The Crime Cafe

My guest interview this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is with the author of two mystery series, Joy Ann Ribar. Learn all about the Deep Lakes and Bay Browning series here! Transcript available here. Debbi (00:12): Hi, everyone. I hope the year is going well for everybody. Today I have as my guest, the author of two mystery series, the Deep Lakes Cozy Mysteries and the Bay Browning Mysteries. She is also a frequent traveler by RV with her husband and has blogged about some of her travels that have included some landmarks of literary note I might add. It is my pleasure to introduce my guest mystery author, Joanne Ribar. I’m sorry, Joy Ann Ribar. I mispronounced your first name instead of your last. Joy (01:35): Something is always bound to trip somebody up. It’s quite right. It’s so nice to be here with you today, Debbi. I feel like I’ve waited for this day forever. Debbi (01:47): I feel like I wait for a lot of things forever. I got to tell you. Yeah, the waiting is the hardest part. Oh boy. Don’t sue me, Tom Petty, please. It was just a small snippet. I didn’t even really sing it. Joy (02:02): Right. Exactly. Anyway, less than 30 seconds. I think you’re good. Debbi (02:05): Oh, there’s no real. Yeah, there is no nothing like that. It’s all very depends on all these factors as they put it. It’s like a combination of factors. Anyway, having said all that, how are you doing today? Joy (02:22): I’m doing really well. Speaking to you from Arizona today, which is a whole lot different than Wisconsin right now. Wisconsin is very snowy. They just got dumped on again and here in Arizona it’s sunny and dry. Debbi (02:38): Oh my gosh. Wow. Yeah, it’s better than … we’ve got snow all over the place here and we have more snow here in Maryland. That’s supposed to be coming, so that’s throwing all sorts of spokes in our … sticks in our spokes, so to speak. Joy (02:55): Right. A wrench in the works. Debbi (02:58): Yeah. Totally a monkey wrench in the works for sure. I mean, it just screws you up all around. Traveling. Any sort of plans you have, who knows? Maybe things will happen, maybe they won’t. Joy (03:10): Right. Debbi (03:11): I’m curious, did you have a career before you started writing fiction or have you always written fiction? Joy (03:17): Oh, definitely. I’ve had a few careers. I started life as a, well, I was a journalist first and worked as a newspaper reporter and an assistant editor and a photographer, and then I went on to work for a law firm as a paralegal. So I did a lot of legal writing, which everything I’ve done seems to be centered around writing. And then I became an English teacher and I taught high school English, followed by college English. And then in 2017 I became a semi-retired part-time teacher. Found out I had a lot of time on my hands and decided I would try to do some writing of my own with fiction. And so I wrote my first book in 2018. Debbi (04:14): And which book was that? Joy (04:16): And that was Deep Dark Secrets, and it was the first in the Deep Lakes Cozy Mysteries. I wrote it in real time. It was January. I was in Wisconsin, looked out the window. It was snowing. It was cold. The streets were quiet, the snow was piling up in the crooks of the trees, and I thought, it’s beautiful out here, but how do I share the beauty of winter with readers who don’t know winter? And that was kind of how all of my mysteries then became set in different seasons in Wisconsin because I wanted to focus on the season even as much as I wanted to give them a good mystery. Debbi (05:02): That’s really interesting. It’s like you’re focusing on a local area and the way it changes over time. Joy (05:10): Yes, yes, exactly. And in that series, which there are five books plus a standalone Christmas book, but I wrote each one in a season and I picked up, I just continued where the last one left off as far as it being set in the same year, but in the next season and in the next season. That was how I set those mysteries, and it really gave the characters a chance to evolve even within their own relationships and in their own maybe quirks and obstacles in life. Debbi (05:50): It’s really fascinating because this is the first time I’ve heard somebody talk so much about setting, the setting as a part of the story. Joy (06:00): And I think for me, because it’s a cozy series, it was so important to have that setting become a place where maybe people wanted to come and visit and escape. It became a central part because it was a small town or it is a small town set in a tourist town, and everybody knows everybody. And so all of the shops have their own kind of personalities, and the people come and go, and they’re recurring characters. So it almost is kind of like a TV series in a way where people can come in and they know exactly what to expect. They come to that town, they come to the bakery, they come to the wine lounge, they go to the waterfall park. They just know what they’re going to get every time they come and visit. Debbi (06:54): Yeah, yeah, that’s really cool. I think our environments do affect us as people, so definitely living in Wisconsin would have a different effect on people than say a person living in Arizona, their environment. Joy (07:11): Definitely. And I think the more I travel, certainly the more I am aware of how local things really are in this really huge country that we live in. And I talked to so many readers who have never been to Wisconsin, and you get your own conception of a place. I mean, I think of Florida and the first thing I think of is Disney World. So people think of Wisconsin, and what I hear from people is, oh, it’s cold there, but it’s not cold all the time. It does get cold, but that’s only part of Wisconsin. And I really wanted people to see that there were so many layers in Wisconsin and so much different kinds of beauty, because again, I think people also think farmland. And there’s a lot more than farmland in Wisconsin too. There’s many different landscapes. Debbi (08:11): Well, Madison is a really nice little town. I went there for a Bouchercon once. I really loved it. It was so walkable. Joy (08:20): It is, and it’s such a popular community. It’s very artsy and cultural and yeah, I love Madison. That’s where I went to college, so it’s kind of one of my favorite places too, to be in Wisconsin. Debbi (08:36): Kind of like the old stomping grounds. Joy (08:38): Yes, indeed. Debbi (08:41): You had, I think, mentioned in one of the descriptions of this series that they’re kind of like standalones in the same place. You could start with any of them? Joy (08:52): What I would say is, I mean, you actually could, but what I would say is there’s a definite arc in my main character. She very much changes from somebody who is very unsure of herself in the beginning because she starts doing this amateur investigative reporting, and she doesn’t know how to ask questions. She doesn’t know who she should talk to. She certainly knows she shouldn’t cross police tape, but she does anyway. And she knows some things about the law because she herself had worked in the legal field for a time before she decided to run a bakery in a wine lounge. (09:40): But there’s a definite arc to her character. Her character changes quite a lot and evolves quite a lot from being that uncertain person as she goes through a lot of different things throughout the series and also even in her relationships. Those change as well. Be that, and after having said that though, I’m a person who, I read series sometimes and there’s 25 books, and I’m not sure I’m going to commit to 25 books. And if I see something and I pick it up and I say, this catches my eye because of the plot line or the concept, I read the back of that book and I tell people the same thing. If you read the back of my book and you say, oh, this is cool. This is about a legendary curse, which is my second book. Oh, this is really cool. This is about birding. If somebody is really into that and says, I just want to pick up book three or four, I say, go for it. Debbi (10:45): But you still have a protagonist who is, I take it a reporter or a … Joy (10:50): She is. Debbi (10:50): Kind of a newbie reporter, Joy (10:52): A newbie reporter. She has a lot to prove. In the first book, she conveys to the readers that she wanted to be an investigative journalist, and the local newspaper editor would not hire her. Instead, he wanted her to hire her to print stories about her winery and recipes from the bakery and things like that. And she took that, took that as a little bit of an insult, like, oh, maybe you’re not taking me seriously because I’m a woman, or maybe you’re just not taking me seriously because you think I just bake for a living. And so it’s an opportunity that happens with her in the first book, is she stumbles upon a crime scene or a suspicious murder. It isn’t even a crime scene, but it’s a suspicious death. And she says, it’s January in Wisconsin. There’s not a lot going on at the bakery. I think I’m just going to poke around a little bit and ask some questions. And so she evolves in the newspaper reporting sideline that she has, and eventually she gets hired by a regional paper to just be an occasional reporter. But lucky for her, even in this beautiful cozy town, there seems to be a lot of murders. Debbi (12:20): Nobody’s immune from murder, even small towns. Joy (12:24): No, exactly. Debbi (12:27): Let’s see. So how is the Bay Browning series different? I noticed that it tends to be more literary focused. Joy (12:36): Yes. So for me, the series was born out of the fact that I was missing teaching literature. I actually really loved teaching literature. I loved having discussions with my high school students about classical books and poetry, and I was missing that. And I thought, well, what can I do? And then somehow this new character came to me and I said, oh, I could write a series that has some literary themes without being too much like literature. So it includes those literary themes, and each one focuses on a different thematic piece of literature. My first one focuses on mythology, and that was one of my students’ favorite subjects. And I thought, well, that’s really approachable and mythology is something that’s loaded with symbolism. And a plot line came to me, and I just created this character who was an English professor. She doesn’t want anything to do with murder investigations. (13:48): She isn’t the least bit interested. She’s introverted. She’d rather just read her books by the fire, grade her papers, stay in her office, teach her classes, and repeat the routine. But murder comes calling to her. It comes calling in a dry cleaning mix up where she ends up with a murder victim’s coat instead of her own. And that’s where she finds a clue. And then she starts to piece things together. And also, her sister is highly involved in the very first book. Her sister lands on her doorstep after she’s been in prison for three years because she’s a con artist and got caught up in fraud and larceny, and now she’s on parole, and now she’s come back to her sister and said, I need a stable place to live, and will you help me out? So they have their own conflicts that they have to work out within the family, but then together they are also able to work on solving the crimes that they end up entangled in. Debbi (15:08): They end up. I love that. I love it when people end up somehow entangled in things. You love that. I mean, that is pretty much the premise of almost every Hitchcock movie. Oh, I’m suddenly entangled in a horrible mess. Joy (15:25): Right. Right. And as of course, for these people, main characters, it happens over and over and over again. But for the rest of us in the real world, you can easily see that there are times you can be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and you can totally understand how it could at least happen once. Debbi (15:46): Yes, absolutely. That’s the thing about fiction. You have to sell it. You have to make people believe it, unlike reality, which is you can’t recreate reality and have people believe it. Reality is stranger than fiction. Joy (16:05): It is. It definitely is. Debbi (16:08): Yeah. So let’s see. How do you choose a topic? I see that you’re really informed by your past doing paralegal work as well as being an English teacher, to which I want to say bravo or brava actually, because I’m always in favor of teachers, good teachers. Joy (16:28): Thank you. Debbi (16:29): Good teachers have kept me sustained throughout the years when I wanted to be a writer, but wasn’t yet, technically, even though I was writing all the time. Joy (16:40): Right. Debbi (16:41): Let’s see. How do you choose, say, a topic, a particular topic for a book? Joy (16:49): That’s a good question. Well, one thing I do is I’m an avid newspaper reader, so of course now newspapers are largely online, so I’m an avid online news reader. And the more you read, the more topics that come to mind. There’s so much going on out there, and there’s so much that’s covered. I think about when, oh, I, when was actually in a real newspaper reporter back in the 1980s, it wasn’t like you might have access to a lot of different topics, but you had to go digging for that. Now it all kind of comes to you. It’s a bombardment. So as I scroll through even headlines and pick and choose and look at the quirky things, or I look at real crimes, I look at just quirky hobbies or quirky, anything that seems of human interest to me. And if I read the article, I might say, oh, there’s just one tiny little thread that I could pull out of here, and wouldn’t that be a great topic for a mystery? And I start and I just go, jot it down. I have a notebook that I keep ideas in, and then I have to test them on my characters because I listen to my characters. And I think, is this true? Does this work in Wisconsin? Does it work? Where they live, where they work, who they are, who they hang out with, their occupation? Is it realistically something that could intersect in their lives? And there’s more ideas than I have time to write at this point. Debbi (18:43): That is so true. The ideas are plentiful. It’s a matter of writing them and creating a story around them. That’s the rub. Joy (18:54): It is. Oh, it is. Debbi (18:55): What kind of writing schedule do you keep? Joy (18:57): I like to write in the morning, and then I will take a break and I will go out for a walk, and then I’ll come back because a lot of times I take a break. Sometimes I take a break, I’m stuck. Sometimes it’s just because I know I’ve been sitting too long and it is time to move. And walking for me is just the place where ideas just loosen up. It’s like a great tool. It’s like great lubricant for the brain, and then I’ll go back at it. So I will try to spend about five hours a day in the writing world, maybe a little longer if things are really flowing. Or as I have a friend who says, if the syrup is pouring, then, then I’ll go a little longer, and I do like five days a week. But if I’m in the thick of a book and it’s really knocking on my door, finish me, finish me, finish me, then I’ll just write every day with just a little breaks in between. It just depends on how driven I feel. And sometimes, and I am a person who does write at the keyboard, so if it’s going, it’s going and I run with it because I don’t like to put the brakes on, if it’s really coming onto the page Debbi (20:36): When you’re on a roll there, you want to keep it going. Joy (20:38): Yes. Debbi (20:39): Absolutely. What authors have you found most inspiring in your own writing journey? Joy (20:47): Ooh, I read a lot of different authors. I mean, I do love so many of the classical authors that I’ve taught, including Jane Austin, which I think probably inspires a lot of women, I suppose. But in the modern world, I really like Mary Roach. She does nonfiction and she writes nonfiction from the most interesting viewpoints, and also by interviewing people with experiences within the book, she writes, she wrote a book called Fuzz, which is when wildlife breaks the law, so the intersection of humans and wildlife and what that looks like. And she also wrote a book called Stiff, which is about the life of a cadaver. I mean, it’s absolutely fascinating. And yeah, it’s intriguing, and it’s so entertaining too. She makes nonfiction very interesting. And in certain memoirs, like Michelle Obama’s memoir was really, I’m trying to remembering things that were more impactful to me. And I don’t just read female authors either, but I do gravitate toward women. I just read The Glassmaker, and I cannot remember the name of the person who wrote it, Khaled Hosseini, who wrote A Thousand Splendid Suns and The Kite Runner. I love the way he weaves the story together. Mitch Albom wrote, he wrote, I mean, obviously for me, his most famous book is Tuesdays with Morrie, and it was the book that I taught in my high school class. So it was such an approachable and relatable book for young adults, and I have a great admiration for everything that book brought to me in my classroom. So there are a lot, a lot. Debbi (23:09): Is there a crime writer that you really like? Either old or new. Joy (23:17): Old school, Agatha Christie, but in the new, I really like John DeDakis. He has written, he’s written a really good series featuring a female protagonist who is also a, she’s a journalist, but also works in the government. Lark Chadwick. His series is remarkable, and he is not afraid to tackle issues that are affecting our society today. So I give him a lot of bonus points. I give any author a lot of bonus points for tackling so many issues that are going on in our society today, because it’s not always easy to do that in real time. It’s a lot easier to do it when you can be retrospectively or historically not easy to do things in real time. It can affect, well, a lot of things, but we’re in a tough business. So I mean, I try to stay, stay on my reader’s good side. Maybe I shouldn’t even admit that on a podcast, but I do. When you’re writing cozy mysteries, I think that you bend towards certain themes and stay away from others. And yeah. Debbi (25:01): There’s a certain amount of comfort I think that people seek from cozy mysteries. It’s okay to tackle tough subjects as long as you can provide that comfort in there somewhere. That’s my sense of it. Joy (25:15): Yeah, no, I agree with you. And in my first series, my Deep Lake series, Frankie, who is my main character, she’s such an idealist, and she’s so interested in the restoration of balance and social justice. So even though it’s a cozy mystery, she likes to weigh in at the end. There’s always a newspaper article that she writes at the end that is her opinion piece. And in that she always wants to talk about, here’s the lesson that should be learned from this crime that happened to our, it happened to our community. That’s how she sees it. She lives in a small town, and it affects the whole community. And so even though I want it to be cozy, I am dealing with, there’s a victim, there’s a victim there, and I feel like that victim needs to have some justice. And what is the message that we can take away? Debbi (26:19): I guess one message is that everybody’s important to a community in some way. Joy (26:24): Exactly. Debbi (26:24): Which is very much a great English teacher message. I love it. Joy (26:29): Thank you. Thank you. Debbi (26:31): Really, honestly, teachers, I just admire teachers. I really do. Let’s see. Do you ever have moments where you just say, geez, what was I thinking? Starting this story? Joy (26:46): Yes. Yeah, I do. I mean, I think plotting is convoluted. You start with an idea, and it seems like such a good idea until you start hammering it out sentence by sentence, chapter by chapter, and then saying like, okay, I don’t know if I have anything else to say, or now I’m here and I have no idea how I’m going to get to this end, that I’ve already created the end, but what’s all this middle stuff that I have to put together yet? And yeah, it’s like you made the most complicated cake and you’ve got one layer, but you dunno what to fill it with. Debbi (27:29): Yeah. It’s funny how you get those moments and then maybe you take a walk and then something comes alive and sparks. Joy (27:37): It does, it does. Debbi (27:38): It tends to work for me, it tends to work itself out with motion and time. It’s like if I take a walk, maybe I’ll stop thinking about it so much, and things will occur, and maybe by the time the walk is over or maybe the next day, it’s like, okay, now I have something. Sometimes if you sleep on it. Joy (28:01): Yes, yes. If you sleep on it, invariably, I’m going to wake up in the middle of the night with the idea and say, I have to get up right now and jot it down. If I just jot down some keywords, I can get it back and then I can go back to sleep. But I think that what you said is so important that I think a lot of times authors feel like, well, this is my job. I better be sitting at this computer every single day hammering this out. And I think just because you have a writing schedule, you also have to know when it’s important to walk away for a while. And I’ve walked away for two weeks and gone back and then reread everything I wrote up to that point, and then realized, oh my gosh, the answer’s right here. Debbi (28:52): Yes, yes. Joy (28:52): I needed to walk away. Debbi (28:54): You have to get away. You can’t see the forest for the trees kind of thing. Just walk away and then look at it again. It’s amazing sometimes. Joy (29:04): It is. It is. Debbi (29:07): It really is. Is there anything, any advice that you would give, you would like to give to anyone who is interested in having a writing career? What advice would you give to somebody starting out? Joy (29:18): Well, a couple of things that maybe a lot of things, but one thing that I think is really important is to join a writing group of whatever kind. When I first started writing, there weren’t any writing groups in my area. I wasn’t sure how to find a writing group, but I found the Wisconsin Writers Association, and I think every state or has a writer’s group or writer’s organization that someone can join. And those people, writers, authors are very generous people. They’re busy, but they’re generous. They’re giving up their time, they’re giving advice and even saying, oh, sure, I’ll read what you wrote, or whatever connection you need, or whatever you don’t know that you need to know, I’ll at least point you in the right direction. So I think that’s important is to not be alone, because otherwise it’s a very isolating place. It’s just you and your world. (30:24): And the other thing that I have actually told some authors is don’t be a perfectionist. Because if you think that you will not finish your book or release your book, publish your book, query your book, until it’s perfect, you will never do it. So you have to let go of that perfectionism, because I think for perfectionists, it’s never going to be good enough. I know, because I taught a lot of perfectionists at the high school and college level, and you have to pry the paper out of their hands and say, just let me read it. No, it’s not good enough. No, just let me read it. And I think writers have to let go of that idea that I need it to be perfect before I’m going to pass it along, because it will never be perfect. Debbi (31:20): That’s right. Perfection is impossible to achieve, and really just let it go. Let it be what it is. Well, I want to thank you so much for being on today, Joy. Thank you. Joy (31:33): Thank you. I appreciate being here. Debbi (31:35): Well, I’m glad you were able to be here. So thanks again. And to everyone listening, please check out my blog or check out Patreon or Substack where I have posted the details of Joy ‘s book giveaway. On that note, thanks again for listening and to my patrons, thank you so much for your support. I really appreciate it. Until next time, take care and happy reading. Be seeing you! ***** Check us out on Patreon!

My guest interview this week on the Crime Cafe podcast is with crime writer and publisher of The Real Book Spy on Substack, Ryan Steck. Also, feel free to download a copy of the transcript here. Debbi (00:52): Hi everyone. Welcome to 2026. Our first show of the new year features the author of the Matthew Redd Thriller Series. He’s also a freelance developmental editor, which is an important thing to have if you’re self-publishing, and an author/publisher of The Real Book Spy on Substack. It’s my pleasure to introduce my guest Ryan Steck. Hi, Ryan. How are you doing today? Ryan (01:20): Hi, Debbi. Thank you so much for having me. Debbi (01:23): I am very happy to have you on, even though you are wearing a Yankees cap. Ryan (01:27): I know. Debbi (01:27): I can live with that. It’s cool. I have Yankee fan friends, even though I’m a Met fan and a Nationals fan. I’m a National League fan. I don’t know. Ryan (01:38): Well, I was telling you before we started to record, I’m actually a Tigers fan too, but I’m from Kalamazoo, Michigan, which is where Derek Jeter grew up. So I always loved the captain and rooted for the Yankees since I was a little kid. Debbi (01:51): Very cool. That’s a very cool reason to root for him, too. Ryan (01:55): Yeah. Debbi (01:55): There you go. So anyway, happy new year. Glad to have you on. Thanks for being with us. What inspired you to write a thriller series? Ryan (02:06): Oh, I think I’ve always loved to tell stories and I love thrillers. I love mysteries. Way before I was actually writing books, a fan of the genre, it was through talking with other authors. So I came from sports journalism and covering NFL teams, primarily the Detroit Lions, and then sort of made my transition into publishing. And at the time, I tried writing for other media outlets, writing book reviews and author interviews, but I didn’t love that I was told what books I had to review or which authors I had to talk to. I wanted to be in control of myself and my own boss. And so I was friends with a lot of the authors that I was covering. And the one thing I kept hearing from everybody is that there’s no one-stop shop for all things thriller. And it was a good friend of mine who was a mentor. (02:58): His name was Ted Bell, New York Time bestselling author, Ted Bell, of the Alex Hawk series. Ted’s a guy I worked with for a while and he really mentored me in writing. But he said, “Buddy, if you build a website, we’ll come. We’ll support you. We’ll be there.” So I launched The Real Book Spy at the end of 2014. And by 2016, we were averaging a million readers a year. And I think by 2018 … Yeah, I think it was 2018, we crossed two million readers for the first time and have hung around two and a half million readers a year or so on that. And I’m super proud of that. But at the same time, I’m so used to being on your side of the conversation that when I did become an author, it took time to learn to be on this side. And I just want to make another note too. The Matthew Redd series is my own books, but I also write now for the late Ted Bell’s estate. (03:49): So the guy that really mentored me that helped me launch The Book Spy passed away a few years ago and initially I took over his series for Penguin Random House. And now we just signed a new three-book deal with Blackstone to continue the Hawk series. So I get to write those too. And I guess what led to me wanting to write my own books, I just always wanted to tell stories. And I bring a different, I think, perspective. A lot of guys in my genre, they’re ex-military, ex-special forces, ex-law enforcement, that kind of a thing. And I’m a father. I have six kids. I’m married. I know family life. People say write what you know. And I don’t agree with that because if I did, my books would all be about a dad who’s trying to figure out how to make it to everyone’s gymnastics and how to volunteer at church and all these other things. (04:43): I believe in write what you want to read. And I love the West and I love lone wolf operators. And I felt like, man, we haven’t seen a lot of that. What does Jack Ryan or Jason Bourne look like out West? And I wanted to explore that. So I was very blessed to have a literary agent. And I said to him one day, “I think I want to write Jason Bourne.” Or I said to him, “I want to write Vince Flynn meets CJ Box, two of my all time two favorite authors.” I remember my agent at the time said, “What’s that look like? ” And I said, “I don’t know, give me a year. I’m going to figure it out. ” And I wrote my first novel, Fields of Fire set in Montana starring a former Marine raider named Matthew Redd and have been fortunate enough to write three books that are already published after that. (05:32): And I’m under contract for two more with the next one coming out this year called Target Down. Debbi (05:40): Wow. So you have something coming out this year, and what are you working on now? Ryan (05:48): Yeah, so it’s actually a big year for me. I have three books out this year. Debbi (05:52): Wow. Ryan (05:53): So I have my second Alex Hawk novel that again, I took over for the late Ted Bell, who’s a mentor and dear friend of mine. Ted Bell’s Warmonger comes out March 31st. And then sometime this summer, my fifth Matthew Redd novel, that’s my own series. And then the franchise I’m most passionate about comes out … I would think we’re targeting July, August, September range. I don’t think we have a pub date just yet. And then my third book is … Actually, the second book I co-wrote with a friend of mine named Simon Gervais. Our first book, The Second Son, is published by Thomas and Mercer. And that book came out officially December 1st, 2025. Already has been a bestseller on Amazon overall and has 6,000 reviews so far and growing in just over a month. So we’re really psyched and our second book in that series will come out in November. (06:50): It’s called The Marked Sun. So it’s a three-book year for me. And I’ve been mostly storing up energy to get ready for this year because of it. Debbi (07:00): Yeah. Wow. Well, congratulations. That’s absolutely fantastic. You’ve had some amazing success with Substack too.That’s really something. Ryan (07:11): Thank you. Debbi (07:14): What do you ascribe? What do you think has led to getting so many subscribers so quickly? Ryan (07:22): Well, I think with The Real Book Spy, there was just really no one-stop shop for all things thriller, and people were hungry for that. (07:32): I didn’t initially launch the site on Substack. It’s just therealbookspy.com still exists. We moved to Substack last August as a way to just build on what we’re doing. And it’s been a great move, not only for us, but for our audience, I think, and a better way to communicate and connect with people. But I look at it as my wife watches the Oscars every year, and I don’t. I’ll look and see who won Best Picture and this and that. I’ve never heard of any of the movies that win, by the way, let alone seen them. I’ve never even heard of them. And it’s funny to me that those are the ones that win, but I’ve seen every billion dollar franchise. I’ve seen every Fast and the Furious or Mission Impossible or the Marvel movies, and those never win awards or accolades. And I really think that in our business and publishing, the equivalent of that is the thriller genre. (08:27): So they go out and sell really well and millions of readers, but they don’t ever win awards. They don’t win literary awards and things like that, but yet people love them. So I think just launching something to give readers more inside access, that was really my approach was to bring you an insider’s perspective to everything happening. So cover all the books for sure. I want you to know what books are coming out, but I also want you to know when authors sign new book deals and interview those writers and cover things a little differently than what anyone else was doing. And I think that really helped us take off for sure. Debbi (09:06): Yeah. Yeah. Doing something a little bit different than everybody else. Ryan (09:11): Yeah, that’s right. Debbi (09:11): Very specific too, for a specific audience. Those are good insights. Let’s see. How often do you publish Book Spy? Ryan (09:26): Frequently. I mean, whenever we have news, we’re trying to put something on Substack every day, every other day at the minimum. Sometimes maybe there’s not enough news going around. So a few times a week, but definitely with Substack, it’s a subscription model. If people are spending $8 a month or $80 a year, I want to make sure you get most bang for your books. So we are for sure rolling out content there. Big things too. I think we’re the only source on the internet that has a full lineup of 2026 releases, every mystery, every thriller in one spot. So it’s content like that. Sure, we’re doing reviews, book announcement, cover reviews, author interviews, but also different type of lists. Again, the goal is always to help good readers find good books. Debbi (10:15): How do you find the books that you feature on your Substack? Ryan (10:20): Oh man, I have a great relationship with a lot of the publishers. That’s required. Yep. I need to know them, trust the marketing teams and the publicists when they send me something, they think it’s probably a fit for our audience and then we need to evaluate is it? I would say that I’m not going to review books I don’t like. So the one thing I don’t do is a lot of bad reviews. And I know that there’s been times in the last 10, 11 years where people have said, “Man, do you just love every book you read because you post a lot of good reviews?” And I said, “Well, no, but I don’t finish books I don’t like.” There’s really no value in it. Writing a bad review doesn’t help me, doesn’t really help you, doesn’t help the author. I don’t want my approach to be, here’s all the books you shouldn’t check out. (11:04): I want it to be, here’s all the books that are available. Here’s the ones I think you’ll like, but everyone has their own taste. And so I might not review a book I don’t like, but I’m smart enough to know that just because I don’t like it doesn’t mean someone else won’t. So we might add it to a monthly reading guide or something like that. But really, I think over 11 years, we got a pretty good feel for what our readers are looking for and we try to tailor everything to them. Debbi (11:30): Yeah, that’s good. That’s an excellent approach. Did you do a lot of surveys or anything of your readership before you launched the Substack? Ryan (11:41): No, not like official polls or surveys. I don’t think we need to because of just the volume of messages and comments and things that we receive and have received for over a decade. So therealbooksbuy.com existed for over a decade before we even launched the Substack. So I felt like people had weighed in enough over the years that we had a pretty good understanding of what it is they were looking for. Debbi (12:05): So you were just getting that feedback anyway? Ryan (12:07): Absolutely. Yeah. Debbi (12:09): That’s fantastic. What authors … Oh, you also do freelance editing. Ryan (12:18): Not so much anymore. I did for a long time, but these days I’m writing three books a year and still overseeing everything Book Spy related, I just don’t have the time. Debbi (12:28): I was going to say, how do you balance out your time? How do you structure your time to fit in this stuff? Ryan (12:35): Yeah, it’s already a challenge. Because again, being an author, being a Book Spy, my first job is really husband and father. So finding balance is something I’ve struggled with for over a decade. And it really wasn’t until last year I decided, look, stuff’s got to change. I have to priororitize this idea that you blink and you miss your kids growing up, it’s so real. (13:00): It’s so real. And the issue that I have is I feel like every time I lock away on deadline to finish a book, I come out of my office and my kids all look five years older. In my head, one of my sons, I literally still picture him as eight, maybe the oldest at 12, and he’s going to be 15 this year. It’s really hard for me. The emotional and sentimental side of me regrets maybe having tied up so much of my time in books over the years. And I wish I would’ve done a better job with balance. And that’s the advice I give a lot of people now is don’t feel like you have to go chase money or careers or this or that. You will blink and your kids are grown and you’ll miss it. You will not feel secure in your financial state. (13:45): You will wish that you were there for your children more. And so really it was last year I made an effort to prioritize that and am very protective of that in 2026. Debbi (13:55): That is the best advice I’ve heard in a long time. I just think that is great advice. And everybody who writes should listen to you. Protect yourself, your time, your personal life, your family. All of these things matter, your community, whatever. Ryan (14:16): Well, there’s that saying the days are slow, but the years fly by, and it’s so true. Debbi (14:20): Very, very. Ryan (14:21): It’s just so true. And I look at that and already I was thinking about this interview last night and just how much my life has changed since I first became published in 2022. And I now have six novels out in that time, and I have three more coming out this year. So it’s been a lot. It’s like drinking from a fire hose. And it’s very easy to lose sight of your most important role as father, husband, if you have kids or a wife or family. But even beyond that, just protecting your personal time and personal relationships. I wish I’d have done a better job with that. And now I’m very vocal in advising others. Don’t make the mistakes that I did and prioritize family. Yeah. Debbi (15:09): Amen to that. Yeah, I hear you. Loud and clear. Boy. What authors have you found to be most inspiring and influential on your work? Ryan (15:20): So Vince Flynn is my all- time favorite writer. He wrote the number one New York Times bestselling Mitch Rapp series. After his death in 2000, I think it was 12, Kyle Mills, who’s a friend of mine, another number one New York Times bestselling author, took over the Mitch Rapp series and wrote in that for about a decade, wrote nine books. And now Don Bentley, another New York Times bestselling author has sort of picked up the mantle and continued it forward and is doing an excellent job. Vince Flynn is by far the writer who’s influenced me the most because he’s the reason I fell in love with books. I have six kids and my youngest son’s name is Mitchell after Mitch Rapp, Vince’s character. And then second to him, CJ Box is just an all-time favorite of mine. Him and Vince are really my 1A and my 1B. (16:13): I look at his career and there’s nothing the guy can’t write. I think his Joe Pickett series is the best franchise in print today, regardless of genre, and I’m really in awe of what he can do. More recent writers, Jack Carr is really this day’s modern Tom Clancy of his generation. Jack Carr, number one New York Time bestselling author of The Terminal List series. Brad Thor is another guy I really enjoy. So for sure, a lot of writers were influential in me. I would say being where I’m at with my Redd series in Tyndale, Josie Rosenberg is an author that really I learned a lot from. And then of course, Ted Bell, who was a mentor to me, and now I write his series. Debbi (16:59): Yeah, yeah. Wow. Sounds like you’ve met some remarkable people too. That helps. Ryan (17:06): Oh, I’ve been so blessed. Yeah. Debbi (17:09): That’s fantastic. You aren’t on TikTok, are you? Ryan (17:14): I think so. Not a lot. Yeah, not a ton. Debbi (17:17): I was wondering if you did BookTok. Ryan (17:18): Yeah, no, I think it’s not as trendy for our genre with thrillers and mysteries and all that, but I do pay attention to it. Debbi (17:28): Well, it’s there. That’s all I can say. Ryan (17:31): It’s there. Yeah, you’re right about that. Debbi (17:33): I’m not there, but it’s there. And apparently publishing is relying on it for some reason. Let’s see. What have you read lately that was a real standout book for you, that really spoke to you in some special way? Ryan (17:52): Yeah. So Brad Thor and Ward Larson, another buddy of mine, they have their first co-written book together called Cold Zero, comes out in February, and I read an advanced copy of that a few months ago, and it is phenomenal. They just announced yesterday that it’s going to be a massive feature film on Netflix, by the way. The book is phenomenal. I’d recommend people check that out. Another writer who’s very near and dear to me is Brad Meltzer, number one New York Times bestselling author of so many books and the host of History Channel’s Decoded and other TV shows. He also writes children books called … It’s the Ordinary People Save the World or something like that. I wish … now it escaped me, but I call them the I Am books because every title is I Am. And he has George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and just historical figures. (18:43): And it’s near and dear to me because I have a son, my son Ryan Jr., who’s autistic. We were told he would maybe never read. And for someone that works in publishing, I kind of refuse to believe that. And I’ll never forget the day I woke up and Ryan Jr. was sitting on the floor reading one of Brad Meltzer’s I Am books. He was reading I Am Abraham Lincoln out loud. And I’m a big softie with my kids, so I start crying and I couldn’t believe it was a big moment. And so I reach out to Brad Meltzer and he sent my son a video of himself, congratulating him. Then he sent a bunch of signed books to my kid. And later when PBS made a TV show, Xavier Riddle and the Secret Museum based off of the I Am books, kids’ books that Meltzer writes, my son was so excited to see that and sent a video to Brad and Brad immediately got right back to him. (19:35): So I really love that guy. But in addition to being one of the best people in publishing, he is a phenomenal writer. And so he’s got a new book that just came out Tuesday, January 6th. Debbi (19:46):The Viper? Ryan (19:46): The Viper. Yeah. That’s a good one. Debbi (19:49): I have a copy. It’s sitting there waiting for me to read it. I’ve got to read this thing. Ryan (19:55): He is one of those guys that, because of what my job is, I always know what the book is about. It’s my job to cover and let you know this book is coming way before I even get to read it. But if I walked away from publishing tomorrow and I knew nothing and I walked in a store and I saw Brad Meltzer’s name on a book, I’d buy it, no questions asked. Debbi (20:14): Well, I have a story about Brad Meltzer. I have never met him actually, but it’s interesting. I have a story about his book, one of his books. (20:24): When I first self-published, this was after, this is a short story about me. I hope you don’t mind. I was with a small press back in 2005 that went out of business nine months after my book came out and I’m like, oh, now what? So then I decided to self-publish and I came out with a book. It’s called Identity Crisis. And the funny thing was there was another book called Identity Crisis out there by Brad Meltzer. I was like, oh my God, we both chose the title. Somebody chose the title, Identity Crisis for him or he chose it. I don’t know which. So I was just like, “Oh my God, we have the same title. How about that? ” So I’ve always felt this weird interest in him. What made you choose that title and what’s your book about? And I never did read it. Ryan (21:16): It’s a good book, I’ll tell you that. It is a good book. Everything he writes is phenomenal. Debbi (21:20): Oh my gosh. Well, I can’t say that mine was phenomenal. It was my first. So forgive me if it wasn’t phenomenal like yours, but still even so. Yeah. So I just think he’s always been kind of interesting to me. So now I have to definitely read that book. Ryan (21:38): Yeah, check out The Viper. It’s a good one. Debbi (21:40): The Viper. Alrighty. Do you read books in other genres or do you not have time for that? Ryan (21:46): Well, I mean, yeah, it’s tough because if I’m being perfectly honest with you, when I’m not working on The Book Spy, I’m not writing one of my books, the last thing I want to do is pick up a book. Generally, I’m more like, let’s do anything else. So yeah, I read nonfiction for sure. I read a lot of books that deal with theology and biblical content, things like that. I read the Bible, I read kids’ books with my children, stuff like that. But I don’t what I would call pleasure read very often, which is like, “Hey, I’m not covering this book. It’s outside of my genre, but it looks cool. I think I’ll check it out.” That’s pretty rare. Debbi (22:32): See, I can’t seem to limit myself. I have to go outside of the genre every now and then. Ryan (22:37): Sure. Debbi (22:38): This sounds like a fascinating sci-fi or fantasy or I got to read this Terry Pratchett book, I haven’t gotten to it yet. Things like that. Ryan (22:47): Yeah. Debbi (22:47): Just like, I don’t know. What advice would you give to someone who’s interested in a writing career? Ryan (22:57): Well, you have to love it. You have to love storytelling. Don’t write one book and then go, okay, I’m going to try to get an agent, try to get a publisher. And if I get one, I’ll keep writing. Writers write. It’s not an agent or book deal or publisher that validates you as a writer. If you’re writing, you’re a writer. So always be writing. That’s my number one piece of advice. Don’t finish a book and start querying it and then do nothing. Keep writing. While you query that book, while you query agents and you’re trying to land one, keep writing. Always be writing. And a lot of times, if you look up your favorite author and you maybe hear how they got into the industry, very few people ever break in with the first book they wrote. They’ll write several before an agent gives them any attention. (23:43): And another writer I really love and a guy I admire so much, Steve Berry. Steve, I think, wrote 12 manuscripts before he got published. I think a lot of people give up way too early. And so just keep writing and put your head down and go write. Debbi (23:58): Yes. Great advice. Absolutely. Is there anything else you’d like to add while we’re on that I haven’t covered? Ryan (24:08): Just that if you’re new to my books, I wrote them that you could, in a way, so you could jump in anywhere. I think there’s probably more value in starting at the beginning with Fields of Fire. So that way you’re familiar with the characters throughout. But if you’re in the bookstore and you see one and it’s not the first one, you really honestly can jump in anywhere and I try to write them so that each story stands on its own and you’ll kind of know what’s happening, but I hope you’ll check them out. And to you, Debbi, just thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Debbi (24:39): Well, it was my pleasure. Very much so, Ryan. Thank you for being here. And I will now switch over. Here I am. Okay, on video. Yes. Thank you very much for being here today, Ryan. I do appreciate it. And I’m hoping to make some changes to both my Patreon and Substack pages. So hopefully there’ll be changes for the better. And if you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Patrons of the podcast get early ad-free episodes along with copies of the Crime Cafe story collections, which include a box set and short story anthology. There’s also a monthly newsletter where I include my reviews, new releases, and other items of possible interest to crime and mystery lovers. So check it out. And until next time when our guest will be Douglas J. Wood, take care and happy reading. Debbi (00:52): Hi everyone. Welcome to 2026. Our first show of the new year features the author of the Matthew Redd Thriller Series. He’s also a freelance developmental editor, which is an important thing to have if you’re self-publishing, and an author/publisher of The Real Book Spy on Substack. It’s my pleasure to introduce my guest Ryan Steck. Hi, Ryan. How are you doing today? Ryan (01:20): Hi, Debbi. Thank you so much for having me. Debbi (01:23): I am very happy to have you on, even though you are wearing a Yankees cap. Ryan (01:27): I know. Debbi (01:27): I can live with that. It’s cool. I have Yankee fan friends, even though I’m a Met fan and a Nationals fan. I’m a National League fan. I don’t know. Ryan (01:38): Well, I was telling you before we started to record, I’m actually a Tigers fan too, but I’m from Kalamazoo, Michigan, which is where Derek Jeter grew up. So I always loved the captain and rooted for the Yankees since I was a little kid. Debbi (01:51): Very cool. That’s a very cool reason to root for him, too. Ryan (01:55): Yeah. Debbi (01:55): There you go. So anyway, happy new year. Glad to have you on. Thanks for being with us. What inspired you to write a thriller series? Ryan (02:06): Oh, I think I’ve always loved to tell stories and I love thrillers. I love mysteries. Way before I was actually writing books, a fan of the genre, it was through talking with other authors. So I came from sports journalism and covering NFL teams, primarily the Detroit Lions, and then sort of made my transition into publishing. And at the time, I tried writing for other media outlets, writing book reviews and author interviews, but I didn’t love that I was told what books I had to review or which authors I had to talk to. I wanted to be in control of myself and my own boss. And so I was friends with a lot of the authors that I was covering. And the one thing I kept hearing from everybody is that there’s no one-stop shop for all things thriller. And it was a good friend of mine who was a mentor. (02:58): His name was Ted Bell, New York Time bestselling author, Ted Bell, of the Alex Hawk series. Ted’s a guy I worked with for a while and he really mentored me in writing. But he said, “Buddy, if you build a website, we’ll come. We’ll support you. We’ll be there.” So I launched The Real Book Spy at the end of 2014. And by 2016, we were averaging a million readers a year. And I think by 2018 … Yeah, I think it was 2018, we crossed two million readers for the first time and have hung around two and a half million readers a year or so on that. And I’m super proud of that. But at the same time, I’m so used to being on your side of the conversation that when I did become an author, it took time to learn to be on this side. And I just want to make another note too. The Matthew Redd series is my own books, but I also write now for the late Ted Bell’s estate. (03:49): So the guy that really mentored me that helped me launch The Book Spy passed away a few years ago and initially I took over his series for Penguin Random House. And now we just signed a new three-book deal with Blackstone to continue the Hawk series. So I get to write those too. And I guess what led to me wanting to write my own books, I just always wanted to tell stories. And I bring a different, I think, perspective. A lot of guys in my genre, they’re ex-military, ex-special forces, ex-law enforcement, that kind of a thing. And I’m a father. I have six kids. I’m married. I know family life. People say write what you know. And I don’t agree with that because if I did, my books would all be about a dad who’s trying to figure out how to make it to everyone’s gymnastics and how to volunteer at church and all these other things. (04:43): I believe in write what you want to read. And I love the West and I love lone wolf operators. And I felt like, man, we haven’t seen a lot of that. What does Jack Ryan or Jason Bourne look like out West? And I wanted to explore that. So I was very blessed to have a literary agent. And I said to him one day, “I think I want to write Jason Bourne.” Or I said to him, “I want to write Vince Flynn meets CJ Box, two of my all time two favorite authors.” I remember my agent at the time said, “What’s that look like? ” And I said, “I don’t know, give me a year. I’m going to figure it out. ” And I wrote my first novel, Fields of Fire set in Montana starring a former Marine raider named Matthew Redd and have been fortunate enough to write three books that are already published after that. (05:32): And I’m under contract for two more with the next one coming out this year called Target Down. Debbi (05:40): Wow. So you have something coming out this year, and what are you working on now? Ryan (05:48): Yeah, so it’s actually a big year for me. I have three books out this year. Debbi (05:52): Wow. Ryan (05:53): So I have my second Alex Hawk novel that again, I took over for the late Ted Bell, who’s a mentor and dear friend of mine. Ted Bell’s Warmonger comes out March 31st. And then sometime this summer, my fifth Matthew Redd novel, that’s my own series. And then the franchise I’m most passionate about comes out … I would think we’re targeting July, August, September range. I don’t think we have a pub date just yet. And then my third book is … Actually, the second book I co-wrote with a friend of mine named Simon Gervais. Our first book, The Second Son, is published by Thomas and Mercer. And that book came out officially December 1st, 2025. Already has been a bestseller on Amazon overall and has 6,000 reviews so far and growing in just over a month. So we’re really psyched and our second book in that series will come out in November. (06:50): It’s called The Marked Sun. So it’s a three-book year for me. And I’ve been mostly storing up energy to get ready for this year because of it. Debbi (07:00): Yeah. Wow. Well, congratulations. That’s absolutely fantastic. You’ve had some amazing success with Substack too.That’s really something. Ryan (07:11): Thank you. Debbi (07:14): What do you ascribe? What do you think has led to getting so many subscribers so quickly? Ryan (07:22): Well, I think with The Real Book Spy, there was just really no one-stop shop for all things thriller, and people were hungry for that. (07:32): I didn’t initially launch the site on Substack. It’s just therealbookspy.com still exists. We moved to Substack last August as a way to just build on what we’re doing. And it’s been a great move, not only for us, but for our audience, I think, and a better way to communicate and connect with people. But I look at it as my wife watches the Oscars every year, and I don’t. I’ll look and see who won Best Picture and this and that. I’ve never heard of any of the movies that win, by the way, let alone seen them. I’ve never even heard of them. And it’s funny to me that those are the ones that win, but I’ve seen every billion dollar franchise. I’ve seen every Fast and the Furious or Mission Impossible or the Marvel movies, and those never win awards or accolades. And I really think that in our business and publishing, the equivalent of that is the thriller genre. (08:27): So they go out and sell really well and millions of readers, but they don’t ever win awards. They don’t win literary awards and things like that, but yet people love them. So I think just launching something to give readers more inside access, that was really my approach was to bring you an insider’s perspective to everything happening. So cover all the books for sure. I want you to know what books are coming out, but I also want you to know when authors sign new book deals and interview those writers and cover things a little differently than what anyone else was doing. And I think that really helped us take off for sure. Debbi (09:06): Yeah. Yeah. Doing something a little bit different than everybody else. Ryan (09:11): Yeah, that’s right. Debbi (09:11): Very specific too, for a specific audience. Those are good insights. Let’s see. How often do you publish Book Spy? Ryan (09:26): Frequently. I mean, whenever we have news, we’re trying to put something on Substack every day, every other day at the minimum. Sometimes maybe there’s not enough news going around. So a few times a week, but definitely with Substack, it’s a subscription model. If people are spending $8 a month or $80 a year, I want to make sure you get most bang for your books. So we are for sure rolling out content there. Big things too. I think we’re the only source on the internet that has a full lineup of 2026 releases, every mystery, every thriller in one spot. So it’s content like that. Sure, we’re doing reviews, book announcement, cover reviews, author interviews, but also different type of lists. Again, the goal is always to help good readers find good books. Debbi (10:15): How do you find the books that you feature on your Substack? Ryan (10:20): Oh man, I have a great relationship with a lot of the publishers. That’s required. Yep. I need to know them, trust the marketing teams and the publicists when they send me something, they think it’s probably a fit for our audience and then we need to evaluate is it? I would say that I’m not going to review books I don’t like. So the one thing I don’t do is a lot of bad reviews. And I know that there’s been times in the last 10, 11 years where people have said, “Man, do you just love every book you read because you post a lot of good reviews?” And I said, “Well, no, but I don’t finish books I don’t like.” There’s really no value in it. Writing a bad review doesn’t help me, doesn’t really help you, doesn’t help the author. I don’t want my approach to be, here’s all the books you shouldn’t check out. (11:04): I want it to be, here’s all the books that are available. Here’s the ones I think you’ll like, but everyone has their own taste. And so I might not review a book I don’t like, but I’m smart enough to know that just because I don’t like it doesn’t mean someone else won’t. So we might add it to a monthly reading guide or something like that. But really, I think over 11 years, we got a pretty good feel for what our readers are looking for and we try to tailor everything to them. Debbi (11:30): Yeah, that’s good. That’s an excellent approach. Did you do a lot of surveys or anything of your readership before you launched the Substack? Ryan (11:41): No, not like official polls or surveys. I don’t think we need to because of just the volume of messages and comments and things that we receive and have received for over a decade. So therealbooksbuy.com existed for over a decade before we even launched the Substack. So I felt like people had weighed in enough over the years that we had a pretty good understanding of what it is they were looking for. Debbi (12:05): So you were just getting that feedback anyway? Ryan (12:07): Absolutely. Yeah. Debbi (12:09): That’s fantastic. What authors … Oh, you also do freelance editing. Ryan (12:18): Not so much anymore. I did for a long time, but these days I’m writing three books a year and still overseeing everything Book Spy related, I just don’t have the time. Debbi (12:28): I was going to say, how do you balance out your time? How do you structure your time to fit in this stuff? Ryan (12:35): Yeah, it’s already a challenge. Because again, being an author, being a Book Spy, my first job is really husband and father. So finding balance is something I’ve struggled with for over a decade. And it really wasn’t until last year I decided, look, stuff’s got to change. I have to priororitize this idea that you blink and you miss your kids growing up, it’s so real. (13:00): It’s so real. And the issue that I have is I feel like every time I lock away on deadline to finish a book, I come out of my office and my kids all look five years older. In my head, one of my sons, I literally still picture him as eight, maybe the oldest at 12, and he’s going to be 15 this year. It’s really hard for me. The emotional and sentimental side of me regrets maybe having tied up so much of my time in books over the years. And I wish I would’ve done a better job with balance. And that’s the advice I give a lot of people now is don’t feel like you have to go chase money or careers or this or that. You will blink and your kids are grown and you’ll miss it. You will not feel secure in your financial state. (13:45): You will wish that you were there for your children more. And so really it was last year I made an effort to prioritize that and am very protective of that in 2026. Debbi (13:55): That is the best advice I’ve heard in a long time. I just think that is great advice. And everybody who writes should listen to you. Protect yourself, your time, your personal life, your family. All of these things matter, your community, whatever. Ryan (14:16): Well, there’s that saying the days are slow, but the years fly by, and it’s so true. Debbi (14:20): Very, very. Ryan (14:21): It’s just so true. And I look at that and already I was thinking about this interview last night and just how much my life has changed since I first became published in 2022. And I now have six novels out in that time, and I have three more coming out this year. So it’s been a lot. It’s like drinking from a fire hose. And it’s very easy to lose sight of your most important role as father, husband, if you have kids or a wife or family. But even beyond that, just protecting your personal time and personal relationships. I wish I’d have done a better job with that. And now I’m very vocal in advising others. Don’t make the mistakes that I did and prioritize family. Yeah. Debbi (15:09): Amen to that. Yeah, I hear you. Loud and clear. Boy. What authors have you found to be most inspiring and influential on your work? Ryan (15:20): So Vince Flynn is my all- time favorite writer. He wrote the number one New York Times bestselling Mitch Rapp series. After his death in 2000, I think it was 12, Kyle Mills, who’s a friend of mine, another number one New York Times bestselling author, took over the Mitch Rapp series and wrote in that for about a decade, wrote nine books. And now Don Bentley, another New York Times bestselling author has sort of picked up the mantle and continued it forward and is doing an excellent job. Vince Flynn is by far the writer who’s influenced me the most because he’s the reason I fell in love with books. I have six kids and my youngest son’s name is Mitchell after Mitch Rapp, Vince’s character. And then second to him, CJ Box is just an all-time favorite of mine. Him and Vince are really my 1A and my 1B. (16:13): I look at his career and there’s nothing the guy can’t write. I think his Joe Pickett series is the best franchise in print today, regardless of genre, and I’m really in awe of what he can do. More recent writers, Jack Carr is really this day’s modern Tom Clancy of his generation. Jack Carr, number one New York Time bestselling author of The Terminal List series. Brad Thor is another guy I really enjoy. So for sure, a lot of writers were influential in me. I would say being where I’m at with my Redd series in Tyndale, Josie Rosenberg is an author that really I learned a lot from. And then of course, Ted Bell, who was a mentor to me, and now I write his series. Debbi (16:59): Yeah, yeah. Wow. Sounds like you’ve met some remarkable people too. That helps. Ryan (17:06): Oh, I’ve been so blessed. Yeah. Debbi (17:09): That’s fantastic. You aren’t on TikTok, are you? Ryan (17:14): I think so. Not a lot. Yeah, not a ton. Debbi (17:17): I was wondering if you did BookTok. Ryan (17:18): Yeah, no, I think it’s not as trendy for our genre with thrillers and mysteries and all that, but I do pay attention to it. Debbi (17:28): Well, it’s there. That’s all I can say. Ryan (17:31): It’s there. Yeah, you’re right about that. Debbi (17:33): I’m not there, but it’s there. And apparently publishing is relying on it for some reason. Let’s see. What have you read lately that was a real standout book for you, that really spoke to you in some special way? Ryan (17:52): Yeah. So Brad Thor and Ward Larson, another buddy of mine, they have their first co-written book together called Cold Zero, comes out in February, and I read an advanced copy of that a few months ago, and it is phenomenal. They just announced yesterday that it’s going to be a massive feature film on Netflix, by the way. The book is phenomenal. I’d recommend people check that out. Another writer who’s very near and dear to me is Brad Meltzer, number one New York Times bestselling author of so many books and the host of History Channel’s Decoded and other TV shows. He also writes children books called … It’s the Ordinary People Save the World or something like that. I wish … now it escaped me, but I call them the I Am books because every title is I Am. And he has George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and just historical figures. (18:43): And it’s near and dear to me because I have a son, my son Ryan Jr., who’s autistic. We were told he would maybe never read. And for someone that works in publishing, I kind of refuse to believe that. And I’ll never forget the day I woke up and Ryan Jr. was sitting on the floor reading one of Brad Meltzer’s I Am books. He was reading I Am Abraham Lincoln out loud. And I’m a big softie with my kids, so I start crying and I couldn’t believe it was a big moment. And so I reach out to Brad Meltzer and he sent my son a video of himself, congratulating him. Then he sent a bunch of signed books to my kid. And later when PBS made a TV show, Xavier Riddle and the Secret Museum based off of the I Am books, kids’ books that Meltzer writes, my son was so excited to see that and sent a video to Brad and Brad immediately got right back to him. (19:35): So I really love that guy. But in addition to being one of the best people in publishing, he is a phenomenal writer. And so he’s got a new book that just came out Tuesday, January 6th. Debbi (19:46):The Viper? Ryan (19:46): The Viper. Yeah. That’s a good one. Debbi (19:49): I have a copy. It’s sitting there waiting for me to read it. I’ve got to read this thing. Ryan (19:55): He is one of those guys that, because of what my job is, I always know what the book is about. It’s my job to cover and let you know this book is coming way before I even get to read it. But if I walked away from publishing tomorrow and I knew nothing and I walked in a store and I saw Brad Meltzer’s name on a book, I’d buy it, no questions asked. Debbi (20:14): Well, I have a story about Brad Meltzer. I have never met him actually, but it’s interesting. I have a story about his book, one of his books. (20:24): When I first self-published, this was after, this is a short story about me. I hope you don’t mind. I was with a small press back in 2005 that went out of business nine months after my book came out and I’m like, oh, now what? So then I decided to self-publish and I came out with a book. It’s called Identity Crisis. And the funny thing was there was another book called Identity Crisis out there by Brad Meltzer. I was like, oh my God, we both chose the title. Somebody chose the title, Identity Crisis for him or he chose it. I don’t know which. So I was just like, “Oh my God, we have the same title. How about that? ” So I’ve always felt this weird interest in him. What made you choose that title and what’s your book about? And I never did read it. Ryan (21:16): It’s a good book, I’ll tell you that. It is a good book. Everything he writes is phenomenal. Debbi (21:20): Oh my gosh. Well, I can’t say that mine was phenomenal. It was my first. So forgive me if it wasn’t phenomenal like yours, but still even so. Yeah. So I just think he’s always been kind of interesting to me. So now I have to definitely read that book. Ryan (21:38): Yeah, check out The Viper. It’s a good one. Debbi (21:40): The Viper. Alrighty. Do you read books in other genres or do you not have time for that? Ryan (21:46): Well, I mean, yeah, it’s tough because if I’m being perfectly honest with you, when I’m not working on The Book Spy, I’m not writing one of my books, the last thing I want to do is pick up a book. Generally, I’m more like, let’s do anything else. So yeah, I read nonfiction for sure. I read a lot of books that deal with theology and biblical content, things like that. I read the Bible, I read kids’ books with my children, stuff like that. But I don’t what I would call pleasure read very often, which is like, “Hey, I’m not covering this book. It’s outside of my genre, but it looks cool. I think I’ll check it out.” That’s pretty rare. Debbi (22:32): See, I can’t seem to limit myself. I have to go outside of the genre every now and then. Ryan (22:37): Sure. Debbi (22:38): This sounds like a fascinating sci-fi or fantasy or I got to read this Terry Pratchett book, I haven’t gotten to it yet. Things like that. Ryan (22:47): Yeah. Debbi (22:47): Just like, I don’t know. What advice would you give to someone who’s interested in a writing career? Ryan (22:57): Well, you have to love it. You have to love storytelling. Don’t write one book and then go, okay, I’m going to try to get an agent, try to get a publisher. And if I get one, I’ll keep writing. Writers write. It’s not an agent or book deal or publisher that validates you as a writer. If you’re writing, you’re a writer. So always be writing. That’s my number one piece of advice. Don’t finish a book and start querying it and then do nothing. Keep writing. While you query that book, while you query agents and you’re trying to land one, keep writing. Always be writing. And a lot of times, if you look up your favorite author and you maybe hear how they got into the industry, very few people ever break in with the first book they wrote. They’ll write several before an agent gives them any attention. (23:43): And another writer I really love and a guy I admire so much, Steve Berry. Steve, I think, wrote 12 manuscripts before he got published. I think a lot of people give up way too early. And so just keep writing and put your head down and go write. Debbi (23:58): Yes. Great advice. Absolutely. Is there anything else you’d like to add while we’re on that I haven’t covered? Ryan (24:08): Just that if you’re new to my books, I wrote them that you could, in a way, so you could jump in anywhere. I think there’s probably more value in starting at the beginning with Fields of Fire. So that way you’re familiar with the characters throughout. But if you’re in the bookstore and you see one and it’s not the first one, you really honestly can jump in anywhere and I try to write them so that each story stands on its own and you’ll kind of know what’s happening, but I hope you’ll check them out. And to you, Debbi, just thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Debbi (24:39): Well, it was my pleasure. Very much so, Ryan. Thank you for being here. And I will now switch over. Here I am. Okay, on video. Yes. Thank you very much for being here today, Ryan. I do appreciate it. And I’m hoping to make some changes to both my Patreon and Substack pages. So hopefully there’ll be changes for the better. And if you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Patrons of the podcast get early ad-free episodes along with copies of the Crime Cafe story collections, which include a box set and short story anthology. There’s also a monthly newsletter where I include my reviews, new releases, and other items of possible interest to crime and mystery lovers. So check it out. And until next time when our guest will be Douglas J. Wood, take care and happy reading. Debbi (00:52): Hi everyone. Welcome to 2026. Our first show of the new year features the author of the Matthew Redd Thriller Series. He’s also a freelance developmental editor, which is an important thing to have if you’re self-publishing, and an author/publisher of The Real Book Spy on Substack. It’s my pleasure to introduce my guest Ryan Steck. Hi, Ryan. How are you doing today? Ryan (01:20): Hi, Debbi. Thank you so much for having me. Debbi (01:23): I am very happy to have you on, even though you are wearing a Yankees cap. Ryan (01:27): I know. Debbi (01:27): I can live with that. It’s cool. I have Yankee fan friends, even though I’m a Met fan and a Nationals fan. I’m a National League fan. I don’t know. Ryan (01:38): Well, I was telling you before we started to record, I’m actually a Tigers fan too, but I’m from Kalamazoo, Michigan, which is where Derek Jeter grew up. So I always loved the captain and rooted for the Yankees since I was a little kid. Debbi (01:51): Very cool. That’s a very cool reason to root for him, too. Ryan (01:55): Yeah. Debbi (01:55): There you go. So anyway, happy new year. Glad to have you on. Thanks for being with us. What inspired you to write a thriller series? Ryan (02:06): Oh, I think I’ve always loved to tell stories and I love thrillers. I love mysteries. Way before I was actually writing books, a fan of the genre, it was through talking with other authors. So I came from sports journalism and covering NFL teams, primarily the Detroit Lions, and then sort of made my transition into publishing. And at the time, I tried writing for other media outlets, writing book reviews and author interviews, but I didn’t love that I was told what books I had to review or which authors I had to talk to. I wanted to be in control of myself and my own boss. And so I was friends with a lot of the authors that I was covering. And the one thing I kept hearing from everybody is that there’s no one-stop shop for all things thriller. And it was a good friend of mine who was a mentor. (02:58): His name was Ted Bell, New York Time bestselling author, Ted Bell, of the Alex Hawk series. Ted’s a guy I worked with for a while and he really mentored me in writing. But he said, “Buddy, if you build a website, we’ll come. We’ll support you. We’ll be there.” So I launched The Real Book Spy at the end of 2014. And by 2016, we were averaging a million readers a year. And I think by 2018 … Yeah, I think it was 2018, we crossed two million readers for the first time and have hung around two and a half million readers a year or so on that. And I’m super proud of that. But at the same time, I’m so used to being on your side of the conversation that when I did become an author, it took time to learn to be on this side. And I just want to make another note too. The Matthew Redd series is my own books, but I also write now for the late Ted Bell’s estate. (03:49): So the guy that really mentored me that helped me launch The Book Spy passed away a few years ago and initially I took over his series for Penguin Random House. And now we just signed a new three-book deal with Blackstone to continue the Hawk series. So I get to write those too. And I guess what led to me wanting to write my own books, I just always wanted to tell stories. And I bring a different, I think, perspective. A lot of guys in my genre, they’re ex-military, ex-special forces, ex-law enforcement, that kind of a thing. And I’m a father. I have six kids. I’m married. I know family life. People say write what you know. And I don’t agree with that because if I did, my books would all be about a dad who’s trying to figure out how to make it to everyone’s gymnastics and how to volunteer at church and all these other things. (04:43): I believe in write what you want to read. And I love the West and I love lone wolf operators. And I felt like, man, we haven’t seen a lot of that. What does Jack Ryan or Jason Bourne look like out West? And I wanted to explore that. So I was very blessed to have a literary agent. And I said to him one day, “I think I want to write Jason Bourne.” Or I said to him, “I want to write Vince Flynn meets CJ Box, two of my all time two favorite authors.” I remember my agent at the time said, “What’s that look like? ” And I said, “I don’t know, give me a year. I’m going to figure it out. ” And I wrote my first novel, Fields of Fire set in Montana starring a former Marine raider named Matthew Redd and have been fortunate enough to write three books that are already published after that. (05:32): And I’m under contract for two more with the next one coming out this year called Target Down. Debbi (05:40): Wow. So you have something coming out this year, and what are you working on now? Ryan (05:48): Yeah, so it’s actually a big year for me. I have three books out this year. Debbi (05:52): Wow. Ryan (05:53): So I have my second Alex Hawk novel that again, I took over for the late Ted Bell, who’s a mentor and dear friend of mine. Ted Bell’s Warmonger comes out March 31st. And then sometime this summer, my fifth Matthew Redd novel, that’s my own series. And then the franchise I’m most passionate about comes out … I would think we’re targeting July, August, September range. I don’t think we have a pub date just yet. And then my third book is … Actually, the second book I co-wrote with a friend of mine named Simon Gervais. Our first book, The Second Son, is published by Thomas and Mercer. And that book came out officially December 1st, 2025. Already has been a bestseller on Amazon overall and has 6,000 reviews so far and growing in just over a month. So we’re really psyched and our second book in that series will come out in November. (06:50): It’s called The Marked Sun. So it’s a three-book year for me. And I’ve been mostly storing up energy to get ready for this year because of it. Debbi (07:00): Yeah. Wow. Well, congratulations. That’s absolutely fantastic. You’ve had some amazing success with Substack too.That’s really something. Ryan (07:11): Thank you. Debbi (07:14): What do you ascribe? What do you think has led to getting so many subscribers so quickly? Ryan (07:22): Well, I think with The Real Book Spy, there was just really no one-stop shop for all things thriller, and people were hungry for that. (07:32): I didn’t initially launch the site on Substack. It’s just therealbookspy.com still exists. We moved to Substack last August as a way to just build on what we’re doing. And it’s been a great move, not only for us, but for our audience, I think, and a better way to communicate and connect with people. But I look at it as my wife watches the Oscars every year, and I don’t. I’ll look and see who won Best Picture and this and that. I’ve never heard of any of the movies that win, by the way, let alone seen them. I’ve never even heard of them. And it’s funny to me that those are the ones that win, but I’ve seen every billion dollar franchise. I’ve seen every Fast and the Furious or Mission Impossible or the Marvel movies, and those never win awards or accolades. And I really think that in our business and publishing, the equivalent of that is the thriller genre. (08:27): So they go out and sell really well and millions of readers, but they don’t ever win awards. They don’t win literary awards and things like that, but yet people love them. So I think just launching something to give readers more inside access, that was really my approach was to bring you an insider’s perspective to everything happening. So cover all the books for sure. I want you to know what books are coming out, but I also want you to know when authors sign new book deals and interview those writers and cover things a little differently than what anyone else was doing. And I think that really helped us take off for sure. Debbi (09:06): Yeah. Yeah. Doing something a little bit different than everybody else. Ryan (09:11): Yeah, that’s right. Debbi (09:11): Very specific too, for a specific audience. Those are good insights. Let’s see. How often do you publish Book Spy? Ryan (09:26): Frequently. I mean, whenever we have news, we’re trying to put something on Substack every day, every other day at the minimum. Sometimes maybe there’s not enough news going around. So a few times a week, but definitely with Substack, it’s a subscription model. If people are spending $8 a month or $80 a year, I want to make sure you get most bang for your books. So we are for sure rolling out content there. Big things too. I think we’re the only source on the internet that has a full lineup of 2026 releases, every mystery, every thriller in one spot. So it’s content like that. Sure, we’re doing reviews, book announcement, cover reviews, author interviews, but also different type of lists. Again, the goal is always to help good readers find good books. Debbi (10:15): How do you find the books that you feature on your Substack? Ryan (10:20): Oh man, I have a great relationship with a lot of the publishers. That’s required. Yep. I need to know them, trust the marketing teams and the publicists when they send me something, they think it’s probably a fit for our audience and then we need to evaluate is it? I would say that I’m not going to review books I don’t like. So the one thing I don’t do is a lot of bad reviews. And I know that there’s been times in the last 10, 11 years where people have said, “Man, do you just love every book you read because you post a lot of good reviews?” And I said, “Well, no, but I don’t finish books I don’t like.” There’s really no value in it. Writing a bad review doesn’t help me, doesn’t really help you, doesn’t help the author. I don’t want my approach to be, here’s all the books you shouldn’t check out. (11:04): I want it to be, here’s all the books that are available. Here’s the ones I think you’ll like, but everyone has their own taste. And so I might not review a book I don’t like, but I’m smart enough to know that just because I don’t like it doesn’t mean someone else won’t. So we might add it to a monthly reading guide or something like that. But really, I think over 11 years, we got a pretty good feel for what our readers are looking for and we try to tailor everything to them. Debbi (11:30): Yeah, that’s good. That’s an excellent approach. Did you do a lot of surveys or anything of your readership before you launched the Substack? Ryan (11:41): No, not like official polls or surveys. I don’t think we need to because of just the volume of messages and comments and things that we receive and have received for over a decade. So therealbooksbuy.com existed for over a decade before we even launched the Substack. So I felt like people had weighed in enough over the years that we had a pretty good understanding of what it is they were looking for. Debbi (12:05): So you were just getting that feedback anyway? Ryan (12:07): Absolutely. Yeah. Debbi (12:09): That’s fantastic. What authors … Oh, you also do freelance editing. Ryan (12:18): Not so much anymore. I did for a long time, but these days I’m writing three books a year and still overseeing everything Book Spy related, I just don’t have the time. Debbi (12:28): I was going to say, how do you balance out your time? How do you structure your time to fit in this stuff? Ryan (12:35): Yeah, it’s already a challenge. Because again, being an author, being a Book Spy, my first job is really husband and father. So finding balance is something I’ve struggled with for over a decade. And it really wasn’t until last year I decided, look, stuff’s got to change. I have to priororitize this idea that you blink and you miss your kids growing up, it’s so real. (13:00): It’s so real. And the issue that I have is I feel like every time I lock away on deadline to finish a book, I come out of my office and my kids all look five years older. In my head, one of my sons, I literally still picture him as eight, maybe the oldest at 12, and he’s going to be 15 this year. It’s really hard for me. The emotional and sentimental side of me regrets maybe having tied up so much of my time in books over the years. And I wish I would’ve done a better job with balance. And that’s the advice I give a lot of people now is don’t feel like you have to go chase money or careers or this or that. You will blink and your kids are grown and you’ll miss it. You will not feel secure in your financial state. (13:45): You will wish that you were there for your children more. And so really it was last year I made an effort to prioritize that and am very protective of that in 2026. Debbi (13:55): That is the best advice I’ve heard in a long time. I just think that is great advice. And everybody who writes should listen to you. Protect yourself, your time, your personal life, your family. All of these things matter, your community, whatever. Ryan (14:16): Well, there’s that saying the days are slow, but the years fly by, and it’s so true. Debbi (14:20): Very, very. Ryan (14:21): It’s just so true. And I look at that and already I was thinking about this interview last night and just how much my life has changed since I first became published in 2022. And I now have six novels out in that time, and I have three more coming out this year. So it’s been a lot. It’s like drinking from a fire hose. And it’s very easy to lose sight of your most important role as father, husband, if you have kids or a wife or family. But even beyond that, just protecting your personal time and personal relationships. I wish I’d have done a better job with that. And now I’m very vocal in advising others. Don’t make the mistakes that I did and prioritize family. Yeah. Debbi (15:09): Amen to that. Yeah, I hear you. Loud and clear. Boy. What authors have you found to be most inspiring and influential on your work? Ryan (15:20): So Vince Flynn is my all- time favorite writer. He wrote the number one New York Times bestselling Mitch Rapp series. After his death in 2000, I think it was 12, Kyle Mills, who’s a friend of mine, another number one New York Times bestselling author, took over the Mitch Rapp series and wrote in that for about a decade, wrote nine books. And now Don Bentley, another New York Times bestselling author has sort of picked up the mantle and continued it forward and is doing an excellent job. Vince Flynn is by far the writer who’s influenced me the most because he’s the reason I fell in love with books. I have six kids and my youngest son’s name is Mitchell after Mitch Rapp, Vince’s character. And then second to him, CJ Box is just an all-time favorite of mine. Him and Vince are really my 1A and my 1B. (16:13): I look at his career and there’s nothing the guy can’t write. I think his Joe Pickett series is the best franchise in print today, regardless of genre, and I’m really in awe of what he can do. More recent writers, Jack Carr is really this day’s modern Tom Clancy of his generation. Jack Carr, number one New York Time bestselling author of The Terminal List series. Brad Thor is another guy I really enjoy. So for sure, a lot of writers were influential in me. I would say being where I’m at with my Redd series in Tyndale, Josie Rosenberg is an author that really I learned a lot from. And then of course, Ted Bell, who was a mentor to me, and now I write his series. Debbi (16:59): Yeah, yeah. Wow. Sounds like you’ve met some remarkable people too. That helps. Ryan (17:06): Oh, I’ve been so blessed. Yeah. Debbi (17:09): That’s fantastic. You aren’t on TikTok, are you? Ryan (17:14): I think so. Not a lot. Yeah, not a ton. Debbi (17:17): I was wondering if you did BookTok. Ryan (17:18): Yeah, no, I think it’s not as trendy for our genre with thrillers and mysteries and all that, but I do pay attention to it. Debbi (17:28): Well, it’s there. That’s all I can say. Ryan (17:31): It’s there. Yeah, you’re right about that. Debbi (17:33): I’m not there, but it’s there. And apparently publishing is relying on it for some reason. Let’s see. What have you read lately that was a real standout book for you, that really spoke to you in some special way? Ryan (17:52): Yeah. So Brad Thor and Ward Larson, another buddy of mine, they have their first co-written book together called Cold Zero, comes out in February, and I read an advanced copy of that a few months ago, and it is phenomenal. They just announced yesterday that it’s going to be a massive feature film on Netflix, by the way. The book is phenomenal. I’d recommend people check that out. Another writer who’s very near and dear to me is Brad Meltzer, number one New York Times bestselling author of so many books and the host of History Channel’s Decoded and other TV shows. He also writes children books called … It’s the Ordinary People Save the World or something like that. I wish … now it escaped me, but I call them the I Am books because every title is I Am. And he has George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and just historical figures. (18:43): And it’s near and dear to me because I have a son, my son Ryan Jr., who’s autistic. We were told he would maybe never read. And for someone that works in publishing, I kind of refuse to believe that. And I’ll never forget the day I woke up and Ryan Jr. was sitting on the floor reading one of Brad Meltzer’s I Am books. He was reading I Am Abraham Lincoln out loud. And I’m a big softie with my kids, so I start crying and I couldn’t believe it was a big moment. And so I reach out to Brad Meltzer and he sent my son a video of himself, congratulating him. Then he sent a bunch of signed books to my kid. And later when PBS made a TV show, Xavier Riddle and the Secret Museum based off of the I Am books, kids’ books that Meltzer writes, my son was so excited to see that and sent a video to Brad and Brad immediately got right back to him. (19:35): So I really love that guy. But in addition to being one of the best people in publishing, he is a phenomenal writer. And so he’s got a new book that just came out Tuesday, January 6th. Debbi (19:46):The Viper? Ryan (19:46): The Viper. Yeah. That’s a good one. Debbi (19:49): I have a copy. It’s sitting there waiting for me to read it. I’ve got to read this thing. Ryan (19:55): He is one of those guys that, because of what my job is, I always know what the book is about. It’s my job to cover and let you know this book is coming way before I even get to read it. But if I walked away from publishing tomorrow and I knew nothing and I walked in a store and I saw Brad Meltzer’s name on a book, I’d buy it, no questions asked. Debbi (20:14): Well, I have a story about Brad Meltzer. I have never met him actually, but it’s interesting. I have a story about his book, one of his books. (20:24): When I first self-published, this was after, this is a short story about me. I hope you don’t mind. I was with a small press back in 2005 that went out of business nine months after my book came out and I’m like, oh, now what? So then I decided to self-publish and I came out with a book. It’s called Identity Crisis. And the funny thing was there was another book called Identity Crisis out there by Brad Meltzer. I was like, oh my God, we both chose the title. Somebody chose the title, Identity Crisis for him or he chose it. I don’t know which. So I was just like, “Oh my God, we have the same title. How about that? ” So I’ve always felt this weird interest in him. What made you choose that title and what’s your book about? And I never did read it. Ryan (21:16): It’s a good book, I’ll tell you that. It is a good book. Everything he writes is phenomenal. Debbi (21:20): Oh my gosh. Well, I can’t say that mine was phenomenal. It was my first. So forgive me if it wasn’t phenomenal like yours, but still even so. Yeah. So I just think he’s always been kind of interesting to me. So now I have to definitely read that book. Ryan (21:38): Yeah, check out The Viper. It’s a good one. Debbi (21:40): The Viper. Alrighty. Do you read books in other genres or do you not have time for that? Ryan (21:46): Well, I mean, yeah, it’s tough because if I’m being perfectly honest with you, when I’m not working on The Book Spy, I’m not writing one of my books, the last thing I want to do is pick up a book. Generally, I’m more like, let’s do anything else. So yeah, I read nonfiction for sure. I read a lot of books that deal with theology and biblical content, things like that. I read the Bible, I read kids’ books with my children, stuff like that. But I don’t what I would call pleasure read very often, which is like, “Hey, I’m not covering this book. It’s outside of my genre, but it looks cool. I think I’ll check it out.” That’s pretty rare. Debbi (22:32): See, I can’t seem to limit myself. I have to go outside of the genre every now and then. Ryan (22:37): Sure. Debbi (22:38): This sounds like a fascinating sci-fi or fantasy or I got to read this Terry Pratchett book, I haven’t gotten to it yet. Things like that. Ryan (22:47): Yeah. Debbi (22:47): Just like, I don’t know. What advice would you give to someone who’s interested in a writing career? Ryan (22:57): Well, you have to love it. You have to love storytelling. Don’t write one book and then go, okay, I’m going to try to get an agent, try to get a publisher. And if I get one, I’ll keep writing. Writers write. It’s not an agent or book deal or publisher that validates you as a writer. If you’re writing, you’re a writer. So always be writing. That’s my number one piece of advice. Don’t finish a book and start querying it and then do nothing. Keep writing. While you query that book, while you query agents and you’re trying to land one, keep writing. Always be writing. And a lot of times, if you look up your favorite author and you maybe hear how they got into the industry, very few people ever break in with the first book they wrote. They’ll write several before an agent gives them any attention. (23:43): And another writer I really love and a guy I admire so much, Steve Berry. Steve, I think, wrote 12 manuscripts before he got published. I think a lot of people give up way too early. And so just keep writing and put your head down and go write. Debbi (23:58): Yes. Great advice. Absolutely. Is there anything else you’d like to add while we’re on that I haven’t covered? Ryan (24:08): Just that if you’re new to my books, I wrote them that you could, in a way, so you could jump in anywhere. I think there’s probably more value in starting at the beginning with Fields of Fire. So that way you’re familiar with the characters throughout. But if you’re in the bookstore and you see one and it’s not the first one, you really honestly can jump in anywhere and I try to write them so that each story stands on its own and you’ll kind of know what’s happening, but I hope you’ll check them out. And to you, Debbi, just thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Debbi (24:39): Well, it was my pleasure. Very much so, Ryan. Thank you for being here. And I will now switch over. Here I am. Okay, on video. Yes. Thank you very much for being here today, Ryan. I do appreciate it. And I’m hoping to make some changes to both my Patreon and Substack pages. So hopefully there’ll be changes for the better. And if you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Patrons of the podcast get early ad-free episodes along with copies of the Crime Cafe story collections, which include a box set and short story anthology. There’s also a monthly newsletter where I include my reviews, new releases, and other items of possible interest to crime and mystery lovers. So check it out. And until next time when our guest will be Douglas J. Wood, take care and happy reading. Debbi (00:52): Hi everyone. Welcome to 2026. Our first show of the new year features the author of the Matthew Redd Thriller Series. He’s also a freelance developmental editor, which is an important thing to have if you’re self-publishing, and an author/publisher of The Real Book Spy on Substack. It’s my pleasure to introduce my guest Ryan Steck. Hi, Ryan. How are you doing today? Ryan (01:20): Hi, Debbi. Thank you so much for having me. Debbi (01:23): I am very happy to have you on, even though you are wearing a Yankees cap. Ryan (01:27): I know. Debbi (01:27): I can live with that. It’s cool. I have Yankee fan friends, even though I’m a Met fan and a Nationals fan. I’m a National League fan. I don’t know. Ryan (01:38): Well, I was telling you before we started to record, I’m actually a Tigers fan too, but I’m from Kalamazoo, Michigan, which is where Derek Jeter grew up. So I always loved the captain and rooted for the Yankees since I was a little kid. Debbi (01:51): Very cool. That’s a very cool reason to root for him, too. Ryan (01:55): Yeah. Debbi (01:55): There you go. So anyway, happy new year. Glad to have you on. Thanks for being with us. What inspired you to write a thriller series? Ryan (02:06): Oh, I think I’ve always loved to tell stories and I love thrillers. I love mysteries. Way before I was actually writing books, a fan of the genre, it was through talking with other authors. So I came from sports journalism and covering NFL teams, primarily the Detroit Lions, and then sort of made my transition into publishing. And at the time, I tried writing for other media outlets, writing book reviews and author interviews, but I didn’t love that I was told what books I had to review or which authors I had to talk to. I wanted to be in control of myself and my own boss. And so I was friends with a lot of the authors that I was covering. And the one thing I kept hearing from everybody is that there’s no one-stop shop for all things thriller. And it was a good friend of mine who was a mentor. (02:58): His name was Ted Bell, New York Time bestselling author, Ted Bell, of the Alex Hawk series. Ted’s a guy I worked with for a while and he really mentored me in writing. But he said, “Buddy, if you build a website, we’ll come. We’ll support you. We’ll be there.” So I launched The Real Book Spy at the end of 2014. And by 2016, we were averaging a million readers a year. And I think by 2018 … Yeah, I think it was 2018, we crossed two million readers for the first time and have hung around two and a half million readers a year or so on that. And I’m super proud of that. But at the same time, I’m so used to being on your side of the conversation that when I did become an author, it took time to learn to be on this side. And I just want to make another note too. The Matthew Redd series is my own books, but I also write now for the late Ted Bell’s estate. (03:49): So the guy that really mentored me that helped me launch The Book Spy passed away a few years ago and initially I took over his series for Penguin Random House. And now we just signed a new three-book deal with Blackstone to continue the Hawk series. So I get to write those too. And I guess what led to me wanting to write my own books, I just always wanted to tell stories. And I bring a different, I think, perspective. A lot of guys in my genre, they’re ex-military, ex-special forces, ex-law enforcement, that kind of a thing. And I’m a father. I have six kids. I’m married. I know family life. People say write what you know. And I don’t agree with that because if I did, my books would all be about a dad who’s trying to figure out how to make it to everyone’s gymnastics and how to volunteer at church and all these other things. (04:43): I believe in write what you want to read. And I love the West and I love lone wolf operators. And I felt like, man, we haven’t seen a lot of that. What does Jack Ryan or Jason Bourne look like out West? And I wanted to explore that. So I was very blessed to have a literary agent. And I said to him one day, “I think I want to write Jason Bourne.” Or I said to him, “I want to write Vince Flynn meets CJ Box, two of my all time two favorite authors.” I remember my agent at the time said, “What’s that look like? ” And I said, “I don’t know, give me a year. I’m going to figure it out. ” And I wrote my first novel, Fields of Fire set in Montana starring a former Marine raider named Matthew Redd and have been fortunate enough to write three books that are already published after that. (05:32): And I’m under contract for two more with the next one coming out this year called Target Down. Debbi (05:40): Wow. So you have something coming out this year, and what are you working on now? Ryan (05:48): Yeah, so it’s actually a big year for me. I have three books out this year. Debbi (05:52): Wow. Ryan (05:53): So I have my second Alex Hawk novel that again, I took over for the late Ted Bell, who’s a mentor and dear friend of mine. Ted Bell’s Warmonger comes out March 31st. And then sometime this summer, my fifth Matthew Redd novel, that’s my own series. And then the franchise I’m most passionate about comes out … I would think we’re targeting July, August, September range. I don’t think we have a pub date just yet. And then my third book is … Actually, the second book I co-wrote with a friend of mine named Simon Gervais. Our first book, The Second Son, is published by Thomas and Mercer. And that book came out officially December 1st, 2025. Already has been a bestseller on Amazon overall and has 6,000 reviews so far and growing in just over a month. So we’re really psyched and our second book in that series will come out in November. (06:50): It’s called The Marked Sun. So it’s a three-book year for me. And I’ve been mostly storing up energy to get ready for this year because of it. Debbi (07:00): Yeah. Wow. Well, congratulations. That’s absolutely fantastic. You’ve had some amazing success with Substack too.That’s really something. Ryan (07:11): Thank you. Debbi (07:14): What do you ascribe? What do you think has led to getting so many subscribers so quickly? Ryan (07:22): Well, I think with The Real Book Spy, there was just really no one-stop shop for all things thriller, and people were hungry for that. (07:32): I didn’t initially launch the site on Substack. It’s just therealbookspy.com still exists. We moved to Substack last August as a way to just build on what we’re doing. And it’s been a great move, not only for us, but for our audience, I think, and a better way to communicate and connect with people. But I look at it as my wife watches the Oscars every year, and I don’t. I’ll look and see who won Best Picture and this and that. I’ve never heard of any of the movies that win, by the way, let alone seen them. I’ve never even heard of them. And it’s funny to me that those are the ones that win, but I’ve seen every billion dollar franchise. I’ve seen every Fast and the Furious or Mission Impossible or the Marvel movies, and those never win awards or accolades. And I really think that in our business and publishing, the equivalent of that is the thriller genre. (08:27): So they go out and sell really well and millions of readers, but they don’t ever win awards. They don’t win literary awards and things like that, but yet people love them. So I think just launching something to give readers more inside access, that was really my approach was to bring you an insider’s perspective to everything happening. So cover all the books for sure. I want you to know what books are coming out, but I also want you to know when authors sign new book deals and interview those writers and cover things a little differently than what anyone else was doing. And I think that really helped us take off for sure. Debbi (09:06): Yeah. Yeah. Doing something a little bit different than everybody else. Ryan (09:11): Yeah, that’s right. Debbi (09:11): Very specific too, for a specific audience. Those are good insights. Let’s see. How often do you publish Book Spy? Ryan (09:26): Frequently. I mean, whenever we have news, we’re trying to put something on Substack every day, every other day at the minimum. Sometimes maybe there’s not enough news going around. So a few times a week, but definitely with Substack, it’s a subscription model. If people are spending $8 a month or $80 a year, I want to make sure you get most bang for your books. So we are for sure rolling out content there. Big things too. I think we’re the only source on the internet that has a full lineup of 2026 releases, every mystery, every thriller in one spot. So it’s content like that. Sure, we’re doing reviews, book announcement, cover reviews, author interviews, but also different type of lists. Again, the goal is always to help good readers find good books. Debbi (10:15): How do you find the books that you feature on your Substack? Ryan (10:20): Oh man, I have a great relationship with a lot of the publishers. That’s required. Yep. I need to know them, trust the marketing teams and the publicists when they send me something, they think it’s probably a fit for our audience and then we need to evaluate is it? I would say that I’m not going to review books I don’t like. So the one thing I don’t do is a lot of bad reviews. And I know that there’s been times in the last 10, 11 years where people have said, “Man, do you just love every book you read because you post a lot of good reviews?” And I said, “Well, no, but I don’t finish books I don’t like.” There’s really no value in it. Writing a bad review doesn’t help me, doesn’t really help you, doesn’t help the author. I don’t want my approach to be, here’s all the books you shouldn’t check out. (11:04): I want it to be, here’s all the books that are available. Here’s the ones I think you’ll like, but everyone has their own taste. And so I might not review a book I don’t like, but I’m smart enough to know that just because I don’t like it doesn’t mean someone else won’t. So we might add it to a monthly reading guide or something like that. But really, I think over 11 years, we got a pretty good feel for what our readers are looking for and we try to tailor everything to them. Debbi (11:30): Yeah, that’s good. That’s an excellent approach. Did you do a lot of surveys or anything of your readership before you launched the Substack? Ryan (11:41): No, not like official polls or surveys. I don’t think we need to because of just the volume of messages and comments and things that we receive and have received for over a decade. So therealbooksbuy.com existed for over a decade before we even launched the Substack. So I felt like people had weighed in enough over the years that we had a pretty good understanding of what it is they were looking for. Debbi (12:05): So you were just getting that feedback anyway? Ryan (12:07): Absolutely. Yeah. Debbi (12:09): That’s fantastic. What authors … Oh, you also do freelance editing. Ryan (12:18): Not so much anymore. I did for a long time, but these days I’m writing three books a year and still overseeing everything Book Spy related, I just don’t have the time. Debbi (12:28): I was going to say, how do you balance out your time? How do you structure your time to fit in this stuff? Ryan (12:35): Yeah, it’s already a challenge. Because again, being an author, being a Book Spy, my first job is really husband and father. So finding balance is something I’ve struggled with for over a decade. And it really wasn’t until last year I decided, look, stuff’s got to change. I have to priororitize this idea that you blink and you miss your kids growing up, it’s so real. (13:00): It’s so real. And the issue that I have is I feel like every time I lock away on deadline to finish a book, I come out of my office and my kids all look five years older. In my head, one of my sons, I literally still picture him as eight, maybe the oldest at 12, and he’s going to be 15 this year. It’s really hard for me. The emotional and sentimental side of me regrets maybe having tied up so much of my time in books over the years. And I wish I would’ve done a better job with balance. And that’s the advice I give a lot of people now is don’t feel like you have to go chase money or careers or this or that. You will blink and your kids are grown and you’ll miss it. You will not feel secure in your financial state. (13:45): You will wish that you were there for your children more. And so really it was last year I made an effort to prioritize that and am very protective of that in 2026. Debbi (13:55): That is the best advice I’ve heard in a long time. I just think that is great advice. And everybody who writes should listen to you. Protect yourself, your time, your personal life, your family. All of these things matter, your community, whatever. Ryan (14:16): Well, there’s that saying the days are slow, but the years fly by, and it’s so true. Debbi (14:20): Very, very. Ryan (14:21): It’s just so true. And I look at that and already I was thinking about this interview last night and just how much my life has changed since I first became published in 2022. And I now have six novels out in that time, and I have three more coming out this year. So it’s been a lot. It’s like drinking from a fire hose. And it’s very easy to lose sight of your most important role as father, husband, if you have kids or a wife or family. But even beyond that, just protecting your personal time and personal relationships. I wish I’d have done a better job with that. And now I’m very vocal in advising others. Don’t make the mistakes that I did and prioritize family. Yeah. Debbi (15:09): Amen to that. Yeah, I hear you. Loud and clear. Boy. What authors have you found to be most inspiring and influential on your work? Ryan (15:20): So Vince Flynn is my all- time favorite writer. He wrote the number one New York Times bestselling Mitch Rapp series. After his death in 2000, I think it was 12, Kyle Mills, who’s a friend of mine, another number one New York Times bestselling author, took over the Mitch Rapp series and wrote in that for about a decade, wrote nine books. And now Don Bentley, another New York Times bestselling author has sort of picked up the mantle and continued it forward and is doing an excellent job. Vince Flynn is by far the writer who’s influenced me the most because he’s the reason I fell in love with books. I have six kids and my youngest son’s name is Mitchell after Mitch Rapp, Vince’s character. And then second to him, CJ Box is just an all-time favorite of mine. Him and Vince are really my 1A and my 1B. (16:13): I look at his career and there’s nothing the guy can’t write. I think his Joe Pickett series is the best franchise in print today, regardless of genre, and I’m really in awe of what he can do. More recent writers, Jack Carr is really this day’s modern Tom Clancy of his generation. Jack Carr, number one New York Time bestselling author of The Terminal List series. Brad Thor is another guy I really enjoy. So for sure, a lot of writers were influential in me. I would say being where I’m at with my Redd series in Tyndale, Josie Rosenberg is an author that really I learned a lot from. And then of course, Ted Bell, who was a mentor to me, and now I write his series. Debbi (16:59): Yeah, yeah. Wow. Sounds like you’ve met some remarkable people too. That helps. Ryan (17:06): Oh, I’ve been so blessed. Yeah. Debbi (17:09): That’s fantastic. You aren’t on TikTok, are you? Ryan (17:14): I think so. Not a lot. Yeah, not a ton. Debbi (17:17): I was wondering if you did BookTok. Ryan (17:18): Yeah, no, I think it’s not as trendy for our genre with thrillers and mysteries and all that, but I do pay attention to it. Debbi (17:28): Well, it’s there. That’s all I can say. Ryan (17:31): It’s there. Yeah, you’re right about that. Debbi (17:33): I’m not there, but it’s there. And apparently publishing is relying on it for some reason. Let’s see. What have you read lately that was a real standout book for you, that really spoke to you in some special way? Ryan (17:52): Yeah. So Brad Thor and Ward Larson, another buddy of mine, they have their first co-written book together called Cold Zero, comes out in February, and I read an advanced copy of that a few months ago, and it is phenomenal. They just announced yesterday that it’s going to be a massive feature film on Netflix, by the way. The book is phenomenal. I’d recommend people check that out. Another writer who’s very near and dear to me is Brad Meltzer, number one New York Times bestselling author of so many books and the host of History Channel’s Decoded and other TV shows. He also writes children books called … It’s the Ordinary People Save the World or something like that. I wish … now it escaped me, but I call them the I Am books because every title is I Am. And he has George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and just historical figures. (18:43): And it’s near and dear to me because I have a son, my son Ryan Jr., who’s autistic. We were told he would maybe never read. And for someone that works in publishing, I kind of refuse to believe that. And I’ll never forget the day I woke up and Ryan Jr. was sitting on the floor reading one of Brad Meltzer’s I Am books. He was reading I Am Abraham Lincoln out loud. And I’m a big softie with my kids, so I start crying and I couldn’t believe it was a big moment. And so I reach out to Brad Meltzer and he sent my son a video of himself, congratulating him. Then he sent a bunch of signed books to my kid. And later when PBS made a TV show, Xavier Riddle and the Secret Museum based off of the I Am books, kids’ books that Meltzer writes, my son was so excited to see that and sent a video to Brad and Brad immediately got right back to him. (19:35): So I really love that guy. But in addition to being one of the best people in publishing, he is a phenomenal writer. And so he’s got a new book that just came out Tuesday, January 6th. Debbi (19:46):The Viper? Ryan (19:46): The Viper. Yeah. That’s a good one. Debbi (19:49): I have a copy. It’s sitting there waiting for me to read it. I’ve got to read this thing. Ryan (19:55): He is one of those guys that, because of what my job is, I always know what the book is about. It’s my job to cover and let you know this book is coming way before I even get to read it. But if I walked away from publishing tomorrow and I knew nothing and I walked in a store and I saw Brad Meltzer’s name on a book, I’d buy it, no questions asked. Debbi (20:14): Well, I have a story about Brad Meltzer. I have never met him actually, but it’s interesting. I have a story about his book, one of his books. (20:24): When I first self-published, this was after, this is a short story about me. I hope you don’t mind. I was with a small press back in 2005 that went out of business nine months after my book came out and I’m like, oh, now what? So then I decided to self-publish and I came out with a book. It’s called Identity Crisis. And the funny thing was there was another book called Identity Crisis out there by Brad Meltzer. I was like, oh my God, we both chose the title. Somebody chose the title, Identity Crisis for him or he chose it. I don’t know which. So I was just like, “Oh my God, we have the same title. How about that? ” So I’ve always felt this weird interest in him. What made you choose that title and what’s your book about? And I never did read it. Ryan (21:16): It’s a good book, I’ll tell you that. It is a good book. Everything he writes is phenomenal. Debbi (21:20): Oh my gosh. Well, I can’t say that mine was phenomenal. It was my first. So forgive me if it wasn’t phenomenal like yours, but still even so. Yeah. So I just think he’s always been kind of interesting to me. So now I have to definitely read that book. Ryan (21:38): Yeah, check out The Viper. It’s a good one. Debbi (21:40): The Viper. Alrighty. Do you read books in other genres or do you not have time for that? Ryan (21:46): Well, I mean, yeah, it’s tough because if I’m being perfectly honest with you, when I’m not working on The Book Spy, I’m not writing one of my books, the last thing I want to do is pick up a book. Generally, I’m more like, let’s do anything else. So yeah, I read nonfiction for sure. I read a lot of books that deal with theology and biblical content, things like that. I read the Bible, I read kids’ books with my children, stuff like that. But I don’t what I would call pleasure read very often, which is like, “Hey, I’m not covering this book. It’s outside of my genre, but it looks cool. I think I’ll check it out.” That’s pretty rare. Debbi (22:32): See, I can’t seem to limit myself. I have to go outside of the genre every now and then. Ryan (22:37): Sure. Debbi (22:38): This sounds like a fascinating sci-fi or fantasy or I got to read this Terry Pratchett book, I haven’t gotten to it yet. Things like that. Ryan (22:47): Yeah. Debbi (22:47): Just like, I don’t know. What advice would you give to someone who’s interested in a writing career? Ryan (22:57): Well, you have to love it. You have to love storytelling. Don’t write one book and then go, okay, I’m going to try to get an agent, try to get a publisher. And if I get one, I’ll keep writing. Writers write. It’s not an agent or book deal or publisher that validates you as a writer. If you’re writing, you’re a writer. So always be writing. That’s my number one piece of advice. Don’t finish a book and start querying it and then do nothing. Keep writing. While you query that book, while you query agents and you’re trying to land one, keep writing. Always be writing. And a lot of times, if you look up your favorite author and you maybe hear how they got into the industry, very few people ever break in with the first book they wrote. They’ll write several before an agent gives them any attention. (23:43): And another writer I really love and a guy I admire so much, Steve Berry. Steve, I think, wrote 12 manuscripts before he got published. I think a lot of people give up way too early. And so just keep writing and put your head down and go write. Debbi (23:58): Yes. Great advice. Absolutely. Is there anything else you’d like to add while we’re on that I haven’t covered? Ryan (24:08): Just that if you’re new to my books, I wrote them that you could, in a way, so you could jump in anywhere. I think there’s probably more value in starting at the beginning with Fields of Fire. So that way you’re familiar with the characters throughout. But if you’re in the bookstore and you see one and it’s not the first one, you really honestly can jump in anywhere and I try to write them so that each story stands on its own and you’ll kind of know what’s happening, but I hope you’ll check them out. And to you, Debbi, just thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Debbi (24:39): Well, it was my pleasure. Very much so, Ryan. Thank you for being here. And I will now switch over. Here I am. Okay, on video. Yes. Thank you very much for being here today, Ryan. I do appreciate it. And I’m hoping to make some changes to both my Patreon and Substack pages. So hopefully there’ll be changes for the better. And if you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Patrons of the podcast get early ad-free episodes along with copies of the Crime Cafe story collections, which include a box set and short story anthology. There’s also a monthly newsletter where I include my reviews, new releases, and other items of possible interest to crime and mystery lovers. So check it out. And until next time when our guest will be Douglas J. Wood, take care and happy reading. ***** Be a dear and become a patron. Cheers! 🙂

My guest for this episode of the Crime Cafe podcast is crime writer Carter Wilson. Don’t miss our discussion of his process for writing thrillers without outlining. You can download the transcript here. Debbi (00:53): Hi everyone. My guest today is not only the Publisher’s Weekly and USA Today bestselling author of 10 award-winning psychological thrillers, but his work has been optioned for television and film, and his latest release, Tell Me What You Did, was a Barnes and Noble National Monthly pick. Awesome. He also hosts a podcast Making It Up, and is founder of the Unbound Writer Company, which provides coaching services, writing retreats, and online courses. So he is a busy man. He has also contributed short fiction to various publications and was featured in RL Stein’s young adult anthology Scream and Scream Again. I’m pleased to have with me today Carter Wilson. Hi Carter. Thanks for being here! Carter (01:46): For having me here. Debbi great. Great to talk to you. Debbi (01:49): Oh, it’s great to have you here. Thank you so much. Tell us a little about your latest book and what inspired you to write it. Carter (01:58): Well, I’ll start with the inspiration. A few years ago, I have a buddy named Blake and he and I would always give each other podcast recommendations, and he came up to me one day and he’s like, oh, you have to check out this podcast. Basically on this podcast, people can call in and leave a voicemail and leave an apology. And so I guess the conceit of the podcast is they would just play these apologies, and the human part of my brain thought that was pretty cool. The thriller writer part of my brain immediately thought, well, what if it wasn’t a podcast? What if it was a confession? And so that was kind of the nugget of the idea for my book. And I don’t outline, so I never know where my book’s going, but ultimately, Tell Me What You Did follows the story of 30-year-old Poe Webb, who is the host of the nation’s top true crime podcast called Tell Me What You Did. Basically on this podcast, people can call in and leave a voicemail and leave an apology. And so I guess the conceit of the podcast is they would just play these apologies, and the human part of my brain thought that was pretty cool. (02:51): And that’s the conceit of the podcast. People call in and they can confess to crimes anonymously, and if Poe believes them, then they have a discussion about the criminal mind. And then one day she has this really creepy guest on who seems vaguely familiar to her, and his confession is that he murdered Poe’s mother. Now, of course, Poe knows her mother was murdered. Poe actually witnessed her mother’s murder when she was 13. But the thing that’s sticking with her, she realizes this can’t be the guy because Poe spent eight years of her life tracking down that murderer and killing him herself. So she’s forced with the question, who is this guy? And if he is telling the truth, who did I kill? So that’s kind of the setup for the book. Debbi (03:37): Wow, that’s a very intriguing setup I have to say. I also, I just started it and the way you structure the beginning, it just pulls you right in. Carter (03:50): Oh, good. Debbi (03:51): It was so intriguing. It’s basically like a podcast within a podcast. Carter (03:55): Yeah. There’s interspersed throughout the chapters is kind of a cut up podcast transcript between these two individuals, and that ultimate conversation takes place at the end of the book, but you’re seeing glimpses of that conversation throughout the story. Debbi (04:12): That sounds fantastic. So is this kind of a commentary on true crime podcasting? Do you have any feelings about why it is that people gravitate to true crime podcasts? Carter (04:29): I mean, I don’t know if I would say it’s so much of a commentary because when I kind of approach a book, I’m never thinking about what is my message here? I’m just thinking about, and again, because I’m not outlining, I’m just thinking about what happens next, and it kind of unfolds to me. But I have been asked that question quite a bit, and I do like true crime podcasts. I listen to ’em. Sometimes I can’t take ’em, sometimes they’re too intense for me. But I think what really speaks to at least American culture is just the idea that people are so starved for recognition, so starved for 15 minutes of fame that they’re willing to confess to crimes with this flimsy kind of promise of anonymity, which of course could be easily broken, but people are still willing to do that, and I think that is a very American mindset. I don’t know if I would say it’s so much of a commentary because when I kind of approach a book, I’m never thinking about what is my message here? I’m just thinking about, and again, because I’m not outlining, I’m just thinking about what happens next, and it kind of unfolds to me. Debbi (05:22): Yeah, yeah, that is true. Yeah. Are there particular ideas that you tend to gravitate toward when you tell a story? Is there a type of story that you enjoy telling particularly? Carter (05:36): My first book I wrote, and I didn’t even know it was a thriller. It was my agent who told me what a thriller was. I was so ignorant, I didn’t even know what thrillers were. But I always gravitate to stories that just have inherent conflict, that have kind of a protagonist who’s maybe a little damaged and is trying to almost find a way to heal, but realizes the only way to heal is to potentially go through more trauma. And so I just love a setup where I just going to throw things at my protagonist and just see how they react and just say, you’re going to fail a lot before you succeed. And I think that adds to the tension, but just it allows me to kind of from a safe distance get to say, what would I do in this situation? And that brings me joy when I write. Debbi (06:29): Do you tend to focus on everyday sort of people as protagonists as opposed to people with powers or influence? Carter (06:39): For sure. Yeah. And certainly I stay away from people who have very specialized jobs because that would be research for me, and that feels like homework. So I don’t know if I would call them everyday people because usually they’ve had things happen to them in their past that make them broken in a way. But certainly on the face of things, they’re fairly ordinary people. I stay away from people who have very specialized jobs because that would be research for me, and that feels like homework. Debbi (07:09): Yeah. Is there a focus in your mind on a particular subgenre of thriller that you, is there a sub genre? Do you do strictly psychological thrillers or do you think about that at all? Carter (07:25): I don’t think about it. There are so many subgenres, and I feel like there’s new ones being created every day, and I’ve been labeled many different things from anything from thriller blending into horror to domestic suspense to psychological thrillers. The domestic aspect I feel, meaning familial. There’s usually family elements. That’s pretty consistent throughout my books. There’s usually some kind of father-mother figure that either something’s happened to or there’s a relationship that’s either healthy or fractured, but is central. Sisters. So I think domestic is, but the main thing for me, the psychological aspect is heavy because I usually write from a first person present tense point of view. So you are in the immediacy of this person’s mind typically for the entire book. So I love the idea of memory that’s not consistent. I love the idea of the trauma having kind of warped a perception of reality. And so having a first, somebody narrate the novel who may or may not be willingly unreliable is kind of interesting to me. I’ve been labeled many different things from anything from thriller blending into horror to domestic suspense to psychological thrillers. Debbi (08:44): This is all lending itself so well to adaptability, to film, I have to say, Carter (08:49): Hey, fingers crossed, Debbi (08:50): Present tense stuff, something thrown at the protagonist that they have to really fight to overcome, all of those things. Great stuff. Carter (09:00): Thank you. Debbi (09:02): So what kind of writing schedule do you tend to keep? Carter (09:07): A pretty light one. When I started writing, I had a corporate job that I maintained for a couple decades after I started writing. And my advice to any aspiring writer out there is not to quit your day job because it’s a tough industry. (09:25): So I’ve learned over time just to write an hour a day, and I still maintain that schedule. I write in the mornings and when I’m actively drafting, it’s kind of a five to 700 word goal, daily goal, but I don’t write more than an hour. It’s very rare that I do, and I also don’t miss a day. It’s very rare that I do that either. So with that schedule, I can have a draft done, if I can figure out what I’m doing, in about six months. So I try to do about a book a year published, and that keeps me, I think, my name out there without killing me. So many other things you have to do during the day to support writing. And I have other companies as well. I’ve learned over time just to write an hour a day, and I still maintain that schedule. I write in the mornings and when I’m actively drafting, it’s kind of a five to 700 word goal, daily goal, but I don’t write more than an hour. Debbi (10:09): That’s right. Yeah. I mean, you got to find the time to do the writing. That’s the thing, that’s the trick, Carter (10:16): Right. And you’ve got to make sure you’re not, what I fear is, could you write four hours a day? Of course you can, but I think you have to build up to it. But I think for me, I really have to trust the story. And again, going back to the idea that I’m not outlining and I don’t know what’s coming next, there’s a pace at which it unfolds to me. And I think if I try to force it, if I try to put in those extra hours, I might be going down a wrong path. So I tend to be consistent but not overdo it. Debbi (10:53): That’s interesting. What’s interesting is you’re probably the first person I’ve spoken to who is a complete pantser in terms of the plot, because a lot of people I talk to say, well, I’m a little bit plotted in a little bit pants. I have a general idea and all this kind of stuff, but you seem to be a complete pantser. Carter (11:16): It’s a curse. Debbi (11:16): Just taking everything literally as it occurs to you. Carter (11:20): And I recommend to every writer to try multiple ways because you will eventually find that method that is organic to your nature. I mean, I’ll give you an example. I’m writing something now, and I had kind of, again, the opening scene idea, but not much more than that. I’m like, I am going to outline 20% of this book before I start. And I sat there for two days and I just couldn’t figure it out. And the moment I wrote the first paragraph, things start to reveal themselves to me. And so I’m convinced personally that my outline is fully formed in my head. I just need to write in order to tap into the subconscious part that is releasing it a little bits at a time, because it’s not like I change my books massively after I write that first draft. I just physically need to be in the act of writing to know what might happen next. I recommend to every writer to try multiple ways because you will eventually find that method that is organic to your nature. Debbi (12:15): Do you usually have an end goal in mind in terms of where you want the story to end? Carter (12:20): No. I know what’s not going to happen. I’m not going to have my protagonist hit by a truck on the last page, but usually around 80%, 70, 80% in I start to get an idea of how it might end, but not usually before that. Debbi (12:41): How much research do you do before you write or during the writing process? Carter (12:47): I don’t do much. I mean, I do obviously all the research I need to do that supports the book to make it as believable as possible. I usually just don’t set myself up for a story that requires that once in a while I might have a secondary POV that might be a detective, and in that case, I’ve got a friend who’s a detective and I’ll feed him pages. I’m like, does this make any sense to you at all? But the beautiful thing about writing first person present tense from kind of an everyday character, that character walks around the corner and there’s somebody pointing a gun at her face, she’s not thinking, oh, that’s a Walter PPK, nine millimeter. They’re like, there’s a gun in my face. So you don’t really, but there are times where you do have to obviously look things up. If it’s a setting that you’re not familiar with, you either go there or you make sure that you’re doing it justice by that kind of research. But that’s usually the extent of it. Debbi (13:49): Yeah, yeah. Just enough to make it feel real. Carter (13:53): Yeah. Because you’re not going fool everybody, but you think about what you like to read and what resonates with you, and you try to adhere to those standards. Debbi (14:05): Exactly. Yeah. What author would you say has been most influential and inspiring for your writing journey? Carter (14:14): There’s so many, and it’s funny because I mostly read nonfiction, but I grew up on Stephen King clearly, and I think someone like Stephen King, you learn depth of character and maybe not even so much plot, but just emotion. I think he’s a master at that. Then you look at somebody like Cormac McCarthy who not only do I not write like, but I could never write like him. (14:45): But when you read him, you realize, wow, his writing forces me to read every word. Why is that? And I think from him, you realize how to distill, how to take a paragraph and put that whole sensation of that paragraph into two or three words by just choosing. And that all happens in the editing where you realize, this feels a little bit lengthy to me. What am I trying to say and how can I make that visceral? But there’s a tremendous number of authors that I’ve read who they just tap into your head somewhere and you start to realize like, oh, this is sounding a little bit like Harlan Coben or whomever. Debbi (15:33): Let’s see. Have you ever considered writing a series? Carter (15:38): Not seriously. Series are a tricky thing. As a new author, you really have to have the series to go to a publisher or to an agent. You can’t just say, you bought my book, great, but let’s make this a series. And they’ll say, slow down. We don’t know how this book’s going to do first. And so that’s kind of how it started for me. And then I’ve always just written standalones and I just love where are we going this time? Who’s our cast? That’s so exciting for me. Also, when you start having fairly everyday characters, how much stuff can possibly happen to them that you can extend into a series? I certainly would never say never, but at this point, I just love going to a new world each time. Debbi (16:33): Yeah. There is something kind of nice about going into something totally different, a different situation with a different set of people dealing with the problem. Totally. Carter (16:44): I agree. Debbi (16:45): It’s a challenge, but it’s a good kind of challenge. What advice would you give to anyone who’s interested in writing, in a writing career? Carter (16:55): Well, the first one was, don’t quit your day job. You know what I’ve learned over time, and I do coach writing, I do coaching and online classes and seminars and retreats, and I feel like I have a little bit of an expertise at it because I started from a place of zero background in writing, zero aspirations in writing. It was literally, quite literally, I started on one day, it was a lightning strike, and I haven’t stopped, but I had to learn everything. So I’ve gone through all those pitfalls, and what I’ve really realized is, one, determine your, why are you doing this? Really think about that and make sure that’s an answer that you can print out and put on the wall and look at every day to make sure you’re staying true to that vision. And secondly is to write every day. The biggest complaint, people say, I wish I had time to write. And that’s just such a load of crap to me. You can write for 15 minutes, and if you do it every single day, you’ll build that muscle just like going to the gym. But consistency, I think overshadows inspiration, overshadows everything else because you will become a writer if you write every day. I mean, look at me 22 years doing this. I only write an hour a day. So you can find an hour in your schedule, I do coaching and online classes and seminars and retreats, and I feel like I have a little bit of an expertise at it because I started from a place of zero background in writing, zero aspirations in writing. Debbi (18:19): And you’re doing well at it. Thanks. And you’ve got, you’re teaching courses and everything. That’s fantastic. Carter (18:27): Yeah, I love it. I love talking to writers, so it’s always fun. Debbi (18:31): Do you ever do things like masterminds or workshops? Carter (18:35): Yeah, I mean everything. Yeah. I teach at other workshops, and then I just run my own as well. And I love, one of the things I love talking about, because I think I’m not a big believer in classes teaching you how to write. I think there’s a million ways to write, so I’ll teach how I write, and that may or may not resonate with you, but I love talking about the writer’s psychology, blocks, inspiration, consistency, things that really trip writers up and keep them from realizing their goals because they’re too stuck in their own head, because I’ve been through all that too. Fear of rejection, sharing your work, all those things are so scary. There’s a lot to teach along those lines. Debbi (19:26): Absolutely. Yeah. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up? Carter (19:36): I was just going to say I appreciate the opportunity to talk about the book. Debbi (19:41): Well, that’s my pleasure, and I love the background you have set up for yourself with the covers on the wall. Carter (19:48): Oh, yeah. Debbi (19:48): Anybody who’s listening to the podcast, check out the YouTube video because there’s this lovely display of his covers on the wall to his right as you’re looking at this. Carter (19:58): Yeah, it’s funny, I did that. I remember with my first book, I’m like, I wanted to have it framed, and then when I went to do a couple events, I would put it on a little easel, and then I started doing it with every book, and then I realized, this is a nice affirmation for me to be able to kind of, when I’m in my office, I’m like, oh, I did that. Yeah. And writers need that, we need, because we’re so full of self-doubt that it’s good to say, no, I’ve done this. And so I think that’s important for everybody. Debbi (20:31): Fantastic. Well, I think that is great advice and just a great way to finish up. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your being here and telling us about this, Carter. Carter (20:42): Thanks so much, Debbi. I really appreciate it as well. Debbi (20:45): It’s been my pleasure. Believe me, I always enjoy talking to writers about this stuff, and I think the advice is good for anybody who’s interested in writing too, and for anybody who just enjoys reading crime fiction. Carter (20:58): Totally. Debbi (21:01): Thank you to everyone who’s listening or watching. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave a review on your favorite podcast app. Also consider becoming a Patreon supporter. Check out our different episodes on Patreon, as well as our perks, which we put ad-free episodes up there, so keep that in mind. Also, we have different perks at different tiers, so please give that some consideration. Helps to support the effort here and keep us in business. Our next episode will feature Brenda Chapman. Until then, take care and happy reading. ***** Check out our Patreon page!

My guest for this episode of the Crime Cafe podcast is award-winning author of crime fiction and work in other genres, Melissa Yi. Check out our discussion about her plans for the Hope Sze medical thriller series, as well as her young adult, romance, and fantasy writing, along with her experiences with Kickstarter. And get to know a bit more about Cthulhu. You can download a copy of the transcript here. Debbi: Hi everyone, this is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense, and thriller writing. I’m your host, Debbi Mack. My guest today is an author who follows the maxim, write what you know. She’s an emergency doctor who writes a medical crime series. She also has been nominated for the Arthur Ellis and Derringer awards for her work. She’s also written in a wide variety of genres, including young adult, romance, science fiction, and fantasy. It’s my great pleasure to have with me today, Melissa Yi. Hi Melissa, how are you doing today? Melissa: I’m so good, Debbi. I just want to tell you that I did end up winning the Derringer Award. Debbi: Oh, that’s awesome. Excellent. Way to go. Melissa: Thank you. One year nominated, one year win, you know, these things come and go, but when you win, you should take it. Debbi: Oh, yeah, yeah. I didn’t know that. So I’m glad you mentioned that. Yeah, definitely mention it. So about your latest book, it’s a young adult novel, isn’t it? Melissa: Yeah, I’ll see if I can get it to stay in frame. Okay, great. I love it. The Red Rock Killer. Debbi: Yes. Yes. Tell us about it. What inspired you to write this book? Melissa: Okay, well, did you know that the International Thriller Writers every year they have the Best First Sentence Contest? And I look, yes, and it’s free to enter. I think you have to be a member though. And membership is free too. And so then they have all these bestsellers who will go through and then pick out their favorite sentence. And I looked at some of the sentences and I was like, okay, I’m going to write one, too. So I wrote, just trying to remember correctly. “The summer I turned 14, my mother told me I could do whatever I wanted. So I decided to find the Red Rock Serial Killer.” And after I sent it in, I was just like, what a strange sentence. So I wrote, just trying to remember correctly. “The summer I turned 14, my mother told me I could do whatever I wanted. So I decided to find the Red Rock Serial Killer.” And after I sent it in, I was just like, what a strange sentence. Like, really? Why would a 13 year old be looking for a serial killer? I mean, okay, if it’s for a podcast or something, but in real life, like, it’s just sort of odd. But I kept writing it a bit. And I was like, you know, obviously, she wants to do this. She has a mother like, I just kept writing. And then that sentence won the best first sentence from Allison Brennan, who’s a New York Times bestseller. So I was like, awesome. Yeah, this is amazing. And then shortly after that, they had a contest where R.L. Stein and some other judges were going to pick the best middle grade crime novel that was written by a Black, Indigenous or person of color. And the prize was to come to Thriller Fest in New York and $1,000. So I was like, oh, I already have this book that I started, kind of out of nowhere. So I’m just going to keep going with it. And as I was writing, I was like, okay, her name is Edan, which is a name that means fire and it’s spelled E-D-A-N. And her mother thought that this was a good name for somebody who was born in the desert, because when I looked it up, I didn’t even know where the Red Rocks were. But my choices were, oh, you could basically be in Quebec, Canada, or you could be in Las Vegas. And I already have a series that’s set in Quebec. So I was like, we’re going to Las Vegas. And that was fun for me, like, you know, it’s a different country and because I’m Canadian and stuff. And she had two best friends. And one of them is Callie Yang, and she’s a swimmer and she’s a good girl, you know, like she’s the teacher’s pet kind of thing. And the other one is Barstow. And he’s pretty well off, like he’s the best. Well, he’s the most well off out of the three of them, which is a bit of a bone of contention with him and Edan, not because they want it, but just because Edan’s mom is a single mom and she doesn’t have as much money. And he loves video, but they both love video games, like they’re always playing Stardew Valley and stuff. So I’m like, OK, I have these three teenagers who are going to end up finding a serial killer. And what happens? And in this case, it was they end up going hiking for Callie’s birthday and find a barrel in the desert. So there’s not, you know, explicit blood and guts or anything like that. They don’t end up seeing a body, which makes it more middle grade and younger YA. But it’s just a lot of fun. I love her. There’s actually also a finalist for the, I’m going to have to think of the correct name. It’s the Claymore Award for the unpublished manuscript for the Killer Nashville. So people really enjoy Edan if they meet her. And she’s also the cousin of Hope, who is my main protagonist. Although they haven’t met each other yet. So that part is not done. But for now, she’s an innocent 13-year-old finding bodies in the desert. So people really enjoy Edan if they meet her. And she’s also the cousin of Hope, who is my main protagonist. Although they haven’t met each other yet. So that part is not done. But for now, she’s an innocent 13-year-old finding bodies in the desert. Debbi: Wow. Very interesting. Fascinating how a contest like that where you came up with a single line led to a book. Melissa: I am the kind of person that I just love randomness. So if you show me something, I will try and make something out of it. But you know how they say, like when you’re writing poetry, one line drops from the sky. This is a book that felt like it kind of dropped from the sky. Debbi: I kind of know the feeling. Yeah, I get where you’re coming from. I wrote my own YA pretty much the same way. It was like a line occurred to me and then I kept going. Weird. How do you choose which genre you want to write in? Like you’ve done many genres. And do you kind of like pick a story and say this is good for sci-fi or fantasy or YA? Or do you explore the genre and come up with the story? Melissa: Stories first for me. Yeah, I’m actually not good at genre. It’d be like. You know, some people are really into fashion and they’re very precise. Like, for example, one of my friends said she met a woman who only wore red or chartreuse. And that’s all she had in her house. Like that’s how she, like it made her very happy to have only these tones. That was so foreign to me. Like, I mean, I love like so many colours, like the brighter, the better. You know, again, like people like of all kinds, a variety of animals, like just a lot of things like foods and spices, like just variety makes me happy. So I actually have difficulty seeing genre, like if people are like. You know, for example, I show like somebody’s like I was at a book fair and a woman was like, “Oh, I only read romance.” So I showed her Wolf Ice, which is a werewolf thriller and romance. And she was horrified. And she was like, “I said romance.” And I’m like, yes, it is. But OK, I guess we have different ideas of what romance is, you know? Debbi: Yeah, exactly. Melissa: But for me, actually, I am trying to be a little bit more strategic about it just in that I have realized that medical thrillers are not as big a market as I would like them to be. So even though Hope is now a supernatural thriller series, like I’m doing The Seven Deadly Sins and I’m working on Sloth. So I’m bringing in Cthulhu. So these things, it should bring more people, but it won’t necessarily bring more people. Well, I’m just going to say romance is the biggest genre. So I am also trying that out for 2025. I want to keep my hand in mystery thrillers, but also do romance. Debbi: That’s cool. I mean, the fact that you’re aware of what it is you like to do and what you do and that you don’t let arbitrary rules define you, I think. I think that’s pretty cool. Melissa: It is. I wish I could be cool and marketable. Debbi: Well, there’s a market for people who are looking exactly for something different, you know, something like, say, romance, but a little bit different or something like crime, but a little bit different. Like definitely a 13-year-old going after a serial killer, investigating a serial killer is pretty different. Melissa: Yeah, I hope so. I hope I can find people who are, you know, who love change and innovation instead of, you know, rereading the same. I hope I can find people who are, you know, who love change and innovation instead of, you know, rereading the same. Debbi: I agree. I think, you know, I think there are people out there who are looking for that kind of thing, honestly, because, you know, after a while, you get tired of reading just the same old tropes over and over, sort of like television, you know, the way they’ll take something and they’ll beat a trope to death. And it’s like, yeah, it’s a new twist on this. Yeah, they can do it. They do it, too. But it’s like, you know, you got to look for that stuff. Yeah, so I was going to ask you a question about something else, but it’s now escaped my mind. What are you working on now? That’s the question I want to ask you. Melissa: Oh, amazing. Yeah. So that’s a perfect lead-in. Yes. So I am working on Sloth. OK, I’m going to try and find. So this time what I did was I ended up pairing with an artist, a local artist named Sarah Leger to work on art with the book, so it may look blurry. It is actually blurry. And I think she wanted that. Like, so the idea with Lovecraft and Cthulhu and these monsters, it’s not explicit horror. It’s more dread and implication and, frankly, slowly going mad. And so I my husband was the one who suggested it, actually, because I was like, you know, in each of these Deadly Sin books, Hope fights a different monster. [T]he idea with Lovecraft and Cthulhu and these monsters, it’s not explicit horror. It’s more dread and implication and, frankly, slowly going mad. And I need a monster that symbolizes sloth or laziness. And he was like, “What about Cthulhu? He’s sleeping.” I was like, oh, OK. I actually hadn’t read H.P. Lovecraft, but I was like, let me give it let me give it a try. And I liked the idea. And so I ended up working with two different artists. I’m just going to show off the art for. OK … trying, trying, trying. Debbi: Other direction. Melissa: OK, I’m going to do, I’m going to do the big one. Debbi: There you go. Melissa: So this one is no, no. Yes. OK. Debbi: There it is. Melissa: This one is by Ben Baldwin in the UK, and I do find it amusing. OK, if we can just stay in focus … with the idea, I told him that this one is going to be on neurology. And I like the idea of this tentacled creature attacking a skull. So that’s what he came up with. And there I did a series that goes. So that’s the shoggoth, but it’s actually the dust cover. So there’s probably no way this will all stay in focus. But anyway. Debbi: I can see most of it. It looks good. Melissa: Yeah. So it is cool. So this was the first time I worked with artists, which was really neat. And that I ended up writing poems as well as the novel, and so the poems will be in a book called Cthulhu’s Cheerleader, and then the actual book is called Killing Me Slothly. So the Kickstarter backers can get both of them together in a special edition and everybody else can buy them separately as desired. So I’m working on that. But to be honest, Sloth was just, it’s just so tough. Like it was like, it’s tired and I’m tired. It was just actually sucking out my brain. No, I think I am just, I’m just revising the ending. So I’m hoping that will be done soon. And then I’m also working on romance, which I am just trying to hit all of the tropes. So I have a group of hockey players who are set in Glengarry. So I don’t know if you know this, small towns are very big in like. Well, there’s it’s one set of romance and I live in a small town that is so cute, like just for example, when we moved in, one of our neighbors made us an apple pie. Another neighbor gave us homemade jam. And a set of pasta plates, which I can assure you they did not do in Montreal. Like we just, I think, never spoke to our neighbors, you know, so it’s just, and our like our mail carrier, she makes little. Like she gives our dogs treats if she sees them, but like at Christmas, for example, she makes up little treat bags for them and she makes a Christmas card and she specifically names them like and she does. I think she’s made over 100 of these bags for all the dogs on her route. Debbi: Wow. Melissa: Yes. And that’s just normal where I live. So other people are like … Debbi: That’s so small townish. Melissa: I know. Debbi: It’s very quaint. Melissa: It’s so cute. Like I had read online that they were like, OK, well, we have these small towns and people like to romanticize them, but it’s really sad. And real small towns aren’t like that. And I was like, I actually do live in that small town. So I’m going to try and transmit that through Fire and Ice and the rest of the books in that series, the Glengarry Guards. Debbi: That’s really nice. I like to hear about happy small towns because I see so many depressed ones on television mostly. They really, really like to dump on small towns. Melissa: Yeah. And of course, like that’s what people click on and watch. So, I mean, they’re not going to show the happy endings a lot. Like you might get just one one heartwarming thing before the end of the hour. But I was like, you know what? I’m lucky that I live in this place where people care. Debbi: That’s awesome. Melissa: I’m going to share a bit of that in 2025. Debbi: All right. I’m ready to move to Canada. Melissa: OK, yeah. Come on over. Debbi: All right. All right. For many reasons that I won’t go into right now. Melissa: Yeah, I got it. I got it. Debbi: Oh, boy. Let’s see. Melissa: Canada feels the same. I shouldn’t speak for all of Canada. My part of Canada feels the same. Debbi: Let’s see. Do you plan to how many more in the Hope Zse series do you think you’re going to write? You’ve got the Seven Deadly Sins going, right? Melissa: Yeah. So I’m going to finish the Seven Deadly Sins. That’s the plan. So Sloth is number three. And then I’m going to do Lust next, which is number four. But depending how things go with romance, I may like space out the books a bit more because I know that some people, like who are much more business minded, they’ll just stop a series. So Sloth is number three. And then I’m going to do Lust next, which is number four. But depending how things go with romance, I may like space out the books a bit more … I’ll be like, OK, sorry, this doesn’t work or this has to take a back burner. And for me, I was like. There are seven deadly sins. Like it’s kind of weird to stop after three. In my case, it was actually a Kickstarter level where people could choose that they were going to be in a future book. So I have at least three people that I need to put in future books. So the series will continue, but perhaps just at a slightly slower pace. Debbi: When did you start doing a Kickstarter? Melissa: With Wrath. I’m just going to show you all my books. So with the first deadly sin. And I’ll just give a Kickstarter tip for any crime people who are looking at it. So there are people who do super well at it, like Sara Rosett, just beloved, you know, put up her historical 1920s mysteries. And it was like, yeah. But not all mysteries have done as well. And from what I understand, historical, like even historical romance is not considered a huge market. Kickstarter loves fantasy and science fiction. So if you can get that angle in, that would be helpful. So it just so happened that in this series, I started introducing supernatural elements. Well, perhaps suitably this this one had ghosts in it. So, yeah, there you go. I’ll just put it with my face. Why not? Kickstarter loves fantasy and science fiction. So if you can get that angle in, that would be helpful. So it just so happened that in this series, I started introducing supernatural elements. So it’s not, I wouldn’t say, a huge selling point, but it’s they do like to have that. And I think they’ve talked about how Brandon Sanderson, you probably heard. Now, I can’t remember how much he made. Forty five million dollars or something like something enormous like that my mind cannot grasp. And so he brought a bunch of fantasy fans to that sphere who are interested in seeing other books like that or in that realm. Or, you know, there’s a market for it. Debbi: Fascinating. Melissa: And this may change, too, like right. So as you bring in more fans, they may do that. But just it’s not a given that just like, oh, I put a crime book on and we I make tons of money like exactly. Debbi: Yeah. Yeah. People don’t realize how much effort goes into doing something like crowdfunding. Melissa: Yeah, absolutely. People don’t realize like creative work in general, how much work goes into it. Debbi: Exactly right. Yeah. They just don’t realize. How do you manage to balance your medical work with your fictional work? Melissa: Yeah, I do. I did something very different from most, which is that I. Well, there are a few things. I prioritize writing, so I felt a little guilty when I graduated, like I told my husband, I was like, oh, you know, now I can finally make some money. But I really want to write because, you know, I’ve been kind of starving to do this during my whole medical training and even our undergrad, right, because you’re just working so hard to get into medical school and beyond. And he was like, “Do it.” My husband is a man of very few words, but he always encouraged me to write or just he’s just been like, why not? Like he’s not somebody who will like give speeches or anything, but he’s just like, I don’t see a problem. So I’m like, OK, so my parents really thought that was strange. And like, I’m sure my classmates and stuff would not understand why I would do this, you know, financially and stuff. It just it makes no sense. But I just I, you know, in the end, I told people I’m just like other people can run an emergency room, but only I can write my stories. Debbi: That’s right. Melissa: And in the end, you die and you have to be happy with whatever you did. Debbi: Exactly. Melissa: I just like I got to prioritize my writing. Debbi: I know the feeling. And I don’t know if you’re familiar with this book at all. Range. This is a great book. I’m recommending it to the entire world. Melissa: OK, what’s it about? Debbi: It’s about how generalists triumph in a specialized world. I think you might like it. Melissa: I would totally be into that. Debbi: Yeah, you would be into that. It totally resonated with me. I went to law school and then decided to be a writer. So it’s like I trained as a writer. I was a journalism major, but then didn’t end up going into it. But then I did go into journalism, but that was later. Melissa: It’s obviously, you know, you love words. You love thinking deeply about issues. You know, these things go together. Like in our world, we don’t think of them. But actually, you know, journalism and law. Yeah. Why not? It’s very verbal, intelligent. Debbi: Exactly. And and also it helps that I have a supportive spouse as well. He was very much like, you should be writing. Melissa: Oh, fantastic. Debbi: Isn’t that nice when it works out that way? Melissa: Yes. Actually, you know, I used to be part of this blog called Mothers in Medicine, and one of them, her ground rock recommendation was marry well. Debbi: Mm-hmm. Melissa: Because what you choose makes such a fundamental difference. And, you know, I have heard repeatedly that the number one financial determinant for you as a woman is not your education. It’s not how hard you work. It is your partner. So even now in 2025, you have to be very, very mindful. Like a lot of time, your partner will drag you down. You know, you’ll end up with a bazillion kids or if you’re career minded, you’ll have to pay alimony or palimony. Like just it can be a real millstone. You have to be smart about it. Debbi: Exactly. These are important choices. Think about it before you do it. What advice would you give to anyone who’s interested in having a writing career? Apart from choosing your spouse or partner well. Melissa: So, that’s one. I always say read, read, read, write, write, write, because there are a lot of people are attracted to writing, but they’re not actually interested in reading books. And that doesn’t work. Like you have to love stories and words in this medium, like it’s not the same as TV. You know, you need to love books. If you love TV, then you could do TV, which is also writing. But choose your medium and understand like. There’s a lot of frustration involved. Like I try to explain to people. It’s not like math where one plus one equals two. [Y]ou need to love books. If you love TV, then you could do TV, which is also writing. But choose your medium and understand like. There’s a lot of frustration involved. Like I try to explain to people. It’s not like math where one plus one equals two. So if you put this amount of energy into writing, then you will achieve this much or you will sell this many books. There’s a lot of randomness and luck and, like, popularity contests going on with the literary world and it’s such a balance to just, to be confident in yourself and what you want to do and also be able to handle capitalism, frankly. Debbi: Yes, unfortunately, but there you have it. Melissa: Yeah. So long term, like that’s what it’s like. But I’m just fascinated by artistic people, like creative people in general. And I’ve also like done some acting and performance and stuff, too. And one analogy that stuck with me was, you know, because, you know, it’s so hard to act like, you know, you often end up just giving it away for free, for example. And one person said, well, you know, it’s like riding a bus, you know, like you get on the bus and it’s really crowded and you have to shove your way on and you’re just like, why am I doing this? And it’s so stressful. But you keep riding the bus and eventually there’s a place for you to sit. And I’ve been struggling with that, like. Feeling like that, honestly, and feeling confident and faith and and keep going and everything like that, but it is like that, like you have to keep going. Oh, actually, can I share an analogy? I was just thinking about this. Debbi: Please do. Melissa: So Jennifer Crusie, you may know her. She wrote romance and she writes romantic suspense with often with Bob Mayer. And she talked about an experiment where they had rats with islands. So it sounds horrible. But what they did was they took rats and they put them into, say, a basin and the rat had to paddle around. There was no, they couldn’t get up on the sides. It was too hard for them. So they divided the rats. Some of them, they would just have to paddle around until the timer went off and they would take them up. And, you know, no rats actually drowned or anything like that. Or if they paddled around long enough, the second group, there was actually some sort of island where they could rest their little paws and breathe. And then they took all the rats and then they put them in the base in a second time. And they just measured how long they would swim. And the rats who had islands in the past, even though there were no islands now, kept swimming for much longer. And she was like, you need to be a rat with an island. Now this now this makes me think about privilege, right? Because if you have been someone who’s raised with, you know, not a lot of money, you know, you actually physically cannot afford to just keep paddling around and be like, oh, well, if I write one more book, one more book, one more book, it’s going to be OK. For sure, that’s true. But if you can keep the faith and keep going and write your book, even if you have to do it on the side and keep your day job and, you know, keep changing your baby and everything that you need to do at the same time, then eventually, I hope you will find a spot for yourself. You’ll create some sort of niche and find some group of people who are like, yes, I love your work. I love your stories. You are one of my people. And that’s what I’m hoping for, for all of us. Debbi: I think those things are possible if you stick with it. You just have to persevere and believe in yourself. And look for your people, like you said, look for the people who appreciate what you’re doing. Melissa: Yeah. Debbi: So on that note, I’ll just ask, is there anything else you’d like to say before we finish up? Melissa: I guess I just want to say thanks, you know, like, because you’re one of the people who keeps us going, right? Debbi: Well, thank you. I really appreciate that, because, boy, I know the feeling is sometimes you just need somebody out there who believes and is ready to get behind you and say, pay attention to this person. Melissa: Yes, absolutely. And so and thank you for adding your book to the gift basket for the giveaway. Debbi: My pleasure. I’m glad I was able to do that. Yes, we’re doing a joint giveaway. I’m throwing in a copy of Damaged Goods, my first Erica Jensen mystery with the gift basket that Melissa is offering. So be sure and check out that giveaway. The details are on my website under the post about the giveaway. And if you enjoyed the episode, please leave a review. They help us. Also check out the perks we offer to various supporters on Patreon. So I’ve got that going. And on that note, I’ll just say that our next guest will be Greg Hurwitz. And I want to thank you again, Melissa, for being with us today. Take care and happy reading! ***** If you’re a fan of the show, consider becoming a supporter on Patreon.

This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features The Adventures of Philip Marlowe in “The Orange Dog.” And my thanks to Old Time Radio Researchers Group for the content. You’re awesome!

This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Phil M. Williams. If you like thrillers, you’ll want to check this out. And don’t forget to check out his giveaway here! Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so. We also have a shop now. Check it out! Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe The transcript can be downloaded here. Debbi: Hi everyone! This week we have with us the author of 27 books, primarily thrillers. His stories tend to explore modern dilemmas and controversies which pit powerful villains against average citizens. He’s giving away an audio version of one of them, NO GOOD DEED. It’s my pleasure to introduce my guest, Phil M. Williams. Hi, Phil. How are you doing today? Phil: Very good, Debbi. Thank you so much for having me on! Debbi: It’s my pleasure, believe me. I noticed that most of your books are thrillers. I also noticed that you do have at least one series, the 2050 series. Phil: That’s correct. Debbi: What prompted you to write this series? Phil: I think I was interested in – in thinking about what would happen in my lifetime. Right? I mean, I’m 48 years old, so I’m hoping I get another 25 years at least. So I was thinking, okay, well, I wonder what the world would look like. I don’t know. 2050 is a good, seemed like a good round number. And I see a lot of the – I’m interested in history. I’m interested in some politics. And to me it was just sort of an extension of. Now it’s a very exaggerated version of what’s maybe happening in the world today, but it’s sort of taking the extreme versions of totalitarianism and projecting it on the United States and seeing what life would be like for. And in the series, there’s four main characters. And so I wanted to see, wanted to explore what life would be like for the one character as a farmer. He’s an average guy that’s struggling, as a lot of our farmers are today, and struggling to make ends meet. And then you have the congresswoman who’s sort of a budding communist congresswoman who eventually rises to power. And then you have the banker, who sort of comes from a very shadowy family where they control a lot of the economics behind the scenes. So you get a chance as the reader to kind of, to see that. And then you have just this regular woman who’s sort of, who’s a nurse, and she and the farmer end up. They end up, they end up crossing paths, but they kind of show that … those two characters show the every man and every woman perspective of what life is like in this dystopian future, whereas, and then the other side of the coin, you have the corporate power banker, and then you have the governmental power person that ends up being the president. They show you the power side of the dynamics, which I think is really interesting for the readers. And you can see, as the series goes on, you can see how the plots wrap around each other and how the characters sort of interact with each other. And in the beginning, you don’t always see how it all is going to connect, but it all kind of sort of weaves together, which I think was just unbelievably complex to do. The plot outline was – Yeah, the plot outline was over 100,000 words. I think it was, like, 130,000 words just for the plot outline. And I put a – put a lot. I spent over a year just working on the five book plot outline before I even wrote a single sentence of the series. Yeah, the plot outline was over 100,000 words. I think it was, like, 130,000 words just for the plot outline. And I put a – put a lot. I spent over a year just working on the five book plot outline before I even wrote a single sentence of the series. Debbi: Oh, my goodness! Phil: Yeah. Debbi: I’m always in awe of people who can do that. Write out, like, entire plot developments in an outline and then turn it into a book. Phil: Yeah, I’m definitely a plotter. And if you’re not a plotter, I don’t know, Debbi, if you’re a plotter. Debbi: I am, actually. Phil: Okay. Debbi: I’m very much a plotter, but I do like to kind of give myself this wiggle room to go off on other things. Yeah. Phil: Yeah. I do the same thing. I mean, I think, like, I’ll come up with a very detailed plot outline, but a lot of times when I’m writing it, I’ll come with, something new will come up, and it’s like, oh, that changes my outline. So then I got to go through the whole plot outline and make some minor changes here and there to make it to sort of fit the new direction. But, yeah, I try to at least maintain some flexibility, not be so rigid on the plot outline, but. But I’m probably closer to rigid than, I’m on the opposite spectrum as, like, say, Stephen King, who just, you know, of course, he’s the pantser. Right? That’s the example everybody gives, I guess. Debbi: Yeah. I mean, I’m amazed when people can do that, too. I’m just like, you know, no, I have to have some idea of where I’m going. I need a little roadmap of some sort. Phil: Yeah, I agree with you. I’m the same way. Debbi: So you’ve written a lot more standalones, though. What is it that draws you toward writing standalones? Phil: That’s a good question. You know, it’s funny because I don’t know many, many indie authors that are doing well that write standalones. It’s just, it’s not, I know it’s a – it’s a terrible business choice, but I personally enjoy reading standalones and I, I think that’s probably why I like writing them. But I think it’s, when you’re writing a long series, I think it gets, to me, it gets repetitive, and I like the idea of a completely different – I like the idea of telling a complete story in a single book as best as I possibly can. [W]hen you’re writing a long series, I think it gets, to me, it gets repetitive, and … I like the idea of telling a complete story in a single book as best as I possibly can. And then once I feel like I’ve exhausted it, I feel like if I were to try to write another one, it’s just not going to, it’s just the, it’s always, the sequels always pale in comparison to the original, you know, and that’s kind of the way I view my standalones. It’s like, well, I put everything into that story and once it’s over, I got nothing left to say. Debbi: You know, I think that’s great, actually. I think the fact that you focus so much on the quality of the story rather than worrying about, oh, I have to write, you know, three or four novels. Put them all out, you know, this year. I mean… Phil: My bank account doesn’t like it, but…. Debbi: Well, I get that. Believe me, I get it. Yeah. But I think – I think quality pays off in the end, when you come right down to it. Phil: Yeah, I agree. Debbi: How would you describe your writing to someone who is interested in buying your books, but isn’t familiar with your writing? Phil: I would say just looking at what the reviews tend to say, because I think my opinions on these things are always wrong. Even my opinions on my own work, as often if I’m, if I’m talking to a reader, you know, it’s, it’s, I think that the reader’s opinions are probably more going to be correct. And they tend to write like, if you look through my reviews, you’ll notice a lot of people will say they can read them very quickly, they’re page turners, that they’re, and I – and I purposely don’t write in particularly flowery language or, um, particularly complex. And now a lot of the plots can be complex, but I want the average person to pick this up and feel like it’s entertainment, not that it’s drudgery. And so I’ve tried to write it in such a way. Plus, I don’t, it’s partly me, too, is I don’t like to read books there. I feel like it’s drudgery where the – where the author is, you know, so smart that I can’t understand half the words in there. But, so I would say, yeah, they would probably say that they’re – they’re page turners, that they’re – that they’re going to be, there’s going to be twists and turns and there’s going to be characters that you love that might get killed off, that you just don’t know what’s going to happen next. That’s right. Debbi: Wow! Well, you make it sound incredibly intriguing. And I have to tell you, I agree with you on the flowery language. I’m with Elmore Leonard. Skip, you know, leave out the parts, people skip. Phil: Yeah, that’s true. That’s exactly right. Debbi: Amen. Phil: That’s a great quote. I love that quote. Debbi: Yeah. I love Elmore Leonard. I mean, the guy was, was awesome. What are you working on now? Phil: I’m working on a book now. The title is a working title, so it may not end up being the title, but it’s, it’s called WHAT HAPPENED IN THE WOODS. And it’s about a – it’s about a young woman who is from the trailer park. She’s grown up hard and she’s works at a fast food place and she’s, a guy comes in and she sort of had, she’s had a rough go lately and she’s – and she laments to herself how people come in, you know, those little plastic boxes where people put cash in for, like, I don’t know, Ronald McDonald House or something. Right? For charity. And they put these in the fast food places. And she’s lamenting in her mind that, you know, fast food workers are the only ones who don’t get tips. Right? And all the other food places, you know, most people, you know, you get tips. So she’s sort of angry about this and she’s thinking about how, and somebody puts some money in the little plastic thing and they kind of look at her for some sort of acknowledgement of their heroism, for putting this money that she’s not getting. Right? And she so just gives them kind of like the smile that doesn’t mean anything. It doesn’t go to her eyes. Right? And then she, and then another guy comes in, puts a large amount, like a five or ten, and the little end of it sticking out. Right? And so she ends up stealing it and gets caught and gets fired. So she really kind of spirals down, and then she ends up running into this guy who is – Claims to be this model scout. And she’s very – She’s very skeptical, but she’s desperate. And she eventually agrees to this $500 modeling gig for the day. Guy takes her out to the woods, and everything seems fine. It all seems in the up and up. He’s a, you know, they do pictures. It’s not, it’s all above board. That’s, you know, clothes on, the whole thing. And then – and then – and then the guy, they do some pictures at this waterfall, and then they see somebody, or she thinks she sees somebody, and he goes to check it out, and then he never comes back. And then she’s – And then all of a sudden, she’s being chased and basically, she’s in a situation where she’s fighting for her life, and at the end, they catch her and do terrible things to her. And then she wakes up in the same room every morning to do it all over again, and she just has no idea what’s happening to her. And that – So it’s a horror. It’s a horror story, and it’s a story about. And it turns out that she has some unique skills, given in the way she grew up. And basically, this group of men took the wrong person for once. And so that’s kind of how the story kicks off. Debbi: That’s interesting! So sort of like a woman in jeopardy but not a victim. Phil: Definitely not. I mean, she’s a victim. Obviously. She’s outnumbered, but not a… Debbi: A helpless victim. Phil: That’s for sure. I guess probably she’s a survivor, right? Debbi: Survivor, yeah. Phil: Yeah, she’s definitely a survivor. And she’s somebody who’s – She’s a small person. She’s petite. You know, she’s not anything. And I don’t like writing about, like, you know, special agents that can beat up anybody. That’s not interesting to me. To me, what’s interesting is, like, okay, let’s take this young girl who has nothing, grew up in poverty, is a small person, put her in the woods with these big men that are used to doing these terrible things to women and see how she would get herself out of this. And it turns out she’s got a very interesting background. And the story is being told in the before time and the after time because in the before time she’s in a situation where her mother goes to prison for drugs, and then she ends up with her a strange father who she hasn’t seen since she was very little. And he’s got his own issues, but he’s a somebody who’s just retired from the military and has some very special skills, but also isn’t quite right mentally. And so he sort of puts her through all these weird, weird trials out in the woods where she vowed after these things that happened when she was younger that she would never go back to the woods. And here she finds herself back in the woods. But a lot of these – a lot of these lessons, which she thought were the most horrible things that she had ever learned when she was a child, she’s finding them quite useful in the now time. So, anyway, yeah, so I’m excited about it. I’m looking forward to finishing it. And the first draft is all done. It’s with my editor now, but hopefully it’ll be out sometime in the winter. Debbi: That’s great. Good to hear. How much research do you do for your novels? Phil: It really depends on what I’m writing about, but I do tend to do a fair amount of research because I think it is really important. You probably agree it’s really important that we get things right, and obviously, we don’t know everything as writers. There’s so many things I’m writing about. Like, if I’m writing about prison, for example, I’ve got my novel REDEMPTION went heavy into prison, and I didn’t really know much about prison. You know, I’ve thankfully never been there, but my brother used to work there, so I interviewed him, you know, on all these different, like, little details about how it was. And then I did a tremendous amount of reading about firsthand prisoner accounts and to get a feel for what it was like. And that’s essentially, I’ll come up with a storyline for what I want to write about, and then as I’m going, I’ll start doing the research, and I’ll find that really changes the plot because as I learn about these different things that, you know, you feel, you figure out, oh, that would never work because they would never do it like that because that’s not what, you know, a plumber would do or that’s not what, you know, whatever profession they are would do. I’ll come up with a storyline for what I want to write about, and then as I’m going, I’ll start doing the research, and I’ll find that really changes the plot because as I learn about these different things that, you know, you feel, you figure out, oh, that would never work. Debbi: Yeah, boy, I know where you’re coming from there, because I’m writing about a female Marine now, a veteran. I’ve never been in the military. What do I know? Right? Phil: Yeah. Right. Debbi: I start reading everything I can written by female veterans. Phil: That’s great! Debbi: I’m just like, whoa. Getting into their heads, and it’s like, whoa. Oh. So that’s how they think. Okay. They would do this in that situation. Oh, my. Phil: That’s the beauty of what we do. I think, though, is that we can, because there’s no two people’s experiences in life are the same. Like, nobody. Not even – Not even twins. Debbi: Exactly. Phil: And so we have the opportunity to empathize with other people’s situations and then put that on the page in a way that’s – And I think the more we get it right, and then the more details and the closer it is to reality, the more I think, the more justice we, we do to those people in similar situations who can read that and look at it and say, hey, that, that reminds me of me. They’re talking about me. You know, they’re – they’re identifying with those characters and those feelings. Debbi: Exactly. Phil: I think that’s a wonderful thing about fiction writing, is that we, in a sense, can make the – Can make the world a more empathetic place, because everybody who reads these books can learn about what it’s like to be somebody other than themselves. And they can see all the parallels. Right? I think that’s a wonderful thing about fiction writing, is that we, in a sense, can make the – Can make the world a more empathetic place, because everybody who reads these books can learn about what it’s like to be somebody other than themselves. I had this conversation with my wife the other day. I said, you know, I’ve heard there’s been some talk of, like, you can’t write. Like, for example, I’m a man. I can’t write. I shouldn’t be writing a first person as a woman, you know, or I shouldn’t be writing somebody who’s a different race or a different whatever, a different sexual orientation. But I told my wife, I was like, look, I’m an empathetic person like everybody else. I know what it’s like to feel lost – to feel left out, to feel alone, to feel ugly, to feel stupid, to feel happy, to feel all the different things like that. These are things we all have in common. And I think, as writers, we definitely have the ability to figure out how somebody else in a completely different background than us might feel in that same situation. And I think that’s one of the beautiful things I love about writing fiction anyway. Debbi: I agree with you completely. I mean, the first screenplay I ever wrote was with a male protagonist. Had a male protagonist. And, well, that’s all I’ll say. I mean, it’s like, you can write whoever you want to write as long as you make it true to that kind of person, you know? Do your research, talk to people? Phil: Absolutely. Debbi: Yeah. So what do you find is the best way to build a readership? Phil: I think that if you’re thinking strategy-wise, I mean, for people that might be listening, that are writers, I mean, I think it helps to stick in one genre. I’ve not done that. I mean, I’ve written, I think, in seven or eight different genres, and I think that helps me as a writer overall. But I don’t think it’s a good way to build a readership because not everybody reads the same type of things. Or, you know, like, my thriller readers are not necessarily going to be my literary fiction readers or my nonfiction readers. And it’s very hard to kind of build a good readership if you’re writing in different places. So the smart thing, the smart play, I think, is to write in one genre, although I’ve, like I said, I’ve broken that rule, but, and then I think, obviously, what we talked about earlier is quality. I think that’s the, more than anything else, if you’re writing great stories that people resonate with and love, I can’t think of a better way to build a readership. But, of course, you’ve got to have the marketing piece, so you have to be able to get people to even read it to begin with. I mean, even giving away books, which used to be much more effective than it is today, most people have, I’ve talked to a lot of readers. They have tens of thousands of books on their Kindle, and they’ve told me, they’re like, if I read nonstop from now until the time I die, I wouldn’t even read 10% of what’s on my Kindle. Debbi: That’s right. That’s exactly right. That is the nature of the problem right there. Phil: Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, as much as I’m – I think there’s still a time and a place to do free books here and there, it’s becoming less and less effective. And ideally, it’s not really about the money or it’s not about $0.99 or free or full price at $4.99 or whatever you want to sell your books for. It’s about getting people to actually read them, you know? And to be honest with you, I think you would probably do better paying people a dollar to read every one of your books than you would giving them away for free and have – and have – and have a tiny fraction of those people read them just because those people that actually read them, if their books were good, they’d probably go on to buy more. Debbi: Yeah. Yeah. Phil: To be honest with you, I’d do that. Anybody wants to read my books, you know, and write a review. You can’t do that — Debbi: I’ll give you a dollar. Phil: Yeah. You don’t have to write a review, just read them. Here’s a dollar. But, yeah, I think that in the long run, you’d probably be better with that than just giving them out. Because I think it’s something like a very, like 10% or less actually read the free books that they get a – Yeah, it’s very low. Debbi: I’m not surprised. I’m not at all surprised, actually. And it’s – That’s the big, big hurdle now, really, just to have your stuff read. Phil: Yeah, it is. There’s just so much. Debbi: It’s too available. Everything’s too available. Phil: Yeah, you’re right. There’s a sea of books out there. Just a sea of them. And how do you, you know, find a way to stand out and it’s. It’s not an easy answer, for sure. Debbi: Not at all. No. What are you reading these days? Phil: I’m reading a…. Debbi: What’s on your book pile… Phil: Let’s see. I’ve got. I’m actually reading OJ IS INNOCENT AND I CAN PROVE IT. I don’t know if you heard that. Debbi: Yeah, I’m looking forward to reading that, actually. Phil: It’s written by William Dear, who’s a private investigator from Texas. It’s very, very interesting. And I’m reading that partly because I’ve got a YouTube channel called Thriller Vault, where I do a lot of – I tell a lot of stories. I’m basically telling stories, but they’re mostly true stories. So, for example, like, I did a story on OJ. He wrote a book. It was through a ghostwriter a while back called If I Did It. I did a really weird book. So I actually wrote a story on that where I’m OJ and I’m just telling the story as if I’m OJ from my perspective, you know, based on the book, you know? And so I did. And so then I got through that. I kind of got interested in, like, oh, well, I came across the William Dear books. I started reading that. And to be honest with you, that’s made me think that it possibly might have been his son and not him, who actually committed the murders, which is wild, because I was firmly in the camp that he’s probably guilty. Like most people, by the numbers, statistically speaking, most people think that he’s guilty. But after reading the William Dear book, I’m starting to really think that it was likely his son Jason that was actually the murderer. Debbi: Well, it’s a very interesting case. Phil: It’s really interesting, but… Debbi: Because as a lawyer, it kind of offends me when people are suspected of something and then people start jumping to conclusions, that that means they’re guilty of something. Phil: Yeah. Debbi: So to hear that this stuff is coming out is very interesting to me. Phil: Yeah. Debbi: What advice would you give to anyone who would like to write for a living? Phil: I would say that’s a good question. I mean, it’s, things have really, things are really moved quickly from when … things are really different from when I started. And they’re… I don’t know what my advice would be. Let me think about this for a sec. I would say…. I would say…. I would say, go into it with….. I would say, you want to be hopeful because, like, for me, I was very naive when I started, and I was very, like, hopeful that. And I think everybody who’s starting out, they’re like, oh, I’m going to write the greatest novel ever, and it’s going to be an instant bestseller. And, you know, we have these – we have these crazy ideas early on. But I think that as much as it’s embarrassing for me to admit that that’s kind of how I felt when I was first starting out, I think it was necessary to have that naivete because you don’t realize how hard it is. And I think that if I didn’t have that hope in the beginning, I probably wouldn’t have, like, if you told me, hey, Phil, you’re not going to make any money till you write at least ten books. I don’t know. I mean, that’s a daunting past for somebody who’s never written a novel. So me going into it, very naive, is like, oh, well, this first book didn’t work out, but that was pretty fun, and I did a pretty good job. And we try another one, and then you’re like, oh, this one’s going to work out. Okay, well, maybe not. So then you’re ten books in. You’re like, okay, well, I’m starting to see some progress, but had I gone into it with realizing how daunting the task is. I think I would recommend go into it with some hope and try to have fun with it. And if it’s something you enjoy doing, I think it’s something you should pursue. So I think – I think I would recommend go into it with some hope and try to have fun with it. And if it’s something you enjoy doing, I think it’s something you should pursue. But if it’s something you don’t like, and hate. And you’re just doing this because, you know, you think this is some path to. I can’t imagine anybody thinks that, thinks that this is a path to wealth because I don’t think it is. Debbi: It’s not. Phil: I mean, I guess it could be for some people, but it’s more of a – it’s more of a labor of love, I think, than that. And, but if you, I think if you go into it with that and then whatever upside you get financially is great, but I wouldn’t go into it with, I’m going to be a millionaire author or something like that. I mean, it’s certainly possible, but I don’t think that. I don’t think – if money is your goal, I don’t think writing is probably the right profession for you, if money is your top goal. Now we all have to make money and live, of course. But anyway, that’s probably where I would. Debbi: Yeah. Yeah. It really is not a quick path to riches at all. Phil: No. Debbi: And the people who make the big money are outliers. Phil: For sure. Debbi: It happens. But ….. Phil: Yeah, a lot of them are very old at this point. Like they’ve been around for a very long time. Debbi: Right. They have time they have built up. Phil: And the trad publishers are basically holding on to their names with a death grip. Even when they die. They’re hiring new authors to write their, under their name. Debbi: They’ve created brands. Phil: So if you’re a new person trying. Yes, if you’re a new person trying to break into the traditional publishing game, good luck with that. It’s not the way it used to be, where there were some chances. It’s much more difficult now. Debbi: It’s very hard. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up? Phil: No, that’s it. Just thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it. Debbi: Well, it was my pleasure, believe me. And thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate the chance to talk to you about all of this stuff because it’s very interesting. Phil: Oh, thank you! One thing I would want to mention, if anybody who wants the audiobook, if they just email me, I think the email is in the show notes and they can just email me and ask. And as long as they have audible for the US or the UK, I can send them the audio books, the codes for it, and all they have to do is have the app. So they have to be on Audible to get it. But it’s totally free. Debbi: Fantastic! Phil: Anybody who emails me, I’ll be happy to send them a audiobook. That’s what my evil plan is. I give you a free audiobook and get you hooked, and then you’ll buy some. Debbi: Well, that’s a very nice, benign, evil plan, I gotta say. So on that note, thank you so much again, Phil! And thank you to everyone listening! Thank you for listening or for watching on YouTube, depending on what you’re doing. And our next guest on the show will be Michael Young. In the meantime, take care and happy reading! ***** For ad-free episodes, bonuses and more, become a patron of the podcast right here!

This week’s ad-free episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Weldon Burge. Check out the first interview of our Tenth Season. Dear God Good grief! Has it really been ten years? And check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe You can download the transcript here! 🙂 Debbi: Hi everyone. This is the first episode of our 10th season here at The Crime Cafe. And boy, that decade sure went fast. Where did all that time go? In any case our guest today is a writer, indie publisher, and a full-time editor, although I now believe he has retired, but we can talk about that. He’s written numerous articles for various publications as a freelancer. His first novel, Harvester of Sorrow was originally published by Suspense Publishing, but is now published through his own company, Smart Rhino Publications, which focuses mostly on horror and suspense thriller books. He has also published 17 books. That company has published 17 books, including the most recent anthology, Asinine Assassins. There’s the tongue twister for you – Asinine Assassins – which I believe is also part of a trilogy. His latest short story collection is Toxic Candy, which he is offering as a giveaway. Check the notes in this recording for his guest post and giveaway details. Alrighty then. So in any case, it is a great pleasure for me to introduce Weldon Burge as my guest today. Hey, Weldon. Weldon: Hi. Thanks, Debbi. Good to hear you. Debbi: It’s great to see you and great to hear you, and glad to have you on the show. So you are no longer working full-time and you are devoting yourself to writing fiction these days? Weldon: Yes. Pretty much. Debbi: As well as publishing. Weldon: If a nonfiction job comes up, I will take it, but I’m focusing primarily on fiction at this point. Debbi: Yeah, yeah. I reached a point where I pretty much said, okay, that’s all I’m going to do. Weldon: Well, I was working for an educational consulting firm, so I was dealing with PhDs every day, and then I’d come home and I have to get into fiction because I’d had enough brainy stuff all day long. So now that I’m retired, I’m going full force into the fiction and enjoying it. I love it. Debbi: Awesome. That’s great. That’s a wonderful thing. So how do you structure your writing schedule? Weldon: I don’t. I mean, I’m constantly writing. I’m constantly writing notes, bits of dialogue that come into my head I will write down. So as far as the schedule goes, it’s just whenever I have time to do something, I’ll do it. But I have things churning in my head constantly, so getting something on paper is something I do all day long. Ideas come for me and I try to work them out in my head, and I have notebooks everywhere, notes everywhere, and when I have time to sit down and do it, I do it. I’m constantly writing notes, bits of dialogue that come into my head I will write down. So as far as the schedule goes, it’s just whenever I have time to do something, I’ll do it. Debbi: Yeah. Notes everywhere. I think that’s kind of like a writer’s life. Notes everywhere. Weldon: Yes, that’s right. That’s right. Debbi: What was it that inspired you to create the Ezekiel Marrs character, and what are your plans for the series? Weldon: Okay. Actually there’s one chapter in the book that has nothing to do with Ezekiel Marrs. That actually spun the tale for me. There’s a section in the book where a teenage couple find a body in the woods, and that was the very first thing that came into my head, and everything kind of spread from there. Ezekiel Marrs was first called Simon something, and it went through umpteen different names, and I liked the Ezekiel because of the biblical parlance there and then Marrs because it’s out there. So I like the idea of that name, and it’s fairly unique, which was the other thing I was looking for. The character kind of grew out from himself. It was kind of interesting how that occurred. I always wanted to do police procedurals. I have always been interested in that sort of thing, you know, CSI kind of stuff, so it was just kind of a no-brainer to go in that direction for that book. Debbi: What makes you interested in procedurals particularly, do you think? Weldon: I’m not sure actually. I really hit into Ed McBain’s books back in the eighties, I guess it was, and I’ve read every single one of them. I think there’s 50-some of those books. The Steve Carella character, I really enjoyed that character because it was a policeman who was a no-nonsense type of guy, very structured and very family-like, and I like that character, and I kind of tailored Ezekiel Marrs with that character in mind. So that’s kind of got me into it. And then of course, the CSI shows and so forth, which are totally unbelievable, but I think they’re cool. So I was looking at all of that. When I was doing the Harvester of Sorrow, I wanted to make it as real as possible, so I talked to cops. I actually did a police academy here in my hometown just to get a feel for what cops are doing, and that helped considerably when I was writing the book. Debbi: That’s interesting. You’re in Delaware, correct? Weldon: Yes. Debbi: And there’s a cop academy right in your hometown? Weldon: It’s in Newark, Delaware, and it’s a community type of thing. I think there were maybe 20 of us, and it was interesting because we got to go out and do things with the cops, ride alongs and that sort of thing, and it’s very illuminating to see what actually goes on. I think anyone who’s writing crime fiction should do this sort of thing to get out there and see hands on how cops do things. Debbi: Yeah, absolutely. It’s an education for sure. What made you decide to start a publishing company? Weldon: I’ve always enjoyed working with other writers. We have a very good community of writers here in Delaware, Northern Delaware, and I enjoy working with all of them, and I’ve always had in mind to do anthologies because of that. When I started the company, I had anthologies in mind. So I did the Zippered Flesh Trilogy, I did the Assassins Trilogy, several others and I enjoyed all of that. I mean, I’ve worked with probably nearly a hundred writers at this point, very diverse in their abilities, and I’ve probably learned more from them than they’ve learned from me, which is kind of cool, and all of that. I mean, I enjoy not only working with the writers, but teaching them. I’ve been doing a lot of workshops and that sort of thing recently. I’ve always enjoyed working with other writers. We have a very good community of writers here in Delaware, Northern Delaware, and I enjoy working with all of them, and I’ve always had in mind to do anthologies because of that. I worked with the library system here in northern Delaware, particularly the Kirkwood Library in Milton. We’ve been setting up an author series. We do a monthly thing now. We just did one on book covers before that. We did a panel discussion on self-publishing. The one next, well, actually the end of this month is about structuring novels. So I’ve lined up a number of writers in each of these specific categories and had them come in and teach these classes. So it’s becoming really a rolling ball kind of a thing, and more and more people are coming. The last thing, we had 43 people there, and the library was ecstatic that we were able to get 43 people in one room. So I love that kind of thing when we can do that sort of a community thing. Debbi: That is such a great example of what authors should be doing, focusing on the local market. Weldon: Yes, and if you look at it from a marketing perspective, my name is getting out there because of this material that I’m doing, and the same with the authors that I’m pulling in to do the teaching. So every time we go out there, we have setups for our books. The end of this month, I have someone who’s doing novel structuring. She’ll have her books there as well so it’s not only a teaching, but it’s a selling and marketing opportunity for the writers. So that’s very important to these folks. I find that teaching these classes is a far better way to market your books than say, signings. You have a signing and people come in the door and they just go right around you. They know it’s a hard sell, but if they’re learning something and say, oh, there’s something cool about this book, they’re more likely to buy it. So I think it’s very popular with the writers and very popular with the readers. I find that teaching these classes is a far better way to market your books than say, signings. You have a signing and people come in the door and they just go right around you. They know it’s a hard sell, but if they’re learning something and say, oh, there’s something cool about this book, they’re more likely to buy it. Debbi: Absolutely. Very smart. What’s your process for planning, organizing and publishing the anthologies? Weldon: Usually I talk with some writers that I know in the area. There used to be a group here called the Written Remains Writers Guild, which was dissolved in the past few years, but I worked a good deal with them too. The anthologies, in fact, that we published, were in tandem with that group so it worked out very well. But what was your question again? Debbi: Oh, just wanted to know what your process was for putting these anthologies together. How did you get the authors? How do you organize everything? Weldon: Well, when I started out the whole … I come from a marketing background, so I knew that the best way for a new publisher to get going is with an anthology, because you automatically have 20-plus writers who are all going to hit their material on social media. So for me, it’s free advertising. So it’s a good opportunity for them to build their portfolios. But it’s also good marketing for me to get the book out. So with the first anthologies, the Zippered Flesh horror thing, it’s a body horror thing and it sold very well. It was actually up for two Bram Stoker awards, and that’s unusual, very unusual for a first time publisher. That really exploded the whole thing so I was very lucky to have that anthology. I think if it was a one-off just by me, a self-published novel, it would not have had the impact that it did. I come from a marketing background, so I knew that the best way for a new publisher to get going is with an anthology, because you automatically have 20-plus writers who are all going to hit their material on social media. So working with those 20-plus writers, what I did is I solicited some name writers, Graham Masterton. I managed to get him and who else? Joe Lansdale, I’ve landed for one. My thinking is that if we have a name author in the anthology that will draw people in. A lot of the other writers are just excellent writers that haven’t had a chance to get out there, so it’s been pretty cool to have someone say, I bought the book for the Graham Masterton story, but I really like the one by Sean Meeks. I never heard of the guy before, and I need to look at his books because I really liked what he wrote. And that’s the kind of thing that I’m looking to do with all this material. I love having people pick up books and read authors that they’ve not known before. And that’s one of the joys actually of doing an anthology is hearing people grab onto other authors that they’ve not met or read before. For me, that’s a big plus to be able to help writers in that way. Debbi: I’m with you there. Totally. I totally agree. That’s fantastic. It’s a great approach. I also noticed that you have done a lot of nonfiction as well, haven’t you? Weldon: Yeah, I actually started as a journalist. I come from a journalism background. I wrote a lot for newspapers and magazines, and one of my things – this freaks people out – I was a garden writer for a long time. I wrote for Organic Gardening, Fine Gardening, that sort of thing. So how do you make the shift from gardening to body horror? People are like, where did that come from? I always enjoyed reading horror, and I always enjoyed gardening and always enjoyed doing album reviews and book reviews and all that sort of thing, and feature stories for night newspapers. I was fairly diverse in what I was able to do, and I’ve been doing it since I was 16, so it’s just something I love to do. I’m a born writer, I think. It’s just where I’m at. So nonfiction was a good start. It kind of gave me the learning experience of working with editors, especially with newspaper editors where you have to get something in like this. You can’t be sitting on something. So that taught me how to get material out in a great way and be able to self edit to make sure whatever I put in front of the editor was already ready to go. I think a lot of the younger writers that I’ve come across in my job in particular have not quite learned that yet. They’re on their way, but it takes a long time to get into that groove, I think. But getting into the groove, starting early and writing as much as I could, I think it helped a great deal for all that I’m doing right now. Debbi: Absolutely. Journalism is a great background. I was a journalism major and did a little bit of journalism years ago. Weldon: I would tell people if they ever have a chance to edit to do so, because that’s one of the best learning experiences that I’ve ever had is working with other writers, and figuring out how to work with them to bring out the best product. Some writers have a problem with that because they think you’re attacking them. There’s something bad about that and it really isn’t. The editor wants the same thing that the writer does, which is to have a good product, to have a good story or an article, and learning how to do that, I think helps a lot as a publisher, but also as a writer. Debbi: Yes. You do have to learn to accept constructive criticism. Weldon: Yes. Yes. Debbi: I don’t understand people who feel precious about their words. So precious, they can’t … Weldon: There have been – not many, but there have been a few that have submitted material to the anthologies where I had to reject it because they were not willing to work with me. One fellow in particular who had actually published before sent me this story and it was littered with the grammatical errors and misspellings, and I went through with him to fix that, and he had a problem with some of the changes I made, and after three drafts I finally gave up. But the thing was, if it was a new writer that I was not familiar with and had not worked with before, I would’ve rejected the thing straight out based on what I saw. It’s not unusual for me to reject a story before I even finish the first page, based on misspellings and grammatical errors. I know right off the bat that this is going to be a hard writer to work with. Debbi: Yeah. Yeah. Weldon: But with this guy, I published one of his stories before and it was excellent, and I couldn’t figure out why this was so bad, and he wasn’t willing to fix it, so … Debbi: Oh my gosh. Weldon: Yeah. It was just kind of weird. It was funny because afterward he didn’t take offense to it. He just didn’t understand what I was looking for, I think, so it was more of a misunderstanding than anything else. And he submitted things beyond that, which I also rejected, unfortunately. But he knew what I was looking for after that and knew that if he sent something to me, I was going to be generous and fairly open-minded with what he submitted. I try to do that with everyone when I do that. The other thing is that I always answer. When someone sends me something, I think it’s courteous to give them some kind of response. Usually I try to be positive with it and tell them exactly what is wrong that made me reject it, and also I would tell them if you fix this or that, you can send it out again and someone else might pick it up because it might be good writing. It just doesn’t fit what I’m looking for at that moment. Debbi: Yeah. It’s interesting. In screenwriting, you’re always getting notes from people, whether it’s people who are reading to criticize your work, a producer, a financier, whoever. And if you can’t learn to sit with that note and figure out what it is they’re really saying, you’re not going to get anywhere. Weldon: I think that the main problem is the misunderstanding of what you’re looking for. Debbi: Precisely. Weldon: Another story. The first anthology I mentioned was The Zippered Flesh, which is a body horror thing. And I got this story and I’m reading it, and it was a romance story. I’m reading it thinking, God, there has to be like a third arm or something in here somewhere. And by the time I finished the story, there was nothing. It was just a romance story. It was well written, but had nothing to do with the theme, and so I went online and onto Amazon and checked out this author, and sure enough, she was a romance writer. So why would a romance writer send something about body horror that’s titled Zippered Flesh is beyond me. Debbi: I don’t know. Weldon: I think it was just a shotgun approach. You know how some people just throw something out there hoping it will land somewhere, and that’s just a waste of time for me, and even more a waste of time for the writer. Debbi: Absolutely. Absolutely. You have to know what the publication you’re pitching is looking for. Weldon: It amazes me that people don’t do that. Debbi: It does seem obvious, doesn’t it? Weldon: And I can guarantee you, if I saw that author again, I wouldn’t read it. Debbi: Oh, interesting. What advice would you give to anyone who’s interested in writing for a living? Weldon: Ooh, that’s a good question. Be patient, be prolific. I mean, you have to be cranking this stuff out constantly. A lot of the writers I know who write crime fiction believe in writing series, and you’re one of them actually. Series seems to be the way to be successful in this particular genre. That’s kind of what I’m striving for. I think the main thing is to continue to churn things out, even if you’re not selling. The more you churn out, the better it will be. Ray Bradbury said that if you write a story every week, you write 52 stories a year, something’s going to sell. If not, you’re going to at least learn the craft as you move along. So I think you have to keep at the wheel, keep going at the thing, and you might not be successful, but you definitely won’t be successful if you don’t do that. Be patient, be prolific. I mean, you have to be cranking this stuff out constantly. A lot of the writers I know who write crime fiction believe in writing series … Series seems to be the way to be successful in this particular genre. Debbi: Absolutely. You have to write in order to be a writer. Weldon: You have to pay your dues. Debbi: Just keep writing. Pay your dues. Exactly. What authors have most inspired your own writing? Weldon: I mentioned Ed McBain earlier. I really like his stuff. Let’s see who else. That’s a good question. I’m trying to think about who I’ve read recently. I like the Thomas Harris stuff, obviously – Red Dragon, that sort of thing. I’m just blanking out right now. As you can see, I have a huge library of stuff back here, and … Debbi: Yeah, yeah. Weldon: You caught me. I’m sorry. Debbi: That’s okay. Well, Ed McBain is a great example. Weldon: I loved his stuff. And it’s interesting because he started writing these books back in the fifties, I think it was way back when. I think his last book was in the eighties. And the characters pretty much didn’t change. Even though the years went by, Steve Carella, the lead character didn’t change all that much, which I thought was interesting that McBain could keep that continuity and still make it interesting over those decades. I mean, that’s just amazing to me that he is able to do that. Debbi: Yeah. That is pretty remarkable. A lot of times, he stays … Weldon: He wrote under pseudonyms as well. Evan Hunter, I think is his actual name. He wrote a number of other things. He’s churning them out left and right. Jeffery Deaver. I’ve read a lot of Jeffery’s stuff. He’s another one that I don’t know how he does it. He must write two or three books a year. I did meet – I think you might have met him too at C3. Debbi: Yes, yes. Weldon: C3 conference. I talked to him briefly, and it sounds like he writes constantly. Even at the conference, he would pull out his laptop or whatever and turn away until someone started to bug him. Jonathan Maberry, I just met recently too, and he’s the same way. If he has a minute, he pops open the laptop and works until someone comes along and he starts talking to them. So every opportunity they have, they write so you know that whatever it is is going on in their head constantly and they’re chomping at the bit to get something down on paper or on the computer. Debbi: Well, I always find it remarkable when people can just switch like that from being with other people or writing and being with somebody in and out. That kind of flow. Weldon: I think a lot of it is subconscious. It’s always working in the background. . and that’s just a writer thing, I think. Debbi: I have actually done writing just in airports with paper and pen. It’s kind of like, okay, I’m here. I’m bored. I’ll just write something. Weldon: I’m sure this happened to you too. You’ll have something in your head when you wake up in the middle of the night and you grab for paper or something to write it down. I used to keep a notebook right next to the bed, and the problem with that was I’d wake up and write something real quick and then fall back to sleep. And then in the morning I look at the notebook and it’s gibberish. I have no idea what it is, and I think a lot of writers are that way too. The other thing is, in the shower, things come to your head when you’re in the shower and unless you’re great on the wall, you’re not going to remember it. Debbi: I know. Yeah. That’s happened to me quite a bit. Let’s see. Tell us a little bit about Toxic Candy, your giveaway. Weldon: Ah, okay. Actually, I have a copy here. I tried to pull together a diverse group of tales. I think there are 14 stories in here. I was looking to do the crime fiction. I have science fiction, a lot of fantasy stuff. There’s a lot of different things in here, and these are all stories that I’ve had published over the years. So there are sea monsters in here. It’s all kinds of stuff. So I had fun writing and pulling it together, but it kind of reflects what I’ve written for the past 20-plus years. Debbi: Sounds like it has a variety of genres. Weldon: Yeah. Well, it’s says right here, tales of suspense, fantasy and horror. Debbi: That covers quite a bit Weldon: That’s it. If you’re living in Delaware, you’ll find a lot of references to Delaware in here, and people seem to enjoy that too. Debbi: That’s cool. Very cool. I love when you can bring in details of a place. Weldon: Actually, Rehoboth Beach is mentioned in two different stories. One is with the sea monsters, and the other one’s about the haunted house on the boardwalk, so they were really fun to write. Debbi: That’s great. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up? Weldon: Well, this is the Harvester of Sorrow book right here. I’m working on the sequel, mainly doing notes right now. I’m also writing a paranormal. It’s a paranormal police procedural. It’s kind of a mouthful, but I’m working on that right now, and I’m hoping that’ll be the start of another series. The plan right now is to do the Harvester series, the Ezekiel Marrs stuff, as well as the new series, and doing two books a year. That might be a little much, I don’t know, but that’s the plan right now so we’ll see how that goes. Debbi: Well, congratulations on what you’ve done so far. Weldon: Thank you. Debbi: It’s really fantastic, I think. I really appreciate your being on today. Thank you. Weldon: Oh, thank you. It was great. Debbi: Awesome. Well, on that note, I will just say thank you to all my listeners as well. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave a review. It helps. Also, check out our Patreon page where we have ad-free episodes and bonus content for patrons. On that note, I’ll just say take care. Our guest on the next episode will be Clay Stafford. Take care and happy reading until next time. Be seeing you. Weldon: Thanks, Debbi. ***** Consider becoming a patron here!  

This episode of the Crime Cafe features my interview with crime writer Laurie Buchanan. Among other things, we talk about her (planned) nine-book Sean McPherson series. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so. We also have a shop now. Check it out! Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe Download a copy of the transcript here. Debbi: Hi everyone. My guest today is the author of the Sean McPherson series, and while Sue Grafton had her alphabet series, this author has picked one letter and stuck with it—the letter I. All the books in the series have one-word titles that start with I, which I think is really kind of cool. The latest one released is Impervious, and the next one will be called Iniquity. It’s my pleasure to have with me today Laurie Buchanan. Hi, Laurie. How are you doing today? Laurie: Hi, Debbi. I’m fine. Thank you for having me. I’m looking forward to talking with you. Debbi: Awesome. Well, I’m glad to have you here. The last time you were here, your first book was out, right? Indelible? Laurie: Yes. Yes. Debbi: And that established the story of Sean McPherson, who works at this kind of place where writers’ retreats are held. Laurie: Exactly. Pines & Quill is a writing retreat in the Pacific Northwest, and now by Iniquity, which comes out this April—it’s a premier now. It has had so many people, and now there’s this huge waiting list and you need to be background checked and so on and so forth, because some murders have taken place there. Some from without and some from within. So they’re being more than cautious. And the neighbors can see when first responders come, oh, what’s going on there? There’s paramedics, there’s police, there’s whatever it is. And then the news crews come over. So we’ve gotten now pretty far into the story, so Book Four Iniquity comes out in April, and Book Five is with the publisher. I just finished writing Book Six. It went to the beta readers, and I’m now starting Insidious, Book Seven. Debbi: Oh my goodness. Laurie: Yes. I’m on a nine-book contract right now. It went from one to three to five to seven to nine, and I suspect it will grow. Debbi: Good heavens, nine books! Well, this is very interesting, because you have anticipated a few of my questions already. Well, we can talk about that, though. Boy. Nine books! How has the story of Sean McPherson developed over time so far? Laurie: So we’ve gotten now where there’s three very close friends—a private investigator, Sean McPherson, one of his two best friends, homicide Detective Joe Bingham, and then his other best friend, Sean Rafferty. Because there are two Seans, they go by their last name. Sean McPherson goes by Mick, Sean Rafferty goes by Rafferty, and he’s an FBI special agent, and the three of them work together very well. Two of them, the homicide detective and the FBI special agent, have constraints, bureaucratic constraints. There are some things they cannot do because they are law enforcement agents. And because Sean is a PI in the state of Washington, he carries a gun. He doesn’t have bureaucracy to answer to. He doesn’t break the law, but he doesn’t have the same constraints. So the three of them can get places and accomplish things that they wouldn’t be able to do if they were all just police or all just FBI. So they’ve got this three thing going on. Now where I’m at in the story, Sean McPherson in Impervious, which is the one that we’re talking about today, Sean and Emma get married. They go to New Orleans, which is a destination location for weddings and horrific things happen there. Somebody who is near and dear to the readers’ hearts while they’re there dies in San Francisco, which stops the honeymoon and Sean leaves. Emma, his brand-new bride, stays for a different reason and things happen. And you can see the front cover here is a swamp and it’s an alligator-infested swamp and things take place. Debbi: It does have a very New Orleans vibe to it, or a Louisiana vibe. Laurie: Louisiana. Absolutely! Debbi: I can practically picture … What is that movie? The one with… The one that takes place in the swamps of Louisiana. It’s really scary at parts. Laurie: I’m thinking of Dueling Banjos, and I know that’s not it. Debbi: Not that one. It’s the other one with Powers Boothe. Laurie: Oh, I don’t know. Debbi: And it’s just eluding me. Well, it’s great. It’s a great movie. That’s all I know. I’ll think of the name eventually, probably after this is over. Anybody who loves movies probably is saying the name and saying, “Debbi, Debbi, it’s this one.” Laurie: They’re shouting it out. Debbi: Yes. Your book descriptions always seem to mention the occupations of various characters who are at the retreat to write. How do you decide what your ensemble characters are going to do for a living? Laurie: That’s a great question, and in fact, for Book Seven, I had to create, I had to give birth to the four writers in residence that will be there. And I always want them to be something interesting, somebody who would actually be writing a book. So I just created, one of them is a standup comedian. Her book is—I always get to come up with their titles too. That’s hard. You know how hard it is to come up for your own title. It’s equally hard. Hers is called Unzipping My Genes In Public: A Humorous Look at Genealogy and Genetics. One is a former nun and hers is called Out of Habit, a memoir. One is Sarah Tedesco. She’s an advocate for human rights, and she’s a well-known author. She’s in a wheelchair and she’s continuing a series called In Cahoots for children, so that kids in a wheelchair with prosthetics don’t succumb to bullying and they feel proud of themselves. And the final one is Jane Allen. She’s a New York Times bestselling author who you will find out doesn’t write her own books. She goes to writing retreats and murders someone there and steals their manuscripts and pawns them off as her own. So we’ve got those. So it’s fun for me to be able to come up with these characters and the titles of their books, making sure that they don’t already exist on Amazon or anywhere. Who are they? Where could they be coming from? How can I use them in the book? And so every time I write a book, I have to write the entire book around that one I word that’s four syllables long. So we have Indelible, Iconoclast, Impervious, Iniquity, Illusionist—I just turned it in. Hold on, let me, I’m cheating here—Illusionist, Innocuous, and now I’m writing Insidious. So a lot of thought has to go around writing around one word, writing around the meaning of that word. What negative thing can take place around that word? And of course, when you write crime thrillers as you know, what does the protagonist have to lose you? You have to have that—what does the protagonist have to lose. And so as I write my character bible for each of these things, also for them—and it may not ever appear in the story—what is their secret that they don’t want anybody to find out, because that’s how they approach life. That’s the set of lenses they look through. And it may again never be something that the reader finds out, but I write around that secret and that I word. Debbi: That’s fantastic. That’s absolutely fantastic. You’re kind of a natural for adaptation to television, frankly . Laurie: Wouldn’t that be fun? Wouldn’t that be fun? Debbi: Wouldn’t that be fun? She said with a smile. Hmm. Well, you have a plan for how the stories are going to go obviously, because you’re all the way up to book what … Seven? Laurie: Seven, yes. Debbi: Lord! Do you have an idea of where you’re going to go with Eight and Nine? Laurie: Well, I won’t write this one—I would love to—Indigenous. In the Pacific Northwest, there are reservations and so forth, but because I’m not Native American, I wouldn’t want to step … somebody else can write that book. But I am going to write Iditarod, which takes place in the month of March up in Alaska. Going to go do a lot of research for that. I’m also going to write Imitation. That’s one of them that’s coming down the line. That’s going to involve Sean McPherson’s mom, who’s in her seventies and she’s retired FBI so she knows exactly what she’s doing and something horrific will be happening. Now, as you know, writing the mystery series that you do, the McRae Mysteries, you have to be able to drop breadcrumbs previously and follow them up. I’m not a huge fan of red herrings. I don’t trick the readers. I don’t want to say, well a-ha! I want to have viable breadcrumbs that if they’ve been reading the series, they’re like, oh my gosh. That’s right. That happened. They saw this in the morgue when they opened that drawer, and there was the diver in that suit, and he had this Russian blade. And so it’s something I can build on, but you have to have enough of an idea. I never know how any of the books is going to end. Haven’t a clue. I just know the direction I’m going, and I use my character bible as my compass. That’s my true north and I just follow it, but I know enough that if I’m going to be writing this, I better be dropping these hints now. I better do this. I never know how any of the books is going to end. Haven’t a clue. I just know the direction I’m going, and I use my character bible as my compass. Debbi: Yeah. Yeah. Because if you want something to happen, say in Book Eight, and plant a seed for it in Book Three, you need that bible to kind of create that link. Laurie: Exactly, and I do have a guy in a drawer that they took the wetsuit off of, and there was a particular tattoo, and fastened to him with a belt was this particular knife. Someone had died from a knife with the same jiggy-jag kind of a thing with a Russian blade, with the manufacturer. You’ve got to be able to speak authentically with whatever weapons you’re using, whatever fight scenes, and you have to plot it out, and that’s half the fun. I don’t know if you’re like me. I don’t sleep well. because my mind is busy. I lay there with my eyes closed and I’m not wiggling around, but I’m busy. And if I think of something, I always keep my phone on the nightstand and I’ll pick it up and I’ll say Laurie, don’t forget this. Remember that. Hey, this is a good idea, or check this. What about that? Remember those spies in World War II. What was that thing that they called? They had a fake tooth. Their upper left back quadrant, they would remove the tooth, put in there a pill that if they got caught, they could knock that tooth out with their tongue, bite into it and die. What was that really called and what was in it? Would the morgue pick that up if they weren’t looking? Would the M.E. be able to pick that up if they weren’t looking for it? You have to be able to do this. I have talked with M.E.s, with psychologists, with psychiatrists, with the SWAT team here in Boise, Idaho. I’ve gotten to … let me see here where I thank people. I’ve gotten to talk to a detective in the Major Crime unit. I’ve gotten to go to the crime lab here, forensic pathologist. I’ve talked with a private investigator, Dickie Floyd. He writes detective novels, a forensic psychologist, and a chief public defender. I mean, I go and I ask for their time, and they’re happy. No one has ever told me no, because they are going to get thanked back here, and they give me the lowdown. How would you do this? How could that happen? I ask, and I ask and I ask. They’re so gracious and they step up to the plate and they say, this is what would happen. This is most likely the weapon that they would use, and in response, this is what we would do. And it’s really fun. Debbi: Sounds like you do a lot of primary research. Laurie: I do. Debbi: How much time do you spend on research and how do you organize your research? Laurie: I’m very organized. Almost everything for me, I keep on my laptop. I’m not a messy person. I dot my i’s, I cross my t’s. I don’t have a bunch of stuff. I work with an almost blank desk. I get my research done in advance, so when I get on my laptop, all of the tabs are closed. I don’t have Google open, I don’t have Facebook open. My phone is in a drawer in airplane mode. I just power through it. At three o’clock, I stop. Doesn’t matter what’s going on, what’s happening. I get up at four. I walk six miles a day, three two-mile increments so I get my walking done. I put a headlamp on. I’m in the Pacific Northwest. It’s very dark at that time of morning. I take my dog and we go and come back. Butt in Chair. I use the BIC method—Butt in Chair—and I write, write, write, write, write, stop. Two more miles, come back, Butt in Chair. Write, write, write, write, write, and I end my day at three o’clock. Two more miles. I’m done. I’m done. My brain is mush. Debbi: Wow! Well, that’s very diligent and an excellent routine, I have to say. Walking is a great thing to do. Laurie: It is, because your pot is simmering on the back burner of your brain, and it helps you drop things off that you don’t need, think of things that you need. I have, like I said, a nine-book contract. My publisher, Spark Press could let me go at any time, just like our contracts are written where I could let them go. If I don’t hit certain bars, they can let me go. Effective August 1st of this year, I no longer have Pacific Group West as my distributor. It’s Simon & Schuster. That raised the bar like you can’t believe. So the book that’s coming out, I went out and studied their catalog. What we had had, we have these blueprints that we work with, and this is what I envisioned for my cover. This is how I want my pages laid out. Well, I had to Simon & Schuster-ize from Iniquity on. I thought I was done, and I still needed to write because I have to hit a target of a book release every April. And it’s not easy. It sounds like I just sit down and it flows out of my head. No, that’s not true. That doesn’t happen. I bang it out of my head. It sounds like I just sit down and it flows out of my head. No, that’s not true. That doesn’t happen. I bang it out of my head. So I had to back up and Simon & Schuster-ize all of this stuff that takes place. You know on the back of a book, you’ve got what we’ve always called the hook in the past; they call it a keynote. It has to be 250 characters—not words—including spaces and periods and commas and everything. No longer, no more. And this is what it must contain. It cannot recreate anything down here. And then this is this many words with this many spaces, and it must contain…. And that was an amazing feat. Now moving forward, it won’t be hard, but I had to re-up several books for that, but it’s an exciting thing. What a great reason. I have to do this because of Simon & Schuster. Well, I like having that problem. Debbi: Can’t say I blame you. I can see the benefits. How would you describe your writing in terms of sub-genre? Is it thriller, suspense, mystery? Laurie: It is a little of each, but it’s mostly thriller. On my bookmarks, it’s the Sean McPherson crime thrillers, but it does contain mystery, it does contain suspense, almost from the get-go in any book. It’s very Alfred Hitchcockian in that. Remember, he puts the bomb under the table and the people in the audience get to see that, but the characters don’t know. The movie stars on the screen don’t know. So that’s where the suspense comes in. Right from the get-go in my books, almost within the first chapter, you know who the bad guy or gal is. You know but the other characters in the book don’t. That’s what makes it suspenseful. So the reader is going, “Don’t go into the forest. No, don’t go into the garage. Don’t go in the kitchen no matter what you do,” because the reader knows what’s going on, but the characters in the book don’t. And that’s an Alfred Hitchcock method, and that’s what makes it suspenseful. Debbi: Yes, very much so. What do you think has been the most effective way that you connect with your readers? Laurie: Two ways for me. I am very interactive with readers on Facebook and Instagram. I just recently left Twitter. I left 12,000 people behind, but I wasn’t excited to stay there anymore. So I get a lot done there. I live very close to Boise State University. I get invited to speak there a lot. When I speak, then I get readers. I belong to the Blackbird Writers. I get to do stuff with them. I get readers, then I get to interact with them. I do book signings. I get to go to where my stories take place. They pivot from the Fairhaven Historic District in Bellingham, Washington. I go there, I do a book launch at Village Books, and I get to meet people and talk with people, so connecting. So for me, social media is social. If somebody says something, I respond. I would never not respond. I have a newsletter and I have a blog and that type of thing. So it is responding to people who reach out and say, will you talk with my book club? Will you Zoom in? We’re in Maryland. Would you Zoom? Sure, I will. Sure I will. So for me, social media, I get to talk with people there. I see you all the time out on Instagram. I think you see me back. I’m out there quite often. I like to take pictures. I take my own pictures, and then I get them out there, and that spurs conversation. Debbi: Yes. I like taking pictures too, actually. I’ve really gotten into photography lately. It’s enjoyable. If your books were adapted into a series for television say, who could you picture playing the lead characters? Laurie: Henry Cavill for Sean McPherson for sure. And I’m going to not think of her name. She’s just lovely. She was in Superman and she was the sidekick gal. She has red hair and I cannot think of her name, but that is who I would pick for Sean and Emma. I can’t think of her name. I’ll think of it later, like when you think of the Powers Booth movie. Debbi: Yeah, that Powers Boothe movie is still eluding me. Laurie: And I can’t think of this person’s name either. Debbi: Oh gosh. I hate when that happens. Laurie: I know. Debbi: What insights or advice would you offer to anyone who’s interested in writing for a living? Laurie: The most important thing is to show up. The second most important thing is to be concise, and the third most important thing is to be consistent. You don’t show up every other day or every other week. You show up every day. You’re concise. We live in that time now, our place in the world now, our time in history is sound bites. You have to pare it down. You can write it blah-blah-blah and then just get it down to blah. And then consistency. Those are the three. Show up, be concise, be consistent. The most important thing is to show up. The second most important thing is to be concise, and the third most important thing is to be consistent. Debbi: And what are you actually writing right now? What are you working on? Because I know you’ve got plans for books in the future, but what book are you actually working on right now? Laurie: I’m actually writing Book Number Seven. I just wrote the first paragraph of the prologue for it. Sean Rafferty walks through the doors of Maine State Prison—I won’t tell you why—and how has that made him feel? What is he seeing? What is he smelling? What is that doing to his breathing? I won’t tell you why he’s there, but he’s there for a really darn good reason. And literally before I got on with you, I wrote that first paragraph and it took me a long time. You know, out of the gate, that first sentence better be extraordinary and that first paragraph better support it. And then I went and I said to my husband, Len, what do you think about this as an opener? He said, I would only change one word. Instead of thud, I would say clang. Other than that … Debbi: Very good. Well, it sounds like you have your work cut out for you in between Simon & Schuster-izing and just coming up with all of these plots. I really have to say well done. Way to go! Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up? Laurie: Just a reminder to the listeners that I’m doing a giveaway if they get on your blog site on the Crime Cafe, and they go to the little piece that I put out there where they get to read a chapter of Impervious. There’s 1, 2, 3 instructions. I can’t remember what they are, but if they go there, they’ll see 1, 2, 3 instructions to enter the giveaway, and then I will sign a copy, put a bookmark in it and mail it to them and it’s for US residents. Debbi: Well, that’s a deal and a half right there. Laurie: Right there. Debbi: Well, thank you so much for spending time with us today. Thank you. Laurie: Thank you for having me. I enjoyed talking with you. Debbi: It was great to see you again. Laurie: You too. Thank you. Debbi: Sure thing. If you enjoyed the episode everybody, please leave a review. And if you’re watching this on YouTube, please like the video. If you would like to enter the contest for that giveaway that Laurie just described for a copy of Impervious signed by the author. Just follow her instructions after you like the video. And check us out on Patreon also, where I have book reviews, excerpts from my work and bonus episodes that are just pure fun, basically. On that note, I’ll see you next time when our guest will be Ted Flanagan. Thanks for listening. Take care and happy reading. **** Laurie and I both remembered the names that eluded us. I posted the answers on Patreon. Check it out here! No charge. 🙂

This is ad-free bonus episode to finish up Season Eight. Just a quick update on my plans (or possible plans) for the podcast. Here’s a PDF copy of the episode. Hi everyone. Well, it’s taken me a while to put up this particular episode, which I hadn’t quite expected a lot of things to happen, unfortunately. For one thing, my computer crashed. That did not help at all in terms of getting things done on this podcast or on anything else. But in any case, I am in mostly recovered mode at this point and probably have lost quite a few photos as a result of this and maybe not. We’ll see. In any case, I just wanted to say that I’ve really enjoyed doing this show and I really would like to continue doing it.However, what I’d like to think about also is what else I can be doing that would be an interesting new direction. So I wish I came here with a master plan all worked out and ready to tell you about, but I don’t have one. Yeah, that’s the truth. I am simply considering options at this point, and among the options I’ve considered are putting together anthologies by authors who have appeared on the Crime Cafe, things like that, other than the one that I already offer, the ones I already offer. So that’s something to consider. And the other thing I’m thinking about is something in between that, like say periodically posting short stories from, or essays or guest posts from the authors, doing random interviews. I don’t know, it just depends on how things develop and what I feel I’m capable of doing at this point. So yeah, my capabilities are somewhat limited in that I have dystonia and it’s a movement disorder as, I don’t know if I’ve ever talked about it on the podcast, but I have it. And lately the treatment has not been working very well, so that makes life a little more difficult in general. But having said that, I just want to say that I really appreciate how much support the show seems to be getting in terms—I look at the statistics in terms of downloads, and they’ve been going up—and I get so many requests to be on the show, and I feel really honored by that. I truly do. And I also want to thank everybody who listens, everybody who watches the YouTube channel, the patrons on Patreon. Thank you. Yeah, that I was not expecting. Not expecting at all. Be seeing you. PS: I endeavor to provide more than just another podcast with your support.

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with the first female Bond novelist, Kim Sherwood. You’ll want to hear all about the latest developments in James Bond’s world. Even if he is missing! And, for anyone who wants to write, this interview is loaded with great insights from my guest. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so. Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting. I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice? If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog. Download a copy of the PDF transcript of this episode here. Debbi: Hi everyone. My guest today is the author of an award-winning debut novel Testament. She was shortlisted for the Sunday Times Young Writers of the Year Award. She is also the first female author of a Bond novel. It’s called Double or Nothing. Here’s the cover if you can see. I’m always doing that wrong. It’s called Double or Nothing, and if you like action packed stories, I think you’ll love this one. I’m thrilled to have with me today the first female Bond novelist, Kim Sherwood. Hey Kim, how are you doing today? Kim: Hi, I’m good, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Debbi: Well, it’s a pleasure having you on. Thank you so much and congratulations on making history. Kim: Well, that’s very kind. Thank you. Debbi: Well, I have to say—the first question that comes to mind is how does it feel to be in this position, to have a job this amazing? Kim: It feels pretty good. It feels pretty good. It’s very surreal. You know, sometimes it becomes almost normal because it’s kind of my day-to-day life now. And then on days like today we are recording on the 17th anniversary of Casino Royale so I’m down here in London for the celebrations. I’m at the Ian Fleming offices, which is why I’m surrounded by all of these beautiful Ian Fleming books, and to see my book next to his and with this legacy, it’s very, very special. It feels pretty good. It’s very surreal. You know, sometimes it becomes almost normal because it’s kind of my day-to-day life now. And then on days like today we are recording on the 17th anniversary of Casino Royale so I’m down here in London for the celebrations. Debbi: I can just imagine. Wow. And the other question I have is, how the heck did you manage to land a deal to write Bond novels from a feminist perspective, no less? Kim: That’s right. Well, really this comes down to saying very far-fetched things out loud repeatedly. So all of my life I’ve said to anybody who would listen, one day I want to write a James Bond novel, and I happened to say it to the right person, my agent who heard that the estate was looking for a new writer. They had liked my first book. They knew what a fan I was. They invited me to send them some ideas, and it all took off from there, and they were really excited about the kind of new directions that I wanted to take the world in, a chance to kind of expand the world of James Bond. So all of my life I’ve said to anybody who would listen, one day I want to write a James Bond novel, and I happened to say it to the right person, my agent who heard that the estate was looking for a new writer. Debbi: Yes, yes, it does. Definitely. This book definitely goes there. How much did you prepare to write these books in terms of research and any other preparation that you made? Kim: Well, in a way I’ve been preparing all of my life because I am, you know, an obsessive fan. So it was about going back to rereading the books, rewatching the films, and just thinking about the threads that Ian Fleming had set running that I could maybe pick up on again, while also bringing it into the modern day. And that’s where a lot of the research came in, because I was trying to honor Fleming’s vision while also make it feel fresh and contemporary in the 21st century. So I did a lot of research into climate science. The book features a climate catastrophe that the Double Os are trying to prevent. I did a lot of research into quantum computing, so really things at the very cutting edge of technology. I got to speak to scientists and doctors, which was just fascinating and I was so grateful to everybody who gave me their time. Well, in a way I’ve been preparing all of my life because I am, you know, an obsessive fan. So it was about going back to rereading the books, rewatching the films, and just thinking about the threads that Ian Fleming had set running that I could maybe pick up on again, while also bringing it into the modern day. Debbi: I’m always impressed when people do this level of research, do so much research that they could practically write books about the subject itself. Kim: Yeah. Well, for me, research is such an integral part of the writing process. It has been for all of my novels. The author Hilary Mantel, who’s a historical novelist, she said that a writer can hardly know what they need to know until they reach the scene, and she was talking there about historical research. But I think for me anyway, it’s true for everything I’ve written. You get to a scene and you think, well, hang on, I’ve made Q a quantum computer now, so I better go learn something about quantum computing. And for me, getting to talk to experts and pick their mind, that’s just such a joy. Debbi: It is, isn’t it? What sparked the idea for your first book in this trilogy? Kim: It was an interesting challenge because the Flemings wanted me to kind of expand the world of 007, bring in these new Double O characters, and then in a way, James Bond becomes a problem because he’s such an icon. If he’s standing there on the page or the stage, the spotlight is on him, and that’s where all eyes are going to turn. So how do you introduce a new character under those circumstances? You know, it’s kind of unfair to the new character, so I thought I have to kind of get rid of him in a way. I have to ask him just to step a little bit out of the spotlight and into the darkness. That was my idea to have him missing from the beginning, and to have a kind of new ensemble cast of Double O characters who are trying to find him. They don’t know if he’s been captured, possibly even killed, so they’re looking for him desperately while also trying to work out whether this tech billionaire who says he can solve the climate crisis through technology is quite so saintly as he seems. It was an interesting challenge because the Flemings wanted me to kind of expand the world of 007, bring in these new Double O characters, and then in a way, James Bond becomes a problem because he’s such an icon. If he’s standing there on the page or the stage, the spotlight is on him, and that’s where all eyes are going to turn. So how do you introduce a new character under those circumstances? Debbi: Yeah. I thought it was interesting the way the various characters, the different Double O’s would talk about James Bond and talk about their experiences with him, and there would be like a typical James Bond moment that they would insert in there. So it’s as if the specter of James Bond was in the book. Kim: Absolutely. He’s both absent and present really, because he’s there in flashbacks, he’s there in memories, and as you say, he is there in conversations. That was a way for me to almost transfer or hopefully transfer the reader’s empathy and love for Bond onto these new characters who love Bond just as much and have significant relationships with him. We have Moneypenny, who is now the head of the Double O section in what I felt was a very long overdue promotion, and she and Bond have kind of come up together through MI6, and she has a very kind of intimate friendship with him. We have Johanna Harwood, 003 who’s had a romantic relationship with him, 009—Sid Bashir, who has been mentored by him, and we get to see him from all these different perspectives, which for me is one of the things I love most about Fleming’s writing. He often looks at Bond from the outside, whether it’s from the enemy’s perspective in From Russia with Love, or from the leading lady’s perspective in The Spy Who Loved Me, and I really wanted to get into those moments. How do these people perceive Bond, because so much of Bond is how people look at him in the cinemas, how we look at him. We create him with our gaze. [O]ne of the things I love most about Fleming’s writing. He often looks at Bond from the outside, whether it’s from the enemy’s perspective in From Russia with Love, or from the leading lady’s perspective in The Spy Who Loved Me, and I really wanted to get into those moments. Debbi: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. How did you come up with all those different characters anyway, those different particular characters? I mean, I was particularly interested in Harwood and Dryden. Kim: Thank you. Thank you. Well, that was another really fun challenge of this. You’re going to have new Double Os. Who are they going to be? I started off looking at some of the kind of legacy and law around the Double O section and the idea of being a Double O, so I started off thinking about this idea of a license to kill, which sounds really fun and cool, but when you think about it, it is an enormous ethical responsibility that you are judge, jury and executioner in the field. I wanted to investigate that so I started to think about what is the opposite of a license to kill, and I felt like it was a doctor’s Hippocratic Oath to heal, and that was where Johanna Harwood, 003 came from. She starts life as a trauma surgeon, then something happens in her life that brings her to the attention of Moneypenny, and she’s recruited as a Double O. Similarly, Sid Bashir kind of came out of examining this idea of, what we see in a lot of Bond narratives is Bond killing one person to save the world. I was really intrigued by that notion and there’s a kind of utilitarian philosophy to that. I was really intrigued by this almost contrary notion in the Koran to save one soul is to save all of humanity, and I began to wonder what if you had a Double O from a religious background, a Muslim Double O who’s been raised to believe in that ethos but now has taken on this other oath. So with all of these questions, I was looking at the kind of existential crisis almost that sits at the heart of being a Double O. Similarly for 004, Joseph Dryden, I wanted to look at the route that people take to become spies. What are they carrying with them? And a really common route is soldiers who were in Special Forces, really highly trained, served multiple missions and then suffer an injury that means they can’t serve on the frontline anymore, and that often brings them to the attention of intelligence services. So that’s Dryden’s background and how he comes to join the Double O section. Debbi: Very interesting. How much of an adjustment was it to write for the Bond franchise as opposed to your own work? It is a really different creative process because the Fleming family are really involved. Every draft is read by multiple people, by the whole family as well as the publishers. And usually writing is a very solitary process. Kim: It is a really different creative process because the Fleming family are really involved. Every draft is read by multiple people, by the whole family as well as the publishers. And usually writing is a very solitary process. My first novel took me seven years to write. My next literary novel that has just come out here in the UK, A Wild & True Relation, that took me 14 years to write. Obviously, some of these things overlapped. I don’t just look deceptively young, but they took a long time, and a lot of it was just me sitting by myself in a room. This is very different. It’s a lot of collaboration and that takes some adjusting to, but for me, it’s been really helpful because it’s kind of opened up my creative process and allowed me to kind of … it’s almost like when you’re a kid and you play imaginary games. You get to say to your friends, well, let’s pretend. What if? What if James Bond was missing? What would happen then? This is very different. It’s a lot of collaboration and that takes some adjusting to, but for me, it’s been really helpful because it’s kind of opened up my creative process and allowed me to kind of … it’s almost like when you’re a kid and you play imaginary games. You get to say to your friends, well, let’s pretend. What if? What if James Bond was missing? What would happen then? Debbi: Yeah. It reminds me of the screenwriting process Kim: Right. Debbi: I’ve collaborated on screenplays before and it’s really a wonderful process. Kim: Yeah. Yeah. Debbi: It really does open you up creatively. Kim: Absolutely. I think that there is something about that. Kind of like a TV writer’s room maybe, everybody coming together with ideas and with passion. Debbi: Precisely. How far along are you in writing the trilogy? Have you written any of the second? How much of the story arc have you …? Kim: Yeah. I finished the second book now, and we’re up to designing covers and things, which is really fun, but I actually mapped out the trilogy before I started to write, and the first thing I wrote was the final scene of Book 3, so a little bit like a roadmap. I know where I’m heading. I might deviate here and there. We’ll see. We’ll see how it all develops, because I think the more you write a novel, the more the novel tells you what it wants to be and it’s the same with characters, but I know ultimately where my target is. I actually mapped out the trilogy before I started to write, and the first thing I wrote was the final scene of Book 3, so a little bit like a roadmap. I know where I’m heading. I might deviate here and there. We’ll see. Debbi: Awesome. So do you have any thoughts on the future in general of the Bond franchise in the books or the movies? Kim: Well, it’s a really interesting time for Bond. You know, as I said, it’s 70 years of literary Bond, 60 years of cinematic Bond last year. I think when you come up on these anniversaries, you do start to take stock, and it’s extraordinary when you think about it, that Ian Fleming created this iconic character that’s lived beyond him, lived beyond everybody who’s embodied him and really has a very particular place in popular culture and in the kind of zeitgeist and collective unconscious. I think where we go next with Bond will almost depend on what happens next in the world, because Bond remains evergreen because he is flexible and adaptable and he can reflect the world and he is what we need him to be. So I think whatever happens next with him, it will be what we need from him. I think where we go next with Bond will almost depend on what happens next in the world, because Bond remains evergreen because he is flexible and adaptable and he can reflect the world and he is what we need him to be. Debbi: That’s a great observation because I’ve just seen Bond change over the years with the political and gender roles, all of that changing, so Bond has had to adjust with the times. Kim: Absolutely! You see that all the way through the films, and people might have an idea of Bond as static because there’s certain elements of Bond that don’t change. There’s the kind of essential ingredients and they have to be there—martinis and fast cars and all those things. They have to be there, but there are other things about him that change a lot. When you compare, say Roger Moore’s Bond to Timothy Dalton’s Bond, Timothy Dalton’s Bond made the height of the AIDS crisis. Far fewer sex scenes, a really different attitude. You always have Bond kind of adapting with its times and reflecting us back to ourselves. Debbi: Absolutely. What authors have most inspired your writing? Kim: Well, Ian Fleming is certainly up there. I first read Fleming when I was about 12 and I wanted to try writing spy fiction, so I bought From Russia with Love in pound paperback, and I completely fell in love with his really visual, vivid style. I read all of those as a teenager, and then at the same time, I was seeking out other spy fiction as well because I was just falling in love with it. So Peter O’Donnell’s Modesty Blaise series was a big influence on me., and Modesty is often called like a female Bond, but she’s so much more than that. People, if you haven’t read Modesty Blaise, stop listening to me and just go and do it immediately because she’s just so effortlessly cool and brilliant. So that was a big influence on me. John le Carré, of course, big influence and I love his writing and I think he was a chronicler of the modern British state through spy fiction. I love what he does with the genre. And then also kind of more broadly in crime writers like Raymond Chandler, Elmore Leonard, Walter Mosley, writers with a really strong voice. I was reading and rereading them all through my teenage years and twenties. I think the whole thing is a kind of melting pot into Double or Nothing. Debbi: Yeah. Yeah. Isn’t it interesting the way mystery fiction and spy fiction seem to have a kind of combination there, a kind of link somewhere? Kim: Yeah, absolutely, because you have the quest narrative I think underpinning both. In both detective fiction and spy fiction, you have this structure where the kind of forces at battle are shrunken down to individuals, and whether it’s the detective or the spy representing the side of good, or if it’s going into noir, it might be more complex than that, but they have a mission. They go out on their quest, they pick up some allies along the way, some enemies along the way, and there’s a kind of final showdown and maybe they make it home or maybe they don’t. But I think there’s a chivalric narrative that underpins them both that goes back to medieval literature, goes back to ancient Greek myth. So although in some ways cozy crime and spy fiction might seem quite far apart, I think actually they’re very genetically related. In both detective fiction and spy fiction, you have this structure where the kind of forces at battle are shrunken down to individuals, and whether it’s the detective or the spy representing the side of good, or if it’s going into noir, it might be more complex than that, but they have a mission. Debbi: I think you’re right about that. I’ve been reading some short stories that are based on the character Miss Marple from the Agatha Christie series. Kim: Right. Debbi: And I was struck—it had been a long time since I’d read anything Christie-related —and I thought, wow, she was really some kind of character, this Miss Marple. I hadn’t fully appreciated. Kim: Absolutely. I actually had the pleasure of writing Double or Nothing at Agatha Christie’s house because they let writers go and stay there in the attic of her country house in Devon. So I wrote a big chunk of Bond there and it was very fun imagining James Bond and Poirot and Miss Marple and everybody hanging out and thinking what would they think about this? Debbi: That is so cool. That is definitely very cool. What advice would you give to anyone interested in a writing career? Kim: I think to have faith in yourself because it takes a huge amount of inner belief and stamina and morale to keep going in an industry that’s of course competitive in terms of—not like a sport, but there’s almost limited oxygen in the room for a certain number of books at any one time. There will be rejections and there will be setbacks, and there’ll be times where you have to be your best champion. I’m always saying that to students when they maybe have a bit of a wobbling confidence, I’m always saying to them, just go back to your original intention. Why were you passionate about this project? Why did you have a compulsion to write it? What is your inner drive? Go back to that and have faith in it because ultimately that’s what you need to sustain you. And then also related to that, sometimes you alone might not be enough, so get some good cheerleaders around you. I feel very grateful to my family who are always there to cheer me on. There will be rejections and there will be setbacks, and there’ll be times where you have to be your best champion. I’m always saying that to students when they maybe have a bit of a wobbling confidence, I’m always saying to them, just go back to your original intention. Why were you passionate about this project? Debbi: Amen to that. Anytime I get discouraged, I think I’m going to play this back and listen to your advice there. That’s wonderful advice. Do you have a favorite Bond film? Kim: Yes. My favorite Bond film is actually also my favorite book From Russia with Love. The film, it just has all the classic ingredients. It has the train, it has the gray suit, it has Connery’s walk, it has the great helicopter scene, and it has such good dialogue. I just love the kind of Hitchcock style to it. For me it’s kind of classic Bond distilled. And I also love, and you get this even more in the book, seeing Bond from that outside perspective, seeing him from SMERSH’s perspective as they try and plot his downfall. I love how Fleming … You know, it’s the fifth book and he’s created this myth of Britain, as he says, and then in this book From Russia with Love, he sets about testing that myth and seeing if he can break it. I love how playful and experimental he was with this kind of iconic character he created. Debbi: Hmm, interesting. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up? Kim: Well, I guess I just hope people enjoy the book. For me, it really is the honor of a lifetime to get to play in Ian Fleming’s sandbox. It’s honoring Fleming’s vision, but it’s also bringing it into the 21st century and creating characters from diverse backgrounds that hopefully open the door a little bit and allow more people to kind of see themselves as the hero. You know, for me as a kid playing James Bond, I used to play that I was Bond. I wouldn’t play I was a Bond girl and that’s no disrespect to Bond girls, but I wanted to be the hero. I hope that what I’ve done here in widening out this ensemble cast is that Bond is still Bond, but there’s also new heroes from different backgrounds and distinct perspectives that I hope people will enjoy and want to follow their adventures. Debbi: Wow. I did the very same thing when I used to watch television as a child. I would always identify with the male detective. Kim: Right. Well, they got to be the heroes. Debbi: I know. It was like, why would you want to be anything …? You know, why would you want to be the girl hanging on him? Yeah. Kim: Yeah. Very few people fantasize about playing the secondary role. Debbi: Great. Well, Kim, it is such a pleasure. It’s been such a pleasure talking to you. Thank you for being here. Kim: Thank you. Thank you for having me. This has been really lovely. Debbi: Thank you. And thank you to all my listeners. If you enjoyed the episode, please leave a review if you would, and consider becoming a patron of the podcast where you can get bonus episodes, samples of my fiction and other perks. Our next guest will be Heather Weidner. And until then, take care and happy reading. PS: Unfortunately, Heather Weidner had to cancel, but our next guest will be T.W Lawless. ***** For early access, bonuses, and more, become a patron!

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with three of the four crime writers who’ve published a novel under the name Lee Anne Post. Check out our discussion about their novel Thoughts & Prayers. First, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so. Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting. I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice? If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog. Download a copy of the PDF transcript of this episode here. Debbi: Hi everyone. My guest is a person of many parts as you can see. I have three-quarters of them with me today. Lee Anne Post is the pen name for co-authors Cathy Baldau, Tara Bell, Ginny Fite and K.P. Robbins. I have three of them with me here today—Cathy, Tara, and Ginny. So, welcome. Stories by these authors have appeared in numerous journals, and individually they’re published as well in 10 novels, I believe it is. They’ve worked as reporters and editors covering various types of topics, and they have written a highly relevant novel that entertains and raises important issues, Thoughts & Prayers. So it is my great pleasure to have with me today, [three of the] four authors who represent the one author Lee Anne Post, the collective author. Thanks guys for being here. This is great. All: Thanks for having us. Debbi: Oh my gosh. Well, I’m so glad to have you here. So tell me more about the book Thoughts & Prayers. What is it about? Ginny: Cathy, you go. Cathy: I always get this. The author’s scariest question is what is it about? Even though you’ve worked on it for five years. It’s basically about an outcast, overprotected girl who unwittingly lets her boyfriend into their school thinking that he’s just going to scare a few people, but he ends up bringing a gun and minutes later, 14 people are dead, and then it’s her trying to hide her complicity or she’s the accomplice. She’s trying to hide that from the authorities. And then as the town and the survivors’ grief turns to anger and revenge, she’s also trying to hide from them as well. Debbi: My goodness. Ginny: I think of this book as the Crime and Punishment novel of the 21st Century, and really it’s basically Ross Konikoff. That was his name, right? She struggles with this issue of how much her guilt will force her to give away, and whether she can conceal herself in plain sight or not, and whether she should help the authorities or not. It is both character driven and plot driven, which is fairly unusual for a crime novel. Debbi: You know it’s interesting that you bring up that point of complicity because I’m currently working on a story about my attorney character, where she’s trying to figure out if she’s crossing a similar line. Interesting. Real interesting. What really fascinates me is the fact that you were able to collaborate on this, four of you. How was it that you divided up the work and how was it that you met and formed this group exactly? Ginny: Tara, you want to give that a go? Tara: I’ll give that a go. We started out as a writing group to begin with, so we knew each other. We had been reading our work for maybe at least five years, I think the four of us. And one day we decided, one of us said, do you want to try writing a book together? Let’s try writing a book together. So at first we weren’t too sure whether this was a good idea, but we just started. We just began and with our computers in our laps and a whole other way of working, we plotted out a plot, decided that each of us would have two characters. We designed those characters. This was all done maybe in two weeks, I think. We laid this down, this basic story, and that each of us would have two characters and who they were, what their names were, and how they pretty much interrelated with each other. We wanted a community of diversity, and so I took two teens and Cathy has the protagonist Lily, the person that was the accomplice, and Ginny had two characters—a policeman that was involved in it and the father of one of my characters. Anyway, I’ll stop, but you get the idea. So at first we weren’t too sure whether this was a good idea, but we just started. We just began and with our computers in our laps and a whole other way of working, we plotted out a plot, decided that each of us would have two characters. We designed those characters. Ginny: I just want to say the reason Cathy’s character Lily became the protagonist is that she missed one of our weekly meetings. We decided while she was not there that Lily was definitely it. Debbi: Oh my gosh. Wow! This is so fascinating because each of you took a character and created an arc for them then. All: Yes. Tara: Yes. Two characters, two character themes. Ginny: Two characters, and we did that up front. You know, the weird thing about this is we really knew this book even before it existed, and so we knew the character’s names almost immediately. Tara: Yeah, we did Ginny: With very little movement about those. And then we knew what had to happen for each of them, and so we wrote little character exercises about each of their individual arcs and shared them with each other. Debbi: Wow! Ginny: Maybe as juice to get us started. Debbi: I have got to make an observation here. You said something in your guest post that really resonated with me. You said, “we had to learn how to go from being soloists to members of a chamber orchestra, to blend our understanding, writing styles, language use, pacing and approach to character and storytelling into one harmonious melody.” Right away, all I could think was that I was struck by the similarity with the filmmaking process and the screenwriting process. Honestly. Tara: Yeah. Debbi: And I thought, wow, this is like a TV writer’s room almost in a sense. Seriously. Ginny: In a way, yes. Debbi: I was just like, wow, this is fabulous. Fabulous stuff. I’m loving it. Was it difficult at all to adjust to writing collectively? Ginny: Cath? Cathy: I think the writing part was easier than the editing part, to be honest. I think the writing part was the fun part. You know, we were all just flying and reading every week. Every week we were reading what we were writing, and then when it came down to the editing process, that’s where things got tough because you had to sort of give up a part of your own work to these other three voices to make sure that all these characters, that everything made sense and matched. We did a big timeline. We couldn’t write that the character had blue eyes when the character really had green eyes. So there was a lot, and we got down to the micro level of editing too. Every word, basically every sentence was debated. As an author, you’re usually flying solo, so you don’t have to compromise as much. Well, you don’t have to compromise at all, except with your editor, I guess. But we really worked together to make it one voice between the four of us. As an author, you’re usually flying solo, so you don’t have to compromise as much. Well, you don’t have to compromise at all, except with your editor, I guess. But we really worked together to make it one voice between the four of us. Debbi: Oh my gosh. Wow! I mean, if any screenwriters are listening, I’m sure a lot of them are thinking, whoa! Well, this is kill your darlings. This is a kill your darlings thing. Ginny: Oh, definitely. So there were issues about backstory. How much do we put in and how much do we leave out? And many of us, like me, like our backstory, so letting go of that little comfort blanket, sometimes very difficult. Debbi: But it can also be very freeing. Ginny: Yes. That too. Tara: And we all got to know each other’s characters really well, too, as we kept working. So in a way, we had that ability to get to know them, even though we still had somewhat control over what we thought about it, and then we would discuss it and see if it went along with everyone. Discuss how we felt that character should feel or say or do, and so it really wasn’t … we didn’t have to give up a lot. Sometimes we would compromise or add to our ideas of that character, and it really, in a way was pretty wonderful. I learned a lot about putting a novel together by working with these wonderful writers. Sometimes we would compromise or add to our ideas of that character, and it really, in a way was pretty wonderful. I learned a lot about putting a novel together by working with these wonderful writers. Debbi: Collaborating does that, I think. You just learn so much from it. And I love the point you made in the post, your guest post about humor, how it really is appropriate to include humor in heavy material, just to give it some lightness so that people don’t get so depressed they want to put the book down. Ginny: The book has that effect from time to time because the subject is so difficult, but mostly it’s Cathy who’s the funny one, and these lines would just pop up out of nowhere and make us all laugh, which was so helpful as you pointed out. Just like, oh, now I can breathe again. Let’s go back and do this. Debbi: Absolutely. How much research did you do as part of this? Cathy: I like to say that we’re all on some government watch list based on our browsing histories into guns and pipe bombs and shootings. Go ahead, Ginny. Ginny: Trauma. A lot of research about trauma and the after effects about PTSD. And you know, I’ve long thought that life just gives you PTSD, but these specific assaults are so vivid for all of us that I don’t know that we ever as a society get over them, particularly, you know, if the newscaster when they’re reporting what is happening on say a day like January 6th, comments that the young staffers knew what to do when there was an active shooter threat and moved the members of Congress away from windows and doors. I mean, that kind of acceptance of violence in our society is there all of the time. And so we need to find a way to understand that and encapsulate some of that in the story. Trauma. A lot of research about trauma and the after effects about PTSD. And you know, I’ve long thought that life just gives you PTSD, but these specific assaults are so vivid for all of us that I don’t know that we ever as a society get over them … Debbi: Yes. Yes, absolutely. How have readers responded to your book? Tara: We were, I have to say, pleasantly surprised. You do not know when you finish a novel how it will be accepted. We went through beta readers. We heard from them and advised and re-edited after we got our manuscript back, but we didn’t know what just readers that would actually get the book would feel. So we were surprised to see on Netflix and—I mean not on Netflix—on NetGalley, a lot of wonderful responses from people. 5 stars we got fairly often and how many people relate to it. It’s just like what Ginny was saying, that there’s a lot of relation. [Phone bleeps. Tara silences it.] You can tell I’m really techy savvy. [laughter ] People really responded to it, and when we’ve had groups together, like library groups, book signing in our area, people asking, and the questions have been phenomenal and been really good. We’re not experts in the field. We are fiction writers, but we did the research and we worked, and it was interesting to feel the readers respond to our story and relate it to that story. One teacher said, I’m so glad, one thing I recognized in the book is that you didn’t blame anyone. You didn’t blame the schools, you didn’t blame the police, you didn’t blame gun laws. Well, some of the characters do. Some of them do, but it’s all about how each of us in a different way is responding to this really traumatic, awful thing that’s happening in our country. Debbi: Well, that’s great that you’ve written this book and that you did it all together. I’m a big believer in the power of collaboration on a lot of things. Are you working on anything else collectively? Ginny: Not yet. Debbi: Not yet. Ginny: It’s gonna take some convincing. Tara: We’ve talked about it. Cathy: You know, writing a book is like childbirth. You have to have that time to recover and forget about all the pain of it. Debbi: I know the feeling. Tara: Yes. Debbi: Who are your favorite authors and are you reading anything now that you particularly love? Tara: Ooh. Ginny: Well, my favorite all-time author is still Toni Morrison, no matter what else I read. But she doesn’t write crime unless life is a crime. Tara: I really love Anthony Doerr. What’s it called? Cloud… I can’t remember. Ginny: Cloud Cuckoo Land. Tara: Yes. I love him. If I could remember his titles, that would be nice. How about you, Cathy? Cathy: Well, I’ve been in the past few years reading voraciously Fredrik Backman, I think because he has that combination on one page. You can laugh and cry and scream and be happy and sad and all of those things that he does brilliantly that is life, you know, because in life, you have happy, sad, scared moments throughout your day. So he kind of inspired my wanting to put all of those emotions on the page in such a difficult situation. Tara: Yes. Debbi: This is one of the things I like most about doing these interviews. I get to hear what other authors are reading, and sometimes it’s an author that I’ve never even heard of and I’ll get interested and start reading them. So thank you for those thoughts. Tara: Yes. Debbi: Let’s see. What advice would you give to someone who would like to write for a living? Tara: For a living. Would like to write and for a living is like an oxymoron. Debbi: I hear that. Tara: Go ahead, Ginny. Ginny: I’ve been working on this idea for a presentation elsewhere, and I think my advice is always what it had been, which is keep going. There are just innumerable insults and pauses and life events that come at you that prevent you from writing, but you just have to keep going. I mean, you don’t stop breathing because it’s difficult. You keep breathing, therefore you keep writing. I don’t think there’s any simpler advice than that. Tara: I think it’s good. I’ve watched Ginny out of the group or all of us. Cathy has a full-time job and three of us are retired from other work that we did and have maybe more time to write. Ginny has just gotten into some wonderful writerly habits that I admire so much. I think perseverance is a big advice. And don’t feel guilty. Try not to feel guilty about not getting your writing done. Just do it. Like Ginny said, that’s the best thing you can do. Just do it. And then be in touch with … Do things like this. Be in touch with … keep up with how you market, keep up with people to connect with. What do you think, Cathy? And the disappointment. It’s hard. You know, you think you’re close to something and then it doesn’t pan out, but go ahead, Cathy. Cathy: Well, I think it’s like any other sort of art or becoming a master at something. You have to put in the hours. It takes 10,000 hours to become a master at anything. My daughter danced ballet for a very long time, and so a lot of my years of writing, I call that barre work. You have to be in the studio and doing that writing and building up your writing muscles before you can go out on stage with your finished product. It takes hours and hours and hours. If you’re not willing to put in the work and if you don’t find joy in the work, that’s the thing. I think it’s like any other sort of art or becoming a master at something. You have to put in the hours. It takes 10,000 hours to become a master at anything. … It takes hours and hours and hours. If you’re not willing to put in the work and if you don’t find joy in the work, that’s the thing. Tara: That’s hard. Cathy: That’s hard, because I’ve collaborated on other projects with people that don’t have the writing “disease”, and it makes a big difference. You have to want to go through this agony of sitting down and writing every day. Tara: Pain. Ginny: Although I’ve been thinking that writing is the cure for this disease. The disease is something else. Find another name for it. But I think that writing is the way you get through it. So if the disease is say obsession, then writing allows you to work out the thing you’re obsessing about. Like clams or oysters, the “thing” is a piece of sand in your mind and this is going to keep grinding around in there until you push it out. Debbi: You guys have just described it all so perfectly, there are no words I can add. I mean, that is such great advice right there and it is so true. A lot of this is obsession, habit, determination. Tara: Procrastination. Debbi: Procrastination. Exactly. Sometimes you have to procrastinate well, if you know what I mean. You have to just kind of let that idea sit there and let the solution of whatever problem it is come to you. Interesting, isn’t it ? Tara: It is. Ginny: I can’t remember which philosopher talked about the raw and the cooked. He was talking about civilizations, but I think that somehow creating anything is like that. You can’t surface the idea until it’s cooked. Before then, it rattles around in your brain going through whatever process that you use to cook it and you are not really in charge of that process. It is going to happen without you and you just do have to wait until it’s ready. Debbi: That’s great. That’s very interesting. Tara: And another thing I’d advise for writers too, and probably they do this, is to be in a group, because it inspires you or you get to share your woes with people. Debbi: You get woes. You get comments. You get real comments, not just nasty comments from people on Amazon or whatever. Tara: Exactly. Debbi: Real, genuine, caring comments. Tara: Because we know what it’s like to get to that point or that page where we can share. Cathy: I think we’ve all said we could not have written this book alone. It would have never happened if one of us tried to write it alone. I think it was the four of us coming together and inspiring each other to be better writers and having that knowing that somebody’s going to expect you to have your work done the next week and have your pages ready to be read aloud. You know, having some accountability also helps in the writing process. I think we’ve all said we could not have written this book alone. It would have never happened if one of us tried to write it alone. Debbi: Absolutely. Absolutely. This is so beautiful, a beautiful note to end on, but I do want to ask, is there anything else you’d like to say before we finish up? Ginny: We missed having Karen’s brain here. Tara: Yeah, we did. Ginny: I mean, each of us adds a particular flavor to this particular stew, and I think she is as much a part of what we’re saying as anything we could say. Tara: Now this is the first time we haven’t had her here with us when we are doing an event or something like this. Debbi: I understand she’s off somewhere doing another thing. Ginny: Yes. Death Valley. Debbi: Death Valley! Ginny: Her husband is a photographer and she goes with him on these shooting trips. Debbi: That’s fascinating. That must be awesome. Tara: It is neat. Debbi: Well, I want to thank you so much for being here today and sharing your thoughts with my audience there. I really appreciate it. Tara: Thank you. Cathy: Yes, thanks for having us. Debbi: I think what you’ve done is great, just fantastic. So thank you very much. Tara: You’re welcome. We could keep talking for hours, so it’s good to end. Debbi: Probably. Tara: Thank you, Debbi Debbi: Sure thing. And I will just say thanks to everyone who’s listening. Don’t forget their giveaway. They are giving away a copy of Thoughts & Prayers and you can check my blog for the details on that—debbimack.com\blog, something like that. My thanks to my supporters on Patreon. I couldn’t do this without you guys, without Patreon and Substack. Our next guest will be Lorie Lewis Ham, who is not only a crime writer but has her own podcast called I believe it’s Mysteryrat’s Maze, where authors get to, I think, read their work so that’s fascinating right there. In any case, thank you for listening. Take care. I’ll see you in a couple of weeks and until then, happy reading. ***** Help support the podcast here!

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Willa C. Richards. We talk about her debut novel The Comfort of Monsters, Milwaukee, and more! Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so. Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting. I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice? If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog. Download a copy of the PDF transcript of this episode here. Debbi: Hi everyone. My guest today is a graduate of the Iowa Writers’ Workshop, where she was a Truman Capote Fellow. Her work has appeared in The Paris Review, The Kenyon Review, and other publications. She’s also the recipient of a 2019 PEN/Robert J. Dau Prize for Emerging Writers, and her novel is called The Comfort of Monsters, and it’s very good. I’ve read it and reviewed it and loved it. It’s my pleasure to have with me Willa C. Richards. Hey Willa, how are you doing today? Willa: Good. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity to be on. Debbi: Excellent. Well, I’m glad you’re here. I appreciate the opportunity to be able to talk to you, because I really did love your book. I thought it was great, and it touches on so many issues. I was listening to an old review I did of the book, trying to get back in touch with the issues that really stuck out for me. And it was like, wow! I’d forgotten just how complex and wonderful this book was. Willa: Well, thank you for saying that. Debbi: Oh, well, I mean it honestly. I wouldn’t say it if I didn’t mean it. So, tell us about the book and what inspired you to write it. Willa: Yeah, I started working on the book because of a project I was actually working on with my mother. My mom is a historic archeologist. Both my parents are archeologists, but my mother in particular is a historic archeologist. She works in mostly in cemeteries, and her sort of life’s project is working in a cemetery in Milwaukee, a pauper cemetery that was run by the city and then sort of forgotten and then ran into all of these sort of issues with construction and new development where they had sort of forgotten that these people were buried there. So my mom was tasked with excavating these graves and removing them from an area where they were in danger of being destroyed, so that’s sort of her life’s project. She got a call from a family—I believe this was in 2018—asking if she would excavate an area of the cemetery for them because they believed that their loved one was buried there, a recent burial, not a historic burial. And the reason that they believed this was based on a tip from a psychic. She did agree to work with them to excavate the area where they believed this woman—it was a young woman who had gone missing in the ‘80s—she agreed to work with this family and I volunteered on that project as well, and that was sort of the seed that really started the entire novel for me, just thinking about the space that that family was in, that they had been in and the work that they potentially did with a psychic to come to that place in the Milwaukee Poor Farm cemetery to try to find her. Debbi: Wow. So much of that is reflected in your book and it’s fascinating that your mother had that particular profession, and that you got involved through your mother’s profession. Willa: My whole family was really around my parents’ work from a very young age. We grew up on archeological sites, so we were sort of always involved in their work in a very intimate way, I guess you would say. And then as we got older, some of us did field schools and we started learning how to do archeology as well, so we would work for them during the summers. As a writer, it was an amazing experience. All of the different projects I worked on were just amazing experiences, and I’ve written a lot about archeology. I have a couple other short stories that also feature archeologists as the protagonists. My whole family was really around my parents’ work from a very young age. We grew up on archeological sites, so we were sort of always involved in their work in a very intimate way, I guess you would say. … As a writer, it was an amazing experience. Debbi: Fascinating. Let’s see. Your story is set in Milwaukee in three different time periods, correct, as I recall? Willa: Mostly two. Yeah. Debbi: Mostly two. And there’s a focus on the Dahmer summer and the… Willa: Correct. Debbi: So what were your reasons for choosing that location and those times? Willa: I’m from Milwaukee. My whole family is from there. I have a pretty loving relationship with the city, and it’s a city that I don’t often see reflected in contemporary literature or anywhere else, even pop culture. There’s a few things that showcase Wisconsin, but it’s usually like North Woods stuff. So yeah, I knew I wanted to set my first book in Milwaukee since it was my hometown. The way that the Dahmer material entered the book was because I was really thinking a lot about cold cases and why some cases become so intractably unsolved. I was thinking about the different reasons for these, and one of the things that occurred to me was that you have resources, law enforcement resources, and sometimes “smaller” cases get subsumed by these larger ones. And when I was thinking about the history of Milwaukee, one of the biggest cases in the city’s history was the Dahmer crimes, and this sort of completely subsumed law enforcement, media, political people, everyone. So I thought it would be really interesting to try to juxtapose a made-up crime with this very real crime and sort of see what kinds of sparks and connections sort of happened in that space. I’m from Milwaukee. My whole family is from there. I have a pretty loving relationship with the city, and it’s a city that I don’t often see reflected in contemporary literature or anywhere else, even pop culture. Debbi: You do that very effectively. When you were writing each story time period, did you write them separately and then put them together, or did you write each part sequentially and keep track of it on separate … whatever? Willa: Whatever. It was a little bit of whatever. Yes, it was definitely a little bit of whatever. I did start by writing them separately, chronologically, so I did all of the early sections first. I started in ’91 and just wrote that section through, and then I wrote the second part—the 2019 section—chronologically from beginning to end. The original shape of the book actually was a Part One, Part Two where those sections came one right after the other. I submitted that version to my agent and she just really wasn’t sold on the structure, so we talked about different ways of creating more tension, especially in that 2019 section. It was her idea actually to try to weave the two together, which I was initially incredibly disappointed, and the task seemed very daunting to weave those two together. I mean, you’re a writer. As you know, once you’ve written, there’s so many small details that you then need to think about like have I introduced this person yet? What is the first detail? But once I sat down and did it, I realized that it was really strengthening both sections to match them up like that. And then from there, I sort of added in things that needed to be added in, and that’s kind of where the whatever part came in. I did start by writing them separately, chronologically, so I did all of the early sections first. I started in ’91 and just wrote that section through, and then I wrote the second part—the 2019 section—chronologically from beginning to end. Debbi: Well, you do. It’s really a fabulous job I thought, putting that all together. How much research did you do for the book and what was the process like? Willa: I did a lot of research. I did a lot of very early research, and then I did a lot of research that was a little bit more targeted and specific to what I needed in the moment when I was writing. But the first part was definitely just kind of deep dive into the basics of the Dahmer case, and I really wanted to know beyond just sort of the pop culture narrative. We all have kind of the ideas of what’s portrayed in various movies, journalism especially. But I was interested just to hear what the nuts and bolts of the case was, especially because I was one [year old] at the time, so I didn’t really have any experience of it. So I went about that in two ways. I did go back to a lot of the journalism, both mainstream journalism, but then also some of the counterculture newspapers at the time. So mostly the gay newspapers that were reporting on it. And then I also just talked to a lot of family and friends and was like, okay, so what was your experience with this? And that part was really fun because in Milwaukee, even in Wisconsin in general, it feels like everyone has that one connection or one specific memory that they have about the Dahmer case, and that was really helpful. I think it added a lot of texture and specificity to the book to get those details from people that were there when it happened. I did a lot of very early research, and then I did a lot of research that was a little bit more targeted and specific to what I needed in the moment when I was writing. But the first part was definitely just kind of deep dive into the basics of the Dahmer case, and I really wanted to know beyond just sort of the pop culture narrative. Debbi: Yeah, absolutely. It definitely lends it authenticity and makes you feel like you’re part of that community for a moment in Milwaukee, and that’s good. So, what was it like attending the Iowa Writers’ Workshop, and what was the biggest benefit that you got from it? Willa: I mean, it’s definitely hard to say. Well first of all, what was it like? It was amazing. It was the best three years of my life, honestly. I had unlimited time. We had one class a week. You would just wake up and write and then at night, talk to other writers. So yeah, it was really amazing. I went there right out of undergrad, which was a little challenging I think because I hadn’t really stabilized into my voice, my style, even what I was interested in, so I felt a little bit untethered and there were a lot of people there that were already published and had their books already, so it was intimidating, but it was also really inspiring and it made me really see, okay, you can do this, because I had all these examples of other young people that were doing it. I think for me, the biggest benefits were the lifelong readers and friends that I made, and people that I can still send my work to and that are also active writers in this time and space. On the Iowa Writers’ Workshop: “It was amazing. It was the best three years of my life, honestly. I had unlimited time. We had one class a week. You would just wake up and write and then at night, talk to other writers. So yeah, it was really amazing.” I also found my agent there, so that was huge. They fly in agents and editors pretty frequently. I met with almost all of them, and she was the only one that really bit on this particular project, and so we stayed in touch and we just kind of worked on it. She would check in. She’d be like, how’s it going? And I’d be like, well, I’m in my PhD, so it’s not going great, but we stayed in touch and then she basically helped me place a couple stories and then we went out with the book together. Debbi: Wow. It sounds like it was an invaluable experience. Willa: Yes, absolutely. I wouldn’t have traded it for the world. I mean, I know a lot of other people … there’s a lot of trash talking of Iowa especially because it comes to the pretentiousness and you have the whole sort of MFA versus New York thing, and all of these arguments about whether or not it’s worth it. For me, it was absolutely worth it. There’s competitiveness everywhere. That is part of the Iowa spirit. I won’t deny it, but I never felt like it was a burden to my writing or it inhibited me in any way. Debbi: That’s good. That’s great. What drew you to crime fiction, number one, and do you think it is looked down on still in those quarters? Willa: I mean, it’s interesting. I guess I didn’t set out to write a crime book, which is kind of a weird thing to say, given what it became, but as I dug into the Dahmer stuff, and I think I started just spending more time in that true crime space, and also learning about it as a genre. I don’t know. It’s hard because I think I did a lot of that after I left Iowa, so I didn’t really have the voices of that true crime genre-y stuff. You shouldn’t be doing it; you should be. I worked on the book a lot after I had left and for the most part, the people I sent it to, my Iowa friends, were just like yes, you have got a book. Keep going. So I don’t think it was looked down upon while I was writing. I don’t know. How do you feel about sort of the general perception of crime fiction right now, or even of the true crime genre? I guess I didn’t set out to write a crime book, which is kind of a weird thing to say, given what it became, but as I dug into the Dahmer stuff, and I think I started just spending more time in that true crime space, and also learning about it as a genre. Debbi: I think it’s being taken more seriously than it was in the past. I think there’s definitely more of a trend toward crime writers trying to write up to a level, a certain level of complexity or I guess—what’s the word—sophistication. Willa: Yeah. Yeah. Debbi: And that’s good, I think. I think it’s good to freshen up the genre, to just try different things, to do things that are unusual and maybe a little bit more literary. Willa: Right, right, right. Debbi: To me, that’s all to the good. I mean, anything that makes a story readable and something you want to get into is good in my opinion. Willa: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think that’s what drew me. To return to the original question, I think that’s what drew me. The aspects of the genre I most enjoyed was just the readability, that page-turner quality. Those were my earliest reading experiences that I found so pleasurable, where you’re drawn into the story and you stay up really late and you can’t put the book down. I think I wanted, in the early stages of the book, I did want to replicate those aspects of the genre because they’re just so pleasurable. I mean, that’s the best reading experience you can have. So yeah, I definitely agree with you. The aspects of the genre I most enjoyed was just the readability, that page-turner quality. … I think I wanted, in the early stages of the book, I did want to replicate those aspects of the genre because they’re just so pleasurable. Debbi: Yeah, for sure. Thanks. Who are your favorite authors and what writing inspires you most? Willa: A lot of the people I worked with at Iowa are really inspired by Marilynne Robinson. She was a teacher of mine while I was there, and I thought her work was just so much about honoring individual consciousness and just recognizing that every human being is so complicated and has these multitudes of motivations. I think that really, really improved me as a writer to begin to think about every person like there’s not just one reason behind every action. There’s a whole complicated, messy mind behind all of these different actions. And I think if you can try to imbue that. A lot of the people I worked with at Iowa are really inspired by Marilynne Robinson. She was a teacher of mine while I was there, and I thought her work was just so much about honoring individual consciousness and just recognizing that every human being is so complicated and has these multitudes of motivations. I mean, her rule was sort of have seven reasons for a character to do any one thing, which is really hard. Not realistic unless you’re Marilynne Robinson. But I think the point stands that if you’re considering that and working in that space, I think you’re going to make really complicated, interesting, compelling fiction. So yeah, I really love Housekeeping. It’s probably my favorite. I also really love Joy Williams. I love her short fiction. I think she’s just so irreverent on the page and I love that. I think I’m drawn to her work too because she has a lot of protagonists that people are like, why are they so sad and depressing, and I feel like a lot of people said that about my narrator too, but they’re just so inscrutable. They’re always doing these things. I don’t understand them, so I definitely am really drawn to her work. I find myself definitely … especially leaving Iowa where I was just reading very widely, but I find myself reading mostly women these days. I don’t even mean to, but it just feels like that’s what I end up doing. I just finished Claire Keegan’s little novella Foster and was just blown away by that. So I don’t know. I read a lot of women, I would say, with messy female protagonists. Debbi: I love messy female protagonists. Willa: Yes, me too. Debbi: In any kind of setting, I love them. What advice would you give to someone who would like to write for a living? Willa: Ooh, it’s a tough one. I think it helps to have—I know this is sort of counter—but I think it helps to have something else in your life. It doesn’t have to be a traditional day job type of thing, but I think to have something else in your life, even as a hobby that gets you outside of the writing sphere and outside of your head is so helpful. Honestly when I was—it sounds counterintuitive—but when I was working serving jobs and in wine shops and stuff, I felt like that was when I was most creative, because I was really physically active during the day and then at night and any other time I had, I felt like my mind was just ready to go. I think it helps to have something else in your life. It doesn’t have to be a traditional day job type of thing, but I think to have something else in your life, even as a hobby that gets you outside of the writing sphere and outside of your head is so helpful. Sometimes in grad school and stuff, you feel like your mind is always on the thing, and so then when you sit down to write, it just doesn’t flow as much as I think it does when you are sort of unconsciously working out problems in another area of your life. So I feel like that’s my biggest advice would just be to have some … for some people, it’s physical activity like running or walking. These things that you can be moving and maybe working out problems in your head without just sitting there and looking at the screen or staring out the window, which is fine to do too. I’ve done plenty of those things too. What’s yours? I’m curious. Debbi: Oh, walking is definitely a favorite of mine. Oh yeah, definitely. I get lots of ideas for plot twists or just ideas in general just walking or flipping through the paper. I get the Sunday paper, so I’m one of the few remaining people who gets it. Willa: Yes. I think you are. Debbi: Yes, I’m an old-fashioned weirdo. I don’t mind being an old fashioned weirdo. I was going to ask what are you working on now? Willa: Well, I’ve been in the throes of first-time, full-time moming, so it’s been a big transition figuring out how to write after that. I was thinking I would be like, oh, I’ll finish a project once he’s six months and it kind of just keeps getting pushed back. I have three different projects that I’m just dipping my toes into and sort of exploring. Still in the very exploratory stages. One is a historical fiction, which is also set in Wisconsin, but it’s further north, and then I have another one that’s also in the true crime, sort of true crime podcast-y, documentary space. It’s a book, but it’s about that genre, and then the third one is a very autobiographical piece about a specific time in my life. So, those are the three that I’m sort of throwing things at the wall and seeing which one is going to be the winner for the next project. Debbi: Wow. Well, very cool. Glad to hear you’re working on some interesting stuff there. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up? Willa: I don’t think so. I guess I would just like to say I really appreciate you reading the book and taking the time to think about it so closely and carefully. The most rewarding part about putting the book out is always hearing from people that enjoyed it, which I guess is obvious, but worth saying. Debbi: Yeah. That feeling is just undeniable when somebody says I really loved your book. It’s just such a wonderful feeling. Truly. Willa: Absolutely. Debbi: Well, I want to thank you for being here today with us. Thank you so much. Willa: Yeah, of course. It was lovely. Debbi: It was great to meet you. And to everybody out there listening, remember to leave a review if you enjoyed the episode, and you can get bonus episodes and ad-free content and more if you become a Patreon supporter. So check out our Patreon page. Coming up in two weeks, we’ll have Saralyn Richard as my guest. In the meantime, take care and happy reading. ***** Support the podcast here!

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Lynn Slaughter. Check out our discussion about her crime writing and her young adult fiction. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so. Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting. I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice? If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog. You can download a copy of the transcript here. Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest today had a long career as a professional dancer and dance educator before becoming a fiction writer. The recipient of many writing awards, her latest book is a young adult crime novel called DEADLY SETUP, and her first mystery for adults, MISSED CUE, will be released this summer. It’s my pleasure to introduce my guest, Lynn Slaughter. Hi Lynn. Thanks for being here with us. Lynn (01:26): Hi, Debbi. Great to be with you. Debbi (01:29): I’m so glad you’re here, and I’m so glad we were able to connect. Lynn (01:33): Yes, that had a set of challenges. Debbi (01:37): Yes. Love your Christmas lights in the background. Lynn (01:41): Oh, well, thank you. Debbi (01:43): Yeah, they’re so pretty, so nice. Let’s see. I noticed on your website that you mentioned that you particularly enjoyed teaching teenagers to dance. I sense a kind of natural affinity perhaps for teenagers, and was this what led you to write to young adult and coming of age books? Lynn (02:05): Excellent question. Definitely. I think that fed right into it, Debbi. Teenagers have always been my favorite age group to work with. I taught at a performing arts high school, and I also spent seven summers as the counselor at a residential program for teens who are gifted in the arts. So that was a pretty major experience for me. And in addition to that, I just always loved young adult literature. I read books that were young adult books way into adulthood, and have always loved that literature. So probably a combination of all those things. Teenagers have always been my favorite age group to work with. I taught at a performing arts high school, and I also spent seven summers as the counselor at a residential program for teens who are gifted in the arts. Debbi (02:50): Yeah, same here. I think that young adult literature appeals to people of all ages, frankly. Lynn (02:58): Yes. You know, it’s interesting because research has shown that over half the people who are buying young adult books are actually adults, and of those close to 80% are actually buying them for themselves. So this morning I got a call from someone who I hadn’t heard from in years and years who said, oh, I just love this book of yours that I just read. Well, she’s 85, so I was reminded again that, yes, young adult is not just for young adults, so. You know, it’s interesting because research has shown that over half the people who are buying young adult books are actually adults, and of those close to 80% are actually buying them for themselves. Debbi (03:39): Absolutely, yes. So tell us about DEADLY SETUP. What inspired you to write this story? Lynn (03:47): Well first off, the story is about a young woman who is a daughter of a New England heiress, and her life really implodes when she gets accused and goes on trial for the murder of her mother’s fiance. She is very sure that someone has set her up for this, but she doesn’t know who. And of course, she’s determined to prove her innocence and uncover the identity of the real culprit. But the story isn’t just about that, like all mysteries, it’s about more than that. And this character is having a lot of challenges in her life. She has a very difficult mother-daughter relationship. Her mom is really not there for her emotionally or in terms of acceptance and support and even just basic interest. And that’s very hard on her, and she is missing, I think, having a sense of family. So what inspired that was actually growing up in a very wealthy community in Connecticut, Greenwich, Connecticut. I lived there between sixth grade and 12th grade. And whereas my family lived in a pretty modest apartment in the downtown area, I hung out with all of these kids who lived in mansions and had every possible material advantage. But many of them actually had parents who were more or less missing an action. Their parents were involved in a lot of stuff other than parenting their children. And looking back, I didn’t know what it was called at the time, but looking back, they were emotionally neglected. [S]he’s determined to prove her innocence and uncover the identity of the real culprit. But the story isn’t just about that, like all mysteries, it’s about more than that. And this character is having a lot of challenges in her life. (06:00): So I think to some extent, that inspired this. The other thing that inspired the premise of this novel was that many, many years ago, an actress named Lana Turner had a daughter named Cheryl Crane, who was accused of shooting her mother’s boyfriend. And this was splashed all over the movie magazines and the tablets. This, of course, was way before the internet. And that story stuck with me and I’m sure was in the back of my mind of, oh my goodness that would be something for a family to go through. So those are a couple of the things that inspired DEADLY SETUP. Debbi (06:47): That’s really interesting. What struck me when I started reading your book was how much a parent, their lifestyle choices can affect a child, sometimes to devastating effect. Lynn (07:02): Yes, yes. I think that that’s true. I really do. Debbi (07:06): Mmm. Lynn (07:07): One of the things about DEADLY SETUP is that this character falls in love for the first time, and her boyfriend actually has a very supportive family. So she keeps going over to his house, and she becomes terribly aware of the lack of genuine family at her house in part because she’s seeing what a supportive family looks like. Debbi (07:42): Yeah. Yes, indeed. What do you think are some of the key differences between writing for young adult for that category and writing adult? Lynn (07:55): Oh, holy guacamole. That is such a hard question. You know that Michael Cart, who is an expert on young adult literature, wrote a book about it, and he says that defining young adult fiction is about as easy as nailing jello to a wall, (08:15): How he describes it. So I think it’s very difficult. I do think that young adult literature has a very common theme of coming of age, that the character during the story is literally growing up and is trying to deal with some of these really big issues that you go through during adolescence of defining, gee, who do I think I am? Who do I wanna be? Where do I wanna go? How am I the same? And how am I different from my parents or my peers? So it’s a very intense, intense period of life, and it has a lot of angst in it. It has a lot of joy, a lot of humor, but also a lot of angst. Young adult literature is written from the point of view of a teenage protagonist. So if you’re going to write young adult, it’s very important to try to get it into the headset and the mind and the feelings of a teenager. If you are writing from the perspective of an adult looking back at your youth, then you’re writing adult fiction. So that’s one of the differences. I do think that young adult literature has a very common theme of coming of age, that the character during the story is literally growing up and is trying to deal with some of these really big issues that you go through during adolescence of defining, gee, who do I think I am? Who do I wanna be? Where do I wanna go? (09:43): But this spring, for example, I have an adult mystery coming out, and those issues are just different because the protagonist is at a developmentally much different stage of life. She’s already in a career, she’s in a relationship. She’s trying, of course, to sort out her life and next steps, but it’s very different than being a teenager. So that’s some of the differences. But in terms of subject matter, I think used to be that people would say, oh, when you’re writing for young people, this subject or that subject would be off the table. That’s no longer true. Our young people are exposed to everything, especially with the internet and [crosstalk]. So isn’t a lot of difference in that way. And I just think too, that there’s a lot of crossover. And sometimes I honestly think it’s a marketing decision in terms of, oh, is this going to be a young adult book? Or is this going to be a new adult book or an adult book? So it’s hard to define. Debbi (11:13): Yes, yes, I agree. So what was it that prompted you to write MISSED CUE? Your first adult mystery? Lynn (11:27): That’s a great question. It started out as a short story. It was a challenge from a friend of mine who said, oh, Malice Domestic is doing this anthology called Murder Most Theatrical, and let’s make a little critique group with our other friend, and we’re going to work on short stories that have a theater background. And so I tried to explain, I wasn’t a short story writer, but I thought, oh, well, what the heck? So I decided to do it, and I came up with this premise that this ballerina dies on stage. In the third act of Romeo and Juliet, she fails to awaken. And that was the premise. So then there’s a homicide detective and the homicide detective is trying to figure out first off, how she died, because the autopsy doesn’t show any apparent cause of death. And second, she’s trying to figure out who offed her because she recognizes there are all these people close to the ballerina who had a reason to wanna harm her. But after I finished writing the short story, I didn’t feel I was done because I didn’t really get a chance to explore the personal life or private life of this character, really develop this character in depth. And this particular homicide detective is very good at her job and is a complete and total mess in her private life. So I worked on the novel. (12:42): So she has this very difficult case. But after I finished writing the short story, I didn’t feel I was done because I didn’t really get a chance to explore the personal life or private life of this character, really develop this character in depth. And this particular homicide detective is very good at her job and is a complete and total mess in her private life. So I worked on the novel, and of course, in the course of working on the novel, the murderer turned out to be somebody entirely different than the short story, which is fine, but that’s how it came about. It was almost an accident that I wrote a book for adults, but there you go, Debbi (13:33): <laugh>. Funny because it was almost an accident that I wrote a book for young adults and actually middle graders, Lynn (13:42): <laugh> Debbi (13:43): Technically, If you’re going to talk about marketing aspects of it Lynn (13:49): Right. Right. Yes. It’s true. It’s true. Debbi (13:53): Let’s see. Are there books or authors that have inspired your writing, and what are you reading now that you particularly like? Lynn (14:03): Oh my goodness, so many people have inspired me. In the young adult area, I love so many people, Chris Crutcher, Sarah Dustin, Gayle Foreman, Judy Blume, Richard Peck. I could go on and on. Angie Thomas I could go on and on. So all of those people inspire me, and I still love reading literature, adult literature, young adult, middle grade. I just finished reading a middle grade book by Kyle Lukoff called TOO BRIGHT TO SEE, and it’s a wonderful book. It’s all about a young girl who realizes that she’s transgender and what this will mean for her life, but it’s just beautifully written. So people like that who are dealing with major character, major issues inspire me. But I also love humor. And M. C. Beaton has a wonderful mystery series, the late M. C. Beaton. Amish McBeth Mysteries. I love Amish McBeth. He’s this just hysterical policeman, a Scottish policeman, and I just love his voice and I love the humor. So my tastes are very eclectic. That’s all I can say, Debbi (15:43): <laugh>. Very cool. What do you find is the most effective way to reach your readership? Lynn (15:52): Oh, I I wish I knew. <laugh> (15:59): I’m probably the world’s worst social media person on the planet. But I do try to take advantage of any opportunities I have to do public speaking or meet people, or especially young people, writing conferences. I’ll often give talks. This past year, for instance, I was at a book festival called the Heartland Book Festival, and I did some workshops with teens called Cooking Up a Mystery. And it was really fun to get their ideas and talk with them about what are some of the basic ingredients of a mystery and have them have a chance to invent their own stories. So. This past year, for instance, I was at a book festival called the Heartland Book Festival, and I did some workshops with teens called Cooking Up a Mystery. And it was really fun to get their ideas and talk with them about what are some of the basic ingredients of a mystery and have them have a chance to invent their own stories. Debbi (16:56): That’s great. I think doing those talks and actually meeting people is an excellent idea. Lynn (17:04): Yes. Debbi (17:06): Let’s see. What advice would you give to anyone who’s interested in writing for a living? Lynn (17:15): Oh my goodness. Well I don’t think you should initially quit your day job. Debbi (17:22): Amen to that. Lynn (17:24): <laugh>For sure, or expect or go into it expecting to become rich and famous, cuz I don’t think that happens to a lot, very many writers. It happens to a few. But I would say in terms of pursuing writing seriously, that the biggest element is perseverance, is continuing to be very committed to growth and openness to learning and working on the craft. It’s not an overnight, it’s just not an overnight thing. It takes years to get good at something, including writing, and I would say and being willing to put up with a lot of rejection because I just don’t know very many writers who avoid getting rejected even the very best ones. So I would say perseverance is huge. It takes years to get good at something, including writing, and I would say and being willing to put up with a lot of rejection because I just don’t know very many writers who avoid getting rejected even the very best ones. So I would say perseverance is huge. Debbi (18:26): It is all of that, what you said. Yes, totally. Alright, I totally agree. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we finish up? Lynn (18:38): Oh, I just wanna say what a pleasure has been to talk with you Debbi, and I would love to know more about your work. You mentioned that you write, and so. Debbi (18:49): Oh yes, very much so. <laugh> Lynn (18:52): I would love to know more about your books. And I think one of the lovely things about doing these things is just getting to know other writers. And that’s one of my favorite things about writing festivals, book festivals, and writing conferences is just writers are so such interesting people and it’s a wonderful community. So. Debbi (19:18): It is a wonderful community. That’s why I love doing this podcast, actually. Because I get to meet so many people and everybody has a great story to tell <laugh>. Lynn (19:29): Yes. I bet. I bet. Debbi (19:31): Wonderful. Great. Well, I just wanna say thank you so much for being here and wish you the happiest of New Years. Lynn (19:39): Oh, well thank you. You too. Debbi, I hope 2023 is a great year for you. What are you working on writing wise right now? Debbi (19:48): I’ve got some screenplays I’m working on as well as coming up with ideas for my next novel and also working on a Sam McRae story. Sam McRae is my first, my first series of books was around a protagonist named Sam McRae, who is a lawyer, who solves mysteries. Lynn (20:13): Oh. So, that’s wonderful. Well, you know, we’re going to get off here. I’m going to look you up. Debbi (20:19): Well, we’ll do a bonus round at some point and we can talk about it then. <laugh>. Sound good? Lynn (20:27): Okay. That sounds good. Debbi (20:28): That’s a little teaser for anybody out there who wants to listen in on the bonus round. You have to become a patron, but oh, well, it’s not much. It doesn’t cost much. Well, thank you so much again, Lynn. Lynn (20:44): Thank you. Debbi (20:46): Sure. So by the time you hear this, everybody, it’s going to be 2023. We are recording this in 2022 technically, but it will be 2023. So happy New Year everyone! And thank you for listening. I would like to send a special thank you to all my Patreon patrons. You guys are great. Thank you so much. Here’s hoping for good things to come in the new year for everyone, and my next guest will be Maria Marotti. Until then, take care and happy reading. ***** Become a Patreon supporter for more!