The Pivot

Joey Lankford’s journey is anything but predictable. He went from running a 10-location healthcare company in his early 30s to selling everything he owned and moving his family to the tip of South Africa. When he eventually returned home to Tennessee, he started something totally different: a workforce development farm on state land. In this episode, Joey traces the thread connecting those wild shifts. It all started with adopting a baby girl from Ethiopia, which completely changed how his family viewed their purpose in life. He shares what he found living in the townships outside Cape Town—the unexpected joy, the friendships that reshaped him, and a simple greenhouse of tomatoes that eventually inspired his farm, Cul2vate. Now, that same vision is helping previously incarcerated men and women across Middle Tennessee build new careers. Thought-Provoking Quotes: "What we thought was the adoption of a baby girl to save her from the plights of Africa actually ended up being God's upside-down story of her redeeming our lives and giving us purpose and mission." - Joey Lankford "It was harder to move back from Africa than it was to move to Africa — because I knew what I was coming back to." - Joey Lankford "There's something about putting your hands in the dirt with somebody that makes it not matter if you just got out of jail or if you drove a Bentley up to the barn. The dirt just sort of equalizes it." - Joey Lankford "We all have addictions — yours are just socially disapproved of. Mine just don't create the need for anyone to put me in a cage. But they take me to the same end: separation from the Lord." - Joey Lankford "When people talk about doom and gloom, I'm like — no. The kingdom is moving at warp speed. There are people doing some really cool stuff, using their resources to redeem a lot of broken things." - Joey Lankford Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: Cultivate — Joey's workforce development farm ministry; farms behind churches across Tennessee employing previously incarcerated individuals. Men of Valor — Nashville-based reentry ministry Joey named as a key source of Cultivate workers. Goodwill Industries — Partner organization providing life skills training for Cultivate graduates on a monthly basis. Second Harvest Food Bank of Middle Tennessee — Early distribution partner mentioned in building out Cultivate's food-giving model. Tennessee Farm Bureau — Partner that helped establish the Meet the Need foundation, which supplies protein for Cultivate food boxes. *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Cul2vate’s website Joey Lankford’s Facebook Joey Lankford’s Instagram Joey Lankford’s X Connect with Andrew: Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

In this week’s episode, we sit down with Matt Markins, president and COO of Awana, a global organization dedicated to guiding children toward a meaningful life through mentorship and community partnership. Matt shares the poignant childhood experiences—including the day his father left—that set him on a path defined by the powerful influence of caring mentors. He discusses how those early connections shaped his deep-seated passion for helping kids discover lasting values and a strong inner compass. Matt offers practical ways for adults to foster deep, meaningful connections with the next generation, underscoring the critical role of intentional presence and open dialogue in a world where anxiety and isolation feel increasingly universal. He shares his vision for a global community built on shared positive principles, where compassionate guidance helps young people navigate the “counterfeit narratives” of modern life to find authentic peace and connection. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “My earliest memory is the day that my dad walked out on our family. In the days, weeks, months after that, my mom finds her way to a local church. I’m probably four years old and I remember this moment with great crystal clarity something in my heart saying, ‘I want this. This is better.’ That was the moment I took my first step of faith and trusted Jesus as Savior.” - Matt Markins“It is funny how God can direct your steps, sometimes in very crooked paths, but somehow He straightens it out.” - Matt Markins “We have pivots, right, chapters that come to an end. I literally picked up a phone and called somebody I knew, David, and said ‘Hey, do you think Awana could ever use me?’ And David got up from that call and went to the president’s desk and booked a meeting, and the rest is history.” - Matt Markins“Discipleship is relational. No matter how much we try to AI discipleship, human-on-human interaction and mentoring and coaching and consulting… if we don’t control the calendar, the calendar will control you.” - Matt Markins“Start putting blocks of time way out in advance on [your] calendar. You have to buy the real estate of your time well in advance. Then when you begin to approach it, you can say, ‘Oh year, I want to use my time differently. What is it that I need to build into that space?’” - Matt Markins“The cultural gap between us as global citizens is really narrowing. When it comes to anxiety or depression or isolation, we’re all kind of at a similar spot.” - Matt Markins“Kids need adults around them that have God on their heart, that are open to being redeemed and shaped by God.” - Matt Markins“If I can talk to my kids about ballet, about the latest pop artists, about what’s happening in their school, and that’s natural for me, then I have built the infrastructure. The conduit is in place for me to do discipleship. The number one thing we need in our homes is dialog.” - Matt Markins“There’s all kinds of things in life that are holding us captive. We’re allowing our hearts to be open for something else to come in and that something else is counterfeit. There are counterfeit narratives coming at our children, at you and me, and we let them sink into our story, into our minds, into our hearts.” - Matt Markins“Christianity is good, but the danger is to say that secular culture is bad and to say, ‘But there’s no problems in our culture.’ Christian culture has all kinds of problems because there’s sin inside of us.” - Matt Markins“All the heroes of the faith were pretty jacked up people. It’s because of grace that we’re saved, because of grace that God can change us sometimes in a moment, sometimes in a lifetime.” - Matt Markins“Peace is available to me because of Jesus. So I am really working on how to be cognizant of that, how to spiritually be sitting in God’s presence and be connected to that, but also how to make sure that my life is wired to where I can set aside time to cultivate that even more.” - Matt Markins Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:AwanaMikhail Gorbachev Oprah Winfrey Young LifeAnchor HymnsSamford University Inside OutWelch CollegeJohn Mark ComerPastor Mark SayersThe Hunger GamesEmotionally Healthy Discipleship by Peter ScazzaroImmanuel NashvilleThe Story We Tell Our Children by Matt Markins *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Matt Markins’ websiteMatt Markins’ FacebookMatt Markins’ InstagramMatt Markins’ XMatt Markins’ YouTube Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

This week on The Pivot, we had a heartfelt conversation with Robert and Lori Crosby as they shared the vital work of their Reach Hurting Kids Institute. They opened up about what it truly means to apply a trauma-informed lens to ministry, explaining how shifting our perspective is key. Instead of seeing trauma-related behaviors as something to be taken personally, they teach us to see them as opportunities—chances to uncover deeper feelings and support a child’s path toward healing. Robert, with his researcher’s insight, and Lori, with her therapist’s heart, emphasize the power of a relational approach over a rigid, behavior-focused one. They talked about the beauty of flexible planning—the need to “pivot” to meet a specific child’s needs—and, most importantly, the profound importance of ensuring every single child genuinely knows and feels their inherent worth. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “It’s always amazing when you meet people who work in areas that are so heavy, and yet carry themselves so lightly. The area of children’s trauma, that’s as heavy as it gets, and yet [Robert and Lori] carry this joy with them.” - Andrew Osenga“I had the chance to start doing research in the realm of children’s ministry, to research trauma as it intersects with ministry. And pretty quickly I realized this is something I’m really passionate about, and this is a place where the church can have a huge, huge impact.” - Robert Crosby“Some of the clients I was working with were getting kicked out of churches because of trauma-related behaviors. And children kind of interpret that as they’re not good enough to be in the presence of God, which broke my heart.” - Lori Crosby“A trauma-informed ministry leader recognizes the signs and symptoms of trauma. So if a child is hiding under a desk or they’re dysregulated and screaming, the leader doesn’t personalize the child’s emotional dysregulation, but walks alongside them, shows up, sits with them until the child is regulated, and then can help them heal from whatever they’re going through—help them feel safe, feel connected, feel valued.” - Lori Crosby“What is the underlying feeling? How can I minister to that? How can I help them be okay so they can participate and engage and feel part of a community and feel loved, so that the church can be part of that child’s healing process?” - Robert Crosby“You can share God’s love more powerfully by sitting down next to a hurting child and just having a conversation, just checking in with them while you’re building with Legos, maybe sharing a meal. Just showing them Jesus through genuine connection, really being interested in their lives and being curious and open and being present. That speaks so deeply to all of us, I think.” - Lori Crosby“There’s often a disconnect between what we have planned and what a child actually needs. We have to have the freedom to say, ‘Okay, I’m prepared, but we’ve got to pivot and adapt so we can minister to them.’” - Robert Crosby“There’s a correlation between the way a child understands and experiences the church and the way they understand and experience God. We’re a proxy for God in that way.” - Robert Crosby“Relationships are the foundation of this entire approach. It’s getting to know the kids and building rapport and letting them know they’re loved and accepted and unconditionally cared for. This is what’s transformative.” - Robert Crosby“I think sometimes we over spiritualize things. If you have someone struggling with anxiety or depression, and we [share] scripture verses, there’s so much baggage that a child’s bringing in. So if a child has experiences or is still currently under threat, and we’re trying to pray it away or theologically correct their behaviors which are protecting them from harm, that’s not helpful at all.” - Robert Crosby“‘God’s not gonna give you more than you can handle’ is one of the most common misquoted scriptures that just does unfathomable harm to somebody who’s in the midst of trauma.” - Lori Crosby“Maybe the pivot, the shift, is that miracles can happen instantly, but sometimes the miracle is the very long, painful journey we walk.” - Lori Crosby“Just being present in the pain is what is the most helpful, because you don’t get to do or say anything that takes away somebody’s pain. We desperately want to, but the best thing to do is just sit in silence and be a loving presence who listens.” - Lori Crosby Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Trauma-Informed Children’s Ministry by Robert and Lori CrosbyReach Hurting Kids InstituteLos Angeles County Office of EducationPromise KeepersTortured for Christ by Richard WurmbrandB.F. SkinnerChurch of the NazareneTrail Life USA Dollywood *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Reach Hurting Kids websiteRobert and Lori’s FacebookRobert and Lori’s Instagram Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

This episode with Ashley Cleveland came out in January 2018—the first time Andrew ever met Ashley. This interview had such a profound impact on Andrew that he’s referenced it again and again throughout the years, and we wanted to re-share it with you as we look to a New Year. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I quickly became an alcoholic and a drug addict, but I also became a musician. I started getting a positive response, whereas everything prior had been pretty negative. So I look upon it as this marker that God gave me to keep me on the planet.” - Ashley Cleveland“I knew less than anything about the industry. But a divide had been crossed, and suddenly I’m a songwriter. I dropped out of school after a couple of years and I went back to California and that’s really where I learned to be an artist. I cut my teeth in clubs.” - Ashley Cleveland“I wound up pregnant, very ill with my addiction, so I turned to the church. And I have to say the church responded deeply and wonderfully.” - Ashley Cleveland “I couldn’t even cope with myself, let alone a child. And yet once I heard that heartbeat, I knew it was gonna be beyond me to give her up. Suddenly, there was someone else, and that was really the beginning of faith for me.” - Ashley Cleveland“I left that hospital knowing that there was a God and He loved me, though I had no earthly idea why.” - Ashley Cleveland“You take the art wherever you go. I’m so glad I had a career with a small C because what that meant for me in practical terms was I was home.” - Ashley Cleveland“For me, the best way to live is with my hands wide open and say, ‘Lord, you are the most surprising thing in my life.’” - Ashley Cleveland“I’m so thankful to be alive. Everything else is gravy.” - Ashley Cleveland Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Anchor HymnsSally Lloyd-JonesNeil YoungUniversity of TennesseePam TillisJohn HiattNACA (National Association of Campus Activities)Michael W. SmithSteven Curtis ChapmanRich MullinsTwenty Feet From StardomC.S. Lewis *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Ashley Cleveland’s InstagramAshley Cleveland’s Facebook Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Lead singer of The New Respects and author Jasmine Mullen joins The Pivot for a walk down memory lane, revisiting a beautiful childhood, the band members who turned into family, and a unique form of childhood rebellion: playwriting (and yes, they talk about her adorable play about how the star of Bethlehem was chosen). Jasmine and Andrew reminisce about their younger selves, when Andrew was first working at a record company and met Jasmine, when neither of them knew what they were doing. Jasmine opens up about the strong bonds that have shaped her life and career, and made her into who she is today. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “All my childhood years were in this house. It’s my favorite place in the world. It’s so beautiful, it’s in the middle of nowhere. Last night when I was driving here there was a cow in the middle of the road. It’s kind of chaotic, but it’s really sweet.” - Jasmine Mullen “Whenever I think of my mom, like in the fullness of herself, I think about her riding. There’s a huge hill in the backyard. She would ride down that hill on her horse bareback, and she was so cool.” - Jasmine Mullen“Growing up, there’s a house on the hill to the right, and my mom’s mom and her dad lived in that house. Then my dad’s parents lived right across the street. And it was just so awesome, they were the best ever. God set me up so well with grandparents who are like storybook grandparents. I look back and I’m just like, ‘Lord, what a gift, what a blessing to have that kind of support that close.’” - Jasmine Mullen“Darius Fitzgerald, Zandy Mowry, and I are family friends. We were raised together, kind of like family.” - Jasmine Mullen“The word ‘friend’ was heavier to me than the word ‘family’ because it was something that you choose, and family just happens to you. Friendship is something that you can build on.” - Jasmine Mullen“I was always super rebellious about not wanting to be in music because both of my parents are in music. So my form of rebellion was, ‘I’m going to write plays.’” - Jasmine Mullen Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:The New Respects bandBen Washington Is the Newbie on the Block by Jasmine MullenBen Washington Is the Odd Man Out by Jasmine MullenAnchor HymnsBrooke FraserCarly Bannister“God of This City” by Chris TomlinTyler Perry *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Jasmine Mullen’s websiteJasmine Mullen’s FacebookJasmine Mullen’s InstagramJasmine Mullen’s X Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

On this episode of The Pivot, we’re joined by Beth Felker Jones, writer and professor of theology at Northern Seminary, and the mastermind behind the Church Blogmatics Substack, where she explores theological themes through storytelling. Beth shares about her journey to becoming a professor, her approach to teaching topics like sexuality to her students and what she’s learned by listening to their stories, and her perspective on the personal nature of our relationship with God. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I remember quite early in my life wishing I had a cool, dramatic conversion story. I knew that was a thing Christians had and that they were beautiful to tell, and I didn’t have one. I think it took me a while to grow up in the truth, and that’s okay.” - Beth Felker Jones“While dramatic conversion stories are really beautiful, so is the way God draws us near in quiet and domestic settings. It doesn’t have to be fireworks for God to be at work. It’s the same God.” - Beth Felker Jones “Family is maybe the number one form of evangelism.” - Andrew Osenga“I love how stories draw us in, and I think that Scripture is primarily a story, a true story. God is at work in love for the world, and Scripture invites us to live in that story and to imagine our lives through that story.” - Beth Felker Jones“We learn from [stories]. We learn to consider the lives of others, and we learn about love and grace and the way sin works in the world.” - Beth Felker Jones“I think a lot of people walk out the door of the church because they’ve heard songs that tell them that God is one thing that He’s not, or that doesn’t give space for their suffering or doubt.” - Andrew Osenga “I learn from my students here. They tell me beautiful stories about falling to the bottom, about their lives falling apart, about a deep hurt that they never thought would come, and about how God has been with them and uses them to bear witness through those troubles.” - Beth Felker Jones“I suspect that every culture has its inherent beauties and its characteristic tendencies to sin. We can claim the beauties and fight the sin. But culture by itself isn’t just this big, bad thing. Often, it’s beautiful. God loves people and the world and art and thought and all the things that make up culture. God doesn’t throw those out, God redeems them.” - Beth Felker Jones “I don’t think it’s an accident that the Bible uses marriage, human marriage, as a metaphor for our relationship with God. It’s not the only metaphor, but there are some real ways in which we can learn about one from the other.” - Beth Felker Jones“I am not of the school which thinks the point of theology is to logically prove all things and line everything up in neat rows. I think theology is more like a poem in that we’re using a really beautiful thing, language, to point to something beyond God, who cannot be fully captured in our language, but who nonetheless has chosen words to communicate with us.” - Beth Felker Jones Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Why I Am Protestant by Beth Felker JonesChurch Blogmatics Substack (Check out Andrew’s guest appearance on Beth’s Substack in December!) Northern SeminaryKirk CameronC.S. LewisPsalmsG.K. ChestertonPope Gregory I (Gregory the Great) *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Beth Felker Jones’ websiteBeth Felker Jones’ FacebookBeth Felker Jones’ XBeth Felker Jones’ Instagram Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

On this episode of The Pivot, we’re joined by Andrew Torrance, Professor of Theology and Co-Director of the Logos Institute for Analytic and Exegetical Theology. Andrew shares about his work with the Scientists in Congregations program that opens up avenues for conversations between faith and scientific communities to learn how they can work together for a better understanding of the world and of our place in it. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “[Science] is not a threat to faith, but it’s something that can really be an important part of the life of the church.” - Andrew Torrance“There’s ways in which science actually exposes the many mysteries that confront the human understanding rather than resolving all of them.” - Andrew Torrance “What does it mean to be a human that’s been created in the image of God? What are the ways in which human beings are unique in the world?” - Andrew Torrance“I just love the outdoors. I think that’s what really attracted me towards science, just really trying to understand the natural world in which we find ourselves.” - Andrew Torrance “How do we think about the relationship between the brain and understanding? Are these two things distinct from one another? There are a lot of psychologists today that want to say we’re purely physical beings, and there’s some that want to recognize that our brain is accompanied by a mind. Human consciousness and our understanding isn’t reducible to the physical brain processes. There’s unique qualities that distinguish the two.” - Andrew Torrance Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:St. Andrews University Joe RoganScientists in Congregations Søren KierkegaardKarl Barth*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links:Andrew’s St. Andrews University page Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

In this episode of The Pivot, Andrew sits down with Marty Solomon, president of Impact Campus Ministries and the co-creator, executive producer, and cohost of The BEMA Podcast. Marty discusses his passion for working with college students and how diverse academic perspectives helped him construct a more accurate and comprehensive understanding of the Bible that is true to its origins. He also explores what an unfiltered version of Christianity entails and emphasizes the importance of building personal theology around the principle of loving others. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “If you are a college kid or you’ve been in your early twenties, you know what it’s like to be in this place of, What am I going to do with my life? What am I going to do next? Who am I? And the truth is, I’m still asking those questions at forty-six. I’m asking them in a different way. I have a lot more responsibility.” - Andrew Osenga“One day I was just like, God, I just want to pursue this discipleship stuff. I need people who are old enough that they’re not at home, so their parents can’t tell them no. I want to do this without permission slips, but I also need somebody who doesn’t have a mortgage and a marriage and three children and a career. And I just realized, Oh man, there’s a window there, and it’s college students. That’s when I jumped into campus ministry.” - Marty Solomon“I’m a teacher by trade, I’m a teacher by giftedness. I’m going to approach ministry as a teacher/preacher.” - Marty Solomon“We’re looking at the Bible through a historically informed lens. I want to ask the question, ‘What did the author mean when they wrote this? What did the audience hear when they heard it?’ I believe that’s the inspired conversation. That’s where the good stuff is.” - Marty Solomon“We’re probably used to a Christianity that’s been pulled through about twenty different filters. Not that it’s changed it or bastardized it beyond recognition, but it has definitely colored it and shaped it and probably twisted it in ways you’ve found confusing, hurtful, convoluted, distasteful, uncompelling.” - Marty Solomon“We are wounded and we are wary and we want something more than these crazy, in depth, complex, classical systems we’ve been handed.” - Marty Solomon“We’re going to learn in 400 years how we were wrong about half of it. We’re doing the best job we can, stewarding what we’ve dug out of the dirt.” - Marty Solomon “God asks us to be known for our love and we are not. We think we are, but we know we’re not. The reason we’re not loving people is because our theology does not facilitate loving other people. We’ve got to go back to the source and go, Are we reading our Bible correctly? Because if we’re not, maybe we should have built a different theology.” - Marty Solomon Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:The BEMA PodcastThe Pivot episode with Pete Enns Impact Campus Ministries Caedmon’s CallAndrew Peterson University of IdahoWashington State University Ray Vander LaanThe Gospel of Being Human by Marty Solomon *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Marty Solomon’s websiteMarty Solomon’s FacebookMarty Solomon’s XMarty Solomon’s InstagramMarty Solomon’s YouTube Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.