Victors in Grad School

Are you contemplating graduate school or already on the journey? The latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" offers an inspiring and practical guide to thriving in higher education, featuring the remarkable story and expert advice of Dr. Khalid Malik, Director of the Graduate Program in Cybersecurity at the University of Michigan-Flint. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, this episode unfolds with Dr. Khalid Malik's path from his undergraduate studies in Pakistan to becoming a leader in cybersecurity in the U.S. The conversation reveals the power of perseverance, mentorship, and adaptability in achieving academic and professional goals. The Power of Motivation and Mentorship Early in the episode, Dr. Khalid Malik credits his family and professors with instilling the value of continuous education, sharing how their support pushed him beyond a bachelor's degree and set him on a global academic path. Their influence helped him pursue a master's, followed by a PhD abroad, despite lucrative job offers after his initial graduation. The takeaway? Seek encouragement from your community and mentorship to fuel your ambition, even when the easier path seems tempting. Embracing Interdisciplinary Research A key theme is the importance of interdisciplinary learning. Dr. Khalid Malik emphasizes that true innovation often lies at the intersections of fields. He shares examples from his own lab, where projects combine AI, computer science, biology, and engineering to solve complex problems like brain disease diagnostics. For students, he advises: build strong fundamentals and remain open to broad, cross-disciplinary work—this not only enriches your education but also enhances your impact and career prospects. The Role of Agility and Communication Moving overseas for his PhD demanded rapid adaptation. Dr. Khalid Malik candidly recounts overcoming language barriers and cultural differences through "agility" and a willingness to listen and learn. He stresses the power of effective communication: expressing your ideas clearly, welcoming feedback, and being persistent when reaching out to faculty opens doors otherwise missed. Navigating the Future with AI A timely takeaway centers on the evolving landscape of technology, especially AI. Dr. Khalid Malik urges students not to fear AI, but to learn its strengths and limitations, integrating it as a tool rather than seeing it as a replacement. Understanding how to work alongside new technologies is, he argues, essential for future-proofing your career. Encouragement to Prospective Students For anyone eyeing grad school, Dr. Khalid Malik and Dr. Christopher Lewis offer essential advice: stay curious, leverage mentorship, embrace interdisciplinary opportunities, and never hesitate to raise your hand for new experiences. Graduate school is more than academics—it's about growth, adaptability, and building meaningful connections. If you're seeking motivation, actionable tips, or simply want to hear a candid success story, don't miss this episode of "Victors in Grad School." Listen in and take your next step toward graduate school success! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, I am here to walk alongside you as you are going through this graduate school journey that you're on now. You might be at the very beginning, just starting to touch the I place in the sense of being able to figure out what you want to do. Or maybe you already applied, maybe you've been accepted, maybe you're in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:39]: Doesn't matter where you are in this journey, there are things that you can do right now, this minute to help you in being successful on the journey that you're on. And that's why this show exists. That's why this podcast is here, to help you, to walk alongside you and to provide you with some tools for your toolbox to be able to help you, to be able to learn from others along the way that that have done this and will help you in the journey that you're on. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can share the experiences that they had to help you in the experiences that you're going to have. And this week, again, we've got another great guest. Khalid Malik is with us today. And Dr. Malik is a professor at the University of Michigan, Flint. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:21]: He works within our cybersecurity program here and is the director of the Graduate Program in Cybersecurity. And I'm really excited to be able to talk to him about his own experience and to learn a little bit more about his graduate journey to share that with you. Khalid, thanks so much for being here today. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:01:37]: Thank Chris for this opportunity. It's my pleasure to join your podcast. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:42]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here today, and I always start these interviews with an opportunity to go back in time. And I love turning the clock back a little bit to get a little bit better sense of who you were before versus where you are right now. And I know that you did your undergraduate work in Pakistan and you did your undergraduate, you did your master's work in Pakistan. You went off, you worked for a bit, and then you went and you decided to go even further. But I want to go back to when you were a student in Pakistan working on that undergraduate degree. You could have probably stopped at a bachelor's Degree you could have stopped there, but you decided to keep going. Bring me back to that point where you said to yourself, I want to keep going. I want to keep going and get that master's degree and then we'll talk about your doctorate degree. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:02:27]: Excellent. So Chris, I must give a credit to the society where I was raised. Actually there was a lot of value of higher education for me. There was a no choice except to continue. Let me put it straightforward. Particularly my parents would never ever allow me to go directly into the job. So they gave me option that, you know, if you think you can do a job and do a master together, certainly you should do it. But graduate, getting a graduation and going for higher education, particularly abroad is very important. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:02:59]: They encouraged me and I myself was highly motivated. I was lucky enough that I got acceptance in for my PhD from seven schools. But it all happens because of the motivation provided by my parents and my, my, my professor. So yeah, I never thought of stopping even when I started my bachelor. And I. One of the thing that I learned from one conversation that, that you know, some conversations make a lot of impact for your future career. I was planning to go to medical school and I was on the borderline. The total score was required to get into the medical school was 829 out of thousand and I was having eight. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:03:40]: But there was six candidate who were having 829. So I waited for six months to get into the medical school and I, I couldn't go into it. And I was sitting with all these big physicians and one of the person just asked me that you know what really you want to do if you don't go into medical school. I said I have opportunity in many fields, particularly veterinary medicine and so on. Is like then why you are not going? I said I want to do something interdisciplinary medical. I can do an interdisciplinary. I can bring math, I can bring statistic. I don't what other field I can do it. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:04:13]: And one of the person, he just says as a joke, he is a very famous New Jersey neurosurgeon now in New Jersey he said to me look at the flip side. Computing program also offer interdisciplinary. I said how? He says like someone has to develop a programs for medicine too. So why don't you if you're good in both and you know how to connect the dots, why don't you look at perspective of going into the computer science. So that was first my motivation that I will not do only bachelor in computer science. I will go for advanced studies as well. Because then I can probably Better leverage on my skills. I knew from my high school that I'm really good in interdisciplinary stuff. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:52]: Now. I know that you went, you got your master's degree and then you went off and you did work and you worked in industry for a little bit of time and at some point that itch came back. You wanted to keep, keep going. You and you decided that you wanted to continue your education and you ended up going and getting a ph. And I guess bring me to that point, because you're out in industry, you're doing great work, you're creating things, you're building things, you're doing things. And I'm guessing making an okay salary to live and being able to do that. But then you flip the script and you make a choice that you want to do something to expand your own knowledge and to push yourself to the next level. So talk to me about that. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:05:41]: Sure. So I must say that when I finished my master thesis, my salary was among 1% of the top candidate. If I could have just tried to settle down, this was a possibility. But that was never the goal. So even when I started my first year, I started writing research papers. I was trying to collaborate with the professors that, you know, I want to do this thing. And many more people were saying, you still just finish a master, you are not a PhD candidate, why you want to do a research. I was trying to explain my long term goals to them, that that's the reason I want to start research and my master. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:06:18]: I was the first person in the university who published paper in journal. Many people were publishing only on conference. I was first one who published it. And that also gave me a little bit of encouragement that I can do that. So I started applying. I got acceptance from six or seven schools. And then I was kind of confused that what should I do, how should I select, what school should I go to? So I talked to my dad and he asked me that why don't you talk to your uncles as well, because they are famous neurosurgeons and highly successful. I said, I will definitely ask everyone, but what are your thoughts? So he told me that, you know what, try to go somewhere where you can not learn your research. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:06:56]: You can learn something from society, but at the same time there should be peace of mind as well. I said, dar, you are bringing in these features or criteria that I never have thought. I was thinking I should pick the best of the best lab and where I can publish it, what is has to do with the culture and other things. He says, no, you learn a lot from your surroundings too. You are not learning only from the books. And said what do you mean by staying in a peaceful society? He said look, if you can't focus on something due to any reason, say the law and our situation is not good or there are some other social issues, you will not be able to very be very productive. I said that's interesting perspective. So I gave him a list. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:07:37]: He says what is your choice? I have respect for all the institute who gave me opportunity. I'm not mentioning the name of institutes but I'm mentioning the name of country. One of the top 1 kind of institute was from Singapore and than Thailand. I thought I told my dad these are my top schools and then there is two in United States. But they are not giving me a fully funded. They are giving me, you know like a 25% effort or something. I and that time I was unable to understand what does 25% and 30% effort mean. So I showed to my dad and he says like first two options are out. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:08:05]: I said why? Why they're out? They are the best school. Look at the QS ranking and it's like tell me all the options. I showed him the option that government of Japan is also offering me this scholarship and he says oh this looks really good. I said then there is a one university in Austri and one in Germany. And he said why you picked, you know, this institute from Singapore? I said I only look at the QS ranking, I don't know anything else. So he said that's not how you should making decision. First talk to the people instead of asking them that you know what school you should do, you should ask them that what criteria should be to select this and the reason why I'm bringing this one. I know many of the students are going to listen. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:08:44]: I hear same mistakes from other students. They pick pick the schools only based on the ranking without thinking that you know what kind of professor you are going to deal with, how successful he is, what kind of personality he has and more importantly where you are going, how peaceful the situation is or overall working environment and so on. So I developed this idea and you know, after talking to a lot of people I my dad particularly said you will learn a new language and new culture as well. So that's why I think you should go to the Japan and it's very peaceful country too. So this is how I ended up going to the Tokyo Institute of Technology. But the process also was a miracle for me. Of course we don't have a time I will share with you the story some other time. But yeah, this is how I ended up going into Turkey Institute and that was an amazing experience as of today, you know, I truly enjoy the bond that I have. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:09:33]: Probably you are aware that, you know, I brought first International industry project here, which we still are doing it, right? That is coming from one of the Japanese cybersecurity company. So. And still I enjoy a lot of connections, even my startup first client. By the way, my startup is supported by the University of Michigan. So our first client client is the government of Japan again. So the. The reason I'm sharing these with the thing is that sometime we should try to do risky things and try to do something that or people are not doing it because then you can reduce the competition that you will feel in rest of the world. So the Japanese connection has significantly impacted my research success both here as well as in Oakland University. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:16]: At every level of education you have to kind of figure out for yourself what it means to be successful. And you found success in the journey that you went on. You got the master's degree, you went and you got your PhD and you've gone on from there. And I guess as you look back at your master's degree at your PhD and the transitions that you had to go through, what did you have to do at both the master's and the doctorate? And it might be different for both. What did you have to do at both of those levels to be able to first set yourself up for success as you were starting in the program and then what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate degrees? Dr. Khalid Malik [00:10:59]: Great question, Chris. Again, if someone think, and sometimes my students think that you are very successful. And even I would say that my colleagues from Ann Arbor and Dearborn campus, you know, they also appreciate that having a startup in U of M fl, this is something that is unheard of. And these things I always tell people that I'm lucky enough, I'm blessed that I am surrounded by good mentor as well as my student. So I got a advice from one of my uncle who is a board of trustee in Henry Ford. He just said me one thing. I was in Japan and I was frustrated that, you know, I work up to 1am and I come back early morning around 8am this is how Japanese culture work. He says, remember one thing, why you are doing this? I said, I have set a lot of goals and I showed him a list that I want to publish this one. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:11:46]: He says, then why there is a stress if you have these goals, are you achieving these goals? I said, I believe so. I mean 80% of the milestone that I said I'm achieving it. He says, then why you are not happy? I said to him, I don't know why I'm not happy. He said, curiosity and hunger for doing a lot of thing is a great thing. But content is also very important. If you achieve something, celebrate it, remain content. If you fail on one or two occasions, you know, accept that and use that failure as an opportunity to learn something and try to, you know, do something big. So I always try to set a goal and then, you know, I try my best to remain content as well. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:12:28]: So that these two things have helped me a lot. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:30]: Did you find as you went into either of those degrees, did you find that you had to change the way in which you either learned change the way in which you approached your work that helped you to find success? Dr. Khalid Malik [00:12:44]: Absolutely. I mean you can imagine that going into some, some place where you cannot understand a single word. On day one, because I never studied Japanese before entering into the Japan, I take a six month of intensive Japanese classes to learn the Japanese. At same time I, I was lucky that professor allowed me to sit in the lab because I was curious more on doing research than language or want to do both in parallel. So it was first six months was very difficult. But what I learned from my Japanese friends, science particularly lab mate, that in this country you have to be super agile, Even you are 100 year old. I said what does that mean? I mean when we are above 70 or 80, how we can be agile. And this is, this is how this society work. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:13:27]: So one of the my lab mate who was in 70s by the way, he was doing PhD, he was in 17, he was the director of Japan Railway. So he gave me this advice that you need to be super agile. And I said to him what do you mean? He said look, this professor are also going to expect. He's asking you do your research, but he's asking you to put him in as a Hitachi project. So if you will be only focusing on one thing and not another and you are not agile, you will not be successful in this society. You will get your pit. So there were a lot of challenge, but again I was good listener so I tried to be super agile. I was working with Hitachi to learn it and that later on helped me to give a job in Panasonic. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:14:03]: Soon I finished my PhD and then I went for a consultancy as well for one or two years before moving here. So agility has helped me a lot. Definitely there were A lot of challenges, language barrier, culture barriers. But with the help of my colleagues and my, this trait of being a good listener and pushing myself, I was able to navigate those challenges. And even today I feel like doing a PhD in Japan was not a bad idea at all because I learned the language, I learned the culture, and I learned a lot of the good habits that even I have right now that those, those things help me to be more productive. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:41]: Now, as you think about that. And I know you now are a professor and you've been, you've gone, you've worked at other institutions and you're, you're a professor here at the University of Michigan Flint as well. And you work with graduate students that are on their own journeys. Talk to me about what you have to do as you are trying to help your students to find that success that you found in your own journey. And what are some of the things that you tell to your students as they're starting their graduate journey? Dr. Khalid Malik [00:15:11]: I focus on two things a lot. First of all, again, I have the biggest lab. Probably 80% of PhD students of U of M Flint belongs to my lab. Three postdocs, I'm having a very big lab. I told them two things and even when I bring them, I test these two. Number one, what about their fundamental, are they really good in the fundamental of the research that they want to do? And second thing is, are they truly interested in interdisciplinary research or not? Right. So for example, in our lab there are three very big projects. One of the project is we are applying the AI on the brain diseases. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:15:45]: So I tell students, if you are not willing to study the vascular system of the brain, you should not be participating in it. It's not that, you know, we are just doing this project for sake of getting something done. It's truly interdisciplinary. It has aspect of the mechanical engineering, it has aspect of the neurosurgery, it has aspect of the computer science and AI and it has the impact of aspect of the biology. My job is as a professor to lay down the surface that is very interdisciplinary in nature. So you guys can play for long time because you can look from very different angles and it will help you to publish sooner. But if you will look into vertically only, it's not truly interdisciplinary or multi disciplinary project, your chances of publication will be lower. And more importantly, yes, you will be maybe very successful or you will be expert in a certain field, but you will be very difficult to become a leader in industry even if you're going in academia. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:16:47]: I take my own example. I was Able to have a startup. Right? Right. Many people are unable to do that because you can then link, okay, how to apply this research into another discipline. So therefore, the pageant for interdisciplinary research is very important. And before that, you should have a strong fundamentals. If you are relying on the crutches of AI to do a strong research, I doubt that those students will be successful. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:13]: Now, I know that as you go into a new institution, as you're a new student, there definitely is some deference that you have towards your faculty members. It's a little scary for a new graduate student as they're entering into a new environment in trying to build those relationships with faculty members. You've been there, you've had to do that yourself as your own, as a student yourself. Now you are a faculty member. What would you say to new graduate students as they are trying to build those strong relationships with their faculty members? And how would you encourage them to move forward in building those? Dr. Khalid Malik [00:17:48]: I always advise students. Number one, if you are not getting response immediately from faculty member, don't give up, up. Number two, everyone appreciate a good research, no matter how busy they are. Many people think that having a startup, I have this big lab with three postdoc and you know, six PhD students on. But I listen to everyone. But there is a different way of listening. I don't have a time to sit with them. I say, let's walk together and have a discussion. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:18:14]: And those students I who are very passionate and they are willing to learn, even they are not very strong compared to many of the students who are working in lab and who are, for example, paid 50% effort or some of them 60%. I asked those students that come not only talk to me, talk to these postdoc and PhD students as well, be observer. So it's very important that you should not hesitate to speak with the people. You should show your passion. Yes. Sometime people like myself, like, you know, this person cannot do a lot of research. But we always give opportunities to those who have a passion of learning. So if students are shy, why and they are not expressing themselves that they want to learn, they will not be able to get opportunities. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:18:59]: So that's my first advice that I was successful. Believe me, I did half of my thesis going in escalator and elevators with the one professor who was very famous and he was not having a time. I always used to tell him, I will tell you what I did in a week when you are going from his company to 10th or 11th floor where there was institute for teaching as well. So getting someone's time. Expressing your opinion and passion is very important and all graduate students, particularly international students, should be doing this. That's a very important thing. Second thing I always tell students, look, we have a limited opportunities. Everyone wants to get a gsrs. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:19:40]: I tell students, prove yourself in a class. We don't have any litmus paper to say you will do best or not. So when we are assigning your project in the class, if you'll do best, believe me, I will approach you. You need not to come to me. If you are interested in going someone's lab, take the class of professor and do really well in the projects. So this is a second bit of the piece that I can give to my graduate student. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:02]: That's a great piece of advice and one that I continuously am trying to give to students as I do different webinars and have different opportunities to be able to talk to students. Because what I try to tell students is if you are not able to get a graduate assistantship right from the get go, when you're in class, your faculty members are going to have opportunities for you and they're going to ask people for their help, they're going to ask for volunteers and if your hand is the first one up, up every time, they're going to remember you. So when there are opportunities that do exist, who are they going to come to? And so that does bring up some different things in my mind in regards to as you think back to your own graduate experiences and you think back to the opportunities that you took advantage of, maybe they weren't the ones that you thought you were going to do. Talk to me a little bit about that and how doing just that by putting your hand up, by saying pick me, yes, I'm there. How did that open up other doors for you? Dr. Khalid Malik [00:20:59]: I will relate this with again one of my examples. So one of my experience in the Japan for one or two years I was struggling to understand the direction that my professor want me to pursue because I'm very hesitantly saying hopefully he is not going to listen to this interview. So I was having a firm opinion that my ideas are better than my professor ideas. And I was talking constantly to my colleagues and postdoc that look, what professor is saying to me me is not making much sense. I have much better ideas. And one of my colleague who's from China, he says then improve your ability to communicate. I said well, I can't speak a fluent Japanese, I don't know how to do it. He said that's not truly a barrier. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:21:41]: I said, then what do you mean by that? He's like, look, when you present it, you have a one guy who is half Japanese, half Australian, and he is a big supporter of your research. Why don't you present together? So communication is the key. It took me two years. It was the just the way of presenting to someone. That guy. I again is highly appreciative of that guy who is now very successful. He has a big company. Other day I saw he has more than 700 employees. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:22:10]: So he helped me a lot how to communicate to the people from the different cultures, right? And particularly my ideas were better understood by my professor. So to answer your questions knows it's very important that you know, you understand other people's point of view and try to communicate your thoughts in a way and work with those people rather than always thinking that you are superior to other people or you are inferior to other people. I took this opportunity, I was not shy or some of my other colleagues says, oh, when you will present with his name as Hama, you know, Professor Will Tungi. It's his idea. So in the start I said in my broken Japanese that professor, these are my ideas. I was trying to communicate it. But today you have to listen to both of us. And then similarly, when the opportunity came in to work in Panasonic, right. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:22:57]: I was initially hesitant. Is my Japanese skill enough to work in industry? I only know how to purchase a ticket, how to buy the food, and how to communicate with my colleagues in industry how is things are going to work. And I talked to a couple of other professors and I went to international office in my university and those people says, you can just give a shot. Why don't you go and give a presentation? So wherever I presented it, it initially it felt like very challenging. But you know, end of day, someone has to get to that position. We have to go with that mindset and we should keep on trying. And that's why I kept on trying. And even the society where, you know, I was not a native speaker, actually I'm not a native speaker. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:23:41]: Essentially my, my Japanese Skill was not JLPT level 3 or 4, which wasn't needed in industry. But I was successful because I was telling them what values I can bring in on, on the, on the project. So it' I agree with you. It's very essential that, you know, we should raise your hand and we should tell people what value we can bring in. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:01]: You've given a lot of pieces of advice today. You've talked about your own experience and as you think back to your Own graduate school experience. And you think about students that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be cybersecurity, business, health or some other area. What are some tips that you might offer them, these individuals that are thinking about graduate school that would help them find success soon sooner. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:24:22]: I think first of all we should look into how our societies are going to evolve in future. For example, these days AI is going to play a crucial role, right? So many people are afraid that you know what? Why should I go into the cyber security education? I'm giving a one example of cybersecurity. Same is true about computer science these days as well that when AIs particularly say the anthropic models are going to write all the code, how are we going to find the jobs? A lot of people have this question and this is a very valid question. Many top schools, including ucla, Ann Arbor campus, their number of application in computer science are decreasing mainly because of one concern. But the question that we should really have, particularly as a new graduate student is how are we going to work with AI? Rather than thinking that AI is going to replace us or we are going to replace AI, right? That's a fundamental. All of us, I mean when writing proposal lecture, we are interacting with AI. Students have to learn that know first of all what are the strength of AI and what are the limitations of AI? Because I see a lot of students who think AI is more powerful than the student themselves, right? That's not true. They have to understand where AI struggles too. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:25:33]: So that's a number one piece because I don't see a future of work without the AI. So even if you are going in any program, you must be learning little bit of AI and understand how you can leverage your current work, your current projects and future work with AI. That's number one a suggestion I have for a student. Number two is think what AI cannot do and interdisciplinary stuff AI is not good at so far I'll give example because if I'll not give example, those of your listener was saying they may not understand. There is a aspect called cyber physical systems where. Where for example we are riding AI for robot or a car and so on, right? Wherever there is an interaction of the hardware, human is needed. So those fields, highly interdisciplinary field where AI is going to play a partial role role. Look at those fields and they are tremendous. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:26:27]: Number third tip that I will tell students. Don't be afraid that AI will replace you. AI is going to take you to the next level. All of us are working up to midnight and getting up early morning. Our work is not going to finish. And if you ask me what you want to do in 2023, I will tell you there were tens of things that I couldn't accomplish it. So with the power of AI, we are going to achieve much bigger goals than what you know we aspire now. So instead of take accepting this as a challenge, take AI as your companion, but understand its weakness and try to involve yourself in interdisciplinary field where AI has lot of limitations. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:27:06]: This is a question that is coming again and again. Really. Students from all disciplines come to me and ask this question, so I thought I should answer you indirectly as well. Those who didn't interact with me, they will also learn about my opinion. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:18]: Well Dr. Malik, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for being here today, for sharing your own journey and I truly wish you all the best. Dr. Khalid Malik [00:27:25]: Thank you so much Chris for the opportunity. I'm looking forward to talk to some other times as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:30]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgrad officemflint. Eduardo.

Are you contemplating a return to graduate school, or perhaps already in the thick of balancing higher education with work and family commitments? The latest episode of Victors in Grad School dives into the inspiring journey of Keith Poniers, Vice President and Chief Financial Officer at Hurley Medical Center, as he recounts what it truly takes to thrive in graduate school after years away from academia. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan-Flint, this episode offers an honest, firsthand account of re-entering higher education more than two decades after earning an undergraduate degree. Keith Poniers reflects that it had been 26 years since he stepped into a classroom, and details how evolving career ambitions and executive opportunities motivated him to pursue an MBA (02:25). He candidly discusses the challenge of shaking off "school mode" and stepping into a new academic environment surrounded by both younger students and peers from diverse backgrounds (05:03). A primary theme throughout the episode is the importance of resilience and adaptability. Keith Poniers openly shares the nerves that came with his first orientation, the adjustment to working alongside younger classmates, and the rapid pivot to online learning brought about by the pandemic (09:04). He credits supportive professors and a strong personal support system—including his wife—for helping him maintain balance and motivation during challenging times (07:28). Sacrificing leisure activities, managing work stress, and dedicating ample time to study were keys to his success, alongside the drive to meet his own high standards (08:37). Listeners will find actionable advice woven throughout, especially for professionals considering graduate school. Keith Poniers emphasizes finding a program that fits your personal circumstances, preparing for a demanding time commitment, and being ready for collaborative, group-based learning environments (13:15). The episode is rich in reminders about the personal and professional rewards of graduate education, the value of maintaining motivation, and the necessity of adapting to new formats like online learning. If you're seeking relatable insights and practical encouragement on the road to an advanced degree, this episode is a must-listen. Tune in to hear Keith Poniers and Dr. Christopher Lewis explore the realities of balancing life, career, and education—proving that it's never too late to become a victor in grad school. Ready to take the next step? Listen to the full episode and let their stories inspire your graduate journey! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week we are on a journey together. This is a great opportunity for us to be able to take a look at this journey that you've decided to explore or maybe that you're already on. Graduate school is definitely a journey. And no matter if you're just starting off, you're just starting to think about things, maybe you have applied, maybe you've been accepted, maybe you're in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:44]: No matter where you are, this is a journey and it's leading you down that. That proverbial path toward the light at the end of the tunnel. And every week, I love to be able to talk to you, to work with you, to help you, to provide you with some tools for your toolbox, to give you some sense of how can you find success in this journey that you're on. That's why every week, I truly enjoy being able to introduce you to new people with different experiences that can share the graduate journey that they went on. With you this week, we got another great guest. Keith Ponyers is with us today. And Keith is the vice president and chief financial officer at Hurley Medical center. And I am really excited to be able to have him here to talk to you about his own journey in education and to welcome him to the show. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:31]: Keith, thank you so much for being here today. Keith Poniers [00:01:33]: Thank you. Thank you very much. I appreciate the time and look forward to sharing my experience. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:38]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here, and I always love to start these conversations with a turn back in time. So I know that you did your undergraduate work at Indiana University and you went through that experience, you got your bachelor's degree in accounting, and then you went off, you went off, you worked, and you got a lot of different experiences in different types of companies in you. At some point along the way, I'm going to say, quite a ways down the path, you made a decision to go back to school. Take me back to that point in time. And what made you decide that that was the time, that was the time that you wanted to start that graduate education journey for yourself? Keith Poniers [00:02:25]: Sure. So as you said, it was 26 years between the time I left. Graduated from Indiana way back in 93 until, you know, stepping foot on U of M. Flint's campus in the fall of 2019. What got me to that point over those 26 years in my various jobs, I never thought there was a need for an MBA through the different companies that I worked for. It really wasn't required, that kind of thing. But I got an opportunity to come work at Hurley here in Flint. And I'm a Genesee county born and raised. Keith Poniers [00:03:03]: Other than my four years at Indiana University, I've either lived or worked here in Genesee County. So coming to work at Hurley was a great opportunity for me. Really love the Flint community and like I said, it's always been a part of my life. But I had an opportunity to come here at Hurley as working in the finance department, and then after a couple of years had another opportunity here at Hurley, and the current CFO was retiring. And they approached me of saying, if you're interested in, you know, stepping up into that role, a master's, an MBA would really go a long way to being you, to become a serious candidate. Nothing's ever guaranteed. But again, if you want that opportunity, certain things to get to that executive level, you do need a master's or B, a cpa, those kind of things. So that got me thinking, okay, where am I at? I was comfortable in my life, wife, daughter, grandkids. Keith Poniers [00:03:56]: But if I wanted to take that next step in my life and further my career, it was something that needed to be done. So I did some research. Different education opportunities. There's obviously there were online MBAs that you could get. I looked at different ones around the state. But I was attracted to U of M Flint 1, being here right down the road from where I was currently working, great, you know, reputation. So that kind of was the avenue that led me to apply to U of M Flint and their MBA program. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:27]: Now you just said that it was about 26 years between when you last left education to when you came back and you kind of get out of the mode of being in school mode, I'm going to say. So talk to me about that transition for yourself. Everybody goes through those transitions. And you had transitioned out of higher ed quite a ways in the past, and then you came back after many years in working. So what did you have to do for yourself to be able to transition back into school and find success as you transitioned in? And what did you have to do as you were going through that graduate education to be able to maintain that success? Keith Poniers [00:05:03]: It was a huge transition for me. Again, like you said, 26 years is a long time. I still to this day, you know, all these years later, remember going to the orientation, you know, at the School of Management building down the street here, and being very nervous. I'm walking into a room full of people. They're professional people mostly. There are some that just continue right from undergrad into the MBA program. But I was for sure one of the older people in that room having that gap. So it was a challenge to become comfortable in that setting. Keith Poniers [00:05:35]: You start working with, meeting people a lot younger than you in all different professions. So definitely a challenge. I think I just needed to reset my mind that, okay, this is a new chapter of my life. I drew back on some of those experiences from Indiana. When I went to Indiana, I was the only one from my school to go there. So it was a new experience. So it was kind of like deja vu all over again. Stepping into a new world, not knowing anyone, you know, just like I did when I was a freshman at that point, 30 years ago, from when I started as a freshman at Indiana, to quote, being a freshman in the new world of education, too, that was the other thing that was. Keith Poniers [00:06:15]: It was when I went to Indiana, I took an electric typewriter with me. You know, it was, now I've come into college with a high tech laptop. So just kind of, like I said, just going back and understanding I can be successful in this new world of education. And it really took, you know, that first couple classes to really become comfortable and say, okay, look, I can fit in. And the professors there were great. My first class was in person with Dr. Lawrence, negotiation class. He made us all feel really comfortable. Keith Poniers [00:06:47]: He was still, I would say, that's my favorite class of my mba. I draw on the experiences from that class and the lessons learned from Dr. Lawrence in the negotiation. I still have books from his class and a few others on my bookshelf behind me. But it really, again, the professors made it really comfortable for myself, being a little older, to fit in with the younger crowd and worked well with each other there. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:12]: Now you were working full time while you were going through school, so you had to do some balancing along the way. Talk to me about balance and how were you able to find that balance for yourself as you were trying to wear the many hats that you had to wear while you were going through a graduate program. Keith Poniers [00:07:28]: Sure. I give a lot of credit to my wife. She was very supportive. The job at that point, I was controller at Hurley, you know, working my way, hopefully being to be considered for the. The CFO role. So. But it was a very challenging job, stressful as well. So Then you throw college classes on top of it and all the time commitments. Keith Poniers [00:07:48]: So again, like I said, a lot of thanks, kudos to my wife for allowing me to kind of step back from our marriage. And you have to have that kind of give and take with whoever you're living with, your partnering with, whoever that they understand and they are supportive because it is an impact on your life. I kind of had to give up some of my other extracurricular activities I love to golf. I had to cut back and golf, fantasy football, fantasy baseball, those other things I had to scale back a little bit on. But ultimately you understand that there's a goal while you are doing this. And so you sacrifice a little bit to reach that goal. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:23]: You do have to do some of that. You do have to sacrifice at times. And you have to find ways to keep yourself motivated because it can be challenging along the way. How did you stay motivated through challenging semesters or coursework? Keith Poniers [00:08:37]: I hold myself to a very high standard. So for me, the motivation was doing the best I can, getting the best grade throughout. Like, I started in the fall of 2019. So my second semester was 2020, which is obviously Covid hit. So that was its own challenge in itself. Stepping back in the classroom after 26 years, thinking everything was going to be in person, and then all of a sudden Covid hits and the whole world changed. And so that really continued to make me be focused on, okay, I got to pay attention because now everything is online. It was kind of a different world that I'm used to in person meetings, talking face to face with people. Keith Poniers [00:09:20]: Now everything flipped to virtual meetings, virtual classes. That was a whole new learning experience in itself. But again, my drive to be successful, and I knew I needed to be successful if I wanted to reach the ultimate goal of being considered for a higher executive level here at the hospital, that was really important to me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:41]: Now, you said you, it sounded like you looked at only MBA programs because that was the path that you were looking at. And as you look back now, it's been a couple of years since you got that degree. And you think back now to the things that you're still pulling from. If you had to do it all over again, would you choose the same program or path? Why or why not? Keith Poniers [00:09:59]: I would absolutely choose the same program. Again, the convenience of being local here in the community was a big selling point to me. Again, at that point, I thought I would be more successful with an in person type of learning because that's what I was used to way back in the day. Obviously didn't know I was going to completely flip to an online class. I only had the first semester and then about two or three months of the second semester was actual in person before going to online. So in hindsight, knowing how more convenient online classes is, I may have considered something a little different. But again, that was kind of, that was what I was used to, so that's why I chose it. But even now, understanding, you know, the online presence, I think, you know, U of M. Keith Poniers [00:10:46]: Flint did a great job making that transition. It was quick, seamless, really. No issues with the technology or anything like that. So I think knowing the university has those resources available that they can quickly, you know, pivot as well, they made it very easy transition as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:04]: And I know earlier you mentioned Dr. Lawrence's class, but. And you think, as you think about the courses that you went through, how did graduate school change the way you think or approach problems? Keith Poniers [00:11:14]: I mean, there were a handful of classes that I continue to draw back on. Organizational behavior was one. Again, one of my first classes. But as I stepped into more leadership roles throughout my career, being able to read, people understand you can't treat everyone the same. Everyone is different. You know, those, those kind of lessons were and I felt like repeated in a lot of the classes. But sometimes you just need that drip, drip, drip to. To hear message over and over again. Keith Poniers [00:11:43]: You know, you have to be open. You have to be, you know, look at things differently through different lenses, whether it's just dealing with people or other ideas kind of thing. So that's something I continue to draw on throughout my career since I've graduated as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:58]: What's something that you wish that someone had told you before you started graduate school? Keith Poniers [00:12:02]: It required a little more time commitment than I expected. Again, I thank my wife and my family for being supportive. And you think, okay, I got all these life experiences, I should be able to handle it. But I'm also one that I like to be prepared. So I probably spent more time studying, reading, making sure, you know, I did everything on the syllabus so I could be successful. So again, just be prepared to spend and dedicate that time necessary if you want to be successful. You have to put in the time. So my one negative of the whole thing at the whole experience was the one A minus. Keith Poniers [00:12:40]: I got in one class that cost me a 4.0 GPA. And I think I go back to I prob. Probably didn't spend enough time preparing for that one exam in that class that I didn't do as well as I should have been. And I still kind of kick myself for not getting that perfect 4.0 class or GPA throughout my two years there. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:59]: Now, as you think back to your graduate education and you think of others that are thinking about going to graduate school, whether it be in business or the health field or something else, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner? Keith Poniers [00:13:15]: I think you got to find the right environment for you to be successful again. Understand that there will be impact to your personal life, especially if you're working. If you're going to be working and doing this, gotta make sure your job understands okay. You know, you're gonna have some other commitments you may have to take some time off for. For certain things that just getting your mind right, that's going to impact your current life and your work life balance. You need to be prepared to adjust and pivot accordingly because if you want to be, you have to dedicate the time to it. You can't just skirt by. Sometimes I think people in high school, they can, okay, you just got to do the work. Keith Poniers [00:13:57]: You can get by through in high school. When you get to college, you have to step up a little more. I think the MBA program, at least from my experience, and again I'm comparing to my undergrad a long time ago, but there was a lot more interaction, group work, those kind of things which I found really, I appreciated that back in my day, you know, we didn't do as many group projects even at Indiana, but in this program, program every class had group work. You're doing online comments, chats, working on projects. So it goes back to if you're going to be successful, you have to be willing to work with other people. You have to be tolerant to that. Not everyone is going to have the same work ethic as you. So you have to accept that they might just be along for the ride while you're striving to further your career. Keith Poniers [00:14:45]: You have to either one, call them out for that. Don't be bashful if somebody's not putting in the work. You got to call them out and make sure, hey, migrate on what you do as well on those group projects. That's another thing where I would encourage, don't be afraid to step up and say something as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:01]: Well, Keith, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today and I truly wish you all the best. Keith Poniers [00:15:06]: Thank you very much. I appreciate the time. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:08]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgrad officemflint. Eduardo.

If you're applying to graduate school, you've probably reached the part of the application that feels surprisingly stressful: Letters of recommendation. Not because you don't know anyone—most applicants do. But because the requirements often sound like they were written for one very specific kind of student: someone who graduated recently someone who still has professors who remember them someone currently working in an academic environment someone who has research experience and faculty mentors And if your path looks different than that—if you've been working full-time, changed careers, raised a family, served in the military, or simply graduated a while ago—you might be wondering: "Can my letters of recommendation come from outside of academia?" In other words: Can my supervisor write one? What about a colleague? A nonprofit director I volunteered with? A clinical supervisor? A mentor in my profession? If you've asked these questions, you're thinking smartly—and you're not alone. So today, I'm going to answer this clearly and thoroughly, from the perspective of someone who works in graduate admissions and supports applicants every day. By the end, you'll know: when non-academic letters are acceptable (and even preferred) who makes the strongest recommender outside academia when you should prioritize academic references how to choose recommenders strategically and how to request letters that actually help your application Let's jump in. The short answer: Yes—often they can In many cases, yes. Graduate programs understand that applicants come from diverse paths, and many strong graduate students are: professionals returning to school career changers adult learners military-connected students first-generation students parents or caregivers applicants who have been away from academia for several years And those applicants may not have recent professors who can write meaningful, detailed letters. Here's the important detail, though: The best recommendation letters are not about where the recommender works. They are about what the recommender can say about you. A strong letter—academic or professional—does the same job: it shows evidence of your readiness it highlights strengths that match graduate-level expectations it provides examples of how you work, learn, and contribute Why graduate programs ask for recommendation letters It helps to understand what these letters are supposed to accomplish. Graduate programs use letters of recommendation to answer questions like: Can this applicant succeed in graduate-level work? Are they dependable and responsible? Can they write, think, communicate, and problem-solve at a high level? Do they have the maturity for advanced study? Will they contribute positively to the program community? A good letter gives the committee a perspective they can't get from: grades resumes personal statements or test scores Recommendation letters are third-party credibility. They confirm that your application isn't just well-written—it's true. When letters from outside academia are absolutely appropriate Many graduate programs accept professional references without hesitation, especially when the applicant has been out of school for a while. Professional letters are often ideal if: you graduated more than 3 to 5 years ago you're applying to a professional or practice-based program you've gained substantial work experience in a relevant field your work responsibilities demonstrate advanced skills you have supervisors who can speak to your performance Examples of programs where professional letters are often strong: MBA and business programs education leadership programs social work counseling and clinical programs public health nursing and healthcare programs nonprofit management information technology, cybersecurity, and applied STEM fields MPA and public administration For these programs, real-world performance matters—and professional references can be incredibly persuasive. When academic letters are strongly preferred Now, there are some circumstances where academic letters are still the best choice. Programs often prefer academic references when: you are applying to a research-heavy graduate program you are applying to a PhD or thesis-based master's program the program requires evidence of academic writing and research skill you are applying directly from undergrad or have recent coursework the program explicitly states faculty references are required In these cases, the program wants letters that can specifically address: academic writing intellectual curiosity research potential critical thinking classroom contribution scholarly habits Academic letters can be hard to replace when the program is evaluating research readiness. The real key: choose recommenders who can provide specific examples Here's something I tell applicants all the time: A letter from a famous person who barely knows you is weak. A letter from a direct supervisor who truly knows your work is strong. Admissions committees care about detail. Strong letters include: how long the person has known you what role they worked with you in specific examples of your performance specific strengths connected to graduate work clear recommendation language Weak letters are vague and generic, filled with phrases like: "hard-working" "nice" "great attitude" "good communicator" Those aren't bad traits—but they don't prove readiness for graduate-level success. Who should I ask for a letter if I'm using non-academic references? Here are the best choices outside academia: direct supervisor or manager clinical supervisor or preceptor department lead who has evaluated your work project leader you reported to nonprofit executive you worked closely with internship supervisor mentor who oversaw your professional development When possible, choose someone who can speak to: how you learn how you handle complex tasks how you communicate professionally how you lead or collaborate how you manage responsibility Those are graduate success indicators. Who to avoid asking (if possible) Sometimes applicants choose recommenders based on title rather than content. Try to avoid: family friends or personal acquaintances religious leaders who only know you socially elected officials who met you once coworkers who don't supervise or evaluate you people who only know you casually These letters are often too general and don't carry the kind of credibility programs need. A practical recommendation: a "balanced set" often works best If the program requires 3 letters, one great strategy is balance. Examples of strong combinations: For a professional master's applicant: 2 professional references 1 academic reference if available For a recent graduate: 2 academic references 1 professional or internship supervisor For a research or doctoral applicant: 2 academic references (ideally research-related) 1 professional or academic reference with strong writing/research insight If you are applying to multiple programs, adjust your letter mix depending on each program's expectations. What if I don't have any academic references? This is very common. If you don't have academic recommenders, here's what to do. choose professional recommenders who can speak to writing, analysis, and learning select recommenders who have evaluated your work formally use your statement of purpose to reinforce academic readiness consider taking one course before applying to build an academic reference That last one can be powerful. Even one graduate-level course or professional certification program can give you a current instructor who can write a meaningful academic letter. How to ask for a letter that actually helps you The best letters happen when you support your recommender. When you request a letter, provide: the program name and degree the deadline the submission process your resume or CV your draft statement of purpose 3 bullet points of what you hope they can emphasize a reminder of projects or accomplishments you worked on together This makes it easier for them to write a detailed letter. And detailed letters matter. What should the letter highlight for graduate admissions? Here are graduate-level qualities that recommenders can address: intellectual curiosity and ability to learn quickly strong writing and communication analytical thinking and problem-solving reliability and follow-through leadership and collaboration professionalism and integrity ability to handle feedback and grow time management and workload readiness If your recommender can provide examples in even 2 to 3 of these areas, you are in strong shape. Quick checklist: Are my non-academic letters acceptable? Ask yourself: does the program allow professional letters? have I been away from school for several years? can my recommender speak to my skills with specific examples? does the recommender know my work well? do my letters support my program goals and readiness? If yes, you're good. Final encouragement Let me close with this. Graduate programs want strong students. And strong students come from many paths. If your best recommenders are outside academia, that does not weaken your application. In fact, for many programs—especially professional programs—letters from supervisors and workplace mentors can be some of the strongest letters we read. The key is not academic or non-academic. The key is: credibility specific examples and clear evidence you are ready for graduate-level work Choose recommenders who know you well, can speak in detail, and genuinely want to support your next step. That is what makes a recommendation letter powerful.

Embarking on the journey of graduate school can feel both exhilarating and overwhelming. On this week's episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Marissa Charles, a current student in the Nurse Anesthetist (CRNA) program at the University of Michigan Flint, to explore the heart, grit, and strategies needed to thrive in grad school. Marissa Charles shares a story that many prospective students will find deeply relatable. After completing her Bachelor's in Nursing and working for several years—including through the COVID-19 pandemic—she initially dismissed the idea of returning to school. "I always said I'd never be smart enough to be a CRNA," Marissa admits, pointing to the self-doubt that can plague even high-achievers. Her journey is a powerful testament to the idea that growth comes not just from academic readiness, but personal readiness. Sometimes, it's about timing and gaining confidence in oneself, rather than inherent capability. A central theme throughout the episode is the importance of mentorship and community. Marissa credits much of her success to the robust support network within her program. From the moment students are accepted, they're paired with mentors who guide them not just academically, but through the personal transitions essential to thriving in an intensive program. Extra-curricular opportunities, like mixers with students from other universities, further broaden the sense of camaraderie. Grad school is no easy path. Marissa emphasizes the necessity of balance, self-advocacy, and strong communication. She reflects on strategies for managing bumps in the road—whether it's an unexpected personal crisis or the all-too-familiar imposter syndrome. Her advice is universal: don't be afraid to reach out for help, and remember that setbacks are a normal part of the journey. Faculty, family, and peers are eager to support—you just have to take the first step. Whether you are considering grad school, in the midst of a program, or mentoring others, this episode offers inspiration and practical advice. Marissa's narrative proves that with determination, support, and clear priorities, pursuing an advanced degree is not only possible, but rewarding. Ready to find encouragement and actionable tips on your own grad school path? Tune in to this episode of "Victors in Grad School" and join a community invested in your success. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. So excited to have you back again this week. As always, we are on a journey together. I say it's a journey, and I know every week I say this, but it is so true that you are on a journey. You've made a decision. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:32]: Whether you are just the very beginning and you're just starting to think about graduate school, or maybe you've applied, maybe you've gotten accepted, maybe you're in a graduate program. No matter where you are, this is a journey from start to end of that graduate degree, and there are things that you can do right now, today, to be able to find success sooner. And that's what this podcast is all about. I love meeting with you every week to be able to provide you some things to think about, some perspectives, some thoughts, and especially to bring you others that have gone before you that are either in graduate school now, they've gone to graduate school in the past, and they are excited to be able to share their own journey with you so that you can learn from it and maybe repeat some things, maybe not repeat some things, to be able to help you to make your journey as smooth as it can be. Today we got another great guest. Marissa Charles is with us, and Marissa is a student within the Nurse Anesthetist program at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to be able to talk to her and to learn more about her journey in and through graduate school. Marissa, thanks so much for being here today. Marissa Charles [00:01:45]: Thank you, it is my sincere pleasure. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:47]: I am really excited to be able to have you here today, and I think first and foremost, I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint. You got a bachelor's degree in nursing at the University of Michigan Flint, and then you went off, you went off, you worked and started in your career, and at some point you made the decision for that you wanted to continue that education. Bring me back to that point, that point in your life where you said, "It's time." Why was it the time to make that jump? And what made you decide to go all in? Marissa Charles [00:02:21]: 100%. So I graduated December of 2020, definitely a crazy time in the world. I became a nurse. I started working. I never said, "Go back to school, Dr. Lewis." I said I'd never go back. My bachelor's degree was enough. There's no way I'm doing it again. Marissa Charles [00:02:37]: I graduated when I was 23, so I was working for a few years and I always said I'd never be smart enough to be a CRNA. And looking back at that is like, it makes me laugh because it shows just how you grow as a person truly through life. Because here I am, it's 2026 now. Um, in 2023, I finally made that decision where, hold on, it's not that I wasn't smart enough, it just was that I wasn't ready. I was a new nurse. I was coming outta nursing school, COVID was happening. We were seeing the sickest patients ever during that time. It was scary. Marissa Charles [00:03:14]: And it's not that it wasn't smart enough, I just wasn't ready. So 3 years or 2, 2 and a half years into my nursing experience, I was looking around and I just felt as though I'm missing something, like something— I wanna do more. I want to advance my education. I feel as though I'm at a point in my clinical experience where I have truly become a clinician that was an expert within my critical care standards. So in 2023, I was like, I think it's time. I don't know what I wanna do yet, but it's something. And that's when I started looking at graduate programs around the state of Michigan, what was out there for nurses. There's a lot of different paths you can take. Marissa Charles [00:03:59]: You can become a nurse practitioner. There is— perfusion, there's PAs, there's a lot you can do in graduate programs right now. And CRNA, I still felt like I wasn't smart enough for. So it took me about another year. In 2024 is when I finally was like, why not bite the bullet? Why not go for the hard road of what this program is? Because with a hard road comes a lot of feeling super good about yourself and confident and getting the most out of your education. So I decided in 2024 that I would start applying. And this process takes a long time. It's 2020, I started fall of 2025. Marissa Charles [00:04:41]: So it does take a little bit of time to go from deciding you want to go back to school, getting your application in, getting an acceptance and starting. But here we are, you know, 2 years, January of '24 to January— February of 2026 to being in it. So that's a little bit of my story. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:59]: And I, I've said that you are in the University of Michigan Flint's nurse anesthetist program, the CRNA program. Marissa Charles [00:05:07]: CRNA program. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:08]: And as you said, you did some research, you looked around, and I know that there are other CRNA programs in the state of Michigan that you could have chosen, and outside of the state of Michigan as well. So talk to me about that and what made you decide to not only apply to the CRNA program at the University of Michigan Flint, but also that once you got that acceptance, that, that was the program that was right for you. Marissa Charles [00:05:33]: So, uh, there's 5 programs in Michigan, so you have a lot to choose from. And there's so many different reasons that you can look into different programs. Obviously I'm a little biased 'cause I spent my undergraduate program at the University of Michigan Flint. So I looked back and when I was in my undergraduate program, I was working alongside of anesthesia students. They were there with me during my undergrad. So I got to see a little bit of kind of what they did on a semi-day-to-day basis. But it really still wasn't a level playing field because it's been 4 or 5 years since I went to undergrad. I've been kind of all over the state of Michigan, but really the biggest thing that brought me back to Michigan, which is kind of what I love so much about my undergrad program, is truly the relationship that the faculty has with their students and how much importance we put on student-to-student relationships. Marissa Charles [00:06:27]: And I'm gonna mention mentor, mentor, mentor probably a million times in the next 20 minutes that we talk, but our program, even before you start, they offer webinars, open houses, opportunities for you to meet the faculty to get an idea of who they are because you're applying to be in the program. It's just as much backwards. They want the best of the best to be in a program. And so it's just as much as me choosing them as it is they're choosing us. So I really, really love that about our program is the relationships that we build and then just how much importance we put on building relationships, mentorships, and then wellness is super huge. So after literally you got your acceptance letter, and then right before we start the program, they pair you up with a mentor and start building that relationship on how can we help you get through this next 3 years. And here's this person that's doing the same thing you're doing, but they're a little bit ahead of you, so they have a little bit of insight on how to get you through the program, which is super huge for me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:31]: You've been successful. You made that transition in, you're going through the program right now. You're mentoring other students as well and helping other people in the program. So you've been able to find success thus far. But I also know that there is a transition. You went through a nursing degree, but just because you went through a nursing degree as an undergraduate student doesn't mean that the way you're being educated, the, the expectations of the faculty are going to be the same at the graduate level. And usually they're heightened to a much greater degree. So talk to me about that transition for yourself and what did you have to do as you transitioned into graduate school and what have you had to do along the way as you've been going through this graduate program to help you find success? Marissa Charles [00:08:17]: I think half of, like, our student success is a tad bit about our director, is our director has basically taught every single class in our program. So one thing that created such a success for us as a cohort is that the way that our classes are built and the way they're structured is to allow for that transition to happen. And I don't know if there's many other programs that can say that they have faculty that have truly taught everything and have reworked all of these classes to create student success. That first semester, most of us have been out of school for 3, 4, 5 years. And so building a first semester where you're learning how to be a graduate student again, learning how to stop working again, learning how to facilitate your life around being a student, but also you're still a partner or a mother or a dog mom. You're still the person you are outside of school, but being a student is 100% that first semester and what that looks like. So I'd say the biggest thing is providing us with support in that first semester and building a class list that is doable was super big. And then really the biggest thing is I am super crazy about looking ahead really far, just like mentally prepare yourself. Marissa Charles [00:09:35]: Like right now I'm in my second semester and I'm looking at third already. I mean, we just started 5 weeks ago, but in order to be successful as a graduate student, you have to focus on what you're doing right now, but you have to be 3 or 4 steps ahead. So looking at— I'm starting clinicals in April. May, and knowing that I need to start mentally preparing myself for what does clinicals look like? What does creating lunches and being outside of the house a lot more, driving a lot more distances, things like that, to create a better, smoother transition for a student instead of it being very abrupt. So I'd say like, definitely, I love that our faculty have created a streamline of courses that really kind of ramp up just in the perfect amount each semester, but also being a productive student more than you were in your nursing program, where a lot of this is independent. They're not going to tell you exactly what you need to be doing at home and kind of figuring that out for yourself to be successful. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:35]: You also mentioned the fact that it was so important for you to have a mentor and that your program aligned you specifically with a student mentor, but there are also mentorships that you build in regards to the connections with your faculty members as well, and that's important too. So Talk to me about mentorship, and if your program is not offering you the type of formal program that, let's say, that you had in your program, what are some things that you've seen to be able to allow for you to be able to build relationships with others that you might not have been formally connected with before you were in the program? Marissa Charles [00:11:11]: So our program sets you up with a mentor, and we— your mentor kind of chooses you in a way, and you're kind of connected on familiarity. So I was lucky enough to get a mentor that I actually was her trainer as an ICU nurse. I trained her and now it's her opportunity to give it back to me, which is super amazing. And I love that so much. But you're paired up with a mentor before you even start. And we meet them even before we start the program. They throw, uh, orientation meet and greet. And so it's an opportunity for us to say like, hey, like, what can I do before we start? What can I do in that first week of classes when Canvas opens finally? And we're so excited. Marissa Charles [00:11:50]: How can I get ahead? Ahead. So that is super important. And then our faculty are super awesome, and every quarter they set up wellness days, and those wellness days are opportunities for all 3 years, for second and third year students to get together and continue to build those relationships. We have a mentor, but that's just one person, but there's 30 people in each year, so there's the opportunity for 100 of us to get together and, and build faces to names, names to faces, because ultimately we're going to be coworkers or we're gonna follow each other in clinical. We're gonna have opportunities to connect on different scales and being able to see each other, you know, once every quarter is super huge. So that is something that we do that I appreciate. But obviously there's opportunities outside of school that you kind of have to push yourself a little further to be able to make relationships with people while you're in a higher degree. So for example, with the nurse anesthesia programs, or I should say nurse anesthesia There's the Michigan Nurse Anesthetist, um, essentially board. Marissa Charles [00:12:54]: Like everyone has like, as a board across the Michigan and we have MANA and there's MANA for students. And so I just came back last week. They had a meeting with all 5 programs. That's optional. You don't have to go, but why would you not take 4 hours out of a Friday night to go to a mixer of 5 different programs across the state of Michigan to pair up with these different students from different places? Because like I said, we met may end up being coworkers one day, or we may see each other in clinical, and being able to see how different programs are doing it and how are they getting through their 3 years to be successful in the program is super big to me. So going that extra step to doing those optional things that it's not mandatory, but it could otherwise increase your success in finding different things out from different people across all of Michigan. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:48]: And you're in a rigorous program, which is challenging in itself, but you're also a friend, you have family, you've got other hats that you're wearing. So talk to me about balance and how do you find balance in your school, your work, your family, and other personal responsibilities while you've been in graduate school? Marissa Charles [00:14:09]: That is the question of the hour, Dr. Lewis. How do we do it? I think as a nurse, that's something that you inherently know because there's weeks where are tough weeks at work and you have to be able to kind of figure that out. You have to work overtime, or it's the holidays and you're balancing holidays with taking care of your own family. In the graduate program, it's harder in the aspect of you have to say no. You have to be able to know there's a priority. You have an exam on Monday, it's Saturday night, that I can't do that. But there's also Friday night I can, I just have to be responsible with my time. Marissa Charles [00:14:48]: So I think it's definitely very difficult as a graduate student on having to say no and really create a balanced schedule, but I think it really starts before you start. We're super big at Michigan. We do a family meeting and it gives you the opportunity for our director to explain to our family members from her perspective, not ours, cuz we, I mean, we've explained this to our family probably a million times. This is gonna be hard. This is gonna be hard. But she speaks to our family and gives them basically a rundown of what it looks like to be a student and what her expectations of us are and what her expectations of them are. And it kind sets a precedent of it's not just me going through the program, everyone in your household's going through the program. It's just as difficult for those people around you as it is for you. Marissa Charles [00:15:36]: So I think that, um, it does start before you start and kind of setting expectations. And if it ends up being a great semester and you end up doing more things, it's awesome. But knowing that at minimum, this is where I have to study, I have to set aside time. If I'm able to do more, great, but at minimum, this is what we have to do. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:55]: And setting those expectations, I think, are really important, not only for yourself, but also for your family and friends, et cetera. I tell students all the time that having those type of communication meetings, whether they're from a program to family members, it's even more important to have from student to family or friends as well, because you may set parameters at the beginning of a term without realizing or understanding what that term is really gonna be like. And what I try to make sure that any student thinks about is if things change, that's fine, but communicate it out. Because if you've promised to call mom every day of the week and you're only calling once a week, guess who's going to be really concerned when you're not calling? Mom's going to be concerned. So make sure that you're communicating and letting people know. They're not going to be upset with you. They're going to be more happy that you've communicated and that you're keeping them informed because they want to support you. And that's what this is all about, is that the people that have always been a support are going to continue to be your support, but they need to know how to support you through the process. Marissa Charles [00:17:01]: Yep, 100%. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:02]: I know that through the program sometimes there are bumps along the way and there are things that happen that are unexpected, whether it be a bad grade, whether it be a family issue, whether it be whatever. And I know that you even had some of those in your own experience. Talk to me about what you would say to other students that have those bumps in the road and what would recommend for students to do when that does happen? Marissa Charles [00:17:28]: I think the biggest thing, like reflecting back on like those times, is like try— it's so hard in the moment when you feel like your world is crashing and you feel like so overwhelmed— is to like pull yourself out of it for 3 seconds and just like take a breather, relax. Because at the end of the day, the biggest thing about Michigan no matter if it was my undergrad or graduate program, is our faculty are there for you. And I think that it's, it's so funny because she— our director in our fac— CRSS— they say it so many times, and I understand now being on the other side of it and having to go to them why they say it so many times, because it's almost like ingrained into you at that point. So when you are so overwhelmed and you're so frustrated, you're going through something so difficult, it's so inherently easy to just reach out. And I think that, you know, 10, 20 years ago, that was— might not have been a thing. And so it's hard because the hardest thing to do is make the first step to like reach out and ask for help or reach out and say, I don't know what I need, but this is what's going on. And so that to me is like the, the easiest and the hardest thing to do is like take 5 seconds for yourself and just stop and like figure out who you need to talk to and talk to that person because you're not alone. This program, whether it's your support systems at home or your support system within your program, there's always someone someone there to talk to. Marissa Charles [00:18:54]: And I think that that is the hardest thing, is like figuring out how to approach those people that you— they are your directors or your assistant directors, your faculty. They're up here and you're like, oh, I'm just so little, it's just me, like I don't want to bother them. But that's what they're there for, and I think it's so hard to overcome that. But now I understand why it's, it's so drilled into us so many times during our orientation, during any type of clinical, clinical prep workshop, is they just want to help. They're there to help you get through those hard points in life. So I think the hardest thing is, is to actually reach out, but once you do that, everything feels like it falls into place just as quickly as everything kind of blew up. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:35]: And sometimes that will happen. And I'm not sugarcoating it for anyone. When you go through graduate school, life happens. And whether you like it or not, there could be really positive things, there could be things that are negative that may happen, one of the things that I would always tell a student to do is communicate, communicate with your program. Make sure to talk with your program about what is happening because your program wants you to be successful and the director, the staff, the faculty are going to try their best to be able to support you in that moment and to find resources for you in that moment. Sometimes, as Marissa just said, sometimes at that point in time you just can't think straight and you're thinking, I just need to fix I need to go, I need to do this, I need to go, go, go, and you're like, I'm out of here. Take that pause, send that email, pick up the phone, make the call, because if they know upfront there's going to be a lot more that they can do than if you just fall off the radar and are dealing with something that you should be dealing with. But if the program doesn't know that, that could impact you in many different ways. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:43]: So just like I was talking about communicating with family and friends, it's also important to communicate communicate with your faculty, with your director, with staff in the program, and to talk to them about things that are happening because they may or may not know what's happening with you personally. And that's up to you. That's your right. You can keep it to yourself, but the more that you are able to build that relationship, the more that they're gonna step in and be able to support you in the end. Now, one of the things that I'm interested in knowing as well is many students as they're going through— you talked about at the very beginning, always thinking that the CRNA RNA program was not something that you would be able to do because you didn't think you were smart enough. And there are many times when you go through graduate programs and graduate school itself that sometimes that self-doubt, that imposter syndrome, steps in, and it can rear its head in many different ways. Talk to me about how imposter syndrome or self-doubt reared its head for you, and how did you deal with it? Marissa Charles [00:21:44]: We're in a rigorous program. We are in— I there's hundreds of people that apply to this program and ideally they're taking top 10%, 5%, 50%, whoever knows. And so day to day you're taking exams, you're comparing yourself to others. You're like, oh man, why didn't I get, you know, this question right? That person got it right. My grade is this grade, their grade's that— it's so easy to get so wrapped up in the minuscule details and feeling like you need to compare yourself to others. And this last 2 semesters, I'm gonna go back to our director. I love her. She has watched, you know, multiple years of students go through this program. Marissa Charles [00:22:26]: And it feels like right at that time where you feel— we call it the valley of despair, that time where you feel yourself dipping and you're like, feel like you can't see the sun and you can't see when the next good day's coming. She gives us that inspirational message that we need, you know? And it's so— it's so— and she has it down to a science where just when you need that, that bump of inspiration of saying like, you know, you are— you're meant to be here. You are smart enough to be here. I picked you because I knew— I know you can do it. Let me know how I can get you through this because I know you can. It's just getting you the resources or figuring it out, right? It's, it's, it's so funny because I, I genuinely think she's done this and done it so well for so long that she knows just right coming into second semester. Students get so overwhelmed that first, second week that it's so much more material, so much more to do. And that's when we have that time with her to say like, no, you can do it. Marissa Charles [00:23:31]: This is how we're gonna step back to be successful and not try to compare ourselves to others. Be the best person that you can be on your own is super huge because is imposter syndrome. That is the hardest thing to overcome before, during, and after this program. So just being able to kind of like point it out and see the red flags when they're coming is super huge for me. Sitting down, like pausing for a second and saying like, no, like I am doing the best I can. I'm here for a reason. I will be successful is super huge when you're by yourself. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:06]: Now I know that you're currently in graduate school, you're working toward the light at the end of the tunnel. As you you think back to the experience that you've had thus far in your graduate education, and you think of others that are thinking about graduate school, whether it's going into becoming a nurse— a nurse anesthetist, a physical therapist, getting an MBA, whatever it might be— what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner? Marissa Charles [00:24:32]: Put one foot in front of the other. I think that's the hardest part. I think, you know, we're all adults that are applying to graduate school. We all have jobs, we all have things going on, and I think the hardest— for people when they're applying to go back to school isn't necessarily the school. It's all the steps that you have to do to get back to school. It's the long application process. It's getting proof of all your documents. It's putting together records requests. Marissa Charles [00:24:58]: One foot in front of the other, 'cause that's truly the hardest part. Write down that deadline. Make sure that deadline's on a huge sticky. Put reminders in your phone. It's all the little steps that it takes to get to where you wanna go. So that's probably my biggest thing is like, like you can do it. It just takes a lot of little steps to get to where you wanna be. And then I would say probably the second thing is try your hardest to, to build your application or build your process, build your resume to show who you are as a person. Marissa Charles [00:25:29]: I think that's the hardest thing is the biggest question that people ask when they're applying to programs is like, how, how do I, how can I get in? Like, what can I do? And the biggest thing is trying your hardest to show who you are as a person who you are as a nurse, who you are as a student on paper is probably the hardest thing to do because that is all you are when you're compared to hundreds of people. You have to figure out how to display yourself the best that you can, whether that's in your essay or, or in your CV, is try your hardest to build that out to show who you are as a person. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:05]: Well, Marissa, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, and I know it's not over yet, but I'm I'm looking forward to being able to see you cross that stage here in the not too distant future. And I'm really appreciative of all that you said today as well, because as you mentioned, it's not always going to— there are going to be bumps in the road. It's important to have those mentors. And there's so many little pieces that you talked about today that I think are so important for any program and any student thinking about graduate school. So I really appreciate you sharing that, and I wish you all the best. Marissa Charles [00:26:35]: No problem. Thank you, Dr. Lewis. Always. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:37]: The University of Michigan-Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Are you considering taking the next big step in your educational journey? Whether you're just starting to think about graduate school or already knee-deep in your studies, the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" is packed with insights you won't want to miss. In this episode, Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Steven Foster, Director of Financial Aid at the University of Michigan Flint, to discuss what it truly takes to thrive in graduate school. Their lively conversation weaves through Steven's personal journey—from earning his bachelor's in English Language and Literature, jumping straight into the workforce, and then making the pivotal decision to return for his master's in Educational Leadership at Wayne State University. One major theme is the importance of having a clear motivation for pursuing graduate studies. As Steven Foster shares, his return to school was sparked by an early realization that additional credentials would be crucial for career advancement and personal growth. This combination of upward and social mobility, practical experience, and a passion for educational outreach shaped his path and success (02:16). Discipline, curiosity, and organization are highlighted as the bedrock skills for anyone navigating graduate school. Steven Foster emphasizes that being disciplined and staying organized are essential, especially when juggling work and academic responsibilities (06:45). He notes, "Being disciplined, being curious, being open… those skill sets are extremely important in your journey." Another key takeaway is the role of community and support systems. Graduate school can be overwhelming, and imposter syndrome is a common stumbling block. Steven Foster candidly discusses how self-awareness, open communication, and fostering connections with peers and mentors can provide the reassurance and encouragement needed to push through challenging moments (10:30). Listeners will find practical advice throughout, from evaluating graduate programs and career prospects to leveraging faculty relationships and embracing opportunities for professional and personal development. Steven Foster encourages prospective students to research institutions thoroughly and think beyond just degree requirements—consider how the experience can open doors to consulting, teaching, volunteering, and more (17:03). If you're seeking inspiration, reassurance, or actionable tips for your graduate school journey, this episode is for you. Tune in and let Steven Foster and Dr. Christopher Lewis guide you through the path to graduate school success—because your journey is uniquely yours, and with the right tools and mindset, you can be victorious too! Click here to listen and start your journey to grad school success today! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, we are on a journey together, and I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. You are on a unique journey, something that you are going to be going through, whether you're at the very beginning and just starting to think about graduate school, or maybe you've applied, maybe, maybe you've been accepted. You could be in any of these places, you could even be in graduate school. But throughout all of this, you are on a journey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:44]: And through this journey, there are things that you can do to be able to help you to be successful along the way. And that's why this show exists. Every week I love being able to bring you different pieces of advice, different thoughts, different perspectives, and also different people that have gone before you to be able to give you some perspectives on their own experience going through graduate school. This week we got another great guest. Stephen Foster is with us, and Stephen is the Director of Financial Aid at the University of Michigan Flint. And I'm really excited to be able to have him here to tell you about his own experiences going through graduate school. And to welcome him to the show. Stephen, thanks so much for being here. Steven Foster [00:01:24]: Thank you, Kris, for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:25]: I am really excited to be able to have you. And one of the first things that I love doing is turning the clock back in time, and I want to go back a little ways because I know you did your undergraduate work, and after you went through that experience and got that Bachelor of Arts in English Language and Literature, you went off and got a job. You went off and worked, and you jumped into the world of financial aid. Steven Foster [00:01:49]: I did. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:50]: And you never looked back. But one of One of the things that I want to do is ask you about this point in time, because there was a point in time that you were working, you're out there, but at some point you had this inkling that you needed to go back. You wanted to continue. You had to scratch that itch for going back and getting more education. And I guess bring me back to that point and what made you decide that that was the right time, the right place? Steven Foster [00:02:16]: You know, thank you, Kris, and I'm excited to be here just to share some of my experiences. And I did receive my undergrad from University of Michigan, graduated with my master's in educational leadership from Wayne State University. And what really inspired the additional need for education is I knew that at one point in my career I was going to need it for that upward mobility, that social mobility, and having the credential, right, makes it a little bit easier, right, to give you the practical hands-on experience, to give you the theoretical aspect side, educational leadership research, to give you the technical pieces that you need to be a, a successful administrator and leader. So I knew that early on in my career because I actually started my graduate program and my graduate work about 2 to 3 semesters out from my undergrad after graduating. So I knew, I just knew early on that, hey, I need this credential, I'm going to need this credential along the way to help me to advance. And so I went to work during the day, and as soon as I was done at work during the day, I would go right into classes in the evening. And I guess early on it helped me because I still had some level of discipline as a student from my undergraduate experience. So I think that helped me a little bit along. Steven Foster [00:03:49]: The way in order to help me to, to push through to my master's to completion. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:54]: Now, I know you did your master's degree at Wayne State University and you got a Master of Education in Educational Leadership and Administration, and there are a lot of programs that are in the Master of Ed space and you chose Wayne State. So bring me back to that point. And when you were thinking about looking at, you know, pers— all the different prospective universities, what made you decide on Wayne State University? What made it stand out? And talk to me about that process for yourself. Steven Foster [00:04:23]: Yes. So I was looking at several programs and I really wanted to go into education. I wanted to go back in— I wanted to go in a K-12 setting. So I actually was looking at master's for teacher certification programs and I was looking at the University of Michigan. I also was looking at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill. I looked at Michigan State University and ultimately landed at Wayne State University for actually selfish reasons. It was a tremendous benefit called, uh, educational benefit, and it kind of altered my plans from, uh, going into the classroom and really finding my passion in the higher education side of, of education where I could affect change, where I could help students— be that bridge and bridge that gap to students to promote higher education and to promote education from a different lens, um, besides going into the classroom. So that's what kind of detoured me. Steven Foster [00:05:29]: It was actually the benefit of getting my degree paid for, but also I really got a passion for educating students how to think about college affordability, how to think about college finance, and how to plan for college, how to be successful in college and looking at higher ed. From the outreach side of things and being a bridge and being a spokesperson about the many benefits of receiving a higher education degree can bring to students and their families. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:02]: Now, going from undergrad to grad, you said that it had been a few terms out from when you graduated to when you started. And when you go into a graduate program, there definitely is a transition because it's a different way of being taught, a different— level of expectations by faculty members and a different level of expectation on yourself for what you're trying to achieve. So talk to me about those transitions. And as you transitioned into graduate school and through graduate school, what did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success? And what did you add to— have to do to be able to maintain that success throughout the graduate school journey? Steven Foster [00:06:45]: The biggest thing, or the number one thing that comes to my mind, is being disciplined. Being disciplined, being curious, being, being open. Because when you go undergrad or grad, I think grad is, uh, of course, higher thought processes. It's a lot of reading, it's a lot of theory, it's a lot of hands-on practice. So a combination of all of that, but being disciplined and organized. Those skill sets are extremely important in in your journey, definitely if you're transitioning back into the grad space after you've been out of school a number of years, staying on top of your assignments, staying on top of your reading, asking questions. You know the saying, there's no such thing as a dumb question, right? But having that intellectual curiosity that there are many different paths to ultimately get to where you want to be, but how you actually perceive the world of, of grad school, whatever your discipline is of study. It could be health sciences or education, social work or business, that there is some level of curiosity and exploration in coming to find out where are you the master at? What is your subject matter expertise? What are those things that interest you to where you say, I'm going to be the subject matter expert in this? It just opens your doors for possibilities to so many things. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:12]: You know, as you talk about that, you know, you're working on a master's degree and there's some internal thought that when you are being admitted into a master's program, you are becoming a master of something, which is sometimes a little dodging when you think about it to be called, eh, I'm the master of nothing. I'm a master of none. I guess when you went into that master's degree and as you're going through this coursework and you're seeing yourself in a different way, talk to me about that transition for yourself as an individual and as a professional and how that graduate degree helped you to either refine or redefine who you were at the time and who you were becoming? Steven Foster [00:08:53]: I think for me, and that— I think that's an excellent question. I think that it actually allowed me to refine, but not only refine, it's so many aspects to a master's degree and to graduate education that depending on what class you are taking or depending on what season you are in, in your life and how it benefits you in that moment. So for me, because I was so early on in my career, it allowed me to kind of shape how I wanted to be perceived as a professional. It kind of shaped my modus operandi in order to be an asset and be beneficial to all of the families that I serve and, you know, faculty working with different constituencies in higher education, working— how do you have conversations with Congress versus your faculty? And, you know, dealing with some of the nuances of how do you handle a sensitive student case to a parent that just wants basic information. So it gives you a breadth and a depth in order for you how to be successful, right? And how to apply the knowledge that you acquire. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:00]: Now, every individual, as they're thinking about graduate school, as they're going through graduate school, ends up hitting a point in time where whether it's you're seeing yourself as a master of something or you are just going through that first course where you feel that imposter syndrome and you go through this process of questioning, "Should I be here? Am I good enough?" All of those different thoughts that go through your head. Talk to me about how imposter syndrome impacted you and what you had to do to get through it. Steven Foster [00:10:30]: At points in all of our careers in education, as, as we're matriculating into degree programs, you know, on our jobs and our careers, maybe even in our households, there is always a bit of self-doubt in us. I could have handled that situation better, or how could I have accomplished that in a different manner? So I think that we have imposter syndrome across everything that we do, whether it's a volunteer experience, professional experience, personal experience. But for me, how I really overcame it was through self-awareness. But not also self-awareness, it's really also grasping on to like individuals. So a lot of times you're in classes with the same people. A lot of programs are cohort-based. My program was not necessarily cohort-based, but really having those conversations and building support systems to help you through. Sometimes you have to talk stuff through with a gamut of people. Steven Foster [00:11:33]: That could be your classmate, it could be your spouse, it could be your therapist, it could be your faculty your lead, or, you know, your advisor, or those things. So it's those people that help you along the way to be successful, but to also ground you and reel you back in when you need that reassurance. So my word of advice to people is don't be afraid to talk about the challenges that you are having. If you're in a grad program, or if you're in that space that you feel that imposter syndrome, you probably need to get it out, to express yourself, to make you feel a little bit and tackle it head on so that you don't continue to— some people, you know, beat, beat themselves up, not literally, but from that perspective. But talk to someone because someone else is also in your same shoes. And that's what I did. Latched on to some of my classmates, made sure, you know, we had regular conversations, you know, healthy debate about the work, about the assignments, about, you know, some of the challenges that we were experiencing in order to be successful. And, uh, one of the things is I was also— I was somewhat younger than some of my classmates at the time. Steven Foster [00:12:45]: I'm a little bit older now, but that wasn't the case when I started my master's program. I was in a class with professionals who had been working 20, 30 years at that point, and they were just starting to come back for their credential, right, for their upward mobility. And here I am, this young, spry kid coming in on the scene, and I'm in these rooms with people people who have double and triple the experience that I have, what am— how can I ever bring the value and knowledge of the experiences that, that they have? So it is a— it can be an overwhelming process, but you just have to get in where you fit in is the perfect way for me to put it. You don't have to try to over, um, outdo or outshine. Based on the little experience that I had, I still was able to contribute to the conversation in a meaningful and way. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:40]: Now, as you think back to the beginning, before you even started graduate school, I'm sure you had some conversations with friends, with colleagues, with others that could give you their own perspectives. And if you think back to that very beginning, what's something that you wish that someone had told you, or that you had known prior to starting graduate school that would have helped you to make that transition even better? Steven Foster [00:14:02]: I really do believe that it was just a little bit different for me because I was passionate about education. I was getting— I had hands-on work experience. I was, I was still working and going to school. So it wasn't like I wasn't working and only going to school or went straight through. I was able to apply what I was learning in my actual day-to-day. That made my experience even more successful or more better for me as I was talking to professors and things of that nature. Definitely at the University of Michigan Ann Arbor at the time, you know, and advisors and things of that nature, their thought process was learning experience is, it's an ongoing process, right? That curiosity for exploration and for learning is important. So they, they stress the importance of, if this is the path you want to take, you have to do this, or you have to do that. Steven Foster [00:14:55]: So they were actually my biggest cheerleaders in making sure that I was successful in my on-ramp to my grad program. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:02]: Well, it's always good to have those mentors and those people that help you to maneuver into figure things out along the way. And you also build relationships with faculty along the way as well. Talk to me about those relationships that you were able to build with faculty or with peers inside of your program. And how was that impactful in the experience that you went through? Steven Foster [00:15:26]: My relationship with my faculty advisor was, was tremendous because I was able to meet with them on a regular basis and have thoughtful conversation about what is it that I can do with this credential, what What paths make sense for me from a career perspective? What are the different things that I can do outside of my career? You know, what, what does it mean to go in consulting? I always think that ultimately I wanted to go and be a professor. I have started a PhD a while ago and opportunity came along and I put that on pause, but it's always the, the opportunity for them to share their experiences and based on the skills assets that you have, them to kind of guide you through some of those things. And that's what I'll always appreciate about definitely some of the faculty that I have connected with on a basis as a student, that they are always trying to get the best out of you, whatever that is for you as an individual. It's not, you know, they're not selling anything, they're not selling you any fairy dust and unicorns or anything like that, but they're trying to get the best out of their students. And that was the experience that I had. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:42]: And I guess finally, as you look back on your own experience, you were successful in the journey that you went through. And as you think back, I guess, to the entire experience and you look at where you are today and you think about people that are thinking about going to graduate school for themselves, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner? Steven Foster [00:17:03]: Some tips is research your institutions. Research your programs, look at the viable career paths that you want to go into, and look at the plan B or look at the— what's the side hustle that I can do from this degree that will produce additional streams of revenue, additional income based on the degree that you do have? Opportunities for consulting, opportunities for part-time or work from home opportunities from whatever the deal degree program is because for me, graduate education, it opens the door even more to more possibilities than your bachelor's degree a lot of times. And that upward mobility and that social mobility is very important for our students that we serve. So you want to make sure that this is something that you're truly passionate about, but that it opens other doors and opportunities for you to get the best well-rounded experiences that you need in order to be successful, maybe in your main career. But there are also branches that shoot off from that main career— speaking engagement, teaching opportunities, professorships, consulting opportunities, volunteer opportunities on boards and different things of that nature in order to help nonprofits and stuff grow depending on whatever your discipline is. So you're volunteer, you're professional. Experience, your community experience, all of that makes you a well-rounded person. And it gives us a personal ethos for us to be change agents in that you are in the world to shed your light and shed your experience in whatever direction that is and works best for you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:45]: Well, Stephen, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. And, you know, I'm going to continue to encourage you now that I know that you started a PhD to keep going. I'm looking— not to stop out, but always keep going, always keep pursuing, and don't, and don't give up. Steven Foster [00:19:01]: Absolutely. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:02]: So that being said, I thank you for your time today, and I wish you all the best. Steven Foster [00:19:06]: Thank you, Dr. Lewis. I appreciate you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:08]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

If you're applying to graduate school, you've probably heard this advice before: "Make your application stand out." And if you're like most applicants, your first thought might be: Okay… but how? Because when you look at what a graduate application requires—your personal statement, your resume, your recommendations, your writing sample, maybe even an interview—it can start to feel like a big pile of documents that don't automatically "connect." You may even be thinking: "How do I pull all of this together?" "How do I make sure I'm not just listing accomplishments?" "How do I explain my journey without oversharing?" "What if my path hasn't been perfectly linear?" Let me reassure you right from the start: A clear narrative doesn't require a perfect background. It requires intentional storytelling. And the best graduate applications don't just show that you can do graduate-level work… They show who you are, what shaped you, what matters to you, and what you want to build next. Today, I'm going to walk you through exactly how to do that. Why narrative matters in a graduate school application Admissions committees read a lot of applications. And I mean a LOT. Many applicants have: strong GPAs relevant work experience volunteer involvement leadership roles certifications awards So what makes one applicant memorable over another? Often, it's this: Clarity. A strong applicant helps the committee quickly answer three questions: Who is this person? Why graduate school—and why now? Where are they going, and how will this program help them get there? If your application clearly answers those three questions, your narrative will shine—even if you don't have the "perfect" resume. A key mindset shift: you're not just applying—you're introducing yourself Here's something I tell students all the time: Your application is not a transaction. It's a story. It's not: "Here are my documents. Please accept me." It's: "Here's who I am. Here's what I care about. Here's how I've prepared. Here's where I want to go. And here's why your program is the bridge between my present and my future." When you approach your graduate school application like a narrative, everything becomes easier to organize and write—especially your personal statement. Step 1: Find your "through line" (the story that connects everything) The biggest reason applications feel scattered is because applicants try to include everything. But you don't need to include everything. You need to include what supports your through line. A through line is a simple idea that connects your experiences like a string connecting beads. It might be: a passion (equity in education, mental health advocacy, community-based research) a professional goal (becoming a clinician, moving into leadership, transitioning careers) a lived experience that shaped your direction a problem you want to solve Ask yourself: "What's the theme that runs through my experiences?" And if you're thinking, I don't have a theme—I've done all kinds of things… That's okay. Most people have. Your through line doesn't have to be obvious at first. It often sounds like: "I've always been drawn to helping people make sense of complex systems." "I want to bridge the gap between access and opportunity." "I'm motivated by the belief that small interventions can create big outcomes." "I keep finding myself working at the intersection of people and problem-solving." Your job is to identify what has consistently pulled you forward. Step 2: Use the "Past → Present → Future" structure This is one of the simplest and strongest storytelling frameworks for graduate admissions. It works in personal statements. It works in interviews. It works in letters of intent. Here it is: Past: What shaped you? What experiences, moments, or observations sparked your interest? Present: What are you doing now? What have you learned, built, studied, or contributed that shows readiness? Future: Where are you going? What goals do you have—and how does this program help you reach them? If your application materials align with this structure, the admissions committee will feel confident recommending you. Step 3: Turn your experiences into meaning—not just a list Here's a common mistake: Applicants list experiences like they're writing a résumé in paragraph form. Example: "I completed a degree in psychology. I worked as a research assistant. I volunteered with a nonprofit. I also completed training in crisis intervention." That's not bad—but it's incomplete. What's missing? Meaning. Instead, you want to show what your experiences taught you and how they shaped your goals. Try this approach: What did I do? What did I learn? How did it shape what I want next? Example upgrade: "Through my work as a research assistant studying youth anxiety, I saw how often early intervention is limited by access and stigma. That experience pushed me toward crisis intervention training and strengthened my commitment to pursuing clinical practice focused on adolescents." See the difference? Graduate programs don't just want to know what you've done. They want to know what you've become because of it. Step 4: Be specific about your goals (without boxing yourself in) Another common challenge: applicants worry they have to have everything figured out. Let me say this clearly: You do not need to have a 10-year plan mapped out. But you do need to show that your goals are thoughtful, realistic, and connected to the program. Weak goal: "I want to advance my career and make a difference." Strong goal: "I want to develop the clinical assessment and intervention skills needed to support adolescents navigating anxiety and trauma, with the long-term goal of working in community mental health settings." Strong goal (leadership): "I want to move into higher education leadership roles focused on student success initiatives, using data-informed advising strategies to close equity gaps in persistence and completion." Specific doesn't mean rigid. Specific means you've done the work to understand your direction. Step 5: Connect your goals directly to the program you're applying to This is where applications rise or fall. Admissions committees can immediately tell the difference between: an application copied and pasted for multiple schools and an application written with intention for their program The key is to connect your story to their resources. Look at: curriculum concentrations internship/clinical placements research labs faculty expertise student organizations capstone projects community partnerships Then, write sentences like: "The emphasis on ___ aligns with my interest in ___." "I'm particularly drawn to the course ___ because it supports my goal of ___." "I'm excited by the opportunity to work with faculty whose research includes ___." This is not flattery. This is alignment. Step 6: Make sure every part of your application supports the same narrative Here's the secret that many applicants don't realize: Admissions committees aren't only reading your personal statement. They're reading your whole application to see if it tells one cohesive story. Your application should "agree" with itself: Your resume should support what you claim in your personal statement Your recommendations should reinforce your strengths and readiness Your writing sample should match your academic potential Your goals should match the program you selected You don't want contradictions like: personal statement says you want research, but resume shows no research involvement goals say "clinical practice," but nothing shows people-facing experience statement says you're passionate about X but never explains where it came from You want the committee to feel: "Yes. This makes sense. This applicant is ready." Step 7: Use a "signature sentence" to make your narrative memorable Want a simple way to stand out? Create one sentence that captures your story. Something like: "I'm pursuing graduate study to bridge mental health support and community access for youth." "My goal is to develop the leadership and data skills needed to build equitable student success systems." "I'm committed to using evidence-based practice to improve outcomes for underserved populations." Then weave that idea throughout your application materials. It becomes your anchor. Your north star. And it makes your narrative easy to remember. A quick checklist: Does your application tell a clear story? Before you submit, ask yourself: Can someone summarize my story in 2–3 sentences after reading my materials? Do my experiences clearly connect to my goals? Does my application explain why graduate school now? Did I clearly explain why this program is the right fit? Does my tone sound confident, grounded, and genuine? If yes, you're in an excellent position. One final encouragement If you're worried that your story isn't impressive enough, I want you to hear this: Graduate admissions committees aren't looking for perfect people. They're looking for: purpose readiness alignment growth potential And the clearest narrative isn't built from having the most impressive resume. It's built from knowing: who you are, what matters to you, and what you're building toward. And if you can communicate that clearly? You will stand out. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited that you're back again this week. And this week is another solo episode. I'm going to talk to you about another question that has been submitted. And this week we're going to be talking about how you can ensure that your graduate school application tells a clear story about you and your goals. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:36]: If you're applying to graduate school, you've probably heard this advice before. Make your application stand out. And if you're like most applicants, your first thought might be okay. But how? Anyway? Because when you look at what a graduate application requires, your personal statement, your resume, your recommendations, your writing sample, maybe even an interview, it can start to feel like a big pile of documents that don't automatically connect. May even be thinking, how do I pull all of this together? How do I make sure I'm not just listening accomplishments? How do I explain my journey without oversharing? And what if my path hasn't been perfectly linear? Well, let me reassure you right from the start, a clear narrative doesn't require a perfect background. It requires intentional storytelling. And the best graduate applications don't just show that you can do graduate level work. They show who you are, what shaped you, what matters to you, and what you want to build next. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:40]: Today I'm going to walk you through exactly how to do that. So why does narrative matter in a graduate school application? Well, admission committees read a lot of applications, especially at competitive institutions. And I mean a lot of applications. Many Applicants have strong GPAs, relevant work experience, volunteer involvement, leadership roles, certifications, awards. So what makes one one applicant memorable over another? Often it's this clarity. A strong applicant helps the committee quickly answer three questions. First, who is this person? Second, why graduate school and why now? And third, where are they going and how will this program help them get there? If your application clearly answers those three questions, your narrative will shine even if you don't have the perfect resume. Now, a key mindset shift that you're probably not just applying. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:36]: Here's a key mindset shift. You're not just applying. You're introducing yourself. Here's something I tell students all the time. Your application is not a transaction. It's a story. It's not, here are my documents. Please accept me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:50]: It's here's who I am. Here's what I care about. Here's how I've prepared, here's where I want to go, and here's why. Your program is the bridge between my present and my future. When you approach your graduate school application like a narrative, everything becomes easier to organize and write, especially your personal statement. So step one with this is to find your through line. It's that story that connects everything you see. The biggest reason applications feel scattered is because applicants try to include everything. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:25]: But you don't need to include everything. You need to include what supports your through line. A through line is a simple idea that connects your experiences, like a string connecting beads. It might be a passion, such as equity in education, mental health advocacy, community based research, or a professional goal. Becoming a clinician, moving into leadership, transitioning careers, or a lived experience that shaped your direction or a problem that you want to solve. So ask yourself, what's a theme that runs through my experiences? And if you're thinking, I don't have a theme, I've done all kinds of things. That's okay, most people have. Your through line doesn't have to be obvious at first. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:12]: It often sounds like I've always been drawn to helping people make sense of complex systems, or I want to bridge the gap across access and opportunity. Or I'm motivated by my belief that small interventions can create big outcomes. Or even I keep finding myself working at the intersection of people and problem solving. Your job is to identify what has consistently pulled you forward. The second part of this is to use the past, present, and future structure. This is one of the simplest and strongest storytelling frameworks in for graduate admissions. It works in personal statements. It works in interviews. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:55]: It works in letters of intent. And here it is. So, the past. What shaped you? What experiences, moments, or observations sparked your interest? The present. What are you doing now? What have you learned, built, studied, or contributed? That shows readiness and the future. Where are you going? What goals do you have, and how does this program help you reach them? If your application materials align with this structure, the admission committee will feel confident recommending you. Third step turn your experiences into meaning and not just a list. Here's a common mistake. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:33]: Applicants list experiences like they're writing a resume in paragraph form. For example, I completed a degree in psychology. I worked as a research assistant. I volunteered with a nonprofit. I also completed training in crisis intervention. It's not bad, but it's incomplete. Well, what's missing? The meaning. Instead, you want to show what your experience taught you and how that shaped your goals. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:59]: So try this approach. What did I do? What did I learn and how did it shape what I want next? So using that past example that I just said to you instead, what if it reads through my work as a research assistant studying youth anxiety, I saw how early intervention is limited by access and stigma. That experience pushed me toward crisis intervention training and strengthened my commitment to pursuing clinical practice focused on adolescence. Do you see the difference? Graduate programs don't just want to know what you've done, they want to know what you've become because of it. The fourth step Be specific about your goals without boxing yourself in. Another common challenge Applicants worry. No, another common challenge that we tend to see is that applicants worry they have to have everything figured out. Let me say this clearly. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:54]: Let me say this clearly. You do not need to have a 10 year plan mapped out, but you do need to show that your goals are thoughtful, realistic and connected to the program. So here's an example of a weak goal. I want to advance my career and make a difference. Now, a strong goal would be I want to develop the clinical assessment and intervention skills needed to support adolescents navigating anxiety and trauma with the long term goal of working in community mental health settings. Another example, another strong example that would that might give you some sense might be for someone that wants to do something in higher education leadership. If that's the case, you could say I want to move into higher education leadership roles focused on student success initiatives using data informed formed advising strategies to close equity gaps in persistence and completion. Specific doesn't mean rigid. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:49]: Specific means you've done the work to understand your direction. Step 5 Connect your goals directly to the program you're applying to. This is where applications rise or fall. Admission committees can immediately tell the difference between an application copied and pasted for multiple schools and an application written with intention for their program. The key is to connect your story to their resources. So as you're doing that, you want to take some time to look at curriculum concentrations, internship and clinical placements, research labs, faculty expertise, student organizations, capstone projects, and community partnerships. And then write sentences like the emphasis on aligns with my interest in blank or I'm particularly drawn to the course and you add it in because it supports my goal of whatever that is. Or even I'm excited about the opportunity to work with faculty whose research includes and then you add that in as well. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:51]: This is not flattery, this is alignment. Step 6 Make sure every part of your application supports the same narrative. Here's the secret that many applicants don't realize. Admission committees aren't only reading your personal statement they're reading your whole application to see if it tells one cohesive story. Your application should agree with itself. Your resume should support what you claim in your personal statement, your recommendation should reinforce your strengths and readiness, your writing samples should match your academic potential, and your goals should match the program you selected. You don't want contradictions, such as a personal statement that says that you want research, but your resume shows no research involvement or goals that say you want to be involved in clinical practice, but nothing shows people facing experiences, or a statement that says that you're passionate about this, but you never explain where that came from. You want the committee to feel yes, this makes sense and this applicant is ready. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:52]: And the final step is to use a signature sentence to make your narrative memorable. If you want a simple way to stand out, create one sentence that captures your story. For example, I'm pursuing graduate study to bridge mental health support and and community access for youth. Or my goal is to develop the leadership and data skills needed to build equitable student success systems. Or even I'm committed to using evidence based practice to improve outcomes for underserved populations. Then you can weave that idea throughout your application materials. It becomes your anchor, your North Star, and it makes your narrative easy to remember. So as we finish up today, a couple of things to remember does your application tell a clear story? Before you submit your application, ask yourself these questions. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:41]: Can someone summarize your story in two to three sentences after reading your materials? Does your experiences do your experiences clearly connect to your goals? Does your application explain why graduate school now? Did you clearly explain why this program is the right fit? And does your tone sound confident, grounded, and genuine? If yes, you're in an excellent position. So if you're worried that your story isn't impressive isn't impressive enough, I I want you to hear this. Graduate admission committees aren't looking for perfect people. They're looking for purpose, readiness, alignment, growth, and potential. And the clearest narrative isn't built from having the most impressive resume. It's built from knowing who you are, what matters to you, and what you're building toward. And if you can communicate that clearly, you will definitely stand out. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:39]: If you are interested in continuing your education, whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Are you a graduate student feeling the constant pressure to be flawless? Have you found yourself chasing impossible standards, believing that only perfect grades or perfect work will help you succeed? If this sounds familiar, you're not alone—and the new episode of "Victors in Grad School" is here to reassure and empower you. In a powerful conversation between Dr. Juanita Tookes and Dr. Christopher Lewis, Dr. Tookes shares a presentation about the Perfection Myth and dives deep into the experiences that graduate students face around perfectionism. The discussion is honest, validating, and filled with practical advice and heartfelt encouragement. Dr. Juanita Tookes shares her personal experience as a "recovering perfectionist," normalizing the struggle and reminding listeners that striving for perfection is a common—but ultimately unrealistic—desire. She explains that perfection is a constantly shifting, subjective concept defined by societal standards, cultural expectations, and comparison (especially in the era of social media). The elusive chase for perfection can leave students feeling anxious, burnt out, and always "less than," which is neither healthy nor sustainable. The podcast also digs into the impact of perfectionism on the brain, highlighting how a constant drive for flawlessness keeps students in a heightened state of fear and anxiety. This mindset, as Dr. Juanita Tookes explains, can deprive you of celebrating your achievements, push you toward burnout, and even negatively impact your mental and physical well-being. Listeners will appreciate the practical discussion of perfectionist behaviors—like overworking, fearing mistakes, avoiding help, and linking self-worth to performance. Dr. Christopher Lewis and Dr. Juanita Tookes reinforce that these behaviors are understandable in high-pressure environments like graduate school, especially when finances and career prospects are at stake, but they urge listeners to challenge these patterns for their own health and happiness. As the episode wraps up, you'll find wisdom in reframing mistakes as essential for growth, embracing imperfection as courageous, and celebrating persistence over unattainable perfection. There are even valuable resources recommended, including Brene Brown's "The Gifts of Imperfection." If you want to feel seen, inspired, and equipped to tackle grad school without the chains of perfectionism, this episode is a must-listen. Tune in and start your journey toward a more balanced, fulfilling academic life! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:03]: We have conversations with students, alumni, and. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:06]: Experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Hello, everyone. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:13]: Welcome. Really excited that you're here today, and I really appreciate you spending some time with us as we continue our student development series and partnership with our CAPS office on campus. And every term, I love being able to identify new topics that we can talk with you on to help you in the journey that you're on. And tonight I'm really excited because Dr. Juanita Tookes is back with us. And this topic, the topic that we're talking about tonight, is a really important one because a lot of times when I talk to graduate students, I hear many times that there are concerns and there's this feeling that you have to be perfect, that you have to get that a. That you always have to be at your best. And sometimes you can't always be at your best. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:59]: Sometimes you have to be willing to be okay where you're at. And, you know, the myth of being able to be perfect all the time is definitely that it's just a Myth. So today, Dr. Tooks is going to talk about the perfection myth and how as graduate students, you can reframe and rethink about things in a little bit different way. And so I'm really excited to have her here and to have her talk with us tonight. To Tactor Tooks, I'll turn it over to you. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:01:27]: Hello, everyone. I am so happy to be here again. As Dr. Lewis mentioned, this is a very valued partnership between the CAPS office and graduate studies. I love working with grad students, and a big part of my heart for grad students is because I remember being a grad student. I remember how hard it was. I am also recovering perfectionist. I don't know how many years in that I met that I'm at, but I will be the first to say that I suffer very badly with perfection. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:01:57]: And we're going to get into kind of what that looks like, how it can show up in your graduate student experience. But what I hope that you can get from this ultimately is feelings of validation. If you have gone through any of the things that we've talked about, I assure you you are not the only one. That's why I was the first to raise my hand. And I encourage you to engage in this conversation. I don't want to call it like a presentation, but feel free to use the zoom reactions. If there's anything that you relate to or anything that that really resonates with you, just use Some of the reactions, so that I know that, you know, what I'm saying is really kind of connect. You know, it's connecting with you. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:02:40]: This is going to be an honest, transparent space. You know, it's seven o' clock in the evening, so we're kind of loosening up. You know what I mean? So this is going to be a pretty easygoing conversation. It's going to be informative, it's going to be validating, it's going to be supportive. And like I said, I hope you walk away feeling seen, but also feeling empowered. And I hope I can inspire you all to think a little bit differently about how you're navigating your graduate student experience so that you can also start improving the state of your mental health so that you can actually enjoy this journey. So let's get into the perfection myth. Okay, so the plan for the conversation today is to talk about perfection as a definition, to also talk about perfection as a concept. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:03:23]: We're also gonna talk about perfection as far as how does this look in your brain? So we're gonna talk a little bit about some brain stuff, and then we're also gonna talk about how does that follow up in behavior. And then we're gonna talk about what does it mean when we're talking about being perfect as a graduate student? What does that even mean? Then we're gonna go through some myths and facts, and then we're just gonna wrap up. And in that part, I'll just leave some final thoughts and hopefully have time, you know, just based off of the information that we're going to go over today. But it'll be more, you know, conversational. If there's anything that you would like to express or anything that you would like to ask, let's talk about it. I'm also going to provide you with some resources that I hope will help you if perfection is an obstacle for you. And then we'll conclude our talk for the day so that you can enjoy the rest of your night. So let's talk about perfect as a definition. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:04:17]: So it was really interesting just looking up the meanings of perfect. And it's not because I didn't know it offhand, but I really like looking at official definitions for words. So when I looked across several sources, the word perfect means flawless, satisfying all requirements, accurate, precise, or exact, free from faults, defects, or blemishes, being the best possible. So I just want that to sit and sink in just for a second. I want your eyes to read over these words. Flawless, satisfying all requirements, being the best Possible, free from faults, defects, blemishes. Another definition was also complete. So I want these words to just sit and sink in as we continue on throughout this conversation. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:05:18]: So now let's talk about the concept, the perfect as a concept. So perfect as a concept is an idealized standard. Okay, Idealized standard. It's also subjective, meaning that it can be interpreted in many different ways across many different contexts, depending on who you might be talking to. So. So depending on you might have somebody's opinion or maybe a cultural standard, an industry standard. Perfection does not have an objective type of perspective. It's more subjective based off of who you're talking to and what's going on. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:06:05]: It's highly influenced by society. That's why it is always changing. So let's. Let's take beauty standards, for example. What is considered beautiful now may not have been beautiful five or 10 or 20 years ago, right? So, for example, I know that, like tattoos on models, for example, in the fashion industry, I want to say maybe 10 years ago, that was no. That was a no. No. You don't show tattoos because tattoos were not considered beautiful, which is fashion models often covered them if they were walking one way or doing print work. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:06:47]: But now tattoos are in, like tattoos are in. So everyone now they can be visible now they're acceptable, seen as a beautiful extension and artistic expression of someone's personality. But in the next two to three, four, five years, it could be something completely different. So there is never a stopping point for how people view beauty and beauty standards. Perfection is the same way society determines what is perfect. What does perfect mean? Who is perfect. And it can be harmful. Perfection can be harmful. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:07:25]: I was reading across some sources, and the sources were saying that perfection can be helpful or it can be harmful. And when it said it could be helpful, it said it could be helpful if it was used as a guide. If you use it as a guide to help you as far as, like, inspiring you, like working to such a high standard that it's inspiring you to do your best at the highest level possible without getting too high. It was kind of. I get what they were trying to say. If you aim for perfection, then you're going to put forth your best effort as far as being inspired to do your best. My concern about that, though, is everyone doesn't know where to draw the line. You know, when do I know that my good is good enough without obsessing about everything being right, you know, or complete or perfect? And that's why I don't necessarily agree that perfection can be Helpful, because most folks do not know where to draw the line, and they end up actually crossing that line into things, into a way of thinking that is unhealthy. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:08:42]: So I. My opinion goes with, it's harmful because it's often viewed as a requirement by most folks when we talk about what shapes perfection. And I'm going back to the point about it being influenced by society. It's also shaped by expectations. It's shaped by values. It can be shaped by routines. Culture comparison is a big thing that shapes perfection comparison. And that is a huge trap that everyone has fallen into, whether they've admitted it or not. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:09:17]: Especially in this age of social media where we. Whether we want to or not, we see how people are succeeding in life, whether it be their job or their grades or maybe the way that they're living their life. You know, they're going on vacations three times a year, and you're still trying to save up to get somewhere. You haven't been anywhere in like, maybe five years. I know in working with grad students in particular, I know students have told me sometimes that they are busting their brain trying to study for their exams and trying to catch up on readings and things like that. And they'll go on Instagram and see one of their peers who seems to be living the time of their life. They are outside taking trips, you know, enjoying social activities with friends and family. And then the other student is at home, like, how can I do that? Like, they just. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:10:08]: It's perfect for them. They get great grades. They are able to have a life. I'm over here hanging on by a thread. What am I not doing? I need to work harder because I need to have that kind of a life. So it's very easy to think that you. That people achieve this standard of perfection, and it makes other people feel very discouraged in themselves that they are not at that level, which makes them push themselves harder, to very harmful extents, to achieve something that is not achievable. And we're going to get to that when we talk about myths and facts. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:10:47]: But think about somebody pressing, pressing and pushing themselves to a limit that is not possible. And every day that they get up, they are pushing themselves to this unrealistic limit. Think about what that does with your mind. Think about what that does to your soul. Think about what that does to your physical body when you are pushing yourself to unrealistic limits every single day. So now let's talk a little bit about what goes on in the brain when you are a person who is endorsing perfection. And I also hope that with this conversation we can raise awareness about perfection. So maybe if you are someone who did not realize that your behaviors line up with being a perfectionist or acting in alignment with perfection, this can make you aware. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:11:41]: Not to make you ashamed, it's to make you aware so that you can modify your behavior to something that's more constructive and healthy. So perfectionism often keeps the brain in a heightened state of fear, which can result in anxiety and overthinking. This part of the brain that we're talking about is the amygdala. The amygdala is activated when you are in a constant state of fear. Because in this area of the brain, this is where you process emotions. A lot of emotional processing goes on in the amygdala, especially fear and anxiety. So this is where fight or flight is activated right there. You know, in the amygdala, rewards are for outcomes and not effort. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:12:27]: So this is the way cognitively that you are thinking about what you are doing, trying to reach a standard of perfection, right? So you are not going to reward yourself unless you get that perfect outcome, unless you get that 100%, unless you get that 4.0, unless you don't receive any negative feedback back for the whole semester. That is when you will reward yourself. But when you are holding yourself to that standard and you are depriving yourself of rewards because rewards are actually a very healthy thing to do, self rewarding is very, very healthy. Self rewarding and self celebrating. Because what it does is it acts as fuel for your motivation because you're pumping yourself up and cheering yourself on. When you do reward yourself for things that you do, things that you do achieve the wins that you do recognize with your pursuit as a grad student. But when you deprive yourself for when you deprive yourself of rewards, because remember, you are trying to achieve something that is not achievable. So what does that mean? If you are waiting for the outcome of perfection and perfection is not achievable, and you're depriving yourself of a reward until you reach this unachievable standard, guess what that means? That means that you're not going to get a reward, then you know that's what that means. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:13:50]: And so when you do not get a reward and you're trying to withhold this good thing from yourself, what ends up happening is you decrease dopamine. So now you know we're talking about hormones in the brain, right? So dopamine is like the. It's like the feel good hormone. It's called, like, the happy hormone. So when you reward yourself with something, you increase levels of dopamine in the brain. But when you deprive, deprive yourself of good things, that means you decrease the amount of dopamine that's being released in the brain. And I want to add, too, in this way of thinking, achievement, right, because you're. You're holding out rewards until you get the achievement or the outcome, the. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:14:33]: The perfect outcome that. That you want. When you do make an achievement with this line of thinking, it is often bringing you relief, not satisfaction. You're just relieved. Like, whoa, okay, you know, I got that 100% on that exam onto the next thing. It's not bringing you satisfaction. You're not thinking about how satisfied you are with how you studied and how hard you worked. It's just you worried yourself to the extent that you thought that you were going to fail, and you are like, whew, I did not fail. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:15:09]: All right? I'm relieved because I really thought I was going to get kicked out of this class and dismissed from the program, but I got 100%, and now it's on to the next thing. So you're not even stopping to celebrate the fact that you got 100%, and instead of being satisfied because of your diligent efforts, you are just. You're just plowing into the next thing. You're not even stopping to recharge. So I hope that you can see how unhealthy this is. Perfection. Perfection is like, I. I want you to think of like. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:15:39]: Like a horse driver. You know, I. I know we've all seen it where it's or not a horse driver. I'm sorry, it could be a horse driver, but almost like a. A husky team, right? Where it's like, go, go. You have the person on the little sled, and it's like, go. Mush. Mush. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:15:54]: That's kind of how perfection operates in your brain. Mush. Keep going. We don't have time to stop. We don't have time to reward. We don't have time to celebrate. We don't have time for this. You need to go into the next thing, and you better achie like you did the last time. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:16:09]: Think about how harsh that sounds, because that's a part of perfectionism, too. Very, very harsh treatment of yourself. Very, very harsh talk of yourself. There's no encouraging. There's no cheering. There's no embracing. It's just mush. Continue. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:16:27]: Go. We can't stop right now. Stopping is for the week. I really want you to hear how hard it is to operate under those types of mental conditions. And this is all going on in the brain. Perfectionism causes stress. It causes stress and burnout because stress leads to burnout. It's a part of the burnout experience when we're thinking about this. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:16:56]: When you think about stress, when somebody is stressed, that means that their brain and their body are not safe to rest. It's not safe. I got to be on edge. I got to be ready. I have to be on defense like I have to, you know, I'm on edge because I have to. Your body is in a state, your body and mind are in a state of alert. So it's right in connection with that fight or flight with that part that's going on in the amygdala, that part of the brain. So you're not able to ease up. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:17:24]: You're very tense, you're very worried, you're very alert, you're on edge and your body and your brain has to rest. Grad studies are very, It's a very intense level of education if you do not balance intense focus and concentration. You're looking at computer screens all day. You're reading text with extra small font, journal articles and books and chapters and like, things like that. If you do not give your, your brain and your body a chance to rest, you're going to burn them both. You're going to burn them out. You're going to burn them out. So I really want you to think about how stressful it is when you are putting your brain and your body under such hard conditions of working. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:18:09]: And when we talk about stress, we're talking about cortisol, increased levels of cortisol and adrenaline, because those are stress hormones. So again, we're still talking about brain functioning here. And the reason why I wanted to make sure that I talked about the brain because I think it's very, very important to have a physiological perspective of how these constructs as perfection really does have an impact not only on the psychological, but the physiological. It's all in alignment. How you think and how your brain conceptualizes it could really cause an imbalance in chemical hormones in the brain which affect your mood, which affect your mental health. It can affect your, your physical health. So it's really important to understand what, what perfection looks like on the inside of our brains. Also, perfection reduces cognitive flexibility, right? It's not flexible. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:19:06]: That's why you don't, that's why you feel like you can't make any Mistakes. Everything has to be perfect. You can't get any questions wrong on the exam. It doesn't matter that you got a 99%. You missed that one question. And now the test was 75 questions multiple choice. You missed one question. You still got an A. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:19:31]: But instead of celebrating yourself and appreciating all of the hard work that you put in, you are focused on that one question you missed. And I have heard students say to themselves, well, that was stupid. I was so stupid for that. Like, I should have known. Like, that question was so easy and I got it wrong. Not thinking that you got 74 other questions correct and you still passed, like, with an A. But when you have cognitive, when you don't have cognitive flexibility, it means that you have a rigid way of thinking. So you have A. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:20:02]: And this aligns with a fixed mindset. You cannot make a mistake. A mistake is weakness. You might as well just start all the way over. It doesn't matter that you got 74 of the questions correct. You need to study triple time on the final so that you can get 100%. So now let's talk about behavior. Right. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:20:24]: So we talked about cognitively, when you're thinking about perfection and this way of thinking, how is it impacting the hormones in your brain? Right. One thing about behavior is behavior follows thoughts. So whatever you're thinking, that is going to show up in how you act. Right? And I had to decrease the size of the font on this slide because the list is ongoing as far as behaviors that align with perfection. So perfection doesn't just show up as a mindset as we talked about on the previous slide, but it shows up as patterns of behavior as well. And one thing that I think is really important is these behavior behaviors are often subtle and they are socially rewarded. So let's just stop and park right there just for a second. Some behaviors of perfection are often rewarded, so that's why they are very hard to recognize. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:21:19]: So let's just take a workaholic, for example. I am also a recovering workaholic along with being a recovering perfectionist. And I think I would, you know, I had some flare ups because as a workaholic, the reason why I was a workaholic is because nothing was good enough. And I had to make sure that everything was perfect because nobody could know that I'm making mistakes. And I had to check this email 15 times because, you know, please don't find a typo. Like, do not find a typo. You know, that's just going to disregard all of my Intelligence. If there's one typo in this email. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:21:56]: So this is of course not the whole entire list. This list can go on for 10 more slides, but I just wanted to list some examples here. So spending excessive time on tasks to make them just right, difficulty stopping or submitting work. And I really, as I'm going through these examples and as you are reading them for yourselves on this screen, please take a minute to reflect on your own behavior. If you are doing these things again, it's to make you aware, not ashamed. Because the more aware you are, that puts you in a really good position to make modifications to your behavior in ways that help you experience your life in better quality ways. So avoiding new or unfamiliar opportunities. Harsh self criticism. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:22:47]: Harsh self criticism. After minor mistakes, like I just said with my example of the exam, sensitivity to feedback or criticism. I think this is a very important one because remember when I said earlier in the conversation about I am, you know, striving towards the goal of not receiving any kind of critique all semester? Well, you're going to get critiqued. Like critique is inevitable, you know, and critique is not a negative thing. But a lot of times, especially those who are perfectionists and who operate in perfection, critique is a bad word. It is not a bad word. You can receive positive critique, you can receive critique about growth, but it's all in how you perceive critique. If you think it's bad, then you are going to approach it in fear. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:23:41]: Remember that fight or flight. You feel threatened when you hear that the professor wants to talk to you after class. Or maybe there is a note that your instructor wrote on one of your assignments. You don't even want to read it because it's kind of like, why are you saying anything to me about this perfect product that I just gave you? If you want to meet with me, that means that I did something wrong and now I'm afraid. And what I might try to do is avoid reading the critique, avoid meeting with the professor. I might make some excuses as to why I don't return the email because I am afraid that you are going to tell me that all of my hard work is garbage and I wouldn't be able to handle that. So I'm just. I'm not going to listen to any critique at all. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:24:29]: Again, these are not helpful ways of thinking because critique, if you allow it to, it will help you to grow. If you realize that it does not define who you are as a person and it's meant to mold and shape and make you better, then you can approach receiving feedback differently. All or nothing thinking. Either it's perfect or it's trash. There is no in between. There is no in between at all. If it is not 100% on this test, I'm a failure. I'm stupid. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:25:03]: Doesn't matter that I got an 85. Doesn't matter if I didn't get the 100, I might as well have just gotten a 0. Hiding struggles to maintain a competent image. So being very worried about how you are perceived by others if they know that you're struggling. You know, I know a lot of students are worried about what their professors and what their instructors think about them. I had a student who had to repeat a class, and the reason why the student was struggling the second time around is because the student was very afraid that the instructor perceived them as incompetent because they had to take the class again instead of working with the professor to make sure that they had the skills and they had the extra help that they needed to pass the class the second time around, they avoided the instructor because they really thought the instructor just had a negative perception of that. That was really sad to hear. I'm really happy that I was able to work with that student to help them understand the benefits of being transparent with instructors so that can, you know, just demolish those distortions in your head that are telling you something that is completely not true. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:26:24]: Not asking for help. And a lot of times shame is associated with this, and it goes right to the point before it. Hiding struggles to maintain a competent image. I don't want to ask for help. If I ask for. Let's just, for example, I can't ask for help as an assistant director. I'm the assistant director. I'm the ad. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:26:43]: I can't ask for any help. What is my supervisor going to think if I ask her? If I ask her for help on this project, I'm supposed to know everything. I shouldn't have a question for her. If I have a question for her, she's going to think that I can't do this job. So I'm going to continue to struggle with something that I don't understand versus asking a question from somebody who knows and can give me understanding because I am too afraid that they're going to think that I am not going to be able to perform well. So all of the falsified things that we tell ourselves because we are afraid. We're afraid about what other people will think. We're afraid about what's going to happen if we go out and do something new or different. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:27:26]: We're afraid about falling short. We're afraid. Fear is a very, very intense and paralyzing emotion. And that's why it's so important to have conversations like this, so that you don't feel as afraid as afraid. And knowing that there's help out there for you if you are dealing with a 10 sphere like this, struggling to delegate and share tasks, because a lot of times we're afraid to let others know that we might need some help. But with perfection, it's also about control. Nobody can do it like me, so I'm gonna just do it myself. I remember working with someone who was working on a huge project, and they needed help with the project, but instead of asking for help, they worked over about four hours to complete it, when they could have completed it in about maybe an hour, maybe 90 minutes at the most, if they would have asked for help from their team. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:28:25]: And so we had to kind of explore that together about why didn't you ask your team for help if they were all present and they said that they would help you? And the response was, well, I have a particular way that I like to do things, and so I know how I like it. So I just decided to do it myself. But this was at the cost of the person working over four hours, not getting paid overtime, working through their break period. And this is not physically or psychologically healthy. Right? Difficulty accepting praise or success, and then comparison. So if we think about the themes with these examples, we see overworking, we see control, we see rigidity, and we see emotional suppression. All of this is part of the experience and the endorsing operating under perfection. So let's talk about the perfect student when it comes to the grad student experience. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:29:32]: One thing that I would like to ask, and if you feel free to put it in the chat as we go through this particular slide, but why do you think grad students in particular feel the need to be perfect? Just type it in the chat. There's no wrong answers for this, but I would really like to know what you think as to why grad students would feel like they need to achieve a standard of perfection. I know that, and I explain to students this all the time. Graduates school is a different level of education. The ante is definitely upped when it comes to grad school and the expectations and the evaluations, they're different, you know, than undergrad. And so it can add some pressure to what students, you know, think about themselves coming into a grad program. We have some answers, some things in the chat. So let's take a pause for the cause and see what you all have to say. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:30:36]: So, Michelle, you said money spent for the program and loans because it is a higher level of education. So we feel as if we need to show we are highly competent, Very, very insightful. And I appreciate those responses. Michelle, I want to touch on what you said. Money spent for the program and loans. I have worked with grad students who have been dismissed from their program because they may have failed a course or weren't doing academically well. And one of the this experience is heartbreaking for staff and faculty because that's not what we want for any student. But it happens. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:31:24]: But students are really afraid in situations like this because they fear like, I went through all of this. I still owe money on these loans and I don't even have a degree to show for it because I got dismissed from the program. I'm a failure. I have all of this money and I have nothing to show for it. So I'm glad that you touched on that, Michelle, because sometimes the money is very pressuring. Spending all this money going to college, going to law school, going to medical school, spending all of this money trying to get this education. And what if I don't do well? Like in this case, I was talking about students who actually were dismissed from programs. But what about students who are doing okay, you know, they're actually doing good? Sometimes that loan, that financial pressure, Right. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:32:12]: And just knowing that you have all of this debt, it could make you feel like. Or all of this money that you're either investing or in money that you have to pay back, it can make you feel pressure about, well, what if I don't make it? What if I don't succeed and then I don't get a job and then I'm stuck with all of this debt? What am I going to do? So now anxiety is already making you think that you've been dismissed from a program when you're actually doing quite well. So I'm glad you touched on that. Let's read a little bit more. So, Dr. Lewis, thank you for contributing criticism of your work. Doesn't feel like this draft needs revision. It feels like maybe I don't belong here. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:32:50]: And this breeds perfectionism. Yep. Grad programs select people who are already top of their class, highly motivated, used to being the smart one. So suddenly everyone is talented and the old identity, old identity advantage disappears when your peer group shifts. You can start thinking everyone else is doing better than me. I have to prove I deserve to be here. That pressure can morph into perfectionism. I agree 100%. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:33:18]: When I used to work with medical students, in particular, I used to work for Michigan State's University's College of Osteopathic Medicine. So I had students who were coming from undergrad going into doctoral programs, and in undergrad, they were at the top of their class, right? They were at the top of their class, but then they took that first anatomy class in their first semester of med school. They may have been at the top of their anatomy and physiology. I forgot the coursework. It's been so long. I used to know this like the back of my head, but it's like, you took anatomy courses in undergrad and you were at the top, but then you take your first anatomy class at the doctoral level in med school, and you're not doing so hot. You're used to being the smart one, the one that's at the top of their class, and now you're like, what the heck happened? Like, what happened? I just graduated a few months ago. What happened to my brain just over the last few months? And what I had to tell students a lot of the time is, this is medical school. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:34:21]: This is not undergrad. We are not in Kansas anymore, okay? This is a whole new level of learning and education. You got a lot of stuff coming at you. The teaching structure is different, the content is different. So you can't use the same strategies of study that you may have used in undergraduate, because you're going to have to develop a whole new infrastructure of studying and working as a. As a. As a doctoral student, as a med student. So I try to very much encourage students to think it's not you. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:34:55]: It's not anything that changed with your brain. It's the fact that your level of education and the domain of learning that you're in has changed. And like Dr. Lewis pointed out, everybody was at the. Everybody's at the top of their class. This is med school, so they're taking the top of the top. That's why everyone doesn't get in. It's very competitive, and we're going to. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:35:13]: Oh, and which goes into my next. Goes into my next point. Right? Competitiveness. Grad programs are more competitive than undergrad education because they only have so many slots to fill with students. So the competitiveness can also make students feel like they have to be perfect. Imposter syndrome is interwoven all up and through this presentation. Dr. Lewis and I, we done a lot of presentations on imposter syndrome, so that is also mixed in here and also failure conversations it's taboo. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:35:48]: We don't talk about failure in college. One of the things that I really loved doing when I was working with medical students was talking to faculty who were willing to be transparent about their failures as medical students in their education, in residency, when it was time to take their board exams. And surprise, surprise, a lot of faculty were not willing, they did not want to be transparent about those struggles with students because they felt like students perceived me as the one who was supposed to know everything. If I let them know that I failed my license exam, I am not going to be a credible resource. They're not going to look at me as credible. But I'm like, no, actually it probably would help you connect a lot of bit more with students if they know that you did experience a failure. And look at you now, you still became a doctor, you're still very successful, you still know a boatload of stuff that they don't know. But it was the faculty's perception of themselves that still made them feel, which at least that's what I picked up. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:36:51]: There were still elements of shame about those past failures, which is why they were not willing to be transparent. And if I add, it doesn't mean that you have to share all your business about every failure that you ever done. Transparency is not a man mandatory thing that you have to do, but it's one of those things. Whereas if you use it in the right way, it could be a powerful change agent as far as how students think of themselves and how they look at authority figures. Because a lot of times they might look at an authority figure like I wish I could be like Dr. So and so or Mr. And Ms. So and so. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:37:24]: They're so smart. I know, like they just whiz through school and I'm up here struggling to know that your professor also had shortcomings. If kind of changes the perspective of they can do no wrong. Like putting them up on these high pedestals. It brings them down to a human level where it's like, well, if they can experience a failure and they can still make it, I can make it too. So it's more so inspirational. It's definitely not something that could put someone in a negative light if you perceive it that way. Sometimes a dangerous truth. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:38:00]: In many programs, the most praised students are the ones who work constantly. Say yes to everything, never set boundaries, appear always capable. If the culture implicitly rewards intensity, students learn, my worth equals my output. Perfectionism becomes a survival strategy to stay respected. Agree 100% Dr. Lewis. I remember as a grad student in my PhD program, I would always tell my professors, like, every time I would see them, if you need anything, just let me know. If you need anything, just let me know. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:38:33]: One of my professors stopped me and said, juanita, I know what you're doing. I know all that you're doing. There's nothing that you would be able to do for me. Not because you're not capable, but you don't have the time. You don't have the bandwidth. You're teaching classes this semester. You're in internship. You're still taking courses at night, working in the counseling center part time. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:38:57]: During the day, you're doing clinical supervision, like working on some research. You don't have it to do anything for me. And it really made me look at myself. Like, why am I telling people that I am still available to do something if I'm not available? But I thought that if faculty knew that I was always available, it would make me look better as a student that they know that I'm doing a thousand things, and I can still do a thousand more things. So I was so appreciative of that professor who said, juanita, you can't. And that is okay. You know? And when you think about what grad students think about, they think about, like, letters of recommendation, if they're going to go on with their education. They think about maybe possibly being on somebody's research team. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:39:44]: It's kind of like if I keep making myself available, then they'll remember that. And then when it's time, you know, to get on their research team or maybe, you know, if I ask them for a letter of recommendation, they'll write it. Not even thinking about the fact that maybe they would just do it anyway simply because you just asked, not because you overworked yourself. Very good conversation in the chat. Thank you so much for everyone contributing. All right, we're almost done. Let's get into some myths now. So you're not the only one who's thought this. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:40:11]: Okay. I think I've thought everything on this list. So perfection is achievable. Some of these we've already answered, right? We already said that perfection is not achievable because it's constantly changing. So there's. There's not a final endpoint, a destination, a particular bar where it's like, that's the end. Because it's constantly changing due to various things in the world. Being perfect is the key to high achievement. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:40:39]: Mistakes are signs of incompetence. That's why you should never make one as a Grad student, you should never make one. If everything is perfect, no one can criticize you. What's to criticize? It's all done perfectly. There's no error, there's no mistake. So there's nothing to say, right? Perfection improves confidence. Let's take some time. Let's let it sit, let's let it sink. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:41:07]: Let's think before we go to these facts. Especially that, those last two. If everything is perfect, no one can criticize you. And perfection improves confidence. Okay, now let's talk about some facts. Because the way that you fight fear. Right, Because I want you to think about perfectionism. Perfectionism is connected to anxiety and anxiety is based in fear. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:41:33]: So what is driving perfection? Fear. That's what I want you to realize. It's not because you want to do so well. No. You're afraid of something. That's why you don't want to make a mistake. That's why you don't want to let others help you. That's why you cannot submit this draft right now. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:41:50]: Even though you've read it a hundred times. You are afraid of something. And the way that you fight fear is with facts. Because anxiety will always try to scare you with something that hasn't even happened yet. Something that is so out of this world, but it seems very real. Because it's a threat. And threats make us afraid. That's why in the part of the brain that processes emotions. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:42:13]: Put it in the chat. If you remember the part of the brain that I mentioned that processes emotions, especially anxiety and fear, that fight or flight. What part of the brain is that Starts with an A. Put it in the chat if you remember. This is not a pop quiz, I promise you. Let's fight this fear with some facts. Yes, Michelle. The amygdala. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:42:35]: Woo hoo. I wish I had some prizes to give out, but I don't. I just have little zoom, little zoom responses. So let me find a nice little zoom response. Woohoo. Thanks, Michelle. Okay, so like I said, perfection is always changing. So that's that. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:42:52]: Success usually comes from persistence, not perfection. So remember what we said on the last slide. Being perfect is the key to high achievement. Now, high achievement usually comes from persistence. You're learning from mistakes and you're adaptable. So once you've made mistakes and kind of learned what to do better, then you change, you modify, you try again. That's where success comes from. Mistakes are essential for learning and growth. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:43:20]: Because remember what the myth was, Mistakes are a sign of incompetence. No, mistakes are actually essential. They are a part of your success process. You will not be able to succeed without making a mistake and without failing at something. Okay? Criticism is inevitable because remember the myth was if everything is perfect, no one can criticize you. Well, you're going to receive critique no matter what. So you're going to be constantly evaluated and critiqued. You're not going to be able to avoid it. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:43:52]: So that's why it's very important to know. How do you conceptualize critique? Is it because everything I'm doing is garbage and I must have done something wrong? No, it actually could be because you're doing something right and doing something well. Or this could be information to help me become better. Right. Versus internalizing it and taking it personal. Perfectionism often undermines confidence by tying self worth to performance. Because remember that last myth was perfectionism improves confidence. Actually, it undermines confidence because it is tied to your self worth based off of how you perform. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:44:28]: So if you do not perform well, that means that you are not looking at yourself well, you're looking at yourself as incompetent or stupid or I don't deserve to be in this program and I should have known way better than that. I'm going to have to study a lot harder. Your self worth is low because you perceive your performance as low. So you actually are not confident. Right. So I wanted to insert this research in here because I was really, really just intrigued about everything that I was learning. And so I just wanted to see kind of what research had to say about perfectionism. And so I was looking at this study about academic perfectionism, psychological well being, and suicidal ideation in college students. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:45:12]: And so Fernandez, Garcia and colleagues looked at a group of over 1200 Bachelor's, Master's and doctoral university students. And these students all completed a questionnaire that measured different things. And the study aimed to analyze the extent to which high levels of perfectionism could compromise psychological well being. And so what the results showed was that there was a direct and significant relationship between perfectionism and academic performance. So when you have a direct significant relationship or positive relationship, that means as variable A goes up, variable B goes up. So variable A, you know, is perfectionism, variable B is academic performance. So students who reported endorsing perfectionism at higher levels also had higher academic performance than those who did not report that they were operating under perfectionism. But for some students, there was a significant but inverse relationship found between perfectionism and psychological well being. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:46:22]: So we're not talking about academic performance anymore. Now the variable C is well being. So when we have a significant an inverse relationship. That means as variable A goes up, variable C goes down. Right. So students who reported endorsing perfectionism at higher levels, their well being was at a lower level. Right. And so this was indicative of higher, higher numbers of students reporting that they were experiencing suicidal thoughts. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:47:01]: Right. So when we see students reporting a higher level of suicidal ideation or thoughts, that means your mental health is low, if that is high. Right. So when we talk about an inverse relationship, that means one goes up, one goes down. The more perfectionism you endorse, the lower your psychological well being is, which opens up to the door to poor mental health symptoms like suicidal thoughts. So I just thought that that was really interesting and I wanted to share that information with you all. Okay, so now we're at the conclusion. So now we're going to wrap up. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:47:39]: And I love quotes. I'm a quote person, I love quotes. So I just wanted to leave you all with some quotes that I found in regards to perfectionism. Done is better than perfect. Now, the quote that I found was from Sheryl Sandberg, but I actually have heard this same statement many times throughout my grad school experience, especially when I was working on my dissertation. And I mentioned that because a lot of doctoral students who are working on dissertations want a perfect dissertation. It has to be perfect. Because this is high stakes. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:48:15]: If I don't pass this, I don't get my doctorate. And if I don't get my doctorate, what does this whole experience mean? Going back to what you said, Michelle, all the money that I invested and all the time that I spent and all the courses that I took and the grades that I if I do not pass the dissertation, I don't get my doctorate. So it's a very pressuring environment. There's a lot on the line here. But I remember a dissertation coach, Dr. Ramon Goins, I remember him saying, you know, a done dissertation is better than a perfect one. And I've also been told too, which was comforting in a way, your dissertation may not be your best piece of work. More than likely it's probably not going to be because it's the first big project that you've ever done as a brand new doctor. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:49:05]: So it's probably not going to be your best work. Your best work is going to come after that when you have more time and more experiences and more exposure to doing research and writing and all of these other things. So I want you to take this with you. Done is better than perfect. Get it done. Just get it done. You know, finish the Chapter, finish the test. Like, don't overanalyze what you've done. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:49:29]: Send the email. Like, get it done. Because if you're wasting time over analyzing to make sure that it's perfect, then that means that something is left unfinished and unsubmitted and you're not achieving the goal, which is to complete what you start. Have the courage to be imperfect. I really love this because it is an act of courage to embrace your imperfections. It is. It really, really is. I want you all to think of yourself as courageous. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:49:59]: It is courageous to know that, hey, I have some shortcomings. Hey, you know, I don't always get it right all the time. I don't really know this area very well. You know, it takes courage to stand up to perfection. It takes courage. It takes bravery to stand up and look perfection in the eye and say, I'm okay with not knowing how to do this. I'm okay with asking for help. It's okay, it's okay. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:50:25]: I gotta see. It's okay. I'm gonna do better next time. The most valuable thing you can make is a mistake because you can't learn anything from being perfect. And remember what I said mistakes are. I know you're going to have. I know you got some amazing professors, some amazing instructors, some amazing mentors, right? But the best teacher that you're going to have, not just in grad school but in life, are mistakes. You are going to learn a lot from them. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:50:54]: I don't want you to just think about academic mistakes. I want you to think about life mistakes that you've made. Okay? Think about the value of the lesson and the mistakes. If you are so busy internalizing and questioning why you made the mistake in the first place, guess what's going to happen? You're going to miss the lesson. And when you miss the lesson, that means you got to repeat the course. I'm not just talking about in grad, in the grad program. I'm talking about in life. When you miss the lesson, you have to retake the course. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:51:23]: Trust me, I've been a summer, a summer school student in life many times before. Okay, you want to make sure that. And I know sometimes we can get bummed out when we know that, that we've made a mistake. And, you know, give yourself that permission, right? But draw the line and say, okay, what am I supposed to look for here? What am I looking at here? Okay, so if you are experiencing anxiety or fear or if you know your perfection, your perfectionistic behavior is running your life. And you need help. If you need help developing new ways of doing things. If you need skills, if you need tools, come caps. Come to caps. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:52:07]: We're located on the second floor of the University Center. I know that we have grad students who are online programs. Maybe they are not on campus. We can talk to you virtually via Zoom. If you want to inquire about setting up some counseling sessions so that you can have professional help standing up to perfection, building up that confidence in healthy and constructive ways, just go to umfl.edu caps. All of the information that you need to know will be found there as far as how to inquire about a consultation with us to potentially start services. And I also have my email address right there. So if you want to email me, please do. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:52:50]: I will answer any questions that you have about mental health resources, perfectionism, like anything that we've talked about. And I am actually going to put a resource in the chat here, which is a book by Brene Brown. I've actually read this book and I'm. I hope I can find it. I've read this book. I'm actually reading it for the third time, but I'm gonna put it here in the chat. The book is called the Gifts of Imperfection. It's a really good read. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:53:30]: So I'm going to copy it here just as a recommendation and as a resource. Yep. And that is the conclusion of the presentation. So I know we have a couple of minutes left, so I'm going to stop sharing so that whoever, if you have any final thoughts or if there's anything that you would like to express, you know, feel free to go ahead. I'm definitely opening up the floor to you all. Thank you so much for your transparency, Shannon. Like, that's what I was hoping. I just want to encourage, you know, because we all struggle with things, you know, all of us. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:54:09]: But struggles don't define who we are. It just shines a light on an area that we can receive some help in. So that's why it's so important to ask for help. So thank you so much for your comment. So I'll turn it back over to you, Dr. Lewis. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:54:22]: Sounds good. Really appreciate it, Dr. Tookes, for all of this amazing information. This is something that I think everybody should be learning about because I think all of us have been impacted by this in some way through our graduate school experiences. And I love what you said about all of your faculty have experienced this in some way. And they may not talk about it, but they have dealt with it. The professionals on campus have dealt with it, they may still be dealing with it. You never know. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:54:52]: You know, none of us. You can't keep it in the back of your mind that I'm the only one that's not perfect. Because no one around you is perfect. None of us are perfect. So I really appreciate, Dr. Tux, you sharing this today and thank you all for being here. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:55:06]: Yeah, thank you so much. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:55:08]: Wish you all the best as you go through this term and beyond. If you need anything, please reach out. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. It's if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to seeing speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:55:47]: If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu

Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited that you're back again this week. And today I don't have a guest. I am talking to you about some of the questions that I have gotten from over the time that we've been doing this podcast and over the years to try and help to answer some of your questions. And today, the question that we're going to be answering is, how many graduate programs should you apply to? If you've started researching graduate school, there's a moment that almost always happens. At first, it's exciting — you're exploring programs, imagining the possibilities, picturing yourself in a new career or stepping into a leadership role. You start bookmarking program pages, saving "how to apply" checklists, and telling yourself, Okay… I'm really doing this. And then… reality hits. You realize there are a lot of graduate programs out there. A LOT. You might find yourself asking: "Should I apply to just one program?" "What if I only apply to two and don't get in?" "What if I apply to ten and burn out halfway through?" "What's the smart number?" "What do people normally do?" If that's you — first, take a deep breath. You're not behind. You're not doing it wrong. And you're definitely not the only person trying to solve this puzzle. Today we're going to walk through this question together: How many graduate programs should you apply to? And I'll give you a clear recommendation — but even more importantly, I'll help you choose the right number for you. The honest answer: it depends… but not as much as you think I know "it depends" can be the most annoying answer ever, so let me say this upfront: Most prospective graduate students should apply to between 3 and 6 programs. That's not just a random number — it's the sweet spot where you: give yourself strong options, reduce risk of not getting in anywhere, and avoid overwhelming yourself with too many applications. But of course, there are reasons to apply to fewer… or more. So instead of giving you a number and sending you on your way, I want to help you decide: What's realistic for your time and energy What's appropriate for your field What's strategic for your goals What gives you the best chance at admission and the best chance at success once you're in Because here's what I tell students all the time: Getting accepted matters… but choosing the right program matters more. Start with this: What kind of graduate applicant are you? Before we get into numbers, I want to ask you a question. When you picture applying to grad school, are you someone who: 1) Wants a clear, simple plan You want 2–3 strong options, you want to focus, and you want to avoid the stress of "too many choices." 2) Wants options and flexibility You want to be strategic, apply broadly, compare offers, and decide later. 3) Is feeling uncertain and trying to "make sure" You're not totally confident yet — and applying to more programs feels like a way to protect yourself. There's no wrong answer here. But knowing which one you are helps you choose your best number. A helpful framework: Dream, Fit, and Safe One of the best ways to build your graduate school list is to include three categories: Dream Programs These are highly competitive or highly selective. You would LOVE to get in — but you know it's not guaranteed. Fit Programs These are strong matches. Your academic background, experience, and goals align well. Safe Programs These are programs where you have a strong likelihood of admission. You'd still be happy attending — and they reduce anxiety. Now here's the magic: A strong grad application plan includes a mix of all three. That way you avoid the two biggest mistakes applicants make: applying only to the most competitive programs applying randomly without a strategy So… how many programs should you apply to? Let's break it into realistic options. Option 1: Apply to 1–2 programs This is okay if… You are geographically limited (family, job, caregiver responsibilities) You are applying to a very specific program that only a few schools offer You are already connected to a faculty member or advisor You are 100% sure this is the right program for you You have a backup plan if you don't get in This can work. But I'll be honest — the risk is higher. Because even strong applicants get denied sometimes for reasons that have nothing to do with them. Examples include: limited cohort size funding availability faculty capacity too many qualified applicants So if you're applying to only one program, I encourage you to ask: "If I don't get in this cycle… what's my plan B?" If you have a good answer, applying to 1–2 programs can absolutely be a smart choice. Option 2: Apply to 3–4 programs (recommended for most people) This is the "balanced" plan. It works well when: You have limited time to apply You are working full-time You want to submit strong applications instead of rushing You want options, but you don't want overload A 3–4 program plan typically looks like this: 1 Dream 2 Fit 1 Safe If you want a straightforward, smart plan — this is it. Option 3: Apply to 5–6 programs (great if you want more options) This is also a strong approach — especially if: You're applying in a competitive field You're hoping for assistantships or funding You want flexibility in program format (online, hybrid, in-person) You want multiple choices for location or faculty A 5–6 program plan might look like: 2 Dream 2–3 Fit 1 Safe This gives you a strong chance of acceptance and the ability to compare offers. Option 4: Apply to 7+ programs This may be necessary if: You're applying to highly competitive programs (like clinical psych, funded PhDs, top-tier research programs) You're chasing assistantships and want to maximize funding chances You're applying nationally with flexible location But I'll warn you: applying to 7+ programs can quickly become too much. Here's why: Graduate applications aren't like undergrad applications. They usually require: detailed personal statements program-specific essays recommendation letters writing samples resumes/CVs sometimes interviews And each application needs to feel personal and intentional. If you apply to too many programs, the quality can drop — and that can cost you admission. So if you're going beyond 6 programs, be sure you have: a clear timeline support (like a mentor, advisor, coach) and enough bandwidth to write well Here's what most people forget: applications cost money and energy Let's talk about the "invisible cost." Yes — graduate apps can have fees. But the bigger cost is time and emotional energy. Because every program you apply to requires you to: imagine yourself there research faculty and curriculum write about your goals craft your future into words feel the hope and anxiety of "what if?" And that adds up. If you apply to 10 programs and burn out, you may end up submitting 10 weaker applications instead of 4 strong ones. I'd rather see you submit 3 applications you feel proud of than 8 rushed applications you dread. A Director's perspective: what matters more than the number Let me give you the most important advice I can offer as someone who reads applications and supports graduate students every day. The best number of programs to apply to is the number you can apply to WELL. That's it. A strong application feels like: clear goals a strong "why this program?" alignment with curriculum and faculty maturity and readiness polished writing And those things take time. So instead of asking: "How many programs should I apply to?" Try asking: "How many strong applications can I realistically submit in the next 6–10 weeks?" That will guide you to the right number almost every time. My recommendation (and a simple takeaway) If you're still unsure, here's the clearest guidance I can give: Apply to 4 programs if: you're working full-time you want to avoid burnout you want a focused approach Apply to 5–6 programs if: your field is competitive you want to maximize scholarship/assistantship possibilities you want options across format and location Apply to 2–3 programs if: your options are limited by location or lifestyle you're already highly confident and prepared you have a backup plan And if you're applying to 7+ programs, you're not wrong — just make sure you're set up to do it sustainably. One final encouragement If you're listening to this and feeling overwhelmed, I want you to know this: You don't have to have the perfect number. You just need a plan that protects your energy, increases your chances, and keeps you moving forward. Grad school isn't about chasing prestige — it's about choosing a program that fits your life and supports your goals. So yes, apply strategically. But also apply with hope. Because you're not just applying to programs. You're applying to a future you're building on purpose. And that's something to be proud of.

If you're considering graduate school, feeling uncertain about your career direction, or wondering how to overcome obstacles along the way, the latest episode of Victors in Grad School is an inspiring must-listen. In this candid conversation, Dr. Christopher Lewis welcomes Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse—faculty member at the University of Michigan-Flint and Director of the Inclusive History Project—to share her remarkable journey from first-generation college student to tenured professor. Themes of Resilience and Self-Discovery One of the strongest themes throughout the episode is the importance of self-discovery and adaptability. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse describes how she began her academic journey with aspirations to become an engineer, drawn by the promise of a lucrative career. However, after facing academic challenges and realizing her passion for humanities, she boldly changed her major to Women's Studies with a minor in Native American Studies. Her honest reflection on the embarrassment and fear of changing majors—and the eventual pride in pursuing a path she loved—serves as a powerful reminder that the undergraduate years are a time for self-discovery. As Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse puts it, "undergrad is really about self-discovery and figuring out what you are passionate about and what you're good at." Finding Your 'Why' and Keeping Education a Priority The podcast explores the critical importance of understanding your motivation, or "why," when pursuing graduate education. Facing academic probation early on, Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse shares how establishing her goals helped her prioritize her studies over distractions. She emphasizes the necessity of delayed gratification, citing how sacrifices made in the present can lead to future rewards. For anyone balancing work, school, and life, her advice resonates: "To do well and achieve at a high level, education can't be your side hustle. It needs to be your primary focus." Mentorship, Support, and Building Community A standout lesson is the value of seeking help and building a support network. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse encourages students to engage with faculty, campus resources, and mentors—even those who may not share similar backgrounds. She credits her success to mentors who pushed her with compassion and honesty, reminding listeners that real growth comes from accountability and empathy. Navigating Change and Overcoming Challenges From moving across states, adapting to new cultures, and overcoming imposter syndrome as a first-generation student, Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse shares how each experience built the resilience necessary for graduate school and beyond. Her candid stories about culture shock, isolation, and finding her community in Michigan are both relatable and motivating for anyone facing similar transitions. Final Takeaway This episode of Victors in Grad School offers invaluable insights on overcoming setbacks, embracing change, and building meaningful connections. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse's journey is a testament to persistence and the lasting rewards of pursuing a path that aligns with both passion and purpose. If you're navigating your own educational journey, tune in for encouragement, practical advice, and inspiration to keep going—no matter where you start or what challenges you face. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:00:08]: Success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, I love being able to talk to you about the journey that you're on. And it is a journey. Each person that is thinking about graduate school will go through a different experience and will be on their own journey as that leads them to a specific program, a specific degree, and then beyond the program into the world of work and what you plan to do with that degree itself. And every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can share some of the journeys that they've been on, whether they are currently in graduate school, graduated a while back, or whatever their journey was. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:02]: But each person can share with you something a little bit different. So today I'm really excited to be able to introduce you to a new guest. Dr. Lisa Laperouse is with us today. And Dr. Laparouse is a faculty member at the University of Michigan, Flint, but she's also also the director of the Inclusive History Project at the University of Michigan, Flint. And she has her own graduate school journey that led her from being in California to Arizona to Michigan and being here at the University of Michigan, Flint. And I'm really excited for her to be able to reflect back and share some of her own experiences with us today. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:43]: Dr. Laperouse, thanks so much for being here today. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:01:46]: Thank you so much for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:48]: So I want to take you back in time and I want to go back because I know that you did your undergraduate degree at the University of California, Davis. And at some point during that time at UC Davis, you made a decision. You made a decision because you were getting a Bachelor of Arts degree in Women's Studies with a minor in Native American Studies. And at some point you made a decision to keep going and to go on further for a graduate degree. Bring me back to that point and what was going through your head as you were making those decisions? Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:02:20]: Well, let me give you a little bit of background information. So I'm a first generation college student. And so the idea was sold to me early on. In elementary school, we went to Mott Field where they have NASA Aerospace, and they constantly said, if you went to college, you'd make a lot of money. So in fifth grade, I was like, sign me up. And I was very Impressed with my mock fields, I was like, I'm going to be an engineer. Engineers make great money. And so that was my thought process through middle school, through high school, until I went to college. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:02:55]: I went to college and I was a high performer at unfortunately a low performing school. So what that means is I did not have the best academic preparation for university life. And I think I started out having this idea of, well, you know, I played sports, I was class president, you know, all I have to do is go to school. So this is going to be easy. In my first semester I was on academic probation and I quickly had to change up my study habits and my focus because I thought, oh, this is so embarrassing, I'm the first to go and I'm going to be the first to get kicked out. So part of that though was I was still interested in pursuing engineering. And engineering requires you to take a lot of advanced math courses. And as a high schooler, I had the option. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:03:51]: My school did not offer calculus. If you wanted to take calculus, you had to be bused to a different school at 7 o' clock in the morning before school actually started. And I was class president and I had the option to take the leadership class with my friends or calculus. And I made the decision to hang out with my friends in leadership rather than calculus. So the first time I ever saw calculus was in a quarter system. So U of M Flint is, is on a semester system. A quarter system changes classes every about seven weeks. That is not how you want to experience calculus for your first time. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:04:28]: There were a lot of tears, a lot of office hours, and by my second semester I had realized that I can continue down this pathway, but it was going to be very difficult. I was rocking these humanities, I was doing really well and we'd have to read like seven books a semester. And I thought, well, this is going to be embarrassing. I told everybody it was going to be an engineer. I had the T shirt, but I ended up needing to change my major and then I changed it to Women and Gender Studies. What's now Women and Gender Studies was gender studies then. And to be honest with you, I didn't know what other job there would be other than becoming a professor with that job. So. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:05:13]: And I also was embarrassed that I had to change my major. And I had told everyone I was going to be this great engineer. So now I said if I tell them I'm going to become a professor without really having any idea what I was talking about. I thought that would be acceptable in my grandfather who was very Important to me. I grew up for the majority of my first 15 years of life with my grandparents. His response was, well, that's not too shabby. So I got the seal of approval to pursue that. So my process was, okay, I need to go to graduate school and become a professor. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:05:48]: But again, I really didn't know what that meant. And also at the time that I was studying undergrad, this was the time that affirmative action was being challenged. Ethnic studies, any type of branches out of history that wasn't just U.S. history were being challenged, like the validity of those. And so I was also thinking about job prospects. Was there going to be a department available to me to work? And so when I went into my master's program, which was at the University of Arizona, it was a joint program between Mexican American studies and public health. And then again, there was still challenges about the utility of a Mexican American studies degree. So when I decided to go for my PhD, I decided to go into a more traditional, direct relationship between the, the DEGR and an employment opportunity. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:06:45]: So I went into public health. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:47]: Every person goes on when they're thinking about going to graduate school. They, they go through their own journey to determine where do I want to go, what do I want to do, what type of field do I want to study? Kind of what you were talking about. And you ended up at the University of Arizona. So talk to me a little bit about that journey for yourself. What was going through your head as you were looking at different programs and trying to determine what would be the best fit and what made the University of Arizona the best fit for you? Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:07:13]: So I think the undergrad is really about self discovery and figuring out what are you really passionate about and what are you good at. And I had taken a special elective course with somebody that was in public health. I didn't even know that existed. I thought the only way to study health was to become a doctor. And I was not interested in that. I am something that's called a sympathetic vomiter. If you vomit, I'm going to vomit. I have a very weak stomach. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:07:45]: I just knew that I was not cut out for that. But learning about myself, learning about history, learning about my community, really was exciting to me. I was very interested to that. And that work I would complete first. And so that's some of the things you want to look for is what are you gravitating towards, what are you doing really well in school? What do you leave to the side because you're like, oh, this is agonizing. And that may mean you Know, unfortunately, changing your major, but the benefit of going to college is that you do get to pick your career. Like for me, most of my family do jobs because they, that's what they have to do to pay the bills. I have the privilege of doing something not only to pay the bills, but something I enjoy and get fulfillment out of. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:08:32]: So when I was making that transition, I applied to both PhD programs and master's programs and I was pretty defeated. How I decided to go to Arizona was I only got accepted to one program, so it was an easy choice and I had a very good gpa. But I think for undergrads that are thinking about graduate school, something to think about is PhD programs have really small acceptance. They accept cohorts, and a large cohort is 10 to 15 people. And they're mostly going to select, I would say probably 90% of them, if not more, will select somebody that already has a Master's. So it's important to look at the Master's programs as well and things that align with your service, things that align with your grades and any type of clubs that you did, because then they can see that you have this outstanding interest in that area for your graduate school. So for me, I had done an honors thesis in preparation to try and get accepted into a graduate program, knowing that this would give me some research experience so that I would be a more attractive candidate and hopefully get a position as a research assistant in graduate school. How I learned about the Mexican American Studies program at the University of Arizona was I was on campus. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:09:53]: I used to hang out on campus all the time and there was a poster on a bulletin board and it was not well publicized. And so they were actually quite surprised to see an out of state student applied to their position. And I was part of their first graduating class and it was a great fit. But some of the things that I did consider that some people may want to also think about is I did know that I wanted to go to graduate school. I had talked to a lot of people about it and there were lots of people that told me that they planned to go back to graduate school. But I noticed that they were five and 10 years out and still hadn't did that. And I was like, I don't want to be in that situation. Also, I was very cognizant of, unfortunately my parents did not qualify for school loans. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:10:41]: So all of my education was funded by myself, myself taking out school loans, scholarships. So I was very aware of after six months those school loans were going to kick in and I was going to have to start paying those back. And I didn't want to get a job and start a lifestyle that my income would support and then not want to go back to being a starving student again. So I was like, let me just stay a poor student all the way through and just get this done early on and not promise myself I'm going to do it and then never complete that goal. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:15]: And then after that master's degree, you went on and you continued to get Another degree, a PhD in health behavior and Health Education at the University of Michigan. That's a far distance away from where you did your bachelor's and your master's degree. And you went from warmer weather to very cold weather in the winters and having to adjust and really push yourself out of a comfort zone of being in an area where you probably were more comfortable and you knew kind of the culture and you. And you felt a part of the culture where then you moved to a brand new area. So talk to me about that decision process and how you ended up at the University of Michigan. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:11:58]: So when I was an undergrad, I did not graduate with high honors. And so I made it a personal mission that I was going to graduate with honors in my master's program, and I did graduate with a 4.0. However, they did not have high honors at my university, which I thought I was going to get the cum laude distinction, but the school didn't allow that. I should say, too, it's so important to have that high gpa because I did not test well on my gre, my graduate record exam. Same thing with the sat. And we know that one of the highest predictors of those scores is your area zip code. So it has to do a lot with the resources that are available to an individual. So, you know, I think I faced a lot of mental challenges, emotional challenges, about whether or not I fit in a university, because I just didn't have the same pedigree or the same experiences as others. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:13:06]: And it did take me having to think things through and remember that, no, I'm the one that's sitting in those classes. I'm the one that's doing those exams that I also deserve a place there. But that has remained an ongoing challenge. You know, I'm currently, I'm the only tenured Latina professor that I know on our campus, and that's a lonely space to be in. And that comes with some challenges. If I start getting heated in a meeting and are they going to stereotype me as the spicy Latina or whatever? So. So I got a 4.0. So what that meant was I applied to the top five public health programs in the country and I was accepted into Michigan. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:13:48]: And it's, I'll be honest with you, I only got into one program and that was U of M. And so I'm a religious person. I was like, okay, God has directed me. He only gave me one option for my master's program and one option for my PhD. And so I had only been to the snow once in my life before moving to Michigan. I didn't own a stitch of black clothing because you don't wear black when you live in Arizona. I only had tank tops and flip flops and shorts. So I was completely ill prepared to be in Michigan. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:14:23]: Also living on the west coast. I'm from the Bay Area. There's a lot of ethnic diversity. Did not that experience that so much in Michigan in Ann Arbor, even though Ann Arbor is a large campus. So that was also challenging in my PhD program too. That was the first time that I had ever been around a lot of students of color that were wealthy and were not first generation students. So it took me some time to kind of find my people in my support network that I had some commonalities. And there were actually a group of us Latinas from California that were first gen that hung out and kind of supported each other. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:15:04]: But yeah, it was definitely a culture shock. So I mean everything I remember when I, when I got here, everybody was driving American made cars. You know, because you have Ford, you have GM here and back in the Bay Area everybody drove Hondas. And I was like, where are all the Hondas? Where are the people with the piercings? Where's all the colored hair? Like I was just so used to a different way of life. And so I think that can be an unexpected challenge of how hard it's going to be to kind of integrate yourself into a new kind of environment. And so that does take getting outside your comfort zone and meeting people, joining clubs, getting out of the house and trying to find your community so that you do have that support. Because fortunately for me, as much as my family wanted to be supportive, they had never gone through the experiences that I had in college. So it was really hard for them to wrap their head around what the challenges were or why I was so upset about not doing well on the exam. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:16:07]: And actually my mom had asked me to leave college a couple of times because I called home crying saying it was so hard. And she was like, if this is going to be this distressing to you, Then maybe you should leave. And I thought, oh my God, what bad advice. Like I'll suck it up, you know, so it's difficult, but it's not impossible. Find your people. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:25]: So you found success in your master's degree, your doctorate degree. And as you moved into those different places, there are different expectations and different expectations from being an undergraduate student to being a master's student, to being a doctoral student. Talk to me about those transitions for yourself. And as you think back to the transition to the University of Arizona, the University of Michigan, and to the different programs and the different expectations of faculty, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into the program? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entirety of those programs? And it may be different at both the master's and doctoral level. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:17:09]: I think the very first thing I had to do, especially after that first semester being on academic program probation, is understanding my why. Why was I there? Why was this important? What was that long term goal and making sure that my education was my priority. It couldn't be socializing with my friends, it couldn't be. Like I said at the time, there was affirmative action being challenged. It wasn't sleeping on the steps and doing the hunger strike, it was going to rallies and stuff. But my primary goal was to graduate. And so that really meant prioritizing and making sacrifices to ensure that that was always at the forefront of what I was doing. And I would have to say that that was the case all throughout. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:17:55]: You know, when I had a lot of friends that didn't go to college and they were buying fancy cars and they always had money and I was like trying to scrape together 20 bucks to buy a pizza. And I thought, wow, like they have these great lifestyles. What am I doing? And you really have to accept, accept delayed gratification because eventually the tables did turn where that nice sports car, well, they're still driving it 10 years later and you know, they took a lot longer to move out of their parents homes. And so the fruits of your labor do show up, but it's not necessarily as quickly as you'd like. And so coming to terms with that, I think is also important for myself. I've lived across the country for a very long time from my family. And I had to again understand for myself why that sacrifice was necessary to keep going. Because it's hard. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:18:57]: You know, I missed all the birthdays, all the big celebrations, but again, I had specific goal that I had in mind and I kept that as A priority. And that's not to say I never went home, but it wasn't the same as living in the same city or the same state where you can go home for the barbecues and all this other stuff. You know, there were a lot of things that I did miss. So I think the delayed gratification, I think continuing to prioritize your education as first as a faculty person, I know a lot of students have to work full time. I had to work also, but I worked on campus. I worked jobs that were, I would say, complimentary to my work schedule. Because to do well and to achieve like at a high level, education can't be your side hustle. It needs to be your primary focus. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:19:48]: And sometimes it's not the right time to go to school. I'm not saying that you're not cut out for school because if you would have looked at my profile in high school, child of a teenage mother, you know, I had all the indicators that I would not be a college, let alone a PhD, somebody with a PhD. So I think also you have to find the self esteem in yourself to keep going and the courage because there will be people, instructors included, that'll say that maybe you're not cut out for this, but you have to work with the tenacity and a resilience to continue to push through. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:25]: So as you think about your graduate degree and you think about the different degrees that you received along the way, you started in one area, you ended up in public health. And as you reflect back on your undergrad, your grad, your doctoral degrees, talk to me about the interplay with those degrees. Because not everybody, when they go and get an undergraduate degree is going to get a job specifically in that specific area. You may end up in a very different place than where you began. So talk to me about that journey for yourself and the learning and how it built upon each other to where you ended in teaching in the area that you're teaching now. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:21:06]: I really kind of think as an undergraduate education as the mechanism to help you identify credible information and to really be a critical thinker. This is the time where you really learn how to identify sources of information and evaluate them to figure out are there motives behind the person that is advertising this or making this statement. So you become a critical thinker and those critical thinking systems skills are applicable in any type of position. I feel like in the master's program, now that you have identified where to find information, you have a better command of knowledge in your specific areas. So then you can start to really Craft important questions about the gaps that remain there, and start to move science forward by pursuing new kind of pathways to understanding certain phenomena. And, you know, for people that have historically been excluded or underrepresented in universities, their voices, their perspectives are important because we may not have heard them before. So I think the first thing is about kind of discovery and finding information. The second part in the master's is really about beginning to start to ask our own questions. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:22:30]: And then in the PhD, I think it's about creating knowledge. It's not just asking the questions, but now pursuing those questions and helping to find answers, moving science again forward and challenging existing thought processes. So with the inclusive history project, one of the things that we do is there are narratives that are put forward and, you know, they're evidence based. But one of the things that we do is say, well, whose voices are represented and whose voices are missing? And is this a comprehensive understanding of these events or are there perspectives that are missing and maybe can give us a better and more nuanced understanding? So again, it's continuing to be a critical thinker, but it's also learning how to use the skills and apply them to challenge or to expand what we know. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:26]: Now, as you think about graduate students or individuals thinking about becoming a graduate student, and you think back to your, your own experiences, what are some tips that you might offer others that are considering graduate school, no matter what they are going into, that would help them to find success sooner? Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:23:44]: Ask for help. That is what faculty are here for. And as faculty go on these retreats and we think very deeply about the courses that we teach, the content, the textbooks, I think students would be really surprised how much thought and time goes into planning these things. And when we've gone to these retreats and they ask what inspires you? Everybody mentions students. So most of us do this job because we really find it fulfilling and we like to work with students. And so I know for myself, I was very intimidated being in the academic environment. I didn't speak in class until my junior year of undergrad because I was so terrified of saying something dumb. Now we have a hard time keeping me quiet in any kind of situation. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:24:33]: But you cannot do this alone. You need to have support. And sometimes your friends or your peers are not the best support for you, because sometimes it's the blind leading the blind. And so it's so important to get to know your resources on campus as well as your faculty. And don't wait. It's so much easier for faculty to help you when you approach them sooner rather than later. And, you know, for myself, I had a lot of life happen to me when I was in school. And so, you know, find that person who's not just going to be a cheerleader and tell you everything's great, but somebody find a good mentor that is going to be honest with you, hold you to accountability, but also do that with empathy and compassion. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:25:22]: And related to that, I think that I was under the impression that to find a good mentor, the mentor had to be similar to me. They had to be a woman. They had to be, you know, Latina. And I joke about this, but I've had mentors and I've had tormentors. And the tormentors were people that really just broke me down and said, you know, these are all the things you're doing wrong. And it was really defeating. And one of my very best mentors was Dr. Woody Neighbors at U of M, and he's an African American male. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:25:58]: And so I say this to say, don't discount somebody just because they don't share the same background as you. Find somebody that is invested in your success. But again, that's going to hold you to a high standard, because those relationships will really help you when you do encounter challenges. And that is inevitable in the PhD program. Sometimes you have people that have been successful all the way through. They rock undergrad, they rock their Masters program, and then they get into the PhD program, and all of a sudden they're starting to have some challenges. And that can be really emotionally tolling because you see yourself as this very successful person. And so, again, it's really important to have that support to make sure that you just don't go, don't complete your degree, because that happens a lot, too. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:26:46]: So being connected, I think, is so core to being well. And I know everybody loves the online environment, but making the commitment to go to campus to be involved in different things, you're only going to be in school for a small blip of your life. And so it's worth the investment, because this is where in my PhD program, I met so many people that they're writing books. I mean, they are doing fabulous things. I can use them for job references, job leads. You never know where that relationship could possibly take you. So it's worth investing that time and effort beyond just the classroom. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:25]: Well, Elise, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. And it is definitely something that I think that everybody can learn from, because all of us go through these ups and downs, and it's kind of a roller coaster as you go through graduate school and hopefully it's more ups than downs. But there are always going to be those peaks and valleys and you shared some of your own as you went through your own experience. But I truly want to say thank you for sharing your journey today and I wish you all the best. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:27:53]: Thank you so much. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:55]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradofficemflint.edu.

Are you thinking about graduate school, wondering how others have navigated the challenges and triumphs of advanced education? The latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" is a must-listen for anyone considering the journey. Host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Melodee Hills, a driven lifelong learner who shares her honest, inspiring path from undergraduate degrees through an MBA and now towards a Doctorate of Business Administration (DBA) at the University of Michigan-Flint. From the outset, Melodee Hills opens up about what first inspired her to continue beyond her bachelor's degree. She shares how she found a passion for learning while balancing a full-time job and recognized the importance of momentum—"school isn't getting any cheaper, and I'm not getting any younger," she notes. Her story is a powerful reminder that sometimes the best time to push ahead is when you're already in motion. The conversation dives deep into the "why" behind going to graduate school—a recurring theme in the episode. Melodee Hills encourages listeners to identify their core reason for considering graduate studies, emphasizing that a clear sense of purpose will carry you through the tough times. "Once I focused on my why, all of that other stuff just flew out the window," she shares, recounting how filtering out "noise" from naysayers and self-doubt allowed her to stay committed, even when balancing demanding work periods and academic deadlines. Another key takeaway from the episode is the importance of adaptability and self-reflection. Melodee Hills offers practical strategies for managing the ever-shifting landscape of graduate school, highlighting the need for boundaries, constant adjustment, and supportive communication with loved ones and mentors. She also touches on battling imposter syndrome—a challenge many graduate students face—and how building relationships with both peers and professors helped her find her footing in a new academic environment. This episode isn't just about hardship; it's about growth and transformation. Melodee Hills shares how her approach to problem-solving has evolved—from impulsive reactions to thoughtful research and big-picture thinking. Whether you're contemplating graduate studies or are already on the path, the wisdom and encouragement you'll hear in this episode will help you clarify your goals, anticipate challenges, and find actionable advice for success. Don't miss the full conversation—listen to the latest "Victors in Grad School" episode and get inspired to find your own path forward! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victors in Grad School. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:03]: Where we have conversations with students, alumni. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:06]: And experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, as always, every week, I love being able to talk to you about the journey that you're on. And it is a journey because every individual that is thinking about going to graduate school, maybe you're in graduate school, maybe you're already through partially and seen that light at the end of the tunnel. No matter where you are, you are on a journey. And at each point in that journey, there are things that you can do to be able to find success sooner. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:45]: That's why this podcast exists. This podcast exists to help you to find some tips, some strategies, some. Some hints from people that have gone forth before you, that might be in graduate school now, that may have gone to graduate school in the past and can share some of what they learned along the way with you. That's why every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can share those experiences with you. And today we've got another great guest. Melody Hills is with us. And Melody is a member of the. And Melody is a DBA student at the University of Michigan, Flint. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:20]: And she has already gone through a graduate degree once. Now she's doing it again for a different degree. And we're going to talk about that journey that she went on from getting that bachelor's degree, going to a master's, now going for a doctorate degree and talking to you about some of the things that she's learned along the way. Melody, thanks so much for being here today. Melodee Hills [00:01:40]: I am happy to be here. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:41]: It is my pleasure. Love being able to have you here and to talk about your journey and what I really want to do. First and foremost, that I want to take you back in time. So I know you did your bachelor's degree at Ashford University, and at some point, at some point during that time when you were at Ashford or maybe sometime after that, you made a decision. You made a decision that you were going to continue that education and go from getting that Bachelor of Arts in Organizational Management and continuing that to get a Master of Science in Business Administration. So talk to me about that and bring me back to that point. What was going through your head and what made you decide that graduate school was the thing to do at that point in your life? Melodee Hills [00:02:21]: So back when I did my bachelor's degree. I was really trying to finish because I had been in school for over a decade at that point, and I needed to get to that finish line to finish my bachelor's. But then while I was doing my undergrad, I said, I actually enjoy this. And at the time I was working, I was a staff accountant, and school isn't getting any cheaper and I'm not getting any younger. So I. And I was actually enjoying the process. I love learning. So while I was in that mode of going to school and working full time, I said, I'm just gonna keep going before so I don't lose this momentum. Melodee Hills [00:02:54]: So after I finished my bachelor's degree, it took me, I think it was that summer. It was just a few months later, it was less than a year later that I signed up and continued on with my master's degree just to really keep it going. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:05]: So I know that back a few years back, you made another decision. You made a decision that you are going to continue that education and can go back into the learning mode to be able to get that terminal doctorate degree in business, the doctorate of Business Administration, or the DBA degree. And not everybody wants to do that. Not everybody wants to jump back into education after they have a master's degree. I'm sure that you could have stayed with the master's degree and been plenty fine with your work and continued on. So bring me back to that point and what made you decide to shake it up and go back to graduate school to work on that doctorate degree for yourself? Melodee Hills [00:03:43]: Sure. Having a doctorate degree has always just been a goal. It's always been a personal goal. And honestly, when I finished my master's degree, I said, I am never doing this again. I am never going back to school. Academically, I'm done. But then, you know, things change. Life changes and priorities shift. Melodee Hills [00:03:58]: And I got to a point in my career where I needed to continue my own growth. I was stalled in my career, and I wanted to pivot into teaching. I wanted to pivot into getting higher into leadership, and the stars aligned, and everything just happened to line up. And I started doing my research, and I found this program, and it worked. You know, I talked to my husband about it. I talked to those that I love and are close to me, and they said, yes, this is perfect for you. You're this lifelong learner. Do it. Melodee Hills [00:04:25]: So through my soul searching and a lot of phone calls and just thinking about it, I said, yes, this is the right thing to do for me and my life. Right now to advance myself personally advance myself career wise. It just aligned. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:36]: So you did decide to attend the University of Michigan Flint for that inaugural cohort of the program when it first started. And there are many DBA programs across the nation and you're actually located on the other side of the country from where this program is located. So talk to me about that journey for yourself and that search process for yourself and what made you finally decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the right program for you? Melodee Hills [00:05:03]: Yes, I did research a bunch, a bunch of schools, all reputable, great reputations, legacy. So Michigan, of course, its reputation, its legacy. It has a strong alumni association. It's been around forever, it's not going anywhere. And full transparency. The other ones were required an in person residency either two, three, four times a year, which was fine, you know, to fly to wherever that campus may be. But because the Michigan program was 100% online, that really worked for me as much as I travel personally as for working full time and just the other things I do, the 100% online was really what made me say yes, this is, this is the, this will be the best decision for me right now and in my current lifestyle. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:47]: Now, when you transition into graduate degrees, there is definitely transitions. The way in which you're educated is different, the way in which the expectations that faculty have of you are different. And it's different at every level, in every type of degree. So talk to me about those transitions that you went through and what you had to do not only at the beginning when you were transitioning in to your different degrees at the different levels, but what did you have to do to be able to maintain the success that you found as you were transitioning in, to transition through that program and to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate degree. Melodee Hills [00:06:23]: It's constant reflection to see what works. So what works for me may not work for the next person or I may talk to one of my classmates or someone and what works for them won't work for me. And what worked for me last month may not work for me this month, you know, so it's just a constant looking and seeing where I am now. Someone just said to me recently, be where your feet are. And that to me just really resonated to just be where my feet are and okay, this is. I need to focus more. I have a paper, I have a test, I have an exam. Whatever it may be, I need to focus more this week than I did last week and just always be willing and flexible and fluid to be able to make the Adjustments needed and not be so stuck on an expected outcome because anything can happen. Melodee Hills [00:07:04]: So really just being open and fluid and being willing to adapt now, also. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:09]: When you go into a graduate degree, and I'm kind of lumping both of your degrees together, but I know that it's different at the master's and at the doctor. And as you move into a graduate degree, there are mindset shifts that you have to go through personally that help you to be able to find success. And you mentioned kind of the reflection, but I'm sure that there's some other mindset shifts that you had to go through to be able to get yourself in a place to get yourself in a place that would allow for you to be successful in the graduate program in general. So what mindset shifts did you feel like you had to go through at the master's level, at the doctorate level now that helped you succeed? Melodee Hills [00:07:46]: Mind shift. So I'll speak at the doctorate level. I, I didn't know that imposter syndrome existed until I got into this doctorate program. So that whole thing of, should I be here? Am I worthy to be here? You know, looking at certain people that have. Are in the program and just comparing myself to them, listening to other people tell me, you don't need that. Why are you doing this? And I really had to take a step back and eliminate that noise, because that's all it was. It's just noise in my head and find my own why. What's my why of what I'm doing this. Melodee Hills [00:08:21]: And once I focused on my why, all of that other stuff just flew out the window. And it was a shift of this is why I'm doing this. This is what's important to me and why I'm. I'm going to finish. And so I would just say filtering out and silencing the noise and the naysayers and all of, all of that other stuff going on to understand why I was doing this. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:42]: For me, yeah, that's important because you do have to always have in your mind's eye the end result, the goal at the end of the tunnel. I always talk about the light at the end of the tunnel because a lot of times when you're going through a graduate program, you do have to look for that light because sometimes it gets challenging. There will be challenges that you have to overcome when you're going through degrees. Talk to me about challenges for yourself. And maybe there's. Maybe there was one, maybe there was two. Are there any examples that you could share with me of challenges that you had to overcome personally. And what did you have to do to do that? Melodee Hills [00:09:15]: Working in accounting? I was a corporate accounting manager and we have month end close, quarter end close, year end close. And they don't care that I have a paper due for this course. They don't care that I have, you know, what I have going on. So trying to balance the time commitment that I needed for work and making sure I did a good job at work, as well as the time commitment that I needed for this program in particular. Because it's a lot, you know, there's a lot of reading, it's a lot of writing, it's a lot of research. So it did require a lot of time. So I would say that would be that just to understand, understand that part of it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:49]: You know, one other thing that comes to mind, and I talk to students about this all the time, is as you enter different degrees and you insert yourself into that education, sometimes that imposter syndrome creeps in and self doubt in regard to how you feel as a student and whether you feel that you're good enough or you should be there, that you can do what you're trying to do. Talk to me about imposter syndrome and how that impacted you and what you had to do to overcome that. Melodee Hills [00:10:17]: For this program in particular, since we were the inaugural program, I didn't have anyone to talk to for an example or to say, hey, what is this? Like, I jumped into this. I finished my master's degree. Gosh, it seems like a lifetime ago. So I'm jumping back into academics, I'm jumping into a doctorate program. I'm learning what my cohorts do for a living. And I'm like, my goodness, how did I even make the cut? You know, so it was like all of those types of things. And then once I got in, I just immersed myself. I became an ambassador for the program, I became a mentor for the program. Melodee Hills [00:10:49]: I started just learning my cohorts and just talking to them. I learned that I know things that they didn't, you know, so we just kind of worked with each other on each other's strengths to help each other out. So it just. In the beginning, it was so scary because I just didn't know what to expect. But then as I kind of got my footing, it took about a semester, I mean, to be honest, to really get my footing and understand what I was doing and how I was doing it and understand the professors and how everything worked. But that went away eventually. But yes, it was definitely a thing of why, how why am I here? How am I here? But I got my footing. It's okay now. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:24]: Now, you've already mentioned the fact that in going into graduate school, especially when you're working and you have family and friends and, and you're wearing lots of different hats, there is this balance that you have to find. So tell me about how you found balance in balancing school, work, family and other commitments that you might have had thus far during graduate school. Melodee Hills [00:11:44]: I just had to make sure I set the time and boundaries. Boundaries are so important with this. Like I had to set boundaries with my home. My husband and I agreed we were going to move my office space into the spare bedroom so that I could shut the door and so that I could have that time to really just focus. And that's just so important. So I would really just say communication. I have this paper due and I only have X amount of time before my next seminar to go over the proposal. So huge boundaries and communication and then execution. Melodee Hills [00:12:17]: Because it's nothing if you say, okay, this is what I'm going to do, and then you don't do it. So, you know, it's discipline. It's so much involved, especially working 100% remote and being home and you're on your own time and making sure you hit your own deadlines. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:29]: Now, you also mentioned the fact that when you went into this program, there was no one else ahead of you. So you didn't always have that support network and those people to draw from. And it is so important to build relationships, build relationships with others in the program, but also faculty and peers. So talk to me about how you built those relations, those relationships, even though there wasn't a class ahead of you and how did you build those relationships with faculty or other students and how that was impactful for you as a student. Melodee Hills [00:12:59]: So our cohort, again, we were all kind of figuring this out together. So we would talk to each other. We have a group text or WhatsApp group that we communicate through. But I. Another thing that resonated with me at my job was trust but verify. So as the communication will be going on in that group, that's great. But I just got to the point where I said, I'm going to actually talk to the professors about this. I want to make sure that I am clear on this expectation from the person who actually is giving the assignment or given the instruction. Melodee Hills [00:13:32]: So I would set up those one on one calls, I would reach out, I would email. Is this right? Is this what the expectation is? Am I doing this the right way. And I just started building that relationship and that openness and you know, certain professors I got closer to than others where I felt more comfortable to reach out to. Dr. White is amazing, Dr. Kelly is amazing, Dr. Asta is amazing. So there's this certain people that I started reaching out to more than others. Melodee Hills [00:13:55]: But once I got comfortable with that, because again, coming from corporate and then jumping into academic, these folks that have all these papers written and all these letters behind their name, you know, it was a little intimidating at first, but everyone was so open and so wanting to help and so accommodating and so responsive that it just became easy. And I just became really comfortable with not only bouncing things off my cohorts, but also just checking in with the professors. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:17]: Now you've gone through an mba, you're almost through your dba. As you think about graduate school and what you've learned along the way, how it's challenged you and pushed you in different directions, how would you say that graduate school has changed the way that you think, work or approach problems? Melodee Hills [00:14:33]: I went from being very impulsive to saying, wait a minute, let me think about that. And actually looking for things and finding information on my own and just being a more rounded thinker, broad just looking at things big picture. They say that 10,000 foot view, which I hate incorporate, but you know, I mean, but that's really the thing, you know, instead of just seeing things in this small lens, it makes me take a step back and say, wait, there's more to this. And what is that? I'm always looking stuff up now, you know, if I see something like what does this mean? Oh no, what is that? Oh, you know, so. So yeah, that's definitely been the change from being, I don't want to call it small minded. I'll just say again that small lens to big picture and trying to get the full perspective and the full picture of things. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:20]: As you think about other students that are thinking about graduate school, whether it's an mba, a DBA or something completely different. And as you think back to your own graduate school education, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner? Melodee Hills [00:15:35]: Like I said earlier, find your why. Why do you want to do this? And is this something that you can finish? Because one, it's a huge financial comm to start something and bail or quit or whatever may happen a year or a year and a half because you still have this bill, right? So one, figure out your why and make sure that it's something you can see through to the end. Talk to those that you love and trust and those that will give you honestly, both sides of it. Okay. Well, for Melody, you love to do xyz. Is this something that you can continue during ABC and just think about those things, positive and negative? It can't always be good. There's gonna be some challenges. And then again, just. Melodee Hills [00:16:14]: It's an investment. It is for time and money. Just talk to your job. If you're working full time, if you're not, if you're already a student, just understand the full picture of it. To set yourself up for success, to make sure that this is something that you can take and find your support group so that you can make it to that finish line. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:35]: Well, Melody, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today. I know it's not over. You still got a little bit of time left before you walk across that stage and get hooded for your doctorate degree. And I'm really excited to be able to see you as you finish this journey for yourself and see where you go from there. But I really appreciate you sharing your story today and I wish you all the best. Melodee Hills [00:16:56]: Thank you, Dr. Lewis. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:57]: The university of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that are that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgrad officemflint.edu.

Graduate school is more than just the next step in your academic journey—it's a transformational experience that brings both challenges and opportunities. In this week's episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis welcomes Joslynn Walsh, a first-year student in the Physician Assistant (PA) program at the University of Michigan-Flint, to share her real-world insights on what it truly takes to thrive as a graduate student. From the outset, Joslynn Walsh recounts her unique introduction to the PA profession during her online freshman year, amid the restrictions of the Covid-19 pandemic. She highlights how proactive research, virtual events, and community panels shaped her decision to pursue a career as a Physician Assistant. Joslynn's experience resonates with anyone who's had to adapt and find clarity in uncertain times. A key theme running through Joslynn's story is the value of community. She chose UM-Flint's PA program not just for its convenient location, but for its deep connections with the Flint community. Opportunities for service learning—like volunteering at local organizations and engaging with outreach programs—set this program apart, allowing students to make a real difference while preparing for their careers. As Joslynn notes, "It's important to be present in your community, not just talk the talk, but walk the walk." Transitioning from undergraduate to graduate school isn't without its challenges. Joslynn openly discusses her own hurdles, from buying a home to adjusting to her husband's military commitments—all while starting a rigorous academic program. Her biggest takeaway? The importance of flexibility. Graduate school, especially in the medical field, demands adaptability, perseverance, and a willingness to embrace the unexpected. Impostor syndrome is another reality addressed on the podcast. For Joslynn, early experiences in simulated patient encounters and urgent care settings helped her overcome self-doubt and step confidently into her role. She emphasizes that such experiences help students get comfortable with the uncomfortable—an essential skill for any future medical provider. Finally, Joslynn offers sage advice to those considering graduate school: do your research, connect with professionals in your field, and strive for a healthy work-life balance. Above all, she reminds us that success isn't just about academic achievement—it's about caring for yourself and your community. Want to hear more about the journey, the challenges, and the victories? Listen to this episode of "Victors in Grad School" and be inspired to make your own mark in graduate school and beyond. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, you and I are on a journey together. We have this opportunity every week to talk, to be able to help you in finding that success that you want and in this journey that you're on. And it is a journey because each person goes through a different process that you have to go through to be able to figure out for yourself what do you have to do to be able to not only apply, get accepted, but then once you transition into a graduate school, what do you have to do to be successful? And every week, I love being able to introduce you to different people with different experiences that can give you some perspective on that and what they've learned from along the way. And today we got another great guest. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:01]: Joslynn Walsh is with us today. And Joslynn is a first year student in the physician assistant program at the University of Michigan, Flint. And I am really excited to be able to talk to her about her own journey and what she's learned thus far. And she's currently in the program, so she's still learning and it's definitely not something that is done. She's going to continue to learn. Joslynn Walsh [00:01:24]: So. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:24]: So I'm really excited to introduce her to you and to have her on the show today. Joslynn, thanks so much for being here. Joslynn Walsh [00:01:31]: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be able to chat. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:34]: Well, I'm excited to have you here as well, to be able to learn from your experiences. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint, and at some point in you getting that undergraduate degree, you made a choice, you made a choice that you wanted to continue your education to become a physician assistant. Take me back to that point where you decided that that was the route and what was going through your head. Joslynn Walsh [00:02:00]: Well, it kind of was an idea that started maybe freshman year. My freshman year looked a little different than most because it was online due to Covid restrictions. So I would say that my freshman year was kind of unique and was very situational, obviously like one of a kind scenario. And unfortunately it kind of closed off a lot of options as far as being able to investigate campuses. So I just think I had to do a lot of research on my own and that included shadowing and trying to do internships, but those weren't available due to Covid. So there was a online event. It was not really a job career event, but I think it was geared more towards like pre med students. And we had a few guest speakers and community members come in to speak on health careers and health professions. Joslynn Walsh [00:02:57]: So there was nursing from local facilities. I think there was a few that came from Hurley and McLaren and they came to talk on what the nursing model is. And then there was a couple of nurse practitioners who had taken the extra step and we got to hear from both of those professions. And then there was an MD who I believe specialized in nephrology. So got to hear his experience going all the way through a doctoral program. And then there was a PA and it was really cool because it was like a panel. You got to hear the difference between each of the. And when somebody is making a decision on what to be, it's not only hard to come to the decision to pick medical, but what in the medical career. Joslynn Walsh [00:03:43]: So that educational panel was really where it all started. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:47]: Now you decided to attend the University of Michigan Flint for your physician assistant program. And there's a number of different physician assistant programs, not only in the state of Michigan, but beyond that. So talk to me about that decision making process for yourself and what was going through your head as you were going through that and what made you ultimately decide to attend U of M Flint? Joslynn Walsh [00:04:09]: Probably the community. I do think the Flint community has a lot to offer. It's not just location and it's convenient access to where I live, but it's more than that. It's the farmer's market, it's the hospitals, it's the community service with like so many outreaches nearby. There's the Michigan Food bank. So close, I mean, you name it. There's so many facilities that are in need. And that's something that's always really appealed to me. Joslynn Walsh [00:04:37]: And our program specifically is fortunate enough to participate with a lot of these outreach facilities where our students are enrolled in giving back to the community. And not a lot of PA programs offer such an opportunity for service learning. Maybe they'll do like a cohort day. Well, they'll go do like a field trip and go spend XYZ hours sorting food together. And it's made two hour event. Our program does. So our students are participants in multiple programs in the community all year. And I think that's something that's important to me having been a volunteer advocate throughout high school and undergrad and continuing that community participant. Joslynn Walsh [00:05:20]: And I think it's so important as future medical providers to understand the community you're working in, understand your population, not just like their needs, but also to be present in the community yourself. So it's one thing to talk, but it's another thing to walk the walk. And I think as future medical providers, whether it's nursing or all the way up to an md, like, it's important to be present in your community. And I think our program does a fantastic job of reinforcing that and actually showing the effort that comes from that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:50]: Well, I appreciate you sharing that. And I know that every student that goes through a process of getting accepted into a graduate program, as you enter into that graduate program, there is a process of transition, because the way that you're educated as an undergraduate student is very different than the way that you're being educated as a graduate student. So as you think about this transition that you've gone through over the last year, in stepping into the graduate program at the University of Michigan, Flint, you found success and you've been able to be successful. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success, and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the journey that you've been on thus far? Joslynn Walsh [00:06:32]: I definitely think it's hard to think about your successes without thinking about your trials and tribulations. So my program started January 2025. So not a quite full year yet, but almost there. And January. It was an interesting start date because I feel like most programs start in the fall and it's kind of all coordinated at the same time. But having that winter start date was already a little odd. And then I bought a house in January that was quite difficult. My timing was not my best. Joslynn Walsh [00:07:00]: I' but that's just how things go. I do think that it was a learning curve with the adjustment of responsibility. My husband serves in the Army National Guard, and he was currently on his officer training status during that time. So I didn't have my support system. So having the newfound, I guess, learning curve of graduate school life and making that adjustment, buying a house, not having that support system, he was floundering in January. It was hard to transition for me, particularly my experience, not to say that that's the experience my colleagues share. I do think it encouraged me to be flexible, which is so important as you navigate that transition time between undergraduate learning is being flexible. And I think that has been my biggest takeaway in not being able to control everything and being able to take that step back. Joslynn Walsh [00:07:53]: And which honestly saying that out loud because Is that not the perfect estimate in the medical field? Being able to be flexible when a thrown at you? It's unusual to being able to provide good patient care, being able to make decisions on the fly. I do think that it opened my eyes. I am ready for this. While it didn't feel like that maybe occurring during the experience, looking back on it, I'm very proud of myself for being able to persevere through those hard circumstances. But flexibility is just crucial in graduate school and making that transition as you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:28]: Entered into a program that is rigorous. Because I know that the physicians assistant program is definitely rigorous. It challenges you in many different ways. And I know that a lot of students that would go through that type of situation may feel a sense of imposter syndrome or self doubt in regard to am I ready for this? Am I good enough? Am I good enough to be here? Talk to me about that. And did you have any point in the last year where that has crept in and how did you handle it? Joslynn Walsh [00:08:57]: So our program, I do think it's a standard that most doctoral programs and PA programs will conduct some, some type of standardized patient simulation, like a standardized patient experience where you have actors who are presented with some type of case and you act out your role, whether that is a PA or a nurse or whatever that position might look like. So I do think that that's pretty standard across all programs. So having that opportunity to it be no risk, you're it's an actor, it is a pretend situation. Getting that opportunity to make those mistakes with no risk is honestly the big opportunity to be able to watch those errors back and see how you would do it differently. But not only that, to actually put the white coat on and to be the one knocking on the door. And it's something so simple that you don't think about whether your experience prior to this was being a medical assistant, whether it was scribing in a doctor's office. We're not the ones coming in all dressed up, knocking on the door, making those introductions, those formal introductions, I'm here to see you today. And those minute things that you don't think about going into school definitely can invoke the imposter syndrome, I think. Joslynn Walsh [00:10:12]: And we get to practice those scenarios, we get to in real time pretend to be the provider. And right now I need to stop using the word pretend because in five short months that I'm going into clinical rotations and I might be the only provider they're seeing in real time. So I practice this almost every time I go to the simulated patient experience, but also our program on something I'm very passionate about and very excited that our PA program does is Clinical Emergence. And our students are participants in Urgent Cares and around the community, the Flint community, a few other local areas. And these Urgent Cares have preceptors who allow us to come in as students and to see patients under the supervision of the urgent care provider. So as a student, having not gone to clinicals yet, I think it's once or twice a month we have the opportunity to go to Urgent Cares and to see patients on our own and then go back in the room with our preceptor. And having those experiences, experiences early on, I think gives me that edge and being able to get over that imposter syndrome a little early on before I get to clinicals. And it's the real deal. Joslynn Walsh [00:11:21]: I continuously, every time I go, I'm wearing my white coat, I'm knocking on the door, I'm introducing myself as a student and that has helped me tremendously assume my position and assume my role and kind of get over that fear. But I think with any medical provider, it's always going to be there in the back of your head. It's always going to be there saying, oh man, this is an emergency situation, I need to go get help. Nope, I am the help. They are here to see me. And you need to almost get over it. And it's blunt, it's hard, it's hard. But you are, you are their last line defense in sometimes, in some cases, sometimes. Joslynn Walsh [00:11:55]: We don't always have a huge medical team and a huge resourceful hospital. Sometimes you're the only provider in a rural medicine office and you are their doctor, for lack of a better term. So I'm very proud of my program for putting us in those positions early. Get over the awkwardness, get over the fear and be able to come out stronger. It's huge. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:16]: You know, as you think about the transition that you went into graduate school, what you've learned thus far, and you think back to before you started, what's something you wish someone had told you before you started graduate school? Joslynn Walsh [00:12:30]: It's hard to think before this started, honestly, like, that's so cheesy, but honestly, this feels like it's gone on forever and I've only ever been in PA school. Was there ever a time before PA school? I don't know, I can't even think that far. But jokes aside, I, I do, I wish I had more opportunity to spend more hands on time with PAs, with COVID and some of those shadowing and turning restrictions, I didn't get to do that as much as I wanted. So I got to do some like over the phone, like interviews and questioning people who were already practicing, which was helpful. But it's totally different being in the clinic and seeing things hand on and in real time. And I wish I would have had that opportunity. To be honest, before my program timing was against me. I do feel like when I was applying and going through the process, but I think if I were to go on, I mean now I'm a cohort mentor. Joslynn Walsh [00:13:22]: So for the upcoming cohort of class of 2028, now we got assigned our mentees and being able to assume that position and being able to maybe instill some advice going on. I do think that having a work life balance is crucial. You can't be in your books 24 7. It's not healthy, it's not maintainable. You want to be a good student, you want to be able to pursue your endeavors and have those hobbies. But to balance it. And you need to find something that works for you, whether it's making a schedule or setting aside specific time for activities or for studying. Setting yourself up for success in that capacity of work life balance, whatever it looks like for you, is huge. Joslynn Walsh [00:14:05]: And I know a lot of speakers have touched on that in the past on the podcast. And it's not wrong and it must not be wrong because people keep encouraging it and reinforcing it. And it's very true. Grad students need to have a retreat, a form of self care, and you need to attend your studies. There's no way around it. There really isn't. You have to find something that is balanced and will get you where you need to be. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:30]: I know you just gave a piece of advice, but I want to leave one more opportunity that if you were thinking about a student that was thinking about graduate school, whether whether it be physician assistant or any other field, what's one piece of advice that you'd want to give to to every student? Joslynn Walsh [00:14:49]: I think if it's regardless of it being medical, regardless of the background, I would say I think it's important to consider whether or not it's necessary. And what I mean by that is I would talk to people who are already in the field and really get the nitty gritty because some people have been extremely successful in respective fields having no master's degree. So it looks different with every profession. So I do think it would be important to have those conversations with people who are already working, who have had successful careers in the career you are desiring because there's nothing more concrete evidence than people who are currently doing the job you want. So in understanding that fields and careers change over time, so maybe requirements that weren't needed 10 years ago maybe are needed now. Maybe there are recruitment officers who are seeing a huge change in degrees and maybe populations saying everybody who we've hired in the last year had a four year degree and went on to get a master's. And maybe the fact of the matter is that's what's needed now for that job. So I think it's one thing to look things up and try to do your own research and it's a whole other thing to talk to people who are currently doing that job. Joslynn Walsh [00:16:06]: So I know that sounds all very vague, but it's, it is sometimes vague. You need to hear it from the horse's mouth sometimes and know what you're getting into. So having those conversations with recruiters, going to job fairs is super important, especially if you are in more mathematics, a STEM field that's a field that's ever changing technology and advancement. So knowing what the most up to date information is super helpful. So I think talking to people who know what they're talking about is definitely helpful for sure. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:38]: Well, Joslyn, I just want to say thank you. I know that you are still working toward the light at the end of the tunnel. It's out there. You're going to be getting into your clinicals here very, very soon. I'm really looking forward to seeing and hearing more about the journey that you're on as you're going through this experience. But I really appreciate you sharing the journey thus far with all of us today. And I truly wish you all the best. Joslynn Walsh [00:17:01]: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:03]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint Eduardo Graduate Programs to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Are you considering graduate school or currently navigating your own academic path? The latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" shines a light on what it really takes to thrive—both academically and personally—through the honest, inspiring journey of Olivia Warrington, a second-year physical therapy student at the University of Michigan, Flint. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, the episode opens by setting the stage for listeners at any point in their graduate school journey. Whether you're just thinking about applying, already accepted, or deep into your studies, this podcast is designed to offer practical tips and relatable stories from students and experts who have been there before. Olivia Warrington shares her winding road from an initial pursuit of veterinary medicine to discovering her passion for physical therapy—thanks in part to a serendipitous conversation with a peer. Her experience is a powerful reminder that sometimes, the most impactful decisions can stem from the simplest moments. A major theme discussed in the episode is the need for self-discovery and adaptability. Olivia Warrington reflects on her transition from undergraduate studies, where she admits to "skating by," to finding success in graduate school through refined study habits and intentional learning. She candidly discusses her process of trial and error, emphasizing that what works for others may not work for you—and that's okay. Her advice? Develop effective study strategies early and continually refine them as you go. The importance of balance comes up repeatedly. Olivia Warrington talks about the challenge of not letting academic demands eclipse family and personal life, recounting how she learned to say yes to life outside of school without sacrificing her grades. Her journey underscores that holistic success in graduate school means making intentional time for both education and cherished relationships. Another highlight is Olivia Warrington's emphasis on building a supportive community. She gives credit to her peer group for providing not only academic support but also critical emotional encouragement. Find people who align with your values and study approach, she suggests, as these relationships can carry you through the toughest moments. To anyone considering graduate school, she offers words of encouragement: have confidence in yourself, explore all opportunities, and don't be afraid to ask questions. Your educational path may have unexpected twists, but with the right mindset and support, success is within reach. Tune in to this episode for honest insights, motivation, and the assurance that you're not alone on your journey to becoming a victor in grad school. Listen now! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week we are on a journey together. I call it a journey because it truly is. As you are thinking about graduate school, you may be at the very beginning where you're just starting to think about this. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:31]: You may have already applied, maybe you got accepted, maybe you've started graduate school. No matter where you are on this continuum, you're on a journey. You're on a journey toward meeting the goals that you've set for yourself. And this podcast is here to be able to help you in that journey. I love being able to have an opportunity every week to sit down with you, to talk to you, to provide you some hints, some tips, some things that you can use to be able to find success in your own journey sooner. That's why every week I bring you different people, different people with different experiences that can help you to be able to think about things in different ways and allow for you to learn from what they've learned in their own educational journey. This week we got another great guest. Olivia Warrington is with us today. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:15]: And Olivia is a second year physical therapy student at the University of Michigan, Flint. And she's had her own educational journey that led her to being here at the University of Michigan, Flint. And I'm excited to be able to talk to her, to learn from her, and to share that with you. Olivia, thanks so much for being here today. Olivia Warrington [00:01:36]: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for having me. Super excited to be here. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:39]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here today and I want to take you back in time because I know that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Detroit Mercy, and. And at some point in that educational journey, whether it was right there at UD Mercy or sometime before that, or sometime in between, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to continue your education. You wanted to become a physical therapist. Bring me back to that point and what was going through your head as you were making that choice for yourself of wanting to continue that education. Olivia Warrington [00:02:13]: I always knew from a young age that I was going to do more school after high school and I was probably gonna have to do more school after. I was probably gonna do some kind of GR program, my childhood dream. And up until my junior year, I was heavily committed to veterinary medicine. And I started that journey. And I got there and I went through. I was still a biology major at that time, so going into my third year, I took five years to do undergrad. And I. I was like, ah, this just doesn't feel right. Olivia Warrington [00:02:45]: This doesn't feel right. I was talking to some kid on the soccer team, and he was like, I'm gonna do physical therapy. I'm like, what is that? What does that entail? So I into it. And I was like, you know what? This sounds like something I could do. This sounds like, you know, I'll just. I'll give it a shot. I'll go shadow. And. Olivia Warrington [00:03:02]: And I loved it. And it's not a super glamorous story by any means. It's just some kid telling me what he was doing. And I. I was like, yeah, I mean, if you're doing it, maybe I'll like it too. And then I stuck with it. And I love it. And I'm so glad that that person told me that he was going to do physical therapy. Olivia Warrington [00:03:17]: That was about it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:18]: So every person goes through a journey after they make that decision to try to figure out, where do I want to go. You got into that fifth year, and you're starting to think about, okay, where am I going to go? What do I need to do? What kind of things do I need to think about? You ultimately decided to attend the University of Michigan Flint. Talk to me about that process for yourself and what ultimately made you decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the right school for you. Olivia Warrington [00:03:46]: Yeah, overall, I was really looking for something to be close to home. Something I could commute and still live at home, save a bit of money, but if I had to stretch, I would. But. So I applied to all the schools in. In Michigan. I. I heard that physical therapy was really competitive. And so I was just like, you know what? I'm just gonna. Olivia Warrington [00:04:03]: I'm gonna apply to everything, and hopefully I land somewhere. And fortunately enough, I actually got into quite a few schools, and I applied to nine, and I got into eight out of the nine. And I was. I was like, whoa. I did not expect that to happen. And I. Michigan and Oakland, Wayne State are kind of like the three commutable schools around me. And U of M Flint does a ton of community outreach, and I love that they can make this huge impact on mostly the neurological patients in. Olivia Warrington [00:04:37]: In Flint with their pro bono clinic and all the exercise classes. I'm sure that Oakland and Wayne State also do those things as well. But I really liked going northbound on 75 instead of southbound. So it seemed like a great fit going and talking to the professors and whatnot. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:52]: Every student that chooses to go to graduate school has to go through a transition. You have to go through transition relearning how to learn in many different ways. Because you're educated in one way as an undergraduate student, you go to graduate school and there's different expectations from your faculty members. So talk to me about that transition for yourself. As you transitioned in and through your first year into your second year of physical therapy school, you found success. So what did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success, and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your life, your graduate school journey thus far? Olivia Warrington [00:05:30]: So, a little background on my undergrad. I. I wasn't a super great student. I. I really struggled. I had a really hard time finding what worked for me. And I just kind of like skated by and eventually it all clicked and it came together and it was good, but I never had any, like, true structure to my studying or to the people I surrounded myself with. And I, I just kind of, I just did it and then I ended up here. Olivia Warrington [00:05:54]: And then in grad school, I had to really figure out. It kind of, it happened. So outcomes and you just have to pick it up and you have to study and you have to do it. So I had to find a great way to study and what personally worked for me because I was looking at other people and I was like, oh, that works for you and you're doing really good. That should work for me too. And that wasn't always the case. So I had to really quickly trial and error, all these different study habits. I found that in my first semester, but I really worked hard in developing those study habits. Olivia Warrington [00:06:24]: And then it more fell into place second semester. And then by the third semester, I was like, this is it. This is how I'm going to study. This is what works for me. And then I was able to refine it from there, and it just works now. And now I'm doing good. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:36]: So talk to me about what did you have to do to be able to find that vibe for yourself? We'll say the mojo that you had to figure out for yourself to be able to get yourself on that right path. Were there specific things that you had to do was a trial and error? Was it something else that really helped you get to that point where you figured out, this is the right place for me? Olivia Warrington [00:06:57]: Yeah, yeah. So what I personally had to do was I. I Didn't know what I could do minimally to maximize my time. So essentially just overstudied. I overstudied for everything and I put a ton of time. I'm, I'm very surprised that I wasn't burnt out after my first semester, but I, after that I was like, something's gotta change before I do hit that burnout. So I picked out the good things and then I held onto those and then I slowly trialed out little things, just keeping the core, that core one good thing, and then added some, some others as I went. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:34]: I share, I appreciate you sharing that. Now you're in your second year and there are definitely things that you had to do as you went along that helped you to become the professional that you are becoming. And I'm sure that there may have been points along the way where that imposter syndrome snuck in. Talk to me about that and what did you have to do to handle that? Olivia Warrington [00:07:57]: So with the imposter syndrome, I don't think it's hit me so much yet. I am just starting my first big clinical rotation, so I'm just starting to feel like I'm like, do I even really know things? Which I'm starting to come around to find out that I do. I'm only on day two, so we'll. I'm still trying to prove to myself, but handling it, I'm still trying to figure out what is working best for me. But so far it's just been making sure I feel over prepared for my clinical rotations. Like when the day, night before or even two weeks prior, I was, I was really like freshening up on my skills and I guess throughout the program when I have had those inklings of imposter syndrome, I have, I've just really dug into my work and really made sure that I feel overprepared for specific situations. But in the long run, I'm still, I'm still really trying to figure that part out. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:48]: So as you've been going through graduate school, there's a lot of times that, where you have to balance things and all of us wear different hats, we have different people vying for our attention, we have different things vying for our attention. And physical therapy as a educational area is a demanding field. It takes a lot of your time and requires a lot of you. So talk to me about balance and how did you find balance within your education in the sense of your schooling, but also balance in work and family and personal responsibilities that you had to maintain throughout graduate school? Olivia Warrington [00:09:26]: This is a great Point and something that I really had a hard time navigating at the beginning. My first semester, it was just. I thought that I only could do school. I only said yes to school. And then it became very easy for me to just say yes to school and say no to everything else. So I. School just became my default. And I started missing out on things. Olivia Warrington [00:09:46]: I started missing out on family events and I have little brothers, and so I. I started missing out on some of their big things. And I really hit a point where I was like, I really need to start prioritizing my time a little differently. I was doing really good my first semester and I was like, what can I. What can I cut to make it a little bit more of a work life balance type deal? So I just committed to saying yes to one thing. One thing. A week was my start. And so I started saying yes. Olivia Warrington [00:10:20]: And I would go, I'd still do work that day or whatever in the morning, but. And then I. I saw the end result at the end of that second semester and I was like, oh, I did about the same. I did the same. So I'm still doing really well. I'm saying yes to family things. And then the next semester, I started saying yes to a couple more things. Just not extending myself over my limit, but still allowing myself to be immersed in my family and be a part of my little brother's life. Olivia Warrington [00:10:48]: And my friends missed me so much and, and still did about the same. And so just a little bit of fluctuation, but I was still getting more family enrichment type deal. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:58]: So as you're thinking about the experience that you've had thus far in your experience in graduate school. And I know that the experience going through graduate school, especially within physical therapy, is a collaborative one in regard to the cohort that you are a part of and that you're with as you go through that experience and that it's important to have those systems of support for yourself throughout the graduate school experience. Talk to me about the relationships that you've been able to build with faculty or peers or students and how that has been able to help you in the journey that you've been on thus far. Olivia Warrington [00:11:39]: Yeah, this one's also really important, in my opinion. At the beginning of grad school, we're all just individuals trying to find our way and trying to find our group. And then you start to slowly see everyone coagulate and you've got these groups. And I just. A couple of girls sought me out and they asked if I wanted to be a part of Their group chat and it just happened to work out so beautifully. The universe really aligned for me that day when I was asked to be. Kind of seemed like they're asking me to be their friend a little bit. And it was, it was very sweet. Olivia Warrington [00:12:12]: And it just so happened that we had very similar study habits and just very a lot of things in common. How we view school, our excitement for learning and so finding that group that really fits what you, how you view school, how you view studying, how you view your career is very important. And I noticed that each of our little groups in the cohort are so vastly different in how we study and what we have in common and all these things. All very great individuals. But these groups, they fit together so beautifully and everyone succeeds in their own way. But with each other and having my friend group, I give them a ton of credit. I don't think I really would have made it this far without them and without their support. But we lean on each other so heavily and making sure that if it isn't really a great fit, we can always find another friend or at least someone to rely heavily on study wise. Olivia Warrington [00:13:11]: But I really rely heavily on them. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:13]: You know, another thing that comes to mind is that as you think back to your education, you think back to the transition into to physical therapy school and you think back to who you were before that. What's something you wish someone had told you before you started graduate school? Olivia Warrington [00:13:32]: I wish someone told me to have confidence. I know that's a simple one. I feel like a lot of people say that. But the confidence factor in my ability and my ability to study and my ability to potentially treat patients one day and to make a great impact in the community. I wish that was hammered, hammered in sooner. Sooner. It would have saved me some trouble in this last year. But yeah, I think that one's simple and sweet confidence. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:00]: And finally, as you think back to your own experience thus far and I know it's still going, but you think about other students that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be going to become a physical therapist or something completely different. What advice would you give to that individual that was thinking about graduate school that would help them find success sooner. Olivia Warrington [00:14:22]: Smaller level study wise. I would find your way of studying in undergrad find that out sooner while you have room for more mistake. It will definitely save a lot of, a lot of hassle your first couple semesters if you have that lockdown sooner rather than later. But also to go and try everything. Go and shadow. Go, go ask as many questions as you can. I wish I. I wish that I. Olivia Warrington [00:14:49]: I did that more. And I go to every in person interview and for. If you're applying and you get an interview to a school, go and look at the campus, talk to the students, go and do a tour on your own. I did that. And I think that was the best thing I could have done is I went and I just. I did it and I went in person and I experienced this whole beautiful process of applying to grad school. It's so hard, but if you can almost romanticize it a little bit and make it this, like, awesome process, it just makes it so much less stressful and so much more of an accomplishment when you get there. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:23]: Well, Olivia, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. Thank you for sharing what you've learned thus far. I know it's not done. I know you still have time in front of you and probably your answers will be shaped over the next year and change as you are going through these intense clinical experiences. You're being put to the test for seeing how all that knowledge coalesces into the practice that you're doing with the patients that you're working with. But I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing all of this, and I truly wish you all the best. Olivia Warrington [00:15:57]: Thank you so much and I hope this information helps someone on their journey. All right. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:03]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, Visit. Visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

Graduate school can be an overwhelming journey, filled with big decisions, self-doubt, and transformation. In the latest episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis welcomes Julia Stulock, Director of Recreational Services at the University of Michigan-Flint, to share her unique path from psychology undergraduate to sports management graduate student. If you're considering grad school, currently navigating your studies, or simply looking for inspiration, Julia's story is a must-hear. She opens up about how her undergraduate experience prepared her well—often in surprising ways—for the academic rigor ahead. As a commuter student at UM-Dearborn, Julia always thought she'd go into research or become a professor, but her campus involvement revealed an entirely new career path in collegiate recreation. This episode underscores the value of staying open to new opportunities and following where your interests lead. One of the central themes is the importance of choosing the right graduate program. Julia encourages prospective students to consider not just the academic aspects, but also location, assistantship opportunities, and overall fit. Her experience at the University of Connecticut was shaped not only by a robust sports management curriculum but by a graduate assistantship that paid for her school and provided a stipend—a key piece of advice for future applicants. Listeners will also appreciate Julia's candid discussion about the challenges of transitioning to graduate study: balancing school and work, adjusting to new expectations, and handling imposter syndrome. She highlights how building connections—through clubs, professional organizations, and classmate relationships—is essential for both emotional support and professional development. Her story is a reminder that community matters, and finding your people can make all the difference during tough times. Julia's advice is both practical and heartfelt: don't be afraid to try something new, take calculated risks, and seek out opportunities, even if they seem outside your comfort zone. Graduate school, she says, is "where I found my passion," and recommends reaching beyond the classroom to maximize your growth. Tune in to this episode to hear Julia's reflections on how graduate school changed her approach to problem-solving and time management, and learn what she wishes someone had told her before she started. For anyone at any stage of their academic journey, Julia's story is a powerful reminder that success often comes from embracing change, building connections, and following your passion. Ready for more inspiring stories and essential advice about thriving in graduate school? Listen to the full episode now! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, I love being able to be on this journey with you because it is a journey not no matter where you are in this continuum of looking at graduate school, maybe you're at the very beginning and just starting to think about, should I do this? Maybe I should, maybe I shouldn't, or maybe you've applied, waiting on that applicant that, that decision from your application, or maybe you just got accepted, or maybe you're in graduate school. No matter where you are, you are on a true journey. And this journey can go in many different directions. But this podcast is here to give you some tools for your toolbox to help you to be able to figure things out ahead of time, to give you some tools for the toolbox to help you figure out how to find success sooner. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:03]: Because that's what we all want. We all want to be successful in this academic journey that you're on. And whether it be from me, from a person in charge of graduate programs, I want all of my graduate students to be successful in this journey that they're pursuing. But personally, you do, too. And that's why every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can share some of their own experiences in going through graduate school that can help you along the way. Today we got another great guest with us. Julia Stulock is with us. And Julia is the Director of Recreational Services at the University of Michigan, Flint, and she did her undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Dearborn and then went on from there. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:46]: So I'm really excited to be able to talk to her about her own experiences and to have her share that with you. Julia, thanks so much for being here today. Julia Stulock [00:01:53]: Yeah, really happy to be here and talk through my grad experience. Even though it was a little ways ago, it would be fun to walk down memory lane. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:00]: I'm really excited to be able to talk to you. And I know, as I mentioned, that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Dearborn, and you got a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology there. And at some point, at some point during that undergraduate experience, you made a decision to continue on to get a graduate degree. Bring me back to that point and talk to me about what was going through your head. That made you decide that grad school was the next step? Julia Stulock [00:02:27]: I think for me, because as you mentioned psychology major, I actually got my minor in stats. I always thought I was going to go to grad school. Whether it was because I wanted to become a professor or do research was the initial plan. I knew I'd have to get a degree beyond my bachelor's to do that. However, through my involvement on campus, I was involved in a club sport. By about my junior year, I started to realize through talking with other club sport leaders at other institutions, I was like, oh, there is a whole career path here in collegiate recreation that Dearborn doesn't have like a full recreation department. It's part of athletics. So I didn't realize, like, oh, this is like a whole separate department on some campuses. Julia Stulock [00:03:09]: So it was about halfway through my junior year that I realized I do still want to go to grad school, but I'm going to go for sports management instead of psychology like I originally planned. Because I saw this as an opportunity to keep doing something I love, but I need to get a degree in it to make that connection happen for my path. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:29]: So you decided on moving in a different path from psychology and moving a little bit of a different direction. So as you were making that decision for yourself, there are plenty of different programs that are out there in the area that you chose to study. And I'm sure that you went through your own process of exploring different programs, looking out there to determine what was the best fit for you. So talk to me about that process for yourself. I know that you ultimately decided to go to the University of Connecticut for their Master of Arts in Sports management. So talk to me about the process you went through to be able to identify the programs that you were considering and then what made you ultimately decide that the University of Connecticut was the right fit for you? Julia Stulock [00:04:15]: So I grew up in Michigan. I was a commuter student to Dearborn. A big part, I will admit for my search was I wanted to experience a different place. So I purposely looked only at out of state schools. I did my research online by looking through different rating website to see who had the best sports management degrees out there. There's also recreation management, which isn't as common as sports management. I didn't even know for sure that I wanted to work in collegiate recreation. Honestly, at that point I just knew I wanted to work in sports. Julia Stulock [00:04:48]: So I thought maybe that would look like an athletic department and CIA sports or possibly recreation. So I just was like, sports Management Recreation looked at the best programs out there. Also visited campuses. I was lucky enough to have friends scattered throughout the country that I could kind of go visit and stay with them and then go visit campus. So I looked anywhere from West Virginia University to University of Texas to a small school in Massachusetts, and I narrowed it down to, like, about my top six or seven to apply to. And as I was doing that, I also learned that there are these things called graduate assistantships or teaching assistantships at some schools. And that's ultimately what helped me decide on the University of Connecticut. I was accepted to a couple other programs, but I was offered a graduate assistantship in club sports at the University of Connecticut. Julia Stulock [00:05:38]: And they helped pay for my school and also gave me a stipend. That sealed the deal. There was another school I was considering. I'm like, oh, wait, you're going to pay me. I will absolutely go there. And they also had a great program to join for their sports management. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:52]: For every student, as they're transitioning from an undergraduate degree into a graduate degree, there is a definite transition that happens. There's a transition in the way that you're taught, the way that you're. The expectations that faculty have of you. And every person has to go through their own journey to be able to understand what that means for them and how to manage that situation for themselves. So as you were transitioning into graduate school, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And as you were going through that graduate school experience, what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout graduate school? Julia Stulock [00:06:32]: I think, thankfully, my undergraduate experience, I feel like, really prepared me very well for grad school. That, in fact, I had the same textbook for one of my statistics classes that I used in undergrad, and it was the same one. I'm like, I'm repeating a class here. Hold on. So I was really thankful for that, that Dearborn prepared me really well. And I think some of those changes you see going into grad school, right, is like you have these closer relationships with faculty who have smaller class sizes. And again, because Dearborn, just like Flint, has some of those smaller class sizes, I was already used to talking to faculty, not TAs, full professors. And I wasn't afraid of those conversations. Julia Stulock [00:07:11]: So I think that really set me up for success, that I didn't feel weird. Like, I had classes with 12 people. Our class size at UConn, my sports law class was small. We had a lot of serious, like, you know, detailed discussions. You couldn't not participate in those. So I think not being afraid to talk to your faculty is a big key to success. From my experience, just doing well in your undergrad classes, paying attention, because you never know when it might overlap or just it's building on top of something in grad school that it might feel like, well, why do I need this? I'm going into sports management. Statistics was required. Julia Stulock [00:07:49]: There were two required classes in grad school. I still had to take it. So not just assuming you won't need it again was really important. And I think one of the bigger challenges for me transitioning to grad school was that work school balance. Because of my graduate assistantship, I was working a lot of hours there, and that proved to be challenging in terms of making sure I was setting aside enough time, getting enough sleep. I was also not commuting any longer. So, like, being away from home and family, and it was more just about building those bonds so that you would have the support system. So, like, friends joining a club on campus so that I would not just be on my own and I had those support systems in place far away from home was really important because I can actually remember thinking at the end of my first semester, I would not have stayed at UConn unless I had joined the running club there, because that's how I made my friends. Julia Stulock [00:08:43]: That's how I felt like I belonged somewhere. That was really important because I think I would have left. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:48]: You know, I hear from a lot of graduate students that beyond the. Especially if they go away from home, beyond the separation anxiety and some of the other anxieties that they run into, there's this feeling of, am I meant to be here? Am I good enough? Can I live up to the expectations? Which comes down to what people call the imposter syndrome. And I guess as you think back to your own experience, how did that imposter syndrome or self doubt impact you and how did you handle it? Julia Stulock [00:09:15]: Yes, there were times, like I mentioned, that first semester was just hard, learning all these new things. I was in student affairs for the first time as well, because I had been an intern in the athletic department at Dearborn, which at the time, I didn't even know anything about student affairs. I don't know if we had a division. I had no idea what I was doing. There was a lot of learning about student development that, like, yeah, it made me go, like, what did I sign up for? Am I supposed to be here? Is this supposed to be this hard? And trying to think of, like, how did I overcome that? I think it was more just like talking with my classmates because a lot of us had graduate assistantships across campus. And it was reassuring to hear that other people had those same thoughts, that it wasn't just me. Well, and everyone can't not belong here, right? There was that common thread of, wow, we feel like this is a lot. And also just hearing sometimes stories of like, wow, I thought I had a hard day, but theirs was harder. Julia Stulock [00:10:11]: Just commiserating with each other was really helpful. And then overall, just being able to reflect on, like, this is just a part of growth. It is difficult and accepting that that comes with it. And again, those connection pieces of just finding people you connect with, where I felt like I really found my group towards the end of my first year. And that made the second year feel like I belong because I, I just had those connections built in where when you're the new kid, it's really hard to feel connected because you, you. It takes time to build those connections. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:40]: One thing that comes to mind, you know, earlier you talked about when you were looking at different programs, you looked at sports management, you looked at recreation management. You're currently in more of a recreational services, recreation management type of role at the University of Michigan, Flint. If you look back and I know your graduate degree was a, a number of years back, as you mentioned at the beginning, but if you had to do it, would you choose the same program or would you choose a different path? Why or why not? Julia Stulock [00:11:07]: I would do it all over again. For me, at the time when I was trying to decide between the two paths, it was more out of. I just didn't know enough about either one to decide for sure. And I knew I have two small kids. I knew that I wanted to have a family one day, or at least I hoped I would. And I saw the lack of work life balance, at least from my counterparts and my classmates in the athletic world. The amount of late nights and weekends and the hours like, I mean, not that I had a cakewalk, but man, theirs just seemed a lot more difficult. And I saw that, that just seemed to be a common thread across athletic departments and that didn't fit with what I was looking for. Julia Stulock [00:11:49]: I still have friends to this day that work in that field and they love it. And you've probably asked them, they wouldn't do anything different either. But for me, I knew I was looking for something that had more of that be balance. That wouldn't mean I was working every night and every weekend. So I would absolutely do it again. I would go to UConn again as well, because I will say I was challenged, but I grew a lot. I learned a lot. It is where, as I mentioned, I was introduced to student affairs and it is where I realized I really had this passion for collegiate recreation and that it could be something for everyone and not just the best of the best of athletes among us. Julia Stulock [00:12:28]: That it can be for everyone the best of the best and those just looking to have fun or to start a fitness journey. I was lucky enough to be a part of founding a governing body for a club sport which really opened my eyes to that too of just like the impact it can make on student experience and lifelong things too, like finding a partner or lifelong friends. And that's why it still keeps me here, is that I found that passion so I would not change a thing at all. And glad for the experience I had. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:59]: I know you mentioned earlier the importance of that running club as well as some finding that group for yourself. And sometimes students kind of buckle down and they think, especially with being more and more programs being remote from a campus, sometimes it's not always that easy to make those connections. I guess as you think back to the experience that you had and you were in a program that was in person and on a campus, talk to me about that connection and building those connections and the importance of being engaged beyond the classroom and what that did for you as a student. Julia Stulock [00:13:34]: Me being engaged outside the classroom is what helped me find my passion and my career path. But when thinking specifically about grad school. Right. I mentioned that running club because that was my in person connection. However, it helped me expand outside of our campus because this governing body that I mentioned is called nerca, it's National Intercollegiate Running Club Association. At the time I was the membership coordinator. So I got to talk with club leaders from across across the country about their running clubs and make friends and connections that way and learn about club sports that way. About how all the different ways that their departments run and how you know what type of support they had or didn't have. Julia Stulock [00:14:15]: And that was equally as important to my development and growth as what I was getting on campus. Because again, I still have those friendships to this day, decades later that are so meaningful in terms of again the impact we're making or just having a friend that you could call up somewhere and say like what do you think about this? Or what are you seeing? Because maybe they work in my field. So those. I think it's more just about finding like you mentioned that connection outside of the classroom. Whether it's a student org on campus, maybe it's volunteering with a group somewhere in your interest in your field, maybe it's reaching out to a professional to pick their brain and you end up finding a great mentor. You have to reach beyond that classroom because I don't know, for me personally, it's just where I felt like I got the most growth. Because as much as you can try to make a project in a class mirror the real world, it's never going to quite get it right fully if it's just a short couple week project. But that's where I got the most meaningful lessons and connections, was through finding those groups and connections outside of the class. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:21]: You know, as you think about your graduate school experience and what you're doing today, how did graduate school change the way that you think work or approach problems? Julia Stulock [00:15:32]: I think probably more just on the proactive side because I mentioned that the time management piece I had to learn between balancing school and work was just more than I had experienced before. So it was more this forward thinking and planning and whether it's writing out your assignments in your planner or planning out what you have going on at work so you can be ahead of it. For me, I am a planner. I like to think ahead on things. I want agenda bullet points in advance. And that's not just because I'm trying to get ahead of the curve. It's so that I can have time to problem solve. Because problem solving on the fly might not result in the best end result than if you can go, oh, I have a problem, but I have two weeks to solve it instead of two hours. Julia Stulock [00:16:17]: So, yeah, it's more that just. I think it's that pre planning and thinking, okay, what do I have coming up? Is there anything I can do now to help myself so that I don't get myself in a pickle? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:28]: And as you think back to grad school and you think back to the journey that you went on throughout your time there, what's something that you wish that someone had told you before you started grad school? Julia Stulock [00:16:39]: I really wish someone had explained to me what graduate assistantships were. I really feel like I stumbled into what I got and I was very lucky. Such a good experience. But golly, like what? Oh, I just wish I had understood. I thought they just paid for school. I didn't understand. It came with a stipend until I literally got my offer letter in the mail. I went, oh, they pay me to. Julia Stulock [00:17:02]: I had no idea. And I think that would have changed. I don't even think I know it would have changed how I approached my search because I realized that there were some programs that there's one in particular, I'll leave them unnamed. I didn't realize that basically you need to have a GA position in order to get into their program, but I didn't know they existed. And they start those search processes so early. Like it could have been like they open applications in November, December. I had no idea. And it would have really helped me because I could have gotten in my. Julia Stulock [00:17:31]: I thought it was you applied for school and then you applied for the graduate assistantships or the teaching assistantships. So just someone that could have helped explain that that is there and can help potentially pay for grad school and maybe inform where you go if you're willing to go where the money is and you have open doors where you're willing to go, that would have been immensely helpful. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:52]: Finally, as you think back to that entire experience and you think about other people that are considering going to graduate school for themselves, what are some tips that you might offer others beyond what you just said about the graduate assistantship that might help students find success sooner? Julia Stulock [00:18:08]: Don't be afraid to try something new. I know it sounds cliche, but truly, whether you're going to grad school full time or you're working and going to grad school, you might not have another opportunity to take a risk that doesn't have really far reaching implications if it doesn't work out. So like waiting few years after you have your master's and going like, I really, oh, I really wish I'd try that. I'd have to leave my job to do that. Don't be afraid to take that risk in grad school if you're not sure. Like I was talking about like athletics, recreation, what do I want to do? Right? I started talking to people and realized, oh, maybe that's not what I want to do. Or maybe you apply for an internship to get more information experience in somewhere or to just shadow someone. Don't have to win an internship, just shadow someone. Julia Stulock [00:18:58]: If you're not sure, take that risk and reaching out or trying something new because maybe you'll find out something isn't for you or maybe you'll find that new passion. You're like, this helps me decide where I want to go. Because the more committed you can be to a goal, I think the sooner you can find success because when you have that full commitment, interest and passion, you can find that trifecta. You'll find success because work will feel less like work and more like fun, hopefully. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:26]: Well, Julie, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. Thank you for sharing all that you learned in your own experience, and I truly wish you all the best. Julia Stulock [00:19:34]: Thank you so much. It was my pleasure. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:36]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning opportunity, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgrad office at umflint. Eduardo.