutely. no, I was just saying absolutely. But I would probably say a year ago, I kind of crossed over that bridge with Hunter Douglas and became one of their dealers. But I will say that going into that bridge and are going into that realm of the market and being able to offer those very high quality products, my ticket sales have definitely increased tremendously. And I’m also getting a lot of those larger ticket deals and showing them. The cool stuff, I guess you can say. Joe Kendall (04:40) You know, and I train, we have two full-time salespeople. I still train them and remind them of the famous, you know, Bloomingdale’s three bread maker stories about a good, better, best versus just a good or a best. And, you know, I encourage my people that when they’re presenting a product, and let’s say they’re talking about a Roman shade or they’re talking about a roller shade, and you pop out a Hunter Douglas vignette, you know, I’m a big believer in telling the client straight up, hey, this is a more expensive product. There’s a decent chance, you the average salesperson might think, God, they’re going to be bummed. But really they go, cool, this is what I want. And I always like to tell people, because obviously if a roller shade was $49, we’d sell everybody we talked to. But not being afraid of the more expensive products and sharing with your customer, hey look. Ryan Gilberts (05:18) Okay. . Joe Kendall (05:32) This is a more expensive product, but let me tell you why and what you get. And then it’s like, well, this makes perfect sense. selling higher up, it takes work. But if you do it right, it really, really can pay off. Ryan Gilberts (05:37) Okay. I gotta agree with you on that. Definitely education with your customers or clients is I think gonna make you stand above the crowd and definitely show your worth and then also get those larger ticket items. Joe Kendall (05:56) Definitely, definitely. Will Hanke (05:57) I love the idea of upselling, right? You already got them on the hook. Now if you can walk out with 10 % more than you thought you’d get or something like that, it’s a fantastic growth strategy for your business. Joe Kendall (06:08) You know, I’m going to share a quick story if I could, Will. When I first started selling 30 years, 35 years ago, I was selling roofs and my closing ratio was excellent, but my gross profit was just barely average. So the owner says, Joe, I want you to go out to dinner tonight with Zeke, who’s our highest profit guy. makes a thousand dollars or more than you a week. He’s going to teach you how to sell higher. And I was like, my God, this is going to change everything. We go out to happy hour drinking, long story short, we get to midnight, we’re at 7-Eleven, we’ve had some cocktails. And I said, Zeke, we’re gonna be in deep trouble, you didn’t train me tonight. And we ran up the owner’s credit card. So Zeke can barely stand up and he asked the cashier, says, for a napkin and a pen. And I said, sure. So Zeke goes, here you go, on a 20 square roof, what’s your opening price? I said, well, I usually start around 4,200. Zeke burps up some beer and says, okay, try it again, but this time instead of writing a four down, write a five. And the moral of story is just open up a little higher and you’ll get more, it’ll make a higher sale. It’s that simple. Just start a little higher. And I always remind people you can’t go up, but you can go down. So that’s one of my favorite training stories. Will Hanke (07:17) I love that you were able to write the night off on the. Joe Kendall (07:19) You So. Will Hanke (07:20) Draining Cool, that’s great. I love to hear that so Quick disclaimer both of you guys are clients of window treatment marketing pros So you guys are obviously, you know doing the SEO stuff doing the paid ads. I wanted to talk a little bit more about professional connections Local networking those kinds of things. What are you guys doing in that area to help generate leads and maybe even longer-term relationships? Joe Kendall (07:49) Go ahead, Ryan. Ryan Gilberts (07:50) To generate leads, mean, I’m talking to the sphere of people that I hang out with. I’m pretty fortunate with the area in Montana that I’m at. We have a lot more cattle than we do people. So the people that I’m dealing with are going to be a lot of business owners. The 1900 shade project that I got was due to one of my good buddies that is doing all the dirt work for this project. He just simply sent a text and said, who does all your shades? call this guy. So it’s, really the sphere of people that I’m dealing with, but also kind of going back to what Joe was just saying about getting those higher ticket items, dealing with those larger, more expensive products. It’s actually the word of mouth of those people. You know, I’m, I’m giving them good, good solid products, great service, and they’re just talking to more people. As far as the marketing aspect goes that you can actually pinpoint where your dollars are going. I still do local marketing. I don’t know if you guys have Valpac over on the East Coast or what have you, but Valpac is one of them. I am in with a lot of magazines for top realtors and also in magazines that just strictly market the top 1 % of homeowners in the area. And I also do TV commercials. Joe Kendall (09:02) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it’s the old saying that, you know, half of my advertising works. I just don’t know which half, but I know this plug for Will, Will’s works. So without a doubt, one of the things I’m going to we’re talking to people in the industry. I simply for sake of a better term, pay off real estate agents that are sitting in a new neighborhood. Will Hanke (09:02) Okay, Joe. Ryan Gilberts (09:12) Yep. Joe Kendall (09:23) It’s just what I do. There’s a neighborhood and I went and talked to them and gave them. There’s a great restaurant company in town that has about 10 awesome restaurants. One gift card. I gave them each a $500 gift card. people might think that’s a lot, but all I got to do is get one purchase and I’m even. And I love giving that gift so big. that now they feel guilty. Like they have to get me referrals now. You know, they’re the ones that are like, my God. So I love real estate agents. Word of mouth is the big thing. I love taking every service call that we should charge a hundred bucks for and not charging them and telling the people we should charge you. But if you get me a referral, you meet somebody who’s talking about window coverings, just make sure you pass my name along. Ryan Gilberts (09:56) Mm-hmm. Joe Kendall (10:06) Since you saved them 200 bucks, now they feel the guilt where they, gosh, we gotta find Joe a referral. So I love doing that. One thing too, this is gonna be the, well, the basketball going on. You’ve heard like, you know, the five star lock of the week, the team you have to bet on. Here’s my five star lock of the week, Will. Change how you respond to five star reviews. Don’t say thank you. Don’t say, well, obviously say thank you. but use that review time, the response, to sell. Hey, we really love Tom the installer, he was great. Hey, that’s awesome. Tom, like all of our installers, is completely certified and has been with us for X amount of time. Tom’s been through four certifications in XYZ and loves his job. Thank you for mentioning him. So when people are reading that, they go, shit, these guys got good people. Or, wow, I love the shutters. And don’t forget, all of our products have a lifetime warranty. So if you have a problem, please call us. Put in your responses to your Google reviews. Selling words, you know, hey, I’m so happy we could get that installed within your quick timeline. Oh, they do stuff quick. So people are reading their reviews, but they’re also going to review, read your responses. So that’s my 50 star pointer. Will Hanke (10:56) You Joe Kendall (11:18) I guess of this podcast is to change how you do your reviews and will do not use AI to do it for you. Be personal that you can be more personal. And again, though, you can you can sell. You got a chance because people are going to read reviews, so make them read stuff that you want to tell them. That’s all. Will Hanke (11:35) Yeah, I love that it’s a missed opportunity if you just say thank you. Ryan Gilberts (11:36) Let me touch base on that. Let me touch base on that review. I love it. I’m a very personable person when it comes to my reviews. give, you know, hey, Cheryl, thank you so much for the great review. It’s been extraordinary working with you, getting your automated roller shades or automated honeycomb shades up for you. But it’s also and I only have one of these a four star review. It’s how you respond to those. I mean, so I’ve been in business for a short time. I, 2022 customer gave me a four star review because I, well, it freezes here and my spackle was frozen that morning to fill in the old screw holes of his vertical blind. That’s why I got a four star review. I responded back with, let me, let me come and earn that fifth star. He never, he never changed his review, but he’s bought four more times since then. Joe Kendall (12:03) Yeah. Right. Okay. Ryan Gilberts (12:31) stuff. That fourth star haunts me. Will Hanke (12:33) That’s awesome. I love that. That’s great. And I love the idea of being personal about it, you know, and replying to each of those individually. AI can get a little dry on it. Obviously also an opportunity to use certain keywords and locations. You know, we really enjoyed installing the window treatments in your Chesterfield home, you know, something like that where it doesn’t violate any privacy type stuff, but Joe Kendall (12:34) Yeah. Yeah. You Will Hanke (12:59) you do get the name of the place in there as well. Joe Kendall (13:02) Mention in the neighborhood, Will. Good point, good point. Will Hanke (13:04) Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. So I want to talk a little bit about expansion. So when it comes to reaching out in your particular area, you know, have a little bit of an advantage because you’re located in that area. And especially Ryan, I’m assuming in Montana, cities are maybe a little bit further apart than they are for Joe. Right. So so how do you handle expansion or driving a certain distance tell us about that. Ryan Gilberts (13:31) Yeah, I I probably cover a two hour span from my location around. So I try to group all my appointments. Sometimes it works out, but I mean, hey, I’ll go over to this part of the neck of the woods and we’ll get a few appointments done that day. We’ll go over to next part of the neck of the woods. So we’ll do that, but I mean, we’re getting a lot more. You can go into the bigger cities and I call them the cities, but you know, it’ll be a little bit more. solid people like you can walk through neighborhoods and things like that still. It’s not, you know, you’re not going on a 40 acre ranch or a 3000 acre ranch and every every house that you go to. A lot of the communities that we’re in, they are going to be in your, would say eight, 900,000 to a million and a half dollar homes when they’re in neighborhoods like that. So Will Hanke (14:15) Yeah. Ryan Gilberts (14:27) They are typically a solid appointment. Will Hanke (14:29) I like that. I like how you stack them together, know, do a couple in one area. Yeah, especially when you’re traveling that far. Joe Kendall (14:32) Yeah, you have to, Ryan Gilberts (14:32) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. For sure. Will Hanke (14:38) Yeah, Joe, what about you? Obviously, things are a little bit more compact in your area. I know you just added another location. Tell us about that. Joe Kendall (14:42) Yep, yep. So we added a second location. The way our town is set up, our area is set up is we’re up against the Atlantic Ocean. So we do half circles. We don’t do full circles, you know? But there’s a really wealthy part, and I opened up on the street to that wealthy neighborhood area. Will Hanke (14:56) you Joe Kendall (15:04) with the idea of getting some stop in traffic and things like that. And we’re also showing higher end goods there. We’re not showing faux blinds in that location. So far so good. We’re making the so-called nut. But it’s like anything. It’s repetition, repetition, customers seeing and hearing about your name and so forth. One nice thing I love about the Maiden the Shade is it’s purple and gray with a tint of yellow. So purple signs kind of stand out a little bit. But it’s a classic, you know. A lot of people who are, nothing wrong with this, but who are trunk slammers and they want to go to that first store. You know, I was mentoring a Made in the Shade dealer and I was like, what hours are you going to be open before you expand? And they said, we’re going to go a nine to two and be closed on Saturday and Sunday. And my response was either going to be a retailer or you’re not going to be a retailer. And retailers are open seven days a week. and depending on your town, till seven o’clock at night. And they’re like, oh, we don’t want to do all that. And I was like, well, then you don’t want to have a store. You don’t want to become a retailer. So I don’t know, if that was more what you were thinking about, like when to expand and so forth. For us, I looked at it like an advertising spend. It’s going to cost me $5,000 a month to have that store. with the people and everything and I figured well hell $5,000 a month a billboard is in my neighborhood is $1,500 a month so it’s like buying two or three billboards but I’ll have a physical person I’ll be on the main drag so there’s a lot to think about before expansion obviously but Will Hanke (16:40) Sure. Yeah, but there’s the nice thing about the window treatment industry is the average job is fairly high as we mentioned earlier. So it doesn’t take a lot to make that money back. Joe Kendall (16:50) No, no, no. Will Hanke (16:51) That’s great. Yeah. So I want to talk to you guys a little bit about partnerships, collaborations. Is there anything that you guys are doing that would be beneficial to the listeners around similar to what you said, Joe, with the real estate people in anything else like that? Joe Kendall (17:08) If there’s new construction in your area, get after those agents that are sitting in the house. That’s your bread and butter. Hey, hi Will, it’s nice to meet you. How long you been with NVR Homes? Hey, where’s your place? Do you have plantation shutters? Would you like to get plantation shutters? And I always say, hey, know, my manufacturer gives me some leeway on some sample products. I love to put some sample products in 10 of your windows. We’ve done that before for people and put plantation shutters in their house. That was in the neighborhood that we got 23 jobs from. It’s just the best $3,000 I ever spent. So I’m a big believer in the real estate agents. I’m a big believer in having someone like Will do your Google buy. I respond, Will will ask me a question, and I’ll say, Will, you’re the pro, buddy. It’s working so far. Don’t ask me. You got that covered. But that’s my one thing I would say is that’s where it’s at. a $100 gift card or a $50 gift card doesn’t do anything. Go to $500. That’s my tip of the day, second tip of the day. Will Hanke (18:10) You Ryan Gilberts (18:11) What? I’ll go off that. There’s an organization here in town called MOR for Kids, so Missoula Organization of Realtors, and it’s a nonprofit for kids. And I am the only window covering person in that organization. And I reach 800 realtors. There’s 800 realtors in the Missoula account. Joe Kendall (18:26) Oof. Ryan Gilberts (18:28) It’s just insane. But I’m the one window covering guy and I’m there competing in all their nonprofit organizations and it’s fun for me. We do a charity kickball tournament. We do a charity golf tournament and we do a winter gala. I get the most donations in the kickball tournament. My team typically always wins in the golf tournament. And last year, I spent the most at the charity and I got the most awards. So that’s kind of how I shotgun blast my name out there. Will Hanke (18:55) Fantastic. Joe Kendall (18:58) Yep, I love it. Will Hanke (18:59) That’s really cool. love that collaboration. Ryan Gilberts (18:59) They all call me Shady Ryan for a reason. Joe Kendall (19:01) I love it. like that. Shady Ryan. I like that. Will Hanke (19:04) That’s great. And at the end of the day, you’re supporting something, right? So there’s that whole PR side of things too, where you can get a little bit of that out there. Ryan Gilberts (19:12) Exactly. Joe Kendall (19:12) That’s, and Ryan’s right on with, what’s your Realtor Association name, Ryan? Ryan Gilberts (19:18) M-O-R. Joe Kendall (19:18) The moon. OK. So we have the Coastal Association of Realtors. Here you go. Every town you’re in has an association of realtors and you can be what’s called a whatever kind of member you are, Ryan. It’s not accessory member, but it has a name. That means you’re not a realtor. Thank you very much, Ryan. Yeah, you’re an affiliate member. you get and with that, Ryan, you also get right emails, phone numbers for everybody, every realtor in town. Ryan Gilberts (19:19) Mozilla organization of realtors. an affiliate. Yep, exactly. Joe Kendall (19:43) So lots of marketing you can do with that. Will Hanke (19:45) Wow, that’s awesome. So cool, we talked to… Go ahead. Ryan Gilberts (19:46) and also building industry associations. Joe Kendall (19:49) Yes, yes, yes. Ryan, I’m gonna get off this phone, off this podcast here, and I’m gonna figure out how I can get a commercial job like that. My biggest commercial job so far is 17 roller shades at a restaurant. But that kind of stuff gets me excited. That gets me wound up. Ryan Gilberts (20:04) Yeah, yeah, we got three more coming in. Will Hanke (20:08) I saw you. Joe Kendall (20:09) Ugh. Will Hanke (20:09) That’s great. Joe, saw your brain ticking back there when he said it. Joe Kendall (20:12) my god, it’s crazy. You can actually see my brain right here. There it is. Will Hanke (20:16) Yeah, so cool. talked about kind of collaborations and partnerships. Let’s switch and talk about the customer. What do you guys do to help build those relationships when it comes to getting into the home or even before you get into the home? Joe Kendall (20:29) So I’ll go first this time, OK. So the like to send. Ryan Gilberts (20:30) I’ll start. just kidding, Joe. You got it. No, no, go ahead. Will Hanke (20:32) Ha! Joe Kendall (20:38) a video or two. If it’s a shutter job, we like to send a video or two. Like to send a link to our five star reviews beforehand. And then we really try, we do try to give a gift. Right now we’re giving away, it costs us about 40 bucks, but it’s a custom made cardboard box. I might have shown this to you well. It’s a custom made cardboard box, purple and yellow paper, and it has four rocks glasses in it, and they’re each engraved. a palm tree, a setting sun. I can’t remember the other two. But given that as a gift and really, you you’re not going to get anything unless you ask for it. And when we give that gift, we like to say, hey, look, anybody ever talks about us, you know? And the thing is, is the kind of cool thing is anytime they get those glasses out and they have guests over, hopefully all come up in conversation. So that’s what we’re really trying to, you know, I’ve come up with the idea of A $10 Starbucks card, if they lose that, who cares? But something that has value in their eyes, that’s what we’re going after for a gift when we ask those customers for the review and for the referrals. Will Hanke (21:39) That’s great. Love that. Ryan, how about you? Ryan Gilberts (21:41) So yeah, so as far as like gifts go, do like, if you know of anyone that needs a window coverings, I’ll do, I give a little gift card or not a gift card, but a little postcard. And there’s three options, like a, like a $50 gift card to Amazon or a hundred dollar gift card to a steak house that I did all their shades in. or I have another a hundred dollar gift card to another buddy that owns a tap house. So, kind of something like that. It’s, it’s supporting my customers already and also trying to get more customers out there. But before I get into a house, the biggest thing that I’ve come to find out, because I’ll tell you guys, cause you see me on a screen. I’m six foot five and 285 pounds. I’m not a small person. So, I always send an appointment reminder to people with this ugly mug and saying, Hey, I’m going to be at your doorstep. It takes a lot of hesitation off of people. Will Hanke (22:34) You Joe Kendall (22:37) Do you have like a height thing? Like you’re in a 7-Eleven doorway showing them how tall you are. Ryan Gilberts (22:42) You know I should, but we don’t need that. Will Hanke (22:45) Yeah. Joe Kendall (22:45) goodness, I love it, I love it. Will Hanke (22:45) That’s I love the tips that you guys have shared. think those are great. Ryan, you mentioned the Amazon card. If somebody came to my house selling something and they mentioned that, I guarantee my wife would be all over that. I mean, she’s just ordering stuff every day off of there. So it’s interesting how far that can go for not a big spend. All right. So one other thing I wanted to ask about challenges. Ryan Gilberts (22:58) Right. Yep. Will Hanke (23:09) and maybe some solutions. What kind of challenges are you guys seeing out there when you’re trying to build those connections, grow your network, and for other people listening, maybe what are some ways that they could overcome those? Ryan Gilberts (23:21) So I can go because I’m the youngest probably in the industry on this podcast right now as far as being in business. My biggest thing is obviously competing. Obviously competing against the bigger names. Fortunately, I don’t have a made in the shade in my local area, but I do have that other cheap fish company that hasn’t I wouldn’t say hasn’t stepped up in the realm of quality and customer service. But I always get with the realtors or with this other person like, hey, we had such and such company already do our shades. We already had this company do them. I already know this guy. So I mean, that’s my biggest hesitation. But then I come in and say, hey, you know what? That’s actually a shade that we also are a dealer for. I can get that replaced for you. No problem. Get you a warranty issue taken care of. No problem. Because my competition didn’t want to call back or show up for a warranty appointment. Will Hanke (24:14) Great. Joe, how about you? Joe Kendall (24:15) lost them. So one of the things that that one of my salespeople came to me with and were like, you know, how do I, know, bigger is better. Bigger means that they have more buying power. And I said, you know how to handle that, that question right there? How can I compete against 23rd day blinds or how can I compete against those guys? If you’re if you’re a small and company you say, know what, it’s really, people probably wonder how can I compete against those big guys? And be honest, say, yeah, they probably buy the blinds for less than I do. But last time I checked, we don’t have a regional sales manager or regional divisional manager. We don’t have a regional vice president. We don’t have an office in Chicago. We don’t have this. We don’t have that. You know, I pay the same kind of bills they pay, but mine have a lot less zeros. So if you want someone that really knows the industry. Ryan Gilberts (24:56) and Joe Kendall (25:07) and can really save you money, work with someone small and local. We’re here for you. And once you learn that objection, to get over that objection, the sky’s the limit. And that’s something that really, I always tell our people, remind them that there’s only six of us in the company. We don’t take retreats to Orlando to talk about how we’re going to sell this year. We might go out to Ryan Gilberts (25:16) you . Joe Kendall (25:32) Alpac Steakhouse, but you know, that’s about it. But anyway, but that’s something that I think that people should get over when they’re a smaller company. When you’re a one person operation, is just remind them you don’t have regional vice presidents and director of sales and all that crud. So that’s the biggest thing I think is because that’s what they’re selling against you as. they’re so small. They’re so small, they can’t compete against us. That’s what they’re saying. So say the exact opposite. Will Hanke (25:59) Yeah, I like that. When it comes to challenges, how about technology? How does that work in your world? Joe Kendall (26:05) Brian, lead boomerang, right buddy? Ryan Gilberts (26:07) Well I’m not really into the lead boomerang to be honest with you. I have used it. It’s just another Another thing I kind of I do solo tech and QuickBooks so You know, I still have the lead boomerang and it still transfers over into the solo tech I’m just not in lead boomerang daily Joe Kendall (26:19) Okay. Ryan Gilberts (26:28) I I’m a two man operation. I’m very mobile. I don’t have a storefront. I do have a office, but I’m not out at every day. So I’m out on the streets. If I’m in the office, I’m not really making money to be honest with you. Joe Kendall (26:41) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So for me, the lead boomerang is everything. I can look at it. I can see calls that come in. With the lead boomerang customer tracking, I spend about three to five minutes in the morning updating our opportunity board. Today so far, we’ve gotten five phone calls. They’re all new leads. Will Hanke (26:43) How about you, Joe? Joe Kendall (27:01) with using lead boomerang and letting customers know, hey, the product’s been ordered. Hey, the product’s been shipped. Hey, it’s here. We have totally sliced and diced the incoming phone calls. Where’s my blind dad? was wondering when I was one. I was just curious. Those days are over for us. And I also have a second job running a furniture store. So, and believe it or not, we actually, and this might sound terrible, but it’s the way it is. We found out when we got lead boomerang up and running with the opportunity page, we let our receptionist go. Just didn’t need her. Just didn’t need her. She was answering five calls a day saying, hey Joe, this customer wants to get an estimate. So I can handle five calls a day, you know, but we were getting 20 to 40 and so forth. You know, it’s process to build it and to understand it, how it goes. And I’m a firm believer that I’m probably using 30 to 40 % of what lead boomerang can do. Whereas with my iPhone, I’m probably using 5 % or with my laptop, I’m using 5%. So I really feel like I’m getting a lot out of lead boomerang. And I have a State of the Union call with Will here on Friday, and we’re going to Ryan Gilberts (28:04) you Joe Kendall (28:18) spend some time and to make sure I’m doing everything I should be doing with lead boomerang to get the most out of it. You know, we’re on a roll. We’re getting three to five, five star a week. And, you know, all of our business is not what I like. It’s what Google likes. Right, right. Well, does Google like this? Let’s do it. So that’s the biggest thing. Our automated responses, people will have conversations with our automated responses. God bless them. Ryan Gilberts (28:20) . Will Hanke (28:33) That’s right. Ryan Gilberts (28:38) . Joe Kendall (28:43) You know, thanks so much. Glad to hear from you, Joe. Looking forward to seeing you soon. You know, and you’re like, okay. But anyway, no, that’s the big thing. And I think the CRM is everything nowadays. That’s how the younger people work. They want text messages. They don’t want to wait. They don’t like phone calls, you know. But so that’s the big thing. Good CRM. Ryan Gilberts (28:47) . Will Hanke (28:46) You Ryan Gilberts (28:55) and Will Hanke (29:00) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ryan will need to get you some, some training and get you in there doing more of the stuff. Be happy to do that with you. Ryan Gilberts (29:06) That’s what I was just going to Joe Kendall (29:07) Brian, close are you to big sky? Or skiing out there? Ryan Gilberts (29:09) About three and a half hours three and a half hours away. Joe Kendall (29:12) All right, well, maybe we’ll work, we’ll figure something out. I’ll come out there and ski and teach you how to use lead boomerang. Will Hanke (29:19) There you go. Ryan Gilberts (29:20) you know where Yellowstone was filmed, Joe Kendall (29:22) What’s that, sir? Ryan Gilberts (29:23) You know where Yellowstone was filmed? Joe Kendall (29:24) couldn’t hear ya. Yeah! Ryan Gilberts (29:25) Yeah, I’m like 20 minutes from that. Yeah. Joe Kendall (29:27) That’s you. how cool is that? How cool is that? That’s awesome. That’s awesome. So. Will Hanke (29:33) Very cool. All right, well one last question for you guys. And then I wanna get some last thoughts from you. But I’m interested in what do you see as kind of the future of window treatment industry, where we’re going, and what can other business owners do to prepare for what’s coming up in Q2 and for the rest of the year? Joe Kendall (29:53) Wow. Will Hanke (29:53) You Joe Kendall (29:53) Ryan, go ahead and look at your crystal ball first. Ryan Gilberts (29:54) Well, Will Hanke (29:56) Hahaha Ryan Gilberts (29:56) yeah, I think, well, not I think, but I’m fairly certain that automation is going to just be the whole way of the future. You you’re going to get rid of the pulley strings. You’re going to get the automation systems, the motorization systems that are going to be standard. You’re not going to have the continuous cord loops, the beaded chains. You’re going to just have motorization. And with that, you’re going to have different price point motorizations. Hopefully they get rid of the wand systems, but I think that’s just going to be kind of the way of the future. Shoot even films, window films that are going to be, you know, the transparent to the tint. That’s going to be a little bit more standardized, I think, especially with the way the Supreme Court’s Yep. Joe Kendall (30:33) Partner with somebody. Partner with somebody as soon as you can. Partner with a company. We have one, Delmarva Tent, and they give me leads and I give them leads. But yeah, definitely. Sorry for jumping in, Brian, but yeah, I love that tent story. Ryan Gilberts (30:47) Go ahead Joe, let’s see what you got. Will Hanke (30:48) That’s great, Joe, how about you and your crystal ball? Joe Kendall (30:50) I’m right with Ryan. Anytime you can, I think we’re going to start getting phone calls, a lot more phone calls about this phone call. I’m building a house and I want to have automation in my house and I haven’t broke ground. What do I need to do? So I would become familiar with the low voltage talk, try to get on any type of, whether it’s Alta Hunter, Norman, any type of low voltage talk, be familiar with that because you’re to get that call. And you don’t want to go, I think you guys got to run speaker wire. So I just want to have a little bit of backstory, being able to talk about it, being able to talk about the distribution box and things like that. But I think that is what’s coming. And I think if to be prepared, one of the biggest home builders in my area is sells window coverings to the customer. And they’re a Hunter dealer and a Norman dealer. And all it’s going to take is for these home builders who are so cookie cutter, they’re so buy the book, they don’t want any type of change, someone’s going to tell them, you know, we can make an extra $40,000 a house if we offer somebody a home, a smart home with pre-wired low voltage circuits to these windows. So I would just be ahead of that. and be prepared for that. But I think I couldn’t agree with Ryan more that automation is going to be everything I would, I think in 20 years, you might even manual appliance might be gone in 20 years. Very good chance. So prepare for that and be ahead of that and have that knowledge in your back pocket when it happens. Ryan Gilberts (32:11) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Will Hanke (32:22) Love it, some great in-plate. Ryan Gilberts (32:22) Definitely future-proofing your house. Joe Kendall (32:23) Mm-hmm. Yep. Will Hanke (32:24) That’s great. And I would assume that kind of stuff is increasing the value of your home nowadays, right, for people that are shopping for homes. Joe Kendall (32:31) Right. Right, right, right. Will Hanke (32:32) That’s great. Well, guys, thank you so much. Before we finish up here, just wanted to get any last thoughts for window treatment business owners that are out there struggling right now and want to obviously build their business over the rest of the year. What kind of advice would you give to them? We’ll start with Joe. Joe Kendall (32:50) No one’s gonna feel sorry for you. It’s a tough world out there. You’re not going to be given anything. Become an expert. anytime you talk to people, there’s two great words to use, is unique and expert. People want unique products delivered by an expert. So those two words, Will Hanke (32:55) So you eat what you kill. Joe Kendall (33:08) are what I try to use all the time. You know, I don’t say salesman. I say expert. I don’t say, yeah, we have blinds. We have some very unique offerings. Separate yourself. But that’s, know, hey, listen, it’s not a cash cow. It’s work. I can only imagine how far Ryan drives every day. But he’s working it and he’s doing it. But that would be my tip. Unique and expert are two words I would use as much as possible. Will Hanke (33:39) love that. Ryan is somebody who’s been in the industry for about what three years now. There’s people in your shoes or maybe even a little bit behind there. What advice would you have for them? Ryan Gilberts (33:51) Well, technically I’m fortunate that I have worked in the industry for almost 15 years. but I’ve owned the business on my own business for now three. biggest thing that I, I knew from when I went from here to here was honestly switching to my current website provider, throwing that one out there for you. Well, Will Hanke (34:00) Yeah. Ryan Gilberts (34:11) and Will Hanke (34:12) Thanks. Ryan Gilberts (34:13) Honestly, the marketing, making sure you look professional as a business and as a person. Anyone can slap a logo on the side of your van, but you need to know your product. Go out there, learn from your vendor reps. Get to know your vendor reps, learn from them. Start getting systems in place and getting your business a lot more efficient. So that way you’re not spending four hours a day in your office grouping orders together because you want to save that $25 on a minimum. Don’t jump over a dollar to save a dime. Will Hanke (34:45) Yeah. I love that. for sure, love that. Thank you guys so much for some incredible conversation today, I do appreciate it. Joe and Ryan, you guys have been amazing. As a listener, if you’ve been inspired to take your window treatment business to the next level, start applying some of these strategies right away. These guys have been doing this for quite a while, they know what works, take their advice and apply, I think is the best piece here. Apply what you’re doing. If you love this episode, send it to a friend and don’t forget to click the subscribe button. We would love to make sure that you can hear all of our future podcasts as well. Ryan, Joe, thank you guys so much for taking some time out of your day to be with us. Appreciate it guys. Thank you. We’ll catch you on the next one. Joe Kendall (35:28) OK. Ryan Gilberts (35:28) Thanks, Will. Have good one. Transcript Will Hanke (00:00) All right, everyone. Welcome to another episode of marketing panes, the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers or business owners about their strengths, about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. Today is our Q2 preview. We’re going to talk about what happened in Q1. We’re going to talk about what we think is coming up in Q2. I’ve got two guests with some great insights that I’m excited to interview. First of all, we got Joe Kendall, president of Made in the Shades Eastern Shore. Joe owns Kendall Furniture, a Made in the Shade dealership. He went from 58th place to fifth place in the Made in the Shade franchise, then second place, and in 2002, 2024 became the number one volume dealer in North America. Joe, thanks for being on the show today. Ryan Gilberts (00:31) Okay. Joe Kendall (00:40) you You’re very welcome. We’re happy to be here. Will Hanke (00:57) Thank you. We’ve also got Ryan Gilbert’s Ryan owns Shaded Window Coverings in Montana. Shaded Shaded Window Covering started in May 2022 after Ryan was working for some other businesses in the window covering industry over the last 10 years. He wanted to. He first started in the industry as a part time installer, then moved to lead installer position and eventually a hybrid role of installer and salesperson. Ryan Gilberts (00:58) you Will Hanke (01:27) Now almost three years later, there’s really no turning back. He’s just started his largest sixth figure project, 1900 shades for an apartment building under construction. Ryan, thank you for joining as well. Ryan Gilberts (01:39) Thanks, Will. Will Hanke (01:40) 1900 so you’re going be a little bit busy I guess for at least the next couple days right? Ryan Gilberts (01:44) Fortunately, it’s being built out in stages. Will Hanke (01:46) Awesome. Yeah, that’s great. Congrats on that. So I want to start by talking about some different industry trends. What emerging trends are you guys seeing in the industry right now? And how can other window treatment dealers kind of align with these trends to stay competitive? Joe Kendall (02:02) Ryan, think what you’re doing is, Ryan and I spoke a little bit beforehand, Will, and we really love that the exterior market is exploding. you need to make sure you’re talking to your clients because they don’t know all the cool things you know as far as that goes. I was talking to Ryan and we were discussing how you might go into a customer wants to get some roller shades up on four windows that are consecutive. Ryan Gilberts (02:12) Yeah. Joe Kendall (02:28) And you leave the house with an exterior roller shade motorized. their beautiful in-tort, their trim on the inside is left alone. It’s gorgeous. And they can have that true builder look, but yet get the results they need when they need them. I think the exterior, and people, great too. I think they expect to pay more for exterior blinds. And it’s with the warranties that some of these manufacturers are offering, it’s really a great way to go. Ryan Gilberts (02:55) Yeah, I got to agree on that too, but. Will Hanke (02:57) Yeah, I like that. Ryan, are you seeing something similar? Ryan Gilberts (02:59) So yeah, I mean I like the exterior products They’re definitely a little bit more sleek, but they’re definitely a touch more expensive than some people anticipate But the cool thing is there’s a vast majority of dealers or I should say vendors that are starting to manufacture those and get into the market so I Don’t think price points all gonna be all that Will Hanke (03:21) I know when we talked with some of our guests on the Q1 podcast that we had talked about, they mentioned the luxury buyers are really popping up more. Are you guys seeing that as well? Ryan Gilberts (03:32) Absolutely. Joe Kendall (03:33) yeah. Yeah. Our average ticket for the last six months is up about 15%. Will Hanke (03:38) Okay. Joe Kendall (03:38) You know, we were in the $4,400 average ticket. We’re now in that a hair over 5,000, 5,200 area, which I think is just people are buying nicer stuff. Will Hanke (03:48) Yeah, I think that’s a great point. when I started in this industry as the marketing guy, about seven years ago, we niche down specifically just to the window treatment and awning industry. The average job was 2,500, 3,000. So obviously part of that is, I guess you could say inflation, but also I think it’s just people are buying better quality stuff. Ryan Gilberts (04:03) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Joe Kendall (04:11) And, you know, there was always… Go ahead, Ryan, I’m sorry. Ryan Gilberts (04:11) Absolutely. no, I was just saying absolutely. But I would probably say a year ago, I kind of crossed over that bridge with Hunter Douglas and became one of their dealers. But I will say that going into that bridge and are going into that realm of the market and being able to offer those very high quality products, my ticket sales have definitely increased tremendously. And I’m also getting a lot of those larger ticket deals and showing them. The cool stuff, I guess you can say. Joe Kendall (04:40) You know, and I train, we have two full-time salespeople. I still train them and remind them of the famous, you know, Bloomingdale’s three bread maker stories about a good, better, best versus just a good or a best. And, you know, I encourage my people that when they’re presenting a product, and let’s say they’re talking about a Roman shade or they’re talking about a roller shade, and you pop out a Hunter Douglas vignette, you know, I’m a big believer in telling the client straight up, hey, this is a more expensive product. There’s a decent chance, you the average salesperson might think, God, they’re going to be bummed. But really they go, cool, this is what I want. And I always like to tell people, because obviously if a roller shade was $49, we’d sell everybody we talked to. But not being afraid of the more expensive products and sharing with your customer, hey look. Ryan Gilberts (05:18) Okay. . Joe Kendall (05:32) This is a more expensive product, but let me tell you why and what you get. And then it’s like, well, this makes perfect sense. selling higher up, it takes work. But if you do it right, it really, really can pay off. Ryan Gilberts (05:37) Okay. I gotta agree with you on that. Definitely education with your customers or clients is I think gonna make you stand above the crowd and definitely show your worth and then also get those larger ticket items. Joe Kendall (05:56) Definitely, definitely. Will Hanke (05:57) I love the idea of upselling, right? You already got them on the hook. Now if you can walk out with 10 % more than you thought you’d get or something like that, it’s a fantastic growth strategy for your business. Joe Kendall (06:08) You know, I’m going to share a quick story if I could, Will. When I first started selling 30 years, 35 years ago, I was selling roofs and my closing ratio was excellent, but my gross profit was just barely average. So the owner says, Joe, I want you to go out to dinner tonight with Zeke, who’s our highest profit guy. makes a thousand dollars or more than you a week. He’s going to teach you how to sell higher. And I was like, my God, this is going to change everything. We go out to happy hour drinking, long story short, we get to midnight, we’re at 7-Eleven, we’ve had some cocktails. And I said, Zeke, we’re gonna be in deep trouble, you didn’t train me tonight. And we ran up the owner’s credit card. So Zeke can barely stand up and he asked the cashier, says, for a napkin and a pen. And I said, sure. So Zeke goes, here you go, on a 20 square roof, what’s your opening price? I said, well, I usually start around 4,200. Zeke burps up some beer and says, okay, try it again, but this time instead of writing a four down, write a five. And the moral of story is just open up a little higher and you’ll get more, it’ll make a higher sale. It’s that simple. Just start a little higher. And I always remind people you can’t go up, but you can go down. So that’s one of my favorite training stories. Will Hanke (07:17) I love that you were able to write the night off on the. Joe Kendall (07:19) You So. Will Hanke (07:20) Draining Cool, that’s great. I love to hear that so Quick disclaimer both of you guys are clients of window treatment marketing pros So you guys are obviously, you know doing the SEO stuff doing the paid ads. I wanted to talk a little bit more about professional connections Local networking those kinds of things. What are you guys doing in that area to help generate leads and maybe even longer-term relationships? Joe Kendall (07:49) Go ahead, Ryan. Ryan Gilberts (07:50) To generate leads, mean, I’m talking to the sphere of people that I hang out with. I’m pretty fortunate with the area in Montana that I’m at. We have a lot more cattle than we do people. So the people that I’m dealing with are going to be a lot of business owners. The 1900 shade project that I got was due to one of my good buddies that is doing all the dirt work for this project. He just simply sent a text and said, who does all your shades? call this guy. So it’s, really the sphere of people that I’m dealing with, but also kind of going back to what Joe was just saying about getting those higher ticket items, dealing with those larger, more expensive products. It’s actually the word of mouth of those people. You know, I’m, I’m giving them good, good solid products, great service, and they’re just talking to more people. As far as the marketing aspect goes that you can actually pinpoint where your dollars are going. I still do local marketing. I don’t know if you guys have Valpac over on the East Coast or what have you, but Valpac is one of them. I am in with a lot of magazines for top realtors and also in magazines that just strictly market the top 1 % of homeowners in the area. And I also do TV commercials. Joe Kendall (09:02) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it’s the old saying that, you know, half of my advertising works. I just don’t know which half, but I know this plug for Will, Will’s works. So without a doubt, one of the things I’m going to we’re talking to people in the industry. I simply for sake of a better term, pay off real estate agents that are sitting in a new neighborhood. Will Hanke (09:02) Okay, Joe. Ryan Gilberts (09:12) Yep. Joe Kendall (09:23) It’s just what I do. There’s a neighborhood and I went and talked to them and gave them. There’s a great restaurant company in town that has about 10 awesome restaurants. One gift card. I gave them each a $500 gift card. people might think that’s a lot, but all I got to do is get one purchase and I’m even. And I love giving that gift so big. that now they feel guilty. Like they have to get me referrals now. You know, they’re the ones that are like, my God. So I love real estate agents. Word of mouth is the big thing. I love taking every service call that we should charge a hundred bucks for and not charging them and telling the people we should charge you. But if you get me a referral, you meet somebody who’s talking about window coverings, just make sure you pass my name along. Ryan Gilberts (09:56) Mm-hmm. Joe Kendall (10:06) Since you saved them 200 bucks, now they feel the guilt where they, gosh, we gotta find Joe a referral. So I love doing that. One thing too, this is gonna be the, well, the basketball going on. You’ve heard like, you know, the five star lock of the week, the team you have to bet on. Here’s my five star lock of the week, Will. Change how you respond to five star reviews. Don’t say thank you. Don’t say, well, obviously say thank you. but use that review time, the response, to sell. Hey, we really love Tom the installer, he was great. Hey, that’s awesome. Tom, like all of our installers, is completely certified and has been with us for X amount of time. Tom’s been through four certifications in XYZ and loves his job. Thank you for mentioning him. So when people are reading that, they go, shit, these guys got good people. Or, wow, I love the shutters. And don’t forget, all of our products have a lifetime warranty. So if you have a problem, please call us. Put in your responses to your Google reviews. Selling words, you know, hey, I’m so happy we could get that installed within your quick timeline. Oh, they do stuff quick. So people are reading their reviews, but they’re also going to review, read your responses. So that’s my 50 star pointer. Will Hanke (10:56) You Joe Kendall (11:18) I guess of this podcast is to change how you do your reviews and will do not use AI to do it for you. Be personal that you can be more personal. And again, though, you can you can sell. You got a chance because people are going to read reviews, so make them read stuff that you want to tell them. That’s all. Will Hanke (11:35) Yeah, I love that it’s a missed opportunity if you just say thank you. Ryan Gilberts (11:36) Let me touch base on that. Let me touch base on that review. I love it. I’m a very personable person when it comes to my reviews. give, you know, hey, Cheryl, thank you so much for the great review. It’s been extraordinary working with you, getting your automated roller shades or automated honeycomb shades up for you. But it’s also and I only have one of these a four star review. It’s how you respond to those. I mean, so I’ve been in business for a short time. I, 2022 customer gave me a four star review because I, well, it freezes here and my spackle was frozen that morning to fill in the old screw holes of his vertical blind. That’s why I got a four star review. I responded back with, let me, let me come and earn that fifth star. He never, he never changed his review, but he’s bought four more times since then. Joe Kendall (12:03) Yeah. Right. Okay. Ryan Gilberts (12:31) stuff. That fourth star haunts me. Will Hanke (12:33) That’s awesome. I love that. That’s great. And I love the idea of being personal about it, you know, and replying to each of those individually. AI can get a little dry on it. Obviously also an opportunity to use certain keywords and locations. You know, we really enjoyed installing the window treatments in your Chesterfield home, you know, something like that where it doesn’t violate any privacy type stuff, but Joe Kendall (12:34) Yeah. Yeah. You Will Hanke (12:59) you do get the name of the place in there as well. Joe Kendall (13:02) Mention in the neighborhood, Will. Good point, good point. Will Hanke (13:04) Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. So I want to talk a little bit about expansion. So when it comes to reaching out in your particular area, you know, have a little bit of an advantage because you’re located in that area. And especially Ryan, I’m assuming in Montana, cities are maybe a little bit further apart than they are for Joe. Right. So so how do you handle expansion or driving a certain distance tell us about that. Ryan Gilberts (13:31) Yeah, I I probably cover a two hour span from my location around. So I try to group all my appointments. Sometimes it works out, but I mean, hey, I’ll go over to this part of the neck of the woods and we’ll get a few appointments done that day. We’ll go over to next part of the neck of the woods. So we’ll do that, but I mean, we’re getting a lot more. You can go into the bigger cities and I call them the cities, but you know, it’ll be a little bit more. solid people like you can walk through neighborhoods and things like that still. It’s not, you know, you’re not going on a 40 acre ranch or a 3000 acre ranch and every every house that you go to. A lot of the communities that we’re in, they are going to be in your, would say eight, 900,000 to a million and a half dollar homes when they’re in neighborhoods like that. So Will Hanke (14:15) Yeah. Ryan Gilberts (14:27) They are typically a solid appointment. Will Hanke (14:29) I like that. I like how you stack them together, know, do a couple in one area. Yeah, especially when you’re traveling that far. Joe Kendall (14:32) Yeah, you have to, Ryan Gilberts (14:32) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. For sure. Will Hanke (14:38) Yeah, Joe, what about you? Obviously, things are a little bit more compact in your area. I know you just added another location. Tell us about that. Joe Kendall (14:42) Yep, yep. So we added a second location. The way our town is set up, our area is set up is we’re up against the Atlantic Ocean. So we do half circles. We don’t do full circles, you know? But there’s a really wealthy part, and I opened up on the street to that wealthy neighborhood area. Will Hanke (14:56) you Joe Kendall (15:04) with the idea of getting some stop in traffic and things like that. And we’re also showing higher end goods there. We’re not showing faux blinds in that location. So far so good. We’re making the so-called nut. But it’s like anything. It’s repetition, repetition, customers seeing and hearing about your name and so forth. One nice thing I love about the Maiden the Shade is it’s purple and gray with a tint of yellow. So purple signs kind of stand out a little bit. But it’s a classic, you know. A lot of people who are, nothing wrong with this, but who are trunk slammers and they want to go to that first store. You know, I was mentoring a Made in the Shade dealer and I was like, what hours are you going to be open before you expand? And they said, we’re going to go a nine to two and be closed on Saturday and Sunday. And my response was either going to be a retailer or you’re not going to be a retailer. And retailers are open seven days a week. and depending on your town, till seven o’clock at night. And they’re like, oh, we don’t want to do all that. And I was like, well, then you don’t want to have a store. You don’t want to become a retailer. So I don’t know, if that was more what you were thinking about, like when to expand and so forth. For us, I looked at it like an advertising spend. It’s going to cost me $5,000 a month to have that store. with the people and everything and I figured well hell $5,000 a month a billboard is in my neighborhood is $1,500 a month so it’s like buying two or three billboards but I’ll have a physical person I’ll be on the main drag so there’s a lot to think about before expansion obviously but Will Hanke (16:40) Sure. Yeah, but there’s the nice thing about the window treatment industry is the average job is fairly high as we mentioned earlier. So it doesn’t take a lot to make that money back. Joe Kendall (16:50) No, no, no. Will Hanke (16:51) That’s great. Yeah. So I want to talk to you guys a little bit about partnerships, collaborations. Is there anything that you guys are doing that would be beneficial to the listeners around similar to what you said, Joe, with the real estate people in anything else like that? Joe Kendall (17:08) If there’s new construction in your area, get after those agents that are sitting in the house. That’s your bread and butter. Hey, hi Will, it’s nice to meet you. How long you been with NVR Homes? Hey, where’s your place? Do you have plantation shutters? Would you like to get plantation shutters? And I always say, hey, know, my manufacturer gives me some leeway on some sample products. I love to put some sample products in 10 of your windows. We’ve done that before for people and put plantation shutters in their house. That was in the neighborhood that we got 23 jobs from. It’s just the best $3,000 I ever spent. So I’m a big believer in the real estate agents. I’m a big believer in having someone like Will do your Google buy. I respond, Will will ask me a question, and I’ll say, Will, you’re the pro, buddy. It’s working so far. Don’t ask me. You got that covered. But that’s my one thing I would say is that’s where it’s at. a $100 gift card or a $50 gift card doesn’t do anything. Go to $500. That’s my tip of the day, second tip of the day. Will Hanke (18:10) You Ryan Gilberts (18:11) What? I’ll go off that. There’s an organization here in town called MOR for Kids, so Missoula Organization of Realtors, and it’s a nonprofit for kids. And I am the only window covering person in that organization. And I reach 800 realtors. There’s 800 realtors in the Missoula account. Joe Kendall (18:26) Oof. Ryan Gilberts (18:28) It’s just insane. But I’m the one window covering guy and I’m there competing in all their nonprofit organizations and it’s fun for me. We do a charity kickball tournament. We do a charity golf tournament and we do a winter gala. I get the most donations in the kickball tournament. My team typically always wins in the golf tournament. And last year, I spent the most at the charity and I got the most awards. So that’s kind of how I shotgun blast my name out there. Will Hanke (18:55) Fantastic. Joe Kendall (18:58) Yep, I love it. Will Hanke (18:59) That’s really cool. love that collaboration. Ryan Gilberts (18:59) They all call me Shady Ryan for a reason. Joe Kendall (19:01) I love it. like that. Shady Ryan. I like that. Will Hanke (19:04) That’s great. And at the end of the day, you’re supporting something, right? So there’s that whole PR side of things too, where you can get a little bit of that out there. Ryan Gilberts (19:12) Exactly. Joe Kendall (19:12) That’s, and Ryan’s right on with, what’s your Realtor Association name, Ryan? Ryan Gilberts (19:18) M-O-R. Joe Kendall (19:18) The moon. OK. So we have the Coastal Association of Realtors. Here you go. Every town you’re in has an association of realtors and you can be what’s called a whatever kind of member you are, Ryan. It’s not accessory member, but it has a name. That means you’re not a realtor. Thank you very much, Ryan. Yeah, you’re an affiliate member. you get and with that, Ryan, you also get right emails, phone numbers for everybody, every realtor in town. Ryan Gilberts (19:19) Mozilla organization of realtors. an affiliate. Yep, exactly. Joe Kendall (19:43) So lots of marketing you can do with that. Will Hanke (19:45) Wow, that’s awesome. So cool, we talked to… Go ahead. Ryan Gilberts (19:46) and also building industry associations. Joe Kendall (19:49) Yes, yes, yes. Ryan, I’m gonna get off this phone, off this podcast here, and I’m gonna figure out how I can get a commercial job like that. My biggest commercial job so far is 17 roller shades at a restaurant. But that kind of stuff gets me excited. That gets me wound up. Ryan Gilberts (20:04) Yeah, yeah, we got three more coming in. Will Hanke (20:08) I saw you. Joe Kendall (20:09) Ugh. Will Hanke (20:09) That’s great. Joe, saw your brain ticking back there when he said it. Joe Kendall (20:12) my god, it’s crazy. You can actually see my brain right here. There it is. Will Hanke (20:16) Yeah, so cool. talked about kind of collaborations and partnerships. Let’s switch and talk about the customer. What do you guys do to help build those relationships when it comes to getting into the home or even before you get into the home? Joe Kendall (20:29) So I’ll go first this time, OK. So the like to send. Ryan Gilberts (20:30) I’ll start. just kidding, Joe. You got it. No, no, go ahead. Will Hanke (20:32) Ha! Joe Kendall (20:38) a video or two. If it’s a shutter job, we like to send a video or two. Like to send a link to our five star reviews beforehand. And then we really try, we do try to give a gift. Right now we’re giving away, it costs us about 40 bucks, but it’s a custom made cardboard box. I might have shown this to you well. It’s a custom made cardboard box, purple and yellow paper, and it has four rocks glasses in it, and they’re each engraved. a palm tree, a setting sun. I can’t remember the other two. But given that as a gift and really, you you’re not going to get anything unless you ask for it. And when we give that gift, we like to say, hey, look, anybody ever talks about us, you know? And the thing is, is the kind of cool thing is anytime they get those glasses out and they have guests over, hopefully all come up in conversation. So that’s what we’re really trying to, you know, I’ve come up with the idea of A $10 Starbucks card, if they lose that, who cares? But something that has value in their eyes, that’s what we’re going after for a gift when we ask those customers for the review and for the referrals. Will Hanke (21:39) That’s great. Love that. Ryan, how about you? Ryan Gilberts (21:41) So yeah, so as far as like gifts go, do like, if you know of anyone that needs a window coverings, I’ll do, I give a little gift card or not a gift card, but a little postcard. And there’s three options, like a, like a $50 gift card to Amazon or a hundred dollar gift card to a steak house that I did all their shades in. or I have another a hundred dollar gift card to another buddy that owns a tap house. So, kind of something like that. It’s, it’s supporting my customers already and also trying to get more customers out there. But before I get into a house, the biggest thing that I’ve come to find out, because I’ll tell you guys, cause you see me on a screen. I’m six foot five and 285 pounds. I’m not a small person. So, I always send an appointment reminder to people with this ugly mug and saying, Hey, I’m going to be at your doorstep. It takes a lot of hesitation off of people. Will Hanke (22:34) You Joe Kendall (22:37) Do you have like a height thing? Like you’re in a 7-Eleven doorway showing them how tall you are. Ryan Gilberts (22:42) You know I should, but we don’t need that. Will Hanke (22:45) Yeah. Joe Kendall (22:45) goodness, I love it, I love it. Will Hanke (22:45) That’s I love the tips that you guys have shared. think those are great. Ryan, you mentioned the Amazon card. If somebody came to my house selling something and they mentioned that, I guarantee my wife would be all over that. I mean, she’s just ordering stuff every day off of there. So it’s interesting how far that can go for not a big spend. All right. So one other thing I wanted to ask about challenges. Ryan Gilberts (22:58) Right. Yep. Will Hanke (23:09) and maybe some solutions. What kind of challenges are you guys seeing out there when you’re trying to build those connections, grow your network, and for other people listening, maybe what are some ways that they could overcome those? Ryan Gilberts (23:21) So I can go because I’m the youngest probably in the industry on this podcast right now as far as being in business. My biggest thing is obviously competing. Obviously competing against the bigger names. Fortunately, I don’t have a made in the shade in my local area, but I do have that other cheap fish company that hasn’t I wouldn’t say hasn’t stepped up in the realm of quality and customer service. But I always get with the realtors or with this other person like, hey, we had such and such company already do our shades. We already had this company do them. I already know this guy. So I mean, that’s my biggest hesitation. But then I come in and say, hey, you know what? That’s actually a shade that we also are a dealer for. I can get that replaced for you. No problem. Get you a warranty issue taken care of. No problem. Because my competition didn’t want to call back or show up for a warranty appointment. Will Hanke (24:14) Great. Joe, how about you? Joe Kendall (24:15) lost them. So one of the things that that one of my salespeople came to me with and were like, you know, how do I, know, bigger is better. Bigger means that they have more buying power. And I said, you know how to handle that, that question right there? How can I compete against 23rd day blinds or how can I compete against those guys? If you’re if you’re a small and company you say, know what, it’s really, people probably wonder how can I compete against those big guys? And be honest, say, yeah, they probably buy the blinds for less than I do. But last time I checked, we don’t have a regional sales manager or regional divisional manager. We don’t have a regional vice president. We don’t have an office in Chicago. We don’t have this. We don’t have that. You know, I pay the same kind of bills they pay, but mine have a lot less zeros. So if you want someone that really knows the industry. Ryan Gilberts (24:56) and Joe Kendall (25:07) and can really save you money, work with someone small and local. We’re here for you. And once you learn that objection, to get over that objection, the sky’s the limit. And that’s something that really, I always tell our people, remind them that there’s only six of us in the company. We don’t take retreats to Orlando to talk about how we’re going to sell this year. We might go out to Ryan Gilberts (25:16) you . Joe Kendall (25:32) Alpac Steakhouse, but you know, that’s about it. But anyway, but that’s something that I think that people should get over when they’re a smaller company. When you’re a one person operation, is just remind them you don’t have regional vice presidents and director of sales and all that crud. So that’s the biggest thing I think is because that’s what they’re selling against you as. they’re so small. They’re so small, they can’t compete against us. That’s what they’re saying. So say the exact opposite. Will Hanke (25:59) Yeah, I like that. When it comes to challenges, how about technology? How does that work in your world? Joe Kendall (26:05) Brian, lead boomerang, right buddy? Ryan Gilberts (26:07) Well I’m not really into the lead boomerang to be honest with you. I have used it. It’s just another Another thing I kind of I do solo tech and QuickBooks so You know, I still have the lead boomerang and it still transfers over into the solo tech I’m just not in lead boomerang daily Joe Kendall (26:19) Okay. Ryan Gilberts (26:28) I I’m a two man operation. I’m very mobile. I don’t have a storefront. I do have a office, but I’m not out at every day. So I’m out on the streets. If I’m in the office, I’m not really making money to be honest with you. Joe Kendall (26:41) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So for me, the lead boomerang is everything. I can look at it. I can see calls that come in. With the lead boomerang customer tracking, I spend about three to five minutes in the morning updating our opportunity board. Today so far, we’ve gotten five phone calls. They’re all new leads. Will Hanke (26:43) How about you, Joe? Joe Kendall (27:01) with using lead boomerang and letting customers know, hey, the product’s been ordered. Hey, the product’s been shipped. Hey, it’s here. We have totally sliced and diced the incoming phone calls. Where’s my blind dad? was wondering when I was one. I was just curious. Those days are over for us. And I also have a second job running a furniture store. So, and believe it or not, we actually, and this might sound terrible, but it’s the way it is. We found out when we got lead boomerang up and running with the opportunity page, we let our receptionist go. Just didn’t need her. Just didn’t need her. She was answering five calls a day saying, hey Joe, this customer wants to get an estimate. So I can handle five calls a day, you know, but we were getting 20 to 40 and so forth. You know, it’s process to build it and to understand it, how it goes. And I’m a firm believer that I’m probably using 30 to 40 % of what lead boomerang can do. Whereas with my iPhone, I’m probably using 5 % or with my laptop, I’m using 5%. So I really feel like I’m getting a lot out of lead boomerang. And I have a State of the Union call with Will here on Friday, and we’re going to Ryan Gilberts (28:04) you Joe Kendall (28:18) spend some time and to make sure I’m doing everything I should be doing with lead boomerang to get the most out of it. You know, we’re on a roll. We’re getting three to five, five star a week. And, you know, all of our business is not what I like. It’s what Google likes. Right, right. Well, does Google like this? Let’s do it. So that’s the biggest thing. Our automated responses, people will have conversations with our automated responses. God bless them. Ryan Gilberts (28:20) . Will Hanke (28:33) That’s right. Ryan Gilberts (28:38) . Joe Kendall (28:43) You know, thanks so much. Glad to hear from you, Joe. Looking forward to seeing you soon. You know, and you’re like, okay. But anyway, no, that’s the big thing. And I think the CRM is everything nowadays. That’s how the younger people work. They want text messages. They don’t want to wait. They don’t like phone calls, you know. But so that’s the big thing. Good CRM. Ryan Gilberts (28:47) . Will Hanke (28:46) You Ryan Gilberts (28:55) and Will Hanke (29:00) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ryan will need to get you some, some training and get you in there doing more of the stuff. Be happy to do that with you. Ryan Gilberts (29:06) That’s what I was just going to Joe Kendall (29:07) Brian, close are you to big sky? Or skiing out there? Ryan Gilberts (29:09) About three and a half hours three and a half hours away. Joe Kendall (29:12) All right, well, maybe we’ll work, we’ll figure something out. I’ll come out there and ski and teach you how to use lead boomerang. Will Hanke (29:19) There you go. Ryan Gilberts (29:20) you know where Yellowstone was filmed, Joe Kendall (29:22) What’s that, sir? Ryan Gilberts (29:23) You know where Yellowstone was filmed? Joe Kendall (29:24) couldn’t hear ya. Yeah! Ryan Gilberts (29:25) Yeah, I’m like 20 minutes from that. Yeah. Joe Kendall (29:27) That’s you. how cool is that? How cool is that? That’s awesome. That’s awesome. So. Will Hanke (29:33) Very cool. All right, well one last question for you guys. And then I wanna get some last thoughts from you. But I’m interested in what do you see as kind of the future of window treatment industry, where we’re going, and what can other business owners do to prepare for what’s coming up in Q2 and for the rest of the year? Joe Kendall (29:53) Wow. Will Hanke (29:53) You Joe Kendall (29:53) Ryan, go ahead and look at your crystal ball first. Ryan Gilberts (29:54) Well, Will Hanke (29:56) Hahaha Ryan Gilberts (29:56) yeah, I think, well, not I think, but I’m fairly certain that automation is going to just be the whole way of the future. You you’re going to get rid of the pulley strings. You’re going to get the automation systems, the motorization systems that are going to be standard. You’re not going to have the continuous cord loops, the beaded chains. You’re going to just have motorization. And with that, you’re going to have different price point motorizations. Hopefully they get rid of the wand systems, but I think that’s just going to be kind of the way of the future. Shoot even films, window films that are going to be, you know, the transparent to the tint. That’s going to be a little bit more standardized, I think, especially with the way the Supreme Court’s Yep. Joe Kendall (30:33) Partner with somebody. Partner with somebody as soon as you can. Partner with a company. We have one, Delmarva Tent, and they give me leads and I give them leads. But yeah, definitely. Sorry for jumping in, Brian, but yeah, I love that tent story. Ryan Gilberts (30:47) Go ahead Joe, let’s see what you got. Will Hanke (30:48) That’s great, Joe, how about you and your crystal ball? Joe Kendall (30:50) I’m right with Ryan. Anytime you can, I think we’re going to start getting phone calls, a lot more phone calls about this phone call. I’m building a house and I want to have automation in my house and I haven’t broke ground. What do I need to do? So I would become familiar with the low voltage talk, try to get on any type of, whether it’s Alta Hunter, Norman, any type of low voltage talk, be familiar with that because you’re to get that call. And you don’t want to go, I think you guys got to run speaker wire. So I just want to have a little bit of backstory, being able to talk about it, being able to talk about the distribution box and things like that. But I think that is what’s coming. And I think if to be prepared, one of the biggest home builders in my area is sells window coverings to the customer. And they’re a Hunter dealer and a Norman dealer. And all it’s going to take is for these home builders who are so cookie cutter, they’re so buy the book, they don’t want any type of change, someone’s going to tell them, you know, we can make an extra $40,000 a house if we offer somebody a home, a smart home with pre-wired low voltage circuits to these windows. So I would just be ahead of that. and be prepared for that. But I think I couldn’t agree with Ryan more that automation is going to be everything I would, I think in 20 years, you might even manual appliance might be gone in 20 years. Very good chance. So prepare for that and be ahead of that and have that knowledge in your back pocket when it happens. Ryan Gilberts (32:11) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Will Hanke (32:22) Love it, some great in-plate. Ryan Gilberts (32:22) Definitely future-proofing your house. Joe Kendall (32:23) Mm-hmm. Yep. Will Hanke (32:24) That’s great. And I would assume that kind of stuff is increasing the value of your home nowadays, right, for people that are shopping for homes. Joe Kendall (32:31) Right. Right, right, right. Will Hanke (32:32) That’s great. Well, guys, thank you so much. Before we finish up here, just wanted to get any last thoughts for window treatment business owners that are out there struggling right now and want to obviously build their business over the rest of the year. What kind of advice would you give to them? We’ll start with Joe. Joe Kendall (32:50) No one’s gonna feel sorry for you. It’s a tough world out there. You’re not going to be given anything. Become an expert. anytime you talk to people, there’s two great words to use, is unique and expert. People want unique products delivered by an expert. So those two words, Will Hanke (32:55) So you eat what you kill. Joe Kendall (33:08) are what I try to use all the time. You know, I don’t say salesman. I say expert. I don’t say, yeah, we have blinds. We have some very unique offerings. Separate yourself. But that’s, know, hey, listen, it’s not a cash cow. It’s work. I can only imagine how far Ryan drives every day. But he’s working it and he’s doing it. But that would be my tip. Unique and expert are two words I would use as much as possible. Will Hanke (33:39) love that. Ryan is somebody who’s been in the industry for about what three years now. There’s people in your shoes or maybe even a little bit behind there. What advice would you have for them? Ryan Gilberts (33:51) Well, technically I’m fortunate that I have worked in the industry for almost 15 years. but I’ve owned the business on my own business for now three. biggest thing that I, I knew from when I went from here to here was honestly switching to my current website provider, throwing that one out there for you. Well, Will Hanke (34:00) Yeah. Ryan Gilberts (34:11) and Will Hanke (34:12) Thanks. Ryan Gilberts (34:13) Honestly, the marketing, making sure you look professional as a business and as a person. Anyone can slap a logo on the side of your van, but you need to know your product. Go out there, learn from your vendor reps. Get to know your vendor reps, learn from them. Start getting systems in place and getting your business a lot more efficient. So that way you’re not spending four hours a day in your office grouping orders together because you want to save that $25 on a minimum. Don’t jump over a dollar to save a dime. Will Hanke (34:45) Yeah. I love that. for sure, love that. Thank you guys so much for some incredible conversation today, I do appreciate it. Joe and Ryan, you guys have been amazing. As a listener, if you’ve been inspired to take your window treatment business to the next level, start applying some of these strategies right away. These guys have been doing this for quite a while, they know what works, take their advice and apply, I think is the best piece here. Apply what you’re doing. If you love this episode, send it to a friend and don’t forget to click the subscribe button. We would love to make sure that you can hear all of our future podcasts as well. Ryan, Joe, thank you guys so much for taking some time out of your day to be with us. Appreciate it guys. Thank you. We’ll catch you on the next one. Joe Kendall (35:28) OK. Ryan Gilberts (35:28) Thanks, Will. Have good one.

Summary In this episode of Marketing Panes, window treatment experts Josh Tycksen (Best Blinds and Sexy Shutters, Arizona) and Vince Sturkie (Best Blinds and Shutters, Carolinas) shared their experiences from 2024 and insights for 2025. The discussion covered market trends, technological adaptations, and strategic business approaches in the window treatment industry. Guests Profile: Vince Sturkie Started Best Blinds in 2001 after spending years in the mortgage banking industry. In 2001 I started and built Columbia SC’s largest window treatment store. After selling the Blind business I went back to mortgage banking by starting Hilton Head Mortgage in Hilton Head Island SC. But, I found myself right back in the window fashions industry when I started Best Blinds and Shutters in Greenville SC.in 2019. I now employ 2 of my 3 children along with my wife Sandra where we believe our greatest asset is that we are a local family owned business. Josh Tycksen Owner of Best Blinds and Sexy ShuttersWith a background in professional ballroom dance, Josh Tycksen brings precision, artistry, and attention to detail to every window treatment project, making Best Blinds and Shutters a trusted name in Arizona home improvement. Other Notes/Links: To learn more about Vince Sturkie visit: Best Blinds and Shutters Josh Tycksen visit: Best Blinds and Sexy Shutters pssst…. want to be a guest on the show? Listen to other episodes Video https://youtu.be/OlS7zhOGN5w Click here to display Transcript Transcript All right, hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Marketing Panes the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers and business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. Today, we are doing our Q4 review slash Q1 outlook for 2025 and excited to have two of the best window treatment dealers. in the US on today and that’s a little bit of a play on words here. So we’ve got Josh Tixon, owner of Best Blinds and Sexy Shudders. Josh has a background in professional ballroom dancing. Josh brings precision, artistry and attention to detail to every window treatment project, making Best Blinds and Shudders a trusted name in the Arizona home improvement. And then we’ve got Vince Sturkey, owner of Best Blinds and Shudders. Vince Sturkey owns Best Blinds and Shudders with a commitment to quality and trust, providing custom blind shades and shutters to homes across upstate South Carolina and western North Carolina. Guys, thanks so much for being on today. Vince Sturkie (01:13)Thanks Will. Will Hanke (01:15)Really appreciate you guys jumping on. So we’re going to get into a little bit of the Q4 and Q1 outlook kind of stuff. first, I have a personal question for each of you. Josh, I’m very intrigued by your journey from professional ballroom dancing to window treatments. How has that background and precision and artistry influenced your approach to the business? Josh Tycksen (01:40)It’s interesting. I’ve never really thought about it that way. I just grew up doing it because it was a good hobby. It a good way to meet chicks. My mom said I had to be in either some form of dance or art or music and I liked movement and I like music. I’m a very energetic person. I look like I’m always on about 10 Dr. Peppers, but I don’t really drink a lot of caffeine actually. I just have a lot of natural energy, but the benefits coming from it though are I had to work with a lot of different people in a very intimate Will Hanke (01:46)you Josh Tycksen (02:09)setting, know, where like partnering with somebody, your hands are right on each other, on each other’s back or whatever, and you’re very close and these boundaries are very different. And in learning how to work with, you know, so many different partners and people in those settings, I think it set me up for a lot more success working with the different kinds of people that I encounter on a daily basis in our appointments. And I can read a lot of body language. I don’t even think about it. I just can see it and other people might. not notice those same things, you know, yeah. And, know, and it just, yeah, a lot of attention to detail, cause that’s all you do. You practice some things and he says, Hey, that’s wrong. Do it again. Hey, that’s wrong. Do it again. It’s just the art of perfection. You’re just chasing over and over. And, the presentation at the end is something with the wow factor you’re really going for, where if you’re putting on a show or a performance that people want to be excited about it, and that’s what gets people come into your shows. And so I tend to have a same. flair for our things where I like to show up at the end of installs if I’m not already part of it. And I like to get them so jacked about the products that we’re putting up by the time they’re done that they really do appreciate things that they might not otherwise know about them and kind of go through a little bit of care and, you know, just tutorial with them where we get them all excited. Cause then by the end they’re, you know, they’re like, wow, wow. I had no idea. And, I think that takes them over the top where we can then ask them for those reviews and stuff, you know, really kind of kind of. rolls a cycle that just helps you grow and helps you stay busy. Will Hanke (03:38)Yeah, that’s a great strategy. I love the energy. I think that’s big piece, especially showing up at the end of the install and kind of hyping them up, right? That’s super cool. Very good. Josh Tycksen (03:51)Yeah, I 100 % agree. Especially, mean, like our favorite thing to sell is automation because people want automation. A lot of people ask for it not having any idea what it costs. And they just are thinking about the wow factor part of it. So if you can get them over the price and have something that you know they can count on and love and then really go through and set it up for them, they get really excited about it. So it’s fun. Will Hanke (04:13)Yeah. Very cool. So Vince, question for you too. We were talking before we started today about Josh’s business being called Sexy Shudders. And your comment was around the North Carolina, South Carolina area being a little more conservative. How does that play into your sales approach? Vince Sturkie (04:34)well you definitely got to you know check the room when you walk in every home here because you you know you could you know you don’t know so many people that are here came from somewhere else so you know when we’re here you know we we’re you know we’re country a lot of us are country boys from south carolina you know it’s more rural than it is urban and suburban here but you know we we’re we’re you know we walk in we see things you know you’re like okay what do i what hat do i need to wear today when i’m dealing with these folks but you know people move here for a reason and you know generally they have something in common with the people that are already here and they want to be here with us and so we just kinda just it’s just business as usual really for every single home you know we just went through the election that was kind of political you know you had to you know be a little bit more balanced and careful because you never know what home you’re in But at the end of the day, people are people. And they want to be helped with what they need. And they want you to treat them the way they want to be treated. And if you got all those bases covered, none of that’s going to matter. But it’s made for South Carolina to be a great place to do business right now. Will Hanke (05:46)Nice. Yeah. Like Josh said, you kind of got to read the room, right? And see what’s going on when you walk in. Vince Sturkie (05:54)Yes, absolutely. My installers can’t wear their Trump 24 hats on the job, right? I’m just like, keep it in the truck. But you know, we got a couple of different people here, so they’re all wearing different hats. But I just try to tell them that we’re here to love everybody, serve everybody, and everybody’s getting the same treatment with us. Will Hanke (06:16)Yeah, yeah, that’s great. Thank you. So let’s jump in and talk about Q4, how it’s been. And I think the big thing here is what is the biggest surprising shift that you guys have seen in customer preferences for window treatments? Josh Tycksen (06:35)Benz, you want to go first, you’re welcome to. Vince Sturkie (06:36)Yeah, I think for us here in South Carolina, Will, you know, we’re also getting a lot more requests for motorization than we’ve ever gotten. So we’re hearing motorization more so. Because we have a lot of people here in the South that move from the North, you’ve got a lot of people still asking for Honeycomb Shades, which was real big in the Northeast. You know, whereas in the South, we didn’t do a lot of that product. So as people are migrating to us, we’re seeing a shift toward more honeycombs than ever. Whereas back in 01 when I started, honeycombs were real big, now it’s roller shades, right? So, you know, we’re still seeing people come in asking for roller shades. I think the biggest shift now today in our industry from when I first got in it in 01 is the money flow. We’re having… Back then the average ticket was less than two grand. Now we’re having people spend ten, fifteen thousand dollars like it’s two thousand dollars. And this is cash money, this isn’t borrowed money. So we’re seeing a shift toward higher tickets, we’re seeing a shift toward nicer products, and we’re seeing a shift in people being more easily letting go of the money. Which is really helpful in our business, especially when the margins start tightening. Will Hanke (08:03)Right. Yeah, Josh. I saw you nodding your head around the the motorization stuff. I know you actually mentioned The automation piece a little earlier. Is that the same thing you’re seeing? Josh Tycksen (08:15)Yeah, I mean, I’m trying to always open up our portfolio of what we’ll offer so that we’re current with the latest trends and what people are looking for. Our target market, like defining that really helped a lot. You know, after I got some business coaching a few years back, I want people in a new home. I want it to be their second or their third home. I’m not looking for a 25 to 30 year old in their first home where they could barely afford it. And they’re scraping by on what they can’t afford and instead getting somebody who’s 40 or older and they’ve got a, you $750,000 home or more. And they’ve had an experience like this before. either put up their own window treatments or had a bad experience with somebody else, you know, or they may, once in a while, they may have not still put those in. But most of the time when that’s our target market, it’s a lot easier to, you know, work with people in what, I mean, price matters. I just don’t think it’s the most important thing. And that’s really hard when you’re going into quotes to get people off of that area and to really make sure that you can present the value. and how the experience is going to go when they work with you, how your timeline is going to be kept, you know, and what they can expect from start to finish and after finish if there’s any problems going through those details, you know, as far as coming back to your question, being more specific to Q4, it’s so helpful to look at previous years to have that information, to see how many quotes we had from September into October into November into December, how many leads came in in those times, what those things were for and Even being able to compare it to an election year and see the dip right before the election and then nine closed deals the day after Trump was elected. You know, okay, we’re good. got money. Okay, we’re good. You know, and the phone went off the hook and we closed nine deals the next day. You know, similar to what he said to, know, our average ticket going up, keeping track of that. mean, there’s our market here has a lot of new builds and I just kind of have moved my family to be closer to those because Will Hanke (09:57)you Josh Tycksen (10:14)I see people in new builds, they’re going to get it anyway. It’s a lot harder to quote somebody who thinks they want something because they saw an advertisement and they already have blinds in their house. So it’s not really a need. In a need situation, it’s a lot easier to the deal and you can present options. Yeah, Q4 isn’t always a weird one in December. Right after the 15th up until the 31st, it’s just kind of weird. So just, up through the first 10 days of January, 15 days of January at least, and our trends have stayed the exact same. So it really helps me to be a lot more comfortable. Because I know you’ve seen me freak out on the marketing side where I’m saying, where’s my money going? How much would be allocated here and there? What are you focusing on? Why are we getting calls for this? It helps you calm down a little bit. Will Hanke (10:39)Yeah. Josh Tycksen (10:59)if you can look at those trends and see that they’re almost the exact same, you know, there’s very little variance. Will Hanke (11:02)Right. Yeah, yeah, you mentioned the new builds. What percentage of your business typically is that? And has that increased over last couple of years? Josh Tycksen (11:14)Since I turned my focus to that, big time. I’d say for interior window treatments, I’d say it’s 90%. But we get, now that we’ve started doing patio shades where people get the patio shades or awnings, that’s not fair to say that that’s all with new builds. In fact, the patio shade demographic on the new builds is way lower because those people are already strapped for cash. They already just spent $100,000, $150,000 on the backyard and they already bought all this other stuff. Will Hanke (11:18)Okay. Josh Tycksen (11:43)We have a series that we try to do with them where we connect to those guys a year later. They’ve moved in now, they’ve gone through a lot of that first year of living in a home and now they’re ready for phase two. Right around March, April, there’s a really good opportunity to capitalize on that when they’re getting their tax returns, to send out good information and follow up. You do it in an effort to offer your help and assistance. If they have any questions about the products they got, if they’re running into any issues, if they feel like they need any additional chargers for their shades. You know, or if they want to get the home automation kit now since they chose not to, but then also offering, did you realize, you know, that maybe you’re short on other products? Did you want to cover some of those windows? didn’t. Do you need solar screens to block the sun out? Do you want patio shades to make an indoor outdoor room? So the new build percentage for interior treatment, that is very high percentage. Will Hanke (12:34)Yeah. Vince, are you guys seeing something similar in the Carolinas? Vince Sturkie (12:38)Absolutely. It’s huge. And having been through the mortgage crisis of 08 where people stopped building homes and stopped buying homes, I mean it’s strong enough business increase that you’d lose sleep over it if you thought about what happens if it stops because it would be noticeable. Yeah, we would miss that piece of the business because it’s like Josh said, they have to buy window treatments. They’re not going to live in a $7,000- $800,000 home. with paper shades for long. So at the end of the day, they’re buyers. All they need to do is like you, like your stuff, like your price, and they’re ready to write you a check. So we count on that part of the business, and we count on you. That’s where our digital marketing guru comes in, because we count on you to help keep our name in front of those people. They’re the hardest group to find on the internet, because realtors are looking for new movers. And so when you’re trying to compete with them for the new movers, you know, it gets a little dicey because there’s a lot of money being spent trying to get that person’s attention because everybody wants the guy buying or building the house. Will Hanke (13:46)Sure. Yeah. Josh Tycksen (13:48)I found a lot of the biggest success we have in that is the neighborhood Facebook groups. If you find a new neighborhood and there’s construction going up and you get a customer and you can get in, you can get them to not just give you a review, but post something on the neighborhood Facebook group. It is the biggest return on investment you’ll ever get. matter what you offer them, you get somebody, a troll, a little Facebook troll in their neighborhood group who wants to be social with everybody there to give you some good, some good cloud in there. We’ve done whole streets of homes on both sides. Vince Sturkie (14:18)That’s exactly right. We probably got 20 in one neighborhood and it’s all because one gal is on Facebook promoting us all the time and it just goes like one after the other at that point because nothing’s better than the neighbor deal. Will Hanke (14:35)Yeah, similar approach for Nextdoor. We rolled out Nextdoor ads three or four months ago now. Josh, I think you started doing some of that. Josh Tycksen (14:44)return on those is fantastic. Way better than get from Google, at least I think so. It’s kind of hard for me to see which is which, but I just wanted to change the focus of our next door ads because most of it was coming back with patio shades and those are very labor heavy install. So growth in a different direction to be preferred, but we’ll take it really good from next door too. think that’s a very untapped market. Will Hanke (15:12)It really is. So they just rolled out their new ad platform maybe three or four months ago. We started rolling ours out shortly after that, or the ability to do the ads on there. And 50 % of our clients have already called back and said, let’s do more budget there. So I definitely think it’s something worth paying attention to. like you guys say, it’s very similar to the Facebook groups for the individual subdivisions or parts of town, that kind of stuff. So another question, you guys made it through 2024, congrats. This year has been a very high peak, low valley kind of thing. It seems like you’re either on fire, Josh nine leads in one day and then probably nothing for a week or so. You know, it’s really these ups and downs are crazy. Did you guys experience that same kind of thing? And if so, what was kind of one of the biggest lessons that you learned this year? Vince Sturkie (16:13)For me, know, Will, I switched over, you know, I came on board with you a year ago. You know, so my first quarter of the year was the transition quarter where, you know, you dip before you rip. And so we were in panic mode at the first part of the year. But then as time went on, it just got better and better and better and better. you know, my reps are coming in from Graber and Alta and Norman and Hunter. They’re saying we’re 20 % down. Will Hanke (16:13)Vince, let’s start with Vince Sturkie (16:43)You should be 20 % down. That’s kind of the industry across the board. We’re not closing out this year 20 % lower than last year. We’re going to be right on par to close out the same year with probably about 5 or 6 % more in profit off of the same gross sales. I think we’re actually, this is our best year since I got back at it five years ago. So it’s encouraging when you hear that sales are down and you’re not. And you know that but that’s been the word on the street, but I think I Think all things all things pointed in the right direction I think 25s could be the best year that I’ve seen since I’ve back in it five years ago Unless something dramatically shifts or a black swan event in the economy. I think it’s going forward. I think it’s going to be fantastic I’m thankful for this year. I you know, I’m thankful that You know, I had the confidence to switch marketing companies a year ago and get involved with somebody that I thought could keep me going. I think my switch is part of what has helped me not to decline this year when I know that some of the guys around me are off, have laid off a few people. The bigger houses, especially the 20 member crews, are down a little bit. The reps are telling me this. You know, I’m pretty thankful where we are. I attribute a lot of that to, you know, to Winnitreatment Marketing Pros. And I’m pretty optimistic for 25. Will Hanke (18:20)Thank you for all the kind words. appreciate that. That’s really nice. Josh, what do you think over the last year? Josh Tycksen (18:26)Yeah, very similar. mean, 13 days left in the month, 14 if you count the 31st or Christmas, but we were on a blitz last year. Alta, custom brands group offers, they have their little sales benchmark you got to get to for their Blue Diamond Elite Club, the top of the top. And I was like $65,000 away in cost of good sales. And I just said, you know what? I think I could do it. I normally would invest maybe $3,000 a month in ad spend. And we probably did 9, 9,400 that month instead, because I just said, I’m taking every single freaking thing I can get. I was almost giving stuff away so I could hit that benchmark because I saw it didn’t cost me as much. I’d get a $25,000 credit from CVG. I’d win an extra trip for my installer and his wife. You know, there were other benefits to it on top of the fact of just staying busy in a month that’s slow. So it was kind of annoying and it was during Christmas to get a lot that many calls and whatnot, but Coming year over year and comparing them, we’re probably very similar to what Vince said where we’re going to finish around somewhere between five to 7 % higher in sales than we did a year ago. So we’ve already passed it. We’re five to 7 % ahead of it today. So I don’t have my everything floored right now in marketing where I’m adding onto it. the next two weeks, like I did a year ago either. And our profit percentage is almost the same. It’s less than a tenth of a percent of different for gross profit on those deals and stuff. So it’s been a lot more consistent year. It’s been a lot easier this year than it was a year ago. Those first few years making a lot of adjustments and getting used to the way things flow. I would also go ahead and give you mad props. The window treatment marketing process has been a huge benefit to us in that area. There’s the struggles as a new business owner to feeling that Spend where my first two years didn’t spend a dime. I bought four hundred four thousand postcards From like vista print and I would just go put them up in the new build neighborhoods If I wasn’t working around appointments I’d be putting them up and getting those out and plastering houses with those postcards and that was a great return For what I’d spend is the whole all those postcards cost me 400 bucks. I still have some That was the only money I spent and then somebody convinced me that I should work with you guys and have you do my website two years ago Will Hanke (20:44)you Josh Tycksen (20:51)And I was like, I don’t know, was like a thousand bucks or 1500 a month or something. I just could not stomach that. But I was like, I’ll give it a shot. Three to six months, you know, cause you guys told me you can’t, you cannot make your decision here in the first 90 days. You’ve got to wait 90 days, if not at least six months. said, okay, it kept getting better. So then I was like, great, what if we put money into it? It kept getting better. And then it’s just figuring out how to even that out and realizing that if I track my numbers, there’s trends, whether I pay for marketing or not. There’s trends of when it goes up and when it goes down. There’s holidays and school starting and stopping. There’s elections and all these other weird things. So yeah, like he said, black swan events and stuff, something totally out of the ordinary could dramatically impact how 2025 goes. But I think I’m getting a little bit more business mature in being able to handle the ups and downs and just telling my people, don’t worry about it. You’re still paid this week. Just go get some projects done at home. it’s, but when I call you, I’m going to need you. because it’s going to get crazy, you know, coming up in the next few weeks or based on the last four years, April’s going to be freaking nuts, you know, so. I remember what the question was anymore. Will Hanke (21:59)That was really the biggest valuable lesson that you got this year. Josh Tycksen (22:04)yeah, just having those numbers, having a history to track off of has really helped me to relax and sleep a little better and be a lot more cool. Or you’ll see my emails coming in far less than they used to with how much I was freaking out about everything and every dollar spent and realizing that some things take time to kind of see how they’re going to work. And there will be some dips and some peaks, but there’s not one answer for everything. Will Hanke (22:32)Yeah, yeah. Thank you again for the kind comments. So outside of marketing decision that you made, what was the other best decision you made over the course of the last year that really helped your business grow? Josh? Josh Tycksen (22:50)Opening up our portfolio. We would maybe do one patio shade a month. I wouldn’t focus on it. I put marketing money into it this year and that’s really helped us even out. Even if it’s just keeping my people busy because those installs are very labor heavy. It takes two people, two hours if everything goes perfect to put one of those up. That’s one shade, you know, for four or 5,000 bucks, if you’re running around a 50 % margin. And it’s just really labor heavy compared to like, if I send my guy yesterday, he was on a $12,000 job to put up 33 rollers and did it in four hours. know, but bringing that on and diversifying and adding that gave us a whole market we already had where we could reach out to all of our customers. And we just did it personally instead of with email campaign campaigns. I just kind of went through and I could already check people off the list who I didn’t have that in their backyard or their space. They didn’t have room for it. Or I could just tell us like, that’s a long shot, you know, but adding that having another thing that we could call them and sell when we’ve already built a good rapport with them. That was a good one for us this year. Our repeat customers this year, and this is our fourth year in business, but our repeat customers this year was a big percentage. wasn’t like 2%, 5%. It was like 16 % of our customers this year are repeats. That was insane. And I’m trying to figure a lot of them, it was into new homes, but a lot of them, was adding more, you know? And then, I don’t know, it’s not really repeat, but referrals still from those same loyal customers has been a good percentage of that base too. Will Hanke (24:30)Yeah. Yeah, it’s interesting you mentioned the exterior stuff. I’ve said this on some other videos. I think two years ago, we might have had 5 % of our clients that offered exterior, 5 % of our window treatment clients that offered exterior. And now that’s probably 32, 33 % of our clients are offering exterior. Vince, are you guys doing any exterior stuff or thinking about it? Vince Sturkie (24:55)we are thinking about it we you know i refer that out i got a big company a twenty member team right next door to me almost i’m friends with the owner i send him all the bahama shutters i send him all the exterior track system type shades for porches and stuff they do all that stuff and they’re good at it they’re pretty they’re very pricey so i have to warn the customers that you’re you’re they’re not friendly vince with the money they’re gonna you’re gonna see tickets like you’ve never seen before when they get there but you know, I have to kind of preset it, but, I refer that out now. We’re going to add some product next year. We’re just not sure exactly which one to grab hold to and learn. you know, but we do, we do believe we can grow with product adding product next year that we’re not doing now. I think the biggest thing this past year though, will that’s helped us is I decided at the first of the year to own Google to post open every Saturday from nine to 12, not all day. because what I did in a quick Google search is realized in my market nobody is open on Saturday. And so I would come down to the office, I was already coming to the office, hanging around the warehouse, cleaning my truck, doing something anyway. So what I’m doing is I’m spending a few hours at the office on Saturday mornings. I’m catching leads by people who go on Google and they say, hey, we need to schedule an appointment to get some shutters for our new home. They’re only off on Saturday. They take care of those types of things on Saturday. Being open on Saturday has been a competitive advantage that I think probably all total has gotten me 50 or 60 new leads this past year that, you know, I believe at a 70, 80 % close ratio on an in-home appointment, think it really made a big difference for us. And then the second thing that helped me this year is the Norman rep. told me if I’m standing in front of a sliding glass door to pitch the Smart Drape over something lesser expensive, like a vertical. And I started pitching that thing and nobody knows what it is. They’ve never seen it. Norman’s the most invisible company out there. And I started pitching the Smart Drape, sold one yesterday. It’s a product that if anybody’s ever bought a Luminette, you can triple margin that product. You can You can get good money on that type of product. So there’s little things like that that I just stay disciplined to do that I’ve seen. You know, I’m probably the worst up seller in the world. I’m a down seller probably more than an up seller. It’s just the way I’m built. But people resonate toward my crazy nature of sales where I try to talk people into spending less because it’s better. It’s just not my style to upsell. So I try to stay middle of the road. Will Hanke (27:32)You Vince Sturkie (27:50)Those are the little things I did this year that I think made a difference. Will Hanke (27:54)That’s really interesting. The three or four hours on a Saturday has really profited you, I guess, at the end of the day just by doing something you were all kind of already doing anyway. Vince Sturkie (28:03)Yeah, I was gonna be here either way. Will Hanke (28:05)Yeah, I love that. That’s fantastic. So thank you guys for sharing that. I wanted to talk real quick about regional differences. So Vince, you’re in the Carolinas and you did mention earlier that you’re doing some specific products. Is there anything that you see more than you have in the past or things that are surprisingly similar to other parts of the country? Vince Sturkie (28:32)For us here, most of these new builds that we’re working on, which is big percentage of our business, those buyers are not local buyers. Most of those are coming from somewhere else because Greenville’s in the top 25 places to move to according to the National Association of Realtors. And those people that are coming are coming for the warmer temperatures and lower cost of living. A lot of them have white hair. They’re more like me than they are like Josh. And you know… They’re coming and they’re wanting things that they bought in the past which are plantation shutters. That’s a biggie for an older mature seasoned buyer. He’s probably had shutters before. He’s gonna wanna buy those. We’re seeing more requests for folks in the shutters than we do having folks call for shades. Now if we get somebody moving up out of Florida, moving halfway back to the northeast, They might be talking shades, but a lot of them are also going to be talking shutters because they’re coming out of a heavy shutter market in South Florida. you know, shutters have been big for us this year. Probably more growth in shutters than anything. Shades, I thought, would be our biggest, you know, it just seems like shutters seems to still be ruling, you know, unless we can just turn them. I don’t like taking away. If somebody calls for shutters, I want to stay on the course and give them what they called for. Because sometimes you can try to do a takeaway for an easier install and quicker turnaround on that client. But at the end of the day, I like to leave people with where their heart sits. And if they say shutters, it’s the greatest product I’ve ever sold, so I say love it. Will Hanke (30:12)Right. Yeah, totally makes sense. Josh, I know you’re in Arizona in a pretty hot part of the country. Is there anything that’s on fire in your area? Josh Tycksen (30:23)There’s some seasonal trends I’ve noticed. Solar screens, there are these outside products, they’re not a high profit margin thing for us, but I found a company who goes out, measures them, builds them, brings them out and installs them. And so I can just sell, I mean, I’ve almost got my assistant completely taking over that division because she can do quotes and everything with just pictures and not have to go to their house at all. And so she feels incentivized. Again, adding new products. Norman has the Smart Drape, like he said, and you know, when they flew us up there to VIP and, you know, treat us all special and takes over, you know, will the simple with Norman takes you over to their little shop there. That’s not like a, it feels like a storefront, but it’s actually for them to bring in reps and really train you on their products. And when they did that and showed us the, you know, the, the Smart Drape, that’s been a good ad for us. it’s not cranking yet in terms of, just. where we go to for covering our sliding doors and stuff yet, but it’s another option that we get to provide now instead of just roller shades or honeycomb and nobody really likes to do vertical blinds. Same with Norman has this special blackout where they have sidetracks and it’s called 360 blackout. And that is insane. Where we’ll get calls to black out a master bedroom or a baby’s bedroom or just different places in a home. You know, we just say add X to any window if you want complete blackout. And sometimes people go nuts for that. So it’s, kind of a differentiator that you can have where other people say blackout. So when people say, Hey, we need blackout. And I have to stop them. Hey, hold on. What do you mean blackout? Cause there’s room darkening is kind of the industry term that’s being referred to now where there’s blackout where you’re thinking there’s no light in the room. What are you asking about? And sometimes, no, we’re good. Just a darker room. And some people know I can’t have any light. Will Hanke (32:03)You Josh Tycksen (32:18)where it’s good that you clarified or they might have thought that a regular blackout shade would actually black out their room. Will Hanke (32:25)Interesting. So speaking of regional different things. I wanted to ask you guys about your local networks I think somebody mentioned realtors earlier on. How are you guys building out those local referral networks? Josh will go to you Josh Tycksen (32:41)I’m a member of BNI, Business Networking International. I just got back from that meeting. It’s every Tuesday morning at eight o’clock for a couple hours. There’s 50 other people in there that are specific to their own trades that they do. so I have 50 other people out there who are committed to, you know, making sure I get referred if they know anybody else looking for window treatments. You know, and we’re all in that ballpark for each other, you know, that I’ve got, I know somebody who does this or does that. And so I’ve got a referral list as well that I modified my quote where when they, I print it out, I’ll show up at a home, I’ll do my stuff. And then I just say, if I have 10 or 15 minutes, I can print this for you right now. And they always say, great, that’d be awesome. So I just do it real quick on the computer. And when I print it, it flips the page over now on the backside says, what else are you looking for? Here’s some trusted people we’ve worked with that do flooring, roofing, landscaping, other home services trades. And it was mostly a benefit to them. when we started doing that, it’s circled around now we’ve been doing it long enough where they’re always pushing for us now because, you know, if we have 45 leads or 35 closed deals in a month, that I would bet 20 to 25 % of them are flipping that over and calling some of those people. Will Hanke (33:58)That’s great. I think anytime you can be a resource for people, you still look good in their eyes, even if you just referred them to somebody that can do it better. You still got a little check mark in their mind, right? So that’s always helpful. Vince, how about you? Vince Sturkie (34:10)Mm-hmm. know B &I is great. I actually founded a B &I years ago when I was in mortgage banking. I have preached B &I for years. There’s five chapters in my town. There’s no window treatment slots available or I’d be in one. They stay pretty booked up with a window treatment consultant in them. So it’s kind of got me out of it for the moment. But I will wind up back in a B &I when my turn comes up. For me, I use networking, if I’m in a neighborhood and there’s a model home at the entrance, I’m not leaving turning out of that neighborhood without stopping and walking in and telling that attendant of that model home, hey, I’m working in a house in here. If anyone buying a hall mask, we’d love to help them with their window treatments. I just try to use the boots on the ground stuff that’s easy, hitting those model homes, hitting those real estate agents when they meet you at the house to unlock the door to let you in to measure. for the out of town client, know, try to use that as a chance to introduce myself in what we do. And it is making a difference. Well, I get referrals from builders and realtors I’ve never even heard of. These people need to refer people and they’ll refer people they don’t even know if they don’t know someone and they’re asked for a referral. I’ve done it. So, you know, Will Hanke (35:27)You Vince Sturkie (35:40)It definitely makes a difference to get your card in front of those people and try to keep it there because they will refer people. They need to because people don’t know people. Will Hanke (35:51)Yeah, referral traffic obviously always a little bit warmer as well, right? A little easier to close. So that definitely helps having those relationships and building those relationships as time goes on. Vince Sturkie (36:03)right. Will Hanke (36:05)So I wanted to ask quick about technology. So I know that technology is always changing from the smart home side, the motorization side, but even from just the running a business side. So how are you guys leveraging different digital tools in your networking and in your client relationships? Josh Tycksen (36:25)Vince, you’re probably going to take the cake on this. I used to run restaurants. had several restaurants I was in charge of down here in Arizona. That’s why I moved here. And I got so sick of every employee that was under me. All their problems started to become my problems that I got really sick of big, big crews and big staffs and lots of people. So when I switched to this, I was myself and I loved it for so long because I had total control of my schedule. And then it got, you know, naturally got kind of worn out. I brought on some help to at least do the installs. And I’ve gone through where I’ve brought on a little more, where I’ve trimmed down to a little bit less, but you sound like you’ve got a full on store and several people and a couple of different trucks doing installs and know, three, four different people doing your sales where I systems are a hundred percent mandatory for you to function right without all those hiccups. You know, I’m still very caveman on a lot of that stuff. Cause I find is I’ve This is where I need the most work. There’s so much opportunity for me here, but I get annoyed with the delay. Most of those systems, if I bring in some sort of a ordering portal system that maybe makes it simpler to work between all of my team and the customer and the payment systems and whatever in the schedule, it adds two weeks onto our install time, it seems like, because those orders just take forever to submit or whatever. I haven’t found solutions that I’ve been patient with. never get it that i think too much into productive word sometimes get that done on sitting here Vince Sturkie (37:55)Well, I get it because you can probably do more with your cell phone than I can with a $50,000 processor sitting in front of me. I am a little more old school. So the technology that people are able to, things they can do on their phones, I can’t even do them. But the one thing that has helped me is we have our quoting software, so that gets us into the digital agent quoting. We have Blanco and we have Will with Lead Boomerang, is really, to me, I know that we’re capturing more leads because of Lead Boomerang than we were when we were simply answering the phone or getting a web form submitted, which was what we were before the days of Winda Treatment Marketing Pro. So I think technology-wise there, I think those things have been huge for us. Josh Tycksen (38:25)Which software do you guys use? OK. Vince Sturkie (38:55)I have a lot of room to grow in this. I don’t trust things. I mean, I test my phone number almost daily. I go online and I pull the numbers we’re using for tracking. I’m calling them because I’m scared they’re not working, especially on the days I don’t get any calls. I’m like, okay, what’s wrong with the phone number? And sometimes, believe it not, I found the numbers not working because something’s unplugged. But at the end of the day, I would say, I confess, I probably have a very weak link in technology, in what I could be doing versus what I am doing. I’m always, I mean, I talk to people who call here wanting to sell us things to help us, just because I’m hopeful they might have a good idea that I need. When all they really want to do is take window treatment marketing pros away and start doing it for me. I’m like, no. Will will tell you, it takes me years to trust somebody. I talked to Will Hank you five years ago and it took me four to get on board. So I roll a little too slow some days. Will Hanke (39:55)you Yeah. Josh Tycksen (40:03)I mean, there’s still, yeah, so it sounds like we’re feeling the same there. I’ve worked with my blind co, they’re just, I don’t remember what it was that frustrated me. And I think it was just the delays if you submit through the portal and waiting. And I tell my customers 95 % of our orders this year, this is an accurate number, 95 % of our orders this year have been installed in 30 days or less. We’re averaging 23 days right now from sale to install. And that’s really a powerful tool or a really powerful sales, you know. point to make that people appreciate when they’re moving into a new home and they’re want you installing the day after they close or they just moved in and now they’re feeling vulnerable or whatever. But even if it’s as simple as just having very organized photos on your phones, you can flip open and go to whatever type of product they’re looking for to be able to show them an example real quick. This is a stupid example. I use it often, but in the iPhone, they have a thing called predictive text. I think if you go to general and then keyboard, They have these text replacement phrases. I have thousands where if I type, you know, there’s a built-in one, it’s OMW becomes on my way. Well, I’ve built it in now where I have videos. If you want to know about an automated shade, I can go AR1, AR2, AR3, whatever I type in pulls up a different YouTube link and sends it to them so they can see a video demo of that. And so when somebody says, what’s, we don’t really know what’s trending in homes right now. We’re kind of open to it. I have one trend one and it sends them a video of what we’re seeing lately, you know, and then there’s, I mean, I don’t even know how to go off on that, that I have thousands of those terms in my phone and I’m used to it where GM becomes good morning or I have, you know, I mean, a whole, the things you type over and over, you get sick of typing to people, your address, your email, your whatever, all of them are three digit short codes for me that somehow I have memorized and I just, I don’t want to type that anymore. As soon as I ever feel that I don’t want to type that anymore. I go in and type it up in there. Will Hanke (41:40)That’s fantastic. Josh Tycksen (42:02)And that way I can just remember whatever three letters it was to send out to somebody. And that’s really sped up communication and simplified things for them. Cause then they get a video that explains all the things they’re probably going to start asking me. know, so there’s, there are advantages to a lot of the technology that we use. This is a perfect example. You’re doing a podcast. If other people are tuned in and watching, they could be finding solutions as we chat, you know, so there’s Vince Sturkie (42:15)Mm-hmm. Right. Will Hanke (42:28)I love that. I love the shortcut. Josh Tycksen (42:29)I’m not very good with the systems part, bringing all those systems in to help me, but yeah, that’s a little technology thing I like to use that I think helps. Will Hanke (42:33)Yeah. That’s awesome. Well, I thank you guys for being on. As we kind of switch, I do want to continue to talk a little bit about technology, but I want to get into 2025. What are some of the emerging technologies that you guys are starting to come across or that you’ve seen and you can’t wait to kind of get your hands on? Vince? Vince Sturkie (42:57)gee, I don’t know of anything. mean, maybe I’m out of touch. But I think that one of the things I’m not using that I know exist is being able to put the customer’s windows on my iPad and then dress their windows within the software that the vendors are providing us. Dress their windows with a specific treatment so they can see that roller shade in their window in their home. That exists with a couple of people that we’re dealing with. I’m not currently using that, but I’m hearing good feedback that a customer actually told me they showed me a picture of my window with the treatment in it. And I’m like, wow, I’d heard about this from Graber. And they showed me how the app worked, where we could do it. I just have not embraced that technology yet. I see where that could be a big plus. Especially when you’re standing in front of that customer and most of them aren’t like this, but they’re looking all off into space, they’re lost as a goose, they don’t know what to do, and you’re trying to reel them down to a decision on what direction to go with the product. And they’re just not, you’re talking roller shades, honeycomb, sheer shades, you’re talking about a lot of different things, they don’t know what’s going on, you gotta get it in front of them, they gotta be able to see it. I’ve got it all loaded on my iPad as far as the products, but I think the show and tell or show and sale really works in our business. I had a lady jump out of her skin yesterday on the Smart Drape and I just flipped my iPad around, showed her what it looked like, the video that Norman puts out. She was ready to pick the fabric. before she saw the product, she didn’t have any idea what it cost. So I think… That technology is the piece that I would definitely want to try to add in next year. You know, now that this, you know, that’s something I believe will help us. Will Hanke (44:57)Yeah, yeah, I would say from a marketing website standpoint, our clients always have high traffic on their gallery related pages. On any of the pages that have pictures and videos, people just want to kind of envision what their home could potentially look like. So it makes total sense that that tool where you can actually take a picture of theirs and show it to them, that’s pretty amazing. That’s awesome. Josh, what are you looking forward to in 2025? Vince Sturkie (45:14)Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Josh Tycksen (45:27)Yeah, I mean, I’ve heard kind of what he’s talking about over there. I don’t have a lot of that. You know, I mostly sell from two brands right now. I mean, I’ve got, there’s more than that, but it feels like the more brands I open up to, harder it becomes to teach this to other people. You know, just, so I don’t know. I do want to offer anyway, that’s, that’s drifting, but, I like how you said show and sale. I think that’s a really good example. We get people off and they go, okay, cool. That video you just showed me. Do you have that with this fabric? Like, no. It’s hard enough to organize an automated version of that product, let alone with this valance and that color. You know, there’s a competitor out here, another vendor we compete against or share the value with, and they have a thing where on their website you can build your shutter. That seems simple enough to me, just color, size of louvers, frame and control. But it seems like it’s an impossible thing to get, you know, that they seem to be the only one I know that can do that. Nobody cares to even venture to figure out how to help me get that widget that somebody could just click on and click on this option, this option, and this option to see the color, the frame style, the size of the louvers, and whether it’s got a tilt rod or not, what it looks like. People see that and they go, yes, that’s what I my shirt to look like. And they could be convinced at that point. And that’s enough. As long as you show up and you don’t offend them or they’re not blown out by the price, they’re going to close. know, that kind of technology I think will continue to develop and be easier. and more integrated into our processes. I’m excited to see who figures out making things easier for us in that realm. I’ve just started, somebody convinced me, I felt like an old fool to start using ChatGPT and I’ve got it now as like one of the key apps. Like all my apps are in folders. Every app on my phone is on one page except for ChatGPT by itself on the next page with my Bitcoin widget. But ChatGPT now has become something on the daily where Will Hanke (47:15)You Josh Tycksen (47:24)I’m stopping myself from responding to people and a customer might ask me a question or somebody sent me a text this morning and said, I got my other quote, they’re about $1,200 less than you. I really liked all your stuff, but I’m having a hard time deciding why I should work with you instead of them. And I asked chat GP, I put that text into chat GPT and asked them for a response and I sent it to them and they’re like, you’re right. Okay, let’s go. And I thought that was amazing. You know, I go to BNI now and I don’t even write my own commercial anymore. say, write me a 15 second limerick that’s funny, that has to do with Christmas and my business. And it knows my stuff and it wrote a limerick, you know, about, I don’t know what it was, but everyone loved it. I got best commercial today. You know, it’s so silly, you know? So yeah, there’s stuff out there that like he says, you know, he’s excited about people calling him, offering him things to help with. Will Hanke (47:59)you You That’s awesome. Josh Tycksen (48:20)I dodge those calls quite a bit, but I do actively look for things I’m looking for. And I think that we need to not be closed off to that because some things are going to simplify and free up our time, which the older we get, we realize more and more is our most valuable asset. Now I’m excited to see what kind of stuff pops out here too and start implementing more of this, figure out how I can implement some of that artificial intelligence because I just, I’m like, I’m asking it now how to respond to my wife when she sends me a text. And I’m like, it sounds so stupid. And it’s immediate. And I’m like, all right, I almost have a paid for subscription. Not yet. I’m sure I’ll be there. Will Hanke (48:50)Ha ha ha! Vince Sturkie (48:51)yeah. Will Hanke (48:54)That’s awesome. Great. I love it. That’s fantastic. ChatGPT is great. AI in general, I think, is going to dominate this year. We’re actually testing some AI booking bots right now for some clients and things like that that want to save time on just taking those initial calls. some of Josh Tycksen (49:19)Well, see, and I’ve tried that with a call service and they tell us and I tried it, but then I would listen to those calls and these guys were getting so frustrated. That was like, I’m losing these appointments because this person can’t just answer that. You know, I just said, simplify, just set the appointment. But then it was a bunch of appointments with stuff. It’s like, okay, we didn’t need an appointment for that. You know, and screening it kind of still had to go through. But I think that will develop and be faster. But you could hear on the calls, they’d be waiting. And then getting a response and I was like, that was too long for me. I can’t handle that. I’d be going crazy if I was a customer. I would not feel important. I would feel thrown into a system. So I don’t know. There’s a balance that I think will eventually even out to be to our advantage, but a lot of it I haven’t seen there yet. Doesn’t mean somebody else doesn’t figure it out. I guarantee there’s not only one person out there trying to figure out this answering service for us that will work for a window treatment industry, but. Will Hanke (49:58)Yeah. Yeah, I would agree. think the timing. Josh Tycksen (50:18)All the people I’m seeing it do that referred me to it from HVAC, doesn’t seem to cut it yet. Will Hanke (50:25)Yeah, I definitely think AI is gonna be a big part of the coming year. All right, one more thing, as we close out, I really appreciate all you guys taking the time really to share everything about your business and some things for 2025. Josh, if there was one thing that you could tell another window treatment business, specifically about 2025, what would you say to them? What would you recommend that be their approach? Josh Tycksen (50:56)I I would assume the more I go to networking meetings and coaching and the more I subscribe to that as I get older, realizing that there’s a network of people there with answers to the same questions I have just in a different industry. I wouldn’t be afraid to invest in yourself or your business. would, you know, that was what slowed me down. I mean, I was learning. So it was good that I didn’t do too much that first year. would have bitten off more than I could have chewed and I would have done bad jobs. But you know, establish your values and stick to them and make guide your decisions with those. You know, we’ll go over our core values as a business each day, whether it’s me and two people or me and seven people, where we go through those so that people don’t, they stop calling me or texting me on how to solve a problem. And I say, cause my answer comes back, I’ll respond with one of those core values. I’m looking at them right now, or I’ll just send them the list and say, how do you apply this? And later we might talk about it. So I can say, cool. That was a good solution. We probably could have been more cost effective or more time effective in this regard. So you’ll learn if that ever happens again, this is how you’d apply that. But you stuck with our values. So they’re still going to love us and we’re still going to get five stars, right? And that kind of stuff. So I think having those values defined as a business, not where it’s like, here’s our core values and they’re printed somewhere and nobody could recite them, but like we read them every day. And that was a coaching aspect that we got that I from the coaching group that I was submitted to subscribed with. And that makes a big difference. I really do believe in that. Will Hanke (52:26)I think I mentioned to you earlier, think hiring a business coach was one of the best things I could have ever done. Just having that other set of eyes, right? Helping you see your business from a different standpoint. thanks for sharing that. Vince, what about you? And what do you think would be a good thing to tell a window treatment company for the coming year? Vince Sturkie (52:48)Well I wouldn’t want to tell the guys down the street this a block away but nationally, first thing I would tell them is to fall in love with what you do if you don’t already love it. Because you need to walk into every home glad you’re there, loving that person, loving the opportunity to help them. If you don’t have that, you better get it. Because you’re gonna hate this business next year if you don’t. Because it’s hard… Will Hanke (52:51)You Josh Tycksen (53:14)I’m Vince Sturkie (53:15)Walking into a home is the hardest thing a person can do. They don’t know these people. You’ve got to develop a friendship. You’ve got to come across as an expert to them, be helpful. And if you don’t love what you do, you better fall in love with it. After that, you better find marketing people that you can trust because this business is not going to work without marketing. You better have a marketing guy behind you that you trust. It’s going to take care of you. Josh Tycksen (53:35)Bingo! Vince Sturkie (53:45)that you’re gonna invest your money with and then don’t be afraid to spend your money because I mean, customers get customers. If you have to pay to get customers, in a perfect world, they’d all be referrals, they’d already know who you are, they’d have a 95 % close rate, but we don’t live in a perfect world. We live in a transitory deal where we got people coming from all over, they don’t know who we are. So we’ve got to find a way to reach them. We’re going to reach them through digital marketing. So I would say don’t be afraid to get out there in the digital marketing world. Take that risk to develop that relationship. know, Josh and I were texting a while back and you know, you know, we’re always frustrated with different things and different parts of our businesses. But the one thing is when you have somebody you trust, you wrap your arms around them and you go with them because that’s a difficult. That’s a difficult thing to establish in marketing. Whether it be any type of marketing, but primarily being digital. So I’d say fall in love with what you do. Find a digital marketing company you trust. Grab a hold to them and then stay in the know on what you’re doing and don’t stop because this is a working business. This is not a sit at home and make money business. You’ve got to be in the truck, on the road, on the phone. You’ve got to be either talking to customers, talking to installers. You’ve got to be working. So if you don’t want to work next year, get away from this. Because this is an earn your money business, but it’s a great business to be in if you’re willing to work. Will Hanke (55:13)you That’s great. Vince, Josh, thank you. Thank you for the commercial. But thank you guys for your time and sharing your unique perspectives and experiences. I really do appreciate you guys taking the time to do this. If you enjoyed this episode of Marketing Pains, please consider subscribing. And we’ll have more episodes. We put one out every other Tuesday. And it’s always interviews, whether it’s other dealers or vendors, a lot of different people that we’re trying to. get in front of you to give you more value. We appreciate your time. So please consider subscribing. Josh, Vince, one last time. Thank you guys so much for jumping on today. I appreciate it. Vince Sturkie (55:59)You bet, thanks Will. Josh Tycksen (56:01)My pleasure, thanks. Will Hanke (56:03)Thanks everyone, we’ll see you in the next episode. Transcript All right, hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Marketing Panes the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers and business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. Today, we are doing our Q4 review slash Q1 outlook for 2025 and excited to have two of the best window treatment dealers. in the US on today and that’s a little bit of a play on words here. So we’ve got Josh Tixon, owner of Best Blinds and Sexy Shudders. Josh has a background in professional ballroom dancing. Josh brings precision, artistry and attention to detail to every window treatment project, making Best Blinds and Shudders a trusted name in the Arizona home improvement. And then we’ve got Vince Sturkey, owner of Best Blinds and Shudders. Vince Sturkey owns Best Blinds and Shudders with a commitment to quality and trust, providing custom blind shades and shutters to homes across upstate South Carolina and western North Carolina. Guys, thanks so much for being on today. Vince Sturkie (01:13)Thanks Will. Will Hanke (01:15)Really appreciate you guys jumping on. So we’re going to get into a little bit of the Q4 and Q1 outlook kind of stuff. first, I have a personal question for each of you. Josh, I’m very intrigued by your journey from professional ballroom dancing to window treatments. How has that background and precision and artistry influenced your approach to the business? Josh Tycksen (01:40)It’s interesting. I’ve never really thought about it that way. I just grew up doing it because it was a good hobby. It a good way to meet chicks. My mom said I had to be in either some form of dance or art or music and I liked movement and I like music. I’m a very energetic person. I look like I’m always on about 10 Dr. Peppers, but I don’t really drink a lot of caffeine actually. I just have a lot of natural energy, but the benefits coming from it though are I had to work with a lot of different people in a very intimate Will Hanke (01:46)you Josh Tycksen (02:09)setting, know, where like partnering with somebody, your hands are right on each other, on each other’s back or whatever, and you’re very close and these boundaries are very different. And in learning how to work with, you know, so many different partners and people in those settings, I think it set me up for a lot more success working with the different kinds of people that I encounter on a daily basis in our appointments. And I can read a lot of body language. I don’t even think about it. I just can see it and other people might. not notice those same things, you know, yeah. And, know, and it just, yeah, a lot of attention to detail, cause that’s all you do. You practice some things and he says, Hey, that’s wrong. Do it again. Hey, that’s wrong. Do it again. It’s just the art of perfection. You’re just chasing over and over. And, the presentation at the end is something with the wow factor you’re really going for, where if you’re putting on a show or a performance that people want to be excited about it, and that’s what gets people come into your shows. And so I tend to have a same. flair for our things where I like to show up at the end of installs if I’m not already part of it. And I like to get them so jacked about the products that we’re putting up by the time they’re done that they really do appreciate things that they might not otherwise know about them and kind of go through a little bit of care and, you know, just tutorial with them where we get them all excited. Cause then by the end they’re, you know, they’re like, wow, wow. I had no idea. And, I think that takes them over the top where we can then ask them for those reviews and stuff, you know, really kind of kind of. rolls a cycle that just helps you grow and helps you stay busy. Will Hanke (03:38)Yeah, that’s a great strategy. I love the energy. I think that’s big piece, especially showing up at the end of the install and kind of hyping them up, right? That’s super cool. Very good. Josh Tycksen (03:51)Yeah, I 100 % agree. Especially, mean, like our favorite thing to sell is automation because people want automation. A lot of people ask for it not having any idea what it costs. And they just are thinking about the wow factor part of it. So if you can get them over the price and have something that you know they can count on and love and then really go through and set it up for them, they get really excited about it. So it’s fun. Will Hanke (04:13)Yeah. Very cool. So Vince, question for you too. We were talking before we started today about Josh’s business being called Sexy Shudders. And your comment was around the North Carolina, South Carolina area being a little more conservative. How does that play into your sales approach? Vince Sturkie (04:34)well you definitely got to you know check the room when you walk in every home here because you you know you could you know you don’t know so many people that are here came from somewhere else so you know when we’re here you know we we’re you know we’re country a lot of us are country boys from south carolina you know it’s more rural than it is urban and suburban here but you know we we’re we’re you know we walk in we see things you know you’re like okay what do i what hat do i need to wear today when i’m dealing with these folks but you know people move here for a reason and you know generally they have something in common with the people that are already here and they want to be here with us and so we just kinda just it’s just business as usual really for every single home you know we just went through the election that was kind of political you know you had to you know be a little bit more balanced and careful because you never know what home you’re in But at the end of the day, people are people. And they want to be helped with what they need. And they want you to treat them the way they want to be treated. And if you got all those bases covered, none of that’s going to matter. But it’s made for South Carolina to be a great place to do business right now. Will Hanke (05:46)Nice. Yeah. Like Josh said, you kind of got to read the room, right? And see what’s going on when you walk in. Vince Sturkie (05:54)Yes, absolutely. My installers can’t wear their Trump 24 hats on the job, right? I’m just like, keep it in the truck. But you know, we got a couple of different people here, so they’re all wearing different hats. But I just try to tell them that we’re here to love everybody, serve everybody, and everybody’s getting the same treatment with us. Will Hanke (06:16)Yeah, yeah, that’s great. Thank you. So let’s jump in and talk about Q4, how it’s been. And I think the big thing here is what is the biggest surprising shift that you guys have seen in customer preferences for window treatments? Josh Tycksen (06:35)Benz, you want to go first, you’re welcome to. Vince Sturkie (06:36)Yeah, I think for us here in South Carolina, Will, you know, we’re also getting a lot more requests for motorization than we’ve ever gotten. So we’re hearing motorization more so. Because we have a lot of people here in the South that move from the North, you’ve got a lot of people still asking for Honeycomb Shades, which was real big in the Northeast. You know, whereas in the South, we didn’t do a lot of that product. So as people are migrating to us, we’re seeing a shift toward more honeycombs than ever. Whereas back in 01 when I started, honeycombs were real big, now it’s roller shades, right? So, you know, we’re still seeing people come in asking for roller shades. I think the biggest shift now today in our industry from when I first got in it in 01 is the money flow. We’re having… Back then the average ticket was less than two grand. Now we’re having people spend ten, fifteen thousand dollars like it’s two thousand dollars. And this is cash money, this isn’t borrowed money. So we’re seeing a shift toward higher tickets, we’re seeing a shift toward nicer products, and we’re seeing a shift in people being more easily letting go of the money. Which is really helpful in our business, especially when the margins start tightening. Will Hanke (08:03)Right. Yeah, Josh. I saw you nodding your head around the the motorization stuff. I know you actually mentioned The automation piece a little earlier. Is that the same thing you’re seeing? Josh Tycksen (08:15)Yeah, I mean, I’m trying to always open up our portfolio of what we’ll offer so that we’re current with the latest trends and what people are looking for. Our target market, like defining that really helped a lot. You know, after I got some business coaching a few years back, I want people in a new home. I want it to be their second or their third home. I’m not looking for a 25 to 30 year old in their first home where they could barely afford it. And they’re scraping by on what they can’t afford and instead getting somebody who’s 40 or older and they’ve got a, you $750,000 home or more. And they’ve had an experience like this before. either put up their own window treatments or had a bad experience with somebody else, you know, or they may, once in a while, they may have not still put those in. But most of the time when that’s our target market, it’s a lot easier to, you know, work with people in what, I mean, price matters. I just don’t think it’s the most important thing. And that’s really hard when you’re going into quotes to get people off of that area and to really make sure that you can present the value. and how the experience is going to go when they work with you, how your timeline is going to be kept, you know, and what they can expect from start to finish and after finish if there’s any problems going through those details, you know, as far as coming back to your question, being more specific to Q4, it’s so helpful to look at previous years to have that information, to see how many quotes we had from September into October into November into December, how many leads came in in those times, what those things were for and Even being able to compare it to an election year and see the dip right before the election and then nine closed deals the day after Trump was elected. You know, okay, we’re good. got money. Okay, we’re good. You know, and the phone went off the hook and we closed nine deals the next day. You know, similar to what he said to, know, our average ticket going up, keeping track of that. mean, there’s our market here has a lot of new builds and I just kind of have moved my family to be closer to those because Will Hanke (09:57)you Josh Tycksen (10:14)I see people in new builds, they’re going to get it anyway. It’s a lot harder to quote somebody who thinks they want something because they saw an advertisement and they already have blinds in their house. So it’s not really a need. In a need situation, it’s a lot easier to the deal and you can present options. Yeah, Q4 isn’t always a weird one in December. Right after the 15th up until the 31st, it’s just kind of weird. So just, up through the first 10 days of January, 15 days of January at least, and our trends have stayed the exact same. So it really helps me to be a lot more comfortable. Because I know you’ve seen me freak out on the marketing side where I’m saying, where’s my money going? How much would be allocated here and there? What are you focusing on? Why are we getting calls for this? It helps you calm down a little bit. Will Hanke (10:39)Yeah. Josh Tycksen (10:59)if you can look at those trends and see that they’re almost the exact same, you know, there’s very little variance. Will Hanke (11:02)Right. Yeah, yeah, you mentioned the new builds. What percentage of your business typically is that? And has that increased over last couple of years? Josh Tycksen (11:14)Since I turned my focus to that, big time. I’d say for interior window treatments, I’d say it’s 90%. But we get, now that we’ve started doing patio shades where people get the patio shades or awnings, that’s not fair to say that that’s all with new builds. In fact, the patio shade demographic on the new builds is way lower because those people are already strapped for cash. They already just spent $100,000, $150,000 on the backyard and they already bought all this other stuff. Will Hanke (11:18)Okay. Josh Tycksen (11:43)We have a series that we try to do with them where we connect to those guys a year later. They’ve moved in now, they’ve gone through a lot of that first year of living in a home and now they’re ready for phase two. Right around March, April, there’s a really good opportunity to capitalize on that when they’re getting their tax returns, to send out good information and follow up. You do it in an effort to offer your help and assistance. If they have any questions about the products they got, if they’re running into any issues, if they feel like they need any additional chargers for their shades. You know, or if they want to get the home automation kit now since they chose not to, but then also offering, did you realize, you know, that maybe you’re short on other products? Did you want to cover some of those windows? didn’t. Do you need solar screens to block the sun out? Do you want patio shades to make an indoor outdoor room? So the new build percentage for interior treatment, that is very high percentage. Will Hanke (12:34)Yeah. Vince, are you guys seeing something similar in the Carolinas? Vince Sturkie (12:38)Absolutely. It’s huge. And having been through the mortgage crisis of 08 where people stopped building homes and stopped buying homes, I mean it’s strong enough business increase that you’d lose sleep over it if you thought about what happens if it stops because it would be noticeable. Yeah, we would miss that piece of the business because it’s like Josh said, they have to buy window treatments. They’re not going to live in a $7,000- $800,000 home. with paper shades for long. So at the end of the day, they’re buyers. All they need to do is like you, like your stuff, like your price, and they’re ready to write you a check. So we count on that part of the business, and we count on you. That’s where our digital marketing guru comes in, because we count on you to help keep our name in front of those people. They’re the hardest group to find on the internet, because realtors are looking for new movers. And so when you’re trying to compete with them for the new movers, you know, it gets a little dicey because there’s a lot of money being spent trying to get that person’s attention because everybody wants the guy buying or building the house. Will Hanke (13:46)Sure. Yeah. Josh Tycksen (13:48)I found a lot of the biggest success we have in that is the neighborhood Facebook groups. If you find a new neighborhood and there’s construction going up and you get a customer and you can get in, you can get them to not just give you a review, but post something on the neighborhood Facebook group. It is the biggest return on investment you’ll ever get. matter what you offer them, you get somebody, a troll, a little Facebook troll in their neighborhood group who wants to be social with everybody there to give you some good, some good cloud in there. We’ve done whole streets of homes on both sides. Vince Sturkie (14:18)That’s exactly right. We probably got 20 in one neighborhood and it’s all because one gal is on Facebook promoting us all the time and it just goes like one after the other at that point because nothing’s better than the neighbor deal. Will Hanke (14:35)Yeah, similar approach for Nextdoor. We rolled out Nextdoor ads three or four months ago now. Josh, I think you started doing some of that. Josh Tycksen (14:44)return on those is fantastic. Way better than get from Google, at least I think so. It’s kind of hard for me to see which is which, but I just wanted to change the focus of our next door ads because most of it was coming back with patio shades and those are very labor heavy install. So growth in a different direction to be preferred, but we’ll take it really good from next door too. think that’s a very untapped market. Will Hanke (15:12)It really is. So they just rolled out their new ad platform maybe three or four months ago. We started rolling ours out shortly after that, or the ability to do the ads on there. And 50 % of our clients have already called back and said, let’s do more budget there. So I definitely think it’s something worth paying attention to. like you guys say, it’s very similar to the Facebook groups for the individual subdivisions or parts of town, that kind of stuff. So another question, you guys made it through 2024, congrats. This year has been a very high peak, low valley kind of thing. It seems like you’re either on fire, Josh nine leads in one day and then probably nothing for a week or so. You know, it’s really these ups and downs are crazy. Did you guys experience that same kind of thing? And if so, what was kind of one of the biggest lessons that you learned this year? Vince Sturkie (16:13)For me, know, Will, I switched over, you know, I came on board with you a year ago. You know, so my first quarter of the year was the transition quarter where, you know, you dip before you rip. And so we were in panic mode at the first part of the year. But then as time went on, it just got better and better and better and better. you know, my reps are coming in from Graber and Alta and Norman and Hunter. They’re saying we’re 20 % down. Will Hanke (16:13)Vince, let’s start with Vince Sturkie (16:43)You should be 20 % down. That’s kind of the industry across the board. We’re not closing out this year 20 % lower than last year. We’re going to be right on par to close out the same year with probably about 5 or 6 % more in profit off of the same gross sales. I think we’re actually, this is our best year since I got back at it five years ago. So it’s encouraging when you hear that sales are down and you’re not. And you know that but that’s been the word on the street, but I think I Think all things all things pointed in the right direction I think 25s could be the best year that I’ve seen since I’ve back in it five years ago Unless something dramatically shifts or a black swan event in the economy. I think it’s going forward. I think it’s going to be fantastic I’m thankful for this year. I you know, I’m thankful that You know, I had the confidence to switch marketing companies a year ago and get involved with somebody that I thought could keep me going. I think my switch is part of what has helped me not to decline this year when I know that some of the guys around me are off, have laid off a few people. The bigger houses, especially the 20 member crews, are down a little bit. The reps are telling me this. You know, I’m pretty thankful where we are. I attribute a lot of that to, you know, to Winnitreatment Marketing Pros. And I’m pretty optimistic for 25. Will Hanke (18:20)Thank you for all the kind words. appreciate that. That’s really nice. Josh, what do you think over the last year? Josh Tycksen (18:26)Yeah, very similar. mean, 13 days left in the month, 14 if you count the 31st or Christmas, but we were on a blitz last year. Alta, custom brands group offers, they have their little sales benchmark you got to get to for their Blue Diamond Elite Club, the top of the top. And I was like $65,000 away in cost of good sales. And I just said, you know what? I think I could do it. I normally would invest maybe $3,000 a month in ad spend. And we probably did 9, 9,400 that month instead, because I just said, I’m taking every single freaking thing I can get. I was almost giving stuff away so I could hit that benchmark because I saw it didn’t cost me as much. I’d get a $25,000 credit from CVG. I’d win an extra trip for my installer and his wife. You know, there were other benefits to it on top of the fact of just staying busy in a month that’s slow. So it was kind of annoying and it was during Christmas to get a lot that many calls and whatnot, but Coming year over year and comparing them, we’re probably very similar to what Vince said where we’re going to finish around somewhere between five to 7 % higher in sales than we did a year ago. So we’ve already passed it. We’re five to 7 % ahead of it today. So I don’t have my everything floored right now in marketing where I’m adding onto it. the next two weeks, like I did a year ago either. And our profit percentage is almost the same. It’s less than a tenth of a percent of different for gross profit on those deals and stuff. So it’s been a lot more consistent year. It’s been a lot easier this year than it was a year ago. Those first few years making a lot of adjustments and getting used to the way things flow. I would also go ahead and give you mad props. The window treatment marketing process has been a huge benefit to us in that area. There’s the struggles as a new business owner to feeling that Spend where my first two years didn’t spend a dime. I bought four hundred four thousand postcards From like vista print and I would just go put them up in the new build neighborhoods If I wasn’t working around appointments I’d be putting them up and getting those out and plastering houses with those postcards and that was a great return For what I’d spend is the whole all those postcards cost me 400 bucks. I still have some That was the only money I spent and then somebody convinced me that I should work with you guys and have you do my website two years ago Will Hanke (20:44)you Josh Tycksen (20:51)And I was like, I don’t know, was like a thousand bucks or 1500 a month or something. I just could not stomach that. But I was like, I’ll give it a shot. Three to six months, you know, cause you guys told me you can’t, you cannot make your decision here in the first 90 days. You’ve got to wait 90 days, if not at least six months. said, okay, it kept getting better. So then I was like, great, what if we put money into it? It kept getting better. And then it’s just figuring out how to even that out and realizing that if I track my numbers, there’s trends, whether I pay for marketing or not. There’s trends of when it goes up and when it goes down. There’s holidays and school starting and stopping. There’s elections and all these other weird things. So yeah, like he said, black swan events and stuff, something totally out of the ordinary could dramatically impact how 2025 goes. But I think I’m getting a little bit more business mature in being able to handle the ups and downs and just telling my people, don’t worry about it. You’re still paid this week. Just go get some projects done at home. it’s, but when I call you, I’m going to need you. because it’s going to get crazy, you know, coming up in the next few weeks or based on the last four years, April’s going to be freaking nuts, you know, so. I remember what the question was anymore. Will Hanke (21:59)That was really the biggest valuable lesson that you got this year. Josh Tycksen (22:04)yeah, just having those numbers, having a history to track off of has really helped me to relax and sleep a little better and be a lot more cool. Or you’ll see my emails coming in far less than they used to with how much I was freaking out about everything and every dollar spent and realizing that some things take time to kind of see how they’re going to work. And there will be some dips and some peaks, but there’s not one answer for everything. Will Hanke (22:32)Yeah, yeah. Thank you again for the kind comments. So outside of marketing decision that you made, what was the other best decision you made over the course of the last year that really helped your business grow? Josh? Josh Tycksen (22:50)Opening up our portfolio. We would maybe do one patio shade a month. I wouldn’t focus on it. I put marketing money into it this year and that’s really helped us even out. Even if it’s just keeping my people busy because those installs are very labor heavy. It takes two people, two hours if everything goes perfect to put one of those up. That’s one shade, you know, for four or 5,000 bucks, if you’re running around a 50 % margin. And it’s just really labor heavy compared to like, if I send my guy yesterday, he was on a $12,000 job to put up 33 rollers and did it in four hours. know, but bringing that on and diversifying and adding that gave us a whole market we already had where we could reach out to all of our customers. And we just did it personally instead of with email campaign campaigns. I just kind of went through and I could already check people off the list who I didn’t have that in their backyard or their space. They didn’t have room for it. Or I could just tell us like, that’s a long shot, you know, but adding that having another thing that we could call them and sell when we’ve already built a good rapport with them. That was a good one for us this year. Our repeat customers this year, and this is our fourth year in business, but our repeat customers this year was a big percentage. wasn’t like 2%, 5%. It was like 16 % of our customers this year are repeats. That was insane. And I’m trying to figure a lot of them, it was into new homes, but a lot of them, was adding more, you know? And then, I don’t know, it’s not really repeat, but referrals still from those same loyal customers has been a good percentage of that base too. Will Hanke (24:30)Yeah. Yeah, it’s interesting you mentioned the exterior stuff. I’ve said this on some other videos. I think two years ago, we might have had 5 % of our clients that offered exterior, 5 % of our window treatment clients that offered exterior. And now that’s probably 32, 33 % of our clients are offering exterior. Vince, are you guys doing any exterior stuff or thinking about it? Vince Sturkie (24:55)we are thinking about it we you know i refer that out i got a big company a twenty member team right next door to me almost i’m friends with the owner i send him all the bahama shutters i send him all the exterior track system type shades for porches and stuff they do all that stuff and they’re good at it they’re pretty they’re very pricey so i have to warn the customers that you’re you’re they’re not friendly vince with the money they’re gonna you’re gonna see tickets like you’ve never seen before when they get there but you know, I have to kind of preset it, but, I refer that out now. We’re going to add some product next year. We’re just not sure exactly which one to grab hold to and learn. you know, but we do, we do believe we can grow with product adding product next year that we’re not doing now. I think the biggest thing this past year though, will that’s helped us is I decided at the first of the year to own Google to post open every Saturday from nine to 12, not all day. because what I did in a quick Google search is realized in my market nobody is open on Saturday. And so I would come down to the office, I was already coming to the office, hanging around the warehouse, cleaning my truck, doing something anyway. So what I’m doing is I’m spending a few hours at the office on Saturday mornings. I’m catching leads by people who go on Google and they say, hey, we need to schedule an appointment to get some shutters for our new home. They’re only off on Saturday. They take care of those types of things on Saturday. Being open on Saturday has been a competitive advantage that I think probably all total has gotten me 50 or 60 new leads this past year that, you know, I believe at a 70, 80 % close ratio on an in-home appointment, think it really made a big difference for us. And then the second thing that helped me this year is the Norman rep. told me if I’m standing in front of a sliding glass door to pitch the Smart Drape over something lesser expensive, like a vertical. And I started pitching that thing and nobody knows what it is. They’ve never seen it. Norman’s the most invisible company out there. And I started pitching the Smart Drape, sold one yesterday. It’s a product that if anybody’s ever bought a Luminette, you can triple margin that product. You can You can get good money on that type of product. So there’s little things like that that I just stay disciplined to do that I’ve seen. You know, I’m probably the worst up seller in the world. I’m a down seller probably more than an up seller. It’s just the way I’m built. But people resonate toward my crazy nature of sales where I try to talk people into spending less because it’s better. It’s just not my style to upsell. So I try to stay middle of the road. Will Hanke (27:32)You Vince Sturkie (27:50)Those are the little things I did this year that I think made a difference. Will Hanke (27:54)That’s really interesting. The three or four hours on a Saturday has really profited you, I guess, at the end of the day just by doing something you were all kind of already doing anyway. Vince Sturkie (28:03)Yeah, I was gonna be here either way. Will Hanke (28:05)Yeah, I love that. That’s fantastic. So thank you guys for sharing that. I wanted to talk real quick about regional differences. So Vince, you’re in the Carolinas and you did mention earlier that you’re doing some specific products. Is there anything that you see more than you have in the past or things that are surprisingly similar to other parts of the country? Vince Sturkie (28:32)For us here, most of these new builds that we’re working on, which is big percentage of our business, those buyers are not local buyers. Most of those are coming from somewhere else because Greenville’s in the top 25 places to move to according to the National Association of Realtors. And those people that are coming are coming for the warmer temperatures and lower cost of living. A lot of them have white hair. They’re more like me than they are like Josh. And you know… They’re coming and they’re wanting things that they bought in the past which are plantation shutters. That’s a biggie for an older mature seasoned buyer. He’s probably had shutters before. He’s gonna wanna buy those. We’re seeing more requests for folks in the shutters than we do having folks call for shades. Now if we get somebody moving up out of Florida, moving halfway back to the northeast, They might be talking shades, but a lot of them are also going to be talking shutters because they’re coming out of a heavy shutter market in South Florida. you know, shutters have been big for us this year. Probably more growth in shutters than anything. Shades, I thought, would be our biggest, you know, it just seems like shutters seems to still be ruling, you know, unless we can just turn them. I don’t like taking away. If somebody calls for shutters, I want to stay on the course and give them what they called for. Because sometimes you can try to do a takeaway for an easier install and quicker turnaround on that client. But at the end of the day, I like to leave people with where their heart sits. And if they say shutters, it’s the greatest product I’ve ever sold, so I say love it. Will Hanke (30:12)Right. Yeah, totally makes sense. Josh, I know you’re in Arizona in a pretty hot part of the country. Is there anything that’s on fire in your area? Josh Tycksen (30:23)There’s some seasonal trends I’ve noticed. Solar screens, there are these outside products, they’re not a high profit margin thing for us, but I found a company who goes out, measures them, builds them, brings them out and installs them. And so I can just sell, I mean, I’ve almost got my assistant completely taking over that division because she can do quotes and everything with just pictures and not have to go to their house at all. And so she feels incentivized. Again, adding new products. Norman has the Smart Drape, like he said, and you know, when they flew us up there to VIP and, you know, treat us all special and takes over, you know, will the simple with Norman takes you over to their little shop there. That’s not like a, it feels like a storefront, but it’s actually for them to bring in reps and really train you on their products. And when they did that and showed us the, you know, the, the Smart Drape, that’s been a good ad for us. it’s not cranking yet in terms of, just. where we go to for covering our sliding doors and stuff yet, but it’s another option that we get to provide now instead of just roller shades or honeycomb and nobody really likes to do vertical blinds. Same with Norman has this special blackout where they have sidetracks and it’s called 360 blackout. And that is insane. Where we’ll get calls to black out a master bedroom or a baby’s bedroom or just different places in a home. You know, we just say add X to any window if you want complete blackout. And sometimes people go nuts for that. So it’s, kind of a differentiator that you can have where other people say blackout. So when people say, Hey, we need blackout. And I have to stop them. Hey, hold on. What do you mean blackout? Cause there’s room darkening is kind of the industry term that’s being referred to now where there’s blackout where you’re thinking there’s no light in the room. What are you asking about? And sometimes, no, we’re good. Just a darker room. And some people know I can’t have any light. Will Hanke (32:03)You Josh Tycksen (32:18)where it’s good that you clarified or they might have thought that a regular blackout shade would actually black out their room. Will Hanke (32:25)Interesting. So speaking of regional different things. I wanted to ask you guys about your local networks I think somebody mentioned realtors earlier on. How are you guys building out those local referral networks? Josh will go to you Josh Tycksen (32:41)I’m a member of BNI, Business Networking International. I just got back from that meeting. It’s every Tuesday morning at eight o’clock for a couple hours. There’s 50 other people in there that are specific to their own trades that they do. so I have 50 other people out there who are committed to, you know, making sure I get referred if they know anybody else looking for window treatments. You know, and we’re all in that ballpark for each other, you know, that I’ve got, I know somebody who does this or does that. And so I’ve got a referral list as well that I modified my quote where when they, I print it out, I’ll show up at a home, I’ll do my stuff. And then I just say, if I have 10 or 15 minutes, I can print this for you right now. And they always say, great, that’d be awesome. So I just do it real quick on the computer. And when I print it, it flips the page over now on the backside says, what else are you looking for? Here’s some trusted people we’ve worked with that do flooring, roofing, landscaping, other home services trades. And it was mostly a benefit to them. when we started doing that, it’s circled around now we’ve been doing it long enough where they’re always pushing for us now because, you know, if we have 45 leads or 35 closed deals in a month, that I would bet 20 to 25 % of them are flipping that over and calling some of those people. Will Hanke (33:58)That’s great. I think anytime you can be a resource for people, you still look good in their eyes, even if you just referred them to somebody that can do it better. You still got a little check mark in their mind, right? So that’s always helpful. Vince, how about you? Vince Sturkie (34:10)Mm-hmm. know B &I is great. I actually founded a B &I years ago when I was in mortgage banking. I have preached B &I for years. There’s five chapters in my town. There’s no window treatment slots available or I’d be in one. They stay pretty booked up with a window treatment consultant in them. So it’s kind of got me out of it for the moment. But I will wind up back in a B &I when my turn comes up. For me, I use networking, if I’m in a neighborhood and there’s a model home at the entrance, I’m not leaving turning out of that neighborhood without stopping and walking in and telling that attendant of that model home, hey, I’m working in a house in here. If anyone buying a hall mask, we’d love to help them with their window treatments. I just try to use the boots on the ground stuff that’s easy, hitting those model homes, hitting those real estate agents when they meet you at the house to unlock the door to let you in to measure. for the out of town client, know, try to use that as a chance to introduce myself in what we do. And it is making a difference. Well, I get referrals from builders and realtors I’ve never even heard of. These people need to refer people and they’ll refer people they don’t even know if they don’t know someone and they’re asked for a referral. I’ve done it. So, you know, Will Hanke (35:27)You Vince Sturkie (35:40)It definitely makes a difference to get your card in front of those people and try to keep it there because they will refer people. They need to because people don’t know people. Will Hanke (35:51)Yeah, referral traffic obviously always a little bit warmer as well, right? A little easier to close. So that definitely helps having those relationships and building those relationships as time goes on. Vince Sturkie (36:03)right. Will Hanke (36:05)So I wanted to ask quick about technology. So I know that technology is always changing from the smart home side, the motorization side, but even from just the running a business side. So how are you guys leveraging different digital tools in your networking and in your client relationships? Josh Tycksen (36:25)Vince, you’re probably going to take the cake on this. I used to run restaurants. had several restaurants I was in charge of down here in Arizona. That’s why I moved here. And I got so sick of every employee that was under me. All their problems started to become my problems that I got really sick of big, big crews and big staffs and lots of people. So when I switched to this, I was myself and I loved it for so long because I had total control of my schedule. And then it got, you know, naturally got kind of worn out. I brought on some help to at least do the installs. And I’ve gone through where I’ve brought on a little more, where I’ve trimmed down to a little bit less, but you sound like you’ve got a full on store and several people and a couple of different trucks doing installs and know, three, four different people doing your sales where I systems are a hundred percent mandatory for you to function right without all those hiccups. You know, I’m still very caveman on a lot of that stuff. Cause I find is I’ve This is where I need the most work. There’s so much opportunity for me here, but I get annoyed with the delay. Most of those systems, if I bring in some sort of a ordering portal system that maybe makes it simpler to work between all of my team and the customer and the payment systems and whatever in the schedule, it adds two weeks onto our install time, it seems like, because those orders just take forever to submit or whatever. I haven’t found solutions that I’ve been patient with. never get it that i think too much into productive word sometimes get that done on sitting here Vince Sturkie (37:55)Well, I get it because you can probably do more with your cell phone than I can with a $50,000 processor sitting in front of me. I am a little more old school. So the technology that people are able to, things they can do on their phones, I can’t even do them. But the one thing that has helped me is we have our quoting software, so that gets us into the digital agent quoting. We have Blanco and we have Will with Lead Boomerang, is really, to me, I know that we’re capturing more leads because of Lead Boomerang than we were when we were simply answering the phone or getting a web form submitted, which was what we were before the days of Winda Treatment Marketing Pro. So I think technology-wise there, I think those things have been huge for us. Josh Tycksen (38:25)Which software do you guys use? OK. Vince Sturkie (38:55)I have a lot of room to grow in this. I don’t trust things. I mean, I test my phone number almost daily. I go online and I pull the numbers we’re using for tracking. I’m calling them because I’m scared they’re not working, especially on the days I don’t get any calls. I’m like, okay, what’s wrong with the phone number? And sometimes, believe it not, I found the numbers not working because something’s unplugged. But at the end of the day, I would say, I confess, I probably have a very weak link in technology, in what I could be doing versus what I am doing. I’m always, I mean, I talk to people who call here wanting to sell us things to help us, just because I’m hopeful they might have a good idea that I need. When all they really want to do is take window treatment marketing pros away and start doing it for me. I’m like, no. Will will tell you, it takes me years to trust somebody. I talked to Will Hank you five years ago and it took me four to get on board. So I roll a little too slow some days. Will Hanke (39:55)you Yeah. Josh Tycksen (40:03)I mean, there’s still, yeah, so it sounds like we’re feeling the same there. I’ve worked with my blind co, they’re just, I don’t remember what it was that frustrated me. And I think it was just the delays if you submit through the portal and waiting. And I tell my customers 95 % of our orders this year, this is an accurate number, 95 % of our orders this year have been installed in 30 days or less. We’re averaging 23 days right now from sale to install. And that’s really a powerful tool or a really powerful sales, you know. point to make that people appreciate when they’re moving into a new home and they’re want you installing the day after they close or they just moved in and now they’re feeling vulnerable or whatever. But even if it’s as simple as just having very organized photos on your phones, you can flip open and go to whatever type of product they’re looking for to be able to show them an example real quick. This is a stupid example. I use it often, but in the iPhone, they have a thing called predictive text. I think if you go to general and then keyboard, They have these text replacement phrases. I have thousands where if I type, you know, there’s a built-in one, it’s OMW becomes on my way. Well, I’ve built it in now where I have videos. If you want to know about an automated shade, I can go AR1, AR2, AR3, whatever I type in pulls up a different YouTube link and sends it to them so they can see a video demo of that. And so when somebody says, what’s, we don’t really know what’s trending in homes right now. We’re kind of open to it. I have one trend one and it sends them a video of what we’re seeing lately, you know, and then there’s, I mean, I don’t even know how to go off on that, that I have thousands of those terms in my phone and I’m used to it where GM becomes good morning or I have, you know, I mean, a whole, the things you type over and over, you get sick of typing to people, your address, your email, your whatever, all of them are three digit short codes for me that somehow I have memorized and I just, I don’t want to type that anymore. As soon as I ever feel that I don’t want to type that anymore. I go in and type it up in there. Will Hanke (41:40)That’s fantastic. Josh Tycksen (42:02)And that way I can just remember whatever three letters it was to send out to somebody. And that’s really sped up communication and simplified things for them. Cause then they get a video that explains all the things they’re probably going to start asking me. know, so there’s, there are advantages to a lot of the technology that we use. This is a perfect example. You’re doing a podcast. If other people are tuned in and watching, they could be finding solutions as we chat, you know, so there’s Vince Sturkie (42:15)Mm-hmm. Right. Will Hanke (42:28)I love that. I love the shortcut. Josh Tycksen (42:29)I’m not very good with the systems part, bringing all those systems in to help me, but yeah, that’s a little technology thing I like to use that I think helps. Will Hanke (42:33)Yeah. That’s awesome. Well, I thank you guys for being on. As we kind of switch, I do want to continue to talk a little bit about technology, but I want to get into 2025. What are some of the emerging technologies that you guys are starting to come across or that you’ve seen and you can’t wait to kind of get your hands on? Vince? Vince Sturkie (42:57)gee, I don’t know of anything. mean, maybe I’m out of touch. But I think that one of the things I’m not using that I know exist is being able to put the customer’s windows on my iPad and then dress their windows within the software that the vendors are providing us. Dress their windows with a specific treatment so they can see that roller shade in their window in their home. That exists with a couple of people that we’re dealing with. I’m not currently using that, but I’m hearing good feedback that a customer actually told me they showed me a picture of my window with the treatment in it. And I’m like, wow, I’d heard about this from Graber. And they showed me how the app worked, where we could do it. I just have not embraced that technology yet. I see where that could be a big plus. Especially when you’re standing in front of that customer and most of them aren’t like this, but they’re looking all off into space, they’re lost as a goose, they don’t know what to do, and you’re trying to reel them down to a decision on what direction to go with the product. And they’re just not, you’re talking roller shades, honeycomb, sheer shades, you’re talking about a lot of different things, they don’t know what’s going on, you gotta get it in front of them, they gotta be able to see it. I’ve got it all loaded on my iPad as far as the products, but I think the show and tell or show and sale really works in our business. I had a lady jump out of her skin yesterday on the Smart Drape and I just flipped my iPad around, showed her what it looked like, the video that Norman puts out. She was ready to pick the fabric. before she saw the product, she didn’t have any idea what it cost. So I think… That technology is the piece that I would definitely want to try to add in next year. You know, now that this, you know, that’s something I believe will help us. Will Hanke (44:57)Yeah, yeah, I would say from a marketing website standpoint, our clients always have high traffic on their gallery related pages. On any of the pages that have pictures and videos, people just want to kind of envision what their home could potentially look like. So it makes total sense that that tool where you can actually take a picture of theirs and show it to them, that’s pretty amazing. That’s awesome. Josh, what are you looking forward to in 2025? Vince Sturkie (45:14)Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Josh Tycksen (45:27)Yeah, I mean, I’ve heard kind of what he’s talking about over there. I don’t have a lot of that. You know, I mostly sell from two brands right now. I mean, I’ve got, there’s more than that, but it feels like the more brands I open up to, harder it becomes to teach this to other people. You know, just, so I don’t know. I do want to offer anyway, that’s, that’s drifting, but, I like how you said show and sale. I think that’s a really good example. We get people off and they go, okay, cool. That video you just showed me. Do you have that with this fabric? Like, no. It’s hard enough to organize an automated version of that product, let alone with this valance and that color. You know, there’s a competitor out here, another vendor we compete against or share the value with, and they have a thing where on their website you can build your shutter. That seems simple enough to me, just color, size of louvers, frame and control. But it seems like it’s an impossible thing to get, you know, that they seem to be the only one I know that can do that. Nobody cares to even venture to figure out how to help me get that widget that somebody could just click on and click on this option, this option, and this option to see the color, the frame style, the size of the louvers, and whether it’s got a tilt rod or not, what it looks like. People see that and they go, yes, that’s what I my shirt to look like. And they could be convinced at that point. And that’s enough. As long as you show up and you don’t offend them or they’re not blown out by the price, they’re going to close. know, that kind of technology I think will continue to develop and be easier. and more integrated into our processes. I’m excited to see who figures out making things easier for us in that realm. I’ve just started, somebody convinced me, I felt like an old fool to start using ChatGPT and I’ve got it now as like one of the key apps. Like all my apps are in folders. Every app on my phone is on one page except for ChatGPT by itself on the next page with my Bitcoin widget. But ChatGPT now has become something on the daily where Will Hanke (47:15)You Josh Tycksen (47:24)I’m stopping myself from responding to people and a customer might ask me a question or somebody sent me a text this morning and said, I got my other quote, they’re about $1,200 less than you. I really liked all your stuff, but I’m having a hard time deciding why I should work with you instead of them. And I asked chat GP, I put that text into chat GPT and asked them for a response and I sent it to them and they’re like, you’re right. Okay, let’s go. And I thought that was amazing. You know, I go to BNI now and I don’t even write my own commercial anymore. say, write me a 15 second limerick that’s funny, that has to do with Christmas and my business. And it knows my stuff and it wrote a limerick, you know, about, I don’t know what it was, but everyone loved it. I got best commercial today. You know, it’s so silly, you know? So yeah, there’s stuff out there that like he says, you know, he’s excited about people calling him, offering him things to help with. Will Hanke (47:59)you You That’s awesome. Josh Tycksen (48:20)I dodge those calls quite a bit, but I do actively look for things I’m looking for. And I think that we need to not be closed off to that because some things are going to simplify and free up our time, which the older we get, we realize more and more is our most valuable asset. Now I’m excited to see what kind of stuff pops out here too and start implementing more of this, figure out how I can implement some of that artificial intelligence because I just, I’m like, I’m asking it now how to respond to my wife when she sends me a text. And I’m like, it sounds so stupid. And it’s immediate. And I’m like, all right, I almost have a paid for subscription. Not yet. I’m sure I’ll be there. Will Hanke (48:50)Ha ha ha! Vince Sturkie (48:51)yeah. Will Hanke (48:54)That’s awesome. Great. I love it. That’s fantastic. ChatGPT is great. AI in general, I think, is going to dominate this year. We’re actually testing some AI booking bots right now for some clients and things like that that want to save time on just taking those initial calls. some of Josh Tycksen (49:19)Well, see, and I’ve tried that with a call service and they tell us and I tried it, but then I would listen to those calls and these guys were getting so frustrated. That was like, I’m losing these appointments because this person can’t just answer that. You know, I just said, simplify, just set the appointment. But then it was a bunch of appointments with stuff. It’s like, okay, we didn’t need an appointment for that. You know, and screening it kind of still had to go through. But I think that will develop and be faster. But you could hear on the calls, they’d be waiting. And then getting a response and I was like, that was too long for me. I can’t handle that. I’d be going crazy if I was a customer. I would not feel important. I would feel thrown into a system. So I don’t know. There’s a balance that I think will eventually even out to be to our advantage, but a lot of it I haven’t seen there yet. Doesn’t mean somebody else doesn’t figure it out. I guarantee there’s not only one person out there trying to figure out this answering service for us that will work for a window treatment industry, but. Will Hanke (49:58)Yeah. Yeah, I would agree. think the timing. Josh Tycksen (50:18)All the people I’m seeing it do that referred me to it from HVAC, doesn’t seem to cut it yet. Will Hanke (50:25)Yeah, I definitely think AI is gonna be a big part of the coming year. All right, one more thing, as we close out, I really appreciate all you guys taking the time really to share everything about your business and some things for 2025. Josh, if there was one thing that you could tell another window treatment business, specifically about 2025, what would you say to them? What would you recommend that be their approach? Josh Tycksen (50:56)I I would assume the more I go to networking meetings and coaching and the more I subscribe to that as I get older, realizing that there’s a network of people there with answers to the same questions I have just in a different industry. I wouldn’t be afraid to invest in yourself or your business. would, you know, that was what slowed me down. I mean, I was learning. So it was good that I didn’t do too much that first year. would have bitten off more than I could have chewed and I would have done bad jobs. But you know, establish your values and stick to them and make guide your decisions with those. You know, we’ll go over our core values as a business each day, whether it’s me and two people or me and seven people, where we go through those so that people don’t, they stop calling me or texting me on how to solve a problem. And I say, cause my answer comes back, I’ll respond with one of those core values. I’m looking at them right now, or I’ll just send them the list and say, how do you apply this? And later we might talk about it. So I can say, cool. That was a good solution. We probably could have been more cost effective or more time effective in this regard. So you’ll learn if that ever happens again, this is how you’d apply that. But you stuck with our values. So they’re still going to love us and we’re still going to get five stars, right? And that kind of stuff. So I think having those values defined as a business, not where it’s like, here’s our core values and they’re printed somewhere and nobody could recite them, but like we read them every day. And that was a coaching aspect that we got that I from the coaching group that I was submitted to subscribed with. And that makes a big difference. I really do believe in that. Will Hanke (52:26)I think I mentioned to you earlier, think hiring a business coach was one of the best things I could have ever done. Just having that other set of eyes, right? Helping you see your business from a different standpoint. thanks for sharing that. Vince, what about you? And what do you think would be a good thing to tell a window treatment company for the coming year? Vince Sturkie (52:48)Well I wouldn’t want to tell the guys down the street this a block away but nationally, first thing I would tell them is to fall in love with what you do if you don’t already love it. Because you need to walk into every home glad you’re there, loving that person, loving the opportunity to help them. If you don’t have that, you better get it. Because you’re gonna hate this business next year if you don’t. Because it’s hard… Will Hanke (52:51)You Josh Tycksen (53:14)I’m Vince Sturkie (53:15)Walking into a home is the hardest thing a person can do. They don’t know these people. You’ve got to develop a friendship. You’ve got to come across as an expert to them, be helpful. And if you don’t love what you do, you better fall in love with it. After that, you better find marketing people that you can trust because this business is not going to work without marketing. You better have a marketing guy behind you that you trust. It’s going to take care of you. Josh Tycksen (53:35)Bingo! Vince Sturkie (53:45)that you’re gonna invest your money with and then don’t be afraid to spend your money because I mean, customers get customers. If you have to pay to get customers, in a perfect world, they’d all be referrals, they’d already know who you are, they’d have a 95 % close rate, but we don’t live in a perfect world. We live in a transitory deal where we got people coming from all over, they don’t know who we are. So we’ve got to find a way to reach them. We’re going to reach them through digital marketing. So I would say don’t be afraid to get out there in the digital marketing world. Take that risk to develop that relationship. know, Josh and I were texting a while back and you know, you know, we’re always frustrated with different things and different parts of our businesses. But the one thing is when you have somebody you trust, you wrap your arms around them and you go with them because that’s a difficult. That’s a difficult thing to establish in marketing. Whether it be any type of marketing, but primarily being digital. So I’d say fall in love with what you do. Find a digital marketing company you trust. Grab a hold to them and then stay in the know on what you’re doing and don’t stop because this is a working business. This is not a sit at home and make money business. You’ve got to be in the truck, on the road, on the phone. You’ve got to be either talking to customers, talking to installers. You’ve got to be working. So if you don’t want to work next year, get away from this. Because this is an earn your money business, but it’s a great business to be in if you’re willing to work. Will Hanke (55:13)you That’s great. Vince, Josh, thank you. Thank you for the commercial. But thank you guys for your time and sharing your unique perspectives and experiences. I really do appreciate you guys taking the time to do this. If you enjoyed this episode of Marketing Pains, please consider subscribing. And we’ll have more episodes. We put one out every other Tuesday. And it’s always interviews, whether it’s other dealers or vendors, a lot of different people that we’re trying to. get in front of you to give you more value. We appreciate your time. So please consider subscribing. Josh, Vince, one last time. Thank you guys so much for jumping on today. I appreciate it. Vince Sturkie (55:59)You bet, thanks Will. Josh Tycksen (56:01)My pleasure, thanks. Will Hanke (56:03)Thanks everyone, we’ll see you in the next episode.

Guest Profile: Jessica Harling Jessica Harling is a 4th Generation Window Treatment Specialist, founder of Behind the Design, and leading expert in employee and process development for design trade organizations. Behind the Design nurtures top talent through recruiting, onsite and online training, and consults with leadership in streamlining processes that increase productivity and impact the company’s bottom line. Other Notes/Links: To learn more about Jessica Harling visit: Go Behind The Design pssst…. want to be a guest on the show? Listen to other episodes Video https://youtu.be/dLncJU8JgzQ Click here to display Transcript Transcript Will Hanke – WTMP (00:00)All right. Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of Marketing Panes, the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers or business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. Today I have our first ever return guest and you know, when you’re, when you’re really good at what you do, you got to have them back on to pull out some more knowledge. So I’m excited to have Jessica Harling on today. Jessica is a 4th generation window treatment specialist, founder of Behind the Design and leading expert in employee and process development for design trade organizations. Behind the Design nurtures top talent through recruiting, on -site and online training, and consults with leadership in streamlining processes that increase productivity and impact the company’s bottom line. Jessica, thank you for being on today. Jessica Harling (00:54)It is my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me again. I’m excited. Will Hanke – WTMP (00:59)Yeah, yeah, you’re pretty well known in the industry. So I’m sure a lot of people know who you are if they haven’t already heard the previous episode. But excited to have you on. For those that maybe don’t know, could you share a little bit of your background and your current role in the window treatment industry and how you help businesses succeed? Jessica Harling (01:18)Yeah, absolutely. Well, I have a love of it that is very deep. I’m fourth generation in window treatments. So my great grandfather started business in 1936 in Chicago, and that’s where I learned the business. Got into it about 14 years ago and worked with my mom and my grandpa and opened then the consulting firm behind the design about eight years in. and just haven’t looked back. It’s been a pleasure working with other window covering companies and interior design trades to help them with their recruiting, training, or their process development, which is my favorite part, is getting in there and uncovering what inefficiencies there are and making it more streamlined so that they can scale, they can get to those goals that they’re looking forward to. Will Hanke – WTMP (02:14)Yeah, I love that you grew up in the industry and you’re kind of like in it whether you wanted to be or not, right? I’m sure after school you came home or you came to the store and helped out and I also love that you found a niche inside of that. You didn’t just turn into another sales, into your salesperson like maybe your parents did that kind of stuff. I love that you kind of found your own path. Jessica Harling (02:39)Yeah, I really, I loved it. And the funny part is I didn’t know what my parents did for the longest time, my mom, my grandpa. I mean, they knew they were in design and I knew that every year when we had a garage sale, we’d be selling a lot of fabric and we had bolts and bolts of it in their garage. But before I got into the industry, I really didn’t know anything about it and wasn’t that kid that was going into the shop and stuff. So I learned everything from Will Hanke – WTMP (02:48)You Okay. Jessica Harling (03:08)the incredible reps in this industry and of course the knowledge that my family brought to it. But that’s, you know, all been generated from working in the industry. Will Hanke – WTMP (03:19)Right, right. So tell me who your target market is for behind behind the design. Jessica Harling (03:25)Yeah, well we certainly love window covering companies still. So we work with a lot of them, but I’ve tried to expand it to the interior design trades. So we work with whole handful of interior designers, flooring, paint companies, anything that’s gonna beautify a home or even work with commercial companies. But usually our clients are starting to hit over that million dollar mark. They might be approaching two million. and we help them get and scale to that $10 million mark or wherever their goal is towards that. Will Hanke – WTMP (03:55)Okay. Okay, that’s a great niche. They have enough revenue to make changes, get things done. And also at a million, you’re probably to the point where you kind of have to get your SOPs in place. In a lot of places, they probably haven’t done that. And somehow they’re still selling a million dollars a year, which is insane. Jessica Harling (04:10)Yes. Yep. Yeah, absolutely. And it’s just so fun working with those business owners and teams. You we’re not just working with the owner. So everyone is on the same page with those processes because they’re the ones executing on it. So they need to get behind it. Will Hanke – WTMP (04:31)Yeah. Right, right, very good. So how do you position yourself in the eyes of your customers? Jessica Harling (04:41)Yeah, I’m big on business development and one of the things that even, you my clients have commented on is that I have friends everywhere. And so part of working with Behind the Design is a holistic view of everything in their business. mean, literally we’ve helped with restructures where they thought they were going out of business and they had half a million in debt and we flipped it all around, got them profitable, put structures in place, hired a bunch of people, them all. So whatever the problem is, we’re there to tackle it. And I know you’re big fan of Traction by Gina Wickman. It’s one of my favorite books. And so for anyone that loves that too, we are the integrators. That’s what we do. We take your ideas, your vision, and we come up with a plan and a pathway that makes sense for everyone in the company and how to execute it. And then we help you do that. Will Hanke – WTMP (05:35)Love it. Every visionary needs an integrator, right? That’s great. Yeah, yeah, that’s awesome. As a business owner, we have way too many ideas, and we really need somebody to say yes or no or let’s table that, right? Or else we just have tons of ideas for the most part. Jessica Harling (05:38)Yes. It’s for you. Mm Thank That’s right. That’s right. And sometimes to have no idea of like how to actually implement it, like might be so innovative that it hasn’t been done before. how do we create, how do we engineer something to make it happen? And that’s what we love to do. We like to take those ideas and then build the foundation around it. Will Hanke – WTMP (06:16)Yeah, yeah, awesome. So I went back and looked on my website. It looks like you were on episode 21 of ours, and we talked a lot about hiring. So today, we’re going to switch it up a little bit and talk more about sales and lead handling, that kind of stuff, so that when the phone rings, what do you do, right? So let’s talk about that. When a lead comes in, what really is the first step that a business should take to ensure Jessica Harling (06:38)you Will Hanke – WTMP (06:44)that it’s managed effectively and obviously moves towards a sale. Jessica Harling (06:49)Yeah, you know, this may sound really simple, but you have to engage in some exciting, passionate, bubbly way, whether they are walking into your showroom or they’re calling you. It is so amazing. I’ve walked into so many showrooms where the associate is just sitting there and they don’t even say hi when you walk in or they don’t even look up. And so my rule of thumb always in managing a showroom was someone walks in the door, you stand up and you go greet them. And if they don’t need you, you can hover and go in another area, but you need to give that big warm welcome. Thank you so much for joining, know, coming in here. Not give them five minutes and then maybe you’ll approach them. Will Hanke – WTMP (07:33)Yeah, I like that. I listened to a phone call today from one of our clients and the phone was answered, I’ll role play here, ABC Blinds. And that’s all they said, right? They’re like, what do you want? Jessica Harling (07:44)Right? Yeah, you interrupted me. Yeah. Will Hanke – WTMP (07:51)Yeah. So I think having something in place, like you said, be excited about it. And I guess it probably gets a little bit monotonous if you’re the one on the ladder doing the installs and the phones are ringing. I can see it being a little bit of a frustration, but there’s probably ways to handle something like Jessica Harling (08:11)Yeah, I mean, you gotta assume that that’s your next big… break your big deal, you know, they could spend $100 ,000 with you. You have no idea. And I had that exact example happen when I was working in the family business. We were within a kitchen and bath showroom, very large in the Chicago area. And they in the area have this reputation for not being warm and fuzzy. You know, you don’t as a consumer walk in and like get incredible service. It’s because they’re more to the trade, but they like literally will ignore you. you when you walk in. And there was a woman that came and strolled into my section of the showroom and I stood right up. I was even training someone. I was like, all right, perfect example. Let’s stand up and greet her. And I go over and she’s like, Will Hanke – WTMP (08:55)Yeah, yeah. Jessica Harling (08:59)not a single person. I’ve been here for an hour’s greeted me.” And I was like, Whoa, well, so sorry. Let me help you now. And she goes off. She was like, that is not service. I have so much money. I could fly to Timbuktu and back in a day. And it would be, you know, like I’d buy the store. And she went off. And I was like, well, Will Hanke – WTMP (09:03)You Jessica Harling (09:23)I can help with the draperies, I can’t help you with the kitchen and bath, I’m sorry. She’s like, no, you are gonna help me with the kitchen and bath. You’re gonna follow me around and write down the things that I want and you’re gonna hand it over to whoever needs to do anything. So she was pissed. And so we were walking around and in the kitchen and bath showroom, the manager sees me and the owner was there too. They’re like, what is Jessica doing in our neck of the woods consulting client? Will Hanke – WTMP (09:26)Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yes. Jessica Harling (09:51)So I’m waving them over behind her back and everything and they come over. She gave him peace of her mind, but she then came back the next day a little bit more calm with her husband. And he, she was like, I just want to introduce you to the woman that helped me. And it ended up being the largest sale in the company’s history, what she bought. And I was taken out to dinner because of it. Like it was a big deal, all because I said hi and I smiled. So you gotta have that excitement. You have to have that love for what you’re doing or it’s gonna come across that way. It’s going to come across that you don’t wanna be there. Will Hanke – WTMP (10:31)Great story, yeah. And like you said, it turned into a huge deal. yeah, answering your phone every single time or greeting people when they come in. my gosh, it’s so huge. Yeah. All right. Jessica Harling (10:41)So important and to have a method for it. You know, you need to be the person that’s in the know. You’re the voice and the face of the company. So their first impression is you picking up that phone. Will Hanke – WTMP (10:53)That’s Yep. Yep. I’ve even heard some sales training where you get yourself excited, you smile, you know, all these different things before you make a call or something like that. So I think those things work, right? I mean, they do for me at least. Jessica Harling (11:05)I’m good. Yeah, we had at the family business, put little smiley face stickers on everyone’s phone handle. So every time they went to pick it up, they could smile and remember, you know, turn it on. Will Hanke – WTMP (11:20)Yeah, yeah, that’s great. Well, we talked about showrooms. Let’s talk about the other side, which most window treatment companies do, I think, and that’s the in -home consultation. So what are some key strategies for doing those successfully with potential clients? Jessica Harling (11:31)You know what? Yeah, I think a big part of it does come back to a process. If getting the lead coming in is part of the emotional side, then taking them through the actual appointment process should then seal the deal. And when you’re thinking about it, that customer on the other side, putting yourself in their shoes, they are gonna want to be comfortable with someone. They’re gonna want confidence in their decision. And if you give any sort of impression through that sales appointment that you are not comfortable with what you’re selling, or you’re not confident in yourself, or you’re not explaining all of the things that could go wrong or right with this product, like if you don’t do all those things, then you’re gonna have a hard time getting that customer to buy from you. That’s why it’s gonna feel like a chase versus if you had a process in place. and you follow that every single time, your close rate would go up, your engagement with your customers and your repeat customers are gonna go up. And so even if you don’t follow a particular method, come up with your own process for it because that is going to consistently build better results. Will Hanke – WTMP (12:54)Yeah, yeah, very important to have that. And of course, after, know, whether it is somebody that came into the showroom, you went to their home, maybe you didn’t close the deal there. What are some good, like best practices for following up with those leads? Jessica Harling (13:11)Well, follow -up is huge. It takes, and I’m sure you know these statistics, the overall concept of someone buying, it’s gonna take seven to 12 touch points to get to that purchase. And so if you, as one touch point, called and set up the appointment, that’s one. If you call and confirm the day before, that’s another touch point. So you’re on your third touch point before you get to your appointment. And if they’re not buying that day, you’ve got at least five more to go to get into that seven to 12 range where so many people, they literally drop the ball on the followup. One of my favorite things is to shop the competition, to stay relevant, to understand what tactics are happening and such. And one of my early ones that I did shopping for, three companies came out within three days of each other. This was about 10 years ago. not a single company ever followed up with me. Not one email, not one person put me on an email campaign that was like, here, we have this discount going on. Nothing. Three companies in the same area did nothing to follow up with me. And I told them all I was shopping around and getting other competitor quotes. I didn’t tell them no, I didn’t close the book. So, That is the power of follow -up. You’re just gonna increase your close rate tenfold if you continue afterwards. Because your best shot on an in -home appointment is a 50 -50 chance. Yes or no? They’re moving forward. But if after the appointment you continue to follow up when your competitors aren’t, you’re increasing that chance to 65 -75. Will Hanke – WTMP (14:58)Yeah. And those follow ups don’t have to be like you physically doing something, right? Like in our lead boomerang system, we’ve got an automation for a lot of our clients where they follow up. Maybe it’s a, they send a video on, you know, on Shades or something, and then they send a case study. They drop a voicemail on the client’s phone. There’s other ways to do it besides you just have to pick up and call them back, right? Jessica Harling (15:23)That’s right, that’s right. And my favorite is automation because you can use your phone calls for that personal touch and you can also, which people don’t realize, you can make your automation sound personalized. It doesn’t have to sound like a robot wrote it, you know. So if you just take the time to think about what you would want to expect, again, going in the customer’s shoes, then yeah, automation is going to be your friend because you can set it and forget it, you know, and still get that. Will Hanke – WTMP (15:37)Sure. Yeah. Jessica Harling (15:53)result of people contacting you. Will Hanke – WTMP (15:56)Yeah, very, very much agree. So let’s talk about sales, right? Some things you can do with your sales team if you have a sales team or if it’s yourself doing the sales. What are some different training techniques, things like that that you can do or provide to ensure some great customer service? Jessica Harling (16:20)Yeah, I think in sales it’s hard to get away from role playing and I know it’s the biggest eye roll for everyone. It was something that I hated particularly, like I didn’t want to do it. But the thing about role playing is it’s just practice. And so if you have in your, you know, sales meetings some ability to do a role play, it will help. I know that you just had LuAnn Nigara on talking about objections. And so one of my favorite role plays to do about objections is you guys know the objections. You know they’re gonna say the price is too high. You know it. You know they’re gonna say the spouse needs to talk to whoever. You know that they’re not ready. So come up with a script. Come up with a phrase that you’re gonna use every time those objections come up. But the problem is so many people go, what a surprise. They don’t like the cost of it. Shocker. Okay, well how are you gonna overcome that? You have time to practice. You have time to think about it. So just put together a script, try that role play, and then when it happens on the appointment, you’re gonna be so calm, cool, collected that they’re gonna feel that from you and go, man, these people got it. They had it answered for every question. Will Hanke – WTMP (17:16)you Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I I’m in a program that helps with things like sales. And one of the things they do is the role play. And I’m the same way I used to be like, God, you I’m not ready, you know, but the the guy that was running it was successful, multimillion dollar business. Right. And he would say, OK, let’s just role play this ring ring. And you’re like, hello. You know, but it is ultimately even if no matter how bad Jessica Harling (18:04)Alright. Will Hanke – WTMP (18:09)you do going through the role play, you’re still going to learn something from it because most likely they’re going to give you feedback on what you did say. Jessica Harling (18:15)Yeah, and so many times people just practice in the appointment itself. And so that’s why you’re fumbling over your words. That’s why you feel like you said the wrong thing, because it’s the first time it’s coming out of your mouth ever. So don’t let it be the first time. Even if you’re practicing in front of the mirror by yourself and no one has to see you, but you’ve got to practice it out loud. Maybe it’s near car drive to the next appointment. You have to talk it out loud. Will Hanke – WTMP (18:43)Yeah, yeah, I even had a I had purchased at one point some flashcards of sales objections, right? Okay, customer says price is too high and you flip it over and you know, there’s the answer or what you should probably respond. I can see that being very helpful. You know, like you said, list down the objections, you know, you’re already going to get and then have some sort of at least maybe not pre -programmed answer, but have something in mind of what to say, right? Jessica Harling (18:49)Mm. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Will Hanke – WTMP (19:14)Be a little bit prepared at least, right? Jessica Harling (19:16)You’re doing it every day. Again, it’s not a surprise. Will Hanke – WTMP (19:21)Yeah, yeah. So another thing that we did recently was we had Sandra VanSickel on and we talked a lot about work rooms. She was fantastic. So tell me about best practices around creating and maintaining relationships with work rooms. Jessica Harling (19:32)huh. Yeah, well, any sort of vendor relationship, you need to treat that as sacred as your customer relationship, especially a workroom that is getting you the goods that you’re selling. And so to help maintain and develop some of those relationships, I would first start by getting involved in the design industry to like find those workrooms that you can work with. Maybe you’ve always used the same one, but… you can search out others for backup when the one is too busy. So to maintain those relationships, a big part of it is giving and taking and communication. If you send them work, well then make sure your work orders are pristine for them. And they are responsive to any questions that you have or they have for you about your work. That’s gonna help build those relationships. Again, it goes back to process. We want to make sure to a streamlined process in between that communication, like maybe you meet biweekly and you go through what open projects you have, or maybe on a quarterly basis, you review any errors that came through for the workroom. So all of those things can help enhance the relationship if you have a solid process and keep those communication lines open. Will Hanke – WTMP (21:04)Right. And working backwards to the sales side of things, letting your sales team know, you know, the at least the top level things about the workroom, what their turnaround time is, that kind of stuff, maybe giving them a tour or something like that so that they can talk about it in a very positive way. Jessica Harling (21:23)Yeah, that’s a great point because I remember when I had a sales team go to the workroom and they could actually see the work being done. Their level of respect and their level of excitement came out when they were talking about it with people. They lit up because they’re like, wow, the work that we were able to see. And they do it by their hands. You know, that’s what’s unbelievable. They’re literally crafting this stuff by hand versus a big manufacturer doing it at a factory. So. You know, when you think about that, really helps enhance the value of what you’re selling to your customers. Will Hanke – WTMP (21:57)Yeah, yeah, very much so. It always really helps open their eyes, I think, to to what’s going on behind the scenes. Right. Jessica Harling (22:04)Yeah, absolutely. And even to develop a relationship with the upholsterers, with the seamstresses, to have them understand who they’re working for or towards with their client projects. I know working with workrooms that they just love to see the end picture. Sometimes they don’t get to see it. Once it’s out of their hands and the designer takes it and installs it, it doesn’t get back to them the beauty of their work. So just simply by… sharing photos after installation will help enhance that relationship. Will Hanke – WTMP (22:37)wow. Great tip. I love that. That’s a great idea. So let’s talk about that leveraging technology. Right. So we’ve got people in workrooms that are doing physical work, but there is a way to kind of, you know, move your business in a way of technology, such as sharing on Instagram or sharing with the workroom. So what role does technology play in in our world that that you see on a normal basis? Jessica Harling (23:05)Yeah, well, the workrooms that we work with on the consulting side, a lot of the work is based around CRMs that we can implement and help them manage their workflow. And for example, one of the big ones that we’ll utilize can have the work order all pulled up. You can quote in the same module, you know, and… have some of those efficiencies to get the pricing right because that’s a big pain point for the workrooms is take so much time to quote, take so much time to get those over for an interior designer that may not even be doing the project. So by utilizing those sorts of platforms, you can save yourself time. You can also save yourself from redoing that estimate a bunch of times. Like if you’re doing it manually. and it’s not spitting it out from a computer system, then it’s that continuous time to redo your work. And gosh, who wants to do your work all over again? So it’s a lot of time saving for sure, which then goes into cost, because you can then spend time selling or connecting or project managing whatever your role is. Will Hanke – WTMP (24:08)Yeah. Right. Right. And I know you mentioned automations. Our lead boomerang system, you know, it’s based on a lot of automations of things such as touch points. Right. You mentioned touch points as soon as somebody signs up, maybe send them a 24 hour notice that you’re you’re going to be there tomorrow so that they’re home. You know, those kinds of things are really nice and simple to set up to. Jessica Harling (24:41)Yeah, and I love those because again, like people are all about the now, the immediacy of everything. And with custom, that’s hard, right? There’s four 12 week turnaround times on some products. And so to have them wait after they were all excited and they purchased is such a bummer. But if you can utilize all of those automations and those checkpoints in between with the customer, You keep them engaged as you go and it doesn’t get this huge roller coaster of emotions because you just went radio silent on them. Will Hanke – WTMP (25:18)Yeah, I guess in a perfect world, a workroom that also engaged in some technology would be cool. Like, you know, they take pictures of your stuff halfway through, or here’s Jane working on your draperies, that kind of stuff. That’d be pretty neat, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s just getting somebody to actually do it, right? Jessica Harling (25:32)Love that. Yeah, those are great ideas. Will Hanke – WTMP (25:39)Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. So OK, after the appointment, maybe even after the install, we need to get some customer feedback, right? What are some different strategies for collecting that feedback and getting it out to the world? Jessica Harling (25:59)Well, I think a big part of it is you have to ask multiple times, multiple different ways. You are not just gonna get a bulk of your responses in one way. So yes, you are gonna have your installer give something to them at the end of your process that asks them for a review. Then you could have someone in the office contact them, making sure that they’re satisfied. Asking for a review you can send an email follow -up asking for a review So it is gonna take a campaign and is gonna take multiple attempts Just like you’re gonna have to do follow -ups to close your deal. It’s no different. And so it’s just people You know, they just don’t do it right away and you don’t want to overwhelm them either for example You know if you are giving them a final closeout email and you’re like Will Hanke – WTMP (26:43)Yeah. Yeah. Jessica Harling (26:53)Here’s the final invoice. Here’s a review request. Also call us if you need anything. Like if you’re overwhelming them with too many calls to action in one email, they’re not gonna do all of them. They’re gonna do one of them at best. So you gotta be strategic with your review asking placement so you’re not getting muddled against everything else that is going around. Will Hanke – WTMP (27:16)Yeah, yeah, very important. We have bought a new refrigerator about a month ago from Lowe’s and the guys came in here and they put it all together and plugged it in and driving away. They couldn’t have been gone five, 10 minutes. And I got a call from somebody at Lowe’s. Hey, how did the install go? Everything, you know, any problems, anything like that? I was like, my gosh, this is crazy. Cool. You know, it was it was really impressive that that they had that kind of a system in place. Jessica Harling (27:43)Yeah, that is amazing when you can check in after. And I’m a big proponent of that in our processes, whether it’s someone in the office or your designer or whoever, someone has to follow up with the customer after the installer was there. Because so many times, the installer is the last impression. And the installers, a lot of times, they’re very skillfully crafted. They know what they’re doing. But they’re sometimes like doctors. They don’t have the best bedside manner. And so if you want that as your last impression of what that brand and reputation is gonna be, maybe you can control it a little bit more if yourself as the manager, one of your sales team or someone in the office then follows up. I am always a big believer in that because then you can warm it up, know, put a fighting button to the experience. Will Hanke – WTMP (28:33)Right. Great point. Yeah, there’s a those guys are very smart when it comes to installing, but maybe they’re not great salespeople, right? And they then they don’t need to be. But yeah, but having that piece in place really does just overall makes a better customer experience. Yeah. So let’s talk real quick about business growth. So for our for our listeners out there, Jessica Harling (28:44)Yeah, exactly. Will Hanke – WTMP (29:01)What are some key strategies for planning and managing growth in the business and how can companies prepare for scaling? I know that’s an easy question, right? Jessica Harling (29:11)I think the first thing is an awareness thing before some key strategies and the awareness part of it is as you grow, your business changes and your people changes, it goes through different cycles. And oftentimes when we get approached on the consulting side and we get into the business, there’s so much regret as to like an apologies, as to like, where they’re at in business and why they have to have a consultant to help them to the next level. And I always like to remind everyone, what got you here is your processes. You are at a place where you’re at above a million dollars. That is so difficult for businesses to do. And especially if you’re above that, two, three million, and then regretting everything that came before, no, no. We gotta rework that that mindset because… Will Hanke – WTMP (30:04)Right. Jessica Harling (30:08)Businesses do go in cycles. So you’re gonna get this pit like I call it in the million dollar to two million dollar mark then between like four and six million and then about eight nine million in order to get to your big next levels and so just know that your Processes are gonna change at those different milestones and it’s on purpose so that you can get to the next level But what you did prior to that is not bad It’s what led you here. So we can take some of that and then just massage it so it makes sense moving forward. Will Hanke – WTMP (30:44)Yeah, yeah, good problem to have, I guess, right? If you’re growing and you’re not sure what to do. But it’s not unusual for everything to break when you hit certain points. Jessica Harling (30:53)Exactly. And so when that breakdown occurs, I would say to the next point is with strategy, start to identify it. You if you’re trying to figure out a process, just observe it. You know, before I created what I call the life, the client process, what I did is I observed over a 90 day period and I watched what the file did before, you know, our technology. And so literally I would star a file. Will Hanke – WTMP (31:19)Yeah Jessica Harling (31:22)and I would watch it from every stage and who hit it and how long they had it for and why they had it for that long and I just kept watching it and we tracked it and when we got the data then we could see where the pitfalls were, know, between our steps. Why is this taking two weeks? It should take three days. How are we gonna solve that? So you can’t change a process without first looking at what you currently have. Will Hanke – WTMP (31:34)Yeah. Jessica Harling (31:49)because you might be changing something that’s working and so you have to really do a good deep dive first to figure out what is the problem and a lot of times, actually 9 times out of 10, 9 and a half times out of 10, what you think is the problem is actually the symptom. So if you don’t do enough analysis, if you don’t dive deep, then all you’re gonna be doing is fixing the face value problem and not getting to the root of it. Will Hanke – WTMP (32:15)Yeah, yeah. I also, I really like that you mentioned, you know, something that should take a couple hours, you know, takes a couple of weeks. I think that’s part of those businesses that are, you know, over a million where they’re starting to figure out how can we start to increase efficiency, right? And start to figure out, okay, this should take this long. Let’s watch a flag if there’s, you know, more than 10 % variant and something like that. Those things are really important to continue to grow as well. Jessica Harling (32:44)Yeah, and you touch on a good point because I was talking to a client about this today. He is in a larger business that has four to six turnaround times, but his dad who just he bought out his dad is used to like two, three week turnaround times because he was the only person doing it. So the day it came in was the day it went out or the day he sold it was the day he ordered it. And that doesn’t happen in bigger. industries or bigger companies and so that’s where process then becomes critical so we can shave it down to the two weeks or the three weeks and still have all the checkpoints but there is a difference there you’re right. Will Hanke – WTMP (33:25)Yeah, yeah. And then you start talking about things like cash flow, right? And how long do you want that money tied up? All kinds of stuff we could get into. But I appreciate the comments around the business growth. I think a lot of our listeners are in that scale mode, right? And looking for tips and ideas and ways to get to the next level. Jessica Harling (33:45)Yeah, it is so much like a puzzle. You just have to have the patience to dig into it. Will Hanke – WTMP (33:51)Yeah, yeah. Well, listen, Jessica, as always, I do appreciate your time. I appreciate your expertise. You’ve helped us a lot in sales and we touched a little bit on processes and stuff, which are always going to be a huge part of any business, no matter the size, right? I think they just change as time goes on. But thank you for your insights today. I do appreciate it. Jessica Harling (34:16)Thank you Will, it’s been pleasure. Will Hanke – WTMP (34:18)Yeah, no problem. So if you are listening and you like this episode or you like any of the other episodes If you haven’t checked out jessica’s previous one go back and listen to that for the hiring side of things She’s got some great tips in there as well. Make sure to subscribe to our podcast. We’d love to have you alerted when new episodes come out, which is every two weeks and once again Jessica Thank you so much for your time. I hope you have a great day Thank you Jessica Harling (34:44)Thanks, Will. Transcript Will Hanke – WTMP (00:00)All right. Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of Marketing Panes, the podcast where we talk with real window treatment and awning service providers or business owners about their successes and struggles related to marketing their business. Today I have our first ever return guest and you know, when you’re, when you’re really good at what you do, you got to have them back on to pull out some more knowledge. So I’m excited to have Jessica Harling on today. Jessica is a 4th generation window treatment specialist, founder of Behind the Design and leading expert in employee and process development for design trade organizations. Behind the Design nurtures top talent through recruiting, on -site and online training, and consults with leadership in streamlining processes that increase productivity and impact the company’s bottom line. Jessica, thank you for being on today. Jessica Harling (00:54)It is my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me again. I’m excited. Will Hanke – WTMP (00:59)Yeah, yeah, you’re pretty well known in the industry. So I’m sure a lot of people know who you are if they haven’t already heard the previous episode. But excited to have you on. For those that maybe don’t know, could you share a little bit of your background and your current role in the window treatment industry and how you help businesses succeed? Jessica Harling (01:18)Yeah, absolutely. Well, I have a love of it that is very deep. I’m fourth generation in window treatments. So my great grandfather started business in 1936 in Chicago, and that’s where I learned the business. Got into it about 14 years ago and worked with my mom and my grandpa and opened then the consulting firm behind the design about eight years in. and just haven’t looked back. It’s been a pleasure working with other window covering companies and interior design trades to help them with their recruiting, training, or their process development, which is my favorite part, is getting in there and uncovering what inefficiencies there are and making it more streamlined so that they can scale, they can get to those goals that they’re looking forward to. Will Hanke – WTMP (02:14)Yeah, I love that you grew up in the industry and you’re kind of like in it whether you wanted to be or not, right? I’m sure after school you came home or you came to the store and helped out and I also love that you found a niche inside of that. You didn’t just turn into another sales, into your salesperson like maybe your parents did that kind of stuff. I love that you kind of found your own path. Jessica Harling (02:39)Yeah, I really, I loved it. And the funny part is I didn’t know what my parents did for the longest time, my mom, my grandpa. I mean, they knew they were in design and I knew that every year when we had a garage sale, we’d be selling a lot of fabric and we had bolts and bolts of it in their garage. But before I got into the industry, I really didn’t know anything about it and wasn’t that kid that was going into the shop and stuff. So I learned everything from Will Hanke – WTMP (02:48)You Okay. Jessica Harling (03:08)the incredible reps in this industry and of course the knowledge that my family brought to it. But that’s, you know, all been generated from working in the industry. Will Hanke – WTMP (03:19)Right, right. So tell me who your target market is for behind behind the design. Jessica Harling (03:25)Yeah, well we certainly love window covering companies still. So we work with a lot of them, but I’ve tried to expand it to the interior design trades. So we work with whole handful of interior designers, flooring, paint companies, anything that’s gonna beautify a home or even work with commercial companies. But usually our clients are starting to hit over that million dollar mark. They might be approaching two million. and we help them get and scale to that $10 million mark or wherever their goal is towards that. Will Hanke – WTMP (03:55)Okay. Okay, that’s a great niche. They have enough revenue to make changes, get things done. And also at a million, you’re probably to the point where you kind of have to get your SOPs in place. In a lot of places, they probably haven’t done that. And somehow they’re still selling a million dollars a year, which is insane. Jessica Harling (04:10)Yes. Yep. Yeah, absolutely. And it’s just so fun working with those business owners and teams. You we’re not just working with the owner. So everyone is on the same page with those processes because they’re the ones executing on it. So they need to get behind it. Will Hanke – WTMP (04:31)Yeah. Right, right, very good. So how do you position yourself in the eyes of your customers? Jessica Harling (04:41)Yeah, I’m big on business development and one of the things that even, you my clients have commented on is that I have friends everywhere. And so part of working with Behind the Design is a holistic view of everything in their business. mean, literally we’ve helped with restructures where they thought they were going out of business and they had half a million in debt and we flipped it all around, got them profitable, put structures in place, hired a bunch of people, them all. So whatever the problem is, we’re there to tackle it. And I know you’re big fan of Traction by Gina Wickman. It’s one of my favorite books. And so for anyone that loves that too, we are the integrators. That’s what we do. We take your ideas, your vision, and we come up with a plan and a pathway that makes sense for everyone in the company and how to execute it. And then we help you do that. Will Hanke – WTMP (05:35)Love it. Every visionary needs an integrator, right? That’s great. Yeah, yeah, that’s awesome. As a business owner, we have way too many ideas, and we really need somebody to say yes or no or let’s table that, right? Or else we just have tons of ideas for the most part. Jessica Harling (05:38)Yes. It’s for you. Mm Thank That’s right. That’s right. And sometimes to have no idea of like how to actually implement it, like might be so innovative that it hasn’t been done before. how do we create, how do we engineer something to make it happen? And that’s what we love to do. We like to take those ideas and then build the foundation around it. Will Hanke – WTMP (06:16)Yeah, yeah, awesome. So I went back and looked on my website. It looks like you were on episode 21 of ours, and we talked a lot about hiring. So today, we’re going to switch it up a little bit and talk more about sales and lead handling, that kind of stuff, so that when the phone rings, what do you do, right? So let’s talk about that. When a lead comes in, what really is the first step that a business should take to ensure Jessica Harling (06:38)you Will Hanke – WTMP (06:44)that it’s managed effectively and obviously moves towards a sale. Jessica Harling (06:49)Yeah, you know, this may sound really simple, but you have to engage in some exciting, passionate, bubbly way, whether they are walking into your showroom or they’re calling you. It is so amazing. I’ve walked into so many showrooms where the associate is just sitting there and they don’t even say hi when you walk in or they don’t even look up. And so my rule of thumb always in managing a showroom was someone walks in the door, you stand up and you go greet them. And if they don’t need you, you can hover and go in another area, but you need to give that big warm welcome. Thank you so much for joining, know, coming in here. Not give them five minutes and then maybe you’ll approach them. Will Hanke – WTMP (07:33)Yeah, I like that. I listened to a phone call today from one of our clients and the phone was answered, I’ll role play here, ABC Blinds. And that’s all they said, right? They’re like, what do you want? Jessica Harling (07:44)Right? Yeah, you interrupted me. Yeah. Will Hanke – WTMP (07:51)Yeah. So I think having something in place, like you said, be excited about it. And I guess it probably gets a little bit monotonous if you’re the one on the ladder doing the installs and the phones are ringing. I can see it being a little bit of a frustration, but there’s probably ways to handle something like Jessica Harling (08:11)Yeah, I mean, you gotta assume that that’s your next big… break your big deal, you know, they could spend $100 ,000 with you. You have no idea. And I had that exact example happen when I was working in the family business. We were within a kitchen and bath showroom, very large in the Chicago area. And they in the area have this reputation for not being warm and fuzzy. You know, you don’t as a consumer walk in and like get incredible service. It’s because they’re more to the trade, but they like literally will ignore you. you when you walk in. And there was a woman that came and strolled into my section of the showroom and I stood right up. I was even training someone. I was like, all right, perfect example. Let’s stand up and greet her. And I go over and she’s like, Will Hanke – WTMP (08:55)Yeah, yeah. Jessica Harling (08:59)not a single person. I’ve been here for an hour’s greeted me.” And I was like, Whoa, well, so sorry. Let me help you now. And she goes off. She was like, that is not service. I have so much money. I could fly to Timbuktu and back in a day. And it would be, you know, like I’d buy the store. And she went off. And I was like, well, Will Hanke – WTMP (09:03)You Jessica Harling (09:23)I can help with the draperies, I can’t help you with the kitchen and bath, I’m sorry. She’s like, no, you are gonna help me with the kitchen and bath. You’re gonna follow me around and write down the things that I want and you’re gonna hand it over to whoever needs to do anything. So she was pissed. And so we were walking around and in the kitchen and bath showroom, the manager sees me and the owner was there too. They’re like, what is Jessica doing in our neck of the woods consulting client? Will Hanke – WTMP (09:26)Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yes. Jessica Harling (09:51)So I’m waving them over behind her back and everything and they come over. She gave him peace of her mind, but she then came back the next day a little bit more calm with her husband. And he, she was like, I just want to introduce you to the woman that helped me. And it ended up being the largest sale in the company’s history, what she bought. And I was taken out to dinner because of it. Like it was a big deal, all because I said hi and I smiled. So you gotta have that excitement. You have to have that love for what you’re doing or it’s gonna come across that way. It’s going to come across that you don’t wanna be there. Will Hanke – WTMP (10:31)Great story, yeah. And like you said, it turned into a huge deal. yeah, answering your phone every single time or greeting people when they come in. my gosh, it’s so huge. Yeah. All right. Jessica Harling (10:41)So important and to have a method for it. You know, you need to be the person that’s in the know. You’re the voice and the face of the company. So their first impression is you picking up that phone. Will Hanke – WTMP (10:53)That’s Yep. Yep. I’ve even heard some sales training where you get yourself excited, you smile, you know, all these different things before you make a call or something like that. So I think those things work, right? I mean, they do for me at least. Jessica Harling (11:05)I’m good. Yeah, we had at the family business, put little smiley face stickers on everyone’s phone handle. So every time they went to pick it up, they could smile and remember, you know, turn it on. Will Hanke – WTMP (11:20)Yeah, yeah, that’s great. Well, we talked about showrooms. Let’s talk about the other side, which most window treatment companies do, I think, and that’s the in -home consultation. So what are some key strategies for doing those successfully with potential clients? Jessica Harling (11:31)You know what? Yeah, I think a big part of it does come back to a process. If getting the lead coming in is part of the emotional side, then taking them through the actual appointment process should then seal the deal. And when you’re thinking about it, that customer on the other side, putting yourself in their shoes, they are gonna want to be comfortable with someone. They’re gonna want confidence in their decision. And if you give any sort of impression through that sales appointment that you are not comfortable with what you’re selling, or you’re not confident in yourself, or you’re not explaining all of the things that could go wrong or right with this product, like if you don’t do all those things, then you’re gonna have a hard time getting that customer to buy from you. That’s why it’s gonna feel like a chase versus if you had a process in place. and you follow that every single time, your close rate would go up, your engagement with your customers and your repeat customers are gonna go up. And so even if you don’t follow a particular method, come up with your own process for it because that is going to consistently build better results. Will Hanke – WTMP (12:54)Yeah, yeah, very important to have that. And of course, after, know, whether it is somebody that came into the showroom, you went to their home, maybe you didn’t close the deal there. What are some good, like best practices for following up with those leads? Jessica Harling (13:11)Well, follow -up is huge. It takes, and I’m sure you know these statistics, the overall concept of someone buying, it’s gonna take seven to 12 touch points to get to that purchase. And so if you, as one touch point, called and set up the appointment, that’s one. If you call and confirm the day before, that’s another touch point. So you’re on your third touch point before you get to your appointment. And if they’re not buying that day, you’ve got at least five more to go to get into that seven to 12 range where so many people, they literally drop the ball on the followup. One of my favorite things is to shop the competition, to stay relevant, to understand what tactics are happening and such. And one of my early ones that I did shopping for, three companies came out within three days of each other. This was about 10 years ago. not a single company ever followed up with me. Not one email, not one person put me on an email campaign that was like, here, we have this discount going on. Nothing. Three companies in the same area did nothing to follow up with me. And I told them all I was shopping around and getting other competitor quotes. I didn’t tell them no, I didn’t close the book. So, That is the power of follow -up. You’re just gonna increase your close rate tenfold if you continue afterwards. Because your best shot on an in -home appointment is a 50 -50 chance. Yes or no? They’re moving forward. But if after the appointment you continue to follow up when your competitors aren’t, you’re increasing that chance to 65 -75. Will Hanke – WTMP (14:58)Yeah. And those follow ups don’t have to be like you physically doing something, right? Like in our lead boomerang system, we’ve got an automation for a lot of our clients where they follow up. Maybe it’s a, they send a video on, you know, on Shades or something, and then they send a case study. They drop a voicemail on the client’s phone. There’s other ways to do it besides you just have to pick up and call them back, right? Jessica Harling (15:23)That’s right, that’s right. And my favorite is automation because you can use your phone calls for that personal touch and you can also, which people don’t realize, you can make your automation sound personalized. It doesn’t have to sound like a robot wrote it, you know. So if you just take the time to think about what you would want to expect, again, going in the customer’s shoes, then yeah, automation is going to be your friend because you can set it and forget it, you know, and still get that. Will Hanke – WTMP (15:37)Sure. Yeah. Jessica Harling (15:53)result of people contacting you. Will Hanke – WTMP (15:56)Yeah, very, very much agree. So let’s talk about sales, right? Some things you can do with your sales team if you have a sales team or if it’s yourself doing the sales. What are some different training techniques, things like that that you can do or provide to ensure some great customer service? Jessica Harling (16:20)Yeah, I think in sales it’s hard to get away from role playing and I know it’s the biggest eye roll for everyone. It was something that I hated particularly, like I didn’t want to do it. But the thing about role playing is it’s just practice. And so if you have in your, you know, sales meetings some ability to do a role play, it will help. I know that you just had LuAnn Nigara on talking about objections. And so one of my favorite role plays to do about objections is you guys know the objections. You know they’re gonna say the price is too high. You know it. You know they’re gonna say the spouse needs to talk to whoever. You know that they’re not ready. So come up with a script. Come up with a phrase that you’re gonna use every time those objections come up. But the problem is so many people go, what a surprise. They don’t like the cost of it. Shocker. Okay, well how are you gonna overcome that? You have time to practice. You have time to think about it. So just put together a script, try that role play, and then when it happens on the appointment, you’re gonna be so calm, cool, collected that they’re gonna feel that from you and go, man, these people got it. They had it answered for every question. Will Hanke – WTMP (17:16)you Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I I’m in a program that helps with things like sales. And one of the things they do is the role play. And I’m the same way I used to be like, God, you I’m not ready, you know, but the the guy that was running it was successful, multimillion dollar business. Right. And he would say, OK, let’s just role play this ring ring. And you’re like, hello. You know, but it is ultimately even if no matter how bad Jessica Harling (18:04)Alright. Will Hanke – WTMP (18:09)you do going through the role play, you’re still going to learn something from it because most likely they’re going to give you feedback on what you did say. Jessica Harling (18:15)Yeah, and so many times people just practice in the appointment itself. And so that’s why you’re fumbling over your words. That’s why you feel like you said the wrong thing, because it’s the first time it’s coming out of your mouth ever. So don’t let it be the first time. Even if you’re practicing in front of the mirror by yourself and no one has to see you, but you’ve got to practice it out loud. Maybe it’s near car drive to the next appointment. You have to talk it out loud. Will Hanke – WTMP (18:43)Yeah, yeah, I even had a I had purchased at one point some flashcards of sales objections, right? Okay, customer says price is too high and you flip it over and you know, there’s the answer or what you should probably respond. I can see that being very helpful. You know, like you said, list down the objections, you know, you’re already going to get and then have some sort of at least maybe not pre -programmed answer, but have something in mind of what to say, right? Jessica Harling (18:49)Mm. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Will Hanke – WTMP (19:14)Be a little bit prepared at least, right? Jessica Harling (19:16)You’re doing it every day. Again, it’s not a surprise. Will Hanke – WTMP (19:21)Yeah, yeah. So another thing that we did recently was we had Sandra VanSickel on and we talked a lot about work rooms. She was fantastic. So tell me about best practices around creating and maintaining relationships with work rooms. Jessica Harling (19:32)huh. Yeah, well, any sort of vendor relationship, you need to treat that as sacred as your customer relationship, especially a workroom that is getting you the goods that you’re selling. And so to help maintain and develop some of those relationships, I would first start by getting involved in the design industry to like find those workrooms that you can work with. Maybe you’ve always used the same one, but… you can search out others for backup when the one is too busy. So to maintain those relationships, a big part of it is giving and taking and communication. If you send them work, well then make sure your work orders are pristine for them. And they are responsive to any questions that you have or they have for you about your work. That’s gonna help build those relationships. Again, it goes back to process. We want to make sure to a streamlined process in between that communication, like maybe you meet biweekly and you go through what open projects you have, or maybe on a quarterly basis, you review any errors that came through for the workroom. So all of those things can help enhance the relationship if you have a solid process and keep those communication lines open. Will Hanke – WTMP (21:04)Right. And working backwards to the sales side of things, letting your sales team know, you know, the at least the top level things about the workroom, what their turnaround time is, that kind of stuff, maybe giving them a tour or something like that so that they can talk about it in a very positive way. Jessica Harling (21:23)Yeah, that’s a great point because I remember when I had a sales team go to the workroom and they could actually see the work being done. Their level of respect and their level of excitement came out when they were talking about it with people. They lit up because they’re like, wow, the work that we were able to see. And they do it by their hands. You know, that’s what’s unbelievable. They’re literally crafting this stuff by hand versus a big manufacturer doing it at a factory. So. You know, when you think about that, really helps enhance the value of what you’re selling to your customers. Will Hanke – WTMP (21:57)Yeah, yeah, very much so. It always really helps open their eyes, I think, to to what’s going on behind the scenes. Right. Jessica Harling (22:04)Yeah, absolutely. And even to develop a relationship with the upholsterers, with the seamstresses, to have them understand who they’re working for or towards with their client projects. I know working with workrooms that they just love to see the end picture. Sometimes they don’t get to see it. Once it’s out of their hands and the designer takes it and installs it, it doesn’t get back to them the beauty of their work. So just simply by… sharing photos after installation will help enhance that relationship. Will Hanke – WTMP (22:37)wow. Great tip. I love that. That’s a great idea. So let’s talk about that leveraging technology. Right. So we’ve got people in workrooms that are doing physical work, but there is a way to kind of, you know, move your business in a way of technology, such as sharing on Instagram or sharing with the workroom. So what role does technology play in in our world that that you see on a normal basis? Jessica Harling (23:05)Yeah, well, the workrooms that we work with on the consulting side, a lot of the work is based around CRMs that we can implement and help them manage their workflow. And for example, one of the big ones that we’ll utilize can have the work order all pulled up. You can quote in the same module, you know, and… have some of those efficiencies to get the pricing right because that’s a big pain point for the workrooms is take so much time to quote, take so much time to get those over for an interior designer that may not even be doing the project. So by utilizing those sorts of platforms, you can save yourself time. You can also save yourself from redoing that estimate a bunch of times. Like if you’re doing it manually. and it’s not spitting it out from a computer system, then it’s that continuous time to redo your work. And gosh, who wants to do your work all over again? So it’s a lot of time saving for sure, which then goes into cost, because you can then spend time selling or connecting or project managing whatever your role is. Will Hanke – WTMP (24:08)Yeah. Right. Right. And I know you mentioned automations. Our lead boomerang system, you know, it’s based on a lot of automations of things such as touch points. Right. You mentioned touch points as soon as somebody signs up, maybe send them a 24 hour notice that you’re you’re going to be there tomorrow so that they’re home. You know, those kinds of things are really nice and simple to set up to. Jessica Harling (24:41)Yeah, and I love those because again, like people are all about the now, the immediacy of everything. And with custom, that’s hard, right? There’s four 12 week turnaround times on some products. And so to have them wait after they were all excited and they purchased is such a bummer. But if you can utilize all of those automations and those checkpoints in between with the customer, You keep them engaged as you go and it doesn’t get this huge roller coaster of emotions because you just went radio silent on them. Will Hanke – WTMP (25:18)Yeah, I guess in a perfect world, a workroom that also engaged in some technology would be cool. Like, you know, they take pictures of your stuff halfway through, or here’s Jane working on your draperies, that kind of stuff. That’d be pretty neat, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s just getting somebody to actually do it, right? Jessica Harling (25:32)Love that. Yeah, those are great ideas. Will Hanke – WTMP (25:39)Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. So OK, after the appointment, maybe even after the install, we need to get some customer feedback, right? What are some different strategies for collecting that feedback and getting it out to the world? Jessica Harling (25:59)Well, I think a big part of it is you have to ask multiple times, multiple different ways. You are not just gonna get a bulk of your responses in one way. So yes, you are gonna have your installer give something to them at the end of your process that asks them for a review. Then you could have someone in the office contact them, making sure that they’re satisfied. Asking for a review you can send an email follow -up asking for a review So it is gonna take a campaign and is gonna take multiple attempts Just like you’re gonna have to do follow -ups to close your deal. It’s no different. And so it’s just people You know, they just don’t do it right away and you don’t want to overwhelm them either for example You know if you are giving them a final closeout email and you’re like Will Hanke – WTMP (26:43)Yeah. Yeah. Jessica Harling (26:53)Here’s the final invoice. Here’s a review request. Also call us if you need anything. Like if you’re overwhelming them with too many calls to action in one email, they’re not gonna do all of them. They’re gonna do one of them at best. So you gotta be strategic with your review asking placement so you’re not getting muddled against everything else that is going around. Will Hanke – WTMP (27:16)Yeah, yeah, very important. We have bought a new refrigerator about a month ago from Lowe’s and the guys came in here and they put it all together and plugged it in and driving away. They couldn’t have been gone five, 10 minutes. And I got a call from somebody at Lowe’s. Hey, how did the install go? Everything, you know, any problems, anything like that? I was like, my gosh, this is crazy. Cool. You know, it was it was really impressive that that they had that kind of a system in place. Jessica Harling (27:43)Yeah, that is amazing when you can check in after. And I’m a big proponent of that in our processes, whether it’s someone in the office or your designer or whoever, someone has to follow up with the customer after the installer was there. Because so many times, the installer is the last impression. And the installers, a lot of times, they’re very skillfully crafted. They know what they’re doing. But they’re sometimes like doctors. They don’t have the best bedside manner. And so if you want that as your last impression of what that brand and reputation is gonna be, maybe you can control it a little bit more if yourself as the manager, one of your sales team or someone in the office then follows up. I am always a big believer in that because then you can warm it up, know, put a fighting button to the experience. Will Hanke – WTMP (28:33)Right. Great point. Yeah, there’s a those guys are very smart when it comes to installing, but maybe they’re not great salespeople, right? And they then they don’t need to be. But yeah, but having that piece in place really does just overall makes a better customer experience. Yeah. So let’s talk real quick about business growth. So for our for our listeners out there, Jessica Harling (28:44)Yeah, exactly. Will Hanke – WTMP (29:01)What are some key strategies for planning and managing growth in the business and how can companies prepare for scaling? I know that’s an easy question, right? Jessica Harling (29:11)I think the first thing is an awareness thing before some key strategies and the awareness part of it is as you grow, your business changes and your people changes, it goes through different cycles. And oftentimes when we get approached on the consulting side and we get into the business, there’s so much regret as to like an apologies, as to like, where they’re at in business and why they have to have a consultant to help them to the next level. And I always like to remind everyone, what got you here is your processes. You are at a place where you’re at above a million dollars. That is so difficult for businesses to do. And especially if you’re above that, two, three million, and then regretting everything that came before, no, no. We gotta rework that that mindset because… Will Hanke – WTMP (30:04)Right. Jessica Harling (30:08)Businesses do go in cycles. So you’re gonna get this pit like I call it in the million dollar to two million dollar mark then between like four and six million and then about eight nine million in order to get to your big next levels and so just know that your Processes are gonna change at those different milestones and it’s on purpose so that you can get to the next level But what you did prior to that is not bad It’s what led you here. So we can take some of that and then just massage it so it makes sense moving forward. Will Hanke – WTMP (30:44)Yeah, yeah, good problem to have, I guess, right? If you’re growing and you’re not sure what to do. But it’s not unusual for everything to break when you hit certain points. Jessica Harling (30:53)Exactly. And so when that breakdown occurs, I would say to the next point is with strategy, start to identify it. You if you’re trying to figure out a process, just observe it. You know, before I created what I call the life, the client process, what I did is I observed over a 90 day period and I watched what the file did before, you know, our technology. And so literally I would star a file. Will Hanke – WTMP (31:19)Yeah Jessica Harling (31:22)and I would watch it from every stage and who hit it and how long they had it for and why they had it for that long and I just kept watching it and we tracked it and when we got the data then we could see where the pitfalls were, know, between our steps. Why is this taking two weeks? It should take three days. How are we gonna solve that? So you can’t change a process without first looking at what you currently have. Will Hanke – WTMP (31:34)Yeah. Jessica Harling (31:49)because you might be changing something that’s working and so you have to really do a good deep dive first to figure out what is the problem and a lot of times, actually 9 times out of 10, 9 and a half times out of 10, what you think is the problem is actually the symptom. So if you don’t do enough analysis, if you don’t dive deep, then all you’re gonna be doing is fixing the face value problem and not getting to the root of it. Will Hanke – WTMP (32:15)Yeah, yeah. I also, I really like that you mentioned, you know, something that should take a couple hours, you know, takes a couple of weeks. I think that’s part of those businesses that are, you know, over a million where they’re starting to figure out how can we start to increase efficiency, right? And start to figure out, okay, this should take this long. Let’s watch a flag if there’s, you know, more than 10 % variant and something like that. Those things are really important to continue to grow as well. Jessica Harling (32:44)Yeah, and you touch on a good point because I was talking to a client about this today. He is in a larger business that has four to six turnaround times, but his dad who just he bought out his dad is used to like two, three week turnaround times because he was the only person doing it. So the day it came in was the day it went out or the day he sold it was the day he ordered it. And that doesn’t happen in bigger. industries or bigger companies and so that’s where process then becomes critical so we can shave it down to the two weeks or the three weeks and still have all the checkpoints but there is a difference there you’re right. Will Hanke – WTMP (33:25)Yeah, yeah. And then you start talking about things like cash flow, right? And how long do you want that money tied up? All kinds of stuff we could get into. But I appreciate the comments around the business growth. I think a lot of our listeners are in that scale mode, right? And looking for tips and ideas and ways to get to the next level. Jessica Harling (33:45)Yeah, it is so much like a puzzle. You just have to have the patience to dig into it. Will Hanke – WTMP (33:51)Yeah, yeah. Well, listen, Jessica, as always, I do appreciate your time. I appreciate your expertise. You’ve helped us a lot in sales and we touched a little bit on processes and stuff, which are always going to be a huge part of any business, no matter the size, right? I think they just change as time goes on. But thank you for your insights today. I do appreciate it. Jessica Harling (34:16)Thank you Will, it’s been pleasure. Will Hanke – WTMP (34:18)Yeah, no problem. So if you are listening and you like this episode or you like any of the other episodes If you haven’t checked out jessica’s previous one go back and listen to that for the hiring side of things She’s got some great tips in there as well. Make sure to subscribe to our podcast. We’d love to have you alerted when new episodes come out, which is every two weeks and once again Jessica Thank you so much for your time. I hope you have a great day Thank you Jessica Harling (34:44)Thanks, Will.