SuperCreativity Podcast with James Taylor | Creativity, Innovation and Inspiring Ideas

The World of Creativity: Lessons from 75 Countries with Fredrik Haren #363 In this episode of the SuperCreativity Podcast, James Taylor welcomes back Fredrik Haren, the globally renowned Creativity Explorer and author of The World of Creativity: A Journey Across 37 Countries to Discover the Secrets of Creative Minds. Over the past 25 years, Fredrik has travelled to more than 75 countries, meeting everyone from artists in Afghan villages to innovation leaders in global corporations — all to answer one question: What is creativity? In this fascinating and deeply human conversation, Fredrik shares the most powerful lessons he’s learned from creative people across cultures — from Thailand’s idea naps and Finland’s love of questions, to Japan’s Kaizen and America’s “move fast and break things.” Together, they explore how curiosity fuels creativity, why we must fall in love with the process (not the outcome), and how to un-alienate people to bold new ideas. Whether you’re a leader, artist, or lifelong learner, this episode will help you see creativity not as a skill reserved for the few, but as a global language of exploration, humility, and connection. Notable Quotes “You can’t master what you don’t understand — and most people don’t understand the creative process.” – Fredrik Haren “If you want to be more creative, become more curious.” – Fredrik Haren “Don’t be a developed person; be a developing one. Stay soft, stay adaptable.” – Fredrik Haren “Sometimes the smartest way to innovate is to make the alien familiar.” – Fredrik Haren “Creativity isn’t about speed or slowness — it’s about knowing when to go fast and when to be patient.” – Fredrik Haren Resources and Links Book: The World of Creativity: A Journey Across 37 Countries to Discover the Secrets of Creative Minds Website: fredrikharen.com Recommended Read: Breath: The New Science of a Lost Art by James Nestor Connect with Fredrik: Search “The Creativity Explorer” on Google or LinkedIn Apple Podcast Spotify Podcast Takeaways Creativity loves process, not product — The most creative people fall in love with the how, not just the what. Curiosity is the fuel of creativity — In languages like Finnish and Bulgarian, the word for “curious” literally means “love of asking questions.” Developing vs. developed mindsets — Declaring yourself “developed” kills innovation; true progress means staying open and unfinished. Un-alienate new ideas — To introduce radical change, make the unfamiliar feel familiar through gradual storytelling and empathy. Balance exploration and reflection — Fredrik’s creative rhythm alternates between global travel (inspiration) and quiet solitude on his private island (reflection). In his upcoming book, James Taylor delves into the transformative concept of SuperCreativity™—the art of amplifying your creative potential through collaboration with both humans and machines. Drawing from his experiences speaking in over 30 countries, James combines compelling stories, case studies, and practical strategies to help readers unlock innovation and harness the power of AI-driven tools. This book is a must-read for anyone looking to elevate their creativity and thrive in the modern age of human-machine collaboration. James Taylor is a highly sought-after keynote speaker, often booked months or even years in advance due to his exceptional expertise. Given his limited availability, it’s crucial to contact him early if you’re interested in securing a date or learning how he can enhance your event. Reach out to James Taylor now for an opportunity to bring his unique insights to your conference or team. Enquire Now The Creativity Blueprint Free 3-Part Video Training Series On How To Unlock Your Creative Potential, Break Down Creative Blocks, and Unleash Your Creative GeniusFREE training video shows you how to unlock your creative potential in 5 simple steps. The world’s top creative individuals and organizations use these exact strategies. The 7-Figure Speaker Blueprint FREE training video shows you the ten ways to make $1,000,000 from your speaking. The world’s top professional speakers use these exact strategies.In this first FREE video series, award-winning keynote speaker James Taylor reveals how to become a 7-figure speaker. CHAPTERS Timestamps00:00 – Introduction to Fredrik Haren and The World of Creativity 01:31 – What it means to be a “Creativity Explorer” 02:55 – Why so few people actively develop their creativity 04:22 – Loving the process: the German brewer’s lesson 06:18 – Creativity as practice, not performance 07:56 – The student mindset and the power of curiosity 09:52 – Cultural biases in creativity and the danger of “developed” thinking 11:50 – Why progress stalls in the most advanced countries 13:43 – The psychology of complacency and lack of imagination 17:04 – “Un-alienating” ideas: how to make the new less scary 19:45 – Lessons from Thai “idea naps” and Sabai Sabai philosophy 22:35 – The neuroscience of rest and creativity 24:20 – Fredrik’s creative process: selective seclusion and exploration 26:10 – Globalization and why sameness kills creativity 29:46 – Cultural fusion vs. cultural flattening 31:32 – Kaizen vs. “move fast and break things” — two creative speeds 32:33 – Profound patience: creativity lessons from Afghanistan 36:12 – AI, safety, and the speed of innovation 37:04 – How to explore creativity without leaving your city 39:30 – Storytelling, curiosity, and human connection 40:29 – Inspiration vs. respiration: why ideas need to be acted on 41:51 – Fredrik’s current book recommendation: Breath by James Nestor43:05 – Where to find Fredrik and pre-order The World of Creativity TRANSCRIPT James Taylor (00:09)Today's guest is Fredrik Haren known to many as the creativity explorer. Over the past 25 years, Fredrik has traversed more than 60 countries to uncover the hidden rhythms of creative life, from artists in remote villages to tech innovators in global capitals. His book, The World of Creativity, a Journey Across 37 Countries to Discover the Secrets of Creative Minds, is not a how-to manual, it's a map of how creativity actually lives, breathes and adapts across cultures. Fredrik's own story is creative. He built and sold a company, then pivoted to a life of storytelling, exploration, and keynote speaking, shifting continents and mindsets along the way. So whether you're curious about how to take ideas from local to global, or how your environment can become your creative teacher, then this is a conversation I think you're really gonna enjoy. Fredrik Haren, please welcome, I welcome you to the SuperCreativity Podcast. Fredrik Haren (01:01) Thank you so much. So happy to be here. James Taylor (01:04) Now you've been on this show before and so I will put a link for people who want to listen to that and we talked a little bit more about your background, your story, but I remember when I met you at an event or we were a conversation recently and I was asking you kind of how you describe today what you do, how you think of your identity, what you do today. So if someone come up to you at a party or you're sitting on a plane sitting next to you, how do you describe what you do? Fredrik Haren (01:31) Well, then I would describe myself as the creativity explorer, as you just did. But then what does it mean to be the creativity explorer? the more I basically, to explore means to venture into unknown territory in order to learn more about something. And that's what I do about creativity. But the way what I realized is what I really enjoy is meeting with people around the world from all walks of life and to discover what they can teach me about creativity. So it's this meet, it's this encounters with other creative people and the lessons they can teach us. The more people I interview, the more I realized that that's where the interesting stuff. James Taylor (02:16) I remember watching one of the very first videos I ever saw of you and you asked a question to the audience about how many of you consider yourself creative. And I'm interested, as you've traveled around the world, does that number differ? Does that percentage in the room differ or does it differ more by industries that you're speaking for? Fredrik Haren (02:36) It does differ through industries. It also differs through countries. So I was in Cannes on Friday and I interviewed, I did a speech for lawyers and lawyers tend to be more confident than the average profession. But on the hand, they were from Finland, which is slightly above average, but not super high. So we got around 70 % there. So countries and cultures and professions both affected how people answer. But recently I've... James Taylor (02:55) Yeah. Fredrik Haren (03:05) I've added another question. So I've asked this question. Do you think you are, do you think creativity is important in your job? And then I asked the second question, do you think you are creative? I've started to ask, and that I've been asking over a million people, but recently I've asked, I added another question and that question is, do you think you're doing enough to develop your creativity? And the funny thing is that almost no one says yes. Not the people who don't think they are creative. But also not the people who raise their hand and say they are creative. They also don't think, they usually don't say, yes, I'm doing enough. Or basically they are saying, I could do more. And that's the thing that fascinates me the most right now. Like how do we get people to want to become a little bit more creative or a lot more creative? James Taylor (03:49) So if we think we had a guest on the show, Professor ⁓ Anna Abraham, who from the Torrance ⁓ School of Creativity in the US, and she was talking about this idea that creativity being like a muscle is something you can improve ⁓ on over the ages. So why do you feel most people... don't have a sense that is like working out and going to a gym something that they can improve on over time. Is that the issue they just don't think is possible or is the issue that you know it's just not something that's just not on their radar at all? Fredrik Haren (04:22) I think it's that we don't think about it enough as a process. so I, one of the first sentences in the book that's coming out now, I'm so sure we're going to talk about it. One of the sentences in the book is you can't master that which you don't understand. And most people don't understand the creative process. So that, and that's, that's what I want people to understand, to become better at, to understand them. And I, one of the people I mentioned in the book is a German brewer, like a student of, he went to a brewery school. He's a German. It's the oldest brewery school in the world. They've been brewing beer in the same location for 700 years and they have a brewery school there. So it's super cool. But he said there are two kinds of people who apply to the brewery school. Half of the students love beer. They just love drinking beer, right? And they say, maybe I should work with beer and make beer. And the other half, they love like chemistry. They like the process of making beer. And he said it's a two year course, but after one year, half of the students have quit. Almost all come from the same category. Which category quit? James Taylor (05:29) This first group is the ones that just like drinking beer. Fredrik Haren (05:32) Exactly. So they get super bored when they have to study all that. They just don't want the beer to come out at the end. But the people who love the process, that's like, oh, I wonder why this happened. And it doesn't matter what creative process we're thinking about. If we're thinking about delivering a speech, like you and I do, or brewing beer, or painting, or whatever it is, the truly creative ones are the ones that are in love with the process. And if we can learn to master the creative process, learn more about how the creative process works, we will become more creative. So that's the mission I'm on right now. James Taylor (06:08) It's almost a little bit like those that think that Scott Adams, the artist who said, ⁓ you should focus on ⁓ process, not outcomes. I think that was the way that he said it. So, you know, he said, if you're going, if you wanted to get fit, rather than focus on, I wanna lose a stone, you say, every day, I'm gonna walk. Fredrik Haren (06:18) Mmm, yeah, exactly. James Taylor (06:28) you for 10 times, you I just, kind of, you turn it more process driven and then it allows a little bit more flexibility and a bit more fun perhaps with it. We had a guest on the other day, just talked about tiny experiments. You know, sometimes we get overly fixated on these big things, but actually if you take it from the perspective of you're like a laboratory technician, a scientist going in, like, what can I explore today? Like, what can I test today to see how this process is going to change? Then I guess you kind of, you, fall in you can fall in love with that process even if the end outcome is not maybe the thing that you thought of like a scientist, no. Fredrik Haren (07:00) Yes. It's not even the most important thing for most people. I mean, that's a lot of people contact me and say, oh, I want to become a keynote speaker. And I say, usually say, so why? And the people who say, oh, I love being on the stage. I are the ones I'm the most skeptical about. I mean, and I like, you know, I really like you as a speaker because you are very focused on the process, both the speaking process, the writing process, the selling process. You're a process guy and you're very successful in it. James Taylor (07:28) Yeah. Fredrik Haren (07:31) It's the people who, and I just interviewed a musician in Indonesia. He writes all kinds, he's in a band, he writes movie music, all kinds of stuff. He's been doing it for, I don't know, 40 years. But when I asked him to introduce himself, he didn't say, hello, I am a musician. He said, I am a student of music. And I think that was so beautiful. Because when you're a student of music, you're never dumb. James Taylor (07:56) student. Fredrik Haren (07:58) You always just want to continue to learn and you want to know how does that work and how does that person do that and why is it that way? And if you approach it that way again, you're loving the process of it and if you fail it's just an interesting learning experience, right? It's part of the process. James Taylor (08:13) So it's almost like, know, that going back almost like one step before the creativity bit, I think like is almost the curiosity bit, the fuel that you put in. that's the, know, by saying you're a student of, it's also that kind of ends that beginner's mind, that kind of Zen beginner's mind of like, I'm a student, I'm curious, like what's this gonna be? And then maybe what you do is ends up being creative in the process, but that's not necessarily the key driver. Fredrik Haren (08:20) Hmm. Yes. Yes. And I just learned it yesterday on Friday because I was doing a speech for Finnish people. And I speak about curiosity because I think curiosity is the number one thing for creativity. It's the one, it's the strongest trigger. If you want to become more creative, become more curious. The Finnish word for curious, if I remember it correctly, is Utteleas. And Utteleas means the love of asking questions. Someone who loves asking questions. And the student of music, I mean, that implies that you go and ask them, like, how did you do that? And so I love the curi... It's also the same in Bulgarian, if I'm not wrong. It's lupiten, which means the same thing. It's the love of asking questions. So I love those languages that where curiosity means loving asking questions. I want to more, I want to keep finding out more. I'm going to ask one more question. Before you go, one more question. That is the essence of curiosity. James Taylor (09:39) Curiosita, as they say in Latin. So you speak of, in the book, rigid processes, kind of blocking innovation. So in your travels, you travel to all these different countries, look at creativity in all different kind of ways. Yeah. Fredrik Haren (09:52) I have to correct you though. The internet is not always right. It's not 60 countries, it's 75 countries. James Taylor (09:58) 75, okay, we're gonna add, you can never trust Wikipedia in this thing, but as you've looked, you've traveled around these countries, where have you seen kind of creative systems fail or kind of formalize processes for creativity and innovation where it hasn't worked and where maybe structures kind of suffocated? possibilities and how did those creatives, how did they kind of navigate structures so they can actually get to the thing they actually want to get to? Which examples did you see where there was some blockers up there to ⁓ innovation creativity and how did those individuals try to overcome some of those blockers? Fredrik Haren (10:42) Yeah, it's important to understand that the book is not about how creativity, like how one culture looks at creativity. I'm not an anthropologist. This book is about how I meet with creative people around the world and what they teach me about creativity. But in some cases, like for example, language will affect how we think and so on. But to answer your question, I wrote another book a few years ago, actually many years ago now, 2010 maybe? and it's called the Developing World. And the essence of that book is that it's very dangerous to call yourself a developed country because when you call yourself a developed country, you define yourself as being done. the developed means done, right? That's what it means. While developing means I'm still growing. So developed cement is solid, but developing cement is still soft. You can still change it. So I think the biggest mistake the Developed World did was by defining yourself as being developed, meaning we are more or less done. Because of course we're not done. Like 500 years from now they're gonna look at us and say how on earth could they ever think they were done? they were so, sorry. James Taylor (11:50) They weren't going around in flying cars. How could they possibly have gone... I just need to go to Dubai for that. Fredrik Haren (11:53) Oh, flying cars we have already. Come on. We don't even imagine what they are going to look at. are they going to... So I did a speech. I do speeches in Norway, the most developed country on earth, the richest country, one of the most peaceful countries. They have all the potential. And you ask Norwegians, do you think Norway will be better tomorrow than it is today? 90 % say no. They're like, oh, we've reached, we can't get better than this. I said, come on. That's like looking at someone who's going to Harvard with a rich parent and say, my life can't get better than this. Of course it can. When you go to a developed country where people are much less fortunate, but they look, yeah, of course my life will be better. And so the idea of looking at your side, and I'll give you a very sad example, Sweden, where I left Singapore and moved back to Sweden. Sweden still doesn't have a single airport that has an automatic passport machine reading capability. It's not a single, not even a trial. Okay, Singapore has only that. Like there's a hundred percent have that. And then if it doesn't work, there's one person sitting there to help you. And I was recently coming into Sweden. I had to queue up for like 20 minutes because a human had to look at my passport and they don't have enough humans. And I finally come up and I say, why don't you have this in Sweden? They have this in Singapore since 10 years. And the person there says, that's cute. And then I got so angry. So I went back and I Googled it. It turns out Mongolia has it. How on earth can Mongolia have a technology that Sweden doesn't have? It blows my mind. And the only reason is we think we're so great. So we need to constantly challenge how we do things. And we also have to understand that nothing is not even close to being done. No technology, no process, no procedure is even close to being perfect yet. And we need to stop that mentality. James Taylor (13:43) So that mentality, where is, do you have a sense? Because obviously you've gone around different countries and obviously Norway has this going on, I'm in the UK just now, Sweden, we often have this, in the UK we call it that'll do syndrome, that'll do. It's good enough, that'll do. And then I look at... They've just built the highest bridge ever in China, and I used to live in China as well. Unbelievable feat of engineering, and they've done it in kind of record time. And I wonder, okay, well, why in these supposedly developed countries has that mindset got in, saying, you don't need to be more creative, that'll do. Where does it stem from? Because I don't think it's maybe just a Western thing. Obviously, you travel into different parts, you go to different parts of Asia, and you see it in other parts of the world as well. What's going on there? Fredrik Haren (14:35) No, I think I said it is a mindset more than anything else. It's partly the fact that we think we're so advanced versus others, which and then it's partly ignorance thinking we're so much better than they are. And then it's lack of imagination. They can't get better than this. Of course, of course. Like I saw an interesting, interesting graph of the largest ship ever built through hundreds of years. And I don't remember the statistics now, but roughly, let's say every hundredth year. the largest ship ever built is twice the size of what it was 100 years ago. Here's an interesting fact. Every time when they built that ship, people have said, that's the biggest ship we can ever build. And then 100 years later, we have doubled in size. And now recently, they released the biggest ship ever built, which is like twice as the size that it was X amount of years ago. And people go, yeah, and now we've reached the limit. We can't build bigger than this. Yeah, right. Yeah, probably. Right now, we've reached the limit of ship building. So the lack of imagination is a huge problem. James Taylor (15:31) But I- But I guess there is also something obviously within the psychology of people as well about... being reticent to change, reticent to kind of applying creativity, reticent to the big jump forwards. There was an event I did, I actually did two events recently, I spoke at them and one of the other speakers was a guy called Zach Cass. I don't know whether you've maybe spoken on similar events with him and Zach from, used to be at OpenAI. And he tells a story which I think is quite an interesting story, which is when they first brought in elevators. he said, up ⁓ until that point, no building was taller than three stories, I think it was. whoever invented the elevator, I'm not sure who invented the elevator, but they put the first elevator and the problem that they had is no one would get into it. They thought, why would I go into a box? So they had to do two things. They had to put an attendant. Their sole job was just to press the buttons, which floor do you want? And then the other thing they had to do, which was like a psychology thing, they had to put mirrors inside. So when you went in, the first thing you did was look at yourself rather than look at the room. And then gradually they could remove the attendant and then maybe gradually they could move that. But then after that point, it was possible to build buildings taller than three stories. And that, previously people, you can't go higher than that because it's going to take too long to walk up the stairs as well. So it feels like sometimes you have these inflection points a little bit, but have to find clever ways, creative ways to take people on that journey with you. Fredrik Haren (17:04) Yes. And one of the people I interviewed in the book is she introduces the concept of un-alienating. So when you see something new, like something that's new to you or something that you think like, we can't build bigger, higher buildings than this, like Burj Khalifa. Now Saudi Arabia is going to build something that's twice as big as that. Like, how is that possible? whatever, this is actually, she works with the marketing. James Taylor (17:22) Yeah. Fredrik Haren (17:31) marketing director as a sausage company and they were going to introduce a sausage with no meat in it, like a totally vegetarian sausage. And everyone there said, oh, come on, can't, like we've been doing meat sausages for a hundred years. It's no way that you can make a sausage that tastes good, that doesn't have meat in it. It's not possible. So, and then, but of course they did. And, but the process you call it unalienating is when someone introduced something that is so different than what we're used to, we look at it as literally an alien. It's like, ah, that it's simple, like, And then the process is how do you get people to be befriended? So think of ET. We do the analogy in the book, thinking of ET, you know, the alien. So the first thing you see is, oh, what is that scary thing? And then slowly you befriend it and after a while you're friends with it. That's a process. You can actually, if you're introducing a really novel idea, you can actually ask yourself, how do I, what is the process I need to use to unalienate people to this idea? And you can't just suddenly take an alien and just put it in front of you. You're going to scare the shit out of them. So you need to slowly do in the process of the sausages. It's ⁓ too long to share here. But basically, they did a process. How do we get people used to the idea of a sausage with no meat in it? And we can do that with any new idea. We can un-alienate people towards it. And that skill is rhetoric. You need to develop a rhetorical path to get people to accept your new idea. Apple was very good at that when they introduced new products. They get us to feel like this is totally new at the same time it's not scary. James Taylor (19:04) Yeah. And actually, you talk about sausage making, they say that there's two things you never want to see what goes into the making of. One is making sausages, the other one is making loaves. So you're dispelling that, you're actually showing how the sausages, vegan sausages perhaps, or as I'm told now, you have to say plant forward, not vegan, because some people get a bit funny about the word vegan. ⁓ So you're kind of stripping back that. And all these people you interviewed in the book, ⁓ small scale creators, Fredrik Haren (19:13) You James Taylor (19:32) Artists, in innovation and organizations, whose story shifted your thinking the most when it comes to your conception of creativity, what creativity is and how it operates? Fredrik Haren (19:45) Well, they're actually, like you said, it's 37 countries, but I've introduced thousands of people in 75 countries. You could say that these are the 37. Why 37? It's the 37 that changed the way I look at creativity. So every single one of them somehow changed the way I look at creativity. Did we talk about the Thai, the Thailand, the Sabai Sabai last time? I don't remember. Okay. So this is one of my favorites because it's so useful for us. James Taylor (20:09) No, I don't think we did. Fredrik Haren (20:14) for my own personal development as an individual. So I met this origami artist in Thailand, her name is Kai, and she does beautiful origami paper flowers. And I was interviewing her in her studio, and I asked her, so for some reason we started talking about creative block. And I said to her, what do do if you have a creative block? And she looked at me, didn't really understand the question. So like when you get stuck, what do you do? And she goes, I go to Starbucks. Okay, so what do do when you're a Starbucks seller? Are you thinking of the problem? What are you doing? And she said, I'm thinking of what coffee to drink. Oh yeah, of course. But then what do you do? Then I drink my coffee. And I realized talking to her, I realized she had no concept of creative block. Like she hasn't no understanding of creative anxiety. So she called it an idea nap, which I think is so beautiful. It's like when you're tired, you take a power nap. And when you have a creative block, you take an idea nap. You just leave the idea and go do something else enjoyable, but you don't need to have anxiety about it. She like, OK, I'm stuck. can't do anything. But she's just enjoying her coffee. And then after 30 minutes or an hour, she goes back and she just continues. So the creative process can be done without anxiety. And after meeting her, my creative process is way less anxious. And that is connected to the Thai mentality, the Thai culture. They have something, as you probably know, they have something called Sabai Sabai. And Sabai Sabai means like, don't worry, be happy. It means it's like you're ordering a beer in Thailand and it hasn't come in 20 minutes and you go, where the hell is my beer? And they go, Sabai Sabai, don't worry, the beer will come when the beer will come. So when you have that Sabai Sabai mentality and you get stuck. and it created work, go, okay, sabai, sabai, let's go to Starbucks and drink some coffee and enjoy ourselves and then go back. It's beautiful. It's simple, but it's beautiful. James Taylor (22:14) I love that idea. I love that. I love that idea. ⁓ An idea nap as well. And I guess the other thing, just thinking about that is we had a guest on the show a few weeks ago called Gibelli, Professor Gibelli, and his book is called The Brain at Rest, where he kind of talks about the neuroscience, so he talks about the neuroscience of... ⁓ Fredrik Haren (22:19) Yes. James Taylor (22:35) what happens to our creativity and other functions when we allow our brain to rest. And there's some fascinating stats he was sharing about when we're out in nature. what they're only just now getting to understand, they knew there was something about the color green that has an effect upon our creativity, our ability to relax. What they didn't know was the chemicals that the trees and the plants send off that you as a human receives that kind of relaxes you and it's kind of, it's part of what it does and he said, know, people that do this and in this kind of way, their creativity increases by this amount. Fredrik Haren (22:58) Okay. James Taylor (23:10) because of that, it's like the rest part, the idea naps, the rest part as well, and also the kind of changing of the physical environment that they're operating in as well. seems to be like how these things can link together in some way. Fredrik Haren (23:19) Yes. Yes, that's great. That's why my office is a 360 geometric dome. So I'm always in nature. James Taylor (23:28) You're in a dome. So we should explain to people that don't know you, I was sharing with an audience the other day. about you and I was saying, I was interested, this is my friend Fredrik Haren, he's a wonderful keynote speaker, author, storyteller and he's a collector but not of watches or cars but of islands and so I share that you have Ideas Island which I think is wonderful and people just love this idea as well, so share with us in terms of your own creative process because you've traveled but... There's something about a sense of rootedness, I think as well, that gives some stability in the creative process, at certain times in the creative process. Where you are today, is your home, where you are most of the time, what does that space, that environment do for your own creative process? Fredrik Haren (24:20) Yes, I think it's very, it is crucial. It's essential for people to figure out their own creative process. So you and my creative process, it took me a while to figure out because I'm an introvert, but I like to meet people. So my creative process is that half of the year I travel around the world and I want to go to 50 to 50 to 30 countries per year and meet hundreds of people every year and interview them. And then the other half of the year I sit on, I live on a private island. So this is my island. And there's no neighbors because I'm an introvert and I don't like people intruding on me when I need to be alone. But so it's selective, selective inclusion. is seclusion? What is the word in English? Seclusion. it's selective seclusion. Yeah, selective seclusion is what I practice. So when I sit on my island, I am mentally disconnected from the rest of the world. It's just me on my island and I'm totally in nature. James Taylor (25:03) seclusion. Yes, yes, seclusion, selective seclusion. Fredrik Haren (25:17) trees and water is very important for creativity. So I do that. And so I'm either doing that. And that's where I do my writing and my thinking and also my downtown, my relaxing. then, or I am on a plane somewhere and the more exotic the better. And I need both. If I just live on the island, I would not be as creative. If I travel all the time, I would not be. And a lot of people might say, that sounds very stressful or that sounds very lonely. And it's fine. But for me, this is the perfect creative process. James Taylor (25:47) Now, when you're traveling a lot, you're seeing different cultures and different things. And one of the things that you obviously benefit from is globalization, traveling around the world, being able to do what you do. But it sometimes feels like globalization can flatten novelty. it feels like certain grays are in just now, suddenly every coffee shop you go into kind of feels the same ⁓ now, regardless of where you are. Did you ever feel like some of these creative traditions that you were meeting, or these differences were getting flattened out by a more global way of looking at how things are designed and how things should function? Fredrik Haren (26:10) Hmm. Yeah, OK, that's a good question. I don't like the word global because it has been globalist kind of means someone who is not an interesting in supporting their own culture or something. I like it. So, you know, they're saying think global act local. I yes, I like this. I like the think human act humane. That's my that's my slogan. And what I mean by that is there is so many different ways to do things in the world. James Taylor (26:45) HSBC, yeah. Tightline. Fredrik Haren (26:58) And a lot of the things that are done elsewhere are done better than what we are doing. And if it's better done than what we are doing, we should incorporate it. As you know, I married a woman from the Philippines, right? So Swedish way of raising children is very different from Filipino way of raising children. And suddenly now we will have to have a discussion. Are we going to use the Swedish approach or the Filipino approach when it comes to, for example, hitting our children? In Sweden, we don't hit in the Philippines, they hit. So which one should we do? And I was like, okay, well, this clearly not hitting is better. That's what I think. But I was able to convince my wife or not even, she was, okay, I mean, she was already on board on that. But in the Philippines, they have more respect for the elders. And in Sweden, we don't have respect for the elders. So now we are teaching the Filipino way to our children. So you need to show respect for the elders. So we're taking the best of each culture and we're creating something better. From that perspective, I don't see a negative aspect of it. If you look at it, humanity is getting better. by incorporating the best ideas that are out there. And that is kind of the purpose of this book is to, if you are interested in creativity, you should look at how everyone innovates around the world. And now you have more tools that you can use. The fact that everything becomes the same, I think is a negative side effect of the fact that we're not incorporating things properly. I don't think every cafe looking like Starbucks is, I don't think Starbucks has the best cafe. So. When I lived in China, forgot everything, almost not everything, but they forgot a lot of things they were doing in China. They took everything from the West. But now lately they said, you know what, let's look at if what they are doing is better, we should take it. If what we were doing were better, we're going to go back to how we did it. So they went a little bit overboard. They were so excited about learning from the West. They took everything. James Taylor (28:48) I think you see that in quite a lot of cultures more recently as well where maybe the West or certain countries in the West were held up to be the gold standard. and other countries are kind of now figuring out actually that is not appropriate for what we're about, know, our way of doing things, there's great things we want to learn from these different places. And I always, one of my things, I guess this is maybe a criticism someone's going to maybe level at you, does by talking about creativity and all this thing, does it not create a separateness, a kind of... ⁓ what would you call it, ⁓ a jingoist kind of thing of saying well you know we do this type of thing the best and other people, what would your what would your ⁓ defense be for someone that says like that really creativity is just as purely as a human thing and actually the cultural things ⁓ shouldn't be as relevant. Fredrik Haren (29:46) No, okay, so let's do the analogy of food because food is a way of expressing creativity, right? If you're really interested in food, you're not gonna forget about, if I'm a Swedish chef, I'm not gonna forget about Swedish cooking and learn only about foreign cooking, but I'm gonna be super interested to learn about how do they cook in Japan? How do they cook in Thailand? What can I learn from the French? And now you take the best of that and you combine it with the best of Swedish cooking and now you are enjoying cooking more. It's not forget about Swedish food, it's about let's learn about human cooking. It elevates us all and we can do that on any creative aspect. So I don't think that is a problem. James Taylor (30:25) Yeah, and so I wish my hope, my hope just now is that we do have some owners of airports and I've spoken to some, you've probably done it as well because I often think, ⁓ you your book is sharing lots of examples of creativity and like innovation in different parts of the world. and I think you agree, it's like picking the best from some of these places and learning from all these places and thinking about how it incorporates, because sometimes it's not gonna come in the pure form from that other place. And it feels like a lot of time you go to airports, they've taken the worst from all this, which I guess is one way of doing things. Fredrik Haren (30:58) The words. But you know as well as I do that the best airport in the world is in Singapore. And I worked with Singapore, Changi Airport, and I used it a lot. And they go around the world and look at all the other... When they built Changi, they went to look at the best airports at the time. They went to Charles de Gaulle, went to JFK, they went to Heathrow, and they took the best of each. And they took it and they built Changi Airport, which is now the best airport in the world, while Heathrow, Charles de Gaulle, and JFK sucks at airports because they haven't done the same thing. So it's about picking up the best thing. James Taylor (31:09) Yeah. Fredrik Haren (31:32) And more importantly, it's also to understanding that when you do that, it's not, our minds are not limited. So for example, in America, we have this thing called, like what the quote from Mark Zuckerberg, you have to go fast and break things, right? It's about dramatic innovation and we need to ruin things and break things and go fast and shoot for the stars and all of that. And that's the American way of approaching creativity. The Japanese way is kaizen. It's like small improvements all the time. Now, I'm not saying we should pick between the two. I think we should learn both ways. And now we have two tools in our toolbox that we can now choose. Should we do the American way or should we do the Japanese way? So the more we learn about how people approach things, the more we have ways of choosing what is best right now. Which tool should we use today? There's even an example in the book from Afghanistan. What can we learn about creativity from Afghanistan, which is the utterly opposite of the American way? James Taylor (32:20) Yeah, I think... Sorry, please. Fredrik Haren (32:33) It's a painter who paints the old traditional Afghan way, when Afghan was a cultural superpower, not anymore, but then hundreds of years ago. And she would literally cut down a tree to make her own paper. Then she will grind the gemstones to make her own paint. Then will she cut the hair of the back of the cat to make her own brush. It takes her months to create the material needed to do a painting, which means for months, she can't paint what she wants to paint, but she can think about it. And she says, I'm thinking about it, and she called it profound patience. It's this idea of not, she goes, you go to Amazon, you order it the next day, you have the stuff you start painting. Like where's your process? She thinks about it. She said, whenever she starts to paint, what she paint is never what she thought she was gonna paint, because the idea has changed in her head while she's doing the material. That doesn't mean Mark Zuckerberg is wrong. It just means sometimes we can go, go fast and break things, sometimes we can use the profound patience approach. And now we have another tool to use in our toolbox. James Taylor (33:37) I think, and sometimes obviously these things, switch, they switch modes. ⁓ I think with obviously a lot of AI stuff, is stuff I speak about a lot at the moment, ⁓ things are moving very, very fast. And so many countries are purposely saying, we don't want to put any, as much regulation on these tools. We just, need to move fast, because if we don't do it, then this other country over there is going to do it faster than us. And I think my... can see there's some sense in some of that, where I think will probably happen, and I hate to say this, and I'm, you and I, are kind of, in America we call this motivational speakers, which is always interesting, but, so this is maybe not so motivating, but it's interesting, is I think probably what's going to have to happen is there will be something that will happen very bad, because of AI, and I think where they'll have gone wrong is the thinking of building AI like a the creativity of doing AI, like a software engineer does it, as opposed to a mechanical engineer. So a mechanical engineer builds first for safety. So if that thing fails, there is always something that sits underneath that stops that thing from failing. And I think about where I'm speaking from today, there's a bridge there called the Dunn, the bridge that goes over Dundee called the Tay Rail Bridge. And it was one of the, it was that great push forward, lots of bridge building that happened in the UK. And then one night, the bridge collapsed and it killed lots of people in that bridge. And then subsequent after that, they built a bridge which is one in Edinburgh, which takes you from something you can, if you ever go to Edinburgh, there's a famous red, ⁓ fourth road bridge there, which looks incredibly sturdy. It's got every single girder, it's like red, this like ridiculously over engineered. And the reason it's over engineered, over engineered to look like that, is to give people the confidence that the bridge isn't gonna fall. It didn't need that much structure, but it just gives people the confidence, kind going back to the lift analogy we kind of spoke about as well. And I thought, well, that's great, but that bridge of that quality that's still around today would never have existed probably if you didn't have these other early versions of the bridges, some of which fold and crashed. So I feel like we're kind of in the AI kind of world, we're in that little bit, there's that kind of feel fast, kind of creativity side of things going, but at some point it's gonna have to switch to using our creativity for safety and security. And we're not quite at that point. The economic forces aren't quite there at this point. Fredrik Haren (36:12) Yeah, and the speed one will not slow down. mean, speed of innovation is going to continue to increase. It's a simple math. More people with more education and more access to information and better tools leads to faster innovation. So the speed won't change. It will just continue to increase. James Taylor (36:33) So if the listeners are listening to this just now, you travel all the time. If someone wants to... start one, let's say a creative travel experiment, something to kind of the going journey somewhere, it doesn't even have to be abroad, it could be in their own country, and you kind of want to shift their thinking and use that time, that travel time, ⁓ either the traveling there or the coming home or the when they arrive at their destination to kind of knock their thinking out a little bit and think a little bit more creatively, what advice would you give them? Fredrik Haren (37:04) I was recently in Lithuania and I interviewed a tourist guy who does tours of Eastern Europe, like communist from Soviet Union times, takes them to bomb shelters and things like this. And he said, because he takes people, local people, and he shows them their city again through new eyes by showing them things they didn't know about their city. And I said, how do you know? How do you find out these things? And he says, I go out in the streets and I look for a really old person and I start by giving them a compliment. say, I really liked your dress. And then after, because they are not so used to hearing compliments. And then they say, and then they start talking to me and then I say, Hey, tell me something about this neighborhood. And then they will say these things that they give you all this secret because they've been living there their whole life. And I'm, I'm sharing this with you because we don't have to travel to the other side of the world to learn something new. can learn something new about the place we live by just Asking a person we normally wouldn't ask, right? Go up and talk to a stranger or ⁓ go in a different, take a different, when I lived in Singapore, a good friend of mine, when he moved there, he took a bus and he took it for 12 stops and then he got off and then he looked around and then he jumped on the next bus that came, took it for another 12 stops and got off with no plan whatsoever. Just forcibly, like forced wandering to get to see parts of Singapore that he had never seen before. So it is to awaken, if you think about it, it's a waking the explorer mentality to venture into unknown territory in order to learn more about it because when we explore is when we discover. James Taylor (38:31) I think... I love that. And that's why I'm so thankful that there are storytellers and speakers like yourself that because you travel around, you speak to these very influential groups, these different companies, governments around the world. And because you ask when you're traveling to all these different countries, 75, hopefully I've got that number right, when you travel to these 75 countries, you're not just telling your own stories to these audiences, but you're actually telling... Fredrik Haren (39:02) Hmm. ⁓ James Taylor (39:10) You're asking people while you're in those places their stories. And then you are essentially acting as a voice for them as well and sharing their stories with these global audiences. Sometimes I know some of the people you mentioned, the artists in Afghanistan, sometimes these people don't have a voice in that same way. So you are almost acting as that voice for them. Fredrik Haren (39:30) Yes, because I want to understand, I wrote in my diary, I want to understand creativity through humanity, but I also want to understand humanity through creativity. And that's why I will interview a tourist guide or a taxi driver or a president or a head of innovation. I want to learn from all kinds of people. But the overall overreaching message of the book, but also in my speeches, is to get people to broaden their perspective of what the world is, the ideas that are already out there. and also the inspiration that that can trigger to get people to have more ideas themselves. Because these are the two big potentials. One is just to take the good ideas that are already out there and just copy them. And the other one is to be inspired by what people are doing. If I understand, there's one I interviewed the hotel manager, you might know him, Afif. Have you met Afif? Exactly, we're friends on Facebook, yes. So I interviewed him about, and he talked about, I think the English word is respiration. So inspiration. James Taylor (40:16) Yes, from Maldives. Yeah, from Lux Resorts. Fredrik Haren (40:29) You know everyone your creativity is triggered by inspiration. We see something cool and we're like, this is nice But inspiration doesn't actually create creativity Respiration does so respiration is the act of when you inspire means to breathe in that's the literal meaning to breathe in this to inspire perspire is to breathe out so inspiration is breathing like a It's oxygen for the creative mind right new ideas come in but perspiration is the act of taking that and turning it into something useful in your body. So it's not just enough to be inspired. You need to do something with, like the key question is what do you do with the inspiration? Especially if you're trying to inspire others, are you giving that inspiration in a way that they can actually do something useful with? It's a skill to inspire people in a way that makes it useful for the other person. James Taylor (41:25) reminds me a little bit that the Edison quote was it's success is one percent inspiration, 99 percent perspiration, ⁓ maybe it needs to be respiration now, I'm not sure. We're going to have a link to your book, to this new book that's coming out, if you were to recommend another book that maybe you've been reading just now, you've been recommending more often, I mean know you're always reading, you're always thinking different things, what would that book be? What book should people be checking out just now? Fredrik Haren (41:51) Well, I don't know, because we're just talking about breathing. I'm reading a book called Breed. It's a whole book. I love books like this where they just take a concept that, you know, and then just go all in on it. It's all because I have understood that I'm not doing breathing correctly. So I need to get into that. So, you know, I bought an Apple watch to measure my breathing and all of that. And so I started reading that. So it's one of the... I like it because it's the last book I'm reading. And it's also about this idea of going deep, down the rabbit hole, the curiosity aspect, what can I possibly learn about breathing? So I'm going to say that one. I think it's called just called, breathe. James Taylor (42:33) Breathing. I I'm gonna recognize that to my wife Alison because I know that she thinks as a singer, she thinks a lot about breathing and she's always pulling me up and getting my diaphragmic breath working properly, my articulators and everything as well. Fredrik, it's always a pleasure speaking to you having you on the show as well. Your new book, The World of Creativity, A Journey Across 37 Countries to Discover the Secrets of Creative Minds is gonna be out and we're gonna put a link to that. If it's not out when this episode comes out, we'll put a link so you can pre-order your copy of the book. Fredrik Haren (43:02) the pre-order is out already. James Taylor (43:05) Great, so we're gonna have a link so people at least get it pre-ordered so it's gonna get to you the moment it hits the shelves as well. And Fredrik if people want to connect more with you, learn more about your other writing, your speaking, where's the best place for them to go and do that? Fredrik Haren (43:19) I guess just Google the Creativity Explorer, hopefully that will come up. James Taylor (43:23) Well, Fredrik Haren thank you so much for being a guest on the SuperCreativity Podcast Fredrik Haren (43:30) Thank you so much. The post The World of Creativity: Lessons from 75 Countries with Fredrik Haren #363 appeared first on James Taylor.

The Creative Brain: Busting Myths About Creativity with Dr. Anna Abraham #361 In this episode of the SuperCreativity Podcast, James Taylor interviews Dr. Anna Abraham, neuroscientist, educator, and author of The Creative Brain: Myths and Truths. As the E. Paul Torrance Professor at the University of Georgia and director of the Creativity and Imagination Lab, Dr. Abraham has spent decades exploring the science behind creativity and imagination. Together, they dive deep into some of the most persistent myths about creativity—from the supposed link between creativity and mental illness to the popular idea that creativity is only a “right brain” activity. Along the way, Dr. Abraham explains how creativity actually works in the brain, what makes myths so sticky, and why everyday creativity is just as important as exceptional genius. If you’ve ever doubted your creative potential because of stereotypes or wanted to understand what science really says about imagination, this conversation will change how you think about creativity forever. Notable Quotes “Every myth has a kernel of truth—it’s the way the story gets told that flattens it into something misleading.” – Dr. Anna Abraham “Creativity is less like magic and more like fitness—it improves with practice.” – Dr. Anna Abraham “We like outlandish explanations for creativity more than the truth, because they make a better story.” – Dr. Anna Abraham “The unglamorous part of creativity is the real truth: it’s a craft, and you have to keep working at it.” – Dr. Anna Abraham Resources and Links Book: The Creative Brain: Myths and Truths Website: anna-abraham.com Recommended Reads: The Creative Act by Rick Rubin The Body by Bill Bryson Apple Podcast Spotify Podcast Takeaways Creativity & mental illness — There are links, but they are complex, nuanced, and shaped by vulnerability and environment, not destiny. Right brain vs. left brain — Both hemispheres play a role; the metaphor is useful, but the science is more complicated. Everyday creativity matters — Creativity isn’t just about lone geniuses; it’s about building your own creative “fitness.” Precarity fuels vulnerability — From writers working alone to creative industries hit hardest by crises, uncertainty impacts mental health. Creativity is a skill — Like fitness, it can be measured, trained, and improved with the right practices and tools. In his upcoming book, James Taylor delves into the transformative concept of SuperCreativity™—the art of amplifying your creative potential through collaboration with both humans and machines. Drawing from his experiences speaking in over 30 countries, James combines compelling stories, case studies, and practical strategies to help readers unlock innovation and harness the power of AI-driven tools. This book is a must-read for anyone looking to elevate their creativity and thrive in the modern age of human-machine collaboration. James Taylor is a highly sought-after keynote speaker, often booked months or even years in advance due to his exceptional expertise. Given his limited availability, it’s crucial to contact him early if you’re interested in securing a date or learning how he can enhance your event. Reach out to James Taylor now for an opportunity to bring his unique insights to your conference or team. Enquire Now The Creativity Blueprint Free 3-Part Video Training Series On How To Unlock Your Creative Potential, Break Down Creative Blocks, and Unleash Your Creative GeniusFREE training video shows you how to unlock your creative potential in 5 simple steps. The world’s top creative individuals and organizations use these exact strategies. The 7-Figure Speaker Blueprint FREE training video shows you the ten ways to make $1,000,000 from your speaking. The world’s top professional speakers use these exact strategies.In this first FREE video series, award-winning keynote speaker James Taylor reveals how to become a 7-figure speaker. CHAPTERS 00:00 – Introduction to Dr. Anna Abraham and The Creative Brain 01:17 – Myth #1: Creativity and mental illness 06:32 – Why myths about creativity persist in culture 11:46 – Myth #2: The right brain is the seat of creativity 16:35 – The metaphorical power (and limits) of right vs. left brain 18:17 – Creativity and dementia: de novo creativity explained 21:56 – Improvisation, jazz, comedy, and breaking the path of least resistance 25:57 – Training yourself to disrupt automatic thinking patterns 29:02 – Defining creativity for business audiences: creativity vs. innovation 30:12 – The Torrance Test and measuring creativity in children and adults 34:55 – Myth of the lone creative genius: why context matters 39:42 – The most pervasive myths about creativity today 42:50 – Practice makes the performance look “natural” 44:25 – Book recommendations: Rick Rubin’s The Creative Act and Bill Bryson’s The Body 47:51 – Where to learn more about Dr. Abraham’s work TRANSCRIPT James Taylor (00:09) Today's guest is Dr. Anna Abraham, a neuroscientist, educator, myth buster, and the E. Paul Torrance Professor at University of Georgia. She leads the Creativity and Imagination Lab and directs the Torrance Center for Creativity and Talent Development. Anna's work sits at the intersection of brain science and human imagination. She studies mental time travel, the boundary between fact and fiction, self-referencing thought and how creativity works in our minds. Her latest book, The Creative Brain, Myths and Truths, pulls back the curtain on beliefs we hold about creativity. Ones like the right brain myth, the tortured artist stereotype, or that psychedelics are a shortcut and shows the truths underneath. If you've ever doubted your creative potential because you believed a myth or wondered how science can illuminate what actually helps creativity, then this episode is for you. Anna, welcome to the SuperCreativity Podcast. Anna Abraham (01:08) Thank you for having me. I'm delighted to be here. James Taylor (01:10) So Anna, what was your earliest encounter with a myth about creativity? Anna Abraham (01:17) That's a good one. ⁓ Probably my own. I've ⁓ always been fascinated by creativity, but the first time I got the chance to study it was during my PhD. the main impetus of my study was to try and figure out the link between creativity and mental illness. was my starting point. ⁓ And it's one of the, I'd call them myth truths is the way I kind of handle them in the book. ⁓ of what is really the link between creativity and mental illness. And it's probably the oldest one of all of them, because it's existed since sort of the ancient Greeks thought about it. So that's probably the oldest that I have encountered and really been thinking about for decades now. James Taylor (02:01) And I wonder with a myth like that, obviously we have these different myths that have in society and the media, it seems to be one that the media often latch onto, you know, the young rock star that dies of an overdose, for example. So let's do some myth bustings in this episode. What is that? Is there a link, first of all? And if so, what is that link between this? Anna Abraham (02:29) So the interesting thing about the myth truth of creativity and mental illness is that there is a link, but it's not really clear what the directionality is, how strong it is. When we think about creativity and madness or mental illness, saying it that broadly is obviously a myth. But when we look closer, ⁓ there are certain types of disorders that are more associated with it. And there are lots of ideas about why that is. Some are sort of saying, well, when you're trying to be creative, exploring the unknown, you're taking a lot of risks, you're putting yourself, it's quite vulnerable to try and come up with new ideas that may or not, may not be accepted by the larger collective. So it's a, you're in the business of risk taking and potentially getting things wrong, or even if you're getting things right, it may not be actually recognized by others. So you're in a vulnerable position very often, depending on the kind of creative activity it is, it can be a kind of isolating experience. So if you think about writers, they tend to be more. at risk for a lot of mental disorders. They're the most at risk group. And if you sort of just think about what does it take to write a book, book of fiction, for instance, it takes, it's months and months and months or years sometimes of, you know, getting, being alone with your thoughts, trying to get it out there. And really the most, I think the tricky part is you can't force yourself. to come up with those lines. have to kind of come out of you. So a lot of it is pretty unpredictable. ⁓ So that's, you're dealing with a lot of precarity ⁓ at all levels from the creation side on one hand, and then the other side, which you have almost no control, which is, will people accept it? Will people like it? Will it bring me my bread and butter? Will I achieve renown through it? And so on. So that's the difficulty with the creative experience. A. you're putting yourself out there, you're trying to do something that's unusual, stand out in some way. You can't count on it coming in a predictable way, so there's precarity at that level, precarity at level of what you're creating, and then precarity at the level of it being accepted. ⁓ So precarity across these levels is associated with greater vulnerability. You you're much more likely to be more anxious then, ⁓ and so on. And things don't quite work out. There's only so much negative feedback you can get. without it really affecting you. ⁓ And the final thing I would say is also that creative professions as such are also associated from an economic, socioeconomic standpoint, a lot of precarity. It's the kind of position that's not seen as often associated with full-time employment. ⁓ We saw it at the time of the COVID pandemic. The first jobs to get hit was the food industry and the creative industry, right? Because everything just shut down. So there's also sort of socioeconomic precarity there. All of these things are vulnerability factors when it comes to mental illnesses. So that's what I mean by we don't know whether it is the process of pushing yourself out there, creating something that is a vulnerable space to be in. ⁓ Is it also just the situation of being a creative person in the world as it is set up now, where there's a lot of unsteadiness in your profession? What is it that leads to it? It might be a combination of both, of course. But that's, so we know that's related to certain forms of mental illness, but we don't know what's really, which way it goes. Or perhaps it's just way more complicated than we think it is. But so to just say that there's a link is somehow not satisfying because it seems to say like, if you do it, you're going to be more mentally ill or the other way around. That's not true at all. There's lots of people who have all sorts of ⁓ problems in terms of the mental health and wellbeing that don't go on to do anything creative. And there are lots of people on the other side who are pretty stable. So it's not an all or none phenomenon. And the more interesting story for me is to try to think about what is it about the act of creating, or what is it about the environment you're creating, and that pushes our vulnerabilities in a specific way. James Taylor (06:32) Sometimes I remember when I was first getting interested in this and you're reading like the Cambridge Handbook of Creativity and you're reading all these other books and all these wonderful books about creativity and it almost felt like there was two camps. There was the ⁓ kind of Elizabeth Gilbert, Julia Cameron kind of woo woo in a nicer sense. I can say that as someone who's lived in California but I love part of that. But it was a very... ⁓ Anna Abraham (06:51) you James Taylor (06:57) emotional kind of almost spirit type of energy way of thinking about things. And then there was the neuroscience folks and the kind of brain science that kind of were trying to bring it down to almost the singular. So you mentioned this one myth and in the book, The Creative Brain, you kind of lay out these seven in total, these myths as well. What made you want to write this particular book? Because you have so much experience in this area. You could have written probably about 20 different books on creativity. Why was this the book that you felt compelled to write? Anna Abraham (07:30) Well, the 19 are going to come as well. But this is the first one to come out. ⁓ Well, first of all, when one gets to a certain level of being a creative neuroscientist, and I don't know if this is true of all of us in the field, but certainly for me, when I started to do a lot more public engagement events, you know, speaking to the general public, I started to notice when you get away from your community and you're speaking to people who don't have a great curiosity about creativity, which I I've never met anyone who's not. ⁓ And have a lot of notions about what it is. And some things started to consistently come out as things that people held to be true, such as the creativity mental illness link, the link between the right brain and creativity, psychedelics and creativity. And there was something else that fascinated me, not just the questions, but that even if you told people, well, it's not that simple. Well, it's not that, well, it's a little more complicated. It didn't seem to satisfy. a person's need to know what that was. And I thought, and that actually made me even more interested. Okay, there's a they've heard. I'm sure they've had a lot of myth busting from a lot of people. I'm not the first person to do myth busting when it comes to creativity, but it doesn't, it doesn't, it just falls flat. doesn't seem to, it doesn't even take hold. And I was very interested in why that was. So the book, I think was trying to make a case for, let's examine. I picked seven myths about the creative brain, myth truths I was always referring to it as, about the creative brain to think we have these specific notions, let's see how they started, let's do an archival troll, so to speak, when did they start, what do we know about it, and what is the best way to understand it? To sort of not see it as a black and white issue, it's right or wrong, it's myth or truth, but to essentially come to the conclusions I did in every single one of them, which is that Every myth has a kernel of truth in it. And it's about how the story gets told that it becomes flattened and like one dimensional in the telling of the tale. But if you actually explore the stories, it's really interesting what you learn about creativity and how people came to these assumptions about why this works in this particular context, why do psychedelics work sometimes, but not other times. ⁓ The story, the, you know, our story making brain is such that we highlight the things that work, not the things that don't work. Things that don't work are kind of boring, right? So there's something about our need for storytelling that it's not enough for us to tell people, for people to be satisfied. I said, well, that's not the case, but we don't really know. Nobody wants to don't know. They'd rather go with this is close enough, or it feels good enough, because I know when one of the big questions I always get is children are so creative, grownups grow out of it. And I'm thinking, why do you think that way? And they're like, well, let's say all eight year olds draw, almost no 28 year olds draw, right? So they're coming from a place of like sort of lived experience. They don't see it around them. They see a lot of children doing a lot of creative fun things. They don't see adults do it. So it's very difficult to misplace that notion and say that's not actually true that adults in general are not creative because it doesn't, and if I don't have a better story to offer in place. they're going to cling to the thing that's based on what they think to be true or what they know from their own experience or what someone else influential is told, you know, influential, I don't know, critic or whatever's told them. So that's the interesting thing about why we, it's almost a story, it's almost a book almost about why we like these stories ⁓ because a lot of these explanations are pretty magical and there's something about creativity that is so impressive, of course. ⁓ So fills us with awe and wonder that we also want explanations that kind of feed, you know, our representative are worthy of this thing that you're trying to explain. So we like outlandish explanations more than sort of boring stuff. So that's what the book explores, a little bit about what the myths are, why we think this way, and to get a sense of what the human brain does in terms of why it makes us want good, stories over truth. We like the poetic truth more than the real truth, so to speak. James Taylor (11:46) So one of those ones that we often hear people come up to you, if I'm on a plane and they say, what do you do? I said, I speak about creativity, innovation, AI. And they say, yeah, I'm really left brain or I'm really, I think I'm really more right brain. So this is one of the myths that you kind of myth truths that you kind of talk about in the book. So tell us this whole right brain thing when it comes to creativity, is there a kernel of truth in that? Anna Abraham (12:11) Yeah. ⁓ There certainly is. ⁓ It's a very old story. It's one of the myth truths that was birthed at the time when ⁓ a lot of exciting work was happening in the neurosciences that were focused on hemispheric lateralization. And it was very clear that from patients with certain types of atypicalities who had to have certain types of surgery that severed communication between their left hemisphere and the right hemisphere to sort of solve the problem or at least make an intractable epilepsy and think of the past. You know, there were these sorts of surgeries that needed to be done. It's really strange that people were almost like completely themselves, even though this major surgery had happened where large sections of their white matter tracks that allow for the left and right hemisphere to communicate with each other in a way that's really fast and efficient. There are other tracks through which they can do that, but it's a little slower. people tend to be fine. And then when they did these sort of clever experiments, it became really clear that the left hemisphere was so important for all sorts of functions, right? So the first area, the first, let's say the throne of glory went to the left hemisphere and it came to things like intentional actions, language, and so on, which, and because we're human beings and we use language a lot, we think of it as sort of defining our species in very specific ways. And so, a really weird thing happened in that the right brain began to be attributed everything that was not, you know, goal-directed, everything that was more passion, thoughtlessness, everything else, almost as a sort of, there must be an area that does this, because there are people who are not as rational, and so on. So the right brain decided to get to be seen as like, it doesn't seem to be that important for the things that really matter, know, logic, communication, and analytical ability. ⁓ And then came along ⁓ the idea that it was the right brain had something of worth came from the original team, the Roger Sperry team who found out about hemispheric lateralization differences. And I think it was because one member of that team, so it came from the group that was very respected as opposed to some random person, know, saying, well, when it comes to creative acts, and again, he didn't really have the data for it. He was very, very ⁓ articulate person. He said, that, why am I blanking on his name? I am blanking on his name right now. But he said, and which is unforgivable, I'm sorry for that, but he, ⁓ I don't know why I'm blanking. James Taylor (14:51) Is that the- which is- maybe that's the part with the right part is memory. Maybe that's what it is. That's why we're going that way. Short term memory. Anna Abraham (14:57) ⁓ It's deteriorating in real time. ⁓ Well, he said was that the right and the left are both important. And the right is really important for certain aspects of the creative process, such as when you work away from the problem, the incubation stage and so on. He never said that the left is not important. All he said was that the right brain being delegated as this nothing-y hemisphere is incorrect. And it plays a big role in creative ideation. And so of course he's not wrong because if you do fMRI studies for instance, and so on, you usually find both hemispheres involved in some way, you know. Depending on the type of task, you might see more left or right depending on if it's verbal or if it's ⁓ a figural task and so on. ⁓ But that sort of revolutionized a lot. ⁓ That understanding that the right brain is really important potentially for creative functions. Again, he didn't really have a lot of data to show this. ⁓ But it didn't really matter. ⁓ That was enough. And over time it went from, in no time it went from the right brain is important to the right brain is the seat. But none of the people who were talking about the importance of the right brain ever said that the left brain has no role. Just over time that that became the sort of, because it was neglected, let's give it a spotlight. The good thing about having that happen, even if it's not particularly correct, is that it led to real changes in the way curriculums were designed, for instance, because people thought, well, let's cater to both sides of your mind. A more holistic. Yeah, let's not just make everything abstract about something written on a board. Let's think of it as visual and auditory. And let's try and work with more multimodally in the classroom to... ⁓ James Taylor (16:35) Holistic be a more holistic education education system Anna Abraham (16:52) reach out to students, particularly those with issues, right? Have issues concentrating, have issues ⁓ perhaps even with learning and so on. And so over time, the whole right brain, left brain thing, I think at this point, ⁓ it doesn't even matter if it's right or wrong. It serves a purpose as a metaphor, you know? So if you and I were to want to do a collaboration together and we spoke to some company. It wouldn't matter to the company what's right or wrong. If I say, we want to engage in more right brain thought, they immediately get it. It's because this metaphor, it's just now the way we think about things. So it has become powerful because it's important, but not because it has any particular truth value in its extreme form, ⁓ but because it essentially caused a revolution in the way we think about human thought. And so it's become that placard for a more imaginative style of thinking means engaging the right brain in some way as opposed to this left brain, logical brain in some James Taylor (17:56) there is also even within that let's say there's this kind of plasticity within that I know I remember reading years ago some patients with forms of dementia or Alzheimer's as they get further into their their disease as attacks different parts of the brain suddenly they become a little bit more creative. They start to paint and it kind of, you know, they're a little bit to the point where they maybe start to take off all their clothes, which can go a little bit maybe too far. so what's going on that that can be attacking, killing the right brain, you know, that just must be going for different, different things in the brain. Anna Abraham (18:17) Yes. Yeah, first of all, it's Joseph Bogan is the name of the man who started this all. Thank you, Joseph Bogan. So in the case of neurodegenerative disorders and many others, it's a, explore that in another chapter actually, because it's more than just the right brain and left brain thing. You see this interesting phenomenon ⁓ in certain types of dementia like frontotemporal dementia, where it was, think, first properly studied. James Taylor (18:37) Got there, we got there, we got there. We'll put a link to Joseph as well. work. Anna Abraham (19:03) ⁓ in the mid 90s it started, where they noticed that ⁓ not all patients with frontotemporal dementia, which is essentially characterized by the atrophy of the most anterior portions of the frontal lobe and the temporal lobe. So the frontal pole and the temporal pole gradually started to deteriorate and depending on which area is more affected, there are different types of ⁓ subtypes of frontotemporal dementia or FDD. In a subset of these patients, they noticed something really strange. ⁓ In a subset of them, even though they had no prior artistic training or actually any particular interest in the arts, a sub, this small subset, but sizable, you keep seeing this again and again and again, they develop an incredible interest in the arts and start to engage and practice in the arts. It's primarily visual art. But there have been some cases of musical as well and just a few of literary arts, but it's primarily in the visual domain. ⁓ So it becomes like, ⁓ it's not just a passing interest, it becomes almost a compulsive interest in wanting to engage more and more in it. And it becomes everything that they do. So a lot of these patients, you know, perhaps they can't go back to what they were doing before, ⁓ but start to spend a lot of time painting, ⁓ sketching, doing things like that. James Taylor (20:25) Is that also because maybe other parts language, other parts have been closed down? So they're looking for, almost like the brain's trying to rewire, trying to find an outlet for that, that's already within that person. Anna Abraham (20:36) Yeah, that's great observation. That's exactly what Dalia Zadel from UCLA, who studies this phenomenon of de novo creativity, would say it is, is that as human beings, really have a sort of powerful drive to express yourself and to communicate. And so when your most obvious form of communication, which is to speak or write, shuts down, that needs to... to express, to communicate, to be yourself, in some way is still there, that drive is still there. And so it becomes, let's say, operationalized through these other mediums that you weren't necessarily particularly exposed to. But after some point, that becomes your only way, because very often in these types of situations, slowly the ability to understand, produce language just slowly diminishes over time. And this continues all the way till the end. ⁓ James Taylor (21:19) course. So the thing that inhibits that, I'm also, wondering, so why anyone, you don't have to get dementia or forms of Alzheimer's to kind of go there. I'm wondering, like, when I, my father's a jazz musician, jazz guitarist, and I noticed something with great jazz musicians and comedians, they are almost able to switch something off in their brain that you and I probably have all the time, which says, don't do that. don't say that, it's almost like, it's like a train where suddenly all the paths are open and they can just go for good or for bad, because sometimes it can take them down tracks that they can't figure out how to get out of, but is that, is also what's kind of going on there and this creativity in general, is that something that we over time we can learn to just kind of switch off, to switch on, or is it something that's just we, what's kind of going on? Is it a chemical thing, what's happening? Anna Abraham (21:56) Mm. It's a good question. I think it's not studied in the lab and so on as much because it's impossible to. It's so in the moment, it's so unpredictable. Things that are unpredictable are very hard to study in neuroscientific labs. ⁓ as you've just mentioned, if you have any contact with people who are in the business of producing creative acts and so on, ⁓ that's part of who they are. ⁓ They have learned with time. James Taylor (22:32) in the moment. Anna Abraham (22:54) For one thing, what's really common to all creative people that I've met and I've read about and we live in an age where you can read so many interviews of all these incredible achievers. ⁓ They all differ in terms of their particular practices, but what they do have in common is that they're all incredibly reflective and curious about their own minds and how they operate. So they have what they've, you what you see is this metacognitive ability is what they have in common. They're really curious about how they do it. There these great interviews with Pat Metheny, who's improvising all, tries to improvise on a nightly basis, it seems, or something. And he creates, he writes extensive notes about, because he's very interested in getting into the flow state. Just because someone's trying to improvise and be there doesn't mean they're always doing what they think is the absolute pinnacle of what they can achieve. know, they seem to be doing great and we listen to it and it's wonderful, but for them each person has a certain bar. And to get into that state is a little bit outside their control, but they know the conditions that are more likely to lead to it. ⁓ The person who's talked a lot about this rather well about it, not a lot perhaps, is John Cleese actually. When he talks about the, you know, he's got a little creativity book out that came out, I think, two years ago. ⁓ But he has this very famous lecture now online that he has delivered to, delivered in the 90s to like a business crowd. ⁓ And he identifies conditions that you create. And I think this is what I think all creative, like people who are in the business of trying to be, like, know, it's either their profession or they love to do it, whatever it might be. Recognize that they need to shift something. intentionally about the way their minds are going down. Because our minds are mind brains if you want. essentially work on the principle of the path of least resistance, right? So if you want to get out of your room now, you're not going to take a zigzag path, you're going go straight to it. That's just automatic. It's what you're going to do. And that's because our brains are that way. We're just not going to do things that are unnecessary. This is not a problem in our daily life. This is absolutely excellent for our daily lives. When it comes to creativity though, going down the path of least resistance means going to the same boring space. So you have to essentially disrupt these pathways, these normal pathways that you're on. And most creative people have some way of getting disrupting their own ⁓ ability to take the easy way out. And they do it a number of different ways. And so someone like John Cleese points out, for instance, as a writer, ⁓ what you need to do. You need to sort of try and get into the open mode, the space where it's more playful. It's a little bit. It's zany and so on, but essentially you have to create a space time kind of, what does he call it? A space time oasis where you understand that there's going to be that voice that tells you don't do this, don't do that, but actually just wait for it to die down. Yeah. And then engage. When I had the opportunity to try and do some workshoppy things with some really eminent creators, composers, writers, and so on. James Taylor (25:57) Yeah. Anna Abraham (26:08) I tried to like engineer some disrupt some things for them. And they were, I remember one of the feedback I got was just sort of like, had this work for you? They're like, well, you could have, you could have made it really hard for us and we would have still managed to step out of it and do what we do because we literally have to train for this, you know, to not, to just break away from the path of least resistance. If there's noise in the area around you, you still have to work through it. If, ⁓ you know, ⁓ if you have a deadline, you have to, you have to get this composition done by then. You have to finish your writing by then. You just, you can't create a perfect, ⁓ there'll be lots of situations where you know that something is going to disrupt your ability to do it. And even in like high performance athletes, this is sort of like why they will do a lot of visualization to try and visualize all of the possible things that could go wrong here or change and defer from what you've trained for, ⁓ at least visualize it so that you can get down that different path. it is definitely neuro, I mean, to say it's chemical would be probably too basic, but it's, It's a behavioral, it's a cognitive behavioral sort of top-down thing you do that just blows things apart. And that can come to you easily when you're with enough practice. James Taylor (27:20) You were mentioning John Cleese. I was doing an event actually in Stockholm in Sweden and I was staying at a hotel and I bumped into him because he was staying at the same hotel and I actually had a we had a conversation, I was asking him about it. And one of the things I remember he said, maybe on the well-known videos or something else I'd seen him, was this idea of like a lens focusing and defocusing. And... Anna Abraham (27:28) Wow. James Taylor (27:42) And something I often talk and I've delivered this, I've mentioned this in Bogota and Colombia and I thought they were gonna kill me on stage when I said it, but there was some great work by Martha Farrar, a neuroscience professor from the University of Pennsylvania, where she said she discovered that high levels of caffeine coffee will reduce the number of insights that you have. Anna Abraham (28:02) Mmm. James Taylor (28:04) And what I was explaining to the audience, I said, there's nothing wrong with caffeine, coffee's great. And I use it for like the preparation stage and I'll use it for the last stage, like when you're building something. But often in these middle stages, like going back to the John Cleese thing, you actually want to defocus your brain and caffeine works exactly in the opposite. And when you tell the audience, business audiences that, they go, ah, I get it. But what I know, and I don't know, because you have the joy of speaking to all these students every day and they're lit up and... Often the audience I have to speak, I speak to and I love speaking to are very grounded business audiences that are thinking about KPIs and pharmaceutical companies or whatever the company is. And so my job is to go there and make the case for creativity in an audience that might not necessarily think there's great value, maybe the advertising department or the marketing. So I'm normally going in, speaking of a technical people, mechanics, chemical engineers, mechanical engineers for example. Anna Abraham (28:42) sure. James Taylor (29:02) One thing I have to do at the very start is I have to define what I mean by this word creativity. Because in the language we often hear it's like artistic or music. say, well that's not what I'm talking about here. That is important. For me and the definition I give, which is one of many I guess, creativity is about bringing new ideas to the mind. Innovation is about bringing new ideas to the world. But without creativity there is no innovation. Creativity is the engine of innovation. So once you're to get them on that, the other one that often they go, they're surprised at, is that creativity is a teachable or a trainable skill, like a language something can be improved upon. And the thing, and kind of coming back to the work that you do, I talked to her about the Torrance test. And I could have measured all of your creative levels when you came in today using something called the Torrance test, and I'll do a workshop with you, and at the end, we could have measured your creative, and we'll see it increase. And a lot of people are really shocked that there is something that actually, that this is a measurable thing. So, We should probably first, like you are at the Torrance Center, so we should probably describe, first of all, who is Torrance? And we're thinking about creativity. What is this Torrance test? And does it still hold up today? Anna Abraham (30:12) Yeah. Yeah, so I'm at the University of Georgia and my position is of the E. Paul Torrance professor. ⁓ Upon his retirement in 86, his graduate student founded the Torrance Center for Creativity. ⁓ Torrance was an educational psychologist and he realized, and you know, for those of us who aren't necessarily in education, ⁓ he realized that something was being, was not. being focused on at all when it came to child development and the development of children's skills, which was creativity. People focused on math, on language, science skills, and so on. But there was very little focus on creativity. And he was sort of prescient in realizing that this was something that was really necessary in the time. And so when he started to do this kind of work in the 50s and the 60s, the 1950s and the 1960s. And again, very prescient of him. was very aware of a lot. That was kind of the golden age of, you know, from the fifties on to the seventies, maybe creativity research, just a huge amount of impetus of work there. And he was very much in touch with all of those ⁓ theories. And I think spoke extensively to all of the big people in the field there. And what he recognized was that for education, the field of education and practice to take something seriously, you're to have to devise a test because they only you have to be able to pick, ⁓ create something measurable so that they know, we can target something, we can see a skill and we can see it develop. So again, very prescient in realizing that, it's great what the psychologists do in terms of like coming up with tasks and assessing creativity, but he took it a step further to say, I'm gonna take, I'm gonna devise a test for creativity, just like you have a test for anything else. And ⁓ it's still in use, it gets. ⁓ re-normed every 10 years. The last norming happened just last year. And so it's all constantly updated. And he had a range of tests of which only two are really widely used now because they have a lot more predictive value than the others. ⁓ And that one is ⁓ the verbal test and the other one is the figural test. So things like the one sounds and movement and all are not really used as much, not for the testing of creativity. Certainly... You could use them for the engagement of creative imagination in a big way to use in classrooms and so on. ⁓ So the test is still in use. It's used very widely in the United States and some other parts of the world, Turkey, not in South Korea and so on, where there is a huge amount of focus on creativity as one of the many traits that might distinguish highly capable children ⁓ from others who are less capable. ⁓ James Taylor (32:50) think Singapore, I seem to remember, were very big into, because obviously the PISA rankings, all these countries are obsessed about reaching the top of the PISA rankings. Anna Abraham (32:53) yeah. Yes. Yes, and speaking of PISA, PISA's last variant of PISA essentially added a new component which was critical in creative thinking. So ⁓ it's now part of the PISA measurements as well ⁓ to assess creative thinking. When you said Singapore and PISA, was like, because Singapore is part of that. James Taylor (33:15) And many of these tests then, they're measuring basically what we think like divergent and convergent thinking, your ability to do these different ways. Anna Abraham (33:23) Yeah. So I think what we have to be very careful about is like a lot of these tests, it's not, they measure very specific aspects of creativity. So there's some things that you can't measure through those test batteries because it involves, let's say, engaging in a creative practice in real time. doesn't test for flow. It can't because you have to be doing something to be engaged in flow. And you can ask about something retrospectively, which a lot of flow questionnaires do. ⁓ So there's lots of things that can't be tested in that format. But the things that they do look at are your ability to think, come up with a lot of different ideas, think divergently, think beyond the obvious, beyond the path of least resistance. And the focus is really on children more than adults because that's kind of what is this population, ⁓ especially because the norming goes from like, goes across childhood to adulthood, but isn't. continue after that. Like a lot of tests, it doesn't matter if you're 18 or 24, how you perform on a test. But there'll be a big difference depending on whether you're 10 or 15, right? So... James Taylor (34:26) I think for lot of these audience, business audiences, they kind of go, okay, realize, where can I do this test? And so then I tell them, you go online, they can take this test. The other one, which I'm not sure if you can have spoke so much about in the book, but kind of links, it's almost the historical thing you spoke about at the start. And I quote this myth of the lone creative genius. And I think it works very well because most large organizations are... Creativity is collaborative in most work. And one of the things I sometimes do, friend of mine, Frederick Haran, who's a wonderful speaker, speaks on creativity as well. He asked audiences at the start, how many people you consider yourself to be creative? And he said, depending if I'm speaking in America or Europe or South Korea, it's gonna be vastly different. Where it tends to be in Asia and especially South Asia, they tend to vote lower. And... Anna Abraham (34:55) Yeah. James Taylor (35:20) One of the things that I often talk with audiences about is this idea of this lone creative genius test, which you said at the start, it's a good narrative, it's great. And then, and you'll be able to kind of probably correct me on this, the one I, my understanding of where a lot of that kind of came from, if you go back in many societies, it was always felt that we were... we were vessels for creativity. That could come from the genius loci as the Romans recorded, the places themselves had their own creative genius or community or your tribe. And then a guy called Giorgio Vasari wrote a book, Lives of the Artists and the Renaissance. And he said, no, Leonardo. is the genius, it's not that he has genius, but by doing that he kind of painted out all the contribution of the Medici's, the sponsors, the paint, the supplies of all the equipment, all the assistants as well. So this, is this lone creative genius, is that something that kind of comes up or is it really a substrand of like something, this kind of myth that we often talk about? Anna Abraham (36:02) Hmm. Yeah, don't think a lot of the person, the people who've worked a lot on that are people like, you know, um, Simon and Dean, Simon and people like that. So there's. I think James Taylor (36:35) It's more cultural, isn't it? I guess more than it necessarily is scientific. Anna Abraham (36:39) Yeah, I think it's just in a time where I think a lot of the time you have to think about, were they alone by choice? There suddenly are people who are alone when they did it, or was it just not available? We live in a hyper-connected world, a hyper-social world. ⁓ So it's very hard to imagine the kind of person who would be sort of isolated in some little room. James Taylor (37:02) The Zen Master sitting on a mountain somewhere in Japan or... Anna Abraham (37:05) But it's there, right? Like there are certain types of fields for which that sort of solitariness is absolutely key to the, I would say it's not that it's a myth that it's there, it just depends on what type of creativity you're talking about, what field. I would say in the field of math, there's a lot of silence sitting around doing your thing, know, focusing very much on your task at hand. In writing, there's a lot of that. In music, there is not. There's a lot of, it really involves a lot. a huge set of people and increasingly more and more now as productions get more complex. ⁓ In writing, if you're writing a novel alone or a poem, that's a solitary thing. If you're writing for a show, there's a lot of group writing. So it just depends on the context and some content, you know, an athlete trying to get better and better, there's parts of it that's going to be very isolating, very, very themselves on their own trying to hone their techniques and others that demand that you are working with other people to hone your skills, to be able to react better and so on. So I think of this loan versus not loan question as a bit sort of, well, it kind of depends. The answer for me is a little bit banal because it depends on what you're trying to do. There are situations in which we would always say you need to get away and get into yourself. And there are others and it might be doing the same process and then other parts where you have to exchange. So in a scientific lab. There are parts by your way and other parts where you're exchanging with others. And as they say, exchange is oxygen, right? Like, I forget who said that. it is, there is no one part that, and I think anyone who would sort of put forward that there's one part to being creative is going to necessarily be wrong. There are, if anything, many, many routes. If you are going to be entirely on your own, it doesn't mean that you can't be creative. Of course you can, yeah? And so on. James Taylor (38:56) I always wanted to have a t-shirt, I always wanted to have a t-shirt, and you would go to, so I could go to these demonstrations about something, so someone was like very like fixed about, this is the right way, and another group was like, no, this is the right way. And I always wanted to have a t-shirt, which just said, I think you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that. Sorry, because then, so anyone wants to make a t-shirt? Because it is, but what, I mean, you're teaching, you're around, you're... Anna Abraham (39:13) Please make that one. James Taylor (39:24) like lots of educated people, incredibly smart women, but what is the most pervasive myth of all these myths that you share in the book? What is the most pervasive myth, even amongst people that you think probably should know better? Anna Abraham (39:42) I wouldn't say any one. I think a lot of the problem of how people approach creativity, and I think that's, I will count it as a myth, is that they see creativity on one hand as this magical thing that they don't or don't have, and like, please give me a bullet. Can I take psychedelics and then become more creative? So there's... A real lack of understanding, I think, of what it is, and that's primarily because we're very, notions of creativity are very much based on what we think of as creative. And for some of us, we will be looking at musicians. For others among us, we will be looking at authors and so on. But just like people are very famous, and that gives you a very skewed understanding of what creativity is. For me, the biggest myth is a lot of our notions about what creativity is are mythical or not completely correct. because it's based on exceptional creativity. People who've done things that are incredibly important for their fields and have really received the recognition for it, which is like the top 5%. But there is creativity that is most of the things that are more interesting about creativity for everyday regular people is based on, would say, is general creativity, everyday creativity. And things there look slightly different. actually. And so that, think, is the main reason why they're so mistaken about what creativity is. And the second thing is, I would say, related to that is that people looking at exceptionality think, exceptionality, came to them easy, they're talented. All of that is all wrong, by the way. People at that stage have had to work so, so hard. And so part of looking at things that look amazing and otherworldly, makes us think that this comes to people easily. They've not had to work hard. And the other side is the unglamorous part of creativity is where the real truth is, which is that it's a craft. You have to keep working at it. It's actually better to think of it as akin to physical fitness. That, you know, we never tell people, well, don't bother running because you can't run as fast as the St. Both. That's exceptional physical prowess. What we're looking at is like normal physical fitness. And it's good for me. to try and run a little bit, even though they're not going to be the fastest, right? And so that's way to think about creativity is as more like your own creative fitness is about pushing yourself, but only doing things makes you understand what you are uniquely capable of. And that's where creativity is. A lot of bad focus on creativity, I think, comes from understand thinking of creativity as externally determined. Only if someone recognizes that I'm creative, am I being creative. That's also. very separate from what you create, what you come up with, because that's the starting point. The starting point is not how someone else sees it. The starting point is actually what you come up with. So there's just, for me, it's hard to pick on one because there are so many terrible notions we have about creativity ⁓ that come from a very skewed understanding. We're looking at a distinct few, ⁓ and we think about it as more simple than it is, if you see what I mean. James Taylor (42:50) Do it. The one I often think about is when someone says, ⁓ of someone who's very, they're doing an amazing job, whatever their field is, you're such a natural. It's so natural. And I think about someone like Nikki Glaser who did the Oscars, I think it was last year, the Emmys last year. And her performance, her opening monologue was so brilliant. And... but what people don't see is that she rehearsed that 87 times. She workshopped that bit, that 10 minute bit so many times. And someone like Michael Caine said, the practice is the work, the performance is the play. And the audience only ever see that tiny little bit at the front and go, it's so natural. It's obviously so natural. I guess that as a compliment because the person has put in those hours and it's made it like, I mean, I'm sure like when you write that book, Anna Abraham (43:23) yours. Mm-hmm. James Taylor (43:48) that is just the smallest part of all that research, all those years you've spent studying as well. As we start to finish up here, I would love to know, we're gonna talk about, we're gonna have links to your book and your work as well, but is there a book by another author just now that you've been, it could be related to creativity or even maybe a bit broader than that, that's really made you kind of rethink? this field that you're in, or you've come at it and it's just kind of like a breath of fresh air, or you've just kind of reconsidered ⁓ the world and the way you look at it in some ways. Is there a book that's been like that over the past year or so for you? Anna Abraham (44:25) book on creativity? James Taylor (44:27) It could be on something else, maybe obviously with your kind wide academic side as well. Anna Abraham (44:35) There are a few things. When it comes to a book on creativity, would recommend the active, oh my God, no, we're gonna have to redo this. What's his name? James Taylor (44:49) We'll put a link to it. Anna Abraham (44:53) What's it called? Well, it's Rick Rubin's creativity book. James Taylor (44:56) Oh yeah, it's cool. I know it's got the circle on it. I can see it now actually. It's called... Yes, I know the one. I blanked on it. The creative act, that's the one? Yes. Yes. Anna Abraham (45:02) Yeah. ⁓ The creative act, the creative, is that what? Yeah, okay. ⁓ I think that is. For me, I found that just very intriguing ⁓ because a lot of the time when you read interviews or the scientific work can get so divorced from what creativity is that it felt wonderful sort of listening to a practitioner, someone who really is in the business of creativity, but being able to recognize and of course constantly being the business of listening to things that are new, completely new and trying to figure out how this how it makes you feel and so on. So I just liked the whole experiential nature of how he focuses on the creative act and really makes a case for that internal over the external more than anything else is the starting point. And I think very few, very few books ever do that. ⁓ So I think that was would count because that was maybe in the last year that I read it. ⁓ And more recently, ⁓ In preparation for a class that I'm doing, started to read Bill Bryson's book called The Body. And that's been marvelous ⁓ to really get a sense of how incredible the human body is and how little we know. from what we, know, it's a nice sort of overview of all of our different systems and how much we think we know what we know and how much we get wrong and how sort of the early pioneers. in these fields, a lot of them were like absolute heroes who died in the cause and then others are just disgusting specimens who stole their students' work. It's just this wonderful sort of outlining of what it takes to build a field of knowledge and all of the remarkable sort of little stories in there, ⁓ including getting a sense of what our bodies are. things like, I don't know, the... James Taylor (46:52) Yeah. Fantastic. Anna Abraham (47:10) the brain in your gut, right? Like gut brain. When I started as a neuroscience student, we weren't really taught this, but there's so much now that we know. So it's just wonderful to read that, to have read that, to get a sort of renewed appreciation of how remarkable our physiology is, this thing that allows us to be creative. It all starts from the body, from within you. And that's been wonderful to, yeah, to have that reignited again, that appreciation. James Taylor (47:13) Mmm. Great, we'll put those links here as well. And finally, if people want to learn more about you and your work, we're have a link to the Creative Brain. But if they want to learn more about the research, the other things that you're working on, just now that over there in Georgia, where's the best place for to go and do that? Anna Abraham (47:51) Possibly my website is the best place, which is www.anna-abraham.com. ⁓ That's where I keep things updated, but people can always email me if they have questions. James Taylor (48:05) Well, Dr. Anna Abraham, it's been a pleasure having you on the SuperCreativity Podcast. Thanks for being a guest. Anna Abraham (48:11) Thank you so much for this conversation. The post The Creative Brain: Busting Myths About Creativity with Dr. Anna Abraham #361 appeared first on James Taylor.

The Untapped Science of Less: Why Subtraction Unlocks Better Ideas with Dr. Leidy Klotz #359 In this episode of the SuperCreativity Podcast, James Taylor speaks with Dr. Leidy Klotz, engineer, designer, behavioral scientist, and author of Subtract: The Untapped Science of Less. Klotz reveals why our brains are biased toward adding complexity—and why the smartest solution is often to remove, reduce, or simplify.From Lego bridges and Jenga-inspired problem solving to organizational strategy and sustainability, Klotz shows how subtraction can fuel innovation, improve decision-making, and create more meaningful lives. Learn why leaders struggle to showcase competence by doing less, how subtraction improves team morale, and why sustainability, education, and design sectors are embracing the power of removal.If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by too many meetings, endless features, or bloated systems, this conversation will inspire you to see less as progress, not sacrifice.Soundbytes: “Our first instinct is to add—but the real breakthrough often comes when we subtract.”“Subtraction isn’t about less for the sake of less—it’s about clearing space for what really matters.”“Innovation isn’t always building more. Sometimes, it’s about removing the unnecessary.”“Great design, great strategy, and even great lives are defined not by what we add, but by what we choose to take away.”“Subtraction feels counterintuitive, but it’s the hidden lever for creativity and progress.” Apple Podcast Spotify Podcast Takeaways Our brains default to adding, not subtracting — but subtractive thinking can create elegant and effective solutions. Visible subtraction matters — leaders must model it for teams to feel empowered to simplify. Sustainability thrives on subtraction — less packaging, less waste, less complexity equals more progress. Subtraction boosts morale — removing tasks or meetings frees up mental energy and creativity. Simple rituals help — swap to-do lists for stop-doing lists, or remove one recurring meeting to reclaim focus. In his upcoming book, James Taylor delves into the transformative concept of SuperCreativity™—the art of amplifying your creative potential through collaboration with both humans and machines. Drawing from his experiences speaking in over 30 countries, James combines compelling stories, case studies, and practical strategies to help readers unlock innovation and harness the power of AI-driven tools. This book is a must-read for anyone looking to elevate their creativity and thrive in the modern age of human-machine collaboration. James Taylor is a highly sought-after keynote speaker, often booked months or even years in advance due to his exceptional expertise. Given his limited availability, it’s crucial to contact him early if you’re interested in securing a date or learning how he can enhance your event. Reach out to James Taylor now for an opportunity to bring his unique insights to your conference or team. 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CHAPTERS 00:00 – Introduction to Dr. Leidy Klotz and Subtract01:49 – Why addition isn’t always the answer04:08 – The Lego bridge story: A child’s insight into subtraction07:00 – Why subtraction feels harder than addition09:54 – The visibility problem: How leaders can model subtraction13:39 – Subtraction in leadership: examples from Steve Jobs and Capital One16:14 – Maya Lin’s Vietnam Veterans Memorial as a powerful subtractive design19:56 – Marie Kondo, “omit needless words,” and joyful subtractions21:47 – Innovation vs. exnovation: why patents rarely focus on subtraction23:30 – Sustainability as subtraction: packaging, waste, and planetary limits26:30 – Rituals: stop-doing lists, subtractive AI prompts, and meeting-free time28:15 – How subtraction improves morale and team performance31:59 – From marginal gains to subtractive culture in organizations34:20 – Airlines, hotels, and small subtractions that save costs and resources36:22 – Quotes, notebooks, and tools for creativity38:22 – Book recommendations: Soccer in Sun and Shadow & The Extended Mind39:45 – Where to learn more about Leidy Klotz and his upcoming work TRANSCRIPT James Taylor (00:09)Today I'm joined by Dr. Lydie Klotz, an engineer, designer, and behavioral scientist whose work challenges a deep-seated bias in how we think and act. His book, Subtract, the untapped science of less, flips our default impulse to add onto its head, showing how sometimes the smartest move is actually to remove. I mean, that's a weird way of writing that. Sorry, let me just go again. I'll re-start that. Smartest. Leidy Klotz (00:36) I it was good. The James Taylor (00:38) It's my move is to remove that's yeah. Yeah, okay. I've got I've got I've got the hit they re on the remove. That's fine. Let me just go again Leidy Klotz (00:38) smartest move is actually to... to re-move. You gotta hit the... Well, I don't know, I mean, or you can leave it settle. I thought it was good. Anyway. James Taylor (00:50) That's fine. I'll go again. Don't worry. Okay. Today I'm joined by Dr. Lydie Klotz, an engineer, designer, and behavioral scientist whose work challenges a deep-seated bias in how we think and act. His book, Subtract, the Untapped Science of Less, flips our default impulse to add onto its head, showing how sometimes the smartest move is to remove. He supports this with experiments from Lego models to freeway demolitions and interventions from Jenga-inspired thinking to stop doing lists. Subtract is a rare blend of science, strategy, and design perfect for listeners wondering how to simplify systems, sharpen decisions, and lead more intentionally. Lydie Klotz, welcome to the Super Creativity Podcast. Leidy Klotz (01:40) Thanks for having me, James. That was great. I love the smartest move is to remove. That's like one I haven't thought of it, but that's, it's very memorable. mean, I caught it. So that's great. James Taylor (01:49) a bit of little bit of alliteration there. Now you've come from these different, these worlds of engineering, architecture, behavioral science. tell us what professional or personal moment first made you suspicious that addition wasn't always the answer. Leidy Klotz (01:52) Yeah. And I mean, one of the stories I tell in the book is, mean, I remember my summer job was mowing grass and I would do it. I did it for my parents and then I eventually did it for this guy who owned all the property in town. And I remember that gives you a lot of time to think, right. And about all these deep questions. And one of the questions I had was like, why am I why is there all this grass here that seems to only exist for the purpose of me mowing it, right? And ⁓ so it's just something that I've always noticed as a ⁓ person interested in trying to change things from how they are to how we want them to be, right? ⁓ And whether that's through engineering or design or education, that's as professionals, all of us are engaged in that in some way. And you kind of see that there's I didn't conceptualize it as subtracting at first, but I did notice these opportunities where, ⁓ things are actually better because there's less. ⁓ Whether it's the not having to mow grass or whether it's a really neat modernist building that has clean lines and all these examples. James Taylor (03:18) you were just talking about that and I'm looking out as I'm recording this just now I'm looking at the grass that I have to go and mow probably after this call but we had a guest on Dr. Joseph Gibelli who was talking about, we had this conversation about boredom and the benefits of boredom sometimes because we live in this know 24-7 like base switched on world and he said you know sometimes we just have to like disconnect and be a bit bored and that's where some of those ideas start Leidy Klotz (03:34) Okay, Yeah. Mm-hmm. James Taylor (03:46) bubbling to the surface as well. So in this world that we're in just now, which often has more features, more complexity, more choices, you chose to explore in your work kind of subtle removal. So was there a project or an industrial trend that convinced you that subtraction was actually something that urgently needed to be attended to? Leidy Klotz (04:08) I I was seeing these trends the same way you are. And I love how you connected, like, you know, went from the physical world of lawn mowing to the mental world of boredom, right? And, or just, you know, idleness or, you know, I'm sure the people who are listening to this are familiar with the idea that, you know, you get away from your screen and stop trying to do work and you go for a run and that's when the idea comes, right? And, you know, so there are all these examples. I think if, if anything helped me, crystallized the idea that then became the research in the book. It was just playing Legos with my son. And we played a lot of Legos. ⁓ But one particular time we were building a bridge and he was three. And ⁓ the basic problem we had was that the bridge wasn't level and the bridge. So one of the support columns was shorter than the other support column. So I'm the dad and I have my engineering background. It's going to come in handy here, right? I reached behind me to grab a block to add to the shorter column. But by the time I had turned back around with the block, my son had removed a block from the, from the longer column and made the level bridge by taking away. And so Whereas all these other examples, I was kind of like focusing on the end state of like ⁓ streamlined building or boredom. This was like, okay, there's ⁓ a step here. There's an action that has to happen, which is to take away from what's already there. ⁓ And that's subtracting. And, you the Legger bridge has proven such a useful example, because we've we've since done a ton of research to kind of see how our brain thinks about this and it does is very similar to what happened to me in that moment, which is, okay, we've got this thing that we want to make better, which is in this case, it's a unlevel bridge. In other cases, it's like we want to have innovation. We want to come up with an idea. We want to make our organization work more smoothly. ⁓ And our first thought is what can we add to it, right? To make it better. And then we add and move on without even considering this whole other class of options and that's why sometimes the the smartest move is to remove. yeah. James Taylor (06:17) It's funny because as you were talking about that I was just thinking there was a video I saw a little while ago of the actor Michael Caine and he was talking about the first time he got into ⁓ film making, being a movie star from being a theatre actor and so he would go on he did his first thing and the actor, the director said cut and he just the actor came the director came up to Michael Caine said less, little bit less and he goes next take a gain, try again, stop! Leidy Klotz (06:24) Okay. Yeah. James Taylor (06:46) The director comes out, no, less, less. And he does it a third time, no, no, less, less, I want you to do less. And Michael Caine said, listen, if I do any less, I won't be doing anything. And the director said, exactly. So why does it sometimes feel that subtraction is almost kind of harder? it a cultural thing, we glorify accumulation, or is it? Leidy Klotz (07:00) That's it, yeah. James Taylor (07:14) economic or is it just the way that our brain works we all always want to Leidy Klotz (07:18) a little bit of both all and I think so the first part is that yeah that is how our brain works right that our brain immediately thinks to add and that's the default so you know you're we're we have these biases and these mental shortcuts that make it so that you know it generally serves us well to think of adding first and then move on and that just relieves cognitive load to not have to think about subtracting. Of course, we can think about it. I mean, we're talking about it right now and you can remind yourself to think about it. And then you have this world where it's, really hard to show kind of competence through subtracting, right? It's, it's very often hard to show that you're doing a good job if you take something away. ⁓ and that, you know, that has roots in just like what we value in society. And, you know, sometimes people will be like, well, this is just an American thing, right? But it's, it's actually very like animal thing. ⁓ Where, ⁓ what my favorite example for this is the bowerbirds. And these are the birds that build ceremonial nests. So the male bowerbird builds a ceremonial nest. ⁓ And then the female bowerbirds go around looking at the nests and decide to mate. decide which male to mate with based on which nest they like the best, ⁓ which kind of makes sense so far. But then the female bowerbird goes and builds a nest to raise and shelter the young. So the whole point of the first male-billed nest is just to show that this this bird can move sticks around in the world, that they can effectively interact with the world around them. And it's one of the most robust ideas in psychology. I mean from From male bowerbirds, also applies to female bowerbirds. applies to male and female humans that like we want to show that we can effectively interact with our world. And it's not just in physical ways, but also task completion, just, you know, checking something off your to-do list or sending an email to your boss that is showing you're, you're still there and doing things that that gives us this jolt of. hey, I'm effectively interacting with the world. ⁓ I mean, of course we can subtract to effectively interact with the world, but when we do so, there's not really evidence most of the time, right? When you take away a meeting or when you take away or when you're sitting bored, I mean, it doesn't look like you're doing things. And so we kind of have to work against that by making subtractions visible. James Taylor (09:54) So as you were saying that, I'm thinking in my head of a lot of conferences you go to and you have the, if I'm speaking at a conference, it's maybe there's a CEO up on the stage and he's kind of puffing at his chest like that male power bird, just saying like, we want to add these new features, we're do this new feature and this new feature as well. If you were be able to sit him to the side and say, and trying to convince him of the benefits of maybe, Leidy Klotz (10:08) Yeah! Exactly, yeah. James Taylor (10:20) doing less, of stripping back features, of subtraction, of simplification, what is that key argument you would make to that alpha male in the room? Leidy Klotz (10:32) ⁓ It's interesting. actually, just went to, I did a conference and I mean, that was the keynote. So they were talking about subtracting, ⁓ but they, they totally flipped it around. mean, the, the, you know, alpha male in quotes, they were the ones advocating for this. And I actually think when we're talking about visibility, those are the people with the opportunity, right? Because if you imagine yourself as a new employee coming in, you're not going to say, look, here's this radical subtraction I'm going to do. It's very critical to show competence. And the safe way to do that is to just kind of keep going with the routine. as the leader, I guess my pitch would be is like, you have this opportunity for this untapped way to make your organization better. And surely there are things that you realize could be subtracted to the organization better. If you exemplify that then it's going to trickle down into all dimensions of your you know that gives the the people working for you the the freedom or the the inspiration that they can also look for ways to subtract to make things better. So that would be my ⁓ you know kind of logical one. Maybe the more emotional appeal would be you know Steve Jobs right? I mean his whole thing. said Steve Jobs couldn't think of buttons to add to the iPhone. He made his subtraction very visible. You could see that there was competence behind the subtractions. I think maybe that's another key distinction here. This isn't just about like, we're going to get rid of 35 % of the employees just because I feel like doing it. It's no, here's a way to make the business better. that's subtraction and I'm going to do it. And it's actually more work, right? We have to design the whole iPhone and then we have to decide which buttons are redundant and we're gonna keep going even beyond that and strip down even more. And that's gonna be our competitive advantage. yeah, you can kind of exemplify that and show, make it visible and lead by example. I have one more small story. I mean, that's like the kind of in the... You painted a very great picture of the standing in front of the organization. But one of my favorite. a leader who exemplifies subtraction is Melanie Frank. She's a vice president at Capital One and a friend. ⁓ And ⁓ she just makes it a point every time she goes to her teams and they work on technology projects and she gives them like really ambitious things to do. And when she says, when she assigns something, she says, hey, I'm asking you to do something really big that only you can do and that is going to take a lot of work. What can I take off your plate? Right? ⁓ And so that's... the puff the chest out leader but it's still kind of leading by example and showing that this is something that can be done in this organization to make it better subtracting that is. James Taylor (13:39) Yeah, it's funny, like sometimes all those kind of simple things, there was an event I was doing recently in San Diego, and there was a speaker on the day before me. And I'm always interested, I wasn't at the day before, but I was asking the attendees, like what was the most interesting thing you learned yesterday or the speaker that you heard from? And there was a gentleman who was a former US Navy SEAL, but there was this other speaker that was speaking and... she got everyone, and these were all very senior people within the FinTech industry, to take their phones out, which is normally a thing the speaker doesn't want the audience to do, but take their phones out and go through their calendar and look at that, maybe that recurring meeting or that thing they have in their calendar that they can delete, they can remove. And then she said, then I want you to take that time and I want you to do like 30 minutes of... Leidy Klotz (14:13) Alright, yeah. that's amazing. Yeah. James Taylor (14:29) de-work or go out for a walk or and she gave different things to do and it was interesting speaking to the attendees at that event, that was one of the most simple yet most powerful things that came from that event, from people just saying I'm just, I've got that 30 minutes back in my week that I didn't have before and that was all about what your book is about which is about subtraction. Leidy Klotz (14:43) Mm-hmm. That's a brilliant speaking act. I might have to steal it if it's not copyrighted. I think the, yeah. Well, as you know, it works. mean, because so often the thing there is like, how do you get the idea to action, right? And if you can make the action right in the event and then you're remembering the idea because you took the action. The other brilliant thing about that, it sounds like they left, ⁓ when. James Taylor (14:58) ⁓ I'm definitely stealing that. think there's no shame in stealing another speaker's idea. Leidy Klotz (15:20) when you take something off of your calendar, if you then put like, okay, this deep work time brought to you by the fact that you subtracted is a way to keep that idea front and center and remember that you can use it for future. Whereas if you just kind of free it up and then it's an open spot on your calendar, you might just fill it up with something equally useless later. So I love that. James Taylor (15:43) Yeah. Now, ⁓ when you wrote the book, who in the book, were there any kind of mentors or allies you had and you talked about in the book who became really great exemplars of this idea of subtraction? You mentioned the CEO of Capital One. Were there any other ones that you thought, this is a really good example maybe of a CEO or a leader or civic leader perhaps, or someone from the world of design and obviously architecture as well, that really exemplifies this idea of subtract? Leidy Klotz (16:14) I, one of my favorites that comes to mind is Maya Lin. ⁓ And so she's the designer who designed the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington, DC. And if you've never been, it's, mean, it's just, it does everything a monument is supposed to do. ⁓ basically it's on the mall in Washington, DC. It's among all these huge. James Taylor (16:28) Yeah. Leidy Klotz (16:39) big monuments to very important things that have happened, but the Vietnam Veterans Memorial is like it's cut into the ground. ⁓ So it's beneath the earth instead of on top of it. It's also very minimalist design. It's just slabs of, I'm gonna say, I forget what, I think it's just granite, but it's some very simple stone. ⁓ And it just creates this stunning ⁓ effect. ⁓ So it's what I like about that example is, you we're talking about how it's hard to show competence through subtracting or it's hard to kind of make a statement through subtracting. But I think it's that shows that even in this arena where it's like everybody's going bigger and bigger and bigger and trying to make the boldest statement possible. And sometimes the boldest statement can be made by kind of bucking that trend. ⁓ So I love that example. And there's ⁓ I also like it because there's some, know, she, Maya's written about her thinking about that and she was, it's very intentional that she wanted to subtract and she kept kind of stripping things away that could be on that design, but weren't gonna serve this kind of larger vision that she had for it. ⁓ Also, I mean, the last thing I would say about that is because it's such a simple design, she was able to put everybody's name on the memorial who, died in the conflict and ⁓ I don't know it just seems like a really powerful you know kind of addition and subtraction working together. ⁓ So that's ⁓ that's one from the phys- James Taylor (18:15) Yeah, it's a powerful physical thing. And I often think I was there recently and because on the other side of the mall, on the end you've obviously the Lincoln Memorial, know, the Martin Luther King Jr. And you think I was thinking about it in terms of the storytelling, you know, how you take an idea and project it forward. ⁓ Leidy Klotz (18:28) Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. James Taylor (18:41) or memory as well. I just, I thought it was an interesting juxtaposition of, because that Lincoln Memorial is very big and posing on one end. And then you've got obviously the Vietnam Memorial as well. Leidy Klotz (18:47) Mm-hmm. And I think, I mean, this is something that I try to make sure to bring up in all the times I talk to people. it's, you it's obvious after you say it, but the it's not that these are opposites, right? It's like, it's not that adding is bad and some adding can be a way to make a very powerful statement and so can subtracting, right? And so it's a, you know, the King Memorial makes a statement in one way and the Vietnam Memorial makes a statement in another way. And so as we're thinking about our innovation and creativity, whatever form that is, to think about these two tools as adding and subtracting as options at our disposal is helpful for me at least. ⁓ I'll give one more example. ⁓ Like Marie Kondo, ⁓ so I... Every time I told people about this research, they kept saying, well, Marie Kondo. And so then I eventually had to like go learn what she was about. And I mean, you know, the idea on its surface is very simple, right? It's like tidy and get rid of things. James Taylor (19:47) Hahaha Leidy Klotz (19:56) in a very extreme fashion, but I read her book and I mean, she has this like relentless focus on sparking joy, which I think is really great because, you know, one of the things with subtraction is it's really easy to put it into this mindset of sacrifice. And there are certainly subtractions that are a sacrifice, like, okay, we have to cut 25 % of the employees because we didn't, we need to for the budget. But there are also subtractions that are. joyful and that can make things better and that's the kind of class that that we're talking about. So I really respect how Kondo kind of helped people realize that, at least in the decluttering arena. And then I'll give one more example because I love how at the beginning you kind of went immediately from physical to the to the mental world with boredom. mean, omit needless words, right? That's Strunk and White's classic writing advice. And there are all these writers who have different versions of that. I mean, there's Stephen King's Kill Your Darlings. There's Mark Twain and whoever he cribbed it from talking about, you know, I would have written a longer, or would have written a shorter letter, but I didn't have enough time. So I love all those examples too. James Taylor (21:10) Yeah, it's like often when we talk about innovation and everyone wants to talk about innovation, but no one wants to talk about exnovation, about things you remove. It's like the, it's the unsexy part of innovation. Like, but actually, you know, often when I work with organizations and sometimes what they, you know, they immediately go for the adding the features part. And it's sometimes a bit of a, sometimes a little bit of a struggle to like... Leidy Klotz (21:16) Yeah. Yeah. James Taylor (21:38) Okay, just before you go there, because you're actually going to want to go there anyway, what can we strip it back first before we think to add things? Leidy Klotz (21:47) Yeah, we did some research on. ⁓ on patents and just it was very kind of surface level, but looking at synonyms for adding and subtracting in the patent applications and, ⁓ you know, subtracting way underused as a way to get a patent. ⁓ Suggesting what you said, right? The default way of kind of innovating is to add. And I know that there are like many forces in the patent system where you need to show ⁓ show novelty, right? And it might be easier to show a novelty through adding, but it does, you know, the data that we have suggests that, you know, the same thing that happens in everywhere else in our lives is also happening in that innovation process. Is ex-innovation a term that is that term used a lot in the US? I've seen it a bunch, like in kind of European writing, but ⁓ yeah, I don't know. James Taylor (22:44) Yeah, actually, I did an article about it recently in a video, which was, I actually got a little bit of hate mail. Not that we get very much hate mail in this, but I was actually talking to it in relation, because I mentioned Elon Musk, because obviously in the US there's a doge thing that's going on. And I was talking about exnovation, which is like removing things. Leidy Klotz (22:55) It's... ⁓ Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah. Right. James Taylor (23:06) And my goodness, I won't do that again. That was kind of pretty full on the messages I got after that one. But I still feel very strongly, I think it was felt... Yeah, yeah. And I think obviously in Europe... ⁓ Leidy Klotz (23:15) just because they felt, they just felt that it was aligned with his kind of design philosophy. Yeah. James Taylor (23:25) you know, he's actually in lots of places, he's quite a controversial character. But the main point was, you know, rather like him or not, that's not the point. It was about the extent of that pulling things away. And actually, I'd be interested to get your take on this, but one area where I do see this idea of what you're talking about subtracting being really thought of very deeply is around sustainability. Leidy Klotz (23:30) yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah. James Taylor (23:54) especially like food companies, packaging companies, I was talking to companies involved in plastics the other day about this, and when you're now putting this book out into the world, I'm interested like which industries are you getting a sense of resonating with the ideas in the book? Leidy Klotz (24:11) Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, the whole chapter, I think it's chapter seven in the book is basically devoted to sustainability because there's this kind of always been this long standing debate in sustainability about progress and growth, right? And the sustainability people will say growth is the problem. then, of course, that's also growth is. done a lot of amazing things, right? But subtracting is a way where you can kind of keep innovating, keep making progress, and also not push up against planetary limits, just at a very big, ⁓ big level as you're thinking about sustainability. And then, of course, as you bring it down to the level of like businesses trying to be more sustainable, well, if you can get rid of half your packaging, that's a pretty surefire win, right? It's like making it's more sustainable and it's saving you money. ⁓ So I think that there's that. angle with sustainability. I wish there'd been more, I mean I've talked to some groups about the sustainability implications. I think definitely medicine, education. I guess most of the groups that I'm talking to are interested in this because they feel like their system is bloated and they want help trying to fix the bloated system as opposed to Yeah, but then there's, you know, a sprinkling of the sustainability people and then, you know, kind of the people who design slash creativity, you know, see this as an angle for it too. It's been, I mean, it's as you know, it's really interesting going to talk to these groups and learn about their, their little worlds and, how things work in them. And that, you know, informs my ideas. ⁓ But yeah, I would say education, medicine, sustainability, and design are maybe the three or four kind of main criteria, main areas. James Taylor (26:08) So let's help our listeners now. They're listening to this, kind of on board with this idea. They're ready. Tell us, there a ritual that's really powerful for this idea of subtraction in terms of how someone could just start to implement it in their own daily work that they're doing? Leidy Klotz (26:11) Yeah, yeah. They're ready? Yeah, well, so get their phone out and subtract that recurring meeting, which, yeah. No, think, know, step one, they've already done, right? And it's like just having this. James Taylor (26:30) That beating. Leidy Klotz (26:36) I think there is great value in this just as a construct and as an idea and as a thing that you say, okay, subtracting is a thing. I heard it on James's podcast and then now it's more likely to be an option in the ways that you innovate. So you've done that part of it, ⁓ but that's just kind of a reminder and the more that you can practice it, the better. I would say thinking about ways to build it into your standard operating procedures. So a very simple example is just, know, a lot of us have a to-do list, right? And you say, okay, what am I going to do next week? Maybe you sit down on Monday to do that. When you're doing your to-do lists, which is a very additive thing, can you also think about some stop doings, right? And I'm not saying you need to do that specific thing, but that's an example of building this into your process. AI, think, I know you do a lot of interesting things there, ⁓ is actually a really helpful tool with this, right? Are you giving any like subtractive AI prompts? AI is really good at taking information that's there and getting, know, stripping it down. So ⁓ can you, you know, James Taylor (27:38) Yeah. Leidy Klotz (27:46) when you ask it to plan your vacation, then can you say, can you plan my vacation and actually give me some free time in my vacation and have it subtract things? can ⁓ you make this email 50 % as long and look at the results? So building it into your standard processes ⁓ is the next thing to do after listening to this podcast. James Taylor (28:00) Yeah. when you've started to see teams implement the ideas in the book as well, what kind of transformations have you seen with the team? Is it been things like obviously around performance or morale or what changes have you seen happen? Leidy Klotz (28:15) Mm-hmm. I'm usually there for the morale part. And I'm glad you brought that up because it goes back to your ⁓ CEO on the stage depiction, right? And if you can empower people to do this and they can see that they can like take a measure of control over how they feel overwhelmed, I mean, that's the most immediate benefit is just. on the morale right away. And then the performance things come later after you're kind of operating in that environment for a longer time. But the morale is a huge one. ⁓ I'd also say that you need to, know, adding is our default, right? If we don't change anything, that's what we're going to do. And our research showed, and know, common sense just suggests that the more overwhelmed we are, the way we tend to solve that problem is by adding more things, right? So if you can help teams relieve this initial overwhelm, then they have more time to think, which makes them more likely to think about all their options, which makes them more likely to implement subtraction. So when they start to relieve their overwhelm, then things get progressively better. And also, ⁓ James Taylor (29:38) What about, I'm just wondering in there on, as I'm thinking about that, kind going back to this idea of this leaders and the team side as well, you know, when a, let's say, often you see leaders and organizations, they get really fixated around one particular book. Leidy Klotz (29:45) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. James Taylor (29:55) checklist manifesto, for example, is, okay, we need to focus totally on checklists or measure what matters, know, get completely into OKRs. We're going to get obsessed with OKRs. I saw something the other day where it was, you know, delight, delighting the customer, giving every employee the ability to send two and a half thousand dollars on a customer without having to seek manager approval. So there's all these different kind of ways. So as you start to see, let's say if I am a leader and I'm buying into the idea of the book, this is what we should be doing. Leidy Klotz (30:10) really? James Taylor (30:25) we've got things that have got too complicated, we're kind of losing sight of really what we're trying to do here. How would they start to waterfall or filter the ideas from the book down into the team to make it not just an idea, but actually a culture within the organization? Leidy Klotz (30:45) Yeah, I mean, think leading by example, right, like the Melanie Frank example of asking people what you can take off their plate. I mean, that's the cultural thing. I'd say, I mean, I know there's, it's doing big things, right? Being like aggressive with the subtractions and, you know, so things. When I talk to groups, I challenge them to say, hey, maybe this is something you don't even think we should get rid of, but just bring it up. I mean, we had a group that we were working with and they brought up getting rid of a whole, essentially like one of their five main business lines. it just led to a useful discussion about why you would want to do that and how that would look if you did do that. ⁓ So I think having... having bold examples kind of makes it more likely that people are going to ⁓ engage in their own little worlds and again leads by example. I don't know, you probably have ideas too, yeah. James Taylor (31:50) ⁓ As I was thinking about the ideas in the book, one thing immediately came to mind, I know you have a background as a sports person as well, being a soccer ⁓ player, think, initially in your life. one thing that, I mean, a professional soccer player, you are now probably the first former professional soccer player we've ever had on this show. But it did remind me of... Leidy Klotz (31:59) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I was a professional player. Now I'm a go ahead. Now I'm a U11 coach under 11. James Taylor (32:19) A story I sometimes tell about the Team Sky Cycling Team, which is about this idea of the aggregation of marginal gains, which James Clear, I think, spoke about in Atomic Habits in his book as well, where ⁓ basically if you just break down every component that goes into, in this case, competing on a bike, for example, and you just look to improve every element by just 1%, which sounds like a really small number, it compounds. It's like compounding with investing, for example. ⁓ Leidy Klotz (32:30) Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. James Taylor (32:49) And one thing I thought would be a nice way you could layer this into an organization is every opportunity, getting everyone that sense of psychological safety, everyone that feels empowered to be looking for opportunities to make these 1 % marginal gains through subtraction. So not adding new things as well. And I would say this especially on larger companies where a lot of the time they're thinking about how to make things more efficient. Leidy Klotz (33:07) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. James Taylor (33:19) for example, and AI is obviously amazing and they're thinking about the big, you know, big gains from there as well, but there's so much within that, like just making things more efficient by those 1 % marginal gains. I thought that subtraction could be a perfect thing to sit within that. Leidy Klotz (33:34) Yeah, think if you can, again, that's where you're kind of building it into your processes and then it's all of a sudden it's an option in all of these decision points that you may have otherwise been overlooking. So, you know. Yeah, I think that's another example of that is ⁓ like building it into annual reviews, for example, right? So every annual review you talk about, here are the three amazing things I'm going to do next year. It's like, well, what are the things that you're going to stop doing? And again, by putting it in the process, it's helping people think of it, but it's also helping make it OK and make it part of the culture and make it part of what this group does that then hopefully spills over into all these other things that they're doing. James Taylor (34:20) Yeah, I saw it happen recently with an airline. It was a little bit controversial. Some people didn't like this and some people did like this where normally on the airline, everyone gets a bottle of water on the flight. But now what they do is they go around and they fill it from the steward or what fills it from like a large bottle of water. Everyone gets a little cup, I guess. Leidy Klotz (34:33) Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah. James Taylor (34:41) but you have to ask. And they were saying about what that saved in terms of not just plastic, but in terms of the weight. And we think about weight equals fuel, equals cost. And there was like some ridiculously huge number by just making that one little small subtraction. And a lot of passengers were very unhappy about it, I would say as well. So you have to like from a customer perspective as well. But I just thought that was an interesting little subtraction piece. Leidy Klotz (34:49) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and think if you can find the ones that the customers don't care about, I don't know if, I think this is a Rory Sutherland example. If it's not, it should be. ⁓ He wrote a piece after looking at our research and then was talking about how. he then he contended that you don't nobody wants a bellhop at the hotel that if you you could get rid of them and people would be perfectly fine and actually happier and it would be less awkward just carrying your your bag in most of the time and but again i don't know if that's the right or wrong thing but there are these services that we're providing that don't actually make people happier and if you can get rid of those then ⁓ that's a win for everybody James Taylor (35:47) Yeah. Yeah, I think that example, that was a hotel, think it was a Moxie was the chain of hotels. think certainly when I saw you was talking about getting rid of, they were subtracting a lot of things, but what they did is they put more attention into the communal experience, creating that third place for people to get together because also generational changes, often we're using hotels now to meet people in, to work in. Leidy Klotz (36:05) Okay, interesting. Mm-hmm. James Taylor (36:14) it's just kind of bit more interesting Leidy Klotz (36:14) That's true, yeah. James Taylor (36:16) with to be working from a different type of space than working in a room where you're looking at the four walls of that rather drab hotel room. So let's start to finish up here as well, ⁓ just quick fire questions, is there a quote that kind of guides you or quote you often think about? Leidy Klotz (36:22) You ⁓ I mean, it's not related to this, but more to the effect just, you know, life is 10 % what happens to you and 90 % how you react to it. I find that helpful. Is it? Yeah. Yeah. James Taylor (36:48) It's very stoic, that's a very stoic kind of line there as well. Yeah, yeah, that's like that, that's great. And what about tools or, we haven't really kind of spoken so much about, know, tool apps and things, but is there a tool or an app that you find particularly useful for like the creative work that you do? Obviously you're a writer, you're a researcher as well. Leidy Klotz (37:08) ⁓ It's less about a tool. I mean, it's kind of a lack of a tool or app. I mean, obviously I use word processing. I use AI to help. I mean, all these things, but I also find it really helpful to just force myself to have notebook time every day. ⁓ And again, it's not that I could do everything on a notebook, like a piece of paper and a pen, but that kind of shifting different ways of working often. reveals different ideas. And we spend so much of our time now, obviously staring at a screen. Yeah, sorry. James Taylor (37:40) And are you one of these people that's really into one of the very fancy notebooks? Are you like a Luchterm or a Moleskine? Leidy Klotz (37:49) No, it's like whatever the free thing is that I got at the hotel. I got a bullet notebook once and then I was like, how do you use this thing? I just used it as a normal notebook. But as long as it really it's about the physical act of moving the thing and the ability to just be outside and do it. And then probably transcribing it back and forth is really helpful and just getting away from the screen basically. James Taylor (38:06) Yeah. And is there one book by another author that you've maybe gifted more often or you recommended more often? Leidy Klotz (38:22) ⁓ I've got two. I love books, so you're going to have to indulge me. So one is ⁓ Eduardo Galeano. He's just this brilliant Uruguayan author. And he wrote this book called Soccer and Sun and Shadow. And it's basically how soccer explains the world. But it's very poetic, and ⁓ it's really a fun read. ⁓ I don't know that it has much to do with creativity and innovation other than the fact that he's super creative and innovative. ⁓ And then the one that ⁓ is just right up the alley of your audience is the extent mind by Annie Murphy-Paul. So she's a journalist, I mean the way she wrote it, it seems like she's a professor as she just like went into depth of all the ways that we think outside of our brain. ⁓ And what I tell students, what I tell, I give this to PhD students after they graduate. And I'm like, you don't even, if you, if you have time to read this, it'll be super helpful. If you don't have time to read it, just put it on your desk and use it as an excuse every time you want to go for a walk or go work out because it's like all this evidence that, you know, doing that is so helpful to, to your thinking. ⁓ and so I love that book, The Extended Mind. James Taylor (39:34) Great, that's great, and I haven't heard of that book before, anyone's recommended that, so I'm going to go and check that out, and also the one on soccer, I have a friend that's about to go and travel around ⁓ Italian soccer games to go and experience soccer in Italy as well, so I'm going to recommend that book to him, he'll be very thankful of that book before his trip. If people want to learn more about your work and your research, where's the best place for to go and do that? Leidy Klotz (39:45) okay. Okay. Well, subtract the book has most of the information, you know, all the things we talked about. My parents gave me a good Google name. So L E I D Y K L O T Z. mean, I have a website. I've got another book coming out in April about our relationship with our physical surroundings. Um, and you know, how, how the mind relates to our physical surroundings. Um, and so, um, that's something to look out for too, but you can, you can find out what I'm doing just by just with Google and with my website. Yeah. James Taylor (40:28) but we'll definitely have to have you back on the show again talking about that, that new book as well. I think that would resonate a lot with our audience. Dr. Lydie Klotz, thank you so much for being a guest on the Super Creativity Podcast. The post Why Subtraction Unlocks Better Ideas with Dr. Leidy Klotz #359? appeared first on James Taylor.

How Rest Unlocks Creativity: The Neuroscience of Your Brain - Dr. Joseph Jebelli #357 In this episode of the SuperCreativity Podcast, James Taylor interviews Dr. Joseph Jebelli, neuroscientist and author of The Brain at Rest and In Pursuit of Memory. Together, they explore how rest isn’t laziness but a neural necessity that unlocks creativity, productivity, and mental clarity.Discover the neuroscience behind the brain’s default mode network (DMN), why overwork accelerates aging and burnout, and practical strategies for harnessing rest to spark creative insights. Dr. Jebelli also shares actionable tips on micro-rest practices, the surprising cognitive power of nature, and why doing “nothing” could be the most productive thing you do today.Perfect for entrepreneurs, creatives, leaders, and anyone looking to work smarter—not harder.🎙️ Top 5 Soundbites:“People often succeed in life not despite their inactivity but because of it.” – Dr. Joseph Jebelli“Rest isn’t powering down; it’s your brain switching states and forming new connections.” – Dr. Joseph Jebelli“Nature is full of what psychologists call soft fascinations—things that hold your attention effortlessly and calm the brain.” – Dr. Joseph Jebelli“The more you rest, the sharper and more creative your brain becomes.” – Dr. Joseph JebelliResources and LinksDr. Joseph Jebelli’s Website: drjosephjebelli.comBook: The Brain at RestBook: In Pursuit of MemoryRecommended Read: The Expectation Effect by David Robson Apple Podcast Spotify Podcast Takeaways Rest is a productivity tool: Rest activates the brain’s default mode network, boosting intelligence, memory, and creativity. Burnout rewires the brain: Chronic overwork shrinks the hippocampus, enlarges the amygdala, and accelerates cognitive aging. Micro-rest techniques work: Short breaks, naps, and even just staring into space can enhance problem-solving and creative thinking. Nature fuels creativity: Spending as little as 20 minutes in green or blue spaces significantly improves creativity, memory, and immune health. Cultural mindset shift needed: From hustle culture to embracing rest as a key driver of performance and well-being. In his upcoming book, James Taylor delves into the transformative concept of SuperCreativity™—the art of amplifying your creative potential through collaboration with both humans and machines. Drawing from his experiences speaking in over 30 countries, James combines compelling stories, case studies, and practical strategies to help readers unlock innovation and harness the power of AI-driven tools. This book is a must-read for anyone looking to elevate their creativity and thrive in the modern age of human-machine collaboration. James Taylor is a highly sought-after keynote speaker, often booked months or even years in advance due to his exceptional expertise. Given his limited availability, it’s crucial to contact him early if you’re interested in securing a date or learning how he can enhance your event. Reach out to James Taylor now for an opportunity to bring his unique insights to your conference or team. Enquire Now The Creativity Blueprint Free 3-Part Video Training Series On How To Unlock Your Creative Potential, Break Down Creative Blocks, and Unleash Your Creative GeniusFREE training video shows you how to unlock your creative potential in 5 simple steps. The world’s top creative individuals and organizations use these exact strategies. The 7-Figure Speaker Blueprint FREE training video shows you the ten ways to make $1,000,000 from your speaking. The world’s top professional speakers use these exact strategies.In this first FREE video series, award-winning keynote speaker James Taylor reveals how to become a 7-figure speaker. CHAPTERS Timestamps00:00 – Introduction to Dr. Joseph Jebelli and his work01:32 – Personal story: How overwork led to insights about rest05:07 – The statistics behind burnout and its neurological effects08:29 – The cultural roots of overwork and the Protestant work ethic13:36 – The brain’s default mode network explained17:31 – Why naps grow your brain (literally)20:27 – Creativity, the shower effect, and hypnopompic states24:26 – The importance of green and blue spaces for brain health28:49 – Micro-rest practices for everyday life33:22 – The connection between place, nature, and creativity41:24 – Favorite quotes and reflections on solitude44:09 – Why boredom sparks creativity45:46 – Rituals vs. apps for better rest and productivity47:27 – Book recommendation: The Expectation Effect by David Robson49:00 – How to connect with Dr. Jebelli TRANSCRIPT James Taylor (00:09)Today I’m thrilled to welcome Dr. Joseph Gibelli to the Super Creativity Podcast. Joseph is a neuroscientist with a PhD from University College London, postdoctoral experience at the University of Washington, and a writer who brings scientific depth to real human dilemmas. His first book, In Pursuit of Memory, was shortlisted for the Royal Society Trivedi Science Book Prize and longlisted for the Welcome Book Prize. His latest, The Brain at Rest, is a thoughtful, counter-cultural manifesto. Rest isn’t slacking. It activates our brain’s default mode network, lighting up creativity, memory, insight, and emotional clarity. He reveals how burnout doesn’t just drain us, it ages our brain, thins critical regions, and fuels a silent global health crisis. Whether you’re feeling stuck, burnout or just sinking into your smartphone at night, Joseph’s message is resoundingly clear. What if stepping back is the most creative move you could make? Joseph, welcome to the Super Creativity Podcast. Joseph Jebelli (01:16)Hi James, thanks for having me. James Taylor (01:19)Now, in parts you’ve written deeply about memory, the evolution of the human brain, and now rest, was there a moment, professionally or personally, when you realised that rest wasn’t laziness, but a neural necessity? Joseph Jebelli (01:32)Yeah, so I had quite an interesting journey discovering the neuroscience of rest. So the first reason was really personal. So I witnessed both my mother and father massively overwork and reached the point of burnout to the point of really ⁓ ill health consequences. So my father now lives with major depressive disorder as a result of overwork. My mother has a blood pressure that’s so high that her GP texts almost daily asking for blood pressure. readings. And so I sort of grew up with parents who were incredibly hard workers to the point of burnout. And so it took me a long time to really actually appreciate the importance of rest. And so I myself went through that phase of overwork. So when I was a postdoc at the University of Washington, I’d basically spend all day in the lab doing experiments and mentoring students. And then I would you know, I would finish around six or seven and go straight to a coffee shop and then just sit and work on grants and my first book until like 10 or 11 o’clock at night. And, you know, like, needless to say, it was it was exhausting. And I always felt, you know, I often felt totally wiped out. And it was interesting because I realized I couldn’t sustain that pace indefinitely. And so I started to ease off from my work. And when I started to ease off from my work, these something really astonishing happened. So not only did I feel better, not only did I sleep better, but other, I noticed other cognitive improvements. So like my memory got better, my ability to think clearly improved, my ability to write more fluidly got better. And I actually ended up being more productive than I was when I was just grinding it out all day long. So even though I was doing fewer hours of work every day, I was achieving more. And so I just thought this is really interesting. And then I, so I decided to look into the neuroscience of rest, you know, driven largely by that. And what I discovered is really extraordinary. You know, there is this resting brain network, which as you say, is called the default network. And that network only becomes active when we rest, when we do things that are restful to our brains. And we now know just in the last few years that when you activate your default network with rest, you improve your intelligence. creativity, memory, problem solving abilities, ability to predict the future. It even lowers your risk of developing neurological illnesses like depression and dementia. And so, you know, the message I’m trying to get across in the book is that we have our understanding of work and rest completely upside down. It’s rest, not work, that is the secret to sustained productivity. It’s rest that is the driving force behind all of our cognitive abilities. And as I say in the book, what this new neuroscience is teaching us is that People often succeed in life not despite their inactivity but because of it. James Taylor (04:31)So that almost feels like it’s obviously the opposite end of the hustle culture that we’re living in today as well. It’s saying, you know, just hustle, just kind of keep cranking through there as well. As you were looking into the research of this and you were kind of doing your own research for it. and obviously you’d had the example with your parents, you could see firsthand, but as you kind of looked for the data to kind of support your hypothesis, was there any key stat or data or research that you discovered in that process that made you end, actually, I think I’m onto something here. There’s something that can, it’s not just a gut feeling, it’s actually something that’s really supported by evidence. Joseph Jebelli (05:07)Yeah, absolutely. So in terms of work and overwork, even though working conditions are better today than they were in the past, there’s no doubt about that. When you look at the statistics and you look at the data, we are in a dramatic regression in terms of burnout and overwork. So just to give you a few stats off the top of my head. globally, overwork now kills 745,000 people a year. That’s a 29 % increase since the year 2000. three in five employees now report a lack of interest, motivation and energy. That’s a 38 % increase since 2019. So, you know, we are in a huge regression in terms of burnout and overwork. And when you look at the brain, what this is doing to the brain, it actually thins the frontal cortex in the same way that aging does. It literally makes your brain older than it is. It enlarges a region called the amygdala, which was responsible for our fight or flight. reflex, that’s why overworked people often feel very anxious. It also shrinks the hippocampus, a region really important for learning and memory. And, you the really interesting thing is that when you actually look at what overwork is doing to us psychologically and neurologically, it actually falls into a pattern of really interesting phases. So it starts off with basically dissatisfaction, like you’re not happy with your job. You feel dissatisfied, but it’s kind of a manageable feeling. So you just ignore it. That then moves into cynicism where you just no longer care about your job. It’s just something you’ve got to do. You’ve got to do it to pay the bills. So you just get on with it. That then moves into dehumanization. And that’s the kind of emotional hardening that many people have around their job. That’s what leads to things, a sense of sort of incompetence and productivity guilt. And that then leads to anxiety and depression. And that’s then when many of the neurological symptoms like a thinning frontal cortex and a shrinking hippocampus start to set in. But the really interesting thing about this science is that some incredible longitudinal studies in Sweden have shown that once the symptoms of overwork set in, it takes your brain up to three years to recover. It takes it three years just to get back to that baseline of good cognitive ability. And so, you know, All of the data and the statistics bear this out, that things are getting much worse in terms of our work culture. you alluded to it earlier when you talked about the hustle mindset. We do still have this widespread rampant and increasing problem of a hustle mentality, that it’s somehow an aspirational way to live, that the harder you work, the faster you run, the more you’re going to achieve and the quicker you’re going to get to where you want to get. And it’s just not true. It’s the complete opposite is true. know, rest is the driving force behind sustained long-term productivity and all of your higher cognitive abilities. ⁓ And so, you know, all of the data now bears this out, whether you’re, you know, ⁓ a doctor, a train driver, a student, it doesn’t matter what you’re doing, what task you’re doing, you will always perform better on that task if you rest beforehand, precisely because you’re activating. your brain’s default network, your brain’s resting network. James Taylor (08:29)wondering as well, has there been any, I guess it’s probably the span is too short in terms of where this is starting to be studied, but is there anything in terms of the evolutionary side of this? Because we think about 100 years ago, I was watching a video just a few days ago, it was set in the 19th, was from 1930s or 1940s, and it was talking about the average day of work for someone in management. And I looked at it I thought, if that person had to deal with the same level of stress and the same pace that they have to deal with today, it’s a different thing. I wonder, as it being my research, obviously I realized for the people that living in it now, that having to deal with this kind of change in terms of what we have to do every day, but are we starting to see anything from an evolutionary standpoint that maybe over four or five decades, the human brain starts to adapt and we kind of get used to working at this higher pace? Joseph Jebelli (09:25)Hmm so Sorry So when you look at the history, I think a lot of the overwork mindset that we have, that we’ve basically inherited from the past, a lot of it comes from 16th century Protestant work ethic of just, you know, keep calm, carry on, get on with it. You know, ⁓ this idea that rest is an indulgence, it’s a luxury. It’s something that’s kind of unprincipled, even a bit irresponsible. And that mindset, has carried on right up to the present. We still think of rest as an unprincipled and even irresponsible indulgence, essentially, not as the driving force of our higher cognitive abilities. And I think that’s what’s basically led us into this culture of what I call in the book untrammeled capitalism. So just capitalism with not enough guardrails, not enough regulations. And we have made some progress. There’s the five-day workday. there’s the five day work week instead of the seven day work week. There’s progress like, we no longer have asbestos in hospitals and people have to wear their seat belts and you can’t smoke in hospitals. There are cultural landmarks, but the fact is when you look at the science, we haven’t gone anywhere near enough, far enough when it comes to work and overwork. And as I said, all the data shows were actually going in the wrong direction. you when you just have to look at like the four day work week, for instance, where they did a huge trial of that in Iceland, and they found that productivity either stayed the same or actually improved. And I think, you know, as a result of that large trial, they’re now about to try one, a four day work week in Japan as well. Japan’s really interesting. They actually have a word for working to death in Japan. They call it Kuroshi. And they estimate it’s responsible for 20,000 deaths a year. So, you know, to come back to your question, you know, You know, there’s there have been some some areas of progress, but we are we are completely moving backwards when it comes to overwork. And I think a lot of that has to do with, again, mainly the cultural mindset of thinking of rest as an indulgence. But more than anything, just a complete lack of understanding about the science of rest. You know, we don’t understand until relatively recently, like what actually is rest for your brain? Like, what is it? Are you just powering down? Because I think that’s how basically people have thought of it. They thought of rest for the brain in the same way that we think of rest for a muscle, that it’s just powering down. But it’s not, it’s switching states, it’s moving into a different network, it’s activating the default network. Because the really interesting thing about the default network is that it works in competition with another network that we call the executive network, and that’s the work network. That’s the network that’s active when there’s a task to be done. So whenever you’re at your desk and you’re leaning into a cognitively demanding task, You can feel when the executive network is activated because it’s tiring, it’s exhausting. You start to mind wander and drift away because you’re not really that interested in what you’re doing because it’s so mentally exhausting. When that network is activated, your default network is very quiet because they work in competition with each other. But interestingly, the executive network only occupies about 5 % of your brain, whereas the default network occupies 20 % of the brain. We need to understand that when you rest, this network, this 20 % of your brain large resting network is not only firing up, but that’s the thing that’s improving your memory and creativity and giving you all of these insights. There’s a reason why you have your best thoughts when you’re just alone in the shower, not really thinking about much, or when you just go for a walk in a park and you just let your mind drift. It’s because your default network is busily working on all of these problems. And so I think that’s, that’s that to me, that’s the biggest reason that we misunderstand rest. We haven’t understood what the actual underlying neuroscience of rest is and what it’s doing to our brains. James Taylor (13:36)So taking from a kind of the neural network standpoint and from a chemical standpoint, you speak about this idea of the default mode network and it kind of lights up essentially when you’re doing nothing. So for listeners that maybe unfamiliar, what’s actually going on in the brain? Like if I was to be looking at a scan of the brain or the chemistry of the brain, what is actually happening when that default mode network is going on? Joseph Jebelli (14:06)So a couple of things. The first thing that happens is that blood flow increases, like to a huge extent, to the default network and also to the frontal lobe, which is the seat of your higher faculties. So whenever you think of things like human attention and decision making, our personalities, ⁓ many of our higher faculties are found as a result of ⁓ activity in the frontal lobe. And a lot of the default network is actually found in the frontal lobe. even though it actually spans out across the brain. So the first thing that happens is that blood flow increases and that delivers more oxygen to your nerve cells. And as a result, they basically become a lot more active. So these are electrical cells that fire electrical impulses. And when they become more active, that’s basically, that’s what underlies your ability to think, to think clearly. And at the same time, they form new connections as well. neurons are covered in what we call synapses. I’m sure everyone is familiar with what synapses are, but when you activate your default network with REST, you can actually increase the number of synapses on neurons, increase the number of synaptic contacts with other neurons. So it’s quite literally forming new connections, which is then underpinning your ability to come up with new creative insights. it’s a neurophysiological, but also a neurochemical and a neuroelectrical phenomena that… is allowing you to come up with all of these new thoughts. suppose that’s really what’s happening. I suppose that’s really what we’re happening when you look at the brain scans. it’s worth noting as well that even though the default network, it was discovered in 2001, but it’s only the last few years that we’ve really started to understand it. But the really interesting thing about studying the default network is for many years, neuroscientists ignored it because they thought it was just meaningless background noise. So what they would often do is they would put someone into a brain scanner and they would say, okay, we’re interested in finding out what certain regions of the brain are doing when you perform a certain task. So they would say, we want you to memorize a long list of words. We want you to, or we want you to name as many words beginning with the letter K. So it would be any type of sort of cognitively demanding task. And then they would look for the brain regions that light up. And at the time there was this, you when they were just, when the people were just lying down in the brain scanners before the experiment started, so before they had to perform the work orientated task, when they were just relaxing and chilling out, the default network resting brain signal was screaming with activity. And it was, it was so powerful that neuroscientists would actually delete that signal just in order to see more closely what the brain was doing when we perform a task. And again, I think that comes back to this cultural attitude of like, well, you know, there’s work and then there’s, and then there’s nothing. There’s nothing else. And so they ignored it. They exactly, the void exactly. So, but it’s only recently they’ve actually decided, okay, we really need to figure out what this background signal is. So yeah, I mean, essentially your neurons are becoming much more active, forming new connections. And also I should say as well, getting physically bigger. James Taylor (17:11)The void. Joseph Jebelli (17:31)in terms of your actual brain. So we know for instance that when you take a 30 minute nap every day, and this was a discovery made only a few years ago by an incredible neuroscientist at University College London called Victoria Garfield. People who take 30 minute naps every day literally have bigger brains than people who don’t. And the difference is really significant. We’re talking about 15 cubic centimeters and to put that into context, that’s the volume of a small plum. And so when you just pause and think about You know, the millions of neurons and synapses and connections and cognitive abilities that are contained within the volume of a small plum, it’s huge. you know, rest, it’s not just activating your default network. It’s actually growing the network. It’s growing the size of your brain itself. It’s making your brain chunkier and healthier and more resilient to a whole host of things, including neurodegenerative diseases and age-related cognitive decline. ⁓ So there’s all of these… sort of concrete neurobiological things happening, know, without us even being aware really that they’re happening until you start resting more and then you realize, I feel a lot better and sharper. James Taylor (18:45)I mean, what you were saying also about those studies that were done where the scientists would almost, the researcher would kind of disregard the void, let’s say, or whatever the space was, kind of makes me think a little bit of, in jazz music, where I think it was Louis Armstrong, or maybe it was Miles Davis, was saying, actually, the thing is the space, that is the thing. And, you know, we think of the notes, but actually, we don’t think of the space, or we think of… the stars for example, we think space or we think a table, actually most of this table is the gaps, is the space between the materials as well, so it’s interesting like your book is really kind of focused on that space. One, you’ll be able to correct me on this because I know for years when I’ve been on stages and I’ve spoken about this move that happens, from what we call the incubation stage in creativity to the insight, the aha moment, the light bulb moment. And I often talk about… that shower moment, I ask audiences how many of you get your best ideas in the shower and there’s a large number or sometimes it’s in the late evening when people are more relaxed for example and I’ve always had this line that I talk about for the shower thing in the morning and now that I’m actually getting to speak to a proper neuroscientist I can find out if I’m actually saying this right or if this is complete bunk what I’ve been saying up to this point which is I was always led to believe that In the morning, your brain is fuzzy and it’s unwound, so you’re open to unconventional thoughts. Alpha waves are rippling through your brain, directing your attention inwards to remote associations that emanate from the right hemisphere. Is that correct or have I been talking bunk for a few years in terms of actually what’s going on in the brain here? Joseph Jebelli (20:27)No, no, that’s ⁓ can you say can you say that last bit again? James Taylor (20:30)So ⁓ the line I’ve often used is, brain is fuzzy, it’s unwound, we’re open to unconventional thoughts, alpha waves are rippling through our brain, directing our attention inwards to remote associations that emanate from the right hemisphere. Joseph Jebelli (20:45)Yeah, no that, yeah, that doesn’t, that sounds fairly accurate to me. No, no, no. James Taylor (20:49)It’s not completely wrong. But the reason I mention that as well is I know that West Point Military Academy, one of the techniques that they teach there is a technique called preloading, where they tell people about two hours before you go to sleep at night, let’s say if you’re thinking about a problem at work or if you’re in the military, for example, and a challenge you’re trying to figure out, they say ask yourself a question two hours before you go to sleep at night and then just forget about it. And your brain overnight when you’re relaxed and just sleeping, it of works and that’s often the reason we get these aha moments in the morning as well. So that kind of relaxation, just kind of letting it go, know, letting it move and just let your brain do some of those, because we think the brain’s not actually doing anything at night when we’re sleeping and I guess that’s not correct. Joseph Jebelli (21:25)Hmm. Mmm. No, yeah, exactly. Yeah, well, it’s, really like the way you put it as well when you described it as unwound because, you know, when you wake up, your brain is in a phase that we call the hypnopompic phase. So that’s the phase basically between sleep and full wakefulness. You also have a term that people are probably a bit more familiar with, which is the hypnagogic phase. And that’s the phase just before you go to sleep, just before like, you know, the phase between wakefulness and actually falling asleep. And interestingly, we now know that both those phases, just before you go to sleep and just when you wake up, are periods of really strong default network activity. Like sleep itself is a period of high default network activity, but those phases as well are really important for it. And that’s why I say in the book, you know, before you go to bed, Don’t please, please for the love of God, don’t just sit doom scrolling on your phone before you go to bed, because that’s not going to activate your default network. The artificial light from the phone is really bad for you. Just as a quick aside, we now think one of the main reasons that cancer is going up so much among young people is because of the artificial light just before people go to bed, because it’s blocking melatonin, the sleep hormone. And we now know that melatonin has a really powerful anti-cancer effect. It essentially acts as a tumor suppressor. ⁓ So don’t look at your phone because, you know, that’s, it feels restful because it’s a distraction from what you were just doing, but it’s not, it’s a trick. It’s masquerading as rest. All looking at your phone does is it trains your distraction. It doesn’t, it doesn’t allow your brain, you know, the thing that allows your brain rest is the things that allow ⁓ deep inner self-reflective self, self, crucially self-generated thought. So instead of doing that, know, just stare into space for a few minutes and let your mind wander. you know, even just reading a few pages of like a fiction book that you really enjoy, let’s say something that isn’t cognitively taxing, something that isn’t going to activate your executive network. ⁓ You know, those are the sorts of things you should do, really restful things before you go to sleep. And again, in the morning, don’t just hop on your phone, actually spend a few minutes just staring into space, stare out of the window. you know, stare at a mark, you know, on your ceiling. You’re like a little, you know, it doesn’t matter what it is. Just let your brain actually decompress. Let it do seemingly nothing. Just stare into space. It feels like you’re doing nothing, but your default network is really active and it’s doing so much. But yeah, unwound is, yeah, I like that. That’s a very good way of saying it. James Taylor (24:26)I think there was another way I use on when there was another a few years ago I was doing an event in Stockholm in Sweden and I was staying at this fantastic hotel which is you might know it called the Grand Hotel it’s where the Nobel Prize winners stay the night before they’re going to collect their prizes and so I’m having breakfast there in the morning and having coffee and who should walk past me but John Cleese, the British famous comedian. So I actually went up to him, he’s obviously a big fan of his work and ⁓ we got talking, we actually talked about creativity because he did a talk a few years ago where he talked about how, and he was talking about in relation to comedy and writing comedy, he said, you know, our brain is like a camera lens. Joseph Jebelli (24:53)⁓ wow. James Taylor (25:12)and sometimes you need it to be really focused in focus but often when you have to do more creative expansive work you actually want to purposely defocus the lens you know that kind of relaxation or defocusing of the lens and one of the things you mentioned these two foot the hip I probably got this wrong hypnopompic and hypnogolic face that probably got these wrong but yeah and it reminded me there was a was a study done a few years ago I think it was a professor at Harvard where he Joseph Jebelli (25:30)Hypnopompic, yeah. Yeah, hypnopompic and hypnagogic. James Taylor (25:41)took comedians and jazz musicians under brain scans and he looked at the bit of the brain that they were able to switch off and it’s the bit that I’m gonna probably massacre the way I’m saying this but it’s basically the bit that all of us have which says don’t say that you shouldn’t really say that you know it’s a little bit of the pause that almost but comedians and jazz musicians are actually able to switch this part off and it’s a train, it’s something that they’ve been trained to do and if you know a lot of jazz musicians, my wife’s a jazz musician and they said to do what they do well they actually have to feel relaxed. in the moment to get that sense of flow in what they’re doing to kind of, so it doesn’t feel, they don’t feel that tenseness in that executive part you were just talking about. They have that sense even though they’re in front of people, there’s a confidence and that allows parts of their brain to maybe switch off and to switch on as well. Joseph Jebelli (26:39)Yeah, absolutely. mean, overthinking, you know, is not good for the default network, obviously. And as you said, it leads to feelings of anxiety and apprehension. And, you know, all of those things block your cognitive abilities. ⁓ And so, you know, it is basically about, ⁓ you know, seemingly switching the brain off. I mean, I I I often think of one really interesting study where they found that they got a group of people to perform like a repetitive task, like a really boring work orientated repetitive task. And they found that the people who were allowed to just, you know, feel like they’re switching off and let their minds wander, they always performed better on that task. But interestingly, even when they did that to the point where their mind wandering actually like hindered their performance on the task. So they had their heads in the clouds for just a little bit too long. It had actually affected the performance on the task itself. Even then, it still ramped up their creativity. Their scores of creativity were much higher in all of the cognitive tests for the time being and in the long run. So that’s the interesting thing. Even if you feel a bit guilty about letting you. letting your mind rest and doing nothing and you feel like, it’s actually going to hamper my ability maybe in the here and now. It’s not, it’s still going to be much better for your brain in the long run. And so there’s, know, there’s, it’s very sort of counterintuitive and I think it’s something that the more we learn about it, the more counterintuitive and like fascinating it becomes. James Taylor (28:23)Now in the book you obviously, you’re not a proponent of doom scrolling and you say there is better ways to rest that brain. In the book you talk about walks, naps, baths, other things as well. ⁓ What have you found has been maybe in your own life, in your own creative work that you do as a research and a writer, what do you find really works for you that allows that brain to really go to rest? Joseph Jebelli (28:49)So I think one of the most important things and it’s a small easy thing to ⁓ start as well. It’s just to take ⁓ many more breaks throughout the day. I now, know, every hour I take a 10 minute break. And I often also practice the Pomodoro technique where you have 25 minutes of work and then five minutes breaks, five minutes of rest. And it’s really important in that time to do nothing, just to go for a walk, to sit by a window and let your mind wander. Or even you can listen to an audio book if you find it restful, you can read something that you find restful. But I think just bringing in many more breaks throughout the day is a really good way to activate the default network and to get it activated throughout the day because we’re so used to just sitting down in this deep focus mode and working for such extensive periods of time that we ignore the resting brain. So I incorporate… many more breaks throughout my day. I spend a lot more time sort of just, yeah, just like gazing out of the window, going on walks in, you know, in green spaces. That’s really important. There was a huge study done recently on 20,000 people by a research called Matthew White. I think it was at Exeter University where he basically found that, you know, about 20 minutes a day. of being in a green space is the sweet spot for improved psychological and neurological health. And we know now that when you spend time in green spaces, your brain waves actually shift. They shift from very busy and anxious beta waves into much more calming and even meditative theta waves. And that happens because nature is basically full of what psychologists call soft fascinations. So these are things that hold your attention in a really effortless way. There’s a reason why when you’re in a forest and you’re listening to the rustling of the leaves or you’re on a beach and you’re just staring at the lapping blue waves, there’s a reason that holds your attention in a very effortless way. And especially when you contrast that to what psychologists call hard fascinations, that’s things like your smartphone, like LED billboards, train announcements, overbearing bosses and… deadlines and all these things and these things are draining your attentional resources and causing cognitive fatigue. But more than that, when you’re in a green space, we now know that plants actually release this chemical called phytoncides and these are basically oils that protect trees from bacteria. But when you’re in a green space, you breathe phytoncides in and it has an incredible effect on your immune system. can actually, it can raise your immune systems. ability to fight off infections by 40%. Even just being in a green space has been shown to increase creativity by 50 % and memory recall by 20%. Incredibly, if you’re in a brain scanner as well, and you’re literally just shown a picture of a green space versus a city, your default network will come online and you’ll start to get some of the cognitive benefits of that. you know, our brains are craving nature in a far more profound way than we’ve previously recognized. And so what else do do? Well, you I spend time exercising as well because active rest is also really beneficial for the brain. Even gentle exercise. So we now know that only four minutes of gentle exercise a day is enough to grow a bigger brain and a healthier default network. Also finding micro moments of play throughout your day is really good for the brain. Because when you think about play, I mean, what is play? It’s unstructured, it’s imaginative. Crucially, it’s task off rather than task on. And these are all things that the default network thrives on. So, find those moments of play throughout your day where you don’t take things so seriously and you can have fun. And I suppose just leaving work at work as well, like I’ve tried to get better at doing that. We all take work with us now. all, I mean, many people respond to work emails on the weekends and it’s about. creating a clearer demarcation between work and rest because they’re not in opposition with each other. Rest is the thing that is the fuel for your work and it’s the thing that’s going to lead to much better long-term productivity. So yeah, there’s lots of tools and techniques and different ways to rest. James Taylor (33:22)These are great. And as you’re saying, obviously with the color green, I remember a few years ago, was studies at the University of Berlin and the University of British Columbia, they looked at which colors kind of really are best for creativity. And that color green was the one that both those kind of studies found. And ⁓ I was speaking at event recently for one of the tribal nations in the US and we were talking about this idea of how the place in which you create has an effect upon what you create as well and David Byrne, the musician’s done a very famous TED talk about that as well in terms of music, how different spaces affect your ability to create. And I was saying ⁓ to these tribal leaders at the time, I said, we know In Europe, we have this idea of the genius loci. The Romans came up with the places themselves have their own creative genius. This idea that the individual is the creative genius is quite a modern notion. You know, it’s a Renaissance idea, basically. But up until that point, it was always felt that we were vessels for creative ideas, inspiration, it can literally flowed through us. And as I’m talking to these tribal leaders, they’re saying, yeah, we’ve known this for like centuries, you know, we, when we talk about a lake or a ⁓ mountain range, we talk about it having that effect, it has this kind of genius loci as well and Joseph Jebelli (34:35)Hahaha James Taylor (34:47)And so, and I know that maybe it’s just the sciences, we’re just finally kind of catching up to something that’s been like the Japanese, I they have forest bathing, which has happened for a long time where they kind of go into the spaces. maybe we’re just finally catching up. One thing I am interested to know though, as someone who spends a lot of time in the Middle East, when I’ve spoken about this idea of like the green spaces, it hasn’t quite ⁓ connected in the same way with some of the audiences there. something I’m interested to know, this is studies I’ve seen have always been focused on the Western countries and Europe and America. I would be interested to know if those societies are from drier climates, whether that green thing also does the same to their brains. I don’t know if I don’t know if any of those kind of studies have been done if it has a there’s differences maybe it’s blue the ocean and the water is a bigger thing for them. Joseph Jebelli (35:33)Hmm Yeah, that’s really interesting. Because we know that obviously different cultures, you know, practice rest in different ways and certain cultures, some cultures take rest more seriously than others. Like we know, for instance, that rest is thankfully taken more seriously in Europe than it is in America. So there’s no doubt about that. But in terms of, and you know, at the same time, you know, Japan, I think sadly has a bit more of the American corporate overwork kind of mentality. So there are differences, you know, in terms of culture, in terms of the underlying biology. Even people from like a drier climate will respond in the same way to fight inside exposure from trees and, you know, from being in green spaces. at the same time, you know, the nature thing is interesting because it doesn’t necessarily, you don’t necessarily have to be in a forest. So the soft fascinations and the things that help change your brain waves and your brain chemistry, you know, it can be from being in a beautiful canyon or on a desert. It’s, you know, there are still soft fascinations there. There are still things that are going to change your brain, your brain’s neurochemistry. know, even though, though, as you said, the colour green and being around greenery is really important. We know for instance that there’s also what we call blue prescriptions now as well, as well as green prescriptions, because the colour blue has actually been found to change the neurochemistry of your brain as well. That also shifts your brain waves and changes your brain’s chemistry in a really positive, beneficial way. And so there are even researchers now looking at the neurological health of people who live on the beach or live on the coast compared to people that live more inland. James Taylor (37:17)The scraping, yeah. Joseph Jebelli (37:38)So I think the main message is that it’s nature, like, you overall, that is really beneficial for our brains. It’s precisely because it allows us, it allows true rest for the brain. And, you know, because what we’re getting when we don’t embrace nature in that way is, as I said, things that masqueraders rest, like your smartphone, like binge watching your favorite series on Netflix, you know, being in this sort chronic urban existence where everything is very, very fast paced and very hustle and bustle. And you you can still find restful things to do in that environment, obviously, but it’s, you know, I think it goes without question. It’s harder basically. So no, I mean, yeah, it would, think that there needs to be more research done on like the geographical differences and like cultural differences. But I have no doubt that James Taylor (38:25)Yeah. Joseph Jebelli (38:38)The neurophysiological effects of things like fight insides and exposure to greenery ⁓ and blue spaces, it’s so profound, the effect it has on your brain that it doesn’t matter if you live in the Middle East in a very dry ⁓ landscape, it’s still gonna help your brain. James Taylor (38:57)funny because when often when I’m speaking to more to corporate audiences and I’ll mention something like this you just took which sounds like a very soft kind of woo type of topic about having this relationship with nature and and the number of people that come up to me afterwards saying, I’m so glad you mentioned this because, know, this is, and they’ll tell you their personal relationship with nature and how they’ve maybe done something in their office or their work day as well. So I think it’s maybe this is a topic that’s in the same way that maybe we talked about emotional intelligence a few years ago that became more of a thing or resilience and maybe this is now we’re kind of moving into this space our relationship with nature. So your previous books have also covered memory. Joseph Jebelli (39:35)Hmm. James Taylor (39:38)This book is really covering the brain at rest and what that does for us in terms of our clarity, our creativity, our resilience as well. Where’s your research going next? I’m wondering, is the next book gonna be on how to optimize our brain chemistry to do the like hustle work? Like are you gonna go completely in the opposite direction? Where are you going next? Joseph Jebelli (39:51)Mm-hmm. Yeah, that really would be a sea change, wouldn’t it? ⁓ Well, I can definitely say a firm categorical no to that. ⁓ I’m very anti-overwork and very pro-rest for all the reasons that we’ve discussed. The next book, you know, I haven’t given too much thought about the next book. So this one’s just come out, talking about it. ⁓ far and wide wherever I can. ⁓ Yeah, I think as well, know, ⁓ having a bit of a rest myself, I suppose, because there was always a kind of interesting sort of irony and paradox to ⁓ trying to be more restful whilst writing a book. But I still managed it by basically just being more intentional about my rest. And as I said, having more breaks throughout the day and practicing all of the tools and techniques that I talk about in the book. James Taylor (40:39)⁓ Joseph Jebelli (40:59)But yeah, at the moment I’m promoting the book, but at the same time thoroughly trying to enact the message of the book with more rest. At least for the time being, we’ve just had a baby boy as well, so I’m taking some paternity leave as well. But yeah, when I know what the next book is, I’ll certainly let you know. James Taylor (41:24)Right, so just kind of final quick fire questions as we start to finish up here as well. ⁓ Is there a quote that maybe you reflect on a little bit more often, or something that maybe you keep kind of returning to thinking about this quote? Joseph Jebelli (41:38)A quote from something that I’ve written in the book. Yeah. James Taylor (41:41)Maybe not to say something, but maybe a quote from another writer, another thinker, or a scientist that something maybe you often kind of return to, you’re thinking a lot about just now perhaps. Joseph Jebelli (41:56)Yeah, that’s- often think of the ⁓ I’m a fan of the Henry David Thoreau, I love to be alone, I never found the companion that was so companionable as solitude. I do quite like that and I think about that often because I have a chapter in my book about solitude and all of the cognitive benefits that can come from actually having some alone time. You know, crucially when it’s chosen, when it’s voluntary alone time. Because that’s a period of not only great default network activity, but a period when you can have a true self-generated inner thought. ⁓ And I think that’s something that we’re sort of slowly losing. ⁓ You know, there’s kind of a heritage to rest that we’re losing. You know, I remember speaking to, ⁓ I was speaking to this really interesting psychologist, Charles Ferniehoe, for the book. He’s written some really interesting books. And he was saying how his daughter, you know, she’s in the garden, but she’s often on a screen and he has to take it away. And he was saying, you know, he was like, you know, he’s saying, you know, when we grew up, you would just sit in the garden and stare at the trees. And I, know, that’s certainly how it was with me as well. think smartphones and all of that, it was, came around really when I was in my twenties. So, and I think, I just think, you know, there’s that quote on solitude, that idea of just enjoying your own company and your own thoughts and just being alone in nature. to have that inner self-reflection. That’s something I think about more and more because I think with the rise of digital distractions and social media and the kind of digital culture that we’re in and seems to just be amplifying, I think we are losing that more and more. that’s, you know, that heritage of rest, that ability just to sit in the garden, sit in the park and just let your mind wander and stare at the trees. It’s something that we need to return to more now than ever before. James Taylor (44:09)Yeah, this idea of, I know, I remember a few years ago going to Walden Pond, you know, I think with it, Rhea Thurow wrote that book as well. you can, and the first thing immediately came to mind was, God, this must have been really boring at the time. You know, you were just, there’s nothing to do. They were just kind of going, you know, just going there and sitting. And I think, you know, we think about this word boredom in a negative context, but actually I think it’s quite a powerful thing to do because, know, Joseph Jebelli (44:17)Hmm. You James Taylor (44:38)having that space where you don’t have the distractions just to let the mind wander that you were talking about earlier, to think and to perhaps come up with original thoughts as well, something that isn’t coming in from other places, social media, the media, other places as well as, yes, maybe that’s a boredom. Joseph Jebelli (44:56)Yeah, well, if boredom is really interesting, should chat to Dr. Anna Lemke. She’s, she’s written some really interesting things about boredom and how it is a catalyst for creativity and how you should, you should embrace boredom because again, they’ve done studies showing that when you’re bored, it not only makes you more creative, interestingly, it makes you more charitable as well, which, was, which was a big surprise. Cause you look for more meaningful things to do afterwards. And part of that more meaningful search is also to be more charitable. So yeah, there’s a lot to be said for boredom. James Taylor (45:31)Amazing, amazing. What is one, ⁓ we talk about being anti-tech, but I mean not completely anti-tech here, but is there a tool or an app that you find particularly useful in the work you do as a researcher and as a writer? Joseph Jebelli (45:46)⁓ Not an app. ⁓ I’m quite anti the apps. So I, I mean, I think I sort of, I mentioned some of the apps in my book that are supposed to help with productivity, like one called Forest, where you’re supposed to be more productive by growing virtual trees, which I just think is completely nuts. ⁓ And all of these apps that’s, you know, supposedly streamline your work and make you more productive when in actual fact, they just make you end up doing more work and spending more time on your phone. It’s like more screen time, essentially. ⁓ So there’s not really an app. I sort of I try and spend as little time. I only spend time on on my smartphone when I really need to now just because of how bad it is for our brains. and our resting brain in particular. So not a nap. think I’m more a fan of like the techniques side of things like the Pomodoro technique, your 25 minutes work, five minutes rest or practicing things like taking an extra 10 minutes every hour, know, having a 30 minute nap every day, getting 20 minutes in a green space every day, you know, spending like… upwards of five minutes when you’re in the hypnopompic and hypnagogic phase of sleep, mind wandering. So it’s more about knowing when to… rituals, yes, that’s what I’m looking for, rituals, more about rituals. James Taylor (47:11)rituals. Yeah, yeah. And if there was one book you would recommend, you’re going to have links to your own book here, but if there’s one book by another author that you often gifted more often than others or you kind of go back to more than others, what would that book be? Joseph Jebelli (47:27)That’s a really good question. There are so many. There are so many. It’s really tricky. One of my favorite books recently has been David Robson’s The Expectation Effect. Really, really interesting guy who ⁓ talks all about how, you know, often when you expect things to happen, that expectation in itself leads to the cognitive ability to actually achieve what you want to achieve. It’s a kind of cognitive… ⁓ like the cognitive side of the placebo effect in many ways. But it’s really interesting because the brain is essentially a prediction machine. know, we’re always basically, the brain is constantly scanning its environment for patterns and to figure out what maybe I’m going to say at the end of this sentence. And so expectations come into that so much, even when students, when teachers expect, ⁓ great things from their students. When they have higher expectations of them, they perform better. So it’s a really interesting neurocognitive phenomenon that hasn’t really been explored before and he explores it beautifully in that book. James Taylor (48:40)almost sounds like the science of people talk about manifestation or you know going into the mirror every day and saying imagining like these are the five things I’m gonna achieve in my life so great so we’ll put a link to that book as well. ⁓ If people want to learn more about you and you’re writing your books, you have multiple books now, where’s the best place to go and do that? Joseph Jebelli (49:00)The best place is to go to my website actually, just drjosephjubely.com. ⁓ You can see my books, you can see any upcoming like speaking events. You can also contact me directly there as well. I try my best to reply to everyone who contacts me. That’s the best place. I’m not on social media. I might eventually go on social media. I’m very, very hesitant. But for the time being, the website is the best place. James Taylor (49:30)Well, Joseph Gibelli, thank you for being a guest on the Super Creativity Podcast. Joseph Jebelli (49:35)Thank you, James. S The post How Rest Unlocks Creativity: The Neuroscience of Your Brain – Dr. Joseph Jebelli #357 appeared first on James Taylor.

Why Your Team Isn't Creative? How to Build Innovation #356 Are you trying to foster innovation, but your team meetings end up being repetitive and uninspired? It’s a common challenge for leaders: you have a room full of smart people, but unlocking their collective creative genius feels just out of reach. If you’re ready to move beyond stagnant brainstorming sessions and drive real results, you’re in the right place.We’ve distilled the key insights from a powerful conversation with Dr. Amy Climer, a leading expert on team creativity and author of Deliberate Creative Teams. Drawing from her appearance on the Super Creativity Podcast, this guide breaks down her proven framework for building highly innovative teams. You’ll discover the three critical elements every team needs—Purpose, Dynamics, and Process—and learn actionable strategies, like using “creative abrasion,” to transform your team’s culture and output.Get ready to learn not just why innovation matters, but how to deliberately cultivate it.🎙️ Top 5 Soundbites:On Intentionality: “If you want to be creative, if you want to be innovative, you have to be intentional about it. I say it all the time: Be deliberate to be creative. It will not happen by accident.”On Productive Conflict: “We need what’s called ‘creative abrasion’—the ability to disagree about the work. If everyone in the meeting says ‘that looks fine’ but complains in the hallway, that’s not helping anybody.”On Problem-Solving: “Many teams jump to solutions without deeply understanding the problem. Research shows that if you just spend five minutes clarifying the issue, you can get dramatically better results.”On a Common Misconception: “I’ve had CEOs say, ‘I don’t want my team to be creative, I just want them to be innovative.’ They see creativity as frivolous, but true creativity is about generating novelty that is valuable.”On Making Time for Innovation: “Teams always say ‘time’ is their biggest barrier. But are you still doing things you no longer need to? We all have ‘antiquated bureaucratic remnants’—like a report no one reads—that we can let go of to create space for new ideas.” Apple Podcast Spotify Podcast Takeaways Innovation Requires a Three-Part Alignment. Successful creative teams don't happen by accident. They require the deliberate alignment of three key elements: a clear Team Purpose (the 'why'), healthy Team Dynamics (the 'who' and 'how' of interaction), and an effective Creative Process (the 'what' and 'when' of doing the work). When one of these is missing, innovation falters. Embrace 'Creative Abrasion,' Not Relationship Conflict. Productive teams need to engage in task-based conflict, which Dr. Climer calls "creative abrasion." This is the healthy debate and disagreement about the work itself. It's crucial to foster an environment where ideas can be challenged without it becoming personal, as relationship conflict is always destructive to creativity. Don't Solve the Wrong Problem: Clarify First. Teams often rush to generate solutions before they fully understand the problem. Dr. Climer highlights that even spending just five minutes clarifying the challenge, asking questions, and digging deeper can significantly improve the quality and relevance of the final outcome. Psychological Safety is Non-Negotiable. For creative abrasion and honest feedback to occur, a foundation of psychological safety is essential. Team members must feel safe enough to speak up, challenge ideas, and take risks without fear of punishment or humiliation. It's the bedrock upon which all healthy team dynamics are built. Make Time for Innovation by 'Exnovating' the Unnecessary. The most common barrier to creativity is a perceived lack of time. Dr. Climer advises teams to actively look for "antiquated bureaucratic remnants"—outdated processes, reports, or meetings that no longer add value. By strategically removing this old work (exnovation), you create the space needed for new, innovative thinking. Creativity is a Skill, Not Just an Artistic Talent. A major misconception leaders have is confusing creativity with artistic ability. Creativity in a business context is the skill of generating novel and valuable ideas. It is a practical, learnable process that can be applied to any field, from mechanical engineering to marketing. In his upcoming book, James Taylor delves into the transformative concept of SuperCreativity™—the art of amplifying your creative potential through collaboration with both humans and machines. Drawing from his experiences speaking in over 30 countries, James combines compelling stories, case studies, and practical strategies to help readers unlock innovation and harness the power of AI-driven tools. This book is a must-read for anyone looking to elevate their creativity and thrive in the modern age of human-machine collaboration. James Taylor is a highly sought-after keynote speaker, often booked months or even years in advance due to his exceptional expertise. Given his limited availability, it’s crucial to contact him early if you’re interested in securing a date or learning how he can enhance your event. Reach out to James Taylor now for an opportunity to bring his unique insights to your conference or team. Enquire Now The Creativity Blueprint Free 3-Part Video Training Series On How To Unlock Your Creative Potential, Break Down Creative Blocks, and Unleash Your Creative GeniusFREE training video shows you how to unlock your creative potential in 5 simple steps. The world’s top creative individuals and organizations use these exact strategies. The 7-Figure Speaker Blueprint FREE training video shows you the ten ways to make $1,000,000 from your speaking. The world’s top professional speakers use these exact strategies.In this first FREE video series, award-winning keynote speaker James Taylor reveals how to become a 7-figure speaker. CHAPTERS Podcast Episode Timestamps: Dr. Amy Climer on Building Innovative Teams(00:08) Introduction to Dr. Amy Climer and her work.(01:16) Dr. Climer’s personal journey into creativity research, starting in high school.(03:23) The purpose behind her “Deliberate Creative Team Scale” – measuring team behaviours, not just personality.(04:22) Introduction to the Deliberate Creative Team model: the three essential elements of Purpose, Dynamics, and Process.(06:17) A deep dive into Team Purpose and the need for enough space within a goal to innovate.(08:21) Explaining Team Dynamics, including trust, psychological safety, and the role of conflict.(08:52) Breaking down the Team Creative Process, using Creative Problem Solving as an example.(11:41) The power of clarifying the problem first, even for just five minutes.(14:55) Discussing productive conflict and the concept of “Creative Abrasion” from the work of Jerry Hirschberg at Nissan.(23:02) The most common barrier to creativity that teams report: a lack of time.(23:51) How to overcome the time barrier by removing “antiquated bureaucratic remnants” (or ‘exnovating’ old tasks).(29:47) Dr. Climer’s personal story of letting go of her podcast to create space for new innovation.(30:30) A teacher who personally influenced her approach to creativity.(34:02) The biggest misunderstanding leaders have: separating “fluffy” creativity from “serious” innovation.(35:30) The myth that creativity will just happen by accident, and her core message: “Be deliberate to be creative.”(39:37) The single most impactful action leaders can take: rethinking and redesigning their team meetings.(41:03) A creative tool Dr. Climer developed: “Climer Cards” to facilitate deeper conversations.(44:30) Dr. Climer’s book recommendation for personal creativity: The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron.(45:34) How to connect with Dr. Amy Climer online. TRANSCRIPT James Taylor (00:08)Dr. Amy Climer teaches teams and organizations how to increase their creativity so they can maximize innovation. She works with forward thinking organizations such as the Mayo Clinic, Stanford University, and the US Department of Homeland Security. Amy is the author of the bestselling book, Deliberate Creative Teams, How to Lead for Innovative Results. She is also the host of another fantastic website which you've got to check out called the Deliberate Creative Podcast. where she shares practical advice and strategies to help leaders build innovative teams. Amy has a PhD in leadership and change and is a certified speaking professional, CSP. Please welcome to the Super Creativity Podcast, Dr. Amy Climer Amy Climer, Ph.D. (00:57) Thank you, it's so good to be here, James. James Taylor (01:00) So I love, obviously, there's a huge amount of synergy with the work that you do and the listeners for this show as well. But I want to know, just take us right back to the start, what first drew you to creativity research and was there a kind of personal moment that set you on this path? Amy Climer, Ph.D. (01:16) been very curious about creativity, honestly, probably since high school. I remember I was the friend who if one of my friends said, no, I'm not creative. I can't draw. And I would just be like, yes, you can. It's just about practice. And you just have to apply yourself. And I would get all emphatic and try to build them up. And I think I just intuitively had a sense that creativity was more than drawing, which of course, as you know, is a misnomer. get confused about. ⁓ And then right after college, I stumbled upon the book The Artist's Way, which I'm sure you're familiar with and many listeners are, a classic book that really helped me see creativity in a new light. And then later I started teaching workshops, helping other people understand how creativity works. And all the while professionally, I was building skills and facilitation and team building and team development. And so eventually, Probably not until my 30s, I got really serious about integrating these two things, the creativity and the team development. And then I really geeked out about it and decided to go get a PhD and study this deeply. And I finished that about 10 years ago. But now I have a consulting practice where I help teams and organizations understand how creativity really works. James Taylor (02:39) So let's imagine you're on that flight, you're traveling out to maybe facilitate a workshop or give a keynote speech. The person sitting next to you said, so what do you do? How do you normally respond? Because you are a multi-hyphenate type of person. ⁓ How do you describe what you do? Amy Climer, Ph.D. (02:55) I usually say I teach teams and organizations how to be more creative and innovative. And then they are like, really? You can do that? Which obviously, you know you can, but yes. James Taylor (03:04) You Now you went on this journey, obviously there's the strong academic side to what you do. ⁓ You developed the creative synergy scale based on surveys and real teams. What question or problem were you setting out to solve in the process of kind of working and finding the scale? Amy Climer, Ph.D. (03:23) Yeah, so just to clarify, the scale is actually called the Deliberate Creative Team Scale now. But the purpose of that assessment is to measure teams behaviors around creativity. And I think that there are some other measures out there that measures how creative someone might be, or there's other measures that are looking at kind of our personality in relation to our creativity and our creative output. But I really wanted to look at, what are we actually doing? What are those behaviors? And so the scale is actually where I also developed this model called the Deliberate Creative Team model. And it measures these three areas that teams need if they're going to be creative together. And we can get into those if you'd like, but I think what I love about this scale is it's looking at the behaviors and what are people actually doing, which can be really interesting and really eye-opening. James Taylor (04:22) So take us there then, tell us about this. You say that creativity comes when teams have purpose, dynamics, and process, and all this aligns as well. So is this a kind of Venn diagram? Do these things overlap? How do they all work together? Amy Climer, Ph.D. (04:36) Yeah, absolutely. Here, I'll throw up a visual for those of you who are watching this ⁓ video of it, but very basic Venn diagram with that. These are the three elements that I discovered in the research that are critical for teams to be creative together. So there's the team purpose, team dynamics and team creative process. And I know you've talked about these on your podcast before and it was actually through development of the scale that these evolved. then we're getting all into the statistics and how do you develop these things. But ⁓ what's interesting is, you know, I think that sometimes teams think they're doing certain things really well. Like they think they have a creative process, but when I ask them what it is, they have no idea and they can't actually describe it. ⁓ Or they describe something that just feels kind of convoluted and not very clear. or they think they have a clear team purpose, but then when you ask them what their team purpose is, they can't actually answer the question. ⁓ And so this scale helps them and this model helps them understand, yeah, here's what we need to develop further. James Taylor (05:44) So let's imagine a perfect scenario, which never really exists, but we have a company, we have a team. Let's choose an industry. They're in engineering, mechanical engineering. My wife's a mechanical engineer originally. So let's choose that as a, they're in a mechanical engineering making really super advanced kind of parts. Break down those kind of three elements and how, what is the perfect situation for that team? Amy Climer, Ph.D. (05:47) Sure. James Taylor (06:09) what do they mean to be doing in each of those areas, purpose, dynamics, purpose, and process, sorry, in order for those things to fully align. Amy Climer, Ph.D. (06:17) Okay, I love this. All right, and I actually love working with engineering teams. Yeah, I've worked with a number of them. Okay, so first off, I think the team needs to get clarity on what's their purpose, and there's different layers to understanding purpose. So first, there's the purpose of the entire organization or company. That might be the mission statement or something along, mission, whatever. But then, what's the purpose of this specific team? both in the big picture, how does it fit into that organization, but then even more specifically the purpose for this project. Now the challenge with ⁓ understanding purpose in relation to innovation is the purpose has to be, there has to be enough space within that purpose for you to actually innovate. And so if the purpose is super narrow, then you're not gonna have that wiggle room to come up with new ideas and go in different directions. ⁓ In fact, there's some interesting research ⁓ that looked at that purpose sometimes comes later, that sometimes a team is working on their project, whatever they're trying to do, and they don't really know the purpose of it. And it would be for more like emergent innovation, probably not going to apply as much for a team like this, because often they might be working together like, we have this very specific problem that we're looking at and we're trying to solve this problem. So that's part of their purpose right there and getting clarity on that. Okay, so team purpose. Team dynamics are our ability to trust each other, to feel safe. I know you've talked about psychological safety on the podcast before. That's really important for teams to be more innovative together. So trust, ⁓ psychological safety, put those together. Also our ability to engage in conflict. And there's certain types of conflict that are particularly useful and some that are not. And then of course our ability to communicate with each other. And this is the one that's overly obvious, but sometimes we gloss over it a bit too much. ⁓ But that trust conflict communication is all a part of the team dynamics. And so then the third piece is that process. And what's the process a team is using to actually innovate together? So. I think about what happens when the team sits down at a table together or jumps on a Zoom call together. What are their meetings like? How do they start? Are they just a report out where everybody's sharing updates? Because that's not gonna necessarily lead to innovation. In fact, people are probably gonna get a little glassy eyed and zone out a bit. ⁓ But what is that collaboration? And so there are many processes you can use, many strategies and techniques. The process that I teach my clients most often is called creative problem solving. And it's a very basic process. It's designed based on how we as humans naturally solve problems. And I'm sure if you haven't talked about this process on your podcast, you've talked about other ones. I've heard a couple of your episodes where you're going through like the ideation process. ⁓ But when we have a process, we can be clear about where are we? What are we doing right now? Like for instance, we start off, let's clarify what the problem is. We need to really deeply understand that problem, which is a spot many teams skip over and then generate some ideas and what are the best ideas to solve that particular problem. And then I often say, you know, when we come up with an idea, it'll like fit on a post-it note. There's nothing to it. It's just a sentence. And so it needs to be developed further. And then once that's developed, we can... implement it, maybe test it out and see like, right, would this work? Let's try it at a really small scale or, you know, for a mechanical engineering team, maybe like try, you know, let's develop this with a 3D printer first or cardboard or like how basic can we get before we're spending millions of dollars to produce some something big. Anyway, that's a bit of yeah, go ahead. James Taylor (10:21) So let's go through, it's interesting going through some of those, like on the purpose one, you have a team, sometimes people know each other well, sometimes they don't, they're coming together. Do you ever find that initially people kind of think they're coming into that team meeting to ideate, work on, maybe it's gonna be problem, solving a problem, and find that the purpose, when they leave the room after an hour, they've actually decided that the purpose that they're about is not the purpose that they initially thought when they went into the room. Amy Climer, Ph.D. (10:53) Yes. And I think that's actually, you just spoke to the value of that conversation. It's like, you think the problem is here, you know, the problem is X, but actually start digging into it it's actually Y or Z or A or B or whatever. It's something different. If you didn't spend time clarifying, then you would have solved for the wrong problem. And I see this happen all the times in Teams. And there's some interesting research by this guy, Roger Firestein, where he found that if you just spend five minutes clarifying, sometimes that's enough. So it doesn't have to be this long drawn out thing, although sometimes you do need more than five minutes, but even five minutes makes a difference and can get better results. James Taylor (11:41) It's interesting, I always try and start those kind of meetings with just asking a whole bunch of series of questions. think MIT, they call it kind of question bursts. use different, we've had a guest on, Gregason, Professor Gregson, that came on the show talking about MIT question bursts. And he said, often when you kind of get it at the start of the meeting and you're asking a series of questions, before you get into thinking about, even thinking about solutions. He said, you often find out the problem you thought was a problem isn't the main problem at all. There's something that sits behind it that if you just didn't spend those first few minutes just getting all those different stakeholders in the room on the same page as to like, this is really why we're here. He said, you end up wasting a lot of time. Amy Climer, Ph.D. (12:25) It's, I totally agree with that. Yeah. It's like just let's dig into a little bit. And sometimes one of the techniques that I use, I don't know if you've talked about on this year show, but are you familiar with ethnographic interviews? This technique? Okay. It's very simple. And it's actually a, there's a whole research arm, research methodology called ethnographic interviews, but this is a very light version of it where basically you're just going and talking to the people who have the problem you're trying to solve. James Taylor (12:38) I've of this, yes, yes. Amy Climer, Ph.D. (12:55) It doesn't mean you have to bring them all in the meeting. mean, sometimes that's not appropriate or realistic, but it might be picking up the phone or walking down the street or wherever people who have this problem are, go talk to them and you're asking them questions for anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour, depending on the situation. But even asking them questions for 10 minutes, you might get... a completely different perspective of what's actually going on and realize, ⁓ okay, now we understand it better from their perspective and that's gonna change how we idea. James Taylor (13:24) Yeah. You've just given a very academic fancy label to something I'm thinking I often do where, what's that thing is this expression in America is like a $10 word or there's something like this is kind of that kind of thing. It's like a 10 cent or a $10 word. Anyway, I often think about it when clients come to me and maybe you find this the same when clients book you in for keynotes is the person that comes to you is maybe the HR leader. Amy Climer, Ph.D. (13:37) you ⁓ like a 10 cent word? I don't know. James Taylor (13:59) or the C-suite in the organization or a VP. And I always ask that before we do the event, can I speak to two or three of your team members are gonna be at this event in advance? And I'm always fascinated because sometimes I'm having to triangulate between, well, the CEO thinks this is the problem, the people on the grand floor who are dealing with everything, they see this is the problem, HR sees it from this kind of different problem. And until you kind of start by just putting all that. Amy Climer, Ph.D. (14:09) Right. James Taylor (14:26) out there you don't really find, which kind of brings me to that second point, the dynamics piece. So I'm here in Scotland today and we have ⁓ Edinburgh, which is the home of the Enlightenment period, and they had a phrase they used to have there which was called, flighting. So flighting is the ritual abuse of your opponent by means of verbal violence. That's basically what it is. So we would think of that as, know, sometimes if someone comes from outside and they see Amy Climer, Ph.D. (14:30) Yeah. gosh. James Taylor (14:55) two Scottish people or Italians can be a little bit like this as well, having a really deep discussion about something. It looks like they're fighting, but they're not fighting. They're actually just, they're really passionate. Now, in that dynamics part, you talk about the requirements, things that you required to ensure that you're gonna get the best from that team. So can you talk about the dynamics piece? Amy Climer, Ph.D. (15:16) Yeah, well, since you brought up this idea of flighting or fighting and what looks like fighting maybe, ⁓ one of the pieces is around conflict. And there's a type of conflict and I love this phrase called creative abrasion. so, okay, let me back up first, but I wanna explain what creative abrasion is, but let me back up and say, so there's two main types of conflict. There's that relationship conflict where, I just don't like you. And for whatever reason, it's like, here goes James again. And I just like check out, right? Like that is never helpful in a team. Or I don't know if it's ever helpful in any context. ⁓ But relationship conflict is not helpful. But then there's task conflict where we're going to disagree about the work or how we approach it or the result, you know, all of that. And in the 1980s, this guy, Jerry Hirschberg, he was hired by Nissan. And at that point, Nissan was trying to bring meld together the ⁓ Japanese engineering with the American innovation, and they were building Nissan plants in the US to make new cars. So they hired Jerry Hirschberg to like lead this process. And so he gets these teams together of the Japanese and Americans, and they're in Tennessee in the United States. there was so much conflict. They couldn't even agree on what radio station to listen to in the office, which, you in the 1980s, that's what you might argue about. And eventually he kind of realized this is really good, and maybe not the radio station debate, but these different perspectives coming together were really important. And there were times where the team was so polite with each other that they weren't getting anywhere. And so he started to push them And he called this creative abrasion that we need to disagree about the work and, you in this case, how they design the cars. And if what happens if the team, like in the team meeting, everyone's like, yeah, yeah, that looks fine. Yeah, the headlight looks great. And then out in the hallway, there's a conversation like, ⁓ my gosh, I can't believe we're going to go with that headlight design. It looks hideous. That's not helping anybody. And actually, what would be better is like, let's bring that conversation into the team meetings, into the, you know, and you can have a time and a place for it. It's not like you're always in debate, because that's also not helpful. But being able to engage in that creative abrasion can be really valuable. And I would say that's really hard without a level of psychological safety and a level of trust. James Taylor (18:05) It reminds me a little bit of there was a few years ago, there was a series of airline incidents, crashes, ⁓ one airline, Korean airlines, I think I seem to remember was the airline. And they played back the tapes, the black box tapes, and they would hear something along the lines of often the way that they had the pilots, that the pilot was very senior, much older, and the co-pilot was usually much younger, much more junior. That was kind of, they had quite a big dynamic there. And you would hear things like the co-pilot, the junior saying to the pilot, ah Captain, I can see that mountain is getting very close just now. And in a few seconds we go by, Captain, yes, that mountain is definitely getting closer. And so, and it was a cultural thing in terms of seniority and what they had to do when they went through it on the safety side, they actually sent all the pilots to the United States. do and train again, to teach them, I guess, assertiveness or, you know, just kind of knock some of that stuff out. Now, you know, actually, I quite like that there is something very nice about, you know, parts of Asia where there's a little bit more mellow with things. But yeah, so I love this idea of this creative abrasion. And I think I see this sometimes, I was in a kind of co-working innovation incubation. Amy Climer, Ph.D. (19:17) Yeah, the saving face is important. Yeah. James Taylor (19:31) district of a city. I wouldn't say what the city was. And it had looked like it had been designed by an architecture firm. And it was perfect. It was beautiful. had all the things, know, tick, tick, tick. had in terms of the kind of spaces and that kind of design there. And I just turned to the person I was walking around with it and I said, something, this is not right. It lacks the kind of, that kind of brazen you're talking about of a Berlin or, you know, Amy Climer, Ph.D. (19:40) ⁓ James Taylor (20:01) parts of London or parts, if you go to San Francisco, know, Tenderloin or bits, you know, it's a little, there's something that you need a little bit of that rubbing up against each other, I guess. Amy Climer, Ph.D. (20:11) Yeah, oh my gosh, I love both these examples. Yeah, I do remember reading about the airline pilots and Yeah, I do feel like yeah We need to like bump up against each other and if we're too polite whether it's because of hierarchy or you know culture or whatever it is That can also be a problem now I'm not suggesting that everyone needs to be rude to each other because that's obviously the other end of the spectrum but Your example about you know the city It totally fits. actually live in a place, I live in Asheville, North Carolina, which is more on that kind of grungier end, you know, like the San Francisco, the Berlin. I mean, we're a small city, only a hundred thousand people or so, but we're known for being a artistic, creative place. And I love that about living here is that, you know, there's sections of town that have a lot of graffiti and murals and... You know, somebody just like gets an idea and they just go do it. I mean, to a degree, right? And I feel like it's almost like a little bit different than going through this formal process. But sometimes there needs to be space there for just these ideas to evolve. Like, yeah, let's try that. That sounds interesting. Let's see what happens. And maybe it's good, maybe it's not. But you figure that out in the process. James Taylor (21:38) Yeah, I think you often see in places with ⁓ high immigration coming in from other places. mean, obviously America has benefited very much from that over the centuries. I was just recently ⁓ in Vienna speaking at an engine, kind of manufacturing conference. And you look at the history of that place and they had these two great golden ages in Vienna. And they both came at the same time where they had massive, actually immigration coming in from different places. One was because one empire was collapsing and then all these people were kind of coming in. Amy Climer, Ph.D. (21:38) Yeah. James Taylor (22:08) And there was tension within that. There was that kind of abrasiveness because you had people with very different perspectives, they different food, they liked different things. But from that, it kind of created this combustion of ideas. And actually America benefited from that because many of those people that ended up moving to, in 1930s and 20s and 30s and 40s, they ended up moving to United States and all those things that we think of as... American today like a shopping malls, know, they all came from, or kitchens like fitted kitchens, they were all Viennese ideas or modern advertising, scientific based advertising, these were all Viennese ideas that came from that as well. So you've got this team, you know, they're starting to get aligned, but when you're working with different organizations, what are the most common blocks that you see in their people or the way that things are, these teams are kind of formed in different ways, are holding them from back from Amy Climer, Ph.D. (22:39) interesting. James Taylor (22:58) really unleashing their creative potential. Amy Climer, Ph.D. (23:02) Okay, so. I think one of the big blocks, well, when I ask clients, say, what are your big blocks? What are your barriers to creativity? One of the things they always say is time. And I get it, right? We live in this world right now that's just really busy and fast paced and people have this really high expectations and they think if I order something online, I should be able to get it in two hours or at most two days. So I believe that is true on some level that we do struggle with fitting all the things in in a given day. But I also try to push back a little bit and say, well, are there things that you're doing that you don't need to be doing anymore? Or are there processes in your business that could be changed because they're outdated or, I was talking to one client and turned out there was a... One of the employees produced a particular report every month. This was just something that they had been doing. They were told to do, know, years ago, they'd been producing this report every month. It took them several hours to do. No one was looking at it. And so in the middle of the meeting, they said, wait, so can I stop creating this report? And everyone was like, yeah, don't do that anymore. And so, and this just had, this conversation just happened to come up. It wasn't like we went around and all, like, what reports are you producing that you don't need to produce? But I feel like there are things like that that every organization does, every individual does that, ⁓ fact, in my book, I call it ⁓ antiquated bureaucratic remnants, that we all have these things that have just stayed in the company that no longer need to be done. So I think that's one thing is... ⁓ time, but then more specifically is maybe really doing an analysis of how you're spending your time. ⁓ I think another thing which kind of is similar, but taking a look at the processes you're using and how that affects team dynamics, how that affects your innovation. So an example, I'm leading a retreat later this month for a client for their leadership team and they were telling me that one of the challenges they've had is just some respect. between people in the organization where, for instance, the marketing team will put together a document and send it out to a handful of people, say, hey, can I get your input on this? I just want to make sure this aligns with the work you're doing. And the response back often is really snarky. Like, wait, you need me to look at this? Don't you know how to do your own job? And it's like, whoa, whoa, okay, hold on a second. But when... when they were describing this to me, I thought, I wonder how that process, that communication process from one employee to the next could be changed and might that change the communication and the conversation? And so like, what's the question that's being asked? Is this being sent via email? Is this being sent with enough time? Is it like, hey, can you read this four page article? I need your response by tomorrow. Yeah, that's gonna probably create a little. frustration. But it, I don't know, does that make sense where it's just like, if you change the process, we might change the conversation. James Taylor (26:31) Yeah. I remind you as you're saying it, something like that Amazon, the Amazon memo, where, I mean, often we get emails from people asking us to review, to look at things, to review things, not with any, it's either they want us to be included in that loop, or sometimes it's because they want to be able to show off, and they feel really proud about what they've created, and it's a way of just getting some validation for what they've created. I'm talking to you marketers here, if any of you are listening to marketing. But I always liked what Amazon did, they would, start of the meeting, they would be coming in to discuss something as a team. They would just spend those first few minutes, everyone was given the document, maybe it's a four-page document or six-page document, to read with the thing or the thing that the problem or the something that the marketing team would... know, created to think about how to solve this problem or the numbers or the report, whatever the thing was. So everyone was literally on the same page. And then they discussed it at the same time. And I think that's actually, I think that's quite a respectful way of using people's time because we're all busy, you we're always getting bombarded with things. But just to say, and I'm constantly amazed getting on conference calls sometimes where there's 15 people on the call. And I have to ask the question, you know, why is there 15 people on this call? And sometimes it's because of presenteeism, which is not good as well. But I really like what you said about the time piece. And it reminds me, think we had either we had a guest on the show talking about this, or I filmed a podcast episode, solo podcast episode about it, was everyone talks about innovation, but no one really wants to talk about exnovation, removing things. And actually that's often the most difficult thing to do because we... Amy Climer, Ph.D. (28:21) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. James Taylor (28:28) We're, yeah, we've always done this, so we've always done it this way. And so what you're talking about is kind of ex-novation there. It's like, why do we need, why are we still doing this report? This is no longer serving us. Amy Climer, Ph.D. (28:39) Yeah, 100%. I totally agree with you. Like, what do we need to let go of? And yeah, I just had a personal experience with that a few years ago. Well, I have a podcast called The Deliberate Creative. And when COVID hit, my work, it kind of happened organically, but I started shifting. for a couple of years, I was just teaching people how to be more engaging and interactive on Zoom because that's like, kept asking me how to do this. So I kind of shifted a little bit and what happened is my podcast, like I just didn't have the time and energy for it. So it was kind of almost accidentally put on hiatus. But it actually served me really well and it served my clients really well because I now had the energy to do this other work that they were very specifically asking me to do. And I was able to create some online courses and whatnot. the podcast is coming back now, but I'm... And there was a period where I'll admit I was sort of beating myself up about that. Like, ⁓ gosh, I haven't recorded a podcast episode in so long. And then I realized, wait a minute, this actually was perfect. I needed to let go of that in order to innovate in this new way. James Taylor (29:47) Yeah, create that space. And I've certainly done it before with projects we've had, which have been like a weekly thing that goes out. It could be a newsletter or type of show we've done. And actually one day I've just said, you know what, let's just stop it and see if anyone writes in and complains and said, I really miss. And if we don't get enough of those, then we're not going to restart it anyway. So you've gone this really interesting journey, the academic side, the writing, obviously the workshop, working with your clients and the keynotes as well. Amy Climer, Ph.D. (29:56) Yeah. Yeah. James Taylor (30:17) Who has personally influenced you the most when it comes to creativity? So a teacher or a particular client you worked with or a mentor? Amy Climer, Ph.D. (30:30) Mmm, so many people Okay, I'm gonna go back to when I was quite young I had a teacher who I was fortunate to have three different years in fifth sixth and eighth grade and Her name was mrs. Shar Mrs. Elliott Shar and actually speaking of immigrants. She was an immigrant to the US from Cuba amazing human and I I just, she was someone who really encouraged all of us to be creative in a way that was aligned with who we were. ⁓ Which meaning, know, she was very good at helping you kind of identify your strengths and what you liked and what you were good at and encouraging those. And I think that gave me some self-confidence because this field... It's not that not a lot of people who have decided I'm gonna dedicate my life to teaching people how to be creative I mean a little bit more now in the last maybe few years, but You know and and I didn't even know think about this as a possibility until I was at least 30 But I look back and that was quite profound of just watching how she Supported us how she facilitated the whole class and created really a very psychologically safe space before I knew anything about that, before that was even really being talked about. ⁓ And I feel really James Taylor (32:01) power of teachers. I just posted something on LinkedIn the other day about a game I sometimes play on flights, which is, I see how long I can go in the flight, or if I can get through the entire flight, without the person I'm sitting next to knowing anything about me, and me knowing as much as possible about them. ⁓ it's questions, basically, I'm just using my brain to ask questions, listening, trying to develop my listening skills. And ⁓ Amy Climer, Ph.D. (32:28) the way you're having a conversation with them or you're just, okay. James Taylor (32:30) Yeah, I literally, I mean, I was on a flight the other day that I wouldn't say which country I was going to, but, and it was actually across the aisle, sending across the aisle for me, there was a lady and we had a conversation back and forth probably for 10 hours on this flight. And I know by the end of that flight, she knew really nothing about me. ⁓ But I knew loads about her, I knew her company, I knew some of the problems that company was going for. And one of my tricks for doing that is when they ask you what is your profession, If I want to stop the conversation there, or I don't want them to be interested, I'll usually say something like, oh, I work in internal audit. That's a really good one to use. Because no one wants to, oh, that's the way. But the opposite of that, if you want to get someone to engage in a conversation with you on a flight or somewhere, tell them you're a teacher. Because every single person has a teacher that made an impact upon their life in some way. know, in grade school, wherever it was, at university, college. People will be glowing often about the teachers that they've had, the good teachers they've had in life. There's maybe only been one. So I love that story. So yeah, all power to the teachers, all the power to the teachers here as well. That word creativity is a little bit of a loaded term, especially when we're talking from a business and a commercial standpoint as well. What is the biggest misunderstanding that you think trips up leaders and teams when it comes to this idea of creativity? Amy Climer, Ph.D. (33:33) Yeah. Sure. Great. I love that. You James Taylor (33:59) and its relationship to the work that they do. Amy Climer, Ph.D. (34:02) Hmm. You know, I've had a couple of CEOs say to me, well, I don't want my team to be creative. I just want them to be innovative. And I kind of look at them funny like, wait, what? What do you mean? Because to me, I use those words interchangeably all the time. ⁓ But they think of creativity, you know, when the people that have made this comment think about creativity as being this like fluffy It's about making art or it's about doing things that are frivolous and don't have any long-term impact and are just a waste of time. And that's not at all how I see creativity. The definition I use is that creativity is novelty that is valuable. And you could define valuable however you wanted, financially increases efficiency, aesthetically valuable, whatever it is. ⁓ And when I dig in and talk about that, they get it, they definitely get it. ⁓ But I think that, yeah, there can be lot of misnomers around what creativity is, where they think that creativity is about drawing. And it's like, okay, well, drawing is a skill, creativity is a skill. There maybe is a little bit of overlap, but it doesn't have to be, right? ⁓ Yeah, so I do think there's a lot of, that's one misnomer. I think another myth that I see a lot around creativity is people. not even a myth, I think it's just a misconception is they think it will just happen. And they don't realize that in order to be creative, you have to be intentional. In fact, I have this phrase I say all the time, which is be deliberate to be creative. It will not happen by accident. when, know, if you look at probably any innovation you can think of, there was some intention around it. It didn't just happen. And yeah, anyway, we perpetuate some stories that, yeah. James Taylor (36:02) I'm wondering, I I see that as well in terms of different parts of the world where, you if you ask them to raise their hand, if they consider themselves to be creative, usually if I'm in South Korea or Japan or China, for example, India, it'd be a lower score. Whereas if I'm speaking in Europe or definitely in America, it'll be a higher percentage who will consider themselves to be creative. But I've noticed something more recently, which kind of goes across cultures and continents. which is the demographic piece. And I don't know, cause you're very close to, cause you're working with students all the day as well as working with companies as well. Are you noticing a difference in terms of that younger demographic, now the Gen Z, definitely the millennials, feeling more comfortable about using this phrase word creativity as it relates specifically to business and understanding that link between creativity and innovation? Amy Climer, Ph.D. (36:56) I think so. And I don't work with Gen Z a whole lot. But one thing I've noticed, because I've been asking that same question of raise your hand if you think you're creative, I've been asking that for about probably 20 years. And I've noticed a change over time. And I'm mostly just working in the US. But 20 years ago, I'd ask that question and not even half the room would raise their hand. And now it depends on the audience, of course, and the group. many more people raise their hand. And I think the reason that's happening is because of the national conversation around creativity and innovation has changed. And I think in part because of podcasts like yours. And we're talking about it in a different way. There's so many more books out about it. And there was this pivotal moment in our history. I don't know if you know this story, but in 1950, the president of the American Psychological Association at their annual meeting, he stood up and he, as part of his speech, his rally cry for the psychologist, he said, we need to study creativity. And so what happened is from 1950 on, there's this like exponential increase of ⁓ research and understanding around creativity. And there's always a lag from when research is done to when the world actually hears about it, and sometimes it's even a 20-year lag. But I think we're more in tuned now with what creativity really means than we were 20 years ago. And I think Gen Z is really benefiting from that, for sure. James Taylor (38:41) That's great. I remember Edward de Bono writing in a book once, he got really annoyed because there was a big, I think it was in the US, one of the big creative, creativity, universities taught creative thinking as a skill. And they put this panel together of the world's top thinkers in creativity, and he didn't get invited to it. And the reason he didn't get invited to it was because he was seen as being too commercial with his work. He wasn't almost academic, even though he taught Oxford actually, but he was not seen in terms of, he was using it with big oil and gas companies, and they were seeing, no, no, that's just, that's too commercial as well. So for those, I'm now going talk to those commercial corporate, as listening just now, those leaders that listening today, if they could implement just one principle from your book, or one idea from that book, what would it be? Amy Climer, Ph.D. (39:37) I think if you could implement one thing, would be look at the process and really take a deep dive. are your meetings like? If you were just even more narrow, look at your team meetings. Are your team meetings really a place where you're fostering innovation? And because there's incredible potential there, you got, you know, say 10 people on a team, super smart brains in the room. And if you were just spending the meeting doing these like very boring report outs where people are half listening, I think you're just missing some amazing brain power. So yeah, taking a look at, and I have some ideas in the book, but taking a look at how to really adjust your team meetings would be awesome. James Taylor (40:20) So quick fire question just to finish up here. Is there a quote that you live by? Is it one quote that inspires you or guides your life and your work? Amy Climer, Ph.D. (40:32) You know, I think it would be what I said a few minutes ago. In fact, I even have this on a sticker. I'll hold this up. Be deliberate to be creative. And this is, you know, when people buy the book from me, I send them a sticker as well. this is, if you want to be creative, if you want to be innovative, you have to be intentional about it. And I think when you are, really amazing things can happen. James Taylor (40:56) And do you have an online resource or a tool or an app that you find very useful in your own creative work? Amy Climer, Ph.D. (41:03) ⁓ Yeah, there's a number of tools that I use. There's a couple that I've created that I use personally. ⁓ So I have this deck of cards that I created called Climber Cards. There's actually two versions of it, but basically these are cards that are designed to really look at that, that help with the creative process, particularly ideation, but they also really help with the team dynamics. And what they are is they're very basic, very simple. ⁓ They're like the size of a deck of playing cards, about 50 images. And they're all these images that I, drawings or paintings that I did. And so there's things like a light bulb and a bag of groceries and a spool of thread. There's a giraffe, you all these different images and you lay these down on the table. And then let's say you're starting a meeting and you really want to look at ⁓ say it's about your budget. You're going to have a whole meeting about your budget. So you lay these cards down on the table and then you ask everybody to pick a card that represents What's your hope for our budget for the next year? like, basically the point here is any question you can think of, any topic you wanna talk about, you can frame it so that they answer with a card. So for instance, ⁓ they, you you ask that question, select a card that represents one hope you have for our budget for the next year, and somebody might pick the giraffe, and they might talk about how they really want. the team to stretch and think about how they can be innovative with the budget or more creative. I mean, I don't mean creative accounting, like turning a three into an eight, but how might we be more creative and how we bring in our, raise money or bring in more income. And what happens is when you use these cards to ask the question, it shifts the answers and people get more specific, they get more focused, they say things that they wouldn't have said. if you just ask the question without the images. And it's kind of remarkable. It's actually really cool. James Taylor (43:13) I love that idea, creative cards. we had a guest on recently, he was talking about emotional granularity. Where often when we respond to something, how are feeling? How are you doing today? Fine, okay. And we're sitting in a very narrow emotional range. And she said, if you expand your language, expand the way of thinking about things, it just expands your life as well. So what you're kind of doing there with those tools is you're developing people's creative range. as well in terms of the ability to express ideas, express emotions, express feelings as well. So I love that. we'll put links to that so people can get their copy of the pack of cards as well. If you could only recommend one book to our listeners, not one of your own because we're going to have the link to your new book, but if it was one book by another author, what book would it be and why? Amy Climer, Ph.D. (43:42) Yes. boy, there's so many. ⁓ I feel like I've got to turn around and look at my bookshelf around here. ⁓ my ⁓ gosh, this is such a hard question. I feel like when I think about the books that really influenced me, if you're interested in personal creativity, I think the artist's way is just a great classic. ⁓ James Taylor (44:08) The library! Yes, sir. Amy Climer, Ph.D. (44:30) I will say it can be for some a little woo woo, you know, it can be, but if you can look past that, there's some really good stuff in there. And it's been around for, I think about 30 years. So it's a classic. James Taylor (44:47) Yes, early eighties, yeah, I Julia Cameron just, and ⁓ I'm always, I think it's a particularly good book for people who are a little bit into their life, into their career. And they just, they feel like they need a restart. They need to reconnect with something deeper in themselves. And I think what she talks about in the book in terms of her background and challenges that she went through, I remember like the artist date. you know, I remember one of the ones, which I thought was really lovely, just taking that time just to make a date for yourself, to go and do something just to kind of feed that creativity. Wonderful book. So we'll definitely put a link to Julia Cameron's The Artist's Way. And what is the best way for people to connect with you and to learn more about ⁓ your book and your work? Amy Climer, Ph.D. (45:12) Yes, yeah. You can find me online at my website is climberconsulting.com and climber is spelled C-L-I-M-E-R. And on my webpage, you can reach out to me via email. You'll find links to the book. You'll find links to the climber cards that I mentioned. And I'm also on LinkedIn. So you can find me there, Amy Climer. James Taylor (45:52) Well, Amy, Dr. Amy Climer thank you so much for being a guest on the Super Creativity Podcast. Amy Climer, Ph.D. (45:58) Thank you so much for having me, James. I appreciate it. The post Why Your Team Isn’t Creative? How to Build Innovation – Dr. Amy Climer #356 appeared first on James Taylor.

Creativity and Emotional Intelligence Explained: Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle on Turning Ideas Into Action and Emotion Into Insight #355 In this episode of the SuperCreativity Podcast, host James Taylor speaks with Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle, senior research scientist at the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence and author of the new book The Creativity Choice: The Science of Making Decisions to Turn Ideas into Action.Zorana reveals why the most creative people aren’t necessarily the most inspired—but the most committed to acting on their ideas. Drawing on cutting-edge research from the fields of psychology, creativity, and emotional intelligence, she explores how our emotions shape our creative process, how cultural norms influence our creative confidence, and why social conditions are key to sustaining creativity over time.Whether you’re a designer, entrepreneur, educator, or innovator, this episode provides practical wisdom for transforming creative sparks into meaningful outcomes.🎙️ Top 5 Soundbites:“Emotions are data. Frustration doesn’t just feel bad—it tells you what you’re doing isn’t working.”“Confidence doesn’t come before creativity. It’s built by doing.”“In many cultures, creativity is not a trait—it’s an act. You become creative through action.”“You don’t need to eliminate doubt to be creative. You just need to act anyway.”“The creativity choice isn’t a one-time decision—it’s a decision we make again and again.”Links & Resources:📘 The Creativity Choice (available May 6, 2025) – Buy on Amazon🌐 Zorana Ivcevic Pringle – zoranaivcevic.com🧠 Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence – Visit site🎙️ James Taylor’s SuperCreativity Podcast – All Episodes Apple Podcast Spotify Podcast Takeaways Seeing is a skill: Art schools don’t just teach craft—they transform how students perceive and interpret the world. Linear thinking limits creativity: Great artists don't execute ideas—they discover them through iterative exploration. Problem-finding > problem-solving: True innovation emerges not from solving known problems but from identifying better ones. Critique is conversation: Professors don’t tell students what to do—they help them see what they’ve created and guide reflection. AI lacks creative dialogue: Current gen-AI tools can't replicate embodied creativity or guide personal transformation. Structure creates freedom: Constraints (like musical forms or material limits) often spark greater creative breakthroughs. In his upcoming book, James Taylor delves into the transformative concept of SuperCreativity™—the art of amplifying your creative potential through collaboration with both humans and machines. Drawing from his experiences speaking in over 30 countries, James combines compelling stories, case studies, and practical strategies to help readers unlock innovation and harness the power of AI-driven tools. This book is a must-read for anyone looking to elevate their creativity and thrive in the modern age of human-machine collaboration. James Taylor is a highly sought-after keynote speaker, often booked months or even years in advance due to his exceptional expertise. Given his limited availability, it’s crucial to contact him early if you’re interested in securing a date or learning how he can enhance your event. Reach out to James Taylor now for an opportunity to bring his unique insights to your conference or team. Enquire Now The Creativity Blueprint Free 3-Part Video Training Series On How To Unlock Your Creative Potential, Break Down Creative Blocks, and Unleash Your Creative GeniusFREE training video shows you how to unlock your creative potential in 5 simple steps. The world’s top creative individuals and organizations use these exact strategies. The 7-Figure Speaker Blueprint FREE training video shows you the ten ways to make $1,000,000 from your speaking. The world’s top professional speakers use these exact strategies.In this first FREE video series, award-winning keynote speaker James Taylor reveals how to become a 7-figure speaker. CHAPTERS Timestamps:00:09 – Intro to Keith Sawyer and his new book Learning to See02:05 – Discovering creativity research through Csikszentmihalyi03:35 – Why he immersed himself in art and design schools05:05 – The surprising resistance to the word “creativity”07:00 – What professors are really teaching: “learning to see”08:30 – Why many see themselves as “accidental teachers”10:34 – Making as thinking: the fallacy of the “one big idea”13:45 – Malcolm McLaren vs. Vivienne Westwood creativity styles15:36 – Problem-finding vs. problem-solving creativity18:40 – How professors help students find their voice21:53 – Mismatches and self-discovery in student work22:25 – How the book evolved from research to storytelling25:15 – What business and tech leaders can learn from artists29:16 – Could AI become a creativity co-pilot? Not yet33:49 – Redefining failure and building resilience36:58 – The “deep water and canoe” metaphor for mentorship37:42 – Why constraints help unlock creativity39:10 – Jazz as a metaphor: structure enables improvisation40:43 – Where to find Keith’s work and podcast TRANSCRIPT James Taylor (00:09)My guest today is Dr R Keith Sawyer, one of the world's leading experts on creativity and learning. Keith is the Morgan Distinguished Professor of Educational Innovation at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill, beautiful part of America. He began his career as a video game designer for Atari, earned a PhD in psychology from the University of Chicago, and is also a lifelong jazz pianist and improviser. That unique blend of science, art and improvisation runs through everything he does. Keith has written over 19 books and more than 100 scientific articles exploring the science of creativity, collaboration and how people learn. You may know him from his early works like Group Genius and Zig Zag, which explore how creativity happens in teams and how individuals can build innovative lives. His new book, Learning to See Inside the World's Leading Art and Design Schools, takes us into the studios and classrooms of top BFA and MFA programs across the world. Based on 10 years of immersive research, Learning to See explores how students are transformed, not just in skill, but in perception, awareness, and the way they think. It's a book that challenges how we define creative education and offers powerful lessons for anyone in any profession looking to unlock deeper creative thinking. In today's conversation, we'll talk about what it really means to learn to see, the surprising ways that creativity is taught, and how these lessons apply far beyond the arts to business, innovation, leadership, and everyday life. Keith, welcome to the Super Creativity Podcast. Keith (01:42) Well, thank you. Well, that's a great introduction. James Taylor (01:45) Now, you've had a very fascinating career. You've moved from game design, computer science, first of all, then pivoted jazz improvisation, and eventually in what we know you for today in creativity research. Was there a key moment that kind of pulled you into this kind of work that you do today? Keith (02:05) I decided I wanted to go to graduate school and get a PhD because I was interested in collaboration and human social dynamics. So I went to University of Chicago. I didn't know at that time that there was a field of research called creativity research. In my first semester in graduate school at University of Chicago, that's where Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi was a professor and he offered a course called psychology of creativity. So right at the beginning of my graduate study, I discovered this fascinating area of research that people could really use their psychology expertise to study creativity. And so I'm glad I learned about that in the first year of my PhD program because ⁓ I was hooked and that's where I spent the rest of my career and continuing in my current career to focus on studying creativity as a scientist to come up with rigorous findings and understandings that often are quite surprising. rising. James Taylor (03:06) Now in this book and over the past 10 years or so of your work, you've really immersed yourself in this, world of top art and design schools, ⁓ architecture, interior design, all different types of design as well. Was there a particular reason you kind of thought, okay, this is the area I'm gonna focus on initially for this book? Was there a key story or a key conversation that you had? thought, actually, this is worth investigating. Keith (03:35) I don't know anything or at least I didn't know anything about art and design. I don't have an art degree or an architecture degree. I'm a jazz pianist and that's why I got interested in creativity research. I wanted to study the improvisational dynamics of an ensemble. And you mentioned my book group, Genius, which is based on my studies of Chicago Improv Theater and jazz ensembles. I decided that I should ask some artists and designers, some visual artists, about their creative process to see how much of what I knew about performing creativity would generalize. So I went to the first place I went to, I've gone now to... over 10 art and design schools across the United States. The first place I went was Savannah College of Art and Design, which is known by its acronym SCAD. And the first couple of interviews I did there were with painters and with graphic designers. And I was really astonished at how compelling and how articulate these artists and designers who are professional creators, but who also teach in BFA and MFA programs. is to teach people to create at the highest professional level. And even though I was already a creativity research expert at that time, I still discovered a lot of new things about the creative process that I found very compelling and that's why I wrote the book. James Taylor (05:05) I heard one of the first interviews that you did when I think you spoke to one of the professors there and you talked about, know, tell us about your work teaching creativity. And I think she took a bit of umbrage at this. said, well, actually that's not really kind of what I do. So tell me about those kinds of first conversations and, you know, did you have to, did you have to kind of change your own perception, first of all, about what creativity means in the context of the work that these people are doing? Keith (05:35) Well, you're exactly right that these artists and designers that I talk to really reject the term creativity, ⁓ which when I first went into my interviews, had, like any researcher, I had a structured interview and I had a list of questions I was going to ask. The first question was, how do you teach students how to be creative? So in the first interview I did, the painter I was talking to was visibly uncomfortable. with the question, but also trying to be polite. ⁓ Was a very nice person, Sandra Reed, and very articulate about what she does and how she creates. But yeah, she said, I don't think I'm doing that. I don't think I'm teaching people how to be creative. ⁓ Which to me, like most of us, if painters aren't creative, then what are you teaching? So like a good researcher, I didn't insist on using my terminology. I pursued that I said, well, what are you teaching then? And this went on. Actually, I kept asking that question in all of my interviews, even though after the first few, I knew people were going to say, no, I'm not doing that. But it turned out to be a really good way to get the conversation started, to use the term creativity. And everybody pushed back, graphic designers, architects, painters and sculptors. So yes, what are they teaching? And then, you know, I ended up writing a whole book about it. The main thing that they say they're teaching is how to see. They're teaching students a new way of seeing. And then think about that for a minute. Everybody can look, everybody can see. And students who enter these programs are already quite gifted creators. So you have to submit a portfolio of work to go into a painting program. You have to already have a lot of paintings. and you submit that with your application. So you're really quite skilled at what you do. So what is it that you still need to learn? And this is what these artists and designers tell me. They're quite experienced themselves and they know how to create visually. And they say, yes, the students are good at making things that look good on the campus, but they really don't know how to see yet. And that's very difficult to teach. And all these professors tell me it takes at least two years. James Taylor (08:03) So let's break that apart, learning to see. The learning piece, I heard one of other things that you found that some of these people, these professors, these wonderful schools, don't even, they kind of, they feel a little bit uncomfortable using that word teacher sometimes as well. the learning, so how do they often refer to themselves in terms of what is their role that they see or how would they describe themselves to others? Keith (08:28) They all say that primarily they are professional creatives. This is their identity. So the painters, to get a job at these top universities that I went to, you have to be a star. You have to have your paintings and collections. You have a dealer that you sell your works through. I talked to several people who have their paintings in the Museum of Modern Art. the graphic designers. interviewed a couple of typeface designers, one named Jeff Keady, whose typeface KeadySons is in Microsoft Word. So these are the types of people I interviewed. So they know what it means to create at the highest levels. But many of them, ⁓ pretty much all of them did not start their careers as educators. They refer to themselves as accidental teachers. So they don't even join the faculty at one of these places until they're maybe 30 or in their 30s. So they already have established a career. And then they come in and that's kind of like a second identity for them. But when they're in the classroom, in the studio classroom, what they bring to it is their professional success and their expertise. James Taylor (09:45) So in the third part of that, the word of your book, Learning to See, is the C part. What are they trying to help them see? Is it literally the canvas, the work that they're creating? Or is it something more internal? Or is it taking, I mean, I have to think in terms of jazz music, you're jazz musician as well, there's that balance between craft and the art. Our art might be up there, what we... imagine we want to create this thing to sound like is up there but our craft is down there and so there's that kind of gap that bridge that has to happen and sometimes it takes a little bit longer than others so those professors you spoke to what were they teaching people to see? Was it internal or something more external? Keith (10:34) Well, you raised an interesting paradox for me because if you read my book You will not know how to see at the end So I can't teach you how to see and I guess the first thing I would say is you can't tell someone how to see Nobody lectures in a painting class and no one lectures in an advertising class ⁓ What what do you have to do? So really you're guiding someone through a personal transformation. It's like if you were in a therapy session and your therapist says, you're being too needy in all of your relationships, stop being needy. ⁓ That doesn't work. You can't just tell someone to stop doing something that's so fundamental to who they are as an individual and to their practice. So this is what happens to students who come into a painting program or a typeface design program. They have learned over their entire lives, probably since the age they were 10. They've learned how to generate works that are quite good. But that ties them to an existing way of working that I call a linear insight model of creativity. And you see this in a lot of creativity research as well. This idea that creativity originates in a great idea at the beginning and then the creative process is a matter of executing or realizing the vision that you have at the beginning. And this tends to be what people who enter an art or design program do when they're creating. They have the idea at the beginning and then they execute it. But what these successful artists and designers tell me is a better way to be creative is to go through an exploratory iterative process where you don't get too attached to the idea that you have at the beginning because a better idea is going to emerge while you're engaged in the work. really you need to learn a different way of thinking about the creative process and a different way of engaging with the canvas or with the paints that you're learning. So you mentioned a sort of maybe more abstract level up here and then the level of working with materials and technique. What I hear when I talk to these individuals is that they're closely tied together. That a lot of people will say making is thinking. That you need the materials and you need to engage in the material embodied process of working with those materials because it's that dialogue with the materials that results in the emergence of surprising new ideas that you couldn't have had at the beginning. So you need to teach people, I guess, teach them out of this instinct to have an idea at the beginning and then execute that idea. And it's difficult to do that because the students have been quite successful with the linear model. I mentioned that they have to submit a portfolio and the portfolio the works are going to look pretty good. So how can you teach someone to stop doing something that's been very successful for them, but that ultimately is preventing them from attaining the next level of realizing their creativity? James Taylor (13:43) I was just reading on that on that point I was just reading an interview the other day with Vivian Westwood, ⁓ the fashion designer, and was talking about her relationship with Malcolm McLaren for the early punk, early versions of punk and all those kind of what we now think of as punk. ⁓ she said the difference in their creativity between the two of them was Malcolm was very, he had like one big idea. And like his idea, and it kind of came early in the work he was wanting to do. And it was all about execution of the idea. The skill bit was maybe less such of a thing. It was just like, the idea, the value of the idea. With Vivian Westwood, because she came at it really as a crafts person in terms of understanding crafts and material, as you were saying, she was, she just kept moving and kept adapting and kept evolving. And so it was creative. And she went through different stages in terms of her creative ⁓ mind and creative work as well. And there was always this little bit of a conflict between the two of them where Mark was like one big idea and she was constantly evolving as well. know at University of Chicago you mentioned we had a guest on the show a while ago, Professor Galinson, who talks about these two types of creativity, you those people that are just, they just kind of just come out of the gates like all firing, but they tend to burn out quite quickly. And then there's those others who are constantly evolving and refining and developing their work and they might have a... few key things, but they're kind of trying to develop it over time. When you worked with some of those professors and they told you about many of students that they had, were the majority of the students they tend to have really the kind of more Malcolm McLaren ⁓ side, they've got like one big idea and it's like that and that's the energy in that, or were they more open to being that more iterative way of working and developing and maybe moving into different materials and different art forms? Keith (15:36) successful way of working I often refer to it as the dialogue of creativity. It's an iterative process where you're engaged with work with materials in an exploratory fashion where you're open to ideas emerging from the process. So Galinson and I agree with this terminology. We talk about the difference between problem-solving creativity and problem-finding creativity. So the problem-solving creativity is that linear process. You pose a problem for yourself at the beginning of the process and then you solve the problem. But greater creativity comes from a process where you discover a problem while you're working or problem finding. In fact the term problem finding was coined by my doctoral advisor Mike Csikszentmihalyi and he did that came up with that term from his own study of MFA painting students at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago, one of the places I went and interviewed. So the professors all tell me this is what they're teaching. They're teaching a problem finding process that's iterative and exploratory and then involves the dialogue with the materials. And you're exactly right that different creators have these two different processes, but I didn't see anybody teaching the problem-solving process. I didn't see anybody teaching this linear pathway. So, by the way, I went to people in 20 different disciplines from the design fields on one side to the fine art fields on the other side, and I didn't see anybody teaching this linear insight problem solving view. So yeah absolutely people often create successful works in that process but you mentioned that it ⁓ limits you and I heard a lot of professors tell me this as well. They say yeah they might have some success at the beginning of their careers but it ultimately it's not going to nurture them it's not going to feed them over time because they're going to run out of the material that they have. It's that dialogue of creativity that keeps refreshing you and keeps giving you ⁓ new opportunities and new vistas to explore. James Taylor (17:43) Did they, when you were talking to these different professors, did they give any kind of guidance in terms of how that individual is going through that four year program, how they can ensure that they keep something that's true to them and like who they are, their own voice or their own way of seeing the world, their own point of view, where they're often having to learn the works of lots of other creatives in their fields. I mean, I think you mentioned, we talked about Chicago there, but I'm always, the thing I love most about Chicago is the architecture. where it feels that the buildings are talking to each other. kind of style is that that style and that style is a different style, but it's kind of, they're kind of reflecting on each other. talking to each other as well. And I think there's, there's that, how do we kind of, how did the, professors, how do they think about how to balance that thing between saying something, your own point of view, your own way of looking at the world, but also developing craft and learning from others? How do we, how do we get that balance right? Keith (18:40) I like that question because I think you're right when I talk about teaching people how to see in a new way, you might perceive that as, I don't know, almost depressive. Like the way you're working is bad or the ideas that you're having, you know, stop thinking about those. ⁓ And it's maybe subtle for me to explain what's going on. What's going on is that people who haven't learned how to see yet, they actually don't really know how to articulate what it is that they want to say or what it is that they need to is say, a lot of students who are beginners come into a program thinking that, for example, they want to do work about the environment. So this comes up quite a bit. They come in, I want to do some paintings about the environment. Professor will say, absolutely, ⁓ go for it. And then the student, this is what often happens, is that they'll paint something, and then they bring it into class, and they're going through a critique where the professor and all the other students are looking at the painting. And in many cases, you don't see environment or environmental issues anywhere in the painting. It's just not in there. The student who's painted it thinks it's about the environment, but it's not on the canvas. So that's an example of not being able to see yet. You think what you've done, what you put on the canvas really has solved your intention, but when everybody else looks at it, they say, no, that's not what you've generated. That's very surprising for a beginning artist that other people don't see what they see. that's the learning opportunity is to guide that person who's put in on the canvas to see that what they think is there isn't there yet. There's not a unity between your intended message and what other people are going to get out of the work. Now what happens is professors in that case, I call it a mismatch, what they don't do is they don't tell the student go back and repaint it. Go back and repaint it so it looks more like the environment. That's not what they do in this exploratory process. What they do is they guide the student, look at what you've generated and value that and then see what it is that you've generated. You've generated something that you don't realize yet that you generated, but it came out of you and there's something powerful about that. And you might not realize yet what that message is. So really it's a kind of personal transformation where you're discovering something about yourself that you don't see yet. It really has to be a between what you say the work means and what the work really does mean. So the fact that, and I hear painters say this all the time, it doesn't matter what the intention is. I don't even ask students what they were intending when they generated the work. We need to talk about the work that's on the wall and what's there. and I'm gonna help you see what it is that you generated. So when I talk about professors teaching students how to see, it's not about oppressing them away from what they want to do, it's about helping them discover themselves at a deeper level so that they actually better understand what it is that they want to do. James Taylor (21:53) I know with like improv comedy, one the things that makes jokes funny is you think you're going along in one direction and suddenly it just kind of veers off and it takes you to a different place. When you were doing all these interviews with these different professors as well, was there one in particular which made you kind of almost have to of veer off slightly in terms of where you thought the book was going and where your research was going and it opened up a new area of exploration, either for this book or maybe... future work, you're like, this is interesting. This is something I want to look at in the future. Keith (22:25) I thought it was going to be a much more academic book because I'm a learning scientist and I'm a psychology researcher. ⁓ A lot of what I saw is completely aligned with the research. So I already mentioned this concept of problem finding creativity and problem solving creativity. I only use those words in the book on one page. I don't use a whole lot of academic language or psychological terms because I think the words of these artists and designers are so articulate. What I really wanted to do was tell their stories. So that changed for me. When I started writing the book, it was going to be a very academic book. I was going to have a whole chapter about problem finding, creativity, research, and sight studies, and the people who had done problem finding research in science or wherever. And then, the more and more I started working with the transcripts of these interviews, and I also went into studio classes, and I made videotapes of what's going on. when professors interact with the students and you know, let's look at what's here on the wall and talk about what it is that you've generated. So I have a lot of videotapes of that dialogue as well. So that's how the book changed and emerged for me, is that it became a much more of a storytelling book that I wanted to represent the compelling aspects of these stories. And I ended up leaving out the science. I don't have very many citations. I have less than 10. citations at the end of the book and I don't have those parentheses, know, like academic journal articles have or so-and-so said this in 1974. I left all that out because I wanted to tell the stories. So for me, that's how it evolved. That was not the book I started out to write, but the book I ended up writing is a book that I think is a lot more accessible, especially to anyone who cares about art and design that ⁓ This actually is what people are doing, but they don't always know how to articulate it themselves. Because a lot of exceptional creators, they just do what's right. They do what works for them. they've been, many people, they've been able to discover for themselves this exploratory iterative process. But maybe not when they were 16 years old or 17 years old. These students are coming in at 18 years old. This is the value of going to an art school or a design school is that it's going to accelerate for you this ⁓ learning of how to do, how to engage in this kind of process instead of you know stumbling along until you're 30 or later and then realizing that you know this is ⁓ a better way to accomplish my intention. James Taylor (25:15) Now a lot of people listen to this show are in business, they're business executives, they're CEOs, CFOs, they're in finance, they're in engineering as well, things that we often don't get labeled with the creative label or something within the creative industries anyway. You mentioned this kind of problem finding and problem solving, so I'm just going to go back on that one as well because I think that's the interesting distinction. We're seeing lot of obviously work just now in artificial intelligence where the focus around increasing productivity of people, is kind of the, it feels like the problem solving bit, know, how can we make people work a bit faster? There seems to be less work going into the problem finding, which is like kind of creating entirely new ways of doing things, new industries, new types of products and services. For those people who are listening to this show who maybe don't come from the traditional arts world or the creative industries world. What can they learn about the way that artists and those working in those industries think about the problem finding bit, how they develop their eye to be able to help find those problems? Keith (26:26) I think the lessons are absolutely transferable. You mentioned in the introduction that I have a background as a management consultant. My undergraduate degree is in computer science and in fact, in the 1980s, I was doing custom software in artificial intelligence. The much older algorithms that were being used in the 1980s. And then I eventually wrote my first business book. It's called Group Genius, where I'm applying the lessons of improvisational theater and jazz ensembles to a more general model of collaboration when you want collaboration to drive creativity. So when you think about this contrast between problem solving and problem finding creativity, in a lot of cases in business you know what the problem is. So in that case problem solving creativity is absolutely what you need. I would certainly not dismiss problem solving creativity. But research shows that you get more surprising breakthrough creativity from a problem finding. You have an opportunity to discover or to formulate a new problem that's different from what everybody else in the industry thinks the problem is. And it's that ability to see, honestly, it's that ability to see it when a new way of thinking about the problem presents itself to you. The finding of the new problem emerges from the process. You don't just sit in a room by yourself and think really hard about what kind of new problem is there. The new problems present themselves to you. from engaging in the process. This is why you hear entrepreneurs talking about pivoting and about minimum viable products and entrepreneurship classes. And absolutely, I would endorse this, that you need to put something out there in the world and then be very alert and aware to what's going on with the thing that you've generated. And often, what happens with that thing you've generated, whether you call it a minimum viable product or something else, it doesn't respond or the market doesn't respond in the way you thought it would. And then being aware to that and then being ready to go in a different direction, that's what people call the pivot. Or in my case, I talk about the zigzag process because I think when I look at the history of invention and innovation, I see more than one pivot. It's not just that you change direction one time, but people who are serial innovators who are really good at doing this, they continue are aware and looking for opportunities that again they emerge from the process. So that's what I see artists and designers learning how to do. It's that ability to work with the materials that they're generating, the work that's in process, and it's very much like ⁓ pivoting in entrepreneurship or in product development. James Taylor (29:16) Now with these professors, they're obviously giving human feedback to those students and giving them advice on helping them kind of learn to see, as we're speaking about here. I'm wondering, you know, I see a lot within journalism and writers where now with artificial intelligence, I can write a piece and say, okay, imagine you're an editor from the New Yorker, critique this, show me the weaknesses, show me how I can improve on it, show me the weaknesses in a particular argument, for example. So within text-based, it's art that's already happening. We have seen copilots. I'm wondering with the more visual arts, those who are in sculpture or painting, for example, are there any kind of AI tools or things that are coming across in terms of almost having that copilot or somewhat critique that can sit there at the side, kind of watching as you're working and maybe helping you see things that you can't necessarily see in what you're trying to do. Keith (30:15) I haven't seen it yet. No, I haven't seen and I use Gen.ai all the time and I've experimented with it in many different ways. But first of all, the problem finding process is something that chat GPT and other generative AI, it's ⁓ ineffective or it just doesn't happen. You don't find this problem finding process because it's disembodied. It's in the computer. So there's no dialogue with materials. There's no generation of something and then interacting with it. And it's a dialogue that drives the creative process for a human artist or designer. at least at the moment, AIs just cannot do that. They're not designed to do that. It's not a flaw, but it just is not possible with the current understanding of it being in a computer. Maybe someday when it's a robot and it's embodied in the world, maybe then there would be this opportunity. So that's number one, is that I don't think today's gen i create that way and I don't think they ever will. They will not create in a problem-finding fashion. And number two, you asked about professors teaching students how to engage in this kind of process that I call the dialogue of creativity. And what they do is they talk to students in a classroom by engaging with the work that the student has generated. So the dialogue is between the professor and the students work. And they are modeling their own way of thinking about engaging in the process for the student. It's very custom. It's very customized. It's very one-on-one. It's different for every single student. So there's not a formula because every student's different and every student's mindset and the path of personal transformation is uniquely for them. So that is an incredible gift for a teacher to be able to do that. The people I interviewed have an average of almost 20 years of experience as teaching. And that's on top of the years they were a professional creator before they first stepped in a university classroom. It's not easy to do. So there's two things I don't see Gen.I.I. doing any time in the near future, and probably never with the current designs of neural networks or machine learning. are not gonna be able to engage in problem finding creativity, number one. And number two, they are not going to be able to guide you in learning how to engage in a problem finding process. So yes, you can use them to help you solve problems, but you're not gonna get problem finding from today's AI. James Taylor (32:51) What about the those those teachers that you saw as they working with students? you go talk about that path piece? They're kind of softer side, the more like a psychological side where that student has self doubt or burnout in the work that they're doing as well. Did you notice anything in terms of those great teachers that they were doing in? Because obviously this is something that can not just within the visual arts, for example, but lots of industries see this way you have new members in the organization who just they're kind of going through that process of learning their craft or whatever their thing is. And they have doubt, they have a lot of self doubt there. They have that crisis of confidence perhaps at a certain point in their career. Or they just get burnt out, they're just producing at such a rate, they kind of feel that they lose it. Was there anything you saw from some of those great teachers that they would provide their students in terms of way of looking at their creativity or way of just having a practice of some sort to of keep them soul and body and mind? Keith (33:49) I'm glad you asked that because it's almost a truism in creativity research that you have to fail or that failure is essential for creativity. So and I think that's true, but I think what I see from these artists and designers is a different way of thinking about failure. It's not a failure. At least that's not the way they think about it. And they say this happens to me all the time in my own professional practice. But what most people think of as a failure really is a mismatch between what you intended and what actually has happened. And in many cases that mismatch is productive, which is what people mean when they say you need to fail to be successful. The failure is what leads to the pivot, or the failure is what leads to a turn in the zigzag. So it's a different way of thinking about it when there's a mismatch between what you've done and what you wanted to happen, is to see that mismatch as an opportunity to shift in direction, as opposed to seeing the mismatch as a failure to do what you intended to do and then you said I didn't do what I intended to do I'm gonna throw it away and start over again. No that's not the way to be a successful creative or super creative the way to do that is to look at what you actually have done and then use that as an opportunity. So now you you mentioned self-doubt. Students don't, at least according to these professors, they haven't learned the ability to successfully manage failure. And they haven't learned the ability to see the opportunity and the failures, the mismatches that they've generated. So they do get very discouraged. I mean, you're there in a top university. You've got a professional painter at the front of the room who's 20 years older than you, who has a work in the Museum of Modern Art, and you feel like you failed in front of that person. That's very intimidating and discouraging. So these professors the ones who are very skilled they have learned to manage Failure to guide the students to not get discouraged and to see what they've done in a different kind of way It's part of learning to see and yes, absolutely. I heard this metaphor from three different professors saying I Here's what they say. They say I put the student in deep water and then Once they start to play around flail around in the water, then I'm there in a canoe and I hand them an oar. But they say it's essential for the student to be in the deep water and to start flailing. You have to let the student do that because otherwise there's no learning. But you also have to be there to help them get past that discouragement and that depression. mean, you know, imagine you're 18 or you're 19 years old. So you're still learning how to... use those mismatches of those failures to be productive. So effective teachers really do create a supportive learning environment and they really are just so gifted at helping students get through that discouragement and learn how to use what they might perceive as failures to drive the process forward. James Taylor (36:58) And was the one practice that you noticed in terms of those teachers were teaching their students in terms of helping them learn to see, as this book's been about, that you think could be applied to that executives, perhaps listening to this show just now, the engineer, the AI engineer that's listening to this show. We often talk about things, we have our guests on the show that we talk about something as simple as a morning pages, Julia Cameron, which is just this very simple way of just helping reflect and spend a little bit time in the morning, kind of reflecting. giving them a sense of who their voice was. Is there kind simple little practice like that you notice time and time again that many of these teachers were teaching in terms of helping their people learn to see that could be applied outside of the traditional creative industries? Keith (37:42) I can think of two and one is the importance of constraints or guiding parameters that if you don't have any guidance whatsoever, you often will flail around. You can't just tell someone go be creative or go generate a painting. It's not gonna realize ⁓ their potential to generate good work. So having some sort of guidance or constraints on the process and it's difficult to do that for yourself. This is one reason why there's a value in going to art school because you have these who know how to design carefully constrained assignments that are going to channel you through the optimum learning pathway. But successful artists and designers and graphic designers, they tell me that they have learned how to present to themselves structure, the guiding structures or parameters, especially when you're stuck and you don't know what to do next. That can really help. to give yourself some constraints on the process. Like, for example, ⁓ pick a certain material. Let's say you always draw with a pencil. So you say, okay, I'm stuck. Today, I'm going to, ⁓ I don't I don't know, use a crayon. And instead of doing it on paper, I'm going to find an old piece of wood, and I'm going to use a crayon on a piece of wood. So changing your tools or changing your materials can be a form of constraint. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's the sort of thing. James Taylor (39:10) No, it's like a jazz musician, have a form within which to play, but then within that, there's lots of different ways they can take that. Keith (39:21) Oh yeah, exactly right. And so there's the standard mid-century jazz where you play off of these 16 or 32 bar song forms from Broadway musicals. And many of them are similar. They're kind of predictable with the cycle of fifths. And there's a certain 251. So you get very good at doing that, but talented jazz musicians, really do seek out these 16 bar song forms that have an unusual chord progression, where it's a challenge now to fit a melody line into what's going on, because it's different from all the other ones. Now, if you're sitting at home without the 16 bar song form, and you're just blowing in your horn, just for practice. Sure, you can be very creative that way, but the reason why jazz musicians seek out these 16-bar standards is because that structure actually can lead them to discover new melodic shapes that they wouldn't have without that harmonic structure. James Taylor (40:20) Now for those listening that aren't jazz fans, is structure within the chaos, believe us, believe us. It's wonderful having on the show, if someone wants to take one step towards becoming more creative perceptually, and you wanna learn more about your work, the book, where should they go? Where's the best place to come and have more of an engagement with you? Keith (40:43) I'd recommend my podcast, which is called the Science of Creativity and my sub-stack newsletter is also called the Science of Creativity. So there, like you, I have some fascinating creatives who are articulate about how to do this. And of course, there's always my book, Learning to See, if you're particularly interested in what goes on at the highest professional level of art and design. And I'm just astonished that no one has written this book already. If you want to find out what goes on in the world's art and design schools. What book are you going to buy? There's no book. I still can't believe it that my book in 2025 is the first book where someone went into art and design schools and found out what's going on in those studio classrooms. It's so fascinating and compelling. And I spent over 10 years doing it. And the whole 10 years I was working on it, I thought someone else is going to publish this book. I need to write this, but someone else is going to publish this book. But I kept interviewing new artists and designers because they're just so fascinating. James Taylor (41:38) Hahaha Keith (41:45) and that's why it took me so long to write the book and no one else ever wrote the book. So yeah, if you wanna know how to teach people how to learn to see, then yeah, my book Learning to See, that's the one. James Taylor (42:00) learning to see Inside the World's leading art and design schools is out now. Dr. Arki Soyer, thank you so much for coming on the Super Creativity The post Creativity and Emotional Intelligence Explained: Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle on Turning Ideas Into Action and Emotion Into Insight #355 appeared first on James Taylor.

Teaching Creativity in a World of AI and Uncertainty: Keith Sawyer’s Art School Insights #354 In this episode of the SuperCreativity Podcast, James Taylor interviews Dr. R. Keith Sawyer, one of the world’s leading experts on creativity, learning, and innovation. Keith is the Morgan Distinguished Professor of Educational Innovation at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and author of 19 books on the science of creativity—including his latest, Learning to See: Inside the World’s Leading Art and Design Schools.Based on a decade of immersive research across top BFA and MFA programs, Learning to See explores how artists and designers are taught to transform their perception, navigate uncertainty, and unlock deeper creative thinking. In this conversation, Keith shares why the most creative people don’t start with an idea—they discover it through making. You’ll learn how great teachers foster creative breakthroughs, the power of constraints, why failure is redefined in creative environments, and what business and AI leaders can learn from the artistic process.Whether you’re an entrepreneur, educator, engineer, or executive, this episode will change how you think about creativity, leadership, and innovation.🎙️ Top 5 Soundbites:“You can’t tell someone how to see. You have to guide them through a transformation.” – Keith Sawyer“Making is thinking. It’s through engaging with materials that surprising new ideas emerge.”“Students arrive with talent—but they haven’t yet learned how to find the problem worth solving.”“AI can help with problem-solving. But it can’t yet help with problem-finding—and that’s where the most creative work lives.”“Failure is not failure. It’s a mismatch between intention and result—and often, that mismatch is the breakthrough.”Links & Resources:📘 Learning to See: Inside the World’s Leading Art and Design Schools – Buy on Amazon🎧 The Science of Creativity Podcast – Listen here📬 Keith’s Substack newsletter – Subscribe🔍 James Taylor’s SuperCreativity Podcast – All Episodes Apple Podcast Spotify Podcast Takeaways Creativity is not a trait—it’s a choice, repeated again and again. Emotions are not barriers to creativity—they are information that guide the process. Cultural perceptions of creativity dramatically affect confidence and identity. Creative block often comes from emotional overload, not lack of talent or ideas. Sustained creativity is fueled not only by inner drive but by social ecosystems. In his upcoming book, James Taylor delves into the transformative concept of SuperCreativity™—the art of amplifying your creative potential through collaboration with both humans and machines. Drawing from his experiences speaking in over 30 countries, James combines compelling stories, case studies, and practical strategies to help readers unlock innovation and harness the power of AI-driven tools. This book is a must-read for anyone looking to elevate their creativity and thrive in the modern age of human-machine collaboration. James Taylor is a highly sought-after keynote speaker, often booked months or even years in advance due to his exceptional expertise. Given his limited availability, it’s crucial to contact him early if you’re interested in securing a date or learning how he can enhance your event. Reach out to James Taylor now for an opportunity to bring his unique insights to your conference or team. Enquire Now The Creativity Blueprint Free 3-Part Video Training Series On How To Unlock Your Creative Potential, Break Down Creative Blocks, and Unleash Your Creative GeniusFREE training video shows you how to unlock your creative potential in 5 simple steps. The world’s top creative individuals and organizations use these exact strategies. The 7-Figure Speaker Blueprint FREE training video shows you the ten ways to make $1,000,000 from your speaking. The world’s top professional speakers use these exact strategies.In this first FREE video series, award-winning keynote speaker James Taylor reveals how to become a 7-figure speaker. CHAPTERS Timestamps:00:09 – Intro to Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle and The Creativity Choice01:06 – Her origin story: studying “interesting people” and discovering creativity science02:59 – The standard definition of creativity: originality + effectiveness04:59 – What makes The Creativity Choice different from other creativity books06:46 – The role of emotions in the creative process08:28 – Emotional granularity and how to use emotions as feedback12:20 – How art evokes complex emotion beyond language16:20 – Why ideas alone aren’t enough—the decision to act18:26 – Social fear, self-doubt, and identity: the real blockers to creativity19:17 – Cultural differences in defining and identifying with creativity22:36 – Japanese Takumi and Western vs. Eastern creative mindsets24:08 – Language and creativity: being vs. doing27:02 – Creative confidence is grown, not given30:24 – Certainty vs. uncertainty—for both creators and audiences32:43 – Georgia O’Keeffe and embracing discomfort in creativity34:28 – What keeps people going: social support and creative community37:54 – Competitors and the creative power of external motivation39:27 – How to handle creative block and emotional overload41:21 – Nature, art, and personal recovery strategies44:41 – How creative habits evolve over a lifetime46:38 – What a creative life looks like—and why it’s available to everyone49:43 – Zorana’s personal creative process and emotional timing hacks50:12 – Where to find the book and connect with Zorana TRANSCRIPT James Taylor (00:09) My guest today is Dr. Zohanna Icevic-Pringle, a senior research scientist at the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence. She's dedicated her life to exploring the psychology of creativity, what sparks it, what sustains it, and how we can all bring more of it into our lives. Her new book, The Creativity Choice, is a powerful guide to turning our ideas into action and making creativity part of our everyday choices. So whether you're an artist, an entrepreneur, an educator, a leader, her work offers the tools that you need to transform inspiration into impact. Zorana, welcome to the Super Creativity Podcast. Zorana (00:49) Thank you very much for coming, James. James Taylor (00:52) Now, before you became one of the leading researchers in this field, what drew you into this area? It's not often a common topic that people go into. What was your early work life and how did you get into this area? Zorana (01:06) Well, I got into it very early. was really an undergrad when I got interested and I wanted to study interesting people. I, obviously that is not a way to define anything in science. And I was reading wide and I was thinking of what I really mean by this very late term, interesting people. And I came down to what I really mean is people who are creative. They are making choices that are difficult. They are making choices that are interesting, unconventional, and they are doing stuff in their lives and with their lives that made me want to study that for, well, the rest of my life, I guess. James Taylor (01:54) So who were some of those early interesting people that kind of inspired you to look further into this area? Zorana (02:00) Well, there was a big boom in creativity research, historical in the 1960s, in the 1950s and 1960s, and it was historically related to the space race. And in the US, there was a big, big movement to study creativity in science, to study how to teach creativity, to learn how it works. And I have read lots of stuff that was done at that time and found it very inspirational. James Taylor (02:35) Now that word creativity is a difficult one because it's quite amorphous as a term, you people use it different ways, often when you see adverts they talk about creativity in one way, we have the advertising industry that uses it in a very kind of distinct type of way as well, and in business they'll use it in a different way, there obviously there's entertainment, the arts, music, literature, so when you talk about creativity how do you define this term? Zorana (02:59) Well, I define it from the scientific standpoint. So the science of creativity has settled on what we call the standard definition of creativity. And the standard part says we really agree on what it is, which is very exciting in scientific terms because, well, we talk about the same thing when we are talking as a scientist. And it has two big two big parts to it. One is always what comes to mind when we hear the word creativity, something that is original. And original does not have to be, it has never existed in any similar shape or form ever in humanity's history. There is a continuum of how original something can be. So it can be a small change in something, some kind of product, or it can be a dramatic revolutionary change. The second part of the definition of creativity is it is effective in some way. And that is where the differences can emerge how we talk about it in different fields. So in the arts, what is effective in something that has an effect on its audiences, has some kind of reaction, oftentimes an emotional reaction, audiences like it or react to it. In business, it's effective because it is solving some kind of problem. It is creating a new product or new innovation, and so on. It has somewhat different meanings depending on what it means for a particular field. James Taylor (04:40) Now, what brought you to kind of really be inspired by writing this particular book? So this book is The Creativity Choice. So we're gonna talk about what is that choice? But was, before you kind of get to that, was there a moment when you realized that the message that you wanted to put across in this book was one that we needed to hear right now? Zorana (04:59) Yeah, that is a great question because there are lots of creativity books out there, lots of good creativity books out there. What I wanted to say that was different is we are talking a lot about thinking, we are talking a lot about how do we come up with ideas, and I didn't think that we are talking enough about what it takes. to do something with those ideas. And in particular, acknowledging that this is a long process, it's a difficult process, it's a very effortful process, and it's never smooth. And when something is not smooth because you're doing something original, therefore there's no roadmap, nobody can tell you how to step by step do it to make it work. then there are going to be some bumps on the road and there are going to be false starts. So you have to make this decision over and over again. So it's not the creativity choice, it is a continuous making of choices. James Taylor (06:06) Now you mentioned this idea of emotion and you're talking about the science side as well. That kind of feels like there's two different things kind of going on there. They feel like they're often at war. You know, the sciences we're thinking about in the case of creativity, something that can be measured, can be repeatable. It's empirical in that size. Side emotion, you know, obviously we think about something as softer. perhaps as well. how do you, how do these things link to each other? How does creativity and how does the kind of the science link with the kind of the emotion and the, what, I guess what some might see that the kind of woo-woo part of creativity. Zorana (06:46) Hmm. Well, it feels like a woo-woo part of creativity. It's actually not woo-woo. That's the cool thing about it. It is there is science of creativity. There's also science of emotions. And my goal in life is to put them together and to say, how do they inform each other? And there is lots of emotions in the creative process. It's pretty much a roller coaster. It is very exciting to have an idea. It's inspirational. It feels energizing. But then we hit roadblocks. We are frustrated. We can be stressed because there could be pressures. There is a lot going on. And oftentimes a lot going on at the same time. The interesting thing that seems to be really surprising to people is that how scientists talk about emotions. We talk about emotions as information. What does that mean? Emotions as information? Emotions are what we feel, they are soft, they are, well, they are both, really. So... If we analyze what emotions do for us and to us, they are conveying data. They are telling us something. They are telling us something about the state of our mind. They are telling us something about the state of the world around us. And if we are skilled in reading those pieces of information, we can use it to our advantage. To give you an example, this sounds very abstract, so let's take it down with examples. There is, let's take different feelings. When you are feeling happy or energized and satisfied, what does that tell you? Well, it tells you that everything is good. You're making good progress, don't need to change anything. It already gives you hints towards your actions. But what if you're feeling frustrated? What does that tell you? Well, and what should you do? Well, sometimes when we feel frustrated, it's unpleasant, so we want to make ourselves feel better. But if we are just going to make ourselves feel better and make that feeling, that unpleasant feeling go away, we won't be able to extract that information that is inherent in the feeling. But if we say, okay, what is this telling us? we can discover that it's probably telling us what you are doing right now is not working. You have to try a different approach. And that is actionable, right? It's saying you don't need to work harder. You need to perhaps take a break, look from a different perspective, try something different. And James Taylor (09:44) So as you're saying that, I'm just thinking about when you talk about the emotions, you mentioned some different emotions there as well. Is one of the issues why it's often been felt as not as scientific in terms of things like emotional intelligence, which I know you've worked a lot on as well, is because the labels that we... give and the fuzziness sometimes of the labels, like if I'm talking about some molecules I can talk about that, there's this chemistry that's going on here, there's this biology going on here, but with emotions we use the things like frustrated as an emotion and it means different things for different people and it can also feel quite broad as well. Zorana (10:28) That is a great point that you are raising and there is even a scientific term for that and the importance of very specifically labeling your emotions if you really want to learn from them. And it's called emotional granularity. If we get very specific in labeling our emotions, then we can truly learn what's going on and we can uncover some actionable information. If we, like in our everyday life, I mean, just think of it. Think of last time somebody asked you how you were feeling. Chances are, if you are like most people, that you responded fine or... busy or stressed perhaps. In our culture, in our Western culture of today, those are socially appropriate responses. And sometimes we go to these responses even if we don't want to just give a socially appropriate response, even in our minds, we go to that. But if we learn, and this is something that is a skill that can be learned, James Taylor (11:15) Hmm Zorana (11:42) If we learn to pinpoint more specifically, okay, stress, what kind of stress? Stress is something that is unpleasant, that is very activating, but what kind of activation and unpleasantness do you have? Well, it could be that you are anxious. It could be that you are confused. It could be that you are frustrated because something's not working. And all of those have different information in them and different courses of action that come from them. James Taylor (12:20) I guess that's sometimes the interesting thing about art because it's not often labeling something. I just finished reading a book about the composer Gustav Mahler, the Venus composer, and this first symphony that he wrote is a lot about the loss. mean, lost, I think he had eight brothers and sisters over the course of his life when he was younger. And this is obviously that time when... disease was very prevalent especially in places like Vienna at that time and there's a part in the the one of the first symphony where he's writing about almost the loss of this, feels to lose a sibling, a brother, little brother and there's a memory that you remembered of his parents owned a bar pub as we say in England and he remembers very strongly that his little brother being who was maybe only three or four years old who'd passed away being taken out through the bar while the bar was going on everyone's drinking everyone's singing everyone's doing their thing and and he said how do I bring those different emotions together because on one side there's that that that feeling of of people enjoying themselves, there's life, and there's also this death there as well, and there's everything that kind of goes with that, and what he ended up doing was he ended up making actually a song, early part in the piece, which was actually a nursery rhyme, but written in the minor key, and kind of feeling quite haunting, and for the listener, you can't almost, if you haven't read the story, you're kind of thinking, why does it not feel right? There's an emotion, and he's not using language, he's using, in this case, music and notes. to be able to get that across and I just find it interesting like sometimes when you're saying that that emotional granularity sometimes language can almost be a hindrance to that and that's sometimes what creativity can can allow us to go a little bit further with. Zorana (14:20) Yeah, and art has great power. It has power to evoke what oftentimes pure words, simple words cannot do. And I'm not even sure that our language has words to describe all of what you just described in writing this piece, but it's very evocative. And when you are hearing it, you hear the discrepancy, you hear something is not right, you have expectations that are not met because nursery rhymes have particular way of sounding, but this is not sounding like that. So you are searching for the meaning and you are searching for what you are deeply experiencing. In terms of science, what we call that, I know scientists can sometimes break things apart. that we experience, that is the ability to use emotions in the service of thinking and problem solving and creativity. It is, he was taking his experience and the totality of it and putting all of it in one piece. We can do that in different ways too. we can use the relationships between thinking and feeling in order to harness them for our power of thinking and creativity. James Taylor (16:02) Now in the book you talk about obviously this creativity beginning with a choice. That sounds simple, but it can also be this idea of like a major shift. How did you come to understand the importance of that initial decision to kind of act on an idea, that choice that you describe in the book? Zorana (16:20) I was very curious about this difference between having ideas and doing something with ideas. I have noticed that I know people who have lots of ideas but don't act on them. And it's not because they are not capable, it's not because they are not smart, it's not because they are any of those things that first come to mind as shortcut explanations. So I was wondering what is it? And I have done some studies where I wanted to see what goes on in people's minds as they are considering whether to do something with their ideas, whether to share them, whether to do that first step. And I found that there's a number of considerations that go through our minds. The first one, very big one, is other oriented. It is asking, well, how will other people react to it? Are those people who hear it going to think it's silly? Are they're going to be angered? Maybe they will think that this is challenging their authority. What will happen? What will happen on the outside? And then there is a flip side of that. What will be the experience for us individually? if we consider sharing those ideas, are you going to be overwhelmingly self-conscious? Are you going to get so anxious that you cannot cope with it? Is that uncertainty around what happens too much for you to handle? And finally, the third consideration is totally different in nature. It is how important for your sense of self and for your identity is creativity and being creative. James Taylor (18:26) I know there's been a lot of studies in terms of the state of creativity by Adobe where they asked broad sections of people around the world, do you consider yourselves to be creative? Is that a term you would define yourselves, an identity idea? And obviously in North America where you are, it's kind of a higher number, it's like 50%, 55%. If you were to go to parts of East Asia, it's as low as 20%, 25%, for example. I think here in Europe where I am at the moment, it's kind of in the middle. is that, that third point you mentioned, is that just a simple idea of confidence, being able to say that you have this kind creative confidence, or is it? that that word, creativity, means very different things for different people in different parts of the world. Zorana (19:17) It's both. And pretty much when you talk about psychology and people, it's usually both. So what people mean by the word creativity can be different. And oftentimes we have in our culture and in what is presented to us, the bias towards creativity and genius. ⁓ so we celebrate people like Steve Jobs, or like very famous artists and we put them out as role models of creativity. And that sounds to everybody like a good idea. Well, it turns out it's actually not a good idea because how many of us really think we are Steve Jobs? How many of us really think we are Nikola Tesla? We don't. Those are such remote role models that it's very hard to imagine ourselves being like those people. And what we think is inspirational, it ends up backfiring. We end up getting a message, well, we are not like that. Therefore it has to be something they were born with. And this idea of you are born with something is very dangerous to your mindset. It means, well, I was not born with it, therefore why even try? So that's one part of it. The other part of it is also that you are related and you're bringing cultures is what is culturally considered to be acceptable? in terms of creative behavior. So oftentimes in, you particularly brought up East Asian cultures where these, according to this research that you cited by Adobe, are people don't think as much, they identify with the word creative. Well, there is a great tradition of creativity in these cultures, but there is an emphasis on word tradition. So when you are an artist, for instance, and you are learning your art, there is an emphasis on you first have to master it and you first have to learn the basics, you first have to learn the craft part of it, and only then you get the right to be truly original. So you have this almost delay in at which point you should even be talking about creativity. And yeah, we are talking about somewhat different things. While where I sit in the United States and in Western Europe, it's pretty similar. There's lots of talk about creativity and this idea of individuality and individual uniqueness and creativity being part of it. So it's easier to say, that word out loud. James Taylor (22:36) Yeah. It's like, and I also think there's something that's going on around this idea you mentioned, tradition, craft. regardless of what your job is, there's a beautiful word in Japan, takumis. So someone that's, in America, you did the 10,000 hour rule, made famous by the Malcolm Gladwells, in Japan, they have this 25,000 hour rule. So someone who's done 25,000 hours in their chosen profession field, could be in pottery, could be someone that's making cars, it could be anything. And they call them takumis. the level, there's a fineness of the level of creativity, because they're building, they feel like they're kind of building upon that. And the thing I often wonder is, with the creativity is, almost like, is there a slightly religious difference going on where many in the West, because in the West we come from more of a Judeo-Christian background, so the world was created in seven days, for example, so ideas are like, come from nowhere. that's the idea of creativity, whereas in the East it's much more because of the Confucian or the Buddhist thing, it's much more about nothing is truly new, it's recycled, regenerated in different ways and we're combining, we're remixing in different ways and so often the idea of creativity that gets put out there is the kind of the more Western style of something coming from nothing as opposed to this is actually something that's kind of, versions of it have been before but we're doing something new with it. Zorana (24:08) Yes, and that scientists who study creativity across cultures have made this connection. That how we culturally and from a cultural and religious traditions are very big part of it, how they influence the way we think about it and then the way we talk about ourselves in relation to it. And at which point we use a particular word. And this subtlety in how we use words goes beyond comparisons of very different cultures, as the North American or Western European and East Asian cultures. I grew up in Croatia and I was talking to colleague in Bulgaria and we realized something very similar in... are native languages, the word, the native word for creativity has very different connotation than the word that was imported essentially from English. And so the word that is imported from English has a connotation of trait, something that is inside a person. It's an attribute of a person and you are more or less creative. James Taylor (25:17) How so? Zorana (25:35) while the native word has a connotation of doing. It is an action-oriented word. You become this through action. James Taylor (25:52) That's interesting. It's all those little kind of, so someone might be thinking, I'm not really that thing because I've never actioned upon that idea. Because for them, it has to be kind of actioned. And once we're getting into obviously the weeds with different languages, but I just find it fascinating when you go to somewhere like the areas of the Antarctic, for example, or the Arctic where they have like 50 words for snow or here in Scotland, we have like 40 different words for rain because we get a lot of rain and we have to have different ways of expressing fine rain, like all these different things. And so maybe what we need to do and obviously this is great, you're doing this work as well as you're kind of expanding that range and also this doing this link with emotion because creativity as we know, isn't smooth sailing. It doesn't always about that actionable thing all the time. What do you find is the biggest emotional or psychological blocks to creativity, from taking it from the idea, the thing, to actually making it real, making it out into the world? Zorana (27:02) Yeah, so I think that there are two kinds of big, blocks. And one we have touched on here with the idea of creative confidence that you mentioned. And I think there are some misconceptions about confidence that get in the way of people. The big misconception is, well, you have to start with confidence. And it's almost as You either have it or you do not have it. Doesn't work like that. Confidence is something that grows with time and something that grows with experience. So think about your confidence in your driving ability. Think of the confidence in your driving ability when you are first learning how to drive and today after 20 years of driving. Very different, right? The same thing is with any other kind of confidence, including creative confidence. It changes. And I have spoken recently to a group of 300 professionals in creative industries. And there was lots of questions about confidence and about doubt. people ask me, because I study the emotional side of creativity, how do you make sure you are free of doubt? and you can't. It's not possible. It's just not human. We are going to have doubts and the confidence will ebb and flow. It will start relatively lower as we start some work because there are a lot of unknowns and it will progress relatively steadily but with some dips because occasionally we run into an obstacle. and then you are not so sure and you have some doubts and you don't know really what you're going to do next. So the creative confidence is something that is not constant and it's not an either or thing. And that's important to know. And if you don't know that starting out, you might misconstrue the fact that you don't have perfect confidence at the get-go as you are not having the ability or the potential to do. And the second part, the second big barrier, emotional barrier is uncertainty. Uncertainty is psychologically experienced as risk and risk breeds anxiety. And so all of these unpleasant things and creative work is by its nature full of uncertainty. We are doing something original. That means we cannot rely on something we have done before. It's not going to work because we are doing something new. And now we cannot be sure what are the exact steps we have to try. We have to try it out and see what works and adjust as it goes. But for some people... that uncertainty and that ambiguity is not something they are able to tolerate. You don't have to be risk taker to be creative. You just have to tolerate it. James Taylor (30:24) I also think also the user or the end consumer of that creativity, there is sometimes a pushing away of or being scared of uncertainty. For example, in America, someone that wants to and buy a suit will often go to Nordstrom. because they have a, there's, and they can see exactly what the suit is, the color, the fit, they know exactly what it is, and it's kind of, it's this kind of creativity of certainty. They know exactly what that is. As opposed to going to somewhere in New York or in London and having someone make something, tailor something specifically for you, which is creativity of risk, because at the start, you're not quite sure, neither particularly you or the person that's making you the creative of this. of this thing is not 100 % sure how it's going to work out. whether it's gonna work, whether it's gonna fit, all these kind of things, and it's gonna require that. And I think sometimes we think about this idea of certainty, we think it's about the, I feel it's kind of pushed onto the creator, but actually it's the consumer of that creativity that also has this kind of thing like how much do I wanna go to a comedy show where I know that I'm gonna laugh by the end of the night, or do I wanna go to something that's a bit more challenging, go to some abstract theater in some way? Zorana (31:45) Yeah, no, certainly it goes on the other way too. And we see this with experience of art in particular, where there is uncertainty in the part of creation. There is an uncertainty in the part of consuming, enjoying, appreciating art where you cannot quite be sure what the artist intended to say. Are you willing to engage anyway? I have recently come across quote from Georgia O'Keefe who is beautiful, beautiful work and it said that that she was never comfortable with anything she did in her life but that never prevented her from doing it and I very much identify with that. It is okay, I don't know whether something is going to work out, it is a risk but James Taylor (32:17) beautiful artist. Zorana (32:43) if that prevents me from doing something, well, nothing's going to happen anyway, so might as well try and have some chance at it. And that attitude in life can lead us places, interesting places. James Taylor (33:01) Now your book draws on interviews with lots of different types of creatives, different fields. Was there any particular individual whose story kind of shifted your own thinking about what it means to be creative? Zorana (33:14) you know, I'm going to say no to that. ⁓ I know it is conventional and expected perhaps to say yes. But, what I really, ⁓ found beautiful kind of there is this aesthetic beauty to science, I believe certainly in my experience is when you talk to people who are doing things that we study. when you see that lived, when you see how it lives in people's lives, how it is vivid in lived experience. And that's what I have really found time and time again, that people are experiencing something sometimes don't fully know how to label it, how to describe it. And that the goal for writers and for science writers is to translate that into actionable terms. James Taylor (34:28) once someone starts to make those kind of creative choices, deciding moving it from just initial idea to actually something that's kind of real, actually take action upon it as well, what helps them stay in motion? What conditions or habits support a kind of sustained creativity? So even though they're gonna get maybe rejected for some of the work that they do, or they feel maybe their work goes out of fashion for a period of time, sometimes decades, and then it kind of comes, it might... come back, it might not come back. What keeps them going? What habits or emotions do they need to have within them? What kind of sense of, I guess, those habits that they must have. Zorana (35:08) It's not so much about habits as one part is this identity that creativity is something that truly matters to me. But the key to what you are saying is actually not inside of us. The key of what you are saying, the sustained creativity is in the social nature of creativity. And what do I mean by the social nature of creativity? Well, People immediately think about teamwork and collaboration and yes, I mean that, but I don't only mean that. Even work that seems to be solitary in nature. I just wrote the book and I was the only one writing the book, therefore it was just me, it sounds like it. But it's not really because there are social influences on thinking. There are social influences. on all those perspectives that I gained from going to conferences, talking to colleagues, talking to all of the creative individuals who were so generous with their time and talk to me and let me interview them. And all of those are social influences. And you gain energy from people and you get that drive from those interactions. And in particular, when we talk about sustained creativity in workplaces, there is much more of a formalized social part of creativity, where you have coworkers who in direct ways or indirect ways can support creative work by sharing ideas or by providing that. emotional, essentially emotional support, support of creating conditions that make creativity possible. And that social infrastructure is what truly keeps you going. James Taylor (37:08) On that, so there's the kind of supportive element of having that sense of community around you, people are doing maybe similar things or have similar aspirations with their work, have similar identities with the work they're doing. But then there's also within that, I sometimes think there's the role of the competitor, let's say. Someone who is maybe on a similar path to you, maybe a bit further along, the same place, just behind you. And what role does the, I'm using the word competitor, but it's not really the best word for it probably, but someone that's kind of going on a similar path as you, and they're pushing your creativity a bit further, or they're making you think your work is speaking to each other. What is that role? Zorana (37:54) Well, so what we have inside in terms of motivation, we talk about it as intrinsic motivation. Motivation because we are enjoying the work, because we find it challenging and stimulating. That competition is part of extrinsic motivation, is something that motivates you from the outside. Those could be different rewards, different goals you want to achieve, and could be competition. And they can push us because they energize action. Sometimes they provide also different perspective. A competitor is trying something that you haven't tried before or haven't considered before. So they can indirectly provide a perspective, but they also just push you. They give that extra oomph to the creative drive. James Taylor (38:57) Now every creative path has its dark nights. You mentioned writing a book, there's those periods where maybe the words aren't flowing as easily and there's maybe a sense of doubt that comes in or someone has been working for a long time and they have burnout in different ways and they need to take a step back a little bit. What's the toughest battle that you've seen people face in bringing their ideas to life? Any examples of those kind of dark nights and how people have gonna go over them? Zorana (39:27) Oftentimes, creative block happens. creative individuals, those who engage in creative work oftentimes talk about creative block. We are making progress, you're making steady progress, and all at once, nothing happens. And if you're writing a book, for instance, there are days when... happens and everything you tempt is clumsy and unclear or plain out ugly and not communicating. And in those times what we really need to do is cool off a little bit because realizing that you're not making progress starts getting you worked up. We use the word term worked up oftentimes in our everyday discourse. In scientific speak, our activation level gets higher. We are feeling very unpleasant and uncomfortable. And so it can start being something that is stressful or anxiety provoking that goes into being overwhelmed. And the trick is not to make ourselves feel happy somehow magically and all at once. We just have to take the edge off so that something that is overwhelming becomes still difficult and challenging, but now you can engage in the process and still go and sit in front of the computer or in your studio or wherever else you are. in doing your work and still engaging with it even if you're not going to make as much progress as you normally would. James Taylor (41:21) I know there's been a lot of scientific research in terms of how the physical environment affects your creative levels, your creativity, and this idea of a third place. And there's lots of writing on people that just, when they get to that point, they just, I'm gonna go out for a walk. And just changing your physical environment, being out in nature in different ways just kind of seems to do something, know, it changes that emotional tenor of what you're doing. Zorana (41:46) Yeah, it lowers that activation we are feeling and then it can provide you different perspective. Oftentimes when we are not directly working on whatever we are stuck on, whatever we're experiencing that block about, those times of insight or breakthrough happen. because we are taking that edge off and our mind, somewhere in the back of our mind, can still be sort of working about it, even if we are not actively and consciously doing that. And what's going to work for different people depends. So taking a walk in nature, going to forest is... James Taylor (42:25) Yeah. Zorana (42:33) really effective for some people. For me personally, it is not. For me, what works is being in the presence of art. If I need to recharge, if I need to reset, I need to get in front of art. And the challenge is that... Sometimes if you read the blogosphere of the world, you end up sometimes getting this sense of you have to go for a walk. No, walks work for many people, not necessarily for everybody. The same way as those morning routines work for some people, perhaps even many people, but not everybody. Let me tell you, if I ever try to get up at 5 a.m., nothing would happen. absolutely nothing. My brain doesn't kick in until 10. So it's the challenge of giving yourself permission to figure out what works for you and giving yourself permission to know that what you have read somewhere might not work for you and it's okay. There's no problem in you. You just have to find what is yours. James Taylor (43:23) You Do you see that sometimes changing with people over time? I remember, like you often was told, know, actually just need to get out nature, be around that greenery. And that's for me, that's great for certain types of, certain times in the creative process when I wanna do certain things, but usually in those kind of earlier, more experimental stages where I actually want almost like... too much input, I want a lot of things and so for me going into a Manhattan or a city or in London or somewhere that just has that a certain energy about it, it's not necessarily it's giving me ideas but it's just because there's so many different point inputs that are going on that work well for me, that took me a few years to kind of figure that bit out, to figure that's actually I need a little bit of both of those that is going on. What happened, have you seen things happen to people throughout the course of their lives as they continue to make this choice of Zorana (44:40) Mm-hmm. James Taylor (44:41) not just keeping something within them, but actually putting something out into the world one way or the other, perhaps how their identity changes or how they think about creativity changes. Zorana (44:52) I think that people become more aware of the complexity of the creative process. So insights like you just shared, how different things work in different parts of the creative process, I think people with more experience and with more achievement under their belt become aware of. So what you are talking about there is something that we know from research studies, especially research on how others can influence us. In the early stages, having contact with lots of different people who you normally don't talk to, input from very different sources, broad interests, and you can be making connections that you... did not think of before, that's good for those early stages when you are still brainstorming essentially. But later on, you need to now put the serious work, put the work of, well, trying it out, trying one way of building something. If it doesn't work, trying another way, trying to do it systematically, and there different things are going to work. So... That insight of how creativity really works inside out is something we gain through experience. James Taylor (46:16) And finally, what does a creative life look like for you? Someone that's creatively fulfilled in what they're doing. They're of, they're at that point in some of the things you mentioned in the book of kind of building that confidence within what they're doing, but continue to adapt and continue changing. What does that look like? And is it something that you believe is available to everyone? Zorana (46:38) I think it is available to everyone if you are willing to engage. And if you are willing to do what, ⁓ what Georgia O'Keefe said, well, I am not necessarily comfortable doing it, but I'm doing it anyway. And that's that big jump. Once you, once you jump over that big hurdle, everything else is the process of learning and process of learning can be bumpy, but it's, it's one that starts. and then grows with time. What does it look like for me? One thing that I was very conscious about as I was writing a book, for instance, is am I taking my own advice? Oftentimes we talk about research, we talk about what are research-based tips, and am I taking my own advice? And sometimes, we react impulsively or not necessarily impulsively, more habitually. And it takes a moment to step back and say, hey, you are getting overwhelmed. What would be the lesson that you would want people to get? And that takes effort. That takes catching yourself when you are slipping in whatever habitual modes of acting and reacting you have, and then putting things to practice. I have gotten into one big habit of putting the science of emotions to practice in my creative work that I know that there are these connections between thinking and feeling. In certain kinds of moods, you're better able to do certain kinds of thinking. And I know that when I get up in the morning, I am not a morning person. I am not energetic in the morning. am, let's be honest grumpy. But being grumpy really and pessimistic in the morning is a superpower for certain kinds of tasks. especially for those tasks that require you to evaluate what you have built or what you have written. So I start my morning by evaluating, reading and revising what I have written before. Around three or four PM when I am at my highest energy, I am doing that writing that needs the flow and that needs to just... be going and words coming in quick succession, they are not necessarily the absolute best words that I can produce, but I can deal with that in those low times. So I am taking these lessons and putting them to action. James Taylor (49:43) So this So this whole conversation today has really been about that link between emotion and creativity and how that can be nuanced in different ways as well. Zerana, I wanna thank you for joining us today. And before we close, I'd love to you to share with us where people can learn more about you, the work you're doing, the research that you're doing, and also just share if they wanna get a copy of the book, the best place for them to go and do that. Zorana (50:12) Best place to get the book is wherever you get your books. The book is going to be available. The book is available on May 6th. And I am happy to share the link in your notes and also the link to get in touch and my personal website. I would love to hear from people and I would like to hear how the book resonated. James Taylor (50:38) Thank you so much for coming on the Super Creativity Podcast. Zorana (50:43) Thank you very much for having me. 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