The IC-DISC Show

The biggest opportunities often sit in the work everyone else is afraid to touch. In this episode of the IC-DISC Show, I sit down with Scott Abels, a CPA and business valuation specialist in Austin, to talk about why he built his practice around estate, trust, and gift valuations, the one area most professionals avoid. Scott spent 25 years in corporate finance at Dell and Motorola before launching his own firm. He moved from CFO consulting into valuation, then narrowed further into estate and trust work, an area with its own IRS code sections, examination rates above 20% on large estates, and the highest error rate he's seen. He walked through the landmines, retained rights and marketability discounts among them, where a single mistake can wipe out a client's discounts entirely. What struck me was his case for getting the valuation expert in during planning, not after, when it's often too late to fix anything. The same logic shows up in his turnaround standard of 30 to 45 days and the dozen questions he tells attorneys to ask before hiring anyone. Scott also revealed a project he'd been quietly working on, a plain-English book for Texas attorneys, and his answer for how the busiest professionals actually want to be helped.     SHOW HIGHLIGHTS * The riches really are in the niches: narrowing from CFO work to a field with fewer than 10 true specialists turned a commodity service into a moat. * The IRS examines large estates more than 20% of the time, because it knows that's where taxpayers try to avoid taxes, so the valuation has to hold up. * Get your valuation expert involved during estate planning, not after; retained rights and other landmines often can't be fixed once the structure is set. * A buy-sell agreement signed and executed perfectly still won't bind the IRS, which weighs economic reality over legal form every time. * Overstep on discounts and the penalty isn't just losing them; the IRS can throw out your whole valuation and re-value with no discounts at all. * Before hiring a valuation pro, ask their guaranteed turnaround time and whether they offer audit defense; vague answers signal it's a side service, not their focus.   Contact Details LinkedIn - Scott Abels LINKS Show NotesBe a Guest About IC-DISC AllianceAbout ETG Valuations TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Good morning, Scott. Welcome to the podcast. Scott: Thanks, Dave. Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to visiting with you. Dave: Sure. So where are you located today? What part of the world are you calling into from today? Scott: I'm in Austin, Texas. Cloudy, Austin, Texas this morning and just up the road from you a bit. Dave: Okay, well, that sounds good. So I've been really excited to have you on here. You were a guest a while back. You've kind of had some updates that I want to talk about. So why don't we just talk out. Scott: Talk. Dave: Give me a little bit of your background, you know, where are you from, what you're, you know, how'd you get to this point in your career? Scott: Sure. So I'm a Texas boy, born and raised. Went off to college, majored in accounting, got my accounting degree at the University of Houston and went, went straight into industry. Got my CPA shortly after. After I graduated and went into industry. And I spent about 25 years in what I call corporate America. Dell, Motorola, in corporate finance. And you know, most of my background is running a business division of a larger business. So it's really understanding how businesses work, how the day to day operation works, how's. How does the business model work from a financial perspective? Because I did that for about 25 years. Started my own consulting business about 15 years ago now. Dave: Okay. Scott: Initially, I started out as a CFO consultant, just kind of using the things that I learned in corporate America for smaller businesses in the. Mainly in the Austin area. And really quickly I, I had a client early on who needed help with business valuation, wanted to buy out a minority partner, and so I went away and got the valuation credential, the cva. It's essentially a CPA for business valuation. Dave: Okay. Scott: And I did a couple of these business valuations and I realized several things really quickly, Dave. I realized that these are like business valuation is like a puzzle. It's like a little business puzzle. And it's just perfectly suited to my background in understanding how businesses work. So I really, I like the work and it's well suited to my background. Other things I realized is as a CFO in Austin, I'm probably one of a thousand. Lots of competition, really. A commoditized service at the time that I started out, probably still is. As a business valuation professional, though, I'm probably one of 15 or 20. Okay. And there's probably only, you know, there's probably fewer than 10 of those that specialize and do nothing but business valuation. It's much more of a niche and you know, Much more of a specialized industry. And it just was a great fit with my background. So that's where I am today. I'm specialized in business valuation. And, you know, my background as a CPA and in corporate America has really kind of lent itself well to what I do currently. Dave: Okay. No, I appreciate that oversight. And, you know, my business is somewhat similar that, you know, there's a saying the riches are in the niches, and I'm convinced. But I find most professionals don't have the courage to really truly focus on a niche because to say yes to the niche, you have to say no to everything else. And so I really respect, you know, niching know, you know, kind of highly focused on the valuation. But then it sounds like you've done. You've decided to niche even further. So talk to me about that. I see what's in your background. I assume that's got something to do with does. Scott: It does. And you know, Dave, I'd like to tell you that I planned this whole thing out and that it was all this, you know, deep thought and yeah, this business research and everything else. But it really just has kind of evolved along the way, you know, from doing CFO work, which is pretty broad, to. To doing business. Valuation was, you know, really a specialization move there. But it made sense for my background and it was a, you know, a good opportunity based on. On, you know, what my skill set was and what I found now after doing valuations for several years is that one area that I think has the, you know, maybe a greater need than any other is estate trust and gift valuations. And, you know, the reason, there's really three reasons that I can think of. One is that it's. It has its own specialized IRS rules and regulations for estate trust and gift. So it's almost like there's every other valuation and then there's estate trust and gift that has its own specialized code sections, and it's very different from typical valuations. Another reason is that the IRS really scrutinizes estate, trust and gift valuations more than any other. So, for example, large estates, they are examined greater than 20% of the time when their returns are. Their tax returns are. That's a really high examination rate. And the reason is because the IRS knows that there's ways in there that taxpayers can avoid taxes. And so, as you might imagine, the IRS is not a big fan of taxpayers avoiding taxes. So they're going to examine those, especially the big estates. So specialized rules. The IRS loves to look at these. And the last reason is this is an area that, where evaluation folks make mistakes probably more than any other is what my research has told me. You know, it cries out for somebody to really specialize in this kind of work. And because, like I said, just because not everybody can do this. The problem is a lot of folks try to do this as a one off. And that's where we really end up hearing the horror stories about how the IRS picks these things apart. So for me, where a lot of people see this as an area of risk they don't want to touch. It's an area that I run to because it, you know, again with my specialization in this area, it allows me to work in the here and to see it as a real opportunity to serve clients better than what they might normally get from their, from their okay CPA or from, you know, from many other valuation professionals. Dave: Yeah, and I suppose it's a little bit like you, like a generalist valuation person. Doing a state trust or gift valuation is a little bit like a corporate attorney who really is great at corporate work. M and a contract work. And then they have a buddy who says, hey, we need to do this, we need to set up some, you know, this is this trust and we need to do some gift work. And the attorney says, yeah, sure, no problem. Right? I mean, technically they're qualified, right. They're a member of the state bar, they have a law degree. And so, you know, and the IRS recognizes that degree. But is it kind of a similar thing where you just, people just don't know what they don't know? Scott: It is. And I just look back to when I started doing these, I didn't know about all of the different code sections either. I wasn't doing these things at the time. And when I started doing these a few years ago, I realized, you know, some of the specialized knowledge and code sections that you have, and after doing them for a number of years now, I think I realized it even more. And it just is, it's a flashpoint area for the irs. They know that there is a lot of potential to go in here and claw back revenue because of things like discounts and retained rights. Things that don't come up in normal, you know, discounts come up in normal valuations, but not the way they do in estate and trust and gift valuations. And it's a, it's an area where you can, you know, clients can take advantage of the rules to save themselves significant taxes, but if they don't do it properly or if they, if they overstep the penalties are huge. So not only do they lose what they thought they had in discounts, for example, but the IRS may completely invalidate their whole valuation and go back and value it for them with no discounts. So the penalties are huge here. Which, again, I think is a reason that I see this as a huge opportunity to help clients navigate what is really a minefield here. It's a, it's an opportunity, but it can potentially be a huge downside if it's not done properly. And being able to offer that kind of specialized knowledge, I think is very valuable to clients and especially to their attorney partners. Dave: Yeah, I can understand that. And, you know, is this is when you get, when you pick up valuation clients in this space, is it like it was in the. When you're doing general value valuations where you just get a call from somebody out of the blue and they say, hey, Scott, you know, I've got this trust set up and I need evaluation done. Is that how the clients come to you? Is it just the actual end user calling you, or does it come to you some other mechanism? Scott: So it's. The short answer is no. It's seldom the end user because the end users don't usually know what they don't know. Right. They are reliant upon an attorney. So in almost every case it's going to be in a state and trust attorney who's going to recognize there's a triggering event where they need to get evaluation done and they'll reach out to me or to another valuation professional at that point in time. And so that's where the whole process usually starts. Interestingly enough, what I share with estate and trust attorneys when I visit with them, have a coffee shop conversation, is that it's even better, more advantageous to them and their clients to get their valuation person, regardless of who that is, to get them involved on the planning side way at the beginning of this, when the estate and trust attorney is putting together the whole, you know, the whole package of here's what we're going to do, here's the way we're going to set these things up, and here's how it's all going to flow. Because, you know, sometimes what we find is we do that valuation way later, way after the estate planning has been done, and we find these issues like retained, retained rights, for example, it's too late, then there's nothing else we can do. It's already, it's going to do, you know, it's going to, it's going to be a negative for the clients at that point. Whereas if we had been involved on the front end of the planning in this thing, we might have been able to say, hey, look, the IRS is going to look at that and they're going to disallow that as far as a tax advantage goes. So let's find a different way, you know, to work around that. But all that work, regardless, it comes in through attorneys or their CPAs. Client CPAs. Attorneys and CPAs who have business owner clients who experience a triggering event. And that's how we get involved. Dave: Yeah. And I know, I know that attorneys get a bad rap in certain circles, but I know that you and I, one, you know, we've known each other a while and one thing we each have in common is we, I think in a different life, either or both of us could have very well gone to law school, practice law. I know you have a brother who's an attorney, but I think early in your professional career, I think you had an insight into the legal profession that I think helped develop that appreciation for the profession. Is that right? So tell me about that. I know there's a story, but I really don't remember much about it. Scott: So you've been digging into my background here, Dave, I can tell. And you've done a good job. So early on. You're exactly right. Early on, I was from a small town in Texas called Bay City, about an hour and a half southwest of Houston there, and small town. And I worked for an attorney who was a family friend, a well known guy in the community. We knew him from church and like family and everything, and he was kind enough to let me work for him as a small one man office during the summer and during breaks and I got exposure to the legal profession like, like you could never get today, you know, here I am, a kid in college, don't have, I don't have any kind of legal skills or background or anything, but. But the one thing I was curious and willing to kind of jump in and wanted to learn stuff. And the attorney's name was Lynn Grebe. He was a general practitioner. So I got to see estate, trust wills, I got to see general business stuff. I got to see divorces, real estate, even did some small criminal defense stuff. So he's a generalist. Dave: Yeah. Small town, you kind of have to be. Scott: Right, exactly. So I went to the courthouse and filed suits and filed documents. I did some legal research, some, you know, lightweight legal research, but. And I listened, you know, I drafted documents for him and I just, I got to spend a lot of time with this guy. He was very generous. And as a one man office, I had access to him on a, you know, on a, you know, full day basis. So I got to see how he thinks, I got to see how attorneys work, I got to see how the legal profession works. And what I figured out was it really is, it's a very logical thinking kind of, you know, of a practice of a work. And, and it just thought, hey, you know, I, I like this. It's logical, it makes sense, Communication is really big. And I was always a good writer and I was just kind of drawn to that work. And I got to see again how a law office works early on. And Lynn was really a, was a professional role model for me. My parents were not professionals, business professionals. So he was, early on he was a role model for me as to how you conduct yourself, how you run a business. And, and I just really, you know, kept a lot of those things that I learned from him early on. And so I, you know, when I got out of college, got my cpa, when I started my own business working with attorneys, it was, it was kind of a natural, comfortable throwback for me, Remembering how law offices work, remembering how attorneys think, the time pressures, the schedules, all of those things that go in with being attorneys. It was kind of a, like I said, a natural return to some of those things for me. The other thing you didn't mention is, you're right, I've got a brother who's an attorney, I've got a son who's an attorney. You know, I can't do lawyer jokes anymore. I'm not allowed to do those without really offending family members. I've learned to, I've learned to huddle with attorneys on a regular basis at home and at work. Yeah. Dave: And the other thing that I've noticed About attorneys and CPAs is that, and I think it's part of what motivates them professionally. And when I tell this to attorneys and CPAs, they kind of all shucks, downplay it, but they really are, in many situations, they're a hero, they're a superhero to their clients. They are either saving them from a dire circumstance like, you know, the client was audited and they have to come in and clean up, or they were sued or they're doing planning that, that really relies on that. And I think one of the things that I especially appreciate about attorneys is they are this in some ways, you know, they're right up there, I think, with the cpa and you can make a case of which one is the more trusted advisor and maybe depends on the circumstances. But I've noticed the attorneys I've met, they really relish that fiduciary duty to their clients. They don't take it lightly. And they really are about the big picture and especially on the estate and trust side. I mean, they're doing work that, that's going to survive them and they're, they have to have a long term focus and a patience and a discipline and they have to be willing to push back on the client and say, yeah, I know it's helpful if we value this business at $5 million, but come on, Charlie, this business is worth $40 million. So maybe we can get some discount, you know, and maybe make it valued at 30 or 35 million. But we can't value it 5 million. And if we do, we're just asking for trouble. Scott: So anyway, that's kind of been my Dave: experience of working with attorneys. How has yours been? Have you had a similar experience? Scott: Yeah, and I go back to Lynn, Lynn Grievy, the attorney that I worked for. You just explained exactly the relationship that Lynn had with his clients. You know, these people looked up to him as a, you know, one of the, one of the towers of the community. He really was the guy that, that, you know, that looked out for the, you know, the common man in, in many ways, like you said. So he really was, you know, just a great figure in the little small town when I was there. And so many of the attorneys that I work with now, and especially estate and trust attorneys, Dave, as I work with these folks and, and I know a number of them and you know, and speak with them on a regular basis, even when we're not working on a particular evaluation case. And they are, like you said, they are not just doing a service for that client, they are doing something for that client's children and grandchildren oftentimes. And the clients are trusting these attorneys, especially the estate and trust attorneys, to know this mountain of regulation and to understand how to help them navigate based on their, their particular circumstances, something that's going to survive them and their children and maybe down to their grandchildren. So I agree with you. Most attorneys that I know relish what it is that they do because they can do something that not everyone can do for those clients and they love making clients happy. Dave: Yeah, yeah, that's certainly been my experience as well. Well, why don't we dive just a little bit more into the estate and trust and valuation discount. What are some other, like, if there's an estate attorney Listening to this, what are some other things that maybe they're not familiar with? As far as landmines or opportunities on the valuation side? What are some other things that come to mind? Scott: You know, it's interesting that you, that you mentioned that there's several IRS code sections that deal with very specialized rules. And so we actually, you know, have done some research to find out what are the rules that most often trip up, you know, attorneys and their clients. And we recently put together a white paper that I've shared with a lot of my trust and estate attorney friends of some of the, in this case, the six top things that tend to trip up attorneys and their clients. And it's, you know, it's things like treating a family buy sell agreement as fair market value. Just because you prepare a buy sell agreement and you go through the formal documents and have everyone sign it and you say, hey, here's what the value of our LLC is going to be. Just because you've done everything properly legally doesn't mean that the IRS is going to accept that. The IRS looks at the economic reality over the legal form. So just because you say, you know, hey, we gave this property away, you know, from this client, this client, you know, gave this property away, and so it's not included at his estate, the IRS looks at it differently and they say, okay, you gave it away, but you gave it away two days before you died. You know, this is almost, it's not, you weren't really looking to give this stuff away. You're looking to avoid taxes to your estate, right? Or let's say that the client says, hey, I'm giving away this, this, this business interest, you know, to my kids, but I'm retaining the right to, to make dividends, you know, from that business interest. The IRS looks at that and says, you're like, we call that retained rights. The IRS says, hey, you're retaining, you know, certain rights to that business that suggests that you still control it. So guess what? That business interest, you know, for $30 million that you said you gave away is not part of your estate. You effectively kept that. We're going to pull that back into your estate now and you're going to owe us taxes on that. And you've got a huge estate. So this means that your marginal tax rate on that business is, you know, it's astronomical. So, so those are some of the types of things. But it's, you know, it's knowing specialized rules like, you know, retained rights. It's another area where the IRS really gets folks is in discounts. Dave: Okay. Scott: Oftentimes. So discounts are a legal tool to use to represent a market reality. And so let me just give you an example there. You know, we have what we call a marketability discount that we can take on a business interest. And what that means is I can't turn this into cash very easily. A marketability discount shows the market reality that my privately held business, if I wanted to liquidate it, it would take me some amount of time and probably a lot of time, probably many months to liquidated. And therefore a, an informed investor would pay me less for that. They would discount that. Dave: That's a, sooner you want to close, the bigger the discount. Scott: Right? Dave: I mean, if you went to an arm's length transaction, that said, I have this $50 million business that would normally require a year of due diligence and you say to them, what will you give me to close on this business in one month? Well, they naturally are going to put a huge discount on that to account for the fact that they're having to skip their normal due diligence to offset their risk. Scott: Yeah, it really is a risk and return thing, is what these discounts represent, but it represents a market reality. Okay. What you can't do, though, what the IRS really frowns on is when maybe, let's say it's a CPA or somebody who only does valuations part time and they, you know, they're going to go look and they're going to say, oh, okay, for, for this type of asset, the average marketability discount is 35%. So boom, there we go. We're going to put 35% on it. They don't bother to explain it in the report because there's nothing to explain. They just went and found the market average. And the IRS is going to say, absolutely not. The discount needs to reflect the market reality of what's going on here. And, and using an average is not acceptable. And there's tons of court cases that show this. Now, if you went, for example, and found a court case with an asset that was very similar to yours, and they took a 50% marketability discount because of certain market realities with that business, and you and your business was very similar and had the same set of facts and circumstances, you might be able to take a 50% discount, but you've used a court case or you've used, you know, solid reasoning for how you did that. You didn't just take an average. So discounts are a huge area that the IRS loves to attack. And then like I said, the Last thing, really is the overriding theme in so many of these estate, trust and gift rules of the IRS is valuing the economic reality over the legal form. So just because you say that you gave something away, if you retain the right and use, you know, the ability to use it and to enjoy it and to have certain rights, the IRS says, I don't care that you've got a legal document that's signed. You didn't really give away those, those things from an economic perspective. And so you lose your discount and we're going to hit you where it hurts, which is in tax dollars. So that's what makes, you know, this area of specialization, you know, so difficult for a lot of folks. You don't want somebody who dabbles in this stuff. You really need to know these rules and to have dealt with them and to be experienced in this. Dave: So that's a really interesting point on the discount because, and I guess it's because these are related party transactions is what causes the scrutiny. Because if you have a $50 million business and you have a unrelated third party and they strike a deal to buy the business for $25 million and that's what everybody agrees to, then that's the price. And there's really no way for any other entity, a government body, a bank, anyone else, to really question it. Or conversely, if they're. A bidding war happens and that $50 million business sells for $100 million, that the contract governs it. As long as, you know, it meets the elements of a contract, that contract is valid. And it just strikes me that I could see somebody being tripped up on this because like you said, they could have all the I's dotted, the T's crossed, it being notarized, being signed by all the parties, I could see all that happening. And it seems like that $50 million business that you valued at $25 million, on the surface, everybody may think, hey, we're in great shape, I's dotted, T's crossed, everybody signed it, we had it notarized, we signed in a fancy office, everybody was sober, we're good. So is that, is it the related party aspect that creates the nuance and the difference? Scott: That. That is a big part of it. So in estate trust work, we're talking about, you know, it's clients that are doing things for themselves that often involves their family members or close friends. And so that's exactly what it is. So if, like you said, if, you know, a sale to an unrelated third party, that's market value, unless there's something else going on under the table. Otherwise, it's, by definition, it's what the market would pay and, you know, a buyer who doesn't have to buy and a seller who doesn't have to sell. But when you're doing these things, when you're gifting something to your children or to your spouse and you're assigning a value to that, it's a much different story, right? Because now it's, that's a family member or a person that's close to you. And you know, the real thing here, that that's, that that causes the friction, Dave, is that, you know, IRS rules allow people to take advantage of certain things to pay less taxes. There's certain things you can do. You can take discounts. The thing is, you can't take, you can't just willy nilly take discounts. They have to be properly supported and they have to be market based. And, and unfortunately, those things are not clear and objective. It's like, okay, you get, you do 1, 2, 3. And it works perfectly every time, right? There's a lot of subjective knowledge that goes into this, but at the end of the day, it needs to make sense to the irs. And they make the assumption they're at, they're adverse from us, right? From us and our clients. And their assumption is this thing is probably wrong unless you can prove to me that it's right. And that may not seem fair, but oftentimes that's kind of the way it is with the valuation. So it's really important to prepare that valuation from the perspective of, I'm expecting that the IRS is going to ask me these questions and they're going to push on me on these areas. And so I want this report to be so clear, when they look at it, it's like, okay, well, I see what he did. I may not fully agree with it, but what he did was reasonable and he didn't take any crazy positions. As opposed to just doing a standard valuation where you don't really speak specifically to some of those issues. You leave those areas of interpretation open for the irs and they're going to take advantage of that every time because they've done way more of these than our client has. Right? Dave: Well, I couldn't. But I always thought that once you did the valuation, you were done, you washed your hands of it. You said, hey, that's it, we got this crazy 80% discount. I'm done, I've washed my hands of this, and I never am going to be asked about this again. Is that how it goes. Scott: And I'm sure that you're being facetious when you ask that question. That's how it goes with some evaluation professionals, unfortunately. But that's not how it goes at atg. The way that we do these things, when we do evaluation like this, we always offer what we call audit defense. And you know, what that means, is that if the IRS picks this thing up and does a first line of examination of this, we're going to represent you. Whether that means sitting down with him face to face or answering emails or getting on a zoom call, we're going to defend our work. And so we're going to talk to the IRS and say, hey, look, here's what we did. Here's why we did it. And, you know, the IRS doesn't always have to agree with you. That's okay. They may not agree with you on everything. They probably won't. But as long as you. As long as you can clearly explain and it makes sense from a market perspective, you're going to be okay. And so when we prepare these things, we know that we are going to be having to explain this to the IRS potentially, and that's the perspective that we take. You know, one of the things we. That we typically say is we think like the irs, before the IRS ever shows up, we're thinking like, okay, what are the questions that they're going to ask? What are the areas that we need to really do? Make sure that we've got this thing perfectly buttoned up and prepare that. Like, we're going to sit down with an IRS agent who's angry and hasn't had his coffee on that day. And so we do that in advance for every one of these, knowing that we're going to. That we're going to be. That we're going to be on the hook if they examine this thing? And so we're never. We don't ever leave the client, you know, hung out to dry. It's like, okay, I do see that from time to time where clients come and they've got a. They've got evaluation, or their attorney comes and says, hey, we got this valuation. And it seemed really great, but the IRS has got all these questions about this 80% discount, and we don't know how to answer them. And we can do what we can do to try to, you know, to try to help the situation. We can't fix those things that, that, you know, if it's. If they've taken. If somebody else has taken a position that's not defensible. Not a whole lot we can do, but hopefully what we can do is just to help to, you know, to smooth it as much as possible or to prepare the client in advance for, you know, for what is likely to happen here is oftentimes what we do. Dave: Well, it sounds like your approach is more thorough and probably takes more time than just, you know, somebody who, you know, has some boilerplate language. They do 10 minutes of research, they say the average discount for this industry should be 40%. They plug it in, they have a five page report and they say that's that. You know, is this one of those things of you, you get what you pay for? It is. Scott: It is. It definitely takes more time for us to do it the way that we do it, which is building that report, assuming that the IRS is going to ask us questions, takes more time and it costs the client a little bit more to do that. But the downside is such that it more than pays for itself. If you think about it, we're, you know, I talk with the clients, with attorney referral partners about this. Where would you rather your client be? Would you rather them be elated about that 80% discount that they got that is not defensible? Or would you. Are you still going to be there when the IRS examines this? They got a 1 in 5 chance of examining it. Are you going to want to be there when you have to give them the bad news that the IRS disallowed the discount? And the problem is, Dave, that if the valuation is off significantly, the IRS doesn't just say, oh, no, that's not 80, it should have been 50%. So we're just going to take the delta. They look at it and they say, it's 80, it should have been 35. You guys screwed this up so bad that we're going to disallow the whole discount. And oh, by the way, that other discount that you took to, you took a control discount, it's automatically disallowed too, because you have so egregiously misstated this. And they can take the final step of saying, we're going to disallow the whole valuation here. We're going to set the value and you don't get any discount. So that's the absolute worst that could happen. But think about it. When they disallow that, that big discount that you've promised your client, and they've probably put the money in the bank and maybe even spent it, now you got to go back and say, hey, we don't. Not only do we not get that. That 50 or 80% discount, but you got to turn around and pay taxes on that whole amount. And, you know, for these larger estates, it could be millions of dollars. It's oftentimes. It's always thousands, hundreds of thousands, oftentimes millions of dollars that the client didn't think they were going to have to pay. They were super happy when they got that really cheap valuation. But. But it's like, okay, would you have paid, you know, 25 or 30% more for the valuation if. If you would have known that it was going to save you this whole debacle? Dave: Yeah. We're talking thousands of dollars in additional fees versus millions or tens of millions of dollars of tax exposure. Scott: Absolutely. That. That is potentially it. So I have never seen a case where, when the IRS reviews these things, where the incremental fee, you know, that the client, you know, would have paid is more than the, you know, the exposure that they have to the irs. It's always, you know, a multiple of that. So that, you know, the easy way to say it is there's huge downside here. And a lot of times, if it's a big estate and, you know, and there's some thorny issues involved, it makes much more sense to go ahead and get these things done right the first time. Dave: Okay. And, I mean, I. I know a lot of attorneys and some of the estate planning attorneys I know just getting ready for this call, I'd asked them, like, what are some of their frustrations with valuations? And one of the things they said is just re. Is responsiveness. They said, there are some firms out there. They said, you know, we're kind of under the gun. We brought the valuation person in too late, and they need three months to do this valuation. And, you know, sometimes it's a part of a large bureaucratic organization, and it's just, you know, there's just that. And my sense is that you all, being a boutique firm, focused purely on this, I'm guessing you have service options where you can turn things around more responsively than, you know, months. Is that true? Scott: Yeah, that is absolutely, Dave. You know, our standard Turnaround is usually 30 to 45 days. Oh, wow. Dave: Okay. Scott: You know, for an estate trust or gift valuation. And we, you know, we don't. As part of our standard package, we don't offer it quicker than that. We can deliver sooner than that. But of course, it's going to be an additional fee if you wait till the last minute. Yeah. Dave: You're paying overtime for your team and Scott: all somebody's got to sleep less when we do this thing and somebody has to sleep less. Dave: And, and that's what they're paying for. Scott: They're paying for those hours of sleep that they missed. But, but you know, Dave, I put together for, for some of my referral partners, I put together a list of 11 or 12 questions that, that they should ask or that they should think about when they're looking for a valuation professional. And this is one of them. You know, you know, one of the questions is do you have the, do you have evaluation credentials? Some of those are easy, but you know, another question is what's your turnaround time on these things? And, and if they say, oh, it's, you know, 60 days, 90 days, we don't know. Those are all signs that either they don't know what they're doing and you know, it's a crapshoot as to how long it's going to take them or they're busy. The valuation is not really their primary line of business. Oftentimes it's happened with CPA firms. Tax, tax or audit is their primary focus. Yeah, maybe the two or three folks that do business valuation part time are slammed with tax deadlines. And so, yeah, so if you call Dave: them in late January, good luck in getting anything done before May. Scott: I have this happen all the time where clients, you know, they don't get any responsiveness during tax season because they, their CPA or you know, a well known firm here in town who may have evaluation person or two that do this stuff. They can't get to it because their primary focus is tax or audit. And even worse is when the clients have questions about evaluation that their CPA firm valuation department did and they can't get anybody to call them back because they're slammed with deadlines. So just, it's another good reason why, you know, I encourage clients or referral partners to ask about those things on the front end. You know, what's your turnaround time? And you know, do you have a guaranteed turnaround time? Do you have, do you offer audit defense if you don't, why, you know, with the big firms, with the, you know, the large regional or national firms, the reason they don't is because they don't have to. They can afford to charge you whatever they want. Dave: Sure. Scott: But you know, but attorneys should ask those questions up front when they're interviewing potential valuation professionals. Ask those questions and you know, get answers on those things beforehand so that you're not, you know, three months later waiting to get that information. Dave: And yeah, it really sounds like you really could be a great resource for estate attorneys. You know, have you ever thought about writing a book or something geared. Sorry, I should have waited for you to finish your drinking coffee. Have you ever thought about writing a book like, geared specifically toward estate planning attorneys on some things they might need to know about valuation in the estate, trust and gift valuation world? Have you even thought about it, Scott? Scott: You know, we should have done the Tonight show together. You could be Ed McMahon and I could be Johnny Carson or Vice, but. Yeah, you're kind enough to bring that up, Dave. Actually, I have just recently written a book. It's actually in print now. I just. I just yesterday, probably two or three weeks away from having copies in my hand. And the name of the book is Business Valuation A Plain English Guide for Texas Attorneys. Oh, wow. Dave: Okay. Scott: It's exactly what it sounds like. It's written in plain English. There's no technical jargon, no acronyms, no mathematical formulas or anything else. What we did was, you know, we wrote a book that. That answers the questions that attorneys have most often. Do I need evaluation? Does it need to be certified? What are the landmines I should look out for? Is there certain terms that I need to understand in order to be conversant in this? That's what we've done. We've written a book. I go around meeting attorneys on a regular basis, as we do, networking, like we all do, and meet them oftentimes in a coffee shop. I call those coffee shop conversations, where it's just a casual conversation with an attorney, and he may. He or she may bring up a. An issue, you know, a specific issue they have with a client or something, and we can just. It's just a casual conversation. And that's what I want this book to be, is I want it to be like a coffee shop conversation where we can just. We can talk about, you know, the basic questions that they need to know. They don't need to know how to do a DCF calculation or a capitalization of earnings. They don't need to worry about what multiples are or anything else they need to know. They just need to have their basic questions answered so they can advise that client properly. Do we need to get an expert involved or do we not? And that's what we've done with this book, and I'm very excited about it and looking forward to. Dave: Yeah. So by the time this episode goes live, I expect your book will be out. And, you know, it's funny, in my niche tax arena of the IC Disc. I always tell our clients and advisors because they always kind of get overwhelmed with the details and the nuances, and they're trying to make sure they remember it. And every year, the same controller has the same question year after year, and they feel bad about it because, like, Dave, I know I asked you about this last year, and I'm asking you again, and I always tell them, I say, hey, look, I deal with this 365 days a year. You deal with it one day a year. And I. And in fact, I just had this call with a client yesterday, and I said, kayla, all you need to know about the IC disc is my phone number. And I'd argue that's all the attorneys need to know. They just need Scott's phone number, because all the other pieces you can take care of. Scott: Absolutely, Absolutely. And that's, you know, that's why I wrote the book, was just to. To be able to be a simple guide, you know, for attorneys to say, what do I do next? What are the questions that I need to. That I've got, and what do I need to do next? Dave: And. Scott: And you're right. Ideally, let me worry about the details, and I can take them through those details and as much, you know, take as much time as they would like. But ultimately, usually when I deal with attorney referral partners, they're just looking for that. That basic guidance. What do we need to do here? What should I look out for? Those types of things. So it's the approach you take with your clients? Yeah. No. Dave: So even though the book is really geared toward the attorney, if you. If the attorney had a client who was, you know, like, say, an engineer, you tend to be detail oriented and is really pushing back. And they say, well, my research says I should be able to get a 70% discount on this. Now, would the book be written in simple enough terms? That attorney could give a copy to a client who's detail oriented to at least cause the client to say, okay, all right, I get it. It's more complicated than I thought. So do you think it's plain language enough for a business owner or somebody, A client of a c. Of an estate attorney? Scott: Yes. The short answer is yes, Dave. I wrote it specifically for attorneys because those are the folks that I talk to the most often, and they're the primary referral partners, the primary point of contact I have when valuation issues come up for a client. But, you know, this book, you know, it would be very helpful for attorneys, CPAs, wealth planners, or the top folks that would find this thing Interesting. And. And it really is written in simple, easy to understand terms. And it covers some of the primary reasons why they might need evaluation. Things like M and A, estate and trust, divorce, business disputes, or IP valuations. And it gives just the basic questions that they need to understand to be conversant enough to know what they need to do next. And I give some very simple but practical examples for most of the issues. Most of the questions that I answer in there, I give simple examples. Here's an example of how this works or how it worked in the past with a client so that they can quickly and easily consume the things that they need to figure out. What are the next steps here? So there. No, no CPA is going to sit down with this book and say, okay, this is going to teach me everything I need to know to do evaluation. It's not meant for those folks. There's plenty of those out there that are written by people, you know, that have every detail in it. Dave: Yeah, textbook type. Scott: Exactly. This is really meant to be just a reference guide, a place to, to guide you so that you can figure out the next steps. Dave: Okay, well, hey. Well, Scott, I think this has been your second time on the podcast. It's been even more fun the second time. As we wrap up here, is there anything I didn't ask you that you wish I had? Scott: I wish you would ask me about my dog, Buddy, my office mate here, but otherwise, I, you know, I. There's nothing that really comes to mind that I could think of, honestly. I think we had a really good discussion about these issues. And, you know, the main thing I would leave you with and your audience with is I enjoy, you know, talking about this. This is, like you said, this is what I do seven days a week. And anytime that somebody has a question about evaluation, especially the state trust and gift valuations, I'm always happy. It's easy to find my contact information on LinkedIn and I'm always happy to have a conversation and, and if I can't help, you know, the person, then I can always point them in the right direction. Happy to be a resource for you, for your clients, for anybody who's got a question. Happy to do that. Dave: And just curious, do you, like, charge for a preliminary conversation like that? Scott: We never charge until the. And unless the client decides to engage us to do the work. So all my conversations are free up front. And, and that's, you know, that's just the way that we do business is we can give you honest information and have that, that, you know, simple conversation with you up front so that you're armed with what you need to make that, well, awesome. Dave: Well, Scott, this has been a lot of fun. Best of luck in the release of your book. I'm looking forward to getting a copy of it. Scott: Thank you, Dave. It's been a pleasure to be on with you again. I appreciate the opportunity. Dave: All right. Hey, you have a great day, buddy. Scott: Thanks.Special Guest: Scott Abels.

Finding what you love doing beats chasing money every time. Today on the IC-DISC Show, we're talking with John Sacco, owner of Sierra International Machinery, a trailblazer in the recycling industry. Starting as an agri-packaging business, John transformed the company into a recycling equipment powerhouse, moving from marketing Italian made machines, to designing their own balers and conveyors, and now offering a comprehensive range of recycling equipment with renowned service quality. He's been a lifelong industry advocate. Serving as past ISRI chairman and creating the "Repurposed" docuseries on Prime Video, a series showcasing how 75% of new American steel comes from recycled materials. Activities that help companies recruit talent by highlighting the environmental benefits of an industry often misunderstood by policymakers and the public. It's a great conversation revealing how critical recycling is for disaster recovery, processing debris, and supplying rebuilding materials. Listen in to hear why John believes finding your passion, as he did at age 59, brings more satisfaction than any bank account.     SHOW HIGHLIGHTS We explore Sierra's transformation from a leader in agri-packaging during the 60s and 70s to a pioneer in recycling machinery, sparked by the introduction of an Italian machine in the 1980s. John discusses the significance of Sierra's involvement with trade associations like ISRI, now REMA, emphasizing the role of advocacy in correcting industry misconceptions and celebrating milestones such as serving as chairman. John and I delve into Sierra's innovative marketing approach, highlighting their docuseries on steel recycling that unexpectedly gained popularity on Prime Video, enhancing the industry's image. He addresses the broader industry challenge of attracting and retaining talent, drawing parallels to Mike Rowe's advocacy for essential yet undervalued jobs. We highlight the environmental advancements in the U.S. steel industry, including its leadership in recycling and the significant role of recycled aluminum in the automotive sector. John shares advice on prioritizing passion over profit, emphasizing personal growth and the rewarding aspects of the journey, including attending industry conferences and personal milestones. He reflects on Sierra's collaborative team effort in expanding product offerings, driven by customer needs and market opportunities, while maintaining a strong reputation and high-quality service.   Contact Details LinkedIn - John Sacco LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About Sierra International Machinery GUEST John SaccoAbout John TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) John: And there's a lot of misconceptions about our industry. So staying involved is, you know, I've done it and that's kind of why I've also done a lot in regards to the docuseries on our industry and stuff like that. Dave: Good morning John. How are you today? John: Doing good. Doing good, that's awesome, not bad. Dave: How are you today Doing good? John: Doing good. That's awesome, not bad. How are? Dave: you doing Dave. That's good, I'm doing great Now are you a? Native of California. John: Yeah, I was born and raised in Bakersfield, California. Dave: Oh, wow, Okay. So did you grow up around the scrap business? John: Well, actually I grew up more in the agri-packaging side of Sierra. We used to have a company called Sierra Bag and we used to supply agri-packaging products. We were at one point the leader in selling bagging and ties to the cotton industry. Years ago in the 60s and 70s, there used to be over 2.2 million bales a year of cotton grown in the San Joaquin Valley and we used to sell the bagging and use bags and make potato bags and onion bags. We had the recycled materials facility but I really wasn't involved with that. I was more involved during the summers as a kid working in the bag plant. Dave: Okay, so how did the transformation then go on your end to where you get more involved in the recycling space. John: Well, it started when my dad had found a machine out of Europe, out of Italy, and he thought that the market in America could use these machines. Which he was right. And at 19, by late 1985, his partner, 42 years, a buddy of his, who he met during World War II, was, he was ready to retire, he had some health issues and he was just ready to call it quits. And so, in early 1986, what he did was sold the Jagger packaging, bought his partner out and had me start marketing the machines. So, not knowing a whole lot about Ferris and non-Ferris, quite frankly, I was forced to learn it kind of on the fly and getting involved with selling the equipment. Dave: Okay, and did you get involved with the company right after you graduated from USC? John: I did. For two years I was on the agri-packaging side, traveling around to potato sheds, onion sheds, selling the products that we had, and then in 85, started going to the cotton gins. Also, we held a at the time a patent on the cotton module which when they harvested cotton in the field they'd make these big well, for lack of a better word a big log of cotton before they sent it into the cotton gin and we had a tarp for it into the cotton gin and we had a tarp for it. So when it if it rained because the harvesting of cotton was late September, early October and so if it rained it could ruin the grade so we had this cotton module cover and we had a patent. So we sold a lot of those throughout America to the cotton industry. Dave: Okay, and then it was shortly after that that you got more involved in the recycling machinery. John: That's correct. Yeah, when my dad sold all the agri-packaging in 86, all of that went away. So that was when he wanted me to market the machines, because I had taken marketing at USC. So I just basically said, hey, market these machines. Dave: That's what I've been doing ever since and there's a little more to it than that because at some point you all started developing your own machinery. Is that correct, that's? John: correct. We you know our clientele base also was in need of two-ram balers for the processing of non-ferrous materials, you know, aluminum, copper, and also in the fiber industry for paper. And so we decided to start building two-ram balers and hired an engineer who was at the time unemployed and got involved and built a plant down in southern Georgia and expanded today. So we finished, we opened up in October of 2008 and building two ram balers and conveyors for the metal side and also the waste sector. So that's grown nicely over the years. Dave: That is great. And then you guys have expanded your product offering. Then beyond that to other aspects, right? John: That's correct. Yeah, so you know, for recycled materials facilities we offer a wide variety of products from 2-ram balers, conveyors, shears, shear balers, portable balers, grapples and material handlers, so it's a wide variety of equipment that can go into a lot of different aspects of the waste sector and the recycled material sector. Dave: Okay, and then at some point, you became involved in the Trade Association. Was it ISRI then, or was that? John: Yeah, it was ISRI back. It was in the late 1990s that I got involved and you know I got involved, I enjoyed and it was fun for me on a personal level and then in two I was elected to be secretary-treasurer of at the time it was ISRI. It's now REMA, the Recycled Materials Association. So I did that stint, you know, as secretary-treasurer and you move up to chair, and I was chairman in 2011, 2012,. But have stayed involved with the Trade Association because I believe in having a strong voice for an industry in the states and in, you know, in the nation's capital. You know policymakers don't really know what we do and there's a lot of misconceptions about our industry. So staying involved is you know there's a lot of misconceptions about our industry. So staying involved is, you know, I've done it and that's kind of why I've also done a lot in regards to the docu-series on our industry and stuff like that. Dave: Okay, I can't believe that it's been 12 years ago. 13 years ago I guess that you were the chair. I think that's when I first met you in San Diego, I think on the aircraft carrier at a social function. John: Yeah, when we met on the aircraft carrier, that was 2010. Excuse me, that was 2000. Yes, it was 2010. And that was the final night party of ISRI at the time on the USS Midway, and at that party I was officially at that moment, the chairman of ISRI. So yeah, as long as it was, it does seem just like yesterday, david, and it was a great party. But yeah, it just seems like yesterday. Yeah, the sound of it is a long time ago. Dave: Wow, yeah, the time does go by. Now I'm curious, as your product line expanded, I'm curious was that more of a case of you just saw an opportunity and that's kind of what drove it, or was it more your customers coming to you saying, hey, we really need help in this area. Would you guys develop something? Or is it a mix of the two? John: Well, it's a little bit of everything. I have a great team here and the people at the time who was on the team, you know, said well, we should get involved with this type of equipment because we have a need for it. You know our customer base asked for it and you know I won't take the credit for it and you know it's I won't take the credit for it because in the end it's a team here at Sierra and you know I have a brother involved who's my partner now, his son, my nephew's involved and so over the years it's just it's about discussing what we can do, how we grow. How do we you know you got to grow your revenue. How do we grow it? And by adding different products into the mix. And then the manufacturer out of Italy, the Tabarelli family, they have a wide, they had the material handler. So we just started just a couple years ago starting to really, you know, push into that market and you know we'll gain our traction. It takes a little time but it's a team effort here and it's just a lot of people have. You know my general sales manager has been with us since 1988. And you know he has a lot of great ideas as well. So, as a team, we've worked together to develop the products we needed to come into the market. And what's really unique is when you deal with our company. There's, like I say, a wide variety of equipment that you can handle or you can purchase from Sierra and that we service. So we have the ability to sell a lot of different machines, yet we have the ability to service each and every one of those machines with the same intensity. So it's been good. Dave: No, that's excellent. With the same intensity, so it's been good. No, that's excellent. Do you? Is it that aspect of that ability to you know service, all that equipment? Is that one of the main reasons your clients choose you? What's the feedback you receive from your customers, as far as you know why they end up choosing you? John: Well, there's a lot of reasons. We have built, you know, a really good reputation and we work on it every day to improve. In our service department we carry the parts and we have the technicians, but we also have a very high quality piece of equipment. Series repurposed season one, season two really tells the story of our industry and, as the former chairman of israel, now rima, I keep advocating for the industry with what I do with our social media and you know, when you have two seasons on prime video, people notice that. So there's a lot of things involved. We have good people, we try to do the right thing at all times and that's our motto the Sierra way is the right way. It's not fancy. So I think there's a lot of things that we do that enhance our image and you know people like to do business with us because of all the above. You know, is it just one thing? You know, one customer may like the service, one customer may like our advocacy, which I've heard. A lot of people like our equipment per se, and there's just a lot of things that go into it. So I think it's multifaceted, dave, and it's just not one item. We try to just try to build everything we do, improve our marketing, our brand, improve our service. You know that's our motto is to try to get better every day. We don't want to be the best, we just want to be better, because being better is a journey that every day, if you come in the office and you say how can we be better, you don't rest on what you did yesterday. So it's, you know, we got a good culture, we got great people. You know our technicians also are a great face to the company, our salespeople as well. So I think it's just a multitude of things. Dave: Well, that's an insightful answer. I appreciate that. As far as that docuseries, I've always been curious what's the story behind that? Did you just wake up one day and say you know what I want to be on TV, or was it a little different than that? John: Oh, it's a lot different than that. Interesting how it all came about. A gentleman I've worked with Darren Doan for over a decade on creating content and stuff we've done together. We had this idea back I don't know 22, early 22, to do a thing called the Sierra Summit. We were going to bring in Mike Rowe and the top 100 metal processors in America have this big event and the Ukraine war broke out and what happened with that is a lot of processed steel out of Europe was handled through in Ukraine and our supplier of the Shears, portable balers, had a supply chain issue plus a pricing increase. That was dramatic. And so we decided well, we better keep our powder dry and not spend this money for the summit. And so about a month later things you know, the steel market for europe started settling, and I don't know. I just had this idea of doing this docuseries on steel making being made from recycled steel and start changing the narrative, because I got tired of hearing the word junk, waste, trash. And I think that was one of the biggest obstacles to our industry. And I don't know, I've been in front of the camera with my social media posts, so being in front of a camera didn't bother me. But telling the story of a steel mill using recycled steel as the raw materials coming from out facilities like our own here at Sierra was a fun thing. So I thought, well, you know, we could put our equipment in this, we can tell the story. We're going to advocate for the industry, we can get this out there. I never had any intention of getting it out to Prime Video. My whole intention was to tell a fun story in a cinematic way that people would like and find entertaining and educational. And it turned out to be just that. And so we did season two, where we actually what we learned from season one. So then we weren't focused on the output of rebar at cmc and the construction projects needing rebar, so we showed a lot of projects that had rebar. And where did the rebar come from? So you backtrack it all into the recycled materials and so, uh, it just kind of grew from that. I don't mind being in front of a camera, you know, wanting to be in front of a camera or not minding it, or I think are two different things, but the fact is that I enjoy creating the content. It's fun for me to get into a steel mill. It's fun to tell the story, to talk to people and you, you know, when I released the series, there's so many people who've used it to show their families what they do. You know there's so many people who don't understand what our industry is about. And then you got schools and you know companies using it, even like SAB they were season one. They used it for recruiting and safety and telling their story and CMC is the same as well as telling their story of how their steel mill is really the foundation of infrastructure, because you have to start with rebar and any hospital and school and manufacturing plant. You've got to start with rebar in any hospital and school and manufacturing plant and you know you got to start with rebar and rebar comes from recycled metal, so it's a good story and they've been able to educate people to draw, you know, to attract and retain talent. Our industry isn't the sexiest, so it's shed a light on our industry that our industry actually is doing more to reduce CO2 emissions than any other industry in the world today and it attracts people who want to do something good for the mother earth and have a good paying job at the same time. Dave: That's awesome. Did that surprise you when, like CMC and some other companies, use that as like a recruiting and education of themselves? John: No, that was part of my sales pitch to them. Dave: Okay, okay. John: I knew, for whatever reason, why I knew that our industry has we have an image problem this I know, and it was still there. And attracting and retaining talent is a struggle, and it's not just our industry. If you talk to any facility, any company in America today, they all have the same issues. You know, I've just finished filming at the Toyota Motor Plant in Troy, missouri, where they make cylinder heads and their number one issue is attracting talent in the mechanics. They can't find them. And steel mills same thing. Every industry in America is struggling to find talent, and so I know that if you don't tell your story, if you don't make your company look cool, who wants to come to work for you? Dave: Yeah yeah, it seems like Mike Rowe is kind of on a similar mission from a little different perspective, really trying to encourage, you know, more people to come into the trades. John: Well, mike Rowe, yes, and you know, look, mike Rowe is an incredibly successful human being and you know, he has to show. You know, dirty jobs and I think kind of that's what we are. We're dirty jobs but we're networked. You know, I don't say we're essential. Essential is a COVID word that the government used to pick winners and losers. You know, you go to the hospital, david. Do they take your essential science or do they take your vital science? Sure, they take your vital science, right. So our industry is vital for the health of the nation. You don't build a hospital with us, right? You know, if you build a hospital, expand a hospital, you got to start where, on the ground floor, you have to start with the foundation, and that starts with rebar that starts. That comes from our industry. You want to build a school? Same thing. You want to build a highway. You know the steel used in the highway. You know, when you think this, 75% of all new steel in America is made from recycled steel Three quarters, that is a monstrous percentage and it's only growing. And you know another thing that is vital to national security is a vibrant steel industry. Okay, you don't build Navy ships with plastic. You don't build a military without steel, right? So you better have a very vibrant and strong steel industry, at the same time saying that America's steel industry is the cleanest steel industry in all the world. Over 75% of our steel mills are EAS electric arc furnace steel mills that use recycled steel to make new steel. Well, why is that important One? We're producing the steel a country needs for our infrastructure, for our military, healthcare, education and our farming and food industry. We also do it in the cleanest way, because recycled steel at EAF reduces CO2 emissions in the 60 percentile. And now that there's more micro mills coming online, more straight line casting of products and steel mills, with the new mills coming online, which reduce the energy consumption and reheating and continuous casting, so you're actually starting to see the numbers improve versus the BOF furnaces that you see that are heavy in China and India and Russia and Europe, south America yes, there are new EAFs going to those parts of the world, but their main steel production comes from the integrated steel mill that uses coking coal and iron ore, which is far greater pollutant, gives us far greater CO2 emissions. So not only is our steel industry vibrant in the United States, we are the cleanest in all the world. So we really are leading the way and I think people. That's kind of why I want to tell the story because people don't. You know we did man on the streets. You know you get me started on this, but you know people don't know steel's the most recycled item in America today. People don't even know what a steel mill is. They don't even know where new steel comes from. You drive a car. You don't have any idea. The majority of the metal in that car comes from recycled steel or recycled aluminum, for that matter. So people don't know this. So it's been kind of fun telling the story with Repurpose and we're getting ready to. We just finished filming everything we need for season three of repurpose. It's going to be on aluminum recycled aluminum and our focus will be on driving the auto industry okay, because you know this, david, that you cannot build an aluminum motor block transmission housing or casings differential casings with virgin aluminum I did not know that. Dave: And it has to be made from recycled aluminum. John: So see this. People don't know this and why is that? because of the alloys, the strength of the material. To take virgin aluminum and then make all, put in all the additives to make the motor block the strength, you, um, you can't do it. So they use recycled aluminum, and you know toyota is a big user. And also recycled aluminum, you know it goes into the light weighting of um automobiles, which gives you much greater miles per gallon and you know produces co2. So again, people don't know this and so I'm enjoying telling the story and getting it out there. Dave: I can tell you have a real passion for the education and helping change or improve the image of the whole industry. John: Well, I think that our policymakers, like in California, we have a real problem in the state of California the automobile shredder they want to deem it hazardous waste facilities and that's just not fair. It's not accurate to recycle for recycling in its own right, but it's hugely detrimental to the raw material supply chain for our industry here in america. That makes all these products that we need. You know we talk about when you take it in the life of an automobile, what do you do with it? And the end of life of an automobile. When you shred it, you gain the, the steel, the aluminum, the copper, stainless and plastics. And what do you do with that? You recycle it and that gets repurposed into new steel, new aluminum, new copper products, new stainless, and it's so. You know. It's just detrimental because our image, because I'll guarantee you, if you walk the halls in Sacramento and you told people, do you know the car you drive that has aluminum transmission housing, that has the aluminum motor block can't be made with virgin aluminum, they wouldn't know that. And this is part of the education process and I think once people know more about what our industry is, they'll realize how vital we are and that's really been a lot of fun for me and you know season three, as we're getting ready to do it gonna use. You know our facility here in bakersville is. You know where we process aluminum? We bail it in the bailers we make. And it's a lot of fun to be able to say the bailers we sell, that process that bail aluminum, are made from steel that comes from recycled steel from ssab. That we did in season one. So it really shows the circularity of our industry and what real sustainability really is. You know it's a buzzword and people, quite frankly, just have no clue what it really means. So I'm trying to bring out the real identity of our industry and try to really change the narrative because it needs to be changed. Once we were heroes during world war ii by supplying the mills with all the metals they needed to fight tyranny, and now we're the bad guys. Dave: Um, that's, we got to get back to being the good guys again I agree, could I mean I, you know just general building anything in California has become more challenging and regulatorily limited. Do you think somebody could even put in like a new shredder operation today, or would it just take? Them Wouldn't even be able to do it Because it's considered hazardous waste Is this considered hazardous waste? John: Yeah well, it's just the process. Nobody, you know, it's just a really crazy process, but you know you reminded me of something. So we have these just absolutely horrific, devastating fires in LA right, and we saw the whole Pacific Palisades and Altadena, the Pasadena area just devastated. What industry is going to rebuild those neighborhoods? Dave: Yeah, the steel industry. John: Well, so when you clean up these neighborhoods and we have a new piece of equipment down there processing the metals and sending it down to a company at Long Beach to process, it's our industry that's going to rebuild these neighborhoods. We're cleaning it up because what's what is left after the fires? Metal products, and all these metal products are being processed and going to be repurposed and sent to mills, steel mills, aluminum copper foundries, and all this new material that they're making from that raw material is what's going to go into rebuilding these neighborhoods. And you can't rebuild a neighborhood without us because we're the raw material suppliers for all that stuff that goes into the housing from the rebar, from the foundation, steel stuff. Now you're going to see a lot more steel being used in the manual in the building of houses in this area because of the fire. What about appliances? You don't build appliances with plastic. Easy-bake ovens aren't how you build refrigerators and ovens and toasters and coffee pots. And all the copper that's going to go into the electrification of these neighborhoods will have 36% recycled copper content into it. All the window panes that'll have aluminum windows and brass, you know, forurposing in it, getting into the consumers to make new products so you can rebuild, wow that's. I haven't thought about that for a second. Dave: Yeah. John: You know. And so the policymakers need to hear this. They need to understand that this is what we do. They need to understand this the most vital. Because, let's say, we don't exist in California. Well, what would you do with all that material? Can't ship it to China. China doesn't take containers of steel anymore. They don't buy bulk loads of steel anymore from the West Coast of the United States. They don't. That's just a misnomer. People, oh, you're sitting in China. They don't, that's just a misnomer. People, oh, you're sitting in China. No, we're not. And people think that, again, it's the ignorance Not calling people ignorant in a negative way. They just don't understand what we do. They don't understand where our materials are going, and I like to say CO2 emissions have no borders. So if Our materials are exported to an EAF steel mill somewhere maybe Malaysia, vietnam, korea, japan, if you will Well, our materials are also going into EAF. So what is that doing? It's reducing CO2 emissions. So our raw materials, be it used here in the US or be it used anywhere in the world, is actually helping to reduce the CO2 emissions in the world. Sure, actually helping to reduce the CO2 emissions in the world? Sure, you know, aluminum reduces CO2 emissions and energy consumption in the 90 percentile, copper's in the 80 percentile. You tell me an industry that's doing that today. You can't the recycled material industry. It's our raw materials that we process. So this is why this narrative, this is why these type of conversations, hopefully are heard by people who will now understand. Wait a minute, I've got this industry all wrong. Dave: Yeah, yeah. No, that's your your passion for trying to educate as many people as possible. It really shows through and you can see it really. It really drives you, so I appreciate it. Well, I can't wait to see season three. I can't believe how the time has flown by. Just wrapping up, I have just three remaining questions. John: Yes, sir. Dave: One is in your role with Sierra. What gives you the most satisfaction and enjoyment? John: Great question. Well, I think we have some great people here and I enjoy the people in the company I've seen in our, for instance. This is an example only and this is, you know, this could be had in every department, but we just have some really high quality people who really are fighting for the same cause. You know fighting, I call it fighting for the same right. And you know I get great satisfaction seeing these young kids who are growing. You know are technicians, for instance, who are growing, who've committed themselves to this culture and you see them growing and they're growing in their abilities and they're growing in their pay scales and you see their cooperative nature and how nature and how they have the can-do spirit. That gives me great pleasure. I enjoy doing this content as well. This gives me great pleasure making the REAP series. So those are my answers to that. Dave: That's great. That's not surprising. So the second of the three is imagine if you had a time machine and you could go back and give some advice to the 25-year-old John. What advice might you give with the benefit of hindsight? John: look, I didn't find what I really loved doing until I was about 59 years old. I'm 63, okay, so find what you love doing, that that beats money all day long. Yeah, and the money I just think, chasing money. You know it's great. You know I mean sure it's. You know I've done well, I'm not gonna begrudge it. But I think the one who smiles and is happiest wins the game of life, not the one with the biggest bank account. I look at Warren Buffett a guy worth just oodles and oodles. I've never seen that dude smile. He is just a grumpy old man. That's my perception of him, my point. And maybe he is a gregarious guy in person, but God, his persona is just grumpy. And my point to you is money doesn't buy happiness. Sure, it makes misery more tolerable, as my dad used to say. But I would tell a 25-year-old me stop chasing money and find happiness through what you love doing. Dave: A great answer. So the last question is is there anything that we did not discuss today that you wish we had? John: Well, no, I you know, I think, david, you know your, your company, with what you do, with your IT desk and helping with consulting. You know that's important. You know there's so many facets of our industry that people can improve upon, and I guess what we didn't talk on are areas in which how can an individual who sees this and is in the recycled materials industry capitalize on stuff that they don't know exists and what you do? I mean, I get what you do and so how do people really, where do they go to learn more about this industry and how they can improve their business? You know there's a lot of things that can be done. You got to be careful how you say this, because you know taxes are burdensome, especially when you live here in California. How can you have a legitimate business concern that can reduce your taxes legally? Because you know avoiding taxes is one thing, evading is illegal. You go to jail for evading taxes, and so you know it's hard because I'm not an accountant and I don't understand the whole time. But there's so much more, I think, for people to learn about our industry and I think, david, with what you're doing, with your setting up companies that are exporters, to understand the benefit of the laws that are out there for companies that export. People need to learn more about that, and I think that's you know. I wish I could have touched more on it. I don't know it like you do, but it is something that I think that's what I would say is to help people learn. There's other avenues to make your business grow and save some of your money, and when you save legally on taxes, you're saving money, so you can invest that in your company. Dave: No, I appreciate you mentioning that. And you know, my most satisfying part of my role is helping our entrepreneurial clients, you know, increase their after-tax income. It's really just. It's such a privilege to be, you know, kind of in the stands watching these amazing entrepreneurs do their magic. And you know, we have scrap metal clients who have, you know, the last decade have, you know, increased their business 10X. And I'm not saying that's because of the IC disc, it probably has little to do with it, but it's just a great. It's just very enjoyable to see the best and the brightest entrepreneurs, just, you know, do their magic. So that's why I love, why I'll be at the REMA conference in May. I can't spend enough time with those people. It's a blast. Well, john, thank you again for your time and I look forward to seeing you in San Diego in a couple of months. John: I presume, yes, sir, I'll be there. I'll be coming for my son's graduation at TCU, so I'll arrive. I'll miss some of the governance you know, as a former chair you're always involved with that but I'll be there for the show and I'll have my. My son is will be a graduate and I will have no more kids going to school. Dave: That's awesome. Well, that's also a landmark event. Well, hey, john, thank you again for your time. I really appreciate it, Thank you. Special Guest: John Sacco.

In this episode of the IC-DISC show, I speak with Tim Loney about his transition from airline industry professional to IT services entrepreneur. He shares his path from working at Continental Airlines through major mergers to establishing Solutions Information Systems, explaining how his experience with severance packages motivated his shift into entrepreneurship. We discuss the importance of business continuity planning, particularly for companies in hurricane-prone areas. Tim tells me about a Houston client whose facilities experienced severe flooding, highlighting how proper data recovery systems made a crucial difference in their ability to resume operations. Managing sensitive data is a key topic in our conversation, as Tim's company works with high-net-worth families, family office sectors, as well as companies in a variety of industries. He explains how word-of-mouth referrals have helped build trust with these clients who require careful handling of confidential information. The conversation turns to Tim's approach to business acquisition, where he focuses on purchasing IT firms from retiring owners. He describes his method of maintaining and growing these businesses post-purchase while sharing insights about how remote management tools have transformed IT services over the past 35 years.     SHOW HIGHLIGHTS I discussed Tim's career evolution from working in the airline industry with Continental Airlines and American Express to establishing his own IT services firm, Solutions Information Systems, in Houston, Texas. Tim shared insights on how his managed IT services company has established a national presence by utilizing robust remote management tools and enterprise-class processes. We explored the importance of business continuity and rapid data recovery, highlighted by a story of a Houston-based company that faced severe flooding and required effective disaster recovery solutions. Tim's firm specializes in managing sensitive data for high-income families in construction and family office sectors, emphasizing the importance of trust and credibility built through word-of-mouth referrals. We discussed Tim's strategy for acquiring small businesses from retiring owners, focusing on enhancing the value of these businesses post-acquisition to ensure continued growth. Tim reflected on his entrepreneurial journey from modest beginnings, emphasizing the significance of diversifying income sources and the evolving importance of data protection in the digital age. The episode concluded with an exploration of the evolution of office communication over the last 35 years, showcasing the technological advancements that have redefined the IT industry.   Contact Details LinkedIn- Tim Loney LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About Solutions Informations Systems GUEST Tim LoneyAbout Tim TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hey, good afternoon, Tim. Welcome to the podcast. Tim: Hi, Dave, good to see you. Dave: So where are you calling in from today? What part of the world are you in? Tim: I'm in Houston, Texas, just north of Houston, in the Tomball area. Dave: Okay. Tim: Up in our corporate headquarters for the company. Dave: Okay, and now are you a native Houstonian. Tim: I am not. I'm not a native Houstonian. I should be probably classified as a native Houstonian because I've been here for about 35 years or more. Dave: Okay. Tim: But my background is I migrated from Canada the day before my 21st birthday. Dave: Oh, you did. Tim: Yeah, I became a permanent resident here in the United States. And what caused you to want to do that? The economy was pretty bad in Canada at that time and I was working for a commercial airline that had gone through a severance package and they released me with my severance package and I said you know, maybe I should try another country, not just a job, but maybe another country. Dave: Okay, so when you came to Houston then did you stay in the airline? Tim: business I did. I worked for one of the large international airlines called Continental Airlines at the time, which has since been acquired by United Airlines. Dave: You know, to this day I can still tell a legacy Continental flight crew from a legacy United flight crew. Very different cultures, very different cultures, or, as I say, the Continental folks are nice and the United folks are not so nice. Tim: Correct, yeah, I was there during the heavy competition years between Continental Airlines and United. I was actually there in the process with Continental Airlines during a very large merger and acquisition of multiple carriers. We acquired Frontier, people Express and New York Air and put them all under the umbrella of Continental Airlines. So I was there during those years. Dave: Okay, so were you there in the late 90s. So were you there in the late 90s. Tim: I was there from 1985 to 1990. Dave: Okay, yeah, I was only asking because I'd worked at an executive search firm in the late 90s and we worked with Continental during their like, go forward initiative or move forward initiative. Tim: Yep the go forward plan with Gordon Blithoon. He was Yep. Dave: Yep, that was it. So then you left the airline business. What did you decide to go do then? Tim: So I left the airline business and I went to work for one of the largest credit card companies in the world called American Express. Dave: Okay, I think I've heard of them. Tim: Yep and because I had a lot of automation knowledge of how the airlines work. From an automation standpoint, American Express was interested in me and understanding the automation behind the airlines and travel agency systems and they brought me in to be a systems person for the airlines to help them in kind of standardizing a lot of procedures within American Express. Dave: Okay, well, that sounds like a fun opportunity. Tim: Yeah, very rewarding, very educational. I learned so much during my term at American Express. Dave: Okay, but you decided that at some point you wanted to unfurl your wings and see what you could do on your own. Is that right? Tim: unfurl your wings and see what you could do on your own. Is that right? Yeah, you know now that I look back at it. You know I was. I grew up in a family where you were encouraged to go work for a large organization and a big fortune 100 firm, and through your entire life, and leave with a gold Rolex watch and have a great retirement plan. Dave: Yeah. Tim: But as I followed that path, I found myself continuing to get severance packages over and in my experience with the Fortune 100s I received three or four severance packages and those packages kind of educated me on that. It was maybe not the right gig for me and, you know, I was smart enough to be able to exit out of the Fortune 100s and do something on my own, and that's when I decided to start my organization. Dave: Okay, and what's your company called? Tim: So my company is Solutions Information Systems Solutions IS to abbreviate it and we are a managed service provider of IT services across the United States, managing about 175 customers across the US oh wow. Dave: That's interesting. I would have thought you'd have your clients would all be in the Houston area. I guess this newfangled internet thing lets you serve clients remotely. Is that, I guess, how it works? Tim: Yeah, yeah, and we can talk a little bit about what makes us so successful, but the ability to manage and monitor and remediate issues remotely has come a long ways over the years that I've been in IT. Now it's pretty much if you can't do that, why are you in this industry, right? So yeah, and you know it's a lot of like the entire work from home program that the whole world has kind of moved to. We have that ability to do exactly all of that stuff, not only from our corporate headquarters, but remotely as well. If one of our employees needs to work from home, they can do remotely as well. If one of our employees needs to work from home, they can do that as well. So it requires a massive tool set, and I'll refer probably to our tool set a lot, because that's what makes us successful, right Is the tool set that I've been able to put together and build a toolbox full of tools to be able to manage, secure, maintain these infrastructures that we're responsible for. Dave: Well. Tim: I thought IT service firms were. Dave: I thought that was a commodity service. I thought they're all the same. Tim: Oh no, there's quite a bit of difference in how these managed service providers operate and I'll tell you, I would consider us probably in the top 100 nationally and probably the top three in our region of service providers, and the reason I kind of give us that grade and that's a grade that I've given us is that we've been at this for 25 years. I started this practice 25 years ago. I started this practice 25 years ago and over those 25 years I not only brought in enterprise class processes and procedures from my 10 years at American Express, but I've improved upon those processes and procedures over those 25 years. Dave: And we continue to improve on those processes. Okay. Well, what? Yeah, I'm guessing that you're. The clients tend to stay with you for a pretty long time. Is that like until they sell or go out of business or some significant event occurs? Absolutely. Tim: Yeah, and that and that's the type of client that we want to have in our portfolio, right? This is not a consumable product that you go and buy once and go away this is a partnership with our customers. Dave: It really is. Tim: You have to think about the IT infrastructure of any business out there. It's number one, a foundational piece of the business, and it is an instrumental piece in continuing to do business right. A lot of conversations I have are around data protection and security, and that's a lot of what we do right Is how do we protect the data that the customer has and how do we make sure that it remains secure and that nobody compromises that data or extracts that data or modifies that data that's on their infrastructure. Dave: Okay, and I'm guessing you're not trying to be the low-cost provider. Tim: We are not the low-cost provider. I wouldn't say we're the most expensive organization out there, but we are in the higher side, and the reason that we're the higher side is we bring a huge value to an organization. There is a lot of components within the IT support model that our lower competitors don't provide or don't understand, and those are the weaknesses within an organization that will cost them considerable damage to an organization if they get exposed right. Dave: Yeah. Tim: And then kind of go through those if you want to cover some of that stuff. Like let's just give an example of a business continuity plan right. If a company doesn't have a business continuity plan, that should be something that they should have in place, and they should have worked with their IT service provider or internal IT team to make sure that they've got a business continuity plan. If they don't, when an event happens, it's a total dumpster fire right, because they don't know what to do and they're very disorganized and it takes them an extremely long time to be able to recover, if they recover at all. So that's one example. Another example is compliance. There's a lot of compliance that's out there and that compliance is in place for a reason. Compliance is in there because somehow something got compromised and this is a compliance requirement that you now have to be in compliance with. It may be an access control compliance thing. It might be a reporting compliance to a legal agency. Dave: So talk to me about the first thing you refer to as the disaster recovery plan or the disaster recovery and business continuity. Okay, so my listeners love stories, so could you give me an example, like of one of your clients you know anonymously, that maybe went through a situation or maybe a company who was not a client but after they had an issue they hired. You guys give us a sense of like the elements of a really good you know continuity plan. Tim: Sure. So I'll give you an example. I had a neighbor that was in my neighborhood that you know. We would see each other at the neighborhood community pool. Our kids would play together, you know weren't real close to them. But you know you get into the conversation of having hey, what do you do by? The way, and you know, I told him I ran a managed service provider, an IT service firm, and we manage customer networks and we keep them secure. Dave: And he goes oh, okay, okay, Well, we got a guy. Tim: We got a guy he's good, he's been with me for five years. At that point, and you know, and wow, that's great. Well, if we need anything we'll call you, right, the conversation went away and that was about 15 years later. So the guy had been working for him for 20 years managing his stuff, managing his infrastructure, managing his backups, making sure again going back to data protection and security making sure that everything was safe and secure and we could recover it. Well, lo and behold, 20 years later he calls me up it. Well, lo and behold, 20 years later he calls me up, not him, but his wife calls me up, and his wife, you know, worked in the business for a period of time but it exited out. She called me up. She said by the way, I still have your cell phone number. I'm wondering if you're still doing IT, was their question. Dave: Okay. Tim: And I returned back and I said absolutely, I'm still doing IT. What's going on? She goes well. He was afraid to call you because he's embarrassed and we were in a very bad situation. This is a second generation builder supply company, probably doing annual revenue about $10 to $15 million in annual revenue. Dave: I said OK, what's going on? Tim: And she goes. Well, we've been ransomed and our data has been held for ransom and we don't know what to do. And our IT guy doesn't know what to do and he is really stressed out. And so the next step was is like well, I can jump in and I can help you. Let me know if you need my assistance. But these type of scenarios we've worked with before and we know how to be able to either negotiate with the criminals and negotiate the ransom to a point where you can actually pay it. If that's your only option, that's your worst option. But if we can recover your data from some sort of backup, we can go through the recovery process. Kind of summarize it we spent that particular client was not a client at the time and so they didn't have any of our backup or recovery procedures in place. They didn't have any kind of policy in place. They didn't have retention policies, they didn't have off-site backups. They had a lot of things. They didn't have offsite backups. They had a lot of things that were missing in that internal IT person's procedure. So what happened was is we came in and we immediately got on site and determined that they were using tape backup, and this is like way tape backup had expired like a long time ago. They had tape backup, they had ancient equipment, it was really. They obviously had put no money investment into their IT. Okay, the recovery for that client was about a week and a half and we were able to recover about 90% of their data. So it comes down to what we call RTO or recovery time objective. The recovery time objective is how long will it take us to recover your network based on our backup and recovery procedures? That particular customer we were able to get back up. Like I said, it was an extended period of time that they were out and they weren't able to do stuff. They were writing sales orders on paper and going back to a paper process. So they could continue their business, but we did get them back up and operational. We got them recovered and they became a customer and today we run very successful trials of the recovery system, as well as continue to make sure that their data is protected and secure. Dave: Did they end up paying the ransom they? Did not Because you got them close enough to 100%. Tim: We got them close enough where they had physical paper backup of the information that they were able to put back into the system. Dave: Okay, now help me understand the other end of that spectrum with somebody who was a current client that something like that happened to, and what was the difference as far as how long it took before you had them up and running? Tim: Well, you know, our current clients knock on wood have not experienced that. Dave: Because they've got a tighter IT infrastructure. Tim: Right, we've got the security and controls and again going back to the tool set to detect and have early detection of these type of events before they happen. So we have the security operations center that is constantly monitoring the security of the networks and the access to the networks and they look for anything that's kind of out of order. Dave: When something's out of order. Tim: then we identify it. We either isolate that system or we investigate it further and see is this a normal procedure that should be going or not? A normal procedure and a lot of this stuff is becoming part of AI now. Part of the AI capabilities is to be able to identify those things very early and stop them before they get any further into the network. So prevention is obviously a whole lot better than remediation. Right and that's what companies hire us to do is to prevent anything like that, a catastrophic event, from happening. Dave: Okay. Well, what about something that's more like a hurricane hits and wipes out their building? I assume you've had some kind of like natural disaster kind of thing where you've had to enact a continuity plan. Tim: Yep, yep, yep, absolutely so. Hurricanes here in the Gulf Coast of Texas, with the Gulf Coast of Texas being in a hurricane zone, we've had customers that their facilities have gone underwater. So one particular customer was on the south side of Houston and their facility went about five feet underwater. They, interestingly enough, had the server on a brick, thinking it was high enough. Well, it wasn't quite high enough, it was a foot off the ground, but it needed to be five feet off the ground. So that server went underwater and it was on when it went underwater. So it shorted out a lot of the components on the server, in which case, you know, they were like we don't know what to do In that scenario. We actually brought the hardware to our facility and we found out what component had failed and we replaced that component on the system and we were able to recover that system oh, wow, okay yeah, that's what we always want to do, is we want to try to use local recovery as much as possible just because of bandwidth or um, no, because of the time it takes to get the data transferred over from a replication process right. Gotcha If you're dealing with terabytes of data. You have to transfer that terabytes of data from either our data center facility or a cloud infrastructure, and that can be time consuming. That can be hours, if not days, depending upon the data. Okay, so some great stories. I mean, obviously we've had events happen. It's not uncommon for events to happen, but how we handle those events and how quickly we can recover from them is critical to a business to continue business for our customers and they can get back to business and be doing what they're doing selling things, manufacturing things, distributing things, whatever it is Okay. Dave: And are there any particular industries that you have, like you know, kind of particular expertise in where you know you would say that people in this industry might look out to you for yeah? Tim: There is. We're a very horizontal organization so we do have multiple industries that we play in. So we do play in the construction industry A lot of construction firms are in our portfolio, but also kind of an area where we've proven to have not only expertise in what we do but also the trust factor is in family offices. Dave: Oh, really Okay. Tim: Yeah, either high income families or ultra high income families. Obviously the privacy of those organizations, the privacy of the families, absolutely critical, and then the data that they're working with has high confidentiality. So, you know again, if that information was to leak out of the network or leak out of the system, then it would be a serious issue. So we've dealt with some of the highest wealth families in the world, oh interesting. Yep Obviously can't name them, but some brands that you would know, some organizations that you would know. It's amazing when I look at our portfolio, the amount of business like when I'm driving around town and I see companies around town and I'm like been in that building, worked in that customer, handled that particular customer, things like that. So yeah, you know, it's our high income or ultra high income. Families are probably a good percentage of our business. Okay, because they have multiple entities that we can support, consistent across all of those entities. So it's very standardized the way we do our business and very proceduralized so it makes it easy for them to understand. They get a quarterly report that provides them with the details and data that they know what we did for them previously and then we also forecast with a forecasting budget in the October November timeframe to provide them with a forecast so they can budget for their future IT needs and know what they're going to need replaced in the future. Dave: Okay, so was this just a case? You happened to stumble across, you know one of these family offices and then you know they run in the same circles and we're just got around that you guys were the go-to folks. Tim: I will say it has helped right In the. You know, in that particular market referrals are a huge thing. Our first family office we did stumble across. We didn't know we were working with an entity, one of their businesses, and then we, you know, they introduced us to another piece of their business and then they introduced us to the family office. You know we're having troubles with, you know, my buddy, my other firm over here, and we'd like you to kind of help in that area. So that expanded out quite a bit. And you know, again, there couldn't be. Our organization has to be the most trusted organization as a vendor that any company is going to hire, right? Sure, because you have to think about the access to the data that we have. We have access to absolutely everything. We're the administrator of your network, right? We have access to your email account. We have access to your email account. We have access to your employees' email accounts. We have access to your data, your financial data, your payroll data, your bonus data, all of the data that's out there on the network we have full access to. So you have to trust our team to the utmost in order to keep that information private, and I always approach a customer with. We're here responsible to secure and maintain that data. We're not here to look at what that data is. We don't know what that data is. Okay. Dave: Well, that's interesting here. I thought I figured you picked up that first client when you were on your mega yacht at the Cannes Film Festival. It didn't work that way. Tim: Huh, no it didn't work that way. No, it didn't work that way. I don't have a mega yacht and I wasn't at the festival, so okay, okay, yeah, not that I don't enjoy that stuff. I do have a house over at tpc, sawgrass and the players club and I do enjoy the country club life. You know I probably have the least expensive house in the neighborhood but I do enjoy the life. Dave: So nice, nice, I like it. So what do your clients tell you that makes your firm unique, like folks that have moved from another firm to yours, then they've been with you a while and I imagine you'll have a conversation hey, how's it going from your end? Are we meeting your expectations? I imagine you have conversations like that. What are they? What are? Are there any common themes? When they end up comparing you to the prior provider, they had, or how does that go? Tim: Yeah, there's a couple of scenarios there on why customers come to us and leave their current service provider right. One of the biggest things that I found with a customer that may be using a smaller service provider is they are really good at the tech stuff. They're not good at the business or the accounting side of the business, sure. So there's a delay in billing or an inaccuracy in billing and it's all of a sudden they get a stack of invoices three months later for work that was performed that they have no idea whether it got performed or what, and so there's a huge problem with the office operations of those particular service providers. So there's a pain point there and they're like I'm done, they come to me and they go, I'm done, this guy doesn't bill me. And then he bills me all at once, and then I got to try and back that information back into my financials and it totally screws up my forecast and my monthly reporting. So that's one reason that customers come to us. The other one is they don't get a response or the response is like unpredictable. So when they call in, they may get the guy right away, they may get the person like return their call the next day or three days later, so response time is really huge. I have a service desk here that is operated 24 hours a day, so our first level response is within minutes. So if you call my office, you'll get a response within minutes. If not on the first ring, it'll probably be the second or third ring. Dave: Oh, wow. Tim: Yeah, very rarely does any of our calls sit on hold or back up in the queue, so that's one way that customers come to us. The other way that customers come to us is that we have acquired eight other companies in the past 25 years. Dave: Oh, wow. Tim: Yeah, we completed our last acquisition in 2024. And we've gone out and found other service providers that may be struggling. They may not have the right business acumen to be able to run the business, so they're either marginally making money or they're losing money because they don't have the standard operating procedures that we have in place and the true business acumen to be able to run the service as a company. They've got customers, they're doing the work, they're getting paid, but they're not profitable. So we end up with firms like that that have come in through acquisitions. Dave: So yeah, I can see that and that's probably where your American Express background was helpful. Right Because you've had exposure to, you know, enterprise grade operations billing HR. Right operations billing HR right To where? Because American Express strikes me as just a well-run, well-oiled machine? Tim: Absolutely yeah, and I will say yeah, I will give them credit for that. You know it was a great run over there for 10 years and I learned not only about you know my job role and continuing to build on my experience in my job role, but how a company operates from a branding perspective, in branding your organization and keeping that brand consistent, but also in standard operating procedures and standardized deployment of systems. Right. I always refer back to not only my American Express days but the Southwest Airline days of standardization. If you can standardize the particular piece of your business that you're running, then it makes it so much easier. So we have standard software applications that we put out from a security tool set. We have standard equipment that we sell out to our customers, all on the Dell platform. My team is trained on the Dell hardware. They're trained on the tools that we use. The security tools, the management tools and all of those things integrate together to make a successful business. Dave: And again it goes back to enterprise level policies and procedures and way things that are, you know, repeating things that are successful you know, repeating things that are successful, okay Well, it sounds like like the first two parts of your success just seem mind blowing to me how you thought of this. But answer the phone when clients call and invoice timely Wow, I mean that's, that's quite a that's quite as. I mean I can't believe, to be honest, that you shared that secret sauce with me. I mean, my goodness, I mean that's. If you're not careful, there'll be other companies will start answering the phone and invoicing timely with that, you know inside knowledge. Tim: Yeah, I hope that we can improve the rest of the service providers out there, right. Dave: Sure. Tim: Competition is good. I like competition. It keeps us going. It gives us something to work towards as well. Dave: Yeah, so you talked a bit about some of the acquisitions and it sounds like you're kind of in a place where you're always open to the right acquisition. What are kind of the ideal characteristics of like the ideal acquisition? I'm guessing you're not going to try to acquire like E&Y's consulting group. I'm guessing you're looking for smaller operations than that. Tim: Yeah for sure you know. So an organization, the organizations we have acquired, have been anywhere from a half a million dollars to two million dollars in revenue. Those organizations the owners may be getting older, they may be getting ready to retire and they're not sure what they want to do with their business. What they do know is that they don't want to continue to run it Right and that it's marginally. They're making the same amount of money or less than if they had a corporate job Right. So it's sad to see, because they love what they do right and they want to place their customers in with a firm that has a similar culture, that takes care of their customers and really make sure that they're doing the right thing for their customers. So a firm that might be in a half million dollars to two million dollars in annual revenue, or the firm might be a five employee firm or smaller, and that they're getting to that point where they're kind of tired of running the organization and they'd like to transfer. They've taken care of their customers over the years and they've made relationships with those customers over the years and they like to put them with an organization that will take care of those customers and make it a seamless transition for the customer base sure, and I bet, I bet these sellers would probably be shocked if they were able to come in and look at the finances of their business like two years after you've acquired it. Dave: Right, because I'm guessing? Tim: Historically, yes, I will tell you, in probably at least half of those transactions that we've done in the either 12-month or 24-month payout period, they've made more money in that 12-month or 24-month period than they've made in the last three to four years. Dave: Oh, because that earn out ends up being a function of how much you bill over those 12 to 20. And you dramatically increase the revenues, so they're automatically getting participation in that. Absolutely. If they'd known that they would have sold to you 20 years earlier. They just wanted to work for you had their payout and then just become an employee. Right, they want to come out way ahead. Exactly, yeah. Tim: Yeah, now it's really good to see that. I mean, you know, that's one of the things that my competitors don't do. They try to come in and offer this ridiculous number for a business and then the earn out. They beat them up on the earn out and end up with anything. They end up with an initial payment and then maybe they'll get an earn out, maybe they they'll get an earn out, maybe they won't get an earn out, but they're going to tell them how horrible their organization was and how bad the customer base was and how it's not profitable and you know, it's just not how I do business. Dave: Yeah, and I'm having done. Did you say eight acquisitions? Correct, yeah, I'm guessing you've done enough now. That now you have the ability Correct? Yeah, I'm guessing you've done enough now that now you have the ability, the same way that I understand you know when Berkshire Hathaway acquires a at that same point. Now You've got enough success stories that you can point to those as another differentiator, right? Tim: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. We're not at the Berkshire Hathaway point, but we got a couple under our belt and a couple of examples that we can refer back to and have some validation around our acquisition process. Dave: Yeah, because I'm just like, as I'm just playing through some hypothetical numbers, like you know, if a company had, say and you don't have to confirm these, but say a company was doing half a million in revenue, the profit is say you know 50 grand and you buy them, is say you know 50 grand and you buy them, and it wouldn't surprise me if, like, two years later, you know that revenue number doubled and the profitability number like quintupled probably, and or you just you know dramatic increase. Just because you know I mean, quite frankly, you just have a better run business model but they had you're able to plug them in and so that's absolutely our goal. Tim: Yeah, and so your win isn't so much we like to see play out right. Dave: Yeah, and so your win isn't like other folks where you promise the moon and then you figure out all of these ways to not pay them. It sounds like your process is just like hey, because in your mind, being a strategic buyer, that business is worth way more to you. You know two years later, once you've done your magic to it, that business is worth way more and so you're okay paying them on an earn out, on a growing revenue number that maybe they didn't even contribute to, because at the end you know, as a I mean like on the front end you might pay, say you know, one times revenue, let's say just to pull a number out but by the time you get to the end of it, if the business is doubled and the profitability is quadrupled, you really ended up paying only one third or one half revenue. And so all of a sudden, whether you know found a way to squeeze them to where the imputed value you paid was one third annual billings or it was half of annual billings really doesn't matter, because the real value for you is like, year three after the earn out. You've got this great profitable book of business that you know you didn't pay much for in comparison to what it's worth two, three years later in your enterprise. Is that right that's? correct, yep, absolutely but the reason you didn't pay much, though, in in all honesty, was because the business wasn't very valuable. Tim: And it really wasn't right. Dave: Yeah, I mean they had owner value. Tim: Street value had a zero valuation on it right. Dave: Yeah, they had probably owner concentration risk. They may have had customer concentration risk, poor processes systems. You know the type of company that you know. There weren't people beating their door down to buy their because, effectively, you're just buying a job. If you bought that business, all right. How much do you pay for a job? Most people don't want to pay very much for a job. Now, what do you look for in an employee, just like you know the most techie person you can find. Is that really all that matters? Tim: No, it's not necessarily you know the most skilled technical guy out there, right? So one of the strategies that we have and maybe I shouldn't share that because my competitors may hear it, but we are a strong supporter of our veterans, so we have veterans that work in our organization. We're probably a 75 percent veteran organization. Dave: Oh, wow, ok yeah. Tim: Yeah, and we enjoy that. They come to us with technical skills and abilities but we build upon those we really do Right and we develop those particular individuals to be much better at what they do. But having our veterans on our team has been hugely successful from a reliability standpoint, as well as a dedication standpoint and the understanding to be able to follow orders as given, right Okay. So that's how we've been able to do that and our retention rate is extremely high. I would say that our culture is very good. We're very family oriented. We're very you know when work has to get done, work has to get done. But we also realize that the family comes first and there's family things that come in the way that need to be addressed. Right. You can't. Your kid gets sick. You have to go take care of your kid, you can't be at your job, right? Those kinds of things and being able to balance that. That was one of my challenges at American Express. I was a new father in my ninth year at American Express and I realized that, even though it was written in the book and preached on the values of the company, when it came time to actually exercise that it wasn't as flexible as I had hoped I was like you know. This is another reason I kind of need to get out. I need to raise my daughter and I need to, you know, and I plan to have other children. So family values and longevity of employees, it makes a huge difference you have to think about. If you have an IT guy in your organization and they're only there for a year or two years, they've gained a little bit of knowledge about your business and how it operates and what computer systems are, what systems and software you're using in your business. They get intellectual knowledge right that walks out the door when that employee leaves or you release that employee. Dave: Yeah. Tim: With maintaining our staffing. I've got people on my team that have been with us 15 plus years and they have a history of our customers that is like you can't buy that right. Sure, you've got that knowledge of that network, of when it was built, like we've built some of these companies, so we know it from day one and what we've done to different applications and how we've modified them over the years. So just having that knowledge be maintained with your service provider is huge, so, and we can go back and look at you know, oh, here's a ticket from 15 years ago that I worked, that I resolved this issue, wow. Dave: And how do you know? You know, cause it sounds like the company has been growing both organically and through acquisition. How do you know when it's time to hire? Do you wait till? Like people are working a hundred hours a week in complaining and quitting. Tim: Is that? Dave: the point you say oh geez, we probably should get somebody hired and we should probably hire in a hurry. The first person we come across Is that your growth strategy? Tim: for your people? No, definitely not, definitely not. So we have a lot of KPIs in the business that we can measure the performance of our organization, and mainly that's around resource utilization. Okay, so we have a lot of tools in our toolbox that give us an indication of when an employee is overloaded or when they have too much on their plate, so we can shuffle that within the business and be able to see who's got the workload and who doesn't have the workload, be able to move things around within the organization. But then we can also look at our utilization levels and, number one, make sure that we're profitable with those utilization levels but also staff appropriately to those utilization levels and know when it's time right. It's like okay, we acquired a company with five big customers and we didn't get any employees with it. Do we have the bandwidth or do we need to increase our staffing? So we really have a lot of KPIs around measuring that to make sure that we don't stress our existing resources and we balance it out that our people are profitable but they're not overworked. Dave: Yeah, no, that makes sense. And then how do your new employees come to you? Is it referrals from other employees mostly, or no, we do have. Tim: I sit on the board for one of the technical colleges and I use that technical college as our you know more or less recruiting platform. We find the best of the students. You know the kids that are shining. You know they kids that are shining. You know they're showing up on time for their classes, they're interested in developing their skills and they're really, you know, the top students in the tracks right Okay. Yeah, and then we recruit them out of there. We recruit them in at our first level, our entry level, on our service desk team and we build them up in our organization over a period of time, so lots of opportunity for them to grow once they come into our organization. Dave: Yeah, that sounds like a great way to bring new folks on. You can train them the way you want trained with your processes and systems. Tim: And then keep them right. Keep them you can give them a growth path and keep them so that they can be. They can get better at what they do, get a higher compensation, be successful in life. There's nothing makes me happier as an owner than to see an employee grow from where they came in the day they started with us to being successful in life. Buying a home buying a car, having a family, all of those kinds of things right, those are really important for me. They're kind of like energy for me to see a person develop over the course of their career with our organization. Dave: Some of my guests. When I ask them, like what's the most satisfying or gratifying part of the job, it seems to fall into two categories. It's either the satisfaction they get from serving the customer or the satisfaction they get from watching their team grow. It sounds like you're probably more on that watching the team grow and that and then they. I think it was Herb Keller that had the idea of take care of your employees, and your employees will take care of your customers Absolutely. Is that right, that your satisfaction comes more from taking care of the employees, and then the happy customers are just an expected outcome? Tim: Yeah, that is a result, right, absolutely. So you know, when I started started this organization, I started in the spare bedroom of my house. Oh okay, I had two analog phone lines. One was for my phone and the other one was a backup phone line, but it was also used for my dial-up internet to be able to help, oh wow, remote into into customers. Right, and looking back, I walk in now to our operations center and we have a pretty impressive organization and a pretty impressive facility that we own. And walking in now I'm like, holy crap, what the heck did I build? Dave: right that's awesome. That's super satisfying right, super yeah I can imagine well I cannot believe how the time is flying by. I always tell my guests it's like the fastest hour of their life is being on the podcast. Tim: How are we going to fill that hour, Dave? Dave: Yeah, I know. So I've got just two questions just to wrap up. If you had a time machine and could go back and give some advice to like your 25 or 30 year old self, what advice might you give yourself? Tim: Ooh, that's a good question. I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. What do I give myself? I probably would have started my organization sooner. Dave: Bingo. That's the answer that 90% of the people have. Tim: Yeah, I would have started my organization sooner. I needed that enterprise expertise, but I would have started it sooner. Dave: Sure, yeah, it's yeah, because the funny thing when you're an employee and if you follow the career path that your family suggested is actually they think it's a low risk, safe career path. But it's actually a high risk path because you have a customer concentration issue, meaning you have one customer, your employer and, as you learned three or four times that if they decide they don't need you anymore, you basically lose 100% of your income. They don't need you anymore, you basically lose 100% of your income. So it's actually less risky to have you know, even if you're just doing like consulting and all yours, just like a contract employee working 10 hours a week for four different companies, doing whatever. I find that that's far less risky, because if one of the companies doesn't need you, then you know you've only lost a quarter of your revenue. Tim: Yeah, I call it a scenario of I get hired multiple times a month. I hope I never get fired, but occasionally I get fired. But it should have an impact. I like it Well. Dave: so here's my last question. So you're a naturalized Houstonian, like I, am Tex-Mex or barbecue. Tim: Ooh, I like both really well. But yeah, tex-mex thing. If I don't have Mexican at least once a week, I'm going through withdrawals okay, so Tex-Mex? Dave: yeah, now, one person answered that question. I borrowed this from somebody else. One person answered it. They told me about a Mexican restaurant that has great brisket and they make like brisket enchiladas and brisket tacos and brisket quesadillas and he said that was like the best of both worlds there. And I thought, boy, that sounds like it. Tim: Yeah, there's nothing better than a brisket taco, for sure. Dave: That is awesome, I make some of those myself. That is great. Well, hey, as we wrap up, is there anything? I did not ask you that you wish I had Tim. Tim: No, I'd like to close by saying I shared with my team today and I'm always trying to come up with something that I share with my team every day and today I came up with solutions as a defense system designed to protect the most critical assets of your business the data. I like to just kind of close with solutions I as a defense system designed to protect your most critical assets your data, think about think about if your business lost access to its data, regardless of the circumstance. If they lost access to the data, what would that do to your organization? That's what we protect from. That's what we protect from. That's what we protect from happening. Dave: Yeah, Charlie Munger talks about the number one key to recognizing a great business opportunity is finding a company who's riding a wave that's only going to grow and increase over time, Because really all they have to do is just stay on the wave. Well, that certainly has applied to you, right? Because 25 years ago you probably had some companies that said ah our data is not that important. You know, I've got a Rolodex with all my clients' phone number and email, and you know, so the importance of data has only increased during that time, right? Tim: Oh yeah, it's dramatically increased yeah. Dave: Well, it's also. Tim: Everybody trusts that data will be there when they're ready to use it. Dave: Yeah, well, and also the other fact is digitization right 25 years ago, most of their data may not have been digital, it may have been analog or paper or whatever, but now virtually everything is digitized, which makes the data even more important. Tim: I go back 35 years in this industry and when I go back and look at it, I replaced the inner office envelope. Oh yeah, people would type up a memo on a typewriter, put it in an inner office envelope and put whoever was going to and put it in their outbox and the mail guy would come by and pick it up. I replaced that guy. That's true? Dave: Well, that is awesome. Well, Tim, I really appreciate your time. This has really been fun and you've really given me kind of an insight into what makes a really well-run IT services firm operate. So I really appreciate your time. Tim: Yeah, I appreciate your time as well, Dave. Always good to chat with you and good to catch up and appreciate your time today as well. Thanks so much. Dave: All, right, yeah, you too. Special Guest: Tim Loney.

In today's episode of the IC-DISC show, we had Scott Abels on the show to discuss his work as the owner of Precision Valuation Services. Scott has been in the business valuation game for over a decade and has helped over a hundred companies with business valuations. He fills us in on his two-part strategy for boosting a business's value. First, Scott runs the numbers to give owners an accurate picture of where they stand today. Then, he guides them through personalized steps to substantially increase that worth over time. Beyond the valuation nuts and bolts, we also dig into Scott's role as a business coach. How he really takes the time to understand each client's unique situation and goals. Plus, Scott keeps things straightforward with transparent, flat fees. All in all, If you want to learn how assessing and growing your business from the inside out can pay off big time, give it a listen.   SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Scott Abels specializes in business valuations and operates Precision Valuation Services, aiming to increase a company's value through a two-step process. We discuss Scott's expertise in conducting over a hundred business valuations and his 13 years of experience in the field. Scott's approach involves a formal valuation to determine current business worth followed by a strategic process to enhance that value. We cover Scott's background as a CFO and how it provides a unique perspective on business valuation compared to traditional CPA views. Scott shares real-life examples, such as identifying profit leakage due to incorrect pricing and over-delivering on customer service. Scott details how a comprehensive valuation and growth coaching can help businesses plan for a more profitable future and prepare for potential exit strategies. We explore the value of Scott's flat fee structure for his services, which helps eliminate surprises and empowers clients financially. Scott offers an initial consultation to deeply understand client needs and is willing to invest his own time to assess the potential to help them. Scott is open to answering listener questions about his services and expresses a strong passion for helping entrepreneurs grow their businesses. We highlight the joy of working with business entrepreneurs and the fulfillment that comes from helping them succeed and contribute to economic growth. LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About Precision Value Services GUEST Scott AbelsAbout Scott TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hi, my name is David Spray and welcome to another episode of the ICDisc Show. My guest today is Scott Abels. Scott owns a company called Precision Valuation Services and they work with privately held entrepreneurial companies who are wanting to increase the value of their organization. Scott does it with a two-step approach. The first is he does a formal valuation to see what the current value of the business is, and then he has a process that he takes his clients through to help them increase their enterprise value. It was an interesting conversation. Scott's got a great background and he's laser focused on helping entrepreneurs be even more valuable and have more valuable companies. Good morning Scott. Welcome to the podcast. Good morning Dave. It's good to be with you. So are you in the mountains somewhere or are you here in Texas somewhere? Scott: No, I'm just bragging about my summer trip to the Smoky Mountains. Here as the background, I'm talking to you from Flugerville, Texas which is just outside of Austin. Dave: Awesome. Well, I'm glad that you could make it. So let's get right to it. You are. I believe you call yourself, or some of your clients call you, a enterprise growth coach, or did I butcher that description? How do you describe yourself? Scott: Yes, the growth coach. That's exactly how I describe it. And what does that? Dave: mean, do you help them, like go to the gym and lift weights and get bigger and stronger, or is there something different? Scott: Well, it's kind of lifting weights for your business. Is that maybe a way to finish that analogy? So what I try to do is to help business owners first of all figure out what their business is worth today and then figure out how to make it worth more in the future. And this is especially helpful, as you can imagine, for a business owner who is maybe planning to exit his business. You know, eight or 10 years, whatever down the road, that's going to be his retirement, and so he knows what he wants his retirement income stream to look like. But maybe it's not quite there today, Maybe the value of his business is not quite where he needs it to be. And so the growth coach program is to help business owners like that or any other business owner who just wants to take his business today and grow it and make it more valuable in the future. Dave: Okay, and is it a whole comprehensive program, or can they just start by having you do the valuation first and see where it goes from there? Scott: Yes, dave, usually where we start is with the valuation to see where the business owner is today, and then the growth coach program is done on a month by month basis, but there is a structure to it where we walk the business owner through working on the key drivers of their business that drive value, that either improve value or that help to eliminate negative value, if you will. So it really is done on a month by month basis. It's not a long-term commitment or anything like that, and I find, dave, that really puts the focus on me helping them to achieve results quickly. So if they're not seeing the results that they want, they don't have to continue with the program. But it is very helpful and it definitely helps business owners to get to where they want to be Okay. Dave: And so if they want to just start with the valuation and then go from there, they can right. Scott: Yes, and actually a lot of clients do come to me for the valuation first for various reasons. It could be to buy or sell their business, it could be to transfer shares of interest to family members or to key employees. It could be for any variety of reasons, and often what happens is the natural discussion that we have about hey, here's the value of your business, mr Business Owner, and here's a couple of things that I see in your business, using my CFO background, that if we could improve these, your business could be worth even more. And oftentimes then it involves into, it evolves into a growth coach program or a growth coach opportunity. Dave: Okay, and it seems like one of the biggest complaints of that our clients have shared with me when they have the valuation done is that it just seems to take forever. They needed the valuation yesterday. They really don't have 60 days to do it, which I understand that 60 days is kind of a normal turnaround time, but do you have any options where you can have, like an expedited turnaround time? Scott: Yes, absolutely, and so I should go back, I think, first Dave, and just also add so my background is really as a CFO, as a leader of a financial leader, a executive of a business division of a larger business, so really in corporate America Dell and Motorola. So my background is kind of unique in that I approach that business valuation from the perspective of a CFO as opposed to the perspective of a CPA, who may be a tax CPA or something. To answer your question, the typical turnaround time you're right for the industry is probably 60 to maybe even 90 days. But we really strive to be able to provide expedited delivery to these business owners because oftentimes there's some kind of an event, there's some kind of a deadline that they have. So I offer pricing that is pressing for a standard valuation with a 45 day delivery timeframe, and then I also offer pricing for expedited delivery as little as two weeks, and of course the prices is more when you need that kind of option, but it is there for the business owners who need it and who are really pressed for time. Dave: Okay, well, that is good to know. Okay, so have you done many valuations? I mean, is it a couple, is it a dozen, is it more than a hundred? I mean, is this your first rodeo at doing this valuation stuff? Scott: Actually, I've done more than a hundred of these things and I've been doing business valuations for about 13 years, when I originally I left corporate America after about 25 years, started my own business and initially I started out as a fractional CFO and I enjoyed that work. What I found was it was very competitive and very price sensitive, very much driven by the price. But I had clients who needed help with business valuation and so I went off and got the CPA credential which is essentially a CPA for business valuators went off and got the credential and started doing business valuations for some of my clients and figured out a couple of things. I really enjoy doing these. The valuation is like a business puzzle and having a CFO's mindset. It just naturally fits with what I enjoy doing, and there's also not nearly as many people who can do these things and do them well. There are some folks who dabble in these, but there's very few folks like myself who do nothing but business valuation. That is solely what I do, so I spend almost 100% of my time working on either business valuation or the growth coach which evolves out of that. Dave: Okay, so what are the characteristics of a company, who you are best positioned to help and add value? You're either kind of revenue size or other characteristics that somebody's listening to this they think, oh, he's describing me. Scott: I need to call Scott, so I would say that the size, the kind of the sweet spot is maybe from two to $10 million, is where I see the revenue yes, that's annual revenue. That's where I see the majority of my clients, but I see some there smaller for sure, and I see a number that are bigger as well. This is for the valuation is usually driven by some kind of a need that the client has and again, like I said, it may be a buy-sell need, it may be a tax-driven need, it could be a divorce, it could be any number of reasons that they need that. So oftentimes it doesn't so much matter even the size of the business if they really have that need to get the business valued and they have to have a third-party valuation. That's what really kind of drives the valuation side of things On the growth coach though what we're really, what we really are most successful there is. As I said, business is probably between two and $10 million generally, but they could be larger and businesses that are maybe doing good today, but they'd like to do even better, and ideally they're looking down the road and saying, hey, my business is $2 million in sales today, but I'd like to get it to $10 or $20 million and more profitable than it is today. How do I do that? And so growth coach is a perfect solution for those types of business owners who maybe they're doing okay, but they'd like to figure out how to do better, especially with an eye towards the future. Dave: Okay, that is helpful. Do you have an example that you could share with someone, either just on the peer valuation side or the growth coach side, somebody who came to you with a challenge and you were able to, you know, add value? Just, I just find personalizing and having stories helps the whole message resonate better. Do you have a success story or two you can share? Scott: Yeah, I've got a couple I've got one on each side there today that I can share. Let's talk about the growth coach side first. So I think about a client recently that has a service business, and they are here. They were here in Austin and it was an established business that was making several million dollars a year. They had a couple of different product lines or service lines, I should say and they had been pretty profitable for a number of years. And just over the last 18 months or so their profitability had just started to dry up and they were doing more revenue than ever. So the business owners came to me and they said hey look, our revenue is growing and we got this new cool service that's really profitable but for whatever reason, we're just not seeing the bottom line profit. Can you help us figure this out? And so by doing some analysis for this business, we were able to quickly help them figure out a couple of things. Number one this new service that they were really touting and trying to sell as much of this as they could. It was not priced. It was actually priced at below break even. Dave: Oh no. Scott: And the reason was because, obviously, the business owners are not cost accountants, so they figured out what the direct costs were that were related, you know, the technicians and their time, but they didn't factor in any of the overhead or some of the other indirect costs, and it was a pretty significant amount that they were missing, and so they weren't fully collecting the you know the fully burdened cost for this service. And so the answer and they're busy bidding these projects as fast as they can, and so the answer was really very simple. For that we were able to calculate a new, better hourly rate. They would bid these projects based on the number of hours and an average hourly rate. We were just able to say, hey look, your hourly rate was X, and so you need to add this much to it, and if you do, then you're going to be profitable again. The second thing that they had going on, though, was on the other revenue stream, the old revenue stream. They had one customer that was pretty big part of that, and this was their quote, unquote their great customer, you know their cornerstone customer, and what I found out is I did the analysis was I found out that they were selling this customer a certain level of service, maybe here, but the actual service they were providing was way up here and as you talk to the actual technicians and the folks who served that customer, you realize that the customer is getting whatever you want to call it deluxe level service, but they were paying for standard level service. So this customer is really not profitable at all. Dave: No wonder the customer, no wonder the customer loved them so much, no wonder they're their favorite, most happy customer. Scott: So I was able to show them, you know, that this customer was really not again, was not profitable, and they thought this was their poster boy, if you will, customer. And this had just happened over time. Is what we noticed, dave, was that over time, you know, the technicians or the folks who serve these customers had just kind of been, you know, just generously adding in a little bit of this and a little bit of that, a little bit more of my time, and so over time, this customer really evolved into an unprofitable account. So the combination of those two things made a huge difference for this business and they quickly found their profitability again, even better than it was before, and as they were growing, you know, their profits really accelerated quickly. So that's an example on the growth coach side of things. Dave: That's great, I can give you one on the valuation side please. Scott: This was a lot quicker. So I had a client who the client was the I guess it was the surviving children. The father had owned a business interest it was like a 1.9% interest in a successful electronics business there in Houston, and so the father had passed away and the children were just simply trying to liquidate his interest so that they could just divide his estate up and close out the estate. Well, the business had some super high-powered attorneys I think it was Vincent and Elkins actually was their attorneys and they came back to this family with a value for that interest of like $40,000. That's what they wanted to pay him. And so the family said, okay, well, if that's what it is. And so luckily, their attorney talked them into getting evaluation and what I found very quickly was the value that business interest was over $400,000. So it was a 10x difference in value. Dave: Maybe it was an honest mistake. Maybe they just forgot a zero. You know those honest mistakes never seem to be to the benefit of the person not making the honest mistake. Scott: Well, I'm not going to say that there was ill will, there was negative will there on the side of the business, but I will say that the difference was huge and for the cost of evaluation, for a few thousand dollars, they were able to realize a 10x return on that, which was a fair return in the first place. So you know, stories like that are there especially make you feel really good when you're able to really help people that they wouldn't have been able to do this on their own. Dave: Sure, yeah, those are two great examples. I like that. That first example their most profitable line and their most profitable customer that they're so excited about, turned out to be not their most profitable customer and not their most profitable service line. Scott: Yeah, and you know, dave, the thing that I find in working with business owners is, like I said, that unprofitable customer evolved over a number of years so that customer started out being their best customer. Maybe they're only customer, I don't know, but over the years it just the pricing and the service, the way that they provided the service, just got a little sloppy. And a lot of businesses that I see don't have a lot of discipline in the way that they price their services. They priced it at whatever it was priced at 10 years ago when they made it up, and plus 10% or something. But they haven't taken the time, maybe lately to go through there and really say, okay, what should it be priced at today? Is it at a reasonable price or not? And maybe if their bottom line is positive, relatively positive, they may feel like it's that it's where it needs to be. But a lot of times when you do that kind of analysis around pricing which is one of the things that we would do in the growth coach program you may find areas of opportunity there that they didn't even know existed. Dave: So it sounds. I hear your enthusiasm and passion for this work. What is it about this? You know, just aside from the dollars and cents, did you find so satisfying about serving these clients? Scott: Well, I like I may have said this earlier to me this is a business puzzle and I just enjoy the challenge of being able to unravel what may seem like a really complicated thing to the business owner, but to unravel it for them, to explain to them what's going on and then to help them, to help them to be better off at the end of the day. And so part of it is just, intellectually, I enjoy the challenge of these, of the business puzzle, if you will. And secondly, it's just it's nice to be able to to walk away from helping a client knowing that you've done something for them that is added value, that they're ecstatic about, that they couldn't have done for themselves. And so, just like you and I, would go to a specialist for whatever it is that we might be doing, business valuation for a lot of people is a specialization that they really need. They need somebody on their side, somebody to help them understand this stuff, and I just enjoy doing that. Dave: Yeah, that really resonates with me because that's how our business is, that, yeah, we add value. But the part I find most satisfying is just the sense that you've made a difference, you've helped. And, of course, my heroes are entrepreneurs. So the fact I get to work with entrepreneurs all day is I find to be just very satisfying that I feel like I'm helping the heroes of the economy. You know, just do a little bit to help them, be a little better at it. Scott: Yeah, let me add. I want to add on that too, dave, I completely with you on that. You know, having spent 25 years the majority of my career really in corporate America, I saw some really sharp people and some hardworking people. But I can tell you now, having spent 13 years with business entrepreneurs, people who they don't get a paycheck from some company on a, you know, bi-weekly basis, they have to go out and do it themselves, and I can't tell you how enjoyable it is to work with these types of people. They're usually, they're usually intelligent or they're, you know, studious people. They're driven and passionate about what they do. They're very positive and upbeat people and it just feels like a good crowd to hang with. Right, I mean, it's a positive, uplifting experience working for these clients, as opposed to, you know, working in a post office or something like that. Dave: Right, yeah, just being a cog. Scott: Exactly, I can really understand your point about working with these entrepreneurs and just how, how enjoyable it is. You know, it's just good to work with people like that. 0:19:01 - Dave: Yeah, and I think, if I'm correct, I think the data shows that the vast majority of new jobs in this country come from those smaller entrepreneurial companies. It's not the Fortune 500 companies that are creating the net jobs, and I hesitate to think that an additional government job is progress towards anything. Scott: Yeah, agreed. Dave: So what's the best way? If somebody wants to reach out to you, can they reach out on LinkedIn? Is that a good way to? Scott: LinkedIn is a great way. I've got all my email and the phone numbers and things on there on email on LinkedIn, on my profile page. That's probably the easiest way. I've also got a website that they could visit precisioncfosolutionscom, and that's, like I said, linkedin is probably the easiest way to reach out to me. Dave: If they just want to cut to the chase and just give you a call, what's the number they should call? Scott: 5.30 and that's my cell number. It comes directly to me, okay. Dave: Now, if somebody calls you, though, do they need to be careful that the clock's going to start ticking after the first minute and they're going to get a big bill for you if they only talk to you for half an hour? Scott: 45 minutes, no, and that's another pet peeve of mine, Dave. I think you and I may be on the same page on this one too. I don't charge for the initial consultation and, frankly, I don't charge the client until we both agree on the scope of work, whatever that is, and we both agree that we want to do it. And oftentimes that means that I have invested some of my time already to get there. Things like an initial phone call just to understand whether or not I can even help them with what they've got, or whether we need to maybe refer them to someone else if I can't. Things like initially looking at their financials. So oftentimes, to figure out the fee structure for the particular client, I need to see what the financials are and ask a few questions about what's going on there, how complex is the business entities and that sort of thing, and I don't charge the clients for that. So the other thing that I really I think is really beneficial to my clients as well is everything we do is based on a flat fee Okay what the fee is going to be, and it will never be more than that. It may be less than that, but it will never be more, and I think this really empowers the client because they know what they're going to spend. It's not going to be a penny more unless we both agree that we want to add something to the scope of the work. But otherwise I believe the flat fee structure really empowers the client, gives them a good feeling that they know what the cost is going to be. The other thing is it does. Is it really? Again, I think it incentivizes me to get my work done as efficiently as I can. But ultimately, like your original question, there's going to be there'll be a fair amount of conversation I may have with these clients before we ever even talk about what the fees are and the fee actually starts Okay. Dave: And if you're anything like me, that's probably your. Maybe the favorite part of your day is getting a phone call from somebody out of the blue that starts with hey Sunso, gave me your name. They said you might be able to help me. All right, don't you love those calls because you're like what's going on? Tell me what's up, what's the story, drill down, figure out if you can help them or not. Scott: Yeah, exactly Exactly. I enjoy getting those kinds of calls and you know, dave, I just tell my clients look, if a 10 minute conversation with me will save you a couple of hours trying to figure it out on your own, I'm happy to do that. Whether it's on the front end of engagement, whether it's on the back end of an engagement later on, or whether it's a client that I'm not even going to do work for, I'm happy to give a few minutes of my time because I think it. Number one, I just enjoy being able to help people solve problems and number two, you know, as we know, it all you know evens out. In the end it all kind of pays, pays itself forward. I think when you do the right thing for the clients, they can't wait to tell their friends hey, this guy did this for me and he didn't even charge, you know. And ultimately, you and I are looking for happy clients who get what they need done. Dave: Yep, I agree. Well, as we're around in the home stretch, I've got a couple of questions for you that I'm hoping will be a little bit curveball likes. I'm hoping to kind of put you on the hot seat. All right, go. So the first one. It's real simple, it's one sentence. I'm not going to clarify what I mean. You just have to give me your gut answer. Okay, tax max or barbecue? Scott: That is really close. I'd say tax max. But barbecue is probably 1B, so yeah, tax max. That's where I usually go for on the weekends. Dave: The best answer I received to that question. I'm going to get who it was and they said it depends. If I know it's going to be like top 10 percentile barbecue, I'll take the barbecue. If I know it's just going to be average, I'll take the Mexican food, because the tax max has more tolerance for imperfection. Would have to agree with that. Scott: It sounds like an engineer's answer to me. Dave: I mean a tough old piece of brisket. That's like chewing an old piece of leather. Scott: I mean no matter how tasty it is. Dave: it's not a great experience, but, heck, I can go to Taco Bell and make do right, if I'm hungry. It doesn't have to be world class, okay well, that one was pretty easy. This one's a little tougher. This one may make you think so. If you had a time machine and you could go back in time and give advice to your 25 year old self with the knowledge that you've had over the last you know, few decades, what advice might you give to yourself? You? Scott: know I get to do that, something similar to that, with my kids who are of that age now. The advice I would give to myself is I would have started my own business much sooner, when I was younger, you know, before I had kids to provide for and such. Start early building the value of that business. Whatever it is, you're going to learn so much from that. You may fail along the way You're going to learn, but you're going to learn a tremendous amount and by the time you get to be our age now, the benefits of that would just pay off dramatically. I think my background in corporate America is really good, but a background as a business owner, I think, is it cannot be matched. If you want to do the things like you and I, you want to run your own business and ultimately, if you want to generate wealth. You need to own your own business right Because if you're working for somebody else you're generating wealth for them, and then you have an income stream that will end when you stop working. And if you own a business, you have generated wealth and you have other options. You can. You know you could sell that business if you want and take the equity you built. But yeah, I would. That's what I would do. I would have started my own business much sooner and learned the ropes. Dave: That is probably the most common answer to that question oh, interesting, yeah, they had struck out on their own sooner. Well, I think we've covered a fair amount. Is there anything that we didn't talk about that you think we should talk about? Anything that you think we should have? Scott: I think we've covered. I think we've covered most everything and I appreciate you having me, having me on the podcast with you here, and I would love to you know, to help any of your listeners If they've got questions, however big or small, I'd love to be able to help them with that or point them in the right direction. So thank you so much for having me and my pleasure, I enjoyed it. Dave: My pleasure. I appreciate you carving time out of your day and I hope you hope the rest of your day is great and I'll look forward to catching up with you another time. Thank you, Dave. Thanks for having me All right. Special Guest: Scott Abels.

In today's episode of the IC-DISC show, we welcome Deanna Walker, CEO of Venturity Financial Partners, to discuss the world of outsourced accounting. Deanna reflects on transitioning from banking to leading an accounting firm committed to transparency and team-based client service. We explore Venturity's unique approach to addressing private businesses' administrative and strategic needs. From supporting founder-led ventures to navigating COVID disruptions, Deanna shares insights into competently enhancing clients' capabilities. Our conversation considers the evolving role of CPA firms and the benefits of mentorship in this field. This episode offers not just information but valuable perspectives on outsourcing in today's accounting landscape, enlightening you on the potential strategies and solutions available.     SHOW HIGHLIGHTS I discussed outsourced accounting services with Deanna Walker, CEO of Venturity Financial Partners, exploring their commitment to open book management and "The Great Game of Business" principles. Deanna shared her journey from a decade-long banking career to leading Venturity, highlighting her experiences in business development and the firm's team-based approach. We examined a case study involving a multi-entity dental service organization where Venturity's offshore team significantly improved financial reporting and reduced errors. The conversation included how Venturity supports founder-led companies by maintaining institutional knowledge while enhancing accounting capabilities amid a nationwide shortage of qualified accountants. We delved into the importance of quality work, proactive collaboration, and consistent communication with clients in financial services, emphasizing a team-based approach to outsourcing. Deanna discussed the evolving role of CPA firms in the outsourcing space and the impact of regulations like Sarbanes-Oxley on their services. We explored Venturity's advisory practice, which includes a team of CFOs and COOs providing operational expertise and strategic planning support to clients. Deanna highlighted the significance of mentorship, particularly for women in accounting, and the positive impact of open book management on team engagement and service quality. We addressed the challenges Venturity faced during the COVID-19 pandemic, including capacity issues and the necessity of prioritizing client relationships based on mutual value. The episode concluded with a lighthearted debate on the merits of Texas barbecue versus Tex-Mex cuisine, revealing a shared passion for Tex-Mex.   Contact Details LinkedIn- Deanna C Walker LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About Venturity Financial Partners GUEST Deanna WalkerAbout Deanna TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hello, this is David Sprey and welcome to another episode of the IC Disc Show. My guest today Deanna Walker, the CEO of Venturity Financial Partners in. Deanna: Dallas. Dave: And Venturity is a outsourced accounting consulting firm and they've also grown into outsourced CFO, coo type work. We had a really great conversation talking about a variety of different things. One of the most interesting is they're committed to open book management and following the framework from the book the Great Game of Business framework from the book the Great Game of Business, and over time they've even gotten to where they are consulting with their clients on implementing open book management and all the benefits to it. So we went into some details there and I asked my standard questions, of course, about what they wish they had known when they were 25. And so it was a really great interview. Deanna has a really great story and we also got into a little bit of UT and A&M rivalry. So it was a fun conversation. I hope you enjoy it. Good morning, deanna. How are you today? Deanna: I'm great, David. How are you? Dave: I am doing great. I have my Yeti Whataburger cup and you'll see it as we talk. Deanna: There we go, let me some Whataburger. Dave: I know. So where are you located today? Deanna: I'm actually in Dallas, Texas. Dave: Okay, great, and I am in Houston, where I typically am. Hey, before we get started, I want to just address something that may cause this to be a very short podcast, so I noticed that you appear to be a proud graduate of Texas A&M University. Is that true? Deanna: Very true Well. Dave: I am a proud graduate of another large Texas State University in Austin. So I just thought, if this is going to be a problem. We should probably, you know get it out of the way right away. Deanna: I don't think it'll be a problem. I've already addressed this similar issue about 30 years ago. My husband went to the University of Texas, so we are divided. And I've got one graduate of there already and is soon to be graduate in May, and I can also probably say I am one of very few individuals, if not the only one, that has graduated with a degree from A&M that has a license plate currently that says hook'em. Dave: Yeah, you better not let too many Aggies hear about that, they may disown you. Deanna: Yeah, no. Well, we also have a text exchange that's called UT3 and a wannabe. So I would say I'm old Southwest Conference because I've got ties to SMU and Arkansas. So that may date me a little bit, but that's how far back I go with our Texas football. Dave: That's. That is awesome. So are you a native Texan then? Deanna: I am Born and raised in San Antonio, okay. Dave: Yeah, I grew up just east of San Antonio, so I know that part of the state. Well, let's get started. Tell me about Venturity Financial Partners. What the heck do you all do? Deanna: Well, we help business owners, CEOs, management teams solve problems that relate to their accounting back office, including the office of the C-suite. The CFO and the COO relate an alternative to becoming an in-house accounting and finance group. Dave: Okay, and where you see that you've been the CEO for a little, while not a long time. What's the background? How did you end up there? Did you start your career there? What's the story? Deanna: Yeah, no good question. I had about a 10-year banking career. So, coming out of A&M, moved to Dallas and worked in the investment banking field and corporate lending, acquisition financing field for about 10 years or so. Took a little bit of a break when my kids were younger and then got introduced to Chris McKee, the founder of Venturity, in 2001. I really fell in love with the business model and the opportunity to, like I said, help business owners, ceo-led teams, really focus on their back office accounting and bring expertise to the table, and so mainly grew up on the side of the business. That was, the business development side of the house. So most recently, before taking over CEO, I was the CRO. Dave: Oh okay, Chief revenue officer. Deanna: Yes. Dave: Okay, so who? What are the characteristics of the companies that you're kind of best suited to to serve then? Deanna: Yeah, Privately held companies really ranging in size from 10 to 500 million in revenue. Companies, like I said, people don't come to us generally because everything is working great in their finance and accounting department. They usually come because they're frustrated, can't get the right teams in place, not comfortable with their information, and so we can bring a lot of that expertise and partner with them. Dave: Okay, and what is that? And how does that look like? Is it, like you know, consulting engagements? Do they just completely like outsource their back office to you? Is it a mix? Deanna: It's a mix, it's a little bit of both At our core on the accounting outsourcing side. It's, like I said, an alternative to having an in-house team. It's a team-based approach and then we can augment that solution with special project resources, either on the accounting side and then, most recently in the last three and a half years, we added a COO advisory team that can really round out that finance function. And whether it's for an ongoing type of service there or popping in for a project either way. Dave: Okay, got it. Okay, I think I'm with you so far. Well, I love stories and I think our audience does too. Do you have some like client, like success stories that you can tell us about? And I realize you may have to have them anonymous, but I think that helps people understand, understand better with stories and examples. Do you have some stories? Deanna: I do. You know, I guess before I would launch into that I would say is just to add on a little bit to the concept of people don't come to us because their accounting is going well. You know, we're system agnostic, which I also think is a benefit. We work with a variety of industries and so just a lot of times people will come because they're very frustrated in terms of being able to attract and retain top talent where there's been a transition in their business and they're looking to augment and get information. So one that comes to mind in particular it's a family-run business, a wholesale distribution company, and they knew they wanted to sell second generation, but they really knew they wanted to sell. The CEO was not a family member. There was a family member that was still involved in the company and so they brought us on to help get their accounting ready for sale. I'm sure processes really make sure that they are adherence with GAP and so we worked with them probably for I don't know about a year and a half or so working through all of that, getting good cadence, with their month in close and their financial reporting really all in preparation to be put up for sale. Excuse me, they went through a successful transition. This one happened to be purchased by a private equity group, but we really help companies get ready for sale in all areas, but this one was private equity back and I think the interesting thing to note there is that this company has become now the platform for additional add-on acquisitions. So what we've also been able to do is augment to help the due diligence with this group in bringing the special project resources to bear, as well as CFO consulting and advisory. You know when it's needed. Dave: Okay, no, that's, that's great, did? I'm a big fan of John Wierlow's podcast. You know John. He wrote the book Built to Sell and he has a great podcast where he interviews every week an entrepreneur who had a successful exit and they kind of debrief on everything. Do you think that deal would have been much more difficult, if not impossible, to get done if they had not engaged you for the prior year and a half? Do you think it would have just been a non-starter for the private equity firm without that, or do you think it would have just been a lower price? Deanna: That's it lower price. There's a lot of capital out there that people have been to deploy, so I don't know that. I would say I think the accounting, when it's really bad, it may delay. I don't think it keeps the deal from getting done. But I think what we have seen and what our investment bankers and private equity folks will tell us, that having good information and your ducks in a row can really be the equivalent of two to three times turn on an EBITDA. So it's definitely an enhancer to valuation. Dave: Okay, give me one second. Hey, my dog is over in the corner. He woke up and decided his bed wasn't quite comfortable. He was just scratching around. Sorry about that, yeah, and that's, and that is what it comes down to, right, and then the due diligence was probably less painful. I'm guessing as well. Deanna: Yeah, it is. You know we have a product called an accounting assessment and it really sits in front of the Q of E reporting that is in either on behalf of the company or the private equity group and really just kind of what I'll call kick the tires on the accounting and it may seem like basic things but it can be very important. Are they really gap compliant? Are they matching revenue and expenses? Do they have an accounts payable process? Is there a revenue recognition need? That's out there for the type of company they are, and are they adhering to the right treatments there? So those are things where we can really go a little bit deeper into the accounting pretty quickly and that really helps with that Q of E and just helps the process move along to identify what might need to be shored up. Dave: Okay and Q of E quality of earnings. Deanna: Quality of earnings yes. Dave: Yes, thank you for clarifying. Yeah, okay. Well, that's a cool one. You have some other client stories. Deanna: Yeah, another one a little bit larger company. So we're, you know, like I said, we can work with companies 10 to 500 million in revenue, and this one was a multi-entity dental service organization and this one in particular had grown through acquisition. The CEO, when they came to us, was pretty frustrated and heavily involved in the accounting. They had a team in place, four or five person team, some offshore, some onshore and it just wasn't getting the information that he needed and instead of using the time when the financials were generated to analyze and look forward, a lot of time was spent checking for errors. This particular company had outside reporting to an investor group as well as to a bank, and so there was just a lot of eyes in different constituencies looking at the information. And there's just a lot of eyes and different constituencies looking at the information and there's just a lot of time checking for mistakes. And so we were able to come in and map out the very seamless transition over a period of a few months. We tapped into our offshore team as well that we've had since 2006. And we were able to transition to the accounting to our team really short processes and procedures move up the month-in-close timeframe so we could get information into the hands of the management team sooner and then hence out to the external reporting constituencies. And now the time is spent really looking at the operations of the business, figuring out what needs to be drilled down on getting information out to those individual locations more analysis and forward looking than looking for errors. Dave: Okay, did they end up just eliminating that internal team then? Deanna: There was a transition. A couple of people on their India side were kept and moved over to. We don't handle the billing, because insurance billing had a different team, but a couple of those folks were moved over to that team and then the others were transitioned out. We don't handle the billing, because insurance billing had a different team, but a couple of those folks were moved over to that team and then the others were transitioned out. We don't always have to be a situation where we transition team members out. A lot of times it's really based on sort of the level of talent and what the opportunity is there. We kind of round out that function if there's resources that need to remain in-house. Dave: Okay, so you had a situation here where, let me just recap because of the bank and the investor group, the accounting team was hyper-focused on not being in the uncomfortable position where the bank or an investor would say, hey, what's this expense? Then they look at it and then they come back and say, oh, that was a mistake, we had miscoded that, and which just crushes the confidence that those investors and users have. So it sounds like they were hyper-focused on preventing that and they probably got to that hyper-focused because they'd been burned, probably in the past. So they got to that position to burn probably in the past. So, yes, so they got to that position and because of that that slowed down the close and it just had them really devoting a lot of time and resources to just that. You know, no, no errors financial. Deanna: Yes, and also getting the senior management team involved and kind of running down those errors, spending way too much time in the higher level I mean, because the trust wasn't there and they were the ones that were putting their faces on the front lines right to the investor group and to the banks, and there was, you know, debt on the books and you know, and so they really wanted to kind of just glitched up sort of the roles and responsibilities and freed up the CEO to really, like I said, focus on more of the analysis once the team was able to start trusting in the numbers again. Dave: Okay, well, that's okay. That's another great story. Do you have a third one? Deanna: Let's see. You know, I think we've had lots of situations where we can come in, so these were involved, sort of taking over everything that. We have lots of situations, though, where we can come in, so these were involved, sort of taking over everything that. We have lots of situations, though, where we can come in. And you know the thing about some, especially the founder led companies they have really great people on their team that have grown up with them over time and they become family members, right, and so it can be difficult or challenging sometimes when you've got a really longstanding, committed team member, but maybe the company has grown to the point where it's maybe outstripped the skill sets of that individual or individuals, and so those team members bring a lot to the table in terms of institutional knowledge, but they may not have what's needed to take the company to the next level from the accounting standpoint, especially if there's complexity in the business. Sure, mentory management, manufacturing processes or, for construction, clients work in process. So we do this quite a bit. Actually, we'll come into scenarios where those types of team members are on the ground and a lot of times the business owner, the management team, really want to keep those folks and elevate them into new roles because of their operational expertise. So we can come in and augment and work with those types of team members so they don't have to be displaced and they can get more on the analytical side of it, or they can be a bridge between operations and accounting and then we can come in and do that blocking and tackling on the accounting and really get the books closed and make sure that we bring that type of product to the table for them, but that those individuals stay in place and are supported by us but also elevated and coached by us if need be too. So I don't have a specific particular client on that one, because that's a lot of what we do for clients. Dave: Yeah, no, that's great A representative example, because that's a lot of what we do for clients. Yeah, no, that's great A representative example. So the CPA firms we work with, you know, so basically all of our clients because we do just one, we do just one part of the tax process that we coordinate with their longtime CPA firms so we have interactions with hundreds of CPA firms each year. Firms so we have interactions with hundreds of CPA firms each year and, of course, a common theme is just the shortage of qualified people, and I'm guessing that's a similar problem in-house as well, not just in public accounting. Is that accurate? Does there seem to be a shortage of talented people? Deanna: Yes, we've had a shortage of accounting folks for quite some time, really even pre-COVID, but it's definitely been exacerbated by COVID and the opportunity for accounting folks to work remotely to service companies all over the country and, in fact, from all over the world. I think we've been doing outsourcing since 2000, and so we were a little bit on the cutting edge of, hey, you can get your accounting done and not be in the office, you know, sitting there. But now it's really opened all of that up, and so it has created some challenges in attracting and retaining folks. So for us we're not immune from that. But we offer our team members the ability to work with a lot of different clients and be promoted from within and a career path and, you know, in training as well, and so they're first and foremost employees of Venturity, which we are a 20% ESOP owned company and we're also open book management. So we invest a lot in our culture, which I believe helps us to attract and retain folks. We also have an offshore partner that we have worked with since 2006. And so we partner with them and so we divide and conquer on scope of resources between our two groups as well, which just helps us in terms of being able to, if an opportunity comes to us, especially if it's a large one, mobilize quickly to serve that client. But you're right, it's been tough for several years now. Dave: But it sounds like in on balance it's been more of an opportunity for you because you're better able to navigate that shortage than what your client is probably. Is that accurate? Deanna: Yes, I would say so. I think you know that's very true, and we can provide that ongoing training as well, and we have 50 accountants that come to the office every day. So there's a lot of collaboration, team-based approach, resource sharing, things like that, and so that's enticing to a lot of people, as well as the ability to get exposure to a lot of different companies and a lot of different industries. So being system agnostic, working in a lot of different systems as well as industry, provides a lot of opportunity for folks in the accounting field and the opportunity to be promoted as well. Dave: Okay, and you all don't like audit financial statements or prepare tax returns, correct? No? Deanna: that's a really great question. So we're really structured as a professional services company and we like to say we sit on the same side of the table as our clients. So while we have CPAs on staff and our founder is a CPA, our clients get audited by outsourced CPA firms and we don't do tax work either. So we're more of that internal accounting department resource and we partner a lot of times with the tax CPAs and the auditors in terms of giving them the information they need to discharge their services. Dave: Okay, what do your clients say? Or what would you think your clients would say if I said, hey, what makes Venturity so great to work with? What are the things that your clients tell you differentiate you in the marketplace or make you such a valuable partner? Deanna: Yeah, I would say the quality, two things the quality of our work as well as the proactive focus we have on collaboration and communication with our clients. We're consistent. We deliver our financials on time. We send out weekly updates to our clients that they even though we're not going on site to do the work on a regular basis they know at any given point in time where they stand. We're in constant communication with them. We do have onsite meetings it's not like they never see us by any means, but it's very reliable, very consistent. It's very process and team-based versus a people-based solution where you have, maybe you know, all of your accounting is done by one individual and it's tied up in the head and knowledge of that one person. We bring a team to the table and divide and conquer on skill sets, and that's a little bit unique in terms of the way outsourcing. We bring a team to the table and divide and conquer on skill sets, and that's a little bit unique in terms of the the way outsourcing it has been done. Dave: I know some of our the CPA firms. We know, because of the shortage of talent, they've had to make some hard decisions. You know which clients you know they can serve and they've had to actually, you know, disengage with clients just because they didn't. You know they just don't have enough people to really serve everybody. Have you all had to go through a similar process where there's just you know some of your smaller clients you just realized you just don't have the capacity for? Has that been a challenge for you as well? Deanna: We definitely have gone through that in various periods of time. You know we had a couple of things during and coming out of COVID. There was just more work to be done than you can have people for, and so you know there was at one time at our not proud of this, but we had a wait list of like six to eight weeks to bring on a new client and that's super challenging. And so at that point in time we, you know, we were working to have the most efficient client relationships that we can, and you know we want to make sure we have partnerships with our clients where there's mutual value in the relationship. We're more than just bookkeepers and ticking and tying on transactions. So our clients that really that we both collectively benefit the most from, are those that really value that collaboration that we were talking about getting together once a month and having financial summits or we call it getting the call, the ones that are going to pick up the phone and call us and include us in decision-making. And so when we have to have those times that are unfortunate, when we go through some of those analysis to make sure what's the best fit, we take all those things into consideration. So we have had to do it. We don't like to do it necessarily, but at the end of the day we're looking for the right fit on both sides, and so generally that works itself out in the way that it's supposed to. Dave: Okay, yeah, that makes sense. As far as new business the business that's referred does it come mostly from current clients, investors, cpa firms, banks, a mix of all of them, and are there any? There have been any trends in the last few years where it's shifted one way or another? Deanna: way or another, the answer is yes, it comes from all of those. We've got a really great business development team. So we're a referral-based, relationship-based selling organization. We do very little cold calling. We're keeping our eye on things that are out there in the market and definitely are opportunistic. If we come across a company that we may think that is looking for someone or could use our services, and we'll reach out. But yes, we, we develop a group of center of influence. You know relationships and they are comprised of everything you just mentioned. You know bankers, cpa firms, lawyers you know, other professional services providers that really have the ear of that client. You know as well. I would say, one of the things that's been an interesting trend as of late and I would say late, maybe four or five years is the CPA firms are more and more focusing on the client accounting outsourcing space Used to be they would do bookkeeping as a means to an end for the tax work and they weren't so much focused on providing what I would call ongoing accounting services to clients, but we've definitely seen a focus in that area in the last five or six years, but it's pretty popular right now and so, but there's still so many companies that need expertise. We don't often go up against five or six at a time when we're looking at a new relationship. It's still very rare, and mostly what we're competing against is companies choosing to build an internal team, but we're definitely the CPA firms putting more emphasis on it. We still have maintained those referral relationships because if you are auditing those companies, you generally don't want to necessarily be doing the accounting for them, and so we partner with folks that really want to put the best interest of the client first and foremost, and so our referral partners. You know there's sometimes overlap in terms of what maybe they can do and what we can do, but when we take that honest approach to what's the best in the best interest of the client, that tends to work itself out. So we want to have partners as well. When we come across something that is not going to be a great fit for us, that we can send and know that they're going to get taken care of in the way we would. Dave: Okay, no, I like it and that's interesting that evolution of the CPA firms really doing more and more outsourced accounting. It makes sense and I think back when I was at Arthur Anderson like a long time ago well, they'd been out of business for 25 years, so it's been a long time ago but I think back then the accounting firms could actually do consulting for clients they audited and I think that was part of the shakeout or the fallout from that and I think that's what led to Sarbanes-Oxley and some of that stuff. Deanna: Now you're getting a little technical on me, but it's actually true. So, public companies if you're a public company you really can't do it. If you are private, technically you can have that separation. The onus is on the CPA firm to make sure that if they're doing an audit and also doing the accounting, that they put the proper separation in place. But a lot of them just won't mess with it. You know because of things that have happened in the past. In certain situations it might make sense, but we oftentimes find that they like to maintain those relationships and so if they've got a strong audit relationship and there's an accounting need there, they generally will refer it out. Dave: Okay, well, that is excellent. We have covered a lot quickly as we're kind of nearing the home stretch. Is there anything I have not asked you that you wish I'd asked you? Deanna: You asked some really good questions. I mean, I think we haven't talked too much. We talked a lot about accounting. We haven't talked too much about our advisory practice. Dave: Yeah, let's talk about that. Deanna: It's relatively new. So our company is 23 years old and I've been with the firm for about 20 and off and on throughout that time. Actually, during all of that time our focus up until about three and a half years ago was the outsourced accounting piece and to get specific about, that's what I would call the controller level and down. So you know our relationships are rooted in that month in close in the financial reporting. We can also pay bills, invoice clients. We don't do actual payroll processing but we do payroll coordination. So a lot of balance sheet reconciliation work, that type of thing, and over the years there would be times where a client may need that forward looking piece or some additional consultation or an advisor to the CEO or what have you, and so we would bring in a CFO generally fractional CFO partner from the outside. So we would maintain those relationships as well and have good referral network there and that's worked really well and we've maintained those relationships. But about three and a half years ago we established our practice internally as well and we have five what we'll call CXOs. But the reason we have the CXO in there is because it's a combination of CFOs and a couple of folks that are COO, executive type individuals that are 25 plus 30 years plus of experience in the marketplace that can bring that expertise and knowledge to the table to really round out our accounting function and really have what we call that seat at the table with the management team. What that does is it allows us to go deeper with our clients and bring operational expertise to the table or kind of merge and mesh the operations in the accounting. Accounting is the ultimate scorecard. So if you're doing your accounting correct and you're analyzing your information, then you can take it back to what's going on in the operations right, whether it's a process you need to revamp or sales you need to focus on or handling something slightly different way, so that team can help. Those individuals can help bridge that gap and then take that information and look forward with the client as well, and get more into forecasting and budgeting. And how do we prepare for a sale, or where should we go next? A new market, that type of thing. So it brings that operational focus in, you know, to the forefront too. Dave: And that service? Was that more an augmentation of existing relationships or adding that piece? Or is that actually grown to be where you're actually bringing clients in through that service path and then sometimes adding the accounting outsourcing or not? Deanna: Yeah, that's a really great question. It's been a little bit of both. So, you know, we've been able to expand our existing client relationships and bring that level of you know of service to the table. But then we have a lot of opportunities that we may not have been able to do the accounting if it were not for that C-suite individual to lead the charge of the team. And those are usually, the more you know, david, the more complex situations where and it's generally not the complexity related to the accounting, it's the complexity related to the relationships, the management team folks, the constituencies, whether external reporting, things like that to have that C-suite individual to help manage all of that allows us then to come in and do what you do, what we do, really well, which is the accounting. It can be challenging for our controllers to have to manage multiple relationships at the client level because of the way that our teams are set up. So to have that extra level of expertise who can get in there and have those conversations and be a right hand to the CEO or other members of the management team, allows us to have a more expanded relationship in certain situations. Dave: OK, yeah, I can see why you all have gotten into that service line. And then how do you know when to still use one of your longstanding fractional CFO relationships, maybe industry expertise or something like that? Deanna: relationships, maybe a industry expertise or something like that. Yes, thank you for bringing that up, because I'm particularly proud of the fact that when we started the practice, we went to the folks that we had existing relationships with and it's you know, it's a variety and we said, hey, we're getting into this, but we don't want to displace our relationships with you know, with you for that very reason because they're you know, as I said before, our focus is to make sure that we've got the client's best interest in mind, and you know our folks are generalists that we have on our team, and so if there's a particular expertise that is needed, say, and really deep restructuring knowledge, or you know just something where we don't have that expertise, we want to be able to refer it out to someone that we know and can trust. So we've maintained all of those relationships. You know that if it doesn't make sense for us, then we know exactly where to go with it. Dave: OK, no, I'm glad that you mentioned that and I'm sorry I didn't ask you about that. What else? Is there anything else that you wish we'd covered, that we didn't get to? Deanna: I think a couple of things that might be unique about us that I think allow us to really bring a high quality service to the table is that we're a group of accountants, so we definitely know accounting, but we went open book management in 2017 through a relationship with an organization called the Great Game of Business I don't know if you're familiar with it, I do. Dave: Yeah, the Springfield remand. I forget his name, jim, something. Jack Stack, jack Stack, yeah. Deanna: Yeah, and so we really we went open book management, not because our folks didn't know how to do accounting, but we wanted them to be able to have a stake in the outcome and to really feel empowered, to know that they can make an impact in our business, and it's been very successful for us. As you can imagine, it's a process-oriented kind of system and a communication system, and so our folks love process and so we follow it. What I would say letter to the law. We huddle every week. We know where we stand at any given time in our financial situation, and the benefit to that is our folks are constantly having conversations and engaging themselves and services farm where the new deals come from. So it's much more expansive than just, hey, how do you calculate gross margin or net income. So that type of conversation really allows us to even be better and bring more of that type of conversation to the table with our clients as well, and we have clients that are becoming more and more interested in that, and so we can help with that as well in terms of helping them if they want to start thinking about how they can get their team members involved. Dave: That's great. Yeah, that was going to be. My next question was whether, having done that for seven years, you're advising clients who are interested in that as well. So that's great, yeah, it's been a lot of fun. That's great. Well, as we wrap up, I have just a couple of fun questions here at the end, Some curveball questions. Are you up for some curveballs? I am, let's see so if you'd mentioned that you've got a recent graduate of UT and then another one that's there. So the question almost could be a two-part, but I'll ask it the way I normally ask it. So if you could go back in time and give advice to your 25 year old self, what advice might you give? Like, with the benefit of hindsight and knowing how things turned out, is there any advice you might give to your 25 year old self? Deanna: Yes, absolutely so. I also have a 26 year old, so I have three children. So, I am tempering myself every single day on how much advice to give and how much to support. Sure, sure, I have evidence by my dinner conversation, even last night, with our oldest who is, you know, looking to make a career move. So I would say the advice I would give to myself is to I was someone who wanted, was very eager, to go to that next step. Have this planned out, have that planned out, get to this next step. And I think the advice that I would give to myself back then would be to take a little bit of time and try something new and not worry so much about if it doesn't go the way that you need it to, or think you might want it to, or you think it might should, and not be so worried about what happens if it doesn't work out, and that can translate to switching a career or maybe even moving away, or you know, for a period of time and just not being so planned out. Dave: Okay, yeah, I intentionally asked the question because it seems like we would be more amenable to advice from our future self than other people might be amenable to our insights. Deanna: Yeah, for sure, and you know, from my young career standpoint you didn't have this question, but I think you know I often get asked the question. I would say as soon as you can get a coach or a mentor, get one, even if you think you can't afford it. I would say invest in somebody who's going to really be objective, push you out of your comfort zone, you know, to someone that you can really rely on to to help you push yourself to grow. Dave: Okay, well, and maybe. Deanna: I've given you an opening there. Dave: So so now you, the next time you want to give advice, you can say hey, I was on this podcast and they asked what advice I would give to myself when I was your age and this is the advice I would have given to me. But I'm not saying you should take it, but this is if I knew then, what I knew now. This is what I would have told myself to do. So maybe I'll give you a new tack that you can take. Deanna: Yeah, I think, as long as it's not your kids. I do mentor a lot of women who are earlier in their career and trying to figure out how to navigate and manage and you know ebb and flow, the things that come with with life and so I really enjoy that and it's one of my, one of my passions, quite honestly. Dave: I think kids your own kids. Deanna: Having that separation is also the advice I would put out there. As we all know, we learn from that and I continue to learn that lesson. Dave: It's ironic. You could have an unrelated person who's virtually a carbon copy of you, and they could have a carbon copy family, yet their kids would take much more value from your advice, and vice versa it's something about you can't be a prophet in your own homeland, I guess you can't be a prophet in your own home either. Deanna: Yes, no for sure. Which is you know the benefit of like having a strong community. You know growing up and having kids and you know investing in your community because that part does help, yeah, but no that's absolutely true. Dave: All right. So the final question. This is the fun one, so I'm going to ask you a question and you just need to give your gut answer, right? So don't think too much about it. Okay, so we're both in Texas, barbecue Tex-Mex. Deanna: Oh, tex-mex hands down. Tex-mex hands down. I can eat beans and rice for every single meal. I actually love barbecue. Five or 10 minutes in it starts to get too much. No, but beans and rice, mexican, all day long. Dave: Yeah, I'm with you. Well, Dina, this was really fun. I appreciate you taking the time to join me this morning and I hope the rest of your week goes great. And again, it was a real treat and I appreciate you making the time. Deanna: No, I enjoyed it very much, thank you. Special Guest: Deanna Walker.

In today's episode of the IC-DISC show, I chat with Jane Howze, founder and managing director of executive search firm Alexander Group. Jane shares her remarkable transition from commercial lending and law into this male-dominated industry. Her insight into culture, growth, and talent acquisition provided invaluable counsel for aspiring leaders. We explore nuanced career shifts and hiring new teams, emphasizing integrity's strategic importance. Jane highlights fact-checking credentials for ethics and vetting, referencing a shocking case of credential fabrication. Our conversation sheds light on work evolutions, from mentorship changes to communication innovations over the years.   SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Jane Howze shares her career transition from a commercial lending officer and lawyer to the founder and managing director of the Alexander Group, a top retained executive search firm. We discuss the early challenges Jane faced in a male-dominated industry and her experiences at Korn Ferry, emphasizing her success in executive search. Jane and I reminisce about shared history at The Alexander Group, including nostalgic and entertaining stories from the early days of our careers. Jane emphasizes the importance of integrity during career transitions, particularly when handling professional references and avoiding misrepresentation. We touch on the strategic advantages of honesty and the repercussions of fabricating qualifications, as highlighted by a CEO's false claim of a computer science degree. The episode covers the evolution of workplace dynamics, mentorship, and the practical advice Jane offers for aspiring paid board members. Crazy industry tales are recounted, such as an adventure with a $700 car in LA and setting realistic client expectations in executive search scenarios. Jane provides insights into networking and career strategy, especially relevant during the Great Resignation and for those aiming for public company board positions. We explore Dave's innovative client communication strategies and the impact of networking, as well as the significance of crafting a board-specific resume. The episode concludes with a light-hearted exchange about "tours of duty" within a firm, comparing it to conscription, and reflects on the demanding but rewarding nature of our work experiences. Contact Details [Email] (jhowze@thealexandergroup.com) LinkedIn LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About The Alexander Group GUEST Jane HowzeAbout Jane TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hi, this is David Spray and welcome to another episode of the IC Disc Show. My guest today was a very special guest. Jane Howes is the founder and managing director of one of the world's top retained executive search firms, the Alexander Group. Jane was actually my boss two different times about 25 years ago. As we talked about on the episode, she was both the greatest boss I'd ever had and my least favorite boss I ever had, sometimes in the same day. Jane has a wealth of knowledge on all aspects of culture building all aspects of culture building, firm building, growing a firm, picking the right people. We also took some stories down memory lane back from the days we worked together and when the firm was very young. This episode has a lot of great information for any executive or business owner who has any hiring responsibilities. Finally, if you've ever considered becoming a board member, jane has some great insights and tips on how to start your career as a paid board member. I hope you enjoy this as much as I did. Jane, welcome to the podcast. Jane: Well, Dave, it's wonderful to be with you. Dave: This is so. I was so excited for this, so I think I've told you this before. Jane, you were my all-time favorite boss and my least favorite boss, sometimes in the same day. Jane: And probably sometimes within 10 minutes of each other right. Dave: Perhaps, but you're the only boss I ever had twice. So I had left. I was gone a couple of years and then I was in a spot where I needed some contract work. This was before Uber, so I couldn't just go start driving my car around and you all were gracious enough to have me come back and it was wonderful. But I just want to thank you for all the opportunities you've given me, all that you've taught me. I've learned. I learned so much about business, communication, ethics, client service, so that served me the rest of my career. So thank you, jane. Jane: Dave, when you came back the second time, I was like our ship has come in. Dave Spray is back for more punishment, more reward, and I just feel really honored that our paths have crossed, because you could have been a great, you were a great recruiter, could have and still could. Dave, You're the best. Dave: Well, that's very nice of you to say so. Yeah, I enjoyed a lot of my time at the firm, so where are you calling in from today? Jane: I am in our Houston office today. As you know, we have offices in California, new York and DC. As you know, we have offices in California, new York and DC, but I will work out of Houston until it gets too impossibly hot to work out of Houston, as you know, and we'll head west. Excellent, well, that sounds great. Dave: Now, are you a native Houstonian? Are you one of those rare people born here that lives here? Jane: No, what's the saying? I got here as soon as I could, but I am from Birmingham Alabama and went to college in Memphis, tennessee, and my roommate from college was Houstonian and back in the day, you know, the Galleria had just been built and Houston was just this huge boomtown and I was glad to come here back in the infancy almost. Dave: Wow, and what did you do for work when you got here? Jane: I worked as. Are your listeners mainly in Houston, or are they scattered all over? They're all over the country in Houston or are they scattered all over? They're all over the country. Yeah Well, I worked for the largest bank in Houston and I was a commercial lending officer and attended law school at night. And then the story goes I practiced law and I left Houston and went to California and practiced law and then came back. So you know, kind of roads lead back to Houston. Dave: Ultimately, Okay, and then what? Did you just like have a dream or a vision or something that you needed to leave the law business and get into executive search? What prompted that? Jane: Well, a lot of practicing law, as I'm sure your listeners know, a lot of it is very compliance oriented, very regulatory oriented, and I'm not a regulatory kind of person. And I had gone from being a commercial loan officer, where my job was to deal with people all day, to being stuck in a law library reading compliance regulations. Oh my goodness, this is not good, this is not my personality. And read an article in Fortune magazine about Korn Ferry, the largest executive search firm in the world, and it was like the proverbial bolt of lightning went off. Dave and I was oh my gosh, I would be fabulous at this. I need to go work for Korn Ferry. And they had an opening back in Houston. So I left the practice of law in California and joined Korn Ferry in Houston. Dave: Wow, and you were, and I'm guessing that you were one of many women at the firm. I'm sure, right, this was the 80s executive search. Jane: Let's see there were 200 partners and two women, and the minorities were all in the Hong Kong office. Dave: Okay, I mean diversity was achieved, but there were like six men in the Hong Kong office. Jane: Okay, I mean diversity was achieved, but there were like six men in the Hong Kong office and that is not a knock on Korn Ferry that the executive search business was oh, we want to give a CEO search to somebody we've served in the military with, or somebody that we go hunting with, or somebody on our bowling, you know that kind of thing, and women just weren't in that place then. So it was definitely an early time and a good time to get into executive search. In retrospect at the time it seemed a little challenging. Dave: And you. So how did it go, did you? Was it all you hoped it would be? Jane: You know, the minute I started recruiting I was happy I knew I had found my calling. Before I got into search, I had always been one of the people that said I'd love to introduce you to this person, I'd love to fix you up with this person, and so I finally got in a position that you got paid for it which is great by two partners from KPMG who wanted to do recruiting of C-suite positions for their KP clients, and K wouldn't let them do it. So they formed Korn Ferry, and so I was lucky. It was kind of the early days of Korn Ferry they were maybe 15 years old by the time I joined them and global, so it was a really great move to learn the search business. Dave: You weren't there too long, right Before you felt the need to unfurl your own wings. Jane: Yes, that is true. I was wow. There are not many women partners here and I know I'm good at this and I know I can be successful at this. So, dave, I hooked up with another woman at Corn Ferry and the other big search firm is Russell Reynolds and we were like, well, let's start our own search firm, and I don't know that I would have done it by myself. But we started, really got going in 19, which is 40 years ago now. I feel like I'm the oldest living person alive still doing it. But we started and back then you didn't have the internet to do research and our first client was Grant Thornton the public accounting firm and the number two person at Grant met us and we went walking in their offices and there were no women audit partners then, or tax partners, and we went strolling in and he goes. Well, I believe in you all and I want you to help me build the firm. I'm going to do acquisitions, I'm going to do partner searches, I'm going to do campus recruiting, and we rode along for over 50 searches and practice acquisitions in our first years, which made it really a great foundation upon which to build. Dave: Oh, that's awesome. That is awesome, and that's been 40 years ago. Jane: Yeah, Dave, I probably tried to recruit you back in the days you were at Arthur Anderson. You were probably one of my recruits, even not knowing it. Dave: Yeah, you never know, you never know. And one of the is that when you started, the billing by the hour approach, or did that come later. Did you do that from the beginning? Jane: We started because, having been with a law firm where you're basically selling your time, we thought, well, we're going to be a different kind of search firm, we're going to bill by the hour. And it proved to be a great thing. And, dave, we were so cheap that people would go, you'll do, you'll take over all our campus recruiting for $50 an hour. And we were like, oh great, well, here's 10 colleges we don't want to go. You guys go, just do our recruiting for probably 10, 12, 13 years, which made it challenging because not everybody wants to fill out timesheets to the 10th of an hour, which we were. Dave: Yeah, no, but I remember when we would talk to potential clients, that was part of the pitch and the fact that they could do we could do all a card search for them. It's wrong as the source candidates, you know, we would just do that. And the other thing I loved was the independence that gave, because I know there were times that right late in the search we had three finalists and they would say, hey, we identified somebody on our own, can we throw them into the mix? And of course we were very receptive because we were just paid by the hour, like we didn't care. Whereas I think a lot of other firms, especially if there was a success fee component you know, would be very resistant to that, so I always thought that was great. What caused you to move away from that? Jane: Just the cumbers of it or just the greater tendency to do fixed. But you know, we started out doing lower level positions and as we built our reputation we were, frankly, we were leaving. Frankly we were leaving. We weren't great timekeepers and we kind of thought, well, let's still provide a win for our clients Because the big search firms you are obligated to pay the fee. Even if they find their own candidate, you're obligated to pay the fee. So what we decided was we will do a fixed fee. We will tell the client at the beginning of the search this is what your fee is. So it's not really tied to the compensation but the complexity of the search. So, for example, if we were doing a search in Fargo, north Dakota, in December, that might be a harder search. You know, with the pain in the bottom 10% of compensation ranges, that might be a harder search than doing a search in December in Florida, for example, or with the time. So we just pivoted I think it was in 2001 that we'll give you a fixed fee for the search, but it will be less usually than a third of total comp. So even if you put your own candidate into the process, you're still paying for it, but you're paying for a process, not a candidate. So we still had a competitive advantage. And it's interesting. Here we are today, in 2024, and some of the other search firms are now doing what we do. Some of our biggest competitors are going. Well, we'll give you a fixed fee if the Alexander Group's giving you a fixed fee. So it's interesting how it's turned out. Dave: But you were a disruptor in a number of ways in the industry. Jane: I mean it didn't seem like it at the time but now that I see other firms doing the same thing to try and compete effectively, they don't want to. They'd rather just get a third. But one of the things we tell our clients when they retain us is for your budgeting purposes, you're going to know how much the fee is and we'll have no reason to present the most expensive candidates because our fee is already in your budget and we're just going to be on your side of the table trying to find the best person at the most cost-effective salary compensation package. So I think it's a win and it's something that has worked for the clients. And you know the thing that and I know you know this we said it when you were there and we still say it 85% of our business every year is the same people and we're really proud of that because most search firms their repeat business is 6%. And why is that? And you know we laugh and say, well, we have an unstable product. You know and you know there's so many things that can go wrong when you're dealing with people, but we try and provide very I want to say a really strong relationship focus. I mean I tell clients. I don't want to just see you one time. We want a long-term relationship with you and that's really important to us and I think it makes a difference and I think the clients feel like we really care about being part of their team and that's really important to us. Dave: Yeah, that's great and I did experience that, and life's just more fun when you have happy repeat customers and clients Instead of people you try to squeeze for every last dollar for one time transaction. Jane: And you're well. I hope we don't have to see each other again. Right, you know it's like no, we want to be around for the long haul and I know you know this because but our first client from Grant Thornton, who's now 88 years old, is still a friend and a client and a mentor of the firm and we wouldn't really have it any other way. That means a lot to us. Dave: You know, one of the most valuable lessons you taught me was when I went into your office after I worked there about a year and a half and I just said, jane, I don't think this is for me and I don't know what I'm going to do, but I just want to set expectations. And you said hey, as long as you continue to do good work, you can stay. You know, as long as you want, right, I mean, just keep doing good work. And then the other thing you told me do you remember what you told me? You said, and it was very, it was good advice, but it was also clever on your end too. What did you tell me? Jane: I told you, no one will remember the job that you did, but everyone will remember how you leave. Dave: Yep, yep, that's so true and it's such simple advice, right? Because you work someplace for years and then all you really have to do to even make up for mistakes you made is just end on a really high note, right, you could have been a average employee, but just end on a high note and they'll all say, oh yeah, that change, she was great. She was great. We loved having her around. Jane: No, I remember that Because I mean I tell people I was not the best lawyer in the world, but I left, left. Like how do I transition my clients? How do I help train the new person? Can I be available after I'm gone? If I need to come in on a Saturday to help out? And I tell people when I make speeches no one will. You could be really bad at your job, but you can be a good, a great departing employee if you aren't a current employee. And that is just so true. And you know today, you never know when you're going to need a reference. Today, with everything so transparent, even if you don't give somebody as a reference, people will look on LinkedIn and say, oh well, I'm going to call this person and see how Betty was as an employee. So you're going to be found out, good or bad. So you might as well be the best ex-employee you can possibly be. Dave: I love it. Yeah, I know one of the things we did when I was with the team was we would do reference checks, and I think we would oftentimes do them even before the offer was extended. I forget. I think we did it both ways. Sometimes we did it subject to reference checks, sometimes we did the references first and I was always surprised. Every so often you'd find out people lied on their resume or exaggerated. But I imagine with social media and such, that's probably all gone away, right, nobody tries to get away with that anymore, I suppose do they? Jane: You know, dave, it's really interesting. Somebody asked me the other day what surprises you the most. That happens today, that happened 20 years ago. And the answer is exactly as you say. People still try and fudge. They'll say, well, I received an MBA when they did the coursework but didn't write the final paper. Or they'll be credit short of a college degree. Just last month we weren't at the final stages. But we try and check educational background and someone had on their resume they had on their LinkedIn received a bachelor's degree. And we check and there's no bachelor's degree. And they say, oh well, but I was only four hours short and I go. But four hours short does not a degree make, and I'm always surprised that. And people will have maybe a year gap where they're unemployed. And it's okay with COVID and all the changes that we have all gone through as a country, as a business community, it's okay that you have gaps, but it's not okay to misrepresent the gaps and sometimes you'll have people go. Oh well, you know, it was during COVID, I'll just kind of fudge it a little bit. And you're always going to be found out almost every single time, and I'm always surprised that people still do it, though, but even at the highest levels, dave, they still do it Like even like at the C-suite level, you mean. Yeah, at the C-suite level. You know, I wrote an article as a commentator for MSNBC 10 years ago because the CEO of, I think, hp said he had a degree in computer science, but it was a degree in history, you know, which is a pretty big difference. And I wrote an article saying and this was even before the proliferation of social media 10 years ago and I said you will be found out. This guy did, and it was very public and it was he got fired from H. It was a big deal and I was like do not let it stand. If you fudged, go fix it, fess up. Dave: The irony was, if he was, you know, at that level, he probably had graduated at least 25 years earlier. So the irony was his degree had no nothing to do with his current level. Yeah, nobody cared, except that he lied about it. If somebody lies about something that can be checked. What are they lying about that can't be checked, right? Jane: Exactly Well. And the other thing is, when you think about somebody's personal branding, wouldn't it make a great story? Hey guys, I don't know. I had a history degree and look how good I am. I'm running HP now and I had to leave the hospital. But to say he had a computer science degree. I mean it made no sense. But people do that still and I always tell people I know some of your listeners are small businesses where they don't have huge departments but one of the most important things you can do is do background checks and reference checks, unofficial and official, because people they never will stop doing it and no matter how many commentators tell them don't do it, they do it. Dave: Well, you know, I guess it's time for me to go update my LinkedIn. For all these years, jane, I've been telling the world that I was the CEO of the Alexander Group and you worked for me, so I think I'd better go fix that before it backfires. Jane: Well, you know, people always say how did you get the name the Alexander Group? And we, truly the name Alexander kind of has a masculine kind of connotation and you know, even when you were with us, dave, we would get calls once a week going Mr Alexander, please, yeah, and so so. So I think you just, I think not only did you say you were CEO, I think your name you've been passing off your name is David Alexander, right. Dave: That could very well be and I learned so much about presentation because, you know, when I was there, a lot of the the recruiters were young, you know, fresh out of college. The recruiters were young, you know, fresh out of college, and you know you and John did a great job of mentoring these folks and developing them. But it was always so interesting that, you know, we had a pretty casual environment and back then you would leave a message for a candidate and they would call back the main switchboard. I don't know we've, I don't think we even had direct dial numbers back then and they'd call back and switchboard. I don't know, I don't think we even had direct dial numbers back then. And they'd call back and here's this scruffy 23-year-old unshaven guy wearing, you know, birkenstocks to work, named you know Tom, let's say. And when the person would call back and they'd say, yeah, tom Smith, please you train the receptionist to say, oh, hold on. May I ask Mr Smith, you know who's calling you? know, just to I mean there's no harm in saying Mr Smith because that is his name, but why say, oh yeah, let me see if Tommy Boy's you know done, you know done having his afternoon tequila shot, right, I mean there's no use in. Jane: No, it was all about. It was all about the, you know, because we were so small in Scruffy and the other thing we would do would be to say I'd train the receptionist to go never say Mr Smith is not at his desk. Dave: Right, he is not at his desk. Jane: Right, he is not in his office and I will have one of his assistants call you back. Dave: Nice, nice, one of them. I like that. Jane: I know, I mean, you know, I just am blushing, thinking about what we did to make ourselves sound substantial. And there's Tommy Smith back in the back office, sound asleep at his desk, you know. Dave: Exactly. Jane: And sometimes I go, oh well, and sometimes you know candidates would call back. Well, is Tommy Smith calling me? And if I happen to be at the office late at night, you know some of it is the smoke and mirrors of making yourself sound like you're Well, I remember when I would like when you or John would be like traveling. Dave: I would try to book the mother BD. Right, you're interviewing folks in Kansas City, what other companies are headquartered in Kansas City or just other things. And one of the things that the things I did that I learned a lot about this is that even though you and John were based in Houston, if I was trying to set up Houston appointments, I would act as if you and John were based in San Francisco, like I'd say oh, you know Miss Howes will be in, you know she'll be in Houston for two days next week. You know she'll. she won't be in the San Francisco office, she'll be in the Houston office for two days Now the reality is you were going to be there for two weeks, but you were going to be there for those two days and it was what's the biblical saying you can't be a prophet in your own homeland. And I think it's still true to this day that expert from out of town and they rearrange their schedule for the person from out of town. Jane: Well, you know, there's a Buddhist saying that says the visitor from afar brings knowledge and I like that. Dave: I like that. Jane: And you know, sometimes I get asked to talk to college students about how our young people, about how do you find jobs, and my clients, kids, want to know how do we find a job. And I don't I'm not a career counselor but what I tell them is the further like if you went to NYU, say you're going to have more success calling NYU alums in Houston trying to get them to help you than you will in New York City. If you're a University of Houston graduate and you're in San Francisco, there's probably only 20 of you in the whole town and all people are hardwired to help people who come from afar. If there's a limited population and it goes kind of with that thing of being unique, like you know how many people come from Houston to San Francisco for a meeting. 20 years ago I mean it happened, but it wasn't every day that a head of human resources got that phone call right. Dave: In my business that it's easier for me to get an appointment in Syracuse, New York, if I'm going to be up there for business anyway. It's easier to get that appointment than it is with somebody in Houston, Because in Houston they're just like I'm busy this week, you know. Call me next month, you know, because you're so available. It's just like it seems like if you're meeting somebody for dinner, the closer the restaurant, the more likely you are. The closer the restaurant, the more likely you are to be late, or the more likely I am to be late, because if I'm driving 30 minutes I'm going to allow 45 for traffic and stuff, but if it's three minutes away, I'm going to leave two minutes before the dinner and then exactly a stoplight pot ad and then the parking lot's full and yeah no, it is, but it is something about the further something is away. Jane: And I remember one of the ways I built up our and some of our first clients. Most of our first clients were California companies because California had more. They were more used to women in doing C-suite searches. But you know, I was in California every two weeks for probably 30 years and I would call and go well, I'm from Houston, I'm a woman-owned search firm, I'm going to be in LA, can I come see you? And we got a lot of great clients like Wells Fargo, warner Brothers, yeah, a lot of McKesson company, because they were like oh, the visitor from afar they're coming to, they're coming from Houston and they're women in the search business Great, they're coming from Houston and they're women in the search business Great, you know. And I I spent a lot of time where people would go well, I have time tomorrow morning at 11 o'clock and I'm going to be there. And I quickly hung up the phone and called United and called Continental Airlines and started booking that airline ticket as fast as I could. Dave: Yeah, I do remember my listeners love stories. What are some stories of just interesting or amusing or candidate screw up things that come to mind where, yeah, I don't know a candidate showed up intoxicated or a candidate showed up and forgot to put pants on that day, you know. I don't know a candidate showed up intoxicated, or a candidate showed up and forgot to put pants on that day. Jane: You know, I remember way back in the early days one of my first big searches was a senior lending officer for a regional bank here and the candidate was great and it was. I was so excited and so I called the CEO of the bank after the interview and I said Rex, how did the interview go? He goes, jane, he didn't come. I said he didn't come. What the hell? Why didn't he come? He said, oh, it was okay. He drove through the teller window and passed a note to the teller to pass to me that he wouldn't. He changed his mind, you know, and you just go, who drives through the go in for the interview but drives through and says will you give this note, handwritten note on a scrap of paper I'm not coming. And so that was kind of the early days. A second story, and I mean it's crazy what we did back in the early days but one client wanted us to live in LA and take over all their staffing for it. This is when we were hourly billing and we were pretty cheap and they said, yeah, we'll get your room at the Biltmore Hotel in downtown LA. We want you there for a month and we're trying to figure out how to save money, because back then, you know, we just wanted to be and so we bought Dave a $700 car so we wouldn't have rental car charges, and we called it the gray ghost. It was a delta 80 and we drove this car and I am embarrassed to tell you, and I hope your listeners will think we were really creative rather than really cheesy but when we were done with the car, when we finished the search and the client actually is still a client in other iterations we just left the car at a Friday's Marina Del Rey and that was it, because it was on its last legs, you know, and we just that was it. We just left the keys in the car and that was it. Dave: That was it. We just left the keys in the car and that was it. You know you reminded me of something. A good friend of mine owes you his job because you just reminded me of something and I know I learned this from you. So it's really good friend of mine. Cpa, a classic, stereotypical CPA, introverted, not very outgoing but very technically sound, and he was working at a public accounting firm and he was kind of stuck at the senior level. He couldn't get promoted to manager, which usually happens after like five years. And there's a firm in town that I knew a guy there and they were looking for like a first year audit manager. So he was perfect for it. Looking for like a first year audit manager, so he was perfect for it. And so the three of us met for a drink at Papa Do's on Westheimer, over in the Galleria. But I told him ahead of time. I said Pete, he is. I'm just going to tell you right now, he's not Mr Personality. If you're looking for a glad handing, you know, outgoing salesman type, he's not the right guy for you. And so, of course, what did he say? No, we're not looking for a salesman, we're looking for a manager, right, somebody technically solid. So we met and afterwards we had a good time. And afterwards I said so what'd you think? And he said I'm glad you told me that he wasn't Mr Personality, because I was kind of prepared for it. And he did the same thing when they met with the people at the firm. He told them on the front end hey, this guy's not Mr Personality, but he's really smart. I think he can do the job. And 30 years later he's a senior partner at this Houston CPA firm and I know I learned that line from you. Now let me just tell you this person's not Mr Personality. Does that sound like something you might've said for? Jane: Yeah, well, you know what I mean. Part of what I look at a recruiter's job, an executive search person's job, is you tell the client what's wrong or what's missing, because they're smart and they're going to get it themselves. And if you tell them, you are adding value, you're being a consultant and you've managed expectations. So when we do a search, we write a paper, basically a report. These are the things that might not exactly fit, but these are the things that overcome what you are looking for. And which reminds me of one more story. I remember doing a audit partner search, for I think it was Grant Thornton up in St Louis and it was in Chicago actually, and so, as you recall, we would fly to the cities, park ourselves at a hotel restaurant and just sit there and make that our office. It was pretty soon, and so I got to O'Hare sitting down and my 3 o'clock appointment comes up at one o'clock and I go buddy, you're here a little bit early. He said, oh, yeah, yeah, I've heard great things about the Alexander group and I'm just going to sit at this next table and watch you in action. And I'm like, well, buddy, that's just not going, not gonna. And mentally I'm thinking well, buddy is no longer a candidate, but he wanted to sit and listen in on every other interview so he could get some good tips of how to interview himself, and anyway not a bad idea if he had just simply kept that information to himself. Right and not done it when I'd already started the interview. You know, I mean, I kind of lost two candidates right in one sitting. You know, you can't make this stuff up. Dave: That is something. I got a question somewhat related to search. Some of this conversation is about executive search. Right, we probably should have at least maybe a third of it about search. What about board members? So you know, I've got clients who ran, built, ran, sold $50 million revenue successful privately held companies, sold $50 million revenue, successful privately held companies. And they maybe think, yeah, I might like to be serve on a board. Now for somebody to be on a public company board do they need public company experience? Jane: You know, Dave, I think the question as I'm kind of rounding third base in my career and a lot of my peers are in their 60s and they're finishing, They've sold their private company, they retired from a public company. They, for whatever reason, they say well, you know, I'm going to retire, I'm going to, I want to be on a board. Can I get on a board? My answer is always this yes. However, it's a question of how much time do you want to spend to get on your first board? Once you get on one board, even if you're a private company executive, can you get on a public board, Asterisk, if you're willing to really work hard on at that. The average board tenure is 10 years. Board positions don't really turn over that much of a healthy company. So people get on a board and especially if it's a public board, there's incentive comp, there's options. It's not a hard gig for a lot of companies. So the answer is yes. And then what do you do if you want to get on a board? If you want to get on a board? Probably 70 percent of all board positions are not gotten through search firms. Does that surprise you? Dave: Maybe, yeah, maybe some. It's the network, the network of the other board members. Jane: Yeah, yeah, because people will say, oh well, I know somebody I'm going to, I'll go back to my UT alum group and see if they, you know, kind of knows around there. Or I'll see if, oh, I know a guy that works at Goldman Sachs, Maybe he knows somebody. I know a friend that's a part retiring from Ernst Young and I'll ask her. And so there's a lot of you know, with the call for diversity, search firms are becoming more involved but and doing more and 30% is still a lot to be putting out to search. But so the things that if any of your listeners are interested, I tell people, If any of your listeners are interested, I tell people, do a board resume. A board resume is different than a job resume. It's talking about your experience assessing risk, building a company, governance compliance, things that a board member would look at, governance compliance things that a board member would look at and the board members not looking at the details of you know, do you get two weeks or three weeks for vacation? They're looking at what's our strategic plan, the being the boss of the ceo, representing shareholders. So you want a board, one page board resume that talks about what you've done. That would be analogous to that. And then you really want to get on. A not-for-profit board Helps because, especially if it's big enough, there will be other corporate people there and you will make contacts. But it's really about making contacts. A lot of investment banks they don't use search firms when they take a company public. They have databases, they go through their contacts. Bankers know people. It's all about the three sources. I would say. If any of your listeners are saying I want to be on a board one day, do you know anybody in investment banking, private equity, public accounting, M&A law firms anybody like that and tell everybody you're looking for those recommendations. And then the last thing is a lot of your listeners are successful people who've had roles in companies that are entrepreneurial in nature, and a lot of them I know people that have taught an entrepreneurship class or a lecturer at Rice University here. And there's a lot of smart kids who are starting businesses. Let's not forget Google, Facebook, some of these companies that started from college kids, and I think that's a great avenue to think about when, if you're thinking about ways to get on a board. Dave: I like it. That's really cool. Well, speaking of rounding third base, I can't believe how the time has flown by. I have just a couple other questions for you. One is I've heard about this great resignation. For you One is I've heard about this great resignation. What has been your experience? Is this trickled up to the C-suite and the board level, or is this a problem that those people are having to deal with? People lower in the organization? Tell me about the great resignation from your perspective. Jane: Well, one thing hasn't changed. If you look at CEOs of Fortune 500 companies that are recruited from the outside, I would say they have a 50% chance of being there two to three years out. And why is that? Culture fit so the top. You will always have CEO changes, especially if they come from outside and they don't fit with the culture. What I think we are seeing and we see from our clients is post-COVID. There's been so many obvious changes but a lot of things that aren't obvious. People don't want to relocate as much as they might have pre-COVID. Why is that? Well, covid scared people in terms of my parents I've got to take care of my parents, I may have to have my kids at home for high school, and do I want to go to someplace new and have something like that happen? So I think you're having that we're coming out of. But you're also having middle range employees who aren't as loyal, and you know I always tease that a lot of the younger people today. If they have a bad Monday, they may be somebody someplace else by Friday. So I think there's not quite that dickiness of what you grew up with and I grew up with. Hey, you know we want to. You know we don't want to be a quote job hopper and I think people today don't care if they're job hoppers quite as much. And there's not that people are more willing. I think in COVID accentuated that where they're more willing to take risk. And, you know, maybe I'll be without a job for a month, two months, and yeah, I think we're seeing that. And what I tell small businesses that you know be focusing on long how do you make a culture that will keep people invested long term? And there've been a lot written on that and it's different for every company depending on where your location is and what your employee mix. But I think that's a really important thing that everybody's got to do in a bigger way. And also, lastly, dave, the emphasis on mental health, something that has changed dramatically in the last three years, where you know we've got to take care of people financially. And also, how are they doing? Because so many people were isolated during COVID and had mental health issues and people talk about that more, which we never did back in the day. You just bucked it up and, you know, kept making those source calls, dave, you know. Dave: For every six you made, you got to check off a tenth of an hour of work. Jane: Exactly. You had to make a left message with 10 people to get that six. I had it backwards. Dave: It was even harder than I remembered. That's why you get so excited if somebody answered the phone because that, even if you only talk 30 seconds, you got to put them down as a yeah, no, that's right they go no, I'm not interested and you go, that's OK. Jane: Awesome, ten minutes ahead here. Dave: That is great. So so I think the two questions left, so one. Is there anything that I did not ask you that you wish I had? Is there anything we did not talk about that you think we should have? Jane: No, you're a really good interviewer, Dave, which? Dave: I learned it from you. I learned it starts with interviewing candidates and it translates to other things. Jane: Well, I'm, you know, I'm really honored to be here, dave, because the people that you serve and that you do work for. I think it is much harder to run a smaller private company than it is a big company, because you've got to have employees who are multifaceted, You've got to have employees who have an entrepreneurial mindset, you've got to have employees who have an entrepreneurial mindset. So my hat is off to the work you do the clients that you serve, because it is a hard business. Dave: Well, I appreciate that. I love serving entrepreneurs, that is for sure. So here's the last question. This is a curveball one you may remember. When you asked if you need to do any preparation, I said no, we're just going to talk about your life story and you don't need any prep. But I promise you one curveball, and here it is. Are you ready? If you could go back in time and give advice to your 25 or 28 year old self, what advice might you give yourself? Jane: Yeah, oh, that is a great. That is a great question. Don't sweat the small stuff and it's all small stuff. Dave: Okay. Jane: And the things that you worry about about 90% of them do not materialize. Dave: Was that? Was it Mark Twain or Will Rogers? I always get their two quotes conflated. But one of them said I'm an old man, man, and in my life I've known a great many. I've known a great many difficulties, most of which never came to pass, or something to that effect yes, that's right. Jane: And Mark Twain, as you will recall from our time together, said I didn't have time to write a short story, so I wrote a long story, right? Dave: Exactly. Yeah, I learned a lot about incise writing and just I'm always amazed that people that just the simplest stuff that I never picked up in English class. Like you know, bob is a person who does XYZ, he's not. It's not Bob that does something, it's Bob. Bob's not a that, he's a who. Jane: That's, that's right and word choice, and. But you know I, you know I sound like a geezer, but you know stuff like that is. I mean a lot of people today really don't know that. I mean even you know I see at the executive ranks a lot of people who, who just, and you know, I think one of the things when I talk to people early in their career is learn to write, learn business writing out there. I mean especially now with Zoom and you can do business with people by email A lot of people. And if I get a resume from somebody that doesn't spell check or anything else. Dave, one final story, and it's so good and it reminds me. It does remind me of you for obvious reasons, but I don't know if you remember that we sent a letter out one time when you joined, maybe when you rejoined us, and we said Dave is from you know, arthur Anderson, a leading public accounting firm, but we left out the L of public. Do you remember that? Dave: I remember that does sound familiar. I remember somebody saying well, I don't know what it is, but we want some right, that's funny because, yeah, when you send out as many, as much written correspondence as the firm has for so long, it can't try as you might, it can't all be perfect. Just like I'm amazed when I read, like a bestselling book that sold 20 million copies and you find a typo. You're like but you know, when I talked to an author about that they said, yeah, there's, you know, 100,000 words in here, like you, just sometimes they slip through the cracks. Jane: Well, Dave, I the thing I remember about you and I always feel like I can learn something from everybody, even though there's an you're younger than I am. But even back when you were really young and with us, you were so effective at client communication and getting business. And do you remember that? You are the ones that taught us that people are hardwired to want to help, but you have to give them a way to help you. And you would come up with a list, Like, do you know people from any of these five companies? And people would look at and go, oh yeah, I can help you, I do know somebody from here. And what a great way to teach someone how to develop their own clients as to teach the client how to help the potential client or source how to help them. Dave: Well, that's one of the benefits of being a bad employee who changed jobs every year is I was exposed to a lot of things. I learned that in the financial services business and what made it so powerful was because in the financial services business you're always trying to get you know referrals to folks and if you just say, hey, jane, you know who, do you know who's looking to buy life insurance, probably nobody comes to mind. Nobody, because nobody's come up and said hey, I need life insurance. Do you know anyone? But what I learned in that is still helpful today. But instead, if you give somebody a list of 10 people and you say, jane, I'm going to be calling these 10 people next week, I'm just curious, can you tell me, is there anyone on this list you think's particularly great or you think really highly of? And they'd say, oh sure, let me borrow your pen. They check off the before names, you're like great. And then I would say, hey, by chance, if you happen to talk to them before next week, will you tell them I'm going to call them and they, of course, would say, sure, I haven't talked to this guy. I went to law school in five years. It's unlikely I'm going to talk to him this week, but sure, I'll tell him, okay. And then, finally, jane, when I talked to John Lamar, is it appropriate to mention that you know that we had a conversation? You know that he came up in conversation? Sure, yeah, no problem. So then, when I would call the person, it was so easy. Hey, john Lamar, by chance did Jane Howes tell you I'd be calling? No, how's Jane doing? I haven't seen her since law school. Boy, she's really wonderful, I like Jane. And so, yeah, you know Jane. Huh, yeah, I haven't known her a long time. I haven't known her as long as I've known you. Meaning I've met her for 10 minutes, but all of my dealings with her were first rate, all of them. And then just say, hey, you know, jane had some nice things to say about you and she thought we might benefit from knowing meeting one another. You know, know, when are you? It was amazing how well that. But it all started with just having a list to start with, because there's a difference between if somebody like, let's say, that conversation went poorly and john lamar called you back and said, hey, why'd you have? that dave spray guy call me. Well, if you can say, I didn't tell him to call you. He already had your name. He was going to call you anyway he just asked me. Jane: Anyway, great guy, yeah right. Dave: He just wanted to know if you were a jerk or not. And apparently I was wrong because you're gonna give me a hard time. All I did was say you were a nice guy and and now you're giving me a hard time, but yeah and and dave. Jane: What I remember the funny thing was john lamar are my 30 year partner. He went to a meeting with you and he said jane, dave pulled out the list. And I said he pulled out the list. And he said yes, and it worked and we just like we were so nervous about the list. But, Dave, it really worked. Dave: It is funny. And the irony is, the time you pull the list out is when the meeting doesn't go well. You know, like it's a brief meeting and they're like no, my best man at my wedding is a partner at Horn Fairy. That's where all of our search goes. We'll never give it to anyone else. Well, now you have nothing to lose by pulling out the list. I mean, if they on the spot want to sign you up for some searches, well, just keep the list in your pocket. But and the irony was the worse the meeting goes, the more helpful. Jane: They would seem to be right because they kind of feel bad that you flew away from houston. Dave: You flew all the way from houston out to see them and they can't help you. So now, sure, I'll look at your list. I'll give you some. Jane: But it's true, the list, dave, I mean that is a course in business development and we were like God, that list is not going to work. But it works, it absolutely does. Dave: Well, and you know when I first used that this shows what how I approach business development when I was in the financial services business right at Arthur Anderson attorneys were my best prospects. So this was like 1990, excel hadn't even been invented, they were using Lotus one, two, three. And I bought the Martindale Hubble legal director. You remember this thing? The blue, yeah. Maybe it was an yeah, but it was a blue thing and what I did that I was so proud of myself. I went through that and I created a spreadsheet and I knew one attorney in Houston and he was like a second year attorney at some place and he went to U of H and I played basketball with him and I went and I had lunch with him and I pulled out the graduates from like the top 20 law firms in Houston and I'm sorted by year in college. So the first list I gave him was all of the people who graduated from law school, the ones in his start class. And then I gave him a list of all the other U of H grads who were like a couple of years older to a year younger Same thing, who do you know? And then I made the call to them and then, jane, it got to be so crazy. I would go to like V&E and I would be there like I'd have like 12 meetings in a row, like, and they would literally walk me from one office to the next and they'd be like, hey, so who's next on your list? Oh, bob. Oh, he's a hoot, yeah, you'll enjoy meeting him. And so they would escort me into the office. It was like it was this introduction from one stranger to another one, but then the new person I would meet with. So you know, lauren introduced me to a guy who started with him that went to UT, so I would have all the other UT guys at his firm and at the other firms in town and it just exploded. Like in three or four months I was like the guy for all the third year attorneys at Baker Botts and V&E and Fulbright, but anyway, that is so fun, but it works, dave, and it's something you know. Jane: 15, 20 years later I still remember. Quote the list. Dave: Yeah, yeah, some great times. So, jane, thank you so much for not only inviting me to the 40th anniversary party that was just spectacular. Seeing some of my former colleagues, that was just great and just having the ability to be friends with you and your husband and John Lamar all these years is very special. I like to say there's only one ex-girlfriend I keep in touch with and there's only one ex-employer I keep in touch with, and that's you all when you are a VIP favored status. Jane: you work for us twice and we keep hoping that phone will ring the third time, dave, and it'll be the charm. Dave: Yeah, you never know. And I would jokingly say I did two tours of duty which you know doesn't really sound very complimentary to the firm. I must say, tour of duty has a certain negativity to it in a way, you know, conscription drafted. Jane: Yes, it's. At least it's not like prison sentence. You know I'll give you that. Dave: That is awesome. Well, Jane, I could talk all day to you. Thank you so much. I really appreciate everything. Jane: Oh, my pleasure, Dave. How much fun this has been. Dave: It has been have a great day. Jane: Thanks, Dave Bye. Special Guest: Jane Howze.

In today's episode of the IC-DISC show, Eric Miller from the Export-Import Bank of the United States (EX-IM) provides valuable insights into how this 90-year-old institution supports American exporters through strategic financial services. I also learned that EX-IM is one of just two governmental agencies that is an actual profit center. ​ Before joining EX-IM, Eric worked for a privately-held exporter that was a customer of EX-IM. His expertise both inside and outside of EX-IM sheds light on crucial products like export credit insurance, export financing, and financing for foreign buyers. These solutions can alleviate common hurdles inhibiting international trade growth. ​ We also talk through some real-world examples of these various EXIM solutions. This is a must-listen episode for any company doing substantial direct exports.   SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Eric Miller from the Export-Import Bank of the United States (Ex-Im Bank) discusses the role of the bank in aiding exporting companies with financial services, operating without costing taxpayers. We delve into how Ex-Im Bank and the Small Business Administration (SBA) offer loan guarantees and insurance to boost companies' borrowing capacity. Eric shares insights into export credit insurance and how Ex-Im Bank's products can help resolve common financial challenges in international transactions. The discussion covers Ex-Im Bank's new domestic project finance product, designed to support projects that have a significant export component. We touch on the requirement for a U.S. majority in product content, aiming to foster manufacturing and job growth in the United States. Eric explains the importance of services, like engineering and architectural services for foreign projects, requiring a U.S. majority for cost. We discuss government resources that can aid businesses in exporting, such as tax incentives and the Gold Key service provided by the U.S. Commercial Services. The episode highlights the STEP grant, a federal program managed by states to support companies with export-related expenses. Eric and I settle the Tex-Mex vs. BBQ debate with an appreciation for both, adding a lighthearted twist to the episode. Contact information for Eric Miller is shared for listeners who wish to connect and further explore export financing options. Contact Details [Email] (eric.miller@xmexim.gov) [Phone Number] (713-306-7969) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About Export-Import Bank of the United States GUEST Eric MillerAbout Eric TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hi, this is David Spray. Welcome to another episode of the IC Disc Show. My guest today is Eric Miller of the Export-Import Bank of the United States, colloquially known by the acronym of XM. More useful takeaways for privately held exporting companies than any guest I've ever had. We talked about the history of the XM, its purpose and the four service offerings that they have for privately held exporting businesses. We also talked about three other governmental arms that can also be of value. The other interesting thing about Eric is he actually was a customer of XM early in his career when he was a minority owner of an exporting business. So Eric's a really dynamic guy. He's really passionate about serving exporting companies and he really understands what it's like to be in the shoes of their customers. I really recommend you take a listen to this one. It's really valuable hey good morning Eric. Welcome to the podcast. Eric: Thank you, Dave. It's a pleasure to be here. It's an honor. Thank you. Dave: Well, the pleasure is all mine. So where are you connecting from today? What part of the world are you in at the moment? Eric: The great state of Texas. I'm in the Houston area, born and raised in Texas and been all over the world, but this is home. Oh, that's awesome. Dave: In fact, I think you even stayed close for college, right. Eric: I did. I'm a Cougar alumni, so a proud Houston native. Dave: Awesome, so I'm really excited to have you on. You are with the Export Import Bank of the United States, correct? Correct so we also go by XM Bank, sorry. Eric: Yep. Dave: So tell me about XM, tell me about the kind of the history of the organization and why it exists, and then we'll get it. We'll see where the conversation goes. Eric: Yeah, no, it's a good question. I'm biased, of course, working here, but I think it's one of the most fascinating government agencies that exist. We're set up in the executive branch of the federal government. We've been around for 90 years. Most people haven't heard of us. We are small. We've got anywhere between 400 and 500 people as a part of the agency. Most are headquartered in Washington DC, but we do have a dozen regional offices scattered throughout the US and all the major cities. I cover the Houston office and in doing so, I work with exporters in the great state of Texas and help them export more US made products and services. That's really what we're about here at XM Bank is supporting our US companies that are exporting a US made good or service. We're on the finance side of that help. There's other government agencies. Throughout the whole process of a transaction, whether it's finding buyers, whether it's financing a transaction or even getting grant money to help you export. There's other support, but EXIM is specific on the finance piece. Dave: Okay, and so does EXIM. At the end of the day, you know, does this cost taxpayers, you know, billions of dollars to have this thing in place. Eric: Yeah, that's another good question. So you know, we're one of the few agencies historically that have actually built a surplus of money for the taxpayer. In other words, we're using less than we're making and we send money back to Treasury. It changes year to year, but historically, if you look over the past you the past 20, 30 years we're generating a surplus and sending that back to treasury, so costing taxpayers billions of dollars. No, we like to operate a little differently than a government agency. We are an independent government agency, which means we're not inside a cabinet, but we are set up in the executive branch and we like to say we run at the speed of business Internally, we're very efficient, we're very effective and we're very aggressive, trying to reach out to US companies and get them involved in helping them. Dave: Well, that is awesome. I think it sounds like just a win, right. It's a win for the taxpayers. It's actually a profit center, if you will, for the taxpayers. It's good for the exporters, it's good for the country. Am I correct? I think the only other government agency I've ever heard of that's a profit center is like the Patent and Trademark Office. Have you heard that too? Eric: I think you're right. Now, I haven't researched that myself, just in passing and conversations I've heard of the same and there might be one or two others out there. But yeah, it's an unusual feat of a government agency to kind of generate that surplus for a taxpayer and send it back to Treasury. We do charge, you know, fees and that's how the agency itself makes and brings in money. We charge fees for our different products and you know we have products like export credit insurance. To just kind of dive into what we do, yeah, let's do that In export credit insurance to just kind of dive into what we do yeah let's do that In export credit insurance. So let me take a couple steps back. When an exporter engages in international business, when they find a foreign buyer in a country and they say, hey, here's what I sell, whether it's a product or service, there's always a sticking point. If you will product or service, there's always a sticking point if you will in the negotiations, when it comes to money flow. And what I mean by that is the exporter will say, hey, I'll ship my product or I'll do the service, but go ahead and wire me money before I ship it. And then the importer, the buyer there's always a reluctance to say well, I don't want to wire you money, because what if you close your doors? I never hear from you again. So when there's a new relationship and there's a transaction that's trying to occur, money, the movement of money, is always a sticking point. Who sends it first? And exporters lose a lot of deals because of this. I speak to exporters on a daily basis and every week there's at least one that says I wish I would have known about this. It would have helped me with the last negotiation I had with a foreign buyer who said you know, ship me the product on open account and I'll pay you 60 days later. I wasn't comfortable with that as an exporter so I closed the door and lost the deal. So XM gets involved and we say no, go ahead. And you know, if they're asking for credit terms, go ahead and provide that to them and we will back you up on the payment. We will insure that receivable from default. So if something goes wrong and the foreign buyer doesn't pay back the exporter as intended, we will insure it. They put a claim into us. So when I say claim, just like any other insurance policy, right, you're driving a car and you get to an accident, you file a claim. Something goes wrong with the house, you file a claim with the home insurance provider. We're no different. We're an insurance provider on foreign receivables and the government gets involved in this space because you know, david, look at the trade deficit. Last year we're nearing a trillion dollars. Most years, from year to year in the last 10 years, it's getting worse and worse. So what I mean by that is we're bringing in way more than we're sending out, and what we have found through our research as a government agency is the number one reason more US companies are not sending more product abroad is the number one reason is fear. They are fearful of what that process looks like and the government gets involved. Then we say let's take away that fear. We'll put the risk on our shoulders as it relates to credit insurance. Go ahead and give your foreign buyer terms or open account. We'll shoulder the risk and if they don't pay you, we'll pay you. And we want to help the trade deficit. We want to as a government agency. We want to stimulate US manufacturing. We want to create jobs through exports. That's really what the mission is here at Ex-Im Bank. Dave: Okay, yeah, no, that's really good. And do you specifically underwrite each customer? You know each foreign customer, or is there just you guys? Just use some general parameters. Eric: Yeah, no, it's a good question, like what does that process look like? So we have four different credit insurance policies. We can do everything from hey, we'll underwrite every buyer if you're not comfortable with it. Or hey, we'll give you a policy where you can do your own underwriting according to our credit standards but give you that autonomy inside your company to do it without coming to us every time there's a buyer. So there's different approaches. Most exporters like the autonomy because they can approve a credit right then and there, rather than sending us the paperwork and then us process it and then get back to them. So it just depends on timeline. But yeah, we can do either. Dave: And does the policy insure 100% of the invoice or is there a co-insurance piece where your customer is taking some of the risk? Eric: So the coverage will be anywhere from 90 or 95%, depending on which policy. Most of them are in that 95% range, but some of them are in the 90. Okay, they have the option. Dave: Yeah. So it's enough that as long as the company's got decent margins right, if their margin's greater than 5% or 10%, then their risk is just if a deal goes bad. They didn't make any money on that deal. Eric: That's a fair way of looking at it? Dave: Yep, but they have enough skin in the game that they do want to make a profit on that transaction. They want to all that trouble. So they have a motivation to not, you know, sell to people who you know they have serious concerns about their ethics or integrity or ability to pay. Eric: Exactly, and that's really what it's all about. Hey, I've got a new relationship and you know, name a country. They're asking for open account. And open account, you know, most people are comfortable with that in the US. They have a recourse in mind. Hey, if I don't pay, here's the process where I can recoup. But that all goes away when you send it to a foreign country. Like you know, how do I even get my money if I don't? I'm dealing with a different legal environment, political currency, culture, I mean. The list goes on and on. So that's where, wherein lies the fear for the exporter. And there's government agencies, both local, state and federal, all of them. We want to surround the exporter, prop them up, take away the fear, shoulder the risk and get them comfortable in international business. Dave: Okay, so you may mention the one person you were talking to that said they wish they'd known about XM because they kind of lost this deal. Do you have another case study, if you will, or example and obviously you don't have to mention the specific company by name where everything did work out kind of a success story, where maybe they were not exporting much but with this credit insurance it really helped them materially increase their sales? Do you have any examples like that, just to help people further understand? Eric: Oh yeah, we have a whole list of resources on our website. There's a section dedicated to success stories of all the different companies and we like to diversify the industry and the product and we've got you name it and it's probably up there. One that just immediately comes to mind is a company and they've been kind of a strong advocate of Ex-Im Bank. They're called BuzzBalls and it's alcohol manufactured here in Texas in the Dallas area, and they were very successful domestically. I mean, you can find these little alcohol glasses basically in any kind of retail store in the US. But as they looked abroad they wanted to de-risk a lot of their open account with distributors and really I think the last I heard they either doubled or tripled the revenue by focusing on foreign buyers, distributing it to the distributors, the foreign distributors giving them credit to pay and Ex-Im Bank insuring the risk. I mean, it's just one interesting example that you know, if little cups of alcohol can move abroad, mostly anything can. Dave: Oh, that's great, I love that and thank you for that. Thank you for that example. So now let's say that a company is contemplating exporting and let's say they have this large potential order you know large for them, you say it's a $5 million company annual revenues and suddenly they have this pay for the materials from their supplier and they maybe don't have enough working capital to do that and maybe they're in a spot where you know a traditional bank loan or line of credit. They're maybe, just maybe what you'd call not bankable. What happens then? Does the whole process just fall apart? You know they've got the credit insurance but they don't have the cash to buy the goods. What happens then? Eric: Yeah, that's really the second big problem in international trade. So the US banking system in general is challenging to help US companies fill export orders, and what I mean by that is, in your example, a $5 million revenue company. It can even be bigger than that, it could be 20, 30, 40. The problem with a lot of US companies is when their foreign sales start to get significant and they go to the bank and say, hey, I need a line of credit, not just for my domestic business, I need it for my international too. There becomes a problem in the banking system. There's this view that it's high risk and, as bankers tend to be more conservative and shy away from risk, so most times US companies have problems getting the money they need to fill these export purchase orders. So government gets involved, Ex-Im gets involved and SBA also has a product similar to the Ex-Im bank. It varies according to the banker who wants to use the product, but the idea behind it is we become a guarantor of repayment to the lender. So in your example, $5 million a year company, $2 million foreign sale that we're going to insure they walk that over to the bank and they say, hey, I got insurance on the receivable. Great, it's a $2 million deal. Now I need a million bucks or whatever as a line of credit to build all this stuff or go out and buy it. The bank will say, okay, where's it going? Oh, it's leaving the country. I can't help you. But when you come back with a US purchase order, then we can get serious in our talks. The company is stranded and they can't get the money, the capital they need to fill these orders with working capital. So we get involved and we say, hey, if they're presenting financial statements and the financial statements merit the ability to borrow what they're asking for a million, whatever it is and you're only saying no because it's an export, go ahead and give them the money that they need that they're asking for again, as long as it meets the credit standards, and we'll co-sign, we become a repayment guarantor to that line of credit so they can have access to the money that they need to fill these foreign buyer purchase orders. Guarantees and insurance is really kind of what we're about here at Ex-Im Bank to enable this cross-border trade. On the finance piece, Now, with that line of credit that we guarantee, they could also use it to issue bid bonds or performance bonds or standby letters of credit. Because another problem in our banking system is when a exporter bids on a foreign tender, that tender sometimes will say hey, if you want to bid on this, you got to put up a performance bond or a bid bond and that kind of weeds out the non-serious suppliers versus the serious. And when they want to supply that bid bond and they go to the bank, put the equivalent amount of cash in your account, I'll escrow it and then issue the bond. And then the exporter you know has this confused look. And well, I don't want to pay for my own deal and block my own cash. So under the XM line of credit you can actually use borrowed money to issue those bid bonds, performance bonds, standby LCs at a reduced cash collateral, so you're not tying up your cash. Dave: Interesting. Eric: And what's the? Dave: typical I think the term like if you're factoring an invoice, it's called. I think it's called like the advance rate, like what percentage you could borrow, like on the you know the purchase order or the invoice that you create. What's that percentage? You know, through the XM financing. Eric: So we put it into two categories pre-export and post-export. Okay, pre-export is the working capital right, the inventory, work in process, finished goods. So under that you could borrow a 75% advance rate. Then post-export, once it becomes a receivable, you could borrow 90. So it's pretty generous advance rates and typically it helps exporters fill these purchase orders much easier if we weren't involved. Dave: Yeah, Cause I think I was a CFO of a company many years ago and we were growing rapidly and we're using factoring and the. It seems like the advance rate we were able to get on the factoring for domestic sales, let alone international, was only like 70 or 80%. So, and even I think I'm told that even if a company has a line of credit that they're backing with inventory and domestic receivables, that still a typical kind of advance rate is really only like I think, about 80. And so you're talking about an even higher, if I'm using the correct term, than what a traditional bank would provide to a traditional bankable customer for a domestic sale. Is that accurate, based on your knowledge? Eric: Yeah, very accurate. And sometimes you know I go back to the example of US banks don't like export orders, and they don't. Sometimes they will give an advantage. They've got a traditional line of credit set up for domestic. They may say we'll let you borrow 10, 20, 30% advance rate on the export stuff. With our guarantee we can expand that to 75, up to 90. So it could be that we expand the borrowing base or just let alone get them access to it for export orders, with our guarantee. Dave: Okay, yeah, this is really valuable and I can't wait to get the word out to our contacts. So, on the working capital piece so how does that work then? Is the process that they call up their bank and say, hey, do you guys do anything with XM and they just work purely through their banker? Or do they call you up and say, hey, we need some working capital? We don't really have a big banking relationship. Can you recommend somebody? Help me understand the logistics? Eric: of it, Absolutely. Yeah, it's a good question. We recommend starting with us. It's very easy to get lost in the banking system and trying to figure out who to talk to about getting the setup. A lot of time exporters will speak to their local relationship manager and they start talking about XM working capital and they're like you know who's XM? I don't, I don't even know what you're talking about. Slow down, so it's more efficient to start with us and if they're working with a bank that is in our lender network, we can go directly to the right person and connect them with the exporter to have those conversations. If they're working with a lender that is not inside our our network, we can still locate a lender to set up kind of a XM specific line of credit if that's something they want to pursue. Dave: Okay. Eric: Okay. Dave: Now this is really valuable. Does the bank have any other service lines besides the foreign receivables insurance and the working capital? Eric: We've got a couple others. One of them is called foreign buyer finance. Okay, this is a real interesting one. This is when a US company is selling capital equipment to a foreign buyer and when that capital equipment quotation gets to the foreign buyer, what we see often is they'll go to their bank. In some of these emerging markets, developing countries, the buyer will go to the bank and say, ok, you know, I got a quotation for, let's say, you know, john Deere equipment, ag equipment or Caterpillar, construction equipment or mining equipment, whatever. They go to their bank and they say I need to borrow to pay the US company for the equipment. And when they get a term sheet from their local bank, if you're familiar with international business and international finance, the cost can be much higher than what we're used to paying in the US as far as cost of capital Cost of capital I've seen even triple and quadruple in some of these developing markets. And then the buyer the deal falls to the wayside because the buyer can't afford to pay the bank all this cost associated with the capital. So in situations like that and kind of high cost capital markets, we can get involved and find a lender, as long as we've got good audited financial statements and they meet credit standards, we can find a lender to give that foreign buyer a term loan, a three to seven year term loan, of which we guarantee repayment of to the lender, to buy that US made capital equipment. So, in simple terms, we can finance a foreign buyer when the foreign buyer is buying US made equipment, and what we have found is the US companies that really know this product inside and out use that as a competitive advantage. They're saying, hey, sure, on one hand, here's my quotation for the equipment and on the other hand, I can get you finance if you need it. And I can get you finance if you need it. And the companies that do that well, I mean their sales shoot through the roof because now they become this finance facilitator for foreign buyers to access cheaper capital, which we've even seen companies where maybe they're 10% higher on the bid than some of the other countries, but they're saving them 15% on the finance. Dave: Yeah, I can see that. Yeah, I can see that that's really clever. I was familiar with the first two pieces, but I really was not familiar with that. I mean, yeah, that's a real competitive advantage. I mean it makes you wonder how a company in I don't know pick your country, brazil, that you know is trying to compete Like how do they compete when they can't? I'm guessing that they probably don't have the same type of capability to offer you know these, you know more attractive financing rates. Eric: So, yeah, that's a great point XM Bank we're also referred as an export credit agency, eca. So every developed country in the world has the equivalent of us. Out of, let's say, roughly 200 countries, there's 120 of us representing the nation of each country. So what we know is, as it relates to international business, there are, you know, foreign. When there's foreign competition in the tender, sometimes that foreign competition knows about their local ECA also. Right, so they could be offering the same thing. Hey, I can get you, you know, finance through my local ECA. You know name, a country, country. So we want companies in the US to be aware of how we can help them and support them, just like other member countries of partner ECAs do, because it's a competitive advantage and if they're not aware of it, it's a loss really for the exporter. And I mentioned four products. So we went over export credit insurance, the working capital getting the foreign buyer a loan, and then the fourth one. It came out about a year and a half ago. It's a new product that we're super excited about and it's really domestic project finance where there's an export nexus. And what I mean by that, david, is let's take an industry, let's take LNG. When an LNG liquid natural gas. When liquid natural gas projects in wherever let's call it Texas, when they go live and you've got a solid entity set up for the purpose of building an LNG plant maybe there's corporate shareholders, maybe there's individual shareholders, whatever it may be when banks take a look at this and they see that it's a domestic project finance structure meaning the off of any kind of contract will repay the loan Bankers don't like that. Bankers don't like project finance. If we look at a project where there's an export nexus and what we define as an export nexus is 25% of the sales will be exported we could potentially be a lender or a loan guarantor to that domestic project as long as there's going to be 25% foreign sales, and we could go down to 15% if it's a small business, so we can involve oh, that's really cool. Dave: Yeah, because I mentioned the bank is going to say, yeah, it sounds like a great opportunity. Go find some investors to fund this and then, once you start exporting the LNG, give us a call. We'll give you some working capital and you'll work with XM to ensure the receivables, but until then, hey, it's on you. Eric: That's it. That's the problem. That's where a lot of these projects get stuck in the banking system as it relates to traditional banking. They can't get the money they need to lift this project up, and it could be a great project, but yeah, banks like to see history right. I want to see your balance sheet income statement, cash flow last three years. Let me underwrite it Well, there is none. It's a new project and we're building it. Well, we can't help you Go find some investors, and that's typically the conversations. So, instead of these deals disappearing, as long as there is solid offtake agreements, we can look at that, potentially to repay the loan, and we do that on the foreign buyer side too. Dave: Yeah, and to be fair to the bankers I know many bankers and have great relationships If a bank is paying 5% for a deposit and they're lending it out at, say, 8%, by the time they pay their fees and stuff they really don't have a lot of margin left. So you know they have an imputed default rate. You know that they can tolerate of like half a percent, right, maybe 1%, right. I mean, that's just their model. Eric: Margins are thin, you're right. Dave: Yeah, and they're probably even I'm guessing even prohibited from saying okay, yeah, we'll finance this deal for you, but this is high risk. So instead of a 7% loan, it's gonna be 30%. I mean, the banks probably aren't even allowed to do. There's probably usury laws or something. Am I correct in that? Eric: Yeah, yeah. So they would definitely view the risk differently as a domestic project finance. But I would say, even more so, the regulatory issues involving domestic project finance probably prohibit the lenders from doing that. Dave: Even oh yeah, yeah, that's right. I never thought about that. Eric: There's definitely some challenges in that space. I never thought about that. There's definitely some challenges in that space. Dave: Yeah, that makes sense because really, from a holistic perspective, you would say hey, bank, this isn't your sweet spot. This is like venture capital, risk capital. Let them find a lender, like a hard asset lender, that'll charge a much higher rate, or let them raise equity capital to finance this. This isn't what you're designed for, mr First National Bank, Exactly. Eric: Okay. Dave: What are some of the limits, minimum maximums for these different products? Let's start with the credit insurance. Is there a minimum size that you all have insurance? Is there a minimum size like that you all have? I mean, I'm guessing if somebody has a hundred dollar foreign receivable that they want to insure, probably doesn't really make sense for everybody. So is there a minimum size? Is it a hard minimum or kind of a soft minimum? Eric: Yeah, that's a great question. So we don't have a minimum per se, documented minimum, but yeah, it's got to make sense right To go through the process. So I mean, we've insured receivables as low as a couple thousand bucks, so that's for credit insurance. For working capital we also don't have a minimum, but that's set by the lender. So we say hey, as long as the lender will do the loan, we'll take a look at the guarantee and most lenders that we have spoken to we probably would say that the minimum with most lenders is around a half a million for a working capital line of credit. And then on the foreign buyer side, again it's got to make sense to the lender. We don't have a minimum. Most lenders, I would say the minimum I've seen where a US lender would give a loan to a foreign buyer is also around a half a million. Maximum, no maximum, but anything above 25 million has to go to our board. The largest we did in the bank's history was in Mozambique, for an LNG facility was 5 billion. Oh wow. Dave: And then are there limits on the working capital and credit insurance, similar limits that require board approval. Eric: Anything above 25. Yep, it's the same 25 number, correct, which it's. You know it's not prohibitive, it just adds another layer to the process. Yeah. Dave: And even again, even if XM wasn't involved, I know a lot of banks, just you know, when loans get above a certain amount they want to syndicate them with other banks, just for their own risk. And I think a lot of times those syndication amounts for a medium-sized bank will start in that 10 to $25 million, as I understand it. And then what about the domestic projects that have 25% export expectations, any minimum or maximums there that you've seen? Eric: So I would say there's no hard set minimum, but the soft minimum I'm seeing is probably 5 million plus and the reason for that is the SBA, the Small Business Administration, also a federal government agency. They have similar products that go up to five, so this will take it past five and we don't want to compete with another government agency. They have similar products that go up to five, so this will take it past five and we don't want to compete with another government agency, so it's five below. Sba might be a better fit. Five above we're probably the only game in town. Okay, zero to five, taking some notes on this Five plus. Dave: You know, one of the other interesting things is we've had this conversation that if you think people have never heard of XM, they're even, I think, less likely to have heard of the ICDISC program. You know we specialize and what's interesting is how is the number of parallels? I mean, the thing that I can't, you know that blows me away is how logical everything is with XM. Like you know, there's a, you know there's a perhaps a belief that some government programs, agencies that there's no real logic to it. It was just it was some negotiation in Congress and they had just some arbitrary rules. But you know, as I kind of look at these, they just all seems very logical, right? And you know, like you know, above a certain amount you need board approval Again, just like in a bank, right, when they're doing a $25 million loan, it's probably got to go to a loan review committee or something. But the other thing is there's some similarities between XM and the ICDISC and one of them is the 51% US content. Can you explain how that works with XM, because I think it's pretty much the same as ICDISC. Eric: To my knowledge it is also yeah. So it goes back to really the mission right Creating jobs through US exports, and we want to stimulate US manufacturing. So we can't support a trade where you know Houston companies buying from China and sending it down to you know name a country in South America. There's no value add for the country. So Congress basically put a policy to the agency that says anything that we support has to be greater than 50% US content. So another way of saying it's just 51%. Right, majority of the product has to be US content, and the way that we calculate that is we look at the cost. So if they're selling a widget that they sell for $100, but it costs $70, we're going to look at the $70 and say $30 of that, 70 needs to be US content. So that's really we look at the cost and the majority of the cost needs to be US made, whether it's product. Dave: Or another way of saying it is no more than $36 foreign cost Yep, that makes sense. Eric: And if it's a service, by the way, sometimes we get these service questions, by the way, because sometimes we get these service questions where, hey, you know, I'm an engineering company designing, you know, a refinery plant for a foreign buyer. How do I look at that as far as US content? So what we do is we say, okay, start with your invoice. Right, whatever you're billing out, if it says engineering services or CAD drawings or whatever, take that and then look at the cost and greater than 50% needs to be US citizens or green card holders as part of that cost for services. So we basically look at the citizenship of the provider for evaluating US content and the cost. Dave: Yeah, and that's somewhat similar to the ICDISC really only includes two types of services that are eligible engineering services and architectural services for foreign construction projects or services that are an integral part of the sale. You know, like if you sell a product for a million dollars and there's a $200,000 installation service, as long as that's an integral part of the, you know the project that qualifies, you know that service does. But yeah, that's interesting. So let's say somebody says hey, you know, eric, I really like the sound of this and I'd like to talk to you. But you know, I just feel like you know, you're probably a lifelong government employee. You probably want to work right out of college. You don't know what it's like to sit in my shoes. You don't know what it's like to have been on the private side. You know having these foreign customers. What would you say to them? Eric: Yeah, so being a government employee is new to me also, yeah, so after college I started at a company and worked there for a decade, grew into sweat equity. I was a part minority shareholder and I was a customer of Ex-Im Bank for 10 years. Yeah, we were a company that exported capital equipment all over the world, but with a concentration in Sub-Saharan Africa. Okay, and we grew rapidly with the help of Ex-Im Bank. We used all the products of credit insurance, the working capital, getting the foreign buyer a loan and that really became a competitive advantage to the company. Because we looked at ourselves saying, hey, we're an equipment supplier, but so is the other hundreds of companies around, if not thousands of companies. How do we make ourselves different? And the finance became very important to that conversation, because you can Google, search equipment companies in the US and you're going through thousands of pages trying to find an equipment supplier. But not everybody is saying, hey, we have financial solutions too. If you need them, we can get you a loan. We can sell to you an open account with our insurance. We can get the capital we need to fill these export purchase orders. We can get the line of credit that we need to send bid bonds and performance bonds to some of these large tenders. So, going back to your question, I've been at Exxon for seven years, but the majority of my career was in the private sector and being a minority shareholder of a company that used the bank that I work for now to grow a small business. Dave: What a great story, like it would seem like you have the perfect background for your role I mean, you're actually a customer for your role. I mean you're actually a customer. So the private companies that you're trying to help you really do understand what it's like to be in their shoes. Eric: I think most employees that work here at ExxonMobil found we're very service oriented. We like to help. We like to help. It's fun for us to help. It's fun for me to help. The best part of my day is meeting small business exporters, helping them become aware of all the resources that are available to them to become more competitive and grow, like we did when I was with that company. Dave: Yeah, it's just amazing how similar our days are. That's also the favorite part of my job is when I get a phone call from somebody and they say hey, you know, bob said I should call you. You know we're. Our exports have really grown a lot, and there's this thing called ICDISC and you know, tell us about it, are we the right fit? And it's great to be able to help them. Oh, I was just going to ask you something. Oh, what about indirect exports? Do they qualify under an indirect export? Eric: Great question, yeah, so under the working capital it does. So if you have an exporter that's selling to you know name a major company, let's say a major oil and gas company who in turn is exporting that out, we call that an indirect export. That does qualify them to get the capital they need to fill that order. Dave: Yep, Another parallel with the IC disk. The IC disk is the same way. Yeah, Most of our clients are actually indirect exporters. So some of the products would not be as beneficial, you know, like the credit insurance, for example, because they don't have any foreign receivables. But you know, they don't have any foreign receivables, but they still may have use for some of the other products. Okay, so I've got just a couple more questions. Eric: Well, first off, is there anything we didn't cover that you wish I had? I would say there's other government resources that every exporter should know. Dave: Okay, what are those? Eric: Yeah, so one of them is the US Commercial Services. They're a part of the Department of Commerce and they've got an office in every major city in the US. I think there's a hundred, if I remember right, a hundred US Commercial Service offices scattered throughout the US. If you're in Houston, there's one in Houston. Great folks, we work with them closely. They've got some really good products as well for exporters. One of them is called the Gold Key, and the Gold Key it basically connects buyer and seller. So once the agency understands the company, they met with them. They understand the company, they understand what they're selling. They have to be what's called export ready. So an existing business that's already selling, let's say they're successful here domestically and they want to export. You know, let's say that to the, to our closest neighbors, first Canada and Mexico. But they're like hey, I don't, how do I even do that? How do I find a buyer, how do I find a distributor in these countries? That's really the first step in kind of the. The maze of exporting is first you got, you have to have a buyer. We're kind of second to that right. Once you have a buyer, then it's money talks and then we get involved. But even before us. The commercial services can get involved and under the gold key they can find distributors, partners, buyers in foreign markets. Wow, yeah, under the gold key. So they basically, once they understand the business, they work with the embassy in that country and say, hey, I've got, you know, bob, here's his company, been around for 10 years, successful in the U? S, but they want to start with Mexico. And can you find them buyers, can you find them distributors? And they try to play matchmaker. So they generate a list and they recommend going to the country that you want to export to shake hands, stare them in the face, sit down with them physically, because that's another important thing in international business you can't just stay behind the phone or email. You really have to go to these places. Dave: Wow, so that's amazing. Now the bad news, Eric, is you and XM may have just dropped to number two as far as my favorite government agency. I mean, depending on where a company is, that might be even more valuable, right? Because without the customers, they don't even need the other products of XM. That's really cruel. Eric: That's right yeah. I mean they need a buyer before they come to XM. They need a foreign buyer and commercial services can help with that. Dave: So be careful. You're about to list some other agencies and may further knock you down on the priority list, so be careful there. Eric: That's OK, we're here to help. So you know. Another problem with small businesses you know I'm selling domestically. You know successful I'm selling domestically. You know I'm successful. Maybe I'm running on thin margins. I don't have the capital that I need to go into all these countries and spend all this money and cross my fingers that I get business. And I just don't want to spend that kind of money and risk that kind of money because I need to keep my lights on and pay employees first. So there's something called the STEP grant S-T-E-P grant. Dave: STEP grant. Eric: It stands for statewide trade export promotion, so most states participate in it. It's federal money given to the states who in turn give grant money to companies who are looking to export, and they can use that grant money for travel you know, hotel, stay, airfare. They want to do website translation on their website from you know English to Mandarin and Spanish to. You know capture half the world. They want to. You know create design, create print flyers. You know any kind of marketing collateral that will aid them in promoting their company to foreign buyers. This is a reimbursable grant, which means you apply for it. You can say, hey, I want to go to Mexico, my airfare is going to cost this, my hotel is going to cost this, conference in Mexico is going to cost this, and all together it's going to be $10,000. So you apply for it and then, once approved, you can get up to 75% of that back. Dave: So you have to actually spend the money. Eric: First you got to spend. That's the key thing there. You got to spend the money, but you got to get it approved. Once it's approved, then you spend the money and then you come back and give them your receipts. Dave: Wow, that's pretty cool. Does that fall under one of the federal agencies? Is that kind of the ultimate umbrella, or is it really more of a state by state program? Eric: In Texas the Department of Ag is administering the fund and I think it does vary state by state on who holds the money and approves it and disperses the money, and I may be wrong, but I think it goes up to $10,000. It's either $7,500 or $10,000 max amount that can be approved. Okay, you can apply every year. Some companies do that. Okay, and what else? Are there some other? The SBA, small Business Administration Sure, most people know them for domestic business, but they also have an export arm called the OIT, which is Office of International Trade. So they have export finance products just like we do. They're not competitive to one another. They're slightly different in various aspects. They can get you working capital, usually for smaller loans, or they can get you something called an international trade loan and what that is used for is like, hey, I need to buy some capital equipment to go into my factory and it's going to cost a million bucks and it's going to generate export sales, that kind of finance structure. Dave: Is the structure kind of the same, or does the borrower have to put up a bigger percentage? Or do you know? Eric: For the international trade loan. I think it's similar. They guarantee the lender just like we guarantee the lender. The international trade loan I think it's similar. They guarantee the lender just like we guarantee the lender and lenders. You know, we like to say the lender makes the decision because our guarantees are slightly different than one another. So some lenders will say, hey, I'm more comfortable with XM, or hey, I'm more comfortable with the SBA, or hey, this is above $5 million. The only one you could do is XM Bank. So it's really up to the lender to evaluate the guarantee and what fits them best. Dave: Well, that is awesome. Any other government agencies that you tend to work with regularly those are the big ones. Eric: They'll always be in the same circles the SBA, the commercial services, and ourselves in the same circles, promoting as much as we can to our communities. Dave: That's awesome. Well, this has been so informative. I really appreciate the time. I just have two more questions, and they're really kind of fun ones, okay. So the first one is if you could go back in time and give advice to yourself, like right, when you were graduating college, what advice might you give to yourself? You know, with the benefit of hindsight, you know, if you kind of go back in time. Eric: What advice might you? Dave: give to yourself. You know, with the benefit of hindsight, you know if you kind of go back in time what advice might you give to yourself, you know? Things to do instead, or do sooner, or what comes to mind. Eric: That's a really good question, you know, going back in time, I would say, for the company that I worked for and some of the things that I don't like to say did wrong. But if we could repeat it and how we would do it differently. When the business grows and we grew fast our operational costs also grew fast and I think if we were better controlling the operational cost when there was a dip in revenue, there wouldn't be so much growing pains or slowing pains. I think getting a better grasp operationally on a business when it's going through the growth phase is key to its long-term success, because a business is not always going to accelerate up. There's going to be peaks and valleys and as long as you manage the operational cost of the company, it can get through. You know look at COVID right Nobody predicted that how many businesses went through all kinds of painful experiences. So that, going back in time, just from a business standpoint, I think that would have been super helpful in our judgment and assessment of looking towards the future. Dave: Okay, I really like that. Well, we just have one left, and this one's even more fun. Don't think about this, I just want. It's kind of a snap answer. Okay, so you're a native Texan, right Native Houstonian, tex-mex or barbecue. Eric: Oh, I got to go with Tex-Mex. I love barbecue, barbecue. Oh, I gotta go with tex-mex. I love barbecue, but you know the chips and queso and salsa and guacamole. Dave: I don't think everything competes with that. Yeah, I, I asked this question of all my guests and and I had two answers that were interesting. One answer was if it's, if I know that the food is going to be average, I, I absolutely would take the Tex-Mex, because Tex-Mex has more tolerance for averageness. Ok, they said. But if it's going to be world class, then they would take the barbecue. But they don't want mediocre, tough, dried out brisket. Ok, so I'm like, well, that's a good one. And then I had a guest telling me about I forget the name of the place, but it was a place that had like brisket tacos or brisket enchiladas, and they basically said both, they'll take both. Eric: There you go. I like that. Dave: Yeah, I am with you. If people want to get ahold of you, what's the best way to reach out? I know you're on LinkedIn. Are you very active on LinkedIn? Eric: Not super active on LinkedIn, but I'm very accessible Cell phone, email, office phone. You can always get ahold of me. Dave: What's the email address? Eric: So ericmiller M-I-L--LE-R X-M-E-X-I-Mgov gov. Dave: So eric.miller@xmexim.gov and if they want to just call you, what's the best number to reach you? Eric: at 713-306-7969 awesome. Dave: well, thank you so much for taking the time to come on here. This may be the most information dense episode I've ever done for an exporter. Usually it seems like we've got one or two good nuggets, but we may have a dozen takeaways, so thank you so much for making time out of your day and this has really been fun. And don't be surprised when this goes live if you don't have a few folks reaching out to you. Eric: I look forward to it. Thanks for having me. It's been an honor. Special Guest: Eric Miller.

Today on the IC-DISC show, join us for an insightful discussion with Laurie Barkman, a renowned CEO and author of The Business Transition Handbook. As the acclaimed Business Transition Sherpa, Laurie sheds light on the reality that all business owners will exit someday. We explore the challenges of selling a business, like why most small businesses don't sell successfully and the potential pitfalls of an exit. We also discuss relying on experienced advisors and how understanding taxes and markets can aid planning. Laurie shares invaluable advice on navigating this critical phase successfully. This episode is a must-listen for any business owner planning to navigate their business transition.   SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Laurie and I discuss her journey as a CEO and author of The Business Transition Handbook, providing insights into the realities of business transition. She highlights the hard truth of selling a business and how eight out of ten small businesses fail to do so successfully. We talk about the common pitfalls of business transition, the five "D's" that can disrupt a business, and the value of creating a satisfied client base. Laurie explains the unique challenges law firms face during business transition and offers her strategies for a smooth transition. We delve into the importance of a clear exit plan and the different options business owners have when transitioning their business. Laurie advises focusing on three primary goals during business transition: business, personal, and financial. We discuss the analogy of business transition planning to having a sherpa guide you through a treacherous terrain, making the process seem less daunting. Laurie emphasizes the significance of accountability in business and the benefits of having industry expert conversations during transition. We explore the upcoming online course based on Laurie's book that she plans to launch in the first quarter of 2024, aiming to reach a wider audience of entrepreneurs. We discuss the importance of having an experienced network of professionals to help businesses reach their goals and create a successful transition plan. LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About The Business Transition Sherpa About The Endgame Entrepreneurship Course GUEST Laurie BarkmanAbout Laurie TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) David: Hi, this is David Spray. Welcome to another episode of the IC Disc Show. My guest today is Laurie Barkman from Pittsburgh. Laurie is a really fun and interesting guest. She just released her first book entitled the Business Transition Handbook, and she is called in many circles the business transition, the idea being that a Sherpa guides somebody on a journey over a period of time rather than just a one-point event in time. Laurie has an impressive background as a former CEO of a large privately held company. She has a bachelor's and an MBA, and we talked about mistakes business owners make when they're transitioning their business. We talked about the sober reality that 100% every last business owner is going to exit their business and the question is will it be on their terms or someone else's? So there is some great advice and information for any company, any business owner who is looking to exit their business at some point, and I think you'll get a lot of value from this. Good morning, laurie. How are you today? Laurie: David, hey, great to see you, I'm awesome. David: That is great. Now, where are you located today? Laurie: I'm in the great city of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. David: Yes, now are you a native of Pittsburgh. Laurie: I am not. I am not. I'm an adopted daughter of the city. I'm originally from Albany, New York. David: Okay, so Ithaca wasn't too far to go for you. Laurie: That's right, it was not. It was only about three hours away. David: Okay, and then what brought you to Pittsburgh? Laurie: After graduating from college, my husband and I moved around Pennsylvania with different corporations. I was with Aigner Sol Rand Company and I was with a division in Shippensburg and after four years decided to get my masters, get my MBA, and decided to move to Pittsburgh. My husband had gotten a nice job with McKinsey and company and here we are. Okay 25 years later. David: You got your MBA in Pittsburgh, right at Carnegie. Laurie: Mellon. I did at Carnegie Mellon okay. David: Well, let's dig into this. So the business transition Sherpa. Where did this nickname come from? Did you come up with this yourself, or did somebody else give you that title? Laurie: You know, it's kind of an amalgamation of things. I remember talking to my husband about a trip that he and I had taken in 1997. We did a trek, we did a hike, and this idea of somebody guiding you and stuck with me. And as I was thinking about what I'm doing, working with business owners, it's not just one moment in time, it's over a period of time, and I really feel like my role is to be a guide. I don't have all the answers. I have a path, I have tools and, just like a Sherpa and the great work that they do, it's that same idea is we're on a journey together. Entrepreneurs build their business, sometimes on their own, but most likely not. Entrepreneurs are building their companies with other people, and so when they get to this other side of the mountain, so to speak, and thinking about their next chapter, why would they go about that by themselves? And I want to be the person that helps guide them. David: Yeah, I love the description of what you do because it picks up the fact that it's a journey, it's not a point in time and it's tough to do by yourself. In my experience I've just closely held small to medium sized business owners. Only sell a business once right, that's right. Laurie: We can regret things in our experience. We can regret what we do and wish we did something differently, or we do not take an action and we regret not taking that action. And my book the whole reason I wrote the book the business transition handbook was to help people proactively so that they don't have regrets. It's a very big, lofty goal to not have regrets in life, but if we can be proactive and we can understand what it takes to build a more valuable, transferable business and then understand what resources we might want to have on our side. I like to say, David, you can't do exit planning when you're exiting. It's just too late. So if you give yourself a time and space to work on having a more valuable, transferable business, the good news is that it's going to be a lot more fun to run your company. It's going to have an economic benefit to you and then in the future you'll have more options. You'll have more valuable options too. David: Yeah, I really enjoyed reading your book. In fact, behind you there, I believe, there's a blown up cover. Yes, it is. Laurie: That's right. Yeah, it was really interesting to write the book. I guess I could say it's my first book. I don't know that I'll have a second, but this, no matter what, is my first book and it was challenging, but at the same time, it was fun. It was like a giant puzzle. Once I mapped out what I believe the big pitfalls are right. So the subtitle of the book is how to avoid succession pitfalls. Each chapter in the book and I don't know if you picked up on this as you were reading it but each chapter is a pitfall. What do you want to avoid? And so what I tried to do was put myself in the reader's seat, the entrepreneur's seat, and how I developed that perspective was from my own experiences, client experiences and then integrating case studies and other learnings from my podcast. I have a show called Succession Stories that you will be a part of soon, and there are so many valuable things to learn from other people's wins and losses and challenges, and that's what I have always sought out to do with my show. The show is about three years old at this point and when I was writing the book, I had, I think, about 120 recordings, so that's a lot of knowledge and content. And what was so fun for me, david, was I was going back into the archives of a discussion. Every show I have has a transcript and of course I don't remember everything. But when I would write a chapter and I would need a case study, I had space for a case study in that particular spot, for a particular topic I would think, okay, which shows, should I go back to dive into those transcripts and then find these golden nuggets and I it was just so interesting to have the recall in writing of oh yeah, you know, she said that was an amazing conversation, and you, my memories are not long, right, we have so many, only so much storage in our brains, exactly. So it was really cool to go back to that body of knowledge that I had created, and I began to appreciate that body of knowledge even more. I think this case studies bring the book to life. I'd like to hear what you think about that, but that's that's what I hear from my readers is they love the, the learning and the concepts, the business concepts in the book, and they think that it's like me having a conversation with them by sharing these case studies and stories along the way. David: Yeah, I agree there were a number of. I mean, there was a lot of great stuff in there, but some of the particular ones I kind of wanted to dive in with you on is so this is a little bit of a quiz to see how much of your book you remember Do. When somebody, when people, decide to sell their business, do they just automatically sell it or do some portion of them? Are they unable to sell the business? Laurie: There's a mix, as you can imagine. Yeah, what percentage are you? David: able to actually sell it in the small business space. Laurie: It's a surprisingly low number. You know the statistics out. There is that every two out of 10 companies in the lower middle market actually sell. So that leaves eight out of 10 not selling. And you could ask, well, why is that? And there's a lot of reasons why. Sometimes along the way we have the five D's kind of pop up, or always also known as the 60s. These D's are taboo things, sometimes we don't want to talk about them, but they're real and we do need to talk about them. It could be the debt of an owner. It could be divorce disaster like COVID you know we put it in that category or disaster like fires and the business or the market has experienced is something traumatic it could be. Did I say divorce already? Divorce is another D. So these D's are something we can plan for. We don't want them to happen but we do need to be prepared. So if we're not prepared for the 60s, they can really wreak havoc on a business. Particularly death. The death of an owner can throw a business into a tailspin and I did cover that at some you know level in the book with a couple of episodes, snippets of people who had experienced that. The other reason why businesses don't sell, david, is because they're just not transferable. If they are so owner dependent and owner centric, that can be a really big reason why it won't sell and it's hard for owners to see that. You know, sometimes owners think that they are the secret sauce. I have a business assessment that one time I'm marketing. The owner of a marketing firm took this assessment and she said oh my God, she goes. I didn't realize I was standing in the way. She thought she, you know, she's a photographer, she's the creative, she's got the client relationships and she realized at that moment oh my goodness, I am making my company less valuable. So there's a pivot in our brains when we recognize some of the elements that help create a more transferable business and companies that have an owner who don't necessarily see the business as an asset, they see it as a job or they see it as a piggy bank. Those are different things, because if you see your business as an asset, you're going to want to create value in that asset over time. You're also going to want to protect that asset. If it's a job, right, I just accepted what is. And it's not growing, it's staying the same. Maybe you're not reinvesting in the business. You're not reinvesting in yourself or your people. And let's just jump to an example. I have a client who, in his favor, had very loyal people Once he got to his sixties, as did his key employees, and everybody's looking to retire. Buyers looking at that business said oh my goodness, how transferable is this business when all the key people are going to retire at the same time? So he had saved money, so to speak, by not bringing in new people, kind of underneath and over a period of training. So he recognizes that now, but it's too late. David: Sure, yeah, I was having this conversation yesterday with a group of CEOs and we were talking about enterprise value, increasing it, owner dependency, and there's a guy that owns a small boutique intellectual property law firm and they were asking him how sellable law firms are in general and he said not very and from his perspective that he said there's things he could do to make the business run without him better. But his model that he really likes to work with his clients directly, he doesn't like an associate between them and so that in his and a couple of his clients are actually in the room and they're like, and he's like, yeah, if I had like some associates that could potentially lower the fees to a client, you know, because there's more leverage in the client. So like no, we'd rather pay more and have you. So I've noticed in professional services there's this tradeoff between what. If you really want to have delighted clients, sometimes that's at odds with making your business the most valuable. And I know my business is like that. I mean I've got huge owner dependency issues because I am the key relationship, but I've gotten peace with the fact that it's just not very sellable and I like being a craftsman and just like it hit. Laurie: Yeah, and that isn't that the important thing. If you recognize it and are accepting of it, hey, you know what? That's okay. Not every business is going to be an asset to sell to another buyer and that's totally okay with the law firm. Just to circle back, because I do have some professional experience with law firms, one of the catch 22 things about law in particular is the code of ethics that they have to abide by. David: The non-competence, the non-compete. Laurie: Yeah. So if a lawyer leaves a law firm, they you know there's certain restrictions on when they can inform their clients and taking their clients with them, and I know there's lots of gray areas. I'm not going to talk about all of the nuances there. My point is that with law firms also there could be other types of professional services that run into this, but in law in particular what clients will say is that they hire lawyers, not law firms. Yeah, and so when you're tied let's just like you're talking about with that particular partner that the clients are willing to pay more because they want to work with that particular partner it could be highly likely that client would jump and go with them, no matter where they are. That can be particularly concerning for an acquiring firm, knowing that they may have some stickiness to certain clients and then they may not have other stickiness. So it really is dependent If there's a firm that's acquisitive and looking at buying other professional services, whether it's law or any other profession. I work with engineering firms quite a bit and in engineering firms there might be contracts but those contracts are not assignable and it might influence not only the type of transaction that we would do, whether an asset sale or entity sale, but it also would influence potentially on the transition for the sellers and how long they might want to stay, or the buyers might want them to stay under either an employment agreement or consulting agreement. It could also influence whether or not there's an earn out. You could structure an earn out, for example, if the buyer wants to structure an earn out to ensure a certain percent of those contracts are assigned over whatever time period or year and a half. So it could influence it in a big way. David: Talk to me about, and thank you for that. Talk to me about what you enjoy most, about being a business transition or not. I shouldn't say A, but the business transition, Sure. What are some of the aspects of that in working with those companies that you just find particularly satisfying or rewarding? Laurie: One of the things that I experienced as a CEO of a privately held company was the loneliness and being in my own head and having big questions and not really knowing where to go. I find that I bring kind of this EQ, if you will, of smarts and know-how and experiences and questions, and then I bring excuse me, the IQ around that, then the EQ, which is more of the emotional side. I've always been a kind of person that people confide in. Obviously, this is a highly confidential type of scenario but, I talk with my clients about the business. for sure, that's the practical side of everything, but we also talk about the personal side. We have to talk about them because remember earlier in our conversation I talked about regrets and there's some alarming statistics out there about experiencing regrets at least one year after the sale. I'm kind of on this mission to help business owners find clarity, and find clarity in a way that makes sense for them, for their family, for their stakeholders, which includes employees and other shareholders and their communities that they serve. A lot of people feel after a transaction that they let so-and-so down. Maybe they let their employees down, maybe they let their communities down. I had a guy in my show whose family business fourth generation chlorine cleaning product was sold in grocery stores and he could not walk down the aisle anymore. He couldn't bear to see that product under another name or by another. He said, yeah, there was a pride. We used to the small town and we had our name on the baseball team and people knew who I was. The identity that this particular person had his family name was on the company. Identity is a really big part of it, david. People go through almost like a withdrawal If they're not excited about what's next, this pull factor, what's pulling you forward to your next thing? If we're not excited about it, it can be really. You can imagine worst case scenarios. Those things do happen. But the in-between space is not that great either, for what makes me feel that I'm helping entrepreneurs? I've always orbited entrepreneurs with a great respect for the risk that they take. I've come to know family businesses as a category. Also. There's the founder-led, family-led, privately held company. I've worked in venture backed, so no offense to venture backed folks, but they're not really a focus for me. I'm really focused on call it the bootstrapped or family-led companies where they're the everyday entrepreneur making it happen. The sense of clarity clarity on three core types of goals is where we focus business, personal and financial. There's a lot of work to be done there. I think that's what makes me motivated, makes me feel appreciated by my clients. They are awesome people. I work with some amazing people that are doing really wonderful things for their community, for their family. They have excellent intentions. They just don't know how to put it all together. I don't either. I don't have all the answers, as I said earlier, but what I do have is I have an awesome Rolodex and I have an awesome way to bring professionals together and collaborate and help my client assemble a business owner transition team advisory team to help them make big decisions along the way. Again, this clarity is the number one thing that I think my clients benefit from. David: Yeah, no, that's really important because, as you talk about in the book, unfortunately 100% of the business owners are going to exit the business, just like 100% of us are going to exit this earth. I was thinking when you were talking about that fourth generation gentleman who couldn't walk down the grocery aisle, but it's one of those things, but it wasn't like he really had. He must not have had a great way to avoid that, because he wasn't going to run the business forever. So you come into what are the options? Basically, if somebody's not immortal, what are the options to exit a business? Because there's several paths, right? Laurie: Yeah, absolutely. Just to finish the statement with 100% of business owners are going to leave one day, there's a big however, you know. However, very few are planning for that day To leave on their terms, and when we have a plan, we're more likely to achieve it. That's just how it works, right. That's why we do strategic planning for businesses. So why don't we do strategic planning for our exit or our transition? And that's really the main advocacy I have in the book is let's have a process, let's have an understanding of what it takes. So to your question I think I address it quite a bit in one of my favorite chapters, which I think is chapter six, which is who should own your business after you, and it shines a spotlight on the different kinds of buyers. When I do workshops, david, I do webinars and I do in-person workshops, and I put up this slide and I have essentially three columns and I go through some examples of each bucket three buckets and people's eyes light up, they take out their camera, they start taking photos of this one particular slide and it is enlightening because we hear about certain kinds of buyers and we don't know that there might be other options out there and maybe not every option is a fit. So what I advocate for is let's understand what are some exit options for your company and which ones might be a better fit than others, and why let's prioritize those and let's come up with option A, b, c and if option A doesn't work out, then we know we've got an option B. It's just like in any negotiation If you have the power to walk away, then you know you're going to get the right deal for you. It's when you don't feel that you have any other options that you feel pinched. So that's why back to the conversation about the five or sixties if an owner passes away and the company is going in a tailspin, with employees leaving and the spouse doesn't know what to do, and they've inherited this company. They've never worked in it, it's a mess and the buyers come out like sharks and there's chum in the water. We want to avoid that. We want to avoid that. So, yeah, I mean we could talk about what. Who are the different kinds of buyers, if you want. David: Sure, yeah, because I mean, I, just off the top of my head, we've got passing it on to the next generation selling it to the employees. A third party buyer? What are some of the other options? Laurie: Yeah, let me just frame it out and that way, visually, I'm kind of working left to right as I talked about these three columns and I put it in that order for a reason. So the first column is strategic buyers, the middle is financial buyers and the one on the right is related buyers. So the examples you mentioned, family and managers would be in the related buyers category. Typically speaking, that is going to be more of a fair market value type of approach to valuing the business, of what price you might expect for your business, and if you kind of go left on that chart then the price expectation should go up right. David: Strategic generally not always generally speaking, will pay the most. Laurie: And why is that? Well, and also, what's a strategic? So a strategic is an entity, it's a company, it could be a competitor, it could be a marketplace vendor, it could be a customer, it could be an adjacent industry to yours where they want to make moves, either geography wise, or into your industry, if they're not part of it yet. So those are strategic and, typically speaking and this was my experience going through a pretty big M&A transaction with a third generation company that we were acquired by a Fortune 50. And, believe me, they had an M&A playbook and when they're that big and they've done that many transactions, so for us it was understanding what's the fit, what will this look like? And for them, I'm sure, in their financial models, it was about leverage what assets do they keep, what employee teams might they cut and how do they gain some cost leverage? And so that's typical where these pieces of the business might be kind of bolted into something else. Maybe it's standalone, maybe it's bolted in, but that's typically why strategic can pay more, because on the back end, as they're modeling out their financials, they know what costs they're going to take out. We don't necessarily know that, but that's what they're looking at. Financial buyer most often we think of private equity firms, and private equity groups will invest on a time horizon roughly five to seven years could be longer and they'll want to buy low, sell high, and so in between, they're investing in that business to improve it, they're putting in management teams and they will take a larger entity, maybe keep it as a standalone and that would be a platform deal. And a platform deal may eventually have other firms acquired to tuck underneath it. Those acquisitions we call tuck ins or add ons. And because they are taking assets and putting them into something larger, you could say, oh well, that kind of sounds like the strategic. And the answer is, yeah, kind of does. So that's why, in a private equity deal, the hybrid, as we might also call it, could, from a multiple standpoint, look more like a strategic offer. So that's just a little financial nuance there. But typically speaking, private equity groups are going to be the biggest, you know, the biggest buyers out there. There's still a lot of dry powder and another big category that I like to spotlight. Well, there's two others I would put under this financial bucket. One is family offices might be investing in privately held companies in different asset classes. So, for example, I had a family office. Second generation was on my show and he talked about what he and his father's investment thesis is. And they're focused on warehousing, like storage, you know, storage unit for consumer storage so you can rent one for a year or whatever and put your stuff in it. So he liked they like that asset class because it has a recurring revenue model to it. And that's just one example. And what's really interesting, if you compare the time horizons for these investments, well, a family office is looking for a buy and hold, more likely than buying, selling a short period of time. So, as I said earlier about fit, this is where it's really important. If the seller doesn't want to be in a situation where it could be sold to the one fish and gobbled up by another. They want to be held for like a longer period of time and perpetuity. Then maybe they should look to you know, talking with family offices who are doing acquisitions in their space. So that's a category that is kind of under the radar and I just put a spotlight on in the book. And then the third one are ESOPs, which is a you know, think of it like an almost like a 401k program for your people. When they retire from your company, they're incentivized to stay, and when they retire they will get a distribution check, and so an ESOP is an interesting option for some other companies Again, not a fit for everyone, but it might be a fit for companies of a larger size with enough employee base, where, again, you're going to have a liability at some point to pay these people, so you have to be able to fund that. But what happens in that transaction is that the company becomes a tax-free entity, and so that's a real incentive, you know for companies to reinvest and acquire others, and it can be very positive for the culture too, yeah. David: I know quite a bit about ESOPs because you were kind enough to introduce me to Mike Silverman and in fact he and his partner, Matt were, I guess, in my podcast a few episodes ago and it's really interesting on some of the ESOP opportunities. And I'm glad you brought up the family office because, right, people don't think of that. Laurie: But when? David: I think about the. What I think of philosophically is the super family office. I think about Berkshire Hathaway's acquisition targets. But the problem is I think now they're up to where. When I started reading Warren's annual letters, they were looking for businesses with enterprise value, I think of like 25 million and up, and I think the last I checked it's half a billion or a billion and up. Just because $25 million companies don't move the needle for them. But yeah and it's kind of like their sales pitch is similar to the family office sales pitch. So I guess one way to think of it is, if you like being an aquire of Berkshire Hathaway but you're smaller than a half a billion dollars, then maybe a family office might make sense. But even then when you think about Berk acquisition requirements. They want a business that runs independently of them. They do not want to manage the business. So you're right back to. A business that can run without the owner is more valuable for everybody. Laurie: Yeah, they have the portfolio largely independent of each other. They've kept the brands, I think, pretty separate because they appreciate the brand and the competitive moat, as they like to call it, around that business. I think they look for companies that have a competitive market differentiation, so it makes sense that they don't muddle the water. David: Yeah. Laurie: Yeah. David: Have there been any positive surprises from writing the book that you didn't anticipate when you wrote? Laurie: it Surprises. Let me think about that. I think just the reviews have been so delightful and meaningful to me and I guess I just didn't think about it. I don't know that it's a surprise, it was just. Maybe I could say a surprise and delight just to see how this book is helping people or how they've shared told me that it's helping people. I think that has been a really lovely outcome. As an author, you put good in the world and you hope goodness comes back, or you hope that it's helping, but you don't really know unless people tell you, and so that's been really great, I would say. The other is with my clients. I have my clients and meet with them on a regular basis and I have clients that are reading the book and then when I meet with them they're like, yeah, I just read chapter five, let's talk about it. So this combination of I'm not going to quite do this myself, I'm going to read the book, I'm going to get knowledge, but I still want to work with someone to help me along the way, was really reinforcing that what I expected. I expected that, frankly, and I think it's important. I do think people can go through this book on their own and at some point in this call give, I'll give the listeners an option to how to make the most of it, but you can do it on your own. You can. What I think is human nature is we want someone to hold us accountable, and that's, I think, not again not necessarily a surprise, but very reinforcing. That is true and that's why just a kind of a pre announcement here I'm going to be creating an online course from the book so that it can help more people in a different way, and hopefully they'll watch the videos and they'll read the book, and I, what I'm aiming to do is reach a wider audience of entrepreneurs, not just the people who are, you know, three to five years out. This is really a book, I think. If you are beyond startup phase but you're growing your business, why not read this book and understand what it's going to take to create a more valuable exit when you're ready? So it's exciting. I'm planning to launch it in the first quarter of 2024. David: Oh, that is exciting. If somebody is interested in learning more about that is do you have any place for them to go yet, or are we too soon? Laurie: We are too soon, but that's a great idea. I should put up like a waiting list or something on my website, but the businesstransitionhandbookcom is the website page for the blog BusinessTransitionHandbookcom. Yeah, the businesstransitionhandbookcom is a page on my site, so they'll see all other pages too, but this is the landing page for the book, so what I might do is put up I'll put up a blurb at some point about awaiting this for the class. And yeah, no, I'm excited about it. Like I said, I aim to reach more people and help more people with it. David: Yeah, and you know that accountability is interesting, because one of the things I see with our clients is that one of the things that's interesting about our clients is that 90% of them have revenues between 10 and 100 million probably somewhere in the light of your clients and the vast majority of them do not borrow money. They've been financially successful enough. They've been able to, you know, internally find growth and because of in that, in addition to other reasons, and most of these also, it's a single shareholder, they don't have a board, and so these clients have zero accountability, like their only accountability is like to their family, to make sure that you know the monthly income is what they're hoping it would be. But you know, they don't have a bank to be accountable to, they don't have a board, they don't have other shareholders, so I can see where that accountability is something that they could be really helpful for them, that they don't really have anywhere else. Now, of course, they may have done that on purpose. Maybe they didn't really like being accountable. You know they were an accountable employee and then they borrowed money from the bank to start a business, so maybe they don't really like me. What do you think? Laurie: I have a client that's about 120 million revenue business in the call it food production space and he's very purposeful, has very good intentions for transition with his daughter over time and really wants to see her be successful in the company and grow with the company. And his partner, to his credit, said hey, not real name. You know, joe, you're going to want we should do a new operating agreement. You know your daughter's in the business now. She's doing a great job. We need a new operating agreement. And this operating agreement was sitting on my client's desk coffee stains. You know he literally had it in the corner of his desk. He told me he was there for nine months and then I met him in a workshop and then that was it. He said oh, that's it, I have to do something. I can't just keep looking at that document. And of course in the transition it's more than just the operating agreement. But it was so many other things too and he just the accountability was really good for him. He needed that. He really did because he had the intention to do it. It just was, you know, backburner and it was never the thing to do when all these other important things are common. Adam. David: Now that makes sense, and I just want to be clear businesstransitionbookcom or businesstransitionhandbookcom. Laurie: I just want to make sure I had it. Yeah, that's okay. It's the title of the book. Yeah, oh it's the. David: Okay yeah, I'm looking at the book. Okay, yeah, that is easy note to remember. What do you enjoy the most about your podcast? Trying to switch gears a little bit. Laurie: I love talking with people on my show about what's worked for them, what they've learned and what they would do differently and if I have an entrepreneur. I have two kinds of entrepreneurs that come on the show. One type is looking in the rearview mirror and that's where they'll get the lessons learned right. We really learn a lot from others where it just didn't quite go the way they would have liked and when they have successes, of course we learn a lot from that too. So that's one type of entrepreneur. The other type of entrepreneur is looking forward and I've started to have more conversations with entrepreneurs and I'm asking them questions about their legacy and how their intentions are for their transition and legacy, if they're open to sharing it. I've had a gentleman came on my show. He's in the HVAC space and he had let his company, his partner, know his intentions to retire in three years and it was almost like this huge weight was lifted off his shoulders and now that it's out there, they can create plans, they can work on things and it's a little bit freeing to do something like that. Other people who aren't quite ready to say what it is they want to do. We talk a little more generally about what's important to them as they think about transition and leaving a meaningful legacy for their stakeholders or family or employees, and I'm really enjoying those conversations. I also talk with people who are experts in the industry on some particular topic, like tax advisors, financial advisors, legal advisors, and those conversations are wonderful because then, as I build my Rolodex of professionals that are able to be the best fit for my clients, it's a wonderful way to do business development and people who listen to the show have. You know, not every listener becomes a client, but I have had listeners reach out. They've listened to succession stories for a year, two years, whatever it is, and they reach out and they said Lori, a longtime fan would love to talk with you. And the resources that are available from the show are on my website, like business assessments and different articles and knowledge articles give plenty of videos and ask to help people learn about different topics. So I feel like this body of knowledge. You know this thought leadership type of approach where if people listen, they learn about me, they learn about what would they do, and then maybe they want to follow up. You know is pretty exciting. So I really like that. I like when I hear from my audience. They tell me what's an interesting topic to them or questions they might have, and I think the learning is really the main thing. I'm a continuous learner I always have been and I find that with every show I'm learning something. You know, I'm learning something every time and I just love that. David: Yeah, and I've probably listened to half of your episodes. I suppose and you know that episode you have with Mike Silverman was really memorable that you know have had to introduce several clients to Mike, and so I think having the advisors on is also a great idea and that's kind of how you fit short of on my show, right? We're not talking about the ICDisc program at all, but you're somebody who my clients outside the ICDisc may find value to this conversation and yeah and I'm like you I love to hear, to hear, people's stories on the Colby. I'm an 8643, which I don't know. If you know the Colby, I do know the Colby. So I'm. That's what's called high fact finding. Okay, so I lead with the fact finding. So for me, I'm always more comfortable, you know, asking questions than answering them. Maybe that's from childhood trauma, where I was forced to answer too many uncomfortable questions by my parents. I don't know. Well, I can't believe how the time has flown by. By the way, what's your website? Laurie: My website is thebusinesstransitionsherpacom. David: Oh, okay, I like it. Laurie: Thank you, you know. I just wanted to mention David, because if your listeners are finding this topic helpful, that's good, you know, and then they probably might be wondering well, what's the next step? Or you know how do I sort of take small nibbles as opposed to biting off a whole arm, and I would recommend that. You know, I don't want people to feel overwhelmed, I want them to feel reassured that we have a process and we'll work with them to meet them where they are and I guess the you know. The next thing would be to reach out and whether they are in a mode of transition and planning, which is what I'll call pre-M&A right, not that they have to sell, but just conceptually. And then, for folks who are anticipating selling to a third party or a family member, you know that transaction somehow some way. So I'm a certified Mergers and Acquisitions Advisor and can help steer them on that path, from the practical side as well as the emotional side, to get a deal done that makes them happy. Okay, I like it. David: If people want to reach out to you, is LinkedIn probably the best way. Laurie: Yeah, linkedin's a great way. Let me know that you heard me on the show. That would be awesome, and I think, david, you'd probably love to know that too. And they could reach me on my website. As you said, the business transition Sherpa, there's a spot to book directly with me. We can connect via Calendly. David: Okay, and then what's the website for the podcast? Laurie: Successionstoriescom is the name of the show and again, you can find it directly on my website in the podcast section. All the catalog of the shows are there, but it's in every type of platform, so if you're Apple or Spotify or whatever you like, you'll find it. David: That's great. So here's the surprise question I promised you. Laurie: So I have two questions left. David: And so here comes the surprise one. So if you could go back in time and give advice to your 25 year old self, what advice might you give? Laurie: I think I should have bought a business. David: Okay, so you would have encouraged yourself to buy a business. Laurie: Yes, when I was 25 and I was graduating from my master's program. It was all about the next great tech startup, yeah, and creating that from scratch. And that wasn't me, yeah. But I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I just didn't feel like that was me in that mold. And I think now I'm more attuned to entrepreneurs through acquisition, you know as a category, and I didn't mention them, but they also would fall under the financial buyer category and there are many of them out there, not just in the US but around the world, who are interested in being part of that succession plan for a founder next generation leader. David: If you do you ever listen to the my First Million podcast. Laurie: I'd spent a while, but I'm familiar with it. You like that. David: They had a guest on recently. That is probably certainly my top five favorite podcast interviews ever and it's about a woman Sarah I forget her last name, but she was getting her MBA and decided she was going to buy a business with and she had zero money. She was going to buy a business you like these real estate advertisements? Buying real estate with no money down. She was going to buy a business with no money down and it's just a fascinating story of the process she went through through in just an astonishingly wonderful interview that I couldn't recommend highly enough. So apparently she was able to somehow go back in time and give her a 25 year old self that advice because she managed to pull that off. That's very cool. Is there anything we didn't cover that you wish we had? Laurie: Well, I think just to reiterate for people that when time is on your side, you can make an impact on your future and give yourself the space to work on your business and not just in your business. That would probably be my main advocacy and surround yourself with people that can help hold you accountable to the process and meet you where you are. So if they are just thinking about it, trying to figure it out, trying to understand what's their business worth today, yeah, that's a great place to start to. You know, try to figure out and model. Where are you now, where do you want to be and what's the gap and how are you going to get there? David: That's awesome, Laurie. I really appreciate your time on the show and I appreciate you taking the time to be on here. Laurie: Well, David, thank you for having me. I know this is my second time around you and I talked on a different show. We did. David: Yeah, we did. Laurie: It's lovely to be back with you and reconnect, and I'm just so glad that you are sharing this content with your audience, and I appreciate you, thank you. David: Yeah, it is my pleasure. Well, I hope you have a great day. Laurie: You too. Special Guest: Laurie Barkman.