Technology and Security

In this episode of Technology & Security, Dr. Miah Hammond-Errey is joined by cyber security and governance leader Min Livanidis. They discuss what resilience really means in an AI-enabled environment and how to reframe the conversation: AI risk is often a governance question. From identity and access management to data controls and shared responsibility models, the fundamentals of cyber security remain vital. While new forms of AI introduce probabilistic and agentic risks that require different safety considerations, the scaffolding of resilience—clear governance, structured risk management and technical literacy—has not changed.The conversation reinforces the need for fundamental security controls during technological acceleration. Most successful cyber incidents still exploit basic weaknesses, not advanced AI capabilities. At the same time, AI is amplifying both defensive tools and human vulnerabilities, particularly through scams, impersonation and disinformation. Great security is not expecting perfect human decision-making but designing systems that reduce cognitive load and embed security by design. Ultimately, resilience depends less on hype and more on discipline: clarity of purpose, investment in people, and the consistent application of fundamentals. Her start in intelligence gave Livanidis insight into elements of leadership including curiosity, diversity and how to create a tech capable workforce. Min Livanidis is a cyber security, risk, and governance expert, currently Chief Security Advisor for Public Sector at Microsoft, Chair of the UNSW Institute for Cyber External Advisory Board, Co-Chair of Home Affairs’ Resilience Expert Advisory Group, and a former intelligence officer with experience across government and industry. Resources mentioned: Journal Article: Big data, emerging technologies and the characteristics of ‘good intelligence’: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/figure/10.1080/02684527.2023.2287255 // https://miahhe.com/downloads Cognitive Edge podcast: https://share.transistor.fm/s/cfcd90d1

In this episode of the Technology & Security podcast, host Dr. Miah Hammond-Errey is joined by Kate Carruthers. Kate is currently the head of data analytics and AI at the Australian Institute of Company Directors. She shares her journey from defending Westfield against state and non-state cyber attacks to leading UNSW's enterprise data, AI, and cybersecurity efforts, including delivering the university's first production AI system in 2019 and re-architecting its cloud data platform for AI and ML. She notes boardrooms are evolving from basic cyber literacy to probing AI risks like models, data, and risk registers. Carruthers outlines some real-world examples, such as UNSW’s enterprise AI program, including a machine learning model that predicted which students were likely to fail a course, with 95%+ accuracy, so the university could design careful, humane intervention protocols to reduce self-harm risk. She argues that while frontier models like OpenAI and Gemini have a place, their compute costs, water intensity and general-purpose design make them poorly suited to some business problems, and that the future lies in smaller, industry-specific models trained on highly relevant data. The conversation covers the rise of agentic AI coding tools, the risk of deskilling junior developers, and the need for diverse, product-focused teams to translate technical systems into workable human processes.​ On security, she prioritizes CIA triad integrity over confidentiality, warning of data alterations in cars, medical devices, and government systems via poisoning or underinvestment in encryption. Carruthers urges Australian AI sovereignty—opting for open-source like Databricks over proprietary stacks—amid US-China model contrasts and outage risks from providers like AWS or CrowdStrike. Throughout, she encourages leaders not just to read about AI but to use multiple systems themselves, understand their limitations as probabilistic tools in deterministic business environments, and ground every deployment in clearly defined problems, ethics, and user needs.​

In this episode of Technology & Security, host Dr. Miah Hammond-Errey is joined Dr Adrian De Grazia, Global Intelligence Lead at Pfizer. This episode explores counterfeit pharmaceuticals and the evolving landscape of forensic science. The conversation takes listeners inside global operations, including the technologies transforming supply chain integrity, collaboration with law enforcement, and the unique challenges of detecting and disrupting complex networks involved in medicine counterfeiting. It also explores the importance of data literacy for leaders, and the role of alliances in combating security threats at national and corporate levels. Listeners hear about innovative approaches to product integrity and authentication—from advanced packaging to real-time tracking—alongside reflections on emerging security risks linked to AI, chemical profiling, and supply chain vulnerabilities. Insightful examples, including Operation Pangea and Australia’s digital forensic strategy for foreign interference, highlight the real-world impact of science in protecting patients, supporting public safety, and fostering interdisciplinary cooperation at local and global scales.Please note, while employed by Pfizer, the views shared by Dr De Grazia are his own, taken from studies, personal and professional experiences past and present.Resourceshttps://www.pfizer.com/products/medicine-safety/counterfeiting This podcast was recorded on the lands of the Gadigal people, and we pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. We acknowledge their continuing connection to land, sea and community, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. Music by Dr Paul Mac and production by Elliott Brennan.

In this episode, Dr Miah Hammond-Errey is joined by Professor Emily M. Bender—A renowned AI commentator, professor of linguistics at the University of Washington and co-author of The AI Con: How to Fight Big Tech Hype and Create the Future We Want. In this episode we explore the complex relationship between language, large language models, and the rise of “synthetic text-extruding machines.” Bender discusses the origins of the “stochastic parrots” metaphor, the risks of anthropomorphising generative AI, and what’s really at stake as automated systems permeate journalism, leadership, and collective decision making. The conversation outlines some of the social and democratic impacts of synthetic content, including on democratic discourse and journalism, the dangers of language standardisation, and how emerging tools can erode diversity and self-confidence in language users. Emily Bender offers practical advice for policymakers and leaders, emphasizing transparency, recourse, and data minimisation. She offers observations from her book tour, reflecting on the ongoing need for human connection in a digital era, and outlines the importance of workers’ collective rights in navigating the future of automation.

Dr Miah Hammond-Errey is joined by Dr Johnny Ryan, Director of Enforce at the Irish Council for Civil Liberties and a leading authority on surveillance, data rights, and privacy. Drawing on his extensive experience in the ad tech industry and digital rights advocacy, Dr Ryan explains how real-time bidding (RTB)—the backbone of online advertising—routinely exposes Australians’ sensitive personal information to hundreds of companies. The conversation unpacks the findings of "Australia’s Hidden Security Crisis," a report revealing how RTB enables the unchecked flow of data about individuals, their families, and even high-level government and defence personnel to foreign jurisdictions, including China and Russia. Listeners learn how this invisible system works–and how extensive it is–why consent pop-ups do little to protect privacy, and how data categories traded in these auctions can include everything from health and finances to mental state and personal relationships. We explore the current challenges for legislators and enforcement agencies as well as the impact of algorithms on influence and interference. The discussion highlights the national security risks posed by this pervasive form of data collection and sale, including the potential for blackmail, espionage, and foreign surveillance. The episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the intersection of technology, privacy, data and security.*Note there was a slight audio issue in this recording. Apologies if the sound is less than our usual very high standard. Resources mentioned in the recording:· Johnny Ryan, Wolfie Christl, October 2024, Australia’s hidden security crisis, https://www.iccl.ie/digital-data/australias-hidden-security-crisis/· Barry Lynn, 1 June 2025 Resurrecting the Rebel Alliance: To end the age of Trump, Democrats must relearn the language and levers of power. https://washingtonmonthly.com/2025/06/01/resurrecting-the-rebel-alliance/· Steven Levitsky and Lucan Way, March/April 2025, The Path to American Authoritarianism What Comes After Democratic Breakdown, https://www.foreignaffairs.com/united-states/path-american-authoritarianism-trump· US State Department Substack, The Need for Civilizational Allies in Europe, https://statedept.substack.com/p/the-need-for-civilizational-allies-in-europe· Johnny Ryan, 15 January 2025, Big tech is picking apart European democracy, but there is a solution: switch off its algorithms, https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/jan/14/big-tech-picking-apart-europe-democracy-switch-off-algorithms· Miah Hammond-Errey (2024) Big Data, Emerging Technologies and Intelligence: National Security Disrupted, Routledge (30% off code: ADC24)This podcast was recorded on the lands of the Gadigal people, and we pay our respects to their Elders past, present and emerging. We acknowledge their continuing connection to land, sea and community, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.Music by Dr Paul Mac and production by Elliott Brennan.

In this episode of Technology & Security, Dr. Miah Hammond-Errey speaks with Carmen Medina, former CIA executive, influential voice in the U.S. intelligence community and renowned change-maker. Carmen shares insights on leadership, cognitive diversity, and what it really takes to build organisations that can adapt to change. This episode goes beyond the intelligence community—it’s a must-listen for leaders across industries where thinking, analysis, and communication are core to success.We explore how to harness cognitive diversity, compile high-performing teams, and make intelligence work for decision-makers in real time. There’s practical inspiration, including tools for understanding external change and evolving internal cultures to keep pace. Carmen shares why representation matters and her experience as a Puerto Rican woman in a system shaped by elite norms. She talks about how her background shaped her as a systems thinker and how she eventually embraced her identity to influence change. From YouTube algorithms and competitive pickleball to the power dynamics within national security institutions, this episode unpacks what it means to disrupt from within—and why diverse perspectives are essential to the future of intelligence–and society.Resources mentioned in the recording· Carmen Medina, 2015, Who Needs Rebels at Work? Forbes https://www.forbes.com/sites/oreillymedia/2015/01/13/who-needs-rebels-at-work/#7506efbd20a6· Rebels at Work: A Handbook for Leading Change from Within https://www.rebelsatwork.com/resourcesThis podcast was recorded on the lands of the Gadigal people, and we pay our respects to their Elders past, present and emerging. We acknowledge their continuing connection to land, sea and community, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.Music by Dr Paul Mac and production by Elliott Brennan.

In this episode of the Technology & Security podcast, Dr. Miah Hammond-Errey speaks with privacy expert Anna Johnston about the evolving landscape of data privacy, AI governance, and security. With AI dominating the global conversation, this episode explores why strong data governance is the essential—yet often overlooked—foundation for innovation. Anna warns that companies rushing into AI without mature privacy practices risk legal challenges and regulatory crackdowns, including the risk of ‘algorithmic disgorgement’. With new privacy reforms on the horizon, 2025 is set to be a defining year for digital rights and compliance. The discussion explores major legal shifts in 2025, including Australia’s new statutory privacy tort and a landmark Victorian court decision recognising a common law right to privacy. The episode explores the links between privacy, national security, and algorithmic polarisation as well as mis and disinformation and tech facilitated gender violence—and why privacy law reform is essential to safeguarding democracy. Johnston shares insights on how privacy reform could fix some of these intractable problems. Whether you're a tech leader, policymaker, or privacy-conscious citizen, this episode unpacks critical issues shaping our digital future.

In this bonus special episode of the Technology and Security podcast, host Dr Miah Hammond-Errey was joined in conversation by Dr. Simon Longstaff and Major General Paul Symon. It is a lightly edited panel conversation about ethics, technology and intelligence held at the ethics Centre in Sydney in February this year. Ostensibly to launch Miah’s new book, the conversation was a great excuse to get the three of us together to have a fun chat about the intersections of technology intelligence and ethics. Dr Miah Hammond-Errey outlined how the big data landscape –of data abundance, digital connectivity and ubiquitous technology – impacts intelligence production and national security. This includes where Australian intelligence leaders and practitioners see the ethical boundaries of data and technology use in intelligence as well as the broader concept of ‘ethics at scale.’ The first 22 mins are the opening statements. Following on, Dr. Simon Longstaff and Major General Paul Symon explored a wide range of ethical implications of technology for intelligence, including the distinction between foreign and domestic intelligence, trust and legitimacy of institutions and the role of humans in ethical decision-making. They then take questions from the audience. Afterwards they co-published a short article about the idea of ethics at scale and how organisations can manage the increasing ethical conundrums technology brings. You can find the links below in the show notes. I hope you enjoy it! This is the second of a series of special episodes on intelligence. Given the intense interest in the role of technology in intelligence production and Security decision making, Technology & Security podcast will have occasional special additions with a purple logo highlighting intelligence specific episodes.Resources mentioned in the recording:Book: 29 Jan 2024, Big Data, Emerging Technology & Intelligence: National Security Disrupted, Routledge (30% off discount code: ADC24) Opinion: 18 Mar 2024 Why every organisation should have an ethical adviser, The Canberra Times, co-authors Dr Simon Longstaff, Paul Symon and Dr Miah Hammond-Errey) (https://ethics.org.au/access-to-ethical-advice-is-crucial/) This podcast was recorded on the lands of the Gadigal people, and we pay our respects to their Elders past, present and emerging. We acknowledge their continuing connection to land, sea and community, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. Thanks to the talents of those involved. Music by Dr Paul Mac and production by Elliott Brennan. Panel Bios: Dr Simon Longstaff has been Executive Director of The Ethics Centre for 30 years, working across business, government and society. Dr Simon Longstaff began his working life on Groote Eylandt in the Northern Territory of Australia. He is proud of his kinship ties to the Anindilyakwa people. He has a PhD in philosophy from Cambridge University, is a Fellow of CPA Australia and of the Royal Society of NSW, and an Adjunct Professor of the AGSM at UNSW. In 2013, he was made an officer of the Order of Australia (AO) for “distinguished service to the community through the promotion of ethical standards in governance and business, to improving corporate responsibility, and to philosophy.” Simon is an Adjunct Professor of the Australian Graduate School of Management at UNSW, a Fellow of CPA Australia, the Royal Society of NSW and the Australian Risk Policy Institute.Major General Paul Symon (Retd), AO served as the 12th Director-General of the Australian Secret Intelligence Service (ASIS) from 2017-2022, responsible for the collection of foreign human intelligence. During his tenure, he provided advice to the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Prime Minister on foreign intelligence, was a regular attendee of the National Security Committee of Cabinet and oversaw a high tempo of very sensitive and high-risk intelligence operations. Prior to this, his military career lasted 35 years across regions and distinguished appointments, including leading intelligence activities at the highest levels. He served overseas in the United Kingdom, Israel, Lebanon, Solomon Islands, Timor Leste and Baghdad. Paul was made an Officer in the Military Division of the Order of Australia (AO) for distinguished service as Joint Task Force commander on operations in the Middle East in 2005/06. Paul is currently an independent non-executive board member and, separately, a strategic adviser to the University of Melbourne. Dr Miah Hammond-Errey, your host, is the CEO of Strat Futures and Adjunct Associate Professor at Deakin University. Dr Hammond-Errey spent eighteen years leading federal government analysis and communications activities in Australia, Europe, and Asia. She was awarded an Operations Medal. Miah has led and established technology and security programs for Australian think tanks and teaches, publishes and presents on national security, technology, cyber, intelligence and leadership. Her book is called Big Data, Emerging Technologies and Intelligence: National Security Disrupted.Hosted by: The Ethics Centre

BONUS: Tailwinds and Tensions of Technology for OSINT (presented at Australian OSINT Symposium) In this bonus episode of the Technology & Security podcast, host Dr. Miah Hammond-Errey presents to the Australian OSINT Symposium. Called Tailwinds and Tensions of Technology for OSINT, this presentation identified three major shifts and explored their impacts. The first is how the digital landscape and emerging tech are transforming intelligence. The second is a decline in information environment. The third is the increased environment of competition and conflict, not just in our region but globally. It unpacks these more and offers insights into some of the tailwinds and tensions for open-source intelligence. Addressing questions from the audience, Dr. Hammond-Errey speaks candidly on the roles of universities, the power dynamics between governments and big tech, and potential social media bans as well as the desire to ‘analogue’ life. This episode is a thought-provoking look at the tailwinds and tensions of new technologies for OSINT and includes consideration of how we can foster a tech ecosystem that aligns with democratic values, placing human needs and safety at the forefront. Resources mentioned in the recording: · Column: Lowy Interpreter, 18 Jun 2024, Should Australia ban TikTok? Lowy Interpreter · Book: 29 Jan 2024, Big Data, Emerging Technology & Intelligence: National Security Disrupted, Routledge (30% off discount code: ADC24) · Research Report: 9 Feb 2023, Secrecy, sovereignty and sharing: How data and emerging technologies are transforming intelligence. United States Studies Centre· OSINT Combine https://www.osintcombine.com/· To find out more about Australian OSINT Symposium (held annually): https://www.osintsymposium.com/ This podcast was recorded on the lands of the Gadigal people, and we pay our respects to their Elders past, present and emerging. We acknowledge their continuing connection to land, sea and community, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. Thanks to the talents of those involved. Music by Dr Paul Mac and production by Elliott Brennan.

In this episode of the Technology & Security podcast, host Dr. Miah Hammond-Errey is joined by Australian National Cyber Security Coordinator, Lieutenant General Michelle McGuinness. We talk all things cyber for Cyber Security Awareness Month. This episode explores cyber security threats, incidents and response coordination mechanisms as well as the National Cyber Intelligence Partnership and Executive Cyber Council. We also touch on Five Eyes, alliances and the intelligence implications of cyber. This episode explores interdependencies across sectors, highlighting cyber vulnerabilities and the consequences of cyber incidents, such as how a single system failure can disrupt essential services like payroll and logistics. Understanding unseen reliance is important for business as they examine their networks and work together to identify vulnerabilities to bolster national cyber resilience. We explore the importance of adopting digital identities and ethical AI, as well as quantum computing, pivotal for Australia and the Pacific region’s cyber security. The discussion includes the collective uplift across the Commonwealth and the necessity of maintaining robust cybersecurity standards to ensure national resilience. Lieutenant General Michelle McGuinness is Australia’s National Cyber Security Coordinator. Prior to this appointment, she served as Deputy Director Commonwealth Integration in the US Defense Intelligence Agency, a Five Eye position as the most senior foreign officer in the US intelligence community. She has served in the Australian Defence Force for 30 years in a range of tactical, operational, and strategic roles in Australia and overseas.Resources mentioned in the recording:· Risky Biz https://risky.biz · www.cyber.gov.au This podcast was recorded on the lands of the Gadigal people, and we pay our respects to their Elders past, present and emerging. We acknowledge their continuing connection to land, sea and community, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.Thanks to the talents of those involved. Music by Dr Paul Mac and production by Elliott Brennan.

In this episode of the Technology & Security podcast, host Dr. Miah Hammond-Errey is joined by investigative journalist and author Byron Tau. They discuss the intricate and often opaque world of data brokers and global surveillance. Tau, known for his deep dives into complex subjects, shares insights from his book Means of Control, highlighting the potential misuse of large data sets and the delicate balance between data collection for security and the risk of social control. The discussion traverses the evolution of data brokers, from their inception involving public records to the sophisticated surveillance technologies of today. Tau elaborates on how everyday devices like mobile phones and fitness trackers contribute to the extensive surveillance network, often without user awareness, raising critical concerns about privacy and the power dynamics at play. The episode also explores the real-world implications of data misuse in both democratic and authoritarian regimes. Tau provides a nuanced perspective on the Russian interference in the 2016 US election, China's use of TikTok for data collection and content management and the geopolitical complexities of technology in diplomacy. He shares the story of Operation Gallant Phoenix, a multinational effort against ISIS using unclassified data to enhance international cooperation. The conversation touches on the concerns surrounding TikTok's data practices and content manipulation, and need for careful policy considerations. Tau's reflections on the current technology environment, the challenges for leaders, and his personal journey of writing his book add depth to this engaging discussion, making it a must-listen for anyone interested in the hidden mechanisms shaping our digital age.Resources mentioned in the recording: · Byron Tau (2024) Means of Control , Crown https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/706321/means-of-control-by-byron-tau/· NOTUS https://www.notus.org· Miah Hammond-Errey (2024) Big Data, Emerging Technologies and Intelligence: National Security Disrupted (20% discount code for book AFL04) https://www.routledge.com/Big-Data-Emerging-Technologies-and-Intelligence-National-Security-Disrupted/Hammond-Errey/p/book/9781032485584· https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/byte-sized-diplomacy-should-australia-ban-tiktok· https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/62919887-the-peacock-and-the-sparrow This podcast was recorded on the lands of the Gadigal people, and we pay our respects to their Elders past, present and emerging. We acknowledge their continuing connection to land, sea and community, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. Thanks to the talents of those involved. Music by Dr Paul Mac and production by Elliott Brennan.

In this episode, Dr. Miah Hammond-Errey is joined by Elisabeth Braw. This discussion explores the decline in globalisation and an increasingly divided world with the West on one side and China and Russia on another. It highlights the impacts of geopolitical rifts on technology, innovation, business, supply chain vulnerabilities and complexities, subsea cables and infrastructure as well as consumer prices and job market changes. They also discuss the tech sector, the role of technology in warfare, and the implications of foreign investments in critical infrastructure as well as hybrid threats, information operations and resilience and national security responses. This episode provides a nuanced exploration of how the convergence of technology, security, and geopolitics shapes our world. Elisabeth Braw is a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council, a member of the National Preparedness Commission in the UK a columnist and author. Resources mentioned in the recording: · Braw, E (2024) Goodbye Globalization The Return of a Divided World , Yale University Press https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300272277/goodbye-globalization/· Braw, E (2022) The Defender's Dilemma· Braw, E (2019) God's Spies This podcast was recorded on the lands of the Gadigal people, and we pay our respects to their Elders past, present and emerging. We acknowledge their continuing connection to land, sea and community, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. Thanks to the talents of those involved. Music by Dr Paul Mac and production by Elliott Brennan. Transcript check against delivery Dr Miah Hammond-Errey: [00:00:02] Welcome to Technology and Security. TS is a podcast exploring the intersections of emerging technologies and national security. I'm your host, Doctor Miah Hammond-Errey. My guest today is Elisabeth Braw. Elisabeth is a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council and a columnist for Foreign Policy and Politico Europe. Her work focuses on hybrid and grey zone threats, as well as the intersection of geopolitics and globalisation. She's a member of the National Preparedness Commission in the UK, and has previously held numerous high profile senior research fellow positions in the US and Europe. She recently published Goodbye Globalization The Return of a Divided World and is the author of two earlier books, The Defender's Dilemma and one about East Germany's secret police called God's Spies. So happy to have you here, Elisabeth. Elisabeth Braw: [00:00:57] It's a pleasure to join you. Dr Miah Hammond-Errey: [00:00:58] I'm coming to you today from the lands of the Gadigal people. We pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging here and wherever you're listening. We acknowledge their continuing connection to land, sea, and community and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. Dr Miah Hammond-Errey: [00:01:17] So you're joining me today after an extensive book tour for Goodbye, Globalization The Return of a Divided World. What are the key questions you're being asked at those events? Elisabeth Braw: [00:01:28] I think the the most frequently asked question is what that means. Uh, what is this standoff and growing, um, disharmony between the West? Uh, on one hand and and some sort of loose grouping of China and Russia on the other. And what it means not just for companies, not just for countries, but for for us as ordinary people. What is clear, I think, from a citizen perspective, is that if globalisation stops working as well as as it did in in the early 2000, which was really the, the peak of, of globalized harmony, if that's no longer there, which is already the case, then eventually it will lead to higher consumer prices. So we as ordinary citizens have benefited from this extraordinary commercial integration of nations of all types and varieties. And now the two of the most important participants in that globalized economy, Russia and China, are each, for their own reasons, not as fully integrated as they used to be. And Russia is, is, is, uh, essentially shut out of the globalized economy and operating in a parallel economy. And, uh, China is for completely different reasons, um, not as hospitable a country as it used to be for Western businesses. And all of this together means that, uh. It will be more expensive to do business to produce the goods that you and I and everybody else use. Every day we will see a return of of jobs, high quality jobs, and and especially manufacturing to our countries at the same time as we'll see high consumer prices. We will see lots of changes ahead. And I think that's why it's so it's a subject that is so interesting to, to all kinds of people, not just business people, not just policy types, but basically anybody who lives in in a modern economy. Dr Miah Hammond-Errey: [00:03:29] What do you see as the biggest issues within that framing for technology and security? Elisabeth Braw: [00:03:33] So the technology that we have today is, is, is the result of extraordinary development, innovation, uh, over the past 40 years. Uh, and I'm sure your listeners remember Parc Palo Alto Research Center, which is where a lot of this began back a decades ago. And then from, uh, the late 80s and especially from the 90s onwards, we had this extraordinary rise of technology, which is, of course, so ubiquitous today that that we as ordinary citizens, uh, spend essentially every, every hour of every day connected to technology somehow or using technology somehow. And, and that worked so well because it took place in conjunction with globalisation, borders were becoming less important and almost faded away. Um, we also had peace between, uh, yeah, the world's most important countries and that, uh, of course, facilitated collaboration. So you could be a citizen of any of the world's countries and work for any technology company and indeed do business almost anywhere. Uh, and that is no longer the case. The standoff between the US and China, in particular, uh, centers a lot on technology. And interestingly, tech bosses have been the slowest to catch on to this geopolitical shift because they they have come to, uh, they've had that formative experience in, in a completely integrated world. And I think they just can't conceptualize that geopolitics should be able to affect the way they do business because they don't feel geopolitical. Well, it doesn't matter whether you feel geopolitical. The world is becoming more geopolitical, whereas more old fashioned, uh, or the bosses in more traditional sectors, manufacturing and so forth. I think they've been, uh, faster to catch on to this because they, they are seeing, uh, the reality on the ground. Whereas tech bosses, I think, are thinking that in a shorter perspective. Either way, they have been the slowest, among the slowest to catch on to this new trend. And, um. That's why they're having such a painful learning experience at the moment. Dr Miah Hammond-Errey: [00:05:59] The podcast has a new segment for 2024 called Interdependencies and Vulnerabilities. Given its centrality to your w...