Sounds of SAND

Dr. Cynthia Li joins us to talk about her new book, The Medicine of Flow. Trained as an internist, Cynthia developed an autoimmune condition and then chronic fatigue and dysautonomia, illnesses largely dismissed at the time as being in her head. Her own body pushed her out of the paradigm she was trained in and into functional medicine, qigong, and intuitive healing. A decade later, a second crisis took her back to housebound and taught her what all her effort hadn't: coherence, and what she calls embodied flow. We talk about surrender that isn't passivity, why nervous system regulation is only part of the picture, and how coherence moves between bodies. Guest Cynthia Li, MD, is a physician who moved from public health to integrative medicine and intuitive healing, with earlier work at Kaiser Permanente's HIV/AIDS group, San Francisco General Hospital, St. Anthony Clinic, and Doctors Without Borders in rural China. A certified qigong teacher and healer since 2014, she has served as faculty for Rachel Remen's Healer's Art program at UCSF, and her story appeared in Dr. Kelly Turner's Radical Remission documentary. She is the author of Brave New Medicine and The Medicine of Flow (May 2026). Timestamps 00:00 Introduction 00:01 From internist to patient: the first illness 00:05 Intuitive medicine, and learning to rule things in 00:07 The second health crisis and the turn to surrender 00:09 What coherence is, and why it isn't just relaxation 00:14 Too many apps: the body in incoherence 00:23 Breath, spiritus, and the nondual 00:27 Physics 101: why we are electromagnetic beings 00:31 Coherence in a time of polycrisis 00:34 Overlapping fields, and the living mandala 00:40 Why the collective comes sixth 00:47 Bamboo in the wind, and whether the future of medicine is ancient Books and practices The Medicine of Flow: Harmonizing Your Inner State for Effortless Healing (Reveal Press, May 2026) Brave New Medicine: A Doctor's Unconventional Path to Healing Her Autoimmune Illness (New Harbinger, 2019) Embodied Flow Methods, free guided audio and video for the practices in the book, including coherent breathing and a downloadable 30-day worksheet Find Cynthia cynthialimd.com Instagram LinkedIn Facebook Psychology Today Her New York Times piece on the pandemic, poverty, and homelessness Going deeper Awakin Call with Michael Lerner, July 2026, on The Medicine of Flow Her first Awakin Call, 2020, on healing from the first crisis HeartMath Institute, the heart coherence and HRV research referenced in the conversation Contact SAND [email protected] Support the mission of SAND and the production of this podcast by becoming a SAND Member

Pir Zia on the secret history of the world From a nondual perspective, aren't the world's great spiritual traditions expressions of a single living wisdom? In this intimate conversation, Pir Zia Inayat Khan explores the inspiration behind Tears from the Mother of the Sun, a sweeping mythic chronicle of sages, exiles, and revelations spanning continents and planes of existence. Drawing on sacred stories from Persia, India, Egypt and beyond, the book weaves the world's legends into a vision of humanity's shared spiritual inheritance. Together we discover the place of myth in a modern world, the imagination as a path of knowing, and the role of our deepest stories in restoring a sense of belonging to one another, to the Earth, and to the mystery that animates us all. Topics 00:00 Welcome 00:03 Growing up in a universalist lineage 00:06 Ferdowsi, Soroush, and the frame of the book 00:11 Why the world's traditions belong to one story 00:14 History as a living stream: the three worlds 00:16 The Mongols, violence, and unification 00:19 "I was a hidden treasure": the beginning of history 00:22 Syzygy, and the question of AI 00:29 Honoring the Earth inside our devices 00:34 Isis, Osiris, and the birth of music at Gaza 00:43 Grief, contraction, and the opening of the heart 00:49 Rabia, Noor Inayat Khan, and the green shoots Pir Zia Inayat Khan Pir Zia Inayat Khan, PhD, is a scholar of religion and teacher of Sufism in the universalist Sufi lineage of his grandfather, Hazrat Inayat Khan. He is president of the Inayatiyya and founder of Sulūk Academy, a school of Sufi contemplative study and practice. He divides his time between Richmond, Virginia and Suresnes, France. pirzia.org Inayatiyya Sulūk Academy The book Tears from the Mother of the Sun: A Secret History of the World, Inner Traditions, 2026, with full-color paintings by Amruta Patil Amruta Patil, writer, painter, and India's first female graphic novelist, author of Kari, Adi Parva, Sauptik, and Aranyaka Also by Pir Zia Immortality: A Traveler's Guide Mingled Waters: Sufism and the Mystical Unity of Religions Saracen Chivalry: Counsels on Valor, Generosity and the Mystical Quest Dream Flowers: The Collected Works of Noor Inayat Khan Caravan of Souls: An Introduction to the Sufi Path of Hazrat Inayat Khan (editor) Figures and ideas in the conversation Lineage Hazrat Inayat Khan (1882–1927), who brought universal Sufism to the West Pir Vilayat Inayat Khan, who convened interspiritual dialogues and conversations with modern science, including with David Bohm Noor Inayat Khan, storyteller, author of children's tales and retellings of the Jātaka tales, and SOE wireless operator in occupied France. Killed at Dachau in 1944. Her last word was liberté. Persia and the frame of the book Ferdowsi, author of the Shahnameh, who died in Tus believing his life's work had come to nothing Soroush, the tutelary daimon who narrates the book The Ishraqi or Illuminationist tradition Sufi teaching The Hadith Qudsi: I was a hidden treasure and I longed to be known, so I created the world that I might be known Rabia al-Adawiyya, who carried a torch to burn down paradise and water to quench the fires of hell, so that God would be loved for God's own sake Najm al-Din Kubra, killed on the battlefield during the Mongol invasion Qabz and bast, contraction and expansion Ar-Rahman, Ar-Rahim, and rahma as the action of the womb History, empire, and emanation Genghis Khan and the Palace of Myriad Peace at Karakorum Akbar and the interreligious debates at Fatehpur Sikri, under the policy of sulh-i-kul, peace with all Tahqiq, experiential knowing, as against taqlid, following what one has heard Avicenna and the three contemplations of emanation Syzygy, the alignment of beings into a molecule of spiritual work Isis and the birth of music The story of Isis and Osiris as told by Plutarch, in which Isis buries Osiris at Gaza and blesses a boy named Palestinos, who becomes the first musician Sirius, whose rising signals the Nile flood, understood as the tears of Isis Also mentioned Descending into Light: A Pilgrimage to the Center of the Earth, a seven-week series with Pir Zia and Yuz Ata, October 11 to November 22, 2026 Rumi & The Fire of Radical Love: A Path Through Global Rupture, a four-part SAND course with Omid Safi. Sessions on August 30 and September 6 still to come. The Eternal Song, SAND's collection of twelve films Support this gathering

The third conversation in "The Great AI Unraveling", recorded live with our community on July 10, 2026. Throughout time, humanity has experimented with playing God, and each time we have been humbled by forces larger than ourselves. Many Indigenous Nations consciously chose not to pursue certain technologies, recognizing that not every innovation serves life, and that wisdom lies in understanding the boundaries of nature and those of our human condition. As artificial intelligence promises ever greater efficiency, productivity, and control, we are invited to ask a deeper question: Which problem are we really trying to solve? Beneath the relentless pursuit of more—more knowledge, more power, more convenience—lies a profound inquiry into sufficiency, relationship, and meaning. Guests Dr. Lyla June Johnston (aka Lyla June) is an Indigenous musician, scholar, and community organizer of Diné (Navajo), Tsétsêhéstâhese (Cheyenne) and European lineages. Her messages focus on Indigenous rights, supporting youth, traditional land stewardship practices and healing inter-generational and inter-cultural trauma. She blends her study of Human Ecology at Stanford, graduate work in Indigenous Pedagogy, and the traditional worldview she grew up with to inform her music, perspectives and solutions. Her doctoral research focused on the ways in which pre-colonial Indigenous Nations shaped large regions of Turtle Island (aka the Americas) to produce abundant food systems for humans and non-humans. Ashley Nicole Leitka comes from the Absentee Shawnee Tribe of Oklahoma and the Oglala and Sicangu Lakota nations. She lives on Absentee Shawnee land in so-called Oklahoma and is the Director of the Department of Sovereignty and Self-Determination at Honor the Earth. Kathy Wan Povi Sanchez is a native spirit-rooted social activist, community educator, traditional blackware potter, and fluent Tewa language speaker from the Tewa Pueblo of San Ildefonso in New Mexico. For more than two decades, she has been a guiding force within Tewa Women United, advancing environmental justice, cultural revitalization, healing, and social transformation. A respected elder, teacher, and mentor, Kathy developed the acclaimed Two World Harmony Butterfly Model and Trauma Rocks, innovative frameworks that support cross-cultural understanding and intergenerational healing. Her lifelong work bridges Indigenous wisdom, environmental stewardship, community empowerment, and the protection of cultural and spiritual traditions. Through local, national, and international advocacy, she continues to inspire pathways of healing, resilience, and right relationship with the Earth and one another. Topics 00:00:00 — Welcome and The Great AI Unraveling 00:04:00 — Superfluity: what if we don't need it 00:08:00 — The maple syrup story 00:12:00 — Kathy Wan Povi Sanchez on natural law 00:19:00 — Data centers on Native land 00:24:00 — Falsely generated demand and cognitive decline 00:27:00 — The data center toolkit and Stop Data Colonialism 00:30:00 — AI as ancestral intelligence: the Butterfly Model 00:38:00 — Why ceremony is never filmed 00:39:00 — Water, energy, and the growth curve 00:48:00 — Surveillance, ICE, and biometrics 00:57:00 — Yvette Running Horse Collin on Lakota science 00:58:00 — Einstein, Hiroshima, and being humbled 01:01:00 — Choosing oral tradition 01:08:00 — Love is the greatest technology 01:10:00 — A litmus test for any technology Resources & Links Lyla June — lylajune.com Tewa Women United — tewawomenunited.org Honor the Earth Honor the Earth data center toolkit Stop Data Colonialism, national coalition and manifesto Big Tech Is Now Targeting Native American Land for Massive Data Centers, The New York Times, July 2026 Yvette Running Horse Collin on Lakota science, interviewed in Science ACLU campaign on Flock surveillance cameras  Ashley Nicole Leitka and Dallas Goldtooth in conversation The Great AI Unraveling series #1 AI risks, societal impacts, and apocaloptimism: Tristan Harris #2 Reclaiming the Conversation and the Commons: Tiokasin Ghosthorse and Pooja Prema Upcoming guests: Christian "Zacatecho" Ortiz, Bayo Akomolafe, Vanessa Machado de Oliveira, Alnoor Ladha, Baratunde Thurston, and Thema Monroe-White Contact SAND [email protected] Support the mission of SAND and the production of this podcast by becoming a SAND Member

Clinical psychologist and longtime Buddhist meditator Dr. Nicole Wordlaw joins us to talk about her new memoir, Waking Up Alone: Navigating the Narrow Passage Through Master-Slave Narratives. Nicole came to practice to end suffering, and found instead that enlightenment as an arrival, all bliss, all peace, was one more construction of the conditioned mind. The conversation moves through the single pattern she came to see beneath white supremacy, patriarchy, and the harm spiritual teachers do to their students; writing as prayer; pain as a door; and the intergenerational line of women whose voices run through the book. A tender and unflinching conversation about telling the whole story, uprooting the internal oppressor, and the quiet, still voice that always sounds like Love. Dr. Nicole Wordlaw is a clinical psychologist and longtime practitioner of Buddhist meditation whose work bridges psychology, spirituality, and identity. The daughter of a white mother and a Black father, Dr. Wordlaw brings a deeply personal understanding of belonging and self-discovery to her writing and teaching. A Stanford University graduate with honors and distinction, she went on to earn her Ph.D. in clinical psychology from UC Berkeley. In her forthcoming book Waking Up Alone, she vulnerably shares her story of trauma and awakening, and offers gentle guidance for her readers to tune into the quiet voice of truth within. Topics 00:00:00 — Introduction 00:01:00 — Coming to Buddhism 00:02:00 — Enlightenment as construction 00:05:00 — Love meeting pain 00:06:00 — One pattern of harm 00:09:00 — Writing as prayer 00:11:00 — A naked story 00:15:00 — Somatic abolitionism 00:19:00 — A long line of women 00:23:00 — Shadow and teacher misconduct 00:24:00 — The Sangha Sutra 00:34:00 — Risking making sense to no one 00:38:00 — The Word Story 00:42:00 — The inner teacher 00:47:00 — Love is not an idea Resources & Links Dr. Nicole Wordlaw Website: nicolewordlaw.com Waking Up Alone: Navigating the Narrow Passage Through Master-Slave Narratives — out now Substack Referenced in the conversation Sounds of SAND — Somatic Abolitionism: Resmaa Menakem & Gabor Maté Sounds of SAND — The Architecture of Silence in Spiritual Culture Steve Hagen — Buddhism Plain and Simple Nisargadatta Maharaj — I Am That  Contact SAND [email protected] Support the mission of SAND and the production of this podcast by becoming a SAND Member