Sanctuary: Discovering the Temple

I chose to begin this season with Mandy’s episode because I felt it so beautifully captured the heart of what I hoped this next chapter would be.The temple was never meant to be the final destination. Rather, it was meant to initiate us into a journey of becoming something more—of encountering our God and discovering our own Divine Nature in ever-deepening ways.Joseph Smith had a dream and vision that each of us might have our own face-to-face encounter with God. That is a radical vision, one I believe in. But the kind of encounter we are called into will require much of us—nothing less than everything.Each of us is invited to ascend that mountain. As Mandy said, there may be some clawing and scrambling up steep cliffs along the way, but the vistas awaiting us are beyond what we can now imagine.Let’s embark on that journey and discover those vistas together.Mandy holds a Master’s degree from Duke Divinity School and an undergraduate degree in Humanities from Brigham Young University. Her deep appreciation for the arts and scripture creates beautiful connections permeating every aspect of her scholarly and personal life.Academically, Mandy explores the rich theological territories of the Divine Feminine and Mary Magdalene, with rigor and spiritual insight. Her ongoing study of Biblical Hebrew and Koine Greek, enables her to examine scriptural texts with greater proximity to their original languages and cultural contexts.She shares her extensive learning through classes at Project Illumination, leading educational tour groups across diverse global destinations with Forbidden Adventures, and writing and producing her podcast, “Reflecting Light.”Mandy currently resides in Utah, where she continues her scholarly and educational endeavors, and maintains a modest collection of flamingo memorabilia.Mandy’s website.Mandy’s podcast.Mandy’s tours.Purchase her illustrated retelling of The Hymn of the Pearl here.Subscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

Joseph Smith’s vision for the saints was that we would each have our own visionary encounter with God and see Him face-to-face. Season 2 of Sanctuary will begin a deeper exploration of what it means to BECOME a temple, and encounter God to greater and greater degrees.(Don’t worry, there will also still be a lot of the same Season 1 style content!)Thank you a million times for all of the support you have shown the show. It means the world to me.Can’t wait to dig deeper with you. Season 2 of Sanctuary coming to you this fall 🤍 This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

I credit Dave, among others, with playing a significant role in igniting my fascination with the temple. About a year and a half ago, I was introduced to his work, and I was immediately captivated by it. His ideas opened up entirely new ways of seeing the temple and became the catalyst for a deep exploration of our sacred ordinances.Since then, I have felt a steady invitation from God to meet Him in the imaginal realms—to explore new dimensions of meaning in both scripture and the temple. Dave’s work has been a meaningful companion on that journey.In this episode, Dave takes us on a fascinating exploration of the Sermon on the Mount. Matthew 5–7 has long puzzled scholars because this “sermon” does not appear to be a sermon in any conventional sense. The prevailing view is that these chapters are a collection of Christ’s sayings that were remembered and later woven together by the Gospel writer.Dave offers a very different—and deeply intriguing—perspective. An extensive researcher and author of several books (which I’ll link in the show notes), he argues that the Sermon on the Mount, as well as the Book of Mormon, was written by temple initiates for temple initiates. As he guides us through each chapter, he invites us to encounter the mysteries of God in ways that may be entirely new to you.You’re going to want to strap in for this one. It’s dense, rich, and absolutely worth slowing down for. I encourage you to have your scriptures nearby so you can follow along. And honestly, this is one of those conversations that is worth a second listen. There’s so much here to absorb, and Dave offers insights you’ll likely be reflecting on long after the episode ends. This is part 1 of a 2 part episode, so stay tuned for the second half, you won’t want to miss it.Dave Butler is a writer, publisher, and speaker with a passion for scripture, the temple, and storytelling. He is the Editor-in-Chief of Plain and Precious Publishing and the author of more than twenty novels. He is especially known for his work on the Book of Mormon as temple literature. He believes many of its deepest teachings become clearer when read through the lens of temple experience, and he has written several books exploring this idea, including Plain and Precious Things, The Goodness and the Mysteries, and In the Language of Adam.Dave has shared his research through podcasts, conferences, and speaking engagements. He lives in Utah with his wife and children and enjoys playing guitar and banjo.Subscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

As a lover of poetry, I was especially excited to bring Darlene Young on for a conversation about two passions close to my heart. One day, I was struck by the realization that poetry and the temple feel deeply similar to me. Both feel like crossing a threshold — moving from the concrete into the abstract, the mundane into the sacred, mortality into eternity. Darlene has an extraordinary gift for capturing these realities in her poetry and drawing readers into the space where the two meet.In this conversation, we explore the possibility of heaven in the here and now — in ordinary life — as well as how approaching the temple the way we might approach poetry can open us more fully to the gift being offered there. We talk about progression, yearning, and what Eve might teach us about navigating the tension between hungering for more while also learning to trust in our inherent wholeness.Like poetry, the temple can feel deeply open-ended. In a mind-driven culture that often seeks safety in definitive answers, what might it look like to develop the capacity to sit within that openness, allow it to work on us, and begin learning not only with our minds, but also with our bodies and hearts? I have found profound transformative potential in leaning into and embracing the mystery, something I feel the temple continuously invites me into.You can meet and learn from Darlene Young, Thomas McConkie, Kathryn Knight Sonntag, James Goldberg, George Handley, Meghan Farner and more at the Wayfare Festival on July 11 in Heber City Utah! You can learn more and RSVP here, and take 20% off the regular ticket price with code SANCTUARY.Darlene Young is the author of three poetry collections (Count Me In, Here, and Homespun and Angel Feather), two of which have won the Association for Mormon Letters’ awards for poetry. She is a past resident of the New York City arts residency sponsored by the Center for Latter-Day Saint Arts and a recipient of the Smith-Pettit Foundation Award for Outstanding Contribution to Mormon Letters. Darlene teaches writing at Brigham Young University and has served as poetry editor for Dialogue and Segullah journals. Her work has been noted in Best American Essays and nominated for Pushcart Prizes. She lives in South Jordan, Utah. Find more about her at darlene-young.com.Subscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

As a feminist and lifelong member of the LDS faith, Deidre brings an important voice to this community. In this episode, she shares her own temple journey, which—like mine—began with challenges but ultimately evolved into something deeply meaningful. She describes the temple as a space that empowers her as a woman and expresses her belief that it holds a vision of who women truly are and who God is inviting them to become.In the second half of the episode, we explore the garment. Deidre has drawn fascinating meaning from it, some of which we discuss here. I highly recommend reading her article for Wayfare, where she delves more deeply into this topic—it was an impactful read for me. She speaks about the garment as a symbol of the veil and suggests that, in wearing it, we are perpetually standing before the veil, declaring, “Here I am,” and communicating to God our openness, trust, and willingness to submit to His will. Step by step, God has drawn me into this holy surrender, transforming me and setting me free in more ways than I can express.Deidre Green is Assistant Professor of Latter-day Saint/Mormon Studies at the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley, California. She is the author of multiple books, chapters, and articles related to feminist theology, Kierkegaard, and Mormon Studies. Deidre co-edited with Eric Huntsman Latter-day Saint Perspectives on Atonement (University of Illinois Press, 2024) and authored Jacob: A Brief Theological Introduction.Read Deidre’s Wayfare article on Garments here.Subscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

In this conversation, Josh walks us through the pattern of the ancient tabernacle and Solomon’s temple, helping us begin to understand what temple worship and sacrifice looked like for the ancient Israelites. Gaining an understanding of what the temple experience was like anciently has really helped to enrich my relationship with our modern temple. I was struck by both the similarities and the differences in how we relate to the temple today. Josh breaks down the various types of sacrificial rites the Israelites performed and shows how they are more similar to our modern law of sacrifice than we might expect.These were people who faced the same challenge we face today: how to move beyond outward performance and truly offer our whole heart and soul to the Lord. Josh teaches that, in the end, the only thing we can really offer God is our will. God invites us into the experience of sacrifice and repentance—a journey that both transforms and liberates, a journey back to Eden. And all that is needed to begin is our desireJoshua M. Matson is an assistant professor in the Department of Ancient Scripture at Brigham Young University, with an appointment to the Jerusalem Center for Near Eastern Studies. His published work has focused on the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Hebrew Bible (particularly the Old Testament Minor Prophets), ancient and modern manuscript studies, and the Jewish context of the Greek New Testament. He is the editor for the book of Haggai for the Society of Biblical Literature Hebrew Bible Critical Edition and is a member of the editorial board for the BYU New Testament Commentary Series. He is a former researcher for the Scripta Qumranica Electronica project and an Orion Center for Dead Sea Scrolls Research Fellow at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. A former Religious Educator with Seminaries and Institutes of Religion, Josh and his wife Erin are the parents of four children and reside in Santaquin, Utah.Subscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

This conversation with Matt was one of my favorites. I am endlessly fascinated by ritual. Why have humans, since seemingly the beginning of time, performed rituals? I want to understand the role ritual plays in my life, in my community, and in the world. I have wrestled with it. I have hated it. I have been transformed by it. I have come to deeply love it—and will likely cycle through all of those feelings many times throughout my life.I’m convinced of ritual. I really am. Even more so after this conversation with Matt. In this episode, he walks us through the history of Christian ritual, how our relationship with ritual was profoundly transformed during the Reformation, and what Joseph Smith envisioned for the Saints when establishing something radically different in the 1830s.We explore why people believe that Jesus “did away with the law of Moses,” where that phrase came from, and why so many Christians believe we have “outgrown” ritual. Matt invites us into a new way of understanding the purpose of our rituals, and I left the conversation feeling truly inspired to more fully embrace what we are doing in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.Matthew Bowman was appointed the Howard W. Hunter Chair of Mormon Studies in 2019, with a joint appointment in History and Religion. He is a specialist in American religious history, with particular interests in Mormonism, new religious movements, UFOs, and the development of the concept of “religion” in the United States. Most recently, he is the author of Joseph Fielding Smith: A Mormon Theologian and The Abduction of Betty and Barney Hill: UFO Encounters, Civil Rights, and the New Age in America.Finding Matthew’s books here.Subscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

Gosh, I really can’t express how much I loved this conversation with George. It felt like a celebration of life—and an invitation to live and love it more fully. This conversation explores the five covenants we make in the temple, with particular emphasis on the first and the last: obedience and consecration. George shares his personal journey of coming to know the true God and of developing his own desire to offer his obedience to Him. We explore what true freedom is, the gift of our own weaknesses, and how to answer the call to a life of generosity and service. And that, perhaps, what becomes unveiled as we truly align ourselves with these divine laws is our ability to see just how precious and beautiful life really is.George Handley has taught at BYU in the fields of humanities and environmental studies for the past 28 years. He and his wife, Amy are the parents of four children and grandparents of four little ones. He is an incredible writer. His books include Hope of Nature, If Truth Were a Child, American Fork, and Home Waters.*Just a heads up, towards the beginning of this episode, George mentions his brother’s death by suicide and speaks to how that profoundly impacted his life and spiritual journey. Please be aware if this is something you are sensitive to.Follow George on Substack here.Subscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

Jared Lambert is a historical linguist specializing in the ancient Near East and the Hebrew Bible. He is a former military linguist in the United States Army and previously served as the lead linguist over sacred materials for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, working directly with temple-related content. Jared holds multiple degrees across linguistics, history, and religious studies and is currently completing his PhD in historical linguistics. His work focuses on diachronic language development, temple theology, and the ways translation, symbolism, and later theological frameworks reshaped earlier biblical traditions, particularly surrounding covenant, priesthood, and the Divine Feminine. He teaches courses on biblical language and symbolism and creates public-facing content aimed at helping modern readers approach scripture with greater historical and linguistic clarity.I was excited to sit down with Jared and hear his presentation on the creation story—especially as we’re just beginning the Old Testament in Come Follow Me, which opens with this account. Through a linguistic lens, Jared explores the ancient text’s etymological roots, revealing deeper meanings that resonate with both scientific and spiritual perspectives.He shares powerful insights into Adam and Eve, the nature of God as understood by ancient Israelites, and a portrayal of God that closely resembles the one worshipped by Latter-day Saints today. Most impactful to me was his reinterpretation of Eve and the essential role she played in humanity’s story.This conversation was fascinating and left me eager to learn more. We only scratched the surface of Jared’s work, and those interested can explore his classes, where he guides students on a linguistic journey through the scriptures. You can find a sign-up link in the show notes.Sign up for Jared’s classes hereFollow Jared on YouTube for more educational contentFollow Jared on TikTokFollow Jared on InstagramSubscribe to keep up with Sanctuary! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

Hannah Packard Crowther is a beautiful human and a thought-provoking writer. She is the author of Gracing, published by Faith Matters, where she reflects on grace not simply as a theological idea, but as an everyday, lived partnership with God. She holds a master’s degree in biological science education from BYU, and she’s a longtime mother, an aspiring theologian and poet, and a beachcomber whenever she gets the chance. Hannah writes at the crossroads of embodied faith, justice, and beauty, and has an essay on prophecy coming out soon in Wayfare.In this episode, Hannah and I delve into what temple work is truly about. As Hannah says, “There’s more to the project than linking names and checking off ordinances. We are linking souls and welding hearts from both sides of the veil.” Hannah and I explore temple ordinances as symbolic acts that reveal deeper truths about our relationships with God and each other. Hannah shares a touching family story that has reshaped her understanding of redemption and the healing that is made possible through this work.We reflect on the journey back to God not as an individual task, but a deeply, unavoidably communal project “that is about coming home, together.” Ultimately, God is playing the long game when it comes to healing and redeeming His children.Find Hannah’s book Gracing on Amazon and Book Shop.Read Dancing with Christ and Redeeming, two powerful excerpts from Hannah’s book Gracing. Follow Hannah on Substack at substack.com/@thisisgracing This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

Sarah is a writer, filmmaker, and recent PhD graduate in literature. Together with her husband, she is a co-author of The Book of Mormon Storybook and the human behind the Instagram account @forlittlesaints. She also works as the Root Director of Peacemaking at Mormon Women for Ethical Government.In this episode, Sarah shares her surprise in being invited onto the show due to not having a particularly strong relationship with the temple—yet this was precisely why I wanted to have a conversation with her. As someone who has had my own challenges in my temple journey, and who sees and feels the struggles many around me share, it felt important to have a conversation about the reality that our temple experience doesn’t always fit our ideals.Together we discuss the journey of making peace with your experience, how to create space for the diversity of experiences within a community, and the spiritual practice of embracing the unknown. Sarah shares about her work with Mormon Women for Ethical Government and what she has learned about peacemaking, the importance of drawing out differences, and allowing things to be unresolved.Sarah has also written beautifully about covenants. Together we explore the “impossible task” of making promises to give your absolute all to God, and the possibility that maybe the point of making covenants isn’t to perfectly keep them, but to deepen our relationship with Christ.Read Sarah’s essay “Covenants by Immersion” on WayfareMagazine.org.Preorder her new book, The Bible Storybook: The Old Testament, at forlittlesaints.comListen to Sarah read her scripture retellings for children in Scripture Stories for Little Saints, a new podcast from Faith Matters. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org

It felt only right to begin this journey with sharing my own.I grew up in the heart of Utah County in what I would refer to as a “cliche Mormon household.” Two faithful parents, seven children, a father who works at BYU—I was living the stereotype. But at age 15, due to a series of painful events and a battle with my mental health, I left the faith of my childhood.I spent the next 8 years struggling, wandering, and searching for truth—until five years ago, when I had a miraculous, born-again encounter with Jesus Christ while living in Thailand.I never wanted to come back to religion, but was guided to eventually read the Book of Mormon. I quickly received a witness of its truth. A couple of years later I went through the temple for my endowment—but despite my extensive preparation it was not what I expected. The challenge of that experience initiated a journey of deeper study to find out what all of this is really about. That journey continues today, and my hope is that you will join me as I continue to reach for understanding and meaning in this peculiar place that is The House of the Lord. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.sanctuarypod.org