The Pivot

What if the goal of the Christian life isn't to escape this world — but to welcome the next one into it? N.T. Wright, one of the world's foremost New Testament scholars and author of 87 books, joins Andrew Osenga on The Pivot for a conversation as warm and wide-ranging as it is theologically rich. Tom traces the arc of a life shaped by choir stalls in northeast England, Scripture Union camps in the Scottish Highlands, and a decades-long love affair with the Bible that has never stopped surprising him. He unpacks the central argument of his new book, God's Homecoming — that Christianity was never about souls escaping to heaven, but about heaven coming down to earth. Along the way, he reflects on what it means to hold your convictions with both conviction and humility, why personal transformation and theological understanding are more connected than we think. Thought-Provoking Quotes: "Most people today imagine that the point of Christianity is to go to heaven when you die. They are all wrong. The point of Christianity is not that we should go to heaven. The point of Christianity is that heaven should come to us." - N.T. Wright "That's always been a sign for me that Christian maturity has, as one of its markers, the moment when texts you couldn't figure out before suddenly make sense — and you realize there's probably a lot more out there still waiting for us to grow into." - N.T. Wright "I think I'm a writer who happens to be in love with the Bible and theology." - N.T. Wright "But so I grew up in that atmosphere and the mantra really was, I will disagree like anything with you, but I will defend to the death your right to say what you say and to see the stuff like you see it." - N.T. Wright "You can't rush things as a theologian. You're working on a problem — and then gradually, gradually, you come around a corner, see things from a different light." - N.T. Wright Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: “God's Homecoming” — N.T. Wright “Surprised by Hope” — N.T. Wright “The Meaning of Jesus: Two Visions” — N.T. Wright & Marcus Borg “Spellbound” — Molly Worthen “Democracy and Solidarity” — James Davison Hunter “Jesus and John Wayne” — Kristin Kobes Du Mez “The Samurai” — Shusaku Endo "Genesis" (Yesterday parody) — N.T. & Francis Collins Ask N.T. Wright Anything — N.T. Wright's podcast Biologos Lanier Theological Library Yarntan Manor — theological library outside Oxford *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: N.T. Wright’s website N.T Wright’s Facebook N.T. Wright’s Instagram God’s Homecoming by N.T. Wright Connect with Andrew: Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Tim Timmons is a singer/songwriter, author, podcaster, pastor, cancer survivor, and—as of this year—the subject of a major motion picture. But this conversation isn’t really about the movie. It's about what it’s like to be Tim Timmons right now, in the middle of one of the busiest and most surreal seasons of his life. Andrew and Tim talk about what it means to stop working for God and start joining Him, why sorrow is a lot like manure (seriously), how Tim thinks about holding grief and gratitude at the same time, and what years of practicing obscurity have to do with the doors that are opening now. This one’s honest, funny, and surprisingly freeing—for anyone who’s ever tried to build their own little suburb in the kingdom of God. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I quit working for God and I said I'll never open a door again.” - Tim Timmons "Sorrow sobers us and gives us a perspective we've never had before." - Tim Timmons “My ministry is just being a re-presenter of the heart of God everywhere I am in the mundane and in the freaking awesome.” - Tim Timmons "Once I stop working for [God] and just start hanging out with Him, I just become more beautiful." - Tim Timmons Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: Waking Up Again by Tim Timmons and Hilary Timmons Tim's website "I Can Only Imagine 2" — the movie Tim is featured in *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Tim Timmons’ website Tim Timmons’ Facebook Tim Timmons’ Instagram Tim Timmons’ X Tim Timmons’ YouTube channel Connect with Andrew: Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

In this episode of The Pivot, Andrew Osenga sits down with physician and author Lydia Dugdale to explore the surprising wisdom found in confronting mortality. Drawing from her book The Lost Art of Dying, Lydia shares what centuries-old traditions, modern medicine, and her experiences as a doctor in New York City have taught her about death, dignity, and living well. From pandemic hospital tents to ancient reflections on the “art of dying,” this conversation wrestles with life’s biggest questions and invites listeners to consider how an awareness of our finite days can lead to a richer, more meaningful life. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “If you actually live your life aware of your finitude—aware that your days are numbered—then you live into the fullness of life in a different way.” - Lydia Dugdale “The idea is there’s an art of dying. There’s a way that we think about living well to the end so that we die well, but that doesn’t just happen right at the end.” - Lydia Dugdale “I thought that normal people talked about death because there’s nothing you can do about it. We’re all going to die, so you might as well anticipate it.” - Lydia Dugdale "It's just a fact of life. We're all gonna die—get over it—[so how] are you gonna lean into the fullness of life with that reality?" - Lydia Dugdale “I have taken care of enough patients who reach the end of their lives and they are scared out of their wits because they have never wrestled with these questions.” - Lydia Dugdale Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: The Lost Art of Dying by Lydia Dugdale *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Lydia Dugdale’s Website Connect with Andrew: Website YouTube Substack Spotify Facebook Instagram How to Remember by Andrew Osenga Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

In this episode of The Pivot, Andrew talks with Kelsey McGinnis—a musicologist, educator, and writer/editor for Christianity Today—about embracing life’s detours and letting go of the pressure to be perfect. Kelsey shares how she found her unexpected career by following her heart when her original plans fell apart, and how becoming a parent taught her to hold her goals loosely. She and Andrew dive into the messy reality of having multiple creative interests, exploring whether it’s better to focus on one thing or dabble in many, regardless of how others try to put you in a box. Finally, they discuss how to honestly critique parts of evangelical culture while keeping your faith and creativity intact, and the freedom that comes with choosing moderation over extremes. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “There were a number of years of just kind of, Well, whatever happens happens. And then after undergrad, things kind of went off the rails. I developed a pretty severe eating disorder. And in the process of my life blowing up, I decided, I am gonna go to grad school. I had no grand plan with all of this, I just knew this was something I loved to do.” - Kelsey McGinnis“I needed to be doing something that I loved that was helping take up more space in my brain than an eating disorder. Doing a PhD did it.” - Kelsey McGinnis “I started getting more of a vision for what a career could look like, got married, had kids, and that messes things up in all kinds of ways and makes you hold all your plans really loosely.” - Kelsey McGinnis“I was a little blindsided by how much I liked being a mom. I had not spent a lot of time thinking about what it would be like to be a parent. That experience as a graduate student sort of forced me to say, ‘I love what I’m doing, I would do this for the rest of my life, but I also love being a mom. So if there’s no way for me to do these things at the same time, that’s okay.’” - Kelsey McGinnis“When I read Christian parenting books, the framework that is used for everything is that any form of child resistance to what a parent wants to do is sin and rebellion. And I just remember thinking, I don’t think my one year old is manipulating me.” - Kelsey McGinnis “I keep learning that when I try to do something that’s not in the lane that other people think I’m in, that nobody knows what to do with that. There are a bunch of things I would have done differently in my career—I could have made the same art, made the projects differently—had I had a better understanding of how people view me.” - Andrew Osenga“I kept hopping between things, and there came to be a point where having a bit of skill in all those things became its own skill. And I’m just now starting to step into cases where the fact that I can do six things puts me in a different category than the guy who can do one thing really well.” - Andrew Osenga“Writing, for me, is a constant self-examination and self-questioning. I send things off to my editors with so many apologies.” - Kelsey McGinnis“If you have no other life, no other set of knowledge, you actually are kind of crippled. We are not meant to be siloed creatures, even in areas where you need to be an expert. Like, I don’t want a surgeon who’s not done their 10,000 hours, but you also want a surgeon who’s had a life outside that. I think that’s really helpful.” - Andrew Osenga “Christian women get all kinds of mixed messages about what our bodies are for, what our value is, what we’re supposed to be doing in our relationships and in our families. And so I’ve been looking at the different ways that faith language gets used to convince people that they need to do this or that with their body.” - Kelsey McGinnis“We’re really bad at moderation, humans in general. Everyone wants to do a cold plunge or eat a thousand grams of protein. Nothing is moderate, nothing is measured. I will stand by that diet culture as a phenomenon is destructive. But I can’t turn around and tell people their bodies don’t matter.” - Kelsey McGinnis“I want to spend a lot of time around quietly faithful people, actually be one of those quietly faithful people and take that version of lived faith more seriously than what I see online.” - Kelsey McGinnis“One trend of the past fifteen years that I find troubling is the discomfort with imperfection or roughness in any way. We want everything to be so smooth, so seamless. That’s my number one advice right now for people who are looking to engage with art, a sacred thing is being present for the creativity of another person and entering in if you can.” - Kelsey McGinnis Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Christianity TodayBelmont University“Good News” feat. Andrew Osenga and Josh WilsonBrandon LakeThe Myth of Good Christian Parenting by Marissa Franks Burt and Kelsey McGinnisRolling StoneShane ClaiborneHM MagazineUniversity of IowaCampus Crusade for Christ (Cru)AmeriCorpsRick WarrenDr. Oz*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Kelsey McGinnis’ websiteKelsey McGinnis’ FacebookKelsey McGinnis’ InstagramKelsey McGinnis’ XKelsey McGinnis’ YouTubeKelsey McGinnis’ Substack Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Fred Bahnson is a writer, essayist, and ordained minister whose work explores the intersection of faith, nature, and community. In this profound and far-ranging conversation, Fred and Andrew discuss the adventurous spirit of Thomas Merton, wrestling with the notion of original sin, and finding an “embodied experience” of faith rooted in the natural world. Fred shares how his work—from his book Soil and Sacrament to his recent films and essays for Emergence Magazine—is an effort to present a vision of Christian faith that challenges common stereotypes, focusing instead on the larger story of what God is doing and how we live as people of faith. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “[Thomas Merton] had this real adventuresome spirit that I really resonate with. And that’s very much how I conceive of my own faith journey, is it’s this unfolding adventure.” - Fred Bahnson“So much of what you’re wrestling with are things that I’m wrestling with. Even deep, theological ideas of, What is your faith?” - Andrew Osenga“The theology that I grew up with, at least as I received it, was all about original sin and sort of, ‘You are stained to the core. You are rotten to the core of your being.’ And it never really resonated, it just didn’t ring true to me. I knew I was sinful, but I kept thinking, If we’re created in the image of God, how can that be true that we’re also rotten to the core?” - Fred Bahnson“I think [boarding school] was where I had an early imitation of God’s presence, that sense of, Okay, I’m on my own. I had to learn how to become self-sufficient and a lot of that was learning to pray, just kind of crying out in pain to God and feeling the love come back at me.” - Fred Bahnson“I didn’t have this ‘calling’ to be a pastor, it was more just wanting to understand this faith that had shaped me and that I sort of couldn’t get away from.” - Fred Bahnson“I learned about other faith communities who were starting farms and growing their own food and reconnecting with the land, but in a very faith-focused way. And I was really fascinated by that whole growing movement.” - Fred Bahnson“This is where language doesn’t really get at our experience. I’ve sought all my life to get beyond the isms and get to the pure drop, the direct experience. That’s a lot of what I do as a writer, just place the reader there with me in the moment. To me, that is so much more powerful than ideas or argument or diatribe.” - Fred Bahnson “We’re nature looking back at itself. The environment is constantly moving in and out of us. We are nature and there’s no dividing line.” - Fred Bahnson“The faith I’m drawn to is very much an embodied experience. You’re doing things, you’re smelling things, you’re watching and hearing and all of your senses are engaged. I think that’s the faith we need if we’re going to have any chance of surviving.” - Fred Bahnson“It’s a writerly urge to use your own story as a window through which the reader can look onto some larger vista behind. Ultimately, you want to be the clear pane of glass that the reader looks through. You’re not. You’re not the final destination of the reader’s gaze. If at the end of the day, the story is just about what happened to Fred Bahnson, then I failed. It’s about the larger story you’re trying to tell.” - Fred Bahnson “I want to present a vision of the faith that maybe challenges some stereotypes of what a Christian is. For me, that larger story is almost always about what God is doing in our lives and how we live as people of faith.” - Fred Bahnson Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Thomas Merton“On the Road with Thomas Merton” by Fred Bahnson, film by Jeremy SiefertWilbur AwardsThe Live You Save May Be Your Own by Paul ElieThe Seven Storey Mountain by Thomas MertonBoris PasternakJames Baldwin Monastery of Christ in the Desert Redwoods Monastery Annie DillardCity Lights Bookstore (San Francisco)Laurence FerlinghettiEmergence Magazine Jeremy SiefertMontana State University Duke Divinity School Wendell Berry Sex, Economy, Freedom, and Community by Wendell BerrySoil and Sacrament by Fred BahnsonAnathoth Community Garden (North Carolina) Orion Magazine Michael PollanW.K. Kellogg Foundation Wake Forest University School of DivinityHannah Coulter by Wendell BerryJayber Crow by Wendell BerryBarry LopezThe Wisdom of the Desert by Thomas Merton The Art of Prayer: An Orthodox Anthology compiled by Igumen Chariton of Valamo “Guardians of Memory” by Fred Bahnson (Harper’s Magazine) The Forest Beyond film by Jeremy Siefert and Fred BahnsonThe Church Forests of Ethiopia film by Jeremy Siefert Thoughts In Solitude by Thomas Merton Seeds of Contemplation by Thomas Merton *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Fred Bahnson’s website Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

In this week’s episode, Andrew Osenga sits down with friend and musician Josh Wilson to discuss his journey of personal and professional change. Josh shares why his answer to “What have you changed your mind about and why?” is profoundly different now than it would have been four years ago. He opens up about his past struggles with alcohol addiction and anxiety, and how his decision to speak publicly about these experiences became a significant pivot in his life and career. Discover how embracing vulnerability and seeking help transformed his songwriting and approach to his artistry, leading to his latest album, “Mental Help.” Thought-Provoking Quotes: “When I started drinking, I drank in moderation. It wasn’t a problem for a number of years. But when it became a problem, I was drinking to turn down those questions, to turn down the volume on the anxiety and sort of the existential hum that was always there. I didn’t realize this until I quit, because when I quit they came back.” - Josh Wilson“I realized it’s just more fun to be honest and tell the truth in my songwriting and in my own personal life with friends and family. It’s not that I air all my dirty laundry. I’m the Venn diagram of who people think I am and who I actually am. I’m trying to close that as much as possible in an appropriate way.” - Josh Wilson“I hope when someone hears me talk about these things honestly—anxiety, depression, and addiction—I hope it’s disarming in the sense that if someone hears it, whether in conversation or in a song, they think, Okay, yeah, it's normal to deal with these kinds of things.” - Josh Wilson“I’ve released so many songs that I’ve already said so many things about subject A, B, and C. It’s like, Well, I could write another song, or I could try and dig even deeper and find something that makes me a little bit uncomfortable to talk about and hopefully makes people lean in, like, God’s not mad at you. I want to hear that.” - Josh Wilson“I had a mental breakdown in 2022, and thankfully I’m so much better. Now I’m to the point where I have the mental capacity. I’m sort of rebuilding it all and picking up where I left off back in 2019, and taking multiple instruments out. I want to connect on a human level with people.” - Josh Wilson Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Radnor Lake State ParkThe Painted Desert album by Andrew OsengaMental Help album by Josh Wilson“Jesus and Therapy” song by Josh Wilson“God’s Not Mad at You” song by Josh WilsonJubilee YouTube channelThe Russell Moore ShowPhil KeaggyEd SheeranJason Gray*Watch this interview on the YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Josh Wilson’s websiteJosh Wilson’ InstagramJosh Wilson’s FacebookJosh Wilson’s YouTubeJosh Wilson’s TikTokJosh Wilson’s X Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Creator of the beloved series VeggieTales Phil Vischer, whose influence impacted generations of children, joins The Pivot to talk about what happens when you build something incredible, only to watch it fall apart. Phil opens up about what to do when you discover that you’re not as important as you think you are, how to let God save you from your own ambition, and how to cope with devastating failure in order to turn around and build the life you were meant for—free from what others might think. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “All I wanted to do was make films and I wanted to be one of the good guys. And then I thought, Well, maybe I’m more than just a good guy who makes films. Maybe I’m like the next Walt Disney.” - Phil Vischer“I don’t like leading people. Which is a bad thing to discover after you’ve hired a whole bunch of people. So my management style tended to be, find the most competent person who liked to be in charge and make them in charge of all the people.” - Phil Vischer“You make a huge mistake when you decide that God needs you. Bad things happen.” - Phil Vischer“[I felt like] I wasn’t doing big things for God if I was curtailing my ambition, not expanding it. I had such a view of evangelical workaholism.” - Phil Vischer“The model I grew up with was if you’re enjoying life, you’re not trying hard enough. If you’re happy, you’re not doing it right. And finally, God got tired of watching me be that way.” - Phil Vischer“I wrote 80% of every line that came out of a vegetable’s mouth for ten years. So you become somewhat personally attached to the characters you’ve created and are bringing to life with your writing. And then, someone says ‘We don’t need you to write them anymore.’” - Phil Vischer“I realized that God was saving me from my ambition, that I was pushing a rock up a hill that He never asked me to push.” - Phil Vischer“What’s your life’s work going to look like? Who’s the model for your life’s work? We pick almost every model in the world except Jesus.” - Phil Vischer“We always talk about our successes in the church. We never talk about our failures.” - Phil Vischer“We’re trying to help a generation stay connected to their faith. To throw out the bathwater, but hang on to baby Jesus.” - Phil Vischer“I think a lot of people that have gone through what Phil has gone through could be bitter and angry, and I’m sure he had his moments. But I don’t get that from him now. I get a lot of wisdom and compassion and definitely curiosity and a sense of ‘What’s next?’” - Andrew Osenga Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:VeggieTalesThe Holy PostWalt DisneyExperiencing God by Henry BlackabyBiola UniversityBilly GrahamDisneylandWillow Creek Community ChurchChristianity TodayMoody PublishersSkye JethaniK-LoveJars of ClaySixpence None the Richer U2Wheaton College RadioSwitchfootThe Ed Sullivan ShowLarry NormanRandy StonehillKeith GreenAngel StudiosJohn IrwinMike NawrockiThe Dead Sea SquirrelsThe Toy That Saved ChristmasBlenderThe Apple Dumpling GangTime BanditsCoen BrothersWes AndersonO Brother, Where Art Thou?The Hudsucker ProxySlumdog Millionaire *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Phil Vischer’s websitePhil Vischer’s FacebookPhil Vischer’s InstagramPhil Vischer’s XPhil Vischer’s YouTube Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Join Andrew for a really special end-of-the-year episode as he opens up about the creative work he put out in 2025. He shares some honest reflections about what he learned this year, what didn’t quite work out, and what he’s hoping to carry with him as we step into the new year. We’re talking about how to truly learn from those inevitable failures, seeing them as a chance to redesign the life we want, and the difficult but necessary process of letting things go. And, perhaps most importantly, he’s sharing why carving out space for both rest and community is so critical, especially when they’re the first things that tend to get sacrificed when life gets hectic. Here’s to another year of growing, changing, and simply being humans who make things. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “The truth is I made a lot of things for a long time that had no way to come out, and then they just sort of stacked up, and I was finally like, I’ve got to get this stuff out. I’ve got to just get these piles off the desk so I can do something else. And now I get the chance to start afresh.” - Andrew Osenga“We learn from our failures.” - Andrew Osenga“I love making music, but I also love having conversations and talking about ideas and just getting to talk to some of the most fascinating, incredible people.” - Andrew Osenga“When I tell you the people we have lined up to talk to next year, I literally cannot believe it. Some of my absolute heroes, authors and artists, people that I could not believe said yes. I am so excited and nervous. It’s going to be so fun.” - Andrew Osenga“Alison, my wife, is dealing with cancer, and that’s a long, long, long journey. It’s still really hard. She’s doing a little bit better than a year ago, and we’re really grateful for that. I thank you so much for your prayers.” - Andrew Osenga“I need to find some things I can let go of. I hear other people’s stories, and what you find over and over and over is that community is so important and rest is so important. And when we get busy and spin too many plates, the things that immediately disappear are community and rest.” - Andrew Osenga“We isolate and we ignore the Sabbath and we work, work, work by ourselves. That’s what I do. And all of the sudden, I start to think that I’m the reason everything is working or not working, I can do it all by myself, everything hinges on me, and it doesn’t. I start trusting in myself and not God. I’m leaning on myself and not those around me.” - Andrew Osenga“This is a good time of year where you just have to pause a little bit and you get a chance to rethink, look at your schedule, look at your priorities, look at the things you’re planning on doing, and say, ‘What can I stop? How can I reschedule my time?’” - Andrew Osenga Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Amen. 30 Days of Prayers from the Headwaters by Andrew OsengaAnchor HymnsSandra McCrackenCharlie PeacockSamford University *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Writer and speaker Liuan Huska joins this episode of The Pivot to share her studies on anthropology and her venture into journalism, as well as her book on reconciling chronic pain and illness with faith. Liuan shares about her family’s year-long travels through South America, her work with Christian conservation organization A Rocha, and reflects on how to find wholeness in the middle of life’s challenges. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I just got more and more concerned about environmental issues, just being a human in this world today and noticing things and being sad about pollution and the way that humans have impacted creation in a negative way.” - Liuan Huska“I had this image of God where He has to act in this certain way for me to maintain a relationship with Him. I had to let go of my images of who God is and what God does in the world.” - Liuan Huska“If we pray and it matters to God, but it doesn’t actually make the tangible difference we thought it was going to make, then what difference does it make to engage with God and continue this personal relationship where we expect God to respond?” - Liuan Huska “We have the ability to make a life for ourselves in different places and we can figure things out. You can go anywhere and really plug in and find community.” - Liuan Huska “It has sometimes just hurt my heart to see that caring for the earth sometimes seems to be treated like an enemy of the church politically sometimes. We are called so clearly in the Scripture to care for the world, to care for the earth. And you look around you and think, This is a gift from God, why would we not want to steward it well?” - Andrew Osenga Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Hurting Yet Whole by Liuan HuskaA Rocha InternationalLiuan Huska’s Substack, Becoming Whole University of ChicagoChristianity TodayU.S. Environmental Protection AgencyDisappointment with God by Philip YanceyParker PalmerMy South American Classroom by Liuan Huska Catherine McNielEugene Peterson Behold the Lamb of God 2025 *Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Liuan Huska’s websiteLiuan Huska’s FacebookLiuan Huska’s Instagram Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Pastor and author Claude Atcho joins The Pivot to discuss the challenging transition from a large, established church to a smaller, new gathering. He explains how this move required him to shed the role of a seasoned veteran and embrace starting over as a newbie. Claude shares insights into the difficulties of driving significant change for one’s family, especially when the decision seems counterintuitive on paper, and offers advice on prioritizing learning and growth over the comfort of established competence. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I remember as a kid really enjoying going to the library, just enjoying the fact that people are creative and they’ve taken the time to capture stories, write them down, or tell somebody else’s story.” - Claude Atcho “Books mark different transitions in my life.” - Claude Atcho “Growing up, I loved sports, and came to the realization that most young boys have; Oh, being a pro athlete is probably not in the cards for me. And what does that mean? How do I experience that transition of my future, this taste of realism? How do I find my place in things?” - Claude Atcho “I wanted to write [my book] for Christians who wanted to think about both literature and how literature can form us and how story matters and can form us, particularly when we put stories in conversation with a story of the kingdom.” - Claude Atcho “There’s something unique about story and language and it can do something in us that sometimes other things can’t do.” - Claude Atcho“I think I can use competence as a shield to protect myself from feeling out of control or vulnerable. Starting as a learner, I had to be present to everything in a new way, and I think that was good for me. I’m still learning to do that.” - Claude Atcho “Major transitions happen in people’s lives all the time, I think I was just not aware of that. I feel like, Oh, I’ll do this forever. No I won’t. I hope to have a good long run wherever I go, but this is happening all the time.” - Claude Atcho“Rhythms of relationship with Jesus are a way to remind ourselves that this is not a place to be ultimately comfortable, but that we find comfort with Him.” - Andrew Osenga Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Reading Black Books by Claude Atcho Rhythms of Faith by Claude Atcho The Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde Chicago BullsSeattle MarinersDr. Henry CloudD. Michael Lindsay*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Claude Atcho’s websiteClaude Atcho’s XClaude Atcho’s Instagram Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

In this powerful episode of The Pivot, Andrew sits down with fellow Christian musician and songwriter Ross King. In this interview (recorded before he lost his wife Staci to cancer), Ross shares how significant traumas—including his father’s drowning and his wife’s cancer diagnosis—have profoundly changed his loyalties to his own mindset. He discusses the nuanced process of grief, not just for what is lost, but for “the life we wanted,” and the challenging honesty of songwriting through profound suffering. This candid discussion explores how unexpected challenges can lead to difficult but ultimately redemptive personal adjustments, fostering deeper relationships and a re-evaluation of faith. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “We are both married to cancer patients. Both of our wives have aggressive, advanced cancer. I don’t share a lot about that, we’ve needed to kind of keep it in our house, but it’s been encouraging for me to watch you wrestle with it publicly. Cancer changes everything.” - Andrew Osenga“Yeah, I think cancer is afraid of God. But right now, it doesn’t seem like that’s causing any difference in what we’re going through. For me, it was returning to; I really want to be close to God. That’s something I would have said as a kid, but then I probably got too cool to say that. And now I want to say it again, because I really kind of miss that guy.” - Ross King“I really want closeness to God, but I’m telling you, I’m way too weak and fragile and broken and scared to beg for that, whatever it takes.” - Ross King“I have this theory that heavily traumatizing things do one of two things to a person’s soul, spirit, psyche. And those two things are on a spectrum, they’re not black and white, but on the two ends of the spectrum are, I will never let that happen to me ever again. I’ll do whatever it takes to make sure that doesn’t happen to me ever. And this is on the other side, for those who are listening and not seeing on the other end is, Oh, this is why people are so crazy and wounded. I have empathy.” - Ross King“We, in addition to grieving the actual thing that’s happening, we have to grieve the death of the life we wanted. Because it’s a real thing. And no one knows how to help us with that, right?” - Ross King“If your marriage falls apart, there’s a divorce proceeding. If someone dies, there’s a funeral. If there’s a loss of a job, there is a severance package or unemployment. This particular loss, there is no system for it. And so you have to weep and learn to [deal with the notion]; I wanted my life to be different.” - Ross King Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Leonard, the Lonely Astronaut album by Andrew OsengaAl GoreMitt Romney*Watch this interview on the YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Ross King’s websiteRoss King’s YouTubeRoss King’s InstagramRoss King’s Facebook Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

On this week’s episode of The Pivot, Andrew sits down with designer, author, and cohost of Fixer to Fabulous, Jenny Marrs. Jenny reflects on the unexpected path to her current career, emphasizing how learning through trial and error shaped her understanding that there’s no single right way to do things. She shares the importance of slowing down, acknowledging past experiences, and approaching life with an open-handed mindset. It’s about recognizing that every good thing, every opportunity, every phase, can shift, and we need to be okay with that, trusting that what comes next, even after challenges, can be truly remarkable. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “Anybody who’s ever renovated or built a new home, you think you’ve got everything figured out and you move in and a month or two later, you’re like, Oh, I wish I would have done this. Everybody does that; we did that every two years. I got to learn what worked, how homes functioned best and still looked beautiful.” - Jenny Marrs“I think a front porch is so important to a home, the idea that fifty years ago, people would sit and wave to their neighbors and stop by and chat. That no longer really happens. We love our front porch, it’s the place where we start our day most often. You get outside for a minute and breathe and sit in the rocking chair. It’s that idea of connecting with being outside, connecting with people.” - Jenny Marrs “Look out the window right now. I have my windows open and the birds are chirping and you can’t help but slow down for a second when you’re walking past. Even those thirty seconds are so important for resetting our frazzled pace of life.” - Jenny Marrs“Technology has kind of taken us away from the act of lingering and abiding in the presence of God. I mean, you can open your phone and search anything and you get an instantaneous answer. We have to step away from the busy and the frazzled and the hurried lifestyle that we all lead and it’s really hard to do. Otherwise, you’re losing this connection to your soul and to God and to each other.” - Jenny Marrs“I have learned to be open-handed with everything, because there’s seasons when you have to close the door on things that are really important to you or you feel passionate about, and you can’t imagine closing the door. But if for some reason God said it’s over, I will mourn it and grieve it but I will know that on the other side is the beauty and the abundance of being obedient to God's calling.” - Jenny Marrs Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Newell BrandsWalmart The Berry FarmMarrs Mercantile *Watch this interview on the YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Guest’s Links: Jenny Marrs’ websiteJenny Marrs’ FacebookJenny Marrs’ InstagramFixer to Fabulous YouTube Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

This week on The Pivot, we’re joined by our long-time friend, the incredibly talented musician and songwriter, Andy Gullahorn. While Andy is still a full-time musician—a career he’s passionately pursued for years—he’s approaching it in wonderfully different ways. We dive into the stories behind his fantastic new record, Winning Streak, and how his unique approach to songwriting often includes those signature left hooks that can make you laugh and cry in the same breath. Andy shares insights into the unexpected circuit of his career, from playing music at intensive therapy retreats where he now co-leads small groups, to the hilarious and heartfelt origins of “grinching” (yes, it involves Christmas trees and a U-Haul), and the enduring tradition of the hi-five with his friend Gabe. We also learn about the joy of Silent Bob Euchre, a card game played in public places without speaking—a testament to Andy’s belief in the power of silly, shared experiences. Join us for a truly fun conversation that explores how Andy finds depth, connection, and even a bit of performance art in both his music and his wonderfully unconventional life. Thought-Provoking Quotes: “I played the same stage after it was abandoned for thirty years, but that’s the kind of stuff people leave off of their bio—the second half of the sentence. But I have shared the stage with the Spice Girls.” - Andy Gullahorn“I’ve always loved playing songs for people in the context of their life. I don’t really like getting in and leaving without knowing where I am.” - Andy Gullahorn“We called it grinching because it felt like you were shoving a Christmas tree up a chimney when you were trying to shove it into a Sienna. And then we would literally play ‘You’re A Mean One, Mr. Grinch’ on repeat in the car.” - Andy Gullahhorn“If there’s something ridiculous you can do that is not harming anybody and some people are going to look at it and be like, ‘I don't understand it. That's weird.’ To me, it’s like a little art piece in the world. I try to collect that as much as I can.” - Andy Gullahorn Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:Andy Gullahorn’s new record, Winning Streak Winning Streak (Vinyl + CD) - SIGNED OVERPAY - Andy Gullahorn“I Saw a Stranger With Your Hair” by John Gorka David Wilcox (musician)Pierce Pettis (musician)“The Chair” by George StraitSurfing for God by Mike Cusick Guest’s LinksAndy Gullahorn’s websiteAndy Gullahorn’s FacebookAndy Gullahorn’s InstagramAndy Gullahorn’s XAndy Gullahorn’s YouTube *Watch this interview on the YouTube channel! *All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. Connect with Andrew: WebsiteYouTubeSubstackSpotifyFacebookInstagramHow to Remember by Andrew OsengaHold the Light by Andrew Osenga *The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.