The Melting Pod

Jenny Hunt is a Rutgers University professor, the former Chief Economist at the Department of Labor, and a key contributor to the gold-standard, 600-page consensus report on the economic consequences of immigration. Don’t worry, we’re going to summarize it together in 45 breezy minutes! Economists agree that immigration makes native-born Americans wealthier on average, expands the U.S. economy, and has positive long-term effects on government budgets. The main debate is over the impact of immigration on the wages of Americans without a high school education – and they would be helped far more by a stronger social safety net than by restricting immigration. So what’s the anti-immigrant movement really about…? ==Learn More== Amanda, Claire, and Doug express their own personal opinions on The Melting Pod. This episode was produced by Michael Palmer (⁠palm er.media⁠). Read more about the topics in this episode: * The Economic and Fiscal Consequences of Immigration - National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine (2017) * E Pluribus Unum: Findings from the Cato Institute 2021 Immigration and Identity National Survey - Cato Institute (2021) * Macroeconomic Implications of Immigration Flows in 2025 and 2026 - Brookings Institution (January 2026) * Rising Immigration Has Helped Cool an Overheated Labor Market - Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City (November 2024) [take it with a grain of salt!] * On the Ballot: An Immigration System Most Americans Never Wanted - The Daily / New York Times (October 2024) [take it with an even bigger grain of salt!] * The Cuba-Born Harvard Economist Behind Trump's Immigration Crackdown - Washington Post (January 2026) * Immigrants Have Lower Lifetime Incarceration Rates than Native-Born Americans - Cato Institute (September 2025) * From Chinese to Italians and beyond, maligning a culture via its foods is a longtime American habit - Associated Press (September 2024) ==Give More== Want to help build a more sane and humane immigration system? Support hardworking organizations like these: National: * ⁠#AfghanEvac⁠ – working to ensure the U.S. keeps its promise to our Afghan allies * ⁠Asylum Seeker Advocacy Project⁠ – the country’s largest membership organization of asylum seekers, working together for change * ⁠Black Alliance for Just Immigration (BAJI)⁠ – organizing and advocating for racial, social and economic justice * ⁠Haitian Bridge Alliance⁠ – providing humanitarian, legal, and social services * ⁠International Refugee Assistance Project (IRAP)⁠ - strategic litigation and advocacy to uphold the rights of people seeking safety * ⁠Justice Action Center⁠ - immigrant justice through litigation and storytelling Local: * ⁠Al Otro Lado⁠ - legal and humanitarian support to refugees, deportees, and other migrants in the U.S. and Tijuana * ⁠Catholic Charities Rio Grande Valley⁠ - providing assistance to the poor and most vulnerable populations in the Rio Grande Valley community * ⁠Las Americas Immigrant Advocacy Center⁠ - free and low-cost legal services to immigrants and refugees in West Texas, New Mexico, and Ciudad Juarez, Mexico * ⁠Support an immigration service provider near you⁠ ==Chapters== (0:00:00) Introduction (0:01:15) Who is Jenny Hunt and what is a serial immigrant? (0:02:55) Is immigration to the U.S. high or low? (0:07:41) What are the economic upsides of immigration? (0:10:56) Winners and losers (but not by much) (0:13:08) That time Donald Trump cited the National Academy of Sciences (0:15:57) Second-generation immigrants do great in the USA (0:17:52) What are the best policies to help the least educated Americans? (0:20:08) That time David Leonhardt cited the National Academy of Sciences (0:23:39) Doug’s best impression of Michael Barbaro (0:25:57) What is the deal with economist George Borjas? (0:28:59) Immigrants and housing costs (0:31:08) The idea of “cheap labor” (0:34:32) Why economists hate the term “labor shortage”... (0:39:22) …and also zero-sum misconceptions about the world (0:42:05) Scapegoating immigrants over crime (0:47:03) The Great Spaghetti Controversy (0:47:50) Conclusion

From calls to abolish ICE to deeply held misconceptions about immigration and criminality, few agencies generate more heat and less light than Immigration and Customs Enforcement. In this episode, we dig into the reality of how ICE actually operates, including the fact that the vast majority of people ICE arrests have no criminal record. Jason Houser served as ICE Chief of Staff and is an Intelligence Officer in the Navy Reserve. He joins us to sort out truth from fiction: Why is the Trump administration redirecting criminal law enforcement agents to civil deportation work? Is that akin to defunding the police? How many ICE officers actually need to be armed? And what should the future of this agency look like? ==Learn More== Amanda, Claire, and Doug express their own personal opinions on The Melting Pod. This episode was produced by Michael Palmer (⁠palm er.media⁠). Read more about the topics in this episode: * Agents with Homeland Security Investigations push to break away from ICE, saying negative reputation hurts their work - Washington Post (December 29, 2021) * ICE Has Diverted Over 25,000 Officers from Their Jobs - Cato Institute (September 3, 2025) * U.S. Unauthorized Immigrant Population Reached a Record 14 Million in 2023 - Pew Research Center (August 21, 2025) * 5% of People Detained by ICE Have Violent Convictions, 73% No Convictions - Cato Institute (November 26, 2025) * What Is a Sanctuary City? - Vera Institute of Justice (April 22, 2025) * One Bovino After Another - The American Prospect (January 27, 2026) * ICE Recruitment Tweets Are So Racist That Cops Feared They Could Incite Neo-Nazi Violence - The Intercept (May 21, 2026) ==Corrections== (1) Border Patrol has expanded checkpoint and search authorities within 100 miles of any land border or U.S. coastline. About two-thirds of the U.S. population live within this area, which includes Chicago, Los Angeles, and New York City (but not Minneapolis). Explainer: U.S. Border Patrol Authorities and the 100-Mile Border Zone - National Immigration Forum (March 31, 2026) (2) Alas, the Nicolas Cage character in National Treasure is “an American treasure hunter and cryptologist,” not an HSI agent. But the Harvey Keitel character is an FBI special agent in charge of hunting down antiquities! If the stolen Declaration of Independence crossed an international border, surely he’d pull in HSI… ==Give More== Want to help build a more sane and humane immigration system? Support hardworking organizations like these: National: * ⁠#AfghanEvac⁠ – working to ensure the U.S. keeps its promise to our Afghan allies * ⁠Asylum Seeker Advocacy Project⁠ – the country’s largest membership organization of asylum seekers, working together for change * ⁠Black Alliance for Just Immigration (BAJI)⁠ – organizing and advocating for racial, social and economic justice * ⁠Haitian Bridge Alliance⁠ – providing humanitarian, legal, and social services * ⁠International Refugee Assistance Project (IRAP)⁠ - strategic litigation and advocacy to uphold the rights of people seeking safety * ⁠Justice Action Center⁠ - immigrant justice through litigation and storytelling Local: * ⁠Al Otro Lado⁠ - legal and humanitarian support to refugees, deportees, and other migrants in the U.S. and Tijuana * ⁠Catholic Charities Rio Grande Valley⁠ - providing assistance to the poor and most vulnerable populations in the Rio Grande Valley community * ⁠Las Americas Immigrant Advocacy Center⁠ - free and low-cost legal services to immigrants and refugees in West Texas, New Mexico, and Ciudad Juarez, Mexico * ⁠Support an immigration service provider near you⁠ ==Chapters== (0:00:00) Intro (0:00:54) Meet Jason Houser (0:04:17) What does the Chief of Staff of ICE do? (0:05:29) What is the purpose of ICE? (0:07:06) What is the difference between Homeland Security Investigations (HSI) and Enforcement and Removal Operations (ERO)? (0:11:25) When HSI tried to break away from ICE (0:12:58) Immigration enforcement is civil, not criminal (0:16:13) Indiscriminate deportations vs. enforcement priorities (0:22:00) ICE and local law enforcement (0:25:23) Chief Bovino’s carnival act (0:28:32) Donald Trump defunds the police (0:29:42) What is a sanctuary city? (0:38:03) Scapegoating immigrants as criminals (0:41:19) ICE is mostly desk jobs (0:47:35) Why does an ICE officer need a gun? (0:49:16) What is the future of ICE?

You may know about the plight of Dreamers – over 3 million undocumented individuals who were brought here as children and are Americans in every way but immigration status. And you may know about DACA, the Obama-era policy that has allowed 800,000 Dreamers to pursue higher education, military service, and life out of the shadows. But a quarter-century after the DREAM Act was first introduced, Congress still hasn’t provided permanent relief for Dreamers, and DACA is under threat. Felicia Escobar Carrillo was Special Assistant to the President for Immigration Policy in the Obama White House, and tells the story of how DACA was created – after intensive organizing by Dreamers who continue to carry the torch today. Learn More Amanda, Claire, and Doug express their own personal opinions on The Melting Pod. This episode was produced by Michael Palmer (⁠palm er.media⁠). Read more about the topics in this episode: * Dreamers in the United States: An Overview of the Dreamer Community and Proposed Legislation - National Immigration Forum (Dec. 2, 2025) * My Life as an Undocumented Immigrant by Jose Antonio Vargas - New York Times (June 22, 2011) * Astrid Silva: Meet the woman delivering the Democratic response to Trump in Spanish - ABC News (Feb. 27, 2017) * How Democracy Works Now (2013) - free to watch with a library card Give More Want to help build a more sane and humane immigration system? Support hardworking organizations like these: National: * ⁠#AfghanEvac⁠ – working to ensure the U.S. keeps its promise to our Afghan allies * ⁠Asylum Seeker Advocacy Project⁠ – the country’s largest membership organization of asylum seekers, working together for change * ⁠Black Alliance for Just Immigration (BAJI)⁠ – organizing and advocating for racial, social and economic justice * ⁠Haitian Bridge Alliance⁠ – providing humanitarian, legal, and social services * ⁠International Refugee Assistance Project (IRAP)⁠ - strategic litigation and advocacy to uphold the rights of people seeking safety * ⁠Justice Action Center⁠ - immigrant justice through litigation and storytelling Local: * ⁠Al Otro Lado⁠ - legal and humanitarian support to refugees, deportees, and other migrants in the U.S. and Tijuana * ⁠Catholic Charities Rio Grande Valley⁠ - providing assistance to the poor and most vulnerable populations in the Rio Grande Valley community * ⁠Las Americas Immigrant Advocacy Center⁠ - free and low-cost legal services to immigrants and refugees in West Texas, New Mexico, and Ciudad Juarez, Mexico * ⁠Support an immigration service provider near you⁠ Chapters (0:00:00) Intro (0:01:29) Who is Felicia Escobar Carrillo? (0:03:43) Doug does his best Simpsons Teenager voice (0:06:00) Felicia cuts her teeth in Texas (0:10:37) “It’s very easy to testify at a state hearing” (0:14:54) Plyler v. Doe and the right to education (0:15:51) Organizing for the DREAM Act (0:21:34) The bravery of undocumented youth speaking up (0:26:33) The tenacity of Sen. Dick Durbin (0:28:37) How to work in the White House while finishing law school (0:32:26) The nailbiter DREAM Act vote of 2010 (0:39:22) Obama comforts his team: “We’re gonna get there” (0:41:31) Why didn’t the DREAM Act pass? (0:45:20) Doug can’t stop ranting against the filibuster… (0:47:36) …and nativists (0:50:18) Dreamers keep getting deported under Obama (0:58:33) What can we get done without Congress? (1:03:13) The White House gets serious (1:07:02) What makes DACA legal? (1:09:14) Obama announces DACA in the Rose Garden (1:14:44) The 60-day sprint to get DACA running (1:20:54) Implementation Day (1:25:18) The amazing stories of individual Dreamers (1:30:29) Congress still has to act (1:33:50) Conclusion – “for anyone out there who’s just paralyzed by cynicism…”

You don’t serve four years as a senior official in Biden’s Department of Homeland Security without seeing some things. This episode is Part 2 of Charanya Krishnaswami’s never-before-told story, walking us through the unprecedented border crossings in 2023 and the misunderstood reasons those numbers dropped in 2024 – far too late for political redemption. Along the way, we call out some ugly racism on the Democratic side of the aisle, lament the futility of Congress, and conclude with Charanya’s clear-eyed border plan for the next President. Learn More Amanda, Claire, and Doug express their own personal opinions on The Melting Pod. This episode was produced by Michael Palmer (⁠palm er.media⁠). Read more about the topics in this episode: * Circumventing Lawful Pathways final rule - Federal Register (May 16, 2023) - extra credit for the first listener who turns this into a TikTok dance… * Refugee Roulette: Disparities in Asylum Adjudication - Stanford Law Review (2007) * Homeland Security Shares Unhinged AI Photo in Post on Immigration - The New Republic (10.02.2026) Give More Want to help build a more sane and humane immigration system? Support hardworking organizations like these: National: * ⁠⁠#AfghanEvac⁠⁠ – working to ensure the U.S. keeps its promise to our Afghan allies * ⁠⁠Asylum Seeker Advocacy Project⁠⁠ – the country’s largest membership organization of asylum seekers, working together for change * ⁠⁠Black Alliance for Just Immigration (BAJI)⁠⁠ – organizing and advocating for racial, social and economic justice * ⁠⁠Haitian Bridge Alliance⁠⁠ – providing humanitarian, legal, and social services * ⁠⁠International Refugee Assistance Project (IRAP)⁠⁠ - strategic litigation and advocacy to uphold the rights of people seeking safety * ⁠⁠Justice Action Center⁠⁠ - immigrant justice through litigation and storytelling Local: * ⁠⁠Al Otro Lado⁠⁠ - legal and humanitarian support to refugees, deportees, and other migrants in the U.S. and Tijuana * ⁠⁠Catholic Charities Rio Grande Valley⁠⁠ - providing assistance to the poor and most vulnerable populations in the Rio Grande Valley community * ⁠⁠Las Americas Immigrant Advocacy Center⁠⁠ - free and low-cost legal services to immigrants and refugees in West Texas, New Mexico, and Ciudad Juarez, Mexico * ⁠⁠Support an immigration service provider near you⁠⁠ Chapters (00:00:00) Intro (00:01:06) Who are you, Charanya? (00:02:21) Matt Yglesias platforms an anonymous racist (00:05:42) Everyone loves a Hollywood narrative (00:07:42) Who are “The Groups”? (00:08:53) 2023: Preparing for a big shift in border policy (00:13:04) Is it legal to make people wait in Mexico? (00:15:07) Carrots and sticks (00:19:19) What is a “Pull Factor”? What *isn’t*? (00:23:17) Premature declaration of victory (00:26:54) “The numbers were staggering” (00:28:10) Going to Congress – who thought this was a good idea? (00:36:07) 2024: Who “fixed” the border? (00:40:41) The human cost (00:42:48) How do we learn the right lessons? (00:51:18) “There wasn’t a switch that could be flipped” (00:53:37) A lack of decisiveness (00:55:32) A five-point plan for the next President (01:05:55) “We can’t get scared away from our vision” (01:06:28) Conclusion

The Melting Pod brings you stories of our dysfunctional immigration system, and where we go from here. In this inaugural episode, Claire reveals how everything going on with ICE is even worse than it looks; Amanda explains how Trump is *de*-legalizing millions of people who thought they were protected; and Doug shatters any remaining illusions that MAGA is okay with legal immigrants. Plus we introduce ourselves, drag the New York Times a bit, and give you a few things to be hopeful about in 2026. Join us! Learn More Amanda, Claire, and Doug express their own personal opinions on The Melting Pod. This episode was produced by Michael Palmer (palm er.media). Read more about the topics in this episode: * Sweeping Raids, Giant Camps and Mass Deportations: Inside Trump’s 2025 Immigration Plans - New York Times (Nov. 11, 2023) * ICE Has Diverted Over 25,000 Officers from Their Jobs - Cato Institute (Sept. 3, 2025) * Medical examiner likely to classify death of ICE detainee as homicide, recorded call says - Washington Post (Jan. 15, 2026) * Trump administration sued over visa freeze on immigrants from 75 countries - NPR (Feb. 2, 2026) Give More Want to help build a more sane and humane immigration system? Support hardworking organizations like these: National: * #AfghanEvac – working to ensure the U.S. keeps its promise to our Afghan allies * Asylum Seeker Advocacy Project – the country’s largest membership organization of asylum seekers, working together for change * Black Alliance for Just Immigration (BAJI) – organizing and advocating for racial, social and economic justice * Haitian Bridge Alliance – providing humanitarian, legal, and social services * International Refugee Assistance Project (IRAP) - strategic litigation and advocacy to uphold the rights of people seeking safety * Justice Action Center - immigrant justice through litigation and storytelling Local: * Al Otro Lado - legal and humanitarian support to refugees, deportees, and other migrants in the U.S. and Tijuana * Catholic Charities Rio Grande Valley - providing assistance to the poor and most vulnerable populations in the Rio Grande Valley community * Las Americas Immigrant Advocacy Center - free and low-cost legal services to immigrants and refugees in West Texas, New Mexico, and Ciudad Juarez, Mexico * Support an immigration service provider near you Chapters (00:00:00) Intro (00:01:03) Was anyone prepared for this? (00:03:57) Minneapolis is different from anything that came before (00:07:34) The DHS funding fight – high stakes, weak leverage (00:10:45) If Claire were in charge, what would Democrats prioritize? (00:12:47) How the ICE surge is taking real cops off the beat (00:16:40) Deaths in detention (00:19:05) How Trump is de-legalizing immigrants with permission to be here (00:24:22) How Trump is choking off legal immigration (00:27:14) Litigation heroes fighting the immigration ban (00:31:58) Birthright citizenship – what happens next? (00:34:20) Claire’s story: “How can we shut her up” (00:37:40) Amanda’s story: “I hated law school with a passion” (00:41:50) Doug’s story: “I took some detours” (00:43:25) Memo to NYTimes: Trump is just lying to you (00:45:35) Things to actually hope for in 2026? (00:51:18) Closing