Toot or Boot

Disengagement at work is often framed as an attitude problem. But what if it’s actually a nervous system response? In this episode of Toot or Boot, Stacey Nordwall sits down with HR leader and psychology-trained strategist Erica Spitale to unpack the deeper forces behind workplace disengagement, trust, and emotional safety. Together they explore why employees withdraw when environments feel unsafe, how organizations misunderstand emotions at work, and why productivity without humanity simply doesn’t last. The conversation digs into the complex reality of modern work: employees bringing global crises, economic stress, and personal uncertainty into the workplace while organizations attempt to maintain focus and output. Erica offers a powerful reframing — emotions are not distractions; they are data. Stacey and Erica also examine the fragile nature of trust at work, how it forms (and collapses), and why trust is less about individuals and more about the conditions organizations create. Along the way they tackle the tension between emotional expression and professional boundaries, the myth of “political neutrality” at work, and the structural forces behind disengagement. If you’ve ever wondered why employees seem checked out, why trust at work feels fragile, or how leaders can build healthier workplaces without sacrificing accountability, this conversation offers a more human framework for understanding what’s really happening. Key Takeaways Workplace disengagement is often a nervous system response to perceived threat, not laziness or apathy. Employees disengage when they lack psychological safety, belonging, or trust in their environment. Emotions at work are data points, revealing what matters and where friction exists. Organizations frequently mislabel disengagement as an individual attitude problem instead of a systemic issue. Productivity without acknowledging human needs cannot be sustained long-term. Trust in the workplace is not an individual trait — it is an environmental outcome created by conditions. Employees maintain multiple relationships at work: with their job, their team, and the organization. Leaders must balance clear expectations with humane assumptions. Emotional expression and professional boundaries can coexist — workplaces need space for both engagement and retreat. During economic uncertainty, organizations should invest in developing existing employees rather than relying solely on hiring. Timestamps 00:00 – Why the modern workplace feels emotionally heavy 02:00 – The idea of disengagement as a nervous system response 05:00 – Why disengagement is often misdiagnosed as an attitude problem 08:30 – Making space for emotions while maintaining workplace boundaries 12:00 – Why emotions at work provide valuable organizational data 17:00 – The myth of political neutrality in workplaces 19:00 – Why sustainable productivity requires humanity 23:00 – The complicated role of trust in organizations 28:00 – Trust as an environmental condition, not a personality trait 33:00 – AI hype, responsible leadership, and investing in existing employees

Hiring has never felt more confusing — for candidates, recruiters, or the HR teams stuck in the middle. Between ATS myths, bad advice on TikTok, the Mobley v. Workday lawsuit, and a flood of AI-powered recruiting tools no one fully understands, it’s no surprise people are frustrated and misinformed. In this episode of Toot or Boot, Stacey Nordwall is joined by talent experts Dani Herrera and T. Tara Turk-Haynes to pull back the curtain on what actually happens behind the scenes of recruiting. They break down common ATS misconceptions, explain how knockout questions really work, unpack the rise of grifters targeting desperate job seekers, and explore the messy overlap between automation and AI. The trio also digs into the Mobley lawsuit: what triggers instant rejections, when discrimination comes from the humans (not the software), how automation gets misread as AI, and why companies should be terrified of buying shiny tools without asking hard questions about data, bias, legality, and accountability. If you’ve ever wondered why you got rejected in 30 seconds, who really makes hiring decisions, or why every “ATS-proof résumé” online is a scam, this episode gives you the truth — with humor, receipts, and the kind of grounded reality only seasoned recruiters can offer. Key Takeaways Recruiters are not the final decision makers — hiring managers are. ATS systems don’t “reject” people; knockout questions and human setup errors do. Automation ≠ AI — and most instant rejections are automation, not algorithms. Keywords help recruiters search, but keyword stuffing is unnecessary and harmful. Résumé templates claiming to be “ATS-compliant” are pure grift. Many interviewers receive no training, which derails fair hiring. Workday and other large systems are only as ethical as the people who configure them. The Mobley lawsuit highlights systemic, not just AI-driven, discrimination risks. HR teams must ask vendors hard questions about data sources, audits, and bias. Candidates should be wary of bad online advice and seek guidance from real recruiters. Timestamps 00:00 — Why recruiting feels like a black box 02:00 — What recruiters actually control (and don’t) 07:00 — How ATSs really work behind the scenes 14:00 — The truth about keyword myths and “résumé hacks” 20:00 — How knock-out questions trigger instant rejections 23:00 — Grifters preying on job seekers with false promises 28:00 — Workday as ATS and HRIS — why that matters 33:00 — The deeper problem behind Mobley v. Workday 47:00 — When AI amplifies human bias instead of preventing it 55:00 — The questions HR must ask AI vendors now

Work shouldn’t be the worst part of your week — but for too many people, it still is. In this episode of Toot or Boot, Stacey Nordwall talks with Madison Butler — author of Let Them See You — about what it really means to show up as yourself at work, even when systems weren’t built for you. Together, they unpack authenticity, burnout, boundaries, and what happens when companies say they value “culture fit” but really mean “sameness.” Madison shares the story that sparked her journey toward radical authenticity — from code-switching and corporate conformity to refusing to straighten her hair for anyone again — and how that moment changed everything. She and Stacey get candid about navigating fear-based leadership, detaching self-worth from productivity, and finding joy when the world (and the workplace) keeps serving chaos. It’s real talk about identity, healing, and humanity at work — the messy, necessary kind that actually makes things better. Key Takeaways: Authenticity isn’t about performance — it’s about liberation. “Culture fit” is just code for exclusion; hire for value add. Fear-based leadership thrives because it protects power, not people. You can’t heal burnout inside the system that caused it. Detaching your worth from work is an act of resistance. Boundaries are a form of self-preservation, not rebellion. Leaders set the tone — your behavior teaches your team what’s safe. Joy at work isn’t frivolous; it’s fuel for survival. Therapy isn’t a luxury — it’s a leadership skill. Creating space for real humans makes better work, period. Timestamps: 00:00 — Why work shouldn’t send you to therapy 02:00 — How Madison learned to show up as herself 06:00 — The moment she stopped code-switching at work 10:00 — The myth of “authenticity” on social media 15:00 — Burnout, dopamine, and chasing the next thing 20:00 — Fear-based leadership and caring less (on purpose) 23:00 — Detaching identity from job titles 28:00 — Culture fit vs. value add: the truth 33:00 — Likability bias and who gets punished for honesty 36:00 — Leading with joy when everything’s on fire Top Keywords: authenticity at work, burnout recovery, fear-based leadership, work identity, culture fit vs value add, psychological safety, trauma-informed leadership, HR and mental health, joy at work, boundaries and burnout

Something strange is happening in the C-suite — and employees are the ones feeling it. In this fiery and funny episode of Toot or Boot, Stacey Nordwall is joined by Jessica Winder and Kim Rohrer to unpack a record-breaking trend: more CEOs have stepped down in 2025 than any year in recent history. They dig into why leaders are bailing, what’s really going on behind the “personal reasons” PR statements, and how the revolving door at the top is wrecking trust, culture, and stability across organizations. From “glass cliff” appointments to the “CEO gig economy,” the conversation is equal parts HR therapy and truth serum about power, privilege, and burnout at the top. The crew also looks ahead — asking what happens when nobody even wants to be in charge anymore. And yes, they go there: could AI actually replace a CEO? Key Takeaways: CEO departures hit a 20-year high — and “no reason given” often hides real turmoil. Interim CEOs and “fractional” leaders create confusion, not stability. Boards keep firing individuals instead of fixing systemic problems. The “glass cliff” still pushes women — especially Black women — into impossible roles. Employees feel the ripple effect: fear, fatigue, and lost trust. Leadership churn erodes culture faster than layoffs do. The next generation isn’t aspiring to lead — and that’s a warning sign. Burnout isn’t just for employees; executives are breaking too. AI “leaders” aren’t a solution — but the fantasy says a lot about disillusionment. The future of leadership requires re-imagining power, not recycling it. Timestamps: 00:00 — Welcome and introductions: why CEOs are “not okay.” 04:20 — The CEO exodus by the numbers — record turnover in 2025. 07:15 — Interim CEOs, scapegoating, and corporate gaslighting. 10:30 — Boards keep firing the wrong people. 13:00 — The “glass cliff” and why women say “I’m out.” 15:00 — What’s really behind “voluntary departures.” 20:30 — The shrinking pipeline for diverse leadership. 28:00 — Culture collapse: how constant CEO changes wreck teams. 33:00 — Loyalty vs. chaos: what employees should expect now. 36:00 — Can AI be your CEO? (We said it.) Top Keywords: CEO turnover, leadership instability, HR insight, glass cliff, burnout, workplace culture, board dynamics, interim CEO, employee trust, diversity in leadership

Black women are being pushed out of the U.S. workforce at alarming rates—and it’s not by choice. In this powerful episode of Toot or Boot, host Stacey Nordwall sits down with workplace equity expert T. Tara Turk-Haynes and communications leader and career strategist Cassandra Babilya to unpack how federal job cuts, dismantled DEI programs, and systemic neglect have created an economic crisis that reveals much more than the headlines. Together, they explore what this moment says about the state of work, leadership, and allyship—and what HR and business leaders can actually do to respond. Takeaways Black women’s unemployment rate has surged past 7%, the highest of any demographic group. Federal job cuts are erasing a long-standing path to middle-class stability for Black workers. The dismantling of DEI programs has disproportionately removed Black women from leadership roles. “Economic canary in the coal mine”: what happens to Black women first eventually affects everyone. Many former DEI and HR professionals are now turning to entrepreneurship out of necessity, not choice. Fear of “job hugging” and retaliation may be stifling allyship inside organizations. Mutual aid and microgrants are emerging as critical lifelines for displaced workers. Business leaders must proactively assess who’s being most affected by layoffs and hiring freezes. Individual action—referrals, donations, advocacy—still matters when sustained collectively. True allyship means staying present, vocal, and engaged when it’s no longer convenient. Chapters 00:00 – Opening: Black women and federal job cuts set the stage. 05:47 – Cassandra’s “gong” moment: realizing this isn’t a blip. 07:15 – Tara on being “pushed” into entrepreneurship. 10:35 – Why the silence from supposed allies feels like betrayal. 13:55 – The rise of Black women entrepreneurs as a survival strategy. 17:05 – Understanding why Black women are the canary in the coal mine. 21:09 – How layoffs in HR and DEI deepen inequality across the workforce. 29:10 – The erosion of collective bravery and the rise of isolation. 35:50 – Mutual aid and community action in the face of federal cuts. 43:22 – The call to HR: prove you’re human resources, not corporate defense. Resources: https://fortune.com/2025/08/15/black-female-leadership-future-ceos-erased-dei/ https://www.npr.org/2025/04/27/nx-s1-5349442/black-federal-employees-trump-cuts https://www.govexec.com/workforce/2025/05/agencies-majority-women-and-minority-workforces-are-some-hardest-hit-trump-staff-cuts-new-report-finds/405179/ https://19thnews.org/2025/07/black-women-unemployment-jobs-warning-sign/ https://www.msnbc.com/know-your-value/business-culture/300000-black-women-left-labor-force-3-months-s-not-coincidence-rcna219355 https://time.com/7315624/rising-unemployment-black-women-economy/ https://www.epi.org/blog/whats-behind-rising-unemployment-for-black-workers/ https://www.sheenmagazine.com/relief-is-resistance-the-state-of-women-relief-fund/

This episode dives into why some CEOs are paying the price for walking back DEI, how the employer-employee relationship has fundamentally shifted, and the horrifying conditions faced by Meta’s outsourced content moderators. From strategic miscalculations to moral failures, we examine what these stories tell us about leadership, labor, and the values that shape today’s workplaces. Connect: With Anessa: On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anessafike/ On her website: https://www.fikeandco.com/ Her book: https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-revolution-of-work-fuck-the-patriarchy-and-the-workplace-it-built-anessa-fike/21206822?ean=9781961347540&next=t With Stacey on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/staceynordwall/ Articles: How some corporations miscalculated the impact of abandoning DEI Has the Labor Market changed or have employees? Meta faces Ghana lawsuits over impact of extreme content on moderators

This week, we're diving into three concerning workplace trends: First, employee engagement is declining sharply, with managers under 35 and female managers leading this downward slide—potentially because they're caught in middle management roles with high responsibility but little decision-making power. Meanwhile, BNY Mellon is increasing its office mandate from three to four days weekly by September 2025, again bringing up the question of if RTOs are actually solving the challenges businesses are having. Finally, tech CEOs are raising alarms about candidates using AI to fake their way through remote job interviews—with Gartner projecting that by 2028, one in four global job applicants will be using AI-generated profiles, posing serious security risks beyond simple resume fraud. Connect: With Lee Rubin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rubinl/ With Stacey Nordwall on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/staceynordwall/ Articles: Employee Engagement is Dropping and Managers are leading the slide BNY asks employees to return to office four days a week by September Fake job seekers are flooding U.S. companies that are hiring for remote positions, tech CEOs say

This week, we dive into the real-world impacts of DEI rollbacks, workplace discrimination, and employee disengagement. We examine how Target faced boycotts and significant business impacts after eliminating DEI initiatives recently met with Rev. Al Sharpton to address the impacts of boycotts. We'll also explore troubling new research showing increased workplace discrimination against LGBTQ+ employees amid a record year of anti-LGBTQ+ legislation. Finally, we discuss the emerging concept of "quiet cracking" and what it reveals about the current state of workplace wellbeing and employee engagement. Connect: with Steven Huang on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thestevenhuang/ or sign up for his newsletter: https://setthesetting.substack.com/ with Stacey Nordwall on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/staceynordwall/ Articles: Rev Al Sharpton meets with Target CEO over halting of DEI initiative LGBTQ+ workers report more discrimination, less happiness at work What is ‘quiet cracking’? Worker disengagement has a new name

In this episode, we analyze new Glassdoor research suggesting employees are increasingly deprioritizing workplace relationships, questioning whether this shift stems from broader social disconnection or reflects changing priorities in a hybrid world. We also discuss a revealing Perceptyx survey showing that while 95% of HR teams are collecting employee feedback, only 27% feel confident they can act on it—highlighting the growing burnout crisis among HR professionals who are stretched too thin. Finally, we explore the controversy surrounding Meta's "do not rehire" list, examining the tension between standard HR offboarding practices and transparency in employment relationships. Connect: Kim Minnick: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kim-minnick/ Stacey Nordwall: https://www.linkedin.com/in/staceynordwall/ Articles: Employees care less and less about workplace relationships, new research finds Stressed HR teams say they can’t take action on employee feedback Meta keeps secret ‘do not rehire’ list of ex-employees — despite exceptional performance reviews: report

In this special April Fool’s Day episode, host Stacey Nordwall hands over the reins to co-producer Lexi Croswell for a fun twist on the usual format. Instead of tooting or booting HR headlines, Stacey and HR consultant Nadia Eran have to decide if the headlines are real or fake – and why! Connect: Nadia Eran -> on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nadiaeran/ Or her website Future in Work: https://futureinwork.com/ Lexi Croswell -> on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexiscroswell/ Or her website: https://www.alexiscroswell.com/services Stacey Nordwall -> On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/staceynordwall/

We discuss a recent sex discrimination case where a male employee in a female-dominated workplace filed a claim after being excluded from awards with the announcement "it's not going to be any of the men." We explore the complex dynamics of being in the minority at work. Next, we analyze the growing trend of companies like Google and the Trump administration offering buyouts with an underlying message of "get on board or get out." What does this signal about workplace culture when organizations are explicitly prioritizing mission alignment over accommodating diverse perspectives? Finally, we question the emerging concept of "revenge quitting" - is this just a rebranding of employees setting reasonable boundaries by leaving toxic environments? We examine how companies are scrambling to prevent turnover, but seemingly don't want to acknowledge how this is the work of DEI and HR. Connect with DeMario: On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/demario-bell-7a510994/ Connect with Stacey: On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/staceynordwall/ Articles Man loses sex discrimination claim after boss says ‘sorry boys’ at awards do Why Trump and Google are paying employees to quit and what it means for your business 5 ways employers can prevent employees from revenge quitting in 2025

Matt is back to talk about the growing divide in workplace flexibility across different sectors of the workforce. We dive into new research showing how Britain's frontline workers are being left behind in the flexible work revolution, creating a "two-tier" system. We'll explore Randstad's 2025 Workmonitor report revealing that workers now prioritize work-life balance over pay, and discuss JP Morgan CEO Jamie Dimon's stance against remote work (spoiler - he really f*ing hates it!). Connect with Matt: On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewmcfarlane/ Or here: https://linktr.ee/fndnseries Articles: Inequality in flexible working dividing Britain into ‘two-tier workforce’It's not about the money. Employees now choose work-life balance over pay‘I’ve had it’: JP Morgan boss rails against Gen Z in expletive-laden outburst

Join host Stacey Nordwall and special guests Julie Turney and Stephanie Lemek for a deep dive into HR burnout - an issue that has become critical for the field.Drawing insights from Emily and Amelia Nagoski's book "Burnout," the conversation goes beyond the oversimplified notion that burnout is just feeling tired or can be fixed with a long weekend. Instead, they explore how burnout represents a biological stress cycle that needs proper completion, discussing concepts like "Human Giver Syndrome" and the unique challenges faced by HR professionals who are often expected to maintain endless empathy while managing their own stress.The episode critically examines why HR practitioners are particularly vulnerable to burnout, exploring factors like the isolation of the role, the expectation of constant emotional labor, and the tension between doing what's right and what's organizationally possible. They also challenge conventional burnout prevention advice, critiquing surface-level solutions like "take advantage of company benefits" or "have meeting blackout days" in favor of more systemic approaches.Whether you're an HR professional feeling overwhelmed by increasing demands and limited resources, or a leader looking to better support your HR team, this episode offers both validation and practical strategies for addressing burnout in the human resources field. The discussion particularly resonates in a post-pandemic context, where HR roles have faced greater demands while often being first in line for resource cuts. Connect with Stephanie: On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephanielemek/ At her website: https://www.thewoundedworkforce.com/ Connect with Julie: On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/iamjulieturney/ At her website: https://www.hratheart.com/ Connect with Stacey: On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/staceynordwall/ Articles and book: Beyond burnout: Why changing how we talk about employee well-being could help solve itHalf of HR report burnout, wanting renewed job focusWhy HR leaders are struggling to retain their own team members.8 Surprising HR Burnout Statistics in 2025.Burnout