No Small Endeavor with Lee C. Camp

This is our unabridged interview with Marisa Renee Lee. How do we learn to live with grief when healing takes longer than we hoped? Author and advocate Marisa Renee Lee learned about grief early, watching her mother move through years of illness before losing her to cancer. Years later, after becoming a mother herself and developing long COVID, Marisa found herself facing a new kind of uncertainty. One that reshaped her body, her work, and her understanding of hope. In this conversation, she reflects on grief, chronic illness, faith, joy, and the healing that becomes possible when we stop pretending we can carry everything alone. Key ideas in this episode: Choose Realistic Hope Hope does not have to mean pretending everything will be fine; it can mean committing to the next faithful action toward a better place. Make Space to Heal Marisa challenges a productivity-driven culture by reminding us that grief, illness, and uncertainty require time, attention, and real support. Ask for Help Healing becomes possible when we name our limits honestly and let other people carry pieces of the burden with us. Let Joy Do Its Work Laughter, beauty, concerts, television, family stories, and small daily pleasures can create room for the brain and body to process pain. Honor the Body’s Grief Loss is not just emotional; grief can affect the brain, weaken the immune system, and make ordinary tasks feel impossible. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Marisa Renee Lee⁠ The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How do we learn to live with grief when healing takes longer than we hoped? Author and advocate Marisa Renee Lee learned about grief early, watching her mother move through years of illness before losing her to cancer. Years later, after becoming a mother herself and developing long COVID, Marisa found herself facing a new kind of uncertainty. One that reshaped her body, her work, and her understanding of hope. In this conversation, she reflects on grief, chronic illness, faith, joy, and the healing that becomes possible when we stop pretending we can carry everything alone. Key ideas in this episode: Choose Realistic Hope Hope does not have to mean pretending everything will be fine; it can mean committing to the next faithful action toward a better place. Make Space to Heal Marisa challenges a productivity-driven culture by reminding us that grief, illness, and uncertainty require time, attention, and real support. Ask for Help Healing becomes possible when we name our limits honestly and let other people carry pieces of the burden with us. Let Joy Do Its Work Laughter, beauty, concerts, television, family stories, and small daily pleasures can create room for the brain and body to process pain. Honor the Body’s Grief Loss is not just emotional; grief can affect the brain, weaken the immune system, and make ordinary tasks feel impossible. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Marisa Renee Lee⁠⁠ The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if burnout isn’t failure, but an invitation to become more fully human? Back in 2023, Anglican priest and author Tish Harrison Warren hit a wall. She was exhausted by her work on faith and public discourse at the New York Times, and discouraged by the constant controversy that came hand in hand with writing about religion in a public forum. So she left. What followed was a 2 year exploration of burnout in modern culture, and her most recent book: ⁠What Grows in Weary Lands⁠. In it, she explores the wisdom of early Christian teaching, and the many ways that embracing limits, difficulty, and the “arduous good” can lead to deeper meaning and authentic human flourishing. Key Ideas: -Embrace the Arduous Good: The most meaningful parts of life (relationships, faith, vocation,) are often difficult, and their difficulty is part of their inherent value. -Grow Roots Through Limits: Depth comes not from endless options but from accepting constraints and staying present long enough for roots to form. -Practice Faith as Craft: Like any meaningful discipline, faith is shaped through daily habits and persistence. -Walk Toward the Desert: Seasons of burnout and spiritual dryness are not failures but invitations to deeper growth and transformation. -Choose the Local Act of Love: Real flourishing happens in embodied, everyday acts of care, not abstract ideals or grand ambition. ⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Tish Harrison Warren⁠ ⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices