Let's Do the Science! Talking Algorithms with Cathy O'Neill

Let's Do the Science! Talking Algorithms with Cathy O'Neill

From Scaling Laws by Lawfare & University of Texas Law School

May 19, 2026 · 49 min

About this episode

Cathy O'Neil discusses the complexities of algorithmic auditing and its implications for AI governance.

Cathy O’Neil, CEO of ORCAA and author of  Weapons of Math Destruction  and  The Shame Machine , joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and Senior Editor at Lawfare, to explore the promises and limits of algorithmic auditing. The conversation examines what audits actually do in practice, how organizations measure and mitigate bias, and why context—not just code—determines whether an AI system causes harm. O’Neil explains why auditing cannot be reduced to a checklist, where it can meaningfully improve outcomes, and where it risks creating a false sense of security. They also discuss the need for evidence-based AI policy, the challenges of translating ethical concerns into measurable standards, and how regulators should think about auditing as part of broader governance frameworks.   Logan Le-Jeffries, a wonderful member of the AI Innovation and Law Program, provided research assistance on this episode. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

People in this episode

Host: Kevin Frazier

Guest: Cathy O'Neil

Topics covered

  • algorithmic auditing
  • AI policy
  • bias mitigation
  • evidence-based governance
  • ethical standards

Keywords

  • algorithm auditing
  • bias
  • AI ethics
  • evidence-based policy
  • regulation

Mentioned in this episode

Organizations: ORCAA, University of Texas School of Law, Lawfare

Books & works: Weapons of Math Destruction, The Shame Machine

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