Untidy Faith

In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, Kate Boyd sits down with Dr. Beth Allison Barr, historian and author of The Making of Biblical Womanhood and Becoming the Pastor’s Wife, for a fascinating conversation about how the role of pastor’s wife has functioned to limit women’s leadership in the church.This isn’t just about theological debates—it’s about recognizing how economic anxieties, racial prejudice, and fear of losing privilege have repeatedly driven backlash against women’s independence throughout history, and how biblical language gets weaponized to justify keeping women in subordinate, unpaid positions.Topics Covered* How 2025 marks the 25th anniversary of the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message that encoded complementarian theology into Southern Baptist doctrine, and recognizing this as part of a historical pattern where women’s subordination rises during periods when women gain legal and economic independence* Understanding backlash against women’s ordination as rooted in cultural anxieties—particularly white anxiety about demographic changes and fears about losing economic privilege—rather than purely theological concerns about biblical interpretation* Why the pastor’s wife role has become “the primary ministry role model for women” in conservative churches, creating a safe space for women’s gifts while simultaneously keeping them under male authority and conditioning congregations to reject independent female leadership* The economic reality that women’s ministry is almost always expected to be unpaid volunteer work while men’s ministry comes with salaries and benefits, revealing how “noble calling” language masks structural inequality and devalues women’s contributions* How closely associating female leadership with marriage trains churches and broader culture to only accept women’s authority when it’s subordinate to men, contributing to resistance against women in business, politics, and other spheres beyond the church* What the church has lost by silencing women’s theological voices, contrasting with historical examples like Catherine of Siena convincing the Pope to return to Rome because medieval Christianity respected that “God spoke through women to men”Timestamps: 01:00 25 Years of Complementarian Theology’s Damage 05:00 Cultural Anxieties Driving the Backlash Against Women 10:00 How Economic Fears Shape Attitudes Toward Women’s Equality 14:00 The Pastor’s Wife Role as Gatekeeper to Female Leadership 19:00 Unspoken Expectations and Their Cost to Women 23:00 What the Church Loses Without Women’s Voices 28:00 Historical Hope: Women Who Never Stopped Speaking 32:00 Finding Beth’s Work and Resources This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kateboyd.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, Kate Boyd sits down with Mandy Capehart, author of Restorative Grief, for an intimate conversation about how faith deconstruction is actually a complex grief process that affects every dimension of our lives.This isn't just about changing your theology—it's about recognizing that when we deconstruct faith, we're grieving the loss of safety, belonging, community, identity, and even our relationship with our own bodies. Mandy offers a compassionate framework for understanding why this process is so difficult and how healing can happen holistically.Mandy Capehart is a grief educator, somatic practitioner, and author of Restorative Grief. She hosts the Restorative Grief podcast and leads the Restorative Grief Project, a supportive online community. Her work focuses on helping people understand grief as a holistic experience that involves heart, mind, body, and spirit.Topics Covered* Understanding faith deconstruction as a layered grief process that involves losing "the systems and structures that have really shaped our sense of safety, belonging, and community," not just changing beliefs about theology or biblical interpretation* How leaving faith communities mirrors other major life transitions like divorce or coming out, particularly when "we have disrupted our foundation" and can no longer rely on our faith as the solid rock during other difficulties* The difference between fitting in and true belonging, and how many people discover they were conditionally accepted in their faith communities only when they could edit themselves to match expectations rather than bring their full selves* Why intellectualizing deconstruction can become a protective strategy that creates "an illusion of control" while avoiding the necessary work of processing how these changes affect us emotionally and somatically in our bodies* How faith communities often suppress connection to our physical selves, leading to embodied symptoms like "tightness in their throat, in their chest" and the inability to speak authentically when our voices have been deemed unsafe or invalid* The transformative power of learning to "take up space" and speak with authenticity, even when it means risking correction or disagreement, and finding safety in being humbled while maintaining belongingTimestamps: 01:00 What Are We Actually Grieving in Faith Deconstruction? 05:00 Beyond Theology: How Environment and Values Shape Us 11:00 Why Faith Deconstruction Looks Like Divorce 18:00 Grieving Community and the Loss of Belonging 23:00 Identity Grief: When Labels and Roles No Longer Fit 29:00 How Grief and Transition Show Up in Our Bodies 36:00 Learning to Take Up Space and Use Our Voices 40:00 Restorative Grief: Finding Safety in the Eye of the Storm 47:00 Finding Mandy's Work and Resources This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kateboyd.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, Kate Boyd sits down with Rohadi, author of When We Belong, for a provocative conversation about the difference between progressive Christianity and truly decolonized faith.This isn't about finding a more liberal church or updating your theology—it's about fundamentally reimagining what liberative community looks like when we center marginalized voices and embody radical love ethics in our neighborhoods and daily lives.Rohadi is an author, speaker, and community leader who focuses on decolonizing Christianity and embodied spiritual practices. He leads an online faith community called A Beautiful Table and hosts the podcast series "Farewell Evangelicalism." His upcoming book on embodied meditations will be released in 2026.Topics Covered* Why leaving white evangelicalism for progressive or liberal churches often replicates the same harmful patterns, as recent data shows most "liberal" denominations still vote majority Republican and maintain foundational issues with ableism and white supremacy* Understanding how evangelical formation is designed to control bodies, particularly women and children, and why those who don't conform to white male, cisgender, able-bodied norms will "never belong fully" regardless of theological adjustments* The crucial difference between knowledge and embodied wisdom—why reading books about justice isn't the same as participating in liberative community that seeks "right repair unto right relationship" with land, people, and resources* How decolonizing faith requires listening to indigenous voices and resistance movements specific to the land where your feet touch, rather than seeking universal solutions or centering white voices in leadership* Exploring embodied spiritual practices like body scans and breath work that help reclaim the body after evangelical teachings that promote distrust and disconnection from physical experiences and emotions* Why truly liberative communities are found "on the margins"—in recovery churches, queer churches, and racialized communities—and how white people can join existing movements without needing to lead or start their own organizationsTimestamps: 01:00 Beyond Evangelicalism: Progressive vs. Decolonized Faith 04:00 How Evangelical Formation Controls Bodies and Margins 09:00 The Lifelong Process of Unlearning White Supremacist Patterns 14:00 Moving Slow: Relationships, Grief, and Embodied Wisdom 21:00 Living in Tension: Safety, Community, and Vulnerability 26:00 Whose Traditions? Questioning Christian Orthodoxy and Authority 33:00 Embodying Radical Love Ethics in Local Context f37:00 Finding Rohadi's Work and Resources This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kateboyd.substack.com/subscribe

In 2 Samuel 19, we witness David's complicated return to power after Absalom's death—a chapter that reveals the messy intersection of grief, politics, and justice. Through three pivotal encounters on his journey back to Jerusalem, we see how David's approach to leadership prioritizes political expediency over genuine justice, particularly in his heartbreaking dismissal of Mephibosheth's legitimate grievances. This chapter serves as a sobering preview of the kingdom's coming division, showing us the cost of leadership that values loyalty over righteousness and efficiency over authentic relationship.Topics We Cover* How David's public mourning for Absalom gets shut down by Joab, leading to immediate political maneuvering that reveals the performative nature of his subsequent "mercy"* Examining David's encounters with Shimei (performative forgiveness), Mephibosheth (dismissive injustice), and Barzillai (transactional loyalty) as a study in how power corrupts discernment* Why David's unjust ruling that divides Saul's land represents both a violation of Torah justice and literary foreshadowing of the kingdom's eventual split* How David's calculated mercy exposes a broader cultural pattern of transactional relationships that prioritizes political gain over authentic love and loyalty* Exploring how David's "move fast and break things" approach to leadership reflects systems that value efficiency over people, ultimately fracturing both family and kingdomTimestamps:01:42 David's Return to Jerusalem05:13 David's Grief and Political Maneuvering10:05 Joab's Role and David's Struggles13:33 Generational Trauma and Loyalty19:51 David's Strategic Forgiveness25:20 Chronological and Literary Analysis27:02 The Impact of David's Actions on Mephibosheth30:11 David's Strategic Kindness and Manipulation33:58 The Exhaustion of Maneuvering in a Toxic System38:39 Foreshadowing the Split of the Kingdom44:43 Takeaways This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kateboyd.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, host Kate Boyd sits down with Julia Rocchi to explore how design thinking principles can transform our approach to spiritual questioning. Julia, a practicing Roman Catholic with expertise in design thinking and facilitation, shares how asking better questions—rather than seeking definitive answers—can deepen our faith journey and create space for mystery and growth. This conversation offers practical tools for those navigating doubt, deconstruction, or simply wanting to cultivate a more curious and expansive relationship with God.Topics Covered* Design Thinking Meets Faith: How principles from design thinking—particularly the art of asking strong, open-ended questions—can enhance spiritual exploration and move us beyond binary thinking* Questions as Tools, Not Threats: Reframing spiritual questioning as complementary to faith rather than opposing it, and understanding how curiosity can foster humility, compassion, and spiritual growth* The Design Thinking Examen: A practical, step-by-step spiritual practice that adapts traditional Ignatian reflection with design thinking principles to help process life's challenges through productive questioning* Community and Embodied Faith: The vital role of community in spiritual questioning, including how sharing questions out loud transforms them and how healthy faith communities can enhance rather than restrict our spiritual curiosity* Productive Tension in Prayer: Embracing discomfort and uncertainty as valuable aspects of spiritual practice, learning to sit with questions rather than rushing toward answersTimestamps:01:47 Understanding Design Thinking05:10 The Power of Questions in Faith12:58 Design Thinking Tactics for Spiritual Growth16:35 Incorporating Questions into Spiritual Practice22:42 The Role of Community in Spiritual Questions This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kateboyd.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode, we dive deep into one of the most bizarre and tragic chapters in the David narrative - the death of Absalom. Set against the backdrop of a father-son civil war, 2 Samuel 18 tells the surreal story of Absalom getting caught in a tree while riding a mule, and Joab's brutal decision to kill him despite David's explicit command to "deal gently" with his son. We explore the literary complexity of this text, including surprising parallels to Jesus' death, the politics of empire, and the profound cost of unchecked power dynamics within families and kingdoms.Topics Covered* The absurd circumstances of Absalom's death - How Absalom gets stuck in an oak tree while riding a mule and the darkly comic elements that make this biblical narrative so memorable* Literary parallels between Absalom and Jesus - The striking similarities including hanging from a tree, betrayal, burial under stones, and the presence of multiple messengers racing to deliver news* Joab's defiance and the exploitation of the Cushite messenger - How Joab deliberately ignores David's command and sends a foreign messenger (the Cushite) to deliver the devastating news, highlighting issues of belonging and exploitation of marginalized people* David's dual role as king and father - The tension between David's political needs as a ruler and his emotional devastation as a father, including the shift from calling Absalom "the young man" to "my son"* The broader costs of empire and injustice - How this tragic family drama reflects larger themes about the price of power, the perpetuation of cycles of violence, and the missed opportunity to address injustice against Tamar that started the whole conflictTimestamps:01:09 Recap of David and Absalom's Conflict02:07 The Battle and Absalom's Fate03:17 Joab's Defiance and Absalom's Death04:40 The Aftermath and David's Mourning05:26 Literary Parallels with the Crucifixion21:12 Joab's Role and the Cushite Messenger27:17 David's Dual Roles and Moral Dilemmas32:18 Takeaways This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kateboyd.substack.com/subscribe

In this enlightening episode of the Untidy Faith Podcast, host Kate Boyd sits down with Jennifer Layte to explore the concept of stages of faith. Despite many Christians being taught that faith is static or linear, Jennifer shares insights from both James Fowler's modern framework and Teresa of Avila's 16th-century "Interior Castle" to help listeners understand that spiritual growth naturally involves distinct phases and transitions. This conversation offers comfort and clarity for those navigating their own changing relationship with Jesus, especially during periods of deconstruction or spiritual uncertainty.About Jennifer:Jennifer A. G. Layte is a pastor, author of two published novels, and founder of The Pilgrimage—a Jesus-centered online spiritual formation community, created especially to tend to the stories of those who have been hurt by the church or are otherwise struggling in their faith.Jennifer’s training and certification as an Advanced Practice Board Certified Chaplain, a spiritual director, and an ordained pastor have provided her with unique opportunities to work with diverse (on just about every metric) groups of people. The human stories she carries and the ways she has found to shepherd people through the difficult parts of those stories directly influence her writing. Meanwhile, her formal background in literature and theology gives her imaginative ways of retelling the stories of the Bible and of others, encouraging people to live within their own stories better.Jennifer and her husband Paul live in New England with their two adorable rescue dogs, an impressive garden, and, to their fascination but not always delight, an astonishing array of wildlife.Website and Social Media LinksJennifer’s Book Followerhttps://jenniferaglayte.comhttps://the-pilgrimage.orghttps://linktr.ee/jenniferaglayteTopics Covered:* Castles, Mansions, and Soul Work: Discover the fascinating historical frameworks for understanding faith transitions, from a 16th century nun's "Interior Castle" to modern psychological approaches* "I'm Not Sure God Is Anywhere": Why those terrifying spiritual dry spells might actually be doorways to deeper faith, and how knowing about stages can help you not panic when they arrive* When Church Activism Isn't Enough: Jennifer reveals the significant transition that many Western Christians are experiencing today, and why moving beyond the "busy doing" phase often feels so disruptive* Same Beliefs, Different Grip: How you might end up believing many of the same things but holding them completely differently—and why Jennifer went from firmly opposing women pastors to becoming one herself* Loving Across the Divide: Practical wisdom for those moments when you want to scream "Oh my God, what are these people thinking?"—and how to create meaningful connections with those in different faith stagesTimestamps:00:47 Stages of Faith: An Overview14:11 Challenges in Faith Transitions20:58 The Importance of Growth in Faith22:03 Evolving Beliefs and Perspectives28:37 Balancing Tradition and Change29:59 Engaging with Jesus in Faith32:49 Loving Others in Different Stages35:07 Grace in Imperfection This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit kateboyd.substack.com/subscribe