The Themed Attraction Podcast

Our guest this episode is Johnny Davis, a master of storytelling and immersive experience design. Johnny is the Senior Creative Director at Storyland Studios and a lifelong storyteller dedicated to crafting experiences that forge emotional connections. From the thought-provoking Poverty Encounter to the action-packed Avengers S.T.A.T.I.O.N., Johnny has a knack for bringing stories to life in ways that inspire, engage, and resonate. With his unmatched ability to guide projects from concept to completion, Johnny has left his mark on some of the industry’s most iconic experiences—many of which remain under wraps for now. Join us as we explore his creative journey, the art of storytelling, and what it takes to craft meaningful, immersive experiences. Connect with Johnny at StorylandStudios.com and give him a high five on LinkedIn. Show hosts: Mel McGowan & Freddy Martin Show design & production: Barry R. Hill Theme music composed by Rob Watson, closing music by the Lost Dogs. Give us a shoutout on Apple Podcasts and wherever you listen to us; we love the attention, and browse www.themedattraction.com for even more on the attractions industry. Thanks for listening!

Our guest is Patrick Kling, a powerhouse of creativity and innovation in themed entertainment. Patrick is an unstoppable creative force whose work spans interactive attractions, immersive theme park lands, and even a 20,000-square-foot ice sculpture experience chilled to a crisp 9 degrees! With a career that’s taken him through Nickelodeon and SeaWorld parks, Patrick’s passion for storytelling and design shines through in every project. As the Co-Founder of the Big Break Foundation, he’s also leading the charge to break down barriers and create a more inclusive future in location-based entertainment. Join us as we explore Patrick’s creative journey, his groundbreaking work, and how he’s making a difference both in the industry and beyond. Connect with Patrick at bigbreakfoundation.org, watch Patrick’s TETV video interviews on youtube, or shake hands with him on LinkedIn. Show hosts: Mel McGowan & Freddy Martin Show design & production: Barry R. Hill Theme music composed by Rob Watson, closing music by the Lost Dogs. Give us a shoutout on Apple Podcasts and wherever you listen to us; we love the attention, and browse www.themedattraction.com for even more on the attractions industry. Thanks for listening!

In this episode, we sit down with Jeanette Lomboy, Vice President, Executive Producer, Creative, at Walt Disney Imagineering. Jeanette has led the development of some of Disney’s most beloved modern experiences, from the serene beauty of Aulani to the immersive worlds of Pandora – The World of Avatar and Avengers Campus. Her journey from Disneyland ride operator to shaping entire parks is a testament to her passion, creativity, and commitment to authentic storytelling. And here’s the twist: we recorded this conversation live on the IAAPA Expo show floor—complete with 3D glasses and a massive 3D video screen! Join us for this one-of-a-kind, immersive interview as Jeanette shares behind-the-scenes stories, creative insights, and the magic behind the experiences that transport millions of guests to worlds beyond imagination. Connect with Jeanette on Instagram or shake hands with her on LinkedIn. Show hosts: Mel McGowan & Freddy Martin Show design & production: Barry R. Hill Theme music composed by Rob Watson, closing music by the Lost Dogs. Give us a shoutout on iTunes; we love the attention, and browse www.themedattraction.com for even more on the attractions industry. Thanks for listening!

Our guests this episode are collaborators on the new book How Does Disney Do That?: How Disney Makes Us Feel and Why It Matters, James Warda and Theron Skees. Many books cover Disney, but James Warda and former Imagineering executive Theron Skees take a unique approach: exploring “why” and “how” Disney creates such powerful, emotional connections. Through conversations with former Imagineers, cast members, and fans, James uncovers patterns behind our love for Disney—and insights we can bring to our own lives. The journey is fun, sometimes whimsical, and always meaningful, enhanced by Theron’s insider perspective from leading iconic projects like Disney Springs and Disney cruise ships. With a foreword by Disney Legend Joe Rohde, the book also supports Give Kids The World Village in Kissimmee, FL. Looking to grab your own copy of How Does Disney Do That? Here’s how: Order directly from Rivershore Press Visit RivershorePress.com and use code DISNEYSHIPFREE at checkout for free shipping. Amazon How Does Disney Do That?: How Disney Makes Us Feel and Why It Matters Share your stories! James & Theron would love to hear your Disney experiences. Submit your stories through our website or join the conversation in our social groups: HowDoesDisneyDoThat.com Facebook Group LinkedIn Group Support a great cause! A portion of the book’s proceeds supports Give Kids The World Village® in Kissimmee, FL. Learn more about this wonderful organization at GKTW.org. Connect with James Warda on LinkedIn. Connect with Theron Skees on LinkedIn. Show hosts: Mel McGowan & Freddy Martin Show design & production: Barry R. Hill Theme music composed by Rob Watson, closing music by the Lost Dogs. Give us a shoutout on iTunes; we love the attention, and browse www.themedattraction.com for even more on the attractions industry. Thanks for listening!

Our guest is Theme Park Developer, DeLisa Guerrier. With her husband Elde, DeLisa Guerrier personally oversees commercial, residential, and industrial developments in and around Nashville, with a focus on investing in emerging neighborhoods. She’s also dedicated to children’s causes and is a key player in Nashville’s philanthropic circles. And in the spirit of Walt Disney, she’s building her own dream land to make others’ dreams a reality – Storyville Gardens. So light up those earbuds and get ready to feel the momentum in the Themed Attraction Podcast interview with DeLisa Guerrier. Connect with DeLisa at StoryvilleGardens.com or follow her on Instagram @delisaguerrier, or shake hands with her on LinkedIn. Show hosts: Mel McGowan & Freddy Martin Show design & production: Barry R. Hill Theme music composed by Rob Watson, closing music by the Lost Dogs. Give us a shoutout on iTunes; we love the attention, and browse www.themedattraction.com for even more on the attractions industry. Thanks for listening!

Today, we’re focusing on “designing with purpose” with my friend and mentor, Anthony Esparza. Anthony is an expert in creating unforgettable guest experiences. With a career spanning SeaWorld Parks & Entertainment, Nickelodeon, Paramount Pictures, and more, he’s known for infusing every project with purpose. Join us for our second interview with Anthony as we explore his vast expertise in attractions, resorts, live entertainment, and media. Connect with Anthony at EsparzaHQ.com or on LinkedIn. Show hosts: Mel McGowan & Freddy Martin Show design & production: Barry R. Hill Theme music composed by Rob Watson, closing music by the Lost Dogs. Give us a shoutout on iTunes; we love the attention, and browse www.themedattraction.com for even more on the attractions industry. Thanks for listening!

Our guest is Dark Ride master designer, John Wood of Sally Dark Rides. John is truly a pioneer and innovator in the theme park industry, and most specifically in the design, development and execution of some of the world’s most iconic dark rides. John co-founded Sally Dark Rides 45 years ago to turn his clients dreams into rideable realities, with thrilling adventures, IP branded attractions, and unique storytelling experiences worldwide. Connect with John Wood at SallyDarkRides.com and on LinkedIn. Show hosts: Mel McGowan & Freddy Martin Show design & production: Barry R. Hill Theme music composed by Rob Watson, closing music by the Lost Dogs. Give us a shoutout on iTunes; we love the attention, and browse www.themedattraction.com for even more on the attractions industry. Thanks for listening!  

Come See Us LIVE at IAAPA 2023 This quick episode gives you all the details of our LIVE Episode Recordings during IAAPA! Come visit the Storyland Studios Booth #1373 at 11am on Tuesday, Wednesday & Thursday (11/14-17) to listen in on LIVE recordings of the Themed Attraction Podcast. Jeffrey Burton – Former WED Imagineer: Tuesday 11/14 @ 11AM Linda Alcorn McBride – Former WDI Imagineer & Disney’s first female engineer: Wednesday 11/15 @ 11AM John Wood – President of Sally Dark Rides: Thursday 11/16 @ 11AM  

Our guests are David and Valeria Beaudry of Beaudry Interactive. This dynamic duo of dynamic experiences have developed the technology to bring to life in voice and personality some of our most beloved walk-around characters in parks today, including that tallest of yellow friends, Big Bird. They were honored with a TEA Thea Award for this technology which is making authentic interactive environments a reality in parks and experiences worldwide. Connect with David and Valeria at binteractive.com and on LinkedIn. Show hosts: Mel McGowan & Freddy Martin Show design & production: Barry R. Hill Theme music composed by Rob Watson, closing music by the Lost Dogs. Give us a shoutout on iTunes; we love the attention, and browse www.themedattraction.com for even more on the attractions industry. Thanks for listening!

Our guest is TEA Master and founder of The Bezark Company, Adam Bezark. His storied career from WDI to Landmark Entertainment Group allowed him opportunities to conceive and design monstrous IP attractions such as Jurassic Park: The Ride, the JAWS ride, and Terminator 2:3D for Universal. For WDI, he co-directed the beloved IllumiNations nighttime spectacular at Epcot, and he was the show writer for Pirates of the Caribbean: Battle for the Sunken Treasure at Shanghai Disneyland. Connect with Adam at Bezark.com https://bezark.com/ and on LinkedIn. Show hosts: Mel McGowan & Freddy Martin Show design & production: Barry R. Hill Theme music composed by Rob Watson, closing music by the Lost Dogs. Give us a shoutout on iTunes; we love the attention, and browse www.themedattraction.com for even more on the attractions industry. Thanks for listening!

In this episode of the Themed Attraction Podcast, our guest is Sina Bahram, the founder of Prime Access Consulting, and one of the Themed Entertainment Association’s first ever Catalyst Award recipients. Sina’s inclusive design firm helps attraction designers implement accessible solutions that make knowledge, culture, and technology available to the widest possible audience. Connect with Sina Bahram on LinkedIn, via his website at pac.bz and follow him on Twitter. Show hosts: Mel McGowan & Freddy Martin Show design & production: Barry R. Hill Theme music composed by Rob Watson, closing music by the Lost Dogs. Give us a shoutout on iTunes; we love the attention, and browse www.themedattraction.com for even more on the attractions industry. Thanks for listening! Transcript of this episode: Freddy (00:20): Welcome aboard the Themed Attraction Podcast, where we take you for a ride… through the wonderful world of theme park design that is. You’ve just set sail on an unmatched journey of discovery and discussion with theme park industry master of the craft. I’m your skipper, Freddy Martin, and riding the rippling river with me is theme park designer, master planner, and Chief Creative Officer for Storyland studios, Mel McGowan. Which way is the river taken us today, Mel? Mel (00:47): Freddy, we’ve got a unique episode on the horizon day. As we interview one of the Themed Entertainment Association’s first ever Catalyst Award recipients, Sina Bahram. Sina is the founder of Prime Access Consulting. That’s an inclusive design firm that helps attraction designers implement accessible solutions that make knowledge, culture, and technology available to the widest possible audience. And that we are so excited to have him as part of our extended team for a very special project, which I’m hoping you’re allowed to talk about here. Freddy (01:16): Maybe a little bit. Sina is unique. I had the pleasure of hearing him speak at the TEA Summit and I knew his story would blow our audience away. So I had to ask him to be on the show. I immediately asked him to join us for an interview and he didn’t disappoint. I’m telling you. His passion and enthusiasm for helping create experiences for everyone is infectious. I dare you to match his enthusiasm. All righty folks, keep your hands, arms feet and legs inside the boat, ’cause This episode is about to leave the dock. Hit it, Sam. Mel (02:04): You know, Freddy, when the ADA or Americans with disability act passed in 1990 that was a pretty groundbreaking deal for the certainly the architecture industry for the real estate development industry. You know, and actually we’re excited to be working with one of the catalysts that really kind of worked to get hat passed. You know, and it has radically, of course changed the way new attractions are built, how old attractions are modified. I mean, some of the blatantly obvious examples, like the alternative experience with the Nemo sub ride, with the with the, the sleeping beauty castle walkthrough experience. Those are some, you know, kind of obvious examples, but quick question to you, as you’ve been able to go deep with this particular unique project and, really getting a broader understanding of the “specially abled” the disabilities of inclusive design. You know, my question is how should we approach attraction and experience design with the needs of our entire audience in mind? I mean, I’m asking that as a father of a deaf son and you know, we, you know, different kids with different types of dis learning disabilities you know, how do, how, how do we come across this if, if we’re not experiencing some of this stuff ourselves. Freddy (03:26): Yeah. It’s a, it’s an amazing question to, to ponder and think about. And the you’re hinting at a project that we’re working on, which is really part of the mission of one of the biggest disability advocacy organizations in the world. And they’ve asked us to help create a space for them that tells the story of disability for people around the world. But, you know, if we were to build it for all able bodied people, all sighted people, all people who can hear if we were to build it for people who don’t have any disabilities at all, and yet sort of, you know, wedge in some, some ramps and wedge in some braille here and there are we really trying to speak to the people that we’re trying to advocate for and to tell their story. And the answer really is no. And if, we’re not thinking from the beginning of a project from the very moment we start doing a blue sky from the moment we start telling the story and thinking about what kind of experiences should we have here – if we’re not thinking about those people with disabilities, who will be darkening, the doors of these things, then we’re not creating an attraction that is for everybody. It’s actually excluding some people, which is a heavy burden to bear. Mel (04:51): It actually reminds of just Walt Disney’s empathy, you know, of requiring his team to enter Disney as a guest. You know, not to be some VIP backdoor front of line, you know, anything, but to actually not only walk in, be in the same queues as his guest yeah. To actually get on a knee and look at something from a child’s perspective. I mean, it’s really just an extension of that idea of walking in someone else’s moccasins and seeing things from a different perspective and taking that time to put yourself in someone’s different perception & perspective. Freddy (05:27): I think we all think from the outset, if we’re gonna create some sort of attraction, we want everybody to be involved in it. We want everybody to come, but it’s when we start thinking, we want to create something for the widest possible audience that that’s taking a whole new perspective. And that’s a challenge for us in the industry, but I think it’s something that we’re, we’re going right after. And I think there’s a hunger for it, especially in today’s climate where you really do want to make everyone feel welcome. Well, our guest today is Sina Barham, an accessibility consultant, researcher, speaker, and entrepreneur. He’s an academic and recognized expert in accessibility technologies. He helps companies devise innovative and user-entered solutions to significant real-world problems. In 2022, he was honored with the Themed Entertainment Association’s Thea catalyst award for his contributions towards making more accessible and inclusive experiences worldwide. Freddy (06:29): Oh, one more thing. Sina gave me the interview on one condition <laugh> and that’s that we add transcripts to this podcast to include more people. So guess what, you’re now listening to the first ever episode transcripted for our deaf audience. And now our very special interview with Sina Bahram. Freddy (06:50): Well, Sina, it is a pleasure to meet with you and be with you today. We’re actually recording in the Blue Sky Suite at Disneyland Hotel, which is a pretty amazing moment for me. I’ve never been up in here. It’s pretty cool place. It’s all, mid-century modern full of fun, homages to old Disney rides, and the imagine what the Imagineers did in days past. But I am, I’m just so stoked to meet with you today because I just heard you speak on the stage of the TEA Summit about something really close to your heart. You talked about inclusivity and accessibility for people with all kinds of needs, a variety of needs. Can you tell me just how, how you started in this pursuit of trying to help places like theme parks or businesses tell their story better for people with disabilities? Sina (07:49): Sure. Well, I happen to be blind, so lived experience definitely influences the, the lens through which we approach this work. Right? And for me visceral firsthand experience of going to a theme park and maybe not having the most optimal experience, right? Or going to a museum and not having the most optimal experience. And, you know, you have a couple of choices, I guess at that point, you can either be upset about it or try to change that. And so what Corey Timpson and I do a ton of is essentially work in this space called inclusive design where things like you mentioned, accessibility, that’s an outcome, that’s a byproduct right, of inclusive design because we’re considering the entire vector of human difference from the beginning through the middle, after implementation in all the aspects of what we’re building, whether it’s a digital offering, a physical space, like a theme park and experience, and then how can we welcome the widest possible audience, in this particular case folks with different abilities, whether it’s mobility, cognitive, emotional, sensory, et cetera. Freddy (08:51): Yeah. Fantastic. Tell me a little bit about your story. You, mentioned a joke mm-hmm, <affirmative> in your, in your presentation, I’m gonna give you exactly what you were looking for in this joke. So hit me with it. <Laugh> Sina (09:08): Sure. But I mean, yeah. I lost most of my vision at around seven years old or so tennis ball thing, you know, I was, I was hitting a ball against a, a backboard. And so returning the serves and I, I missed one of them. My face did not. Right. <laugh> and thank you for the sympathy. Laugh as much Freddy (09:24): Appreciated. It’s not a sympathy laugh. When I heard it, I wanted to laugh. Yeah. Sina (09:29): Everybody was too uncomfortable. Freddy (09:30): Everybody’s too uncomfortable. We’re getting to know you. Sina (09:33): Yep. That’s, that’s exactly right. And you know, from that’s intentional, right? Like from that moment of discomfort, you can kind of, you can find out where people are. And you also can find out that, even talking about it, this was brought up earlier at the Summit, is difficult for folks. So much less doing something about it than has this perception of being difficult, but we’ll come back to that in a second. You asked about my background. So yes. You know, grew up blind. So definitely that’s a lot of lived-experience there and then ended up going to school for computer science, I’m ABD and a PhD in computer science and do a lot of work in tech, on the standards and legal side, et cetera, and deep technical standards and helping build places like museums and working on experiences. Sina (10:15): And the goal of all of this is to have a welcoming experience for audiences. Right? It’s to make people feel like they’re part of the group when I was a kid I went to a museum. I had a reasonable experience there, but you know, it kind of carved me up from the rest of my classmates. And then they’re like, okay, you’re gonna go with this guy. It was like a docent at the museum. Right. And he took me around, he, you know described some things to me and found things I could touch, et cetera, not there weren’t that many, you know, but then like it was this individualized separate experience. Right? It wasn’t part of the group. And so the goal is not only to make things quote, unquote accessible, but to make them inclusive. And the difference is an elevator makes something accessible, but a ramp makes it inclusive because everybody can take the ramp. But with the elevator, you’re already separating your audience based on ability, Freddy (11:03): Right? Yes, absolutely. And I think we, as when you bring your family from grandma on down to little kids, you want them to be engaged all together. You don’t want grandma to have a separate experience and the granddaughter to have a different experience. Exactly. Sina (11:20): That doesn’t mean they don’t rely on different things. We have kids that are gonna, you know, respond to certain pieces of the content, right. We’re gonna have you know, jokes and sometimes humor in there for the adults to keep them interested, you know, all these things. Freddy (11:32): That’s the Jungle Cruise for you. Sina (11:33): Exactly. So then why can’t we slip in a little bit of, instead of, as you can see here, what, you know, the, the monkeys and the trees are dot, dot dot, right? Yes. You just, you just in line the affordances in this case description for an audience that now all of a sudden, even though they can’t see what you’re talking about, when you combine it with the physicality and the aural, you know, the hearing of the experience, you’ve now completed that picture for them. And so that’s the goal. It’s not to take away from one experience and orthogonally, then give it to something else it’s to build on top of it in a redundant and multimodal, multisensory, if you will, way. But it’s important to understand just by making things multisensory, we don’t make them inclusive. Yes. Right. By making, you know, it’ll have audio, it’ll have video, it’ll have vibrotactile you’ll think, oh, well, this is great. This checks all the boxes. Right. It does. It just doesn’t make it inclusive because if they’re not designed intentionally to be redundant with one another and convey the same information, then we’re simply excluding people based on which sense they have. Freddy (12:31): Yes. And you expressed it so, well, I’m gonna say it to you and then you perfect it, because I’m not sure I caught it exactly how you said it, but it’s not that the person in the wheelchair needs to have an attraction made for them. They’re gonna experience it on a different level than another person, but that you made it so they could, or that you intentionally told the story for them as well, rather than leaving them out. Sina (13:01): That’s right. So the way of thinking of this is like the, I refer to the social or environmental model of disability. Yes. Where it’s the environment that’s disabling. So it’s not that we’re making something for wheelchair users. Yes. It’s that for the last few thousand years we’ve been making nothing four wheelchair use. And so then when we realize what the benefits are, it’s when you sprain your ankle, you’re also able to take advantage of that. That’s right. When you’re just tired, you’re able to take a seat because we thought about folks with, you know, various back injuries and did a good job with seating. Something museums are very known for not having enough of, right. It’s because when you put that description in to, let’s say some educational content, someone who’s looking down and taking notes on a laptop, doesn’t have to look up because you described it now that might be essential or critical for the blind student in the class. Sure. But it’s absolutely augmented it for absolutely everybody. And we know multiple modalities means higher engagement, higher memory retention. That’s for fun, exciting, awesome stories. It’s for educational stuff. It’s for anything in between. And so we need to change the way that we are designing things so that we’re being inclusive from the get go. And then we get all of these myriad of benefits along the way. Freddy (14:09): Yes. Talk to me a little bit about what that looks like when we say we’re gonna start with this in mind. Yeah. You, you also said you, you know, just cuz it has a, a ramp doesn’t mean <laugh>, it’s, it’s telling a good story. Sina (14:23): Right, right. Exactly. This is, this is exactly right. And so the content is king. Right. We all, we all, we all know that. Right. But it’s whom are we making that content for? And also do they see themselves in it, so there’s a representational issue to be aware of there. Sure. Then there’s also the difference between accessibility and inclusion. So if we’re doing something as an afterthought, that’s when we all talk about accessibility all day long. There’s nothing wrong when we’re talking about accessibility, those things we do specifically for persons with disabilities and those who use assistive technologies, that’s a good thing. We, we should be talking about how screen readers, access websites and how folks who rely on enlargement can access a document so they can zoom in without the images getting pixelated. That’s good stuff to be talking about, but we can also avoid, oh, I don’t know, 70/80% of those conversations by weaving inclusion in, at the beginning of the process. So what it looks like is in your ideation phase yes. In your schematic design, in your DD, leading into construction and all this stuff. Freddy (15:21): I’m doing that right now on three projects. Sina (15:23): Okay. Every one of those phases has a touchpoint, some more than others. You know, we’re really involved in a lot in DD, right. Maybe a little bit in schematic than a lot more like, you know, towards when things are getting built. Right? Yes. And what we are thinking about what we help our clients deal with is essentially how do we make the experience better, richer, more immersive. And by the way, we included another fourth, another 1.9 billion people along for the ride, both figuratively and literally. Freddy (15:51): Yes. Yes. I, you know, I was thinking I’m more getting towards the what and how to make, how to make it happen. As you were talking, I was thinking about, well, what would I do? Okay. So I have one particular project that takes place in a jungle. Okay. It’s a vibrant jungle sort of like if you’ve the Pandora experience over in Walt Disney World, so, but I know, and I was thinking specifically about you, how do I make this? And I, my immediate thought was, well, make sure the sound effects are intriguing, interesting and good… Sina (16:26): and accurate, and positioned in 3D space correctly, and matching the visuals that are going on. Yes. Right. That they’re described. And now how do we deliver that description? Is it a, earpiece? Is it mobile phone triggered based off of location or ultra wide band triggers or NFC or Bluetooth? Those are implementation level details. And we have a lot of different ways of doing that, but how do we respect the agency of the visitor? In order to receive or not receive those affordances. You may want captions because the bar is loud. I may rely on captions because maybe I didn’t understand what somebody is saying. My deaf friends rely on captions because that’s an equivalency for them. So they can understand both the language and the non-spoken audio in a media. So we all have different reasons for benefiting or wanting these things. The trick is when to come back to your question about how is, when do you think about that stuff? Well, you think about it during your production pipelines. You think about it. when you’re storyboarding a video and you realize if I make this pan 400 milliseconds longer, I just bought the audio describer two more words that he can slip in. It’s little things like that. Netflix does that stuff. Freddy (17:32): Yes! Sina (17:33): Another thing that comes to mind ever seen like a TV show where two characters are texting back and forth, you see the iPhone, bubbles going. Yes. Right. Well, you know what they’ve started doing now? Now the audio describer doesn’t even have anything to do in those scenes because the characters read out those, you’ve heard this. Right? They read out the text messages in their voice. They don’t even have to say, “Sarah says,” right, right. “Tom says,” “and then Sarah.” No, no, no, no, no. It’s in their own voice. And so then they’ll just announce it and they’ll announce it nonchalant as they are acting, you know, as the actor and all of a sudden, this is a storytelling technique. It’s an accessibility affordance. It’s inclusive. You know who’s talking. It checks all of those considerations without having to do a thing, other than in storyboarding and a little bit further on, we made a choice. We made an informed decision to let the characters say that stuff. Instead of having some music playing while bubbles are floating on Screen. Freddy (18:24): Yes. Right. Wow. That’s fantastic. And, and it’s not just getting the picture down, drawing the picture fast. Let’s be, we have to be mindful. Thoughtful. We’re mindful with many of the things that we care about. So we need to be mindful of that for everybody else who might be coming to our experience. Wow. That’s really fantastic. I’d love to kind of put you on the spot here. And tell me about some – these are theme park people we’re talking to, man. Every time I have somebody on here, we talk about what our favorite attraction is – but you’ve got this extra layer. So, tell me maybe your favorite attraction and then maybe your favorite inclusive technology or a thoughtfulness mindfulness that you’ve seen. Sina (19:11): So I’m gonna push back on favorite attraction because I’m going, I’m gonna claim it. It does not exist yet because they haven’t been built for me. So it doesn’t exist yet. You know, when I was a kid, I love space mountain. Yeah. But if you think about it, like, I didn’t experience about 80% of it. Right. When you’re in line and there’s like the, there was a graphics on the wall, you know, that’s and things . I couldn’t see any of those. Right. There was no description for that. The ride is all dark. So I guess, I mean, you know, maybe we’re in the same boat there. We all get to share an experience. But it’s, it’s that kind of thing where I still liked it don’t get me wrong. I got enjoyment out of it as a kid. Yes. And the people I was with and all those other things that compose human experience, but could it have been like a heck of a lot more inclusive? Yeah. And so I’m gonna, I’m gonna claim that my favorite attraction actually does not exist yet. And, and I wanna really help build that thing over the next 10 or 20 years because it’s necessary and we don’t need one of them. We need a hundred more of them so that this is normalized. And we’re norming on the fact that this is the way to do it. That it is actually a success criteria. Yes. For when, you know, I said this earlier this morning, it’s not done when somebody who uses crutches, can’t just get in the ride. It’s not done. If, for example, I, myself, who’s blind, can’t experience a movie or an IMAX kind of thing without having audio description available. We know the engineering on all this stuff. We work on everything you can imagine, from space all the way to like little historic houses with two person staffs. And, in all of those projects, what is, what is uniquely or I should say, what is not unique? What is the same across them is that it starts with the commitment to actually include people. And then you ask all of the logical questions you’re asking, okay, I’ve bought into that premise now, how do I do X? How do I do Y where do I think about A, B and C, and that’s sequencing, but it’s not, “where do I spend 10% more budget? It’s not “where do I get a delay of six months on my timeline?” If you sequence it correctly – and we do this kind of work all the time where we build roadmaps with clients – it’s actually about taking their existing effort spend. And then strategically saying, that’s a learning opportunity. Let’s finalize our color palette then, and also consider contrast. Let’s finalize our sound palette then, and also think about folks that might be neurodiverse and would like a sensory map of loud noises that are gonna be coming unexpected. But it’s things like that. It’s just it’s about sequencing and being deliberate about decision making. Yes. Not about flipping everything on its head and saying, “oh, we have to unlearn everything we’ve done for 40 years.” Freddy (21:35): Right. And it’s not just retrofitting something that’s been around. It’s thinking about it from the beginning. Sina (21:40): From the beginning. Yes, that’s right. You can make changes to things that exist now, but we all know how that goes. Right. When you’re changing something that’s already in play, it’s more expensive. It’s more rigid. You have more constraints. We all know how that goes. Right. It’s like asking a family to, “okay, can you move out of this house you’ve been living in for 10 years? We’ve gotta tack on a couple of extra rooms.” It’s like, you can do that. Some people do. It’s nothing compared to, “Hey architect, do you mind putting a few more squiggles on that blueprint over there?” And it costs you virtually nothing at the beginning, ’cause it’s a design phase. Freddy (22:09): Storyland Studios Ad: How do you tell a story? When people listen with more than their ears, stories change lives. They make us remember. But only when they’re felt and not just heard. Storyland studios builds the impossible. We turn big ideas into reality. We tell stories in three dimensions to stir the senses. So you can walk into places you’ve only seen in your dreams, in real life and real time. Storylands, artists, architects, and artisans, take stories out of the imagination and build tangible dreams that leave lasting impressions and memories that endure for years. What’s your story? Storyland Studios is themed entertainment, destination design, production, and fabrication. Connect with the team at Storyland Studios to get started building your impossible dream today. Visit StorylandStudios.com or call now (800) 218-1932 that’s 800 2 1 8 1 9 3 2. Storyland Studios. Your big idea’s best ally. Freddy (23:23): Well, where do you think we are in that process? So you you’ve said they haven’t made a great attraction for me yet. And I know that they’re doing their best, especially with the mobility folks. but is there… Where do you think we are in that process? How far do we need to go before it starts to feel like, wow, this is the right way we need to be working. Sina (23:51): I think we’re nascent. I think, I think we’re early in the process. There’s a lot of opportunities and you can look at this and say, well, that’s depressing. You know, it’s just a lot of road to hoe, but the other, the other way to go around that is to say the opportunities are immense. And so that means that there’s a ton of low hanging fruit bef before we even, you know, try to achieve some of the really complex, hard stuff. A lot of folks, when we talk about inclusive design and accessibility, they assume everything is like super difficult. Super difficult. And sometimes it’s, Hey, can you move that sign one inch above, you know, or below so that a seated position, you know, like a wheelchair user can see it better. Hey, the use of all caps as a designer, you know, we get it right. It’s minimalist, it’s less lines, but it destroys word shapes. So all those kids with dyslexia, dysgraphia, you’re telling them that, that reading thing that is bugging them every single day at school that just followed them to your theme park. That’s terrible. Right? That’s the last thing we want them to be thinking about when they’re enjoying their favorite character or favorite, you know, thematic experience. So what we need to be doing is the baby steps, the low hanging fruit, and then working on those, you know, medium to hard problems. When we’re doing it from the beginning. But there’s, you know, I don’t wanna make it sound negative, there’s so much to be done. And so we just need to start doing it, whether it’s sea level folks, whether it’s people on the ground, just designing a ride for the fun of it, make sure as many humans as possible can experience that fun. Freddy (25:20): <Laugh> That’s great. That’s fantastic. Let’s talk real quick about the selfishness factor. So, okay. So for a selfish reasons. There’s some good selfish. So I, I just turned 50. You mentioned that 55 people, 55 years or older… Sina (25:36): No, 35 or older. Freddy (25:37): Oh, is it 35 in order? Sina (25:38): …have a 50% chance of experiencing a disability Freddy (25:40): Disability. Right? My buddy at Triumph Foundation who deals with people who have been in catastrophic accidents and paralysis, he says, “this is the club nobody wants to join but once you’re in it, your family” because you all can look around and say, “Hey, I’ve got I’ve, I’m experiencing something like this.” So I’m, I’m 50. My eyesight is going when I go into a hotel and they’ve got three shampoo bottles, identical bottles. They don’t even change the colors anymore. They used to change the colors or they flip the colors… Sina (26:13): And maybe it’s a morning. Maybe you don’t have your contacts or your lens your glasses on. Freddy (26:16): I’ve been conditioning my armpits for years and not <laugh>. Sina (26:21): Exactly! Freddy (26:22): But, you mentioned it for selfish reasons, we need to be thinking about ourselves when we’re, when we no longer have the use of our – we don’t walk well, but we wanna go to the theme park with our family. Sina (26:33): That’s right. And also it’s, it’s not only like our future selves, which is, you know, we all get older and as we get older, we acquire more differences of ability. Right. It’s also babies growing up with more disabilities. And the real reason for that, I mean, it’s, you know, kind of blunt to say, but it’s true. Babies, aren’t dying as much. And so, as a consequence, they’re surviving various illnesses and such as a kid. But what that means is that they may be growing up with one or more disabilities. So this is the tapestry of humanity. And we don’t, we don’t have to guess at this, we can look at Japan, we can look at Iran. We can look at places with older populations and, and see how that evolves. Like we know we have evidence for this. And so then the question becomes, hold on, what are we doing about this? Because these numbers are only getting bigger. And our consideration of these issues does not seem to be growing at the same rate. And there is a problem there. Freddy (27:22): Wow. Well, I am thrilled with this conversation. It has been quite a, a conversation and I am so pleased to meet you. You’ve really in many ways, opened up my eyes to things that I really – oftentimes I hear the inclusivity thing and I think of the burden. It doesn’t need to be that way. We need to think that way all the way from the beginning. At the beginning of storytelling, who’s your audience, it’s everybody, Sina (27:48): I’ll leave you with this. The innovation that has come out of this kind of work is incredible. You have text-to-speech, speech-to-text, optical character recognition, the swipe keyboard, voice assistance, and the QUERTY keyboard, just to name a few, all because those problems were solved for persons with disabilities, needing access to whatever, the printed word or digital interfaces, et cetera. So it’s not just like a thing that we quote unquote have to do. It’s a thing we need to be doing. Yes. If we wanna experience more innovation in the world and solve some of these problems that we all need to be addressing. Freddy (28:23): Well, I am just thrilled Sina. It’s great to have you on the show. I really appreciate it. Can’t wait. I hope you can come back and we’ll talk about the the best attraction you’ve ever been on because it was made for you. Sina (28:35): Here’s to that. Freddy (28:36): <Laugh>. Thank you. Sina (28:37): Thank you. Freddy (28:40): So, Mel, at the end of the interview, after I stopped recording, this is so funny, I asked Sina what his favorite inclusive attraction is. And he answered back with a challenge saying we haven’t built it yet. <Laugh> because he’s blind. He cannot see what we’re putting out there. And so he’s asking the world, “Hey, create an attraction that includes me from the beginning.” And I just love that challenge. So how can we be better at including everybody’s needs in every experience that we create? Mel (29:16): Well, boy, you know, obviously that’s a big question, right? And I think it just still starts with that idea of, of empathy. I mean, again, I can’t think about doing a new attraction without thinking about my son and taking, you know, it through with, you know, my son and that’s just easy for any parent, any dad. But again, there’s something about I think the process of education of awareness and insight again, that can bring us that place of just thinking through that lens of those that just are different you know, in terms of abilities and perspective and backgrounds from ourselves. And so I think it just goes down to that simple golden rule and, you know, trying to live that the best you can. Freddy (30:08): Oh man. That’s so true. Well the challenges ahead of us, I mean, in this project that we’re working on, we really do want to create a, a place that’s really well thought out and seen as been a huge part in helping us think that through. And we just appreciate him so much. And I’m so glad we got him on the interview because I think the story is worth telling for everybody in our industry, take to heart folks. You really, you really can do more. Well, Mel, the shadows are getting longer out here in the jungle. What do you say? We turn this clunker around and head for home. Mel (30:42): Yes. <laugh> it’s been a long day. Freddy (30:44): <Laugh> Well, until next time, Thanks, Mel. Freddy (30:53): The Themed Attraction podcast is hosted by Freddy Martin and Mel McGowan. We want you to know that we do not take your listening for granted. It means so much to us that you listen to this show, but would you mind helping us just a little bit further by leaving a positive review on apple podcasts or on Spotify. That would really help others find the show. And we love creating community like that, you know? Freddy (31:15): We want to thank our special guest, Sina Bahram. You can connect with him on LinkedIn and get his help creating thoughtful, inclusive design on your next project. Through his company, Prime Access Consulting. Check out their website pac.bz. That’s pac.bz. Freddy (31:36): Get access to more stories and interviews at themedattraction.com. Start your own profile, discuss the latest advancements and interact with your fellow theme park designers around the world. Follow the action on Instagram and Twitter @themedattraction and join our active discussion group on LinkedIn connect with Mel by email, via Mel@StorylandStudios.com or follow him on Twitter at Mel McGowan and Instagram @visioneer. You can find me at freddymartin.net and follow my adventures @SkipperFreddy on Instagram and Twitter. Freddy (32:11): Our theme music was composed by Rob Watson. Other music provided by The Lost Dogs. This episode was designed and produced by the one and only Dr. Barry Hill. Barry is the author of Imagineering an American Dreamscape; the Genesis, Evolution and Redemption of the Regional Theme Park. This book tells the epic stories of regional theme parks and the strong-willed visionaries behind them. Some of the stories you may have heard. Most, you probably haven’t and it’s a fascinating tale to tell. It’s available to purchase on Amazon, Barnes and Nobel or direct from the publisher at rivershorecreative.com. You know, Mel, Barry told me he was once stranded on the Savannah and was forced to eat zebra to survive. Well, I was shocked. I find it impossible to serve zebra. You know, light meat, dark meat, light meat, dark meat, light meat, dark meat. Thanks for listening folks. Speaker 7 (33:07): Light meat, dark meat, light meat, dark meat, light meat, dark meat.

Our guest is Vince Kadlubek, founder and former CEO of Meow Wolf. Meow Wolf was started by Vince and several friends as a collective of artists who wanted to create art installations people could not only view, but walk into. And now it’s grown into a company of experiential arts who have built three of the most mind-bending location-based attractions in the world. Connect with Vince Kadlubek on LinkedIn and follow Meow Wolf on Instagram, Twitter & YouTube. Show hosts: Mel McGowan & Freddy Martin Show design & production: Barry R. Hill Theme music composed by Rob Watson, closing music by the Lost Dogs. Give us a shoutout on iTunes; we love the attention, and browse www.themedattraction.com for even more on the attractions industry. Thanks for listening!