The 80/20 Principle

In this episode, we talk with tax litigator Brandon Siegal about why Microsoft Copilot has gone from a disappointing experiment to a genuinely useful AI tool for legal work. We unpack what changed with Microsoft's latest updates, including direct Word editing, deeper research capabilities, and new ways to connect AI with the documents and systems lawyers already use every day. You'll also hear Brandon explain his "braiding" approach—combining multiple AI tools so they strengthen each other's output—and why he believes Google Gemini remains one of the most overlooked options for lawyers. Whether you are testing Copilot, comparing AI platforms, or building a smarter workflow, this conversation offers practical ideas for getting more value from the tools available right now. Chapters 0:05 Copilot Skeptic To Believer 2:00 Brandon's AI Journey 7:18 Wave 3 And Word Editing 13:02 Braiding Multiple AI Tools 14:46 Deep Research And Cowork23:54 Why Gemini Stands Out Resource Links AI Lab (a weekly AI workshop for lawyers) LinkedIn post by attorney offering AI chatbot that protects privilege The Inner Circle (my online community for lawyers) The 80/20 Principle (my techlaw newsletter) Follow and Review: I'd love for you to follow me if you haven't yet. Click that purple '+' in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. I'd love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select "Ratings and Reviews" and "Write a Review" then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast. Thanks to the sponsor: Smith.ai Smith.ai is an amazing virtual receptionist service that specializes in working with solo and small law firms. When you hire Smith.ai, you're hiring well-trained, friendly receptionists who can respond to callers in English or Spanish. And they have a special offer for podcast listeners where you can get an extra $100 discount with promo code ERNIE100. Sign up for a risk-free start with a 14-day money-back guarantee now (and learn more) at smith.ai.

In this episode, we explore how lawyers can adapt to rapid AI advancements by shifting from billable hours to outcome-based, flat-fee services. We'll discuss creating a better client journey, using AI to improve research efficiency, and offering privileged, flat-fee AI-driven legal searches as a way to stay relevant and attract clients. Chapters 00:00 Breaking Free from the Billable Hour 05:04 The Shift Towards Client-Centric Outcomes 10:24 Leveraging AI for Legal Services Resource Links AI Lab (a weekly AI workshop for lawyers) LinkedIn post by attorney offering AI chatbot that protects privilege The Inner Circle (my online community for lawyers) The 80/20 Principle (my techlaw newsletter) Follow and Review: I'd love for you to follow me if you haven't yet. Click that purple '+' in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. I'd love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select "Ratings and Reviews" and "Write a Review" then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast. Thanks to the sponsor: Smith.ai Smith.ai is an amazing virtual receptionist service that specializes in working with solo and small law firms. When you hire Smith.ai, you're hiring well-trained, friendly receptionists who can respond to callers in English or Spanish. And they have a special offer for podcast listeners where you can get an extra $100 discount with promo code ERNIE100. Sign up for a risk-free start with a 14-day money-back guarantee now (and learn more) at smith.ai.

In this episode, we'll examine how AI has made recording conversations effortless—and why that convenience poses legal, ethical, and moral challenges for lawyers. We'll break down the risks of passive and stealth recording, including issues around consent, biometric privacy laws, and client trust. And you'll get simple, practical tips for using recording tools transparently while maintaining professionalism and integrity. Chapter Markers 0:00 The Rise of Frictionless Recording 1:00 AI Tools Enable Passive Recording 2:30 Why Lawyers Record Conversations 4:00 Legal Risks of AI Recordings 5:00 Biometric Privacy and AI Tools 6:30 Ethical and Client Trust Issues 7:20 Moral Implications of Covert Recording 8:30 Practical Recording Best Practices 9:45 Transparency, Sharing, and Final Thoughts Resource Links AI Lab (a weekly AI workshop for lawyers) Apply to join the ChatGPT Lab The 80/20 Principle (my techlaw newsletter) The Inner Circle (my online community for lawyers) Follow and Review: I'd love for you to follow me if you haven't yet. Click that purple '+' in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. I'd love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select "Ratings and Reviews" and "Write a Review" then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast. Thanks to the sponsor: Smith.ai Smith.ai is an amazing virtual receptionist service that specializes in working with solo and small law firms. When you hire Smith.ai, you're hiring well-trained, friendly receptionists who can respond to callers in English or Spanish. And they have a special offer for podcast listeners where you can get an extra $100 discount with promo code ERNIE100. Sign up for a risk-free start with a 14-day money-back guarantee now (and learn more) at smith.ai.

Show Notes In this podcast episode, Ernie Svenson interviews Dorna At Gavel, a former attorney turned tech entrepreneur, about her journey in creating Gavel, a legal technology platform. Dorna shares her experiences in building Gavel Workflows and Gavel Exec, tools designed to automate document creation and enhance legal drafting with AI. The conversation explores the integration of these tools with Microsoft Word, the importance of user experience, and the future of AI in the legal field. Dorna addresses common misconceptions about AI, the concept of 'vibe lawyering,' and how these technologies can empower lawyers to focus on more meaningful work while improving efficiency. Takeaways Dorna transitioned from law to tech to help domestic violence survivors. Gavel Workflows automates document creation for legal professionals. Gavel Exec serves as an AI copilot within Microsoft Word. The platform is designed to enhance collaboration and efficiency. AI tools can help lawyers focus on higher-level tasks. Misconceptions about AI include fears of job loss in the legal field. Vibe lawyering encourages creative legal thinking with AI assistance. Training junior associates can be streamlined using AI playbooks. Gavel Exec integrates with existing workflows to improve productivity. The future of legal practice will likely include AI as a standard tool. Resource Links AI Lab (a weekly AI workshop for lawyers) The 80/20 Principle (my techlaw newsletter) The Inner Circle (my online community for lawyers) Follow and Review: I'd love for you to follow me if you haven't yet. Click that purple '+' in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. I'd love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select "Ratings and Reviews" and "Write a Review" then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast. Thanks to the sponsor: Smith.ai Smith.ai is an amazing virtual receptionist service that specializes in working with solo and small law firms. When you hire Smith.ai, you're hiring well-trained, friendly receptionists who can respond to callers in English or Spanish. And they have a special offer for podcast listeners where you can get an extra $100 discount with promo code ERNIE100. Sign up for a risk-free start with a 14-day money-back guarantee now (and learn more) at smith.ai.

In this episode, California attorney Jeff Lewis and I discuss the recent Clio conference that took place in Boston, which we both attended along with 2,700 other lawyers. There was a lot of discussion about AI and how its growing adoption will impact lawyers in the coming years. We of course will discuss Richard Susskind's Keynote speech, which was a disturbing warning about the massive disruption AI is likely to bring to the legal profession. Jeff called it a "gut punch" and you'll want to hear why he found Susskind's speech so unsettling. Topics Discussed Clio's New AI Tools and Integration Plans The Legal Trends Report and Data Insights Clio's 1$ Billion V-Lex Acquisition and what it means Peggy Gruenke's KPI Session Takeaways Richard Susskind's take on AI and the Future of Law AI Adoption Challenges and Lawyer Resistance Future of Legal Careers and AI Skills Lawyer Reactions to Susskind's AI Predictions Resource Links Ernie's LinkedIn post summarizing Susskind's speech Jeff Lewis's law firm website Jeff's legal podcast AI Lab (a weekly AI workshop for lawyers) The 80/20 Principle (my techlaw newsletter) The Inner Circle (my online community for lawyers) Follow and Review: I'd love for you to follow me if you haven't yet. Click that purple '+' in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. I'd love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select "Ratings and Reviews" and "Write a Review" then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast. Thanks to the sponsor: Smith.ai Smith.ai is an amazing virtual receptionist service that specializes in working with solo and small law firms. When you hire Smith.ai, you're hiring well-trained, friendly receptionists who can respond to callers in English or Spanish. And they have a special offer for podcast listeners where you can get an extra $100 discount with promo code ERNIE100. Sign up for a risk-free start with a 14-day money-back guarantee now (and learn more) at smith.ai.

Email isn't dead—it's dominating. In this episode, email marketing expert Tyler Cook explains why email remains the highest ROI marketing channel for lawyers (and just about everyone else). You'll learn: Why email still outperforms social media by a mile What kind of emails people actually want to read The 3 automations every lawyer should set up—no exceptions How to use AI to write powerful emails fast (without sounding robotic) The truth about open rates, sender reputation, and avoiding spam filters Whether you're brand new to email marketing or ready to take your list to the next level, this episode gives you a clear roadmap—and some surprising tactics most lawyers miss. Plus: Tyler shares his favorite pro-level deliverability tips, and how even a tiny list can bring in big results when used the right way. Resource Links Tyler Cook: LinkedIn profile Tyler Cook: Hypermedia website Tyler Cook: newsletter about email marketing Rand Fiskin (SEO expert) Perry Marshall (author of 80/20 Marketing book) Neverbounce (email verification) Beehiiv (email platform for newsletters) Hubspot (CRM and email sending platform) Dean Jackson (email marketing guru) Hoppy Copy (helps write good emails) Jarvis (AI-powered marketing copy) Copy.ai (marketing copy assistant) Google Alerts (get automatically notified of important news) AI Lab (a weekly AI workshop for lawyers) The 80/20 Principle (my techlaw newsletter) The Inner Circle (my online community for lawyers) Follow and Review: I'd love for you to follow me if you haven't yet. Click that purple '+' in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. I'd love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select "Ratings and Reviews" and "Write a Review" then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast. Thanks to the sponsor: Smith.ai Smith.ai is an amazing virtual receptionist service that specializes in working with solo and small law firms. When you hire Smith.ai, you're hiring well-trained, friendly receptionists who can respond to callers in English or Spanish. And they have a special offer for podcast listeners where you can get an extra $100 discount with promo code ERNIE100. Sign up for a risk-free start with a 14-day money-back guarantee now (and learn more) at smith.ai.

AI is changing how people search for lawyers, and that means your website has to do more than just "look professional." In this episode, Megan Hargroder (of Legends Legal Marketing) explains what works—and what doesn't—when it comes to getting found online today. Megan also shares a powerful new strategy for ranking ethically while building long-term trust with potential clients. Episode Links Legends Legal Marketing website Book a free strategy call with Megan AI Lab (a weekly AI workshop for lawyers) The 80/20 Principle (my techlaw newsletter) The Inner Circle (my online community for lawyers) Follow and Review: I'd love for you to follow me if you haven't yet. Click that purple '+' in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. I'd love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select "Ratings and Reviews" and "Write a Review" then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast. Thanks to the sponsor: Smith.ai Smith.ai is an amazing virtual receptionist service that specializes in working with solo and small law firms. When you hire Smith.ai, you're hiring well-trained, friendly receptionists who can respond to callers in English or Spanish. And they have a special offer for podcast listeners where you can get an extra $100 discount with promo code ERNIE100. Sign up for a risk-free start with a 14-day money-back guarantee now (and learn more) at smith.ai.

As AI tools become more prevalent in law practice, how do we keep our client data secure? In this episode, we address the biggest risks lawyers face and how to navigate them without losing the benefits of tools like ChatGPT. You'll hear the latest insights from a consensus group of 30 legal pros, including what paid AI tools to trust, how to enable privacy settings, and why redacting sensitive info (and getting client consent) is non-negotiable. Plus, a behind-the-scenes look at the ChatGPT Lab—your go-to hub for safe, effective AI use in law. General Resources OpenAI's FAQs on Memory Handling Carolyn Elefant's AI 'Teach-In' for Lawyers (get recordings here) Other Resources AI Lab (a weekly AI workshop for lawyers) The 80/20 Principle (my techlaw newsletter) The 5 Pillars of a Tech-Powered Law Practice The Inner Circle (my online community for lawyers) Follow and Review: I'd love for you to follow me if you haven't yet. Click that purple '+' in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. I'd love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select "Ratings and Reviews" and "Write a Review" then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast. Thanks to the sponsor: Smith.ai Smith.ai is an amazing virtual receptionist service that specializes in working with solo and small law firms. When you hire Smith.ai, you're hiring well-trained, friendly receptionists who can respond to callers in English or Spanish. And they have a special offer for podcast listeners where you can get an extra $100 discount with promo code ERNIE100. Sign up for a risk-free start with a 14-day money-back guarantee now (and learn more) at smith.ai.

How can a solo personal injury lawyer run a leaner, more profitable practice without sacrificing client service? Lee Rudin, a New Orleans-based attorney, shares the tech stack and outsourcing strategies that help him do exactly that. In this episode, you'll discover: The tools Lee swears by—like Text Expander, Demands AI, and File Vine—and how they save him hours every week How virtual assistants fit into his system and boost efficiency His approach to marketing with short-form video and social media to attract ideal clients Whether you're drowning in admin work or looking to future-proof your firm, Lee's approach offers a real-world blueprint for using tech to scale smartly. General Resources Lee's Website: https://getrude.com Lee's Phone #: 833-GET-RUDE (toll-free number) Follow @GetRudeLaw on: Instagram, TikTok, YouTube Other Resources AI Lab (a weekly AI workshop for lawyers) The 80/20 Principle (my techlaw newsletter) The 5 Pillars of a Tech-Powered Law Practice The Inner Circle (my online community for lawyers) Follow and Review: I'd love for you to follow me if you haven't yet. Click that purple '+' in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. I'd love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select "Ratings and Reviews" and "Write a Review" then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast. Thanks to the sponsor: Smith.ai Smith.ai is an amazing virtual receptionist service that specializes in working with solo and small law firms. When you hire Smith.ai, you're hiring well-trained, friendly receptionists who can respond to callers in English or Spanish. And they have a special offer for podcast listeners where you can get an extra $100 discount with promo code ERNIE100. Sign up for a risk-free start with a 14-day money-back guarantee now (and learn more) at smith.ai.

Wisper Flow is a no-fuss AI-powered dictation tool that helps you put words into documents or emails three times faster than typing. Because it's powered by AI, it can pick up your style and get better over time. Also, it works fabulously with apps like ChatGPT and Perplexity. In this episode, you'll learn exactly how it can streamline your workflows and free your mind for higher-level work. Resource links Wisper Flow (special discount link) Other Resources The 80/20 Principle (my techlaw newsletter) The 5 Pillars of a Tech-Powered Law Practice The Inner Circle (my online community for lawyers) AI Lab (a weekly AI workshop for lawyers) Follow and Review: I'd love for you to follow me if you haven't yet. Click that purple '+' in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. I'd love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select "Ratings and Reviews" and "Write a Review" then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast. Thanks to the sponsor: Smith.ai Smith.ai is an amazing virtual receptionist service that specializes in working with solo and small law firms. When you hire Smith.ai, you're hiring well-trained, friendly receptionists who can respond to callers in English or Spanish. And they have a special offer for podcast listeners where you can get an extra $100 discount with promo code ERNIE100. Sign up for a risk-free start with a 14-day money-back guarantee now (and learn more) at smith.ai.

In a world where we rely on digital tools to remember things, the ancient art of memory training seems to have been forgotten. Which is a shame because memory training provides many advantages—especially for lawyers who need to retain vast amounts of information. In this episode, memory expert Anthony Metivier explains how to develop extraordinary recall using personalized techniques that make memorizing more engaging and effective. If you've ever wanted a sharper memory and a stronger mind, you'll relish what you'll learn in this episode. In this episode, you will hear: Learn about memory palaces and association strategies for organizing and recalling complex information. Discover real-world applications of memory mastery, especially in professions like law, for better persuasion and connection. Personalization of memory techniques for effective long-term retention and practical everyday use. Embrace the transformative power of memory training for personal growth and cognitive enhancement. Resources from this Episode About Anthony Metivier Magnetic Memory Course by Anthony Metivier Anthony's podcast: Magnetic Memory Method My blog post on How to Improve Memory Using Proven Techniques General Resources Click for a list of the Best Tech Tools for Lawyers Subscribe to: The 80/20 Principle Check out my Law Firm Systems Intensive Join: '80/20 Inner Circle' (valuable business insights for small firm owners) Read: The 80/20 Principle: The Secret of Achieving More with Less, by Richard Koch AI Lab (a weekly AI workshop for lawyers) Other Resources The 80/20 Principle (email newsletter) The 5 Pillars of a Tech-Powered Law Practice The Inner Circle (online community for law firm owners) Follow and Review: We'd love for you to follow us if you haven't yet. Click that purple '+' in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. We'd love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select "Ratings and Reviews" and "Write a Review" then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast. Thanks to My Sponsor Smith.ai Smith.ai is an amazing virtual receptionist service that specializes in working with solo and small law firms. When you hire Smith.ai, you're hiring well-trained, friendly receptionists who can respond to callers in English or Spanish. If there's one great outsourcing opportunity for your practice, this is it. Let Smith.ai have your back while you stay focused on your work, knowing that your clients and prospects are being taken care of. Plans start at $210/month for 30 calls, and pricing starts at $140 for 20 chats, with overage at $7 per chat. They offer a risk-free start with a 14-day money-back guarantee on all receptionist and live chat plans, including add-ons (up to $1000). And they have a special offer for podcast listeners where you can get an extra $100 discount with promo code ERNIE100. Sign up for a risk-free start with a 14-day money-back guarantee now (and learn more) at smith.ai. Episode Credits If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Emerald City Productions. They helped me grow and produce the podcast you are listening to right now. Find out more at https://emeraldcitypro.com Let them know we sent you.

In this episode you'll meet an attorney named Ilona Anderson who was originally from Russia but came to the U.S. when she was sixteen and pursued her passion for law. You'll learn about her first job working in a big Miami firm, where she handled commercial litigation cases. We discuss the importance of using systems and her interesting take on what good systems look like in a law practice. We talked about the best tools to store SOPs, and why she's exploring the use of a popular tool called Notion (and why I recommended she think that decision through carefully). In this episode, you will hear: Ilona Anderson's journey from Russian immigrant to successful Miami attorney and entrepreneur Founding her own employment law practice after facing career challenges and denied flexible work arrangements Importance of systematization and delegation in law practice management Embracing technology and automation tools like MyCase, GoHighLevel, and AI to enhance legal practice Transition from litigation to trademark law to support entrepreneurs Radical responsibility and mindset shifts for personal and professional growth Resources from this Episode Ilona's firm website Ilona's LinkedIn profile Ilona's Substack newsletter Anthony Metivier's free memory training course General Resources Click for a list of the Best Tech Tools for Lawyers Subscribe to: The 80/20 Principle Check out my Law Firm Systems Intensive Join: '80/20 Inner Circle' (valuable business insights for small firm owners) Read: The 80/20 Principle: The Secret of Achieving More with Less, by Richard Koch AI Lab (a weekly AI workshop for lawyers) General Resources Other Resources The 80/20 Principle (email newsletter) The 5 Pillars of a Tech-Powered Law Practice The Inner Circle (online community for law firm owners) Follow and Review: We'd love for you to follow us if you haven't yet. Click that purple '+' in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. We'd love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select "Ratings and Reviews" and "Write a Review" then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast. Thanks to My Sponsor Smith.ai Smith.ai is an amazing virtual receptionist service that specializes in working with solo and small law firms. When you hire Smith.ai, you're hiring well-trained, friendly receptionists who can respond to callers in English or Spanish. If there's one great outsourcing opportunity for your practice, this is it. Let Smith.ai have your back while you stay focused on your work, knowing that your clients and prospects are being taken care of. Plans start at $210/month for 30 calls, and pricing starts at $140 for 20 chats, with overage at $7 per chat. They offer a risk-free start with a 14-day money-back guarantee on all receptionist and live chat plans, including add-ons (up to $1000). And they have a special offer for podcast listeners where you can get an extra $100 discount with promo code ERNIE100. Sign up for a risk-free start with a 14-day money-back guarantee now (and learn more) at smith.ai. Episode Credits If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Emerald City Productions. They helped me grow and produce the podcast you are listening to right now. Find out more at https://emeraldcitypro.com Let them know we sent you.

Nancy Jeng, co-founder of Billables.ai, reveals how passive time-keeping is changing the game for lawyers—capturing billable hours with zero effort and tailoring entries to your style. Learn how this AI-powered tool integrates seamlessly with Clio, Microsoft, and more, while offering surprising benefits even for lawyers who don't bill for their time. In this episode, you will hear: The transformative power of AI in legal timekeeping and billing Seamless integration of Billables AI with platforms like Clio, Microsoft, and Google Automation of time capture processes for precise and efficient billing Overcoming challenges in legal time management with AI-driven tools Versatility of Billables AI for various billing models, including flat fee and contingency-based firms Emphasis on personalization and adapting to individual user preferences in billing practices Resources from this Episode Billables.ai website 1-Minute Video Demo of Billables.ai (YouTube) 2-Minute video from Nancy's demo to my Inner Circle Nancy's email address: nancy@billables.ai By the way, you're eligible for a 50% discount for the first three months of Billables if you mention you came from my podcast. General Resources Click for a list of the Best Tech Tools for Lawyers Subscribe to: The 80/20 Principle Check out my Law Firm Systems Intensive Join: '80/20 Inner Circle' (valuable business insights for small firm owners) Read: The 80/20 Principle: The Secret of Achieving More with Less, by Richard Koch AI Lab (a weekly AI workshop for lawyers) Other Resources The 80/20 Principle (email newsletter) The 5 Pillars of a Tech-Powered Law Practice The Inner Circle (online community for law firm owners) Follow and Review: We'd love for you to follow us if you haven't yet. Click that purple '+' in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. We'd love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select "Ratings and Reviews" and "Write a Review" then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast. Thanks to My Sponsor Smith.ai Smith.ai is an amazing virtual receptionist service that specializes in working with solo and small law firms. When you hire Smith.ai, you're hiring well-trained, friendly receptionists who can respond to callers in English or Spanish. If there's one great outsourcing opportunity for your practice, this is it. Let Smith.ai have your back while you stay focused on your work, knowing that your clients and prospects are being taken care of. Plans start at $210/month for 30 calls, and pricing starts at $140 for 20 chats, with overage at $7 per chat. They offer a risk-free start with a 14-day money-back guarantee on all receptionist and live chat plans, including add-ons (up to $1000). And they have a special offer for podcast listeners where you can get an extra $100 discount with promo code ERNIE100. Sign up for a risk-free start with a 14-day money-back guarantee now (and learn more) at smith.ai. Episode Credits If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Emerald City Productions. They helped me grow and produce the podcast you are listening to right now. Find out more at https://emeraldcitypro.com Let them know we sent you.