The Trunk Show with RW Elephant

In this episode, host Allison Howell speaks with two rental entrepreneurs, Anna Samodarov of Memorable Events Rentals and Erica Trombetti of La Affitto, about navigating the logistical and financial hurdles of the event industry. Anna discusses managing the extreme seasonality of the Sacramento and Bay Area markets through flexible staffing and proactive booking. Erica shares her transition from wedding planning to rentals, emphasizing the importance of quality control, damage policies, and the "buy-to-rent" trap that many growing businesses face.What’s in this episode:Navigating Seasonal CashflowFlexible Staffing Models for Scheduling & HiringThe "Utilization" Test for InventoryLeveraging Industry RelationshipsImplementing Damage WaiversStrategic Saying Yes to New InventoryQuotes:"During the slow season [...], let's really make more appointment time slots available and focus on making those bookings." — Anna Samodarov"If these pieces aren't paying their rent, they don't get to stay here on the shelf." — Allison Howell“...that's how business works, it's always a risk, you have to make these decisions and be okay with whatever happens.” — Anna Samodarov“One inquiry does not equal cash in the bank, right? Even if someone asks about it, that doesn't mean they were actually going to book it.” — Allison Howell"You will not grow, you will burn out. You will hate what you're doing if you don't hire help, if you don't learn how to delegate." — Anna Samodarov"If you insist on being there with them, then you become the bottleneck for your growth." — Allison Howell"We didn't want to have what big box companies had. We wanted to be something completely different. So that was our focus." — Erica Trombetti"Being a smaller rental company, every cup counts, every plate counts." — Erica Trombetti“I also was a very ‘yes, yes, yes,’ and then I went into ‘no, no, no,’ and you feel bad for saying ‘no, no, no,’ then you're like, ‘oh no. No one's gonna wanna use you. You should go back to saying yes, yes, yes.” So I think that is just the cycle. Everyone kind of goes up and down in business and trying to feel what works best. — Erica Trombetti"What was happening was we were using all of our profits to buy all of our inventory. And we got to the point where like, okay, we just can't anymore." — Erica TrombettiThe tricky part about it is if you just keep buying, then the things you currently own aren't going to rent, right? The hope is if you say no, that they actually rent something that you do own. But the risk is if they say no that they get what they want somewhere else. — Allison HowellRESOURCES:The RW Elephant mailing list features more event industry resources and happenings—including announcements about new Trunk Show episodes! Learn what to do with an underperforming piece in your collection with RW’s Utilization & Liquidation WorksheetLearn what Erica learned at our conference by grabbing your spot for Lend & Gather Online! Join the Lend & Gather mailing list to be the first to hear about our next conference for boutique event rental business owners. THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSOR:RW Elephant: Mighty inventory management software designed to help you conquer chaos and reclaim your creativity!Website | Instagram AND OUR GUESTS:Erica Trombetti of La AffittoWebsite | InstagramAnna Samodarov of Memorable Events RentalsWebsite | Instagram | Facebook

This episode discusses the importance of strategic growth, intentionality and operational efficiency with 2 different rental companies. First is Jenna Mackanich and Jillian Mackey, owners of Lilac and Lace Co. located just outside Philadelphia, PA. The second is with Courtney Inghram, founder of The Collection by Courtney Inghram which services Virginia and North Carolina.What’s in this episode: -Strategically Staying Small-Creating Operational Efficiencies-Defining Success Through Intentionality-The Power of Sisterly Partnership-Tricks for Managing Tabletop RentalsQuotations: "I think that that has become ingrained in a lot of us, the more options you offer people, that's positive... I have found that the less options I offer, but that are more geared towards a specific kind of client that has allowed me to find success in this small niche." — Courtney Inghram"We were hungry because this was our first couple years in business. So we just took on everything... but we were creating a lifestyle that really wasn't sustainable for our home life." — Jillian Mackey"I think we as women just want to make sure that we're talking to people in the right way and we don't want to offend anyone. You kind of almost shoot yourself in the foot a little bit... when you don't send those emails and make those calls and just put yourself out there." — Courtney Inghram"So we've really streamlined our processes... and that's really, really helped us this year to the point where, I don't know if it's okay to say this but we owe way too much in taxes now because we're too efficient." — Jenna Mackanich“The more instruction you can give people, the better. Because the person who rented it is almost certainly not the person who’s going to be packing it.” — Allison Howell"It's very fulfilling to see the finished product. This is creating memories. People are sitting around a table together, having this once in a lifetime moment. That makes me feel good and like what we're doing is important and it's not just all frivolous." — Courtney Inghram“Every year I feel like there’s a new challenge we have to overcome, but when you figure it out, it’s a really good feeling.” — Jenna Mackanich“If you’re the type of person who needs help right now, send an email to a handful of people, because it might be that they can’t get back to you today but they can get back to you in the future. It’s not personal sometimes when they don’t respond.” — Allison Howell“We have a very small space for storage, which has caused me to be very intentional both about the pieces that I buy and make an investment in and…sell off the pieces that aren’t doing their job anymore.” — Courtney InghramResources: Never overbook or doublebook any in your rental inventory ever again with RW Elephant. Organize your warehouse with:Item Labels for your Event Rental Warehouse5S Event Rental Warehouse GuidePlatescrape Dishwashing Kit for onsite scullery

Ashton Pollock is the founder of Bespoke Decor — a design-forward event rental company based in Vancouver, BC. What started 12 years ago with a few vintage finds has grown into one of Vancouver’s leading rental companies. Today, Bespoke is powered by a tight-knit, woman-led team that cares deeply about good design, great service, and making the rental process feel easy.What’s in this episode: Best practices for creating cultureHandling conflict within your teamBeing self-aware as a leaderTrusting your company to your peopleSetting yourself apart with brandingQuotations:“People know what they're doing here. They're good at what they do because the environment has been set up to learn and to grow and to do these things and to give freedom to make decisions.” - Ashton Pollock“If you were to strip everything back, you just have to simply respect and be kind to the people that you are with, even in moments of frustration, and trusting their attention, trusting who they are as a person, and communicating as frequently as possible.” - Ashton Pollock“I just don't understand when people say, oh, it's not personal. Like, **** that, it's personal. Of course it's personal. It is my entire livelihood.” - Ashton Pollock“I have a rule. I'm not allowed in the building if I'm a ‘Stressy Bessy.’ I have to check myself. If I'm a ‘Stressy Bessy,’ I work from home. Because I'll project. I know I will. And that's not what I want.” - Ashton Pollock“It takes a lot of, “Nope, you know what? I'm not going to say anything right now. I'm going to shower. I'm going to reset. I'm going to have a sleep, and then tomorrow I'm going to know what to do." But it can be tempting to be like, X, Y, and Z has happened. We're going to talk about this right now, but that's never the best case.” - Ashton Pollock“So I am a lover of change, baby. I really like to see things change. So we have rebranded every two years pretty loyally.” - Ashton Pollock“Everything has been a pain in my *** at some point. Team included, inventory, trucks, whatever it is. But at the end of the day, like I've met some of the people in my life that will be there until I'm a little old lady carrying around a chair. And that is just a gift in itself.” - Ashton Pollock“I think that's attractive to your ideal client. They recognize that they are going to get that quality in the work that you're doing. You're being very intentional, even with the copy that you're writing. And they see that intentionality in your design. They see that intentionality in the color palettes you put together. They see that in all of those little aspects of what you do. And they can see that this is going to translate into my event. And that really speaks to them.” - Ashton PollockRESOURCES:The RW Elephant mailing list features more event industry resources and happenings—including announcements about new Trunk Show episodes! THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSOR:RW Elephant: Mighty inventory management software designed to help you conquer chaos and reclaim your creativity!Website | Instagram AND OUR GUEST:Ashton Pollock of Bespoke DecorWebsite | Instagram | Pinterest | TikTok

Holly and Charlie are owner/operators of Locate to Create. Their mission is to “Locate” items to “Create” bespoke events and experiences. They use props, furniture and styling to tell people’s stories with an underlying theme of sustainability. Their diverse portfolio features an eclectic array of items and furniture pieces curated to cater to various personalities and styles. Partners Holly and Charlie couldn’t be more different but that’s what makes them work so well. Charlie loves logistics and operational efficiency while Holly is the creative mind and driving force that clients can’t get enough of. Their combined strengths and work ethic earned them the national award for Venue Stylist of the Year in 2024. They operate just outside of London, England.What’s in this episode:How Holly got started right out of Uni with the help of mentorsCharlie joins the business and roles are definedUsing Instagram and styled shoots to increase social media reachWinning Venue Stylist of the Year Award and leveraging it for growthSourcing inspiration and finding creative options for storageCan you believe this is our job?Quotations:“How can we take that and display it creatively? Or come up with a prop that is useful for that, but also looks great. It creates a photo opportunity and then all the guests are taking pictures. That is what couples love. Practical and pretty I always say, and that's why we really try and focus on that as a company.” – Holly “One of the benefits and beauties of working with your partner, business partner, romantic partner. She's at one end of the desk. I'm at the other one. It's not a particularly difficult task for me to say, “Oh, Holly, I think she might want styling.” – Charlie“We know now that actually seeing couples on our Instagram page, for example, real couples is fantastic, but actually styled shoot couples like models doesn't work as well. People just want to really see our products. So we don't post that much of our couples as much as we love them. But it's the products that we're trying to sell and the service.” – Holly“Sometimes when we get an award or we achieve something in our business, we say, okay, check that off onto the next thing. But it can be so valuable for us to say, okay, I got this thing, or I achieved this thing or I have this thing in front of me, how can I squeeze more out of it so that I can get all of the benefit or value out of this thing that I already have before I move on to the next marketing opportunity or before I move on to the next thing or before I invest in the next phase, right?”– Allison Howell“We never want to be the sort of company where we're doing thousands of events every year. So it's very important to us to identify very strategic venues to try and penetrate into a high proportion of their yearly total events. And as you say, having that leverage to get in there and actually capture those for us, that's a far more valuable way of doing business and expanding business.” – CharlieResources:The Lend & Gather ConferenceThe RW Elephant mailing list features more event industry resources and happenings—including announcements about new Trunk Show episodes!Thank you to our sponsor:RW Elephant: Mighty inventory management software designed to help you conquer chaos and reclaim your creativity!Website | Instagram And our guests:Holly and Charlie of Locate to CreateFacebook | Instagram | Pinterest | TikTok

Over the last 18 years, Mandy Majerik has turned her mom and pop flower shop into a key player for floral production in the southeast. She also founded and operates PropHouse which offers boutique prop rental to her clientele. Mandy has both her AIFD and PFCI certifications. She has a custom build shop, a custom paint shop and is opening a custom print shop. She’s got the heart, the hustle, the history and the headspace to successfully operate her growing businesses of 30 employees.What’s in this episode:What Mandy does after taking over her family’s flower shopBreaking into the rental market with PropHouse How she manages multiple businesses and dozens of employees The logic behind her collection and approach to purchasingThe importance of safety nets and icebreakers when hiring Milestones and giving back!Quotations:“I think when I made the decision that I would raise the minimum for floral and really push towards the props. I wanted to be a leader in that market in our area. Being able to do the whole event design and incorporate or push new ideas on people. That was the avenue that I saw as an opportunity because I was really doing it anyway.” – Mandy Majerik“I was very driven to make it something that was distinct and different. And I think I've just been riding the wave going in that direction.” – Mandy Majerik“There's some things that I buy just because I personally think this will do well in the market. Or someone doesn't have it to offer where we are. And so that gives us a leg up sometimes of something different that we have that can be that little pivot point tipping the scale to rent from us versus someone else.” – Mandy Majerik“I think you have to be organized and have a plan. I think you have to be a person who sets goals. Because if you don't set them, you're not going to be able to reach them. ” – Mandy Majerik“Bringing me joy is being able to give back to the people who I think dedicate themselves so much to the business, the crazy business that we're in. ” – Mandy MajerikResources:The Lend & Gather ConferenceThe RW Elephant mailing list features more event industry resources and happenings—including announcements about new Trunk Show episodes!Thank you to our sponsor:RW Elephant: Mighty inventory management software designed to help you conquer chaos and reclaim your creativity!Website | Instagram And our guest:Mandy Majerik of HotHouse Design Studio + PropHouse Rentals and StylingHotHouse | Facebook | InstagramPropHouse | Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest

Brazil native Pablo Oliveira founded Nüage Designs in 2004. Based in Miami, the company has become a leader in couture linen and furniture rentals for events, renowned for its quality and service. Oliveira's innovative, hands-on approach and commitment to sustainability and community drive Nüage's success and reputation globally.What’s in this episode:How Pablo got started in the industryDiscovering a niche and growing organicallyExpanding the sales team to different locationsFinding the right talent and empowering themThe freedom in learning to let goQuotes:“I just took it day by day and just grabbed every opportunity that was presented to me and met every single designer that referred me to another one. It was just like one thing leading to the other. And before I knew it we weren't just doing business here in Miami, we started shipping.” – Pablo Oliveira“I think that referrals have been the best way for us to find the right talent, especially because I think that someone that is already working with us, they want to have the best people joining the company.” – Pablo Oliveira“I think the magic really happens when other people believe in your passion and become as passionate as you are for the business and they take ownership in everything that they do and every day that they come to work.” – Pablo Oliveira“You have to start and risk failing and then after you've worked so hard, you have to let go in order for it to grow. I don't know, which is harder, but that part takes a lot of courage too.” – Allison Howell“When I realized the potential that I had with placing salespeople across the country, that obviously allowed us to grow exponentially compared to just doing business locally.” – Pablo Oliveira“I am freaking essential. Or we are freaking essential because, what is life if we don't make memories, right?” – Pablo OliveiraResources:The Lend & Gather ConferenceThe RW Elephant mailing list features more event industry resources and happenings—including announcements about new Trunk Show episodes!Thank you to our sponsor:RW Elephant: Mighty inventory management software designed to help you conquer chaos and reclaim your creativity!Website | Instagram And our guest:Pablo Oliviera of Nüage DesignsNüage Designs | Instagram | Pinterest

Before starting her event rental business, Sherine Iskandar was a marketing professional. Now, with years of experience and a personal rebrand under her belt, she’s the perfect pro to talk to about the nuts and bolts of branding and marketing an event rental business.What’s in this episode:Building a new brand in a new marketHow Sherine plans her purchases around pieces that fit and further her brandThe strategy behind rebranding Modern Vintage Rentals as Lily & CaneLessons learned commissioning custom piecesThe endless battle for work-life balanceQuotes:“A brand embodies so much more than just the look and feel. The client experience is a huge thing.” - Sherine Iskander“Some people give up after attending once or twice at one of these networking groups and then they say, ‘ph, that doesn’t work for me.’ But what I’ve found is that you really have to stick with it for six to nine months before anybody with any kind of great reputation will give you a chance because if they recommend you, then their reputation is on the line.” - Allison Howell“This was important for me to explain to myself or to keep repeating to myself: ‘I can’t be all things to all people.’” -Sherine Iskandar “I decided I’m not going to wait for perfection to start promoting a product.” -Sherine Iskandar“My name was doing a disservice to the brand, and I had to change it.” - Sherine Iskandar “It was a big goal when I quit the corporate world. My goal was to be a healthier person – mind and body. And I am a healthier person now because I’ve allowed myself the balance of work and life.” - Sherine IskandarResources:SITU Creative AgencyThe Lend & Gather ConferenceThe RW Elephant mailing list features more event industry resources and happenings—including announcements about new Trunk Show episodes!Thank you to our sponsor:RW Elephant: Mighty inventory management software designed to help you conquer chaos and reclaim your creativity!Website | Instagram And our guest:Sherine Iskandar of Lily & CaneWebsite | Instagram

Purchasing an existing business and making it your own comes with its own set of challenges. Jacqueline Johannesson is here to walk us through the process. After buying Collected & Co. from a close friend, she and her husband have taken the business to new heights...and learned plenty along the way!What’s in this episode:A look at buying a business from a friendHow Jacqueline and her husband made Collected & Co. their ownHow to build on someone else’s collection Growing your core services, like, adding event planning to the mixHow to handle client disappointment, both before and after it happensQuotes:“What can we do to really stay ahead of the market and just push Minneapolis to be something that you just don't see all the time?” - Jacqueline Johannesson“Would that be easy? Yes. But we’re never about the easy.” - Jacqueline Johannesson“It sounds like you don't want to just fulfill the vision; you want to cast the vision.“ - Allison Howell“So for our lounge furniture, we try to, on the third time it's going out, it's got to make some sort of return, whether it's three dollars, it has to bring something in. We know that there are some pieces, like our dining chairs, that's going to take more rentals to bring that back in. We want our pieces to, you know, hopefully last a couple to three seasons before we have to retire something out.” -Jacqueline Johannesson“We've worked really hard to build great relationships with the other vendor partners in the city to be trusted, to say, ‘they're the people who are willing to take a little bit of a risk sometimes.’” -Jacqueline Johannesson“We learn something new every single day, every single event. There's always something that we are learning, whether it's from a client, an experience, an event professional who knows more than us because we are not naive to say we don't know half of it. Like, we're always learning and growing, which is what you need to do in order to continue to grow and have a successful business.” Jacqueline Johannesson“When you start out, you're thinking of all the beautiful things you're going to create, and that's sort of the primary stuff of your vision and your dreams. But, a big chunk of what you do is actually move furniture around.” -Allison Howell“There's always room for growth. There's always room for growth in your business. There's room for growth personally, always. Like we always need to strive to be better the next day. We can always wake up and do better.” -Jacqueline JohannessonResources:The Lend & Gather ConferenceThe RW Elephant mailing list features more event industry resources and happenings—including announcements about new Trunk Show episodes!Thank you to our sponsor:RW Elephant: Mighty inventory management software designed to help you conquer chaos and reclaim your creativity!Website | Instagram And our guest:Jacqueline Johannesson of Collected & Co.Website | Instagram

Nearly a decade after Corrin Arasa started NYC’s Patina Rentals, we hear how she built a business that has not only lasted but flourished. Enjoy an inside look into one of the country’s most talked-about event rental businesses.What’s in this episode:How to build a work culture that empowers your staff long-termPatina’s famous roller skating parties, and how those startedThe rent-ready guidelines Patina uses for their vintage furniturePricing your work in a way that builds self-respect and client acclaimSelecting and organizing a warehouse in the Big AppleGetting creative with business marketing Quotes:“I had this house filled with cool vintage things, and I said - ‘Oh, I can rent! I can use those chairs!’” - Corrin Arasa“Everything that we have today is built up on those relationships we made early on.” - Corrin Arasa“What I realized was that those were going to be the early adopters… corporate. Although there are so many interesting things that you can do experientially and activation-wise, the wedding market was ready to adopt what we were doing and was really excited about it.” - Corrin Arasa“It is a very lonely thing being an entrepreneur sometimes, and so it’s nice to have a community of people to bounce your ideas around with.” - Corrin Arasa “I built a business plan and a business model and a mantra and values... and everything that was really based on scaling and having work-life balance and bringing other people in.” - Corrin Arasa“While we eventually got to where I wanted to be, and we’re still going, there were so many starts and stops along the way.” - Corrin Arasa“It was really intentional letting go to grow and realizing my skill set and my time is going to be far, far better spent on mentoring other people and working on the business rather than doing it myself. Because they’re going to come with new ideas. They might not have done it exactly the same way that I do it-- they might do it better. They might come up with a new way to do it. And there are so many smart and talented people out there who can bring so much to the table. Maybe if it doesn’t go off exactly well, we’ll lose a client but it’s not about that. It’s really about building bigger so that we can all be better and learn and experience these things and improve the company overall.” -Corrin Arasa“I was pricing for me and now we’re pricing to help the client understand their budgets a little better.” -Corrin Arasa“They needed content, and we needed content. And so we kind of gave them a cocktail and blasted the music, and sent them around the warehouse, and then told them to come back and create this design in an hour.” - Corrin ArasaResources:The E Myth by Michael E. GerberProfit First by Mike MichalowiczThe Lend & Gather ConferenceThe RW Elephant mailing list features more event industry resources and happenings—including announcements about new Trunk Show episodes!Thank you to our sponsor:RW Elephant: Mighty inventory management software designed to help you conquer chaos and reclaim your creativity!Website | Instagram And our guest:Corrin Arasa of Patina RentalsWebsite | Instagram

Martha Sanabanda dives into how she started her business, Martha My Dear Rentals, as a hobby before realizing it was everything she wanted in a full-time job. You’ll hear how she dealt with internal and external skepticism about becoming an entrepreneur and how she’s found her place in the industry along the way. What’s in this episode: Martha’s path from social work to event rentals. Turning a hobby into a business. Protecting your business dream from the skepticism of others. Having family members as co-workers. How to make space for creative work. Policies and processes which have fueled business growth. Quotes: “Well, I actually find that most of the clients that come to us, they appreciate that our farm tables are made with real wood. [...] It just has so much character to it. And so our target bride loves that.” —Martha Sanabanda “Well, and it also gives you a point of view, right. This is not just any old table. It's a table created here from the point of view of this place. It's unique in that way, too. I think it's really a beautiful way to add to your collection to be hyper local.” —Allison Howell “We don't have a business background. We've never done this before...It was an idea I just couldn't stop thinking about.” —Martha Sanabanda “Whenever I felt like I wanted to give up, I just told myself: ‘This is the course.This is how it is when you start a business.’” —Martha Sanabanda “So in the beginning, it was really tough for me to not be at every delivery and every pick up. And even though physically I couldn't because I was pregnant, I think I realized that he can handle that. And it allowed me time to kind of dream a little bit about our business. And it gave me energy to do that.” —Martha Sanabanda “We used to deliver two chairs all over town for an event. We definitely put in place some rental minimums. And that was a bit scary at first. We thought we would lose business. But if anything, I think it's helped us gain more business.” —Martha Sanabanda For full show notes and resources, head to https://rwelephant.com/podcast/episode-6-martha-my-dear-rentals

Annette Stepanian is a lawyer and the founder of Your Legal BFF. She helps creative entrepreneurs get the legal back-end of their businesses in order while making the process as fun and simple as possible. For example, did you know that every business is like a burrito? You’ll get to hear more about her burrito analogy plus common legal conflicts that arise in the wedding and events industry. What’s in this episode: Leaving a career as a lawyer to start a jewelry business The “burrito” checklist for taking care of “the legal stuff” in a business Your Legal BFF offers legal templates and resources for small business owners and entrepreneurs Common legal issues in the wedding and events industry The problems with using any old legal contract template from the internet How to communicate expectations and contractual terms with clients How to part ways with a client when it’s not working out Quotes: “I felt like I could speak creative but I could also speak legal and so I thought it was a really nice way to marry the two skillsets.” - Annette Stepanian “Contracts are evolving documents. It’s not a set-it-and-forget-it type of thing. You know, you don't just do it once and then never touch it again for the next like 10 years. I do recommend that people revisit them at least once a year to make sure that it reflects their current policies and procedures.” - Annette Stepanian “I think you need to walk into every client relationship assuming that nobody is going to read your contract because most people aren't going to, unfortunately.” --Annette Stepanian “If you’re relying solely on your contract to communicate your policies, your procedures… It is a vehicle to communicate them but it shouldn’t be your sole vehicle.” - Annette Stepanian “We’re all wronged in a lot of different ways. But sometimes you just have to look the other way because the cost of proving yourself right is taking your energy away from things that are more constructive.” - Annette Stepanian For full show notes and resources, head to https://rwelephant.com/podcast/episode-4-annette-stepanian

Morgan Montgomery and Perkins Morgan tell the story of founding Paisley & Jade Rentals in Richmond, Virgina. You’ll hear about the surprise encounters and rookie mistakes they made which paved the way for their eventual leadership in the event rental industry. What’s in this episode: How Morgan and Perkins got started—through the catering business. Early missteps in vetting professional partners. Rules for expanding a rental collection. The relationship between personal growth and business growth. Traits that have contributed to the Paisley & Jade team’s success. Moments of celebration in Morgan and Perkins’ rental adventure. Quotes: “She pulled together an incredible business plan as if to reassure me before I made that leap.” - Perkins Morgan “We were smart enough to be successful but dumb enough to not really know what was coming at us.” - Morgan Montgomery “[Smaller rental companies buy] inventory because it's cheap, but not because it fits a particular style or aesthetic that they're grooming into a collection. And we suffered that same mistake.” - Morgan Montgomery "I think it's interesting when an outsider's point of view recommends something that you never thought of, but instantly clicks.” - Perkins Morgan “As our business evolved we evolved who we were working with and who was the best fit as we continued to learn and grow.” - Morgan Montgomery “Why it's worked is definitely a yin and yang dynamic...we are super, super different. But have a lot of respect for why we're different.” - Perkins Morgan “You have to make the right choices for you and for your team...and sometimes that requires being uncomfortable, which we're not necessarily good at.” - Morgan Montgomery For full show notes and resources, head to https://rwelephant.com/podcast/episode-2-paisley-and-jade