Sanctuary: Discovering the Temple

This is part two of a two part conversation with Dave. If you have not first listened to part one that was released last week, check that out first!I credit Dave, among others, with playing a significant role in igniting my fascination with the temple. About a year and a half ago, I was introduced to his work, and I was immediately captivated by it. His ideas opened up entirely new ways of seeing the temple and became the catalyst for a deep exploration of our sacred ordinances.Since then, I have felt a steady invitation from God to meet Him in the imaginal realms—to explore new dimensions of meaning in both scripture and the temple. Dave’s work has been a meaningful companion on that journey.In this episode, Dave takes us on a fascinating exploration of the Sermon on the Mount. Matthew 5–7 has long puzzled scholars because this “sermon” does not appear to be a sermon in any conventional sense. The prevailing view is that these chapters are a collection of Christ’s sayings that were remembered and later woven together by the Gospel writer.Dave offers a very different—and deeply intriguing—perspective. An extensive researcher and author of several books (which I’ll link in the show notes), he argues that the Sermon on the Mount, as well as the Book of Mormon, was written by temple initiates for temple initiates. As he guides us through each chapter, he invites us to encounter the mysteries of God in ways that may be entirely new to you.You’re going to want to strap in for this one. It’s dense, rich, and absolutely worth slowing down for. I encourage you to have your scriptures nearby so you can follow along. And honestly, this is one of those conversations that is worth a second listen. There’s so much here to absorb, and Dave offers insights you’ll likely be reflecting on long after the episode ends. This is part 1 of a 2 part episode, so stay tuned for the second half, you won’t want to miss it.Dave Butler is a writer, publisher, and speaker with a passion for scripture, the temple, and storytelling. He is the Editor-in-Chief of Plain and Precious Publishing and the author of more than twenty novels. He is especially known for his work on the Book of Mormon as temple literature. He believes many of its deepest teachings become clearer when read through the lens of temple experience, and he has written several books exploring this idea, including Plain and Precious Things, The Goodness and the Mysteries, and In the Language of Adam.Dave has shared his research through podcasts, conferences, and speaking engagements. He lives in Utah with his wife and children and enjoys playing guitar and banjo.Subscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

This episode has been a long time coming. More than any other topic, our community has asked questions about the Divine Feminine and Heavenly Mother. There is so much to explore, especially in relation to the temple, and I hope this is the first of many conversations on the subject.Many of us feel the absence of the feminine in our stories, symbols, and ordinances. Years ago, I began my own search for the Divine Feminine, and I’ve found that She is far more present than I once realized.Katherine has spent the last decade studying and seeking Heavenly Mother. Her book, The Mother Tree, is one of the best works I’ve read on this topic, and I couldn’t recommend it more.In this episode, Katherine explains that the feminine is often veiled—not missing, but hidden. Discovering her takes faith, patience, and consistent seeking. But she is there for anyone who wants to know her, and as her children, it is our birthright to seek and know our Mother.We discuss temple symbols that may point to the Divine Feminine, Wisdom as a feminine archetype, the Tree of Life, and the connection between Heavenly Mother and nature. We also touch on how the female deity was removed from the ancient Israelite temple tradition, and how Christ—born of both Father and Mother—can help us come to know her more fully.I hope this conversation offers insight, comfort, and an invitation to keep seeking.Kathryn Knight Sonntag is the author of The Mother Tree (Faith Matters Foundation, 2022), winner of The 2022 BIBA Literary Award in Non-Fiction: Religion, The Tree at the Center (BCC Press, 2019), and No Sudden Bright Way (Orison Books, forthcoming). Her poems have appeared in Sugar House Review, Image, Colorado Review, and the anthology Blossom as the Cliffrose (Torrey House Press, 2021), among other places. She works as a landscape architect and serves as the poetry editor for Wayfare.Get The Mother Tree from Amazon.Read more of Kathryn’s work at wayfaremagazine.org.Subscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

Something I have wrestled with in my own faith journey is how I can simultaneously feel such a strong witness of restored gospel truths and ordinances while also recognizing immense truth and beauty in other religions. In this conversation, Dave shares his journey of developing a deep love and appreciation for all faith traditions, and how embracing other religions has not threatened his own faith but has actually deepened and informed it. Together, we explore ritual as a means of connecting to the divine, forming our identity, and discovering the common threads of ritual across faith traditions—something Dave attributes to God inspiring people “in their own language and symbols.”One temple teaching I love is the invitation to participate in God’s work of circumscribing all truth into one great whole. Joseph Smith was a seeker of all truth and implored us to be the same. This conversation felt like an opportunity to reach wider, embracing more truth and, ultimately, more of humanity within the arms of our faith. Dave offers a vision of rooting ourselves deeply in our faith while also reaching far and wide to gather all of God’s children to the table. I am finding that, rather than separating us from the rest of humanity, temple worship invites us into deeper communion with the whole human family and our shared longing to encounter the divine.David Butler is a speaker, author, and storyteller who helps people see faith and scripture in fresh, hopeful ways. Through teaching, tours, and creative faith projects, he invites others along to discover wonder, grace, and a deeper love for God.Follow Dave on Instagram Listen to Dave’s podcast Don’t Miss ThisEnroll in Dave’s Holy Envy courseExplore Dave’s toursSubscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

Matt is a strong believer in developing an understanding of the biblical temple to increase our temple literacy, and he has dedicated most of his life’s work to studying this very thing. This episode felt like a continuation of my previous conversation with Josh Matson. Matt helps us explore more deeply the similarities and differences between the modern LDS temple and the ancient Israelite temple.Something I deeply value is the ability to hold space for differences in cultures and religions while recognizing the validity in all of them. I love that this is something Matt truly stands for in his work. Sometimes, as humans, it can make us uncomfortable to observe differences in our core experiences and beliefs. But I believe in a God who reaches all of Their children and wants us all to sit at the table together.My biggest takeaway from this episode was the reminder that expanding my knowledge prepares me to receive revelation—which is ultimately the intention behind the entire temple experience. It is a gift and message received by revelation and is best understood through revelation. If Sanctuary offers you anything, I hope it helps prepare you to experience your own sacred, divine encounter.Matthew J. Grey is a professor of ancient scripture and the coordinator of the ancient Near Eastern studies program at Brigham Young University. He researches the material culture of daily life in Roman Palestine and for over twenty years has been involved in archaeological excavations, research, and publications relating to the world of the New Testament.Subscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

As we began preparing to create the Sanctuary podcast, one of our goals was to offer a resource for those preparing to attend the temple for the first time. We wanted to have a straightforward conversation about what you can expect in the endowment ceremony and provide some context to help you begin understanding the purpose behind these sacred rituals.In this episode, Jasmin and I zoom out and take a bird’s-eye view of the “covenant path.” She helps us begin to see the greater message and pattern that is unfolding, and how the different ordinances connect to one another. I was inspired to have this conversation with Jasmin after hearing a comment she once made: “The endowment covenants are deeper iterations of baptismal covenants.”If you—or someone you love—is preparing to receive their endowment for the first time, this episode is for you. I remember wishing that someone had walked me through what happens in the endowment ceremony, like Jasmin does in this episode, before I went through the temple for the first time. Sometimes, simply knowing what to expect can make something as big and magnificent as the temple experience feel more approachable. At the same time, as Jasmin mentions in this episode, there is also something to be said for leaning into the mystery and surrendering to the experience.Come learn about God’s invitation to become kings and queens, priests and priestesses—and how taking on Christ by emulating Him is the process through which we move toward this eternal destiny.Jasmin Rappleye is a social media content creator, where she focuses on addressing challenging Latter-day Saint beliefs, history, and news. She has a degree from Brigham Young University in Ancient Near Eastern Studies and has a passion for sharing her faith online. She was the former Director of Communications at Scripture Central and is now on the Executive Committee of the Ancient America Foundation and Faith Creators Alliance.Follow Jasmin on Instagram here.Follow Jasmin on Youtube here.Listen to Jasmin’s podcast here.Subscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

I was so grateful to have the pleasure to speak with Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife for this episode.. This conversation is another exploration of covenants, but from the framework of the stages of development. This episode begins with Jennifer introducing the three stages of development she describes in her work, and from there she helps us get a feel for how we might relate to God’s laws based on the current stage of development we are operating in. I love that Jennifer emphasizes that value of each stage, whilst also holding a vision for what is possible, both for the individual and the community. We planned to work through all of the covenants, but this ended up being a conversation largely on obedience and what it might look like to have an evolving relationship with it.I myself have witnessed an evolution of how I relate to my faith and discipleship over the years, and this information has really helped me to better understand the developmental journey that I’m on, and to look forward to what it is I’m moving into. I feel it is so valuable to learn that there are new ways we might experience our faith and relationship with God.This felt like a perfect moment to share this conversation as we are exploring obedience in Come, Follow Me this week. I hope you love it as much as I did.Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife is an LDS relationship and sexuality coach with a Ph.D. in Counseling Psychology. She is the author of That We Might Have Joy: Desire, Divinity, and Intimate Love and the creator of six online courses that help individuals and couples create happier lives and stronger intimate relationships. She also hosts Room for Two, a popular sex and intimacy podcast, and is a regular guest on LDS-themed podcasts discussing relationships, faith, and sexuality.Find Jennifer’s book here.Find Jennifer’s courses and podcasts here.Subscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

This conversation with Jennifer was especially meaningful to me because it explores embodiment, a pillar of my personal spirituality. Jennifer beautifully explains how our ordinances teach us the necessity of embodiment in discipleship. We perform ordinances with our bodies to symbolize that the spiritual journey requires more than intellectual belief—it calls for our whole selves. As Jennifer says, “Salvation isn’t a mental assent to a concept”; it is a lived journey that engages body, heart, mind, and spirit.I was deeply moved by how Christ-centered this conversation felt. Jennifer helps us see how the ordinances of the restored gospel invite us into the sacred process of “putting on Christ.” We discuss how our will and desires part the veil, allowing God’s power to flow into us and truly transform us. We also reflect on the garment of the holy priesthood as another profound symbol of embodiment—one that teaches us about our divine identity and mission.I hope this conversation inspires you to embrace this incredible gift God is offering us with your whole self and ignites a fire in you to take part in this great work of gathering Israel. I know it did for meJennifer C. Lane is a professor emerita of Religious Education at BYU–Hawaii, where she taught for nearly twenty years and served as Dean and Associate Academic Vice President for Curriculum. She earned a PhD in Religion from Claremont Graduate University and holds MA and BA degrees from BYU. After returning to Provo with her husband, Keith, she served as a Neal A. Maxwell Research Associate at BYU’s Neal A. Maxwell Institute. She continues to research and write on temples, holiness, and discipleship and is the author of Let’s Talk about Temples and Ritual and Finding Christ in the Covenant Path: Ancient Insights for the Modern World.Find Jennifer’s book, Finding Christ on the Covenant Path, which we referenced here.Read Jennifer’s article “Embodied Knowledge of God” here.Subscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

I’m so excited to share this beautiful conversation I had with Jenet Erickson with you. Being just a few days away from Christmas, this felt like the perfect episode to share because it feels like it is just drenched in Jesus.Jenet Erickson is an associate professor in Religious Education at Brigham Young University and a research fellow of the Institute for Family Studies and the Wheatley Institute. She received a PhD in Family Social Science from the University of Minnesota, after completing a bachelor’s degree in Nursing, and master’s degree in Linguistics at BYU. Jenet and her husband, Michael, have been blessed with two children. She has been a columnist on family issues for the Deseret News since 2013.This conversation is an exploration of family and relationship, and why they sit at the very heart of God’s Great Work. Jenet states that “relationships are the core of flourishing. We are designed for love, we are designed for connection, we are designed to be in deep relationships.” We reflect on the vulnerability that comes with being in relationship, and yet how God invites us into ever deepening intimacy with Him and with one another. Jenet draws on temple symbols to help us better understand who God is and the kind of relationship He is inviting us into.My ultimate takeaway from this precious conversation with Jenet is that we worship a God who cuts through all. Who will let nothing stand in His way, parting every barrier to meet His children exactly where they are. As Jenet says, “This is a love that will not let us go.”Wishing each of you a Merry Christmas, and wishing you a moment to cut through all of the noise to find a moment of peace and connection with our Savior.Listened to Jenet’s BYU devotional I referenced here. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

James is a fascinating human and Latter-day Saint, and brings a truly unique perspective to our faith. In his words, his family is Jewish on one side, Sikh on the other, and Mormon in the middle. He works as a historian for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and is also a poet, novelist, essayist, playwright, documentary filmmaker, scholar, and translator. He’s won the Association for Mormon letters awards in the Drama, Novel, and Creative Nonfiction categories, and has been a finalist in the Poetry and Criticism categories. He’s also one of a rotating cast of scholars on BYUtv’s Come Follow Up series. He is a frequent contributor to Wayfare and a co-author of the book Latter-day Sikh. It was such a joy to sit down with James and talk temple. We begin by exploring his unique blend of Jewish, Sikh, and Mormon heritage, and how that has influenced his experience of ritual and sacred space in an LDS context. James speaks to the value of encountering ritual in other faiths as a way to prepare for the temple, as well as the role of religious imagination and the transformative power of fully inhabiting a story. We weave through stories, personal experiences, and poetry in our exploration of the temple journey.My ultimate take away is that when we let the temple bleed out into every part of our life and who we are, every moment becomes the journey back to God. Life becomes the temple journey. As James says, “The temple is the invitation to develop eyes to see the holiness everywhere; that’s the spirit of endowment.”Find James’ new book Latter-day Sikh at Deseret Book Find James’ poetry collection Phoenix Song anywhere you buy books onlineFind Song of Names wherever you buy books online.Follow James on Substack at jamesgoldberg.substack.com This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

Melinda W. Brown is an author and educator with a master’s degree in Christian Practice from Duke Divinity School, where she focused on Christian Education. She is the author of Eve and Adam: Discovering the Beautiful Balance (Deseret Book, 2020) and An Endowment of Love: Embracing Christ’s Covenant Way of Living and Loving.In this episode, Mindy and I drop into the heart of the temple and what we believe God is intending to do in our lives through the temple. We explore what becomes possible when we move away from a “duty-bound, transactional” approach to God and the covenants we make with Him, and instead really see covenants for what they are—a deepening of relationship with Him and with each other.We explore the value of involving the body in the act of temple rituals when making commitments to God, how to “mine symbols for new meanings”, and the reality that the temple might not be the place you feel God’s love most.Ultimately, we both believe that the temple experience isn’t about earning Heaven in the future, but about teaching us how to experience Heaven here and now.You can find Mindy’s book An Endowment of Love: Embracing Christ’s Covenant Way of Living and Loving on Amazon or at Deseret Book. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

Sanctuary: Discovering the Temple is a new podcast from Faith Matters where we hold curious, open, & honest conversations as we explore and re-discover the temple together. In this short introductory episode, host Larkin Swain welcomes you to the project and gives a brief explanation of her background. We would love to hear from you! Email [email protected] with your questions and suggestions. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org