Snafu w/ Robin Zander

In this episode, I'm joined by Adam Rosendahl – facilitator, artist, and founder of Late Nite Art – for a conversation about creativity, trust, belonging, and why deeply human experiences may matter more than ever in an increasingly AI-driven world. Adam's work uses collaborative art, storytelling, music, and facilitation to help people lower their defenses and reconnect with one another in ways that traditional meetings, networking, and workplace culture often fail to create. We explore how creativity can function as a kind of social technology — building trust, emotional openness, empathy, and shared experience across strangers, teams, and organizations. We talk about the origins of Late Nite Art, the leadership camps and formative experiences that shaped Adam's philosophy, and why so many people today feel disconnected despite being constantly online. Along the way, we explore relationship-centered leadership, workplace trust, emotional safety, political polarization, experiential learning, and why organizations increasingly need spaces for genuine human connection. Toward the second half of the conversation, we discuss AI, automation, digital overwhelm, and the growing tension between technological acceleration and preserving humanity, creativity, and embodied experience. Adam also reflects on friendship, handwritten art, illuminated notes, and why imperfect human-made experiences may become even more valuable in a world saturated with AI-generated content. If you're thinking about creativity, leadership, belonging, trust, or how to stay emotionally grounded in rapidly changing times, this conversation is for you.

In this episode, I'm joined by Eric Ries – entrepreneur, founder of the Lean Startup movement, and author of The Lean Startup and Incorruptible – for a conversation about what it actually takes to build companies that last. Eric's work has shaped how startups and large organizations approach innovation, but this conversation goes deeper than experimentation. It's about what happens after you succeed and why so many good companies slowly lose their way. At the center is a concept he calls financial gravity: the invisible force that pushes organizations toward short-term decisions, often at the expense of customers, employees, and long-term value. We talk about how this pressure shows up everywhere – from venture-backed startups to public companies – and why even well-intentioned leaders struggle to resist it. We dig into real examples, from Costco and Patagonia to lesser-known companies that have built what Eric calls "incorruptible" systems – organizations designed to hold their values under pressure. That means not just strong culture, but governance, ownership, and structures that reinforce the mission over time. We explore: Where things break. Why founders lose control. Why incentives drift. Why "best practices" often lead to worse outcomes. And why resisting that pull requires more than good intentions. Along the way, we touch on AI, alternative ownership models, and the growing tension between innovation and accountability, especially as new technologies are being built inside increasingly concentrated power structures. If you're building a company, thinking about long-term value, or trying to create something that doesn't fall apart as it scales, this podcast is for you.

Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander. In this episode, I'm joined by Kevan Lee and Shannon Deep, co-founders of Bonfire – a creative studio reimagining what it means to build brands, tell stories, and live meaningful lives. We talk about how Bonfire began as a "Trojan horse" – a branding agency on the surface, but really a vehicle for deeper questions: What does fulfilling work look like? How do we find meaning beyond our careers? And how can business become a space for honesty, connection, and growth? Kevan and Shannon share how their partnership formed, what it takes to build trust as co-founders, and how vulnerability and self-awareness fuel their collaboration. We explore their path from tech and theater to building Bonfire, hosting creative retreats, and helping founders tell more authentic stories. We also dive into how AI is changing storytelling, the myth of "broetry" on LinkedIn, and why transparency is the future of marketing. If you're curious about what's next for creativity, leadership, and meaningful work, this episode is for you. And for more conversations like this, stay tuned for Responsive Conference 2026, where we'll be continuing the dialogue on human connection, business, and the evolving role of AI. Start (0:00) How Bonfire Started (14:25) Robin notes how transparent and intentional they've been building their business and community Says Bonfire feels like a 21st-century agency – creative, human, and not traditional Invites them to describe what they're building and their vision for it Kevan's response: Admits he feels imposter syndrome around being called an "entrepreneur" Laughs that it's technically true but still feels strange Describes Bonfire as partly a traditional branding agency They work with early-stage startups Help with brand strategy, positioning, messaging, and differentiation. But says the heart of their work is much deeper "We create spaces for people to explore what a fulfilling life looks like – one that includes work, but isn't defined by it." Their own careers inspired this – jobs that paid well but felt empty, or jobs that felt good but didn't pay the bills Bonfire became their way to build something more meaningful A space to have these conversations themselves And to invite others into it This includes community, retreats, and nontraditional formats Jokes that the agency side is a Trojan horse – a vehicle to fund the work they truly care about Shannon adds: They're agnostic about what Bonfire "does" Could be a branding agency, publishing house, even an ice cream shop "Money is just gas in the engine." The larger goal is creating spaces for people to explore their relationship to work Especially for those in transition, searching for meaning, or redefining success Robin reflects on their unusual path Notes most marketers who start agencies chase awards and fame But Shannon and Kevan built Bonfire around what they wished existed Recalls their past experiences Kevan's path from running a publication (later sold to Vox) to Buffer and then Oyster Shannon's shared time with him at Oyster Mentions their recent milestone – Bonfire's first live retreat in France 13 participants, including them Held in a rented castle For a two-year-old business, he calls it ambitious and impressive Asks: "How did it go? What did people get out of it?" Shannon on the retreat Laughs that they're still processing what it was They had a vibe in mind – but not a fixed structure One participant described it as "a wellness retreat for marketers" Not wrong – but also not quite right Attendees came from tech and non-tech backgrounds The focus: exploring people's most meaningful relationship to work Who you are when you're not at your desk How to bring that awareness back to real life — beyond castles and catered meals People came at it from different angles Some felt misaligned with their work Others were looking for something new Everyone was at a crossroads in their career Kevan on the space they built The retreat encouraged radical honesty People shared things like: "I have this job because I crave approval." "I care about money as a status symbol." "I hate what I do, but I don't know what else I'd be good at." They didn't force vulnerability, but wanted to make it safe if people chose it They thought deeply about values – what needed to be true for that kind of trust Personally, Kevan says the experience shifted his identity From "marketer" to something else – maybe "producer," maybe "creator" The retreat made him realize how many paths are possible "Now I just want to do more of this." Robin notes there are "so many threads to pull on" Brings up family business and partnerships Shares his own experience growing up in his dad's small business Talks about lessons from Robin's Cafe and the challenges of partnerships Says he's fascinated by co-founder dynamics – both powerful and tricky Asks how Shannon and Kevan's working relationship works What it was like at Oyster Why they decided to start Bonfire together And how it's evolved after the retreat Kevan on their beginnings He hired Shannon at Oyster – she was Editorial Director, he was SVP of Marketing Worked together for about a year and a half Knew early on that something clicked Shared values Similar worldview Trusted each other When Oyster ended, partnering up felt natural – "Let's figure out what's next, together." Robin observes their groundedness Says they both seem stable and mature, which likely helps the partnership Jokes about his own chaos running Robin's Café – late nights, leftover wine, cold quinoa Asks Shannon directly: "Do you still follow Kevan's lead?" Shannon's laughs and agrees they're both very regulated people But adds that it comes from learned coping mechanisms Says they've both developed pro-social ways to handle stress People-pleasing Overachievement Perfectionism Intellectualizing feelings instead of expressing them "Those are coping mechanisms too," she notes, "but at least they keep us calm when we talk." Building Trust and Partnership (14:54–23:15) Shannon says both she and Kevan have done deep personal work. Therapy, reflection, and self-inquiry are part of their toolkit. That helps them handle a relationship that's both intimate and challenging. They know their own baggage. They try not to take the other person's reactions personally. It doesn't always work—but they trust they'll work through conflict. When they started Bonfire: They agreed the business world is unpredictable. So they made a pinky swear: Friends first, business second. The friendship is the real priority. When conflict comes up, they ask: "Is this really life or death—or are we just forgetting what matters?" Shannon goes back to the question and clarifies Says they lead in different ways. Each has their "zone of genius." They depend on each other's strengths. It's not leader and follower – it's mutual reliance. Shannon explains: Kevan's great at momentum: He moves things forward and ships projects fast. Shannon tends to be more perfectionist: Wants things to be fully formed before releasing. Kevan adds they talk often about "rally and rest." Kevan rallies, he thrives on pressure and urgency. Shannon rests, she values slowing down and reflection. Together, that creates a healthy rhythm. Robin notes lingering habits Wonders if any "hangovers" from their Oyster days remain. Kevan reflects At first, he hesitated to show weakness. Coming from a manager role, vulnerability felt risky. Shannon quickly saw through it. He realized openness was essential, not optional. Says their friendship and business both rely on honesty. Robin agrees and says he wouldn't discourage co-founders—it's just a big decision. Like choosing a spouse, it shapes your life for years. Notes he's never met with one of them without the other. "That says something," he adds. Their partnership clearly works—even if it takes twice the time. Rethinking Marketing (23:19) Kevan's light moment: Asks if Robin's comment about their teamwork was feedback for them. Robin's observation Notes how in sync Shannon and Kevan are. Emails one, gets a reply CC'd with the other. Says the tempo of Bonfire feels like their collaboration itself. Wonders what that rhythm feels like internally. Kevan's response Says it's partly intentional, partly habit. They genuinely enjoy working together. Adds they don't chase traditional agency milestones. No interest in Ad Age lists or Cannes awards. Their goal: have fun and make meaningful work. Robin pivots to the state of marketing (24:04) Mentions the shift from Madison Avenue's glory days to today's tech-driven world. Refers to Mad Men and the "growth at all costs" startup era. Notes how AI and tech are changing how people see their role in work and life. Kevan's background Came from startups, not agencies. Learned through doing, not an MBA. Immersed in books like Hypergrowth and Traction. Took Reforge courses—knows the mechanics of scaling. Before that, worked as a journalist. Gained curiosity and calm under pressure, but also urgency. Admits startup life taught him both good and bad habits. Robin notes Neither lives the Madison Avenue life. Kevan's in Boise. Shannon's in France. Shannon's background Started in theater – behind the scenes as a dramaturg and producer. Learned how to shape emotion and tell stories. Transitioned into brand strategy in New York. Worked at a top agency, Siegel+Gale. Helped global B2B and B2C clients define mission, values, and design. Competed with big names like Interbrand and Pentagram. Later moved in-house at tech startups. Saw how B2B marketing often tries to "act cool" like B2C. Learned to translate creative ideas into language that convinces CFOs. Says her role often meant selling authentic storytelling to risk-averse execs. Admits she joined marketing out of necessity. "I was 27, broke in New York, and needed a parking spot for my storytelling skills." Robin connects the dots Notes how Silicon Valley's "growth" culture mirrors old ad-world burnout. Growth at all costs. Not much room for creative autonomy. Adds most big agencies are now owned by holding companies. The original Madison Avenue independence is nearly gone. Robin's reflection Mentions how AI-generated content is changing video and storytelling. Grateful his clients still value human connection. Asks how Bonfire helps brands tell authentic stories now that the old model is fading. Kevan's take Says people now care less about "moments" and more about audiences. It's not about one viral hit—it's about building consistency. Brands need to stand for something, and keep showing up. People want that outcome, even if they don't want the hard work behind it. Shannon adds Notes rising skepticism among audiences. Most content people see isn't from who they follow, it's ads and algorithms. Consumers are subconsciously filtering out the noise. Says that's why human storytelling matters more than ever. People crave knowing a real person is behind the message. AI can mimic tone but not authenticity. Adds it's hard to convince some clients of that. Authentic work isn't fast or easily measured. It requires belief in the process and a value system to match. That's tough when your client's investors only want quick returns. Robin agrees "Look at people's incentives and I'll tell you who they are." Shannon continues Wonders where their responsibility ends. Should they convince people of their values? Or just do the work and let the right clients come? Kevan says they've found a sweet spot with current clients. Mostly bootstrapped founders. Work with them long-term instead of one-off projects. Says that's the recipe that fits Bonfire's values and actually works. The Quarter Analogy (35:36) Robin quotes BJ Fogg: "Don't try to persuade people of your worldview. Look for people who already want what you can teach, and just show them how." He compares arguing with people who don't align to "an acrobat arguing with gravity – gravity will win 100% of the time." The key: harness momentum instead of fighting resistance. Even a small, aligned audience is better than chasing everyone. Kevan shares Bonfire's failed experiment with outbound sales: They tried reaching out to recently funded AI companies. "It got us nowhere," he admits. That experience reminded him how much old startup habits – growth at all costs, scale fast – still shape thinking. "I thought success meant getting as big as possible, as fast as possible. That meant doing outbound, even if it felt inauthentic." But that mindset just added pressure. Realizing there were other ways to grow – slower, more intentional – was a relief. Now they've stopped outbound entirely. Focused instead on aligned clients who find them naturally. Robin connects it to a MrBeast quote. "If I'm not ashamed of the video I put out last week, I'm not growing fast enough." He says he doesn't love the "shame" part but relates to the evolution mindset – Looking back at work from six months ago and thinking, I'd do that differently now. Growth as a visible, measurable journey. Robin shifts to storytelling frameworks: Mentions Kevan and Shannon's analogies about storytelling and asks about "the quarter analogy." Kevan explains the "quarter" story: A professor holds up two quarters: "Sell me the one on the right." No one can – until someone says, "I'll dip it in Marilyn Monroe's purse." That coin now has emotional and cultural value. Marketing can be the same – alchemy that turns something ordinary into something meaningful. Robin builds on that: You can tell stories about a coin's history – "Lincoln touched it," etc. But Kevan's version is different: adding new meaning in the present. "How do you imbue something with value now that makes it matter later?" Shannon's take: It's about values and belonging. "Every story implicitly says: believe this." That belief also says: we don't believe that – defining who's in your tribe. Humans crave that – community, validation, connection. That belonging is intangible but real. "Try selling that to a CFO who just wants ROI. Impossible — but it's real." Kevan adds: Values are one piece – authenticity is another. Some brands already have a genuine story; others want to create one. "We get asked to dip AI companies into Marilyn Monroe's purse," he jokes. The real work is uncovering what's true or helping brands rediscover it. The challenge: telling that story consistently and believably. Robin mentions Shannon's storytelling framework of three parts – Purpose → Story frameworks → Touch points. Shannon breaks it down: Clients usually come in with half-baked "mission" or "vision" statements. She uses Ogilvy's "Big Ideal" model: Combine a cultural tension (what's happening in the world) with your brand's best self. Then fill in the blank: "We believe the world would be a better place if…" That single sentence surfaces a company's "why us" and "why now." It's dramaturgy, really — same question as in theater: "Why this play now?" "Why us?" Bonfire's own version (in progress): "We believe the world would be a better place if people and brands had more room to explore their creativity." Kevan adds: it's evolving, like them. Robin relates it back to his own story: After selling Robin's Café, he started Zander Media to tell human stories. He wanted to document real connections — "the barista-customer relationships, the neighborhood changing." That became his north star: storytelling as a tool for change and human connection. "I don't care about video," he says. "I care about storytelling, helping people become more of who they want to be." Kevan closes the loop: A good purpose statement is expansive. It can hold video, podcasts, even a publishing house. "Maybe tomorrow it's something else. That's the beauty — it allows room to grow." Against the Broetry (49:01) Kevan reflects on transparency and values at Bonfire He and Robin came from Buffer, a company known for radical transparency — posting salaries, growth numbers, everything. Says that while Bonfire isn't as extreme about it, the spirit is the same. "It just comes naturally to invite people in." Their openness isn't a tactic – it's aligned with their values and mission. They want to create space for people to explore – new ideas, new ways of working, more fulfilling lives. Sharing their journey publicly felt like the obvious, authentic thing to do. "It wasn't even a conversation – just who we are." Shannon jumps in with a critique of business culture online Says there's so much terrible advice about "how to build a business." Compliments Robin for cutting through the noise – being honest through Snafu and his newsletter. "You're trying to be real about what selling feels like and what it says about you." Calls out the "rise and grind" nonsense dominating LinkedIn: "Wake up at 4 a.m., protein shake at 4:10, three-hour workout…" Robin laughs – "I'll take the three-hour workout, but I'll pass on the protein shake." Shannon and Kevan call it "broetry" The overblown, performative business storytelling on social media. "I went on my honeymoon and here's what I learned about B2B sales." Their goal with building in public is the opposite: To admit mistakes. To share pivots and moments of doubt. To remind people that everyone is figuring it out. "But the system rewards the opposite – gatekeeping, pretending, keeping up the facade." Shannon says she has "no patience for it." She traces that belief back to a story from college Producer Paula Wagner once told her class: "Here's the secret: nobody knows anything." That line stuck with her. Gave her permission to question authority. To show up confidently even when others pretend to know more. After years of watching powerful men "fail upward," she realized: "The emperor has no clothes." So she might as well take up space too. Transparency, for her, is a form of connection and courage – "When people raise their eyes from their desks and actually meet each other, that's power." Robin thanks Shannon for the kind words about Snafu. Says their work naturally attracts people who want that kind of realness. Then pivots to a closing question: "If you had one piece of advice for founders – about storytelling or business building – what would it be?" Kevan's advice: "Look beyond what's around you." Inspiration doesn't have to come from your industry. Learn from other fields, other stories, other worlds. It builds curiosity, empathy, and creativity. Robin sums it up: "Get out of your silos." Shannon's advice: "Make the thing you actually want to see." Too many founders copy what's trendy or "smart." Ask instead: What would I genuinely love to consume? Remember your audience is human, like you. And remember, building a business is a privilege. You get to create a small world that reflects your values. You get to hire people, pay them, shape a culture. "That's so cool, and it should make you feel powerful." With that power comes responsibility. "Everyone says it's about making the most money. But what if the goal was to make the coolest world possible, for as many people as possible?" Where to find Kevan and Shannon (57:16) Points listeners to aroundthebonfire.com/experiences. That's where they host their retreats. Next one is April 2026. "We'd love to see you there." Companies/Organizations Bonfire Buffer Oyster Vox Zander Media Siegel+Gale Interbrand Pentagram Reforge Robin's Café Books / Frameworks / Theories Traction BJ Fogg's behavioral model Ogilvy's "Big Ideal" Purpose → Story Frameworks → Touch Point People Paula Wagner BJ Fogg MrBeast (Jimmy Donaldson) David Ogilvy Newsletters Snafu Kevan's previous publication

Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander. In this episode, I'm talking with Bobby Podesta, longtime Pixar animator and storyteller. We dig into why storytelling and art matter, and why finding your own voice is more important than copying anyone else. Bobby opens up about his journey as an artist, the imposter syndrome he's faced, and how he learned to create art in a style that's truly his. We talk about how he turned a written novel into a graphic novel, translating dialogue and descriptions into illustrations along the way. He shares lessons from his college design teacher about noticing the art all around us—not just in museums or galleries. We also explore how design and storytelling balance function and emotion, in ways you might not even realize in everyday life. Bobby's story shows that creativity isn't about perfection – it's about showing up and being authentic. He gives a fresh perspective on how storytelling shapes the way we see the world and connect with others. This episode is full of insights for anyone who cares about art, design, and telling stories that matter. 00:00 Start 03:13 The Importance of Human Connection in Storytelling Bobby on storytelling Background: 30 years in film, always thinking about story structure. Drama is about "what you're both keeping back and what you're waiting to surprise your audience with." Steve Jobs anecdote Jobs builds suspense with "one more thing." On stage, he asks: "Has anyone ever wondered what this small pocket is for?" (the tiny jeans pocket). Instead of something expected like a coin, he pulls out "the world's smallest iPod and people flip out." Why it works: audience knows the pocket's size → no need to explain iPod's dimensions. Structure: setup → familiar norm → question → twist → payoff. Bobby's takeaway: "That's really good storytelling, man. It's really good storytelling." "People call him a salesperson. Like he's a great salesman. He's a great storyteller. If you can tell a good story, you're pulling people in. That's the key." Robin on storytelling & AI His work is making commercials and mini-docs for startups. Says video itself doesn't matter as much as impact: "What I care about is changing human behavior and changing human emotion." Believes the value of human storytelling is timeless: "The value of sitting at Homer's feet and listening to him recite the Iliad is never going to go away." Bobby on storytelling & art Storytelling = fundamental way to convey and connect. Sees it like art: "Art is a way to express your opinion and how you process the world around you in a manner that hopefully other people can experience and relate to." Calls art his "oldest friend, who I've probably treated the worst… neglected, starved, and then expect it to show up and perform." Believes everyone can create: "Art is not a zero-sum game… art is ultimately subjective because art is an opinion about how you see the world." Goal of art/storytelling: help others "find some relationship to the world around them through it." 06:01 Art as a Form of Expression Robin's setup Grew up between an artist mother and entrepreneur father – "perfect intersection" of art + business. Distinguishes museum art ("old, on walls") from art that's "around us all the time." Points out modern communicators (Musk, Trump) as powerful storytellers/branders – even if you disagree with the content, "that is great art in the form of good communication." Asks: why do we separate "high" art (Iliad, museums) from everyday, cultural storytelling (Pixar, branding)? Art is everywhere Bobby uses the car-buying analogy to explain awareness: "You're looking for a midsize pickup and suddenly you see them everywhere. They didn't just appear. You're just paying attention." Art works the same way – once you start noticing, you realize it's all around you. Lesson from a design teacher: "If it wasn't dug up or grown, it's designed." Everything man-made carries intention – and therefore, art. Pushes back on the museum-only view of art: "Saying art is only in museums is like saying there are only cars at dealerships. There are cars everywhere. There's art everywhere." Examples of art woven into daily life: Clothing, headphones, glasses Desks, chairs, pottery, textiles Buildings, skylines, sidewalk prints Freeway dividers, lamps Even tools: "Go get a hammer. The handle's probably painted a color. It may be a penny's worth of art, but it's art, man." Definition of art: "All these things are working with that balance between functionality and making you feel something." Even branding choices – a color, a shape – are designed to evoke feeling. Perspective shift: Once you adjust your lens, "there's a lot of art out there. It's really, really amazing." 12:04 The Relationship Between Artist and Art Bobby compares practice to a relationship: "It's like the people that love you the most, sometimes you treat the worst." Practice is like a loyal friend or character always waiting: Wants to be fed, but often ignored. Always ready to show up again. "It's like that little character that shows up and is always there to help you out." Robin asks if practice is a character on his shoulder. Bobby: "It probably is… but I love it. If there's a napkin, I'll doodle." Art as a shared childhood language: Everyone starts out drawing: "Have you ever met an adult who didn't draw as a kid? Everyone says yes." Drawing is how children interpret the world. Family encouragement made "the artist" part of his identity. Becoming a writer: Took a UC Berkeley Extension class called "Finishing the Novel." Professor's advice: "You're all taking classes. None of you are professionals. Go form a writers' group." Writers' group provided accountability → led to a first draft. Draft → literary agent → graphic novel → published book. "Flash forward all these years later and I have a book that comes out… I guess I'm an author." Lessons on growth and identity: Identity comes from practice and persistence, not instant recognition. Progress isn't linear: "The road is not a straight line." Common trap: believing "I should have been there already." Bobby reframes time: "You can often have what you want, or you can have something when you want it. But you can rarely have what you want when you want it." Letting go of rigid timelines gives a better chance of arriving. 18:01 The Process of Creating a Graphic Novel Robin asks why this story, why now, and why as a debut novel. Bobby admits he had played with different story ideas before. Thought to himself: "If I only have one chance to do this, what story do I want to tell?" Origin spark: a daydream while driving. "What if an animal just jumped out in front of me?" What if it leapt into the air and flew away? "What if that animal was a reindeer?" Question: what would a reindeer be doing here? That "what if" became the seed of the story. Bobby folded parts of himself into the idea. Loves holiday stories and movies → wanted to write one. Describes storytelling as crafting from a "pantry of experiences." Not autobiography or documentary, but infused with pieces of his life. Details of the novel: Protagonist is an 11-year-old girl in 1955 Colorado. Bobby: "I was neither alive in 1955, nor have I ever been an 11-year-old girl, nor have I found a flying reindeer — spoiler alert." Still, fragments of his own experiences and emotions shape the narrative. Goal as an author: To blend reality with imagination. To create something unique, fresh, and able to stand on its own. 20:58 Visual Storytelling vs. Written Storytelling Robin asks about storytelling: what's similar between Steve Jobs' two-minute iPod reveal and a 350-page graphic novel? Bobby: scale is different, but fundamentals are the same. Both are about introducing an idea, building drama, and pulling the audience in. Events and books both follow arcs: setup → build → climax → resolution. "He doesn't start the event with that, he ends the event with that. That's the climax." Storytelling has shape across mediums: Characters introduced → audience grows to care → surprises and turns → payoffs. Example: Steve Jobs' coin pocket reveal → set up, then payoff. In a book, the payoff may come 100 pages later instead of 30 seconds. Analogy: whether you play 30 seconds of a song or an hour-long concert, you're still using the same fundamentals of music. Robin shifts to Bobby's background as a visual storyteller. As an animator of 30 years, Bobby is comfortable with visual stories, while Robin is more comfortable with written ones. Robin compares Bobby's graphic novel to The Bone Compendium (which he revisits often) and contrasts with Heinlein novels he might attempt. Robin: making comics doesn't have to be like "my mother's artwork she slaved over for years." It can be like newspaper comics compiled into story. Asks Bobby for advice on where to begin if he wanted to try sketching a visual story. Bobby's advice: Many people don't think visual storytelling is possible for them. Shares personal story: On his first post-college date with his wife (now 25 years married), he said he wanted to write a book. It took him 25 years to actually write one. Never thought of doing a graphic novel because his drawing style didn't look like Marvel or X-Men. Even as a professional artist, felt imposter syndrome Realization: it's not about imitating Spider-Man — it's about drawing in your own style. Art is your opinion expressed visually. Stick figures can work if they serve the story. Doesn't have to be polished airbrushed paintings. How his graphic novel came about: Originally wrote the story as a regular novel. Sent to publishers with just a few illustrations. All said no — except one, who said: "I love the illustrations. Would you consider making this a graphic novel?" Bobby: "All right." Treated it as an invitation. Decided to draw in his own style. Practical process: Took all the dialogue he had already written. Turned descriptions into drawings. Book was already written in close third person, without inner thoughts → made translation easier. First pass: dialogue in speech bubbles, description drawn. Realized: "I guess this works." Takeaway: You don't have to start by drawing an entire book from scratch. You can begin with writing, then translate description into visuals. 28:10 Resilience in the Face of Rejection Robin points out the sheer amount of work Bobby went through: writing a book, getting rejected repeatedly, reinventing it with illustrations, then turning it into a graphic novel only to be rejected again. Robin: "It's almost the literal definition of courage… getting back up and trying again." Notes that outsiders might think: "30-year Pixar animator, easy for you." But the reality was rejection after rejection. Asks: how do you come back? What is your relationship with practice that allows you to face no 50 times and keep going? Bobby on optimism and imagination: "I'm lucky that I happen to be what myself and other people probably call an optimistic person." Describes himself as "an optimist with a vivid imagination" → always assuming, "Yeah, we'll figure this out." Loves being middle-aged because experience gives perspective: you've seen enough to know you can recover. The arc of a career/life: Beginning stage: fearless. "I can do anything because I cannot die." Willing to leap into anything: start a company, go broke, jump off a cliff → "We'll figure it out." Middle stage: awareness of consequences. Relationships, responsibilities, failures and successes → "I don't know if I should do anything." Weight of awareness can freeze you. Later stage: resilience. "I'm still here, I figured it out." Confidence comes not from avoiding mistakes but from knowing: "I can recover from anything." Personal examples: Bobby's two kids are both in college. He reflects on their application process: multiple schools, multiple options. His own experience was the opposite: Applied to only one school (CalArts). Barely got in. Supported by his single mother, who let him pursue art school. That early challenge taught him persistence and how to "figure it out." The practice of persistence: Life and career filled with moments of trial and error. "That didn't work. Okay, maybe this. Well, that didn't work. Maybe this." Sometimes progress feels like moving backwards before going forward again. Analogy: like a Roomba. Hits an obstacle → bounces, changes direction, keeps moving. "I don't know that equating myself to a robot vacuum is the best thing, but it eventually gets the whole job done." 33:33 Storytelling Frameworks and Structures Bobby on classical story structure in his book: Book follows a traditional arc: opening, inciting incident ( Includes a twist based on early-foreshadowed elements: "Think you have a solution and then have a hard turn… different solution planted 100 pages earlier." Early readers said it felt cinematic → Bobby wrote a movie as a book. References classic movie structures repeatedly during drafting, checking chapter progression, hooks, resolutions, and cliffhangers: "Do I end this chapter with a feeling of resolution or with a question… do I want you to turn the page?" Notes that creating the book strengthened his skills at Pixar and vice versa: "They have a symbiotic relationship." Robin asks about attention to structure: Bobby used a mix of planning and improvisation ("planners vs. pantsers"). Laid out large story "tentpoles" first, then wrote chapter by chapter without immediate rewrites. After finishing, he reviewed for surprises, alignment with tentpoles, and adjustments → iterative back-and-forth process. Bobby on why people don't create: Humans face fatigue, distraction, and constant small friction points: "It's like mini marshmallow tests all the time… the barriers of resistance to start can seem so overwhelming in the moment." The promise of completion feels distant and foggy → can prevent starting. Practice builds momentum: "It's momentum… sometimes it's having someone to be your advocate… sometimes it's accountability." Big projects (books, movies) require an internal well of energy: "You can't count on someone else to always be there to say, 'Keep going.' You have to push yourself daily." Daily discipline = mental exercise: getting out of bed, starting small tasks → builds resilience. On avoiding writer's block: Robin: "Writer's block is trying to edit while in the process of creation… you can't do both simultaneously." Bobby: Agrees, emphasizes creation first, editing later. Early experience with comic strips in high school: studied Charles Schulz's process, learned professionals set deadlines → no excuses for "writer's block." On practical daily routine and momentum: Bobby wrote his book for ~1 hour a day while managing family, work, and marriage. Morning routine: 5–5:30 a.m. start, kettle and coffee prepped the night before → eliminates friction to starting work. Hardest step: moving from bed to floor → must commit, no complaining. Momentum principle: start creating first, quality comes later. "By the time I've sat down and portioned my coffee… here we go, just start. Start writing, start drawing, start doing whatever." 46:42 Overcoming Resistance and Building Momentum Bobby on moving yourself before moving others: Don't try to manipulate the audience's emotions: "Try to move yourself to emotion. If you try to move someone else… you're trying to tap into someone else's experience." Authenticity first: "Write, draw, create, tell a story that is as authentic to your own voice as it can be." Art as personal expression: putting your own emotion and opinion into the work. Bobby on why authenticity resonates: People relate most to what feels real and personal: "The stuff we relate to the most are the things that artists… seem to be really trying to tell from the inside out." Trying to make someone happy or sad is normal, but the deeper work comes from creating for yourself first. Bobby on the process of creating large works: Long projects require self-focus: "You kind of have to do it for yourself… in the hopes that someone else will see it like that." Early reviews affirmed authenticity: "I was reading some early reviews… and I was like, my gosh, they got it. They got it." The work doesn't have to resonate with everyone, just someone: "If it can make you smile, it probably is gonna make someone else smile." Bobby on art as perspective: Artists share how they see the world: "If it is a painting that your parents took you to in the museum… that painter was trying to say, this is how I saw the world." Audience connection = seeing through the artist's lens: "If you looked at that painting and said, I see that. I see that. That's great. That's the lens, man. That's the lens." (49:59) Where to Find Bobby Website: bobbypedesta.com – easy to remember and navigate. Bobby on finding North for the Winter: Available anywhere books are sold. Website provides a direct link to purchase at your preferred retailer. Local bookstores can order it within a couple of days if they don't have it in stock. Books / Works The Iliad North for the Winter The Bone Compendium Heinlein novels (Robert A. Heinlein) People Steve Jobs Homer (epic poet) Elon Musk Donald Trump Charles Schulz Robert A. Heinlein Jeff Smith

Welcome back to Snafu w/ Robin Zander. In this episode, I'm joined by Simone Stolzoff – author of The Good Enough Job and the upcoming How to Not Know – and our opening keynote speaker at Responsive Conference 2025. We explore what it means to have an identity beyond your job title, why rest is essential for high performance, and how ritual and community offer grounding in an age of uncertainty. Simone shares how Judaism and Shabbat have shaped his views on balance, the role of "guardrails" over boundaries, and how we can build more durable lives – personally and professionally. We talk about the future of religion, the risks and opportunities of AI, and why books still matter even in a tech-saturated world. Simone also offers practical writing advice, previews his next book, and explains why embracing uncertainty may be the most valuable skill of all. Simone will be speaking live at Responsive Conference 2025, September 17–18, and I can't wait for you to hear more. If you haven't gotten your tickets yet, get them here. Start (00:00) Identity Beyond Titles (01:07.414) What identities do you hold that aren't listed on your LinkedIn? Simone's Answer: Ultimate frisbee player – "the entirety of my adult life" Aspiring salsa dancer – taking intro classes with his wife Former spoken word poet – "It was the most important thing to me when I was 19 years old." New father – navigating life with a five-month-old "I encourage people to ask: what do you like to do, as opposed to what do you do?" Shabbat as a Sanctuary in Time (01:58.831) Robin references Simone's TED Talk, focusing on Shabbat as a metaphor for boundary-setting and presence. Simone expands: Shabbat offers a weekly rhythm to separate work from rest. Emphasizes the idea of "sacred time" and intentional disconnection from screens. Shabbat is a "sanctuary in time," paralleling physical sanctuaries like churches or synagogues. Relates this to work-life balance, noting that intentions alone aren't enough – infrastructure is needed. "We have intentions… but what actually leads to balance is structural barriers." Boundaries vs. Guardrails (04:44.32) Cites Anne Helen Petersen's metaphor: Boundaries = painted lane lines Guardrails = physical barriers that actually keep you on the road There are calls for more guardrails (structural protections) in modern life. Examples: Airplane mode during playtime with his kid Attending yoga or activities where work can't creep in "Individually imposed boundaries often break down when the pressures of capitalism creep in." Religion, Ritual & Community (06:48.57) Robin asks how Judaism has shaped Simone's thinking around work and life. Simone reflects: Religion offers a "container" with a different value system than capitalism. As organized religion declined, people turned to work for identity, meaning, and community. Religion can offer rituals to process uncertainty — e.g., mourning rituals like sitting shiva. Religious or community spaces offer contrast: they don't care about your career success. "Religion is sort of like a container… with a value system that isn't just about growth charts." "It can be refreshing to say: Day 1, do this. Day 7, go for a walk." Personal journey: Simone reconnected with Judaism in his 30s as he built his own family. Once, went out of obligation, then rejected it, and now see beauty in ritual and intergenerational wisdom. The Future of Religion & Community (09:12.454) Robin theorizes a future rise in spiritual and communal gatherings: Predicts new spiritual movements or evolutions of old ones Notes a hunger for meaningful in-person connection, especially post-AI and amid tech saturation "There's a hunger... as AI and screens define how we relate, people want to gather in person." "I don't tend to make predictions, but I think this one's inevitable." Simone agrees... but offers data as contrast: Cites the decline in religious affiliation in the U.S. 1950s: 3–4% unaffiliated Today: Nearly 1 in 3 identify as "Nones" (no religion) Notes reasons: Rising wealth tends to increase secularism The internet creates alternate identity spaces "I do believe there is inevitability in the growth [of spirituality]... But the data points the opposite way." Simone reflects on the factors behind declining religious affiliation: Doubt now builds community – the internet has enabled people to connect around leaving religion as much as practicing it. Political entanglement – many young Americans, especially, are alienated by the perceived overlap between right-wing politics and Christianity. Yet despite this secular trend, the need for meaning, ritual, and purpose remains universal. "There still is this fundamental need to find meaning, to find purpose, to find ritual… even if it's not in the forms we're used to." A Church in the Mission (13:07.182) Robin shares a formative experience from 2016: That year, he launched both Robin's Café and the first Responsive Conference. When he walked into the theater space that would become his café, he encountered a young, diverse Christian revival group – live music, dancing, and energetic worship happening in a Mission District theater. This juxtaposition – a traditional spiritual gathering inside a modern, "hip" venue – left a lasting impression. "It felt like a revival meeting in the South… except it was full of people my age and younger, partying on a Saturday morning – and it just happened to be church." You Are More Than Your Work (14:51.182) Robin segues into the idea of multiple identities: He recalls how reading The 4-Hour Work Week helped him embrace not defining himself solely by his entrepreneurial work. Even on tough days running a business, movement and fitness have been a grounding force – something he does daily, independent of career performance. Quotes from Simone's TED Talk: "Some people do what they love for work; others work so they can do what they love. Neither is more noble." Robin asks Simone to share the origin of this line and how it connects to the poet Anis Mojgani. Simone recounts a pivotal conversation during college: As a poetry and economics double major, he was wrestling with career path anxiety. He interviewed his favorite poet, Anis Mojgani, asking: "Do you believe in the idea, 'Do what you love and never work a day in your life'?" Mojgani's response: "Some people do what they love for work. Others do what they have to so they can do what they love when they're not working. Neither is more noble." This countered Simone's expectations and left a deep impression. He highlights two cases for cultivating a broader identity beyond work: Business Case: High performance requires rest. People with "greater self-complexity" — more identities outside of work — are more creative, more resilient, and more emotionally stable. Moral Case: Investing in other parts of ourselves makes us better citizens, community members, and humans. Singular identity (especially career-based) is fragile and susceptible to collapse — e.g., pandemic layoffs. Solely work-based identity also sets unrealistically high expectations that can lead to disappointment. "You're balancing on a very narrow platform… You're susceptible to a large gust of wind." Robin reflects on how the Responsive Manifesto intentionally avoids prescribing one path: It's not anti-work or anti-grind. Recognizes that sometimes hard work is necessary, especially in entrepreneurship. Shares how his friend's newsletter, Just Go Grind, embraces the idea that seasons of hustle are sometimes required. "Everyone figuring out their own boundaries is actually the goal." Work Isn't Good or Bad – It's Complex (18:34.436) Simone adds that society tends to polarize the narrative around work: Some say "burn it all down", that work is evil. Others say, "Do what you love, or it's not worth doing." His book The Good Enough Job argues for a middle way: It's not hustle propaganda. It's not a slacker's manifesto. It's about recognizing that we spend a huge portion of our lives working, so it matters how we approach it, but also recognizing we're more than just our jobs. He introduces the concept of temporal balance: "There's a natural seasonality to work." Sometimes, long hours are necessary (e.g., startup mode, sales targets). But it should be a season, not a permanent lifestyle. What's the Role of Books in the Age of AI? (22:41.507) Robin poses a forward-looking question: In an age when AI can summarize, synthesize, and generate information rapidly, what's the role of books? Especially nonfiction, where facts are easier to reproduce. Simone responds with both uncertainty and hope: Human storytelling as a moat: His work relies on reporting, profiling, and character studies — something LLMs can't yet replicate with nuance. He doesn't know how long this will remain defensible, but will continue to lean into it. Books are more than information: Books have utility beyond facts: they are entertainment, physical objects, and cultural symbols. Quotes the vibe of being surrounded by books: there's even an untranslatable word (possibly German or Japanese) about the comfort of unread books. A vinyl-record future: Books may become more niche, collectible, or artisanal, similar to vinyl. But they still hold society's most well-formed, deeply considered ideas. The human touch still matters: A typed note that looks handwritten isn't the same as a note that is handwritten. People will crave authenticity and human creation, especially in a tech-saturated world. "You can appreciate when something has a level of human touch, especially in an increasingly tech-powered world." He closes with a self-aware reflection: "I don't claim to know whether my career will still exist in five years… which is why I picked this topic for my second book." "Created by Humans" (25:49.549) Robin references a conversation with Bree Groff, who imagined a world where creative work carries a "Created by Human" tag, like organic food labeling. "I think we'll see that [kind of labeling] in the next few decades – maybe even in the next few years." As AI-generated content floods the market, human-made work may soon carry new cultural cachet. Simone shares a turning point: after submitting an op-ed to The New York Times, his editor flagged a bad metaphor. En route to a bachelor party, he opened ChatGPT, asked for new metaphors, chose one, and it made the print edition the next day. "Maybe I've broken some law about journalism ethics... but that was the moment where I was like: whoa. This sh*t is crazy." The Home-Buying Crash Course Powered by AI (27:57) Robin's breakthrough came while navigating the chaos of buying a house. He used ChatGPT to upskill rapidly: Structural questions (e.g., redwood roots and foundation risk) Zoning and legal research Negotiation tactics "The rate of learning I was able to create because of these tools was 10 to 100 times faster than what I could've done previously." How to Live Without Knowing (29:41.498) Simone previews his next book, How to Not Know, a field guide for navigating uncertainty. In an age of instant answers, our tolerance for the unknown is shrinking, while uncertainty itself is growing. "We're trying to find clarity where there is none. My hope is that the book offers tools to live in that space." The "Three Horsemen of Delusion": Comfort – we crave the ease of certainty. Hubris – we assume we know more than we do. Control – we believe certainty gives us power over the future. Robin asks how Simone finds his stories. His answer: chase change. Whether internal (doubt, transformation) or external (leaving a cult, facing rising seas), he seeks tension and evolution. Examples: A couple questioning their marriage An employee leading dissent at work A man leaving his religious identity behind A nation (Tuvalu) confronting its own disappearance "The story you find is always better than the one you seek." Want to Be a Writer? Start Writing. (36:50.554) Robin asks for writing advice. Simone offers two pillars: Ask These Four Questions: What's the story? Why should people care? Why now? Why you? "Only you can tell the story of buying a café and selling it on Craigslist." Build the Practice: Writing is not just inspiration—it's routine. Schedule it. Join a group. Set deadlines. "Writing is the act of putting your ass in the chair." Robin applauds Simone's book title, How to Not Know, for its playfulness and relevance. He asks how Simone's own relationship with uncertainty has evolved through his research. Simone reflects on how writing his first book, The Good Enough Job, softened his stance, from a hot take to a more nuanced view of work's role in life. Similarly, with his new book, his thinking on uncertainty has shifted. "Uncertainty is uncomfortable by design. That discomfort is what makes us pay attention." Simone once championed uncertainty for its spontaneity and freedom. But now, he sees a more complex dance between certainty and uncertainty. "Certainty begets the ability to become more comfortable with uncertainty." He gives the example of a younger self traveling with no plan, and the maturity of seeing how some people use uncertainty to avoid depth and commitment. Durable Skills for an Unstable Future (43:57.613) Robin shifts to the practical: In a world where stability is fading, what should we teach future generations? Simone shares three core "durable skills": Learn how to learn – Adaptability beats certainty. Tell compelling stories – Human connection never goes out of style. Discern control from chaos – Use a mental decision tree: What can I control? If I can't control it, can I prepare? If I can't prepare, can I accept? "Often we're more uncomfortable with uncertainty than with a certain bad outcome." He cites research showing people are stressed more by maybe getting shocked than actually getting shocked. AI as Editor, Not Author (47:23.765) Robin circles back to AI. Simone explains how his relationship with it has evolved: He never uses it for first drafts or ideation. Instead, AI serves as a "sparring partner" in editing – great at spotting drag, less useful at solving it. "People are often right about something being wrong, but not about the solution. I treat AI the same way." Simone defends creative friction as essential to craft: rewriting, deleting, struggling – that's the work. The Chinese Farmer & the Fallacy of Forecasts (50:27.215) Robin expresses cautious optimism – but also fears AI will widen inequality and erode entry-level jobs. He asks what gives Simone hope. Simone counters with the "Parable of the Chinese Farmer," where events can't be judged good or bad in real time. His conclusion: we don't know enough to be either pessimistic or optimistic. "Maybe AI ushers in civil unrest. Maybe a golden age. Maybe yes, maybe no." He's most hopeful about the growing value of human touch – gifts of time, love, and effort in an increasingly automated world. Where to Find Simone (53:44.845) Website: thegoodenoughjob.com Newsletter: The Article Book Club (monthly articles not written by him, thousands of subscribers) Robin reminds listeners that Simone will be the opening speaker at Responsive Conference 2025, September 17–18. People Mentioned: M'Gilvry Allen Anne Helen Petersen Anis Mojgani Bree Groff Tim Ferriss Steven Pressfield Ernest Hemingway Justin Gordon Organizations Mentioned: Responsive Conference Zander Media Asana, Inc X, The Moonshot Factory (formerly Google X) Waymo, Jewish Community Centers (Boulder & Denver) Robin's Cafe Amazon Google / Alphabet Books & Newsletters The Good Enough Job How to Not Know (upcoming book) The 4‑Hour Workweek Just Go Grind Article Book Club

Welcome back to Snafu w/ Robin Zander. In this episode, I'm joined by Brian Elliott, former Slack executive and co-founder of Future Forum. We discuss the common mistakes leaders make about AI and why trust and transparency are more crucial than ever. Brian shares lessons from building high-performing teams, what makes good leadership, and how to foster real collaboration. He also reflects on raising values-driven kids, the breakdown of institutional trust, and why purpose matters. We touch on the early research behind Future Forum and what he'd do differently today. Brian will also be joining us live at Responsive Conference 2025, and I'm excited to continue the conversation there. If you haven't gotten your tickets yet, get them here. What Do Most People Get Wrong About AI? (1:53) "Senior leaders sit on polar ends of the spectrum on this stuff. Very, very infrequently, sit in the middle, which is kind of where I find myself too often." Robin notes Brian will be co-leading an active session on AI at Responsive Conference with longtime collaborator Helen Kupp. He tees up the conversation by saying Brian holds "a lot of controversial opinions" on AI, not that it's insignificant, but that there's a lot of "idealization." Brian says most senior leaders fall into one of two camps: Camp A: "Oh my God, this changes everything." These are the fear-mongers shouting: "If you don't adopt now, your career is over." Camp B: "This will blow over." They treat AI as just another productivity fad, like others before it. Brian positions himself somewhere in the middle but is frustrated by both ends of the spectrum. He points out that the loudest voices (Mark Benioff, Andy Jassy, Zuckerberg, Sam Altman) are "arms merchants" – they're pushing AI tools because they've invested billions. These tools are massively expensive to build and run, and unless they displace labor, it's unclear how they generate ROI. believe in AI's potential and aggressively push adoption inside their companies. So, naturally, these execs have to: But "nothing ever changes that fast," and both the hype and the dismissal are off-base. Why Playing with AI Matters More Than Training (3:29) AI is materially different from past tech, but what's missing is attention to how adoption happens. "The organizational craft of driving adoption is not about handing out tools. It's all emotional." Adoption depends on whether people respond with fear or aspiration, not whether they have the software. Frontline managers are key: it's their job to create the time and space for teams to experiment with AI. Brian credits Helen Kupp for being great at facilitating this kind of low-stakes experimentation. Suggests teams should "play with AI tools" in a way totally unrelated to their actual job. Example: take a look at your fridge, list the ingredients you have, and have AI suggest a recipe. "Well, that's a sucky recipe, but it could do that, right?" The point isn't utility, it's comfort and conversation: What's OK to use AI for? Is it acceptable to draft your self-assessment for performance reviews with AI? Should you tell your boss or hide it? The Purpose of Doing the Thing (5:30) Robin brings up Ezra Klein's podcast in The New York Times, where Ezra asks: "What's the purpose of writing an essay in college?" AI can now do better research than a student, faster and maybe more accurately. But Robin argues that the act of writing is what matters, not just the output. Says: "I'm much better at writing that letter than ChatGPT can ever be, because only Robin Zander can write that letter." Example: Robin and his partner are in contract on a house and wrote a letter to the seller – the usual "sob story" to win favor. All the writing he's done over the past two years prepared him to write that one letter better. "The utility of doing the thing is not the thing itself – it's what it trains." Learning How to Learn (6:35) Robin's fascinated by "skills that train skills" – a lifelong theme in both work and athletics. He brings up Josh Waitzkin (from Searching for Bobby Fischer), who went from chess prodigy to big wave surfer to foil board rider. Josh trained his surfing skills by riding a OneWheel through NYC, practicing balance in a different context. Robin is drawn to that kind of transfer learning and "meta-learning" – especially since it's so hard to measure or study. He asks: What might AI be training in us that isn't the thing itself? We don't yet know the cognitive effects of using generative AI daily, but we should be asking. Cognitive Risk vs. Capability Boost (8:00) Brian brings up early research suggesting AI could make us "dumber." Outsourcing thinking to AI reduces sharpness over time. But also: the "10,000 repetitions" idea still holds weight – doing the thing builds skill. There's a tension between "performance mode" (getting the thing done) and "growth mode" (learning). He relates it to writing: Says he's a decent writer, not a great one, but wants to keep getting better. Has a "quad project" with an editor who helps refine tone and clarity but doesn't do the writing. The setup: he provides 80% drafts, guidelines, tone notes, and past writing samples. The AI/editor cleans things up, but Brian still reviews: "I want that colloquialism back in." "I want that specific example back in." "That's clunky, I don't want to keep it." Writing is iterative, and tools can help, but shouldn't replace his voice. On Em Dashes & Detecting Human Writing (9:30) Robin shares a trick: he used em dashes long before ChatGPT and does them with a space on either side. He says that ChatGPT's em dashes are double-length and don't have spaces. If you want to prove ChatGPT didn't write something, "just add the space." Brian agrees and jokes that his editors often remove the spaces, but he puts them back in. Reiterates that professional human editors like the ones he works with at Charter and Sloan are still better than AI. Closing the Gap Takes More Than Practice (10:31) Robin references The Gap by Ira Glass, a 2014 video that explores the disconnect between a creator's vision and their current ability to execute on that vision. He highlights Glass's core advice: the only way to close that gap is through consistent repetition – what Glass calls "the reps." Brian agrees, noting that putting in the reps is exactly what creators must do, even when their output doesn't yet meet their standards. Brian also brings up his recent conversation with Nick Petrie, whose work focuses not only on what causes burnout but also on what actually resolves it. He notes research showing that people stuck in repetitive performance mode – like doctors doing the same task for decades – eventually see a decline in performance. Brian recommends mixing in growth opportunities alongside mastery work. "exploit" mode (doing what you're already good at) and "explore" mode (trying something new that pushes you) He says doing things that stretch your boundaries builds muscle that strengthens your core skills and breaks stagnation. He emphasizes the value of alternating between He adds that this applies just as much to personal growth, especially when people begin to question their deeper purpose and ask hard questions like, "Is this all there is to my life or career? Brian observes that stepping back for self-reflection is often necessary, either by choice or because burnout forces a hard stop. He suggests that sustainable performance requires not just consistency but also intentional space for growth, purpose, and honest self-evaluation. Why Taste And Soft Skills Now Matter More Than Ever (12:30) On AI, Brian argues that most people get it wrong. "I do think it's augmentation." The tools are evolving rapidly, and so are the ways we use them. They view it as a way to speed up work, especially for engineers, but that's missing the bigger picture. Brian stresses that EQ is becoming more important than IQ. Companies still need people with developer mindsets – hypothesis-driven, structured thinkers. But now, communication, empathy, and adaptability are no longer optional; they are critical. "Human communication skills just went from 'they kind of suck at it but it's okay' to 'that's not acceptable.'" As AI takes over more specialist tasks, the value of generalists is rising. People who can generate ideas, anticipate consequences, and rally others around a vision will be most valuable. "Tools can handle the specialized knowledge – but only humans can connect it to purpose." Brian warns that traditional job descriptions and org charts are becoming obsolete. Instead of looking for ways to rush employees into doing more work, "rethink the roles. What can a small group do when aligned around a common purpose?" The future lies in small, aligned teams with shared goals. Vision Is Not a Strategy (15:56) Robin reflects on durable human traits through Steve Jobs' bio by Isaac Walterson. Jobs succeeded not just with tech, but with taste, persuasion, charisma, and vision. "He was less technologist, more storyteller." They discuss Sam Altman, the subject of Empire of AI. Whether or not the book is fully accurate, Robin argues that Altman's defining trait is deal-making. Robin shares his experience using ChatGPT in real estate. It changed how he researched topics like redwood root systems on foundational structure and mosquito mitigation. Despite the tech, both agree that human connection is more important than ever. "We need humans now more than ever." Brian references data from Kelly Monahan showing AI power users are highly productive but deeply burned out. 40% more productive than their peers. 88% are completely burnt out. Many don't believe their company's AI strategy, even while using the tools daily. There's a growing disconnect between executive AI hype and on-the-ground experience. But internal tests by top engineers showed only 10% improvement, mostly in simple tasks. "You've got to get into the tools yourself to be fluent on this." One CTO believed AI would produce 30% efficiency gains. Brian urges leaders to personally engage with the tools before making sweeping decisions. He warns against blindly accepting optimistic vendor promises or trends. Leaders pushing AI without firsthand experience risk overburdening their teams. "You're bringing the Kool-Aid and then you're shoving it down your team's throat." This results in burnout, not productivity. "You're cranking up the demands. You're cranking up the burnout, too." "That's not going to lead to what you want either." If You Want Control, Just Say That (20:47) Robin raises the topic of returning to the office, which has been a long-standing area of interest for him. "I interviewed Joel Gascoyne on stage in 2016… the largest fully distributed company in the world at the time." He's tracked distributed work since Responsive 2016. Also mentions Shelby Wolpa (ex-Envision), who scaled thousands remotely. Robin notes the shift post-COVID: companies are mandating returns without adjusting for today's realities." Example: "Intel just did a mandatory 4 days a week return to office… and now people live hours away." He acknowledges the benefits of in-person collaboration, especially in creative or physical industries. "There is an undeniable utility.", especially as they met in Robin's Cafe to talk about Responsive, despite a commute, because it was worth it. But he challenges blanket return-to-office mandates, especially when the rationale is unclear. According to Brian, any company uses RTO as a veiled soft layoff tactic. Cites Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy openly stating RTO is meant to encourage attrition. He says policies without clarity are ineffective. "If you quit, I don't have to pay you severance." Robin notes that the Responsive Manifesto isn't about providing answers but outlining tensions to balance. Before enforcing an RTO policy, leaders should ask: "What problem are we trying to solve – and do we have evidence of it?" Before You Mandate, Check the Data (24:50) Performance data should guide decisions, not executive assumptions. For instance, junior salespeople may benefit from in-person mentorship, but… That may only apply to certain teams, and doesn't justify full mandates. "I've seen situations where productivity has fallen – well-defined productivity." The decision-making process should be decentralized and nuanced. Different teams have different needs — orgs must avoid one-size-fits-all policies, especially in large, distributed orgs. "Should your CEO be making that decision? Or should your head of sales?" Brian offers a two-part test for leaders to assess their RTO logic: Are you trying to attract and retain the best talent? Are your teams co-located or distributed? If the answer to #1 is yes: People will be less engaged, not more. High performers will quietly leave or disengage while staying. Forcing long commutes will hurt retention and morale. If the answer to #2 is "distributed": Brian then tells a story about a JPMorgan IT manager who asks Jamie Dimon for flexibility. "It's freaking stupid… it actually made it harder to do their core work." Instead, teams need to define shared norms and operating agreements. "Teams have to have norms to be effective." RTO makes even less sense. His team spanned time zones and offices, forcing them into daily hurt collaboration. He argues most RTO mandates are driven by fear and a desire for control. More important than office days are questions like: What hours are we available for meetings? What tools do we use and why? How do we make decisions? Who owns which roles and responsibilities? The Bottom Line: The policy must match the structure. If teams are remote by design, dragging them into an office is counterproductive. How to Be a Leader in Chaotic Times (28:34) "We're living in a more chaotic time than any in my lifetime." Robin asks how leaders should guide their organizations through uncertainty. He reflects on his early work years during the 2008 crash and the unpredictability he's seen since. Observes current instability like the UCSF and NIH funding and hiring freezes disrupting universities, rising political violence, and murders of public officials from the McKnight Foundation, and more may persist for years without relief. "I was bussing tables for two weeks, quit, became a personal trainer… my old client jumped out a window because he lost his fortune as a banker." Brian says what's needed now is: Resilience – a mindset of positive realism: acknowledging the issues, while focusing on agency and possibility, and supporting one another. Trust – not just psychological safety, but deep belief in leadership clarity and honesty. His definition of resilience includes: "What options do we have?" "What can we do as a team?" "What's the opportunity in this?" What Builds Trust (and What Breaks It) (31:00) Brian recalls laying off more people than he hired during the dot-com bust – and what helped his team endure: "Here's what we need to do. If you're all in, we'll get through this together." He believes trust is built when: Leaders communicate clearly and early. They acknowledge difficulty, without sugarcoating. They create clarity about what matters most right now. They involve their team in solutions. He critiques companies that delay communication until they're in PR cleanup mode: Like Target's CEO, who responded to backlash months too late – and with vague platitudes. "Of course, he got backlash," Brian says. "He wasn't present." According to him, "Trust isn't just psychological safety. It's also honesty." Trust Makes Work Faster, Better, and More Fun (34:10) "When trust is there, the work is more fun, and the results are better." Robin offers a Zander Media story: Longtime collaborator Jonathan Kofahl lives in Austin. Despite being remote, they prep for shoots with 3-minute calls instead of hour-long meetings. The relationship is fast, fluid, and joyful, and the end product reflects that. He explains the ripple effects of trust: Faster workflows Higher-quality output More fun and less burnout Better client experience Fewer miscommunications or dropped balls He also likens it to acrobatics: "If trust isn't there, you land on your head." Seldom Wrong, Never in Doubt (35:45) "Seldom wrong, never in doubt – that bit me in the butt." Brian reflects on a toxic early-career mantra: As a young consultant, he was taught to project confidence at all times. It was said that "if you show doubt, you lose credibility," especially with older clients. Why that backfired: It made him arrogant. It discouraged honest questions or collaborative problem-solving. It modeled bad leadership for others. Brian critiques the startup world's hero culture: Tech glorifies mavericks and contrarians, people who bet against the grain and win. But we rarely see the 95% who bet big and failed, and the survivors become models, often with toxic effects. The real danger: Leaders try to imitate success without understanding the context. Contrarianism becomes a virtue in itself – even when it's wrong. Now, he models something else: "I can point to the mountain, but I don't know the exact path." Leaders should admit they don't have all the answers. Inviting the team to figure it out together builds alignment and ownership. That's how you lead through uncertainty, by trusting your team to co-create. Slack, Remote Work, and the Birth of Future Forum (37:40) Brian recalls the early days of Future Forum: Slack was deeply office-centric pre-pandemic. He worked 5 days a week in SF, and even interns were expected to show up regularly. Slack's leadership, especially CTO Cal Henderson, was hesitant to go remote, not because they were anti-remote, but because they didn't know how. But when COVID hit, Slack, like everyone else, had to figure out remote work in real time. Brian had long-standing relationships with Slack's internal research team: He pitched Stewart Butterfield (Slack's CEO) on the idea of a think tank, where he was then joined by Helen Kupp and Sheela Subramanian, who became his co-founders in the venture. Thus, Future Forum was born. Christina Janzer, Lucas Puente, and others. Their research was excellent, but mostly internal-facing, used for product and marketing. Brian, self-described as a "data geek," saw an opportunity: Remote Work Increased Belonging, But Not for Everyone (40:56) In mid-2020, Future Forum launched its first major study. Expected finding: employee belonging would drop due to isolation. Reality: it did, but not equally across all demographics. For Black office workers, a sense of belonging actually increased. Future Forum brought in Dr. Brian Lowery, a Black professor at Stanford, to help interpret the results. Lowery explained: "I'm a Black professor at Stanford. Whatever you think of it as a liberal school, if I have to walk on that campus five days a week and be on and not be Black five days a week, 9 to 5 – it's taxing. It's exhausting. If I can dial in and out of that situation, it's a release." A Philosophy Disguised as a Playbook (42:00) Brian, Helen, and Sheela co-authored a book that distilled lessons from: Slack's research Hundreds of executive conversations Real-world trials during the remote work shift One editor even commented on how the book is "more like a philosophy book disguised as a playbook." The key principles are: "Start with what matters to us as an organization. Then ask: What's safe to try?" Policies don't work. Principles do. Norms > mandates. Team-level agreements matter more than companywide rules. Focus on outcomes, not activity. Train your managers. Clarity, trust, and support start there. Safe-to-try experiments. Iterate fast and test what works for your team. Co-create team norms. Define how decisions get made, what tools get used, and when people are available. What's great with the book is that no matter where you are, this same set of rules still applies. When Leadership Means Letting Go (43:54) "My job was to model the kind of presence I wanted my team to show." Robin recalls a defining moment at Robin's Café: Employees were chatting behind the counter while a banana peel sat on the floor, surrounded by dirty dishes. It was a lawsuit waiting to happen. His first impulse was to berate them, a habit from his small business upbringing. But in that moment, he reframed his role. "I'm here to inspire, model, and demonstrate the behavior I want to see." He realized: Hovering behind the counter = surveillance, not leadership. True leadership = empowering your team to care, even when you're not around. You train your manager to create a culture, not compliance. Brian and Robin agree: Rules only go so far. Teams thrive when they believe in the 'why' behind the work. Robin draws a link between strong workplace culture and… The global rise of authoritarianism The erosion of trust in institutions If trust makes Zander Media better, and helps VC-backed companies scale — "Why do our political systems seem to be rewarding the exact opposite?" Populism, Charisma & Bullshit (45:20) According to Robin, "We're in a world where trust is in very short supply." Brian reflects on why authoritarianism is thriving globally: The media is fragmented. Everyone's in different pocket universes. People now get news from YouTube or TikTok, not trusted institutions. Truth is no longer shared, and without shared truth, trust collapses. "Walter Cronkite doesn't exist anymore." He references Andor, where the character, Mon Mothma, says: People no longer trust journalism, government, universities, science, or even business. Edelman's Trust Barometer dipped for business leaders for the first time in 25 years. CEOs who once declared strong values are now going silent, which damages trust even more. "The death of truth is really the problem that's at work here." Robin points out: Trump and Elon, both charismatic, populist figures, continue to gain power despite low trust. Why? Because their clarity and simplicity still outperform thoughtful leadership. He also calls Trump a "marketing genius." Brian's frustration: Case in point: Trump-era officials who spread conspiracy theories now can't walk them back. Populists manufacture distrust, then struggle to govern once in power. He shares a recent example: Result: Their base turned on them. Right-wing pundits (Pam Bondi, Dan Bongino) fanned Jeffrey Epstein conspiracies. But in power, they had to admit: "There's no client list publicly." Brian then suggests that trust should be rebuilt locally. He points to leaders like Zohran Mamdani (NY): "I may not agree with all his positions, but he can articulate a populist vision that isn't exploitative." Where Are the Leaders? (51:19) Brian expresses frustration at the silence from people in power: "I'm disappointed, highly disappointed, in the number of leaders in positions of power and authority who could lend their voice to something as basic as: science is real." He calls for a return to shared facts: "Let's just start with: vaccines do not cause autism. Let's start there." He draws a line between public health and trust: We've had over a century of scientific evidence backing vaccines But misinformation is eroding communal health Brian clarifies: this isn't about wedge issues like guns or Roe v. Wade The problem is that scientists lack public authority, but CEOs don't CEOs of major institutions could shift the narrative, especially those with massive employee bases. And yet, most say nothing: "They know it's going to bite them… and still, no one's saying it." He warns: ignoring this will hurt businesses, frontline workers, and society at large. 89 Seconds from Midnight (52:45) Robin brings up the Doomsday Clock: Historically, it was 2–4 minutes to midnight "We are 89 seconds to midnight." (as of January 2025) This was issued by the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, a symbol of how close humanity is to destroying itself. Despite that, he remains hopeful: "I might be the most energetic person in any room – and yet, I'm a prepper." Robin shared that: And in a real emergency? You might not make it. He grew up in the wilderness, where ambulances don't arrive, and CPR is a ritual of death. He frequently visits Vieques, an island off Puerto Rico with no hospital, where a car crash likely means you won't survive. As there is a saying there that goes, 'No Hay Hospital', meaning 'there is no hospital'. If something serious happens, you're likely a few hours' drive or even a flight away from medical care. That shapes his worldview: "We've forgotten how precious life is in privileged countries." Despite his joy and optimism, Robin is also: Deeply aware of fragility – of systems, bodies, institutions. Committed to preparation, not paranoia. Focused on teaching resilience, care, and responsibility. How to Raise Men with Heart and Backbone (55:00) Robin asks: "How do you counsel your boys to show up as protectors and earners, especially in a capitalist world, while also taking care of people, especially when we're facing the potential end of humanity in our lifetimes?" Brian responds: His sons are now 25 and 23, and he's incredibly proud of who they're becoming. Credits both parenting and luck but he also acknowledges many friends who've had harder parenting experiences. His sons are: Sharp and thoughtful In healthy relationships Focused on values over achievements Educational path: "They think deeply about what are now called 'social justice' issues in a very real way." Example: In 4th grade, their class did a homelessness simulation – replicating the fragmented, frustrating process of accessing services. Preschool at the Jewish Community Center Elementary at a Quaker school in San Francisco He jokes that they needed a Buddhist high school to complete the loop Not religious, but values-based, non-dogmatic education had a real impact That hands-on empathy helped them see systemic problems early on, especially in San Francisco, where it's worse. What Is Actually Enough? (56:54) "We were terrified our kids would take their comfort for granted." Brian's kids: Lived modestly, but comfortably in San Francisco. Took vacations, had more than he and his wife did growing up. Worried their sons would chase status over substance. But what he taught them instead: Family matters. Friendships matter. Being dependable matters. Not just being good, but being someone others can count on. He also cautioned against: "We too often push kids toward something unattainable, and we act surprised when they burn out in the pursuit of that." The "gold ring" mentality is like chasing elite schools, careers, and accolades. In sports and academics, he and his wife aimed for balance, not obsession. Brian on Parenting, Purpose, and Perspective (59:15) Brian sees promise in his kids' generation: But also more: Purpose-driven Skeptical of false promises Less obsessed with traditional success markers Yes, they're more stressed and overamped on social media. Gen Z has been labeled just like every generation before: "I'm Gen X. They literally made a movie about us called Slackers." He believes the best thing we can do is: Model what matters Spend time reflecting: What really does matter? Help the next generation define enough for themselves, earlier than we did. The Real Measure of Success (1:00:07) Brian references Clay Christensen, famed author of The Innovator's Dilemma and How Will You Measure Your Life? Clay's insight: "Success isn't what you thought it was." Early reunions are full of bravado – titles, accomplishments, money. Later reunions reveal divorce, estrangement, and regret. The longer you go, the more you see: Brian's takeaway: Even for Elon, it might be about Mars. But for most of us, it's not about how many projects we shipped. It's about: Family Friends Presence Meaning "If you can realize that earlier, you give yourself the chance to adjust – and find your way back." Where to Find Brian (01:02:05) LinkedIn WorkForward.com Newsletter: The Work Forward on Substack "Some weeks it's lame, some weeks it's great. But there's a lot of community and feedback." And of course, join us at Responsive Conference this September 17-18, 2025. Books Mentioned How Will You Measure Your Life? by Clayton Christensen The Innovator's Dilemma by Clayton Christensen Responsive Manifesto Empire of AI by Karen Hao Podcasts Mentioned The Gap by Ira Glass The Ezra Klein Show Movies Mentioned Andor Slackers Organizations Mentioned: Bulletin of Atomic Scientists McKnight Foundation National Institutes of Health (NIH) Responsive.org University of California, San Francisco

Hello and welcome back to Snafu, a podcast about behavior change. For today's episode, I sat down with Carole Robin, PhD – an expert in leadership development and interpersonal dynamics. She is best known for her work at Stanford Graduate School of Business, where she taught the infamous "Interpersonal Dynamics" course. This course is considered one of the most transformative experiences for MBA students. Her expertise in this field led her to co-author the book Connect: Building Exceptional Relationships with Family, Friends and Colleagues, which was featured as one of Bloomberg's Best Books of 2021. In this episode, we talk about the key to great leadership, why relationships are so important in your life, what we can expect from her at Responsive Conference 2024, and more. Carole is an official speaker at Responsive Conference 2024! If you haven't yet, get your tickets here: https://www.responsiveconference.com/tickets It was a pleasure having Carole on the podcast!

Hello and welcome back to Snafu, a podcast about behavior change.! For today's episode, I sat down with Abby Davisson, former president of the Gap Foundation, and author who has worked in the fields of social impact and corporate philanthropy. Abby believes in using business to make positive changes in society. She recently published a book called Money and Love: An Intelligent Roadmap for Life's Biggest Decisions. In this book, she talks about how to make important choices in life, especially when it comes to balancing money concerns with personal relationships and happiness. In this episode, we talk about social impact through work, money being more taboo than sex, going from intern to president at Gap Foundation, why her graduate degree was the best investment of her life, and much more. Abby is also an official speaker at Responsive Conference 2024! If you haven't yet, get your tickets here: https://www.responsiveconference.com/tickets It was a pleasure having Abby on the podcast!