Sustain

Guest Courtney Miller Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, Richard welcomes back Courtney Miller to unpack her PhD research on one of open source’s most overlooked problems: what happens when widely used software is abandoned. Courtney explains why abandonment is not always simple, or even always bad, but can create real risks for the developers and projects that depend on it. From npm package research and downstream impact to Abandabot, AI-assisted tooling, maintainer burnout, and responsible sunsetting, this conversation explores how the open source ecosystem can better understand, detect, and respond when the software we rely on stops being maintained. Press download now! [00:01:28] Courtney explains the focus of her dissertation. [00:02:34] Courtney defines abandonment. [00:03:44] Her ecosystem-wide analysis focused on the npm JavaScript ecosystem, looking specifically at widely used packages. [00:05:23] The first part of the dissertation involved interviews with maintainers who rely on abandoned packages and often lack tools or clear processes for responding. [00:06:31] Courtney describes two types of abandonment: Explicit Notice Abandonment and Activity Based Abandonment. [00:09:27] Courtney explains the third and final chapter called, Designing Abandabot. [00:11:10] Richard raises the point that some software can be “done” and still function fine. Courtney agrees, noting that not all abandonment matters and beyond alerts remediation matters. [00:13:22] The conversation expands into under-resourced and under-maintained projects, which can also become supply chain risks before they are fully abandoned. [00:14:53] Richard brings up the “Whale Fall” idea and Courtney agrees and points to responsible sunsetting as an important research area. [00:17:39] We learn about Courtney’s experience bringing AI into the dissertation, especially for building Abandabot’s prediction system. [00:20:54] Richard asks whether AI is already making abandonment more common. [00:24:52] Courtney talks about staying grounded in real practitioner problems as the open source and AI landscape changes quickly. [00:26:30] Final Takeaways: Courtney argues that abandonment needs to be addressed now, especially through software composition analysis tools that can help developers understand and respond to real dependency risk. Quotes [00:01:35] “The title of my dissertation is: “Supporting the Sustainable Use of Open Source Software.” [00:07:10] “There is no right answer how to define abandonment.” [00:07:26] “Explicit Notice Abandonment”- where the maintainers of a package publicly express their intent to no longer do so.” [00:07:42] “The other type of abandonment was called “Activity Based Abandonment” -commonly used as a way of identifying abandonment in open source sustainability literature.” [00:08:26] “Out of the widely used packages, around 15% had abandonment issues.” [00:11:38] “Not all abandonment matters. If left pad is abandoned, who cares?” [00:21:35] “Maybe projects never have to die. You can create a fork and maintain it on your own.” Spotlight [00:27:20] Richard’s spotlight is the translation feature on iPhone in Books. [00:28:20] Courtney’s potlight is her dog, Chanel, and SAFE-MCP. Links SustainOSS podcast@sustainoss.org richard@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS Mastodon SustainOSS Bluesky SustainOSS LinkedIn Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Courtney Miller Website Courtney Miller LinkedIn Sustain Podcast-Episode 140: Courtney Miller and Hongbo Fang on Toxicity and Information Flow in Open Source Communities Supporting the Sustainable Use of Open Source Software by Courtney Elta Miller Whale Fall (Andrew Nesbitt blog) Michael Winser LinkedIn SAFE-MCP SustainOSS - AI, FLOSS, and Sustainability Virtual Forum Registration Sponsor CURIOSS Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Courtney Miller.Support Sustain

Guests Rynn Mancuso | Maryblessing Okolie | Mo McElaney Panelist Richard Littauer | Eriol Fox Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, Richard and Eriol talk with members of the Organization for Ethical Source (OES), Rynn Mancuso, Maryblessing Okolie, and Mo McElaney, about how ethics, licensing, and codes of conduct intersect in open source. They unpack the origins and challenges of the Hippocratic License, the community driven overhaul of Contributor Covenant 3.0, what it really takes to collaborate across borders and cultures, and how OES is now turning its attention to ethical AI, translations and practical resources for communities to make it a safer and more inclusive space. They also suggest ways for listeners to get involved in these important initiatives. Hit download now! [00:02:17] Rynn gives the elevator pitch on what the Organization for Ethical (OES) is. [00:04:57] Mo explains the Hippocratic License is modeled on “do no harm” and it’s an open source license. [00:06:06] Richard wonders if the Hippocratic License is open source since we’re not using OSI’s definition. Mo explains that OES still uses “open source” in a broader, “big tent” sense focused on work done in the open, and Rynn adds why definitions need to evolve. [00:09:27] Rynn shares rewriting the Contributor Covenant 3.0, starting from their background, to being a limited scope, and getting feedback from translators that language was too American/Western and 3.0 needed a broader cultural fit. [00:15:12] Maryblessing was brought in to lead v3.0 from an African, non-US perspective and to make the process community driven. She tells us what’s new in the Contributor Covenant 3.0. [00:19:43] The discussion covers how they all worked together. It was a highly collaborative, consensus driven process where anyone could propose edits. They talk about how long it took, not work entirely on GitHub, and why not everything was public. [00:24:59] We hear about some adoption challenges for codes of conduct for small projects and enterprises. [00:28:53] Rynn, Mo, and Maryblessing touch on how they are approaching ethical AI work, they share options to support OES, how to get involved, and translation needs. Quotes [00:12:32] “It was a very limited scope, and we always designed it to work on the internet and be for open source projects.” [00:13:23] “I would get these problems that really had to do with caste, but nobody would say anything about caste.” [00:16:37] “This new version also emphasizes restorative justice, and we’re keen on using inclusive languages.” [00:17:06] “We’re making progress on bringing in African translation.” [00:17:38] “One of the things we did with the new website was to include the CC3 builder which was going to help make it easy for people to adapt the code of conduct.” [00:21:37] “Every bit of feedback we got, we took it seriously, we talked about it.” [00:22:13] “It took is a year and six months to do the entire thing, to make sure people were available. It took that long because we wanted to make sure we were incorporating every feedback.” [00:23:14] “We do not do everything in the open on GitHub. One reason is structural. GitHub is not great at document management. Another reason we do that is we’ve received a lot of harassment form groups on the internet that were frankly invested in being able to cause trouble for a lot of people.” [00:29:14] “We’re in the early stages of considering how we could approach ethical AI.” Spotlight [00:33:12] Mo's spotlight is for more folks to get involved with this project and other projects through the OES. [00:33:34] Rynn’s spotlight is a shoutout to the folks at IBM and RedHat and Dev/Mission and JVS where they volunteer. [00:35:25] Maryblessing’s spotlight is all the amazing people that helped put together the Contributor Covenant v.3.: Greg Cassel, Coraline Ada Ehmke, Gerardo Lisboa, Rynn Mancuso, Mo McElaney, Maryblessing Okolie, Ben Sternthal, and Casey Watts. [00:36:11] Eriol’s spotlight is the OpenSSF Working Group on Securing Software Repositories. [00:36:44] Richard’s spotlight is a fun paper called, Paradoxes of Openness: Trans Experiences in Open Source Software by Hana Frluckaj, Nikki Stevens, James Howison, and Laura Dabbish. Links SustainOSS podcast@sustainoss.org richard@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS Mastodon SustainOSS Bluesky SustainOSS LinkedIn Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Eriol Fox X Rynn Mancuso LinkedIn Maryblessing Okolie LinkedIn Mo McElaney LinkedIn Organization For Ethical Source (OES) OES- What We Do OES-What We Believe Donate-The Organization for Ethical Source (Open Collective) Contributor Covenant Contributor Covenant 3.0 Code of Conduct Code of conduct enforcement guidelines (MDN Web Docs) Coraline Ada Ehmke Ethical Source- Beacon Adopt Contributor Covenant Resources for Community Moderators Dev/Mission JVS (Jewish Vocational Services) Techtonica OpenSSF Working Group on Securing Software Repositories Paradoxes of Openness: Trans Experiences in Open Source Software (ACM Digital Library) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guests: Maryblessing Okolie, Maureen Mcelaney, and Rynn Mancuso.Support Sustain

Guest Richard J. Acton Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer speaks with Richard J. Acton, a research data outputs manager at the Human Developmental Biology Initiative based near Cambridge. He discusses his involvement with open source software through bioinformatics and his development of a comprehensive checklist for researchers producing code. This checklist aims to guide researchers in making their software outputs more citable, reproducible, and user-friendly. The conversation delves into various themes covered by the checklist, such as source control, licensing, documentation, testing, and governance. He also shares his insights on the importance of open science and transparent research practices, the challenges of balancing open source work with academic demands, and the potential role of funders and publishers in supporting these efforts. Press download more to hear more! [00:00:43] Richard Acton explains his job at the Human Developmental Biology Initiative and how the checklist started. [00:01:23] He transitioned into open source via bioinformatics and Linux and advocates for open science and reproducibility in software. [00:02:26] We learn why the checklist was created and the design and structure of the checklist. [00:05:46] Richard Acton talks about lack and time and incentives prevent open sourcing and the how the checklist makes code more citable and boost academic recognition. [00:09:17] There’s a discussion on the trade-off between citing a paper vs. citing the code. [00:12:05] The tier system is mentioned and Richard Acton explains how the checklist encourages progression from bronze to platinum and goes over the key areas in the checklist categories. [00:14:21] Governance and community is discussed with Richard Acton explaining that governance also includes continuity and community management is addressed especially for reusable pipelines. [00:16:29] We hear about the three categories for research code: one-off code, web-based services, and reusable packages and how the definitions were tailored for the checklist. [00:17:23] Richard Acton presented the checklist at the SSI workshop and he’s seeking contributors, reviewers, and testers. [00:19:18] Richard Action advocates for publishers to enforce code quality and universities and funders can hire staff to ease researcher workload, and he speaks about transparency and quality assurance. [00:24:59] Implementation and badging is discussed and he shares the grading is currently designed for self-assessment, but open to expert review in the future. [00:26:33] Richard Acton is open to collaborating with CHAOSS and he aims to grow the project into a broader community standard. [00:27:23] Find out where you can follow Richard Acton and his work on the web. Quotes [00:02:13] “Software being an integral part of modern research means that it needs to be open in order to be reproducible effectively.” Spotlight [00:27:58] Richard’s spotlight is attending the Birds New Zealand annual conf. [00:28:55] Richard Acton’s spotlight is ‘rix: Reproducible Environments with Nix.’ Links podcast@sustainoss.org richard@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS Mastodon SustainOSS Bluesky SustainOSS LinkedIn Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Richard J. Acton Website Richard J. Acton Mastodon Research Software Sharing, Publication, & Distribution Checklists Birds New Zealand rix: Reproducible Environments with Nix Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Richard J. Acton.Support Sustain

Guest Federico Mena Quintero Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this special Maintainer Month episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer chats with Federico Mena Quintero, a foundational GNOME hacker and board member. Federico shares his journey from learning image processing in high school, becoming a key contributor to the GIMP project, and founding the GNOME desktop environment. He discusses the historical context, challenges, and achievements of GNOME and open source development. The conversation delves into the importance of maintaining infrastructural software, adapting to new technologies like the Rust programming language, and the socio-economic factors influencing the open source community's demographics. Press download now to hear more! [00:01:29] Federico describes GNOME as the “surface of your desk”- the visual and interactive layer of the Linux desktop. [00:02:16] Federico started writing image processing programs in high school and discovered GIMP (GNU Image Manipulation Program) and began contributing plugins. Encouraged by positive feedback, he continued developing filters and building community resources. [00:10:20] The proprietary Motif GUI toolkit used by GIMP prompted the creation of GTK (GIMP Toolkit), a free alternative. GTK was split from GIMP and became a foundation for GNOME. Miguel de Icaza learned about modular component design from Microsoft and brought those ideas to the GNOME team. [00:14:48] Federico explains KDE was already launched but used the non-free Qt toolkit and GNOME was created as a fully free alternative using GTK. [00:17:58] They discuss GNOME’s long-term success which has thousands of contributors and institutional backing from its foundation. [00:21:06] Federico reflects on his privilege. He never had to apply for his first job because he was recruited and recognizes the barriers to entry for underrepresented communities. [00:24:32] The conversation turns to global south and diversity. Federico discusses the limitations on who can participate in open source due to time, money, and societal roles, and notes that women and people outside the Global North often face greater barriers. [00:30:37] Richard inquires what Federico means by “maintaining infrastructure.” He explains that open source today is less about new features and more about keeping infrastructure working. [00:32:59] Federico talks about a recent project to replace a vital but abandoned infrastructure component and emphasizes the need for sustainable maintenance strategies. [00:36:25] Federico became maintainer of Librsvg image rendering library from C to Rust. [00:40:00] Find out where you can follow Federico on the web. Quotes [00:31:10] “Software doesn’t rot, but the environment around it changes.” Spotlight [00:40:57] Richard’s spotlight is the book, 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus. [00:41:49] Federico’s spotlight is two books: Malintzin’s Choices and James. Links SustainOSS podcast@sustainoss.org richard@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS Mastodon SustainOSS Bluesky SustainOSS LinkedIn Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Federico Mena Quintero Blog Federico Mena Quintero Mastodon GNOME GIMP (GNU Image Manipulation Program) GTK Librsvg 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus by Charles C. Mann La Malinche Malintzin’s Choices by Camila Townsend James by Percival Everett Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Federico Mena Quintero.Support Sustain

Guest Kade Morton Panelists Richard Littauer | Eriol Fox Show Notes In this Maintainers Month episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer and co-host Eriol Fox talk with cybersecurity expert Kade Morton from Arachne Digital. The conversation dives into how Kade’s unconventional path through criminology and international relations led him into cybersecurity and open source. They explore the unique challenges of sustaining open source security tools, particularly for human rights activists and under-resourced groups, the tension between proprietary and open solutions, and how geopolitical contexts and human motivations influence modern digital threat landscapes. Hit download now to hear more! [00:01:41] Kade explains his work is split between a day job working security operations and a startup he runs called Arachne Digital. [00:02:51] Kade tells us about his background, how he got into cybersecurity through self-teaching and open source, and how his criminology and international relations studies informed his interest in cyber threats. [00:05:17] Kade discusses the open source projects he maintains, specifically ‘Thread.’ [00:06:50] We learn about the difficulty of getting others invested in better tools and Kade discusses challenges explaining open source values to corporate environments. [00:12:26] Richard asks whether closed-source software is more secure and Kade highlights how most real world exploits target proprietary software. [00:14:57] Eriol brings up security perceptions in non-tech orgs using digital tools. Kade shares how Arachne Digital offers free services to vetted human rights orgs and he they discuss challenges balancing funding and access in human rights cybersecurity. [00:19:17] Richard reflects on monetization models for sustaining open source cybersecurity. Kade explains his company avoids fear-based marketing and promotes awareness instead. [00:22:40] Kade outlines how their threat-informed defense model works. [00:25:42] Eriol asks what changes could help improve open source sustainability. Kade discusses feeling out of place in both government and open source spaces and emphasizes cross-pollination between sectors to reduce polarity. [00:28:29] Richard introduces the concept of “digital sovereignty.” Kade warns of the risks of splintering the internet through nationalism and advocates for a balanced middle ground between centralization and fragmentation. [00:31:41] Kade shares where you can find his work on the web. Quotes [00:13:44] “It’s mostly proprietary software that’s being hacked.” [00:29:40] “The internet is the world’s largest shared resource.” Spotlight [00:32:56] Eriol’s spotlight is a repository called: The Design We Open. [00:33:49] Richard’s spotlight is 1Password and Robin Riley. [00:34:31 Kade’s spotlight is a shoutout to Mitre for TRAM and Justin Seitz who wrote a blog post on a project called, Searx. Links SustainOSS podcast@sustainoss.org richard@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS Mastodon SustainOSS Bluesky SustainOSS LinkedIn Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Eriol Fox GitHub Kade Morton LinkedIn Arachne Digital Arachne Digital LinkedIn Arachne Digital (Medium) Arachne Digital (YouTube) Arachne Digital (Bluesky) Arachne Digital (GitHub) Thread-GitHub The National Digital Forum (NDF) The New Design Congress Open Technology Fund -Security Lab The Design We Open (GitHub) 1Password TRAM Searx Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Kade Morton.Support Sustain

Guests Marianne Bellotti | Greg Wilson Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer talks with Marianne Bellotti, author of *Kill It with Fire, *and Greg Wilson, co-founder of the Carpentries, about what happens to your code when you leave your job and how to make sure it survives. They discuss their new paper, "10 quick tips for making your software outlive your job," and share practical strategies for protecting, documenting, and sustaining code in open source, research, and civil service environments. Whether you're preparing for a job change or want to future-proof your work, this conversation offers real-world advice for developers and researchers alike. Hit the download button now! [00:03:04] Greg and Marianne talk about challenges in code sustainability. [00:05:46] Greg speaks about how scientists often prototype rather than build production quality code. [00:09:48] We start with Step 1 in the paper: “Consider your threat mode.” Greg explains the different plans needed for individual vs. systematic departures, Marianne speaks about the importance of understanding code lifecycle-some code has a “fruit fly” lifespan others a “tortoise” one, and Richard adds to think about reframe threat modeling around future usefulness. [00:15:53] There’s a discussion on Step 2: “Get sign-off on releasing it publicly.” [00:21:30] Greg discusses Step 3: “Choose an open license” and emphasizes to stick to well-known licenses (MIT, BSD), don’t write your own, and he shares a funny story. [00:25:29] Richard talks about Step 4: “Put your code somewhere safe” and shares to upload code to GitHub, Codeberg, OSF, Zenodo, etc. Greg suggest peer-to-peer methods like torrents could help long-term preservation and Marianne emphasizes the importance of verified identities when sharing. [00:29:21] Marianne introduces Step 5: “Document your code.” Greg shares that most documentation goes unread and LLMs could help mine useful documentation from conversation records and Marianne emphasizes to focus on “how to run it” first and tests are a part of your documentation. [00:35:17] Step 6: “Make your code reproducible.” Greg and Marianne discuss using tools like Docker, uv for Python lockfiles, etc., for dependency management. [00:36:23] Step 7: “Make your code citable” and Step 8: “Encourage community adoption.” Richard mentions to add a CITATION.cff file so others can cite your code and Greg mentions a great book he read that changed the way he viewed this called, Marketing for Scientists, by Marc Kuchner. [00:38:49] Step 9: “Write a succession or sunsetting plan.” Marianne shares to define success and failure criteria for projects explicitly. [00:40:36] Step 10: “Talk about what you’re doing.” Greg emphasizes to celebrate and grieve project endings properly and Richard encourages listeners to check out the paper, read it, and if you see something missing you can contribute back. [00:43:12] Fnal thoughts from Greg and Marianne: Organize collectively to protect science and code sustainability and find your team. Quotes [00:12:10] “Weapons begin as toys.” [00:14:09] “All code is throwaway code.” [00:27:34] “Sooner or later every library burns.” [00:29:44] “Most documentation is never read by anybody because it’s not answering the questions that you actually have.” [00:41:05] “Take some time to celebrate and to grieve.” Links SustainOSS podcast@sustainoss.org richard@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS Mastodon SustainOSS Bluesky SustainOSS LinkedIn Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Marianne Bellotti (Medium) Marianne Bellotti LinkedIn Greg Wilson GitHub Greg Wilson LinkedIn “10 Quick tips for making your code last beyond your current job” (draft) Kill It With Fire by Marianne Bellotti Marketing for Scientists: How to Shine in Tough Times by Marc J. Kuchner Codeberg Zenodo OSF Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guests: Greg Wilson and Marianne Bellotti.Support Sustain

Guest Michelle Barker Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer welcomes Michelle Barker, Director of the Research Software Alliance (ReSA), for an in-depth conversation about the critical yet often overlooked role of research software in open science. Michelle shares her journey from sociologist to open science advocate, unpacking how ReSA fosters global collaboration to support software developed for research. Together, they explore what it means to build “social infrastructure” in the open source ecosystem, the challenges of aligning international stakeholders, and how ReSA is shaping the future of research through strategy, connection, and community-driven solutions. Press the download button now to hear more! [00:01:58] Michelle explains how she got involved in open science and open source software. [00:04:35] Why Research Software? Michelle shares that ReSA was founded to coordinate globally on research software, which lacked unified international representation unlike open data. [00:07:21] We hear about ReSA’s engagement strategy and the three main strategies: knowledge sharing, stakeholder collaboration, and governance evolution. [00:09:37] ReSA includes RSEs as one of many stakeholders and works broadly across funders, policymakers, infrastructure providers, and more. [00:10:26] Research software is defined as software developed within a research context to solve a research problem and most is open source but not all. [00:13:12] Richard asks about tracking engagement, and Michelle shares it’s hard to quantify outcomes, but standard metrics include newsletter subs, citations, and forum attendance. [00:15:08] Michelle explains the role of social infrastructure. [00:17:37] What’s hard about being a social infrastructure? Michelle talks about the challenge of how to motivate groups of people to work together. [00:19:52] Michelle shares her personal approach to networking: research, targeting key individuals, emotional engagement, and strategic planning for conferences. [00:24:35] A new strategy plan is rolling out and Michelle shares what’s different. [00:27:32] ReSA is working to establish research software as its own recognized field. [00:29:57] Michelle recognizes shared challenges of both open source and research sectors. The keys to success are spotlight wins and demonstrate value through supported infrastructure and recognized contributions. [00:30:40] Find out where you can find out more about ReSA. Spotlight [00:31:11] Richard’s spotlight is the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA). [00:31:48] Michelle’s spotlight is Softcite. Links SustainOSS podcast@sustainoss.org richard@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS Mastodon SustainOSS Bluesky SustainOSS LinkedIn Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Michelle Barker LinkedIn Research Software Alliance (ReSA) ReSA LinkedIn ReSA Mastodon ReSA Bluesky Sustain Podcast-Episode 264: Neil Chue Hong on the Software Sustainability Institute USRSE’25: Philadelphia, PA Oct 6-8, 2025 US-RSE NOAA Softcite Strategic Report Overview Full Strategic Report Defining Research Software: a controversial discussion Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Michelle Barker.Support Sustain

Guest Sean Goggins Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer chats with guest Sean Goggins, a tenured full Professor of Computer Science at the University of Missouri. Sean discusses his extensive involvement in the open source community, particularly through his work with the CHAOSS Project, a Linux Foundation initiative focused on understanding and improving open-source project sustainability. Their conversation covers Sean's academic background, his role in CHAOSS, the importance of distributed leadership, and how metrics can impact the sustainability of open source projects. Sean also shares insights into his teaching methods, the challenges of maintaining open source software, and the future direction of his work on CHAOSS and Augur. Hit the download button now! [00:01:25] Sean shares that he’s a professor specializing in software engineering, algorithms, data science, and visualization, and he discusses his tenure status and passion for research and open source work. [00:02:41] Sean explains how open source leadership is distributed rather than centralized. [00:04:45] We hear how the CHAOSS Project emerged from studying open source governance and leadership. Sean and Matt Germonprez started working on open source collaboration data and a metrics-focused discussion at a Linux Foundation Summit that led to the founding of the CHAOSS Project in 2017. [00:08:23] Richard asks Sean how he balances research, teaching, and open source. Sean discusses how he splits time between research (40%), teaching (40%), and service (20%), with CHAOSS being a major part of his research efforts. [00:13:27] Sean explains that the Augur Project was born out of a need for structured open source data tracking. [00:15:18] Richard asks Sean if he teaches his students about open source, and he explains that he uses CHAOSS and Auger to teach students about GitHub collaboration, pull requests, and open source workflows. [00:19:25] Sean shares his insights on research and open source. He emphasizes his involvement in maintaining software and aiding organizations in making sense of CHAOSS metrics through Augur, which has given him a deep understanding of open source development. [00:20:44] Sean explains why he thinks metrics help make projects more sustainable and how the CHAOSS community has benefitted from fostering a welcoming environment for both technical and non-technical contributors. [00:25:23] We hear some challenges within CHAOSS where it’s been difficult to build a strong developer community around CHAOSS software tools and maintaining open source software requires significant effort. [00:28:11] He goes further to explain how to be a better project and that there’s potential for improving project sustainability through structured mentoring and governance. [00:35:07] Sean shares CHAOSS Project’s future and research goals. Quotes [00:03:46] “Distributed leadership: this exists in most of open source. There’s not often a single individual who drives an entire project.” [00:09:18] “You have 40% of your time for teaching, 40% of your time for research, and 20% of your time for service.” [00:12:15] “There’s a challenge of being a university professor. The advantage is you can do what you want, the challenge is that you have to set your own boundaries.” [00:23:12] “A leading indicator for community health is how many newcomers you have coming in over time.” [00:28:14] “How can I have a better project? It’s the same as going to a family reunion and saying, ‘How can we be a better family’?” Spotlight [00:37:25] Richard’s spotlight is BibtexParser. [00:38:21] Sean’s spotlight is Stuart Geiger. Links SustainOSS podcast@sustainoss.org richard@sustainoss.org SustainOSS Discourse SustainOSS Mastodon Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) Richard Littauer Socials Sean Goggins Website Sean Goggins X Nora McDonald Website Nora McDonald-Commonwealth Cyber Initiative Sustain Podcast- 3 episodes featuring guest Georg Link Sustain Podcast- 2 episodes featuring guest Dawn Foster Matt Germonprez-Univ. of Nebraska Omaha The Linux Kernel Maintainer Summit-Tokyo, Japan 2025 Alfred P. Sloan Foundation CHAOSS CHAOSS-GrimoireLab CHAOSS-Augur Kelly Blincoe-University of Auckland James Howison Sustain Podcast- episode 218 featuring guest James Howison Sustain Podcast-episode 243 featuring guest Elizabeth Barron Sustain Podcast-episode 65 featuring guest Brian Proffitt Sustain Podcast-2 episodes featuring guest Duane O’Brien Sustain Podcast-episode 200 featuring guest Stuart Geiger Digital Infrastructure Podcast- 2 episodes featuring guest Rayya El Zein BibtexParser Stuart Geiger Credits Produced by Richard Littauer Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound Special Guest: Sean Goggins.Support Sustain