The World's Best Email and Retention Podcast

This episode is sponsored by ⁠Klaviyo⁠. When in doubt, zoom out.Most brands have a browse abandon and a checkout abandon — and call it done. In this episode, Jordan breaks down the entire conversion funnel support ecosystem: all 9 flows, how they connect, and how many emails each one actually needs.What's covered:The difference between lifecycle and funnel support (and why it matters)All 9 flows: site abandon, category abandon, browse abandon, cart abandon, checkout abandon, back in stock, price drop, recommendations, and funnel flusherWhy back in stock and price drop are long-tail revenue machinesHow to set up flow rules so people move down the funnel — never upWhy discounts don't belong in your funnel support (and the Toms email that proves it)The minimum email count for every flow in your libraryPlus: a live breakdown of browse abandon emails from Thrifty's and Toms — what works, what doesn't, and why hiding your product behind a hero shot is costing you conversions.Referenced episodes:The Only Site Abandon Flow You'll Ever NeedThe Only Browse Abandon Flow You'll Ever NeedSite Funnels Episode 1 & 2Timestamps:00:00 – Intro & what is conversion funnel support?03:15 – The 4 core abandonment flows: site, category, browse, cart & checkout08:30 – How to set up flow rules (people move down, never up)13:19 – Beyond abandonment: back in stock, price drop & recommendations19:11 – The recommendations flow: Amazon-inspired product discovery22:00 – The funnel flusher: when and how to use it24:25 – How many emails does each flow need?26:24 – Live email breakdowns: Thrifty's & Toms34:11 – Why discounts don't belong in funnel support37:37 – Lifecycle discounting: the clean way to structure offersWork with Pilothouse: ⁠https://www.pilothouse.co/get-in-touch?utm_source=dtc&utm_medium=podcast&utm_content=e&rPodcast⁠Subscribe on YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@DTCPodcastSubscribe to DTC: ⁠https://www.directtoconsumer.co/⁠Listen to DTC Podcast: ⁠https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/dtcpodcast

If your store has hundreds — or thousands — of SKUs, your biggest problem isn't your product. It's discovery.Jordan sits down with Julia Whatley, Senior Partner Manager at Rebuy, to break down how smart personalization turns an overwhelming catalog into a guided buying experience. From search-driven add-to-carts to post-purchase subscription upgrades, Julia walks through the full on-site journey and how brands are using Rebuy to lift AOV, drive repeat purchases, and build more intelligent relationships with their customers.In this episode:Why mega-SKU brands have a discovery problem, not a product problemHow one brand hit a 32% AOV boost and 20% bottom-line revenue increaseThe full personalization stack — search, bundles, smart cart, post-purchase, and moreHow to combine Klaviyo segments with Rebuy for truly tailored on-site experiencesThe "complete the look" strategy and the psychology behind purchase behaviorWhat the winning brands of the next three years will have in common00:00 – Intro & meet Julia Whatley, Senior Partner Manager at Rebuy 03:30 – The mega-SKU problem: why large catalogs create analysis paralysis 04:49 – KM Tools case study: 32% AOV boost & 20% bottom-line revenue increase 06:17 – Walking the full on-site journey: search, bundles, smart cart & more 12:49 – Bundle Builder: how 30% of Rebuy revenue flows through this one feature 25:47 – Secret weapons: Smart Links, geo-targeting & the Rebuy rules engine 30:55 – Klaviyo + Rebuy: why the integration is a need-to-have, not a nice-to-have 34:04 – The brands that will win in the next 3 yearsWork with Pilothouse: ⁠https://www.pilothouse.co/get-in-touch?utm_source=dtc&utm_medium=podcast&utm_content=e&rPodcast⁠Subscribe on YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@DTCPodcastSubscribe to DTC: ⁠https://www.directtoconsumer.co/⁠Listen to DTC Podcast: ⁠https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/dtcpodcast

In this episode, Jordan dove into the data of 20 ecommerce brands to see what actually happens when you add email and SMS into the mix.The result:→ 3.3x higher median growth→ More revenue from repeat customers→ Stronger overall efficiency (MER, ROAS, P&L)Email and SMS don’t just drive extra revenue.They make your entire acquisition system work better.In this episode:Why retention drives disproportionate growthHow repeat revenue compounds over timeWhy email unlocks more ad spendThe metrics that actually matter (and the ones that don’t)00:00 Why Email & SMS Drive Growth02:48 The 5 Metrics That Matter04:42 3.3x Higher Growth Explained10:01 What This Means for Your BusinessWork with Pilothouse: ⁠https://www.pilothouse.co/get-in-touch?utm_source=dtc&utm_medium=podcast&utm_content=e&rPodcast⁠Subscribe on YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@DTCPodcastSubscribe to DTC: ⁠https://www.directtoconsumer.co/⁠Listen to DTC Podcast: ⁠https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/dtcpodcast

Most brands don’t have a testing problem. They have a targeting problem.In this episode, Jordan is joined by Pilothouse strategist Chris Richards to break down why “marketing to everyone” is quietly killing performance — and what to do instead.The reality: growth doesn’t come from more creative, more tests, or more spend. It comes from choosing the right customer and building your entire system around them.We get into how to actually define personas, why most brands get stuck in “tactical spinning,” and how the wrong customer at the top of funnel can break everything downstream — from ads to landing pages to email.If your performance feels inconsistent, this is likely where things are going wrong.In this episode, you’ll learn:Why targeting multiple personas at once weakens your results How to identify the most profitable customer to focus on The biggest mistake brands make when scaling “winning” ads How to align ads, landing pages, and email around one persona What metrics actually matter when validating your targeting00:00 Why most brands struggle to grow00:41 Why specificity beats broad targeting01:53 What persona strategy actually looks like03:14 Building personas from segments + behavior04:34 Why you shouldn’t target everyone at once05:33 Real example: choosing the right customer07:52 The problem with “tactical spinning”10:12 How the wrong customer breaks retention13:04 How to measure if you’re targeting right16:21 Aligning ads, landing pages, and emailWork with Pilothouse: ⁠https://www.pilothouse.co/get-in-touch?utm_source=dtc&utm_medium=podcast&utm_content=e&rPodcast⁠Subscribe on YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@DTCPodcastSubscribe to DTC: ⁠https://www.directtoconsumer.co/⁠Listen to DTC Podcast: ⁠https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/dtcpodcast

Most ecommerce brands obsess over conversion rate. But according to Dylan Ander, that’s the wrong metric to optimize.In this episode of the World's Best Email & Retention Podcast, Jordan sits down with Dylan Ander — founder of Heatmap.com and author of Billion Dollar Websites — to break down the psychology behind how people actually buy online.Dylan introduces his “Gator vs Judge” framework, a simple way to understand the two forces behind every purchase decision. The “Gator” is the fast, instinctive brain that wants to buy, while the “Judge” is the skeptical brain that introduces doubt, friction, and hesitation.If your website triggers the Judge too early, you lose the sale.If you design a Gator-friendly experience, customers move naturally toward purchase.We also dive into why some of the most common CRO advice may be outdated, including the belief that fewer clicks always lead to more conversions.In this episode, we cover:• The Gator vs Judge framework for ecommerce conversion • Why conversion rate can be a vanity metric • Why more pages visited can actually increase revenue • How to use heatmaps tied directly to revenue • Why your homepage might be your most important landing page • The difference between demographics and psychographics in ecommerce marketing • Why asking customers what they want is the fastest way to improve your site00:00 Why Email + CRO Drive the Fastest Ecommerce Revenue01:21 Meet Dylan Ander (Heatmap.com & Billion Dollar Websites)04:38 The “Choke Point” Framework for Website Conversion07:04 Why More Pages Visited Can Increase Revenue11:17 Using Revenue-Based Heatmaps to Improve CRO17:51 The Psychology of Headlines, Subject Lines, and Conversion22:26 The Gator vs Judge Framework for Ecommerce28:26 Why Your Homepage Might Be Your Best Landing PageWork with Pilothouse: ⁠https://www.pilothouse.co/get-in-touch?utm_source=dtc&utm_medium=podcast&utm_content=e&rPodcast⁠Subscribe on YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@DTCPodcastSubscribe to DTC: ⁠https://www.directtoconsumer.co/⁠Listen to DTC Podcast: ⁠https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/dtcpodcast

In this Segmentation Super Episode, Jordan Gordon breaks down the exact segmentation frameworks the Pilothouse retention team uses to drive more revenue from the customers you already have. If your Klaviyo account feels messy, underperforming, or overly broad, this is your reset.You’ll learn why bad segmentation quietly kills inbox placement, how to structure high-signal engagement windows, and the practical segment models you can build today to improve campaign performance. From lifecycle and recency to whales, cohorts, and discount behavior, this episode is packed with actionable systems you can implement immediately.Whether you're new to segmentation or looking to level up an already sophisticated program, this walkthrough gives you the playbook to send smarter and earn more from email and SMS.00:00 Introduction00:29 The #1 Klaviyo killer: bad segmentation03:18 Inboxing, engagement, and list hygiene fundamentals09:08 Core segmentation factors (recency, lifecycle, engagement, product, whales)24:12 Simple segmentation models you can build today38:17 SMS segmentation math and optimizationWork with Pilothouse: ⁠https://www.pilothouse.co/get-in-touch?utm_source=dtc&utm_medium=podcast&utm_content=e&rPodcast⁠Subscribe on YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@DTCPodcastSubscribe to DTC: ⁠https://www.directtoconsumer.co/⁠Listen to DTC Podcast: ⁠https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/dtcpodcast

In Part 2 of this deep dive, Jordan breaks down how to attribute your post-click ecosystem without relying solely on platform reporting. From estimating CRO uplift to sizing Rebuy’s true contribution and pressure-testing retention performance, this episode walks through the math and the mindset operators need to understand where low-cost revenue is really coming from.In this episode:How to estimate CRO revenue impact using direct linear conversion rateTwo practical ways to measure Rebuy performanceWhy MER comparisons often mislead operatorsThe retention metrics that matter more than repeat rateHow to size each growth lever against total Shopify revenue00:00 — Why Post-Click Revenue Matters00:29 — Measuring Rebuy’s True Impact06:42 — How to Calculate CRO Revenue Uplift13:25 — Comparing Channel Revenue Rates14:49 — The Retention Metrics That Actually Matter30:22 — Final Framework and Key TakeawaysWork with Pilothouse: ⁠https://www.pilothouse.co/get-in-touch?utm_source=dtc&utm_medium=podcast&utm_content=e&rPodcast⁠Subscribe on YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@DTCPodcastSubscribe to DTC: ⁠https://www.directtoconsumer.co/⁠Listen to DTC Podcast: ⁠https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/dtcpodcast

Attribution doesn’t stop at ads.In this episode, we walk through how to measure the full post-click ecosystem (from email and SMS to CRO and retention) and how these channels work together to drive low-cost revenue.Jordan shares a practical model for evaluating channel impact beyond standard multi-touch attribution, why some of your most important revenue drivers get under-credited, and how to identify opportunities to improve marketing efficiency without spending more.If you’re trying to understand where your real growth is coming from, this is a foundational episode.#ecommerce #emailmarketing #retentionmarketing #attribution #digitalmarketing #dtc #pilothouse #cro #smsmarketing #shopifymarketing00:00 — Introduction00:50 — Defining the post-click ecosystem and how to think about it02:03 — What rising ad costs can reveal about your retention strategy08:22 — How multi-touch attribution fits into the bigger measurement picture19:03 — The 14-metric framework for evaluating your full ecosystemWork with Pilothouse: ⁠https://www.pilothouse.co/get-in-touch?utm_source=dtc&utm_medium=podcast&utm_content=e&rPodcast⁠Subscribe on YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@DTCPodcastSubscribe to DTC: ⁠https://www.directtoconsumer.co/⁠Listen to DTC Podcast: ⁠https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/dtcpodcast

When email revenue drops, most teams guess. This episode shows how to diagnose it systematically.Jordan breaks down the two real drivers of email revenue decline: fewer emails sent and lower revenue per email sent — and walks through the exact hierarchy of metrics that explain what’s actually happening inside Klaviyo.You’ll learn how to:Identify whether the problem is frequency, send size, segmentation, or list healthUnderstand how segment mix and message mix impact revenueSeparate real performance issues from attribution noiseEvaluate inboxing, relevance, and engagement the right wayUse Shopify, Klaviyo, and attribution models to determine whether purchase behavior actually changed#EmailMarketing #Pilothouse #CustomerRetention #LifecycleMarketing #EmailAnalytics #Segmentation #MarketingAttribution #InboxDeliverability #EcommerceMarketing #DTC00:00 — Introduction01:00 — The only framework you need: emails sent vs revenue per email sent03:12 — The real reasons email volume declines05:33 — Segment mix: the silent lever behind performance10:48 — Tune-out vs opt-out: what’s actually shrinking your list15:40 — Why relevance and inboxing determine revenue per email26:34 — Attribution reality: when revenue falls but growth improvesWork with Pilothouse: ⁠https://www.pilothouse.co/get-in-touch?utm_source=dtc&utm_medium=podcast&utm_content=e&rPodcast⁠Subscribe on YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@DTCPodcastSubscribe to DTC: ⁠https://www.directtoconsumer.co/⁠Listen to DTC Podcast: ⁠https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/dtcpodcast

Advertising gets people to your site... But your site is what actually makes you money.In this episode, Jordan breaks down DEWALT’s ecommerce ecosystem to show what really happens after someone clicks an ad, an email, or a retargeting link. He walks through how DEWALT structures its homepage, category pages, PDPs, email program, and product discovery to turn awareness into revenue, not just traffic.You’ll see how DEWALT balances brand and performance, how their Site Funnels actually work in practice, and where email, CRO, and on-site merchandising fit into a modern post-click revenue engine. #EmailMarketing #RetentionMarketing #Ecommerce #DTC #CRO #ConversionRateOptimization #PostClickMarketing #CustomerRetention #Klaviyo #ProductDiscovery #EmailStrategy #LifecycleMarketing #Shopify #EcommerceGrowth #MarketingPodcast #PerformanceMarketing #DigitalMarketing #BrandMarketing #EcommerceStrategy #CustomerExperience00:00 – Introduction01:00 – Why DEWALT’s ecosystem works04:33 – The “car vs gas” model for ecommerce09:23 – How DEWALT structures its homepage12:16 – How DEWALT uses email for product discovery18:00 – Why homepage order controls conversion28:14 – Category pages that actually sell33:02 – How PDPs should handle upsells and bundles40:16 – Where DEWALT leaves money on the table43:42 – DEWALT vs Makita: brand site vs ecommerce site47:02 – What to steal for your own siteWork with Pilothouse: ⁠⁠https://www.pilothouse.co/get-in-touch?utm_source=dtc&utm_medium=podcast&utm_content=e&rPodcast⁠⁠Subscribe on YouTube: ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@DTCPodcast⁠Subscribe to DTC: ⁠⁠https://www.directtoconsumer.co/⁠⁠Listen to DTC Podcast: ⁠⁠https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/dtcpodcast

In this episode, Jordan breaks down Site Funnels 1.0, a post-click revenue system designed to turn traffic, email, and organic visitors into low-cost, compounding revenue. You’ll learn how the world’s best ecommerce teams think about funnels, choke points, and psychological progression across the site and why improving conversion rate is often the fastest way to grow without increasing ad spend.Jordan walks through how visitors move from homepage to category pages to product pages to checkout, how to identify the moments that control revenue, and how to design funnels for both qualified and unqualified traffic. Hashtags:#ecommerce #cro #conversionrateoptimization #dtc #shopify #emailmarketing #retentionmarketing #growthmarketing #onlinestore #digitalmarketing #funnelmarketing #performancecommerce #customerjourney #postclick #ecommercestrategy Timestamps:00:00 – Introduction: Why a 0.5% conversion rate destroys revenue02:29 – Ads create awareness, websites create revenue11:27 – The four stages every site must solve20:15 – The two-minute rule for conversions32:28 – The five site funnels that drive ecommerce revenue49:41 – Why PDPs are the real revenue engineWork with Pilothouse: ⁠https://www.pilothouse.co/get-in-touch?utm_source=dtc&utm_medium=podcast&utm_content=e&rPodcast⁠Subscribe on YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@DTCPodcastSubscribe to DTC: ⁠https://www.directtoconsumer.co/⁠Listen to DTC Podcast: ⁠https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/dtcpodcast

Conversion rate optimization is not a “nice to have.” It is the most reliable way to increase profit without increasing spend.In this episode, Jordan breaks down the financial case for CRO using a simple, realistic model that compares three paths: holding steady, scaling ad spend, and improving site conversion. The results are clear. Spending more on ads can reduce margin, while improving conversion rate increases revenue, efficiency, and profit at the same time.You’ll learn why brands should maximize low-cost, owned revenue first, how CRO impacts MER, ROI, and margin, and why advertising should support owned traffic growth, not replace it. Jordan also walks through where CRO fits in the broader ecommerce stack, from site fundamentals and email to paid media and awareness channels.#ecommerce #conversionrateoptimization #cro #emailmarketing #retentionmarketing #ownedmedia #dtc #digitalmarketing #pilothouse #dtcnewsletter #dtcpodcast00:00 Introduction00:59 The financial case for CRO explained03:38 Ads vs CRO: the spreadsheet comparison08:31 How scaling ad spend can reduce margin10:28 Why CRO dramatically improves ROI and efficiency15:45 The real purpose of advertisingWork with Pilothouse: ⁠https://www.pilothouse.co/get-in-touch?utm_source=dtc&utm_medium=podcast&utm_content=e&rPodcast⁠Subscribe on YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@DTCPodcastSubscribe to DTC: ⁠https://www.directtoconsumer.co/⁠Listen to DTC Podcast: ⁠https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/dtcpodcast

Most brands obsess over ads and ignore the moment that matters most: where the click lands. In this episode, Jordan Gordon and Pilothouse strategist Taylor Cain break down how to decide whether traffic should go to your homepage, a PDP, a collection, or a dedicated landing page—plus how to diagnose when conversion rate issues aren’t about your ad at all.You’ll learn:When a landing page outperforms your homepage (and when it doesn’t)How consideration level, pricing, and message clarity determine the ideal click-through pathWhy “anchoring” and UX sequencing can dramatically change conversion ratesHow testing new PDP structures (including delaying price) can increase resultsHow to build fast, scrappy landing pages that plug cleanly into ShopifyWhat heatmaps, scroll behavior, and section-level engagement reveal about frictionWhy iteration beats theory — and how to develop a testing mindset that actually finds signal#EmailMarketing #RetentionMarketing #CRO #LandingPages #EcommerceStrategy #DTCMarketing #ShopifyBrands00:00 — Introduction01:00 — When a Landing Page Beats Your Homepage03:00 — How Disrupted Traffic Changes Your Funnel06:00 — Rising Prices, Rising Consideration10:00 — PDP vs Landing Page: Which One Converts Better?14:00 — Why Testing Beats Theory Every Time20:00 — The Underrated Power of Email Capture on Landers29:00 — Inside a High-Performing Landing Page Build Work with Pilothouse: ⁠https://www.pilothouse.co/get-in-touch?utm_source=dtc&utm_medium=podcast&utm_content=e&rPodcast⁠Subscribe on YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@DTCPodcastSubscribe to DTC: ⁠https://www.directtoconsumer.co/⁠Listen to DTC Podcast: ⁠https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/dtcpodcast