Pivot Podcast

Dr. Verlon Fosner's Seattle congregation was declining 14% every year despite doing everything right—improved worship, new programs, upgraded tech. So Verlon stopped trying to fix the decline and started asking a different question: Where is God already at work among people who will never walk through our church doors? His answer transformed his understanding of missional church. In 2008, his team opened their first dinner church in a struggling neighborhood with just tables, food, and Jesus stories. The room immediately filled with never-been-churched people who'd never wanted anything to do with traditional church.In this conversation, Verlon shares how dinner church creates a fundamentally different entry point for faith by recovering the ancient practice of gathering around Jesus' table. He explains why inviting someone to dinner is different than inviting them to Sunday worship, how the first apostles focused on Jesus stories rather than systematic theology, and what happens when tables replace classrooms as the primary environment for discipleship. If your church is declining and you're exhausted from trying to fix it, this conversation offers a different way forward for missional church in a post-Christian context.

Many church leaders feel crushing church growth pressure—the constant anxiety that if you don't reverse decline or manage outcomes perfectly, you've failed. But what if that pressure is actually destroying the very connections you're trying to create? Dr. Andy Root and Rev. Kara Root discovered this truth on a 63-mile pilgrimage through Scotland with their teenagers. As they learned to let go of control in parenting, they began to see how the same dynamic plays out in pastoral leadership. When consultants use decline statistics to scare congregations into action, when the main issue becomes lack of growth instead of the Word of God, something shifts: pastors become managers and God becomes subtle.In this episode, Andy (Luther Seminary professor) and Kara (pastor at Lake Nokomis Presbyterian Church in Minneapolis) talk about what it means to create space for God without trying to manufacture the moment. They discuss "semi-controlled experiences" in worship and prayer, where you can create conditions but can't guarantee the encounter. They share what it means to be dialogue partners instead of managers with your congregation. And they reflect on what a 300-year gap in church leadership at the ancient monastery of Lindisfarne taught them about who really holds the story. If you're exhausted from church growth pressure and the weight of trying to control everything, this conversation offers a different way forward.

What if the church planters God is calling are already in your congregation? John McGinley, executive director of Myriad in the UK, shares how they're equipping everyday disciples to start new worshiping communities in gyms, schools, neighborhoods, and workplaces. Since 2022, over 100 teams and 400+ people have launched contextual churches led by non-ordained believers. John explains how to recognize potential church planters, why a two-and-a-half-year community journey sustains these fragile new communities, and how ordained leaders can shift from delivering ministry to equipping it.In this conversation, you'll hear stories of a former bodybuilder who turned his gym into a church where over 20 people have come to faith, and a mom who created worship for families with special needs children. John shares practical wisdom on validating callings you might be missing, building small communities around meals and relationships rather than programs, and contextualizing the gospel for the people already in your networks. Discover how the role of ordained leadership is shifting from professional ministry delivery to equipping and overseeing grassroots church planters who are reaching people traditional models can't.

Discover how to read the financial parables of Jesus Christ with fresh eyes in this conversation with Dr. Keith Bodner, author of "Exploring the Financial Parables of Jesus." Keith shares how a moment of panic in the pulpit led him to rediscover the confrontational power of Jesus' economic stories—parables about treasure in fields, workers in vineyards, servants with talents, and rich men who know their neighbor's name but never open the gate. These stories reveal what Keith calls the economy of grace, where God's generosity turns our assumptions about wealth, fairness, and resources upside down.The financial parables of Jesus Christ haven't lost their power—familiarity has just worn off their edge. Keith helps church leaders understand why context matters when interpreting these stories, how a deficient view of God shapes the way we respond to what we've been given, and why the older brother in the prodigal son parable might be about us rather than the Pharisees. Whether you're preparing to preach on the parable of the talents, teaching a Bible study on Lazarus at the gate, or helping your congregation think differently about stewardship, this conversation offers practical insights for letting these ancient texts confront and transform us again.

Pastoral care for pastors takes center stage in this special Christmas reflection as Steve Thomason offers church leaders a rare gift during the busiest season of the year: permission to let go of perfect. If you've been working nonstop since September with rally days, sermons, hospital visits, and board meetings, you know the weight that builds as Christmas approaches. The pressure to make everything spectacular for people who'll only attend once all year can feel overwhelming. But Steve invites leaders to remember what really happened that first Christmas night—not spectacle or perfection, but the raw, ordinary mess of childbirth in a stable where God chose to enter the world.Drawing from the Gospel of John and Paul's letter to the Philippians, Steve reminds us that Jesus didn't own a home or get worked up about buildings and budgets. He had a simple call: proclaim God's kingdom and invite people to love God and neighbor. This reflection offers weary church leaders a blessing of simplicity, inviting them back to that stable scene where a young couple, displaced strangers finding shelter among animals, brought God into the world through the same painful process we all experience. It was normal, messy, and beautiful—and pastoral care for pastors means remembering that you are too.

Ministry burnout prevention isn't just about better time management or clearer boundaries. In this episode, Wes Granberg-Michaelson shares what he learned from five decades of church leadership and 50 years of personal journals: the leaders who sustain faithful ministry for the long haul are the ones who tend their inner lives. Wes explains why "only the pain you name is available for transformation" and why the pain you don't name gets transmitted to others. He talks about building a "holding space" that takes care of your soul when no board or congregation will do it for you, why prayer is fundamentally about attention in an attention economy, and why strategic plans can't do what spiritual grounding does. For church leaders feeling exhausted or discouraged, Wes offers both honest diagnosis and genuine hope.Wes also addresses what's really happening with spiritual interest in America beyond the decline statistics, why the deepest failure of mainline Christianity has been the failure of Christian formation, and what pastors can learn from Dietrich Bonhoeffer about forming communities in challenging times. Drawing on his experience from the U.S. Senate to denominational leadership to global ecumenical work, Wes challenges the addiction to planning and control that infiltrates the church and invites leaders to pay attention to where God is already at work. This conversation offers wisdom about integrating your inward and outward journeys for sustainable, faithful leadership.

When established churches struggle to connect with their communities, leaders typically reach for one of two solutions: work harder at the inherited model, or import a successful church plant template. But Dr. Dwight Zscheile and Rev. Ed Olsworth-Peter are inviting us to consider a different approach—one that develops church plant leadership skills through deep listening to the Spirit and to the neighborhood rather than implementing blueprints or programs. In this episode, they discuss their new book, The Starter's Way, which draws on stories from both the UK's Fresh Expression Movement and communities across the United States to explore the spiritual foundations and practices that make for faithful, sustainable leadership of new Christian communities.Dwight and Ed share compelling examples of contextual ministry, from a Wisconsin community that created "Play, Pray, and Popsicles" for families with neurodivergent children to forest churches in the UK where people encounter God in creation. They explore the 15 pioneer principles that shape church plant leadership skills, organized around spiritual foundations (Jesus-centered, prayerful, called, bicultural, and responsive), inward qualities (discerning, self-giving, playful, hospitable, and resilient), and outward practices (noticing, adapting, experimenting, co-creating, and persisting). This conversation offers hope for leaders who want to join what God is already doing in their neighborhoods rather than trying to fix inherited structures or replicate someone else's success story.

Our congregations are filled with people wrestling with anxiety, depression, and struggles they don't always name out loud. Many church leaders feel the weight of wanting to help people through their mental health challenges, but what does a shared approach to pastoral care look like in a church setting? And how can leaders companion people through these struggles without burning out? In this episode, Dr. Cody Sanders—Associate Professor of Congregational and Community Care Leadership at Luther Seminary and author of Spiritual Care First Aid—shares how churches can become communities of healing and hope. He offers practical examples of collaborative approaches to care, from worship planning to equipping lay caregivers, that honor both the humanity of those who are struggling and the limitations of those who care.You'll discover why companioning beats fixing every time, how to create trauma-informed care practices without clinical training, and practical ways to combat loneliness in your congregation. Cody shares stories of churches doing this well—from pastors passing out donuts at the high school to congregations equipping lay care teams that become self-sustaining. Whether you're a pastor feeling overwhelmed by caregiving responsibilities or a lay leader wanting to support your community better, this conversation offers a sustainable path forward that invites your entire church to share in the ministry of care.