On Humans

History is full of wars. Why? Is war driven by fear? Greed? Revenge? Ambitious leaders? Is it rooted deep in human nature—or does it emerge only under particular social conditions? And what do we learn if we change the angle from wars to non-wars? What lessons emerge from a study of all the periods and regions where war did not take place? My guest in this two-part mini-series is Douglas P. Fry, an anthropologist who has spent decades studying these questions. He is also a returning guest, and one of the first scholars ever to appear on this podcast.In Part II of our conversation, we will return to the topic of our episode from years back: the origins of war in prehistory. In this first part, however, we take a very different approach. We discuss lessons from modernity, with our topics ranging from the quest for peace after WWII to the societies in the Brazilian Amazon and Indigenous North America.What makes former enemies trust one another? What roles are played by equality, trade, or a new shared enemy? And how can cycles of fear, retaliation, and revenge be reversed without simply surrendering to aggression?At a time when war once again dominates the news, these questions could hardly be more urgent. But they also point towards a part of the human story that is too easily forgotten: our capacity not only to make war, but to understand it—and to build peace that lasts.Enjoy!FACT-CHECKINGMy wording on Ukraine giving up its nuclear arsenal in exchange for "security guarantees" is slightly stronger than the formal language of the Budapest Memorandum, which talked of “security assurances” rather than legally binding security guarantees.If you notice a factual error in this conversation, please get in touch via Substack or the form below. LINKSFry's 2026 book: Advanced Introduction to Conflict ResolutionSupport: ⁠Patreon.com/OnHumans⁠Articles & newsletter: ⁠OnHumans.Substack.com⁠Get in touch: ⁠https://forms.gle/h5wcmefuwvD6asos8⁠Music credit: Aleksey Chistilin (Lexin_Music) via Pixabay.NAMES MENTIONEDDouglas P. Fry | Geneviève Souillac | Jean Monnet | Konrad Adenauer | Mahatma Gandhi | Edward Westermarck | Charles E. Osgood | Brian Ferguson | Eleanor Roosevelt | Vladimir Putin KEY WORDSDouglas P. Fry | peace studies | conflict studies | war studies | peace and conflict studies | anthropology of war | anthropology of peace | war and peace | causes of war | origins of war | human nature and war | peacebuilding | conflict resolution | peace systems | lasting peace | international cooperation | nonviolence | revenge | reciprocity | negative reciprocity | deterrence | security dilemma | arms race | nuclear weapons | nuclear disarmament | Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons | TPNW | Budapest Memorandum | United Nations | UN peacekeeping | Blue Helmets | UN Security Council | international law | global governance | World War II | Second World War | post-war peace | European integration | Jean Monnet | European Coal and Steel Community | Switzerland | Nordic peace | Åland Islands dispute | League of Nations | Upper Xingu peace system | Indigenous peace systems | Haudenosaunee Confederacy | Iroquois Confederacy | Great League of Peace | GRIT strategy | Graduated Reciprocation in Tension Reduction | Charles E. Osgood | Edward Westermarck | Ukraine war | Russia–Ukraine war

Was India once an affluent empire, later impoverished by British colonisation? Or was India never rich to begin with? More generally, what does historical data on wages and other economic indicators tell us about the broader story of the making of the modern world – a world with great affluence, but where much of the riches are still concentrated in the Western world.For over 20 years now, Stephen Broadberry and Bishnupriya Gupta have worked to measure the evolution of global living standards from the medieval period onwards. In this episode, they begin by discussing a comparison between the historical economies of India and Britain. We then continue to a broader story of the living standards of the pre-industrial world. We also discuss different theories of the “Great Divergence” between the West and the rest of the world. We finish by turning our attention to the future, asking if the 21st century will be remembered as the Asian century.This episode concludes the five-part series on the making of the modern world, produced by CAGE Research Centre and On Humans. LINKS AND REFERENCESDo you prefer reading to listening? You can find⁠ a summarised essay ⁠of this conversation, with a bibliography, at our series page:⁠ ⁠https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/centres/cage/news/podcasts/⁠⁠ NAMES MENTIONEDKenneth Pomeranz | Angus Maddison | Daron Acemoglu | James Robinson | Nico Voigtländer | Hans-Joachim Voth | Debin Ma | Robert Allen | Joel Mokyr KEYWORDSEconomics | History | Global Economic History | Industrial Revolution | Indian history | Imperial history | East India Company | Emperor Akbar | Colonisation | Historical GDP estimates | Historical living standard estimates | Wage history | History of labour | Social history | Comparative development | State capacity | Malthusian trap | History of Technology INFOGuests: Bishnupriya Gupta (University of Warwick) and Stephen Broadberry (University of Oxford) ⁠⁠⁠Contact: ⁠greatdivergencepod@gmail.com

The tech gap between China and the West is closing fast. But why did the land that invented paper and gunpowder ever fall behind? Debin Ma is the world’s leading economic historian of East Asia. In this fourth episode of our Great Divergence series, he approaches the making of the modern world from an eastern perspective. We discuss why China fell behind, why Japan modernised early, and why East Asia has experienced so many economic miracles. We also discuss China’s recent transformation – a transformation that Ma has witnessed firsthand. LINKS AND REFERENCESDo you prefer reading to listening? You can find⁠ a summarised essay ⁠of this conversation, with a bibliography, at our series page:⁠ ⁠https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/centres/cage/news/podcasts/⁠⁠GREAT DIVERGENCE: THE MAKING OF THE MODERN WORLDThis episode is part of a series produced by Warwick University’s⁠ ⁠CAGE Research Centre⁠⁠ in collaboration with⁠ ⁠On Humans⁠, searching for explanations to why Western Europe and North America emerged as the most affluent and technologically advanced regions of the modern world. Guided by six expert guests, including a winner of the 2025 Nobel Prize in economics, we approach this topic with balance and breadth, exploring everything from colonialism and fossil fuels to science and technology. 1 | Why the West? Colonies, fossil fuels, and lessons from China (Kenneth Pomeranz)2 | Why did so many inventions come from Europe? (Joel Mokyr)3 | Why did the Industrial Revolution happen in Britain? (Robert Allen) 4 | A view from the East: China, Japan, and the other paths to prosperity (Debin Ma)5 | The big picture: Measuring the origins of the modern world (Bishnupriya Gupta and Stephen Broadberry)NAMES MENTIONEDJoseph Needham | Kenneth Pomeranz | Joel Mokyr | Robert Allen | Francis Fukuyama | Jared Rubin | Yin Weiwen | Kaiser Kuo | Deng Xiaoping | Yasheng Huang KEYWORDSEconomics | History | Global Economic History | Industrial Revolution | Chinese history | Japanese history | Developmental Economics | Needham Puzzle | Needham Question | Qianlong Emperor | Macartney embassy | Meiji Japan | Iwakura mission | Age heaping | Comparative development | State capacity | Modern fiscal state | History of taxation | Industrial Policy | History of Technology | Human capitalINFOGuest: Debin Ma (Fudan University and All Souls College, University of Oxford) ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Host: Ilari Mäkelä (⁠⁠⁠On Humans⁠⁠⁠)Contact: ⁠greatdivergencepod@gmail.com

Why was industrial modernity born in Europe and not, say, China? This is one of the most consequential questions about the origins of the modern world. Yet asking “why Europe” can mislead. The Industrial Revolution was not a European event. It was a British event.So why was the steam engine invented in Britain, and not France or Italy?Oxford professor Robert Allen has worked for decades trying to understand this question. Allen believes that to understand the path to modernity, we must forget grand generalisations about the West. Instead, he asks us to zoom in on two very specific dynamics that shaped the British economy in the 1700s: cheap fuel and expensive workers. Together, they jolted Britain into a path where ever more work was streamlined with the help of machines and fossil fuels — a path that we are still walking on, with AI and robotics simply the latest sightings on this long march of modernity.In this episode, we discuss the surprising revelations that led Allen to his theory. We discuss the reasons that British wages were high, and we discuss recent scholarship suggesting that this wasn’t the case–or at least, was not the cause for the Industrial Revolution. We also discuss the more humane side of wages, tracing the history of worker wellbeing from the Black Death to today. As always in this series, we finish with our guests’ reflections on the future.LINKS AND REFERENCESDo you prefer reading to listening? You can find⁠ a summarised essay ⁠of this conversation, with a bibliography, at our series page:⁠ ⁠https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/centres/cage/news/podcasts/⁠⁠GREAT DIVERGENCE: THE MAKING OF THE MODERN WORLDThis episode is part of a series produced by Warwick University’s⁠⁠ ⁠CAGE Research Centre⁠⁠⁠ in collaboration with⁠⁠ ⁠On Humans⁠⁠, searching for explanations to why Western Europe and North America emerged as the most affluent and technologically advanced regions of the modern world. Guided by six expert guests, including a winner of the 2025 Nobel Prize in economics, we approach this topic with balance and breadth, exploring everything from colonialism and fossil fuels to science and technology. 1 | Why the West? Colonies, fossil fuels, and lessons from China (Kenneth Pomeranz)2 | Why did so many inventions come from Europe? (with Joel Mokyr)3 | Why did the Industrial Revolution happen in Britain? (Robert Allen) 4 | A view from the East: China, Japan, and the other paths to prosperity (Debin Ma)5 | The big picture: Measuring the origins of the modern world (Bishnupriya Gupta and Stephen Broadberry)NAMES MENTIONEDJames E. Thorold Rogers | Kenneth Pomeranz | Joel Mokyr | Jane Humphries | Daniel Defoe | Bradford J. (Brad) DeLong | Branko Milanovic | Daron Acemoglu | Oded GalorKEYWORDSEconomics | History | Global Economic History | Industrial Revolution | Age of Inventions | Steam engine| European Miracle | British Industrial Revolution in Global Perspective | Wage history | History of labour | Social history | Comparative development | Meiji Japan | Spinning Jenny | Industrial Policy | History of Technology | History of Inventions EPISODE INFOGuest: Robert C. Allen (Nuffield College, University of Oxford and NYU Abu Dhabi) ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Host: Ilari Mäkelä Contact: ⁠⁠⁠⁠greatdivergencepod@gmail.com⁠⁠⁠⁠Music by Aleksey Chistilin (Lexin_Music) ⁠⁠⁠via Pixabay⁠

Several inventions mark the progress towards modernity - the Gutenberg printing press, the Galileo telescope, the Watt steam engine. But why was Europe the birthplace of so many of these? Joel Mokyr, winner of the 2025 Nobel Prize in economics, thinks the cause was culture. For decades he has asked economists to take intellectual history more seriously. Economies are shaped by new inventions, Mokyr argues, and inventions can only be understood when we understand the culture that gives rise to them. But how much did Europe's culture shape its economy? And how to square early modern Europe's progressive culture with it's colonial legacy? Mokyr answers these and other questions in this episodes, finishing with his reflections on the future of technological progress.Enjoy!LINKS AND REFERENCESDo you prefer reading to listening? You can find⁠ a summarised essay ⁠of this conversation, with a bibliography, at our series page: ⁠https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/centres/cage/news/podcasts/GREAT DIVERGENCE: THE MAKING OF THE MODERN WORLDThis episode is part of a series produced by Warwick University’s⁠⁠ ⁠CAGE Research Centre⁠⁠⁠ in collaboration with⁠⁠ ⁠On Humans⁠⁠, searching for explanations to why Western Europe and North America emerged as the most affluent and technologically advanced regions of the modern world. Guided by six expert guests, including a winner of the 2025 Nobel Prize in economics, we approach this topic with balance and breadth, exploring everything from colonialism and fossil fuels to science and technology. 1 | Why the West? Colonies, fossil fuels, and lessons from China (Kenneth Pomeranz)2 | Why did so many inventions come from Europe? (with Joel Mokyr)3 | Why did the Industrial Revolution happen in Britain? (Robert Allen) 4 | A view from the East: China, Japan, and the other paths to prosperity (Debin Ma)5 | The big picture: Measuring the origins of the modern world (Bishnupriya Gupta and Stephen Broadberry)NAMES MENTIONEDJoel Mokyr | Robert Lucas | David Hume | Isaac Newton | Antoine Lavoisier | Joseph Black | James Watt | John Robison | Josiah Wedgwood | Sadi Carnot | Margaret Jacob | Evangelista Torricelli | Galileo Galilei | Blaise Pascal | Otto von Guericke | Aristotle | Denis Diderot | William Harvey | Song Yingxing | Marco Polo | Zheng He | Louis XIV | Avner Greif | Guido Tabellini | Kenneth Pomeranz | Adam Smith | Anne-Robert-Jacques Turgot | Montesquieu | Voltaire | Confucius | al-Ghazali | Ptolemy | Euclid | David Ricardo | Karl Marx | Hippocrates | Galen | Xi Jinping | Joseph Needham | Nigel Farage | Joseph Stalin | Trofim Lysenko | Robert AllenKEYWORDSEconomics | History | Global Economic History | Intellectual History | Age of Inventions | Rise of the West | European Miracle | Enlightened Economy | Culture of Growth | Gift of Athena |Industrial Revolution | History of technology | History of inventions INFOGuest: Joel Mokyr (⁠⁠⁠Northwestern University)⁠⁠⁠Host: Ilari Mäkelä Contact: ⁠⁠⁠greatdivergencepod@gmail.com⁠⁠⁠Music by Aleksey Chistilin (Lexin_Music) ⁠⁠via Pixabay

Why did Western Europe become the richest region of the early modern world? Was the rise of the West powered by colonization, inventions, or something else entirely? And what happened to the medieval might of China and India?The term “great divergence” is increasingly used by historians who want to study this immense question, but who want to do it carefully, without falling into traditional East-West clichés. This episode marks the beginning of a five-episode series exploring the state of this research, produced by the University of Warwick’s CAGE Research Centre in collaboration with the On Humans Podcast.In this opening episode, we meet Kenneth Pomeranz, the historian of China who coined the term "great divergence" in a field-defining book of the same name. We begin by discussing Pomeranz’s groundbreaking approach and the surprising answers that he arrived at. In the second half of the episode, we zoom out and place the rise of the West into the broader story about the history of humanity – a story Pomeranz divides into four parts, with the fifth one beginning right now.Enjoy!LINKS AND REFERENCESDo you prefer reading to listening? You can find summary essays, bibliographies, and much more at our series page: https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/centres/cage/news/podcasts/GREAT DIVERGENCE: THE MAKING OF THE MODERN WORLDThis episode is part of a series produced by Warwick University’s⁠⁠⁠ ⁠CAGE Research Centre⁠⁠⁠⁠ in collaboration with⁠⁠⁠ ⁠On Humans⁠⁠⁠, searching for explanations to why Western Europe and North America emerged as the most affluent and technologically advanced regions of the modern world. Guided by six expert guests, including a winner of the 2025 Nobel Prize in economics, we approach this topic with balance and breadth, exploring everything from colonialism and fossil fuels to science and technology. 1 | Why the West? Colonies, fossil fuels, and lessons from China (Kenneth Pomeranz)2 | Why did so many inventions come from Europe? (with Joel Mokyr)3 | Why did the Industrial Revolution happen in Britain? (Robert Allen) 4 | A view from the East: China, Japan, and the other paths to prosperity (Debin Ma)5 | The big picture: Measuring the origins of the modern world (Bishnupriya Gupta and Stephen Broadberry)NAMES MENTIONEDJoel Mokyr | Brad DeLong | Arthur Wigley | Jan De Vries | Robert Allen | Simon Schama | Isaac Newton | Vasco da Gama | Jonathan Spence| Anthony Wrigley | Thomas Malthus | Nate Hagens | Charles Lockyer | Marshall Hodgson | Aristotle | Plato | Jared Diamond | Adam Smith | KEYWORDS Economics | History | Global Economic History | Malthusian Economics | Fossil Fuel Economics | Economics of Colonialism | Rise of the West | European Miracle | California School of Economics | Atlantic Trade | Industrial Revolution | Second Industrial Revolution | Historic living standardsINFOGuest: Kenneth Pomeranz (⁠⁠University of Chicago⁠⁠)Host: Ilari Mäkelä Contact: ⁠⁠greatdivergencepod@gmail.com⁠⁠Music by Aleksey Chistilin (Lexin_Music) ⁠⁠⁠via Pixabay.⁠⁠

The science of human origins keeps producing new theories. But are we any closer to telling a true story of human origins? Or are we simply drowning in data? Earlier this November, the chair of UCSD’s Department of Anthropology invited me to explore this question in a campus talk. My optimistic claim was that underneath many of the field’s important debates, a powerful story has been emerging. At its core, this is a story about calories, cooperation, and climate change. And at the centre of it are not men hunting or women gathering.At the centre of it are children playing and learning.Here is the recording from the talk . Check out also my Substack essay inspired by this talk, with many of the pictures and graphs from the slides! PS. I was in San Diego to attend a CARTA symposium on the role of genetics in the study of human origins. I managed to record three episodes behind the scenes. Live recordings coming soon!FACT CHECKINGNo major errors have been found yet. As a small correction, the mention about macaques vs giraffe's should have been about neurons in the cortex, not total neurons in the brain. The main idea doesn't change. If you find an error in this or other episodes, get in touch via the form below.LINKSArticles and essays: OnHumans.Substack.comSupport: Patreon.com/OnHumansContact Form: https://forms.gle/h5wcmefuwvD6asos8KEYWORDSHuman evolution | Human origins | Anthropogeny | Anthropology | Paleoanthropology | Genus Homo | Australopithecins | Human brain | Comparative neuroanatomy | Human tool cultures | Alloparenting | Cooking hypothesis | Expensive tissue hypothesis | Life history | r vs K strategies |

Why did the great powers of Asia stagnate whilst Europe was rising? This question—often called the Great Divergence—is one of the most defining questions of modern history.Few case studies illuminate this question as well as the contrast between Britain and India. Did colonialism make Britain rich and India poor? Or was Britain’s rise already underway before conquest? And what does all this tell us about the everyday experiences of the people of on two sides of the divide?This episode is a live recording from the British Academy, where I was invited to speak at the launch of Bishnupriya Gupta’s An Economic History of India. I was honoured to give this talk on this exceptionally rich topic, speaking after some of the leading experts of India's history. How did I do? Share your thoughts in the comments at OnHumans.Substack.com.Enjoy!DIG DEEPERRead: See my article on the ⁠"Origins of Modern India⁠⁠". Complement with "Origins of Modern China" from last fall.Listen: Check out the two-part "⁠What About India?⁠" series from this February. Complement with the episode with Professor Tirthankar Roy this July.SUPPORT THE SHOWYou can pledge your support at ⁠⁠⁠Patreon.com/OnHumans⁠⁠⁠⁠KEYWORDS Big history | Economic History | Why the West | Gunpowder empires | Mughals | Colonialism | Imperialism | British East India Company | European colonialism | History of Colonialism | Geographical Determinism | Environmental Determinism | Political History | Fiscal History | Great Divergence | Western Dominance | Early Modern History | Kenneth Pomerantz | Steven Broadberry

On Humans is back from the break! To mark the summer heat, here is a two-part series on how climate has shaped the human story. In next week's episodes, we will explore the role of water and weather in the origins of European colonialism. But today, we start by crawling deeper into the past: to the origins of humanity itself.In this episode, Yale professor Jessica Thompson helps us navigate one of the most influential ideas in human evolution: that an ancient climate change pushed our ancestors out of the jungle, onto the savanna, and eventually toward big brains, meat-eating, and tool use.This is a captivating story. It has been mentioned many times on the show. But do the details hold up?What follows is a sweeping account of human origins, which nuances — but does not reject — the grand arc explored in The Origins of Humankind series. This is a story about a climate that has never remained steady. It serves as a poignant reminder of the weather's power to shape human destiny. But it’s also a story about human resilience and our capacity, from the very beginning, to defy the iron laws of ecology. Enjoy!Thoughts about the episode? Share them at OnHumans.Substack.com⁠. You'll also find a bunch of links to dig deeper. SUPPORT THE SHOWYou can pledge your support at Patreon.com/OnHumans⁠MENTIONED SCHOLARSRichard Wrangham (guest in summer 2023) Sarah Blaffer Hrdy (guest in Spring 2024)KEYWORDS Human evolution | Human origins | Paleoanthropology | Human biology | Climate change | Miocene | Pleistocene | Brain evolution | Brain energetics | Deep history | Anthropology | Archaeology | Austrolopithecins | Genus homo | Bipedalism | Evolution of apes | Missing link | Tsetse flies |