Pricing College Podcast

When you sit down with a CEO or commercial team and open up the actual transactional data, that is the exact moment a chilling realisation sets in. More often than not, the answer is: "Nobody knows." In this episode, we pull back the curtain on what pricing actually looks like inside a business that's been operating for 20+ years. It's not a story of intentional strategy—it's a story of accumulated chaos. From legacy discounts and old competitor responses to forgotten volume rebates and manual overrides, we look at how unexamined pricing complexity quietly destroys profitability. If your business is growing revenue but stalling on profitability, you don't have a sales problem or a margin problem. You have a price architecture problem. Tune in as we break down why a deep-dive pricing analysis is no longer optional—especially under current regulatory scrutiny—and how the businesses that hold genuine pricing power rely on clear, defensible reasons for their prices, not just a spreadsheet. #PricingStrategy #PricingAnalysis #ProfitMargin #BusinessStrategy #B2BBusiness #MarginProtection #CEO #Finance

Most people see the Coles pricing case as a retail story. It's not. It's a pricing story. And for suppliers, the lesson is much bigger than supermarket promotions. When discounts become frequent, customers stop trusting the full price. Promotional activity starts to shape expectations. Pricing power weakens long before margins show the damage. In this episode, we explore what suppliers can learn from the Coles pricing case, why pricing credibility matters more than ever, and what commercial leaders can do to protect value before it's too late. #PricingStrategy #FMCG #Retail #ConsumerGoods #PricingPower #CommercialStrategy #Profitability #Leadership

What does true pricing power look like when dominant buyers consolidate, overseas competitors slash prices, and your market options shrink all at once? In this episode of the Pricing College Podcast, we explore the deep strategic lessons concerning B2B pricing power following Wesfarmers' announcement that Blackwoods is moving under the Bunnings umbrella. When major channels merge, the balance of power shifts dramatically. For suppliers, this means you aren't just losing a sale; you are losing an independent buyer and finding yourself fighting for dwindling shelf space against a consolidated giant. We unpack the three structural pressures squeezing profit margins right now: Buyer Power & Channel Concentration (The reality of sudden tenders and lost accounts) The Overseas Under-Cut (How supply chains built without your overheads erode your premium) A Contracting Independent Network (The quiet disappearance of distributors and trade accounts) If your only leverage in a consolidated market is a low price, your brand's inherent pricing power has already vanished. Discover how to transition from being treated as mere expendable inventory to building a precise, quantified commercial value position that buyers are forced to respect. #pricingcollegepodcast #taylorwellspricing #PricingPower #Bunnings #BusinessStrategy #B2BMarketing #SupplyChain #ChannelConsolidation #ValueProposition #AustralianBusiness #MarginProtection

TIME STAMP NOTES: [00:00] Introduction: Why AI Pricing Could Become a Major Commercial Risk [01:40] Why AI Cannot Fix Broken Pricing Foundations [02:56] The Industrial Business Case Study and Hidden Margin Leakage [05:27] How AI Automates Pricing Dysfunction at Scale [07:30] Why AI Pricing Is a Governance and Transformation Challenge [09:44] Conclusion: The False Confidence AI Creates Inside Businesses AI pricing is being positioned as the solution to margin pressure, discount leakage, pricing inconsistency, and commercial complexity. But what happens when businesses automate pricing structures they never properly fixed in the first place? In this episode of the Pricing College Podcast, Joanna Wells explores why AI pricing may become one of the biggest hidden commercial risks facing businesses today. From weak governance and unmanaged discounting to pricing overrides, rebates, and fragmented pricing logic, many organisations may be scaling dysfunction rather than solving it. Using a real industrial business case study, this discussion explores: • Why AI cannot fix broken pricing foundations • How hidden margin leakage becomes embedded inside commercial behaviour • Why teams — not systems — are often holding pricing together manually • How AI can accelerate pricing inconsistency and margin erosion at scale • Why pricing transformation is a governance and commercial capability challenge, not just a technology project • The growing importance of explainable, transparent pricing If your business is exploring AI pricing, this conversation may change the questions leadership teams should be asking before implementation.

This episode of the Pricing Transformation series explores the "hidden" complexity that often undermines B2B pricing strategies. Using the recent increase in Australia Post fuel surcharges as a real-world anchor, Joanna Wells discusses how small, reactive commercial decisions—like freight recovery fees and tactical discounts—eventually create an unmanageable system. Key Takeaways The "Headline Rate" Illusion: Many B2B businesses believe they have fixed pricing, but "stable headline rates" often mask a chaotic reality of off-matrix deals and manual adjustments. Industrial Plumbing Metaphor: Pricing systems are compared to old plumbing, where layers of temporary fixes and "patched-in" rules eventually make it impossible to understand the actual price flow. The Trust Deficit: Complexity doesn't just hurt margins; it erodes trust. When customers (and employees) can no longer understand the logic behind a price, they perceive it as unfair or opportunistic. Control vs. Structure: The real challenge for B2B leaders isn't choosing between "fixed" or "dynamic" pricing, but rather regaining control over a system that has become "unofficially" dynamic and operationally buried. Episode Chapters [01:03] The Illusion of Price Stability: Why modern B2B pricing is often much more complex than the contract suggests. [01:29] The Complexity Beneath the Surface: A look at the "moving parts" like rebates and freight adjustments that distort margins. [03:17] The "Industrial Plumbing" of Pricing: How pricing structures become cluttered and inefficient over time. [04:52] Operational Reality vs. The Pricing Model: The gap between the intended pricing strategy and actual team behavior. [06:14] The Human Side: Trust and Fairness: Why perceived fairness is a critical component of a successful pricing strategy. [07:22] The Real Debate: Control and Visibility: Shifting the focus from pricing models to operational transparency. Does the idea that your business might be running an "unofficial" dynamic pricing system resonate with what you're seeing in your daily operations?

In today's episode, we want to explore the world of startups and I supposed at Taylor Wells we got asked or approach by quite a few startup businesses and the early stages of development with questions about pricing advice and pricing strategy and how start-ups should price. And I suppose we just really want to explore some of those ideas today and maybe just discuss some ideas. TIME-STAMPED NOTES: [00:00] Introduction [03:00] What's our advice on issues regarding pricing for start-ups? [12:19] How can we advice start-ups in discovering value in pricing? [16:57] Would you advice implementing various pricing strategies for start-ups? [22:01] Pricing Advice For Start-ups: Don't lose data. Keep learning, testing, and trialling. Pricing Advice for Start-ups to Kick-start Their Growth Especially quite recently. We've had a number of questions and inquiries from startups. And we're talking about startups, people that are literally coming up with new business ideas. And often, it's the first time that they've done that and they're trying to launch either a new product. Now, this could be ranging from, you know, an FMCG good product or you know even a Saas type product and you know, they come with legitimate concerns often they've heard the podcast and there's thought, you know what, I never really considered any other approach to pricing, other than thinking about costs and putting a markup on the cost to give me that margin that I need to cover my costs and get revenue in through the door. And I never really thought about value-based pricing but it really did change my viewpoint, not just on the price point, but also it gave me a new perspective on what I'm trying to do in the market, my business model, how I'm going to generate revenue, what the sources of value are that are going to help me do that and cover my cost, how I'm going to work with suppliers who my target customers are. All these new and very important ideas came almost flooding in people's heads after thinking about value-based pricing and, you know, we just going to explore today, you know, a little bit more about pricing for startups and a few techniques just to help people make those first few steps because it doesn't have to be a difficult journey or long drawn-out journey, you can start pricing immediately, even though sometimes you think "God I've got so much else to do. I'm just going to get money through the door", type of approach. It's clearly, you know, we're not gonna go into cost-plus pricing on this podcast, but clearly for a start-up, it's even more exacerbated. You know, if you make one item, you know they're your cost base is going to be higher than if you make a thousand. So, you know, as you grow in scale, do you intend to reduce prices? So, that makes no sense. But clearly a start-up even number of issues that will make pricing more difficult: A) there is no right price for your product. At the beginning, you don't know what a value provides to your customers you might have an idea, you might have you know obviously you've got your pitch deck and you've got your ballpark figure and your idea, your elevator pitch let's say, you know and you thought about why you're getting into the business and where you fit in the niche. But realistically what's that old saying? Everyone's got a plan until they're partially on the nose. I think Mike Tyson said and you know until you go out there and made customers and really get into the market you don't really know, you look at statistics, how many companies, how many start-ups pivot? How many really hit a niche and really make money it's limited obviously we don't want to put people off from starting up but you know those things have to be borne in mind and when you're looking at pricing, that is the issue. They are, you don't have enough information at the beginning, there's no saying that trying to get some customers, trying to get out there with some customers. Realistically, I don't think the price of the beginning, we'll get into this a bit later, but just winning customers is very important. Because then, you can explore value, it's a value discovery process. Almost look at it as a subsidized value discovery process where a customer is almost paying you, it may be too much, or it maybe too little, but hopefully they're paying you and then you can explore and learn about your own business. So that's the first thing I'd say, clearly, It's very important to get customers on board. The second thing I say, unless you have funding and we'll talk about, you know, series A or a large amount of funding, it is highly unlikely to have a pricing manager. Let's be honest. Most startups at the beginning have very limited revenue, and a good pricing manager's salary probably will be quite expensive. So, you're going to be doing an ad hoc, you'll be doing it in-house. Probably the startup. The founder would be doing the pricing and so, you know how much attention you can really give the pricing at the beginning is limited. I totally disagree with the point that, you know, people often come into the business with a really good plan. In my experience even consulting with major corporates, medium-sized businesses, even you know, blue chip companies, often the surprising point is they don't even have a plan when it comes to pricing or even their business strategy. What they've actually got is a very flimsy outline of what they kind of want to do. Often the key question of, Why are we selling this product? How do our customers value this product? How do they perceive and value us? What are important in the eyes of our customers? How good are we at delivering what customers value? Are things that are hot, not addressed in, I would say, 98% of business strategies, even though that's the most important questions you should be asking. So, I would say, most startups don't have a plan either to be fair. And really, there's a little bit of hope and a prayer that this product, this new business is going to solve a gap in the market without actually, as Aidan said, approaching customers and seeing, you know, giving it that, you know, testing our assumptions. Pricing Advice For Start-ups: Testing out, let's call it a hypothesis about what we think we've got and how valuable that is, in the eyes of our customers. Because essentially, if you're going to get investment from private equity, seed investors, they'll be asking that. I mean, because it's the central aspect of a business, a new business model and operation system or it should be. And if you haven't got clear answers on that, you're not going to get the funding and that brings me back to what I was saying before. You know, a lot of startups have come to us and even with you talking about value-based pricing, it made us think about value. And it made us think that there was that major Gap in our business thinking, and our strategy, which has, in turn, delayed other things, not just pricing, but even you know, how we go and approach, our customers, our pitch, what do we say to them? You know, what is that compelling message? All of these things, you know, were sort of underbaked and then have been preventing people from launching. So like Aidan was saying, let's go back to basics. Let's ask and turn these questions into hypotheses and start going back and thinking about who our target market is. Can we think about the personas of these customers, that would want to buy the products we're trying to sell? How are we going to communicate that offer to them? How are we going to make it easy for them to buy from us? Now, these are the questions, like you're not going to have the answers and don't fear not having all of the answers. When you approach your customers, the key here is to have some hypotheses in mind about what you're doing, and what the value of the offer is, right? When you go in to speak with a customer. But then ask the questions and then listen. Listen, very very carefully to what they're saying to you. What you will find, is that some customers that you're talking to are really not your target market. Even though you thought they were whereas other people really are potentially changing your viewpoint on your initial business model and plan and then iterating from there. This is the fundamental aspect of value-based pricing and as Aidan mentioned we call it a value discovery process, but really it's essential. It's an activity that leads to profitable revenue growth and it's one that's often ignored and skipped but it's the central aspect of any pricing model and of any business strategy. Pricing Advice For Start-ups: Let's be honest at the beginning. For anyone who's ever started a business, every single interaction with a customer, feels like life and death. You know, you stressed about them. You dig into too much, you know, all those are those interactions statistically valid, you know, is it over time when you scale up your business, you know, will that apply across a larger number of customers? Those questions have to be decided. I suppose at the beginning you have to have a ballpark figure. As to what value you're providing, you know, are you aiming to be the cheapest in the market and undercut traditional operators because of your cost of operation, you know, is that your model? If that is the case, likely, then you probably will be cheaper if you're cutting costs; if you're value-added or you're cutting costs? If you're value-added that you're offering, we're more features and benefits, you know, then you probably can be charged more than other people. Big questions. Should you be going into the SAAS situation? So many startups, Online businesses try to get onto a subscription. There's a huge movement towards recurring revenue, showing recurring revenue. You have to really think. Does that suit your business? Is that really the type of business that you want to be operating? It gives investors confidence but you know, is it actually plausible into what you're doing? So that also has to be considered. I suppose you're fundamentally, you have to really dig into what your business do. And what is the best way to charge for it? Just pick the best that you can think of at the beginning. Over time of course you can optimise, you can go into it once you get more professionalised, once one customer becomes ten, becomes one hundred and hopefully becomes thousands. Then over time, you can start to optimise potentially bringing pricing expertise and pricing analyst over time and optimise that stuff. But you know you really got to think about what you know, I suppose companies will go through different strategies at different periods of their life cycle and development, you know, at the beginning. Are you trying to grow your market share? Are you trying to get some sort of like give us good network effects? I'm assuming that you'll be wanting to try and grow the business and potentially to try and grow. You might be offering freemiums, or you might be offering lower quality, you know, tester versions of that. So again, all have to be considered, but you have to be, I suppose you put on the old saying a cart before the horse. You know, what are you actually trying to sell? That's the fundamental thing, pricing is not, it doesn't separate, it is your commercial strategy. And the point I'm trying to make is, what is your business trying to do? In an ideal world, let's say, obviously you're not going to do everything perfectly but is trying to do something and then once it's doing that and a customer is, you know, bought into that and want that service or product or whatever it is, you know, how are you, what's the best way to charge that customer for that while some shaving, your objectives of growing, you know, over kidding solvent until your next funding round? You know, that is the question. I mean, you make a good point that you know, is a value discovery for one or two customers statistically valid? Obviously not, it wouldn't be, but it gives you a starting point. And I think it's an important point to note here, that value discovery is ongoing, it never stops. You've constantly got to do it. Pricing Advice For Start-ups: So it's important that you don't lose track of the data and the insights that you learn from different customers, as you approach them, in terms of understanding value. So actually, in a way, it's a very scientific approach to understanding value and has to be set up as such for it to be meaningful in a statistical way. And to give you insights that inform your strategy over time in regards to, when I was listening to Aidan there, you know, I agree, though there is certainly an evolution of pricing methodology that Startups and even big businesses, go through, starting with the rudimentary cost plus, knowing your cost and adding a simplistic markup going through that competitive benchmarking scenario. When you line up all your competitors' prices and then you go, "I think I'm going to be somewhere around here", so you go, you pick lowest-highest and you go, "All right, I'm going to be here in this bit in this price bandwidth". That's what they call it. I'm not going to evaluate these methodologies will do that later on. And if you listen to other podcasts, you probably have heard us evaluate them. I just talked about evolution and then I think Aidan was going on about SAAS businesses, using subscription models, now that's a revenue model. But the pricing methodology that tends to be adopted within that revenue model is called attribute-based pricing where they do look at the features and benefits of the product or plan and then they set their different price tiers. You know, good-better-best essentially or decoy pricing based on those features and benefits, you know, evolution from there, you know, obviously got Dynamic pricing looking at, you know, inventory and capacity utilisation and demand and forecasting, and things like that. And then in terms of evolutions of the subscription model, they go into like consumption-based pricing, where basically, you charge customers for how much they use different plans, that's becoming particularly popular at the moment, and then from there, you know, a more sophisticated one is based on outcome-based pricing, but basically what a customer gets from using your service, your plan, your product. Now, that's a newer one. And all of these as Aidan says, it's not like "Oh, that sounds good. I think we'll just use that .", even though 90% of SAAS businesses do that, they just go with trends. Pricing Advice For Start-ups: You have to be very careful which one you choose because each have their limitations and it takes a hell of a lot of time and effort to integrate them successfully within the business model. And if they're out of sync with the market and the business model, they're not going to generate profitable revenue growth, then, in turn, you're actually going to lose probably more money than you make and overtime. So you've got to be right. And this is why Aidan was talking about pricing expertise. It's quite important to get that pricing expertise on board, but obviously, as a startup, you've got to be aware of the strengths and weaknesses of these different pricing methodologies. And what we're trying to say is, the best way of doing that is, understanding your business model, thinking very closely and how it connects with the market. And then thinking about, how you're going to capitalise on the value that you're offering based on the perceptions of the market, your customers and how they perceive and use that value. What do they get from working with you, in a very simplistic way. From buying your product and working with you, how did they perceive value? And what value do they actually generate in terms of, you know, do you help them lower cost, do you help them generate more revenue, I'm using your plan, your products, whatever. Are you helping mitigate some risk in a way for them? And those sorts of questions really give you a head start, when it comes to evaluating the best pricing model for your business. I think everyone when you're starting a business clearly you have to be a jack of all trades. You want to know a little bit about everything. But the thing about pricing is, I suppose people come and they go "Oh tell me, a pricing strategy" and we hear that a lot. The reality of it is, there's no right or wrong pricing strategy. There are many potential strategies you could implement. Some may be better than others clearly, obviously, how you implement them. There's some science behind that, there are approaches, but you could have meant for many businesses. Pricing Advice For Start-ups: You can Implement various strategies particularly when they were a very early stage. When they haven't proven anything you could tweak certain things in the trajectory that business will go in that are very different. So you could pick different ones at the beginning. Clearly, because they're not tested by the market, they haven't got many users and you haven't got feedback. Clearly, some are more likely to be successful than others. And you have to visit. There's an art to picking that one. You know, the actual pricing strategy that commercial strategy used. Clearly, a lot depends on so many moving parts, you know your funding, you know, do your funding, or do you have to actually make profits from day one and grow boost route. You know, you look at MailChimp. I think they never took on funding and grew pretty much organically by being profitable and then adding additional features over time, but not, you know, jumping massively, just growing gradually, Canva, probably the most famous Australian unicorn, fundamentally they grew at the beginning, by giving free service to huge numbers of people. I don't know what percentage of people who use that platform actually pay for it, I read, I think it's in the papers this week, that it seems implausible, but apparently is true. Every month over 1% of the world's adult population uses canvas which does seem unbelievable. But apparently, those are statistics. So clearly they're not all paying for this service but a significant proportion are. So you know you're thinking clearly they had funding and a lot of these startups are clearly lost making for many years. You're thinking, Amazon, you're thinking Uber, they're clearly lost making for a very long period of time. Pricing Advice For Start-ups: Until you know, the investors are confident that market share, skill, efficiencies, economies of scale all that stuff will factor in later, you know. So those questions have to be asked and if your business needs skill to operate, to be profitable in three years time, then clearly you need to grow that scale and potentially, it could be, you know, using pricing strategies such as you know, skimming or like being even a loss leader or, you know, going in cheap and then over time adding additional services. And you know upselling, so really look, the answer is,it really depends, but it all stems back to the beginning to having a clear view as to what your business does, having a rough idea is to what potential value it has and the longer term business model, focus on the business model. And once you have that and confidence and backing in your team behind that business model, then you start charging forward and working out, putting in place, a model that can: a) keep your business solvent long enough until that's achieved and, b) making as much profit as possible along the way. I think those are my comments today. Bottomline: Pricing Advice For Start-ups I like that. Don't be afraid to try new pricing methodologies and revenue models. You've started your business now with a great proposition, you went with it, you're already going in with an experimental sort of mindset, and you're keen to learn. So just do the same thing with your pricing. I actually say, even in big businesses, it's much better to learn quickly and fail quickly. It's okay if you make mistakes, as long as you learn from them, same applies, with startups, just learn and do exactly what you do when you're passionate with your own product when it's very the same mindset apply, so keep doing that and I hope along the way, we've given you some overview of all the different types of approaches that you can take. That value-based approach mixed in with more of the technical sort of methodology that potentially is out there for you to utilise as you experiment and learn. Key to all of this is if you've got a number of different products and plans often, that means there would be different types of pricing approaches and models. You don't always use the same type of approach for everything, that's sort of like when markets are more stable. So, having that creativity and thinking, a very granular level, when you have time about different products because every product has a different type of price sensitivity, and different value profile. Pricing Advice For Start-ups: So you'll find over time that different plans will require a different approach, but you'll learn this. If you just keep on learning and testing and trialling but do so, you don't lose that data. You don't lose all that learning. You apply it, feed it back and you continually update and learn and test and tweak, that really is pricing like it is with product development. It's the same type of thing and same approach. I think overall I'll leave it there. But feel free to ask any more questions about some great feedback from you guys recently. So keen to hear more, well thank you for listening.

In today's episode, we are going to cover something that's very close to our heart. If you just listen to our podcasts, you may think we are just pricing gurus, but we are also incredibly ripped. And so we're going to cover, gym memberships and gym pricing. A subject that I think a lot of people, both consumers and businesses can learn from. So I think we'll let Joanna kick-off. Yeah. But firstly, starting with that, Aidan apparently goes to the gym five times a week. Not so sure. Maybe. Uh, anyway, aside from that gym pricing, gym pricing, now we wanted to speak about that yet. Look, we do go to the gym, but I've actually worked with like a couple of gym companies with pricing. But I don't really see improvement overall in the industry. Like really, Can anyone really think of a gym that has one clear price point for different plans? It seems as if, yeah, they've got millions of different price points. To me it's pricing, chaos and indicative of discretionary pricing led to predominantly by the franchisees, the owners, but more particularly by the individual sales people that are driving that sales. You know, they're sort of dressed up as, you know, personal trainers. They wear the shorts, but really they really go for the hard sell. And like from my experience, going to a gym and working for gyms for pricing. It seems like the maturity of pricing is still dominated by that person who wants a sale for their commission. There's very little price transparency and to my thinking like. Is it fair? Is it very, It's very promotional driven. It's always targeted on, you know, time based, promotions, getting people in , driving traffic to meet a sales quota. I'm thinking very much, it's very similar to like the recruitment model . As a result of doing this over many years, it has led to a lack of trust in gym pricing, a lack of transparency, and you never really know what you're gonna get. And sometimes the plans can even change as well. So you're thinking what's the value of this particular plan? In my opinion, I really don't think I'ved looked at customer segmentation at all well, they're really just driving traffic to get sales through the door for cash flow purposes, and I think it's no wonder that gym profitability is declining as a result. Like to some extent I think , I'm gonna disagree with this. I think, I actually think we can learn a lot from gyms. There's a lot of interesting stuff happening in the way they do stuff. You know, it's a subscription model. Before most things were like, I think it's probably almost impossible to go in and pay just for a workout, in a gym. You know, they'll have an onboarding system and all this sort of stuff, which to be honest, is probably some health and safety aspect to that, but I'm sure it's also just a barrier to actually letting you just, you know, work out once, et cetera. Say if you're, you know, do wanna work out this week and then next week, so they get you on a subscription model, which is almost way before the, the whole SaaS revolution. So where it's a service. They also have a weird, they make it almost impossible, as Joanna mentioned, to compare pricing, virtually no gym will have a, a price on the internet. You have to go in, meet someone, chat to someone, you know, invest time and effort, shoe leather cost before you even get a price. And so your willingness to shop around would be very low, clearly. You probably just go to the first one you get. You get to, you'll decide based on, I don't know what criteria, you know, we'll get into the value drivers, but I think your ability to shop around is low. Unless they really try to rip you off or charge way above market rate. But that aspect, your lack of ability to shop a around or compare is interesting. Also, the promos they offer tend to always be focused on like a fake joining fee. You know, joining fee wave for this week or joining fee 50% for this week. And in reality, joining fee for a gym is clearly preposterous. The joining fee often is so low, it's like maybe $15. It's really just. I think it really is just used as a method to let them advertise something because they don't wanna reduce their subscription fees. The other thing before I pass back to Joanna that I think is very interesting about gyms is they try to price at a level whereby, I think some of the stats we've read, the majority of people don't visit the gym every month. They take out memberships maybe in January or dry July or whatever, whatever the month is where you're on a new health kick and people have all these great aspirations. We're gonna work out every week, you know, and it sounds great value. And then they, of course, human nature. They stop and they don't go back. But then you've gotta think if you know, there's a psychological aspect too. You wanna stop your gym membership cuz in theory that is quitting and giving up. Or do you just wanna keep that aspirational, Oh, I'll start again next week. And so basically they have that subscription model set at a level whereby really , it's almost designed just to be under the radar, not to cost too much pressure on people so that the letter keep ticking along. I don't know what the actual occupancy rate of a gym is based on their, you know, how many the sell, but clearly it's a bit like an airline. Clearly they're selling more tickets than there are seats on the plane. Clearly not everybody can do the, you know, the bench press, et cetera, at the same time. So it's an interesting approach. I think that may be applicable for gyms that don't have many, like gyms within the firm, like they don't have like a large transactional. Sort of capability they may have, you know, a couple of gyms dotted around. Then they're more likely to understand what their price bandwidth is and to get that more optimal price bandwidth that you were talking about, and then promote within that range. However, with gyms with a number of different gyms and franchises within. Or geographically dispersed throughout the country, that may be more tricky, in terms of finding that optimal price bandwidth. And that's what we've learned from research and to the point where, you know, it's very difficult to price shop because there's a lack of transparency. Is that a good thing? I mean, you just have to go on social media and see the reams and reams of complaints about that very topic. And looking at the data, what does that indicate? Yes, they probably attract customers using price point, which is, you know, one could argue with a great thing at the beginning, but then they lose profitability because the customer churn rate is actually quite significant. And although the customer doesn't price shop at the beginning of the journey, because yes, there's pretty much hard sold to the offer. Told to sit down like an naughty boy and girl and fill in their paperwork and pay an additional , membership fee on top. They do so. But then aftera while you know, they do start to shop around because the value of that gym is not appealing anymore. Or the fact that they didn't like the pressure, the price point, and the whole shady aspect of the model. And you can see that in social media and in data the churn rate is huge. And for those type of businesses where they're sort of selling premium type of services, but actually delivering the value in a very shady manner. There's some discrepancy in misalignment, and customers are onto it. On the point of subscription models, I think they're actually quite interesting from a psychological perspective in that for gyms in particular, The fact that it comes out of customer's bank accounts every month could, and research shows could be considered a good thing because it reminds people why they're going to the gym. And in fact, contrary to what you, you, you think even though it's a lower amount of money coming out of the gym, people actually do notice it. And especially in times of inflation where. The first things to go are things like gym memberships because people are under pressure that they're spending less and they're thinking and evaluating consciously, what they're going to spend. So things like newspapers, things like gym memberships, things like software as a service models. They're really gonna be hit. Streaming services, video streaming, music. That's the sort of thing, expenditure that people start to evaluate. And so then when they see it, So the pro of this, the psychological pro is if you actually are committed to your fitness and you see that going out your bank account, you go, yeah, you're reminded to go. However, if you're sort of lack a day or so about your fitness and you see it going out of your bank account, you probably think, Do you know what? I probably will give it a miss. And that's also reflected by the churn rate. Most people fit into that latter segment. The non-committed to gyms except Aidan of course, is highly committed. Which makes you think, Okay, are we charging enough for the, the value that we offer to the more premium segment, the people that do actually value the gym, people that do utilise the gym and get the money's worth. And are we undercharging the other segment. So what I think needs to be , that price value, profit equation still needs to be ironed out, especially for the bigger gym networks. On that point, like I think there is probably more willingness to pay, you know that value discovery. What do people really value in a gym, that aspect? I don't think, you know, I think I've, a couple comments made before I forget them. The first one. I I actually, the payment, they nearly always take a direct debit is something I wanted to add. It's a very, it's almost impossible or not available to pay on invoice in a gym. There's almost an, an entire industry of payment facilitators who basically focus on gyms because a lot of gyms fall below, at least in Australia, fall below the level of where the big banks, the big four banks would allow direct debit facilities. So there's a whole echelon of companies who are in that space just cater for the gym industry. So it's quite interesting that, you know, they're smaller businesses sometimes, you know, mom and pop style and they are direct debiting. So that is interesting. I also believe the fear of direct debit obviously seems a lot in bad collection and It that aspect and improves their cash flow. But I also think if an invoice was arriving every month, people would be much more aware of what they're paying when it goes direct debit, it sometimes goes onto the radar. The thing about value discovery, what do people really value in a gym? Clearly, you know, the tangibles, the number of machines, you know, the weights. Does the gym smell? You know, simple stuff. Is it clean? Is it hygienic? Is it nice? Then there's other stuff. Is it aspirational? You know, is it in a good location? Is it open? What hours of the day? Is it open? Is it 24/7? Can you go in public holidays? Does it open early in the morning? And then other stuff like the real, the value add capability that gyms have, you know, those sort additional, the luxury aspects of like swimming pools and, you know, is it more of a health club. Can you have play racketball like in a movie set in New York, like Wall Street, you know, where Gordon Geco goes to play racketball? I think even the first time I became aware of gyms was, I suppose when we were a kid and you'd see Princess Diana in Britain and she'd be going to this fancy health clubs in Chelsea or wherever it was, or Kensington. And you know, and I'm assuming those gyms are charging top notch, you know, very high prices. I'm assuming they're capturing the value they offer, but are they, are the regular gyms really even digging into that value discovery? You'd have to argue not, but again, because of the lack of clarity on gym pricing, it's hard to know, but what really drives people to, and these things, the drivers probably change. You know, with working from home, there used to be big chains that would, you know, publicised. You can work out in our gym at your, in your suburb. Then you can work out in the gym at lunchtime in the cbd, you know, when you're at home on holidays, you know, if go up to Queensland for sunshine, and winter, you can work out at our gyms there too. Like those drivers have probably decreased with working from home, I assume. And I wonder how that's played around into the different value driver. One aspect I really like about gyms is, you know, we talk about ecosystems and building ecosystems and buyers to entry and ability to upsell. Like in a gym, it's almost like a perfect little enclosed, air conditioned hopefully air conditioned world. And they're always trying to upsell you with personal training, with extra classes, you know, all different things added on, like from massage machines. To body dexa scans and everything else. So it's almost once they'll capture you, they are trying to move you along that sales funnel into the next thing, which is a great opportunity for these businesses. It's almost like being on a cruise ship to some extent. They have you where they want you to some extent, and they can, you know, they can sell you additional stuff. I was just thinking about there, there's actually a proliferation of new types of very niche gyms. Ones like, for instance, I've seen, like for those who really like pump to really into weight lifting, they're appealing to a very target market. Everyone goes there or like into the same thing. They lift way above the average weights, dead lifting and all that sort of stuff. And they choose those gyms very consciously. According to a lot of research out there, even though smaller niche players are using price and promotion, to drive traffic into their gyms because obviously they're reacting to the pressure of, you know, having to pay the bills, mass inflation, churn, because it still happens in those gyms too. So even though they understand the value, sometimes I feel that they're not confident in the value that they offer and often resort to price. And like I say this, like it's a surprise. We see this in every business from B2B to B2C, even when there's a clear and delineated value proposition and people are willing to pay and people do go, there's still that propensity to backtrack and default to price and promotion as a way to drive cash flow 'cause cash flow to smaller businesses, smaller gyms with a niche audience means a lot. And it also means a lot to those sort of big low budget, let's call it sort of maybe more members that go to them, but low budget gyms who maybe we completely ignore. Even looking at value drivers, it seems because they're using price and promotion to drive traffic, they've understood their churn rate to some degree and know that the replacement of that customer is cheap. If they, if they drive more promotions. However, is it really cheap? Could they be nurturing customer lifetime value, their customer base. That would be more profitable, especially at a time like this, I would argue it would. And also, you know, you would give them much better reviews and credibility online and a more sustainable business model. So are they looking for sustainability? Are they looking for, you know, cash, quick cash now and sell on the business? So I feel it's probably the latter for a lot of the budget gyms, they're here today, gone tomorrow, sort of thing and then customers have to find another alternative because they're not truly committed to the gym memberships. And those that are, go to the, the more specialised premium gyms, niche gyms, and unfortunately, they are the people that we should really be thinking about because they're committed. They've been going for a number of years and maybe business owners in that position. Should be really reaticulating reminding their customers, not just through price, but through their marketing and the people that sell their, their plans and offers, through their sales, their marketing, their operations, renewing the gyms and all that sort of thing. The value in use and the value at risk concept. So, I suspect that even with the lady Diana gym, they probably could be charging a lot, but they probably are not charging the full amount optimal price point or exploring that. But I'm hedging my bets there to think that based on what I've seen in gym pricing. Cause I imagine Princess Diana really shopped around for pricing and she really went, she probably did invest quite a few, you know, days in just checking out pricing and could you see if a few pounds here and there? One thing I say about gyms, the ability to charge an upsell, Like there is a large amount there. I know we should talk about the price, consciousness of people, you know, but clearly people care a lot about their fitness. Health is wealth is an old saying and clearly people will pay big money and you can just see that by, you know, these gym, you know, one on one coaching and you'll see people paying, I dunno what it is, I think it's like 60, $70 plus an hour in Sydney to get someone to tell you to do your press-ups. You know, And obviously I'm underplaying what they're really doing there. There's obviously some really good ones and some probably not as great, but if it works, you know, people are willing to spend big money. The other, there's been innovation in the sector in the last couple of years, which is probably. Trying to address some of the, you know, the boredom, the monotony, that aspect that gyms have been criticised. , you know, and we've seen, is it CrossFit, which has been a, a big phenomenon. And then , this other one, um, is the name has just slipped my mind. It's the one promoted by Marky Mark, Mark Wallberg. And it's huge. It's more like individual classes they run. The name just slipped my mind, but you know, the one I'm talking about, it just being on the stock market. The share price has fallen recently, but those have been innovations that are sort of catered more to, I suppose, making it more competitive thing, making it more, you know, bit more camaraderie potentially in the gym to drive people on, you know, to counteract some of those criticisms people have had. But look, it is, gyms are not going go away. You know, I think one of the, even during the Covid restrictions, which we're all trying to forget, one of the things that people really looked forward to when they ended was for a certain percentage of people it was getting back to the gym. Some people wanted to go out for dinner, some people wanted the movies, and a lot of people just wanted to pump some iron. And so that is, gyms will never go away. Clearly there's, it's like a spectrum. , clearly there's a huge opportunity for optimising pricing by tailoring things and all that stuff, but I think it is a sector that we can learn a lot from. And, you know, even small businesses, et cetera, If you're running a business, you know, one gym like that is by definition to small business. But in reality, you're facing a lot of the challenges that a big business has. Also, you know, hundreds, potentially thousands of customers collecting debts from them, offering, tailoring your service to them, competing with other gyms in the local neighborhood. So yeah, it's a microcosm of, I suppose, pricing challenges that even, you know, mega corporations. I suppose just a quick one. I, I was just thinking there that even between the plans that they offer, I find that the price, the pricing is, and the relativity between those, like the difference in pricing between the plans, good-better-best is often very like narrow. Also indicating that really they're thinking about the features and benefits of their plans as opposed to really the full value of, each plan. So that's something that I potentially would address, as a quick and very important fix because when you see that, really, what does that show? It shows a lack of understanding of the basic price and fundamental price model and structure and promotional structure, discount structures are just not there. It's just ad hoc. That's what that indicates. So, you know, that's something potentially to fix. I suppose the last thing that I probably would want to mention here is that there is a clear difference between people that are committed to going to the gym and people that see fitness as part of improving their life, their health, and it's like their medication, that they're committed to a healthier life. Now, I'm not saying here that we overcharge the ones that are committed, but there is a point here of, you know, why, of the people that are not committed here. And what I'm thinking is you can make that market more profitable. Aidan mentioned right at the beginning of this podcast that they have removed sort of that ad hoc usage of gyms. Why is it a highly profitable market if people want to go once or twice? Charge them for it, they're probably willing to pay. And in that way, , they're actually making money from a highly price sensitive and non-committal audience because they want to pay at that point. So what I can see, there's really some really good pricing, quick wins, as well as long term wins that they'll get from building a sustainable value base in customer focus pricing architecture, but a slight changes to the model that won't, disrupt the flow of business and they can make money at the same time. Almost like feel like here we've, even in a tough time, we're still making money and it's profitable. Okay, well I think that's what I'm gonna, what I've got to say on that in the moment. Okay, Thanks. Have a great weekend everyone. Bye.