No Small Endeavor with Lee C. Camp

This is our unabridged interview with Belle Tindall-Riley. Institutional religion is off the menu for many these days. But walk to the edge of the Glastonbury music festival, and you'll find a packed field people waiting an hour in line to buy crystals, get tarot readings, and have a sound bath from a healer with singing bowls. Our religious impulses didn’t go away. They just got transferred. It seems, consumerism and individualism are so deeply ingrained that we now pay for membership in whatever community we subscribe to. We buy their trinkets, their supplements, and their merch as symbols of our belonging. Dr. Belle Tindall-Riley takes the ache underneath all of that seriously. A biblical scholar who spent four years of her doctorate on a single passage, and who grew up in rural Wales lying to her classmates about going to church, she reads each practice like manifesting, tarot, crystals, WitchTok for the true longing beneath it. She examines the limits of a spirituality that always tells you you're doing just fine. You'll come away asking questions of your own spirituality: does it ever tell me no? This is part one of The Ache: The Longing Modernity Couldn't Cure, a three-part No Small Endeavor series, recorded around the world from Oxford to the Isle of Skye, about the human ache that secularism can't explain and the new spiritualities that may not be able to fill it. Join No Small Endeavor on Patreon and get: Ad-free listening for both No Small Endeavor and The Subtext Monthly bonus content including our ongoing Cardinal Virtue Series and more Weekly reflections on a good life Access to live show videos Early access to live show tickets.  Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable This project was made possible through the support of a grant from Templeton World Charity Foundation, Inc funder DOI 501100011730) through grant ⁠https://doi.org/10.54224/35684⁠. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of Templeton World Charity Foundation, Inc. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Belle Tindall-Riley⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! SEEDS: Download the free ⁠SEEDS app⁠ and take one small step today: plant your first seed and see what God can grow. Tickets to Nov 22nd NSE Live in Nashville:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠ No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Institutional religion is off the menu for many these days. But walk to the edge of the Glastonbury music festival, and you'll find a packed field people waiting an hour in line to buy crystals, get tarot readings, and have a sound bath from a healer with singing bowls. Our religious impulses didn’t go away. They just got transferred. It seems, consumerism and individualism are so deeply ingrained that we now pay for membership in whatever community we subscribe to. We buy their trinkets, their supplements, and their merch as symbols of our belonging. Dr. Belle Tindall-Riley takes the ache underneath all of that seriously. A biblical scholar who spent four years of her doctorate on a single passage, and who grew up in rural Wales lying to her classmates about going to church, she reads each practice like manifesting, tarot, crystals, WitchTok for the true longing beneath it. She examines the limits of a spirituality that always tells you you're doing just fine. You'll come away asking questions of your own spirituality: does it ever tell me no? This is part one of The Ache: The Longing Modernity Couldn't Cure, a three-part No Small Endeavor series, recorded around the world from Oxford to the Isle of Skye, about the human ache that secularism can't explain and the new spiritualities that may not be able to fill it. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Belle Tindall-Riley Join No Small Endeavor on Patreon and get: Ad-free listening for both No Small Endeavor and The Subtext Monthly bonus content including our ongoing Cardinal Virtue Series and more Weekly reflections on a good life Access to live show videos Early access to live show tickets.  Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. This project was made possible through the support of a grant from Templeton World Charity Foundation, Inc funder DOI 501100011730) through grant ⁠https://doi.org/10.54224/35684⁠. The opinions expressed in this publication are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of Templeton World Charity Foundation, Inc. Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! SEEDS: Download the free SEEDS app and take one small step today: plant your first seed and see what God can grow. Tickets to Nov 22nd NSE Live in Nashville:⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week on The Subtext: Macklemore, Ed Sheeran, free speech, and the billionaire power behind the music business. Lee and Savannah unpack the controversy, looking to Dolly Parton as a guide. What happens when public outrage becomes a purity test? Is it all just “vanity politics,” or what are we actually doing about the things we say we care about? Things we mentioned in this episode: M*A*S*H* All in the Family Olivia Fox Cabane (on the science of charisma) on Armchair Expert The Charisma Myth by Olivia Fox Cabane Christ in the Rubble by Munther Isaac Munther Isaac on No Small Endeavor Dr. Queenie Johnson’s Analysis on what she calls “Vanity Politics” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Annie F. Downs. What's holding you back from your dreams? Annie F. Downs wants to help you diagnose and respond to that question. She says often what’s holding you back is rooted in something that was either stolen, killed, or destroyed.  In this conversation, the New York Times bestselling author and Lee talk about her new book, Don't Let That Hold You Back. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Annie F. Downs Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! SEEDS: Download the free SEEDS app and take one small step today: plant your first seed and see what God can grow. Tickets to Nov 22nd NSE Live in Nashville:⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's holding you back from your dreams? Annie F. Downs wants to help you diagnose and respond to that question. She says often what’s holding you back is rooted in something that was either stolen, killed, or destroyed.  In this conversation, the New York Times bestselling author and Lee talk about her new book, ⁠Don't Let That Hold You Back⁠. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Annie F. Downs⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! SEEDS: Download the free ⁠SEEDS app⁠ and take one small step today: plant your first seed and see what God can grow. Tickets to Nov 22nd NSE Live in Nashville:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.nashvillesymphony.org/nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Turns out, Gen Z is talking less, scrolling more, and forgetting how to be human. This week, Savannah and Lee unpack the surprising decline in everyday conversation and why talking to strangers actually matters. Then a listener’s question prompts them to revisit Nate Bargatze drama. Does calling in vs. calling out work with public figures?  And things get spicy when they dive into Meta’s $17 billion child-safety settlement, social media addiction, kids and algorithms, free speech, government regulation, and the complicated question of who gets to shape us online.  Tell us what you think! DM us on Instagram @thesubtextshow Things we mentioned in this episode: ⁠Gen Zs like me are speaking 451 words fewer every day – and I know why by Esme Gordon Craig⁠ ⁠Heather Holleman on No Small Endeavor⁠ ⁠Jemar Tisby on No Small Endeavor⁠ ⁠James Lawson on No Small Endeavor⁠ ⁠Free Speech Part 1 - The Subtext⁠ ⁠Free Speech Part 2 - The Subtext⁠ ⁠The Social Reckoning Trailer⁠ ⁠The Social Network⁠ Follow The Subtext: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Threads⁠ | ⁠X⁠ | ⁠YouTube⁠ | ⁠TikTok⁠ Follow Lee: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Twitter⁠ | ⁠Lee's Newsletter⁠ Follow Savannah: ⁠Instagram⁠ | ⁠Substack⁠ Join our Email List: ⁠nosmallendeavor.com⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Steve Cuss. Anxiety is contagious, and most of us catch it without noticing: from a tense meeting, a hard conversation, a parent, a group chat. After an emergency, an ER doctor pulled a young hospital chaplain aside and gave him some life-changing advice: anytime somebody's heart stops, first take your own pulse. He learned that, in order to help, he needs to first notice what’s going on inside of him. Steve Cuss is a pastor, leadership coach, and author of Managing Leadership Anxiety and The Expectation Gap. He spent a crucible year as a chaplain in a level one trauma center, attending more than 250 deaths, and has spent the decades since teaching leaders and families how anxiety is contagious and can be passed between people. In this conversation, rooted in systems theory, he gives you the practical version: how to tell when reactivity has hold of you, the five false needs that drive all humans, how to see anxiety in a room instead of catching it, and how to sort what is actually yours to carry from what is not. If you want to be the steady person for the people you love without going numb or over-functioning, this is the toolkit. KEY IDEAS Anxiety Is Contagious, and You Can See It Instead of Catching It Reactivity moves between people through proximity and repetition, and simply walking into the room intending to notice the pattern is often enough to keep you from picking it up. The Urge to Comfort Is Usually About Your Own Discomfort When someone says the foolish thing to a grieving friend, it is rarely callousness. It is a caregiver trying to make their own anxiety stop. The Five False Needs of Every Human Control, perfection, knowing the answer, being their for others when they’re hurting, approval Calm Is Not the Goal, and Sometimes It Is an Insult When the harm is systemic, outrage is the accurate response, and serenity in front of it signals that you have not understood what is happening. The Most Anxious Person in the Room Sets the Terms Whether they dominate the conversation or go silent, their reactivity quietly decides what everyone else is willing to say. Most of What Exhausts You Was Never Yours to Carry Sorting what is mine, what is theirs, and what belongs to God is less about detachment than about being free to love someone without needing to fix them. Self-Care Is a Means, Not an End Rest, retreat, and therapy exist to send you back into difficult work better able to do it, not to insulate you from it. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Steve Cuss Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! SEEDS: Download the free SEEDS app and take one small step today: plant your first seed and see what God can grow. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Anxiety is contagious, and most of us catch it without noticing: from a tense meeting, a hard conversation, a parent, a group chat. After an emergency, an ER doctor pulled a young hospital chaplain aside and gave him some life-changing advice: anytime somebody's heart stops, first take your own pulse. He learned that, in order to help, he needs to first notice what’s going on inside of him. Steve Cuss is a pastor, leadership coach, and author of⁠ Managing Leadership Anxiety⁠ and⁠ The Expectation Gap⁠. He spent a crucible year as a chaplain in a level one trauma center, attending more than 250 deaths, and has spent the decades since teaching leaders and families how anxiety is contagious and can be passed between people. In this conversation, rooted in systems theory, he gives you the practical version: how to tell when reactivity has hold of you, the five false needs that drive all humans, how to see anxiety in a room instead of catching it, and how to sort what is actually yours to carry from what is not. If you want to be the steady person for the people you love without going numb or over-functioning, this is the toolkit. KEY IDEAS Anxiety Is Contagious, and You Can See It Instead of Catching It Reactivity moves between people through proximity and repetition, and simply walking into the room intending to notice the pattern is often enough to keep you from picking it up. The Urge to Comfort Is Usually About Your Own Discomfort When someone says the foolish thing to a grieving friend, it is rarely callousness. It is a caregiver trying to make their own anxiety stop. The Five False Needs of Every Human Control, perfection, knowing the answer, being their for others when they’re hurting, approval Calm Is Not the Goal, and Sometimes It Is an Insult When the harm is systemic, outrage is the accurate response, and serenity in front of it signals that you have not understood what is happening. The Most Anxious Person in the Room Sets the Terms Whether they dominate the conversation or go silent, their reactivity quietly decides what everyone else is willing to say. Most of What Exhausts You Was Never Yours to Carry Sorting what is mine, what is theirs, and what belongs to God is less about detachment than about being free to love someone without needing to fix them. Self-Care Is a Means, Not an End Rest, retreat, and therapy exist to send you back into difficult work better able to do it, not to insulate you from it. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Steve Cuss⁠ Thank you to our sponsors: The Wonder Project: Subscriber support makes more great content like I Gotta Ask with Annie F. Downs possible. The Wonder Project subscription on Prime Video is available in the U.S. for $8.99/month or $89.99/year after a 7-day free trial. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠IGottaAsk.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to learn more! SEEDS: Download the free SEEDS app and take one small step today: plant your first seed and see what God can grow. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable. No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices