The Finish Line Podcast

Patrick Farrell, co-founder of Keystone Investing, shares how God reshaped his understanding of success, stewardship, and surrender through entrepreneurship, investing, and community. After growing up in a generous household and later chasing performance and achievement, Patrick encountered Jesus in high school and eventually rediscovered a deeper, more relational faith while working at a cybersecurity startup. That season of spiritual renewal planted the seeds for Keystone Investing, a faith-driven investing community helping investors align their capital with Kingdom values. In this conversation, Patrick explains how Keystone creates spaces where investors and founders can pursue both financial excellence and meaningful impact without sacrificing relationships or spiritual formation. He reflects on the dangers of performance-driven stewardship, the importance of wise and thoughtful risk-taking, and why generosity and investing both require surrender to God’s lead. Along the way, he offers practical wisdom for discerning where God may be leading your resources and how community can help shape faithful decision-making. Listen to discover how surrendering control of your finances can open the door to deeper joy, discernment, and Kingdom impact. Major Topics Include: Surrendering control of financial stewardship Investing through relationships, not transactions Breaking performance-driven identity patterns Aligning capital with Kingdom convictions Building community around faith-driven investing Pursuing profit alongside Kingdom impact Discerning risk through intimacy with God Practicing generosity from abundance, not fear Integrating faith into business leadership Cultivating wise stewardship through spiritual formation QUOTES TO REMEMBER “The first step on the stewardship journey is recognizing that all of your capital is God’s. It all belongs to Him.” “If you start there in that position of surrender, I’m so confident that God will do the rest.” “This entire process of faith-driven investing is all about growing in intimacy with the Lord.” “You can make a ton of money, you can have a ton of impact, but if you’re not transformed and the people around you aren’t transformed, then that falls short of what I think God’s goal was.” “We want to find excellent values-aligned founders building intentional mission-driven businesses that are heading toward sustainability and profitability and growth and scale.” “Faith-driven investing can be excellent. It can be excellent for people, excellent for impact, and excellent financially.” “You don’t necessarily have to sacrifice returns in order to see Kingdom impact.” “God is using investing to work on investors.” “God cares about relationships more than really anything else.” “Anything that we set up from a business perspective that deprioritizes relationship tends to fall victim to our sinful nature.” “There are few people within a founder’s life that have more access to them than their investors.” “Most of the time, in my experience, God’s going to push us into more and greater risk to help us rely on Him.” “The steward buried his talent because he was worried about retribution. And the Master is upset that the steward thought of Him that way.” LINKS FROM THE SHOW Keystone Investing Mark Batterson, Pastor and Author (see our past interview here) Praxis (see our interview with Cofounder Josh Kwan) Bill and Dana Wichterman, Givers and Impact Investors (see our past interview here) Faith Driven Entrepreneur Faith Driven Investor Eventide Sovereigns Capital BIBLE REFERENCES FROM THE SHOW Deuteronomy 6:12 | Only by the Grace of God then take care lest you forget the Lord, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. Matthew 25:14–30 | Parable of the Talents James 2:17 | Faith Without Works So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. TAKE A STEP DEEPER On the Finish Line podcast, we are all a

Kristen Shuler, President of East-West Ministries International, shares how God shaped her calling to take the gospel to the world’s least reached people. Raised in a Christian home with a deep commitment to discipleship and missions, Kristen came to faith at a young age and learned early that obedience to God often comes before visible fruit. Those formative experiences, including years of frontline ministry overseas, continue to anchor her leadership today. At East-West, Kristen helps lead a global network focused on multiplying disciples and churches in spiritually dark places where access to the gospel is limited or nonexistent. Rather than relying on outside control, East-West prioritizes local leadership, obedience-based discipleship, and collaboration across ministries, trusting God to grow lasting movements of faith. Kristen speaks honestly about the cost of faithfulness, the patience required when fruit is slow to appear, and the freedom that comes from surrendering outcomes to God. This conversation offers a hopeful vision for wise stewardship, faithful generosity, and finding your place in God’s mission. Listen to explore how obedience, prayer, and collaboration shape lasting Kingdom impact. Major Topics Include: Obedience over visible ministry results Multiplication as a core discipleship DNA Reaching unengaged and unreached people groups Local ownership of the missionary task Obedience based versus knowledge based discipleship Finding joy beyond performance driven ministry Collaboration reshaping global missions strategy Prayer as essential spiritual labor Diverse pathways for Great Commission participation QUOTES TO REMEMBER “The ministry is not about seeing fruit. The ministry is about obedience.” “Even if I didn’t see the fruit, I could trust that He was at work.” “The Lord uses every step of obedience and every seed that’s planted as part of His ultimate plan.” “Discipleship is not just about gaining knowledge, but about being obedient to the Word of God.” “If I tell somebody what to do, that will fail every time. But when God’s Word and the Spirit lead, that’s where transformation happens.” “The Great Commission is a God-given mandate for every follower of Jesus to find their place in.” “It’s not about choosing what feels comfortable, but responding in obedience to what God is asking.” “The people are waiting to hear. They simply need a laborer to come to them.” “Not a single one of us can accomplish the Great Commission on our own.” “That humility we’re seeing across missions organizations is something only the Spirit can do.” “We want to learn, grow, and come with open hands to see what the Lord might do through unity.” “If I’m not abiding in Jesus, I have very little to offer anyone else.” “Do we want to be known for our strategies, or do we want to be known for loving Jesus?” “If we’re not marked by our love for Jesus, our strategies will be ineffective.” LINKS FROM THE SHOW East-West Ministries International International Missions Board Coalition of the Willing (see our interviews with founding members Jared Nelms and Scott Cheatham) The Treasure Principle (see our interview with author Randy Alcorn) BIBLE REFERENCES FROM THE SHOW Matthew 28:19–20 | Make Disciples of All Nations Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age. Acts 1:8 | Witness to the Ends But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth. Galatians 5:25 | Keeping in Step with the Spirit If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. Matthew 9:37–38 | The Harvest Is Plentiful Then he said to his disciples, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; the

Erik Larson, President and CEO of New Covenant Missions, joins the conversation to share how God invited him to leave a stable, successful career in the restaurant industry for a life shaped by obedience and global missions. Raised in a Christian home, Erik experienced seasons of both closeness and distance from Christ before God used disruption, restlessness, and a growing burden for the unreached to redirect his life. What began as contentment in business-as-mission work became a holy invitation to trust God beyond security, leading Erik and his family into indigenous missions across Africa. Through New Covenant Missions, Erik now works to equip and support local church planters who are best positioned to reach their own communities with the gospel. He explains why empowering indigenous leaders, adapting to local cultures, and prioritizing disciple-making are central to sustainable Kingdom impact. The conversation highlights God’s work in some of the most difficult and overlooked places, along with the patience, humility, and discernment required to steward resources wisely and faithfully. Listen to this episode to reflect on how God may be inviting you to say yes, trust Him deeply, and join His work beyond your comfort. Major Topics Include: Invitation versus obligation in God’s calling A unique approach for each culture Contrasting discipleship-making and Church-planting movements Working with “Pauls” and “Timothys” Opening hearts through physical needs The balance of missions and charity The blessing and challenge of a communal mindset Emerging strategies in missions Partnering for Global Impact Getting ready for the Holy Spirit’s move QUOTES TO REMEMBER “God radically disturbed my life.” “The biggest injustice in the world is that there are still people living out there who have no access to Jesus, and we’ve got to change that.” “I felt God say, ‘We’re going to raise up multitudes of indigenous leaders to reach the nations.’” “The people best positioned to reach their communities are the people who already live there.” “What we really want to do is find the people that already have the heart and the passion for the Great Commission and then be the gasoline to their fire.” “We’re not there to build something for them. We’re there to empower what God is already doing through them.” “I like to say they’re born pregnant. As soon as they become believers, we’re training them to make disciples.” “Mission is making disciples who make disciples, not just doing good things in the name of Christ.” “I believe at the route we’re going now that by 2050, we could see a church in every village of the world and no unreached people left.” “When the Holy Spirit decides to move, it can be the hardest place in the world, and suddenly everything changes.” “God is doing all the work anyway. We just get invited to join Him.” “Just say yes, and God does the rest.” LINKS FROM THE SHOW New Covenant Missions Every Home for Christ Joshua Project (see our interview with Director, Dan Scribner) Jesus Film Project (see our interview with Executive Director Josh Newell) Finishing the Task (see our interview with FTT Global Church Planting Strategist Dan Hitzhusen) ACHIEVE Alliance BIBLE REFERENCES FROM THE SHOW Acts 16:9 | Macedonian Call And a vision appeared to Paul in the night, a man of Macedonia was standing there, urging him and saying, ‘Come over to Macedonia and help us.’ Matthew 28:19–20 | The Great Commission Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age. Acts 16:31–33 | Household Faith Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household. John 17:21 | Unity in Mission That they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us,

Raised on a central Missouri farm, Kristin Hammett grew up in a family that loved Jesus and lived out steady generosity, even amid the financial uncertainties of farming life. Watching her parents faithfully give a tithe planted early seeds, but it was during college that she made a deeper commitment to Christ, a decision that quietly set the trajectory for everything that followed. After college, she entered a sales role with a Fortune 50 company, surrounded by benefits and success, yet she began to sense that God might be inviting her into something more than selling consumer goods. After a season as a stay-at-home mom, she discovered a growing desire to see how her professional skills might serve Kingdom purposes. That curiosity led her to become the first part time development director at a local pregnancy center, where God reshaped her understanding of fundraising as ministry, connecting donors to the doers and inviting people to join Him where He is already working. That journey eventually opened the door to joining The Signatry, helping donors steward all God has entrusted to them for Kingdom impact. As Vice President of Family Generosity Services at The Signatry, Kristin has spent her career helping families move from reactive giving to intentional stewardship rooted in faith. Drawing from deep experience on both the nonprofit and givers sides, she now guides families towards alignment, trust, and faithfulness in how they move towards intentional generosity together. Major Topics Include: Generosity as discipline, then joyful invitation Stewarding all assets, not just cash Fundraising as ministry and relationship Connecting donors and doers in God’s work Evaluating impact above overhead in giving Understanding cause dynamics and realistic impact outcomes Trust and partnership between givers and ministries Thinking through non-cash gifts Alignment over agreement in family generosity QUOTES TO REMEMBER “God has all the resources that He needs to fund His work. My role is to connect the resources He’s entrusted to people with the work He’s already doing.” “Impact needs to come before overhead.” “If we’re only asking people to give from cash, we’re really not asking them to steward all that God has entrusted to them.” “Let’s begin to change the conversation, not just about cash, but about all of their assets, and help them understand how those are an opportunity for generosity.” “When you realize you’re connecting the donors and the doers, that’s a pretty incredible place to be.” “You’re not trying to get something from someone. You’re inviting them to join God where He’s already at work.” “In a family, alignment is much more important than agreement.” “If you want everyone to give to exactly what you want to give to, that’s a top-down approach, and it rarely creates enthusiasm.” “If you hold it open-handed and prioritize alignment over agreement, you’ll often find much more joy and engagement.” “Donors are operating in a currency of trust. That trusted partnership is absolutely critical.” “When there’s a trusted partnership between the giver and the organization, God does something formative in both.” “Fundraising is ministry. Anytime you’re engaging someone around their resources, their finances, and their heart, that’s ministry.” “We need to dissolve the barrier between where the ministry happens and where the money comes in, and realize it’s all ministry.” “God doesn’t need our money. He wants our hearts. And that’s really, at the end of the day, the message of generosity.” “Generosity is not just for the ultra high net worth or those making a lot of money, it’s for everyone. God is not interested in the zeros. He’s interested in obedience.” “We’re stewarding our whole life, not just our financial resources, because He wants our heart.” LINKS FROM THE SHOW The Signatry (see our interviews with founder, Bill High, and CEO, Steve French here) Mission Increase National Christian Foundation (see our

Michael Blue serves as Director of Discipleship and former President of the Ron Blue Institute, and his life reflects a steady journey of learning to trust God with open hands. Raised in a home shaped by biblical financial stewardship, Michael developed strong habits around money early on. Yet it was in his thirties, amid professional success and financial security, that God exposed a deeper restlessness. What appeared stable on the surface revealed an inner hollowness, leading Michael and his family into a season of prayer, surrender, and renewed reflection on what faithful obedience truly means. In his current role, Michael focuses on forming biblical and practical financial wisdom in the next generation, particularly among high school and college students. He has also helped pioneer the 9:23 Fellowship, a discipleship journey that invites believers to take up their cross daily and follow Jesus in every area of life, including how they steward money, grow in community, and trust God’s provision. Michael’s calling is to help believers align their finances with wholehearted discipleship, viewing stewardship as worship and generosity as freedom rooted in trust. This episode creates space to rethink money, faith, and obedience in ways that feel both convicting and hopeful. Major Topics Include: Learning to live openhandedly Thinking through savings as a giver Relying on God for provision Engaging younger generations through the Ron Blue Institute Helping the Church recognize and overcome greed and covetousness Four H’s of biblical stewardship for college students The difference between “bread” and “seed” Flourishing together in community Learning to be a good receiver Stretching your faith through steps of generosity QUOTES TO REMEMBER “Giving ought to be joyful and saving ought to be purposeful, but if it’s just rote obedience, you can lose the heart behind it.” “God delights in inviting us to participate in His story.” “Stewardship is managing our money for the glory of God.” “Our capacity to meet people in their time of need all comes down to our margin of time and money.” “Whenever we feel like God gives us more, more often than not, it’s seed for sowing.” “The most generous people are the least fearful people I know. They’re not wracked with anxiety about providing for them in the future.” “We were made to flourish together in community.” “We’re all created to be both givers and receivers, so a healthy church is one where I can both give and receive.” “The thing that drives us to a life of continued generosity is hungering after who God is, what he’s done in our lives, and how we can grow nearer to HIm.” LINKS FROM THE SHOW Ron Blue Institute (see our interview with founder, Ron Blue) The Hole in Our Gospel by Richard Stearns International Justice Mission (IJM) Journey to Generosity (JoG) with Generous Giving (see our interviews with cofounder, Todd Harper and CEO, April Chapman) The Finish Line Community Facebook Group The Finish Line Community LinkedIn Group BIBLE REFERENCES FROM THE SHOW 2 Corinthians 8-9 | The Macedonian Church Matthew 6:33 | Seek First the Kingdom But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. Luke 9:23 | Take Up Your Cross and Follow Jesus And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. WE WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU! If you have a thought about something you heard, or a story to share, please reach out! You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn. You can also contact us directly from our contact page. If you want to engage with the Finish Line Community, check out our groups on Facebookand LinkedIn.

Tom Lawrence always knew his calling had to do with money. Growing up in Southeast London, England, Tom convinced his parents to help him get work experience in hedge funds and investment banks at the young age of twelve. But a few years into his teens, Tom had an amazing encounter with Jesus which turned his whole perspective on life upside down. His passion for money remained, but instead of feathering his own nest, Tom began to see money in the light of funding for the Kingdom. As an adult, Tom spent about ten years as a wealth manager for private banks and wealth management organizations and his views on Kingdom finances grew and matured with him. Suddenly, Tom found himself without a job, and he soon realized that this was an opportunity to know God as Jehovah Jireh, his Provider. During this time, Tom began an intensive study of what the Bible really says about money. That journey reshaped everything—how he understands ownership, stewardship, and the call the pursue true riches. Out of that 200 hours of Bible study, Tom founded the Biblical Financial Masterclass, a 12+ hour course that helps Christians build their financial house using God’s blueprint from Scripture. Now, Tom equips Believers, churches, and organizations to heal their relationships with money and to rethink their financial lives from the heart outward, grounding principles in Scripture and pointing people towards Gospel transformation. Tune in for a fantastic dive into how God’s Word radically reshapes our relationship with money. Major Topics Include: Three dimensions of money and faith Biblical financial insights from 200 hours of study Commonly misunderstood money scriptures Developing his course Equipping to handle what God wants to give you Getting your heart right in relationship with money The Christian motivation for generosity What is “serving Mammon?” Peeling back the layers of Mammon in our lives The truth about extravagance in giving Challenges in engaging the local church in financial conversation QUOTES TO REMEMBER “I was just as passionate about money after I got saved and it gave me a reason why I should be rather than just feathering my nest, which was my main ambition at 13 or 14. Between 15 and 17, I began to see it as an opportunity to fund the Kingdom.” “One of the greatest things that we can do is handle money that’s not ours, in line with Somebody Else’s will, for Somebody Else’s glory in order that it would be redeemed and bring about salvation in people’s lives.” “More than 10% of the entire Bible is given over to talking about money, finances, wealth, and stuff in some form of another. And about 1 in 6 of Jesus’s parables touches on it.” “Do not assume you are outside of God’s will just because you’re going through something difficult.” “Fundamentally, the entirety of the Bible is a display of generosity. It’s a love letter to humanity from God.” “How much money is too much money? It’s any amount that replaces our trust in God.” “Cheerful giving comes down to heart preparation.” “When we avoid talking about money, we are not sparing our congregations awkwardness, we are leaving a gaping hole in their discipleship.” LINKS FROM THE SHOW Biblical Financial Masterclass Stewardship (UK Ministry) The Finish Line Community Facebook Group The Finish Line Community LinkedIn Group BIBLE REFERENCES FROM THE SHOW Luke 16:1-13 | The Parable of the Dishonest Manager Haggai 2: 6-7 | The Coming Glory of the Temple For thus says the Lord of hosts: Yet once more, in a little while, I will shake the heavens and the earth and the sea and the dry land. And I will shake all nations, so that the treasures of all nations shall come in, and I will fill this house with glory, says the Lord of hosts. Deuteronomy 8:18 | God Give the Power to Get Wealth You shall remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you power to get wealth, that he may confirm his covenant that he swore to your fathers, as it is this day. P

Doug Cobb, founder of The Finishing Fund, is passionately convicted that we could see the fulfillment of the Great Commission in our generation. In 1994, Doug’s life was changed when he joined Paul Eshleman and the Jesus Film Project for a trip to Nigeria where he caught the vision to see completely unengaged people groups reached with the Gospel. Utilizing his background in startups and venture capital, Doug eventually founded The Finishing Fund, a venture capital fund for the Great Commission, connecting donors to projects intended to reach the unengaged with the Gospel for the first time. In the last eight years, The Finishing Fund has helped get the Gospel to about 800 people groups who had never heard it before. In his most recent book, The Sprint to the Finish, Doug discusses three major finish lines that need to be crossed to fulfill the Great Commission—seeing a first Believer in every known people group, a Bible translated into every language, and a church established in every village on Earth. To date, there are only 20 unengaged people groups left in the world, and by God’s grace, The Finishing Fund and its collaborative partners have a shared goal to see the entire world reached with the Gospel by 2033. Doug’s conviction is simple but bold: The mission Jesus gave us can be completed in this generation, and God is already making it happen. If you want a front row seat to what God is doing around the world right now, you won’t want to miss this episode. Major Topics Include: Three finish lines to completing the Great Commission The current state of Gospel work in the world Comparing approaches—church planting and disciple making Stories of signs, wonders, and miracles drawing people to Jesus Fueling the Gospel spark in a community The biggest obstacles to fulfilling Great Commission What operational collaboration looks like The evangelistic power of a new Believer The Great Wealth Transfer and the Great Commission Looking forward to the return of Jesus QUOTES TO REMEMBER “The statistics tell us that most Christians sitting in churches can’t even tell you what the great commission is, much less can they tell you anything about what’s happening.” “I think we’re within a year or two by God’s grace of seeing the work begun in every people group.” “God is preparing people of peace in these places and it’s almost like the Spirit is there tapping His toe and waiting for us to show up to close the deal. He’s already working in the hearts and minds of people to prepare them.” “When God’s people are willing to go, Jesus will go with them.” “Why would the Spirit not do today what He did way back then to validate the testimony of Paul and the other apostles?” “I don’t think it’s coincidental that God has created this wealth in the last days at a time when it’s needed, and that creates an enormous responsibility for our generation.” “This generation has more than we need to complete the Great Commission.” LINKS FROM THE SHOW The Sprint to the Finish by Doug Cobb The Finishing Fund (see our interview with founder Doug Cobb) Jesus Film Project (see our interview with Executive Director Josh Newell) Finishing the Task (see our interview with FTT Global Church Planting Strategist Dan Hitzhusen) IllumiNations Bible Translation Alliance (see our interview with Todd Peterson or John Chesnut) ACHIEVE Alliance New Covenant Missions Coalition of the Willing Jim Wise, Financial Advisor with Ronald Blue Trust (see our past interview here) The Finish Line Community Facebook Group The Finish Line Community LinkedIn Group BIBLE REFERENCES FROM THE SHOW Luke 16:10a | Faithfulness One who is faithful in a very little is also faithful in much, Matthew 28:19 | The Great Commission Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 24:14 | Then the End Will Come And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the who

Christin Fejervary serves at the National Christian Foundation, where she helps understand generous Christians and the patterns shaping their stewardship. Coming from a background in research before joining NCF, Christin has helped execute numerous large studies which have helped shape the current understanding of Christian givers. This past year, Christin helped lead NCF in some of the most comprehensive research on millennial Christians through the NextGen Stewardship Study, a comprehensive study focused on how young Christians, particularly Millennials and Gen Z, approach wealth and generosity. Christin explains the enormity of the Great Wealth Transfer, projected at $124 trillion to be passed on to these generations by 2048, and the need to understand their unique characteristics and motivations. Her work highlights how agency, shared family values, and hands-on involvement are shaping this rising generation, as well as the unique opportunities emerging as women inherit a growing share of global wealth. She also describes the practical ways families can cultivate unity through generosity and why younger Christians are eager to bring their whole lives, not just their finances, into God’s work. Whether you are a next generation giver or are navigating how to enable the next generation yourself, you’ll find this episode packed with insight. Major Topics Include: How agency shapes stewardship and spiritual growth Differences between wealth creators, inheritors, and hybrids Generational contrasts in trust, involvement, and giving patterns The rising influence and needs of next-gen women Family unity formed through shared passions and giving Tips for preparing for the Great Wealth Transfer wisely Practicing stewardship through small, hands-on decisions Unlocking whole-life generosity beyond liquid assets Advice for organizations who are trying to engage multiple generations God’s invitation to women in stewardship QUOTES TO REMEMBER “I was learning how to pursue a relationship with Jesus in the everyday. It wasn’t just about going to church on Sundays. It was really about bringing Jesus into every part of my life.” “In my 20s, when I started to understand this relationship with Jesus, it was something where I could actually have conversations with Jesus and ask for help.” “God just showed up. He provided so much in those early years when we didn’t feel like we had much money.” “Faith is the guiding principle in stewarding wealth for all generations.” “The attribute that was most correlated to positivity about wealth was seeing it as responsibility, that it’s about God’s work in the world and joining God’s work in the world.” “Taking action helps your faith. It helps you grow closer to your family. It helps you grow closer to your purpose.” “Women at large and the cohort of next-gen women are more likely to be collaborative, they’re more likely to do giving circles, and they’re looking for a journey more than a transaction.” “Women and mothers are the biggest influences of generosity in the home.” “Women, especially women inheritors, struggle to find their voice. They don’t feel like they have a voice at the table of wealth transfer and those conversations.” “Younger generations want to see the data. They want to see the impact and the numbers. They want to get personally involved because they feel they can make the difference.” “We’re seeing more and more people give from the ninety percent of their wealth, not just the ten percent they hold in liquid assets.” “I think God is showing up in tangible ways and urging people to give from all of their wealth and not just their liquid assets.” LINKS FROM THE SHOW National Christian Foundation (see our interview with President Emeritus, David Wills) The NCF Next Gen Stewardship Study Julie Wilson, President of Women Doing Well (see our past interview here) Generous Giving (see our interviews with cofounders Todd Harper and David Wills and CEO, April Chapman) I