The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill

From the creators of the hit podcast The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill comes a new show, Devil and the Deep Blue Sea, which takes you back to the Satanic Panic that gripped America in the 1980s and 90s. This limited series explores how hysteria gripped parents and teens through cautionary tales like Go Ask Alice, influenced notorious criminal cases like the West Memphis Three, and catapulted the political agenda of the Moral Majority. Join as we seek to understand how this wave of panic devastated innocent lives and diverted the church’s attention from the evil lurking in its own pews. Episodes drop January 2025 but you can join our show discussion page on Facebook right now. Devil and the Deep Blue Sea is a production of Christianity Today Host and Creator - Mike Cosper Producer - Rebekah Sebastian Sound Design and Engineering - T.J. Hester Motion - Steven Scheidler Production Assistant - Dawn Adams Theme music by Dirt Poor Robins Cover art by Nim Ben-Reuven Erik Petrik and Mike Cosper are the Executive Producers of CT Media Podcasts, and Matt Stevens is our Senior Producer. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When author and therapist Dan Allender met Mark Driscoll in 1998, he hoped the two might share building space for their respective ministries. While conversations remained cordial, it didn't take long for Allender to realize he and Mark aimed to build entirely different institutions -- Allender, a school for healing and trauma care, and Mark, a faith community with the aspirations of Babel. Narcissism would keep the two from building on a common foundation. Thirty years later, Allender joins host Mike Cosper for an honest conversation about where that narcissism led and how Mars Hill Church and the city of Seattle suffered under its dogmatism. With incisive yet gentle wisdom, Allender opens the aperture beyond Mars Hill to discuss how trauma creates wounds on which narcissism thrives, how the numbness of anger can lead to isolation, and how the very real joy of spiritual connection can leave hurting people confused and ashamed after the structures they've trusted crumble. If you've experienced spiritual abuse or you desire deeper honesty and humility in ministry, this bonus episode offers a foundational conversation about how to face trauma, how to identify unhealthy leadership patterns, and how to resist the siren call of sin that lures Christians to greatness without cost. For more information about Dan Allender’s work, visit theallendercenter.org “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today Executive Producer: Erik Petrik Producer, Writer, Host, and Mix Engineer: Mike Cosper Editor: Mark Owens Associate Producers: Joy Beth Smith and Azurae Phelps Music and Sound Design: Kate Siefker Graphic Design: Bryan Todd Social Media: Kate Lucky Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Bonus Episode: A Conversation With Tim Keller Mike Cosper sits down with Tim Keller for reflections on leadership, the troubles with networks, and the essential need for communion with God. Tim Keller moved to New York City in 1989 to plant Redeemer Presbyterian Church. In the three decades since, he’s become one of the most influential voices in American evangelicalism. Several of his books have become bestsellers. City to City, the church planting network he co-founded, has planted more than 800 churches. He also co-founded The Gospel Coalition (TGC), an alliance of pastors and theologians with a shared theological vision. Today, TGC hosts events around the world, draws thousands to its national conferences, and publishes resources online that serve millions of readers, viewers, and listeners. In this conversation, Keller reflects on the challenges of movements, denominations, and networks, as well as his connections with Mark Driscoll, both at the Spanish River Church Network and in The Gospel Coalition. He talks about the limits of institutions, as well as the limits of accountability, and how the only reliable way to guard your heart in ministry is a wholehearted commitment to the pursuit of God in prayer. This conversation was recorded in early May, 2022. “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today Executive Producer: Erik Petrik Producer, Writer, Host, and Mix Engineer: Mike Cosper Editor: TJ Hester Associate Producers: Joy Beth Smith and Azurae Phelps Music and Sound Design: Kate Siefker Graphic Design: Bryan Todd Social Media: Kate Lucky Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Mars Hill’s music grew out of the same counter-cultural ethos that defined the rest of its ministry. Most of the church’s founding members thought Christian contemporary music was too saccharine and polished for their tastes, and what evolved at Mars Hill reflected the gritty and dark sounds of the city around them. But like many other facets of the Mars Hill story, there was much behind the music. Often selected for their charisma and talent, Mars Hill bands found that few cared about the condition of their souls or the posture of their spirits. Chad Gardner became a worship leader later in the church’s history, having grown up listening to the church’s music. His eventual decision to leave would mean sacrificing community and intellectual property rights over his band’s contributions to the ministry. Some band members, damaged by various spiritual abuses, would leave the faith altogether. In this bonus episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, host Mike Cosper sits down with Chad Gardner, worship leader at Mars Hill, to hear the hard and beautiful stories of the music that defined the community. Peek backstage for a glimpse of what worship leadership meant in this alternative church culture, and hear stories behind some of Kings Kaleidoscope’s albums. Finally, find out why Chad told us, “I never wanted to do a duet with Mark.” “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today Executive Producer: Erik Petrik Producer, Writer, Editor, Host, and Mix Engineer: Mike Cosper Associate Producers: Joy Beth Smith and Azurae Phelps Music and Sound Design: Kate Siefker Graphic Design: Bryan Todd Social Media: Kate Lucky Editorial Consultant: Andrea Palpant Dilley Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple Theme Song: “Sticks and Stones” Kings Kaleidoscope Additional Music: Brad Currah, Red Letter, Team Strike Force, The Sing Team, Citizens, and Kings Kaleidoscope Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Five days after resigning as lead pastor of Mars Hill Church, Mark Driscoll was once again in front of a crowd—this time, a packed conference of pastors who offered him a standing ovation in support. It only took 474 days for him to announce he was planting a new church in Scottsdale, Arizona. But while Driscoll wielded his own force of personality to get as much distance from Mars Hill as possible, life in Seattle was a different story. A confused and hurting church was displaced, hundreds of people were out of their jobs, and the fiercest critics of the church practically threw a party. In our series finale, we follow a few of those threads, which led some people to new ministries, others to new careers, and still others out of the church altogether. We’ll revisit the legacy of Driscoll’s teaching on gender, and we’ll ask whether or not he really preached good news and freedom. We’ll also look for the presence of Christ, working in surprising and unseen ways to bring beauty out of the ashes of what was once Mars Hill Church. As we end 2021, we’d love to invite you to join us as we continue to try to tell stories like this. Subscriptions are a great way to do that, and we’d love if you considered us with your end-of-year giving. “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today Executive produced by Erik Petrik Produced, written, and edited by Mike Cosper Joy Beth Smith is our associate producer. Music and sound design by Kate Siefker and Mike Cosper Our theme song for this finale is “Resplendent” by Bill Mallonee and the Vigilantes of Love. The closing song this week is “All My Favorite People” by Over the Rhine. Special thanks to Ben Vandermeer Graphic design by Bryan Todd Social media by Kara Bettis and Morgan Lee Editorial consulting by Andrea Palpant Dilley CT’s Editor in Chief is Timothy Dalrymple. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Contrary to Mars Hill lore, Mark Driscoll didn’t plant his church alone. Though he prized the image of a solo, entrepreneurial pastor, Driscoll found early success thanks to two co-planters, a sending church, and a network of support. And three thousand miles away in Boca Raton, Florida, the concept of the Acts 29 church network was already taking shape as an offshoot of the Spanish River Church Planting Network. Church planting requires a certain audacity, and in the early 1970’s nobody had more than David Nicholas. Founder of Spanish River Church, David’s burden for evangelism took shape in mentoring relationships with pastors starting congregations of their own. A planter himself, David empathized with those who felt lonely in that particular calling, and he sought to encourage and empower leaders by offering them community -- a network in which they could receive the care, training and accountability to do their jobs well. In this episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, host Mike Cosper invites us into the room with David Nicholas and Mark Driscoll -- two church planters with widely divergent visions for what constituted successful church growth. Tracing the Acts 29 network from its beginnings, Cosper asks whether any leadership potential is worth overlooking red flags, and whether the broader church actually has what it takes to mentor young leaders with issues of character. “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today Executive Producer: Erik Petrik Producer, Writer, Editor, and Host: Mike Cosper Additional Editing: Resonate Recordings and Matt Linder Associate Producer: Joy Beth Smith Music, Sound Design, and Mix Engineer: Kate Siefker Graphic Design: Bryan Todd Social Media: Nicole Shanks Editorial Consultant: Andrea Palpant Dilley Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple Theme song: “Sticks and Stones” by Kings Kaleidoscope Closing song: “Citizens” by Jon Guerra Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In 2006, Mark Driscoll met with a group of Seattle pastors who were worried about Mars Hill’s public witness. Mark had risen to prominence with pugilistic bravado, and local leaders expressed concern that his tone and language about women and, in this particular instance, pastors’ wives hurt the perception of the church in their largely unchurched city. Despite their best efforts to connect on common ground, the meeting’s leaders counted the event a failure. Remarkable success had isolated Mark from the average person on whom his words fell. His institution had insulated him from critique. The meeting revealed clearly that power protected Mark from accountability. Your pastor doesn’t need outsized fame and acclaim to fall prey to the seduction of power, and neither do you. In this episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, host Mike Cosper looks to the world of sports to illustrate how power corrupts and how, when we abdicate our roles as gatekeepers for one another, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Step onto the basketball courts at Indiana University and behind the pulpit at Mars Hill to see how power becomes a strong drug that justifies abuse, keeps truth from speaking, and distances us from our shared humanity. “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today Executive Producer: Erik Petrik Producer, Writer, Editor, and Host: Mike Cosper Additional Editing: Resonate Recordings and Matt Linder Associate Producer: Joy Beth Smith Music, Sound Design, and Mix Engineer: Kate Siefker Graphic Design: Bryan Todd Social Media: Nicole Shanks Editorial Consultant: Andrea Palpant Dilley Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple Theme song: “Sticks and Stones” by Kings Kaleidoscope Closing song: “Anger” by Treva Blomquist Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There’s a profound power to storytelling. In all kinds of communities, the stories we tell about who we are and where we came from are life-shaping. At Mars Hill, one of the oft-told stories was about Mark Driscoll’s origin and calling. It began with the gift of a bible from his future wife. That was the catalyst to faith, and a walk in the woods a few months later led to an experience of hearing God’s audible voice and calling: “Marry Grace, plant Mars Hill, preach the Bible, and train men.” That story was repeated countless times at Mars Hill, lending Driscoll a sense of both authority and purpose, and inviting the church to get caught up in that mission with him. This shorter episode dives deeper into this “founding myth” of Mars Hill, and how it evolved over time. It also explores the formative, almost liturgical effect it had on the church, and raises the question of how it might have contributed to a fragile architecture at the heart of the church. The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill is a production of Christianity Today It’s executive produced by Erik Petrik It’s produced, written, and edited by Mike Cosper Joy Beth Smith is our associate producer. Music, and sound design, by Kate Siefker and Mike Cosper This episode was mixed by Mike Cosper Our theme song is “Sticks and Stones” by King’s Kaleidescope. Special thanks to Ben Vandermeer Graphic Design by Bryan Todd Social Media by Nicole Shanks Editorial consulting by Andrea Palpant Dilley CT’s Editor in Chief is Timothy Dalrymple Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

A Bonus Episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill Love it or hate it, if you grew up in a youth group after 1997, you probably had to reckon with Joshua Harris’s I Kissed Dating Goodbye, his treatise on dating and courtship. The book sold millions and made him, in Collin Hansen’s terms, an “evangelical boy wonder.”At 29 years old he became the lead pastor of a Maryland megachurch and a rising star in Sovereign Grace Ministries. But when that movement was torn apart by controversy, conflict, and accusations of a systemic cover-up of child abuse, he found himself reeling, unsure of his calling and convictions. He left ministry in 2015, and in 2019, announced that he no longer identified as a Christian. In this bonus episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, we’ll explore Josh’s story as a contemporary of Mark Driscoll, someone who was his polar opposite in temperament, and who’s struggles in ministry led to a divergent outcome. We’ll talk about faith, doubt, and celebrity, and discuss how Christians might think about their own doubts and deconstruction, recognizing them as a normal part of the Christian life. Subscriptions to CT are one of the best ways to support this kind of journalism. If you want to help us continue doing this kind of work, consider joining today at orderct.com/marshill. “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today Executive Producer: Erik Petrik Producer, Writer, Editor, and Host: Mike Cosper Associate Producer: Joy Beth Smith Music and Sound Design: Kate Siefker and Mike Cosper Mix Engineer: Mike Cosper Graphic Design: Bryan Todd Social Media: Nicole Shanks Editorial Consultant: Andrea Palpant Dilley Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple Theme song: “Sticks and Stones” by Kings Kaleidoscope Closing song: “Spirit (Keep On)” by Jeremy Casella Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Mark Driscoll rose to prominence in the early days of the Internet. Unlike his megapastor predecessors like Robert Schuller and Bill Hybels, Driscoll harnessed technology to build his brand and bypass cultural gatekeepers who might hinder or influence his success. He formed a talented media team that would expand his reach and, inadvertently, reinforce his ego through an online presence. Quickly though, his star rose too far, keeping him at arm’s length from the collaboration and counsel of those who could lend wisdom to his youthful, combustive pastoral ministry. In this episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, host Mike Cosper breaks down how technology shaped the messaging and marketing of Mark Driscoll and how personal brand can isolate a leader even as it fuels a ministry’s growth. Cosper interviews broadly, from Mars Hill media team members to Collin Hansen of The Gospel Coalition, to investigate how narcissism grows, how theological movements birth new leaders, and why the church’s love affair with charisma and certainty demands we develop a better moral imagination. Rethink your admiration for celebrity pastors. Reevaluate your attraction to religious trends. And, reflect on your own willingness to stand “sola” when church becomes about something other than the Gospel. “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today Executive Producer: Erik Petrik Producer, Writer, Editor, and Host: Mike Cosper Associate Producer: Joy Beth Smith Music, Sound Design, and Mix Engineer: Kate Siefker Graphic Design: Bryan Todd Social Media: Nicole Shanks Editorial Consultant: Andrea Palpant Dilley Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple Theme song: “Sticks and Stones” by Kings Kaleidoscope Closing song: “Bang” by Moda Spira Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Mark Driscoll’s vision of manhood indelibly shaped Mars Hill culture. Drawing from his own difficult childhood story, Mark created an ideal for those searching for meaning and direction. Men responded enthusiastically. From “dad talks” about issues about sex, career and family to “holy anger” over a feminized church culture, he invited men into a stirring narrative where manning up meant passionately loving God and their families. In this episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, host Mike Cosper digs deep into the mythic origin story that shaped Mark Driscoll’s ministry to men. He reveals Mark as far more than just an agent of chaos but a man deeply concerned for the health and spirituality of other men, intent on pastoring them toward flourishing. And as Driscoll’s particular brand of masculinity grew toxic, Cosper asks the poignant question, “Why do you stay when things get bad?” How do you reckon with the movement of the Spirit in your midst when your community begins to shatter? “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today Executive Producer: Erik Petrik Producer, Writer, Editor, and Host: Mike Cosper Associate Producer: Joy Beth Smith Music, Sound Design, and Mix Engineer: Kate Siefker Graphic Design: Bryan Todd Social Media: Nicole Shanks Editorial Consultant: Andrea Palpant Dilley Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple Theme song: “Sticks and Stones” by Kings Kaleidoscope Closing song: "Dynamite" by Sandra McCracken Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the mid-1950s, Rev. Robert Schuller began preaching in a drive-in movie theater in Southern California. He melded traditions like vestments with a theology of post-war optimism and self-esteem. As his ministry grew, guest preaching in his pulpit became a mark of celebrity achievement. Three decades after his drive-in movie days, Schuller would welcome a young Mark Driscoll to the microphone to speak. To understand the Mars Hill phenomenon, you have to understand how big churches developed in the boomer and Gen X years, how the franchising of churches led to homogenized congregational culture, and how pastors became spokesmen and CEOs. When Mark Driscoll arrived to preach at the Crystal Cathedral, he had already walked a ministry path paved by the likes of Schuller, Bill Hybels, and Rick Warren—leaders who dedicated significant time to demographic research as well as expository study. In this episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, host Mike Cosper flips the tapestry of the Mars Hill story to expose the weaving of threads beneath. He explores how the identity of a church can become wrapped around one man and why a host of leaders might fall in step to protect him in order to save the institution. Here, you can read an interview with David Di Sabatino, director of Frisbee: The Life and Death of a Hippie Preacher. “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today Executive Producer: Erik Petrik Producer, Writer, Editor, and Host: Mike Cosper Associate Producer: Joy Beth Smith Music, Sound Design, and Mix Engineer: Kate Siefker Graphic Design: Bryan Todd Social Media: Nicole Shanks Editorial Consultant: Andrea Palpant Dilley Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple Theme song: “Sticks and Stones” by Kings Kaleidoscope Closing song: “Crush” by The Violet Burning Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices