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Recent episodes
We're back!
Jun 18, 2026
31m 34s
Sarah Posner - On her new podcast, Epstein, and other news
Feb 9, 2026
49m 32s
RERELEASE (from 12/23): Ghosts of Christmas Past - with Sara Cleto and Brittany Warman
Dec 23, 2025
55m 26s
RERELEASE (from 12/24): Did Dickens "Invent" Christmas? - with Kristen Hanley Cardozo
Dec 16, 2025
1h 00m 39s
#060 - Selling Out Santa - with Vaughn Joy
Dec 9, 2025
1h 11m 56s
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| Date | Episode | Topics | Guests | Brands | Places | Keywords | Sponsor | Length | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 6/18/26 | ![]() We're back! | Kelly has officially mastered the fine arts, so after a half year break, we're back! We'll have real episode coming up in a week or so, but for now we catch up on where we've been as Kelly talks about finishing her MFA and John talks about the World Cup and how England is definitely going to win it all for real this time. | 31m 34s | ||||||
| 2/9/26 | ![]() Sarah Posner - On her new podcast, Epstein, and other news✨ | podcast discussionEpstein case+3 | Sarah Posner | Reign of Error | — | Sarah PosnerEpstein+3 | — | 49m 32s | |
| 12/23/25 | ![]() RERELEASE (from 12/23): Ghosts of Christmas Past - with Sara Cleto and Brittany Warman | Kelly is away, so our next new episode will be released in two weeks. This is a rerelease of an episode originally published on December 19th, 2023. But Scrooge was all the worse for this. It thrilled him with a vague uncertain horror, to know that behind the dusky shroud there were ghostly eyes intently fixed upon him, while he, though he stretched his own to the utmost, could see nothing but a spectral hand and one great heap of black. So Charles Dickens described Ebenezer Scrooge's encounter with the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come in his beloved 1843 classic A Christmas Carol. And while A Christmas Carol is best known as the endlessly-adapted and reimagined cornerstone of modern Christmas storytelling, it's also a freaky ghost story, and it turns out that, in Dickens' England, telling ghost stories at Christmas was a whole thing! There were, as it turns out, a lot of ghosts in Christmas past. Why did Victorians like themselves a spooky Christmas? And when did spookiness get replaced with mall Santas, Bing Crosby, and family church services? Is it too late to make Christmas spooky again? This week, Kelly and John talk to folklorists Sara Cleto and Brittany Warman, co-founders of the Carterhaugh School about lost Christmas traditions, winter hauntings, and what else you should read if you prefer ghastly specters to eggnog and Rudolph. | 55m 26s | ||||||
| 12/16/25 | ![]() RERELEASE (from 12/24): Did Dickens "Invent" Christmas? - with Kristen Hanley Cardozo | The 2017 film The Man Who Invented Christmas, starring human treasure Dan Stevens as Charles Dickens, is a lovely bit of an anachronistic historical revisionism (though, to be fair, it gets a number of things right both in fact and in, pardon the pun, spirit). But it also perpetuates an increasingly popular myth - that Charles Dickens...well...invented Christmas. At least, that is, Christmas as we think of it today. There are a lot of reasons why this seems true, and, yes, Dicken's A Christmas Carol played an enormous role in a Victorian revival and redefining of Christmas - but that revival was happening with him or without him. So we decided to take a closer look at Victorian society in the 1940s and exam how religious - or not - Dickens and A Christmas Carol actually were. Kelly and John invited Victorianist Kristen Hanley Cardozo to share some of her expertise and talk about spirits, Scrooges, and the real reasons for the season. | 1h 00m 39s | ||||||
| 12/9/25 | ![]() #060 - Selling Out Santa - with Vaughn Joy | Dr. Vaughn Joy's new book, Selling Out Santa, explores the role Christmas movies played in shaping American culture (and vice-versa) during the Cold War. Via a case study on Hollywood Christmas films released between 1946 and 1961, Selling Out Santa offers an examination of political pressures on Hollywood in the post-war period and the cultural ramifications of federal involvement in the motion picture industry. As the House Committee on Un-American Activities opened hearings in 1947 and the FBI gathered reports on potential communist subversion in Frank Capra’s Christmas classic It’s a Wonderful Life (1946), Hollywood executives began to bend to the socially conservative pressures of this post-war moment. In this episode, Kelly and John talk to Vaughn about the genesis of her book and the ways in which Christmas movies have evolved into the Hallmark rom-coms we have all come to know and love-or-hate today. You can find Vaughn on Bluesky @gvaughnjoy | 1h 11m 56s | ||||||
| 11/27/25 | ![]() RERELEASE: Unraveling the Thanksgiving Myth - with Dr. David J. Silverman (11/2023) | RERELEASE FROM 11/2023 What better way to celebrate Thanksgiving than to have Kelly and John ruin it for you? Just kidding! We're not here to cancel Thanksgiving and we hope you have a lovely one. But holidays are weird things - we often celebrate them without really examining why, or how we arrived at the myths and rituals that emanate from their core. And Thanksgiving is, in many ways, our strangest holiday - a secular celebration that is at once also an aggressively religious one, built around a series of supposedly historical events that seem to have a lot of missing pieces when you start connecting the dots. It can also be a day that evokes painful memories for the indigenous population. To help us unpack what Thanksgiving is and what it is not, and to shed some light on how we came to celebrate this holiday as well as how important it is that we not let that celebration obscure our understanding of early American history and the genocide of the indigenous population, we asked historian David J. Silverman - author of This Land is Their Land - to join us. | 1h 13m 02s | ||||||
| 11/25/25 | ![]() #059 – The Passion of the Marjorie Taylor Greene | It's been a heck of a week on the internet! Marjorie Taylor Greene went from MAGA darling to MAGA outcast and from Georgia Congresswoman to Soon-to-be-Former Georgie Congresswoman in record time. We look at her attempted redemption/resurrection story with a skeptical eye, muse on what this means for the future or MAGA. Plus - Silicon Valley is suddenly obsessed with the End Times and Peter Thiel is worried about the Antichrist, who, as it turns out, happens to probably be all the things Peter Thiel doesn't like! And the US Bishops push back against Trump while the Pope decrees the four best films and rocks the mic at a rave! Adam Willems: An ex-Intel CEO’s mission to build a Christian AI: ‘hasten the coming of Christ’s return’ | 56m 06s | ||||||
| 11/11/25 | ![]() #058 – THE EXORCIST EFFECT with Joseph Laycock | Last episode we discussed The Exorcist, so this time we're taking a closer look its impact on our culture and religious beliefs as explored in The Exorcist Effect by Eric Harrelson and our guest Joseph Laycock. Laycock is an associate professor of religious studies at Texas State University. He holds a MTS from Harvard Divinity School and a PhD from Boston University and has written several books on new religious movements and American religious history. Much of his work explores how pop culture and religion collide, and The Exorcist Effect looks at the ongoing relationship between horror movies and Western religious culture, with a focus on the period from 1968 to the modern day. He joins Kelly and John to talk about how and why The Exorcist changed the Catholic (and broadly religious) imagination, and why so many moral panic stem from people who can't distinguish movies from real life. Joe is on Bluesky @josephlaycock | 1h 06m 41s | ||||||
| 10/28/25 | ![]() #057 – THE EXORCIST with Matthew J. Cressler | 1973's The Exorcist is a landmark film for any number of reasons (many of which we get into here). It's also a film Kelly had never seen, and a favorite of our friend Matthew J. Cressler. Matt talked to us about Catholic horror and The Exorcist two years ago, but we really wanted to dig into the film in detail, so here we are. The Exorcist is one of many examples of art imitating life imitating art. It both revived a certain kind of supernatural zeal in Catholicism while also exploring an underlying aversion to the same. While it's not always successful and doesn't necessarily hold the same shock value it once did, it also completely reimagined what a horror film could be and provided proof of concept that the public was ready to explore and challenge religious ideas in new and sometime shocking ways. And like a lot of other horror that has captured the cultural imagination throughout history, The Exorcist spilled over into the real world, giving rise to the idea that the film was cursed. And in the next episode, we'll take a closer look at its cultural and religious impact. Matt is on Bluesky @mjcressler | 1h 16m 28s | ||||||
| 10/21/25 | ![]() #056 – Paranormal America with Darryl Caterine | It's spooky season, and to start off our spooky and spooky-adjacent episodes, Kelly and John talk to scholar Darryl Caterine, author of 2011's Haunted Ground: Journeys through a Paranormal America which explores the meaning of our nation’s fascination with paranormal phenomena through a series of thick descriptions and analyses of a Spiritualist camp in upstate New York, the Roswell UFO Festival in New Mexico, and an annual dowsing convention in Vermont. Caterine is a historian of religions whose research focuses on the intersections of religion, culture, and politics in the United States and parts of Latin America. His areas of academic interest include Latino/a religions, metaphysical/occult religions in America, and religion and popular culture. He also co-edited 2019's collection of scholarly essays The Paranormal and Popular Culture: A Postmodern Religious Landscape. Here they talk about the thin line between hoax and sincere belief, how mystical and spiritual practices function in the information age, and how geography, history, and culture shape how the paranormal appears in various pockets of America. | 1h 03m 25s | ||||||
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| 10/14/25 | ![]() RERELEASE: What really happened at Salem - with Kathleen M. Brown | Due to some scheduling difficulties, we're pushing back this week's episode to next week and then going back-to-back Tuesdays. In the meantime, enjoy this episode from last Halloween with Kathleen M. Brown on the Salem Witch Trials _____________________________ The Salem Witch Trials may well be the single most notorious and iconic event of America's colonial period. Every Halloween, Salem, Massachusetts, hosts untold thousands of tourists who revel in the city's occult history and reputation as America's haunted capital of spookiness. But as well-known as the Salem Witch Trials are, they remain a hotbed of historical inaccuracy and misconception. So what exactly happened? How did a sleepy, growing Massachusetts town become the epicenter of witch hysteria? Did everyone go insane, or were the Salem Witch Trials perfectly consistent with the worldview of Salem's citizens. To help us clear this up, Kelly and John asked University of Pennsylvania history professor Kathleen M. Brown for her insights. Brown is a historian of gender and race in early America and the Atlantic World. Educated at Wesleyan University and the University of Wisconsin, Madison, she is author of Good Wives, Nasty Wenches, and Anxious Patriarchs: Gender, Race, and Power in Colonial Virginia (Chapel Hill, 1996), which won the Dunning Prize of the American Historical Association. Her latest, Undoing Slavery: Bodies, Race, and Rights in the Age of Abolition, was published in 2023. | 58m 30s | ||||||
| 9/30/25 | ![]() #055 – Taylor Swift: Christian TradWife Extraordinaire! | As soon as Taylor Swift announced her engagement to podcast host and occasional football player Travis Kelce, the weirdest weirdos on the Christian right burst into excitement over the possibility that Swift might finally, finally be morphing into one of them, urging her to "submit" to Kelce as a TradWife. It seems unlikely that a billionaire in her mid-30s like Taylor Swift will feel inclined to suddenly drop everything to bake bread, rear children, and spend her weekends Konmari-ing, but who knows?! This week, Kelly and John examine why, exactly, the right is particularly deranged when it comes to their Taylor Swift obsession, and why they feel a particular ownership over the world's most famous former Christmas Tree farm inhabitant. Also! We bid a sad farewell to friend of the pod and recurring POK supporting character Ryan Walters, address the troubling phenomenon of the Two Charlie Kirk Algorithms problem, and check in with which child murderers the world's most powerful Christian Nationalist and former weekend talk show host Pete Hegseth is honoring this week! | 53m 39s | ||||||
| 9/16/25 | ![]() RERELEASE (from 2/25 ): The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover with Lerone A. Martin | Given recent events, we have decided not to release a new episode this week. Instead, given rising concerns about state retribution to political violence and the weaponization of law enforcement, we are re-releasing our conversation with Lerone A. Martin from February, in which he discusses his book The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover. _________________________________________________________ This week, Kelly and John are joined by Lerone A. Martin to discuss his unfortunately timely and prescient book, The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover: How the FBI Aided and Abetted the Rise of White Christian Nationalism. Martin is the Martin Luther King, Jr., Centennial Professor in Religious Studies, African & African American Studies, and The Nina C. Crocker Faculty Scholar. He also serves as the Director of the Martin Luther King, Jr. Research and Education Institute at Stanford University. He's is an award-winning author. The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover was published in February 2023 by Princeton University Press. The book has garnered praise from numerous publications including The Nation, Foreign Affairs, The Guardian, Publisher’s Weekly, and History Today. In 2014 he published, Preaching on Wax: The Phonograph and the Making of Modern African American Religion. That book received the 2015 first book award by the American Society of Church History. His commentary and writing have been featured on The NBC Today Show, The History Channel, PBS, CSPAN, and NPR, as well as in The New York Times, Boston Globe, CNN.com, and the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. He currently serves as an advisor on the upcoming PBS documentary series The History of Gospel Music & Preaching. | 1h 01m 46s | ||||||
| 9/2/25 | ![]() #054 - James Dobson (1936-2025) with Hilde Lovdal Stephens (SORRY ABOUT JOHN'S AUDIO!!) | James Dobson, the founder of Focus on the Family and author of many popular books about "Christian parenting", died in late August at the age of 89. Dobson's death was celebrated by many ex-Evangelicals of a certain age who were raised in part or in total by Dobson's teaching and methods. He leaves behind a complicated and questionable legacy, including a generation of ex-Evangelicals who despise him and credit him for ruining their lives on the one hand, and an Evangelical movement that seems to have moved past him on the other. Joining Kelly and John to talk about the life and times of James Dobson is Hilde Løvdal Stephens, an associatie professor of American Studies at the University of Oslo. Her first book, Family Matters: James Dobson and Focus on the Family’s Crusade for the Christian Home, was published by the University of Alabama Press in 2019. You can find her on Bluesky @hildelstephens (NOTE: At about the 15 minute mark, John's audio goes crackly. We did our best to make it as listenable as possible! Our apologies to all. We'll do better next time!) | 1h 04m 21s | ||||||
| 8/19/25 | ![]() #053 – Heretic (2024) - with Shaily Patel | Heretic was released in theaters in 2024 and quickly developed something of a cult fandom, especially among religion nerds. Starring Hugh Grant in a rare villainous dark turn, Heretic tells to story of two young Mormon missionaries, Sister Paxton and Sister Barnes, who find themselves forced to defend their faith (and their lives) against the human manifestation of dickish online atheist bros. Whether of not Heretic is a good movie about religion is open to debate (and we take that up here), but unlike other religious horror, it pulls its thrills from a very unique source and its writers did their homework, painting faith and believers in three dimensions while not endorsing either, and showing the folly of hyper-rationality at the same time. Shaily Patel, one of our earliest guests, rejoins us to talk about a movie she describes as one she both loves and hates. You can find her on Bluesky @vox-magica. | 1h 22m 17s | ||||||
| 8/5/25 | ![]() #052 – At Last, A Woke Superman! | We're back, and we're catching up on the things we missed this summer: Woke Superman, Ryan Walters' porn crisis, the DHS's weird fascism Twitter posts, and more! Kelly tells us about her surgery and recovery. John talks about his trip and getting a ridiculous amount of poison ivy on him. And they both talk about how Ryan Walters, the notorious Christian Nationalist in charge of Oklahoma schools, got caught with porn. Also, there's a new Woke Superman! James Gunn pisses off the right by deciding to make a Superman movie where Superman in an immigrant who cares about non-white people! It's very radical and disturbing! Plus: Epstein, and how it's now cool for you to convert the person in the next cubicle to Christianity if you work for the government. Links to the pieces discussed in this episode: Siri Dahl vs. Christian Nationalism With its ‘Homeland Heritage’ Campaign Trump’s DHS is Leaning Sharply into ‘Blood and Soil’ Ideology DHS’s ‘Homeland Heritage’ Campaign Highlights Danger of Innocence Myths of a White Christian America | 1h 04m 10s | ||||||
| 6/10/25 | ![]() #051 – Acute Religious Experiences - with Richard Saville-Smith | This week, Richard Saville-Smith joins Kelly and John to talk about his book Acute Religious Experiences – Madness, Psychosis, and Religious Studies, which was published by Bloomsbury in 2023. Saville-Smith is an independent researcher who focuses on the intersection of madness, mental disorders, and acute religious experiences, from a mad studies perspective. He earned his PhD in Philosophy and Religious Studies from the University of Edinburgh in 2020. They discuss the relatively little-known academic field of mad studies - which seeks to destigmatize and depathologize the concept of madness - and how the fields of psychiatry and religious studies, often operating in conflict with one another, have distorted our understanding of the authenticity of acute religious experiences like the ones described in the lives of Joan of Arc or Jesus. Richard is on Bluesky @dranamorphosis | 59m 18s | ||||||
| 5/28/25 | ![]() #050 - Severance - The Church of Keir | Apple TV's Severance wrapped its long-awaited 2nd season recently and left us with more answers than questions. But some answers! We (sorta) know what Severance is really all about, and we (sorta, maybe) know what Lumon is up to now! So while we wait the ungodly eternity for Severance to return, John and Kelly invited scholar Niki Dolfi on to talk about the cults, religious allusions, identity, and goats. Niki Dolfi researches Christian Nationalism and white supremacy (among other things) and explores the intersection of religion and popular entertainment. She enjoys British television and is longtime Whovian Niki is on Bluesky @profdolfi | 1h 14m 21s | ||||||
| 5/13/25 | ![]() #049 – Our Pope Watch Has Ended | Last week, the Catholic Church absolutely shook the world by electing Robert Prevost - an Augustinian from Chicago - Pope Leo XIV, making him the first ever American pope. Immediately, MAGA lost their collective minds, calling Leo XIV a woke Marxist and an anti-Trump liberal. Leo XIV's election was, without question, a statement by the Church directed squarely at MAGA and Donald Trump, but so many questions remain about what happens next. Kelly and John share their thoughts about the selection of Prevost, what it means that he chose the name Leo XIV, and why this way well serve as a check against Trump's fascism and persecution of immigrant communities. They also take a look at some of the findings from the Public Religion Research Institute's findings from their survey of Americans following Trump's first 100 days. John's thoughts on Leo XIV or available on our blog. The PRRI surveys we discuss on the episode can be found here and here | 1h 06m 54s | ||||||
| 4/29/25 | ![]() #048 – Annika Brockschmidt | This week, author and journalist Annika Brockschmidt joins John to talk about the perception of the American Christian Right in Europe, the possibly intentional downplaying of Christian Nationalism in Trump 2.0, and Pete Hegseth's tattoos. Annika Brockschmidt studied History, German Studies, and War and Conflict Studies in Heidelberg, Durham and Potsdam. She is a freelance journalist and author, Worked for the capital city studio of German public-broadcaster ZDF and produces the podcasts “Kreuz und Flagge” And “Feminist Shelf Control”. She is senior correspondent for Religion Dispatches and writes for example for German daily newspaper Tagesspiegel, German online magazine Zeit Online, Frankfurt-based daily Frankfurter Rundschau, Swiss online magazine Republik, and German cross-regional weekly Der Freitag. Her Book “Amerikas Gotteskrieger. Über die Macht der Religiösen Rechten in den USA” (American Holy Warriors. The Power of the Religious Right in the USA) was a bestseller in 2021. Annika is on Bluesky @ardenthistorian.bsky.social | 1h 01m 39s | ||||||
| 4/15/25 | ![]() #047 – Rethinking "Lord of the Flies" in the age of MAGA | William Golding's 1952 novel Lord of the Flies is one of those books most of us of a certain age were forced to read in high school and pretty much universally hated. Often presented as a bleak meditation on human nature, Lord of the Flies certainly isn't that. But why were its real themes - the destructive nature of colonialism, the inconsistency between the ideals of democratic nations and their actual values, and how and why fascists tend to rise the top - so routinely overlooked for so long? Here, we suggest it's because Lord of the Flies is a book so obvious and unsparing in its symbolism it can really only be appreciated when its themes are playing out in front of us. As they are right now. With abandon. In this episode we also talk about how the Showtime series Yellowjackets helps illuminate why Lord of the Flies needs to be understood allegorically, as well as how fascism is depicted in another popular dystopian work involving teenagers killing each other, The Hunger Games. John's essay on Lord of the Flies can be found on our blog here: Lord of the Flies is more relevant now than ever | 1h 01m 56s | ||||||
| 4/1/25 | ![]() #046 – The MAGA Attack on Higher Education | Higher education is under attack in a way few saw coming. Maybe they should have, and maybe that's part of the problem. Institutions of higher education have been a laser target of the Trump administration's authoritarian project in its first two months. And while authoritarians have long prioritized going after and dismantling academic institutes, this strategy also includes the cynical use of major wedge issues (namely Israel/Palestine) and the manipulation of emotionally-charged, religiously-oriented terminology like "antisemitism" There is, as they say, a lot going on here, and we can't get to it all in one episode, but we thought it was important to take a broad look at what is going on in higher education, where we have gone wrong in our approach to that's made it so vulnerable to attack, and some of the surprising ways religious interests are shaping the outcomes. | 57m 34s | ||||||
| 3/4/25 | ![]() #045 – Roko's Basilisk, Pope Watch 2025, and Paula White | Before you listen to today's episode, you should know that knowing about Roko's Basilisk can doom you forever. Still here? Great. This week, John and Kelly explore a few of the religion stories that have surfaced in recent weeks, including what happens and if when Pope Francis dies soon, and the evangelical backlash of Trump appointing Paula White as the White House Faith officer. Then, we take on Roko's Basilisk, an unhinged thought experiment about the moral imperative of helping to develop super-intelligent A.I. that, as it happens, also helps explain Elon Musk's zealous, eugenicist project to dismantle the federal government. We promise it matters! | 56m 07s | ||||||
| 2/27/25 | ![]() (Edited Reissue) #024 - Simulation Theory, or Young Earth Creationism for Atheists | We recorded this about a year ago, for the 25th anniversary of the release of THE MATRIX. But since Elon Musk now controls the country, we're republishing an edited-down version because it's important to know how Musk thinks. Next episode, we'll be talking about a number of the other beliefs that shape Musk's worldview, among them Roko's Basilisk, so this episode is good preparation for that conversation. ************************************************************************************ In 2003, Oxford University philosophy professor Nick Bostrom published a paper titled Are You Living in a Computer Simulation, thus giving rise to the modern incarnation of Simulation Theory, which posits that our experienced reality is actually the product of an advanced (possibly future-self) civilization running a simulation experiment. But the paper on might have been written off as a useful thought experiment had it not been for the popularity of the 1999 film The Matrix, which celebrates its 25th anniversary this month, and its two sequels, which came out the same year as Bostrom's paper. In the years since, Simulation Theory has become a lot of things to a lot of people - from a fun metaphor to explain Cartesian philosophy to college freshmen to an all-out article of faith for an increasingly doctrinaire sub-culture of futurists. How useful (or even likely) is Simulation Theory? In honor of The Matrix's birthday, John and Kelly decided to take up that question. Sources https://simulation-argument.com/simulation.pdf https://builtin.com/hardware/simulation-theory https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-we-live-in-a-simulation-chances-are-about-50-50/ https://www.wired.com/story/living-in-a-simulation/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/ | 47m 46s | ||||||
| 2/21/25 | ![]() Chris Kluwe - (Republished from "Hard to Believe" - April, 2021) | This is a republished episode from John's former podcast Hard to Believe featuring an interview with Chris Kluwe In light Kluwe making national news with his recent act of anti-MAGA civil disobedience, we decided to republish an interview John conducted with Kluwe in 2021, in which he describes, among other things, how he came to be an activist and advocate for justice causes. Here is the original descriptions of that episode: ******************************************************************** Chris Kluwe was an accomplished NFL punter with the Minnesota Vikings. Then he decided to stand up for the rights of other human beings. Now he's a science fiction novelist. And a lot has happened in between. His first science fiction novel, Otaku, was just released in paperback, so he and John sat across the internet from each other to talk about where he gets his sense of social responsibility, his evolution as a writer, and how it feels to be the only person in American history to have used the term "lustful cockmonster" in a letter to a sitting elected official. Find out where to buy Otaku from somewhere other than Amazon here You can try not to get blocked by Chris by following him on Twitter @ChrisWarcraft Clips from the beginning of this episode come from: CNN, MSNBC, The Young Turks, The Dan Patrick Show, Geek and Sundry, Larry King Now, and Conan The outro is a cover of "Science Fiction / Double Feature" by Tall Dark Whimsy | 1h 01m 07s | ||||||
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